1 10 55 Person An individual. Birth Date 1954 Birthplace Dalkeith, ON, Canada Schools Attended BA University of Ottawa, 1971-1974 (Literature) Bachelor of Education, University of Ottawa, 1975 MBA/LLB, University of Ottawa, 1978-1985 Certificate d'Etudes Superieure, St Paul's, 2015-2016 Career professional Occupation Senior Public Servant Ethnicity French Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goulet, Helene Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gigi Kaur Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Helene Goulet Location The location of the interview Ottawa (over Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:11.982 --> 0:0:19.282 Gigi Kaur OK, ça marche parfait c'est bon, OK, alors je vais commencer avec Hélène Goulet. OK, it works perfectly, it's good, OK, so I'll start with Hélène Goulet. 0:0:19.292 --> 0:0:21.92 Gigi Kaur Goulet, vous allez bien? Goulet, how are you? 0:0:21.732 --> 0:0:23.72 Hélène Goulet Oui, merci vous-même. Yes, thank you yourself. 0:0:23.622 --> 0:0:24.742 Gigi Kaur Toujours. Always Always 0:0:25.92 --> 0:0:33.182 Gigi Kaur Alors aujourd'hui, on fait une petite entrevue pour mon cours d'histoire, historiens, craft pour comprendre les francophones qu'ils étaient là. So today, we're doing a little interview for my history class, historians, craft to understand the francophones they were there. 0:0:34.2 --> 0:1:4.672 Gigi Kaur Pendant les 4 vingts, les 1970 que je vais faire un petit intro, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée au toi, une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés les uns ou l'autre. During the 4 twenties, the 1970s, which I'm going to give a little intro to, cultural historians argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a car-centric consumer culture created a North American popular culture more integrated with the bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related to each other. 0:1:5.42 --> 0:1:14.632 Gigi Kaur La première question que je vous demanderai il y a, il y avait moyen d'appareils électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970? The first question I'll ask you is, how many electronic devices were there in Canadian society in the 1970s? 0:1:14.962 --> 0:1:23.752 Gigi Kaur Comment ôter, structure votre temps libre est que vous faisiez les étudiants de l'université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années quatre-vingt? How to remove, structure your free time is what you were doing University of Ottawa students for fun in the eighties? 0:1:24.2 --> 0:1:26.72 Gigi Kaur 1970. 1970 0:1:26.742 --> 0:1:35.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais, d'accord, ça m'a fait un peu rire la question, parce que je me suis rendu compte que je n’étais pas peut-être pas typique complètement. Yeah, okay, I kind of laughed at the question, because I realized that maybe I wasn't completely typical. 0:1:37.282 --> 0:1:47.422 Hélène Goulet Les dans l'État libre, qui étaient assez peu nombreux finalement, parce que moi je venais d'un petit village, j'arrivais à Ottawa, je ne connaissais pas la ville. Those in the Free State, who were actually quite few in number, because I came from a small village, I'd just arrived in Ottawa, I didn't know the city. 0:1:48.812 --> 0:1:59.152 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus aussi, chez dans la famille, dans la famille, puis j'aidais aussi dans cette famille alors euh. And I lived off-campus too, with my family, in the family, and I also helped out in the family, so um. 0:2:1.82 --> 0:2:6.882 Hélène Goulet Entre les cours, on était un petit groupe, moi je faisais un bac en littérature française et anglaise. Between classes, we were a small group, and I was doing a bac in French and English literature. 0:2:7.852 --> 0:2:20.102 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis liée d'amitié avec ohh 43 ou 45 personnes avec qui on se retrouvait presque tous dans les mêmes cours. And then I made friends with ohh 43 or 45 people with whom we almost all ended up in the same classes. 0:2:20.612 --> 0:2:26.882 Hélène Goulet Et puis entre les cours, on allait souvent à la cafétéria prendre un café, puis jaser. Between classes, we'd often go to the cafeteria for a coffee and a chat. 0:2:27.172 --> 0:2:29.442 Hélène Goulet Fait, il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient. In fact, there was a lot going on. 0:2:31.432 --> 0:2:35.252 Hélène Goulet Et puis moi, Bin les week-ends, je travaillais. And well, I worked on weekends. 0:2:36.792 --> 0:2:38.172 Hélène Goulet Euh la première année? Uh, the first year? 0:2:39.182 --> 0:2:41.352 Hélène Goulet Ouais et weekend. Yeah and weekend. 0:2:41.392 --> 0:2:48.882 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à travailler, je ne me souviens pas si c'était en première année ou en 2e année université, mais je travaillais jeudi soir. I started working, I don't remember if it was my first year or my 2nd year at university, but I worked Thursday evenings. 0:2:48.892 --> 0:2:50.632 Hélène Goulet vendredi soir, samedi, toute la journée. Friday evening, Saturday, all day. 0:2:51.652 --> 0:2:55.832 Hélène Goulet Euh, fait que mes activités sociales étaient reliées. Uh, that my social activities were related. 0:2:58.152 --> 0:3:15.542 Hélène Goulet Je veux un copain la première année que je fais, que j'ai eu un moment donné des copains, des copains, c'est que ma vie sociale était plus autour d’une seule personne ou la famille avec qui J’habitais, qui était ma tante et mes cousins, c'était surtout ça. I want a boyfriend the first year that I do, that I had at some point buddies, buddies, it's that my social life was more around one person or the family that I lived with, which was my aunt and my cousins, it was mostly that. 0:3:15.582 --> 0:3:22.882 Hélène Goulet Je ne, je ne buvais pas d'alcool, je probablement parce que je ne peux pas, je ne peux pas digérer l'alcool. I don't, I don't drink alcohol, I probably don't because I can't, I can't digest alcohol. 0:3:23.782 --> 0:3:38.112 Hélène Goulet Et puis j’ai-je, j'étais très consciente qu'il y avait beaucoup de consommation de marijuana autour de moi, surtout avec des étudiants qui étaient dans les en littérature, c'était encore plus un peu plus épié, plus. And then I, I was very aware that there was a lot of marijuana use around me, especially with students who were in literature, it was even more a little more spied on, more. 0:3:39.752 --> 0:3:43.2 Hélène Goulet Mais moi, je n’ai jamais consommé, j'étais très plate. But I never used, I was very flat. 0:3:45.452 --> 0:3:53.922 Gigi Kaur Moi, moi j'ai trouvé que vous n’êtes pas plate, vous êtes très discipliné, vous à vos affaires, parce que moi je suis restée à la même personne que la semaine. I've found that you're not flat, you're very disciplined, you go about your business, because I've stayed with the same person all week. 0:3:52.532 --> 0:3:55.392 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je suis très disciplinée, c'est vrai. Yeah, I'm very disciplined, that's true. 0:3:53.932 --> 0:3:55.802 Gigi Kaur Différence, c'est que je bois un peu, mais. The difference is that I drink a little, but... 0:3:56.622 --> 0:4:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis mes cours souvent mes cours étaient-elles le matin, j'essaierai d'avoir mes cours concentrés parce que j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus. Yeah, then my classes often my classes were them in the morning, I'll try to have my classes focused because I lived off campus. 0:4:5.552 --> 0:4:22.42 Hélène Goulet Alors quand je retournais à la maison, je retournais pour le reste de la journée, puis j'étais ma tante était monoparental, avec 3 enfants, dont le plus jeune avait 6h, alors j'étais à la maison pour recevoir l'enfant après l'école. So, when I went home, I went home for the rest of the day, then I was my aunt was a single parent, with 3 children, the youngest of whom was 6, so I was home to receive the child after school. 0:4:23.142 --> 0:4:33.712 Hélène Goulet Et puis, pour commencer à préparer le, le repas du soir pour lui aider à préparer le repas du soir fait que c'est un peu ça ma vie, c'est mes parents étaient à l'extérieur d'Ottawa, alors. And then, to start preparing the, the evening meal to help him prepare the evening meal that's kind of my life, my parents were outside Ottawa, so. 0:4:35.462 --> 0:4:44.372 Hélène Goulet Ça m'arrivait le dimanche matin, de prendre le train, puis aller passer la journée avec mes parents puis revenir le soir avec quelqu'un, mais pas toutes les semaines, pas toutes les semaines. Sometimes on Sunday mornings, I'd take the train, spend the day with my parents and then come back in the evening with someone, but not every week, not every week. 0:4:47.372 --> 0:4:51.142 Gigi Kaur Parlant des transports, est-ce que vous étiez très loin de l’école? Speaking of transportation, were you very far from the school? 0:4:51.152 --> 0:5:4.192 Gigi Kaur Ça prenait beaucoup de temps parce que je sais que aujourd hui le transport ça prend beaucoup de temps quand même, n’y a pas changé, n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est que je voulais savoir pendant les 70 est-ce que le transport était plus vite plus long? It took a lot of time because I know that today transportation takes a lot of time anyway, it hasn't changed, there's not much that has changed, but I wanted to know during the 70's was transportation faster longer. 0:5:4.492 --> 0:5:6.252 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que c'était compliqué? Was it complicated? 0:5:6.262 --> 0:5:8.192 Gigi Kaur C'était comment votre expérience ou pas? What was your experience like? 0:5:9.842 --> 0:5:16.262 Hélène Goulet C'était un bus que je prenais très près de la maison à 3 blocs, 3 ou 4 blocs, et j'habite à Vanier. It was a bus that I took very close to home, 3 or 4 blocks away, and I live in Vanier. 0:5:17.232 --> 0:5:26.2 Hélène Goulet Et puis c'est elle te bus numéro 3 à l'époque, c'est plus la même chose maintenant, puis il m'amenait à la rue rideau et Dalhousie. And then it was the number 3 bus back then, it's not the same now, and it took me to Rideau and Dalhousie. 0:5:26.12 --> 0:5:33.12 Hélène Goulet Je crois, alors après ça, je marchais pour aller au campus, alors je marchais, ça me faisait quand même marcher un peu. I think, so after that, I'd walk to campus, so I'd walk, it still made me walk a bit. 0:5:33.52 --> 0:5:34.152 Hélène Goulet Ce qui était très bien. Which was fine. 0:5:34.622 --> 0:5:39.572 Hélène Goulet Euh que c'est un seul bus, ça ne prenait pas très longtemps parce que ce n’est pas très loin. It's only one bus, so it didn't take very long because it's not very far. 0:5:43.982 --> 0:5:44.142 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:5:39.582 --> 0:5:47.432 Hélène Goulet Finalement, c'est peut-être 10, 12-15 minutes, je ne sais pas fait que d'après moi je pouvais me rendre si l'autobus arrivait à l'heure. In the end, it's maybe 10, 12-15 minutes, I don't know, but I think I could make it if the bus arrived on time. 0:5:47.782 --> 0:5:49.792 Hélène Goulet C'était une question de 30 minutes. It was a 30-minute question. 0:5:51.452 --> 0:5:54.382 Hélène Goulet Total, c'est 30 35 minutes avec la marche. Total: 30-35 minutes with walking. 0:5:59.792 --> 0:6:8.402 Gigi Kaur Vous avez dit que vous étiez, avec votre copain, votre famille, et cetera, mais vous avez une vie plus personnelle que sociale à UOttawa. You said you were, with your boyfriend, your family, et cetera, but you have more of a personal life than a social one in UOttawa. 0:6:8.892 --> 0:6:9.102 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:6:8.982 --> 0:6:13.42 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez assisté à des spectacles musicaux pendant vos années d'université? Did you attend any musical performances during your university years? 0:6:13.462 --> 0:6:18.12 Hélène Goulet Oui, beaucoup, j'ai fait ça beaucoup parce qu'on a eu, on avait la boîte à chansons. Yes, a lot, I did that a lot because we had, we had the song box. 0:6:18.142 --> 0:6:21.552 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas si ça s'appelait comme ça, mais il y avait. I don't know if it was called that, but there it was. 0:6:21.562 --> 0:6:41.482 Hélène Goulet Il y avait plusieurs petits immeubles à l'époque gris, des petites maisons grises, comme on voit encore sur le campus, puis dans c’est un de ces immeubles-là, je ne me souviens pas lequel, il y avait un petit, une boîte à chanson au sous-sol, alors j'ai vu déjà qui sont décédés maintenant. There were several small gray buildings at the time, small gray houses, as you can still see on campus, and then in one of these buildings, I don't remember which one, there was a small, a song box in the basement, so I've already seen who's passed away now. 0:6:41.492 --> 0:6:49.342 Hélène Goulet Comme Georges Adoré, québécois qui était très connu à l'époque, Claude Léveillé, Jean-Pierre Ferland. Like Georges Adoré, a Quebecker who was very well known at the time, Claude Léveillée, Jean-Pierre Ferland. 0:6:49.752 --> 0:6:53.482 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu ces gens-là probablement tous à la boîte à chanson. I've seen these people probably all at the song box. 0:6:53.852 --> 0:6:55.972 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu Georges Moustaki I saw Georges Moustaki 0:6:56.222 --> 0:7:1.742 Hélène Goulet Ce sont des heures qui venaient d'ouvrir, puis les étudiants pouvaient y aller pour 2$ dans le balcon. These were hours that had just opened, then students could go for $2 in the balcony. 0:7:3.282 --> 0:7:5.312 Hélène Goulet Alors j'ai fait ça à quelques reprises aussi. So, I did that a few times too. 0:7:7.562 --> 0:7:17.292 Hélène Goulet J'en ai peut-être vu d'autres, mais là, ça m'échappe, mais je recherche beaucoup de la musique en français parce que Ben, j'ai, j'ai d'abord j'ai grandi dans une famille francophone. I may have seen others, but it escapes me, but I look for French music a lot because Ben, I grew up in a French-speaking family. 0:7:17.712 --> 0:7:23.572 Hélène Goulet Et puis la télé était quand même quelque chose de quand j'étais adolescente, moi je suis naze. And then TV was still something of when I was a teenager, I'm lame. 0:7:23.582 --> 0:7:24.652 Hélène Goulet 54. 54 0:7:25.422 --> 0:7:28.642 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais adolescente, la télé, ce n’est pas très vieux encore. When I was a teenager, TV wasn't very old yet. 0:7:29.182 --> 0:7:33.542 Hélène Goulet Il y avait même la plupart des gens n’avaient même pas une télé en couleur, c'était noir et blanc. Most people didn't even have a color TV, it was all black and white. 0:7:34.112 --> 0:7:40.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis fait que j'écoutais beaucoup les émissions culturelles francophones comme jeunesse d'aujourd'hui. I also listened to a lot of French-language cultural programs like Youth Today. 0:7:40.922 --> 0:7:47.482 Hélène Goulet Bon fait que je fais que j'étais beaucoup plus axé sur la musique francophone, je connaissais les Beatles et Rolling Stones. The fact that I was much more focused on French music, I knew the Beatles and Rolling Stones. 0:7:47.492 --> 0:7:59.972 Hélène Goulet J'avais qu'ils étaient, je connaissais certaines chansons, mais euh, ce n’était pas mon gars, tu, mon gout est toujours en français, même si c'était complètement bilingue, parce que j'ai grandi dans un village. I knew that they were, I knew certain songs, but uh, it wasn't my guy, you, my taste is always in French, even if it was completely bilingual, because I grew up in a village. 0:8:1.542 --> 0:8:6.342 Hélène Goulet Complètement bilingue n'est parents, avaient magasin général, alors j'ai grandi complètement bilingue. Completely bilingual is not parents, had general store, so I grew up completely bilingual. 0:8:7.912 --> 0:8:13.692 Hélène Goulet Ouais, mais j'ai toujours travaillé fort pour conserver la langue, ouais. Yeah, but I've always worked hard to keep the language, yeah. 0:8:14.2 --> 0:8:20.472 Gigi Kaur Et parlons de la langue française est ce qu'il y avait de la difficulté à conserver la langue française à UOttawa? And speaking of the French language, was it difficult to preserve the French language at UOttawa? 0:8:20.482 --> 0:8:22.672 Gigi Kaur Ça, c'était plus Intéressant. That was more interesting. 0:8:27.482 --> 0:8:34.992 Hélène Goulet Y avait, il y avait beaucoup plus de francophones proportionnellement à l'époque, j'ai l'impression, c'était très bilingue à l'époque. There were, there were many more Francophones proportionally at the time, I have the impression, it was very bilingual at the time. 0:8:36.212 --> 0:8:42.692 Hélène Goulet Ce que j'ai remarqué parce que je suis retournée à l'université d'Ottawa à quelques reprises étudier plus tard. Which I noticed because I went back to the University of Ottawa a few times to study later. 0:8:42.972 --> 0:8:55.772 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'ai remarqué qu'il y avait eu un glissement que y a beaucoup d'étudiants étrangers qui ne parlent pas français, alors il y a eu un glissement vers l'anglais beaucoup plus. And then I noticed that there had been a shift that there are a lot of foreign students who don't speak French, so there's been a shift towards English a lot more. 0:8:56.502 --> 0:8:59.942 Hélène Goulet D'après moi, et je pense que j'ai lu là-dessus aussi là. In my opinion, and I think I've read about it there too. 0:9:0.292 --> 0:9:6.512 Hélène Goulet Mais à l'époque, on entendait parler français partout, c'est y avait beaucoup de la part des franco-ontariens. But back then, you could hear French being spoken everywhere, so there was a lot of Franco-Ontarian involvement. 0:9:7.832 --> 0:9:12.812 Hélène Goulet Euh aller à l'université d'Ottawa parce que, à l'université de Sudbury, n’existait pas là laurentienne. Uh go to the University of Ottawa because, at the University of Sudbury, didn't exist there. 0:9:12.822 --> 0:9:14.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu’elle n’existait pas à l'époque. I don't think it existed back then. 0:9:20.892 --> 0:9:21.302 Gigi Kaur Ah ouais? Oh Yea? 0:9:15.612 --> 0:9:26.532 Hélène Goulet Et puis on ne serait pas allé au Québec parce qu'on n'avait pas fait le cégep, alors les gens du Québec Fini en Ontario fait que y avait beaucoup de francophones. And then we wouldn't have gone to Quebec because we hadn't gone to CEGEP, so people from Quebec ended up in Ontario because there were a lot of francophones there. 0:9:27.592 --> 0:9:29.512 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très intéressant. OK I find that very interesting. 0:9:26.652 --> 0:9:30.512 Hélène Goulet Ouais toute façon ouais. Yeah anyway yeah. 0:9:35.942 --> 0:9:36.402 Hélène Goulet Hum. Hum 0:9:40.22 --> 0:9:40.222 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:31.592 --> 0:9:40.592 Gigi Kaur Parce que c'est tellement vrai, on a beaucoup de élèves internationaux qui vient de partout maintenant fait qu'on voit de plus en plus en anglais, c'est clair. Because it's so true, we have a lot of international students from all over the world now, so we're seeing more and more in English, that's for sure. 0:9:40.602 --> 0:9:42.692 Gigi Kaur C'est évident que je trouve ça intéressant encore. Obviously, I still find it interesting. 0:9:42.702 --> 0:9:44.42 Gigi Kaur À l'époque, c'était plus francophone. Back then, it was more francophone. 0:9:44.512 --> 0:9:44.822 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:45.732 --> 0:9:53.872 Gigi Kaur Parlant de des pays, des cultures, et cetera, les 40s, les 70, toujours 80, juste pourquoi? Speaking of countries, cultures, et cetera, the 40s, the 70s, still the 80s, just why? 0:9:57.992 --> 0:9:58.442 Hélène Goulet Oui. Yes 0:9:53.882 --> 0:9:58.452 Gigi Kaur Mais les 70Y avait eu la guerre de Vietnam. But the 70Y had the Vietnam War. 0:9:58.872 --> 0:10:1.972 Gigi Kaur Alors, qu'est-ce que vous avez pensé sur la gare de l'événement? So, what did you think of the event station? 0:10:1.982 --> 0:10:5.112 Gigi Kaur Puis, est-ce que vous étiez sur les, les manifestations et cetera? Then, were you on the demonstrations and so on? 0:10:5.562 --> 0:10:9.782 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, j'ai, je n’ai jamais été une personne qui manifestait facilement. No, I've, I've, I've never been a person who protests easily. 0:10:9.832 --> 0:10:14.702 Hélène Goulet J'ai peut-être manifesté de nous 2 fois dans ma vie. I may have manifested from us twice in my life. 0:10:14.712 --> 0:10:23.542 Hélène Goulet Je suis, c'est je ne sais pas vraiment mon bag parce que je trouve que beaucoup de polarisation dans les manifestations. I'm, I don't really know what my bag is because I find that there's a lot of polarization in the demonstrations. 0:10:23.552 --> 0:10:27.22 Hélène Goulet Puis je j'ai tendance à voir les choses de façon beaucoup plus nuancée. Then I tend to see things in a much more nuanced way. 0:10:28.292 --> 0:10:34.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, je ne me souviens pas d'avoir eu, je suis certaine qu'on en a parlé, mais je ne m’en souviens pas vraiment. Uh, I don't remember having, I'm sure we talked about it, but I don't really remember. 0:10:34.652 --> 0:10:40.442 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens plus de ce qui est arrivé avant avec la Guerre froide, puis la crise domicile à Cuba. I can't remember what happened before with the Cold War, then the Cuban home crisis. 0:10:41.122 --> 0:10:52.892 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais au à l'école secondaire, ça, c'est très clair dans mon esprit, la peur que la population avait à l'époque, c'était ça, c'est très palpable. When I was in high school, it's very clear in my mind, the fear that people had at the time, that was it, it's very palpable. 0:10:53.692 --> 0:10:58.2 Hélène Goulet La guerre du Vietnam je ne connaissais pas beaucoup d'Américains à l'époque non plus. I didn't know many Americans back then either. 0:10:58.12 --> 0:11:8.982 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que tu sais toute cette controverse qui avait aux États-Unis qui étaient vraiment très forte aux États-Unis, c'est comme si, en littérature, ça nous rejoint, ça ne nous rejoignait pas beaucoup. So, you know, all this controversy in the United States, which was really, really strong in the United States, it's as if, in literature, it reached us, it didn't reach us very much. 0:11:8.992 --> 0:11:11.52 Hélène Goulet Peut-être, si on avait étudié en histoire ou en. Maybe, if we had studied history or. 0:11:13.142 --> 0:11:15.262 Hélène Goulet Science politique on aurait été beaucoup plus. Political science we would have been much more. 0:11:18.132 --> 0:11:19.142 Hélène Goulet Pris là-dedans, tu sais? Caught up in it, you know? 0:11:19.152 --> 0:11:22.892 Hélène Goulet Dans ces discussions là, mais en littérature, on avait un peu la tête dans les nuages. In these discussions, but in literature, we had our heads in the clouds. 0:11:34.742 --> 0:11:36.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:11:26.572 --> 0:11:40.762 Gigi Kaur Ouais c'est vrai, c'est compréhensible parce que moi je suis dans le cours de l'histoire et science politique, mais nous on est toujours mais elle est dans ces sujets là comme carrément y a la situation de Palestine et Israël fait qu'on parle toujours de ça, il Ukraine. Yeah, it's true, it's understandable because I'm in the history and political science course, but we're always but she's in these subjects there as squarely there's the situation of Palestine and Israel makes that we always talk about it, it Ukraine. 0:11:39.72 --> 0:11:49.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais Ben c'est maintenant, je suis beaucoup prise politisée maintenant dans ma vie je suis beaucoup plus qui se passe dans le monde maintenant mais à l'époque moi j'étais très jeune aussi. I'm much more aware of what's going on in the world now, but back then I was very young too. 0:11:49.372 --> 0:12:0.942 Hélène Goulet Il faut dire que je suis arrivée à l'université, j'avais, j'avais, je venais de mon petit village fait que juste adaptation à la ville, à l'université, je ne connaissais personne dans mes cours. It has to be said that when I arrived at university, I had, I had, I came from my little village, so just adapting to the city, at university, I didn't know anyone in my classes. 0:12:1.722 --> 0:12:5.82 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, c'est très Axios gêne. It was very difficult, it's very axios embarrassing. 0:12:6.62 --> 0:12:12.102 Hélène Goulet C'est qu'il y a eu y a eu ça parce que je devais travailler et que j'avais beaucoup de responsabilités quand même. That's because I had to work, and I had a lot of responsibility. 0:12:12.112 --> 0:12:13.782 Hélène Goulet J'étais l'aîné de ma famille. I was the eldest in my family. 0:12:14.192 --> 0:12:22.292 Hélène Goulet Et puis l'année avant que j’aie l'université, on a eu un feu, on a, on a perdu notre maison, notre magasin. And then the year before I went to university, we had a fire, we lost our house, our store. 0:12:23.452 --> 0:12:28.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis dans un petit village, il n’y a pas de logement, n’y a pas d'appartement. Uh, then in a small village, there's no housing, there's no apartment. 0:12:28.682 --> 0:12:33.202 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, alors mon sens. It was very, very difficult, then, in my opinion. 0:12:33.212 --> 0:12:38.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'avais des frères et des sœurs que moi j'essayais de passer à travers l'université plus vite possible. And then I had brothers and sisters that I was trying to get through college as quickly as possible. 0:12:38.632 --> 0:12:42.942 Hélène Goulet J'ai fait un cours de 4h03 ans parce que je voulais pouvoir aider à mon frère, pour ma sœur. I did a 4:03 course because I wanted to be able to help my brother, for my sister. 0:12:44.712 --> 0:12:48.192 Hélène Goulet Et puis il se fait que j'ai mon sens des responsabilités aiguë. I also happen to have a strong sense of responsibility. 0:12:49.882 --> 0:12:52.92 Hélène Goulet Probablement trop aigu pour mon âge. Probably too sharp for my age. 0:12:52.102 --> 0:12:57.482 Hélène Goulet J'avais à peine 17 ans quand je suis arrivée à l'université, j'étais très jeune. I was barely 17 when I went to university, so I was very young. 0:12:57.942 --> 0:13:3.592 Hélène Goulet Et puis je partais d'un tout petit village, puis je partais d'une école secondaire où j'étais une première de classe. And then I left a very small village, and then I left a high school where I was top of my class. 0:13:3.602 --> 0:13:5.522 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais, tout le monde me connaissait. So, you know, everybody knew me. 0:13:6.112 --> 0:13:10.542 Hélène Goulet Euh bon c'est sûr que ça c'était un gros changement pour moi. Ouais. Well, that was a big change for me. Yeah, it was. 0:13:10.542 --> 0:13:12.122 Gigi Kaur En parlons des gros changements. Let's talk about the big changes. 0:13:12.592 --> 0:13:14.572 Gigi Kaur Je sais que y a plus que ce que je vous demande. I know there's more to it than meets the eye. 0:13:14.582 --> 0:13:24.12 Gigi Kaur C'est vraiment été personnel, ce n’est pas sur la feuille, mais tu sais, je voulais savoir comme vous avez dit la première année, c'était quand même difficile ce que vous avez fait des amis comme facilement. It's really been personal, it's not on the sheet, but you know, I wanted to know as you said the first year, it was still difficult what you did friends as easily. 0:13:24.22 --> 0:13:25.82 Gigi Kaur C'était un petit style aussi. It was a little style too. 0:13:25.772 --> 0:13:27.302 Hélène Goulet Non, je suis assez sociable. No, I'm quite sociable. 0:13:27.312 --> 0:13:35.362 Hélène Goulet Et puis je suis un peu timide mais pas outre mesure, je ne suis pas introverti, je suis plutôt extravertie. And then I'm a bit shy but not overly so, I'm not an introvert, I'm more of an extrovert. 0:13:35.372 --> 0:13:39.62 Hélène Goulet Pas exagérer non plus moins maintenant qu'à l'époque, probablement. It's no exaggeration either, probably less so now than then. 0:13:41.72 --> 0:13:57.952 Hélène Goulet Alors non, je me suis fait un petit groupe d'amis, là très solide, qui a duré pendant toutes les années d'études parce qu'on se retrouvait dans les mêmes cours tout le temps, parce qu'on se spécialisait dans la température, se fait qu'on se retrouvait dans des courses de spécialisation et où il n’y avait presque personne en fait. So no, I made a very solid little group of friends, which lasted throughout my years of study, because we ended up in the same courses all the time, because we were specializing in temperature, and we ended up in specialization courses where there was hardly anyone. 0:13:57.962 --> 0:13:58.822 Hélène Goulet 678. 678 0:13:58.832 --> 0:14:7.602 Hélène Goulet Des fois que c'est toujours le même monde, on t'a toujours avec les mêmes personnes, puis dans les cours de littérature anglaise, ça, c'était intéressant. Sometimes it's always the same world, you're always with the same people, and in English literature classes, that was interesting. 0:14:7.612 --> 0:14:14.652 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas que ma te fais des amis, euh, c'est ma mineure en anglais, elle te retient. I don't remember my making friends, uh, it's my English minor, she's holding you back. 0:14:14.662 --> 0:14:32.152 Hélène Goulet Anglais, c'était ma spécialisation mineure, ma concentration et je ne me souviens pas de m'être fait des amis durables qui ont duré dans le temps, probablement parce que j'avais un petit groupe d'amis qui étaient très solidaire, puis on était, comme presque toujours dans les mêmes courbes. English was my minor specialization, my concentration, and I don't remember making any lasting friends who lasted over time, probably because I had a small group of friends who were very supportive, and then we were, as almost always, in the same curves. 0:14:32.162 --> 0:14:35.262 Hélène Goulet Mais cours d'anglais était souvent très tôt le matin aussi. But English classes were often very early in the morning too. 0:14:35.812 --> 0:14:38.362 Hélène Goulet Alors je ne sais pas, je ne peux pas l'expliquer. So, I don't know, I can't explain it. 0:14:38.772 --> 0:14:54.632 Hélène Goulet Les cours de sociologie, psychologie en première année, c'était des immenses cours avec des centaines d'étudiants, alors ce n’était pas vraiment propice à non plus à enfin avoir des relations plus proches avec les gens. First-year sociology and psychology courses were huge classes with hundreds of students, so it wasn't exactly conducive to finally getting to know people. 0:14:55.92 --> 0:14:55.742 Hélène Goulet Ça fait quoi? How does it feel? 0:14:55.752 --> 0:15:0.792 Hélène Goulet On, c'est comme en fait ce petit groupe là, puis on fait beaucoup de choses ensemble. We're like this little group, and we do a lot of things together. 0:15:2.82 --> 0:15:3.802 Gigi Kaur OKOK parfait. OK Perfect 0:15:8.732 --> 0:15:9.482 Hélène Goulet Non, ça va. No, I'm fine. 0:15:4.982 --> 0:15:32.42 Gigi Kaur Je vais faire un changement de sujet si ça ne vous dérange pas la prochaine question, ce sera les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils ont appelé le féminisme de la 2e vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de là de la contre-culture, les femmes de du début des années 1970, on cherchait à briser les barrières entre les sexes. I'm going to change the subject if you don't mind, the next question will be Cultural historians have written a lot about what they've called 2nd wave feminism, namely that as part of the counter-culture movement, women in the early 1970s were looking to break down barriers between the sexes. 0:15:32.822 --> 0:15:41.42 Gigi Kaur Cet argument raisonné-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970? Does this argument square with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus in the early 1970s? 0:15:42.52 --> 0:15:47.502 Hélène Goulet Oui, donc je dirais que oui, je surtout Ben moi. Yes, so I'd say yes, especially Ben me. 0:15:47.512 --> 0:15:56.192 Hélène Goulet Personnellement, je suis devenu extrêmement féministe à ce moment-là, au point où j'en ai été désagréable parfois certaine. Personally, I became extremely feminist at that time, to the point where I was sometimes unpleasant about it. 0:15:57.732 --> 0:16:8.452 Hélène Goulet Hop, tu commences beaucoup à remarquer, Tu sais, dans ma famille, avec chez ma tante, mes cousins qui ne faisaient pas la vaisselle, tu sais, ma cousine qui faisait la vaisselle n'est pas mes cousins. Hop, you're starting to notice a lot, you know, in my family, with my aunt, my cousins who didn't do the dishes, you know, my cousin who did the dishes isn't my cousins. 0:16:8.462 --> 0:16:18.102 Hélène Goulet Tu sais des choses comme ça, je devenue assez, on dirait strident en anglais par rapport à ça. You know things like that, I've become quite, you'd say strident in English about it. 0:16:18.202 --> 0:16:21.12 Hélène Goulet Puis dans mon petit groupe d'amis, il y avait des femmes. Then in my little group of friends, there were women. 0:16:23.752 --> 0:16:25.782 Hélène Goulet Des femmes très féministes aussi. Very feminist women too. 0:16:26.332 --> 0:16:29.342 Hélène Goulet Et puis on a eu beaucoup de conversations. And then we had a lot of conversations. 0:16:29.352 --> 0:16:37.412 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens au sujet de tu sais, la contraception, le rôle des femmes, l'avortement. I remember about you know, contraception, the role of women, abortion. 0:16:37.422 --> 0:16:45.652 Hélène Goulet Si je me souviens qu'on a eu beaucoup de ces conversations-là dans le petit groupe, il y avait, il y avait un homme dans le petit groupe, puis y avait 3 ou 4 femmes. If I remember we had a lot of these conversations in the small group, there was, there was one man in the small group, and then there were 3 or 4 women. 0:16:47.422 --> 0:16:59.452 Hélène Goulet Puis c'est intéressant parce que cet homme-là, je l'ai retrouvé il n’y a pas longtemps parce qu’il est prof, Fredericton à l'université Fredericton, prof de français. And it's interesting because I found this man not long ago because he's a teacher, Fredericton at Fredericton university, a French teacher. 0:17:0.442 --> 0:17:11.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis devenu auteur aussi, puis j'ai lu un texte qu'il avait écrit de fiction, c'est comme ça que je l'ai retrouvé, puis je lui ai, je l'ai, je lui ai écrit à l'université. And then I became an author too, and then I read a piece of fiction he'd written, and that's how I found it, and then I, I, I wrote to him at university. 0:17:11.952 --> 0:17:16.712 Hélène Goulet Frédéric fait que 50 ans plus tard, j'ai retrouvé quelqu'un. Frédéric means that 50 years later, I've found someone again. 0:17:16.722 --> 0:17:24.12 Hélène Goulet C'est le seul que j'ai retrouvé, il y en avait une autre personne qui était végétarienne à l'époque, puis elle aussi elle s'était retrouvée. He's the only one I've found, there was another person who was a vegetarian at the time, then she too had found herself. 0:17:24.22 --> 0:17:27.582 Hélène Goulet Mais finalement, on n'a pas réussi à maintenir une relation. But in the end, we couldn't maintain a relationship. 0:17:29.862 --> 0:17:34.662 Hélène Goulet Mais oui, il y avait beaucoup de conversations, puis on y trouve beaucoup. But yes, there was a lot of conversation, and then there's a lot. 0:17:34.672 --> 0:17:35.812 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, le 2e cercle? You know, the 2nd circle? 0:17:35.822 --> 0:17:42.842 Hélène Goulet Semaine de Beauvoir, oui, il y avait une conscience féministe qui se développait dans la société. Semaine de Beauvoir, yes, there was a feminist consciousness developing in society. 0:17:42.972 --> 0:17:44.282 Hélène Goulet Ouais très fort. Yeah, very strong. 0:17:45.912 --> 0:17:53.122 Gigi Kaur Je note une question suivie, à part ça, vous trouvez qu’il y avait beaucoup de femmes qui étaient plus féministes où c'était? I note a follow-up question, apart from that, do you find that there were many women who were more feminist where that was? 0:17:53.172 --> 0:17:55.472 Gigi Kaur C'était certaines catégories des femmes. They were certain categories of women. 0:17:55.952 --> 0:18:4.522 Hélène Goulet Ben je, je pense que le fait que ces femmes-là étaient d'abord à l'université, c'était déjà un peu exceptionnel. Well, I think the fact that these women were at university in the first place was already a bit exceptional. 0:18:4.532 --> 0:18:12.742 Hélène Goulet Dans le sens c'est vrai qu'il y avait beaucoup de plus en plus de femmes à l'université à l'époque, mais pour quelqu'un comme moi qui venait d'un petit village, c'était un exploit. It's true that more and more women were going to university at the time, but for someone like me from a small village, it was quite a feat. 0:18:13.802 --> 0:18:16.972 Hélène Goulet On n’avait pas d'autres filles dans mon village qui était à l'université. We didn't have any other girls in my village who were at university. 0:18:16.982 --> 0:18:20.912 Hélène Goulet C'était la seule, il y avait eu un garçon avant moi. She was the only one; there had been a boy before me. 0:18:23.122 --> 0:18:35.702 Hélène Goulet Et puis alors ça en soit c'était un signe qu'on avait une certaine ambition d'être autre chose que des femmes au foyer ou des mères de famille, et qu'on avait des ambitions plus grandes. And so that in itself was a sign that we had a certain ambition to be something other than housewives or mothers, and that we had greater ambitions. 0:18:35.712 --> 0:18:46.972 Hélène Goulet C'est plus de de plus d'indépendance dans nos vies et que je pense que la plupart de ces femmes-là, qui étaient l'université probablement, avait un peu la même chose. It's more independence in our lives and I think most of these women, who were probably in university, had a bit of the same thing. 0:18:46.982 --> 0:18:49.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ils n'étaient pas là pour se trouver un mari, pour avoir des bébés. You know, they weren't there to find husbands or have babies. 0:18:50.402 --> 0:18:51.472 Hélène Goulet Ça coûtait cher. It was expensive. 0:18:51.942 --> 0:18:59.502 Hélène Goulet Et puis on travaillait fort, alors tu sais, je pense que le les gens qui étaient là, euh. And then we worked hard, so you know, I think the people who were there, uh. 0:18:59.672 --> 0:19:4.212 Hélène Goulet En général, les femmes qui étaient là devaient être un peu féministe sinon. In general, the women who were there must have been a bit feminist otherwise. 0:19:6.342 --> 0:19:9.322 Hélène Goulet Ce ne serait pas les ongles que ça serait chercher à Marie, tu sais? It wouldn't be the nails that would be looking for Marie, you know? 0:19:11.382 --> 0:19:25.742 Hélène Goulet Les femmes qui ne sont pas liées à l'université, là je ne peux pas vous dire parce que ce n’est pas mon cercle d'amis, mais il y en a beaucoup comme avec des filles avec qui moi je suis allé à l'école secondaire, ce n’était pas des féministes, celles qui se sont mariés en sortant de l'école secondaire. I can't tell you about women who aren't related to university because they're not my circle of friends, but there are a lot of them, like the girls I went to high school with, who weren't feminists, the ones who got married right out of high school. 0:19:26.892 --> 0:19:30.212 Hélène Goulet Euh elles n’étaient pas féminines? Uh, weren't they feminine? 0:19:30.222 --> 0:19:37.672 Hélène Goulet Se sont mariés, ont commencé à avoir des enfants, demeurent à la maison, c'étaient des femmes dans des rôles traditionnels, la plupart aussi. Got married, started having children, stayed at home, were women in traditional roles, most of them too. 0:19:37.682 --> 0:19:53.472 Hélène Goulet Elles travaillaient, c'était dans des postes non professionnels parce qu'elles avaient un diplôme d'études secondaires seulement, mais moi, j'ai perdu contact avec ces gens-là, quoi que à l'époque, c'était mes amis, puis je j'ai joué de l'orgue à toute leur mariage. They worked in non-professional jobs because they only had a high school diploma, but I lost touch with these people, even though they were my friends at the time, and I played the organ at all their weddings. 0:19:53.892 --> 0:20:6.842 Hélène Goulet C'est moi qui c'est moi qui a joué la musique à tout le mariage, mais je me souviens de de jouer pour le mariage puis de penser merci mon Dieu, ce n’est pas moi. I'm the one who played the music at the wedding, but I remember playing for the wedding and then thinking thank God it wasn't me. 0:20:8.92 --> 0:20:10.32 Hélène Goulet Merci mon Dieu que ce n’est pas moi. Thank God it's not me. 0:20:12.162 --> 0:20:17.762 Hélène Goulet Parce que au bout de la première année, j'ai quitté le copain que j'avais que j'avais eu pendant mon école secondaire. Because after the first year, I left the boyfriend I'd had in high school. 0:20:17.772 --> 0:20:22.362 Hélène Goulet Je l'ai quitté au bout d'un an, puis là, Ben ma vie a changé complètement, c'est ça? I left him after a year, and then Ben completely changed my life, didn't he? 0:20:22.922 --> 0:20:34.412 Gigi Kaur OK, parlons des relations intimes, je sais que vous allez droit de départ répondre, mais après l'université, est ce que vous avez vous trouvé dans un rôle quand même? OK, let's talk about intimate relationships, I know you're going to start answering, but after university, did you find yourself in a role anyway? 0:20:34.422 --> 0:20:40.142 Gigi Kaur Traductionnel d'avoir des enfants la famille, vous avez fait je vraiment focusser sur mon courriel et tout. Translation of having kids the family, you made me really focus on my email and everything. 0:20:40.822 --> 0:21:3.152 Hélène Goulet Bah j'ai je me suis mariée à 20 6h et j'ai eu mon premier enfant à 30 ans et puis je avant 20 6h J'ai fini l'université, j'avais 21 ans, j'ai commencé à travailler enseigner à l'école secondaire à 21 ans, qui était très jeune. Well, I got married at 20 6 and had my first child at 30 and then I finished university, I was 21, I started working as a high school teacher at 21, which was very young. 0:21:5.452 --> 0:21:21.602 Hélène Goulet Parce que j'ai fondamentalement fait 5 ans d'études en 4h parce qu'en étudiant l'été aussi, j'ai comprimer mes 5 années d'études en 4 ans, que j'ai commencé à enseigner à 21 ans à l'école secondaire, que j'étais vraiment dans la vraie vie. Because I basically did 5 years of study in 4 hours, because by studying in the summer too, I compressed my 5 years of study into 4 years, that I started teaching at 21 in high school, that I was really in the real world. 0:21:21.612 --> 0:21:22.972 Hélène Goulet Là, c'est vraiment. This is the real thing. 0:21:25.182 --> 0:21:29.732 Hélène Goulet Projeter dans la vraie vie puis c'est dans une ville nouvelle ville aussi. Project in real life then it's in a new city too. 0:21:30.62 --> 0:21:35.252 Hélène Goulet Euh alors ça, ça m'a, je suis vraiment devenue une adulte. Well, that really made me an adult. 0:21:35.262 --> 0:21:39.422 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais, j'ai été 5 ans J’habitais seule pendant 5h avant de me marier. You know, I lived alone for 5 years before getting married. 0:21:40.632 --> 0:21:47.452 Hélène Goulet Je n’habitais pas dans la même ville que mon copain que j'ai rencontré à 21 ans, euh. I didn't live in the same town as my boyfriend who I met when I was 21. 0:21:49.402 --> 0:21:54.122 Hélène Goulet On n’habitait pas dans la même ville que j'ai eu une vie quand même très indépendante pendant 5 ans. We didn't live in the same town, and I had a very independent life for 5 years. 0:21:55.42 --> 0:22:3.72 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, après que je me suis mariée, je suis, j'ai travaillé encore 2 ans, puis tu retournes à l'école. Then, after I got married, I worked for another 2 years, and then you go back to school. 0:22:3.332 --> 0:22:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'avais commencé mon MBE à temps partiel pendant que je travaillais, puis j'ai travaillé. I had started my MBE part-time while I was working, and then I went to work. 0:22:10.222 --> 0:22:16.782 Hélène Goulet Bon 5h avant de me marier, puis je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler, fait que j'ai, j'ai toujours travaillé. Well, 5 hours before I got married, and then I never stopped working, because I've always worked. 0:22:16.792 --> 0:22:18.102 Hélène Goulet Sauf que je suis retourné à l'école. Except I went back to school. 0:22:19.672 --> 0:22:23.172 Hélène Goulet Alors, 28 ans, 20 9h. So, 28 years, 20 9h. 0:22:24.442 --> 0:22:27.232 Hélène Goulet J'ai travaillé 2 ans après que j'ai été mariée. I worked 2 years after I was married. 0:22:27.642 --> 0:22:29.502 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, je suis retournée faire mon droit. Then I went back to law school. 0:22:31.582 --> 0:22:38.732 Hélène Goulet Mais j'avais commencé mon MBE pendant que je travaillais, donc 21 et 26. But I had started my MBE while I was working, so 21 and 26. 0:22:39.112 --> 0:22:42.642 Hélène Goulet Le temps partiel et puis j'ai terminé, j'ai fait les 2 en même temps. Part-time and then I finished, I did the 2 at the same time. 0:22:42.652 --> 0:22:47.392 Hélène Goulet J'ai terminé en même temps les 2, le MB à et le diplôme de droit Commonwealth. I completed both the MB at and the Commonwealth Law Diploma at the same time. 0:22:48.182 --> 0:22:55.132 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis là j'étais enceinte en 2e année de droit, qui est enceinte? Uh, I was pregnant in my 2nd year of law school, who's pregnant? 0:22:55.222 --> 0:22:55.982 Hélène Goulet Pas dans mon barreau. Not in my bar association. 0:22:57.972 --> 0:23:9.682 Hélène Goulet Et puis les 2 derniers, j'ai eu 4 enfants, puis les 2 derniers, j'étais, j'étais employé au gouvernement fédéral quand j'ai eu les 2 derniers enfants que j'en ai eu 4 en moins de 6h. And then the last 2, I had 4 children, then the last 2, I was, I was employed by the federal government when I had the last 2 children that I had 4 in less than 6 hours. 0:23:11.572 --> 0:23:13.282 Hélène Goulet Mais je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler. But I never stopped working. 0:23:13.322 --> 0:23:15.732 Hélène Goulet Ce soit à l'école ou au travail ou l'autre? Either at school or at work or the other? 0:23:15.742 --> 0:23:20.182 Hélène Goulet J'ai, je n’ai jamais été femme au foyer, tu sais, je suis restée à la maison 4 mois après chaque bébé. I've, I've never been a housewife, you know, I stayed at home 4 months after each baby. 0:23:21.822 --> 0:23:23.352 Hélène Goulet 5 mois après le dernier. 5 months after the last one. 0:23:24.502 --> 0:23:28.582 Hélène Goulet Mais autrement, j'ai toujours été dans le pain principal dans ma famille, à partir de. But otherwise, I've always been into the main bread in my family, from. 0:23:31.452 --> 0:23:40.812 Hélène Goulet À partir du moment où je suis allée travailler au ministère de la Justice, j'ai été le gagne-pain principal dans ma famille, toute ma vie, toute ma vie. Hey. From the moment I went to work for the Justice Department, I've been the main breadwinner in my family, all my life, all my life. Hey. 0:23:39.792 --> 0:23:41.832 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très fascinant. OK I find that very fascinating. 0:23:43.262 --> 0:23:47.322 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est vrai que j'ai combiné les 2, ça a été très difficile par moment hein? Yeah, it's true that I've combined the 2, it's been very difficult at times, hasn't it? 0:23:48.922 --> 0:23:52.512 Hélène Goulet Très difficile par moment, mais j'ai aucun regret par rapport à ça. Very difficult at times, but I have no regrets about that. 0:23:53.312 --> 0:23:55.52 Gigi Kaur Tant que vous êtes content, c'est ça qui compte. As long as you're happy, that's what counts. 0:23:55.502 --> 0:24:2.352 Hélène Goulet Voilà, c'est ça, mais j'ai quitté mon conjoint au bout de 30 ans, puis là, j'ai toute une nouvelle vie depuis 13 ans, ça fait que. That's it, but I left my partner after 30 years, and now I've had a whole new life for 13 years. 0:24:3.752 --> 0:24:5.692 Gigi Kaur Et alors? So what? 0:24:5.702 --> 0:24:19.162 Gigi Kaur J'ai une dernière question suivie, à part de cette sujette dans les années 1970, il y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'université d'Ottawa ou les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins acceptées? I have one last follow-up question: aside from this topic in the 1970s, were there any programs, departments, or clubs at the University of Ottawa where women were less present or less accepted? 0:24:19.762 --> 0:24:24.402 Hélène Goulet Oui, je pense que à génie en particulier, il y avait beaucoup de. Yes, I think in engineering in particular, there were a lot of. 0:24:26.232 --> 0:24:36.442 Hélène Goulet Euh, prêt, j'ai des stéréotypes de stéréotypes par rapport aux femmes dans des en sciences ou en mathématiques, ou en génie ou pas. Uh, ready, I have stereotypes about women in science or math, or engineering or not. 0:24:36.532 --> 0:24:38.432 Hélène Goulet Probablement même en médecine. Probably even in medicine. 0:24:38.442 --> 0:24:45.842 Hélène Goulet Mais ça, je suis moins au courant, mais on entendait souvent parler de des problèmes que les femmes avaient dans certaines facultés. I don't know about that, but we often heard about the problems women had in certain faculties. 0:24:46.172 --> 0:24:57.682 Hélène Goulet En droit, il y avait beaucoup de femmes quand quand, moi je suis retournée faire mon droit en 1982, il y avait beaucoup de femmes, ça fait qu’il n’y avait pas ces préjugés-là. In law, there were a lot of women when I went back to law school in 1982, there were a lot of women, so there wasn't that prejudice. 0:24:57.722 --> 0:25:0.692 Hélène Goulet Autant, en tout cas pas que moi j'ai pu voir. At least not as many as I've seen. 0:25:1.182 --> 0:25:8.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, moi j'étais plus âgée aussi que la plupart des étudiants en droit parce que j'étais presque une autre génération. J'avais. Uh, I was older than most law students, too, because I was almost a different generation. I was. 0:25:10.412 --> 0:25:12.332 Hélène Goulet Grâce à dieu, je peux passer mon droit. Thanks to God, I can pass my law exam. 0:25:12.342 --> 0:25:29.802 Hélène Goulet J'avais 20, 9h20, 9h alors que la plupart des étudiants en droit avaient 22 parce qu'il fait un bac, il venait de tenir leur premier bac où il y avait fait juste 2 ans d'un bac, alors que moi j'avais, je vais déjà l'équivalent de 5 années de d'études universitaires. I was 20, 9h20, 9h whereas most law students were 22 because they'd just had their first baccalaureate where they'd done just 2 years of a baccalaureate, whereas I'd already had the equivalent of 5 years of university studies. 0:25:29.802 --> 0:25:30.902 Hélène Goulet J'avais l'équivalent de. I had the equivalent of. 0:25:32.702 --> 0:25:39.432 Hélène Goulet SATA dans le monde du travail fait que c'était une ça que j'étais comme une autre génération. SATA in the world of work meant that I was like another generation. 0:25:39.742 --> 0:25:43.172 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai commencé à avoir mes enfants pendant cette période. Then I started having my children during this period. 0:25:43.182 --> 0:25:48.152 Hélène Goulet Là aussi que j'étais vraiment encore là, tu sais, la vie sociale, pour moi, elle n'existait pas. I was still really there, you know, social life didn't exist for me. 0:25:48.162 --> 0:25:53.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était les l'école, je retournais à étudier chez nous, j'allais à la bibliothèque. You know, it was back to school, back to studying at home, back to the library. 0:25:53.382 --> 0:25:57.982 Hélène Goulet Il fallait que je trouve quelque chose, puis sociale existe pas. I had to find something, then society doesn't exist. 0:25:58.572 --> 0:26:0.222 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était vraiment ouais. You know, it was really yeah. 0:26:1.32 --> 0:26:2.862 Hélène Goulet Voilà la famille, la famille, ouais. That's family, family, yeah. 0:26:4.132 --> 0:26:16.642 Gigi Kaur Parlons que vous étiez en droit après un certain âge, avec des, des jeunes femmes, ce que vous avez fait des connexions, des relations avec eux, ce qu'ils ont envoyé, comme la grande sœur. Let's talk about you were in law after a certain age, with des, young women, what you did connections, relationships with them, what they sent, like big sister. 0:26:17.492 --> 0:26:28.332 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, je me suis fait quelques très bonnes amies, des hommes aussi d'ailleurs, y avait beaucoup de gens qui venaient du Nord de l'Ontario qui faisaient leur droit français à l'université d'Ottawa. No, I made some very good friends, men too, in fact, there were a lot of people from Northern Ontario who were studying French law at the University of Ottawa. 0:26:28.702 --> 0:26:38.572 Hélène Goulet Euh, je suis devenue très amie avec une jeune femme qui qui avait 7 ans de moins que moi et qui, devenu juge, elle vient juste de prendre sa retraite. Uh, I've become very good friends with a young woman who was 7 years younger than me and who, having become a judge, has just retired. 0:26:38.582 --> 0:26:43.892 Hélène Goulet Le livre revue après plusieurs années, je l'ai revu en décembre dernier. The book was reviewed after several years, I saw it again last December. 0:26:43.902 --> 0:26:45.342 Hélène Goulet On aurait connecté. We would have connected. 0:26:47.532 --> 0:26:48.842 Hélène Goulet Et puis, qui dort? And then, who sleeps? 0:26:48.852 --> 0:26:55.192 Hélène Goulet Il y a une autre personne que j'ai avec qui j'ai gardé contact aussi, euh. There's another person I've kept in touch with too, um. 0:26:55.402 --> 0:26:57.112 Hélène Goulet Jusqu'à maintenant, on se voit encore. So far, we're still seeing each other. 0:26:58.652 --> 0:27:5.502 Hélène Goulet Les autres, je les ai revus à l'occasion dans des événements et tout, mais ma vie a été quand même très occupée. The others I saw occasionally at events and so on, but my life was still very busy. 0:27:5.522 --> 0:27:8.512 Hélène Goulet Puis, avec le temps, évidemment, j'ai développé d'autres intérêts. Then, over time, of course, I developed other interests. 0:27:8.942 --> 0:27:18.322 Hélène Goulet J'ai rencontré d'autres personnes, j'ai un autre cercle d'amis maintenant parce que ça fait tellement d'années que je ne travaille pas comme avocate, que j'ai un peu perdu ce groupe. I've met other people, I have another circle of friends now because it's been so many years since I worked as a lawyer, that I've kind of lost that group. 0:27:18.332 --> 0:27:20.152 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais ouais. Now you know. 0:27:19.342 --> 0:27:24.342 Gigi Kaur Et oui, j'ai vu votre biographie, c'est, je trouve ça très intéressant. And yes, I've seen your biography, it's, I find it very interesting. 0:27:24.732 --> 0:27:24.992 Gigi Kaur Vous avez travaillé pour sa santé Canada, allez travailler pour le doigt, vous allez travailler comme n'importe où. You've worked for his health Canada, go to work for the finger, you'll work like anywhere else. 0:27:37.262 --> 0:27:37.912 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est ça. Yes, that's it. 0:27:31.342 --> 0:27:40.722 Gigi Kaur Ça, ça se montre que vous êtes très flexible à travailler partout, mais vous avez plusieurs intérêts, fait que vous n’êtes pas quelqu'un qui qui aime rester sur une place, je pense. This shows that you're very flexible to work anywhere, but you have many interests, so you're not someone who likes to stay in one place, I think. 0:27:40.292 --> 0:27:41.372 Hélène Goulet Non pas du tout. Not at all. 0:27:41.382 --> 0:27:47.582 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai, je suis un, je suis un, vraiment quelqu'un qui, Life long, learner tout. Then I, I'm a, I'm a, really someone who, Life long, learner everything. 0:27:47.622 --> 0:27:56.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai continué à étudier, je suis retournée à l'université en 2015, j'ai fait un diplôme en théologie contemplative. I continued to study, I went back to university in 2015, I did a degree in contemplative theology. 0:27:56.942 --> 0:28:8.62 Hélène Goulet Ma vie a vraiment, il y a eu un.de bascule causée par plusieurs traumatismes qui sont arrivés en même temps. My life has really, there was a tipping point caused by several traumas that happened at the same time. 0:28:8.872 --> 0:28:11.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis effet que ma vie a complètement basculé. And then my life completely turned upside down. 0:28:11.972 --> 0:28:16.302 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis rebâtie et je me suis complètement rebâtie. And then I rebuilt myself and rebuilt myself completely. 0:28:16.312 --> 0:28:17.22 Hélène Goulet Une vie. One life. 0:28:17.572 --> 0:28:21.82 Hélène Goulet Puis maintenant, je suis très impliquée comme bénévole. And now I'm very, very, very involved as a volunteer. 0:28:23.402 --> 0:28:38.132 Hélène Goulet Mais j'utilise toutes mes compétences de de gestion, d'administration, de police et de toutes les compétences que j'ai acquises dans le monde du travail me servent maintenant dans mon bénévolat. But I'm using all my management, administrative and police skills, and all the skills I've acquired in the working world, to help me in my voluntary work. 0:28:38.142 --> 0:28:42.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais peut-être, à une échelle moins grande, mais quand même? Euh. You know, maybe on a smaller scale, but still? Uh-huh. 0:28:42.832 --> 0:28:45.292 Hélène Goulet Alors c'est ça, ma vie est complètement différente. So that's it, my life is completely different. 0:28:45.302 --> 0:28:50.642 Hélène Goulet Puis depuis ma j'ai pris ma retraite en 2012. Then I retired en 2012. 0:28:53.542 --> 0:28:59.862 Hélène Goulet Même juste ma santé, juste m'occuper de ma santé, c'est quelque chose qui est pour moi, qui a été relativement nouveau. Even just my health, just looking after my health, that's something that's relatively new to me. 0:28:59.872 --> 0:29:2.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, mais maintenant je suis comme très disciplinée. You know, but now I’m very disciplined. 0:29:2.972 --> 0:29:4.912 Hélène Goulet C'est toujours été très disciplinée. She's always been very disciplined. 0:29:4.922 --> 0:29:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'ai toujours cru à short. I've always believed in short. 0:29:8.322 --> 0:29:11.962 Hélène Goulet Pain for long-term Game, c'est ça toujours été ma philosophie de vie. Pain for long-term Game has always been my philosophy. 0:29:11.972 --> 0:29:14.712 Hélène Goulet Ben, mes parents étaient comme ça, tu sais, c'est. Well, my parents were like that, you know, that's it. 0:29:14.722 --> 0:29:17.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai grandi comme ça, j'ai grandi comme ça. I grew up like that, I grew up like that. 0:29:17.442 --> 0:29:18.962 Hélène Goulet Mes parents travaillaient très fort. My parents worked very hard. 0:29:20.932 --> 0:29:25.262 Hélène Goulet Puis on a eu des, des chocs dans la famille, fait que je n’étais pas. Then we had some, some shocks in the family, which meant that I was not. 0:29:25.552 --> 0:29:26.852 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas une enfant gâtée. I wasn't a spoiled brat. 0:29:26.862 --> 0:29:31.292 Hélène Goulet Là, ça, l'aîné de ma famille aussi, alors je ne sais pas gâter. Here, this, the eldest in my family too, so I don't know if I'm spoiled. 0:29:31.302 --> 0:29:35.452 Hélène Goulet J'étais très, très responsable, trop responsable, trop responsable. I was very, very responsible, too responsible, too responsible. 0:29:35.692 --> 0:29:38.272 Hélène Goulet C'est encore vrai, d'ailleurs moins pire qu'avant. It's still true, and not as bad as before. 0:29:43.352 --> 0:29:46.822 Gigi Kaur Parce que je suis toujours dans la même situation aussi, mais ce n’est pas l'entrevue de moi. Because I'm always in the same situation too, but it's not my interview. 0:29:46.832 --> 0:29:50.32 Gigi Kaur Je voulais juste vous comprendre à vous, comment vous vous avez grandi. I just wanted to understand you, how you grew up. 0:29:49.92 --> 0:29:52.342 Hélène Goulet Est-ce que vous êtes une, est-ce que tu es une année de famille aussi? Are you one, are you a family year too? 0:29:53.42 --> 0:29:55.792 Gigi Kaur L'aîné, oui, j'avais une famille comme difficile. The eldest, yes, I had a difficult family. 0:29:55.802 --> 0:30:0.642 Gigi Kaur Ma mère est monoparentale, mon père était quelque chose, quelqu'un d'intéressant. My mother is a single parent, my father was something, someone interesting. 0:30:1.292 --> 0:30:13.732 Gigi Kaur Quand je dis intéressant, ce n’est pas un bon truc, j'ai une sœur quand même qu'il y a les problèmes de santé comme elle est aveugle, les muettes elle a autisme et tout fait qu'il fallait que je. When I say interesting, it's not a good thing, I have a sister anyway that there are the health problems as she is blind, mute she has autism and everything that I had to. 0:30:13.782 --> 0:30:17.502 Gigi Kaur J'ai gardé mes responsabilités, puis grandir un peu plus vite que les autres. I kept my responsibilities, then grew up a little faster than the others. 0:30:17.912 --> 0:30:19.522 Hélène Goulet Ouais ça exactement. Yeah, that's right. 0:30:19.532 --> 0:30:22.832 Hélène Goulet Ouais je comprends, je comprends, je ne ça qui est sourde aussi. Yeah, I get it, I get it, I don't know who's deaf too. 0:30:24.62 --> 0:30:26.582 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça qui est sourde, ma sœur aussi. Yeah, that's who's deaf, my sister too. 0:30:26.592 --> 0:30:27.982 Hélène Goulet Ça, ça a été un autre Matisse. That was another Matisse. 0:30:27.992 --> 0:30:33.852 Hélène Goulet Dans la famille aussi parce qu'elle a dû quitter le village pour aller à l'école, alors ça a été difficile pour mes parents. Ouais. In the family too because she had to leave the village to go to school, so it was difficult for my parents. Yeah, it was. 0:30:34.222 --> 0:30:38.392 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez, comment dire ça, ce que vous avez pris, la langue de singe? Do you have, how do I put this, what you've got, monkey tongue? 0:30:38.932 --> 0:30:41.382 Hélène Goulet Je connais le la langue des signes du Québec. I know Quebec sign language. 0:30:43.532 --> 0:30:50.922 Hélène Goulet Mais à un niveau que je ne considère pas acceptable, mais je connais l'alphabet, les chiffres. But at a level I don't consider acceptable, but I know the alphabet, the numbers. 0:30:50.932 --> 0:31:1.62 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec ma sœur, on s'est développé un système d’où on se comprend quand on se parle, mais je ne suis pas très mon intelligence kinésique. And then with my sister, we've developed a system where we understand each other when we talk, but I'm not very kinetically intelligent. 0:31:2.662 --> 0:31:6.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, score n’est pas très forte, alors j'oublie facilement. Uh, score's not very strong, so I forget easily. 0:31:6.652 --> 0:31:16.402 Hélène Goulet Puis, comme elle travaille bon, on se voit, on se voit moins, on ne se voit pas chaque jour, c'est que c'est plus difficile de conserver le l'acquis, mais maintenant il y a un APP. Then, since she works well, we see each other less, we don't see each other every day, so it's harder to maintain what we've acquired, but now there's an APP. 0:31:19.72 --> 0:31:21.342 Hélène Goulet Avant, j'avais commencé en ligne des cours aussi. Before that, I had started online courses too. 0:31:21.352 --> 0:31:32.762 Hélène Goulet Là elle excuse, j'en ai suivi en personne aussi que j'ai fait certains efforts au fil des ans puis mais j'étais un peu comme la 2e mère de ma sœur parce qu'on avait 9 ans de différence. She's sorry, but I've made some effort over the years, and I was a bit like my sister's 2nd mother because we were 9 years apart. 0:31:33.932 --> 0:31:39.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que j'ai, j'ai eu un rôle important dans la vie de ma sœur. And that's why I played such an important role in my sister's life. 0:31:40.362 --> 0:31:51.972 Gigi Kaur Le Okay je vois clairement que la famille est vraiment importante pour vous depuis très jeune, même avant l'université et cetera fait que ça c'est très, c'est comment dire ça. Okay, I can clearly see that family is really important to you from a very young age, even before university and so on, so that's very, that's how you say it. 0:31:51.982 --> 0:32:9.932 Gigi Kaur C'est très adorable que cette valeur existe toujours parce que les temps ont clairement changé maintenant, mais à propos de on va aller à l'université de toi parce que Ouais, parce que quand même je n’ai pas vraiment votre background, je trouve. It's very adorable that this value still exists because times have clearly changed now, but about we're going to go to college from you because yeah, because still I don't really have your background, I find. 0:32:9.942 --> 0:32:13.832 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes quelqu'un de très responsable, prématurés et très adorable quand même. You're a very responsible, premature, and very adorable person. 0:32:16.272 --> 0:32:18.462 Gigi Kaur Fait, je vais aller sur la prochaine question. Done, I'll go on to the next question. 0:32:19.862 --> 0:32:34.792 Gigi Kaur Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur qu'ils appellent la révolution de contre-culture, c'est à dire que votre génération, c'est relié contre les valeurs de de la génération de vos parents, même chose qui arrive aujourd'hui aussi avec pas grand-chose qui a changé. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counter-culture revolution, meaning that your generation is bound up against the values of your parents' generation, the same thing that's happening today too, with not much that's changed. 0:32:35.192 --> 0:32:38.482 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social? To what extent do the members of your social circle? 0:32:38.492 --> 0:32:45.792 Gigi Kaur Concernent concernent ils qu'il devait se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? Are they concerned about mobilizing for a fairer society and a better world? 0:32:48.42 --> 0:32:50.122 Hélène Goulet Plus juste, c'est un monde meilleur. A fairer world means a better world. 0:32:51.592 --> 0:32:52.312 Hélène Goulet Je pense que. I think. 0:32:53.882 --> 0:32:58.202 Hélène Goulet Euh, je pense le cercle de littérature avec dans lequel j'opérais. Uh, I think the circle of literature I was operating with. 0:32:59.742 --> 0:33:17.472 Hélène Goulet Était plus, euh au niveau des idées, c'était vraiment au niveau de tu sais le rôle des femmes, la libération, y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires, pas moi, mais y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires. It was more, uh, in terms of ideas, it was really in terms of you know the role of women, liberation, there were some who had multiple partners, not me, but there were some who had multiple partners. 0:33:17.952 --> 0:33:23.212 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une sorte de révolte, mais c'était. There was a kind of revolt, but it was. 0:33:25.732 --> 0:33:26.502 Hélène Goulet Comment dire? What can I say? 0:33:26.512 --> 0:33:28.72 Hélène Goulet C'était vraiment plus haut niveau. It really wasn't up to scratch. 0:33:32.362 --> 0:33:40.772 Hélène Goulet Des fois, des fois, moi ça ne me choquait pas, pas fâché, mais un peu un choc parce que moi je voulais de mon petit village, on venait juste de passer au feu. Sometimes, sometimes, I wasn't shocked, not angry, but a little shocked because I wanted to be from my little village, we'd just gone through the fire. 0:33:40.782 --> 0:33:43.152 Hélène Goulet Je n’avais pas beaucoup d'argent, il fallait que je travaille. I didn't have much money, so I had to work. 0:33:43.872 --> 0:33:48.732 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ma vie était quand même très réglée mais y a de ces gens-là. You know, my life was very regulated, but there are people like that. 0:33:48.772 --> 0:33:58.252 Hélène Goulet Altération, heure qui venaient de famille beaucoup plus à l'aise que moi, qui vivait à la maison, alors ça ne leur coûtait rien, n’y avait pas de loyer à payer, il y avait tu sais? Alteration, time that came from a family much more comfortable than me, who lived at home, so it cost them nothing, there was no rent to pay, there was you know? 0:33:58.262 --> 0:34:7.202 Hélène Goulet Bon, c'était la vie était facile pour eux et y en avait une que son père était président de du musée des beaux-arts. Well, life was easy for them, and one of them was her father, president of the Musée des Beaux-Arts. 0:34:7.212 --> 0:34:8.212 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, bon, c'était. You know, well, it was. 0:34:10.862 --> 0:34:31.292 Hélène Goulet Y en a qui étaient pauvres, y en a qui qui étaient comme moi, qui fallait que je travaille, puis qui payent leurs affaires, puis tout ça, il y en a qui étaient en couple, qui vivait avec un homme, euh, fait qu'il y avait une variété, mais il y avait une sorte stop-loss sphère peu irréaliste par rapport à la vie. Some were poor, some were like me, I had to work, then pay for my things and all that, some were in a couple, living with a man, um, so there was variety, but there was a kind of stop-loss sphere that was a little unrealistic in terms of life. 0:34:31.892 --> 0:34:36.172 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, une sorte de manque de responsabilité, tu sais, y avait. You know, a kind of lack of responsibility, you know, there was. 0:34:38.42 --> 0:34:41.2 Hélène Goulet Une sorte de de de de désabusés comme. A sort of de de de de disillusioned like. 0:34:44.432 --> 0:34:46.962 Hélène Goulet C'est comme s'il trouvait que la vie ne valait pas la peine d'être vécue. It's as if he didn't think life was worth living. 0:34:48.72 --> 0:35:0.202 Hélène Goulet Il y avait comme une sorte de mentalité un peu, c'est certaines personnes pas tout le monde, mais à literature, c'était beaucoup dilettante, tu sais dilettante, genre. There was a kind of mentality that was a bit, it's some people not everybody, but at literature, it was a lot of dilettante, you know dilettante, like. 0:35:2.102 --> 0:35:3.42 Hélène Goulet C'était à Paris. It was in Paris. 0:35:3.52 --> 0:35:12.102 Hélène Goulet Il serait assis dans un café qui aurait parlé d'idées, puis de toutes sortes d'affaires, mais il n’y aurait pas, et ce n’était pas comme la vraie vie. He'd be sitting in a café talking about ideas, then all sorts of business, but there wouldn't be, and it wasn't like real life. 0:35:12.172 --> 0:35:19.492 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’était pas vraiment comme la vraie vie, je ne sais pas trop comment l'expliquer, mais je ressentais très fortement à l'époque. You know, it wasn't really like real life, I don't really know how to explain it, but I felt very strongly at the time. 0:35:20.12 --> 0:35:34.832 Gigi Kaur Le fait que si je comprends bien, vous dites que dans le groupe de de littérature, c'était plus les idées qui parlaient, c'était plus des gens qui communiquaient, mais au lieu de faire des actions, puis même les communications ont été defois, irréalistes. The fact that if I understand correctly, you're saying that in the literature group, it was more the ideas that spoke, it was more the people who communicated, but instead of taking action, even the communications were sometimes unrealistic. 0:35:35.482 --> 0:35:43.132 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça, alors que pour moi quand j'étais adolescente, dans mon village, j'étais très engagée dans la Communauté. Yeah right, whereas for me when I was a teenager, in my village, I was very involved in the Community. 0:35:43.582 --> 0:35:46.172 Hélène Goulet Mais parents l'étaient, et moi je l'étais aussi. But my parents were, and I was too. 0:35:46.182 --> 0:35:51.222 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, n’y avait rien dans mon village, il n’y avait rien, rien pour distraire les jeunes. I started a youth club, there was nothing in my village, there was nothing, nothing to entertain young people. 0:35:52.52 --> 0:35:59.682 Hélène Goulet Euh Ben j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, j'organisais des danses surveillées par les parents, des concerts. Well, I started a youth club, organizing dances supervised by parents and concerts. 0:35:59.692 --> 0:36:4.472 Hélène Goulet J'ai organisé toutes sortes d'affaires, des orchestres qui venaient pour jouer pour nous, vous pouvez danser. I've organized all kinds of affairs, orchestras coming to play for us, you can dance. 0:36:6.232 --> 0:36:12.622 Hélène Goulet J'ai vraiment été très engagé mais quand je suis arrivée à Ottawa, Ben là, il fallait que je travaille, fallait que j'aille à l'école. I was really committed, but when I arrived in Ottawa, Ben, I had to work, I had to go to school. 0:36:12.632 --> 0:36:18.422 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je n’ai pas fait beaucoup de choses en action sociale moi-même pendant que j'étais à l'université. You know, I didn't do much social work myself while I was at university. 0:36:20.282 --> 0:36:27.932 Hélène Goulet C'est venu, c'est revenu plus tard dans ma vie quand ça avec les enfants aussi, évidemment, c'est m'appliquer à l'école. It came, it came back later in my life when that with the kids too, obviously, it's applied to me at school. 0:36:27.942 --> 0:36:29.62 Hélène Goulet M'appliquer tu sais? Apply myself, you know? 0:36:29.72 --> 0:36:38.272 Hélène Goulet J'ai suivi de mes enfants comme ça, puis après, évidemment, maintenant je suis très engagée dans un dans un en bénévolat. Then, of course, I'm now very, very, very involved in volunteer work. 0:36:38.282 --> 0:36:43.182 Hélène Goulet C'est ça qui m'ont que je fais au moins un débutant, mais au moins débutant. That's why I'm at least a beginner, but at least a beginner. 0:36:58.162 --> 0:36:58.882 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:36:44.322 --> 0:36:59.902 Gigi Kaur Et vous dites que quand vous étiez à l'université d'Ottawa, vous êtes tellement occupé à travailler, à survivre, à gérer tout, à être responsable que vous n’avez pas eu le temps d'être très social dans la Communauté, mais ça, c'est venu dans les périodes fait qu'avec vos enfants, puis après plus tard. And you say that when you were at the University of Ottawa, you were so busy working, surviving, managing everything, being responsible that you didn't have the time to be very social in the Community, but that came in the periods done with your children, then later on. 0:37:0.322 --> 0:37:4.482 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça avant, avant l'université, puis après. Yeah, that's before, before college, then after. 0:37:4.552 --> 0:37:8.512 Hélène Goulet Après que les enfants sont nés aussi, je me suis impliquée dans certaines choses. After the children were born too, I got involved in a few things. 0:37:8.722 --> 0:37:14.942 Hélène Goulet Puis, après que les enfants ont été grands, Ben là, ma vie a complètement changé en termes de dans quoi je m'explique ça? Ouais. Then, after the kids were grown up, well, my life changed completely in terms of how do I explain this? Yeah. 0:37:14.912 --> 0:37:17.582 Gigi Kaur OK c'est OK, c'est compréhensible. Okay, that's understandable. 0:37:18.92 --> 0:37:22.12 Gigi Kaur Alors le prof, je vais faire un petit suivi dans ça? So, teacher, I'm going to do a little follow-up on this? 0:37:22.382 --> 0:37:29.962 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure va génération, pensait-elle, que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées? To what extent did your generation feel that your parents' notions of gender, family and relationships were outdated? 0:37:30.332 --> 0:37:36.102 Gigi Kaur Je pense que vous êtes déjà répondu, mais je voulais savoir plus sur ce sujet, si ça ne vous dérange pas. I think you've already answered, but I wanted to know more about this subject, if you don't mind. 0:37:36.422 --> 0:37:37.452 Hélène Goulet Oui, non, ça va. Yes, no, I'm fine. 0:37:37.762 --> 0:37:54.792 Hélène Goulet Euh oui, il y avait, il y avait cette ce sens que nos familles, nos parents étaient traditionnelles comme je n’aurais pas pu amener un homme, un jeune homme chez mes parents, puis dormir dans la même Chambre, ça aurait été impensable, même après que j'ai rencontré mon mari pendant 5 ans. Uh yes, there was, there was this sense that our families, our parents were traditional like I wouldn't have been able to bring a man, a young man to my parents, and then sleep in the same room, that would have been unthinkable, even after I'd met my husband for 5 years. 0:37:54.802 --> 0:37:58.862 Hélène Goulet On s'est vu pendant 5 ans, puis il n’y a jamais dormi dans la même chambre que moi chez mes parents. We saw each other for 5 years, then he never slept in the same room as me at my parents' house. 0:37:59.902 --> 0:38:7.142 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai un peu ouvert la voie pour le reste de la famille, toujours comme ça, les aînés ouvrent la voie pour le reste de la famille. But I kind of paved the way for the rest of the family, always like that, the elders pave the way for the rest of the family. 0:38:7.412 --> 0:38:10.112 Hélène Goulet Avec le temps, les mentalités ont changé aussi. Over time, attitudes have changed too. 0:38:10.122 --> 0:38:22.402 Hélène Goulet Mes parents pensaient plus de la même façon non plus, mais je me souviens que ma mère m'avait dit, quand j'ai commencé à enseigner que J’Habitais dans mon propre appartement dans une autre ville, puis elle m'avait dit. My parents didn't think the same way either, but I remember my mother telling me when I started teaching that I lived in my own apartment in another city. 0:38:23.942 --> 0:38:33.452 Hélène Goulet J'espère que tu ne feras rien pour faire honte à ton père, puis là je suis parti à rire, puis je lui ai dit cette conversation-là est arrivé 5 ans trop tard. I hope you won't do anything to shame your father, then I started laughing, then I told him this conversation came 5 years too late. 0:38:40.142 --> 0:38:44.882 Hélène Goulet Mais ma mère n’était pas extrêmement traditionnelle, mais quand même, c'est produit. But my mother wasn't extremely traditional, but still, it's produced. 0:38:44.892 --> 0:38:45.972 Hélène Goulet Sa génération. His generation. 0:38:46.522 --> 0:38:49.332 Hélène Goulet Euh même chose pour la contraception. The same goes for contraception. 0:38:49.342 --> 0:38:57.422 Hélène Goulet Mes parents ont beaucoup souffert de parce qu'il était catholique Romain qu’il n’avait pas le droit d'utiliser la contraception, ma mère a failli mourir à cause de ça. My parents suffered a lot because he was a Roman Catholic and wasn't allowed to use contraception; my mother almost died because of it. 0:38:58.482 --> 0:39:2.972 Hélène Goulet Euh moi j'étais très consciente de ça, j'étais très révoltée contre l'Église. I was very aware of that, and I was very rebellious against the Church. 0:39:2.982 --> 0:39:5.332 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être très révoltée contre l'Église. I began to feel very rebellious towards the Church. 0:39:5.342 --> 0:39:15.722 Hélène Goulet J'étais très jeune, j'avais peut-être 13h quand j'ai commencé à vraiment avoir les gros dans le, les dogmes, puis les la théologie. I was very young, I was maybe 13 when I really started to get the big in the, the dogmas, then the theology. 0:39:15.732 --> 0:39:16.962 Hélène Goulet Là, tu sais la moralité. There, you know there morality. 0:39:18.932 --> 0:39:19.722 Hélène Goulet Catholique romaine. Roman Catholic. 0:39:20.882 --> 0:39:39.522 Hélène Goulet Puis, éventuellement, j'ai quitté l'Église catholique romaine, puis, mais j'ai toujours été pratiquante fait que j'ai choisi d'aller dans des églises où il y avait plus d'actions sociales justement, comme l'Église unie où j'ai passé 10h, puis après ça, j'ai je suis allée dans l'Église anglicane, puis à Ottawa. Then, eventually, I left the Roman Catholic Church, but I've always been a churchgoer, so I chose to go to churches where there was more social action, like the United Church, where I spent 10 hours, and then I went to the Anglican Church, then to Ottawa. 0:39:39.532 --> 0:39:53.462 Hélène Goulet L'Église anglicane est très engagée socialement, cette porte beaucoup, beaucoup de de causes comme le centre 454 well cornerstone, c'est des créations du diocèse anglican d'Ottawa. The Anglican Church is very socially committed, it supports many, many causes such as the 454 well cornerstone center, which is a creation of the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa. 0:39:53.472 --> 0:39:59.312 Hélène Goulet Fait que je me suis appliquée plus à ce niveau-là fait que oui, il y avait. The fact that I applied myself more at that level meant that yes, there was. 0:39:59.352 --> 0:40:3.292 Hélène Goulet Oui, on trouvait que nos parents étaient très vieux jeu. Yes, we thought our parents were very old-fashioned. 0:40:5.252 --> 0:40:22.362 Hélène Goulet Euh, très traditionnel, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté mes parents, tu sais, j'avais des conversations, je n’étais pas toujours d'accord avec eux, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté que j'étais dans leur maison quand j'étais là, puis que je suivais les règles. Uh, very traditional, but at the same time I always respected my parents, you know, I had conversations, I didn't always agree with them, but at the same time I always respected that I was in their house when I was there, and that I followed the rules. 0:40:22.412 --> 0:40:23.152 Hélène Goulet 13 ans. 13 years old. 0:40:23.192 --> 0:40:27.12 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais à l'heure, mais ma vie en dehors de la, c'était ma vie à moi. When I was on time, but my life outside of it was my own. 0:40:28.642 --> 0:40:35.942 Gigi Kaur OK, c'est vraiment intéressant que vous ayez dit à propos de religion parce que je dois même maintenant? OK, that's really interesting what you said about religion because I have to even now? 0:40:35.952 --> 0:40:49.92 Gigi Kaur Les gens dénoncent et il va aller dans un autre ou sinon ils arrêtent complètement mais y a plusieurs choses que vous dites qu'on va maintenant aussi il n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est juste là le temps qui a changé, c'est tout. People denounce and he'll go to another or else they stop altogether but there are several things you say we're going to now too there's not much that's changed, it's just there the weather has changed, that's all. 0:40:51.582 --> 0:40:52.452 Gigi Kaur Exactement. Exactly. 0:40:49.592 --> 0:40:53.582 Hélène Goulet Et ça change plus c'est pareil, malheureusement souvent, mais en tout cas. And it changes the more it's the same, unfortunately often, but in any case. 0:40:53.992 --> 0:40:55.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, à propos de ça. Yeah, about that. 0:40:57.642 --> 0:41:5.312 Gigi Kaur Vu, avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique et quittable et qui répondait aux besoins des citoyens? Did you feel that the political system was democratic and manageable, and that it met the needs of citizens? 0:41:5.322 --> 0:41:7.662 Gigi Kaur On voit ça clairement, ce débat même aujourd? We can see it clearly, this debate even today. 0:41:7.672 --> 0:41:11.662 Gigi Kaur Hui, est-ce que vous voyez ce débat aussi en 1970? Hui, do you also see this debate in 1970? 0:41:12.372 --> 0:41:15.592 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'avoir eu des conversations comme ça. I don't really remember having conversations like that. 0:41:15.602 --> 0:41:22.132 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas très politique à l'époque, ça m'a pris du temps pour devenir plus politique. I wasn't very political at the time, so it took me a while to become more political. 0:41:22.142 --> 0:41:26.502 Hélène Goulet C'est probablement quand j'ai commencé à faire le droit, puis le MDE, où j'ai été plus là. It was probably when I started law school, then MDE, that I was more there. 0:41:26.512 --> 0:41:33.292 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être plus obligé d'une certaine façon de m'intéresser à la politique. I began to feel more compelled in some way to take an interest in politics. 0:41:33.622 --> 0:41:42.512 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a eu toute l'avènement de la Charte des droits, parce que moi, j'ai quand j'étais en droit, c'était le rapatriement de la Constitution 1982. Then there was the whole advent of the Charter of Rights, because when I was in law school, it was the repatriation of the 1982 Constitution. 0:41:42.552 --> 0:41:51.552 Hélène Goulet Moi, j'ai commencé mon droit à 82 et puis j'ai fini à 85 avec l'avènement de la Charte des droits, l'achat de l'égalité. I started law school in '82 and finished in '85 with the advent of the Charter of Rights, the purchase of equality. 0:41:52.232 --> 0:42:3.142 Hélène Goulet Alors quand j'ai commencé à travailler au ministère de la justice, j'ai travaillé beaucoup, beaucoup avec l'achat, avec les droits à l'égalité, fait que je suis devenue pas mal politicien, ouais. So, when I started working at the Ministry of Justice, I worked a lot, a lot with purchasing, with equality rights, so I became quite a politician, yeah. 0:42:5.352 --> 0:42:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:3.882 --> 0:42:11.82 Gigi Kaur OKOK mais vous avez dit en même temps que ça changeait un peu parce qu'il y avait eu des changements politiques aussi, comme la charte et cetera. OKOK but you said at the same time that it was changing a bit because there had been political changes too, like the charter et cetera. 0:42:14.192 --> 0:42:25.172 Hélène Goulet Ouais, y a eu une plus grande conscientisation, je pense de des droits à l'égalité dans la danse, c'était plus dans les années quatre-vingt, mais c'est sûr qu'il y a eu tout un. Yeah, there was a greater awareness, I think, of equality rights in the eighties, but it was definitely a whole thing. 0:42:31.172 --> 0:42:31.372 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:42:27.242 --> 0:42:32.862 Hélène Goulet Que tout ce qui s'est passé des années 70A, mené à ça aussi tu ne sais rien qui arrive comme ça? That everything that happened in the 70s and 70s led to this, too - you don't know anything that just happens, do you? 0:42:32.872 --> 0:42:39.122 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'est toujours une évolution, une sociale, tu sais qui fait que l'évolution sociale. It's always an evolution, a social evolution, you know. 0:42:39.132 --> 0:42:50.932 Hélène Goulet Arrivé avant de changement à la loi, la plupart du temps, c'est parce qu'il y a une pression, y a une pression de la base, c'est, c'est, ça n’arrive pas par en haut, ça arrive par en bas, même si on ne s’en rend pas trop compte, c'est ça? Most of the time, it's because there's pressure, there's grassroots pressure, it's, it doesn't come from the top, it comes from the bottom, even if you're not too aware of it, right? 0:42:51.942 --> 0:42:59.592 Gigi Kaur Ouais en même chose, on voit ça clairement aujourd'hui aussi, la pression d'en bas qui force les politiciens. Yeah, but at the same time, we're seeing this clearly today too, the pressure from below that forces politicians. 0:42:59.872 --> 0:43:0.62 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:59.602 --> 0:43:4.902 Gigi Kaur Le gouvernement à changer leurs documents, et cetera fait qu'on voit clairement la même chose. The government has changed their documents, et cetera, so that we can clearly see the same thing. 0:43:1.372 --> 0:43:14.822 Hélène Goulet Oui, y a on le voit avec la Cour suprême aussi, la Cour suprême, c'est vraiment intéressant parce qu'à l'époque où je faisais mon droit, c'était Borel, le skin qui était le juge en chef de la Cour suprême. It's really interesting because when I was doing my law degree, it was Borel, la skin, who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. 0:43:29.792 --> 0:43:30.82 Gigi Kaur Non? No? 0:43:15.282 --> 0:43:33.732 Hélène Goulet C'était un homme de la gauche était très progressif, très progressif, au point où il était souvent le jugement dissident avec la majorité était ailleurs, n’était pas rendu là encore. He was a man of the left was very progressive, very progressive, to the point where he was often dissenting judgment with the majority was elsewhere, was not rendered there yet. 0:43:34.62 --> 0:43:35.842 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il écrivait des jugements. Then he wrote judgments. 0:43:37.232 --> 0:43:38.842 Hélène Goulet Complètement plus à gauche. Completely more to the left. 0:43:40.352 --> 0:43:58.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec le temps, en l'espace de 10 ans, les jugements dissidents de borella skins sont devenus les jugements majoritaires de la Cour suprême, fait qu'il y a eu une grande influence, mais ça a pris quelques années avant que là, là aussi, le gouvernement a commencé à nommer des juges plus à gauche. And then over time, in the space of 10 years, the dissenting judgments of borella skins became the majority judgments of the Supreme Court, so there was a big influence, but it took a few years before there, too, the government started appointing more left-leaning judges. 0:43:58.772 --> 0:44:0.652 Hélène Goulet Aussi, comme il y a eu Bertha Wilson. Also, as there was Bertha Wilson. 0:44:2.192 --> 0:44:3.612 Hélène Goulet Puis il a commencé à voir des femmes. Then he started seeing women. 0:44:5.562 --> 0:44:10.252 Hélène Goulet T'es avec les femmes, on est devenu beaucoup plus à gauche, beaucoup plus à gauche. With women, we've become much more left-wing, much more left-wing. 0:44:10.262 --> 0:44:14.292 Hélène Goulet Les femmes étaient, les femmes étaient beaucoup plus socialement. Women were women were much more social. 0:44:17.82 --> 0:44:22.92 Hélène Goulet Consciente en général, mais bon, laskin a été. Conscious in general, but hey, laskin was. 0:44:22.162 --> 0:44:26.272 Hélène Goulet Puis texel aussi, ça a été des hommes vraiment exceptionnels. And Texel, too, was a truly exceptional group of men. 0:44:26.642 --> 0:44:32.12 Hélène Goulet Puis bureau Wilson fait qu'il y a eu y a eu tout un mouvement, là vers la gauche, plus vers la gauche. Then Wilson's office saw a whole movement to the left, more to the left. 0:44:32.22 --> 0:44:39.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, maintenant, c'est plus central centre je dirais, mais en tout cas ça c'était vraiment intéressant à vivre. You know, now it's more centrally located, I'd say, but in any case, it was really interesting to experience. 0:44:41.512 --> 0:44:47.642 Gigi Kaur Vous dites plus à gauche, c'était tout de suite après le 2e Guerre mondiale, ça a pris du temps d'aller sur la gauche. You say more to the left, but that was right after the 2nd World War, so it took a while to move to the left. 0:44:47.792 --> 0:44:49.662 Hélène Goulet Oh, ça a pris du temps, mais c'est. Oh, it took a while, but it's. 0:44:49.672 --> 0:44:57.762 Hélène Goulet C'est à mesure que les droits individuels ont pris de l'importance parce qu'avant la 2e Guerre mondiale, il y avait la déclaration des droits. As time went on, individual rights gained in importance, because before the 2nd World War, there was the Bill of Rights. 0:44:58.792 --> 0:45:3.992 Hélène Goulet Euh, qui avait été passée comme en 1949 après la 2e Guerre mondiale? Er, which had been passed as in 1949 after the 2nd World War? 0:45:4.2 --> 0:45:6.722 Hélène Goulet Je pense, tu le saurais mieux que moi? I think you'd know better than me? 0:45:7.182 --> 0:45:14.122 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis c'est à partir de là que l'avènement des droits individuels a commencé à devenir plus important. Uh, then the advent of individual rights started to become more important. 0:45:14.132 --> 0:45:17.672 Hélène Goulet C'est le rôle des femmes, des femmes qui avaient travaillé pendant la guerre. This is the role of women, women who had worked during the war. 0:45:17.682 --> 0:45:19.232 Hélène Goulet Voulait pas retourner dans leur cuisine. Didn't want to go back to their kitchen. 0:45:21.252 --> 0:45:23.442 Hélène Goulet Y avait goûter à gagner de l'argent. Y had a taste for making money. 0:45:23.572 --> 0:45:29.672 Hélène Goulet Il y avait goûter à être indépendant parce que les maris étaient partis à la guerre, fait que là, il y a eu un changement social sais. There was a taste of independence because the husbands had gone off to war, so there was a definite social change. 0:45:29.682 --> 0:45:34.252 Hélène Goulet On l'a vu avec je ne sais pas si t'as j'ai écouté la série Madden. We saw him with I don't know if you've listened to the Madden series. 0:45:37.562 --> 0:45:39.492 Hélène Goulet Ses unis, on l'a vu dans cette série-là. These unis, we saw it in that series there. 0:45:39.502 --> 0:45:46.432 Hélène Goulet Ben la même chose arrivait au Canada un petit peu en retard, ça fait qu'il y a eu beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup de de changements. Well, the same thing happened in Canada a little late, so there were many, many, many changes. 0:45:46.442 --> 0:45:51.52 Hélène Goulet C'est pour ça que par le temps que moi je t'ai adolescente puis jeune adulte. That's why, over the years, I've had you as a teenager and then as a young adult. 0:45:51.62 --> 0:45:58.492 Hélène Goulet Le côté féministe, il est devenu pas mal fort, pas mal, pas mal fort, tu sais, y avait beaucoup de mouvements féministes à l'époque. The feminist side, it became quite strong, quite strong, quite strong, you know, there were a lot of feminist movements at the time. 0:45:58.502 --> 0:46:6.952 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens, il y avait eu, y a eu la formation de plusieurs organismes féministes de cette époque. I remember the formation of several feminist organizations at the time. 0:46:6.962 --> 0:46:9.602 Hélène Goulet Là aussi, Wen, comment ça s'appelait? Here too, Wen, what was it called? 0:46:11.122 --> 0:46:18.532 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une grosse manifestation à Ottawa, ce n’est pas une manifestation, c'est une comme une espèce de d'énorme conférence. There was a big demonstration in Ottawa, it's not a demonstration, it's like a huge conference. 0:46:18.682 --> 0:46:29.442 Hélène Goulet C'était à cette époque-là que c'est arrivé, je n’ai pas participé mais je me souviens qu'à cette époque-là, dans les années 70, qui a vraiment ça bouge beaucoup au niveau du féminisme. I didn't take part, but I remember that at that time, in the '70s, there was a lot of movement in feminism. 0:46:32.772 --> 0:46:48.62 Gigi Kaur Ouais intéressant, je trouve ça très intéressant car clairement quand vous dites les choses dans ma tête, c'est comme en train de relier avec Aujourd hui puis comme je l'ai dit plusieurs fois ça parle vraiment changer, comment on va beaucoup plus de de féministes donc avec leurs organismes. Yeah interesting, I find it very interesting because clearly when you say things in my head, it's like connecting with Today then as I've said several times it really talks about change, how we're going to a lot more of feminists so with their organizations. 0:46:48.392 --> 0:46:56.312 Gigi Kaur Mais cette fois-ci, c'est plus les, les féministes avec la peau plus brune, c'est là, la couleur, et cetera pense ça. But this time, it's more the, the feminists with the browner skin, it's the, the color, et cetera think it. 0:46:56.312 --> 0:46:56.472 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:46:56.322 --> 0:47:1.472 Gigi Kaur Là, c'est plus les féministes blanches, je ne veux pas dire Blanche, mais tu sais, c'est la réalité. Here, it's more the white feminists, I don't want to say white, but you know, it's reality. 0:46:59.112 --> 0:47:3.972 Hélène Goulet Ouais non c'est vrai non, non, c'est vrai, c'est vrai tout à fait vrai. Yeah, no it's true no, no, it's true, it's true absolutely true. 0:47:3.982 --> 0:47:40.792 Hélène Goulet Il y avait très peu de de femmes non ohh racialiser mais femme autochtone, tu sais, y avait très peu à l'époque dans les mouvements féministes, mais c'est moi ce que je remarque, c'est dans le monde entier, c'est que en Amérique du Nord, comme la conscience féministe, c'est beaucoup plus avancée que puis en Europe aussi que dans d'autres pays, c'est des pays moins développés économiquement ou des pays où le rôle des femmes est encore très traditionnel pour les femmes sont encore. There were very few women who weren't ohh racialized but Aboriginal women, you know, there were very few at the time in the feminist movements, but that's what I notice, it's all over the world, it's that in North America, like feminist consciousness, it's much more advanced than then in Europe too than in other countries, it's less economically developed countries or countries where the role of women is still very traditional for women are still. 0:47:41.122 --> 0:47:45.612 Hélène Goulet Tu sais extrêmement, mais on voit qu'avec le temps, l'influence. You know extremely, but we see that with time, influence. 0:47:45.682 --> 0:47:50.522 Hélène Goulet Lance de des pays où les femmes ont plus de droit. Launches countries where women have more rights. 0:47:59.532 --> 0:47:59.752 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:47:50.992 --> 0:48:5.662 Hélène Goulet Il y a comme Bleeding, tu sais, tiens, on voit en Iran en ce moment, tu sais les femmes, puis les hommes, jeunes hommes qui manifestent avec les femmes, c'est ça, c'est, c'est assez nouveau, ça? It's like Bleeding, you know, you see in Iran right now, you know women, then men, young men demonstrating with women, it's that, it's, it's pretty new, that? 0:48:6.712 --> 0:48:10.392 Hélène Goulet Euh, c'est assez nouveau, ce n’est pas juste les femmes toutes seules qui se battent. It's not just women fighting on their own. 0:48:10.402 --> 0:48:12.802 Hélène Goulet Comme en Iran, les jeunes hommes sont là aussi. As in Iran, the young men are there too. 0:48:13.32 --> 0:48:21.992 Hélène Goulet C'est avec les femmes dans les manifestations fait qu'on si on voit qu'il y a des changements, mais c'est tellement lent, tu sais, c'est tellement décourageant par moment, mais. It's with the women in the demonstrations that we if we see that there are changes, but it's so slow, you know, it's so discouraging at times, but. 0:48:23.942 --> 0:48:29.92 Hélène Goulet En Afghanistan test tellement triste ce qui se passe, c'est tellement horrible, tu sais, c'est. In Afghanistan test so sad what's going on, it's so horrible, you know, it's. 0:48:30.942 --> 0:48:33.462 Hélène Goulet Ouais mais les femmes ont goûté à autre chose. Yeah, but women have tasted something else. 0:48:34.632 --> 0:48:42.842 Hélène Goulet Puis, le jour où elles vont avoir la possibilité, elles vont vous vouloir ça encore elles le veulent maintenant, elles ne peuvent pas l'avoir maintenant, mais elles le veulent maintenant. Then, the day they get the chance, they're going to want it again, they want it now, they can't have it now, but they want it now. 0:48:42.852 --> 0:48:54.782 Hélène Goulet En Arabie saoudite, on a vu qu'il y a eu un petit peu de mouvement, c'est lent, c'est extrêmement lent mais en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire maintenant, c'est quoi en Amérique du Nord? In Saudi Arabia, we've seen a little movement, it's slow, it's extremely slow, but in Saudi Arabia, women can drive now, what's it like in North America? 0:48:54.792 --> 0:48:59.672 Hélène Goulet C'est comme en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire une auto maintenant. It's like in Saudi Arabia, women can drive a car now. 0:49:0.152 --> 0:49:3.452 Gigi Kaur Ouais, mais c'était en 2018, je pense que j'étais en secondaire. Yeah, but that was 2018, I think I was in high school. 0:49:3.462 --> 0:49:5.182 Gigi Kaur Ouais, j'étais au secondaire. Yeah, I was in high school. 0:49:5.192 --> 0:49:6.92 Gigi Kaur Enfin en ce temps-là. At least in those days. 0:49:3.152 --> 0:49:7.392 Hélène Goulet Oui, oui, c'est assez, ça, c'est récent hein? Yes, yes, that's enough, it's recent, isn't it? 0:49:8.932 --> 0:49:15.212 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que c'est, c'est l'heure, les, le progrès est extrêmement lent, mais en même temps il est là. That makes it, it's time, the, progress is extremely slow, but at the same time it's there. 0:49:15.322 --> 0:49:19.902 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a comme une sorte d'évolution de la conscience qui se fait très doucement. You know, there's a kind of evolution of consciousness that takes place very slowly. 0:49:21.442 --> 0:49:24.152 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a beaucoup de de recul. Then there's a lot of hindsight. 0:49:25.762 --> 0:49:27.532 Hélène Goulet Comme on l'a vu en Afghanistan. As we saw in Afghanistan. 0:49:27.972 --> 0:49:29.412 Hélène Goulet Et toi, c'est quoi ton background? What's your background? 0:49:31.22 --> 0:49:32.52 Gigi Kaur C'est quoi mon background? What's my background? 0:49:31.32 --> 0:49:34.572 Hélène Goulet Si c'est tu veux me le dire? If do you want to tell me? 0:49:38.92 --> 0:49:38.422 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:32.62 --> 0:49:41.842 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci à mes parents, mes parents sont open jaby fait que noir indienne on dit punjabi, parce qu'on a une situation avec l'Inde, mais ça, c'est une autre histoire, complète. My parents don't have any worries, they're open jaby, which means they're black Indian, Punjabi, because we have a situation with India, but that's another story, complete. 0:49:40.632 --> 0:49:42.792 Hélène Goulet Ouais, ça c'est. Yeah, that's it. 0:49:42.352 --> 0:49:47.702 Gigi Kaur Moi, je moi, je suis née aux États-Unis, je suis venu à l'âge de 10 ans à Montréal. I, myself, was born in the United States and came to Montreal at the age of 10. 0:49:47.992 --> 0:49:48.262 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:48.112 --> 0:49:52.2 Gigi Kaur C'est pour ça que mon français est plus anglophone, mais des fois je fais des fautes et lever, mais tu sais? That's why my French is more Anglophone, but sometimes I make mistakes and get up, but you know? 0:49:51.972 --> 0:49:56.202 Hélène Goulet Tu passes très bien, tu parles très bien, je t'encourage à continuer parce que tu parles très bien. You pass very well, you speak very well, I encourage you to continue because you speak very well. 0:49:56.852 --> 0:50:0.142 Gigi Kaur Merci beaucoup, mais ça je ne suis pas déjà à la base américaine. Thanks a lot, but I'm not at the American base yet. 0:50:0.152 --> 0:50:2.102 Gigi Kaur Après puis après canadienne. After and after Canadian. 0:50:2.652 --> 0:50:3.552 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:50:4.32 --> 0:50:6.902 Hélène Goulet Ouais, j'ai une amie très proche qui est interne. Yeah, I have a very close friend who's an intern. 0:50:7.52 --> 0:50:9.242 Hélène Goulet Elle n’est pas née en Inde, est née ici, mais ça, ça. She wasn't born in India, she was born here, but this, this. 0:50:9.252 --> 0:50:12.682 Hélène Goulet Famille séparent, je pense que ses parents sont nés en Inde. Family separated; I think his parents were born in India. 0:50:12.692 --> 0:50:15.62 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est pareil, on est en Inde. Yes, it's the same, we're in India. 0:50:13.392 --> 0:50:15.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, c'est ça qui est plus. Yeah, that's what's more. 0:50:15.672 --> 0:50:22.302 Gigi Kaur Plusieurs Indiens sont les parents sont, viens, font des enfants ici puis après ils font grandir. Many Indians are parents are, come, make children here then afterwards they make grow up. 0:50:22.312 --> 0:50:23.722 Gigi Kaur Et de génération en génération. And from generation to generation. 0:50:23.782 --> 0:50:26.102 Gigi Kaur Je suis certain que vous voyez. I'm sure you can see. 0:50:29.252 --> 0:50:29.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:26.112 --> 0:50:31.702 Gigi Kaur British Colombia y a beaucoup d'Indiens, beaucoup Chinois là-bas, qu'ils étaient là depuis des années et des années, des années. British Colombia there are a lot of Indians, a lot of Chinese there, they've been there for years and years and years. 0:50:32.192 --> 0:50:32.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:32.132 --> 0:50:38.752 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, ça devient un lin de Chine et là ça devient un homme territoire de l'Inde et Chine, et je trouve ça très drôle. Now it's becoming a China flax and now it's becoming a man from India and China, and I think that's very funny. 0:50:44.642 --> 0:50:50.812 Gigi Kaur Ohh prochaine question après y a quelques minutes, je sais, c'est vraiment long, si jamais t'as besoin quelque chose de ce mois, savoir. Ohh next question after a few minutes, I know, it's really long, if you ever need something this month, know. 0:50:50.732 --> 0:50:55.632 Hélène Goulet Ça veut dire moi juste, je vais juste aller allumer mon four parce que j'ai quelque chose à faire cuire. That just means me, I'm just going to go turn on my oven because I've got something to bake. 0:50:55.642 --> 0:50:59.832 Hélène Goulet J'attendais 11h00 pour parce que ça coûte, ça coûte moins cher après 11h. I waited until 11:00 because it costs less after 11:00. 0:51:0.932 --> 0:51:1.532 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci. No worries. 0:51:15.782 --> 0:51:19.802 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je pense que je vais en profiter pour aller aux toilettes, OK, je reviens. Yeah, I think I'm going to use the bathroom, OK, I'll be right back. 0:51:19.362 --> 0:51:20.392 Gigi Kaur Parfait n’y a pas de souci. Perfect, no worries. 0:52:7.712 --> 0:52:7.942 Hélène Goulet OK. Ok 0:52:9.512 --> 0:52:10.162 Gigi Kaur Parfait. Perfect. 0:52:11.542 --> 0:52:15.162 Gigi Kaur Alors, il y a 2 questions qui restent, puis après je vous laisse, j'essaye. So, there are 2 questions left, then I'll leave you to it, I'll try. 0:52:15.172 --> 0:52:46.582 Gigi Kaur On a parlé pour des heures, des heures, des heures, mais je sais que vous avez plein de choses à faire, que je vous laisserai dans quelques minutes si ça ne vous dérange pas en la prochaine question, les historiens de la culture ont aimé affirmer que les l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation des départements, la division de de l'idéologie de l'amour libre, on modifie les relations entre femmes et les pratiques d'amoureuses. We've talked for hours and hours and hours, but I know you've got plenty to do, so I'll leave you in a few minutes if you don't mind the next question, cultural historians have liked to assert that the introduction of the contraceptive pill, the legalization of departments, the division of the ideology of free love, altered relations between women and the practices of lovemaking. 0:52:46.592 --> 0:52:53.702 Gigi Kaur Au début des années 1970, alors la question, c'est, êtes-vous d'accord avec cette information? In the early 1970s, so the question is, do you agree with this information? 0:52:54.722 --> 0:52:55.852 Hélène Goulet Probablement, oui. Probably, yes. 0:53:0.322 --> 0:53:8.722 Hélène Goulet C'est vrai que la traduction de la période moi je n’ai jamais pris ça, mais il y avait beaucoup de conversations sur l'avortement, tout ça, puis ça vraiment. It's true that the translation of the period I never took that, but there were a lot of conversations about abortion, all that, and then that really. 0:53:11.422 --> 0:53:21.772 Hélène Goulet Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 4 vingts, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 20, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. 0:53:21.782 --> 0:53:32.362 Hélène Goulet Parce que ça s'est rendu en Cour suprême, il y a eu Morgan Taller, y a eu tout ça et moi j'ai, j'ai été témoin de tout ça parce que j'étais avocate à ce moment-là. Because it went to the Supreme Court, there was Morgan Taller, there was all that and I, I witnessed all that because I was a lawyer at the time. 0:53:35.312 --> 0:53:39.972 Hélène Goulet Mais c'est, c'est sûr que la contraception et ce n’est pas juste la contraception, c'est elle. But it's, it's definitely contraception and it's not just contraception, it's her. 0:53:39.982 --> 0:53:46.422 Hélène Goulet Mélange de à quoi réception, qui devenait disponible, mais aussi là, les mentalités qui avaient changé. A mixture of what reception, which was becoming available, but also the, the mentalities that had changed. 0:53:47.432 --> 0:53:49.112 Hélène Goulet Y a tu sais tout le courant féministe? You know the whole feminist movement? 0:53:51.562 --> 0:53:57.782 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que l'avènement de la d'une contraception fiable aide le mouvement féministe. This is what the advent of reliable contraception has done for the feminist movement. 0:53:57.792 --> 0:54:0.272 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe, c'était là quand même. But the feminist movement was there all the same. 0:54:0.542 --> 0:54:2.392 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'était un parallèle. It's, it was a parallel. 0:54:2.402 --> 0:54:7.82 Hélène Goulet D'une certaine façon, c'est ceux que les femmes qui pouvaient prendre la pilule. In a way, they were the ones who could take the pill. 0:54:9.892 --> 0:54:15.122 Hélène Goulet Qu'il apprenait était probablement avec plus de liberté. That he was learning was probably with more freedom. 0:54:15.132 --> 0:54:16.932 Hélène Goulet Tu sais que celle qui ne la prenait pas? You know the one that didn't? 0:54:20.442 --> 0:54:25.102 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai l'impression que c'est vraiment en tout cas c'est juste ça, c'est une impression. But I have the impression that it's really just that, it's just an impression. 0:54:25.112 --> 0:54:29.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une opinion que c'est un peu en parallèle, je ne peux pas prouver ça. It's an opinion that it's a bit parallel, I can't prove that. 0:54:29.822 --> 0:54:35.942 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe avait vraiment pas, peut-être aidé aussi au développement de la contraception. But the feminist movement really hadn't, perhaps also helped the development of contraception. 0:54:35.952 --> 0:54:40.302 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a peut-être, il y a eu du euh. You know, there may have been, there may have been some uh. 0:54:40.542 --> 0:54:42.972 Hélène Goulet Une chose à nourri l'autre tu sais, c'est un peu comme. One thing fed the other, you know, it's kind of like. 0:54:45.812 --> 0:55:7.252 Hélène Goulet Le fait qu'il y avait la pilule contraceptive, ça aide à des femmes à limiter le nombre d'enfants qu'elles avaient, ça les a aidés à pouvoir travailler, ça aide les employeurs à voir les femmes comme fiables sur le marché du travail parce qu'elle elle aurait plus d'enfants qu'il y a eu tout tu sais tout ça, ce influençait un l'autre. The fact that there was the contraceptive pill, it helped women limit the number of children they had, it helped them be able to work, it helped employers see women as reliable on the job market because she would have more children than there were all you know all that, it influenced one another. 0:55:7.262 --> 0:55:16.452 Hélène Goulet Finalement, ce n’est pas une chose qui a fait que tout ça est arrivé, c'est vraiment y avait un mouvement social, il y avait. Finally, it's not one thing that made all this happen, it's really that there was a social movement, there was. 0:55:16.102 --> 0:55:18.542 Gigi Kaur Il y a des choses qui accumulées pour ce moment-là. There are things built up for that moment. 0:55:19.92 --> 0:55:20.892 Hélène Goulet Ouais, absolument ouais. Yeah, absolutely yeah. 0:55:20.942 --> 0:55:22.202 Hélène Goulet Y a eu toutes sortes de choses. There were all kinds of things. 0:55:22.782 --> 0:55:30.142 Gigi Kaur OKOK bah même chose maintenant, je pense que les constructifs sont très présents. OKOK bah same thing now, I think the constructivists are very present. 0:55:30.442 --> 0:55:40.292 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, je pense que les policiers veut enlever pour que pour surtout le comme surtout avortement toujours présent fait que ouais, ça c'est un autre débat complet différent. Now, I think the cops want to remove so that for especially the as especially abortion still present makes that yeah, that's another whole different debate. 0:55:40.302 --> 0:55:40.842 Gigi Kaur Mais ouais. But Yes 0:55:40.132 --> 0:55:46.662 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis on n'est-ce pas qu’il n’y aura pas trop d'influence américaine sur ce qui se passe au Canada? Yeah, and don't you think there won't be too much American influence on what happens in Canada? 0:55:46.672 --> 0:55:56.612 Hélène Goulet Parce que jusqu'à maintenant, je dirais qu au Canada, on est beaucoup plus ouvert par rapport à l'avortement, puis à la pilule, la pilule, avoir avorté. Because until now, I'd say that in Canada, we're much more open about abortion, and then the pill, the pill, having an abortion. 0:55:56.622 --> 0:55:57.852 Hélène Goulet Cie, avertir. Cie, warn. 0:56:1.2 --> 0:56:7.132 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu au Canada, les politiciens ont très peur d'ouvrir ce sujet-là parce qu'ils savent qu’ils n’ont pas d'appui. I think that in Canada, politicians are very afraid to open up this subject because they know they don't have the support. 0:56:7.182 --> 0:56:11.402 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, les Canadiens en général sont plus à gauche sur ce sais. You know, Canadians in general are more to the left on this one. 0:56:11.412 --> 0:56:22.252 Hélène Goulet C'est sûr qu'il y a des, y a des groupes, y a des groupes qui traditionnels, mais ils auraient beaucoup de mal à se faire élire comme gouvernement au Canada. Of course, there are some traditional groups, but they would have a hard time getting elected as a government in Canada. 0:56:22.382 --> 0:56:23.662 Hélène Goulet Encore jusqu'à maintenant. Until now. 0:56:25.312 --> 0:56:32.972 Hélène Goulet Mais aux États-Unis, c'est assez peur, c'est qu'on voit ce qui se passe aussi unis en général sur bien des sujets. But in the U.S., it's pretty scary, because we see what's going on united in general on a lot of issues. 0:56:32.752 --> 0:56:36.832 Gigi Kaur Attends, attends, être un Américain, je peux vous confirmer que c'est le? Wait, wait, being an American, I can confirm that this is the? 0:56:40.622 --> 0:57:0.172 Gigi Kaur Alors la dernière question, je pense que ouais, c'est la dernière question, alors notre génération intéressée par un mouvement de l'amour libre qu'elle était la perception des relations avant le mariage sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970, étiez vu négativement. So, the last question, I think yeah, this is the last question, so our generation interested in a free love movement what the perception of premarital relationships on the University of Ottawa campus in was the 1970s, were seen negatively. 0:57:0.182 --> 0:57:7.152 Gigi Kaur Accepter ou même encourager dans cette période, dans ce mouvement, dans cette mentalité, idéologie? To accept or even encourage in this period, in this movement, in this mentality, ideology? 0:57:8.432 --> 0:57:13.392 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’est pas vraiment dans le cercle dans lequel j'opérais c'était accepté. You know, it's not really in the circle I was operating in that was accepted. 0:57:14.802 --> 0:57:15.902 Hélène Goulet Encourager? Encourage? 0:57:16.312 --> 0:57:17.352 Hélène Goulet Pas nécessairement. Not necessarily. 0:57:18.252 --> 0:57:30.402 Hélène Goulet Euh, mais c'était accepté en général, comme il n’y avait pas de choc, quelqu'un disait qu'il y avait qui était qui avait des relations avec quelqu'un ou qui habitait avec quelqu'un qui n’était pas marié. Uh, but it was accepted in general, as there was no shock, someone would say that there was who was who had relations with someone or who lived with someone who wasn't married. 0:57:30.412 --> 0:57:35.32 Hélène Goulet Il n’y avait pas de choc, il n’y avait pas, tu sais, c'était. There was no shock, there was no, you know, it was. 0:57:35.72 --> 0:57:36.712 Hélène Goulet C'était vu comme assez ordinaire. It was seen as quite ordinary. 0:57:37.842 --> 0:57:38.92 Gigi Kaur OK. Ok 0:57:38.732 --> 0:57:54.782 Hélène Goulet Ouais je ne sais pas ou.de vue comme si les relations multiples était aussi accepté mais quand t'avais un copain puis que tu que tu que t'avais des relations avec ton copain, ça c'était accepté. Yeah, I don't know, like multiple relationships were also accepted, but when you had a boyfriend and then you had relationships with your boyfriend, that was accepted. 0:57:55.652 --> 0:58:8.912 Hélène Goulet Si y avait eu des orgies, je ne sais pas si moi ce n’est pas mon monde, mais y en avait sûrement parce que moi je suis très naïve mais il y en avait sûrement, mais ce n’est pas mon monde, c'est que je ne peux pas vraiment parler. If there had been orgies, I don't know if it's not my world, but there probably were, because I'm very naive, but there probably were, but it's not my world, so I can't really talk. 0:58:12.52 --> 0:58:12.262 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 0:58:9.812 --> 0:58:14.372 Gigi Kaur Et vous avez participé une blague, t'as pas besoin de répondre, t'as pas besoin de répondre. And you participated in a joke, you don't have to answer, you don't have to respond. 0:58:14.912 --> 0:58:17.322 Hélène Goulet Non, ce n’est pas mon bag. No, it's not my bag. 0:58:19.522 --> 0:58:24.222 Gigi Kaur Mais je pense que dans le 1970 et même 4 Vingts, c'était la période, vraiment. But I think in the 1970s and even the 4 Twenties, that was the period, really. 0:58:26.392 --> 0:58:30.262 Gigi Kaur Très, ouvert avec les origines, avec multi partenaires, et cetera. Very, open with origins, with multi partners, et cetera. 0:58:30.272 --> 0:58:33.632 Gigi Kaur Fait, ouais, je suis, je ne serai pas surprise non plus. Fact, yeah, I am, I won't be surprised either. 0:58:33.702 --> 0:58:35.422 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, c'est en train de diminuer à dire. Now it's dwindling to say. 0:58:36.742 --> 0:58:54.782 Hélène Goulet Je pense que quand j'ai commencé à enseigner à Cornwall en 1975, j'ai appris un moment donné pendant que j'étais là pendant 2 ans, qu’il y avait des orgies, des adultes, pas des pas des jeunes et des adultes professionnels. I think when I started teaching in Cornwall in 1975, I learned at one point while I was there for 2 years, that there were orgies, adults, not youths and professional adults. 0:58:54.792 --> 0:58:58.592 Hélène Goulet Il y avait des y avait des, des échanges de coupes. There were exchanges of cups. 0:58:59.912 --> 0:59:2.112 Hélène Goulet C'est l'équivalent à peu près de notre d'énergie. It's roughly equivalent to our energy consumption. 0:59:2.122 --> 0:59:7.2 Hélène Goulet Au fond des échanges de couples qui se passaient dans des parties. Basically, it's about couples exchanging ideas at parties. 0:59:7.12 --> 0:59:15.102 Hélène Goulet Puis tu sais, ça m'avait, à l'époque, je suis très surprise que j'étais très naïve, mais j'étais très naïve d'un petit village. At the time, I'm very surprised that I was so naive, but I was very naive from a small village. 0:59:16.642 --> 0:59:23.832 Hélène Goulet Et puis après ça, j'ai appris que dans c'était très populaire dans les petites villes, les gros villages et les petites villes. And then after that, I learned that in it was very popular in small towns, big villages, and small cities. 0:59:23.842 --> 0:59:27.822 Hélène Goulet Il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient beaucoup, beaucoup de ça qui se passait. There was a lot of that going on, a lot of that going on. 0:59:28.252 --> 0:59:30.722 Hélène Goulet Ça fait probablement que l'université aussi me. That probably makes the university me too. 0:59:31.652 --> 0:59:33.852 Gigi Kaur Alors, les couples qui s'échangent, c'est ça? So, swapping couples, right? 0:59:34.492 --> 0:59:42.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, des échanges de coups Ninja, qui organise un groupe actif, puis tout le monde qui était, se présentait au party. Yes, exchanges of Ninja blows, which organizes an active group, then everyone who was, showed up at the party. 0:59:42.242 --> 0:59:45.42 Hélène Goulet Puis je pense que ça se passait même au parti. Then I think it even happened at the party. 0:59:45.52 --> 0:59:47.632 Hélène Goulet J'ai aucune idée parce que je ne l’ai pas fait, mais. I have no idea because I haven't done it, but. 0:59:49.372 --> 0:59:54.992 Hélène Goulet C'était en tout cas pour moi, ça a toujours été représenté. At least for me, it was always represented. 1:0:0.672 --> 1:0:2.362 Hélène Goulet Un manque de spiritualité? A lack of spirituality? 1:0:4.932 --> 1:0:5.692 Gigi Kaur Qu'est-ce que vous voulez dire? What's that supposed to mean? 1:0:4.942 --> 1:0:11.572 Hélène Goulet Pour moi, pour moi, Ben c'est, c'est très personnel, c'est une opinion, je suis d'accord, tu sais, ce n’est peut-être pas vrai. For me, for me, Ben it's, it's very personal, it's an opinion, I agree, you know, it may not be true. 1:0:11.582 --> 1:0:23.992 Hélène Goulet Mais pour moi, c'est vrai que quand on a une vie spirituelle, pas religieuse, là à la messe, ce n’est pas ça que je veux dire, une vie spirituelle, qu'on est dans un cheminement de croissance personnelle et spirituelle. But for me, it's true that when you have a spiritual life, not a religious one, that's not what I mean, a spiritual life, that you're on a journey of personal and spiritual growth. 1:0:24.52 --> 1:0:29.482 Hélène Goulet Allô que cette sorte de chose là vous intéresse vraiment pas comme on est. Hello that sort of thing really doesn't interest you the way we are. 1:0:29.492 --> 1:0:51.332 Hélène Goulet On veut avoir une relation avec quelqu'un, tu sais une relation qui, OK, qui est en accord avec les principes d'amour de tu sais, de d'engagement de, tu sais même maintenant je ne pourrais pas avoir 2 partenaires en même temps, j'en suis incapable. We want to have a relationship with someone, you know a relationship that, OK, that's in line with the principles of love of you know, of commitment of, you know even now I couldn't have 2 partners at the same time, I'm incapable of it. 1:0:51.342 --> 1:0:58.312 Hélène Goulet Puis pourtant, j'ai un enfant, un de mes enfants, qui est bisexuel et polyamour? And yet, I have a child, one of my children, who is bisexual and polyamorous? 1:0:59.772 --> 1:1:1.142 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais qui est très lui? So, you know who's really him? 1:1:3.182 --> 1:1:4.432 Hélène Goulet C'est très ouvert ça. That's very open. 1:1:4.442 --> 1:1:6.372 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il participé à toutes sortes d'affaires. Then he was involved in all kinds of business. 1:1:6.382 --> 1:1:15.832 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je ne mets pas tout savoir parce que je n’ai pas besoin de le savoir, ce n’est pas ma vie à moi, mais je sais que ça existe encore. You know, I don't want to know everything because I don't need to know, it's not my life, but I know it still exists. 1:1:15.842 --> 1:1:20.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, y a un monde dans lequel ça, c'est choses, là arrivent, ça passe. You know, there's a world in which these, these things, these things come, they go. 1:1:22.402 --> 1:1:24.942 Hélène Goulet Ça fait bon, je m'en vais avec ça je pense. That's good, I think I'll leave with that. 1:1:26.692 --> 1:1:27.462 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, hein? No worries, eh? 1:1:24.952 --> 1:1:30.242 Hélène Goulet Je suis sortie du sujet, ouais c'est ça, c'est ça, ça fait que pour moi ça, ça a toujours été. I've gone off topic, yeah that's it, that's it, that's what it's always been for me. 1:1:32.122 --> 1:1:42.772 Hélène Goulet C'est des gens qui a comme un vide à l'intérieur, puis remplisse le vide avec des choses comme ça parce qu'il pense que ça va remplir le vide, mais ça ne remplit pas le vide, puis éventuellement s'en rencontre. It's people who have a kind of emptiness inside them, then fill the emptiness with things like that because they think it'll fill the emptiness, but it doesn't, and then eventually they run into it. 1:1:42.782 --> 1:1:46.992 Hélène Goulet C'est comme remplir le vide avec l'alcool, remplir le vide, une sorte d'addiction. It's like filling the void with alcohol, filling the void, a kind of addiction. 1:1:47.2 --> 1:1:59.422 Hélène Goulet Au fond, c'est une sorte de dépendance à quelque chose qui n’est pas, qui n’est pas bon à long terme, c'est qui n’est pas simple pour la personne humaine à long terme, mais ça c'est une opinion personnelle. Basically, it's a kind of dependence on something that's not, that's not good in the long term, that's not simple for the human being in the long term, but that's a personal opinion. 1:2:3.42 --> 1:2:3.252 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 1:2:0.152 --> 1:2:3.302 Gigi Kaur Ouais, n’y a pas de souci, vous avez droit à votre opinion personnelle, hein? Yeah, don't worry, you're entitled to your own opinion, aren't you? 1:2:10.312 --> 1:2:12.402 Hélène Goulet Ohh, alors elle, c'est ça? Ohh, so that's her, is it? 1:2:3.682 --> 1:2:18.702 Gigi Kaur C'est ça ne veut pas dire que Trudeau éliminé, le Censorship que ne t’as pas le droit de dire que ce que vous voulez, je moi je suis très à cœur avec vous parce que moi je n’aurais pas capable d’avoir 562 personnes, c'est trop, c'est trop. It doesn't mean that Trudeau eliminated the Censorship, that you don't have the right to say what you want, I'm very sympathetic to you because I wouldn't have been able to get 562 people, it's too much, it's too much. 1:2:19.132 --> 1:2:22.192 Gigi Kaur Même avec moi, des fois je suis un peu trop, hein, je suis comme. Even with me, sometimes I'm a bit too much, eh, I'm like. 1:2:21.892 --> 1:2:28.112 Hélène Goulet Ouais tout à fait la vie, elle est la vie est assez ouais, submergeant par moment. Yeah, quite life, it's life is quite yeah, overwhelming at times. 1:2:28.902 --> 1:2:34.782 Gigi Kaur Fait que la spiritualité, je comprends très bien, je suis très d'accord avec vous sur ça mais. The fact that there spirituality, I understand very well, I agree with you on that but. 1:2:36.702 --> 1:2:36.862 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 1:2:34.392 --> 1:2:40.12 Hélène Goulet C'est, j'ai dit à une amie une fois parce qu’après ma séparation, j'ai eu plusieurs partenaires. That's what I told a friend once, because after my separation, I had several partners. 1:2:40.52 --> 1:2:51.452 Hélène Goulet Au fil du temps, c'est à 13 ans, c'est certains qui ont duré plus longtemps que d'autres et je disais à mon ami, j'ai dit, je suis Cyril monogame est. Over time, that's at 13, it's some that lasted longer than others and I said to my friend, I said, I'm Cyril monogamous is. 1:2:52.992 --> 1:2:54.382 Hélène Goulet Sérieux monogames. Serious monogamists. 1:2:54.442 --> 1:2:59.112 Hélène Goulet Rien parce que j'ai été marié pendant très longtemps, 30 ans. Nothing because I've been married for a very long time, 30 years. 1:2:59.542 --> 1:3:10.332 Hélène Goulet Et puis je fais des choses à comprendre puis à vivre après, mais malgré ça, c'était quand même très laisse. And then I do things I have to understand and then live through afterwards, but despite that, it was still very much on the leash. 1:3:10.342 --> 1:3:10.952 Hélène Goulet Pensable? Thinkable? 1:3:10.962 --> 1:3:16.192 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que la personne que j'ai vécu, puis c'était toujours des personnes avec qui j'étais dans une sorte de relation. That's what the person I experienced, and then it was always people with whom I had some kind of relationship. 1:3:16.202 --> 1:3:24.42 Hélène Goulet Ce n’était pas One Night stand de rencontrer dans un bar puis où je n’allais pas de toute façon, mais tu sais, c'était des gens que j'avais rencontrés. It wasn't One Night stand to meet in a bar then where I wasn't going anyway, but you know, it was people I'd met. 1:3:24.52 --> 1:3:37.772 Hélène Goulet Puis avec qui j'avais une relation, ne sais pas nécessairement là le grand amour de ma vie, mais quand même une relation exclusivement monogame de part et d'autre. Then with whom I had a relationship-not necessarily the great love of my life, but an exclusively monogamous relationship on both sides. 1:3:45.922 --> 1:3:49.612 Gigi Kaur Moi, je pense qu'il faut que j'aille applique aussi, il faut l'appeler. I think I'd better go and apply it too, give it a call. 1:3:50.332 --> 1:3:52.142 Hélène Goulet Ouais, monogame en série. Yeah, serial monogamist. 1:3:52.152 --> 1:3:57.512 Hélène Goulet C'est Ben, c'est ça comme je pense qu'en général, la plupart des gens sont ça. That's Ben, that's the way I think most people are. 1:3:57.552 --> 1:4:8.32 Hélène Goulet Des Monogrammes en Syrie, c'est comme on, on reste plus dans des relations qui nous, ils ne sont pas bonnes pour notre croissance, qui ne sont pas bonnes pour notre évolution. Monograms in Syria, it's like we, we stay more in relationships that we, they are not good for our growth, that are not good for our evolution. 1:4:8.42 --> 1:4:8.472 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, puis. You know, then. 1:4:10.442 --> 1:4:11.362 Hélène Goulet Ça c'est bon ça. That's good. 1:4:11.372 --> 1:4:17.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense que c'est une bonne chose, ce n’est pas, tu sais de pas endurer des choses qu’on ne devrait pas durer. I think it's a good thing, it's not, you know not putting up with things you shouldn't. 1:4:17.72 --> 1:4:17.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une bonne chose. This is a good thing. 1:4:20.32 --> 1:4:25.42 Gigi Kaur Mais merci de tout me d'expliquer, répondre à mes questions. But thank you for explaining everything to me and answering my questions. 1:4:25.52 --> 1:4:30.2 Gigi Kaur J'ai eu tellement d'informations, j'ai comme je vous ai dit au milieu de de l'entrevue. I've got so much information, as I told you in the middle of the interview. 1:4:30.12 --> 1:4:37.102 Gigi Kaur Je vous adore parce que je trouve qu'on les similaires moi même si je ne suis pas beaucoup parlé de moi, ce n’est pas une entrevue de moi, c'est plus de vous. I adore you because I think they're similar to me, even though I don't talk much about myself. It's not an interview with me, it's more about you. 1:4:37.312 --> 1:4:45.852 Gigi Kaur Je vois clairement qu'on est parce que des fois quand je parle avec d'autres personnes, je dis toujours à ma old Soul and Young Bury. I can clearly see that we are because sometimes when I talk to other people, I always say to my old Soul and Young Bury. 1:4:46.912 --> 1:4:48.192 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça exactement. Yeah, that's it exactly. 1:4:49.122 --> 1:5:0.322 Gigi Kaur Fait que des fois, quand je pense certaines choses, puis je l'explique, tu sais comment je suis vraiment une grande mère, c'est, ce n’est pas comme je ne peux pas connecter métiers quand je vous vois, je suis comme Okay, je comprends pourquoi je pense de cette manière. Does that sometimes, when I think certain things, then I explain it, you know how I'm really a big mom, it's, it's not like I can't connect trades when I see you, I'm like okay, I understand why I think that way. 1:5:0.952 --> 1:5:10.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est bon parce que c'est peut-être que tu es, c'est, c'est peut-être t'es peut-être pas dans ta première vie, ton âme, mais peut-être pas dans sa première vie. Yeah, it's okay because maybe you are, it's, it's maybe you're not in your first life, your soul, but maybe not in its first life. 1:5:10.462 --> 1:5:13.872 Hélène Goulet Il y a peut-être une autre vie avant, c'est ça? Maybe there's another life before, right? 1:5:13.882 --> 1:5:19.452 Hélène Goulet Je crois ça, moi, personnellement, je crois, je crois, que l'homme peut choisir de revenir. I personally believe that man can choose to come back. 1:5:19.622 --> 1:5:22.692 Hélène Goulet C'est que Ouais, Ben je crois ça. Yeah, well, I think so. 1:5:22.702 --> 1:5:30.352 Hélène Goulet Je sais que ce n’est pas, ce n’est pas une croyance chrétienne populaire, mais de toute façon mes croyances sont tellement évoluées. I know it's not, it's not a popular Christian belief, but anyway my beliefs are so evolved. 1:5:32.102 --> 1:5:35.652 Gigi Kaur Mais c'est ça, c'est la vie, c'est l'évolution, s’est-il faut, il faut évoluer. But that's it, that's life, that's evolution, it's necessary, it's necessary to evolve. 1:5:35.852 --> 1:5:37.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:5:36.2 --> 1:5:38.42 Gigi Kaur Si tu n’évolue pas, ouais. If you don't evolve, yeah. 1:5:39.282 --> 1:5:43.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais exactement tu vois du poids, tu m'as, c'est ça. Yeah, exactly you see weight, you got me, that's it. 1:5:43.342 --> 1:5:49.862 Hélène Goulet C'est si on y va, on n’avance pas, on recule parce qu’on ne peut pas rester statique, c'est, c'est un principe de vie, d'être dynamique alors. It's if you go, you don't go forward, you go back because you can't stay static, it's, it's a principle of life, to be dynamic then. 1:5:50.822 --> 1:5:55.632 Gigi Kaur Ouais alors est-ce que t'es une dernière question? Yeah, so do you have any last questions? 1:5:55.642 --> 1:5:57.162 Gigi Kaur Mais est-ce que vous voulez dire quelque chose d'autre? But is there anything else you'd like to say? 1:5:57.172 --> 1:5:59.192 Gigi Kaur Propos de Yoann les idéologies? Yoann's comments on ideologies? 1:5:59.202 --> 1:6:1.102 Gigi Kaur Vous avez trouvé que vous avez beaucoup d'idées déjà? Have you come up with a lot of ideas yet? 1:6:1.762 --> 1:6:7.952 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai beaucoup dit déjà, puis je voulais expliquer pourquoi je ne voulais pas mettre de photos. I've said a lot already, and then I wanted to explain why I didn't want to put any photos. 1:6:8.42 --> 1:6:21.352 Hélène Goulet Parce qu'avec l'intelligence artificielle maintenant, je trouve que c'est tellement dangereux qu'on utilise notre identité à des mauvaises fins, puis dans mon monde dans lequel j'ai opéré, je suis assez connue. Because with artificial intelligence now, I think it's so dangerous for our identity to be used for the wrong purposes, and then in my world where I've operated, I'm pretty well known. 1:6:21.882 --> 1:6:30.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que c'est un peu nerveuse par rapport à ça, c'est pour ça que je ne voulais pas que ça soit mis sur le site. And that makes me a bit nervous about it, which is why I didn't want to put it on the site. 1:6:31.702 --> 1:6:34.312 Gigi Kaur Site web de Iowa, Ouais. Website of Iowa, Yeah. 1:6:30.62 --> 1:6:43.122 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas, le site vie la vie sur le campus, soit que je n'ai pas d'objection à utiliser mes initiales, puis utiliser le l'enregistrement dans les salles de classe parce que personne ne peut l'associer à qui la personne? I don't know, site life campus life, either I don't mind using my initials, then use the recording in the classrooms because no one can associate it with who the person? 1:6:43.632 --> 1:6:46.252 Hélène Goulet Parce qu’autrement, je trouve qu'il y a beaucoup de risques. Because otherwise, I think there are a lot of risks. 1:6:46.262 --> 1:6:54.62 Hélène Goulet Maintenant, je ne suis pas très active sur les réseaux sociaux non plus parce que je pense ça non plus, je n’ai pas le temps. Now, I'm not very active on social networks either because I don't have the time. 1:6:55.372 --> 1:6:58.162 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes trop engagés dans la Communauté, ce qu'il faut? You're too involved in the Community, what's needed? 1:6:58.62 --> 1:7:1.122 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:7:7.182 --> 1:7:7.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:6:59.842 --> 1:7:8.122 Gigi Kaur Oh mais bon je vous laisserai parce que déjà vous étiez là avec moi pendant 1h je vois clairement sur le. Oh well, I'll leave you to it because you were already there with me for 1 hour I can see clearly on the. 1:7:8.432 --> 1:7:19.722 Gigi Kaur Le petit timer fait que merci énormément si jamais t'as d'autres questions ou si vous voulez faire notre projet avec moi, n'hésitez pas à me contacter en espérant que je peux vous contacter aussi si jamais. The small timer makes that thank you very much if you ever have any other questions or if you want to do our project with me, do not hesitate to contact me hoping that I can contact you too if ever. 1:7:19.602 --> 1:7:23.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, certainement, ça me ferait plaisir de te mieux te connaître. Yes, certainly, I'd love to get to know you better. 1:7:26.282 --> 1:7:26.602 Hélène Goulet Okay? Ok 1:7:30.232 --> 1:7:30.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:7:24.232 --> 1:7:33.372 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, merci beaucoup, puis fait qu’alors je vais couper le brocoli Bing ici fait que c'est ça, c'est top recording. No worries, thank you very much, then fact that then I'll cut the broccoli Bing here makes that's it, it's top recording. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hours, 7 minutes, 33 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goulet, Hélène (interview) Description An account of the resource The 1970s experience : Protest, Activism, Vietnam War, Feminism, 70s Media, UOttawa Campus, Francophone. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 30, 2023 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thomas Boogaart Relation A related resource Goulet, Helene Language A language of the resource French Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Abortion Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Dating Drugs Faculty of Arts Faculty of Law Feminism Gender Generational Differences Marriage Popular Music Queer Religion Sexuality Sports Student Life The Pill University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boogaart, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vares, Thomas Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vares, Thomas Interview Title: Interview with Thomas Vares Interviewed by: Thomas Boogaart II Date of Interview: November 10, 2023 Venue: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada using Teams Transcription Method: Microsoft Teams Original Language: English Translation: DeepL and Thomas Boogaart edits Tags (English): Ottawa, Toronto, Estonian Immigrant Culture, University of Ottawa, Youth Rebellion, Counterculture Movement, Hair Styles, Sexism, Shoplifting, Francophone Culture, Department of History, Party Culture. Citation: • Bibliography: Vares, Thomas. Interview with Thomas Boogaart. November 10, 2023. 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds. https://omeka.uottawa.ca/lifeoncampus/admin/items/show/1 • Footnote: Thomas Vares, interview with Thomas Boogaart, November 10, 2023, 23:06-23:24. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M39RtSf81k Thomas Boogaart (TB): It is November 10, 2023. We're in Desmarais 9114 and I have with me an illustrious alumni from the class of 1973, AKA a dinosaur generation. Thomas Vare (TV): The dinosaur generation? TB: Yes, we're looking forward to hearing some histories, Thomas Vares; did I pronounce it correctly? TV: Yeah. TB: OK, so I'm a little bit of a historian of the 20th century, and for an Estonian of that generation, usually when your family came over here (to Canada) it was related in some way to World War Two. So, I was curious how your family landed here. TV: Very well. So, I was born in Toronto. We lived in the Beach, which is the East End, a very Anglo-Saxon neighborhood, and still perhaps one of the most Anglo-Saxon neighborhoods in multicultural Toronto today. So, my parents came from Estonia, one of the Baltic countries, very, very small, about the size of Montreal, a country with a population of about 1.2 million, one-third being Russian today. And, they were overtaken by the Soviets during the Second World War, and people had basically 48 hours to make a decision. Do they stay and become part of the Soviet occupation, or do they flee? So, my parents fled from different families, and they fled across Europe and my mother, and her mother, fled to Germany. And they were in one of these work camps in Germany. They were actually in Dresden for the fire bombings by the Allies. And you know, they described to me these stories of how all the buildings were burning, and the only way that they could escape the bombed area was to wrap wet bed sheets around their bodies and run between the burning buildings. TB: Did they use white phosphorus? TV: I don't know what they used at that point in the bombing, and also my mother and her mother became separated in Dresden at one point. And so people would go to a wall and they dropped their name. And then say, you know, meet me at such and such a place and people could get unified again. So, my mother and my grandmother reunited. And then they came to Canada together. TB: They were displaced persons in Germany? TV: Exactly. And, so, they immigrated under that program, and they became maids for the Nielsen family in Toronto. The Chocolate Nielsen family. So, they were made for that particular family. That was the first employment they had. Now my father's story is a bit different. My father was from one of the major cities in Estonia and there was a political problem in that family. The Vares family, where one of the brothers was a Soviet sympathizer, and became the 1st President of the Estonian, of the Soviet version of Estonia, Estonian, USSR. So, my father; he fled with his mother and father and they ended up in New York. And somehow, I don't know the story, but my father managed to come to Canada and established himself in Toronto, where he worked on the railway. And so that's where he met my mother in Toronto. TB: So, they were both Estonian, but they didn't meet in the neighborhood. They met at work. TV: I don't know, they were dating somehow. I don't know how it was, but the immigrant community was very interesting because let's say all of these Estonians that immigrated in that wave after the Second World War in Toronto, all became a network of friends. And you know, my godparents were friends or friends, and it was a very, very tight network. TB: It's very typical with immigrants. TV: The street that I grew up on in Toronto, it had 12 Estonian families, but you believe that's the, let's say there were maybe 70 homes on Glen Davis. The street in the east and there were like 11 or 12 Estonian families on that street. TB: I think Estonian was Catholic. TV: No, they were Lutheran. So, you have regular Lutheran, and then you have an evangelical branch. TB: Yes, I'm familiar with that. So, were those church institutions important in Toronto in terms of integrating your social life? TV: Yes, very much so. The Priest- the minister- would visit our home and talk to my parents, etcetera. And, every year, an amount of money was identified by the minister as to how much the family had to contribute to the church. TB: The Tithe. TV: Exactly. So, it's almost like the old-fashioned Catholic way of doing things. TB: So, growing up in that system, imagine a lot of your social activities would have been in the church. TV: Exactly. So, I went to the Estonian Lutheran Church in Toronto. I went to Estonian summer camp where we spoke Estonian and it maintained the language. I went to Estonian school once a week in the evenings learning how to read and write, learn the history, and that sort of thing. So one of the things that sort of bothered me was that being brought up in that type of home, European Home Canada was put on a second level and the Estonian way of doing things is always the best, the superior way. These Canadians don't know anything. They don't know how to make soup. They, you know, eat soup out of again. But we European Estonians we cooked from scratch, you know? TB: It makes sense, right? Because they were forced to flee their home. So there was a kind of a loneliness for a home. TV: They couldn't go back, but as you know, very interesting. Is that what they don't realize? They couldn't go back really at that point because of the Soviet situation. You know what is interesting is the home country evolves. TB: Um-hmm. TV: And advances yes, and the language advances the vocabulary advances, but the all the exported colony. Yes, is frozen in time. TB: So, the linguists come to the United States to study the old language because it's frozen. TV: So exactly this is what happened, let's say with French. So, when New France was established in North America, the people here, the culture, the accent, it froze. Meanwhile, France, the metropolis it was evolving, right? So the Quebec accent that you have today is very much based on umm, you know exactly that's that same. TB: So you really grew up in an English Estonian environment? TV: Yes. TB: What was your perception growing up about Francophone culture? TV: Yeah, I believe in another life I was francophone because let me tell you, at the age of five or six, when I was sitting down at breakfast reading and looking at the Shreddies box or cornflakes, there's French and there's English. I was always fascinated. What is the French we used to get orange pekoe tea in a box, right? And they had a bird card. So, you could make your collection of bird cards. They were bilingual and the instructions on the box were bilingual, so I was always fascinated by this other language. But the overall attitude of immigrants vis-a-vis French was, well, why did they think they're special? You know, there was a little bit of a, a grudge there about well, well, why, you know, why is that language being given all of this attention to when we TB: And that's in the 50s and 60s? TV: Yes. TB: Before the sovereignty movement? TV: Yeah. even before that: And that value never changed with my parents. But they much wanted me to learn French, and we learned it in high school in Toronto, it was only in high school that you really started to seriously studying French. TB: So did you have an idea about Montreal as a cultural scene? TV: Well, Montreal was, you know, up until 1970, Montreal was the biggest city in Canada and the capital of not only French Canadian culture, but English, Canadian culture, because CBC radio and television English section was headquartered in Montreal. So all of the stars and the writers they were all established in Montreal. It wasn't until the political situation and people moved down the 4:01 that Toronto overcame Montreal and then CBC and the English Center of Culture shifted from Montreal to Toronto. TB: But you were growing up in this metropolitan area of Toronto, what was your sense of Montreal as a metropole? TV: Oh, fantastic because in my mind the first contact I had with Montreal was 1967. Expo 67 and all of the students from Toronto came to Montreal for four days or five days and we stayed at the College in the West End and the Agricultural College, TB: John Abott College? TV: Yes, and they had like a dorm. Som we stayed there and then we went to Expo and that's where we met French Canadians for the first time. It was totally amazing and one of the memories I have is they had the Expo train that went around the Expo site and at one point there was this dramatic view of the entire Expo site and there were some students, a class of students from Montreal, French-speaking, that were on that particular train with our class. And the minute they saw this huge view of the Expo, spontaneously, they started singing. Oh, Canada in French. It was a totally amazing moment, but getting back to what you're saying, my affinity and my love for Montreal from that point on was they were European. TB: Like you? TV: Yes, I was of European background. Their values of life were similar to the European values, even has a port. TB: Reading the cereal box you had this sense of affinity for that something. TV: And then when I met French Canadians for the first time when we came here to Montreal and 67, it clicked and I said, you know what, they are European and (Torontonians) they are not. And I don't wanna be racist or anything, but I always felt that English-speaking values and culture it’s sterile. There was something missing there. And the one that's one thing I agreed with my parents that the European background, we know how to live life and a bit more than just working 9 to 5 going home and that sort of thing. TB: That's the affinity you felt. TV: That's the affinity that clicked and then of course coming with my school, my public school, to Ottawa for a tour. Also, that was one of the visits that they organized. It was that whole idea. My God, I just where the government is and I became a political junkie. TB: Did you have a sense that Ottawa was not a cultural center but more of a political center? TV: It was not only a Cultural Center, but when we came here with our class from public school. It was the first time I saw a functioning bilingual environment where you could go into a store and you would hear French-speaking in English-speaking people they had a full-time French radio station, and a television station because, in Toronto, it wasn't until about 1970 that they opened up Radio Canada television station service. : What they had was once in a while they would carry French programs on one of the Hamilton stations, but there was no French-speaking television at that point until about 1970. TB: So you already told me you'll have to do it again. The story of how you came to Ottawa, but I can already see you had a kind of affinity. TV: Right. So yeah, so, I had this. I had this urge to become French-Canadian; Pierre Elliot Trudeau had a lot to do with it. He was my absolute idol and when I came here with my public school tour, it was the, you know, the end of public school. As such, we bumped into him getting, you know, he was getting into his car, and we got to talk to him. So you know it was, yes. So that was that was the first real step towards Ottawa. So what happened was I enrolled in the French program at Glendon College, York University in the 70s, and late 60s. It was a totally francophone college. Lawrence and Bayview. Beautiful campus. Nice mansion. That and classes were very small and it was a totally French program. Today I think it's sort of transformed itself into a half-French program, a half York University English program. So I took two years there and learned everything from French Canadian literature to courses in French Canadian history, took courses in French, Canadian politics, nationalism, all of that. And after two years, I I sat down with my counselor and I said this would have been 1970. I said well, listen, how can I really, really improve my French? Should I go to Quebec City for a summer job, or you know’ what are my options? And they said, well, you know what you could do, you could go to University of Ottawa. They have a fabulous program there where as an Anglophone you can take your history courses in French, but you can write your essays and your exams in English, so you get the best of both worlds and you get really immersed in French. I said, well, that sounds fantastic. So I spoke to my parents. So, they were all for that. And I arrived here at Ottawa U in my third year and this would have been 70, 71, 72 and loved it and never went back to Toronto and graduated. TB: So you did three years? TV: I did two years. TB: Two years and then two years. TV; Yeah, and it was fabulous. TB: Got a job on thenHill? TV: It's a student job. TB: As a page? TV: During the summer I worked in the post office. TB: OK, yes, it's important. TV: Sorting mail for the MP TB: there was a lot more mail back then. TV: Yes, it was fabulous. And then I became involved with the Liberal Party. It became a young liberal and that's a whole different story. TB: yeah, I'd be curious to hear that too, but we should probably leave that. So, what were your first impressions? You talk very positively about your university experience. But I mean you the first time you kind of came off the train where were you, and where were you living? Did you get an apartment? TV: We were living in residences. Well, you know what I have to tell you, the truth about some of it is rather wild. So, my father drove me to the airport in Toronto to come to Ottawa, and as we were driving to the airport, he gave me the father sons and he said, you know, we're so proud of you. You know, we have absolute confidence in you. We know that you're not gonna be a political radical. Umm, although I was, you know, a child flower child in the 60s and you know, a Beatles fan and you know, so I was a little bit of a cultural revolutionary. He said we have absolute confidence in you and we know you won't do drugs and alcohol and that sort of thing. And I didn't even smoke. So, you know, we know that you're gonna be a good boy. Oh, well, let me tell you about the first week in residence. I'm not even going to go into the details, but all of that just went out the window. TB: Uh-huh. TV: Alright, so my first impression of the society is that the society or the culture of the university residence culture was it was really dominated in immersed in the drug culture of the 60s. TB: OK, you know, so even in this, we're talking about alcohol, hashish, marijuana. TV: (nodding); LSD was very, very big. Let's put it this way. First week in residence and I was on the Marshawn residence right by the driveway there, the Nicholas Street. I had marijuana for the first time, and I think it took me 3 mornings to wake up and not be floating above my mattress. I think or whatever it was. So, I indulged in that, but I knew what my limit was after that. And, so, as I saw my friends advancing from marijuana to hashish to LSD and that sort of thing, I would be in the room and I would decline. And quite sometimes it was quite different. Difficult to be the only person in the room that was there. Umm well, everyone else was hallucinating or doing what they were doing, but I don't blame them or anything. But yeah, that was my first impression was now my second impression was, well, coming from Toronto. This was the first time that I met people from small towns.Yes, from Kingston, Napanee, Apine, or whatever it is, they had an entirely different view of life. TB: Yeah. TV: And absolutely different values and I found myself to be the goody goody of the bunch coming from Toronto. TB: From a strict European family, rebelling against their conservative environment? TV: I don't know. I think it was just values that and again, you know I'm not being critical of these people because they were wonderful people. But for instance, you know, I'll give you one example. So, this you know, Thomas, we've got to shake you up here, like, get you into the real world. So, have you ever shoplifted? I said, what are you talking about? He said, well, you know, shoplifted go into a store and steal something. I said absolutely not. I've never done that, I said. How can you possibly do that without being arrested? So, they said to me they were like two guys from Kingston. OK, where you go to Spark St, there's a there's a Kreski's. Umm, we're gonna show you how to shoplift/ TB: They broke you in? TV: OK, so we went. So, we go into the store and just one guy from Kingston, the leader of sort of our pack, said. OK, so this is what you do you see that lighter over there? This is winter. He said you have one glove here and one glove there. So what you do is you pick up the ledger, you look at it and you put it on top of that glove and then when no one's looking, you take the other glove and you put it on top of that and you walk out of the store. Or so I looked at the lighter. I've never and it's just. I'm sorry I can't do it. I can't do it. TB: you were a good boy. TV: No, no, I you know it wasn't a question of being a good boy. I couldn't do the dare. It was a dare, I said, you know, like, I'm sorry. I mean you can call me a suck if you want to. I cannot do it. Then the second guy. I won't tell you his name, but he was wearing one of these huge leather cowboy hats that they were wearing in the 70s and it was a winter's day and there was like a Blizzard outside. So, we were the only people in this Kresky store. So, I, you know, defied the dare. So, this other guy said, well, you see the records over there, I'm going to go over there and I'm gonna steal one of the records. And I looked at him and I said the store is completely empty. There's three of us in this store, He's got this incredible hat on.I mean, I just said I said, you know what? I'm outta here. I'm going back to residence. You know, you guys can do whatever you wanna do. So went back to residence and an hour later the phones in the hall and I get buzzed, saying there's a phone call for you in the hall. I pick up the phone and it's the guy. Well, what do you want from me? Where are you? I'm at the police station. They won't let me out unless somebody comes down and signs for me. And then you know, I can get out. And then I have to go to court, right? TB: So that's just an example of values and I wish it would call that the teenage rebellion culture like these are wild and maybe they settled down and they're couple years. TV: I think you know, again, I've never been brought up in a small town. You know, I've been brought up in the big city and I said, you know, a disciplined home, first-generation Canadian from a European family where it's, you know, you know, the father, the head of the family says, as long as you, as long as you live in my house and you he really said this: when I tell you to jump, you jump and halfway up I'll tell you how high. And if you don't wanna follow my rules and you go and get your own house, like, that's the type of, you know, European for general, you know, home that I was brought up and so looking at these people from small towns, I think they just had a different set of values and I think they saw Ottawa as the big city and that, that, and ou're right that here is a chance for them to act up. TB: Yeah and rebel. TV: And not be impressed with the bigness college. TB: That was part of breaking away from your parents. I mean cycle and the value you know (verify) TV: I must say that you're on to something. I had that same feeling in a sense, but I always had. A desire to push my parents and their insistence on Estonian background to the second level and bring my Canadian to the front level most of my Estonian friends remained in the Estonian culture, and I said to my parents when I moved to Ottawa you and everything I said, you know, this is an important step for me because you know what? I am Canadian first, Estonian background. Second, never, ever question that. So, I'm not gonna waste my time going to Estonian dance. Hmm group or the literature group, I said. I want the Canadian experience, so I'll take that time and I'll learn about French, Canadian literature, and culture. So, that was a little bit of my revolt. But there was a bit of patriotism thing. TB: I want to go back to something you said because that might help to explain it. You said, well, you identified as a flower child. Like you were influenced by The Beatles, but what did that mean? TV: OK, you listen to the beat of people who give me, give you an example. So classical music at home records, you know, but your parents control the record player. So, it was classical records. The only other music there was Nat King Cole, I think, and I think there were some Sinatra disks. So, one day I went out and I bought one of The Beatles albums. This would have been what, 66-65 TB: 1966 (actually 1964) when they were first coming in with the British invasion? TV: Yeah. And I put and I put that on the record player in the living room and my dad. My dad walks in. What on Earth is that? What is that stuff, and take that off. And why are you playing this it? Because I like it. I like it and that was sort of it. I was surprised because he didn't challenge me on that. Usually, I was challenged on everything like, you know, they determined what type of haircut my mom bought me, all my clothes. TB: you had a crew cut. TV: Yes. TB: And the Beatles cut? TV; Oh please you know I was dying for that. TB: So what? TV: I'll give you an example of how I broke away out of that mode. So my mom wants in a while would give me Her Simpsons card retail card to go downtown to Queen St to buy her a particular fashion patterner or something, and then she would always say while you're there, why don’t you buy something for yourself? So, this would have been 68 I think. So, I went downtown to do some at the store and I bought her pattern or whatever it was. But by saw the Sonny and Cher bell bottoms with flowers and yellow and orange and checks and stripes and I said I have to be happy. TB: Wow. TV: Yeah. So, I bought them. I went home and it gave my mom-- my dad hadn't come home from work at that point-- and gave them my mom. I said to her, Mom, can you hem these pants for me? She's like you just take those things back right now. And when your Dad comes home, I'm gonna tell him, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, what I did was I went upstairs. I've never done any sewing or whatever it is. I went into my mom's sewing kit and I hemmed them, I don't know how I knew how to do it, but I shortened those pants. But I was afraid to come out of my room. So, I heard downstairs my dad was home and there was the usual call. Dinner time to go down. So, I go walking downstairs into the dining room and my dad and my mom were there. TB: They are at the table. TV: Yeah, at the table and I'm just like, I'm modeling these Sonny and Cher flower child, bell bottom pants. And you know what? They didn't say anything. TB; You think they had discussed it? TV: I don't know. I don't know, but nothing. TB: No criticism? TV: Absolutely nothing. From then on, I was able to change my clothes. TB: You think they came to some sort of an assessment at that point, they viewed that as a threat. They were gonna lose their son, or what was the threat presented? TV: I think it was cultural. I think it was saying that you know, like we wanted like at this straight European type of child you know a conservative and not into all of this. You know, cultural revolution and everything, but it was sort of step by step. So it was the music that I wanted to hear. It was, you know, getting the bell bottoms. TB: It seemed like the way you're describing it, you can tell me if I'm right or not for your parents it was a sense of you developing your own identity away from old Estonia, but they didn't see it as like you were becoming liberal, promiscuous? TV; No, no, I think they also found it to be. A reality, you know, a reality in a sense. And I think they understood that you know, I was growing and you know, at one point you have to show some respect and acceptance as such. So you know that was so the music, the clothes. And then after the pants, the hair became, you know, I could go to the Barber alone. And I could decide on, you know, but education, strict control. OK. And I'll never forgive my dad for high school. He forced me to take Latin for five years, and my God, I hated that. TB: It's valuable for history. TV: Oh please, are you kidding? I've never used it day in my life and and and my dad. You know, it was. Oh, my son, if you wanna be a lawyer, you wanna be a pharmacist? Do you wanna be a doctor? TB: You have to know latin. . .. TV: No, please. TB: Latin died ten years later. TV: I think the only thing it helped me with is learning French. TB: Base for languages? TV: Yeah, German. I you know, I've studied German. I've studied Russian, studied some other languages. You know how to parse sends a subject, adjective, adverb, that type of thing. You can go into different languages and that was the other great thing about the public school system and taking English was that they took. We took grammar. So you would take it was called parsing, so you would take a sentence in English and identify the subject that a squiggly line, the verb with one bracket for adjectives, square brackets for clauses that but the case is accusative, nominative, that sort of thing. And you really learn skills for almost any language, so this would have been about 2015 in Toronto. I took German cases are very important in German and I was the only I was the oldest person in the class I was the only person who understood when the professor was saying, well, in this particular case, this is the object and it. But it's an object of the preposition, not the verb you know and we went into that and all the younger people in the class of single how do you understand it? All of this stuff, it just clicked because my brother went to school five years after I did, and the grammar study had already changed from forgetting about subject-verb. Just look at the sentence and learn it. TB: So can you go a little bit back to Frosh week? It sounded like all these people, you know, all these people are coming from different backgrounds? TV: Yeah, all over from Ontario. TB: They're broken away from the nest of their parents, and it just seemed like it was a wild party. Do you remember what it was like? You were in a dorm, so it was a party? TV: It was absolutely a party, party, party and you know whichever group that you belong to. You know, it was very difficult to study the group. TB: You belong to the group, the people on your floor that you were assigned to? TV: Yeah,, let's put it this way. All right, the favorite thing was let's skip class. Oh my God. TB: Right. TV: You know, high school. You can't. You get a detention. At university, no one is checking it, so they're in this? Oh, it's not good. You know, let's skip class today and you know, go down to the penny for a beer or whatever it is, right? It got to the point where at the end of the second semester in 3rd year where you have to sit down with your professors and decide on what the subject is for your essay or whatever it is. Why would show up and the professor would look at me and say who are you? I have never seen you before, right? And as a result, I was called into the Dean's office and I was told point blank. Sorry, we're not going to allow you to go on to the 4th year program because your marks are a disaster for 30, for 30-year. Ohhh, my gosh, just like Alex Trebek who got a second chance. TB: you pleaded. TV; I know, I pleaded. And I pleaded and I said, look, this is would be the end of my world. You know, I could never go back home if this happened to me, you know? Please, please, please give me a chance. So, they said. All right. Well, put you on probation. So first, first term, 4th year you're on probation. If you don't get over 65% in everything you know we won't allow you to proceed. Well, did I learn no more parties on Friday, Saturday, Sunday? Totally in the library all the time reading, doing my essays studying, regardless of what my friends said. So, the end of the term, uh, the officers were in the arts building the old arts building. That's where you had your nicer things were just starting to be computerized. Admins, admin, admin for administration. Obviously, we didn't. TB: Ordinary people didn't have computers. TV; So when I went to meet my advisor, I hadn't received my marks yet, because there's always a month delay before you get the paper thing in the mail. So I have scheduled a meeting with my advisor. He said, OK, well, this is the moment of truth. TB: Your marks? TV: I'm gonna click in your file number, and all of the marks are filed now. So this is the moment of truth, and I'm just sitting there saying oh my God. Then the course they came in sort of what you said, 95, 86. You were a little bit uncertain, even though. No, no, I was just, you know, you know. And she's meeting them 95, 85, you know, 82. TB: You did it. TV: I did it, and from that moment on I knew what studying was all about, but that became a very important moment in my life, in the sense of second chances. So, this would have been the year 2004. When I was in Toronto, I had so many different jobs and I don't know if you want to get into that, but at one point I was teaching public relations in a three-year program at Durham College in Oshawa. I lived in Toronto. I commuted so I had a three-year program and so I had students that just came out of high school or I had people who were adults, who were changing their careers. So what I saw was there were many, many students in my first-year class that had trouble adjusting to skipping classes the way I did, you know, goofed around and I could have kicked them out of the program. I had that same serious talk with him. And you know what? Mostly when they graduated, many of them, they were the stars, and won all the awards, and some of the people who were excelling in their first year never graduated in 3rd year, right? So I remember the convocation at one point for after, you know, at the end of the school year and at that college and all of the professors were sitting on the stage behind and then all of the students are named and they come up and they get their diploma and also they get their awards. So we're sitting there and some of my students are coming up in a say, yes, and well, I kicked her out of my classroom. You know, I suspended him for a week because he, you know, he wasn't adjusting. So the little bit of discipline in the talks worked. The second chance seemed to be really working, so the big value that I get from audible, you, and my own experience was in life. You need to give people a second chance and apply standards. TB: Yeah, yeah. Apply standards and have a serious talk. TV: Yeah, but don't just write them off. You have to explore. You know, an opportunity. So that was one of the big, big takeaways from (the university of) Ottawa. TB: If I can just go back to the partying of the early years as one subject, I haven't gone into that, and you can feel free not to answer for whatever reason. But you know the hippie, the element of the free love movement, the pill, and everything else you know what I mean, there was a lot of alcohol and campus. You were talking about recreational judge drugs. To what extent was there, OK, a hook-up culture? TV: OK. Actually, to tell you. OK, so I've always been gay, but I was never active until much later in life and I have to say that in my group. We were not aware that there was any sexuality going on in residence or on the campus. I think we were once in a while. We heard a story about, you know, people, you know, a couple hooking up or here. But in my particular group, no, there was no, no. It was more like goofing off and all that sort of thing, but no hookups, and sexuality was not really that evident in in our group. And it was perfect for me because one of the things that is not really openly discussed in many European families, that generation right- is sexuality. So I never had a discussion with my parents about sexuality until my God, my 40s, when I went home and we had that discussion about being gay. TB: Do you think they suspected? TV: You know, of course, parents know their children. TB: They didn't wanna confirm, but they don't . . . TV: I think they were just parking, you know, park it on the side and don't deal with it and don't. . . TB: Yeah. TV: So, do you want to hear this? I don't know if you want to hear that story, but that's really not related to Ottawa. OK? TB: Well, you can tell whatever stories you want, but one of the things you mention, you were really a Francophile. TV: Yeah. TB: And the impression I got from other people I've interviewed so far, and I'm just at the beginning of the process, that anglophones and francophones, were relatively segregated in the sense that that the class work, there were English and French classes like today. And you know, there was some interaction in the dorms, there was the meeting of anglophones and francophones. TV: Absolutely. I would say that in residence there was no differentiation between francophones and anglophones. Everyone mixed, particularly if you were having lunch or dinner at the cafeteria, you never knew who you were sitting with, but it was camaraderie. And you know, you had many really interesting situations where you had anglophones who didn't speak a word of French, and you had francophones, you had some francophones who didn't speak a word of French (meant English). And to give you an example, one of the great things in residence was ordering a pizza at midnight. TB: That is so universal. TV: Yeah. So, I remember, one day I was responsible for taking the order and there was one guy in our group who was a francophone, who did not speak any English. So my friends at that point were more or less high school French with a little bit of advancement here. And I remember speaking to him and confirming with him what do you want on your pizza? TB: OK. TV: And he clearly told me that the only thing he wanted on his pizza was anchovies. And I looked at him again and I said, Are you sure? I'm Schwab, you know, like in this is what you want? So, the orders came in, and he gets his pizza, and he opens his box, and he has a fit because all it is cheese and anchovies and I said, but that's what you told me. And I asked you several times. So once in a while, like you know . . . TB: Lost in translation. TV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other game in residence that was a lot of fun; and the radio stations and the school came on to it, was we would phone the radio station and say this is the University of Ottawa calling, and all classes are canceled tomorrow. It's a snow day and they would broadcast it over the radio saying that all classes were canceled at the University of Ottawa, right, and it caused total chaos. So finally, the radio stations in the university got smart and I think there was a code number that the university would give the radio station to assure them that it was a valid OK, a valid thing, right? So yeah, we got away with a couple of calls about snow days. TB: You're gonna be a big star for the students. Cause a lot of things you've said are very insightful. We're dealing with society from within, and I just got to go over some stuff that I think I was good. TB: Yeah. TV: And then you can get. TB: Maybe follow up. TV: I just wanted to say a couple of things. So you know, coming to university; the University of Ottawa, of course, as you said the early 70s was a very important time in the world, of transition and just some of the events that are remembered that are related to that in Ottawa was November 1971, they were doing nuclear tests in Alaska and Chittka was the island and there was a lot of turmoil and anti-nuclear movement. And this was my first political expression, and it happened. And we organized ourselves into a demonstration and went to the American Embassy. And I remember having this sign that said bomb Washington, DC, not Chittka! So that was my, you know, first political approach tests. TV: Then, in April 72, Nixon came to Ottawa and he came from the airport. And his limousine went by the driveway just down there. So, all of us ran from the residence down to the driveway to wave as his limo went by. So, I just remember that like a friendly wave, yes, I think it was a friendly wave at that point because, you know, he was the President of the United States. And although we protested this and that Canadians are thought generation was still very much in awe. This was the Big Brother, and we were the smaller TB: OK, because when Trump and Bush came, they got a welcome too. TV: September 72, the Russia-Canada hockey game. TB: Yeah. TV: We were all glued to the television sets in residence for that particular game, and it came across in the afternoon. I think it wasn't an evening broadcast because it was live and when they won and that final goal was scored, the whole campus emptied out downtown with Canadian flags and people were running all over the place. So that was an event that I will never, never forget. TV: Then there was a 1972 the election federal election. Pierre Trudeau was reelected. But it was, I think, with a minority government at that point. So the political parties were very active on campus and recruiting and I was recruited to work for John Turner in AltaVista. Was that was sort of his writing and that's how I sort of became really involved with the Liberal Party at that point TB: door to door? TV: Yes, canvassing and knocking on doors. And you know, it was a really interesting canvassing technique for Turner. So, we as young people would go to an apartment building and knock on all the doors, saying John Turner would be in the lobby in 40 minutes. So, if you want to meet him, come downstairs in 40 minutes and you can talk to him. Then he would come down and we be at the next building, knocking on doors sort of things. So, it was really, really organized and he at that point was looked at as the JFK in waiting like the, you know, they don't of course, you know, Trudeau was the star and everything, but he was already there. But Turner was sort of looked at as the, you know, the leader in waiting. TB: Yeah, yeah. Let's see. The History Department personnel or what I would love to know more. TV: The History department, yeah. So, there were three particular professors of note that I remember from the History Department. Canadian history was what I was studying. There was Jacques Monet and I think he was a. . . TB: an oblate? TV: Yes, an oblate, leftover, and his specialty was the monarchy and the Constitution. And I could not get over that because one of the values that stayed with me from my European background was monarchy. What the heck is that? Right? And, so I've always ended very British, so I've always rejected that. So I was sitting. . . TB: Did they give you Geoffrey Elton to read? TV: Yes, all those types of history. And he became the specialist on the monarchy in Canada for royal visits, and the governor. And I think he had some sort of a book with the Governor General or something like that. And then there was a Philemon Wallet. I think he was a brother as well. I'm not sure, but his specialty was French Canadian nationalism and politics, so he was the one that really gave me an understanding of the Quiet Revolution and an understanding the October Crisis and that sort of thing. Then there was John Trent, who I think was one of the longest-reining professors at the University of Ottawa, and he was a Constitutionalist as well, so I remember taking constitutional history with him. And then there was Dave Broadfoot from Toronto, and he was the first socialist professor that I really ran into. And he wrote a book on the Depression and Canada, which is the Bible Broadfoot on Hatch. (verify) So those are the professors that I sort of . . . TB: There was some Marxism on campus, but it was more in the social sciences? TV: It's worse than I think, it must have been more in the social sciences because really, it wasn't really that evident in the history side because it was past political history, and since I didn't get any Russian history or maybe it came out of that or I didn't study European history as such. But in Canadian history, although there was socialism and Marxism in Canadian history, it really was social history more than political history. But of course, today we know it was a very significant movement now in in not only in Canada but in the United States, that has more or less been overlooked. But I think that's something that social history is really looking into. TB: If I could ask you some basic questions that I think students might be very interested in. I mean, one of the things that students need to do in their advanced courses, in their third and fourth years, you have to write a term paper. So describe to me one of the term paper assignments that one of these professors would assign to you? TB: OK. One good example and this would have been with Wallette. I believed in my studies that the Act of Confederation in 1867 was the Union, you know, of the Canadas. But in my mind, it was the separation of French and English because Quebec became its own province. Previously to 1867, Quebec was part of the Union of Upper Canada on Lower Canada, and he vehemently disagreed with that because he liked to focus on the Union, I wanted to write an essay saying that in fact, in many ways the Confederation Act of 1867 was an act of disunion as much as it was union. TB: So where did you have this debate? TV: In his office and his office in the little building with the crooked floors. And. TB: Yeah. TV: And he just would not hear of it. And then finally, somehow I guess you know he said. OK, I did so I wrote my essay. I made my point, and if I remember I got a very, you know, I got a very decent mark for it and that was the point that I've always wanted to emphasize in that particular area. TB: How long was this term paper? TV: This term paper would have been. 30 pages type double spaced. TB: How many sources? TV: Oh, come on. You know all those days, you know what in those days you go into the, you know, you go to the library says, why should, yeah. In those days, you go to the library with an index box, some recipe cards and elastic bands. TB: OK. TV: And you spend days and days leading these books and noting on these recipe cards quote page font. You know this. So at the end of your research, you've got like a box of recipe cards like this, and you have to sit down and play exact solid hair. Map it out on. You know how on heaven's name are you gonna put this together? TB: Yeah. TV: OK, that was the challenge. And then in resident support, when is the best time to do this? After midnight, when people and you know, and so you're sitting there and you're typing. TB: You went to the lounge to find a big table, which to arrange your cards? TV: Well, no. I had them on the floor on the floor of my residence. And then, of course, you know, at 1:00 o'clock in the morning you're typing because the essay is due the next day and you leave things OK? So, it's like thing your roommates sleeping real people are coming knocking on. They're just, can you please tape your bell? You know, that sort of thing. So yeah, so, that's the way we that's the way you did your essays. TB: These students are so spoiled they just do not understand. We have to go into detail. TV: Yeah. TB: Explain how a typewriter works and how TV: Underwood was the brand. TB: OK. TV: And you know what? And then the only way that you could correct the mistake was by having this liquid, a white liquid that you could put on it. TB: liquid paper! TV: Whatever it is. And, oh, but just as an aside, and that was the course of working in government was if you were writing a letter for someone’s signature, you made a mistake in the last sentence. You have to start all over again because you cannot use liquid paper for a formal document. So, in those days it was a pain in the back. Let me tell you, and then buying ribbons. TB: What about footnotes when you decide to change. . . TV: Yeah, I'm just wrong. My God, you have to. And let's put it this way. When I was doing, you know in the mid 2000s and doing my masters in social history and Toronto. What a difference. My God, you've got everything on your laptop and clean, clean, clean, clean. It's there. And now. Yeah, this paragraph and shift TB: And now you have this, this algorithm, this chat GPT. TV: Actually, you know what? I've actually tried it, and you know, and sometimes it comes up with an answer. You know, I'm new and I'm just learning about this. Yeah, or sorry, I don't give medical advice. You know, there are certain, but yeah, but umm, I think I, you know and I know that professors have a very different view of this. But the chatbot GPT you know, as long as you as the student understand what the chatbot is providing you with and you agree with it and you can source it and then identify that particular source. I wouldn't have a problem with it and I think maybe that's the compromise that, you know, scholars are gonna have to come to say that. TB: Yes, you can use artificial intelligence. TV: You can't deny it, but as long as you are able to go back beyond the well-artificial capture TB: The problem is that the professors are still in the 1970s, the students already looking to 2040 when they don't have to do any work. TV: You know you have to sort of. When again I wasn't that much of an academic professor. German college. It was more or less a, you know, communications course. And II did teach them communications history. And by the way, Mackenzie King, our first Prime Minister, was the first practitioner. Public relations in North America because who was the rich millionaire with the coal mines in the United States? TB: Dale Carnegie? TV: I think it was Carnegie or there was another one. Anyways, he went down. There were coal mine strikes and Mackenzie King went down and taught him how to treat his employees, how to negotiate the strikes, and as things such as you know, what you have to have family picnics. TB: The Harlan County War? TV: Yeah, used to have that family picnics. And you have to do this so our Prime Minister and he was like an incredible Prime Minister during the war as well. If you go back into actually studying what he did, all of the committees and organizations that he had to set up internally within his government during the IT is like totally amazing what this man did. He's identified as a Kook and all that sort of thing, consulting ghosts and everything. But the man was a genius, an organizational, administrative genius. TB: Yeah. We were promised some stories about women on campus. That was one big theme, alright? TV: This goes to orientation week, so orientation week is organized by in residence by the senior guys in the men's residence. At that point, we didn't have, you know, Coed residence. And so I was in Marshall, and I forget what the women's residence was called; Tabaret? TB: No. TV: yes, Stanton, and there were two towers. Men, women, and then the cafeteria joined on two towers underneath, right with a pool room. And that's where it was, you know, mingling. So the seniors in the men's residence organized orientation week, so there were a couple of highlights of orientation week. The first one was the panty raid. Talk about sexism. Alright, so the panty raid, so the senior guys in the men's residence, would you know, lined us all up the newbies and we would have been maybe 50. TB: Hmm. TV: I said OK, so we are now going to do a panty raid. TB: So what you need to do is you need to storm the women's dorm and you need to get into a room and steal a pair of panties and come back and you can't come back until you bring some panties back. TV: Oh my God. So, this I'm telling you, I am not exaggerating, folks. This was totally out of control. TB: Like storming the castle. TV: Oh where they project but it was totally unknown. Give control. So, in order to get into some of these dorms for the women to open at one point, I remember being in a hall where the guys got the water hose, and the fire hose out of the wall and started just blasting it at doors. Unfortunately, this one girl opened the door and the fire hose is going like right into her right into her residence room. People storm in and get their panties. At one point I remember looking at another open door and somehow somebody had taken honey or molasses and poured it all over. Somebody staring. TB: The women didn’t resist? TV: Oh well, I don't think we. I don't think we were there long. Yeah, you know, it's like grab and run. TB: So you hadn't shoplifted before? TV: Well, no. And honestly, I wish I could say that I got a pair of panties I don't remember. OK, I don't remember, but I think I think in the back of my mind, I really knew that it was wrong because I'll tell you one thing, I've always looked at myself as a feminist because even in the so I started my first employment in Parliament in 1974 full time, and at that point, when women and men had different salaries and you know, but you know what, in my entire life, I have never internally differentiated between a colleague being male or female. They've always been colleagues, so I wouldn't understand the difference in salaries. TB: So many people tell me that that they, didn't have this gender bias. TV: No. TB: But we did hear a story last night. One of the female students was talking about how when she would walk around campus they would whistle and pinch her butt. TV: Uh, that, you know, like that I that I didn't see that. I didn't see, but again, there were two types of guys. I think there's like the not saying an enlightened but sort of the oblivious to gender type of people that I associate with. But there was always the type of guy, and once in awhile you meet one of these men. Adults today, where they refer to their the wife, Umm. And so, the remember there was one guy in our group who was going out with somebody and he always said my girl never used her name or something. Then I remember one time I said, I said, does she have a name? Like, why are you always saying my girl? What is her name? Use her name for Heaven’s sakes, right? TB: What did he say? TV: He got very angry and told me to mind my own business, but I just found that, you know, or the wave, umm, uh now. So the panty raid was one thing, then let me tell you two things. You're gonna second thoughts about sharing yesterday, so we ran to the market and we got live lobsters. TB: Oh no. TV: Somehow we got into the women's dorm and went to the washroom with some of the girls were taking showers, and put the live lobsters into the shower through behind the curtain. And the screen. Can you imagine that? So yeah, I wouldn't wait. Yeah. No, that sounds like a plan. OK. TV: And I did this. I admit that I did this so 4th year when I was on the team of organizing. TB: You were studious. TV: Yeah. Well, no. Would have been. It would. Yeah, I would have been where I had to be studious. You still? I don't remember. So then we said, OK, you know what? We're gonna do with the with this new crew. So we went into the washroom toilets and we took peanut butter. We smeared it all over the seats so it looked like you know what? Then we called the guys in line them up in the Washington. Alright, who did this? This is disgusting that I walked up to the toilet seat like this. Right. You know what? It's. Can you imagine that? And the other thing in the girl's residence was putting Saran wrap underneath the toilet of seat. I've asked to be like the oldest joke. Ohh, you know they didn't notice it. Yeah. Well, of course they did, because you know sort of thing before they sat down. They would know. Ohh yes, later then just. I'm gonna give you two other little stories. One was so these people from small towns, rabble rousers. Uh. Fire. Fire was. I don't know. They were. This particular group was just like into fire, so 4:00 o'clock in the residence woman's residents, usually people come back from class, go up the elevator, go to the rooms, dump off their books, come down the elevator to go into the cafeteria. So these guys went to the second floor and stopped the elevator and I was down on the 1st floor to see what being told to. You need to stay on the 1st floor and see what happens. So there's a mob of people waiting on the 1st floor get into the elevator. The elevator comes down from the 2nd floor. The people move forward to get in. They had stuff newspaper on the floor of the elevator and set a fire. So the doors opened and the leaves are coming up from, you know, and people Ruby forward to get in the elevator. I could not believe that second fire story. They took bed sheets and they tied them together and hung them out the window on the side of the building. So the bed sheets went down four floors, then somebody went down to the bottom of the floor to the floor, where the bed sheet was, and lit it on fire. So that the bed sheets were on fire all the way up to the, you know, so, these were some absolutely unbelievable. . . I don't know where the ideas came from. I can't believe that these people weren't arrested or expelled from residence. TB: I have a question about it. It seems like the generation before the 60s generation, they did some of these stunts and there seemed to be a purpose for it, like fighting for social justice. Your generation seemed to be like animal house. TV: It was just, yeah, playing. So this is, let me tell you that is I've never seen the movie because that's not the type of movie I would ever go to see to begin with, but from what people have talked about, yeah, it was like goons. It was just absolutely out of control. TB: Craziness and I don't know, is it youth acting out their wild oats? TV: Sewing up I think. Basically, I think it had to be made. I don't think everyone shared that particular view. I have a feeling it may have been mental problem or you know, psychology TB: Were they more anglophones? TV: These well, they were anglophones from small anglophone town. The francophones were more studious, more studious. I would say well from the group that I knew and the group that I would hang out with, you know that was my choice. But no, I think that though this craziness, I think maybe it was something to do with the they're bup bringing or I can't say that it was like a value by the time other than it was insanity and maybe it was a branch of the orientation week where basically people were told to be crazy. TB: Bbut they were rebels without a cause. There was no. . . TV: Yeah, they were. Absolutely. They were. I think they were just crazy out to do. Business type of thing where you've testified very long. TB: I don't wanna tire you out, but if you have at least 5 minutes, I'd have a few more questions about the department. TV: No, no, absolutely ask me. TB: I just wanted to just double check. I just wanted to return to something you mention before about fashion. TV; Ohh great. TB: OK, great. TV: So wooden clogs TB: Klompen? TV: Yeah. So the from Europe about two years after everyone was wearing Caso was in Sweden at one point. At that point, Guy family there, everyone on campus was wearing wooden clogs. TB: You don't see them anymore, right? TV: But yes, so it wouldn't clogs bell bottom jeans and then cowboy boots and the cowboy boots were very special. They were the brown, tall boots with the square toe. Because the square toe would go into the is sterile. Disturb. TV: Alright, but So what? You would have to do what I was taught from these people, from the small town. I had to get pair of these boots to be cool, but to be really cool you buy the boots with the square toe. Then you have to soak the boots in water until they're soft. Take a hammer and then round out the square toe so it's round. So then you end up with the same cowboy boot. TV: The type of thing food, the highlight of the cafeteria food, you know? Ohh my, it turns my stomach Hawaiian pizza. Can you imagine pizza with pineapple on it? I don't know, but that was the go to invented, OK? And if you were sophisticated and you went out to a restaurant at that period, you would be ordering schedule Brionne for two. TB: OK. TV: Because you it only came for two, you would be drinking horrible sweet matuse wine. And for dessert, you would have Black Forest cake, Black Forest cake. That was like the top of it. You know, if you're going out on a date with that sort of thing, and I think I have said. Everything. TV: So you can ask me 5 the questions that you want.. TB: You're gonna be a star witness, so I wanna go a little bit more into. I just wanna go back to something that you just mentioned like the clothes you wore. So once you came to campus, you were your own person. You could choose your own clothes. Did your hair go down? Did your shave less? TV: Oh, you know what this where for one year. The rebellious year, when I didn't go to class and all that sort of thing. Yes, the hair came down to my shoulder. I was told when I went home for Christmas by all my relatives about parents that I looked like meathead on what was that program meathead? The American sitcom Edith and Archie Bunker. TB: Archie Bunker, all in the family. TV: Yeah, All in the Family. Yeah, meathead was the guy who married his daughter, right? So, the mustache I gained weight to that. I would look like meathead, so that's what I looked like. And then, yeah, the clogs, the bell bottoms and then, you know, basically sweatshirt or whatever it is. And that's how you dress. TB: So yeah, it seemed like there was a hair war like the teenagers or the the university students would wear it long and their parents would definitely comment on it. TV: It would be like the first thing when you came in the door, so that was kind of what it was. But Beatles started it right with The Beatles MOP. TB: Yeah. TV: Mop haircuts and then it became rather bohemian, I say. TB: But did the parents generation, did they view that a rejection of their culture? Or did they worry, what did this signify that you think? TV: I think parents very much understood. At one point, you know, after The Beatles became accepted that that I think what The Beatles did more than just give us great music and help people like me rebel against my parents’ culture and everything was they made my parents generation, except the shift of generations. I think with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and the long hair and the fashion, the pair, that generation finally realized- the postwar generation-that there had been a generational shift and that they that they no longer were. TB: So you had the Beatniks before. They were making some of these hippy ideas more mainstream and acceptable. They were transitioning into. TV: I think that, I think the Beatnik culture that is there was there are two parts to that, the elitist poetry and you know, the artistic group and then the general. Public kids that adopted some of the you know. So, living in Toronto and the 666768, the Yorkville Village which is now like one of the most expensive areas of the city was where all the coffee houses were. So, we would become weekend. So, what would happen is that you would dress up like a hippie on Saturday and Sunday and go and hang out there. TB: And then go back home and transform into the regular person. TV: Yeah, you know, so I think that was it, but no. But I think The Beatles helped and The Rolling Stones helped; the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah, they helped the post war generation to accept that the transition had been made. And in particular, when Boston Symphony and some of these orchestra started playing classical versions of Beatles songs, because previous to that, that the afterward generation, this is trash, this is garbage. It isn't even music. Well, we're in Arthur Fiedler started incorporating Beatles songs into his Sunday concerts, and they started playing that on the radio. All of a sudden that generation of my parents were saying, well, really TB: What about the relationship between music and dancing? Did your parents have an issue with dancing? TV: I think dancing is every generation. I think it's accepted by every generation. You have to keep up with the changes in dancers. I don't think dancers big as with music, right? Like I think it's an accepted thing that you've got to dance the latest dance craze that's part of dancing. TB: Did they feel that rock'n'roll was connected to sexuality in some ways, like there was a joke in in Michigan that you didn't have sex standing up because it could lead to dancing, like the ministers would forget if you promote. TV: Yeah, but isn't that the whole in the United States, the whole thing about, you know, black music bleeding juristic and I don't think we have that in Canada. I don't think that because you know, like Tian, Warwick and the Motown sound and all that that, you know, I was brought up in Toronto and yeah, it's we worship that. TB: Yeah. TV: And there was not a problem with. Don't think that or with Elvis. Maybe with Elvis Presley? From what I've read, you know the hips and all that sort of thing at the very beginning. Yeah, maybe that was a big issue, but that was sort of a little bit before, before my time. TB: Did you listen to funk music during those times? TV; What did I listen to? I'm trying to what I listened to was Bob Dylan here on campus and remember having his records, Neil Young, we worshipped because he just came out with his two big albums, right TB: Harvest? TV: That was the later one. Canada's Gordon Lightfoot. But definitely which rock wise it would have been Alice to be cool, right? So, you know, I had limited music experience in Toronto. So coming here, I learned to love Alice Cooper. You know that that type of thing, but just to get back to dancing and, you know, I don't wanna the sidetrack. TB: So you're saying about, we know, did did older generations present the changes in dance music and let's put it this way. TV: And when disco came in, I was in high school. Sorry, no, I was at Glendon College at that point. And the discos were in Yorkville as well. So I remember going out with my friends to this disco in Yorkville. And so we show up at this disco. We go into this disco, we get seated and we're ready to go on the dance floor.Lo and behold, my mother and father are dancing on the dance floor. TB: Hmm. TV: Ohh my God, I said. Let's get the hell out of here. I think it was called Applebee's or Apple bums or something like that. Yeah, that's so, I don't think parents. So they want they want to be cool. TBL Just five more minutes. Walk me into Monet’s classroom. How many women are there? How many men? How many people have long hair? What is the class like? TV: OK, so I don't think there were very many women in any of my Canadian history classes that I remember, but it was everybody basically looked the same. I think everyone had long hair. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: Or longish hair and most people were wearing clogs or, you know, it was sort of like it's a thing. TB: how big were the classes? TV: There were maybe 10 people, 11 people. There were a few classes held in a different building where there may have been 20 people at the most. One of the great things about classrooms and courses that you had to take was you had to take philosophy in order to get a history degree. TB: Critical Reasoning? TV: Ohhh my gosh did that come useful in life. Ohh my Lord. Absolutely. And that's what I've always said to people is you can tell the difference between someone who's taken philosophy and is university educated in someone who is just high school educated, because when you get into a discussion with somebody who hasn't been in university, everything they talk about was from personal experience. I saw I did. I heard my friend. TB: Did you know somebody from university? TV: Its ideas OK, it's not at all based on personal experience. You take an idea from somewhere and then you incorporate it into your argument or your discussion. It's very, very rarely is it based on personal experience, but yet people who don't have that benefit of that post secondary education are very much restricted to the real physical world. What they've experienced, what they've seen, that's the limit to their discussion. TB: Did you, when you were on campus, did you go to high culture places like the Arts Center, the cinemas? TV: Yes, that would go to the to the Art Center to see all of the French singers and this little church on the corner. TB: Sacre Coeur TV: So I could OK it burned down in 1978. I think when it was still going when I was here. They had a little coffee club in the basement. All and, you know French Canadian artists had a very limited area for gigs. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: And they're, you know, and they didn't earn all that much money. So all of the famous Quebec singers would come to this levia cloche, it was called, and they would sing in the basement. So, it was like money from that generation money clairac, he said. They'll Pierre and explode, Claude debois. Robert charlebois. And you know, so, you know, all these French singers and some absolutely. TB: Yeah. TV: And the running anglophones friends know those as well or yes, because the yeah, even the notorious gang, we would go down to, we would go, we we would go to that. But I was sort of the Francophile, leading the group, right? So, even once I graduated, when I was living here in Ottawa with my anglophone friends, I was always the guy who would say, OK, you know, Salvatore Adamo, you know, Saki is coming to the CNA. We've got to go and see him. Aznavour is coming. They called is coming. We must go and see, you know, even if you never heard of him, is important to go and see, right. TB: Yeah., I mean, you're gonna be a big star here. TV: I don't really. TBL You got you got us into some really important topics, TV: But definitely, you know, if you're talking about women and sexism, it was very much evident. TV: Umm. TB: In the values that that time, unfortunately, and I don't know what and again I'm trying to think, I don't think there were very many very many. I don't think there was a single history for Canadian history professor who was a female. No, at that particular time and the students who were talking less than 10%. Yeah. TV: And I I did have the only female professor that I had during my two years here . . I I took a course in Canadian literature which you believe it. She was from Dallas, TX with a heavy Texas accent and she said alright folks, you know this time of year I'd be at the Cotton Bowl and the Sun would be shining and and you know, blah blah blah. And now let's open our books and turn to page 59. We're gonna study a poem by Al Purdy. And you know what? And then I want you to read the poem on page 9 to 5. Leonard Cohen. Yeah, it was really interesting to have an American from. I don't know what she's doing. You know how she ended up studying Canadian literature? TB: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 95% of Canadians didn't even know who else heard he was at that point. Right? So yeah, so definitely even within faculty, there seemed to be a big lack of females and it could be the religious background at that point of the a lot of Jesus, the Jesuit tradition, classical studies at that point. But I tell you this university is fantastic. And I am so proud of it. I want, you know, I'm supporting it because it is contributing a lot and just walk along. Go to the cafeteria. Look at the young people you know. I was talking to a few of them yesterday when we were having lunch and you know there one guy was studied kinetics. I don't know, I think this is like chemistry, engineering or whatever it is, TB: It's human kinetics? TV: Yeah. So I said to him, I said, what in hell’s name do you wanna do with kinetics? And you said, well, I'm still trying to figure that one out. TB: Yeah, it's like movement at the body. TV: OK, there these electrical shocks and no, it has to do TB: Like we're kind of biomechanical wrecks cause we don't walk properly and everything else. TV: So, he could get into like sports fitness or something like that makes. TB: yeah. TV: Well, listen, I hope that I haven't. insulted anyone. Personally, I haven't mentioned names. -END INTERVIEW Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vares, Thomas (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about growing up in an Estonian family in postwar Toronto, moving to Ottawa to pursue a fascination with francophone language and culture, and the wild experiences of the first year of study as well as nurturing environment of the Department of History. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-11-10 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-M39RtSf81k?si=NhAqWguW1AbmYX9Z" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Canadian History Dorms Gender Hippies Party Culture Popular Music Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Student Life University of Ottawa Person An individual. Birthplace Toronto, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1974-1975 Degree MA Career education Religious Culture Catholic Christian Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation LGBTQ+ Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vares, Thomas Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bendall, Alex Location The location of the interview Boston, Massachusetts, United States Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.880 Alex Bendall All right, sounds good. 0:0:1.90 --> 0:0:5.930 Puffer, Sheila Mm hmm. And if you have 3 themes it would be good if you could tell me what the three themes are as an overview. 0:0:6.840 --> 0:0:22.680 Alex Bendall Absolutely. So there's like I have about a few sentences to start each one. The first one is the impact of culture. The second one is the feminist experience. And the third one is. 0:0:23.960 --> 0:0:25.800 Alex Bendall Ideology and generational differences. 0:0:30.990 --> 0:0:33.510 Puffer, Sheila So the first one is the influence of pop culture. 0:0:34.740 --> 0:0:35.60 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:0:35.610 --> 0:0:36.450 Puffer, Sheila On what? 0:0:38.40 --> 0:0:40.960 Alex Bendall Just popular culture of the 1970s in general. 0:0:41.630 --> 0:0:44.990 Puffer, Sheila Oh, the influence of it, or just my experience with it. 0:0:48.610 --> 0:0:57.890 Alex Bendall I guess your experience, I think that, yeah, this whole interview, it's about like your experience from University of Ottawa in the 1970s, so. 0:0:59.290 --> 0:1:0.810 Alex Bendall My first question is. 0:1:1.180 --> 0:1:6.540 Puffer, Sheila Wait, I'd. I'm so that is the first theme. The second one was feminist. 0:1:7.830 --> 0:1:10.270 Alex Bendall Yeah. The second one is the feminist experience. 0:1:11.930 --> 0:1:29.530 Alex Bendall So, like cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave of feminism. That is part of the counterculture movement and with women during their early 1970s sought to break gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? 0:1:30.590 --> 0:1:33.190 Puffer, Sheila OK. So we're just talking about the early 1970s. 0:1:33.990 --> 0:1:34.270 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:1:35.260 --> 0:1:37.700 Puffer, Sheila What time span do you want? 0:1:39.510 --> 0:1:42.30 Alex Bendall Uh, whenever you were attending UOttawa. 0:1:42.430 --> 0:1:43.670 Puffer, Sheila I was there for a long time. 0:1:44.560 --> 0:1:45.640 Alex Bendall How long were you there for? 0:1:46.110 --> 0:1:46.710 Puffer, Sheila Eight years. 0:1:47.460 --> 0:1:48.140 Alex Bendall Eight years. 0:1:48.420 --> 0:1:49.100 Puffer, Sheila I think so. 0:1:50.800 --> 0:1:51.440 Puffer, Sheila Let me see. 0:1:57.660 --> 0:1:59.700 Puffer, Sheila 71 to 79. 0:2:0.830 --> 0:2:1.350 Alex Bendall Perfect. 0:2:0.860 --> 0:2:3.580 Puffer, Sheila That's eight years. 0:2:4.680 --> 0:2:4.880 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:2:5.620 --> 0:2:6.660 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, I think I got my. 0:2:8.300 --> 0:2:10.500 Puffer, Sheila Yes, I got my MBA in 1979. 0:2:11.920 --> 0:2:11.960 Puffer, Sheila OK. 0:2:13.580 --> 0:2:16.100 Puffer, Sheila All right. Yeah, it's a long time ago, Alex. 0:2:19.260 --> 0:2:19.580 Puffer, Sheila Alright. 0:2:19.410 --> 0:2:19.930 Alex Bendall I'll just. 0:2:21.110 --> 0:2:21.350 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:2:21.810 --> 0:2:23.970 Alex Bendall Just tell me whatever you can, but whatever you remember. 0:2:24.130 --> 0:2:25.690 Puffer, Sheila Yep. And then the third thing is. 0:2:27.280 --> 0:2:28.400 Alex Bendall The third thing. 0:2:29.920 --> 0:2:33.680 Alex Bendall Is also part of what they call a counterculture revolution. 0:2:35.400 --> 0:2:44.600 Alex Bendall Meaning your generation tend, like, rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. So what would be your experience with that topic? 0:2:45.980 --> 0:2:46.700 Puffer, Sheila I see. 0:2:49.420 --> 0:2:50.380 Puffer, Sheila Same. OK. 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Puffer, Sheila OK. 0:2:54.500 --> 0:3:1.540 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. Alright, yeah. It's a little different from what I was expecting, but that's quite alright. So please go ahead. 0:3:1.230 --> 0:3:2.750 Alex Bendall Yep, alright. 0:3:5.390 --> 0:3:8.430 Alex Bendall So for the first question about popular culture. 0:3:10.170 --> 0:3:21.250 Alex Bendall There were obviously less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:3:27.690 --> 0:3:28.930 Puffer, Sheila Went skating on the canal. 0:3:30.310 --> 0:3:30.510 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:3:32.350 --> 0:3:33.230 Puffer, Sheila Too bad you couldn't do it. 0:3:32.820 --> 0:3:37.60 Alex Bendall I tried to do that. Yeah, exactly. I tried to do that last year. It didn't didn't work out. 0:3:37.740 --> 0:3:38.340 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, mm hmm. 0:3:40.700 --> 0:3:41.100 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:3:43.170 --> 0:3:46.770 Puffer, Sheila Having a small group of friends over. 0:3:48.480 --> 0:3:48.800 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:3:49.90 --> 0:3:51.10 Puffer, Sheila Socializing with small groups of friends. 0:3:54.720 --> 0:3:57.840 Alex Bendall Whereabouts on campus? Did you live? 0:4:0.430 --> 0:4:2.510 Puffer, Sheila First year I lived in a brand new building. 0:4:4.630 --> 0:4:4.750 Alex Bendall Oh. 0:4:5.80 --> 0:4:6.400 Puffer, Sheila It was a high rise. 0:4:7.480 --> 0:4:9.280 Puffer, Sheila It was across from Le Blanc Hall. 0:4:13.90 --> 0:4:16.90 Puffer, Sheila And it was Coed. The different floors were Coed. 0:4:18.180 --> 0:4:18.300 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. 0:4:21.240 --> 0:4:22.600 Puffer, Sheila Can't remember the name of it now. 0:4:24.200 --> 0:4:24.600 Alex Bendall That's fine. 0:4:23.900 --> 0:4:26.580 Puffer, Sheila Was brand new that year in 1971. 0:4:28.600 --> 0:4:28.800 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:4:28.160 --> 0:4:28.880 Puffer, Sheila Think it came in. 0:4:30.440 --> 0:4:31.720 Puffer, Sheila Yes, I came in 71. 0:4:35.460 --> 0:4:35.500 Alex Bendall N. 0:4:38.150 --> 0:4:42.230 Alex Bendall What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? 0:4:44.280 --> 0:4:45.800 Puffer, Sheila Oh, father and son. 0:4:48.280 --> 0:4:50.0 Alex Bendall Is that-... what was that? 0:4:50.370 --> 0:4:51.130 Puffer, Sheila It's a restaurant. 0:4:51.780 --> 0:4:52.780 Alex Bendall Restaurant. Yeah. OK. 0:4:53.440 --> 0:4:57.160 Puffer, Sheila It's still there or it was there the last time I was there, like a couple of years ago. 0:4:58.220 --> 0:4:59.620 Alex Bendall I don't think I've seen that yet. 0:5:4.220 --> 0:5:4.460 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:4:59.720 --> 0:5:5.800 Puffer, Sheila Well, obviously it's a classic. It's been around for over 50 years. It was old by then when I was there. 0:5:7.280 --> 0:5:12.520 Puffer, Sheila Another one was there was a marvelous lunch place inside a church on Laurier. 0:5:14.280 --> 0:5:14.480 Alex Bendall OK. 0:5:14.960 --> 0:5:18.280 Puffer, Sheila Was really, really good food. Yeah, we used to go there a lot. 0:5:19.440 --> 0:5:19.920 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:5:27.360 --> 0:5:37.680 Alex Bendall Did you attend any live music events during university years or what were the most popular musicians or artists at that time? Are your favorites maybe. 0:5:38.340 --> 0:5:47.180 Puffer, Sheila Hmm, I used to go to the National Arts Centre regularly. My husband and I had subscriptions to both the French and the English theater. 0:5:48.600 --> 0:5:49.120 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:5:52.80 --> 0:6:2.640 Puffer, Sheila And we went to see just about everybody who came through. So we saw people who are long dead now. We saw in terms of music, we saw Buddy Rich, the drummer. 0:6:4.650 --> 0:6:5.330 Puffer, Sheila We saw. 0:6:12.210 --> 0:6:14.770 Puffer, Sheila With oh, Oh my gosh, we saw. 0:6:17.180 --> 0:6:18.500 Puffer, Sheila Not sure how they found you. 0:6:21.780 --> 0:6:23.780 Puffer, Sheila His name was Gilbert Becaud. 0:6:25.340 --> 0:6:51.580 Puffer, Sheila And my husband and I used to laugh because we were laughing through the performance because he was a heavy smoker. He was a singer. Fabulous, like Tom Jones or something like that. He was really charismatic. And in between songs, he would go off stage and you could see the cigarette smoke billowing out from behind that curtain. And then he'd come out and he'd sing another song. 0:6:52.900 --> 0:6:55.180 Puffer, Sheila He didn't last long, but he was really good. 0:6:59.490 --> 0:7:0.90 Alex Bendall That's great. 0:7:1.0 --> 0:7:5.840 Puffer, Sheila So we used to go to pretty much everybody who came to the National Arts Centre. 0:7:7.200 --> 0:7:13.0 Puffer, Sheila And we occasionally went to that fair, the exhibition where the animals were. 0:7:15.360 --> 0:7:21.0 Puffer, Sheila It was called the Ex, something like that, I forget what it's called. Some sort of agricultural fair down by Lansdowne. 0:7:22.160 --> 0:7:27.160 Alex Bendall Oh yeah, yeah, like the big barn they have there beside Lansdowne Park. Yeah, OK, I know. 0:7:26.380 --> 0:7:29.500 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. So the animal competitions and. 0:7:30.410 --> 0:7:31.170 Alex Bendall Oh yeah. OK. 0:7:31.430 --> 0:7:34.670 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. So it was pretty simple stuff. 0:7:37.540 --> 0:7:38.740 Puffer, Sheila But in terms of? 0:7:40.420 --> 0:7:40.980 Puffer, Sheila Let me see. 0:7:42.440 --> 0:7:48.200 Puffer, Sheila OK, so anyway, go ahead. What else have you got to ask me? Those are a few little nuggets. 0:7:49.380 --> 0:7:53.940 Alex Bendall That's great. Like who? Who's your favorite musician of that time, do you think? 0:7:54.640 --> 0:7:55.480 Puffer, Sheila Gordon Lightfoot. 0:7:56.540 --> 0:7:57.740 Alex Bendall Gordon Lightfoot? Yeah. 0:8:2.130 --> 0:8:2.330 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:7:58.980 --> 0:8:3.500 Alex Bendall Didn't he pass away? Like pretty recently? I feel like I heard that recently. Yeah. 0:8:4.30 --> 0:8:10.750 Puffer, Sheila And I heard him in Boston, where I live ,about 10 years ago, and his voice was just shot. 0:8:11.900 --> 0:8:12.460 Alex Bendall That's too bad. 0:8:12.520 --> 0:8:15.320 Puffer, Sheila But he was still performing because he loved to perform. Yeah. 0:8:15.390 --> 0:8:15.630 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:8:18.130 --> 0:8:22.970 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, he didn't have much lung capacity at the time. But anyway, yeah, Gordon Lightfoot. 0:8:25.430 --> 0:8:25.630 Alex Bendall In. 0:8:27.560 --> 0:8:29.840 Alex Bendall OK. My next question is. 0:8:31.50 --> 0:8:48.10 Alex Bendall Since Ottawa U was a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s, like did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same courses and participate in the same clubs and all hang out together? Or is it really kind of separated a bit? Puffer, Sheila We pretty much enrolled in the same courses and participated in the same clubs. Native French-speaking students took courses in English and spoke English in the clubs, but typically not vice versa. 0:8:53.500 --> 0:8:53.700 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:8:51.430 --> 0:8:55.550 Puffer, Sheila I grew up in numerous cities across Canada that are English speaking cities. 0:8:59.550 --> 0:8:59.870 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:9:1.470 --> 0:9:6.790 Puffer, Sheila I started learning French in Thunder Bay Ontario when I was 11. 0:9:10.870 --> 0:9:17.910 Puffer, Sheila And so I had basic French and I wanted to be a translator and interpreter for the UN from French to English, since English is my mother tongue. So why I came to the University of Ottawa was to study in the School of Translators and Interpreters. 0:9:34.160 --> 0:9:48.320 Puffer, Sheila I was one of two native English speaking people in that programme which was designed for French speakers to translate to, do translation and interpretation into English. 0:9:49.190 --> 0:9:52.110 Puffer, Sheila So essentially I did the programme backwards. 0:9:53.310 --> 0:9:53.510 Puffer, Sheila Right. 0:9:53.850 --> 0:9:54.10 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:9:54.950 --> 0:10:1.590 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. And I I, uh, tried to, uh, engage in virtually as many things in French as I could. 0:10:14.900 --> 0:10:19.140 Puffer, Sheila So I was learning French all the time there and. 0:10:20.780 --> 0:10:37.260 Puffer, Sheila I would go to French speaking events, but I would say overall the English speaking students kept to themselves and the French speaking students kept to themselves except when they took courses offered in English. But I was in an exceptional programme there where I was the outlier, one of two outliers, right? 0:10:48.810 --> 0:11:10.530 Puffer, Sheila Umm, on campus and everywhere around Ottawa, I would insist on having people speak to me in French. But as soon as I opened my mouth, even though I spoke French, you know reasonably well, they could tell that I was an Anglophone and they would kind of politely or automatically switch into English. And I would have to say no, no, no. 0:11:12.350 --> 0:11:12.510 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:48.680 Puffer, Sheila And I had a stenographer's book. You don't know what that is, but it's a lined book and it coil and it has lines, vertical lines, excuse me, horizontal lines and then a vertical line down the middle. And I filled up several of those books where I learned a French word. And then I found the English translation. So I definitely came out of the University of Ottawa, bilingual. And when I. 0:11:52.130 --> 0:11:56.650 Puffer, Sheila But I did switch my major from the school of translators and interpreters. 0:12:2.340 --> 0:12:2.860 Alex Bendall Interesting. 0:11:58.50 --> 0:12:8.130 Puffer, Sheila To Slavic Studies, my undergraduate degree is in Slavic Studies because, yeah, you had to take another language when you were in the school of translators and interpreters. 0:12:13.210 --> 0:12:17.970 Puffer, Sheila Umm I was advised by a professor not at Ottawa, in another translator school at Laurentian University, where I started out. 0:12:35.570 --> 0:12:35.890 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:12:28.940 --> 0:12:51.900 Puffer, Sheila All the French speaking students were all going to take Spanish as their third language and I thought, well, I'll do that too. But the director of that translation and interpretation programme took me aside and said, “You know, you can take Spanish anytime. I suggest a more challenging language for you.” “Oh, really?” “I suggest Russian.” I said, “OK.” 0:12:52.340 --> 0:12:56.660 Puffer, Sheila So I not only fell in love with Russian. 0:12:57.700 --> 0:13:1.180 Puffer, Sheila And all things Slavic. When I met my husband. 0:13:3.100 --> 0:13:11.100 Puffer, Sheila Thanks to the University of Ottawa and I was 18 years old. And if you're gonna ask me, are you gonna ask me about clubs? 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.80 Puffer, Sheila OK. Well then I'll save it for clubs. 0:13:17.300 --> 0:13:23.180 Alex Bendall No, it's OK. You can tell me how I'm kind of like already in the club section. You can keep going. 0:13:22.350 --> 0:13:25.230 Puffer, Sheila Alright, thank you. OK, so. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.240 Puffer, Sheila January 5th, 1972 at 6:00 PM. 0:13:33.630 --> 0:13:41.390 Puffer, Sheila I showed up in Professor Douglas Clayton's office. 0:13:42.830 --> 0:13:44.590 Puffer, Sheila Second course in second year Russian with him. 0:13:46.350 --> 0:14:0.910 Puffer, Sheila And he said come to my office at that time if you're interested in starting up a Russian social club, Slavic social club called Slavyansky Bazar. That's what he was calling it. Slavic bazaar. And guess who showed up? 0:14:2.40 --> 0:14:12.80 Puffer, Sheila Maybe three or four other students, including my future husband, who was a graduate student. He was doing his master's in Russian literature. 0:14:13.580 --> 0:14:17.780 Puffer, Sheila Well, right then and there in that professor's office. 0:14:20.450 --> 0:14:26.690 Puffer, Sheila That graduate student and myself just thought it was the coup de foudre. Do you know about coup de foudre? 0:14:28.940 --> 0:14:29.500 Puffer, Sheila Oh, OK. 0:14:31.220 --> 0:14:32.300 Puffer, Sheila I guess love at first sight. 0:14:33.250 --> 0:14:33.770 Alex Bendall Oh, OK, yeah. 0:14:33.980 --> 0:14:37.460 Puffer, Sheila But I love the expression coup de foudre because it means lightning struck. 0:14:39.730 --> 0:14:40.10 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:42.40 Puffer, Sheila OK, so. 0:14:46.830 --> 0:14:47.750 Puffer, Sheila We got married. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.0 Puffer, Sheila Very soon after that. 0:14:52.220 --> 0:14:55.180 Puffer, Sheila And we were married for. 0:14:56.740 --> 0:14:57.820 Puffer, Sheila Almost 30 years. 0:14:59.300 --> 0:15:0.780 Puffer, Sheila And he passed away from cancer. 0:15:2.220 --> 0:15:10.300 Puffer, Sheila 20 years ago. We had two kids and we had a great life and I'm forever grateful to Doctor Douglas Clayton for inviting students to create the Slavianski Bazaar Club, and we did, and we had a really good time at that club. We had dances and we had parties and the professors came. 0:15:27.380 --> 0:15:34.260 Puffer, Sheila So very special. I had to get that in there somewhere that my life is completely. 0:15:38.710 --> 0:15:39.590 Puffer, Sheila Fulfilled. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.160 Puffer, Sheila Having had a, you know, a family life like that. 0:15:45.140 --> 0:15:46.820 Puffer, Sheila Having met my husband there. 0:15:49.30 --> 0:15:51.470 Alex Bendall I'm sorry to hear about him. That's a great story. 0:16:0.150 --> 0:16:0.550 Alex Bendall All right. 0:16:0.720 --> 0:16:4.200 Puffer, Sheila By the way, Alex, in case you didn't guess, that was my favorite club. 0:16:8.320 --> 0:16:10.720 Alex Bendall Good. Have you ever been to Russia? 0:16:11.470 --> 0:16:12.390 Puffer, Sheila Many times. 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:13.760 Alex Bendall Many times, yes. 0:16:13.740 --> 0:16:15.340 Puffer, Sheila I'm alright. 0:16:16.470 --> 0:16:23.30 Puffer, Sheila So this is-... we can put this in the feminism feminist experience category, OK? 0:16:24.290 --> 0:16:27.170 Puffer, Sheila OK. So just to continue on. 0:16:36.0 --> 0:16:44.200 Puffer, Sheila Men have really helped me out tremendously throughout my life. My husband was my biggest supporter. 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.760 Puffer, Sheila And that professor who encouraged me to take a hard language, that was great too. 0:16:51.620 --> 0:16:52.340 Puffer, Sheila Additionally. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:17:6.560 Puffer, Sheila After I graduated, I started my MBA part time. I was working full time for the National Capital Commission and I'd take my MBA classes and at the same time I was a research assistant to two professors. 0:17:9.840 --> 0:17:10.40 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:17:10.80 --> 0:17:17.600 Puffer, Sheila I'll give you their names. They're both in the Business School and they both retired. One was Jacques Jabez. 0:17:19.220 --> 0:17:38.300 Puffer, Sheila And the other professor was Michel Nedzella. So they were friends and they were young professors. 0:17:39.780 --> 0:17:43.140 Puffer, Sheila I worked for them as their research assistant. One Saturday morning, they had me come to the university. They sat me down and they said…. 0:17:52.770 --> 0:18:10.810 Puffer, Sheila Oh, I'll back up a little bit. Professor Jabes. When I was no more than 22 years old, he called me to come to his office. I was his research assistant at that time and I was working full time. 0:18:12.370 --> 0:18:20.130 Puffer, Sheila I had been taking my MBA courses. 0:18:21.850 --> 0:18:21.970 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:18:22.290 --> 0:18:24.450 Puffer, Sheila So I came over and saw him and he said, “We would like you to teach a course in organizational psychology to the undergraduates.” 0:18:32.460 --> 0:18:34.380 Puffer, Sheila “Really! I've never taught before.” 0:18:35.820 --> 0:18:37.540 Puffer, Sheila “Oh, we know you can do it.” 0:18:38.100 --> 0:18:39.660 Puffer, Sheila “And by the way, it's in French.” 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:41.920 Puffer, Sheila “What?” 0:18:44.80 --> 0:18:45.560 Puffer, Sheila “And it starts next week.” 0:18:47.870 --> 0:18:48.950 Puffer, Sheila I just about fell on the floor. 0:18:51.550 --> 0:18:54.550 Puffer, Sheila Oh my God. So anyway, I did it. 0:18:55.990 --> 0:19:1.870 Puffer, Sheila I managed to do it and the students were wonderful. I was, you know, a couple of years older than the students. 0:19:3.350 --> 0:19:19.350 Puffer, Sheila And we made it through. All right. So after all of that, as I said, I was in the MBA programme part time and then that Saturday morning, Professor Jabes and Professor Professor Nedzela called me in. They said, “You know, we've been thinking.” 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.90 Puffer, Sheila “We think you should get a PhD in business.” 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:46.560 Puffer, Sheila I said, “What's that? I've never heard of that before.” I was the first person in my family to go to university. My parents grew up on farms and my dad didn't even finish high school. So…. What! Anyway, I ended up going to the top university for my programme. 0:19:53.550 --> 0:19:58.670 Puffer, Sheila Which was the University of California, Berkeley, and it was all because of those two men. 0:20:0.310 --> 0:20:2.750 Puffer, Sheila They said that would be perfect for me to do. 0:20:4.420 --> 0:20:6.180 Puffer, Sheila So when you talk about feminism, somehow these various men along the way at the University of Ottawa, including my husband and those professors, saw my potential, they saw my talent, they saw my goal orientation. 0:20:33.390 --> 0:20:33.590 Alex Bendall Wow. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:51.480 Puffer, Sheila And they facilitated my education and my career path. And you know what I do today? I'm a professor of international business and sustainability at Northeastern University in Boston, and it's thanks to them. 0:20:54.190 --> 0:20:59.950 Puffer, Sheila So that's one aspect of feminism. I was a great beneficiary of that era. 0:21:2.290 --> 0:21:13.970 Puffer, Sheila And secondly, I remember it was 1972, I believe that was designated as the Year of the Woman. 0:21:15.690 --> 0:21:19.10 Puffer, Sheila In Canada, or maybe the United Nations, or something. 0:21:20.690 --> 0:21:25.10 Puffer, Sheila So we had somebody come you've never heard of. Whose name is Betty Friedan. 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:33.920 Puffer, Sheila And she had written a book called The Feminine Mystique. She was an American from New York, I believe. 0:21:36.450 --> 0:21:47.90 Puffer, Sheila There were many activities through that Year of the Woman at the university. One of those, one of the most prominent ones, was when Betty Friedan came to campus. 0:21:48.450 --> 0:21:49.570 Puffer, Sheila And it was a sensation. 0:21:51.10 --> 0:22:1.570 Puffer, Sheila She was so famous with that book and my mom had read that book when it first came out in the 1960s, quite a lot before that. 0:22:3.90 --> 0:22:7.370 Puffer, Sheila So guess what? I invited my mom to come. 0:22:8.670 --> 0:22:18.750 Puffer, Sheila And so she took the bus from Montreal, where my family was living, and she stayed with me. And we went to Betty Friedan together. 0:22:20.690 --> 0:22:21.170 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.80 Puffer, Sheila And that means so much to me, yeah. 0:22:24.980 --> 0:22:25.180 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:22:24.630 --> 0:22:28.710 Puffer, Sheila The fact that I remember seeing that book on my mom's night table. 0:22:31.290 --> 0:22:31.450 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:22:30.540 --> 0:22:36.100 Puffer, Sheila And she read that when it came out, yeah. OK. So I think we've covered feminism. 0:22:37.940 --> 0:22:39.820 Puffer, Sheila OK, what else have you got for me? 0:22:39.710 --> 0:22:40.70 Alex Bendall Alright. 0:22:44.300 --> 0:22:44.340 Alex Bendall N. 0:22:50.660 --> 0:22:51.260 Alex Bendall So. 0:22:52.820 --> 0:23:1.940 Alex Bendall This is more of a bigger deal in the United States, but the Vietnam War was going on then. What did the student body in Ottawa think about that? 0:23:8.990 --> 0:23:13.30 Alex Bendall What was the general perception from Canadian students of the Vietnam War? 0:23:18.420 --> 0:23:28.820 Puffer, Sheila You know, I actually went to two universities before I went to the University of Ottawa. I started out at Saint Mary's University in Halifax in 1969. 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:38.440 Puffer, Sheila And it was a male university with only 2000 students. It was the first year that they accepted women, and there were 200 women. 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:40.400 Alex Bendall All. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:41.480 Puffer, Sheila Among those men were draft dodgers from the USA. I remember them. 0:23:48.420 --> 0:23:48.500 Alex Bendall Oh. 0:23:49.390 --> 0:23:49.590 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:53.370 Puffer, Sheila And so that was my introduction to. 0:23:54.690 --> 0:24:2.10 Puffer, Sheila I was face to face with the Vietnam War there in 1969-70 in Halifax, right. 0:24:3.520 --> 0:24:7.800 Puffer, Sheila No draft dodgers came to Laurentian University in Sudbury that I had discovered. 0:24:9.240 --> 0:24:12.760 Puffer, Sheila And I don't recall meeting any at the University of Ottawa either. 0:24:14.940 --> 0:24:25.620 Puffer, Sheila And you know, I wasn't particularly political. I was so deeply into international things, languages and different cultures. 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:26.640 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:24:26.940 --> 0:24:28.20 Puffer, Sheila I just remember. 0:24:29.740 --> 0:24:44.300 Puffer, Sheila Every week in Time magazine there were just horrendous photos of the Vietnam War. It seemed every week it was a horrible thing. But no, I wasn't out protesting. I wasn't part of any groups involved in that, and I have no recollection of that at the University of Ottawa. 0:24:58.250 --> 0:24:58.650 Puffer, Sheila No, I don't. 0:24:54.210 --> 0:25:0.10 Alex Bendall Like no recollection of any protests at all at UOttawa. Oh OK, interesting. 0:24:59.790 --> 0:25:1.270 Puffer, Sheila There were, but they were not part of my memory bank. Yeah, 'cause I didn't participate. Oh, yeah. 0:25:10.930 --> 0:25:11.450 Alex Bendall All right. 0:25:18.670 --> 0:25:18.830 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:25:21.50 --> 0:25:21.810 Alex Bendall OK so. 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:32.280 Alex Bendall My next question is that some youth culture voice from the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:39.360 Alex Bendall Again, you don't have to answer any question if you don't want to, but to what extent? Recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 0:25:40.850 --> 0:25:42.210 Puffer, Sheila Oh, I have no idea. 0:25:45.270 --> 0:25:45.950 Alex Bendall All right. 0:25:44.490 --> 0:25:46.290 Puffer, Sheila Wasn't into it, no. 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:49.160 Alex Bendall All right, moving on. 0:25:48.270 --> 0:25:51.190 Puffer, Sheila I wouldn't know. I wouldn't. I didn't know many students who took drugs or smoked weed or anything. I barely knew what it smelled like, you know, marijuana. No. 0:26:4.690 --> 0:26:6.570 Puffer, Sheila I was having way too much fun without that. 0:26:9.450 --> 0:26:9.610 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:26:10.690 --> 0:26:11.50 Alex Bendall All right. 0:26:16.100 --> 0:26:18.980 Alex Bendall I still have a few more, like feminism questions. 0:26:25.330 --> 0:26:25.610 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:26:21.270 --> 0:26:26.390 Puffer, Sheila Do you ask these of oh, you only have if you're only interviewing me. But men would be asked these questions too. 0:26:27.570 --> 0:26:27.890 Puffer, Sheila Right. 0:26:29.700 --> 0:26:31.900 Puffer, Sheila I wish my husband was here for you to ask. 0:26:28.250 --> 0:26:36.490 Alex Bendall Yeah. Yeah, they would, yeah, they would. It's like a preset set of questions for everybody in my class. Yeah. All right. 0:26:38.270 --> 0:26:56.190 Alex Bendall So in your own words, I mean, you already kind of gave me your view on how feminism helped you. But like what in more broader terms, the like feminism overall in Canada, in your own words, how, like, what did it signify in Canada in the early 1970s? 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:4.200 Puffer, Sheila Well, I was working and going to the university at the same time and there was a federal government report, and it was called the Commission on the status of the women, something like that. 0:27:20.100 --> 0:27:21.940 Puffer, Sheila And so I was aware of that. 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:34.240 Puffer, Sheila It was a good thing because I thought it was a good thing because it was addressing issues. 0:27:36.0 --> 0:27:45.80 Puffer, Sheila That government Commission report was addressing issues about the role of women in society and how inequalities in the workforce and access to education and childcare and so on could be addressed. 0:28:0.830 --> 0:28:0.990 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:28:4.560 --> 0:28:10.240 Puffer, Sheila I read the report, I don't think very many people or many students did, but I did. 0:28:12.270 --> 0:28:16.990 Puffer, Sheila I mean, look at where I've ended up in life, you know, I'm an academic. 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:18.160 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:28:18.540 --> 0:28:21.60 Puffer, Sheila I read stuff. I read, you know, boring stuff. 0:28:25.100 --> 0:28:25.420 Alex Bendall OK. 0:28:28.770 --> 0:28:33.810 Alex Bendall So, since gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:28:36.230 --> 0:28:43.270 Alex Bendall Did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or social events compared to male students? 0:28:47.690 --> 0:28:47.770 Puffer, Sheila Yup. 0:28:59.470 --> 0:29:13.310 Puffer, Sheila Where I worked in the federal government, there was a lot of sexism and there was, you know, exploitation of women. I have a cute story, though, just in that we had an absolutely fantastic professor of Russian. 0:29:14.710 --> 0:29:15.70 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:29:17.150 --> 0:29:29.270 Puffer, Sheila You know, the custom in Russia, Ukraine, European countries in general is to call people by their last name. 0:29:30.460 --> 0:29:33.980 Puffer, Sheila So one night in Russian class, he didn't hear me put the feminine ending on a verb. 0:29:51.890 --> 0:29:52.50 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:29:43.790 --> 0:29:56.750 Puffer, Sheila I guess I had said it just kind of so he didn't hear it. It was not loud enough. And so he just shouted to me, “Skirt, Puffer, skirt!” 0:30:6.140 --> 0:30:6.420 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:30:1.710 --> 0:30:8.670 Puffer, Sheila He wanted me to put that feminine ending on because I was speaking, and so I needed to add a feminine ending to the verb. 0:30:9.850 --> 0:30:12.370 Puffer, Sheila It was the cutest thing. We all laughed. 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:23.40 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:30:16.0 --> 0:30:31.400 Puffer, Sheila Oh, you know, I don't go looking for discrimination. I don't. I just carry on and do what I want to try to accomplish, what I want to accomplish. And as you can see. 0:30:33.570 --> 0:30:37.170 Puffer, Sheila I think it's just my own demeanor. 0:30:39.300 --> 0:30:50.740 Puffer, Sheila There were actually mostly men in my MBA graduate classes. Sometimes I was the only woman in the class and I was the only English speaking person in the class. 0:30:55.510 --> 0:30:59.430 Puffer, Sheila Because you could take your courses in English or French. 0:31:15.910 --> 0:31:16.70 Alex Bendall Sure. 0:31:1.190 --> 0:31:24.350 Puffer, Sheila Most of them. And so I challenged myself to take half of them in French. And these really nice young French speaking male students and the male professor said, “Well, why are you doing this in French? Why don't you just take the English section?” I said, “Because I'm gonna learn French and I want to learn the terminology in French and I want the challenge of that.” So people could recognize that I was, I was a little different. 0:31:25.580 --> 0:31:25.820 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:31:30.910 --> 0:31:32.350 Puffer, Sheila Whereas in the workplace, in the early 70s, I worked for the Director of Personnel. 0:31:39.30 --> 0:31:40.70 Puffer, Sheila I won't say where. 0:31:42.710 --> 0:31:44.510 Puffer, Sheila And he introduced me to a male visitor to the office. 0:31:46.350 --> 0:31:48.350 Puffer, Sheila I know this is hard for you to imagine, but think of. 0:31:49.540 --> 0:32:0.900 Puffer, Sheila You know, me at your age and not the age I am now. And it was at the age of very short skirts and, you know, miniskirts and all that. 0:32:2.220 --> 0:32:13.140 Puffer, Sheila Which was kind of weird. Well, in a sense. Oh, and then it was the burning of the bras. I remember that, too, was at that time I was there. Yeah. So a lot of bras were eliminated. And, you know, there weren't any such things as sports bras, which, you know, are a lot more comfortable. So anyway, this boss, somebody came in new to the office, a visitor. 0:32:29.610 --> 0:32:31.330 Puffer, Sheila So, back to my boss. 0:32:32.810 --> 0:32:35.610 Puffer, Sheila I was his assistant. I was not his secretary. I was at an administrative level. You know, that first rung in the hierarchy, and he introduced me to another man there. And he said, “Oh, and this is Sheila,” and gave my title. And then he said, “She's cute – and clever too.” 0:32:57.860 --> 0:33:18.140 Puffer, Sheila I went home and I told my husband, 'cause I got married very young, and told him, “Can you imagine! This is what he said.” And we laughed about that for years. And my husband would say to me just for fun sometimes, you know, like 40 years old, he's like, “You know what? You're cute – and clever too.” 0:33:21.810 --> 0:33:22.450 Alex Bendall That's awesome. 0:33:26.690 --> 0:33:27.130 Alex Bendall Alright. 0:33:28.890 --> 0:33:35.330 Alex Bendall What kind of programmes or departments or clubs where women are less accepted? 0:33:36.670 --> 0:33:37.470 Alex Bendall From your experience. 0:33:38.290 --> 0:33:41.10 Puffer, Sheila I don't know. I don't really. I didn't really join any clubs. 0:33:41.910 --> 0:33:42.230 Alex Bendall Oh, OK. 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:48.400 Puffer, Sheila I just ran them. You know, I ran the Slavianski Bazaar club with my husband. 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:50.960 Puffer, Sheila And the professor. 0:33:54.40 --> 0:33:55.0 Puffer, Sheila That was pretty equal. 0:33:56.420 --> 0:34:1.420 Alex Bendall Did you get a lot of people in that club over the course of how long you? However long you ran it? 0:34:1.900 --> 0:34:3.420 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we had it for a few years. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:6.390 Puffer, Sheila We had a couple dozen. 0:34:7.280 --> 0:34:27.520 Puffer, Sheila And again, you know, my husband was like me, only he had the advantage of being male. But he was so interested in different languages and cultures. That's obviously why we, you know, a big a big reason why we connected anyway. 0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:30.320 Puffer, Sheila He and I. 0:34:33.220 --> 0:34:36.180 Puffer, Sheila Well, let me see. I think there were two other non-Slavic people in the club. 0:34:41.650 --> 0:34:52.410 Puffer, Sheila And so the people who took Slavic Studies courses, who took Russian, some of these people had emigrated from the Czech Republic. They had because in 1969, I think it was, there was the Velvet Revolution in the Czech Republic in what was it called then. And. And so people emigrated. And they wanted an easy credit. 0:35:7.860 --> 0:35:11.500 Puffer, Sheila It was an easy course for them. We called them bird courses. What do you call them now? 0:35:13.370 --> 0:35:14.570 Alex Bendall Fluffy courses. 0:35:16.100 --> 0:35:16.260 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:35:21.80 --> 0:35:21.480 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:35:14.820 --> 0:35:21.500 Puffer, Sheila OK. And so they wanted those and they were forced to learn Russian growing up in the Czech Republic. 0:35:22.980 --> 0:35:23.620 Puffer, Sheila And so. 0:35:25.420 --> 0:35:51.540 Puffer, Sheila You know, they didn't speak very good Russian 'cause Czech and Russian have a lot in common, but they have a lot of things where you can really mess up if you're just lazy and don't seriously speak the language. So the point was, oh, I don't know. I shouldn't say that. Maybe there were about four or five English speaking people and a couple of French speaking people. 0:35:52.20 --> 0:36:8.180 Puffer, Sheila I remember them now. Francoise Nadeau, Denis Genereux, Brenda Cuillard. Yep. And that's right. And then we had Bernard Julian, who was from Britain, and we had Rick Pinchuk and he was a Ukrainian refugee. 0:36:9.500 --> 0:36:12.580 Puffer, Sheila So that club was mostly populated by non-native born Canadians. 0:36:21.270 --> 0:36:23.70 Puffer, Sheila And we liked that, my husband and I. 0:36:26.50 --> 0:36:26.210 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:36:29.240 --> 0:36:36.520 Alex Bendall All right. So my next section is the section about generational differences and. 0:36:39.90 --> 0:36:47.210 Alex Bendall So to what extent did your generation believe that your parents’ notions like gender, family dating, et cetera were outdated? 0:37:3.970 --> 0:37:4.210 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:37:1.0 --> 0:37:4.920 Puffer, Sheila That's the same values as our parents. 0:37:7.500 --> 0:37:13.940 Alex Bendall Like you, you specifically or just. Did you feel like that was the case for your whole generation? 0:37:16.150 --> 0:37:23.270 Puffer, Sheila To what extent did we accept or challenge our parents? 0:37:24.690 --> 0:37:29.250 Puffer, Sheila Views on dating and gender differences like. 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:36.560 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. Don't know. Nothing really. 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:42.920 Puffer, Sheila And my husband and I had again sought out unusual people. 0:37:44.240 --> 0:37:47.400 Puffer, Sheila On the campus? Yeah, you're getting the idea. 0:37:49.40 --> 0:37:50.80 Puffer, Sheila There, you know, we found. 0:37:52.100 --> 0:37:53.180 Puffer, Sheila My husband and I were so. 0:37:55.810 --> 0:37:57.530 Puffer, Sheila We were so happy together. 0:37:59.40 --> 0:38:3.360 Puffer, Sheila And we were so curious about people who are a little different. 0:38:4.790 --> 0:38:8.430 Puffer, Sheila That we became friends with single people. 0:38:9.710 --> 0:38:11.150 Puffer, Sheila And we would take them. 0:38:12.470 --> 0:38:28.990 Puffer, Sheila You know on drives and, you know, we just had them hang out with us or whatever. And we had some male ones and we had some female ones. We had some couples. But I remember my husband saying, “You know, I think X is probably gay.” 0:38:30.190 --> 0:38:35.550 Puffer, Sheila “And you know, and this other one is likely …” 0:38:37.70 --> 0:38:38.110 Puffer, Sheila “To be, you know …” 0:38:39.950 --> 0:38:40.390 Puffer, Sheila “Lesbian.” 0:38:42.370 --> 0:38:48.170 Puffer, Sheila But we never asked them. We never did. We just were friends with them. 0:38:49.930 --> 0:38:54.90 Puffer, Sheila But they didn't. They weren't people who had boyfriends, girlfriends, or anything. 0:38:55.890 --> 0:38:59.610 Puffer, Sheila But we just found them really interesting and they became our friends. 0:39:0.360 --> 0:39:1.120 Alex Bendall Make sense? Yeah. 0:39:3.480 --> 0:39:6.200 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about that stuff. 0:39:9.30 --> 0:39:9.390 Alex Bendall OK. 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:13.840 Alex Bendall As a follow up, did you feel? 0:39:15.490 --> 0:39:28.170 Alex Bendall That the political system in Canada was like democratic, fair enough, responsive to the citizens’ needs or to like your generation's needs, do you think? 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:30.120 Alex Bendall Yeah. OK. 0:39:30.980 --> 0:39:32.420 Puffer, Sheila Very, very liberal. 0:39:45.250 --> 0:39:45.570 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:53.120 Puffer, Sheila Pierre Trudeau was the Prime Minister and he put in the whole bilingualism programme. I thought it was exceptional. Yeah. And I thought he really transformed society. 0:39:54.170 --> 0:39:55.970 Alex Bendall Yes, definitely. 0:39:56.510 --> 0:40:3.510 Puffer, Sheila Not just bilingualism, but as I said, the Commission on the Status, oh, that's what it was called, the Commission on the status of women. 0:40:5.750 --> 0:40:8.350 Puffer, Sheila I pulled that out from 50 years ago. 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:10.400 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:40:15.365 --> 0:40:20.445 Puffer, Sheila I loved living in Ottawa. I just loved it. It was bilingual. You had all these international restaurants, because diplomats were there from different parts of the world. So my husband and I would go to African restaurants, we’d go to, you know, Greek restaurants. When Greek food wasn't that widespread. You get the idea. It was a really wonderful place to be interested in international things. 0:40:44.485 --> 0:41:0.845 Alex Bendall Yeah. I guess with you being so interested in other cultures from around the world, it makes sense that you would like Pierre Trudeau so much, him being such a big part in, like creating Canada into a multicultural society, right? 0:41:1.315 --> 0:41:1.755 Puffer, Sheila Yes. 0:41:2.365 --> 0:41:2.605 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:41:3.295 --> 0:41:4.255 Puffer, Sheila And actually. 0:41:6.235 --> 0:41:8.75 Puffer, Sheila While I was going to the university. 0:41:9.895 --> 0:41:18.575 Puffer, Sheila One of the early jobs that I had after I was the administrative assistant to that Director of Personnel, then I became a Bilingualism Officer. 0:41:21.155 --> 0:41:29.995 Puffer, Sheila At the National Capital Commission. It was just awesome because I tested people for their level of bilingualism. I gave them oral and written tests. 0:41:31.445 --> 0:41:32.925 Puffer, Sheila And I have the cutest story. 0:41:34.485 --> 0:41:38.125 Puffer, Sheila Again, I know, I was 20 years old. What do you know when you're 20? 0:41:40.725 --> 0:41:45.205 Puffer, Sheila So I went to Gatineau Park. 0:41:46.675 --> 0:42:7.235 Puffer, Sheila You know the people who took care of the grounds, and there were a lot. They mowed the lawns and so on and so forth. But they needed to be bilingual when tourists would come by or, you know, visitors to the park would come by. And they were all French speaking. And I was testing them and they had very little education. 0:42:8.395 --> 0:42:15.595 Puffer, Sheila You know, they might have had a 6th or 8th grade education. They were the nicest people and they had worked there for years and years. 0:42:17.195 --> 0:42:28.315 Puffer, Sheila I tested so I had my tape recorder. A big, big tape recorder like this. These are men, you know, in their 50s. 0:42:29.715 --> 0:42:30.995 Puffer, Sheila And here I am, 20. 0:42:33.75 --> 0:42:41.555 Puffer, Sheila They're all wearing their park uniforms and everything. They're all very clean and well groomed. I start with a written test. And one of the gentlemen looked kind of like a deer in the headlights. 0:42:42.245 --> 0:42:52.525 Puffer, Sheila He said, “Excusez-moi, mademoiselle, mais j’ai oublie mes lunettes.” [I’m sorry, miss, but I forgot my glasses.] 0:43:8.75 --> 0:43:13.755 Puffer, Sheila And then another person said, “Moi aussi.” [Me too.] 0:43:16.385 --> 0:43:16.545 Alex Bendall OK. 0:43:16.875 --> 0:43:20.395 Puffer, Sheila And it took me a moment until I realized they meant they couldn’t take the written test in English. So I said, “OK, we're not doing that test.” 0:43:29.605 --> 0:43:29.925 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:43:23.915 --> 0:43:31.275 Puffer, Sheila They didn't need to really write in English anyway. It was just communicating verbally with the park visitors. 0:43:32.195 --> 0:43:40.595 Puffer, Sheila So I mean, I had the most wonderful time with the bilingualism programme that Prime Minister Trudeau implemented. I met the most wonderful people. 0:43:42.45 --> 0:43:42.565 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:43:44.315 --> 0:43:45.595 Puffer, Sheila And I have great respect for them. 0:43:51.185 --> 0:43:53.505 Alex Bendall All right. Well, I have one final. 0:43:55.425 --> 0:44:13.905 Alex Bendall Section here before we end this interview, and so cultural historians have argued that the introduction of birth control, pill legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? 0:44:16.945 --> 0:44:19.945 Puffer, Sheila You broke up a little bit there, Alex. Please repeat the question. 0:44:21.735 --> 0:44:37.375 Alex Bendall Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:44:38.675 --> 0:44:44.675 Alex Bendall It's like, do you agree with that statement and what did the dating scene look like at UOttawa during the 1970s? 0:44:46.75 --> 0:44:47.835 Puffer, Sheila Yes, it changed dating practices. 0:44:49.215 --> 0:44:52.175 Puffer, Sheila I think women felt a lot, a lot more in control. 0:44:53.385 --> 0:44:53.705 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:44:53.445 --> 0:44:56.885 Puffer, Sheila And there was more sexual freedom as a result of that. 0:44:58.615 --> 0:45:4.135 Puffer, Sheila And then, of course, I met my husband as soon as I came on campus. 0:45:6.175 --> 0:45:6.255 Puffer, Sheila Uh. 0:45:28.425 --> 0:45:28.665 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:45:7.115 --> 0:45:34.75 Puffer, Sheila Ah, well, I started in, you know, September and I met him on January 5th, 1972. So I only had one semester of just going on dates. Right. And then I met my husband and that was it. So yeah, I'm not a good representative of dating for, you know, for my four years of college. 0:45:35.435 --> 0:45:36.315 Puffer, Sheila Dating other people. 0:45:37.315 --> 0:45:38.235 Alex Bendall That makes sense, yeah. 0:45:41.595 --> 0:45:43.835 Alex Bendall All right, well. 0:45:43.875 --> 0:45:47.635 Alex Bendall That's really all I have for the questions that I have written down here. 0:45:48.975 --> 0:45:51.375 Alex Bendall Is there anything else you'd like to talk about or say? 0:45:51.625 --> 0:45:56.825 Puffer, Sheila Oh, that's so nice of you. No, but I'll just tell you one very, very nice thing. 0:45:58.305 --> 0:46:13.945 Puffer, Sheila Not as nice as some of the other things I've told you, but I've lived in Boston here for a long time. I've lived in the United States since I got. Well, I came here for my PhD. Thanks to those two professors. All right, Jacques and Michel, and my husband. 0:46:16.345 --> 0:46:21.865 Puffer, Sheila And so living in Boston, I played in a rock band. 0:46:24.895 --> 0:46:25.455 Alex Bendall Really. 0:46:22.725 --> 0:46:27.685 Puffer, Sheila For fun for 20 years and yeah, just every Friday night we'd play. 0:46:35.935 --> 0:46:36.95 Alex Bendall OK. 0:46:29.485 --> 0:46:37.605 Puffer, Sheila And you know, we had young kids, all of us. We were in our 40s when we started. So it's a long time ago, right. 0:46:39.805 --> 0:46:53.645 Puffer, Sheila So anyway, one night there was a new man who was a neighbor of the drummer and his wife, who was a singer. So this man kept showing up and he played a really nice bass guitar. 0:47:0.85 --> 0:47:24.485 Puffer, Sheila And then after a couple of weeks, I learned that he was from Ottawa. Oh, really? OK. Turns out he and his wife went to Ottawa U at exactly the same time as undergraduates as my husband and myself. But we were up on Laurier Ave in the arts and business school, and they were in biology down the hill. We never met them while we were at Ottawa and then fast forward 25 years or something, and we met them in Boston, playing in a rock band together. 0:47:38.485 --> 0:47:39.285 Alex Bendall That's crazy. 0:47:56.165 --> 0:47:56.285 Alex Bendall Hi. 0:47:41.835 --> 0:47:56.435 Puffer, Sheila And the rock band kind of dissolved during COVID. But we kept it together for 20 years, and I'm still friends with them. And they moved back to Ottawa a number of years ago. 0:47:57.415 --> 0:47:57.735 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:47:57.745 --> 0:47:58.945 Alex Bendall What was your rock band called? 0:48:0.195 --> 0:48:1.315 Puffer, Sheila Off the Record. 0:48:2.385 --> 0:48:3.185 Alex Bendall Off the Record. 0:48:3.465 --> 0:48:12.225 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we played all these rock tunes which we knew as originals when we were growing up. 0:48:13.365 --> 0:48:14.445 Puffer, Sheila When we were teenagers, yeah. 0:48:15.305 --> 0:48:15.585 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:48:15.985 --> 0:48:17.905 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we played the Eagles and we played… 0:48:19.605 --> 0:48:23.805 Puffer, Sheila Oh, we, of course. The Eagles and Rolling Stones and yeah. 0:48:25.85 --> 0:48:28.245 Alex Bendall That's my favorite genre of music right there. That's what I listen to all the time. 0:48:28.845 --> 0:48:33.725 Puffer, Sheila Really. Oh yeah, we loved it, but we, you know, we were the screaming fans back in the day. 0:48:37.275 --> 0:48:42.915 Puffer, Sheila OK, really fun. I will. I would love to have the recording please. 0:48:43.885 --> 0:48:46.85 Alex Bendall Absolutely no problem. 0:48:45.175 --> 0:48:47.935 Puffer, Sheila OK so I am going to a comedy show now. 0:48:49.745 --> 0:48:50.625 Alex Bendall Which comedy show? 0:48:51.115 --> 0:49:5.995 Puffer, Sheila Well, it's an improv show, and I took an 8 week improv class this summer here in Boston, which was a blast. Really, really fun. So I'm gonna go and see the professionals do it. 0:49:7.65 --> 0:49:7.545 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:49:7.955 --> 0:49:8.115 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:49:8.695 --> 0:49:9.455 Alex Bendall Well, have fun. 0:49:9.745 --> 0:49:16.625 Puffer, Sheila Thanks a lot. Alex, this is fun and yeah, I'll enjoy receiving the recording and the transcript and. 0:49:26.325 --> 0:49:26.765 Alex Bendall All right. 0:49:18.145 --> 0:49:34.385 Puffer, Sheila I will sign that form, but don't worry. It's perfectly fine. You can see I enjoyed myself and I had. I had really wonderful memories. Yeah. Oh, what I didn't tell you my husband's name, for heaven's sake. Because he graduated there. He got a master's in Slavic Studies and a PhD in Slavic Studies. 0:49:36.225 --> 0:49:40.545 Puffer, Sheila And his name is Hugh Fraser. Fraser. 0:49:43.985 --> 0:49:45.585 Alex Bendall Alright, thank you. 0:49:44.965 --> 0:49:52.365 Puffer, Sheila There you go. I needed to get that in there. 'cause he's not around to be interviewed for the 70s, but he was there, I can guarantee. 0:49:53.165 --> 0:49:53.565 Alex Bendall All right. 0:49:55.55 --> 0:49:57.55 Alex Bendall Well, thank you very much. You too. 0:49:54.695 --> 0:49:58.975 Puffer, Sheila Take care. Alright. Have fun. Right. Bye bye. 0:49:59.995 --> 0:50:0.235 Alex Bendall Bye. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Puffer, Sheila (interview) Description An account of the resource Account of the subjects experiences on campus of the University of Ottawa in the 1970's. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-22 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Canadian History Gender Leisure Second-Wave Feminism Student Clubs Student Life University of Ottawa Person An individual. Birth Date 1951 Birthplace Cheshire, England Schools Attended Oxford University Harvard University Degree BA MA Occupation Quantitative Economics Ethnicity English French Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life atheist Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B., M. (pseudonym) Person An individual. Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Bourget, Ontario, Canada. Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1967-1969 University of Ottawa, ? - 1973 University of Ottawa, ? - 1980 University of Ottawa, ? -1993 Degree BA BA MA Career education Religious Culture Catholic Christian Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hurtubise, Madeleine. Language A language of the resource French Description An account of the resource An interview regarding pop culture and the female experience on the UOttawa campus in the 1970s. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-17 Relation A related resource https://youtu.be/ipSeR6DD0tc 6 minutes, 45 seconds to 1 hour, 2 minutes, 35 seconds Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 10 minutes, 32 seconds Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wang, Jonathan S. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. L (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview British Columbia, via phone call Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jonathan: Uh, hello? (00:00:19) L.M.: Hello? Jonathan: Hello, uh, L. Is this L.? L.M.: Yes. Can you hear me? Jonathan: Yeah, I can hear you. L.M.: OK. Well, that's good. Jonathan: OK. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this again. I, I can't believe. The last time didn't record anything. Uh. L.M.: Yeah, that's too bad. However, we'll try again. Jonathan: Yeah, we'll try again. Thank. Thank you so much for this, L.M.: You're welcome. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. Today is October 24th. And let us begin the interview. I'm gonna, I'm just going to go through all the questions in order this time. OK. So the first question about the popular culture of the time: “there were less electronics in Canadian society in the 1970s. How did you spend your leisure time”, or what did you do for fun? L.M.: I used to go swimming at the pool of University of Ottawa. I used to go skating on the canal. I used to go to the National Art Centre and the National Gallery and I used to have, go to restaurants or pubs with friends. (1:19) Jonathan: OK and, uh, were these restaurants, pubs the most popular hangout spots? L.M.: Uh, no. I used to go to a good Indian restaurant with my boyfriend that was on Nam. That was near the university and there was a creperie down on Rideau St. and there was Nate’s Delicatessen. Yeah, it was good. But yeah, I guess they were popular enough. I don't know. (01:52) Jonathan: But did you know any like, super popular places? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? OK then. Hmm. Well, yeah, that's that, I guess. Anyhow, you listen to- L.M.: That's right, I'm. I'm not really. I don't really fit the mold for wherever this this project is trying to go, I think anyway. Jonathan: Yeah. The super average student, I guess. Well, you listen to a lot of music during the time, right? L.M.: Yeah, I listen to folk music primarily. Jonathan: Yeah, hello. Folk and classical, you said last time. L.M.: Yeah, folk and classical. But I listen to, you know, I'm listened to Joan Baez. That's she would have been. She was popular in the time because she certainly was a, an, a political activist. Jonathan: Oh, but- (3:03) L.M.: So there you go. Jonathan: With the music, did you attend any live, live music concerts? L.M.: Well, as I said, yeah, some, some classical at the arts centre. I went to a couple of shows in Montreal, I went down to Montreal and heard Gilles Vigneault and Michel Fugain. At the Art Centre in Montreal. Jonathan: Yeah, the Arts in Montreal. Damn. Honestly, I don't, I don't even know any of these names. L.M.: Well, that's not surprising. They're they're, they're francophone, for one thing, so they're probably not culture that you're familiar with, and they're from the 70s, so. Jonathan: Yeah, long time. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. So you want to hear me say things like, oh, yeah, I went to The Rolling Stones and the Grateful Dead and. Jonathan: Well, it would be a lot more convenient if you did. L.M.: You'd have boxes that you could tick off. (4:00) Jonathan: Yeah, and be a lot easier to write everything. Ohh. OK, so the next part “we use the term party culture to describe certain universities.” How would you describe the “party culture” in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: That well, I wasn't particularly aware of it. I don't know if it was if it was around there, there used to be dances at the the first year I was in residence and there were often dances in the in the residence beside mine that I sometimes went to. Jonathan: Umm, but it was just like, dancing. Nothing really else happened there. L.M.: Yeah, it's just dancing. No, was just dancing. They had, you know, recorded music and there was dancing. Jonathan: Oh. Did you go to them? L.M.: Did I go to, did I go dancing there? Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. What's it like? “Organized dancing”, or is it like, you know, you just shake around, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M.: Yeah, let's just kind of shake around dancing. That's right. Jonathan: OK. And uh, what did the student body or yourself think about the Vietnam War? L.M.: Well, I wasn't. I wasn't in favor of it, obviously. It was. It was certainly disturbing at the time. There was a whole lot of as, as with any war, there's a whole lot of people being killed unnecessarily. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. But. Do you think there's like a, the- L.M.: There wasn't. There wasn't much discussion of it at, you know, in, you know, certainly among students. Jonathan: But did you think like the general consensus that most people, weren't, didn't really like it. They were kind of against it? (5:53) L.M.: Yeah, I think most people probably were. I mean, and certainly Canada, you know we we ended up with a lot of draft Dodgers from the, from the war. I think I mentioned that before I was. Certainly, you know, aware of that that there were young men coming up here because they didn't believe in the war. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm, did you personally see, meet any draft dodgers? L.M.: No, not that I can recall. Jonathan: All right. Next it's about rock'n'roll. I know you didn't listen to it a lot. But did you or maybe your parents think of, like, have any opinions about rock'n'roll? Do you see as like “devil music”? L.M.: No, I mean, I certainly it was totally, it was totally acceptable music for young people at the time, I didn't have anything against it. It just wasn't something I listened to a lot personally. Jonathan: OK. But and your. Did your parents have any opinions on it? (6:59) L.M.: No, I don't think so. Jonathan: Hmm, OK. Alright and- L.M.: I mean I- Jonathan: Yeah. L.M.: -Yeah. Jonathan: OK. L.M.: I mean the, I certainly, I certainly heard that. I mean I heard The Beatles, I heard the stones, I heard I. You know, if, if kids were having a party, that's the kind of that's the kind of music that we'd put on, it's actually. Jonathan: Ah. So it was still popular. L.M.: Certainly that now I'm going now. You know, I'm going back to UBC days. I think. I think maybe part of the difference at, with U of O is that I was a graduate student, you know, and I hung out with Med students and, and they were all pretty serious. You know, they had to get through Med school and so. Jonathan: Yeah, bachelor students are, yeah. A lot more relaxed. L.M.: Yeah. Well, exactly. I mean, they're younger and they're, you know, they're this is there for a lot of them. That's kind of their their, their chance to get away from home and so but. Jonathan: Have some fun, yeah. OK. And of course, 1970s. A lot of the, there was a lot of drugs being taken then. To what extent were drugs available or used on campus? (8:02) L.M.: I don't really know because I wasn't using them personally. You know, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were available. They're available everywhere, have been for years. Always have been, always will be. Jonathan: They are, that's true. But, hmm, did you maybe know a lot of drug users, like people who smoked marijuana? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? L.M.: I mean, yeah, well, that's, yeah. No, I certainly did. I certainly did know. Know some, I think, because I I knew a fellow who was, you know, who'd gone to high school in Ottawa. So he. Yeah, yeah, I know, he and his friends. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, it was definitely around. I was aware of. Of people who were using it. Jonathan: But do you also think it was common too? (9:04) L.M.: Oh yeah, sure, it was common. Jonathan: OK. And last thing about drugs. Uh, do you think a lot of students used hallucinogenics? Or psychedelic drugs too. L.M.: Yeah, I have no idea. I certainly I don't think. I don't think my friends were particular. I mean, the people I knew weren't into that, but. Again, I'm sure. They were out there. I know they were out there so. Jonathan: But it wasn't that common that you, you knew anyone who used it? L.M.: Yeah, it certainly wasn't terribly common among medical students. Jonathan: Oh yeah, would medical students know like a lot more about the drugs? L.M.: Oh, they probably knew somewhat more, but I don't. I not necessarily cause because I don't think any of them were. They probably knew enough not to use them. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. And that ends the first section about pop culture. Next is about the feminism, OK, so historians say they talk about the 2nd wave feminism as part of a, the general counterculture movement in the 1970s. It says that- (9:57) L.M.: How did that be second wave? When was the first wave? Did they talk about when the 1st? Jonathan: It was in. I think that was the early 1900s, when women like first got the right to vote. L.M.: Oh, OK. All right. So the, so second wave is what's going along in the 70s, OK? Jonathan: Yeah. So it says in the 1970s, woman worked to breakdown gender barriers and such. Does this? Well, does this description you know align with your experience in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: Oh yeah, sure. Jonathan: Yeah? Is there any like, specific thing that you can describe? L.M.: Well, I'm thinking that you know, I mean as I said, I ended up knowing a lot of medical students, my roommates were medical students. There were probably more women and well, and then and then I had one for a while one who was a law student too, so certainly there were more women. Entering the professions in that era than had been seen previously. (10:53) Jonathan: Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. OK. L.M.: There were more. There were more women in university and there were more women. There were definitely more women in the in the professions, particularly law, and medicine. I, I certainly saw more. Yeah, there were a lot more women going into those fields. I think it took a while for them to go, you know. And now you're seeing more in engineering too, that, that that was that that was longer, that took longer coming. But as I say in my in my era. There were, I think it was really the the beginning of, you know, seeing a lot of women in medicine and law. Jonathan: OK, so medicine and law you said we're like for you was the big, like a lot of woman took it up. I don't really describe that. Yeah. OK, uh, what did feminism like? Mean to you back then? Or maybe you'd- (11:55) L.M.: Yeah, as I think I- Jonathan: Yeah, I think you answered this before. L.M.: That yeah, I mean, because my own mother was a university professor like she was like way ahead of the curve. Right. So for me, having a, but I I certainly know as a child, I was the only, you know, I was the only woman. Er the only woman, the only person in my elementary school whose mother was. Was working I think, and you know, and that was probably pretty much the same through, through high school, although things might have started to change by then there were maybe some women, you know, working because their kids were in school. But but it was certainly less common, but to me. That was, you know, I, I always expected that I'd go to university and that I'd work because that was, you know, with having my mother as a role model that's just what I figured I'd do. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. So I guess would you call your, your mother, a feminist role model? (13:16) L.M.: She certainly wouldn't call herself that. You know, as many as the first. The women who were successful professionally tended to poo-poo the feminist movement because, you know, they'd made their own way. So they really couldn't understand what anybody else's problem was. But that said, I mean I don't agree with my mother on that. I, I think there and we're still seeing issues, you know, in terms of how women are treated in the workplace, I was very fortunate. I, you know, I didn't encounter any issues myself. Well, yeah, there there's, there's certainly, I, I would say there's some certainly some aspects of the old boys network and and you know men looking after themselves and it was harder for women to make their way, generally I think. Jonathan: Hmm, that's interesting. But you're saying your mother, you know, didn't really like the feminism movement? (14:18) L.M.: No, because she didn't. For, for her it was a non-issue, you know. You just get out there and you do it, you do what you want to do and that's that. And she, I mean. And she worked obviously in that era she was working in a very male environment but she was successful. So I think she, she wasn't overly sympathetic. She just. Jonathan: Yeah, that's. That is pretty interesting. I didn't really, you know I think. She's in the male dominated place, she should be, yeah, you know. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, I think it maybe it was that era that you just kind of accepted it, you know, I mean, you didn't really, I don't know. (15:01) Jonathan: Yeah, I guess that was true. You did just accept things. Is just how it is. L.M.: Yeah, yeah. Jonathan: OK. And then of course, you already said about the law and medical, but you know in U Ottawa the programs and departments were there places where women were like. Not accepted. You know, maybe like engineering. L.M.: Well, yeah, that's probably true- Jonathan: The big one? L.M.: -I think that I think, yeah, I don't think I knew any women in engineering so. Yeah, I think that's possible, but I wasn't really. I didn't. I wasn't really close to anybody in engineering review though either. So yeah, it's hard to say. Jonathan: But was there? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, maybe you knew any. Maybe you also knew any clubs or like, oh no, we don't like women in this club. L.M.: Yeah, I wasn't really. Jonathan: Into clubs? L.M.: I wasn't really into clubs, so yeah. (16:04) Jonathan: OK. And the next part, is about, uh, the general counterculture, which is basically all, you know, you don't really agree with the values your parents. You already said, uh, you know, you had a little bit of conflict with your mother over feminism? L.M.: Um, I, I. No, I wasn't conflicted with her. I, you know- Jonathan: But you just disagreed. L.M.: -I was inclined to agree with her. Pardon? Jonathan: Yeah. So you just disagreed? Never, no, really. Conflict. L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think at the time, I mean I, I would have, I would have disagreed later in life. I think at the time I just kind of accepted, um, you know, I thought she probably knew what she was talking about, and I didn't. I didn't expect to encounter any issues personally. And then I really never did so, but- Jonathan: So at the time you, you know, didn't really think about, you, you mostly agreed? (17:02) L.M.: Yeah, at that time, I didn't. Yeah, I at the time, I just assumed I was going to, you know, finish my degree and get a job and that that, that a Masters degree might might lead to an interesting job. And, and I always did have interesting jobs, whether the Masters degree contributed to I have no idea. Suddenly, the being bilingual did, being bilingual in Ottawa, was the big thing? Jonathan: Well, that's a big thing. Yeah, I'd like to think your Masters degree helps because I'm looking to get one after this. L.M.: Are you well good for you. What's your? What's your? Your field is history. Jonathan: Yeah, it's history. L.M.: Yeah, well, good for you. Jonathan: Well, thank you. L.M.: Yeah, no, I would encourage you to do that. Jonathan: I like to. I like to think that it was a big a big help. L.M.: Yeah, well, you know, I I do believe that that degrees in well in, in, the, the in history or you know English or social sciences that that that they're all I think they're all very useful because at the end of the day. (17:56) Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: At the end of the day, you need to be able to understand people. Whatever field you're in. So, and that's those studies help with that. Jonathan: Yeah, honestly, I just think a bachelor is one is one of those things that people don't like. So you have to have a masters, right? L.M.: Well, that's what. That's what I thought at the time too. And and you know, maybe I was right. As I say, I certainly, I certainly always ended up with interesting jobs. So. Jonathan: Ohh well I hope, I hope you are still right. L.M.: Yeah, for your sake, I hope I'm right too, I'm sure. Well, I'm sure if you're if you're in first year and you're props already asking you to do this kind of this kind of work, which you said usually only third and fourth year students do, that's that's a good sign. Jonathan: I hope it is, yeah. OK. And uh next part about these questions, OK, so uh, do you think that people maybe not yourself, but like people you knew maybe clashed in values with their parents? (19:07) L.M.: Yeah, I think I think to to some degree yeah. I mean I think that's, that's probably fairly normal with every generation though I would say. Jonathan: Yeah, that's true. L.M.: But because I mean, things do change and evolve and and, and it it may have been particularly true in the 70s. I mean, because of the feminist movement and because, you know, women were, had felt that they had more control of their bodies. They felt that they had, more, they were more likely to you know, to to get good jobs that they could do what they wanted. I mean, I think that was the thing. About feminism was that it started, you know that the, the gender roles were starting to break down. Which was a good. That, that, that. I think was the start of that. Jonathan: OK. But with that, do you know any, maybe, other women who were, like activists, may they participated in marches or protests and such? (20:22) L.M.: No, not particularly. Jonathan: Hmm. Were these sort of things rare in Ottawa? L.M.: I don't remember any, to be honest. You know, it's funny. I can remember things going on in Vancouver, but I don't remember, I don't remember Ottawa and, as I say, maybe I just hung out with people who were too studious, who were either. Jonathan: No time for activism. (21:02) L.M.: That's right. But yeah, I don't really remember. And it's it's weird because you'd think in Ottawa there would be but. But I don't know. Jonathan: Maybe they're all in, like a far off place. Not not near the university. Now that is interesting. L.M.: Well, maybe there are just so many Main Street because it's such a government town that it's government and engineering. I mean, so maybe maybe, the maybe the folks there were just more straight-laced. They they were part of, you know, they were at the power centre, so they didn't have to protest. Jonathan: Yeah, they they already did all the things. Yeah. Umm, well, usually just like out of town. People come to Ottawa. It's like, oh, you know, do some marches and protests. L.M.: Yeah, it certainly happens now, doesn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, it's pretty, it seems pretty common these days ugh. (21:57) L.M.: Yeah. But I don't remember that kind of thing happening in. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. But OK, looking back during that time, what aspect of Canadian society do you think was the most, you know or broken or just something that had to be dixed. I think you said something about, was it Western alienation? L.M.: Yeah, there was. Well, there was, there was Western alienation and there was the also the the focus on Quebec and trying to get Quebec to stay within Canada. That was certainly a big issue at the time. Jonathan: And it overshadowed like other issues that you thought were also very important. L.M.: Yeah, I think so. Jonathan: Yeah, were, any like specific maybe Western issues that you thought just was never addressed? L.M.: No, I think it was. It was just more feeling. You know, I don't know that there was anything specific I I think. There was a, you know, financial to some degree, I think there was a sense that that, that a lot of a lot of federal money went into Quebec to try to appease Quebec? And that the. (22:58) Jonathan: It was more feeling like you're just like second rate. OK. And similar to that, what do you think was the biggest forms of injustice during that time? I guess you can probably still answer Western alienation. L.M.: Yeah, and and also I mean, I do think even though as I say, my my mother didn't think it was an issue. I do think it was. There were still challenges with women in the workforce. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, you don't have anything more to say about that? (24:04) L.M.: Quebec, as I said, and and you know, Quebec separatism because I think I think most well, certainly the people I knew whether in BC or in Ontario did not want to see Quebec separate because of the feeling that it would be very disrupt, it would be very disruptive to the entire country. Jonathan: Yeah, definitely would’ve been. L.M.: So that as I say, that was probably. You know in Canada that was probably one of the the key issues at the time. Jonathan: The issues of the time, well, I guess all that federal money did pay off, Quebec voted to stay in, yeah. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. They're still with us. Jonathan: And last question about this, did you think the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the issues at the time? L.M.: I yeah, I think I did. Because I was a, I was a, you know, I was a student liberal at the time. And so I believed that the, the Liberal government was, you know, doing its best to address things. And also in the day I think politics were far more respectful. I mean, I remember having, I think I mentioned I was a teaching assistant and I remember one of my students worked on the Hill and worked for a, a Conservative MP, you know, and was talking about the, the genuine respect behind the scenes that you know that basically that all MP's had for one another because you know which, which is not, I don't think you see that to the same degree today, which is very distressing both in Canada and the US, well around the world. We seem to be getting more polarized. (25:01) Jonathan: That that is true, yeah. (26:04) L.M.: It is very disturbing. But you know at the time, I think at the time, I think government probably worked better than it does now. You know, I think we had a cabinet system that worked reasonably well, and, so yeah, at the time, I think I thought things were being reasonably well handled. Jonathan: OK, uh, the Prime Minister at times, that was Pierre Trudeau, right? L.M.: Right. Jonathan: Yeah, Pierre Trudeau, OK. So you thought it was, good. L.M.: I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I had a fair amount of respect for him. And I thought he was trying to do some, Some decent things. Jonathan: And even like government in general, the politics in general that they were better, better then than now? L.M.: The politics in general were much better than they are now, yes. I think, Trudeau senior was smarter than his son and cabinet government was more- (26:58) Jonathan: Competent? L.M.: -was more effective than. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Because over time there's just been more and more power concentrated in the, in the Prime Minister's office. Jonathan: OK. And now we're at the last part in 30 minutes. We've actually I think we might have spent more time talking the last time. L.M.: Yeah, we probably did, but- Jonathan: Yeah. Well, that's it. That's good, longer, longer, Interview is better for me. OK, OK. So the last part, historians again they say that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the, the free love Movement changed gender relations and dating in the 1970s. Do you agree with? L.M.: Yes. (28:05) Jonathan: Yes? Do you have anything more to add about that, like personal insight? L.M.: Well, no. Yeah, not personal insight necessarily, but just I think that it made. Well, for one thing, I mean it, it's part of what made it possible for women to be more involved in the in the workforce because they had, they had control over if or when they had kids. Because that was certainly, you know, in the beginning that was one of the, the challenges or the things that was was thrown up at women in terms of hiring women. You know, why would you do that? Because, you know, they'll just go off and have a family because that's what women were always supposed to do in the past. So, I think that, I think that did make a difference. Jonathan: OK. (29:02) L.M.: And, it probably also made a difference, I don't know whether this is true or not, I'm thinking that that women. And I never felt this, but, and I don't know whether some women felt that it, you know, they were more, it was easier to have kind of multiple relationships or, or people were more relaxed in terms of, you know, how soon, or whether they had sex in a in a relationship? Jonathan: No. Hmm. L.M.: I think there were that that would have that made a difference to women. Jonathan: OK. And about, you know, dating and stuff was what, a dating look like back then, eh? L.M.: What did dating look like? Jonathan: Yeah, it was, you know, just the same as now, you know? Yeah. You take your date, you go to dinner. L.M.: Well, I mean, I don't know, because I honestly, I don't know. I don't know anything about what dating looks like now. It looks like everybody just stares at their phones all the time. (29:57) Jonathan: Well, yeah. You, you do, you do that a lot, but you also, you know, go to restaurants, go to concerts, go to the yeah. L.M.: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good without your phone. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, without out phones, you gotta physically interact too. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that's still going on because yeah, that I mean, that's basically what I, certainly, I mean I remember, you know, going down to Quebec City to visit friends, I had friends who'd come out from Vancouver, and I was at you of all friends at Laval and, and, and yeah, and my boyfriend moved in. He was in Ottawa for, for a couple of years and then he moved to Montreal. He interned down there, so I went back and forth to so. But yeah, it was more, you know, going out with friends or just going out together, going to restaurant, maybe going to the theatre. Jonathan: Did you actually, did you maybe have like long phone calls or something with them? Maybe you know if you're far away. (31:03) L.M.: Yeah, we sometimes had long phone calls and we used to go. We used to go get together. We used to go hiking. I remember going, you know, with him and with other friends going, going on canoe trips in the summer that one of my friends organized. Jonathan: Yeah. That's too outdoors for me. L.M.: Yeah, that's way too outdoorsy for this survey, isn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, well. Probably depends on the person. I'm a, I'm a city person, so uh, I don't like going. L.M.: Yeah. So that doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably happening more and more and more, but. Jonathan: A lot more people live in cities. L.M.: But no, I enjoyed. Yeah, I enjoy the outdoors. I still do, not as. Anyway, yeah, because I used to go cross country skiing and I used to go downhill skiing too. When I was U of O, I was probably still doing more downhill, and then I got more into cross country. But yeah, no, I, I enjoy the outdoors. So yeah, I went hiking and. Jonathan: There’s skiing in Ottawa? (32:06) L.M.: Well, there's camp fortune. I don't know whether Camp Fortune still exists. I mean, it's not. Much of A ski. Can't forget it. Not much of a, you know for sure. I think it was called Camp Fortune. Yeah. Jonathan: It's still there. Ohh it's north of Gatineau. L.M.: Was up in the Gatineau yeah. Jonathan: But still close to Ottawa. L.M.: Yeah, that's right, because, that was the other thing. There was a fair amount of, you know, you know I had some friends who used to go over to, to Quebec to go drinking, you know, they'd go over to the Chaudiere(??). Was a, was a well known hang out. Jonathan: Because the legal age was lower? L.M.: A bit like. The, the hours were longer. Jonathan: Oh. Ah, you could drink more. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. Jonathan: I've never went drinking, so I wouldn't know about any of the sort of stuff. Do you think there's any, like maybe special things in the 1970s. Like something that just never happens again about dating or, you know, social life-ing? (32:55) L.M.: No, I mean, I think as I say, I think it was the beginning of a shift probably in terms of, of, of, of women feeling freer than they had in the past and you know able. Having more control of their lives. But that that has continued, like although there's now, there's folks in the states we may not, there's probably some nutbars here too, who want to close that down. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. L.M.: You know, some of the crazy Republicans who were trying to take control, take women's control away and ban abortion and ban birth control, which is that's I I, find that unbelievable that that people could be trying to take a step backwards at this point, but. Jonathan: Yeah, it's insane. It's been like, what, 50 years? (34:07) L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think they just it. I think it is some just really primarily just really conservative men who are just feeling threatened by everything they're threatened by, they're threatened by women, they're threatened by people of different races. I I don't know what their problem is, but they're they're. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think we dwelled a bit too much on that. Yeah, it's about the 1970s, not, not today. L.M.: Yeah. OK. Sorry. Yeah, no. But I think that was the beginning. I I don't, I wouldn't say that it's something that, you know that happened then that we never haven't seen again. But I think there were some significant shifts that happened then that are still carrying on in terms of. In terms of gender roles. Jonathan: OK, so there was a big social shift during that. (35:07) L.M.: Time, though I think there. Yeah, I think that was the beginning of a significant shift. Jonathan: But at the same time, it didn't really affect like what you'd actually do for, you know, fun and stuff. L.M.: No, I mean, I don't think my interests have shifted particularly you know, I mean I grew up interested in arts and theatre and and that, that, that still stuff today, you know, it was stuff I did then it was stuff I did before then, it's stuff I've done since then, you know, I'm, I'm still the the same person and I just carry on with my own interests. Jonathan: OK. Yeah, well, OK. And the final, final, final part. Uh, it's the stuff about sexual harassment and. OK, many universities today have been forced to, you know, heavily police sexual harassment. To what extent did the university maybe monitor social events or mixers back then because of sexual harassment? L.M.: I don't think at all. (36:14) Jonathan: Just not at all? L.M.: I don't think so. Jonathan: Was there any like, do you think there's, like a pamphlet like, oh, don’t, don't rape? Sorry. L.M.: I well. Yeah, I don't think that. I don't think that kind of thing was really coming to light at that point. I think that's been far more, recent that there are those. I mean, I think there were issues then, but I don't think I mean obviously based on what we know now, there's been a whole lot of bad behavior going on for a long time and it would have been going on then too, but it wasn't, it wasn't coming to light then. That's something that's happened more recently. Jonathan: But do you think the university viewed it as a problem or it's like, oh, this is just personal stuff? (37:05) L.M.: Yeah, I think they viewed it, I don't think they did view it as a problem, but I don't think it was, really on the radar I. Well, I shouldn't say that. I mean, obviously you know, if if, if a rape happened that people were worried about it, but. Jonathan: OK. OK. L.M.: But I don't. It's yeah. Jonathan: But the university didn't go out of its way to try to stop it. L.M.: No, there there was nothing proactive at the time with respect to- Jonathan: OK. L.M.: -to to rape. To to those issues that's I guess that's how I'd have. To put it. Jonathan: Alright. And oh, actually miss something for the final thing, the final thing is about sexuality and harassment. Sorry. And so the last two questions. Because the specific uh, the project is, there's a lot of interest in the free love stuff. So what was the perception of premarital sex? Do you think it was you know, accepted, or is it not accepted? Or- (37:49) L.M.: Yeah, it was that that I'd. Say that was a a difference between like my parents generation and my generation is that that premarital sex from from in my generation like in the 70s, that was, that was pretty much accepted and I don't think it was in previous generations. And I I think, yeah, I think it was accepted in the 70s because of the availability of birth control. Jonathan: OK. Do you think? But do you think maybe it was even encouraged, like people like, because of birth control, let's have a lot of sex? L.M.: I think it was probably far, it was more, there were more people engaging in in sexual activity than when than in my parents' generation, probably, yeah. (38:58) Jonathan: OK. And with your parents, did your parents or like other people's parents, worry about that sort of things, like, oh, “don't have premarital sex.” They ever maybe tell you or tell you? L.M.: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that would have been as I, I mean I never discussed sex with my parents. We never had that conversation- Jonathan: Ah yeah. L.M.: -but I do remember, you know there at at some point it it came up because I mean, as I said, I used to go camping with my boyfriend. And stuff and so. So I think my, you know, my parents were probably worried about what might be going on and, you know. If that concerned them, they were right to be worried, but we never talked about it and and, you know- Jonathan: So you never knew if they were like- (39:57) L.M.: -I was using birth control, so I it was, you know, to me that that seemed to be a natural thing to be doing at that age. For my parents, it probably wouldn't have been and they would, would have preferred that my behavior emulated theirs, but it was a different era. So. Jonathan: Hmm, that yeah, well that's the same now you know. My parents, they won't me to be more like them, yeah. L.M.: Sure. Yeah, I think that's I think I think that's the expectation of parents because you know that's what they know, and so it's they, they're. People always seem to find change difficult. Jonathan: Yeah, that is true. Well, that's actually all the questions. Alright, alright, perfect. L.M.: All right. Well, I hope this has worked this time and uh- Jonathan: Yeah, I really hope to. Ugh. L.M.: -Yeah. Yeah, sorry you got stuck with a, with a subject who's not not, not, outside of the norm of what the project's looking for. Jonathan: Well, to be fair, I think I think you're a lot closer than some of the other people because, apparently a lot of other students had trouble even contacting the, the first person they were given. (41:04) L.M.: Oh, is that right? Jonathan: Yeah. And apparently because there was so much problems that the teacher just like, oh, “do you know anyone who went to school in the 1970s?” Yes, anyone. Basically it's like OK, you ask your own parents if they if they went to like university then so I think you are a lot closer to what they expected. L.M.: You know how? Yeah. Do you know how they they came up with the list? Like how did they, how did they. Jonathan: The list of people? L.M.: Yeah, the list of the list of contacts that that you were working with. Jonathan: I have no idea. I just know the the teacher like you know that he contacted a lot of people. How how did how do you reach you? L.M.: Well, interestingly in my case I wasn't reached directly, but but in the the the reaching there was a a, a friend of mine who was the only other anglophone in the program that I was in at U of O and the masters program and and, for some reason, he was on the list and and then he forwarded it to me saying, you know, in case I was interested, he figured I'd probably received it too, since he received it, but I hadn't. And so that's why I was curious because I thought, well, I have given money to U of O, I'm still on, you know, still get bumped from U of O. (41:57) Jonathan: Ohh. L.M.: But I didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't on their their list, so I was curious as to how they managed to. Because I mean, it shouldn't be. Jonathan: All right. I think with you specifically is that uh, you graduated, uh, 1976, right? L.M.: Correct. Jonathan: They like initially if I remember very correctly they wanted the people who graduated in 1974. (42:58) L.M.: Right, yeah. Jonathan: That's a bit weird, and yeah, you were just, like, just off from the list. L.M.: That's right. I think we were kind of at the end of the wave. I mean, I think in many ways a lot of the really exciting stuff was happening in the late 60s. And so that's when that's when these, you know, a lot of these ideas were more, new if you like. That's, yeah. So we were, we were kind of at the end of. Jonathan: OK, remember, I think he said he just he went to yearbooks and like the university database or something and just contacted people's emails just gave like everyone an e-mail and see who responded. L.M.: OK. Yeah. Yeah, because that would be the challenge. I mean, you have the list of who graduated, but you have no idea where they are now, so. But but I still don't understand why I wouldn't have been contacted because, well, maybe it's as you say, it's just mind you, my, my friend who was we were there at the same time we were there for the same. We were both there from 74 to 76. We were there at the same two years, so I'm not quite sure why they would have found him and not me. Jonathan: Yeah, I think it really is. Maybe he just he just missed you. Yeah, you know he. Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's how it is. (44:03) L.M.: Well, anyway, well, I I. Like, I hope that you're you and your friends. How many people have you had to interview? Jonathan: Uh, no, just you. There was. I had another person, but he said he was too busy to work with. L.M.: OK. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, honestly, I think I'm very lucky that you responded, yeah. L.M.: Well, it It probably comes from my my teaching assistant experience. I have sympathy for students. Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: You're welcome, and I wish you the best of luck with your studies. Jonathan: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for for doing this again. L.M.: You're welcome. (45:02) Jonathan: Yeah. Have a great day. L.M.: You too. Bye now. Jonathan: Yeah. Thank you. Bye. (45:05) Transcription Translation Jonathan : Euh, bonjour ? (00:00:19) L.M. : Bonjour ? Jonathan : Bonjour, L. C'est bien L.? L.M. : Oui. Est-ce que vous m'entendez ? Jonathan : Oui, je vous entends. L.M. : D'accord, c'est bien. Jonathan : OK. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. Je n'arrive pas à y croire. La dernière fois, on n'a rien enregistré. Euh. L.M. : Oui, c'est dommage. Mais nous allons réessayer. Jonathan : Oui, nous allons réessayer. Merci. Merci beaucoup pour cela, L.M. : De rien. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Nous sommes le 24 octobre. Commençons l'interview. Je vais passer en revue toutes les questions dans l'ordre cette fois-ci. D'ACCORD. La première question porte sur la culture populaire de l'époque : "Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment occupiez-vous votre temps libre ?", ou que faisiez-vous pour vous amuser ? L.M. : J'allais nager à la piscine de l'Université d'Ottawa. J'allais patiner sur le canal. J'allais au Centre national d'art et à la Galerie nationale et j'allais au restaurant ou au pub avec des amis. (1:19) Jonathan : OK et, euh, est-ce que ces restaurants, ces pubs étaient les endroits les plus populaires ? L.M. : Euh, non. J'avais l'habitude d'aller dans un bon restaurant indien avec mon petit ami qui se trouvait sur Nam. C'était près de l'université et il y avait une crêperie sur la rue Rideau et Nate's Delicatessen. Oui, c'était bien. Mais oui, je suppose qu'ils étaient assez populaires. Je ne sais pas. (01:52) Jonathan : Mais connaissiez-vous des endroits super populaires ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? D'accord, alors. Hmm. Eh bien, oui, c'est ça, je suppose. Quoi qu'il en soit, vous écoutez... L.M. : C'est vrai, je suis. Je ne le suis pas vraiment. Je n'entre pas vraiment dans le moule de ce que ce projet essaie de faire, je pense en tout cas. Jonathan : Oui, c'est ça. L'étudiant super moyen, je suppose. Vous écoutez beaucoup de musique pendant ce temps, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Oui, j'écoute surtout de la musique folk. Jonathan : Oui, bonjour. Folk et classique, avez-vous dit la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, le folk et le classique. Mais j'écoute, vous savez, j'écoute Joan Baez. C'est ce qu'elle aurait été. Elle était populaire à l'époque parce qu'elle était certainement une activiste politique. Jonathan : Oh, mais... (3:03) L.M. : Voilà. Jonathan : En ce qui concerne la musique, avez-vous assisté à des concerts de musique en direct ? L.M. : Eh bien, comme je l'ai dit, oui, un peu de classique au centre des arts. J'ai assisté à quelques spectacles à Montréal, je suis allé à Montréal et j'ai entendu Gilles Vigneault et Michel Fugain. Au Centre d'art de Montréal. Jonathan : Oui, les Arts à Montréal. Bon sang. Honnêtement, je ne connais aucun de ces noms. L.M. : Ce n'est pas surprenant. Ils sont francophones, d'une part, donc leur culture ne vous est probablement pas familière, et ils datent des années 70. Jonathan : Oui, depuis longtemps. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Alors vous voulez m'entendre dire des choses comme, oh, oui, je suis allé voir les Rolling Stones et le Grateful Dead et... Jonathan : Eh bien, ce serait beaucoup plus pratique si vous le faisiez. L.M. : Il y aurait des cases à cocher. (4:00) Jonathan : Oui, et c'est beaucoup plus facile de tout écrire. Ohh. Ok, donc la partie suivante "nous utilisons le terme culture de la fête pour décrire certaines universités". Comment décririez-vous la "culture du parti" à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Eh bien, je n'étais pas particulièrement au courant. Je ne sais pas si c'était dans le coin, il y avait des soirées dansantes la première année où j'étais en résidence et il y avait souvent des soirées dans la résidence à côté de la mienne où j'allais parfois. Jonathan : Umm, mais c'était juste pour danser. Il ne s'est rien passé d'autre. L.M. : Oui, c'est juste de la danse. Non, c'était juste de la danse. Ils avaient, vous savez, de la musique enregistrée et il y avait de la danse. Jonathan : Oh. Tu es allé les voir ? L.M. : Est-ce que je suis allé, est-ce que je suis allé danser là-bas ? Oui. Jonathan : Oui. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? "C'est de la danse organisée, ou c'est comme, tu sais, tu te secoues, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M. : Oui, secouons-nous en dansant. C'est ça. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et euh, que pensait le corps étudiant ou vous-même de la guerre du Vietnam ? L.M. : Eh bien, je ne l'étais pas. Je n'étais pas pour, évidemment. C'est vrai. C'était certainement troublant à l'époque. Comme dans toute guerre, il y avait beaucoup de gens qui étaient tués inutilement. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm. Mais. Est-ce que tu penses qu'il y a une, la... L.M. : Non. Il n'y a pas eu beaucoup de discussions à ce sujet, vous savez, dans, vous savez, certainement parmi les étudiants. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que le consensus général était que la plupart des gens, n'étaient pas, n'aimaient pas vraiment ça. Ils étaient plutôt contre ? (5:53) L.M. : Oui, je pense que la plupart des gens l'étaient. Je veux dire, et certainement le Canada, vous savez, nous nous sommes retrouvés avec beaucoup de Dodgers de la guerre. Je crois que je l'ai déjà mentionné. J'étais certainement conscient qu'il y avait des jeunes hommes qui venaient ici parce qu'ils ne croyaient pas à la guerre. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm, avez-vous personnellement vu, rencontré des réfractaires ? L.M. : Non, pas que je me souvienne. Jonathan : Très bien. Le prochain sujet est le rock'n'roll. Je sais que vous n'en écoutiez pas beaucoup. Mais est-ce que vous, ou peut-être vos parents, avez des opinions sur le rock'n'roll ? Est-ce que vous le considérez comme de la " musique du diable " ? L.M. : Non, je veux dire que c'était certainement une musique tout à fait acceptable pour les jeunes de l'époque, je n'avais rien contre. C'est juste que ce n'était pas quelque chose que j'écoutais beaucoup personnellement. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais et vos. Est-ce que vos parents avaient un avis sur la question ? (6:59) L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Hmm, OK. D'accord et... L.M. : Je veux dire que je... Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : -Oui. Jonathan : OK. L.M. : Je veux dire, j'ai certainement, j'ai certainement entendu ça. Je veux dire que j'ai entendu les Beatles, j'ai entendu les Stone, j'ai entendu I. Vous savez, si, si des enfants faisaient une fête, c'est le genre de musique qu'on mettrait, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Ah. C'était donc encore populaire. L.M. : Certainement que maintenant, j'y vais. Vous savez, je reviens à l'époque de l'UBC. Je pense que. Je pense qu'une partie de la différence avec l'Université de l'Ontario est que j'étais un étudiant diplômé, vous savez, et je traînais avec des étudiants en médecine et, et ils étaient tous assez sérieux. Vous savez, ils devaient passer par l'école de médecine et ainsi de suite. Jonathan : Oui, les étudiants en licence sont, oui. Beaucoup plus détendus. L.M. : Oui. Tout à fait. Je veux dire, ils sont plus jeunes et ils sont, vous savez, ils sont là pour beaucoup d'entre eux. C'est un peu leur chance, leur chance de s'éloigner de la maison, etc. Jonathan : Amusez-vous bien, oui. D'ACCORD. Et bien sûr, les années 1970. Il y avait beaucoup de drogues à l'époque. Dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou consommées sur le campus ? (8:02) L.M. : Je ne sais pas vraiment parce que je ne les utilisais pas personnellement. Vous savez, je suis sûre qu'il y en avait. Je suis sûr qu'ils étaient disponibles. Ils sont disponibles partout, depuis des années. Ils l'ont toujours été et le seront toujours. Jonathan : C'est vrai. Mais, hmm, est-ce que tu as connu beaucoup de toxicomanes, comme des gens qui fumaient de la marijuana ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? L.M. : Je veux dire, oui, eh bien, c'est, oui. Non, c'est certain. Je connaissais certainement. J'en connaissais certains, je pense, parce que je connaissais un gars qui était, vous savez, qui était allé à l'école secondaire à Ottawa. Alors il... Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Je dirais donc que, oui, c'était bel et bien présent. J'étais au courant. Des gens qui l'utilisaient. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous aussi que c'était courant ? (9:04) L.M. : Oui, bien sûr, c'était courant. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Dernière chose à propos des drogues. Pensez-vous que beaucoup d'étudiants ont consommé des hallucinogènes ? Ou des drogues psychédéliques aussi. L.M. : Oui, je n'en ai aucune idée. En tout cas, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que mes amis étaient particuliers. Je veux dire, les gens que je connaissais n'étaient pas intéressés, mais... Encore une fois, j'en suis sûre. Ils étaient là. Je sais qu'ils étaient là. Jonathan : Mais ce n'était pas si courant que ça, vous connaissiez quelqu'un qui l'utilisait ? L.M. : Oui, ce n'était certainement pas très courant parmi les étudiants en médecine. Jonathan : Oh oui, les étudiants en médecine en sauraient-ils beaucoup plus sur les médicaments ? L.M. : Oh, ils en savaient probablement un peu plus, mais pas moi. Je n'en suis pas nécessairement la cause parce que je ne pense pas qu'aucun d'entre eux l'était. Ils en savaient probablement assez pour ne pas les utiliser. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. C'est ainsi que se termine la première partie sur la culture pop. Les historiens parlent du féminisme de la deuxième vague comme faisant partie du mouvement général de la contre-culture dans les années 1970. Il est dit que... (9:57) L.M. : En quoi cela a-t-il été la deuxième vague ? Quand a eu lieu la première vague ? Ont-ils parlé de la première vague ? Jonathan : C'était au. Je pense que c'était au début des années 1900, lorsque les femmes ont obtenu le droit de vote. L.M. : Oh, d'accord. D'accord. La deuxième vague, c'est ce qui se passe dans les années 70, d'accord ? Jonathan : Oui. Il est dit que dans les années 1970, les femmes se sont efforcées de faire tomber les barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que c'est le cas ? Cette description correspond-elle à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Jonathan : Oui ? Y a-t-il une chose spécifique que vous pouvez décrire ? L.M. : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'ai fini par connaître beaucoup d'étudiants en médecine, mes colocataires étaient des étudiants en médecine. Il y avait probablement plus de femmes, et puis j'en ai eu une pendant un certain temps qui était aussi étudiante en droit, donc il y avait certainement plus de femmes. Il y avait donc certainement plus de femmes que par le passé qui accédaient aux professions libérales à cette époque. (10:53) Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, voilà. Oui, c'est ça. OK. L.M. : Il y en avait plus. Il y avait plus de femmes à l'université et plus de femmes. Il y avait certainement plus de femmes dans les professions libérales, en particulier en droit et en médecine. J'en ai certainement vu plus. Oui, il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes dans ces domaines. Je pense qu'il a fallu un certain temps pour qu'elles y aillent, vous savez. Et maintenant, on en voit plus dans l'ingénierie aussi, c'était plus long, c'était plus long à venir. Mais comme je l'ai dit à mon époque. Il y avait, je pense que c'était vraiment le début de, vous savez, voir beaucoup de femmes en médecine et en droit. Jonathan : OK, donc la médecine et le droit, vous avez dit que pour vous, c'était le grand, comme beaucoup de femmes l'ont fait. Je ne peux pas vraiment décrire cela. Je ne sais pas vraiment comment le décrire. OK, euh, qu'est-ce que le féminisme ? Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait pour vous à l'époque ? Ou peut-être que vous... (11:55) L.M. : Oui, comme je pense que je... Jonathan : Oui, je crois que vous avez déjà répondu à cette question. L.M. : Oui, parce que ma mère était professeur d'université et qu'elle avait une longueur d'avance. C'est vrai. Pour moi, le fait d'avoir une, mais je sais certainement qu'en tant qu'enfant, j'étais la seule, vous savez, j'étais la seule femme. J'étais la seule femme, la seule personne de mon école primaire dont la mère travaillait. Elle travaillait, je pense, et vous savez, et c'était probablement à peu près la même chose jusqu'à, jusqu'au lycée, bien que les choses aient peut-être commencé à changer à ce moment-là, il y avait peut-être quelques femmes, vous savez, qui travaillaient parce que leurs enfants étaient à l'école. Mais c'était certainement moins courant, mais pour moi. J'ai toujours pensé que j'irais à l'université et que je travaillerais parce que c'était, vous savez, avec ma mère comme modèle, ce que je pensais faire. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Donc je suppose que vous appelleriez votre, votre mère, un modèle féministe ? (13:16) L.M. : Elle ne s'appellerait certainement pas comme ça. Vous savez, autant que la première. Les femmes qui avaient réussi professionnellement avaient tendance à bouder le mouvement féministe parce que, vous savez, elles avaient fait leur propre chemin. Elles ne pouvaient donc pas comprendre quel était le problème des autres. Cela dit, je ne suis pas d'accord avec ma mère sur ce point. Je pense qu'il y a des problèmes, et il y en a encore, sur la façon dont les femmes sont traitées sur le lieu de travail, mais j'ai eu beaucoup de chance. Je n'ai pas rencontré de problèmes moi-même. Eh bien, oui, il y a, il y a certainement, je, je dirais qu'il y a certainement certains aspects du réseau des vieux garçons et vous savez les hommes qui s'occupent d'eux-mêmes et il était plus difficile pour les femmes de se frayer un chemin, généralement je pense. Jonathan : Hmm, c'est intéressant. Mais vous dites que votre mère n'aimait pas vraiment le mouvement féministe ? (14:18) L.M. : Non, parce qu'elle ne l'a pas fait. Pour elle, ce n'était pas un problème, vous savez. Il suffit d'y aller et de le faire, de faire ce que l'on veut faire et c'est tout. Et elle, je veux dire. Et elle travaillait évidemment à cette époque dans un environnement très masculin, mais elle a réussi. Je pense donc qu'elle n'était pas trop compatissante. Elle était juste. Jonathan : Oui, c'est. C'est très intéressant. Je n'avais pas vraiment, vous savez, je pense. Elle est dans un endroit dominé par les hommes, elle devrait l'être, oui, vous savez. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, oui. Je pense que c'est peut-être à cette époque qu'on l'a accepté, on ne l'a pas vraiment accepté, je ne sais pas. (15:01) Jonathan : Oui, je suppose que c'était vrai. Vous avez accepté les choses. C'est comme ça. L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et puis bien sûr, vous avez déjà parlé du droit et de la médecine, mais vous savez, à U Ottawa, les programmes et les départements étaient des endroits où les femmes n'étaient pas acceptées. Pas acceptées. Vous savez, peut-être comme l'ingénierie. L.M. : Eh bien, oui, c'est probablement vrai... Jonathan : Le plus gros ? L.M. : -Je pense que je pense, oui, je ne pense pas que je connaissais des femmes dans l'ingénierie. Oui, je pense que c'est possible, mais je ne l'étais pas vraiment. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas vraiment proche de quelqu'un dans la revue d'ingénierie non plus. Alors oui, c'est difficile à dire. Jonathan : Mais y en avait-il ? Oui. Oui. Mais tu sais, peut-être que tu en connaissais. Peut-être que vous connaissiez aussi des clubs ou comme, oh non, on n'aime pas les femmes dans ce club. L.M. : Oui, pas vraiment. Jonathan : Dans les clubs ? L.M. : Je n'aimais pas vraiment les clubs, alors oui. (16:04) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et la partie suivante, c'est sur, euh, la contre-culture en général, qui est en fait tout, vous savez, vous n'êtes pas vraiment d'accord avec les valeurs de vos parents. Vous avez déjà dit, euh, vous savez, vous avez eu un petit conflit avec votre mère à propos du féminisme ? L.M. : Euh, je, je. Non, je n'étais pas en conflit avec elle. Je, vous savez... Jonathan : Mais vous n'étiez pas d'accord. L.M. : -J'étais enclin à être d'accord avec elle. Pardon ? Jonathan : Oui. Vous n'étiez donc pas d'accord ? Jamais, non, vraiment. Conflit. L.M. : Oui. Eh bien, je pense qu'à l'époque, je veux dire que j'aurais, j'aurais été en désaccord plus tard dans la vie. Je pense qu'à l'époque, j'ai juste accepté, hum, vous savez, je pensais qu'elle savait probablement de quoi elle parlait, et je ne le savais pas. Je ne m'attendais pas à rencontrer des problèmes personnels. Et cela n'a jamais été le cas, mais... Jonathan : Donc à l'époque vous, vous savez, vous n'avez pas vraiment réfléchi, vous, vous étiez plutôt d'accord ? (17:02) L.M. : Oui, à l'époque, je ne le savais pas. Oui, à l'époque, je pensais simplement que j'allais, vous savez, terminer mon diplôme et trouver un emploi et que ce, qu'un master pourrait conduire à un emploi intéressant. Et, et j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants, je ne sais pas si le master y a contribué. Soudain, le fait d'être bilingue, d'être bilingue à Ottawa, c'était la grande affaire ? Jonathan : C'est une chose importante. Oui, j'aime à penser que votre maîtrise vous aide parce que j'envisage d'en obtenir une après cela. L.M. : Vous allez bien, c'est bien pour vous. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Quel est le vôtre ? Votre domaine est l'histoire. Jonathan : Oui, c'est de l'histoire ancienne. L.M. : Oui, tant mieux pour vous. Jonathan : Merci. L.M. : Oui, non, je vous encourage à le faire. Jonathan : J'aime bien. J'aime à penser que cela a été d'une grande aide. L.M. : Oui, vous savez, je crois que les diplômes en histoire, en anglais ou en sciences sociales sont tous très utiles parce qu'en fin de compte. (17:56) Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : En fin de compte, il faut être capable de comprendre les gens. Quel que soit le domaine dans lequel on travaille. C'est pourquoi les études aident à cela. Jonathan : Oui, honnêtement, je pense qu'une licence est l'une de ces choses que les gens n'aiment pas. Il faut donc avoir un master, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Eh bien, c'est ce que je pensais à l'époque. C'est ce que je pensais aussi à l'époque. Et vous savez, j'avais peut-être raison. Comme je l'ai dit, j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants. Donc. Jonathan : J'espère que vous avez toujours raison. L.M. : Oui, pour vous, j'espère que j'ai raison aussi, j'en suis sûre. Je suis sûr que si vous êtes en première année et que vous êtes déjà en train de faire ce genre de travail, ce que vous avez dit que seuls les étudiants de troisième et quatrième année font habituellement, c'est un bon signe. Jonathan : J'espère que oui. D'ACCORD. Et euh, la prochaine partie de ces questions, OK, donc euh, pensez-vous que les gens, peut-être pas vous-même, mais comme les gens que vous avez connus, ont peut-être des valeurs différentes de celles de leurs parents ? (19:07) L.M. : Oui, je pense que dans une certaine mesure, oui. Je veux dire que je pense que c'est, c'est probablement assez normal pour chaque génération, je dirais. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. L.M. : Mais parce que je veux dire, les choses changent et évoluent et, et c'était peut-être particulièrement vrai dans les années 70. Je veux dire, à cause du mouvement féministe et parce que, vous savez, les femmes avaient, avaient le sentiment de mieux contrôler leur corps. Elles pensaient qu'elles avaient plus de chances d'obtenir de bons emplois et de pouvoir faire ce qu'elles voulaient. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était ça le truc. Le féminisme a commencé à briser les rôles attribués aux hommes et aux femmes, ce qui était une bonne chose. Ce qui était une bonne chose. C'est, c'est, c'est. Je pense que c'était le début. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais à ce propos, connaissez-vous d'autres femmes qui étaient des activistes, qui ont participé à des marches ou à des protestations ? (20:22) L.M. : Non, pas particulièrement. Jonathan : Hmm. Ce genre de choses était-il rare à Ottawa ? L.M. : Je ne m'en souviens pas, pour être honnête. Vous savez, c'est amusant. Je me souviens de choses qui se passaient à Vancouver, mais je ne me souviens pas, je ne me souviens pas d'Ottawa et, comme je l'ai dit, peut-être que je traînais simplement avec des gens qui étaient trop studieux, qui étaient soit. Jonathan : Pas de temps pour l'activisme. (21:02) L.M. : C'est exact. Mais oui, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Et c'est bizarre parce qu'on pourrait penser qu'à Ottawa, il y aurait des mais. Mais je ne sais pas. Jonathan : Peut-être qu'ils sont tous dans un endroit très éloigné. Pas près de l'université. C'est intéressant. L.M. : Peut-être qu'il y a tellement de Main Street parce que c'est une ville tellement gouvernementale que c'est le gouvernement et l'ingénierie. Je veux dire, alors peut-être que les gens là-bas étaient plus droits. Ils faisaient partie, vous savez, ils étaient au centre du pouvoir, donc ils n'avaient pas à protester. Jonathan : Oui, ils ont déjà fait toutes les choses. Oui. Umm, eh bien, d'habitude, c'est comme à l'extérieur de la ville. Les gens viennent à Ottawa. C'est comme, oh, vous savez, faire des marches et des protestations. L.M. : Oui, c'est certainement le cas aujourd'hui, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, c'est assez, ça semble assez courant de nos jours ugh. (21:57) L.M. : Oui. Mais je ne me souviens pas que ce genre de choses se soit produit à... Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Mais d'accord, en regardant en arrière pendant cette période, quel aspect de la société canadienne était le plus, vous savez, cassé ou juste quelque chose qui devait être désinfecté. Je crois que vous avez parlé de l'aliénation de l'Occident. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Eh bien, il y avait l'aliénation de l'Ouest et il y avait aussi l'accent mis sur le Québec et la tentative de faire en sorte que le Québec reste au sein du Canada. C'était certainement une question importante à l'époque. Jonathan : Et cela a éclipsé d'autres questions que vous jugiez également très importantes. L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Jonathan : Ouais, est-ce qu'il y a eu des problèmes spécifiques à l'Ouest qui n'ont jamais été abordés ? L.M. : Non, je pense que oui. C'était juste plus un sentiment. Je ne sais pas s'il y avait quelque chose de spécifique. Il y avait un sentiment, vous savez, financier dans une certaine mesure, je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment que, que beaucoup d'argent fédéral allait au Québec pour essayer d'apaiser le Québec... Et que le... (22:58). Et que le (22:58) Jonathan : C'est plutôt le sentiment d'être une personne de seconde zone. D'ACCORD. Dans le même ordre d'idées, quelles étaient, selon vous, les plus grandes formes d'injustice à cette époque ? Je pense que vous pouvez toujours répondre à la question de l'aliénation occidentale. L.M. : Oui, et aussi, je veux dire, je pense que même si, comme je l'ai dit, ma mère ne pensait pas que c'était un problème. Je pense que c'était le cas. Il y avait encore des problèmes avec les femmes sur le marché du travail. Jonathan : Oui. Bon, vous n'avez rien d'autre à dire à ce sujet ? (24:04) L.M. : Le Québec, comme je l'ai dit, et vous savez, le séparatisme québécois parce que je pense que la plupart des gens, certainement les gens que je connaissais, que ce soit en Colombie-Britannique ou en Ontario, ne voulaient pas que le Québec se sépare parce qu'ils avaient le sentiment que cela perturberait beaucoup l'ensemble du pays. Jonathan : Oui, certainement. L.M. : Comme je l'ai dit, c'était probablement le cas. Vous savez, au Canada, c'était probablement l'une des principales questions à l'époque. Jonathan : Les enjeux de l'époque, eh bien, je suppose que tout cet argent fédéral a porté ses fruits, le Québec a voté pour rester dans le groupe, oui. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Ils sont toujours avec nous. Jonathan : Et dernière question à ce sujet, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et adapté aux problèmes de l'époque ? L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Parce que j'étais, vous savez, j'étais un étudiant libéral à l'époque. Je pensais donc que le gouvernement libéral faisait de son mieux pour régler les problèmes. De plus, à l'époque, je pense que la politique était beaucoup plus respectueuse. Je me souviens d'avoir eu, je crois que j'ai mentionné que j'étais assistant d'enseignement et je me souviens que l'un de mes étudiants travaillait sur la Colline et travaillait pour un député conservateur, vous savez, et il parlait du, du véritable respect en coulisses que vous savez, que tous les députés avaient les uns pour les autres parce que vous savez, ce qui n'est pas, je ne pense pas que vous voyez cela au même degré aujourd'hui, ce qui est très affligeant à la fois au Canada et aux États-Unis, ainsi que dans le monde entier. Il semble que nous soyons de plus en plus polarisés. (25:01) Jonathan : C'est vrai, oui. (26:04) L.M. : C'est très inquiétant. Mais vous savez, à l'époque, je pense que le gouvernement fonctionnait probablement mieux qu'aujourd'hui. Je pense que nous avions un système de cabinet qui fonctionnait raisonnablement bien, et donc oui, à l'époque, je pensais que les choses étaient raisonnablement bien gérées. Jonathan : OK, euh, le premier ministre à certains moments, c'était Pierre Trudeau, c'est ça ? L.M. : Oui. Jonathan : Oui, Pierre Trudeau, OK. Vous avez donc pensé que c'était bien. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais pas mal de respect pour lui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais un certain respect pour lui. Et je pensais qu'il essayait de faire des choses décentes. Jonathan : Et même comme le gouvernement en général, la politique en général, c'était mieux, mieux à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui ? L.M. : La politique en général était bien meilleure qu'aujourd'hui, oui. Je pense que Trudeau père était plus intelligent que son fils et que le gouvernement était plus... (26:58) Jonathan : Compétent ? L.M. : -était plus efficace que. Oui, c'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Parce qu'au fil du temps, il y a eu de plus en plus de pouvoir concentré dans le bureau du Premier ministre. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Nous en sommes maintenant à la dernière partie, dans 30 minutes. En fait, je pense que nous avons passé plus de temps à parler la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, probablement, mais... Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, c'est tout. C'est bien, plus long, plus long, Entretien c'est mieux pour moi. D'ACCORD, D'ACCORD. Pour finir, les historiens disent que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et le mouvement de l'amour libre ont changé les relations entre les hommes et les femmes dans les années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord ? L.M. : Oui (28:05) Jonathan : Oui ? Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter à ce sujet, comme un point de vue personnel ? L.M. : Eh bien, non. Oui, ce n'est pas nécessairement un point de vue personnel, mais je pense que cela a permis. D'abord, c'est en partie ce qui a permis aux femmes de s'impliquer davantage dans le monde du travail, parce qu'elles pouvaient décider si elles avaient des enfants ou quand elles en auraient. Parce que c'était certainement, vous savez, au début, l'un des défis ou l'une des choses que l'on lançait aux femmes en termes d'embauche. Vous savez, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Parce que, vous savez, elles vont juste partir et fonder une famille parce que c'est ce que les femmes étaient toujours censées faire dans le passé. Je pense donc que cela a fait une différence. Jonathan : OK. (29:02) L.M. : Et, cela a probablement aussi fait une différence, je ne sais pas si c'est vrai ou non, je pense que les femmes. Je n'ai jamais ressenti cela, mais je ne sais pas si certaines femmes ont eu l'impression qu'il était plus facile d'avoir des relations multiples ou si les gens étaient plus détendus en ce qui concerne la fréquence ou l'opportunité des rapports sexuels au sein d'une relation. Jonathan : Non. L.M. : Je pense qu'il y en a eu qui auraient fait la différence pour les femmes. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et à propos de, vous savez, les rencontres et tout ça, à quoi ressemblait une rencontre à l'époque, hein ? L.M. : À quoi ressemblaient les rendez-vous ? Jonathan : Oui, c'était la même chose qu'aujourd'hui. Oui, c'est vrai. Vous prenez votre rendez-vous, vous allez dîner. L.M. : Eh bien, je veux dire, je ne sais pas, parce qu'honnêtement, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais rien de ce à quoi ressemblent les rencontres aujourd'hui. On dirait que tout le monde regarde son téléphone tout le temps. (29:57) Jonathan : Eh bien, oui. Vous, vous faites, vous faites ça beaucoup, mais vous allez aussi, vous savez, au restaurant, au concert, au théâtre, etc. L.M. : Oui, c'est bien. C'est bien sans ton téléphone. Jonathan : Oui. Sans téléphone, il faut aussi interagir physiquement. L.M. : Oui. Oui. Je suis contente d'entendre que ça continue parce que oui, c'est en gros ce que j'ai fait, certainement, je me souviens d'être allée à Québec pour rendre visite à des amis, j'avais des amis qui étaient venus de Vancouver, et j'étais à Laval, et, et, et oui, et mon petit ami a emménagé. Il a vécu à Ottawa pendant quelques années, puis il a déménagé à Montréal. Il a fait un stage là-bas, alors j'ai fait des allers-retours. Mais oui, c'était plus, vous savez, sortir avec des amis ou juste sortir ensemble, aller au restaurant, peut-être aller au théâtre. Jonathan : Est-ce que vous avez eu de longs appels téléphoniques avec eux ? Peut-être que si vous êtes loin, vous savez. (31:03) L.M. : Oui, nous avions parfois de longs appels téléphoniques et nous avions l'habitude d'y aller. Nous avions l'habitude de nous retrouver. Nous faisions des randonnées. Je me souviens d'avoir fait, avec lui et d'autres amis, des excursions en canoë pendant l'été, organisées par l'un de mes amis. Jonathan : Oui. C'est trop à l'extérieur pour moi. L.M. : Oui, c'est beaucoup trop extérieur pour cette enquête, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, eh bien. Cela dépend probablement de la personne. Je suis un citadin, donc je n'aime pas y aller. L.M. : Oui. Ce n'est donc pas le cas. Oui. Oui. Je pense que c'est probablement ce qui se passe de plus en plus, mais... Jonathan : Beaucoup plus de gens vivent dans les villes. L.M. : Mais non, j'ai aimé. Oui, j'aime le plein air. C'est toujours le cas, mais pas autant. En tout cas, oui, parce que j'avais l'habitude de faire du ski de fond et du ski alpin. Quand j'étais à l'Université de l'Ontario, je faisais probablement encore plus de ski alpin, puis j'ai commencé à faire du ski de fond. Mais oui, non, j'aime le plein air. Alors oui, j'ai fait de la randonnée et... Jonathan : Il y a du ski à Ottawa ? (32:06) L.M. : Eh bien, il y a le camp fortune. Je ne sais pas si le Camp Fortune existe encore. Je veux dire que ce n'est pas le cas. Beaucoup de ski A. Je ne peux pas l'oublier. Il n'y a pas grand-chose, c'est sûr. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Jonathan : C'est toujours là. Ohh c'est au nord de Gatineau. L.M. : Dans la région de Gatineau, oui. Jonathan : Mais toujours près d'Ottawa. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai, parce que c'était l'autre chose. Il y avait pas mal de, vous savez, vous savez, j'avais des amis qui allaient au Québec pour boire, vous savez, ils allaient à la Chaudière ( ??). C'était un endroit très connu. Jonathan : Parce que l'âge légal était plus bas ? L.M. : Un peu comme. Les heures étaient plus longues. Jonathan : Oh. Ah, tu peux boire plus. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Je n'ai jamais bu, donc je ne connais pas ce genre de choses. Pensez-vous qu'il y ait des choses spéciales dans les années 1970 ? Comme quelque chose qui ne se reproduit plus jamais en matière de rencontres ou, vous savez, de vie sociale ? (32:55) L.M. : Non, je veux dire, comme je l'ai dit, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement probablement en termes de, de, de, de, de femmes se sentant plus libres que par le passé et vous savez, capables. D'avoir plus de contrôle sur leur vie. Mais cela s'est poursuivi, bien qu'il y ait maintenant, aux États-Unis, des gens que nous n'avons peut-être pas, il y a probablement des cinglés ici aussi, qui veulent mettre un terme à cela. Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : Vous savez, certains des républicains fous qui essayaient de prendre le contrôle, d'enlever le contrôle aux femmes et d'interdire l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances, je trouve incroyable que l'on puisse essayer de faire un pas en arrière à ce stade, mais je pense que c'est une bonne chose. Jonathan : Oui, c'est fou. Ça fait quoi, 50 ans ? (34:07) L.M. : Oui. Je pense que c'est tout simplement ça. Je pense qu'il s'agit d'hommes très conservateurs qui se sentent menacés par tout, par les femmes, par les personnes d'autres races. Je ne sais pas quel est leur problème, mais ils le sont. Jonathan : Oui. Je crois qu'on s'est un peu trop attardé là-dessus. Oui, il s'agit des années 70, pas d'aujourd'hui. L.M. : Oui. D'ACCORD. Je suis désolée. Oui, non. Mais je pense que c'était le début. Je ne dirais pas que c'est quelque chose qui s'est produit à l'époque et que nous n'avons jamais revu. Mais je pense qu'il y a eu des changements significatifs qui se sont produits à l'époque et qui se poursuivent encore aujourd'hui en termes de rôles des hommes et des femmes. En ce qui concerne les rôles des hommes et des femmes. Jonathan : OK, donc il y a eu un grand changement social pendant cette période. (35:07) L.M. : Le temps, mais je pense que c'est là. Oui, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement important. Jonathan : Mais en même temps, ça n'affectait pas vraiment ce que vous faisiez pour vous amuser et tout ça. L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas que mes centres d'intérêt aient particulièrement changé, j'ai grandi en m'intéressant aux arts et au théâtre et c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, c'est ce que j'ai fait à l'époque, c'est ce que j'ai fait avant, c'est ce que j'ai fait depuis, je suis toujours la même personne et je continue à m'intéresser à ce qui m'entoure. Jonathan : OK. Oui, bon, d'accord. Et la dernière, dernière, dernière partie. Il s'agit du harcèlement sexuel. Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été obligées de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure l'université surveillait-elle les événements sociaux ou les réunions à l'époque à cause du harcèlement sexuel ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas du tout. (36:14) Jonathan : Pas du tout ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Est-ce qu'il y a eu, est-ce que vous pensez qu'il y a eu, comme un pamphlet du genre, oh, ne, ne violez pas ? Je suis désolée. L.M. : Eh bien. Oui, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que ce genre de choses ait vraiment été mis en lumière à ce moment-là. Je pense que c'est beaucoup plus récent. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il y avait des problèmes à l'époque, mais je ne pense pas que je veux dire, évidemment, sur la base de ce que nous savons maintenant, il y a eu tout un tas de mauvais comportements pendant longtemps et il y en avait aussi à l'époque, mais ce n'était pas, ce n'était pas mis en lumière à l'époque. C'est quelque chose qui s'est produit plus récemment. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que l'université a considéré cela comme un problème ou qu'elle s'est dit, oh, c'est juste une affaire personnelle ? (37:05) L.M. : Oui, je pense qu'ils le considéraient, je ne pense pas qu'ils le considéraient comme un problème, mais je ne pense pas que c'était vraiment sur le radar. Je veux dire, évidemment, vous savez, si, si un viol se produisait, les gens s'en inquiéteraient, mais... Jonathan : OK. D'ACCORD. L.M. : Mais pas moi. C'est oui. Jonathan : Mais l'université n'a pas fait tout ce qui était en son pouvoir pour l'empêcher. L.M. : Non, il n'y avait rien de proactif à l'époque en ce qui concerne... Jonathan : OK. L.M. : -au viol. A ces questions, je suppose que c'est ainsi que j'aurais. Pour le dire. Jonathan : D'accord. Et oh, j'ai oublié quelque chose pour la dernière chose, la dernière chose concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Je suis désolé. Et donc les deux dernières questions. Parce que le projet spécifique est, il y a beaucoup d'intérêt pour l'amour libre. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Pensez-vous que c'était accepté ou non ? Ou... (37:49) L.M. : Oui, c'est ça. La différence entre la génération de mes parents et la mienne, c'est que les relations sexuelles avant le mariage étaient acceptées dans ma génération, dans les années 70, alors qu'elles ne l'étaient pas dans les générations précédentes. Et je pense, oui, je pense que c'était accepté dans les années 70 à cause de la disponibilité du contrôle des naissances. Jonathan : OK. Est-ce que vous pensez ? Mais pensez-vous que c'était peut-être même encouragé, comme si les gens, à cause du contrôle des naissances, voulaient avoir beaucoup de relations sexuelles ? L.M. : Je pense que c'était probablement beaucoup plus, c'était plus, il y avait plus de gens qui s'engageaient dans une activité sexuelle que dans la génération de mes parents, probablement, oui. (38:58) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents ou les parents d'autres personnes, s'inquiétaient de ce genre de choses, comme, oh, "n'ayez pas de relations sexuelles avant le mariage". Est-ce qu'ils vous l'ont déjà dit ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Oui, je pense que cela aurait été comme je, je veux dire que je n'ai jamais parlé de sexe avec mes parents. Nous n'avons jamais eu cette conversation... Jonathan : Ah oui. L.M. : ... mais je me souviens qu'à un moment donné, il en a été question parce que, comme je l'ai dit, j'avais l'habitude d'aller camper avec mon petit ami. Et d'autres choses encore. Alors je pense que mes parents étaient probablement inquiets de ce qui pouvait se passer et, vous savez, s'ils étaient inquiets, ils avaient raison. Si ça les concernait, ils avaient raison d'être inquiets, mais on n'en a jamais parlé et, vous savez... Jonathan : Donc on ne savait jamais s'ils étaient comme... (39:57) L.M. : -J'utilisais un moyen de contraception, donc c'était, vous savez, pour moi, une chose naturelle à faire à cet âge. Pour mes parents, cela ne l'aurait probablement pas été et ils auraient préféré que mon comportement imite le leur, mais c'était une autre époque. C'était une autre époque. Jonathan : Hmm, ça ouais, c'est pareil maintenant tu sais. Mes parents, ils ne veulent pas que je leur ressemble, oui. L.M. : Bien sûr. Oui, je pense que c'est l'attente des parents parce que c'est ce qu'ils savent, et donc c'est eux, ils sont. Les gens semblent toujours trouver le changement difficile. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. Bon, en fait, c'est toutes les questions. D'accord, d'accord, parfait. L.M. : Très bien. J'espère que cela a fonctionné cette fois-ci et... Jonathan : Oui, je l'espère vraiment. Ugh. L.M. : Oui. Oui, je suis désolée que vous vous soyez retrouvée coincée avec un sujet qui n'est pas, pas, en dehors de la norme de ce que le projet recherche. Jonathan : Eh bien, pour être juste, je pense que vous êtes beaucoup plus proche que d'autres personnes parce que, apparemment, beaucoup d'autres étudiants ont eu du mal à contacter la, la première personne qu'on leur a donnée. (41:04) L.M. : Oh, c'est vrai ? Jonathan : Oui. Et apparemment, comme il y avait beaucoup de problèmes, le professeur a dit : "Connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui est allé à l'école dans les années 1970 ?" Oui, n'importe qui. En fait, c'est comme si on demandait à ses propres parents s'ils étaient allés à l'université à l'époque, alors je pense qu'on est beaucoup plus proche de ce qu'ils attendaient. L.M. : Vous savez comment ? Oui. Savez-vous comment ils ont dressé la liste ? Comment ont-ils fait, comment ont-ils fait. Jonathan : La liste des personnes ? L.M. : Oui, la liste des contacts avec lesquels vous travailliez. Jonathan : Je n'en ai aucune idée. Je sais juste que le professeur comme vous savez qu'il a contacté beaucoup de monde. Comment comment vous joindre ? L.M. : Eh bien, il est intéressant de noter que dans mon cas, je n'ai pas été contacté directement, mais dans le cadre du contact, il y avait un, un de mes amis qui était le seul autre anglophone dans le programme que je suivais à l'Université d'Ottawa et dans le programme de maîtrise et, pour une raison quelconque, il était sur la liste et il me l'a transmise en disant, vous savez, au cas où je serais intéressé, il pensait que je l'avais probablement reçue aussi, puisqu'il l'avait reçue, mais je ne l'avais pas reçue. C'est pourquoi j'étais curieux parce que je me disais que j'avais donné de l'argent à l'Université d'Ottawa, que j'étais toujours sur la liste et que j'étais toujours exclu de l'Université d'Ottawa (41:57). Jonathan : Ohh. L.M. : Mais je ne l'ai pas fait. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas sur leur liste, alors j'étais curieuse de savoir comment ils y étaient parvenus. Parce que je veux dire, ça ne devrait pas être le cas. Jonathan : D'accord. Je pense qu'en ce qui vous concerne plus particulièrement, vous avez obtenu votre diplôme en 1976, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : C'est exact. Jonathan : Au départ, si je me souviens bien, ils voulaient les gens qui avaient obtenu leur diplôme en 1974. (42:58) L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : C'est un peu bizarre, et oui, vous étiez juste, comme, juste en dehors de la liste. L.M. : C'est exact. Je pense que nous étions en quelque sorte à la fin de la vague. Je veux dire, je pense qu'à bien des égards, la plupart des choses vraiment excitantes se sont produites à la fin des années 60. C'est donc à ce moment-là que ces idées étaient plus nouvelles, si vous voulez. C'est ça, oui. Nous étions donc à la fin de cette période. Jonathan : Je crois qu'il a dit qu'il avait consulté les annuaires et la base de données de l'université, par exemple, et qu'il avait contacté les adresses électroniques des gens, qu'il avait envoyé un courriel à tout le monde pour voir qui répondait. L.M. : D'accord. Oui, parce que c'est là que réside le défi. Vous avez la liste des diplômés, mais vous n'avez aucune idée de l'endroit où ils se trouvent aujourd'hui. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi je n'ai pas été contactée parce que, peut-être que c'est comme vous dites, c'est juste que mon ami qui était là à la même époque, nous étions là pour la même chose. Nous y étions tous les deux de 74 à 76. Nous étions là les deux mêmes années, alors je ne sais pas vraiment pourquoi ils l'auraient trouvé lui et pas moi. Jonathan : Oui, je pense que c'est vraiment le cas. Peut-être que tu lui as manqué. Oui, tu sais qu'il... Oui, tu le sais. C'est comme ça, oui, c'est comme ça. (44:03) L.M. : Eh bien, de toute façon, eh bien, je... J'espère que vous êtes vous et vos amis. Combien de personnes avez-vous dû interviewer ? Jonathan : Euh, non, juste toi. Il y en avait un. J'avais une autre personne, mais elle a dit qu'elle était trop occupée pour travailler avec moi. L.M. : OK. Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, honnêtement, je pense que j'ai beaucoup de chance que vous ayez répondu, oui. L.M. : Eh bien, cela vient probablement de mon expérience d'assistante pédagogique. J'ai de la sympathie pour les étudiants. Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : De rien, et je vous souhaite bonne chance dans vos études. Jonathan : Merci. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. L.M. : De rien. (45:02) Jonathan : Oui, bonne journée. L.M. : Vous aussi. Au revoir. Jonathan : Oui. Je vous remercie. Au revoir. (45:05) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., L (pseudonym) (Interview) Description An account of the resource Interview about uOttawa in the 1970s, including the dating/social life, feminism, and a little politics. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, 45 minutes, 10 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Muzio, Aila Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Zoom) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Aila : Ok, fantastique ça marche ok, alors le premier, comme, thème ou section qu'on a de cet entretien c'est à propos de la culture populaire, ahem, excusez-moi je suis aussi un peu malade au moment, um, alors la question est quand il y avait moins de appareils, d’appareils électroniques pendant les années, les années soixante-dix. Alors comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisiez-vous et les autres étudiants pour s'amuser? Suzanne : Pour s’amuser? Bien, um j’ai fait partie de l’équipe de ballon ballé… Aila : Uh huh. Suzanne : de l’université, et même ??? (48s) un équipe de hockey mais c’est intramurale… Aila: Hum, hum. Suzanne : et naturellement, on fréquentaient le fameux Salon Bleu qu’on adoraient. C’était l’endroit idéale pour aller danser sur le campus. Aila : Ah! Ok. Suzanne : Le, l’edifice Marchand ??? (1.05) et, uh, c’est ce qu’on faisait dans nos temps libre, ni plus ni moins, ça c’était surtout le weekend. Aila : Oui. Suzanne : Naturellement. Et je faisais du jogging aussi et quand Canal Rideau était uh, uh, uh, disons l’hiver et qu’après on allait patiner sur le Canal Rideau régulièrement, moins 40, uh pas de problème. Aila : Um, cool. Est-ce que uh, les francophones et les anglophones, s’inscrivaient au mêmes course ou plus comme séparés? Suzanne : Bien, dans mon cas, j’ai pris des cours, je parlais pas l’anglais à l’époque car je ??? (1.45) donc je l’ai appris en faite, en résidence, par j’ai vécu quatre ans en résidence et um mes cours est en français uniquement et je prenais un cours de ??? (1.58) en anglais aussi mais c’est en français et aussi en espagnol, la troisième année est uniquement en espagnol, j’ai fait un bac en espagnol. Aila : Hmm. Suzanne : Et j’ai pas, j’ai pas utiliser en anglais en université sauf un cours d’anglais langue seconde. Aila : Et dans les, les clubs, et les équipes de sports, c’est… Suzanne : C’était um, dans l’équipe de ballon ballé et hockey, c’est en français. Aila : Ah ok. Suzanne : À ma connais, oui, puis uh, c’est sur ??? au Salon Bleu, mais là c’était uh les deux langues. Aila : Oh. Suzanne : Mais comme je vous ai dit, j’avais les difficultés avec l’anglais, donc étais immersé à ce moment-là en anglais. Aila : Intéressant. Ok hum quels sont les autres questions alors, que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre de Vietnam? Suzanne : À mon époque, à moins, honnêtement, je ne peux pas me souvenir. Peut-être si j’avais faite partie du conseil étudiant il y aurait eu, mais je n’ai rien vu, à ma connaissance. Pour moi personnellement parce que je n’étais pas très politisée dans ce instant-là, et je ne suis pas aujourd’hui non plus. Et donc, ??? (3.12) Pour moi, personnellement. Aila : Ah, cool ok. Um, dans les années soixante, les années, les artistes de rock et roll ont comme encouragé de diverses formes de, de protestation. Alors, c’est une question un peu plus à propos de vos parents, est-ce qu’ils considéraient le rock et roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme juste la musique? Suzanne : Juste la music. Et j’étais plus jeune à l’époque, naturellement. Aila : Ouais. Suzanne : Mais c’était juste la musique. Et on dansait dans le salon. Aila : Hmm, nous utilisons beaucoup le terme « culture de la fête » um pour, comme, décrire cette époque et faire référence aux activités sociales, alors comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus? Suzanne : Bien, moins à mon époque c’était l’ère de la disco. C’est ça vous entendez par fête, j’imagine la musique c’était l’ère de la disco, et on était en plein la dedans, puis souvent on sortait jeudi, vendredi, samedi, comme j’ai dit à la femme, au fameux Salon Bleu, sur la campus qu’il y avait même les gens de l’extérieur, de l’université Carleton, qui ? (4.36) aussi, sa prenait, il y avait un queue pour entrer là, c’était le « spot ». Aila : Ok, Je pense que j'ai, oh j’ai deux de plus de cette thème. Alors um, certain comme voix de la culture encourager la prise de drogues récréatives, alors est-ce que, savez vous si les drogues récréatives étaient vraiment disponibles sur campus pendant les années soixante-dix ou non? Suzanne : Bien, je présume que, qu’au moins quand j’étais là, honnêtement, non. C’est après, après de eu mon diplôme peut-être on voyait le marijuana, uh la cigarette marijuana, mais c’était pas, comme moi j’étais peut-être pas très évoluer à l’époque mais j’ai pas vu ça de, de ma vie étudiante pendant j’ai été aux études à l’université, c’est après. Aila : Et savez… Et savez-vous des uh, de prise des drogues psychédéliques, si ça, ça se passait beaucoup ou? Suzanne : Je n’ai aucune idée sur la vérité. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Aucune idée. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Psychédéliques ça c’est comme j’imagine des pilules là. Aila : Hum. Non, moi je sais pas vraiment, je sais que c'est une question qu'on a et que ça s'est passé, mais. Suzanne : Ma connais, comme j’ai dit, venons d’un type de place, arrivée à un gros université, c’était uh ça prenait l’évolution puis ??? (6.22) de plus les hommes, je n’ai aucun idée, le réponse est non. Aila : Okay. Alors, la deuxième thème qu’on à pour…, waouh, la deuxième thème c’est comme l’expérience féminine, alors le rôle des femmes, et tout ça. Alors, um, les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, que. À savoir que, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes au début des années mille neuf cent soixante, on cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Alors cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre, um, expérience sur le campus au début des années soixante? Suzanne : Mais j’étais pas là les années soixantes Aila : Ouais, je voulais dire soixante-dix. Suzanne : Um, non c’était n’aperçu pour moi à ce moment-là, cette vague, sur campus pour moi personnellement. Aila : Oui, vous euh, je lis les questions. Alors dans vos mots comme d'après vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada dans cette époque? Suzanne : Ben, d’après moi, um, on voyait beaucoup plus de femmes avoir accès à des cours à l’université, les cours qui étaient pas uh, disons de genre ingénieur, infermière, j’avais des amis qui étaient en des cours de sciences et uh, il y en avait même d’autres dans l’administration. Il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes mais aussi parce que l’université, je crois étaient plus accessibles avec des ??? (8.19) et bourses, d’après moi. Est-ce que ça répond à votre question? Aila : Oui, non, oui. Suzanne : À comparer disons, au, au, au genre ??? (8.29), parce que à l’époque c’était, avant cet époque de ??? et bourses, c’était ??? (8.37) mais après avec les … et bourses, ça était plus, plus commun. Une personne comme moi sera pas à l’université sans les … et bourses. Aila : Alors, dans les années soixante-dix, il y avait, ugh, y avait-t-il des programmes ou bien des département ou clubs de l’université où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptés, comparer à des autres? Suzanne : Um, comme j’ai dit, je pense peut-être dans des programmes axés plus vers, à l’époque, ingénieur, puis tout ça, il y avait peut-être moins de femmes dans ce instant là, ??? (9.19) cinquante ans. Aila : Ouais. Suzanne : Mai moi, j’ai pas vu ça au côté, uh, les arts parce que cet un mélange et il y avait probablement, je ne sais pas, plus de femmes en gimets, je suis pas certaine. Mais je pense dans les sciences pures, et les professions plus um, ingénierie uh, je sais pas trop quoi d’autre l’université offrait à l’époque, peut-être même médicine, je sais pas, je ne veux pas mentionner les choses que j’ai pas les fais étaient plus masculins que féminines. Aila : Les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcés dans les années soixante-dix qu'aujourd'hui, alors, um, en quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait- il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux étudiants masculins dans les salles de class ou bien des événements sociaux? Suzanne : Dans le salle de classe, moi j’ai rien vu de difference à ce niveau là. Mais ce qui est intéressant à souligner peut-être en parenthèses c’est que la résidence Stanton, où j’habitais, c’était seulement des femmes, ah que tel les filles, à cet époque-là, la première année surtout, je crois que c’est ma dernière année en 1977, si je me comprends, le premiers étages étaient les femmes et les derniers étages étaient les hommes. C’était pas mixes. Aila : Ah intéressant! Suzanne : On était séparés. Aila : Huh, cool, ok. Autre grand question, uh, les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu’ils appelaient la révolution de contre-culture, c’est-à-dire que votre génération s’est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Alors, dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu’ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? Suzanne : Comparer à mes parents, c’est un peu un question vaste. Aila : Ouais, comme. Suzanne : Dans mon famille, à l’époque, si là je comprends votre question, je suis la seule qui est aller à l’université, on était cinq enfants, à l’age d’aller à l’université. J’ai deux sœurs qui sont allées plus tard dans leurs vies mais j’étais la seule et ma mère m’a encourager parce que elle avait pas eu cette chance là. Um, mais je pense que je tourne autour de votre question là, je suis pas certains. Aila : Alors est qu'il avait des, non, je sais pas comment je vais dire, Ok, je recommence. Um. Donc Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la sexualité, la famille et les relations amoureuses, étaient, sont ils changés. Suzanne: Oh, uh, oui. Très changé. Aila : Hum, hum. Suzanne : Disons, um, uh, je sais pas si, comme, moi je, ben je étais plus à l’université à l’époque-là mais je me souviens ma mère était toujours … pour ses filles, surtout quand je lui ai dit, l’université était fini, mais quand je lui ai dit que moi et mon conjoint actuel ont aller demeurer ensemble, avant se marier, et c’était quand même en 1978, uh elle ne criait pas sur les toîts des maison. Tu sais, donc uh ça a changer de son point de vu là. Point de vue, uh, sexualité dans un sense et aussi l’autre sense, uh uh, les parents étaient, avaient pas vécu ça. Pêcher, en guillemets, mais elle pensait pas comme ça, mais … Aila : Hmm, ouais. Quelles étaient les formes principales comme d’injustice dans la société canadienne pendant ces années, ou lesquels que vous avez… oui. Suzanne : Tu, tu, tu veut dire comme les femmes importantes dans l’injustice? Aila : Ouais, comme les femmes les plus, que vous voyez le plus. Suzanne : Au point de vue politique, j’ai pas était personne très politiquer donc je ne peux pas nommer quelqu’un principalement. Je sais que dans les années quatre-vingts, uh, ça c’est, c’est sûr ??? (13.56), Monique Bégin jouait une rôle au niveau des femmes au Canada, parce qu’elle était si ministre la santé nationale ??? (14.03) de l’université après. Donc, c’est la seule femme à laquelle je pense, j’étais pas politiser donc… Aila : Et ce, sur comme plus, à l'université d'Ottawa est ce que vous avez vu beaucoup de comme racisme et d'autres choses comme ça ou? Suzanne : Non. Aila : Pas vraiment? Suzanne : Je n’ai rien vu de la sorte. Aila : Ah, fantastique. Suzanne : Et j’avais même une très bonne amie, à moins qui, qu’elle vit à Ottawa qui étais noire et uh, elle étais acceptée par tous le monde, mais il y avait pas beaucoup, le multicul-, la multiculturalisme à l’époque, um, commencer seulement, je crois, parce que j’avais pas beaucoup de gens dans ma classe, dans mes classes, qui étaient uh, de d’autres nationalités. Aila : Donc c’était plutôt des gens comme blanc qui étaient là, mais l’attitude vers les autres personnes était, n'eétait pas mauvaise. Suzanne : Non, oui. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Mais peut-être dans les autres classes, sciences, il y avait beaucoup plus de gens de d’autres nationalités qui étudiaient je sais pas, mais moi personnellement c’était, pas mal les blancs en général et uh des noms très ordinaires. Aila : Parfait! Ok! Alors les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l’introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l’avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes, et les femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années soixante-dix alors pensez-vous que c'est vrai cette ça phrase ou pas vraiment? Suzanne : J’oublie quand la pilule est venue en effet là, je pense les années soixante, je suis pas certain. Dans tous les cas, um comme je ai dit, on était pas très évoluer. Moi, je n’étais pas en tous cas à l’époque donc uh, je peux pas répondre à cette question de façon intelligente, mais oui on pouvait voir que l’amour s’est changer un peu entre les gars et les filles. Aila : Ok um, alors comment votre génération considérerait-elle comme la famille et le mariage, tout ça, des choses comme ça. Suzanne : Um, ben à cet époque là, je pensais pas à ça de tout. Je veux dire uh … (16 :36) seulement dix-neuf ans. Mais je me disais qu’une jour, oui, je voulais me marier, avoir des enfants et c’est que la chose à faire après avoir obtenu un diplôme, remarque. Et suffisante, c’Est surtout ça qui m’emporter. Ouais. Aila : Alors et à quoi ressembler comme les fréquentations à l'université, comme des choses comme ça? Suzanne : Bien, on a, on allait danser, au Salon bleu, et dans la compagne de beaucoup de gens avec qui on peut avoir du plaisir sans être attacher à uh, un gars en particulier. Aila : Ah, ok. Suzanne : Moi personnellement, dit, je veux pas, ben comment je dirais, je vais pas entrer les détails là-dedans, je vais laisser ma réponse comme ça. Aila : Ok parfait! Ok, alors j'ai une section qui nous reste, mais c'est à propos de la sexualité et le harcèlement. Alors, encore, si vous ne voulez pas répondre aux questions, ne répond pas, mais vous voulez que je continue et je demande des questions, c'est bien. Suzanne : Ça va. Aila : Ok parfait! Ok, aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel, alors dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires ont-elles surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes est-ce. Suzanne : J’ai aucun idée! De mon époque, je n’ai jamais rien entendu de femmes, il y a du en avoir mais j’ai jamais rien entendu de femmes et même de mes amis proches, que ça fait cinquante ans encore qu’on est amis, depuis l’université, d’abord étaient témoins d’agression ou même d’entendu des histoires à propos des agressions sexuelles. Aila : Hmm, alors c’était quelque chose… Suzanne : Non, c’était pas quelque chose qui était um, devant nous. Je me souviens il y avait de sécurité lorsque la fameuse Panda game, n’est pas bein. On aimait bien la Panda game parce qu’on pouvait aller uh, au stade, avec des, on apportait des gourds avec des boissons, qui n’étaient pas vraiment légal à faire, mais il y avait des gardiens tout partout. C’est un seul temps où je dirais j’ai vu la sécurité. Aila : Oui, mais en ce cas c’était la sécurité un peu plus pour, parce que les gens buvaient beaucoup et Suzanne : C’est ça. Aila : Ok, ok. Alors notre génération, comme la mienne est intéressée par le mouvement, le mouvement de l’amour libre, alors quel était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage? À ce temps. Suzanne : On ne parlait pas vraiment. On assume, mais on ne parlait pas. Um, mais ça se peut … (19:36) pense que ce qui était plus, à l’époque, plus uh, inquiétants pour les femmes, comme moi disons, et mes amis d’un jeune âge, c’était uh, d’avoir accès à les contraceptives, on sais pas même ça. Et de pas tomber enceinte aussi. Aila : Oui. Suzanne : C’est toujours là, ça. Aujourd’hui, vous avez tous les précautions au monde à instant là, les précautions étaient très um, comment je dirais bien, l’adjective, uh, il y pas aussi, il n’y avait autant de variété. Aila : C’était plus difficile de les Suzanne : Oui, de les trouver peut-être. En tout cas, moi c’Est-ce que je pense. Aila : Oui, oui, c'est difficile de savoir exactement tout ça. Suzanne : … (20 :28) très évoluer Aila : Une question de dernière, on va vite ici. Les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiètent, il des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, comme plus que vous et vos amis ou pas vraiment? Suzanne : Ben, plus ma mère, comme j’étais plus proche à ma mère. Ma mère était toujours peur qu’une de ses filles tombent enceinte avant de se marier. Elle avait tellement peur de ça. Um, donc elle n’était pas uh, … (21 :03) ça se passerait probablement avant mariage. Parce qu’elle était quand même une personne qui avait certains ouvertures d’esprit. Aila : Hum, alors c'est tous les questions que j'ai pour vous, alors merci pour les répondre. Suzanne : Ça me fait plaisir, j’aimerais ajouter un commentaire, je sais pas si tu veux l’enregistrer ou quoi mais ça me fait rien. Ce que j’ai retenu d’université en plus de mon diplôme, c’est que ça fait cinquante ans, justement, en Septembre 2023, que nous sommes, sert amis, que nous nous sommes rencontrés en résidence de l’université d’Ottawa, et en ce jour on est toujours amis, cinquante ans. Disons Aila : C'est incroyable! Suzanne : Je pense que je vais contacter le, j’essaye bien de contacter … (22 :01) c’est quarante ans, c’est quoi la publication de l’université, pour vous donner un entrevue avec un photo parce que, honnêtement, cinquante ans est un demi-siècle. C’est quelquechose extraordinaire et ous somme tous ``a Ottawa et nous sommes toujours amis. Aila : C’est incroyable, ça. Suzanne : Donc, si vous voulez suivre ça avec moi, alors je vais leur en parler. Aila : C'est intéressant. Suzanne : Et je te félicite, ton français, parce que j’ai enseigner le français seconde langue quelques années, et je comprends pour toi tu la garder et comme on dit en français, uh … (22 :43) expression, si on pratique on continue a améliorer. Aila : C'est exactement pour pourquoi je le fais encore à l'université. Suzanne : Bravo, je te lève mon chapeau. Aila : Merci beaucoup! Suzanne : Ça m’a fait plaisir de participer à votre projet. Aila : Merci beaucoup pour participer si c'est difficile de trouver assez de personnes, alors merci beaucoup. Transcription Translation Aila: (0:00) Okay, fantastic, it works okay, so the first, like, theme or section we have of this interview is about popular culture, ahem, excuse me I'm also a little sick at the moment, um, so the question is when there were fewer devices, electronic devices during the years, the seventies. So how was your free time structured, or what did you and the other students do for fun? Suzanne: For fun? Well, um I was on the ball team... Aila: Uh huh. Suzanne: From the university, and even ??? (48s) a field hockey team, but it's intramural... Aila: Uh huh. Suzanne: And naturally, we frequented the famous Salon Bleu, which we loved. It was the ideal place to go dancing on campus. Aila: Oh, okay. Suzanne: The, the Marchand Building??? (1.05) and, uh, that's what we did in our free time, no more, no less, that was mostly on weekends. Aila: Yes. Suzanne: Naturally. And I jogged too, and when the Rideau Canal was uh, uh, uh, let's say winter and then we went skating on the Rideau Canal regularly, minus 40, uh no problem. Aila: Um, cool. Did, uh, French and English speakers sign up for the same races, or more or less separately? Suzanne: Well, in my case, I took courses, I didn't speak English at the time because I ??? (1.45) so I learned it in fact, in residence, because I lived in residence for four years and um my courses are in French only and I took a ??? course in ??? (1.58) in English too but it's in French and also (2.00) in Spanish, the third year is only in Spanish, I did a bac in Spanish. Aila: Hmm. Suzanne: And I didn't, I didn't use English in university except for an ESL course. Aila: And in the, in the clubs, in the sports teams, it's... Suzanne: It was um, on the ball and field hockey team, it's in French. Aila: Ah ok. Suzanne: To my knowledge, yes, then uh, it's on ??? at Salon Bleu, but there it was uh both languages. Aila: Oh. Suzanne: But like I said, I had trouble with English, so I was immersed in English at the time. Aila: Interesting. Ok um what are the other questions then, what did the student body think of the Vietnam War? Suzanne: In my time, at least, honestly, I can't remember. Maybe if I'd been on the student council there would have been, but I didn't see anything, to my knowledge. For me personally, because I wasn't very political then, and I'm not today either. And so, ??? (3.12) For me personally. Aila: Ah, cool ok. Um, in the sixties, the years, rock and roll artists kind of encouraged various forms of, of protest. So, this is a question a little more about your parents, did they see rock and roll as a rebellion movement or as just the music? Suzanne: Just the music. And I was younger then, naturally. Aila: Yeah. Suzanne: But it was just the music. And we danced in the living room. Aila: Hmm, we use the term "party culture" a lot um (4.00) to, like, describe that era and refer to social activities, so how would you describe the party culture on campus? Suzanne: Well, less in my day it was the disco era. That's what you mean by party, I imagine the music was the disco era, and we were right in the middle of it, then often we'd go out Thursday, Friday, Saturday, as I said to the woman, to the famous Salon Bleu, on campus that there were even people from outside, from Carleton University, who... (4.36) also, it took, there was a line to get in there, it was the "spot". Aila: Okay, I think I've got, oh I've got two more of that theme. So um, certain as a voice of culture encourage recreational drug taking, so do you, do you know if recreational drugs were actually available on campus during the seventies or not? Suzanne: Well, I assume that, that at least when I was there, honestly, no. It's after, after I graduated maybe we saw marijuana, uh cigarette marijuana, but it wasn't, like I may not have been very evolved at the time but I didn't see that from, from my student life while I was studying at the university, it's after. Aila: And do you know... And do you know about the uh, taking of psychedelic drugs, if that was happening much or where? Suzanne: I have no idea. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: No idea. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: Psychedelics, that's like I'm imagining pills here. Aila: (6.00) Hmm. No, I don't really know, I know it's a question we've got and that it happened, but... Suzanne: I know, like I said, we come from a type of place, arrived at a big university, it was uh it took evolution then ??? (6.22) moreover men, I have no idea, the answer is no. Aila: Okay. So, the second theme we have for..., wow, the second theme is like the female experience, so the role of women, and all that. So, um, cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second-wave feminism, that. Namely, that, as part of the counter-culture movement, women in the early nineteen-sixties sought to break down gender barriers. So does this argument resonate with your, um, experience on campus in the early sixties? Suzanne: But I wasn't there in the sixties. Aila: Yeah, I meant seventies. Suzanne: Um, no, it wasn't clear to me at the time, that wave, on campus for me personally. Aila: Yes, you uh, I read the questions. So, in your words, what did feminism mean in Canada at that time? Suzanne: Well, in my opinion, um, we saw a lot more women having access to courses at university, courses that weren't uh, let's say like (8.00) engineering, nursing, I had friends who were in science courses and uh, there were even others in administration. There were a lot more women, but also because university, I think, was more accessible with ??? (8.19) and scholarships, in my opinion. Does that answer your question? Aila: Yes, no, yes. Suzanne: To compare, say, to, to, to the kind of ??? (8.29), because at the time it was, before this time of ??? et bourses, it was ??? (8.37) but then with the ... and scholarships, it was more, more common. A person like me wouldn't be at university without ... and scholarships. Aila: So, in the seventies, were there, ugh, were there programs or departments or clubs at the university where women were less present and less accepted, compared to others? Suzanne: Um, as I said, I think maybe in programs geared more towards, at the time, engineering and all that, there were maybe fewer women in that moment there, ??? (9.19) fifty years old. Aila: Yeah. Suzanne: But I didn't see that on the, uh, arts side because that's a mix and there were probably, I don't know, more women in gimets, I'm not sure. But I think in the pure sciences, and the professions more um, engineering uh, I don't really know what else the university offered at the time, maybe even medicine, I don't know, I don't want to mention the things I don't the doings were more masculine than feminine. Aila: Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the seventies than they are today, (10.00) so, um, how did being a woman translate into different treatment and expectations than male students in the classroom or at social events? Suzanne: In the classroom, I didn't see anything different in that respect. But what's interesting to point out, perhaps in parenthesis, is that the Stanton residence, where I lived, was women-only, ah such as girls, at that time, the first year especially, I think it was my last year in 1977, if I understand myself, the second floors were women and the top floors were men. It wasn't mixed. Aila: How interesting! Suzanne: We were separated. Aila: Huh, cool, okay. Another big question, uh, historians have written a lot about what they called the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. So, to what extent did the members of your social circle feel they had to mobilize for a fairer society and a better world? Suzanne: Comparing it to my parents, that's kind of a broad question. Aila: Yeah, like. Suzanne: In my family, at the time, if I understand your question, I was the only one who went to university, there were five of us at university age. I have two sisters who went later in life, but I was the only one and my mother encouraged me because she hadn't had the chance. Um, but I think I'm getting around to your question here, I'm not sure. Aila: So did he have any, no, I don't know how I'm going to say it, Ok, I'll start again. (12.00) Um. So to what extent did your generation think your parents' notions of gender, sexuality, family and relationships, were, are they changed. Suzanne: Oh, uh, yes. Very changed. Aila: Um, um. Suzanne: Let's say, um, uh, I don't know if, like, I, well I wasn't in university at the time but I remember my mother was always ... for her daughters, especially when I told her, university was over, but when I told her that me and my current partner went to live together, before getting married, and this was still in 1978, uh she wasn't yelling at the roof tops. You know, so uh it changed from her point of view there. Point of view, uh, sexuality in one sense and also the other sense, uh uh, the parents were, hadn't lived it. Fishing, in quotes, but she didn't think like that, but... Aila: Hmm, yeah. What were the main forms of injustice in Canadian society during those years, or which ones did you... yes. Suzanne: You, you, you mean like major women in injustice? Aila: Yeah, like the women you see the most. Suzanne: Politically speaking, I wasn't a very political person, so I can't name anyone mainly. I know that in the eighties, uh, that's for sure ??? (13.56), Monique Bégin played a role for women in Canada, because she was (14.00) such a national health minister ??? (14.03) of the university afterwards. So, that's the only woman I can think of, I wasn't politicized so... Aila: And this, about like more, at the University of Ottawa did you see a lot of like racism and stuff like that or? Suzanne: No. Aila: Not really? Suzanne: I haven't seen anything like that. Aila: Ah, fantastic. Suzanne: And I even had a very good friend, unless, she lives in Ottawa who was black and uh, she was accepted by everybody, but there wasn't a lot of, multicul-, multiculturalism back then, um, just starting, I think, because I didn't have a lot of people in my class, in my classes, who were uh, from other nationalities. Aila: So it was more like white people who were there, but the attitude towards other people was, wasn't bad. Suzanne: No, yes. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: But maybe in the other classes, in science, there were a lot more people of other nationalities studying, I don't know, but for me personally it was, quite a lot of white people in general and uh very ordinary names. Aila : Perfect! Ok! So, cultural historians have said that the introduction of the contraceptive pill, the legalization of abortion and the spread of free love ideology changed relationships between men and women and love practices in the early seventies, so do you think that's true or not? Suzanne: I forget when the pill actually came in, I think the sixties, I'm not sure. In any case, um, as I said, (16.00) we weren't very advanced. I wasn't at the time anyway, so uh, I can't answer that question intelligently, but yes, you could see that love changed a bit between guys and girls. Aila: Ok um, so how would your generation view like family and marriage, all that, things like that. Suzanne: Um, well back then, I didn't think about that at all. I mean uh ... (16:36) only nineteen. But I was thinking that one day, yeah, I wanted to get married, have kids and that's the thing to do after graduation, mind you. And that's enough, that's what really gets me. Yeah. Aila: So what's it like dating in college and stuff like that? Suzanne: Well, we were, we were going dancing, at the Blue Room, and in the company of a lot of people you can have fun with without being tied to uh, one guy in particular. Aila: Ah, okay. Suzanne: Personally, I don't want to, well how would I put it, I'm not going to go into details, I'll leave my answer like that. Aila: Perfect! Okay, so I've got one section left, but it's about sexuality and harassment. So, again, if you don't want to answer the questions, don't answer, but you want me to go ahead and ask questions, that's fine. Suzanne: That's fine. Aila: Perfect! Ok, today many universities have been forced to control sexual harassment, so to what extent have university authorities (18.00) monitored parties and social events to ensure the safety of women is. Suzanne: I have no idea! In my time, I've never heard anything from women, there must have been some, but I've never heard anything from women and even from my close friends, who we've been friends for fifty years now, since university, who first witnessed assault or even heard stories about sexual assault. Aila: Hmm, so that was something... Suzanne: No, it wasn't something that was um, in front of us. I remember there was security when the famous Panda game, isn't it. We liked the Panda game because we could go uh, to the stadium, with, we brought gourds with drinks, which weren't really legal to do, but there were guards everywhere. That's the only time I'd say I saw security. Aila: Yes, but in that case it was security a little more for, because people were drinking a lot and Suzanne: Right. Aila: Okay, okay. So our generation, like mine is interested in the movement, the free love movement, so what was the perception of premarital sex? At that time. Suzanne: We didn't really talk. We assumed, but we didn't talk. Um, but it could be ... (19:36) think that what was more, at the time, more uh, worrisome for women, like me let's say, and my friends at a young age, was uh, having access to contraceptives, we don't even know that. And not getting pregnant too. Aila: Yes. Suzanne: That's still there. Today, you have all the precautions in the world right now, the precautions (20.00) were very um, how should I put it, the adjective, uh, there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much variety. Aila: It was harder to find them. Suzanne: Yes, to find them maybe. At least, that's what I think. Aila: Yes, yes, it's hard to know exactly all that. Suzanne: ... (20:28) very evolving. Aila: One last question, we're going fast here. Do members of your parents' generation worry about premarital sex, like more than you and your friends, or not really? Suzanne: Well, more my mother, as I was closer to my mother. My mother was always afraid that one of her daughters would get pregnant before she got married. She was so afraid of that. Um, so she wasn't uh, ... (21:03) it would probably happen before marriage. Because she was a pretty open-minded person. Aila: Um, so those are all the questions I have for you, so thank you for answering them. Suzanne: It's my pleasure, I'd like to add a comment, I don't know if you want to record it or what, but I don't mind. What I've learned from university, in addition to my degree, is that it's been fifty years, in September 2023, that we've been friends, that we met in residence at the University of Ottawa, and to this day we're still friends, fifty years. Let's say Aila: That's incredible! Suzanne: I think I'm going to contact the, I'm trying to contact ... (22:01) it's forty years, what's the university publication, to give you an interview with a photo because, honestly, fifty years is half a century. It's an amazing thing and we're all still in Ottawa and we're still friends. Aila: That's amazing. Suzanne: So, if you want to follow this with me, then I'll tell them about it. Aila: That's interesting. Suzanne: And I congratulate you, your French, because I taught French as a second language for a few years, and I understand for you you keep it and as we say in French, uh ... (22:43) expression, si on pratique on continue a améliorer. Aila: That's exactly why I'm still doing it at university. Suzanne: Bravo, my hat's off to you. Aila: Thank you very much! Suzanne: It was a pleasure to take part in your project. Aila: Thank you very much for taking part. If it's hard to find enough people, then thank you very much. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gagnon, Suzanne (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa, in Ottawa, Canada, including francophones on campus and feminism on campus. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 23 minutes, 11 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interview Transcript - Life on Campus Interview with Christian Desjardins Date of Interview: Monday, October 23, 2022 Interview over zoom Anneke Tindall: “Hello, How are you today?” Christian Desjardins: “I’m fine thank you.” A.T. “That’s good, um, I’m going to start the recording. I’m going to be recording this interview if that’s okay with you.” C.D.: "Yes.” A.T.: “Alright. Alrighty, so today is our interview, as planned. Do you have any questions for me before we start or anything?” C.D.: “No, not really.” A.T.: “No, not really? Alrighty. So, um, I’ll start out with just like a little bit of general information about the years that you attended Ottawa and what program you were in, and just stuff like that.” C.D.: “Well, I joined the university of Ottawa in the fall of ‘74, my first year was a program in uh communications. And half of the class were on the University of Ottawa campus and the other half were at St. Paul, and I wasn't very thrilled with the program, so I switched to sociology for the second and third year and the bulk of my classes were at Pavillon Tabaret.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “I did one class at, uh, one in the summer, at Carleton university, it was a methods class that was not offered at the university of Ottawa during the summer period, so I had that class at Carleton.” A.T.: “Alright, and when you graduated what type of degree did you receive and what year did you graduate?” C.D.: “I graduated ‘77, so I had a major in sociology and a minor in communications.” A.T.: “Okay. Alrighty, um, so, we have a lot of questions about the counterculture revolution and events that happened in the 1970s. If you feel uncomfortable with any of the questions you don’t have to answer any of them. And we’ll start out with some of the counterculture revolution, so that’s kind of just like the differences in the generations between parents and children, so to what extent did you and your parents have, like, different views on dating and like genders and like anything that was pop culture?” C.D.: “Well, I wouldn’t say it’s pop culture, but one clash I had with my parents was around sexuality. Like they were from the era where you, you have sex when you get married and uh, obviously, I wasn’t so that was a friction point with my parents.” A.T: “Yeah, and so, how did that tie into the life on campus? Were most people on campus pretty open to the sexuality questions and the premarital sex, or were more people kind of hesitant about that?” C.D.: “Quite open. Well like, I was, I don’t know how familiar you are with the campus, but I was at Thompson, and um, in theory, it was one floor for girls, one floor for guys, by October, you could meet anyone anywhere, even in the restrooms, so it was pretty open.” A.T.: “Okay. Yeah, interesting. Um, what would you say the principal injustices around campus were in the 70s?” C.D.: “Nothing’s really striking.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “Nothing that really comes to the top of my mind.” A.T.: “Alright, we’ll move on to the free love movement, that was a big thing in the 70s, there was the legalization of abortion and the birth control pill, um, so just as a background, what was the dating life like on campus when you attended?” C.D.: “Well, the main place to meet was at Le Salon Bleu, it was the scoutout on Saturday evening, that was the palace to meet people, there was also La Chandelle, it was a restaurant on Rideau Street. It was also a good place, there were also a couple of bars, like, uh, I don’t remember the names, but The Hilloff, the Hilloff was a bar, where it was easy to meet other people.” A.T.: “And would you say most people were pretty open with their dating life, um, like, how many friends of yours did you know who were in relationships or who weren’t?” C.D.: “Half and half I would say.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “And the half that wasn’t in a relationship were in between relationships.” A.T.: “Yeah. *laughs* Alrighty, how did your generation look at love and marriage? I know you said they were pretty open about sexuality and stuff, did they have any specific opinions on marriage? Or anything like that?” C.D.: “I would say mostly were heading towards a very straight life. Like if I look at the people I went to school with, they all ended up being married, in the forward years after our graduation, uh, half of them were divorced five years after but uh, still the aim was to go in that direction.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “But it was still pretty straight.” A.T.: “Okay, And did they have any specific views on love in general? Were they hopeless romantics, or were they a little bit more hesitant about love?” C.D.: "No, I would say romantic would be a good qualification.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “They were too young to be cynical.” A.T.: *Laughs* “And were you yourself kind of a hopeless romantic, wanting to get married?” C.D.: “Well I mean, I met my wife at the University of Ottawa, so, obviously, I was looking forward to that direction.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “We met in a program that was taking place where you can work from a different province, and you were studying in a different program, you could be hired to uh, teach French in the junior high [schools] and uh, my wife and I were in two high schools that were in front of each other, like uh, both were in front of each other, she was at St. Pete’s and I was at St. Pat’s.” A.T.: “Okay, Interesting. And so, birth control and abortion were a really big thing in the 70s, um, were there any protests that you remember about birth control and abortion, and did they disrupt the campus life in any sort of way?” C.D.: “Uh, no but, as you can see, I was there starting in ‘74, so it was pretty much a done deal by then.” A.T.: “Yes, yeah. Yes, so there were no really like, um, like after the fact protests? Everyone was kind of just okay with it?” C.D.: “Yeah.” A.T.: “Alrighty. And did you or your friends have clashing views on birth control or abortion, or were you guys all on the same page?” C.D.: “Pretty much on the same page, but mind you, I was more in a group that was on the left side, being in sociology, or communications. But if I had been in law or civil engineering, I would have had people with different views, but in the group I was with, it was pretty much in favour of abortion.” A.T.: “Yeah, alright, and I know you said sexuality was a clash with your parents, did your parents have any views on abortion or birth control that clashed with yours?” C.D.: “Uh, no. It was more the fear that I would make a girl become pregnant, and it would wreck my life. That was more their views.” A.T.: “Yeah, okay. Alright and, um, so I know that in the 70s, we were kind of moving more progressively in including women in more faculties at the university and studies and stuff. Do you remember any distinctions in certain departments or faculties or programs where there were less women than men?” C.D.: “No, not in my program. It was pretty much fifty-fifty.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “Again, it’s also a matter of which program I was in, if I had been in civil engineering, well the ratio would have been different, but in sociology it was pretty much half and half.” A.T.: “Okay. And um, were there any clubs that were specifically non female, or any clubs or any student associations that would be really, distinctly male or female.” C.D.: “Not only that, we wouldn’t have been addressed if there weren’t any women there. *laughs*” A.T.: “*laughs* Alrighty, and did you ever notice any of your female colleagues being treated differently than you, whether that was in class, or um just in the society, did you notice any differences in the way that they were being treated?” C.D.: “The only difference I would say was in the radio station I was working at, uh, CHOR (?), there was a girl, she was the girl doing all the (jets?) programs and she was treated like a princess.” *laughs* “She was very nice and all the guys were going out of their way to please her.” *laughs* A.T.: “Alright, so no like, bad distinctions in between men and women?” C.D.: “Oh, no.” A.T.: “Okay, that’s really good. Yeah, and so um, honestly a lot of the other questions were just about free love and sexuality, but everyone seemed to be pretty open at that time, is what I’m getting from what you’ve told me.” C.D.: “Yes, and if you were to talk to people from ‘68 or ‘69, the views were very different, but by ‘74, it was pretty much over.” A.T.: “Yeah, okay. Um, and did your, so you said you were brought up catholic,” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “Did that have any impacts on how you viewed things or how you went around on campus?” C.D.: “No, not at all.” A.T.: “Not at all?” C.D.: “Part of that generation in Quebec pretty much stopped going to church, around ‘68, ‘69, so it was more the way I was raised, but it had no bearing on the way I was studying.” A.T.: “Okay, cool, and do you have any notable experiences on campus during the years that you were there?” C.D.: “Well, the radio, I spent two years working at the radio station, uh, so it was a place to meet other people, but also, the radio station then wanted to have an FM license at Carleton and the angle we were trying to give was to be multicultural. So we used to take programs with different groups like, Italian, Greek, Lebanese and all that, and each week we would bring those tapes to the cable station in Ottawa and they were broadcasting those tapes, so it was in a direction with people from other ethnic groups and different cultures, and not students from the campus, really from the community as such, and that’s really something that I enjoyed quite a lot and made the experience different. Usually when you’re at university you’re in asylum, you don’t know what’s happening outside of your school, but with that prompt of the radio station, we had experiences with people outside. It was cool.” A.T.: “Yeah, that’s really interesting. And so would you say the campus was multicultural during the time that you went there?” C.D.: “True.” A.T.: “Yes, okay.” C.D.: “True, and the fact that it was bilingual also, people were shifting from one language to the other one, that’s also different from studying elsewhere in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada.” A.T.: “Mhm, yeah. Alright, my last questions are just about safety on campus, were there any safety issues that you saw either for yourself, your friends, or for your fellow colleagues and stuff, were there any safety issues?” C.D.: “No, not at all, but again, when you’re around twenty, you don’t see it at all, so there might have been but I never paid any attention.” A.T.: “Okay. Alrighty, wat did your generation think about premarital sex, I know you said they were very open about sexuality and stuff, was premarital sex something that they were also open about? Or were they more hesitant?” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “Very open? Okay. Alright, so you said you went to McGill after Ottawa.” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T: “What years did you attend McGill?” C.D.: “Uh, ‘77 to ‘79.” A.T.: “Alright, and did you notice any differences between the campus of McGill and the campus of Ottawa?” C.D.: “Totally different, but largely because of the faculty I was in. Going from sociology to business school and at that time I was living with Diane already, it was more like going to work. I was not living on campus like I was in Ottawa, so I had to commute to go to the university. So basically it was like going to work, the only difference was that I was going to school, from nine to five, going back home, doing my homework and going back the next day. So no nothing at night at all, there was no beer, no fun, nothing at all, just straight school.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “So it was night and day with the experience in Ottawa, but I wouldn’t say it’s the university, I would say it’s more the program.” A.T.: “Okay. Yeah. And at McGill they were still pretty open about everything with birth control and abortion and stuff?” C.D.: “I would say, the people I was with were more on the right side, knowing that they were coming from a business or commerce background, and in the program, I was pretty much one of the very few that went there straight after a different program. Most people had left school and came back, so they tended to be five to ten years older than I was, so all of that combined to make them a little bit more conservative in their views.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “So pretty much by that time, everybody was in a relationship or with someone so it was more business, like you know, you go to school, you write something, and at the end of the day you go back to your wife or your husband and uh, there were very few social gatherings or parties. At the university of Ottawa almost every weekend we met up with some friends, but at McGill it wasn’t the case at all. There were maybe one or two parties per year, that was it.” A.T.: “Okay, and you said that you went to College Brébeuf before going to Ottawa.” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “What years did you attend that college and did you see any differences in the campus there?” C.D.: “Uh, ‘72-’74, um, not that different, I would say that the major difference was that it was more of a bourgeois type of environment. In fact, you had two crowds that went, you had either the students that paid their tuition fees, or the students that their parents paid for them. So you had a group of students that were going away on the weekend to ski resorts, or those who were going to get a job on the weekend to pay their tuition fees. So this made the group quite different, people would be within one group or with the other group. So it was more your home and financial situation that made a difference whether than your ethnic origin or your sex.” A.T.: “Okay. And then so, a little bit more on the pop culture side of stuff, with the legalization of birth control, abortion, and more openness towards sexuality, did you notice pop culture being more open to that? Were there more tv shows and music about that kind of stuff?” C.D.: “Well the music was at the forefront of the change, like the lyrics of the songs you had in the early 70s was quite open and that’s almost telling you what to do.” A.T.: “Yeah. And did you notice any differences in tv shows or movies? Were they being more open towards that stuff?” C.D.: “True, like uh, especially in the, either the American films, or the French films, they were much more open in terms of either explicit sex, or more lenient, [...] so that was a big influence in terms of what was presented. You would not have seen that five years before.” A.T.: “Okay. And so those are all the questions I have for you. Um, do you have any questions for me or would you like to add anything else to our interview?” C.D.: “The only impression I have is that the counterculture movement wasn't so prevalent in our lives, it was maybe more something scholars would study, but it was not something we were living on a daily basis.” A.T.: “Okay. Interesting. Well, thank you for meeting with me. It’s been a pleasure to interview you, and then later on, I do believe that our class is going to be creating a survey just for some more general data and once I get the link for that survey, I will send it to you. I am going to create a transcript of our interview and that’s just gonna go on the private database for our class that we’re creating and yeah.” C.D.: “Alright, sounds good.” A.T.: “Alright, thank you so much!” C.D.: “Thank you! Have a good day!” A.T.: “Have a good day.” C.D.: “Thanks, Bye.” A.T.: “Bye.” Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tindall, Anneke Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Desjardins, Christian Location The location of the interview Brossard, Québec Canada Transcription Translation French Translation: Transcription de l'entretien - Life on Campus Entretien avec Christian Desjardins Date de l'entretien : Lundi 23 octobre 2022 Interview sur zoom Anneke Tindall : "Bonjour, comment allez-vous aujourd'hui ?" Christian Desjardins : "Je vais bien, merci." A.T. : "C'est bien, euh, je vais commencer l'enregistrement. Je vais enregistrer cet entretien si vous êtes d'accord." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très bien. Très bien, aujourd'hui c'est notre entretien, comme prévu. Avez-vous des questions à me poser avant de commencer ?" C.D. : "Non, pas vraiment." A.T. : "Non, pas vraiment ? D'accord. Je vais donc commencer par vous donner quelques renseignements généraux sur les années pendant lesquelles vous avez fréquenté Ottawa, le programme auquel vous avez participé et d'autres choses du même genre. C.D. : "Eh bien, je suis entré à l'université d'Ottawa à l'automne 74, et ma première année était un programme de communication. La moitié des cours se déroulait sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa et l'autre moitié à St-Paul, et je n'étais pas très emballé par le programme, alors j'ai changé pour la sociologie pour la deuxième et la troisième année et la majorité de mes cours se déroulaient au Pavillon Tabaret." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "J'ai suivi un cours à, euh, un cours d'été à l'université de Carleton, c'était un cours de méthodologie qui n'était pas offert à l'université d'Ottawa pendant l'été, alors j'ai suivi ce cours à Carleton." A.T. : "D'accord, et quand vous avez obtenu votre diplôme, quel type de diplôme avez-vous reçu et en quelle année ?" C.D. : "J'ai été diplômé en 77, j'avais donc une majeure en sociologie et une mineure en communication." A.T. : "D'accord. Très bien, nous avons beaucoup de questions sur la révolution de la contre-culture et les événements qui se sont produits dans les années 1970. Si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise avec l'une de ces questions, vous n'êtes pas obligé d'y répondre. Nous allons commencer par la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire les différences entre les générations de parents et d'enfants. Dans quelle mesure vos parents et vous aviez-ils des points de vue différents sur les relations amoureuses, les genres et tout ce qui relevait de la culture pop ? C.D. : "Je ne dirais pas que c'est de la culture pop, mais l'un des conflits que j'ai eus avec mes parents concernait la sexualité. Ils étaient de l'époque où l'on avait des relations sexuelles quand on se mariait et, évidemment, ce n'était pas mon cas, donc c'était un point de friction avec mes parents." A.T : "Oui, et donc, comment cela se traduisait-il dans la vie sur le campus ? Est-ce que la plupart des gens sur le campus étaient assez ouverts aux questions de sexualité et aux relations sexuelles avant le mariage, ou est-ce qu'il y avait plus de gens qui hésitaient à ce sujet ?" C.D. : "Très ouverts. J'étais, je ne sais pas si vous connaissez bien le campus, mais j'étais à Thompson, et en théorie, c'était un étage pour les filles, un étage pour les garçons, en octobre, on pouvait rencontrer n'importe qui n'importe où, même dans les toilettes, donc c'était assez ouvert." A.T. : "D'accord. Oui, c'est intéressant. Hum, quelles étaient, selon vous, les principales injustices sur le campus dans les années 70 ?" C.D. : "Rien n'est vraiment frappant." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "Rien qui ne me vienne à l'esprit." A.T. : "Très bien, nous allons passer au mouvement de l'amour libre, c'était une grande chose dans les années 70, il y avait la légalisation de l'avortement et la pilule contraceptive, euh, donc juste pour le contexte, comment était la vie amoureuse sur le campus quand vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, le principal lieu de rencontre était Le Salon Bleu, c'était le scout le samedi soir, c'était le palais pour rencontrer des gens, il y avait aussi La Chandelle, c'était un restaurant sur la rue Rideau. C'était aussi un bon endroit, il y avait aussi quelques bars, comme, euh, je ne me souviens pas des noms, mais le Hilloff, le Hilloff était un bar, où il était facile de rencontrer d'autres personnes." A.T. : "Et diriez-vous que la plupart des gens étaient assez ouverts sur leur vie amoureuse, euh, comme, combien d'amis à vous connaissiez vous qui étaient en couple ou qui ne l'étaient pas ?" C.D. : "Moitié-moitié, je dirais." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Et la moitié qui n'était pas en couple était entre deux relations." A.T. : "Oui. *Très bien, comment votre génération voyait-elle l'amour et le mariage ? Je sais que tu as dit qu'ils étaient assez ouverts sur la sexualité et tout ça, est-ce qu'ils avaient des opinions spécifiques sur le mariage ? Ou quelque chose comme ça ?" C.D. : "Je dirais que la plupart d'entre eux se dirigeaient vers une vie très hétérosexuelle. Si je regarde les gens avec qui je suis allée à l'école, ils ont tous fini par se marier, dans les années qui ont suivi l'obtention de notre diplôme, euh, la moitié d'entre eux ont divorcé cinq ans plus tard mais euh, l'objectif était quand même d'aller dans cette direction." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Mais c'était quand même assez direct." A.T. : "D'accord. Et avaient-ils des opinions particulières sur l'amour en général ? Etaient-ils des romantiques invétérés, ou étaient-ils un peu plus hésitants sur l'amour ?" C.D. : "Non, je dirais que romantique serait une bonne qualification." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Ils étaient trop jeunes pour être cyniques." A.T. : *Rire* "Et vous-même, étiez-vous une sorte de romantique sans espoir, voulant vous marier ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, j'ai rencontré ma femme à l'Université d'Ottawa, donc, évidemment, je me réjouissais de cette orientation." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "Nous nous sommes rencontrés dans le cadre d'un programme qui permettait de travailler dans une autre province et d'être embauché pour enseigner le français dans les écoles secondaires de premier cycle, et ma femme et moi étions dans deux écoles secondaires qui se faisaient face, elle était à St. A.T. : "D'accord, intéressant. Et donc, le contrôle des naissances et l'avortement étaient des sujets très importants dans les années 70, euh, est-ce qu'il y a eu des manifestations dont vous vous souvenez à propos du contrôle des naissances et de l'avortement, et est-ce qu'elles ont perturbé la vie sur le campus d'une manière ou d'une autre ?" C.D. : "Euh, non mais, comme vous pouvez le voir, j'étais là à partir de 1974, donc c'était déjà une affaire réglée." A.T. : "Oui, oui. Oui, donc il n'y a pas eu de protestations après coup ? Tout le monde était d'accord avec ça ?" C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très bien. Et est-ce que vous ou vos amis aviez des opinions divergentes sur le contrôle des naissances ou l'avortement, ou étiez-vous tous sur la même longueur d'onde ?" C.D. : "Plutôt sur la même longueur d'onde, mais attention, j'étais plus dans un groupe qui était à gauche, en sociologie ou en communication. Mais si j'avais été en droit ou en génie civil, j'aurais eu des gens avec des opinions différentes, mais dans le groupe avec lequel j'étais, c'était plutôt en faveur de l'avortement." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord, et je sais que vous avez dit que la sexualité était en conflit avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents avaient des opinions sur l'avortement ou le contrôle des naissances qui étaient en conflit avec les vôtres ?" C.D. : "Euh, non. C'était plutôt la peur que je mette une fille enceinte et que cela détruise ma vie. C'était plus leur point de vue." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord. Je sais que dans les années 70, nous avons progressé dans l'inclusion des femmes dans un plus grand nombre de facultés à l'université, dans les études, etc. Vous souvenez-vous de distinctions dans certains départements, facultés ou programmes où il y avait moins de femmes que d'hommes ?" C.D. : "Non, pas dans mon programme. C'était à peu près moitié-moitié." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Encore une fois, c'est aussi une question de programme, si j'avais été en génie civil, le ratio aurait été différent, mais en sociologie, c'était plutôt moitié-moitié." A.T. : "D'accord. Et euh, est-ce qu'il y avait des clubs qui étaient spécifiquement non féminins, ou des clubs ou des associations d'étudiants qui étaient vraiment, distinctement masculins ou féminins." C.D. : "Non seulement cela, mais nous n'aurions pas été abordées s'il n'y avait pas eu de femmes. *rires*" A.T. : "*rires* Très bien, et avez-vous remarqué que certaines de vos collègues féminines étaient traitées différemment de vous, que ce soit en classe ou dans la société, avez-vous remarqué des différences dans la façon dont elles étaient traitées ?" C.D. : "La seule différence, je dirais, c'est que dans la station de radio où je travaillais, euh, CHOR ( ?), il y avait une fille, c'était la fille qui faisait tous les programmes (jets ?) et elle était traitée comme une princesse." *rires* "Elle était très gentille et tous les gars faisaient des pieds et des mains pour lui plaire. *rires* A.T. : "D'accord, donc pas de mauvaises distinctions entre les hommes et les femmes ?" C.D. : "Oh, non." A.T. : "D'accord, c'est très bien. Oui, et donc euh, honnêtement beaucoup d'autres questions portaient sur l'amour libre et la sexualité, mais tout le monde semblait être assez ouvert à cette époque, c'est ce que j'ai compris de ce que vous m'avez dit." C.D. : "Oui, et si vous parliez à des gens de 68 ou 69, les points de vue étaient très différents, mais en 74, c'était à peu près fini." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord. Hum, et est-ce que vous, vous avez dit que vous avez été élevé dans la religion catholique," C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Est-ce que cela a eu un impact sur votre façon de voir les choses ou de vous déplacer sur le campus ?" C.D. : "Non, pas du tout." A.T. : "Pas du tout ?" C.D. : "Une partie de cette génération au Québec a pratiquement cessé d'aller à l'église, vers 68, 69, donc c'était plus la façon dont j'ai été élevé, mais cela n'a pas eu d'incidence sur la façon dont j'étudiais." A.T. : "D'accord, cool, et avez-vous des expériences notables sur le campus pendant les années où vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, la radio, j'ai travaillé deux ans à la station de radio, euh, donc c'était un endroit pour rencontrer d'autres personnes, mais aussi, la station de radio voulait alors avoir une licence FM à Carleton et l'angle que nous essayions de donner était d'être multiculturel. Nous avions donc l'habitude d'enregistrer des programmes avec différents groupes comme les Italiens, les Grecs, les Libanais et tout le reste, et chaque semaine, nous apportions ces cassettes à la station câblée d'Ottawa qui les diffusait, ce qui nous permettait de rencontrer des personnes d'autres groupes ethniques et d'autres cultures, et pas seulement des étudiants du campus, mais aussi des membres de la communauté. D'habitude, quand on est à l'université, on est dans un asile, on ne sait pas ce qui se passe en dehors de l'école, mais avec cette station de radio, nous avons eu des expériences avec des gens de l'extérieur. C'était cool." A.T. : "Oui, c'est très intéressant. Et donc, diriez-vous que le campus était multiculturel à l'époque où vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "C'est vrai." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord." C.D. : "C'est vrai, et le fait que c'était bilingue aussi, les gens passaient d'une langue à l'autre, c'est aussi différent d'étudier ailleurs au Québec ou ailleurs au Canada." A.T. : "Mhm, oui. D'accord, mes dernières questions concernent la sécurité sur le campus, y a-t-il eu des problèmes de sécurité que vous avez vus, soit pour vous, soit pour vos amis, soit pour vos collègues, y a-t-il eu des problèmes de sécurité ?" C.D. : "Non, pas du tout, mais encore une fois, quand on a une vingtaine d'années, on ne le voit pas du tout, donc il y en a peut-être eu mais je n'y ai jamais prêté attention." A.T. : "D'accord. Je sais que tu as dit qu'ils étaient très ouverts sur la sexualité et tout ça, est-ce qu'ils étaient aussi ouverts sur le sexe avant le mariage ? Ou étaient-ils plus hésitants ?" C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très ouverts ? D'accord. D'accord, donc vous avez dit que vous êtes allé à McGill après Ottawa." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "En quelles années avez-vous étudié à McGill ?" C.D. : "Euh, de 77 à 79." A.T. : "D'accord, et avez-vous remarqué des différences entre le campus de McGill et celui d'Ottawa ?" C.D. : "Totalement différent, mais surtout à cause de la faculté dans laquelle je me trouvais. En passant de la sociologie à l'école de commerce, et à l'époque je vivais déjà avec Diane, c'était plus comme aller au travail. Je ne vivais pas sur le campus comme c'était le cas à Ottawa, et je devais donc faire la navette pour me rendre à l'université. En gros, c'était comme aller travailler, à la seule différence que j'allais à l'école de neuf à cinq heures, que je rentrais chez moi, que je faisais mes devoirs et que j'y retournais le lendemain. Il n'y avait donc rien le soir, pas de bière, pas d'amusement, rien du tout, juste l'école." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "C'était donc le jour et la nuit avec l'expérience à Ottawa, mais je ne dirais pas que c'est l'université, je dirais plutôt que c'est le programme." A.T. : "D'accord, oui. Et à McGill, ils étaient encore assez ouverts à propos du contrôle des naissances, de l'avortement, etc. C.D. : "Je dirais que les gens avec qui j'étais étaient plus du bon côté, sachant qu'ils venaient du monde des affaires ou du commerce, et dans le programme, j'étais l'un des rares à y être allé directement après un autre programme. La plupart des gens avaient quitté l'école et y étaient revenus, ils avaient donc tendance à avoir cinq à dix ans de plus que moi, ce qui les rendait un peu plus conservateurs dans leurs opinions." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "À cette époque, tout le monde était en couple ou avec quelqu'un, donc c'était plus professionnel, comme vous savez, vous allez à l'école, vous écrivez quelque chose, et à la fin de la journée vous retournez auprès de votre femme ou de votre mari et euh, il y avait très peu de rencontres sociales ou de fêtes. À l'université d'Ottawa, nous rencontrions des amis presque tous les week-ends, mais à McGill, ce n'était pas du tout le cas. Il y avait peut-être une ou deux fêtes par an, c'est tout". A.T. : "D'accord, et vous avez dit que vous étiez allé au Collège Brébeuf avant d'aller à Ottawa." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "En quelles années avez-vous fréquenté ce collège et avez-vous vu des différences dans le campus ?" C.D. : "Euh, 72-74, euh, pas si différent, je dirais que la principale différence était que c'était plus un environnement de type bourgeois. En fait, il y avait deux catégories d'étudiants, soit ceux qui payaient leurs frais de scolarité, soit ceux que leurs parents payaient pour eux. Il y avait donc un groupe d'étudiants qui partaient le week-end dans des stations de ski, ou ceux qui trouvaient un emploi le week-end pour payer leurs frais de scolarité. Le groupe était donc très différent, les gens se retrouvaient dans un groupe ou dans l'autre. C'est donc davantage la situation familiale et financière qui fait la différence que l'origine ethnique ou le sexe." A.T. : "D'accord. En ce qui concerne la culture pop, avec la légalisation du contrôle des naissances, de l'avortement et de l'ouverture à la sexualité, avez-vous remarqué que la culture pop était plus ouverte à ce sujet ? Y avait-il plus d'émissions de télévision et de musique sur ce genre de choses ?" C.D. : "La musique était à l'avant-garde de ce changement, les paroles des chansons du début des années 70 étaient très ouvertes et elles vous disaient presque quoi faire." A.T. : "Oui. Avez-vous remarqué des différences dans les émissions de télévision ou les films ? Étaient-ils plus ouverts à ce genre de choses ?" C.D. : "C'est vrai, comme euh, surtout dans les films américains ou français, ils étaient beaucoup plus ouverts en termes de sexe explicite, ou plus indulgents, [...] donc cela a eu une grande influence en termes de ce qui était présenté. Vous n'auriez pas vu cela cinq ans auparavant". A.T. : "D'accord. Voilà toutes les questions que j'avais à vous poser. Avez-vous d'autres questions à me poser ou souhaitez-vous ajouter quelque chose à notre entretien ?" C.D. : "La seule impression que j'ai, c'est que le mouvement de la contre-culture n'était pas très présent dans nos vies, c'était peut-être plus quelque chose que les universitaires étudiaient, mais ce n'était pas quelque chose que nous vivions au quotidien." A.T. : "D'accord, c'est intéressant. Merci d'avoir accepté de me rencontrer. Ce fut un plaisir de vous interviewer, et plus tard, je crois que notre classe va créer une enquête pour obtenir des données plus générales et dès que j'aurai le lien pour cette enquête, je vous l'enverrai. Je vais créer une transcription de notre entretien et cela ira dans la base de données privée de notre classe que nous sommes en train de créer. C.D. : "D'accord, ça me paraît bien." A.T. : "Très bien, merci beaucoup !" C.D. : "Merci ! Passez une bonne journée !" A.T. : "Bonne journée." C.D. : "Merci, Bye." A.T. : "Bye." Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20.07 minutes Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 20.07 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Desjardins, Christian (entrevue) Francophone