3 10 55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sunstrum, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed B, M Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (via phone call) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emily: Okay, so section 1 of the interview revolves around the impact of popular culture at the time. So, within the society that you were living in at the time what were electronics like during the 1970’s? How was your leisure time structured? Or what did most students at Oxford do for fun in the 1970s? MB: Well, of course there's no Internet. There's lots of sports and different clubs like, you know, drama club and I mean there was a sort of religious club. The Oxford University Debating Society was very famous. I didn't participate in that sort of organized stuff. We would go to the movies and concerts, lots of concerts. Live music and classical music, not rock music. Of course, the Beetles were really big at the time, they came from the place of England that I had gone to school. Actually, when I was in elementary school, just before I went off to boarding school, the Beetles were just starting out so that would be 1962 and they would come to the village fairs and sing. I would see the Beetles live; I was about 3 feet away. But then they became so big we could never afford to go to their concerts or anything like that. We didn’t watch TV or anything like that. Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? MB: There were lots of pubs at Oxford. But also, there's about 35 colleges at Oxford, there is no sort of university building, and each college would have its sort of bar and dining hall and library and stuff like that. Depending on your cluster of friends at the time you hang out at your college or their college, not many people wanted to hang out at the women’s colleges. The colleges were all single sex at the time except for one, it had just become coed. I was in one of the five women's colleges and there were 30odd men's colleges and some were more prestigious than others. Mine was the most prestigious of the women’s colleges and the men's colleges. There were about 5 or 6 really sort of really ancient but kind of like the place that Prime Ministers went to. So, people from my college tended to date people from those colleges. And there were lots of dances and balls and stuff. When I say balls, I mean you dressed up in black tie, sometimes white tie and women wore evening gowns. Emily: Okay, that’s cool. OK. So, you kind of talked a little bit about this. My next question is, did you attend any live music events during your university years? MB: Yes. So that would be. Chamber music, orchestral music, choral music. I participated in a choir. Just remembered. And we would later on we would, I started going into London. I lived quite a cosmopolitan life; I had never been into London until I started dating an American. And he was studying English, so he wanted to go to all the future he possibly could. So, we would go into London sometimes three times a week to go to, you know, West End theatre or opera or concerts of some sort, you know, classical concerts. Emily: OK, cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So, my next question is, we use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: Well, there's kind of two types. There's the very serious students, you know, sort of nerdy types. And then there's the people like Boris Johnson. Imagine Boris Johnson. Not the least bit atypical. And that goes back to probably the Middle Ages. They had this sort of heavy drinking and throwing people into the river and stuff like that. I'm sort of straddling the two because for one thing there were the proportion of women was very low. So, it's about seven guys to every woman in the university mostly. Especially the ones that went to the sort of prestigious colleges didn’t want to be getting in touch with a potential date and being told “oh sorry I have to study” “I have to finish my lab”. So there are lots of art colleges, you know, people could study art, history, whatever, but it wasn't part of the university. So, these colleges became known for providing the competition to female students. To the point (6:32) where, you know, I’d go to a party with my friends and people would say “where are you” they’d say and you would say “Oh I’m at college” which is very sort of neutral. And they pressed and would say “oh well which college” and then if you said, “well I’m going to ‘the college I went to’” and then they would start looking over your shoulder and say, “Oh I just saw Joe, I’ve got to go talk to him” and that was the end of that conversation. It was a whole, it was a very, somewhat divided sort of feeling. And it’s true, if you wanted to, you know, get your work done, you obviously had to take some time out. But it was definitely a party culture. Some of those young men would go to, they had a club which did not include women where they would go and eat fabulous food because the different colleges had wonderful chefs and then they would drink on ancient port which was in the college cellars. And start throwing oranges at 20 century portraits in the dining hall. You could imagine (8:14) it was not all prim and proper. By the way, King Charles was at Cambridge all this time so lots of people were going back and forth. This is probably too much information, I'm just remembering back how it was lots of fun, extremely creative, extremely stimulating intellectually, we met so many interesting people. So many interesting people would come and give lectures. We were just coming out of the deprivations of World War 2, about 25 years since the war had ended. It was a really really depressed society after that, lots of building going on and things started to settle down in the 70s. That’s around the time Britain on its second effort joined the European economic community(10:04), which they have since left. But it's hard to imagine going from really destroyed major towns close to where my family was living at the time, like Liverpool and Manchester. I mean Liverpool was just completely, chunks of it were flattened, burning. Emily: OK, so my next question is what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? MB: Well, I think initially, it was a very conservative place, Oxford. Lots of people's parents were sort of establishment figures, and you know, stockbrokers and bankers and stuff like that. And you know, my old father was an industrialist. And so, they were horrified by the threat of communism and stuff like that. So. I think initially it was sort of, well, let those guys get on with it, but they should be doing bad things. But we shouldn't intervene. But then very quickly, the student body, certainly as the defining thing that happened right before I went off to university was the movement in France (12:31) and Germany and in the Eastern European countries as trying to throw over government and become equitable and especially stop the war. So, there was a huge engagement in the May of 68 riots in France that sort of shut everything down and Germany and so on. Lots of radical movements. So, a wind has started to build at Oxford, and we actually did have some marches and demonstrations and we found out that the deans of the different colleges and also sort of leadership of the university were identifying students who might be good candidates for let's say MI5 or the spy agency and they were forwarding information to these services and saying “oh you might want to interview this person or that person” and that person would get invited to London to have a nice conversation. Of course, we were horrified that the university authorities were sending information to try to identify students who were good candidates without their permission or consent. So, that was the rallying cry at Oxford, of course some of those people went on to work with allies like the United States, which could of course get themselves involved in the war. The cold war was in full swing and that by the way was a terrifying thing that was always around us, sort of equivalent to the climate change crisis today. And a lot of the students were activists against nuclear arms, so people used to go on marches to you know, ban the bomb. My parents took me to visit a boarding school when they were looking for a good school to send me too and it was a very famous school and known for its academics and stuff like that and nice buildings, walking around like a college tour. And then my mother said, “but where are all the girls”, the teacher said, “they're in London at a ban the bomb march”. And it was a quaker school (15:47), run by quaker and they were pro-peace so my parents said “oh we can’t send our daughter there”. But yes the attitude of the Vietnam war, the circles that I ended up in, were very much against the war. But it took a while for me too, it was very hard to sort of when you’ve heard for years this very negative view of students, I mean in the family, of students to rise up and say we should do this, we shouldn’t do this. To sort of switch to the, when we went on marches there were TV cameras and I sort of said “oh what if my father sees me on TV” then I just stopped worrying about it. I don’t think he ever did. Emily: So, my next question for this section is Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Was Rock and Roll becoming popular within this society that you were living in? And if so, did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? MB: They probably thought it was rebellious, but I went to boarding school, I didn’t really live at home much after I was 10. I just saw them on Holidays but also sometimes I went to Holidays somewhere else. So, in a sense we got to make up our own minds, initially I didn’t like the Beetles at all. I would sort of run into them at those village fairs (17:45) and then, I remember, in the summer of 63’ or spring of 63’ we went to this village festival and they would crown the rose queen every year and it was usually a little girl like 14 or something like that and she had little page boys who were much younger and she was dressed in this sort of beautiful queen dress with a velvet cape. And the Beetles started setting up over where they had the stage and amps and stuff like that, and the crowd started to rush over there, and they trampled over the train of the rose queen. I was just horrified; I was very anti Beetles for a couple of years and after that I liked them. I remember for my birthday one year my parents took me to the Beetles movie “Help” that came out, it was pre-made I guess in Liverpool, so we went to go see it. So, in that sense they were supportive, “what movie would you like to see? Ok the Beetles, let's do that then.” But I didn’t have a radio, my sister who was a bit younger, acquired a portable radio, I should have mentioned, that’s probably more like the electronics of the era. But she would do all her homework, everything, going to bed at night, she had to have this radio on and people in the family did not like it. I couldn’t imagine having the radio going when you’re trying to work on something. So that’s another part of the evolution. Emily: OK. That's my next question is some youth culture. Voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were drugs available at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: I don’t know how widespread it was. I became aware of drugs when I became aware of Americans. Oxford has this program called road scholarships and students came from commonwealth countries and also the United States (20:26) and Canada but because the US had the biggest pool of students, they always had the largest number of scholarships. So, I became aware of these students who, for the most part, had already graduated, they already had their undergraduate and they were always like 3-4 years older than us, and they were very puerile young men of our cousins of our friends from school who didn’t like dating actual college students, these young men were completely open to that. But some of them had gotten into using drugs in the states and some of them had served in the forces in Vietnam and they would come back and say “we’ve got to end this” so there was quite a bit of it. I never bought it myself, but I did use it a few times. To be honest I’d be quite happy to use it but it made me paranoid that it was the drugs that was doing it, not me. That’s a side effect that some people experience. There was lots of booze. Emily: Right, ok. That’s all for the first section. So. Now we're moving on to the second section, which is the female experience. So, my main question for this section is culture. Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement. Women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Oxford campus during the 1970s? MB: Absolutely. can I just do a parenthesis and go back a bit Because this reminds me of the student movements and the the radicalism that was building up on other campuses, I would say partly triggered by the Vietnam War, which is all part of the Cold War. The thing that really changed my view happened between when I graduated high school and I've already been admitted to Oxford, and I spend a few months off and started at Oxford in the fall of 69’. There was a Czech student who burned themself to death and it was all about the, sorry I hope that’s not triggering for you Emily: No, that’s okay. MB: The communist Eastern European countries that were under the Soviet domination started to rise up (23:46) in Czechoslovakia in particular had what was called a Prague spring. They were moving more into representative democracy or trying too throughout 1968 and I was completely unaware of that and then this young man, that seemed like my age I actually don’t know how old he was, in January of 69’ so it’s before we went off to France and he burned himself to death. And from that moment, he was protesting the Soviet occupation which was still gradually wiping out the liberal experiment of the Prague spring. And that got me into thinking more about politics and economics as well and then I went to France and lived there for 9 months until university started. I was doing an internship in a chemical firm. And the student people that I started hanging around with were having a lot of activisms on the anniversary of the events of May, 68’ so May of 69’ they had general strikes and so on and it all succeeded forcing the President to resign. So that was also an activated moment that got me thinking about how politics work and I was a very nerdy science student. I was trying to go up to Oxford to read engineering and I was starting to get cold feet about engineering, so I ended up doing physics but by the time I became activated or engaged, I eventually took my high degree of math's and moved over into economics, politics and philosophy where I went into economics. But there was a feminist side to that, in that it was very unusual for women to even do pure science much less engineering. Only one other girl entered to do engineering (26:20) at the same time I did, but of course I dropped it and switched to physics and became the first woman in the history of Britain to become to head of the Engineers association of Britain and this was like 10 years ago. Thats how unequal things were for women at the time and of course it persisted and it's still persisting like we’ve had more women prime ministers for example. I was lucky that I went to an all-girls school so there was no negative thought through the school of doing science, other people would say things like “oh she should be careful because it's hard to be in a lab with just men”. But the other big thing we did during my time at Oxford, so 69’-74’, we gradually pushed and pushed, this was in between sort of major world type movements and individual actions like this idea to become a schoolteacher, so this middling thing at the university level, we pushed to get more colleges to become co-ed. Rach college had its own rules so it happened very gradually, I think most of them are co-ed now. But they would say things like, we had staff, cleaning staff that would come and make up people's rooms and the deans would say “we can't possibly have co-ed colleges because men and women would sleep together”. If the staff came in in the morning and found a man and woman in the same bed, then they would quit so they couldn’t keep the staff. After a bit somebody said, “well maybe we don’t need to go in the bedrooms” and then the answers were (29:13) “well the staff are there to make sure there aren't any young men in your room”, it took a while to get that changed. And the same thing was happening at the time in the US in the ivy league, I don’t know if the dorms at U of O might have been going through the same thing, whether or not they should have co-ed residences. One of our heroes for women and men by the way from American university was Angela Davis. She was a very left-wing activist in the US, and she was jailed at the time, and it was to do with having guns and trials and stuff like that and she became one of our heroes. One of our marches was about free Angela Davis, I think at one point she may have come later on when she was released in 72’, she came and lectured at Oxford. Emily: So, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. So how did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events? MB: I kind of alluded to a whole bunch, do you want me to repeat some of it? Emily: You don't have to repeat it all, but just a little bit of a summary would be good (31:06). MB: Yeah, ok. Well, all but one of the residential colleges of about 35 were single sex, the proportion of women on the university campus was very low and the anecdote about when you would go to social events, many of the men had gone to similar high schools and were the same age as us and in our same classes didn’t particularly want to date women confronting the same work load, deadlines and things that they were. So, we ended up drifting towards grad students or maybe Americans or Canadians. And we were very active on the topic of making things co-ed, you had to enroll in the college, its not like choosing your dorm after you’ve been accepted so if you were in a particiular college you would discover that it was very strict on keeping men and women separate. People used to do things like siging in and out of college, they had these gate hours that the staff had to monitor. So my college closed at 11 so you knew you had to be back inside by 11 o’clock. If you knew you had something that was going to end later, you could sign out a key, but it was really a big deal. What people would do is they would climb over the walls, sometimes injuring themselves, a couple people were killed, probably they were drunk, but they wanted to get in and out so that’s what they would do. Or they stayed out all night. Emily: So, my next question then is in the 1970s were there programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? MB: I'm not really aware of any. I know that some of my contemporaries, from school age contemporary, not a classmate but somebody I knew, went onto to become the first woman president of the Oxford debating union society but I can't even remember when that was (33:58), it happened after I left. But we certainly were aware of women who graduated from Oxford went onto political success in their respective country so like the first woman Prime Minister anywhere I think had gone to Oxford. Margaret Thatcher went to Oxford, actually the 3 woman PMs were all conservative interesting enough and they all went to Oxford. Emily: So that's it for the feminism section. My next question has to do with ideology and generational differences. So, historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? (35:51) MB: I mean that would be 100% what was going through my mind at the time. I started off as a very focused on a very technical career and I mean I have to say my father was an engineer so that was partly the only role model I had. But that meant lots of very serious studying and you didn’t do much reading around other things and then I became engaged in the particular incidents gradually. We weren’t really in our families you know, so it wasn’t a case of going home every evening or week or month or something and having to argue this stuff out with your parents. You could carry on with your own way of thinking, form your own ideas. I mean they were very interested; I don’t want to make it out that they were not interested in these kinds of things, but they weren’t particularly day to day observing whether you skipped classes or whatever. The good thing is you didn’t have to go to lectures there, the key thing is having tutorials one on one and working on a research project and preparing that with your tutor. I would start every single term planning to go to lectures because there were so many interesting ones but then I would get so much work on my plate (37:39), I had my social life and my activism that I didn’t have time to go to lectures. Because it wasn’t obligatory, that was the one thing that was sort of laid back. I did work in mini-shorts and stuff like that, flower child clothes and certainly the young conservative clubs where people like Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May and Liz Truss were making their mark. But they were very serious political wonks, so they weren’t going to go dressing up like flower children, they were all suits and ties and stuff like that. Of course, when we went to dances and balls, we were all elegantly dressed. Emily: OK, so then my next question is to what extent did your generation believe that your parents' notion about gender family dating were outdated? MB: Well, I guess I probably did feel that, I didn’t really confront them, but I did leave Britain right after I finished all the various bits of studying that I did there, and I didn’t go back for a decade. And it was really because I began to be aware, especially well young men, because road scholarships at that time were only open to men. By the way you couldn’t be married to accept a road scholarship. There were all kinds of romances that had originated from these ivy league universities or whatever universities were sending those. And they had to put off their plans for over a year if they wanted a scholarship but then they would meet their eventual wives and they would come over and then I realized these kind had a much more equal relationship than I thought other people, my parents, my aunts and uncles and so on, their relationship did not seem to be so equal and I thought wow there's a certain respect here, they could open their own banking account, I had to get my father to open my account for me. And, you know, I really thought the US (40:11), I was watching what was happening with water gate that was opening up, the protest against the Vietnam war and the water gate breaking and I don’t know if you’ve been looking but it was just the 50th anniversary recently, it was just amazing to see that unfolding and then when they moved to the US, it was actually the first year I was living there, was a combination of water gate and the resignation of Britain in 1974. It was just to me, the most dramatic thing that the government could be, I've seen that happen in France with the goal it 69’ and here it was France was even more socially stratified in gender imbalance society than Britain. But I thought wow you could have really a self-respecting career or life in this place. And I remember my mother saying to me, “but don’t you realize that all these men that you met who are American or Canadian at Oxford are the best of the best, the people that you'll find there are probably not very friendly or feminist or very welcoming to women” and at first I thought yes that’s a good point but then I thought well actually the young men that I met that were British were also supposed to be the best of the best and I was finding them wanting so I thought guess I'll try so I did. Of course, there's lots more nuance to American politics and British politics and French politics. Emily: So yeah, so, my next question is, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizen's needs? MB: In Britain? Emily: Yes, when you were in university in the 1970s MB: No, not at all, I felt that it was extremely trapped in ancient stereotypes, some of those things were very obvious in the single sex colleges and schools. The famous schools don’t accept co-ed students either. But the economy was clearly very biased towards men (42:51). I mean I quite enjoyed when I was still thinking I was going to be an engineer, my father eventually came around and thought it was kind of a neat thing so he started finding out if there was anything that could show yiung women what it might be like to be an engineer. So, like a winter program of two weeks at a university, sort of a lab or an internship or something, so he found a few things like that. I quite liked being the only, or one of two women in those programs, you know you get a lot of attention. And I don’t mean sexual attention, it was just the idea that “here they are doing all their stuff” and then I would stick up my hand say something, and they would all listen but then quite often just carry on what they were doing before. Anyway, it was yes. These things go in lurches I've of course discovered since then, those political changes and economic, I won't say equality, but justice shall we say. Emily: OK, so then, looking back at the 1970s, what aspects of your society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? (44:19) MB: Sorry what aspects of the time seemed out of whack? Emily: Yes, like when you were in university MB: Well, I think the gender imbalances and the fact that political action was concentrated in very small, tight, circles. I mean Bill Clinton was there when I was at Oxford, I think Hillary too. I didn’t know them though, but these people were all floating around, creating their own establishment. But to me watching the televised hearing of how I saw it was a very good exercise in democracy and seeing how lawyers, a lot of whose assistants were people I had been studying with, to being assistant to the prosecutors. Really opened things up but now of course you look back on that and sort of say “well you know, Jim Jordan holds hearings and it's just a political rant you know”. So, it's things lurch and sometimes they go back, 2 steps forward you hope, 1 and a half steps back. Emily: So, I have one more section for you. Um. And my first question is cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? MB: I'm not sure I agree with all of it but certainly I'm not aware of any of my little group of friends that was not on the pill (46:26). I think there were probably many that were Catholics and were not but in my circle. Everyone knew there was a particular place you could go for abortions; I don’t remember when it became legalized, I don’t think it was legal at the time in Britain, I don’t think it was legal until after I left, but there was a place you could go. I mean I never used it because the pill is pretty effective. And I think it did make us a little more, I suspect, I mean I don’t have any older brothers, but I suspect it made us a little more free and easy about dating. By the way we werent completely subject to exactly the same sort of para relationships and psychological abuse as others. Emily: Then what did dating look like on campus in the 1970s? MB: Well, you met people at parties, there's no internet, and we called them cattle market and that’s where people would look at you and go “oh my god you go to college, you’re a university student oh nah”. They preferred to date people that didn’t have other commitments, they wanted to be able to decide when to go on a date and not be told that they had to do a paper or a project or lab or something like that. You know people did pair up, they had their relationships and some of them got married right after university so that was in a sense very 1950’s conventional. I went through a whole phase “oh I'm never going to get married” and then I mean they guy I did marry; I'm still married to (49:02), I met him when I went to Alberta and I thought I was just moving there briefly but I've been here in Canada ever since, about 45 years ago, sort of a love at first sight paradigm. I certainly left Britain on my own initiative and a couple of guys from the States I had known and even dated at Oxford, they would say things like “I really like you why don’t we just get married” and I kind of said “No, I don’t want to get married”. So, I think that liberated me in a sense that not to get into a situation that would be more complicated than it needed to be. I had lots of issues with the whole 5 years before I lived in the US, I had constantly tried to get my visa extended. Emily: I feel like this kind of ties into a little bit of what you were saying just then but my last question is how did your generation look at family and marriage? MB: Many of us were quite determined not to get married and then later on even when we had got married not to have children. I think you still hear some of that but of course it happened so we kind of changed that for the world. And by the way, I don’t know if this is part of your thinking at all but, gay life at Oxford was extremely well established (51:16) and quite common and that goes back centuries and that’s because it was all male for so long. And profs could not be married so they kept their families outside the city limits or outside the limits of the university jurisdiction but that was only in late 19th century. But you could think people like the guy who wrote “Alice in Wonderland” he was a very typical Oxford prof. And it was I wouldn’t say celebrated, gayness, but it was definitely, and the other thing is because it was World War 2 a lot of the school teachers and I, which happened to be in Oxford had no boyfriends or there weren’t any young men around or maybe they weren’t interested in young men. And so, it was perfectly normal for two women to be living together and my math teacher and gym teacher and on and on and on and you were totally not bothered by it. When I was in my upper classes in high school, I started going to clubs and parties at Oxford events and you'd see certain young men and you’d say, “oh I kind of like that guy” and then a bit later you’d realize “oh he's with this other guy, that’s fine”. It was legalized in Britain in 1968 (53:18) so right away from the time I was at boarding school it was illegal and the when I went to university it was legal. It was certainly a very open... Emily: It was accepted MB: Ya, accepted, that’s a better way of putting it because I'm sure there was a lot of prejudice elsewhere in Britain and probably Cambridge and some of the other universities were very much welcoming and supportive. Emily: Well, that is all the questions that I have for you today. MB: I hope I wasn't too much of a fire hose Emily: No that’s okay, thank you so much for your time (55:17) Transcription Translation Emily : D'accord, la première partie de l'entretien porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire de l'époque. Au sein de la société dans laquelle vous viviez à l'époque, à quoi ressemblait l'électronique dans les années 1970 ? Comment était structuré votre temps libre ? Ou que faisaient la plupart des étudiants d'Oxford pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? MB : Bien sûr, il n'y avait pas d'Internet. Il y avait beaucoup de sports et différents clubs comme, vous savez, le club de théâtre et je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de club religieux. La Oxford University Debating Society était très célèbre. Je ne participais pas à ce genre d'activités organisées. Nous allions au cinéma et à des concerts, beaucoup de concerts. De la musique live et de la musique classique, pas de la musique rock. Bien sûr, les Beetles étaient très populaires à l'époque, ils venaient de la région d'Angleterre où j'étais allé à l'école. En fait, lorsque j'étais à l'école primaire, juste avant d'aller à l'internat, les Beetles commençaient à peine, c'était en 1962, et ils venaient chanter dans les foires de village. J'ai vu les Beetles en concert ; j'étais à un mètre de distance. Mais ils sont devenus si importants que nous n'avons jamais pu nous permettre d'aller à leurs concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre. Nous ne regardions pas la télévision. Emily : Oui, ça a l'air bien. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? MB : Il y avait beaucoup de pubs à Oxford. Mais il y a aussi 35 collèges à Oxford, il n'y a pas de bâtiment universitaire, et chaque collège a son bar, son réfectoire, sa bibliothèque, etc. En fonction de votre groupe d'amis à ce moment-là, vous fréquentez votre collège ou leur collège, mais peu de gens voulaient fréquenter les collèges de femmes. Les universités étaient toutes unisexes à l'époque, à l'exception d'une seule, qui venait de devenir mixte. J'étais dans l'une des cinq universités féminines et il y avait une trentaine d'universités masculines, dont certaines étaient plus prestigieuses que d'autres. La mienne était la plus prestigieuse des universités féminines et masculines. Il y en avait 5 ou 6 qui étaient vraiment très anciens, mais qui ressemblaient un peu à l'endroit où allaient les Premiers ministres. Les gens de mon collège avaient donc tendance à sortir avec des gens de ces collèges. Il y avait beaucoup de danses, de bals et d'autres choses. Quand je parle de bals, je veux dire qu'on s'habillait en cravate noire, parfois en cravate blanche et les femmes portaient des robes de soirée. Emily : D'accord, c'est cool. D'ACCORD. Vous en avez un peu parlé. Ma prochaine question est la suivante : avez-vous assisté à des événements musicaux pendant vos années d'université ? MB : Oui. Je dirais donc que c'est le cas. Musique de chambre, musique orchestrale, musique chorale. J'ai participé à une chorale. Je m'en souviens. Plus tard, j'ai commencé à aller à Londres. Je vivais une vie assez cosmopolite ; je n'étais jamais allée à Londres jusqu'à ce que je sorte avec un Américain. Et comme il étudiait l'anglais, il voulait aller dans tous les futurs qu'il pouvait. Nous allions donc à Londres parfois trois fois par semaine pour aller au théâtre du West End, à l'opéra ou à des concerts classiques. Emily : OK, cool. Oui, ça a l'air cool. Ma question suivante est la suivante : nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête " pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Oxford dans les années 1970 ? MB : Eh bien, il y a deux types d'étudiants. Il y a les étudiants très sérieux, les intellos. Et puis il y a les gens comme Boris Johnson. Imaginez Boris Johnson. Pas le moins du monde atypique. Et cela remonte probablement au Moyen-Âge. Les gens buvaient beaucoup, jetaient les gens dans les rivières, etc. Je suis en quelque sorte à cheval entre les deux parce que, d'une part, la proportion de femmes était très faible. Il y a environ sept hommes pour une femme à l'université. En particulier, celles qui allaient dans des universités prestigieuses ne voulaient pas entrer en contact avec une fille potentielle et se faire dire "oh, désolé, je dois étudier" "je dois finir mon labo". Il existe donc de nombreuses écoles d'art, où l'on peut étudier l'art, l'histoire ou autre chose, mais qui ne font pas partie de l'université. C'est ainsi que ces écoles sont devenues célèbres pour la concurrence qu'elles offraient aux étudiantes. À tel point que, lorsque j'allais à une fête avec mes amis, les gens me demandaient "Où es-tu ?" et vous répondiez "Oh, je suis à l'université", ce qui est tout à fait neutre. Ils insistaient et disaient "Oh, quelle université" et si vous répondiez "Eh bien, je vais à l'université où je suis allé", ils commençaient à regarder par-dessus votre épaule et disaient "Oh, je viens de voir Joe, il faut que j'aille lui parler" et c'était la fin de la conversation. C'était un sentiment très, très divisé. Et c'est vrai, si vous vouliez, vous savez, faire votre travail, vous deviez évidemment prendre un peu de temps pour vous. Mais c'était vraiment une culture de la fête. Certains de ces jeunes hommes se rendaient dans un club qui n'incluait pas de femmes, où ils allaient manger des plats fabuleux parce que les différents collèges avaient de merveilleux chefs, puis ils buvaient du porto ancien qui se trouvait dans les caves des collèges. Et ils commençaient à jeter des oranges sur des portraits du 20ème siècle dans le réfectoire. Vous pouvez imaginer que tout n'était pas rose et correct. D'ailleurs, le roi Charles était à Cambridge pendant tout ce temps, si bien que beaucoup de gens allaient et venaient. C'est probablement trop d'informations, mais je me souviens simplement que c'était très amusant, très créatif, très stimulant intellectuellement, et que nous avons rencontré tant de gens intéressants. Nous avons rencontré tant de personnes intéressantes. Tant de personnes intéressantes venaient donner des conférences. Nous sortions tout juste des privations de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, environ 25 ans après la fin de la guerre. La société était vraiment très déprimée après cela, il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours et les choses ont commencé à se calmer dans les années 70. C'est à cette époque que la Grande-Bretagne, pour son deuxième effort, a rejoint la Communauté économique européenne, qu'elle a quittée depuis. Mais il est difficile d'imaginer la destruction des grandes villes proches de l'endroit où ma famille vivait à l'époque, comme Liverpool et Manchester. Je veux dire que Liverpool a été complètement détruite, des pans entiers de la ville ont été rasés, brûlés. Emily : D'accord, alors ma question suivante est : que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? MB : Eh bien, je pense qu'au départ, c'était un endroit très conservateur, Oxford. Les parents de beaucoup de gens étaient des figures de l'establishment, des agents de change, des banquiers, etc. Et vous savez, mon père était un industriel. Ils étaient donc horrifiés par la menace du communisme et ce genre de choses. Donc. Je pense qu'au départ, c'était un peu comme si on laissait ces gens faire ce qu'ils voulaient, mais qu'ils devaient faire de mauvaises choses. Mais nous ne devrions pas intervenir. Mais très vite, le corps étudiant, certainement parce que la chose déterminante qui s'est produite juste avant que je n'entre à l'université a été le mouvement en France et en Allemagne et dans les pays d'Europe de l'Est pour essayer de se débarrasser du gouvernement et de devenir équitable, et surtout d'arrêter la guerre. Les émeutes de mai 68 en France, qui ont en quelque sorte tout bloqué, ainsi qu'en Allemagne et dans d'autres pays, ont été l'occasion d'un engagement considérable. Beaucoup de mouvements radicaux. Nous avons découvert que les doyens des différents collèges et la direction de l'université identifiaient les étudiants susceptibles d'être de bons candidats pour le MI5 ou l'agence d'espionnage, par exemple, et qu'ils transmettaient des informations à ces services en disant : "Oh, vous voudrez peut-être interviewer telle ou telle personne" et que cette personne était invitée à Londres pour avoir une conversation agréable. Bien sûr, nous étions horrifiés que les autorités universitaires envoient des informations pour tenter d'identifier les étudiants qui étaient de bons candidats sans leur permission ou leur consentement. C'était donc le cri de ralliement à Oxford, et bien sûr, certaines de ces personnes sont allées travailler avec des alliés comme les États-Unis, qui pouvaient bien sûr s'impliquer dans la guerre. La guerre froide battait son plein et c'était d'ailleurs une chose terrifiante qui nous entourait en permanence, une sorte d'équivalent de la crise du changement climatique aujourd'hui. Beaucoup d'étudiants militaient contre l'armement nucléaire et organisaient des marches pour interdire la bombe. Mes parents m'ont emmenée visiter un internat lorsqu'ils cherchaient une bonne école où m'envoyer. Il s'agissait d'une école très réputée, connue pour ses études et d'autres choses du même genre, avec de beaux bâtiments, où l'on se promenait comme dans une visite d'université. Et puis ma mère a dit, "mais où sont toutes les filles", le professeur a répondu, "elles sont à Londres à une marche pour l'interdiction des bombes". C'était une école de quakers, dirigée par des quakers et ils étaient pour la paix, alors mes parents ont dit "oh, nous ne pouvons pas envoyer notre fille là-bas". Mais oui, l'attitude à l'égard de la guerre du Viêt Nam, les cercles dans lesquels je me suis retrouvée, étaient très opposés à la guerre. Mais il m'a fallu un certain temps pour que, après avoir entendu pendant des années cette vision très négative des étudiants, je veux dire dans la famille, les étudiants se lèvent et disent que nous devrions faire ceci, que nous ne devrions pas faire cela. Lorsque nous avons participé à des marches, il y avait des caméras de télévision et je me suis dit "Oh, et si mon père me voyait à la télévision", puis j'ai cessé de m'en préoccuper. Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais fait. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B, M (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonal about the life on campus of Oxford University in the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 1970s Abortion Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Hippies Oxford, England Physics Popular Music Protest Queer Sexuality Student Life The Pill Vietnam Person An individual. Birth Date 1956 Birthplace Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Schools Attended Marianopolis College, 1973-74 University of Ottawa, 1974-76, 1976-77 Degree CEGEP BA Career professional Occupation Lawyer Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K, B. Type The nature or genre of the resource person Person An individual. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa 1971-75 D'Youville College 1988-90 University of British Columbia 1993-2001 Degree MA PhD Career professional Occupation Nursing 1975-2016 Ethnicity French English Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource L. , F. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Catholic grade schools Immaculata High School University of Ottawa Degree BA Career professional Occupation Nurse Ethnicity Swiss Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Paradis, Philippe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Palmer, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis So for the first question, cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa has a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis So the first question would be there were less electronics in Canada in the 70s. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Like none. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis So how was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 70s? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Well, we went to the pub after school. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer I'm sure they still do that now, but there was. 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer We went to my father, used to laugh. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer We went to the library every night and after the library closed that cause I was studying nursing. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer So we were at the medical library, we would go to the the Albion, which I don't think is there anymore. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer It's gone and probably went there almost every night. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer There were dances, there were. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer We ran the School of Nursing on. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.140 Liz Palmer We were in the and at that point we were at the building where engineering is now. 0:1:44.750 --> 0:1:50.940 Liz Palmer Which is probably an old building to you, but for us it was brand new and every Friday we ran a pub. 0:1:51.530 --> 0:1:56.410 Liz Palmer One week it was by nursing and the other week it was by the engineering students. 0:1:57.150 --> 0:2:3.220 Liz Palmer So there were lots of pubs, parties, lots of get togethers. 0:2:3.750 --> 0:2:7.180 Liz Palmer Umm, that kind of thing. 0:2:7.190 --> 0:2:9.700 Liz Palmer And there was some art groups. 0:2:10.230 --> 0:2:12.800 Liz Palmer There were readings. 0:2:13.470 --> 0:2:14.230 Liz Palmer There were. 0:2:16.730 --> 0:2:18.0 Liz Palmer Poetry readings auto. 0:2:18.10 --> 0:2:21.770 Liz Palmer You had a lot of that kind of stuff and they used to go to all those sorts of things, yeah. 0:2:22.820 --> 0:2:25.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So like a lot of obviously in person activities. 0:2:25.250 --> 0:2:27.100 Liz Palmer All it was all in person. 0:2:32.10 --> 0:2:36.980 Philippe Alain Paradis And so you mentioned pubs, so that sort of answers the question. 0:2:36.990 --> 0:2:40.260 Philippe Alain Paradis What we're the most popular hangout spots on and off campus. 0:2:41.770 --> 0:2:51.420 Liz Palmer It would be the Albion for us and and then the pub that we ran, the weekly pub that ran at the at the at the build. 0:2:51.430 --> 0:2:54.860 Liz Palmer I forget what the name of the building is now, but it was it's. 0:2:55.70 --> 0:2:56.620 Liz Palmer It's the engineering building now. 0:2:56.710 --> 0:3:2.300 Liz Palmer They had a big common room there and that's that's that was every Friday night through the through the whole year. 0:3:3.520 --> 0:3:3.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Nice. 0:3:4.620 --> 0:3:7.750 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you attend any live music events during the university years? 0:3:8.990 --> 0:3:12.100 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, a lot of those things that we went to had live bands. 0:3:13.300 --> 0:3:17.10 Liz Palmer Some of them had DJ's, umm. 0:3:17.210 --> 0:3:18.920 Liz Palmer There was no rap in those days. 0:3:18.930 --> 0:3:23.790 Liz Palmer Everything was disco in the 70s, so yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:3:25.380 --> 0:3:32.280 Liz Palmer Ohh, looky, Looky Boo was a big deal on Sussex and it was alternative music at the time. 0:3:33.170 --> 0:3:37.720 Liz Palmer Umm, it would have been folk music, different things like that. 0:3:38.590 --> 0:3:42.470 Liz Palmer Different groups would have come into that smaller area. 0:3:42.840 --> 0:3:44.620 Liz Palmer Bruce Coburn in different people like that. 0:3:45.650 --> 0:3:47.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Were there a lot of rock bands back then? 0:3:47.970 --> 0:3:49.120 Philippe Alain Paradis At these places. 0:3:49.100 --> 0:3:51.710 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, there were some that wasn't really. 0:3:51.720 --> 0:3:54.80 Liz Palmer I I liked a lot of different music but. 0:3:56.250 --> 0:4:3.770 Liz Palmer Trying to think of there were quite a number of Ottawa that five man electrical band I think was one of them. 0:4:5.140 --> 0:4:7.340 Philippe Alain Paradis So disco is the big one. 0:4:7.840 --> 0:4:10.30 Liz Palmer Disco was the big thing at that time. 0:4:10.40 --> 0:4:18.40 Liz Palmer Probably more into the mid 70s, but I started in started Ottawa U. 0:4:18.50 --> 0:4:21.420 Liz Palmer Guess it was September of 1970, yeah. 0:4:26.990 --> 0:4:29.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa said earlier auto you auto was the bilingual institution. 0:4:30.370 --> 0:4:34.0 Philippe Alain Paradis How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? 0:4:39.700 --> 0:4:40.640 Liz Palmer Yep, Yep. 0:4:34.10 --> 0:4:40.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? Yeah. 0:4:41.860 --> 0:4:43.550 Liz Palmer I wasn't a big club person. 0:4:44.310 --> 0:4:46.980 Liz Palmer The nursing program was very busy. 0:4:48.510 --> 0:4:50.930 Liz Palmer We had lots of classes in. 0:4:50.940 --> 0:4:53.320 Liz Palmer Mike was interesting in my class Ottawa. 0:4:53.330 --> 0:5:1.930 Liz Palmer You the first year there were, I would say, 120 students, 130 students maybe. 0:5:1.940 --> 0:5:2.590 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:5:2.680 --> 0:5:6.440 Liz Palmer They seem to be a lot out, I'd say more than half of them were French speaking. 0:5:7.260 --> 0:5:11.430 Liz Palmer They had very little, if any, English. 0:5:11.580 --> 0:5:13.670 Liz Palmer Most of them came to Ottawa. 0:5:13.680 --> 0:5:17.550 Liz Palmer Because they were told they could take their course in French. 0:5:18.120 --> 0:5:25.600 Liz Palmer However, the nursing program at that time was very new in on Canada and especially on Ontario. 0:5:25.870 --> 0:5:30.910 Liz Palmer So they're all the teachers came from the US or had been trained in the US so they all spoke English. 0:5:31.640 --> 0:5:37.730 Liz Palmer So all the nursing programs were done in English, but they could do all their other classes in French. 0:5:38.260 --> 0:5:45.630 Liz Palmer So we lost, I would say at least 1/3 of the students after first year because they couldn't, they couldn't. 0:5:46.220 --> 0:5:52.870 Liz Palmer They weren't good enough in English to to pass to sit through the classes, so I don't know where they went. 0:5:52.880 --> 0:5:57.330 Liz Palmer They may have gone to to Montreal or to Sherbrooke, or I don't know where they went. 0:5:58.110 --> 0:6:2.320 Liz Palmer But the English, the nursing program was only offered in English. 0:6:2.330 --> 0:6:5.170 Liz Palmer I'm I'm not sure, but I think it still is even to this day. 0:6:6.400 --> 0:6:7.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Huh, that's interesting. 0:6:9.30 --> 0:6:10.590 Philippe Alain Paradis They were really just French. 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:12.60 Philippe Alain Paradis There weren't as many bilingual people? 0:6:12.660 --> 0:6:21.160 Liz Palmer Well, the bilingual students were fine, but there were a large number of French only students, and they came from all over Quebec. 0:6:21.420 --> 0:6:24.830 Liz Palmer Small a lot of them came from small towns, northern Ontario. 0:6:25.820 --> 0:6:29.500 Liz Palmer Some of them came from New Brunswick and and they only spoke French. 0:6:30.650 --> 0:6:35.460 Liz Palmer So, but anyone who was bilingual and and had enough English. 0:6:35.940 --> 0:6:36.290 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:6:36.300 --> 0:6:44.240 Liz Palmer A number of my friends were French Canadian and they but they were bilingual and they had enough of English that they could. 0:6:44.250 --> 0:6:51.120 Liz Palmer They could handle the course load, so that was fine, but if you were totally French, it was very difficult. 0:6:53.60 --> 0:7:1.240 Philippe Alain Paradis You might not know this cause it's like a really specific question, but do you have any information on if anglophones and francophones dated each other during the 1970s? 0:7:1.710 --> 0:7:2.820 Liz Palmer Oh, absolutely. 0:7:3.300 --> 0:7:3.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:7:3.210 --> 0:7:4.330 Liz Palmer Absolutely. Sure. 0:7:5.100 --> 0:7:5.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:7:7.70 --> 0:7:7.730 Liz Palmer Why wouldn't we? 0:7:6.270 --> 0:7:8.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, so we use the term alright. 0:7:10.940 --> 0:7:13.350 Philippe Alain Paradis I mean, I guess like the language barrier with a lot of them, right? 0:7:13.360 --> 0:7:15.580 Philippe Alain Paradis If they if they just spoke French, they. 0:7:16.270 --> 0:7:19.400 Liz Palmer Most I'll tell you, most French people speak some English. 0:7:19.870 --> 0:7:22.330 Liz Palmer Most English people don't speak very much French. 0:7:24.810 --> 0:7:25.800 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:7:23.370 --> 0:7:26.330 Philippe Alain Paradis I've I've found that to be true as well, yeah. 0:7:25.870 --> 0:7:35.910 Liz Palmer And I spoke, I I grew up in a Ottawa in a in a real working class neighborhood and I would say more than 50% of the people in my neighborhood spoke French. 0:7:39.70 --> 0:7:39.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:7:35.920 --> 0:7:39.900 Liz Palmer So I could speak French to A to some degree, yeah. 0:7:40.50 --> 0:7:40.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:7:40.730 --> 0:7:45.920 Philippe Alain Paradis So we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. 0:7:46.160 --> 0:7:50.910 Philippe Alain Paradis How do you describe the party culture on the University Ottawa campus during 70s? 0:7:52.480 --> 0:7:53.0 Liz Palmer Vibrant. 0:7:56.820 --> 0:7:57.470 Liz Palmer It was. 0:7:57.880 --> 0:8:0.230 Liz Palmer It was very active and it was great. 0:8:0.240 --> 0:8:0.600 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:8:0.660 --> 0:8:2.20 Liz Palmer Yeah, we had a lot of parties. 0:8:2.30 --> 0:8:5.530 Liz Palmer We I remember everything was face to face. 0:8:5.540 --> 0:8:7.360 Liz Palmer There was no virtual stuff. 0:8:7.670 --> 0:8:10.360 Liz Palmer Computers didn't really exist. 0:8:10.450 --> 0:8:12.10 Liz Palmer I had a friend who was in. 0:8:14.30 --> 0:8:19.870 Liz Palmer Uh, in computer math at in Kitchener. 0:8:19.880 --> 0:8:21.420 Liz Palmer Waterloo at Waterloo. 0:8:21.430 --> 0:8:23.590 Liz Palmer You and she. 0:8:24.710 --> 0:8:31.60 Liz Palmer I would go down to visit her and I would go into would go in at 2:00, o'clock in the morning to play, quote, unquote play on the computer. 0:8:31.70 --> 0:8:34.270 Liz Palmer And the computer was the size of a of a huge room, right? 0:8:35.80 --> 0:8:42.240 Liz Palmer So computers, that's the that's that was probably 7273 somewhere in there. 0:8:42.330 --> 0:8:48.900 Liz Palmer So at that point, there were no tabletop computers or anything that you could that you could easily use. 0:8:49.50 --> 0:8:52.460 Liz Palmer There were no phones like cell phones or anything like that. 0:8:52.470 --> 0:9:4.90 Liz Palmer So yeah, the whole culture was, uh, face to face party, music, dancing, you know, different things like that. So. 0:9:5.20 --> 0:9:5.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:9:5.370 --> 0:9:7.390 Philippe Alain Paradis You really had to like if you want to have fun. 0:9:12.540 --> 0:9:13.250 Liz Palmer Well, it was. 0:9:7.400 --> 0:9:13.300 Philippe Alain Paradis You really have to like set up events and stuff that there wasn't as much digital stuff you want or any digital stuff you could do, yeah. 0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:15.590 Liz Palmer It was normal to set stuff up. 0:9:16.270 --> 0:9:16.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:9:15.600 --> 0:9:22.270 Liz Palmer I mean, whether you go down to the market, the market was a place that you could go to, but it wasn't the way it is now. 0:9:22.780 --> 0:9:28.170 Liz Palmer Leibu was on Sussex and then there were a couple of other coffee houses in the city, but. 0:9:30.360 --> 0:9:36.650 Liz Palmer If you wanted to meet people, you had to go out and and it was just you. 0:9:36.660 --> 0:9:38.410 Liz Palmer Just everybody just went out all the time. 0:9:38.420 --> 0:9:43.110 Liz Palmer It was none of this, like, you know, covid's really put a damper on a whole lot of stuff. 0:9:43.120 --> 0:9:45.860 Liz Palmer So life was very, very different. 0:9:46.820 --> 0:9:47.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:9:47.240 --> 0:9:51.430 Philippe Alain Paradis Today, if you want to go to a party, you like have to seek it out pretty intensely. 0:9:52.580 --> 0:9:53.490 Liz Palmer Yeah, I. 0:9:51.440 --> 0:9:55.980 Philippe Alain Paradis I find like the you have to, you have to really look for it. Umm. 0:9:56.40 --> 0:10:1.650 Liz Palmer So yeah, the and the girls that lived in the I lived at home, I say half the class. 0:10:1.660 --> 0:10:4.350 Liz Palmer The My class still lived at home in Ottawa. 0:10:4.800 --> 0:10:11.290 Liz Palmer A few were from outside the city and a number of people lived, you know, on on campus. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.830 Liz Palmer And there were campus. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.320 Liz Palmer There were parties, you know, and on campus as well. 0:10:17.810 --> 0:10:21.70 Liz Palmer And there was, I think there were. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:31.540 Liz Palmer Not that I went there very often, but there were small little cafes all around the university and you could go there and just drink. 0:10:31.630 --> 0:10:35.180 Liz Palmer They didn't have booze or anything, but you go drink coffee and meet your friends and stuff. 0:10:35.190 --> 0:10:37.60 Liz Palmer And there were a number of those places around. 0:10:37.810 --> 0:10:40.60 Liz Palmer There were couple on on Laurie. 0:10:40.70 --> 0:10:48.300 Liz Palmer There was a coffee, quote unquote coffee house at the university, but it was kind of more like a, you know, a great big open area. 0:10:48.310 --> 0:10:53.240 Liz Palmer It wasn't very intimate or small or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:57.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:10:54.930 --> 0:11:0.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Total like 180 from that what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:11:2.320 --> 0:11:3.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like the general sentiment. 0:11:6.390 --> 0:11:7.410 Liz Palmer Pretty much over by then. 0:11:8.340 --> 0:11:8.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.750 Liz Palmer It was in my life. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.90 Liz Palmer It wasn't a huge deal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.480 Liz Palmer The bigger deal, because I was at school during the October crisis. 0:11:18.620 --> 0:11:18.810 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:11:18.740 --> 0:11:19.50 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:11:18.820 --> 0:11:19.770 Liz Palmer With the FLQ. 0:11:19.780 --> 0:11:25.880 Liz Palmer So when I was walking up to school, there were soldiers in the streets and there were tanks in the streets. 0:11:26.860 --> 0:11:39.100 Liz Palmer And that was interesting, I mean, but it just was there, I mean those things you know, if there's, you know you're walking up to school one day cause I lived in new Edinburgh and I would walk up to Ottawa. 0:11:39.110 --> 0:11:51.990 Liz Palmer You where I take the bus and all of a sudden there were tanks in the streets and there were and they because Ottawa U was a French university, quote unquote. It was. 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:54.180 Liz Palmer It was classified as a French university. 0:11:55.590 --> 0:11:57.860 Liz Palmer They had a lot of soldiers and stuff around there. 0:11:57.870 --> 0:12:4.810 Liz Palmer Nothing ever happened, but it because of the FLQ crisis and everything that happened after that, there was a lot of. 0:12:7.360 --> 0:12:12.770 Liz Palmer I guess there was a lot of people watching to make sure nothing else would happen, but I never saw anything happened. 0:12:12.780 --> 0:12:19.900 Liz Palmer I just remember walking up and seeing this and being thinking ohh, but I wasn't terribly politically involved at that point. 0:12:26.910 --> 0:12:28.470 Liz Palmer Exactly, yeah. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:34.420 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, that, that reminds me a little bit of my first year when I am I could hear like the trucker convoy honking like it's it's just kind of jarring to know that there's like a large group of people that in, like, tensions are really high. 0:12:34.490 --> 0:12:34.690 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that must have been something to witness. 0:12:36.970 --> 0:12:42.240 Liz Palmer It it it was, it was quite something that we never seen anything like that before, right? 0:12:42.250 --> 0:12:50.30 Liz Palmer And but there was no like, I mean there my parents would say, well, I I tell them what happened and they say, oh, well, just stay out of the neighborhood or walk around it. 0:12:50.40 --> 0:12:56.520 Liz Palmer And nobody had little fits about, you know, all the oh, my God, my kids gonna get killed or something. 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:57.120 Liz Palmer It was nothing. 0:13:1.260 --> 0:13:1.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:12:58.180 --> 0:13:2.370 Liz Palmer I guess people just didn't realize what could have happened if something had happened. 0:13:2.380 --> 0:13:4.600 Liz Palmer You know, I don't know, but. 0:13:4.700 --> 0:13:13.510 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, it's interesting that people weren't as well, like, at least some people weren't as interested in the Vietnam War cause the way like I was taught it, it was such like a contentious thing. 0:13:13.740 --> 0:13:16.840 Philippe Alain Paradis But I guess by the 70s it was, it was mostly done with. 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:18.800 Liz Palmer It was contentious in the states. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:13:19.50 --> 0:13:21.330 Liz Palmer There were in Canada. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.890 Liz Palmer There were. 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:39.810 Liz Palmer There was a woman in my class whose husband was a deserter or a conscientious objector or deserter, according to whichever side you were on and and she and she and her husband moved up from the States and she was quite a bit older. 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:49.550 Liz Palmer She was probably in her mid mid 20s and she had a child at that point, so they came up ohm because of that and that was always interesting. 0:13:49.560 --> 0:13:49.920 Liz Palmer You talked? 0:13:49.930 --> 0:13:53.260 Liz Palmer Or kept in touch with her for years and years after. 0:13:53.430 --> 0:13:54.420 Liz Palmer But they never went back. 0:13:55.430 --> 0:14:0.920 Liz Palmer They stayed in Canada that they liked it and they didn't want their son to end up going through what they had gone through. 0:14:0.930 --> 0:14:3.980 Liz Palmer But I mean, it was in the news all the time and whatever. 0:14:3.990 --> 0:14:10.780 Liz Palmer But it was just part of it's, you know, part of the regular news news reports. 0:14:11.710 --> 0:14:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm so rock'n'roll artists and the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:33.840 Liz Palmer Thanking care one way or the other, my parents were from Switzerland, so they were first generate like they were. 0:14:34.70 --> 0:14:43.0 Liz Palmer They both came in the late 40s and had every intention of moving back to Switzerland, but then somehow with four kids, it didn't happen. 0:14:43.370 --> 0:14:44.270 Liz Palmer So they were really. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:46.890 Liz Palmer Music. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.330 Liz Palmer Yeah, rock'n'roll was just a type of music for them. 0:14:49.340 --> 0:14:52.360 Liz Palmer They didn't particularly like it, but we didn't. 0:14:52.510 --> 0:14:59.790 Liz Palmer I didn't really start listening to the radio till I was about 12 years old, maybe 12 or 13 or so. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:8.880 Liz Palmer That would have been what, 6465, somewhere like that, as I really didn't know much about the music at all. 0:15:8.890 --> 0:15:10.360 Liz Palmer And I was the oldest of four. 0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:15.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:15:10.370 --> 0:15:15.700 Liz Palmer So U the others followed whatever they wanted to. 0:15:17.430 --> 0:15:20.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So they were kind of just indifferent about it, uh. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.220 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:15:22.70 --> 0:15:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Uh, so some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.20 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 70s? 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:34.330 Liz Palmer Not quite available. 0:15:33.470 --> 0:15:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis If you know, yeah. 0:15:34.620 --> 0:15:35.990 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were quite available. 0:15:36.380 --> 0:15:37.290 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were. 0:15:37.300 --> 0:15:43.510 Liz Palmer There was always somebody you could always buy something you always knew there was somebody around who could get stuff for you. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:47.450 Liz Palmer Never did anything for me, just made me feel sick. 0:15:47.460 --> 0:15:48.900 Liz Palmer So I never did much of it. 0:15:49.550 --> 0:15:51.370 Liz Palmer Umm so it's. 0:15:53.820 --> 0:15:57.270 Liz Palmer And we were so busy with other things that we didn't have time for that. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:7.700 Liz Palmer I mean, you know when when you're doing a nursing program, you went to school five days a week and then, but then you had to do, we had to be in the hospital 3 mornings a week. 0:16:7.710 --> 0:16:11.370 Liz Palmer So you didn't have time to, you didn't have time for any of that nonsense. 0:16:11.380 --> 0:16:18.810 Liz Palmer And we were all older and most of us, well, certainly me didn't have any access to it. 0:16:18.820 --> 0:16:24.30 Liz Palmer I went to a Catholic girls high school, so it was pretty strict and my family was very strict. 0:16:24.140 --> 0:16:26.930 Liz Palmer So I never really had got into this. 0:16:34.80 --> 0:16:34.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:29.0 --> 0:16:37.130 Liz Palmer Probably until I got to university, but and it was never a big deal for me or my friends, yeah. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Today it's pretty common like today, it's pretty common. 0:16:37.780 --> 0:16:41.430 Philippe Alain Paradis You'll see, like I'll be in the parking lot and I'll see someone smoking something a little funny. 0:16:42.110 --> 0:16:42.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.970 Philippe Alain Paradis And and you know it's it's very it was it open like that back then like it was just or well a more secretive. 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.840 Liz Palmer No, no, because it it was far more secretive. 0:16:49.850 --> 0:17:1.830 Liz Palmer I mean, I mean, the best thing was, is I remember we go to parties and there were brownies and I love brownies, so I would eat these brownies and and feel really weird after that. 0:17:1.840 --> 0:17:4.160 Liz Palmer And then somebody would say how many did you have? 0:17:4.170 --> 0:17:9.790 Liz Palmer And I say I had two or three and I said, Oh my God, you better go home or go sit in the corner and fall asleep. 0:17:9.800 --> 0:17:11.730 Liz Palmer So that's all it ever did and made me sleep. 0:17:11.740 --> 0:17:21.460 Liz Palmer So I was no fun at a party if they if if there were any drugs like that around it, it just wasn't something I wanted to waste my time or my money on. 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:22.610 Liz Palmer I didn't have any money either. 0:17:22.620 --> 0:17:24.770 Liz Palmer So you know that was the other thing too. 0:17:24.0 --> 0:17:26.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, not super appealing. 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:27.590 Liz Palmer No. 0:17:29.260 --> 0:17:38.930 Philippe Alain Paradis And the 19 in the 1970s see a lot of talk about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach like a higher state of consciousness. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you know like to what extent people use Hallucinogenics specifically? 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:46.950 Liz Palmer Not many people I knew. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 Liz Palmer We just, we all just figured it was stupid to do that. 0:17:50.700 --> 0:17:50.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Fair. 0:17:50.620 --> 0:17:52.610 Liz Palmer So why would you want to do that to yourself? 0:17:53.460 --> 0:17:53.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:17:53.780 --> 0:17:58.590 Liz Palmer Like we, we were not umm, we're very practical. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:1.60 Liz Palmer Down to Earth people, I don't know that it was just not. 0:18:2.680 --> 0:18:17.180 Liz Palmer I mean, I guess also because we were in nursing in medicine, we would see the results of some of this and it was very you know when we're doing mental health, there were a lot of people at the royal at that time who had tripped badly and there was no way I was gonna do any of that stuff. 0:18:18.170 --> 0:18:18.880 Philippe Alain Paradis That's interesting. 0:18:18.890 --> 0:18:23.230 Philippe Alain Paradis You actually got to see like the the bad results from that. Umm. 0:18:23.20 --> 0:18:23.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:34.910 Liz Palmer And if some of them were pretty awful, I mean that that was, I think the thing being in medicine or nursing or anything is that you you saw the result of bad medicine or bad tripping or bad drugs or whatever it was. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.540 Liz Palmer And you know, it was not pleasant. 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.100 Liz Palmer And and again we weren't. 0:18:39.90 --> 0:18:40.220 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you get a lot of those? 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.580 Liz Palmer There were some. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.70 Liz Palmer You know, we surgeries that went bad. 0:18:48.80 --> 0:19:4.610 Liz Palmer Uh, I saw a 12 year old have a baby and decided that point that maybe you know that having an abortion was not a bad thing, got into a lot of our angry discussions with my own parents who are fiercely Catholic and whatever. 0:19:4.620 --> 0:19:15.350 Liz Palmer And at that point, I left the church, and because there's no way that I could ever condone a 12 year old having a baby because that was, you know, she was my she was my client. 0:19:15.360 --> 0:19:20.280 Liz Palmer And I'm thinking, Holy God, you know, that's just not a way for anybody to start their life. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Nope. 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:22.540 Liz Palmer No. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, alright, so this one. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:30.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:43.250 Philippe Alain Paradis Will this next section will focus more on the female experience, so cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.80 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:49.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:54.310 --> 0:19:54.820 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:59.800 Liz Palmer I mean, there was we, we read all the the books and we, you know, we followed all that sort of stuff. 0:20:0.810 --> 0:20:2.530 Liz Palmer Probably more so than the war in Vietnam. 0:20:5.830 --> 0:20:14.760 Liz Palmer But everything was changing at that time, so it was very different from probably people have been at university in the 60s like. 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:25.730 Liz Palmer I mean, if you if you would talk to someone who was university in the 60s, if you'd get it very different viewpoint, I think umm, it was accepted that women would work. 0:20:26.740 --> 0:20:30.360 Liz Palmer It was accepted that, you know, women would get equal pay. 0:20:32.70 --> 0:20:33.130 Liz Palmer Uh, of course. 0:20:33.140 --> 0:20:36.170 Liz Palmer At that point, everybody is saying, oh, yes, yes, yes, that's the way it is. 0:20:36.180 --> 0:20:42.380 Liz Palmer And it wasn't till 20 years later that we realized that women were being paid less for the same jobs. 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:42.980 Liz Palmer Right. 0:20:43.580 --> 0:20:43.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:20:43.860 --> 0:20:44.580 Philippe Alain Paradis They're wage gap. 0:20:43.90 --> 0:20:44.860 Liz Palmer But that had yet to come. 0:20:45.130 --> 0:20:45.530 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:20:45.590 --> 0:20:51.360 Liz Palmer So the so the possibilities were there, everybody looked forward to things changing. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.560 Liz Palmer You know the burn, your bra thing that was there were a lot of went to a lot of those sorts of rallies and things like that. 0:21:0.580 --> 0:21:6.130 Liz Palmer Umm, but honestly, we were so busy we didn't have time to do a lot of that. 0:21:6.140 --> 0:21:12.420 Liz Palmer I mean, we were busy living our life and going to school and doing stuff was, you know, we didn't. 0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:14.450 Liz Palmer You had to hand write all your essays. 0:21:15.770 --> 0:21:17.140 Liz Palmer I didn't have a typewriter. 0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:25.60 Liz Palmer So you can imagine like you know, you were busy doing stuff and you actually had to go to a library and use books to look things up. 0:21:25.70 --> 0:21:27.0 Liz Palmer There was nothing online to do it. 0:21:27.10 --> 0:21:33.760 Liz Palmer So your life was busy doing things that now take a tenth of the time of what they used to take. 0:21:35.250 --> 0:21:35.710 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:21:34.730 --> 0:21:44.340 Liz Palmer And there's no there were no chat bots or whatever to get you through stuff, and there was no AI to write your papers for you or anything, you know. 0:21:44.350 --> 0:21:46.340 Liz Palmer So it was it was. 0:21:46.570 --> 0:21:47.280 Liz Palmer It was different. 0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:47.660 Liz Palmer It was a very. 0:21:49.450 --> 0:21:56.290 Liz Palmer Different time and I guess for women, I do remember I had a a friend in my class. 0:21:56.300 --> 0:21:58.560 Liz Palmer Her father was a physician here in Ottawa. 0:21:58.670 --> 0:22:0.440 Liz Palmer Old, old fashioned. 0:22:0.890 --> 0:22:1.740 Liz Palmer Nice man. 0:22:1.750 --> 0:22:3.310 Liz Palmer Old-fashioned French Canadian. 0:22:5.360 --> 0:22:7.190 Liz Palmer His daughter is was brilliant. 0:22:7.280 --> 0:22:14.770 Liz Palmer Probably the smartest of the whole family should have been a position, but he wouldn't allow her to do medicine because she was a girl. 0:22:14.820 --> 0:22:22.400 Liz Palmer Because women should stay home and have babies and look after their families and and at the time, I couldn't. 0:22:25.340 --> 0:22:25.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.830 Liz Palmer I I had really had a problem with that because. 0:22:25.630 --> 0:22:33.630 Philippe Alain Paradis So you went to like some events because like, I imagine that probably like sure like that made you feel stuff there that that's pretty that's pretty like upsetting to hear. 0:22:33.980 --> 0:22:35.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. Yeah. 0:22:33.930 --> 0:22:37.690 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, it was I I found it very upsetting but I have to. 0:22:38.580 --> 0:22:44.210 Liz Palmer It wasn't till years later till I realized that my parents were very different from a lot of other. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:47.70 Liz Palmer I came from a low a very working class neighborhood. 0:22:48.490 --> 0:22:54.350 Liz Palmer My parents both worked with no choice because they, but because they came from Europe, they were. 0:22:54.360 --> 0:22:58.320 Liz Palmer They weren't German, they were Swiss, but they were always treated as if they were German. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:22:59.990 Liz Palmer So post war, that was a big deal. 0:23:2.400 --> 0:23:12.10 Liz Palmer But my parents always said to said to my sister and I at the two oldest you guys are going to go to university like there was never any option that we wouldn't go. 0:23:13.50 --> 0:23:17.0 Liz Palmer It was expected that we would go to university and that's all there was to it. 0:23:17.170 --> 0:23:18.420 Liz Palmer We grew up that way. 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:30.700 Liz Palmer My brothers, my two younger brothers, went as well and I didn't realize till I was quite a bit older than a lot of women like they had to pay their own way to go to universe. 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:35.580 Liz Palmer Their parents wouldn't pay for it because women didn't go to university in those days. 0:23:36.130 --> 0:23:36.710 Liz Palmer They just didn't. 0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:41.450 Liz Palmer Umm, it was just you would go to. 0:23:41.460 --> 0:23:43.190 Liz Palmer You know you could work in the government. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:44.790 Liz Palmer You could do secretarial school. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:52.470 Liz Palmer I had good friends that did secretarial school, but out of my like, I'm thinking about my my sort of grade school class. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.100 Liz Palmer My even my high school, my high school class, was the best. 0:23:56.770 --> 0:24:10.780 Liz Palmer Graduated June 1970, I would say 1/3 of 1/3 of my class went on to university and I would say about half my class got married because they were. 0:24:11.130 --> 0:24:14.960 Liz Palmer They were Italian background so they got it. 0:24:15.70 --> 0:24:21.560 Liz Palmer They were lucky they got through high school and then they got married that summer and then the rest of us went on to do different things. 0:24:21.570 --> 0:24:25.310 Liz Palmer And I say maybe 1/3 of us out of that class went on to university. 0:24:26.120 --> 0:24:27.620 Liz Palmer So it was a very different time. 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:28.830 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:24:34.860 --> 0:24:36.750 Liz Palmer I wasn't inequality, it's just the way it was. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:37.230 Liz Palmer It was. 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:37.470 Philippe Alain Paradis So like as you went along, you started being exposed to more of these like injustices and like inequalities and a little bit, right? 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.70 Liz Palmer It was cultural. 0:24:38.80 --> 0:24:46.280 Liz Palmer It was very, very cultural and because because it was a Catholic girls school, there were a lot of Italian young ladies there. 0:24:46.290 --> 0:24:52.180 Liz Palmer They were friends, but those of us that weren't that were from different backgrounds. 0:24:52.190 --> 0:25:0.140 Liz Palmer I would say uh, as I said about 1/3 a third of bus went on to university and and finished university and did different things. 0:25:1.550 --> 0:25:4.140 Liz Palmer But then a whole lot of them didn't. 0:25:4.210 --> 0:25:7.960 Liz Palmer You know, some went on to secretarial school, some worked in a government. 0:25:9.40 --> 0:25:12.110 Liz Palmer It was umm, but I didn't realize again. 0:25:12.120 --> 0:25:21.280 Liz Palmer As I said earlier, until much later in life that my family was very different because the expectation was that we would go to university and my parents paid for it. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:22.160 Liz Palmer That was the other thing. 0:25:22.780 --> 0:25:23.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:25:22.750 --> 0:25:23.390 Liz Palmer My dad. 0:25:23.120 --> 0:25:23.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you. 0:25:23.470 --> 0:25:24.130 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:24.350 --> 0:25:25.240 Liz Palmer Yeah, my dad sort. 0:25:29.220 --> 0:25:29.370 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:32.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, you didn't realize like maybe later other people wouldn't agree with that, like other people might not like the notion of a woman going. Yeah. 0:25:33.980 --> 0:25:34.200 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:34.690 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, no women didn't. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:41.90 Liz Palmer There was still that that old fashioned idea that women don't go to university, they don't need higher education because they're just gonna get married. 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.100 Liz Palmer And they're gonna have kids, and they're gonna stay home. 0:25:43.850 --> 0:25:49.490 Liz Palmer Well, neither myself, my sister nor my good friends did any of that. 0:25:49.500 --> 0:25:50.800 Liz Palmer We we all. 0:25:50.860 --> 0:25:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, most of us married, we all had jobs. 0:25:53.210 --> 0:25:53.910 Liz Palmer We worked. 0:25:54.330 --> 0:26:7.310 Liz Palmer We were like that whole generation of younger women that had our children use daycare or whatever and and continued working right up until we retired. 0:26:8.700 --> 0:26:9.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:9.330 --> 0:26:13.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:26:14.120 --> 0:26:14.630 Philippe Alain Paradis How did? 0:26:14.740 --> 0:26:15.470 Philippe Alain Paradis How did that? 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:16.790 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:26:17.180 --> 0:26:17.620 Liz Palmer No kidding. 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:18.250 Philippe Alain Paradis How did peeing a woman? 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:18.890 Philippe Alain Paradis How? 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis How is it being a woman result in different treatments and expectations in classrooms where at social events compared to male students? 0:26:27.970 --> 0:26:31.120 Liz Palmer It's hard to say because most everyone in my class was female. 0:26:31.130 --> 0:26:33.390 Liz Palmer There were no male students, so. 0:26:33.450 --> 0:26:34.20 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:34.750 --> 0:26:41.770 Liz Palmer So in those days, yes, if you were going in to a building, the men would hold the door for you. 0:26:44.300 --> 0:26:44.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:26:44.230 --> 0:26:45.340 Liz Palmer That's all I. 0:26:45.380 --> 0:26:52.360 Liz Palmer But as you know, when it came to other, I think expectations of female students and male students were the same. 0:26:52.370 --> 0:26:53.480 Liz Palmer You had to produce. 0:26:53.790 --> 0:26:58.950 Liz Palmer You know, if there was paperwork to be done or essays to be written, you had to produce those. 0:27:0.540 --> 0:27:5.150 Liz Palmer I don't because my class was all women and all taught by women. 0:27:5.160 --> 0:27:7.670 Liz Palmer There were no male teachers either it. 0:27:8.800 --> 0:27:16.300 Liz Palmer I mean, I took the psychology and philosophy and I did some film classes and art classes and stuff, but. 0:27:21.150 --> 0:27:21.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:27:18.470 --> 0:27:22.210 Liz Palmer I didn't feel that there was any difference, to be honest. Yeah. 0:27:24.230 --> 0:27:24.990 Liz Palmer That was it, yeah. 0:27:21.670 --> 0:27:26.250 Philippe Alain Paradis You just attended class and did the work and that was that. Yeah. 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:39.160 Philippe Alain Paradis So in the 1970s, were there, you oughta programs, departments or clubs or like just social events or anything where women like or maybe you or just women in general, like felt less like present and accepted. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:42.930 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:43.930 Liz Palmer No, I never felt that. 0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:45.260 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:27:45.340 --> 0:27:47.130 Liz Palmer Now if I wanted to be there, I'd be there. 0:27:47.140 --> 0:27:49.500 Liz Palmer If I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. 0:27:49.860 --> 0:28:0.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, alright, so historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:28:1.390 --> 0:28:1.640 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:28:0.100 --> 0:28:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? 0:28:13.170 --> 0:28:15.380 Liz Palmer Umm interesting question. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:23.140 Liz Palmer I think we all felt the need to see it to get into a better world, for sure. 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:30.150 Liz Palmer Umm, we certainly felt that women were equal to anything a man did. 0:28:31.370 --> 0:28:31.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:28:34.650 --> 0:28:41.450 Liz Palmer There were probably guys I met that were stupid, but you know, they didn't last long in my world. 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.870 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.320 Liz Palmer I most of the boyfriends I had were older. 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:54.700 Liz Palmer UM, at the time the like. 0:28:54.710 --> 0:28:55.360 Liz Palmer It was interesting. 0:28:55.370 --> 0:29:1.590 Liz Palmer The engineers in our building were big drinkers, Big partiers. 0:29:2.850 --> 0:29:10.180 Liz Palmer I don't know if they're still the same I, but at the time that's the way they were the, you know, there was the football games and all that stuff. 0:29:10.190 --> 0:29:12.180 Liz Palmer And they were always drunk or whatever. 0:29:12.570 --> 0:29:21.230 Liz Palmer And they always sort of made stupid comments, but as we got to know them and they got to know us as people, it was that kind of disappeared. 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:22.470 Philippe Alain Paradis But humanize them. 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.610 Liz Palmer But that whole? 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.310 Liz Palmer Yeah, exactly. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.510 Liz Palmer But you know at the beginning it was all this stupid stuff and we just told them to get stuffed. 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:37.390 Liz Palmer And I mean, it was just most of our friends most we did a lot of work with the with medicine. 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:51.740 Liz Palmer Like we took some of our courses with the medical students and as we got to know them really well, like the people in that like their first year medicine and stuff we did, we did some anatomy and Physiology classes over at the medical building. 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:52.260 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:29:52.270 --> 0:30:2.930 Liz Palmer I don't think they do that anymore, but I I don't know how it's set up, but we got to know those guys and there were a few women, but again, it was mainly men there as well. 0:30:3.630 --> 0:30:8.0 Liz Palmer So and the and the nursing was all was all women and all female teachers. 0:30:8.10 --> 0:30:10.970 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess. 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:13.780 Liz Palmer I don't. 0:30:17.780 --> 0:30:18.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:30:15.10 --> 0:30:20.170 Liz Palmer I don't remember being terribly conscious about it, but it was certainly something that we were aware of. 0:30:20.180 --> 0:30:20.910 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:30:22.330 --> 0:30:30.120 Philippe Alain Paradis And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents, notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:30:35.780 --> 0:30:37.690 Liz Palmer Yeah, well, that was an interesting one. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:45.100 Liz Palmer Umm my, I would go on a date in the first thing my mother would say is what is this father do and where does he go to church? 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.390 Liz Palmer And I said I have no clue. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:48.250 Liz Palmer I could just. 0:30:48.820 --> 0:30:52.330 Liz Palmer To me, that was that was the traditional role, right? 0:30:52.700 --> 0:30:58.390 Liz Palmer I I remember at one point I was going out with a fellow for for quite a while and my mother was getting very insistent. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.870 Liz Palmer I said, mom, I'm going to dinner. 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:9.470 Liz Palmer I'm not marrying the man and she was, like, totally blown away because if you were going out to someone, then the possibility was there that you're in it, married. 0:31:9.480 --> 0:31:10.450 Liz Palmer And I said absolutely not. 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.330 Liz Palmer I mean, we're just going out for dinner. 0:31:12.340 --> 0:31:13.890 Liz Palmer We're going to a movie. 0:31:13.900 --> 0:31:15.150 Liz Palmer We're going to a concert. 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:16.450 Liz Palmer You know, whatever it is. 0:31:17.140 --> 0:31:29.570 Liz Palmer So I I would say that yes, our our notions of dating and marriage and and as I mentioned, you know, some religious notions were were very much at odds with each other. 0:31:29.580 --> 0:31:36.720 Liz Palmer But you had to respect your parents because they were older and they lived a different through a very different time than we did. 0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:42.440 Liz Palmer Umm, but that didn't mean that I had to follow like as I said with the religious thing. 0:31:42.450 --> 0:31:47.40 Liz Palmer And there were things I saw when I was working in the hospital. 0:31:47.50 --> 0:31:55.660 Liz Palmer And you know things that happened to people as a result of stupid religious stuff like, you know, not being able to have an abortion or something and it. 0:31:55.670 --> 0:31:59.460 Liz Palmer And as I said, that was I would never do that for myself. 0:32:3.800 --> 0:32:4.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:31:59.470 --> 0:32:4.990 Liz Palmer But then I never got myself in that into that position either, so yeah. 0:32:4.900 --> 0:32:9.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that's interesting, because that's a like the way that you see the situation of just going to the movies with someone. 0:32:9.860 --> 0:32:13.470 Philippe Alain Paradis And the way that your parents look at it is so vastly different. 0:32:13.590 --> 0:32:14.60 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.740 Philippe Alain Paradis It's like you're not like marriage is not a thing that like you're going to a movie. 0:32:16.540 --> 0:32:17.910 Liz Palmer Yo, I got I. 0:32:18.340 --> 0:32:20.190 Liz Palmer Yeah, and all the time. 0:32:20.380 --> 0:32:20.520 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:28.240 Liz Palmer I mean, most of my friends during that time, we all, most of us married in in the end. 0:32:30.0 --> 0:32:32.990 Liz Palmer But it wasn't till later and I actually got married. 0:32:33.0 --> 0:32:33.790 Liz Palmer I met my husband. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.290 Liz Palmer I graduated in June. 0:32:35.660 --> 0:32:47.130 Liz Palmer I met my husband the following September and we got married the following June and most of my friends got married after that course and a couple got married. 0:32:47.190 --> 0:32:57.810 Liz Palmer Just sort of at the end of that school year, those four years because it was just too hard to deal with marriage and living together and all that other kind of stuff. 0:32:58.700 --> 0:32:59.130 Liz Palmer A lot. 0:32:59.140 --> 0:33:4.790 Liz Palmer A number of people did live together with their boyfriends, but that again was later on. 0:33:6.390 --> 0:33:16.350 Liz Palmer Ottawa was still a pretty small town in those days and we weren't big city people either, so there was a lot of it was still a little bit of that hanging on. 0:33:17.60 --> 0:33:17.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:25.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And looking back at the 70s, what aspects of Canadian society do you see most out of whack and either fixing? 0:33:25.40 --> 0:33:28.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what were you the most passionate about problems wise? 0:33:30.250 --> 0:33:32.160 Liz Palmer Sorry, I don't really understand that question. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:39.80 Philippe Alain Paradis I'm like for example like it could be like feminism or something like what in Canadian society back then. 0:33:41.930 --> 0:33:47.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel like the strongest about that you felt needed changing like a societal thing? 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.200 Liz Palmer Oh, I see. 0:33:49.710 --> 0:33:49.950 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:33:51.340 --> 0:34:0.460 Liz Palmer While religion was still very, very strong, had a big especially in a small town like like Ottawa was a small town a feminism. 0:34:3.90 --> 0:34:4.450 Liz Palmer Was certainly talked about. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:11.610 Liz Palmer I looked on with a great deal of hmm, you know, do we do? 0:34:11.620 --> 0:34:12.590 Liz Palmer Do we want this or not? 0:34:15.820 --> 0:34:32.170 Liz Palmer I I would think that religion really, when it comes down to it was it was still had a huge hold on and certainly in the early 70s had a huge hold on how people thought about their lives, about how they lived it, umm, how they brought up their children. 0:34:33.330 --> 0:34:37.300 Liz Palmer Ah, what they would stand for and what they wouldn't so. 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:45.670 Liz Palmer Yeah, families at the war in Vietnam also was an issue because we had so many people. 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:55.730 Liz Palmer We we know there were a number of people that came up to Ontario and there were other people that I had met later on in the years that came up because of that. Umm. 0:34:58.130 --> 0:34:59.600 Liz Palmer We didn't have a lot of money. 0:34:59.610 --> 0:35:1.0 Liz Palmer Money was still a big issue. 0:35:1.10 --> 0:35:10.560 Liz Palmer Money was still a really big class issue in those days too, so if you didn't have a lot of money, you didn't travel, you didn't have the fancy clothes. 0:35:10.570 --> 0:35:13.140 Liz Palmer You didn't live in the fancy houses. 0:35:13.150 --> 0:35:21.620 Liz Palmer You, you know, again, as I say, I came from a pretty working class neighborhood, but my parents, you know, they did everything for us kids. 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:30.60 Liz Palmer They they lived and so their children could do, I guess, could do better in their life, right? 0:35:29.260 --> 0:35:30.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm yeah. 0:35:32.370 --> 0:35:33.80 Liz Palmer There wasn't. 0:35:33.90 --> 0:35:39.810 Liz Palmer It's not like now when you know people have kids and they kind of let them go feral and do whatever they want. 0:35:41.150 --> 0:35:43.50 Liz Palmer Your parents, you know, you came home. 0:35:43.60 --> 0:35:44.860 Liz Palmer You had dinner every night together. 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:49.80 Liz Palmer Uh, and that's what I did with we did with our own children. 0:35:49.90 --> 0:35:50.660 Liz Palmer Is that, you know, dinner was important. 0:35:50.670 --> 0:35:54.820 Liz Palmer You had to come home, have dinner, unless you had a hockey practice or something like that. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:56.910 Liz Palmer But family came first. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:2.0 Liz Palmer Your work and then your schooling, etcetera came was ever. 0:36:3.470 --> 0:36:4.780 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues? 0:36:4.790 --> 0:36:6.840 Philippe Alain Paradis It sounds like you mentioned religion a few times. 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:15.840 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:36:6.850 --> 0:36:19.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues that like to at the time you were, like, frustrated about it like you like, like like you mentioned for example, like religion a few times like you saw someone at like in that, like clearly needed an abortion. 0:36:19.570 --> 0:36:23.410 Philippe Alain Paradis So like that sounds like that like struck a chord with you a little bit like, yeah. 0:36:22.90 --> 0:36:23.980 Liz Palmer Ohh definitely that was a it was. 0:36:23.990 --> 0:36:32.400 Liz Palmer It was a very big deal for me and because my parents were such staunch Catholics, that became an issue in our family, between myself and my mom. 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:40.650 Liz Palmer My dad was pretty easy going because my excuse me, my dad was originally Lutheran but became Catholic. 0:36:40.660 --> 0:36:44.30 Liz Palmer So he could marry my mother because she wouldn't marry him if he wasn't cast like so. 0:36:44.40 --> 0:36:51.20 Liz Palmer That's how strong her religion was, and we were brought up very strictly in the Catholic faith and we didn't know any better. 0:36:51.30 --> 0:36:53.540 Liz Palmer And we, you know, we actually had a very good life. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:55.150 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:36:56.370 --> 0:36:58.290 Liz Palmer And you know, very safe. 0:36:58.720 --> 0:37:2.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, like I mean, you know, we were never in any danger. 0:37:2.640 --> 0:37:3.840 Liz Palmer We always had enough food. 0:37:5.290 --> 0:37:14.920 Liz Palmer I mean, when you look at what people are going through today, we actually even though we didn't have a lot, we were always you know, well looked after well fed and well loved. 0:37:15.720 --> 0:37:27.120 Liz Palmer But as we got as my sister and I both got older and even my brothers, because they are quite a bit younger than we are, we all left the church behind, which was really interesting. 0:37:27.170 --> 0:37:28.20 Liz Palmer None of us. 0:37:29.290 --> 0:37:32.970 Liz Palmer Well, my kids, I took my kids to church. 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.300 Liz Palmer They went to Sunday school, but my husband's not Catholic. 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:39.970 Liz Palmer My mother in law just about died when she had to go to a Catholic Church. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.940 Liz Palmer We got married. 0:37:40.950 --> 0:37:44.510 Liz Palmer That was hard for her, but you know, it was those. 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:45.850 Liz Palmer So those religious things? 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:48.580 Liz Palmer Protestant, Catholic, whatever were very, very strong. 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:57.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:37:51.190 --> 0:37:59.30 Liz Palmer But I guess that that was probably the biggest, the biggest thing, I think until until we got older and things. 0:38:1.520 --> 0:38:2.240 Philippe Alain Paradis Mellow down. 0:38:1.140 --> 0:38:2.770 Liz Palmer Sort of resolved, but again my. 0:38:2.840 --> 0:38:4.340 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:38:5.0 --> 0:38:5.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:5.640 --> 0:38:9.270 Liz Palmer And then the church changed in the 70s and the late in the 80s too. 0:38:9.280 --> 0:38:11.620 Liz Palmer So that was a whole other big issue then. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:21.460 Philippe Alain Paradis What did you see back then as the biggest form of injustice in Canadian society, like the things that you found the most unfair? 0:38:23.70 --> 0:38:23.480 Liz Palmer Hmm. 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:30.850 Liz Palmer In the at that time, probably women's rights. UM. 0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:39.370 Liz Palmer There wasn't much I worked one summer up north in Moosonee. 0:38:39.380 --> 0:38:55.490 Liz Palmer I worked at A and indigenous hospital at the time and that was the first time I really saw the differences between living, you know, as a white person living South and then going up to an area cause I worked the whole summer up there. 0:38:55.500 --> 0:38:56.330 Liz Palmer I would take. 0:38:56.660 --> 0:39:4.330 Liz Palmer I would take patients back up north to different we they fly them up north and the nurse would have to go with them. 0:39:4.340 --> 0:39:5.500 Liz Palmer I was going as the nurse. 0:39:6.570 --> 0:39:12.270 Liz Palmer That was the first time I really saw those types of injustice, and that was that was a huge deal at the time, I remember. 0:39:13.550 --> 0:39:16.70 Liz Palmer Umm but. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:25.660 Liz Palmer Probably I, you know, I wasn't terribly aware in those days of those things to be quite honest, it was. 0:39:25.390 --> 0:39:31.340 Philippe Alain Paradis But it was clear that something had to had to be done about it, and it's. 0:39:30.490 --> 0:39:32.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, the women's rights were a big deal. 0:39:36.670 --> 0:39:43.510 Liz Palmer Medical medical advances that were available to some people and not to others available in some areas but not in others. 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:55.180 Liz Palmer There were, you know, when I was up north, there were women used to come quote unquote S to musani to Moose factory to have their babies. 0:39:55.190 --> 0:40:2.390 Liz Palmer And there were a lot of babies born with very awful birth defects that most of them didn't live. 0:40:4.450 --> 0:40:10.820 Liz Palmer So there was a lot of that that we saw and they're just because they lived in small places like small villages and stuff up north. 0:40:10.870 --> 0:40:11.910 Liz Palmer He had to come that far. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:25.250 Liz Palmer So, but you know, it was it was just a very different life, and that was the first exposure I got to, you know, women that would have 10 or 12 children and and with the child didn't live, they were OK with that because the kid was. 0:40:32.220 --> 0:40:32.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:25.260 --> 0:40:36.660 Liz Palmer So I mean, there was no way the child could live because they were so badly are they had so many health issues that they wouldn't live outside of an incubator, right. 0:40:37.410 --> 0:40:37.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:40:37.260 --> 0:40:40.890 Liz Palmer So those those children died within a few days, and the mother was sad. 0:40:40.900 --> 0:40:44.870 Liz Palmer But it was an acceptance which you would never get here. 0:40:44.940 --> 0:40:45.640 Liz Palmer Never get here. 0:40:45.380 --> 0:40:47.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that sounds quite jarring to witness. 0:40:48.170 --> 0:40:50.70 Liz Palmer Umm I was and and then. 0:40:47.700 --> 0:40:52.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And that's yeah, like to see that that that was like normal sort of there was. 0:40:52.590 --> 0:40:53.280 Liz Palmer Exactly. 0:40:53.490 --> 0:40:55.880 Liz Palmer It was, yes, more normalized than it should have been. 0:40:56.750 --> 0:40:56.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:1.590 Liz Palmer But then the children were born with birth defects that you wouldn't see here because of the inbreeding. 0:41:1.600 --> 0:41:2.250 Liz Palmer That a lot of it. 0:41:2.300 --> 0:41:4.70 Liz Palmer That's how it was explained to me at the time. 0:41:5.170 --> 0:41:10.680 Liz Palmer But I think now it was also things like mercury in the water pesticide use. 0:41:10.720 --> 0:41:12.300 Liz Palmer There's probably all that kind of stuff. 0:41:12.310 --> 0:41:14.800 Liz Palmer That was all in there, but we didn't know about it in those times. 0:41:15.460 --> 0:41:15.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:41:15.700 --> 0:41:23.540 Philippe Alain Paradis So you saw some pretty pretty like bad issues on the reservations that that's that that's quite a good example of injustice. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That's that's tragic. 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:30.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:41:24.790 --> 0:41:36.820 Liz Palmer Well, that was the reserves were very also, you know you go up there, you land, there's a nursing station and the house where the doctor lived or the nurse lived at the social worker and the teachers lived. 0:41:36.830 --> 0:41:41.180 Liz Palmer And then then there's where the actual people in the village live. 0:41:42.660 --> 0:41:42.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:41:41.270 --> 0:41:50.70 Liz Palmer Very different and my husband will actually was a was a teacher for, I think two years in a northern community as well on the reserve. 0:41:50.80 --> 0:41:53.680 Liz Palmer And you know, his stories were very similar to that as well. 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:1.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:42:2.0 --> 0:42:4.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing any of the any of these issues at all. 0:42:5.900 --> 0:42:8.830 Liz Palmer Ohh, probably not, but honestly I wasn't. 0:42:8.840 --> 0:42:11.200 Liz Palmer I really wasn't into politics at that point. 0:42:11.180 --> 0:42:11.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:42:11.990 --> 0:42:18.350 Liz Palmer I was my family was liberal and I used to work at different. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:19.30 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:19.100 --> 0:42:19.420 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:21.660 --> 0:42:25.700 Liz Palmer Work at, you know, different times when they were elections and stuff. 0:42:26.620 --> 0:42:27.590 Liz Palmer I was part of that. 0:42:27.740 --> 0:42:35.160 Liz Palmer I used to go to meetings, political meetings and stuff like that, but it was never John Turner was who I worked for. 0:42:35.170 --> 0:42:41.280 Liz Palmer I think when one year, but he lost out to Pierre Trudeau senior, so that was different. 0:42:41.690 --> 0:42:44.30 Liz Palmer But anyway, so it was the again. 0:42:46.0 --> 0:42:47.670 Liz Palmer Different times, you know. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:48.550 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:42:48.620 --> 0:42:52.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there like an assumption that, like the government wasn't doing things correctly back then? 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:53.930 Liz Palmer Oh, no. 0:42:52.860 --> 0:42:54.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing these things, no. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.280 Philippe Alain Paradis OK. 0:42:53.940 --> 0:42:58.680 Liz Palmer No, no, no, no government could do no wrong in those days in our household anyway. 0:43:2.550 --> 0:43:20.280 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, so for the this next section, cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you agree with that statement? 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:25.470 Liz Palmer Ohh, absolutely absolutely yes. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.420 Liz Palmer Yes, with the pill you could do whatever you want and you didn't have to worry about getting pregnant, right? 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:33.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis That must have been a huge change. 0:43:37.10 --> 0:43:38.870 Liz Palmer Yes and no. 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:39.120 Philippe Alain Paradis Compared to. 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.270 Liz Palmer I mean it compared to before, probably, yeah. 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.70 Liz Palmer But the pill had always been available. 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:50.120 Liz Palmer I mean, even though I went to a Catholic girls school, we all knew about the pill. 0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:51.400 Liz Palmer My mother was very good about. 0:43:53.940 --> 0:43:58.150 Liz Palmer Uh, you know, teaching us the sex education schools didn't do it in those days. 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:5.310 Liz Palmer Like, I mean, your parents did it, but my parents were very open about things and they were very good about that. 0:44:5.320 --> 0:44:9.190 Liz Palmer So we we knew about those things, but of course we were allowed to take it right. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:9.200 --> 0:44:13.460 Liz Palmer And of course, there was no sex before marriage and all that other kind of stuff. 0:44:13.470 --> 0:44:15.120 Liz Palmer But that all changed. 0:44:17.130 --> 0:44:20.790 Philippe Alain Paradis And what did dating look like at Yowa during the 1970s? 0:44:22.890 --> 0:44:23.820 Liz Palmer But how do you mean? 0:44:23.830 --> 0:44:26.400 Liz Palmer Just ohh guys got. 0:44:23.500 --> 0:44:27.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, I'm just like, yeah, very generally speaking. 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:29.320 Liz Palmer Oh, just guys. 0:44:29.330 --> 0:44:30.110 Liz Palmer Ask girls out. 0:44:31.300 --> 0:44:31.980 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:44:33.790 --> 0:44:35.320 Liz Palmer You would go for coffee. 0:44:35.330 --> 0:44:37.700 Liz Palmer There were the coffee go to movies. 0:44:43.270 --> 0:44:43.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:39.350 --> 0:44:44.660 Liz Palmer Nobody had any money, so nobody really went out to dinner unless you went out with someone who was older. 0:44:45.110 --> 0:44:49.220 Liz Palmer So you would go to concerts, you'd go to movies, you'd go to parties together. 0:44:49.670 --> 0:44:50.720 Liz Palmer You know, that kind of thing? 0:44:51.890 --> 0:44:52.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Just. 0:44:50.810 --> 0:44:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, pretty normal stuff, yeah. 0:44:53.990 --> 0:44:54.300 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:54.310 --> 0:44:54.830 Philippe Alain Paradis That reminds me. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what you were saying earlier? 0:44:58.300 --> 0:44:59.180 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah. 0:44:55.980 --> 0:44:59.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you do a lot of really casual things and just like normal. 0:45:0.980 --> 0:45:1.220 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:3.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Hang out and yeah, and then your parents had their views on it. 0:45:5.170 --> 0:45:5.740 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:45:4.640 --> 0:45:6.590 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:45:5.790 --> 0:45:6.840 Liz Palmer What is this father do? 0:45:6.850 --> 0:45:7.860 Liz Palmer And where does he go to church? 0:45:7.960 --> 0:45:9.240 Liz Palmer I've no clue. 0:45:8.870 --> 0:45:9.920 Philippe Alain Paradis I haven't even met him. 0:45:9.250 --> 0:45:10.20 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:45:9.970 --> 0:45:10.620 Philippe Alain Paradis I don't know his name. 0:45:10.230 --> 0:45:13.870 Liz Palmer I will he be live in Montreal? 0:45:14.20 --> 0:45:15.850 Liz Palmer Because a lot of people came to Ottawa. 0:45:15.860 --> 0:45:17.950 Liz Palmer You from a lot of different places, right? 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:18.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:31.120 Liz Palmer So because they had programs there that didn't have any other places, so there were lots of and and the other thing too is that it was thought that was the easy to get into Ottawa because they always were looking for students. 0:45:32.20 --> 0:45:32.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:45:32.90 --> 0:45:37.310 Liz Palmer But then of course, my sister went to Saint Paths, which was a separate college. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.300 Liz Palmer But then became part of Carlton. 0:45:40.90 --> 0:45:47.90 Liz Palmer But then, of course, he always disparage Carlton because they were just the, you know, anybody could get into Carlton. 0:45:49.540 --> 0:45:50.500 Liz Palmer So yes. 0:45:50.190 --> 0:45:50.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:45:50.690 --> 0:45:59.180 Philippe Alain Paradis And was it ever look down on, like just dating casually, like amongst just just the younger people, just the uottawa? 0:45:59.710 --> 0:46:1.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Or was it just totally normal? 0:46:1.900 --> 0:46:4.30 Liz Palmer Ohh it's not you mean what do you mean dating? 0:46:7.880 --> 0:46:8.120 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:46:4.630 --> 0:46:8.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, yeah, like some parents might not approve of, like their kids going around and dating it. 0:46:8.480 --> 0:46:8.860 Philippe Alain Paradis You Ottawa. 0:46:8.870 --> 0:46:10.320 Philippe Alain Paradis But amongst students, was it. 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:11.390 Liz Palmer Oh, it's not. 0:46:10.330 --> 0:46:12.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it frowned upon at all? No. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:12.930 Liz Palmer No, no, not at all. 0:46:12.940 --> 0:46:13.680 Liz Palmer Day dating was. 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:16.360 Liz Palmer Well, that's how you got to meet people, right? 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 0:46:18.170 --> 0:46:19.490 Philippe Alain Paradis Like just relationships and stuff. 0:46:19.500 --> 0:46:21.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That was just it was just normal. 0:46:21.720 --> 0:46:22.450 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:46:29.550 --> 0:46:29.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:46:22.460 --> 0:46:31.760 Liz Palmer I mean, I think my sister in law put it when you went to university to to earn your Mrs right and your misses like to find your husband, right? 0:46:31.770 --> 0:46:32.300 Liz Palmer Your Mrs? 0:46:32.270 --> 0:46:33.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. Yeah. 0:46:41.380 --> 0:46:41.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:44.670 Liz Palmer Well, that's, I guess that was kind of what it was like, but I mean, no, everybody just dated and and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't, you know. 0:46:47.20 --> 0:46:49.610 Philippe Alain Paradis How did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:46:49.620 --> 0:46:50.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there any like? 0:46:50.820 --> 0:46:56.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Did they ever really like challenge those notions or discuss it or yeah. 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:4.850 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, I think a lot of younger women because of the pill and because of the changing morays of the time. 0:47:4.860 --> 0:47:12.950 Liz Palmer You could you could have a relationship with someone you could move in, but you didn't have to get married, and that was a huge deal for a lot of girls. 0:47:13.20 --> 0:47:15.880 Liz Palmer And a lot of women guys, of course, were happy with that. 0:47:18.350 --> 0:47:18.530 Liz Palmer But. 0:47:21.460 --> 0:47:28.630 Liz Palmer I think in the end they're probably more after we graduated that happened, I would find. 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:33.580 Liz Palmer But because when we were at school, nobody, as I said, nobody had any money like so. 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:37.150 Liz Palmer Certainly my friends in my class, most people didn't have a lot of money. 0:47:37.460 --> 0:47:45.150 Liz Palmer So, you know, we were living at home or we were, you know, living on campus or you were living in an apartment with two or three other people. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Liz Palmer So you were scrimping and saving, so it was. 0:47:50.700 --> 0:47:51.990 Liz Palmer It was kind of different. 0:47:54.660 --> 0:48:2.310 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess the the fact that you didn't have to get married anymore was the that that was a huge deal. 0:48:3.70 --> 0:48:3.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:2.960 --> 0:48:5.680 Liz Palmer That was a huge deal at the time and I think that made a difference. 0:48:6.600 --> 0:48:9.880 Liz Palmer Umm, because you didn't really need to. 0:48:12.820 --> 0:48:20.220 Liz Palmer Uh, you didn't really need to worry about getting married, cause all of a sudden you didn't really need to get married. 0:48:21.550 --> 0:48:26.350 Liz Palmer But still, having kids without a partner, I always felt was very difficult cause. 0:48:28.390 --> 0:48:29.370 Liz Palmer Kids are a lot of work. 0:48:30.270 --> 0:48:30.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:33.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:32.490 --> 0:48:36.690 Liz Palmer I take a lot out of the you need two people to do that or or a village to raise a child, yes. 0:48:35.260 --> 0:48:38.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, for sure. Right. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:41.930 Philippe Alain Paradis So like just the notion of like, do you like having to get married and stuff? 0:48:41.940 --> 0:48:46.730 Philippe Alain Paradis It was looked at like more practically, if at times by younger people, yeah. 0:48:45.750 --> 0:48:47.170 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was it. 0:48:47.210 --> 0:48:49.660 Liz Palmer There was no notion of having to get married anymore. 0:48:49.470 --> 0:48:49.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:49.670 --> 0:48:50.280 Liz Palmer You got married. 0:48:50.290 --> 0:48:54.110 Liz Palmer If you wanted to, and if you wanted, if you wanted to, that was great. 0:48:56.370 --> 0:48:56.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.380 Liz Palmer But if you didn't want to, you didn't have to, which was fine too, yeah. 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:57.690 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:48:58.610 --> 0:48:59.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:59.670 --> 0:49:15.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And just before I move on to the last section, do you like, do you think that like just regarding all of these things and and just general attitudes, behavior and stuff on campus, do you think like movies and music and stuff influence like people's behavior a lot? 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like maybe like rock becoming popular a little later. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.870 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:49:18.810 --> 0:49:25.250 Philippe Alain Paradis And did you ever see like the impact of like media on people and their behavior on campus at all? 0:49:26.670 --> 0:49:27.580 Philippe Alain Paradis It's gonna make but. 0:49:33.390 --> 0:49:33.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:49:30.330 --> 0:49:34.120 Liz Palmer Yes, music in particular, music. 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:34.940 Liz Palmer Governed. 0:49:35.110 --> 0:49:35.320 Liz Palmer Who? 0:49:35.330 --> 0:49:37.400 Liz Palmer Your friends were where you went. 0:49:37.460 --> 0:49:44.370 Liz Palmer The concerts you went to, the books you read, the group she belonged to. Uh. 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.270 Liz Palmer Disco was part of it, but then I was far more at. 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.670 Liz Palmer At one point I was far more into umm. 0:49:58.620 --> 0:50:0.420 Liz Palmer It's sort of the coffee house scene. 0:50:1.90 --> 0:50:1.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:50:2.910 --> 0:50:10.620 Liz Palmer And all those, all that kind of sort of stuff, we were far more hip than the people that went to do disco. 0:50:12.470 --> 0:50:14.190 Liz Palmer We thought we were like, put it that way. 0:50:15.940 --> 0:50:17.190 Liz Palmer We were that we were smarter. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.910 Liz Palmer You know, we've always thought we were better than the rest, but I mean, we were just stupid. 0:50:21.300 --> 0:50:23.860 Liz Palmer But umm, it was. 0:50:25.540 --> 0:50:32.540 Liz Palmer I think it really led into how you lived, who, where you went, who your friends were. 0:50:40.670 --> 0:50:41.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Wow. 0:50:33.830 --> 0:50:42.910 Liz Palmer As I said, the books you read the the opinions you held and who and in the end who you ended up voting for too, it was, you know, so it it. 0:50:42.980 --> 0:50:43.330 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:50:43.340 --> 0:51:8.20 Liz Palmer Because you know, if it was, it's as I got older, I got more and more into the into the political stuff because you you always, you know, sort of became aware as time went on as of how who you voted for in the election would affect how much money was going to education or healthcare or you know the what was going into you know whatever was affecting the world at that time but umm. 0:51:10.90 --> 0:51:14.360 Liz Palmer Yeah, I think I think there was certainly a correlation in there for sure. 0:51:14.580 --> 0:51:20.480 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that that's interesting because you named basically every facet of like what makes someone and like an individual, right? 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:20.860 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:23.540 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:20.490 --> 0:51:28.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Like their opinions, they're the people they hung around with that then all of that, like music, had a pardon. Hmm. 0:51:25.750 --> 0:51:40.0 Liz Palmer And and movies were a big thing, too, because we got very snotty about about watching French films, and I'm I learned, I I I started to smoke when I was at university, cause everybody smoked and it ought to be you. 0:51:40.10 --> 0:51:40.490 Liz Palmer You smoke? 0:51:40.500 --> 0:51:42.180 Liz Palmer God was in Japan, right? 0:51:42.190 --> 0:51:43.220 Liz Palmer The French cigarettes. 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:44.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.960 Liz Palmer So anything French became very ohkura very. 0:51:51.220 --> 0:51:54.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right trends and stuff, but that could all that. Mm-hmm. 0:51:49.910 --> 0:51:55.420 Liz Palmer In very if you want trend trend, yes, trendy. 0:51:55.490 --> 0:51:59.320 Liz Palmer And if you wanted to be, quote unquote, one of the cool kids, this is what you did. 0:51:59.330 --> 0:52:1.860 Liz Palmer So you wore certain clothing you. 0:52:3.900 --> 0:52:6.810 Liz Palmer You went to certain places, you went to certain clubs, you. 0:52:7.670 --> 0:52:10.700 Liz Palmer Uh, you spoke French or you didn't? 0:52:10.710 --> 0:52:12.840 Liz Palmer Or or you pretended you did. 0:52:12.850 --> 0:52:18.640 Liz Palmer Or, you know, whatever it it did affect your it did affect your life at one point. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:19.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:19.250 --> 0:52:21.770 Liz Palmer So yeah, I would say definitely. 0:52:21.780 --> 0:52:26.670 Liz Palmer And and movies from the states, I mean, you had you had Deer Hunter you had. 0:52:28.350 --> 0:52:28.970 Liz Palmer Taxi. 0:52:33.820 --> 0:52:34.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:28.980 --> 0:52:37.40 Liz Palmer You had all those other movies that came in to being at like I Love films, so that was something that I really like to to to do. 0:52:37.490 --> 0:52:41.620 Liz Palmer But in a place like Ottawa, there weren't a lot of, you know. 0:52:43.430 --> 0:52:46.860 Liz Palmer Films that came out that that were anything. 0:52:46.930 --> 0:52:48.450 Liz Palmer The what was it the? 0:52:51.70 --> 0:52:57.210 Liz Palmer And I forget that the theater on Queen Street Bank and Queen forget. 0:52:57.220 --> 0:52:58.300 Liz Palmer I think it was called the realtor. 0:52:58.370 --> 0:52:59.210 Liz Palmer No, it wasn't that. 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:1.50 Liz Palmer Forget what it was called anyway. 0:53:1.660 --> 0:53:4.30 Liz Palmer They would have foreign films come in. 0:53:4.40 --> 0:53:8.760 Liz Palmer So you'd have foreign film festivals or you go to Montreal to see movies and stuff like that too. 0:53:9.920 --> 0:53:10.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.20 Philippe Alain Paradis So this final section is totally optional. 0:53:14.580 --> 0:53:21.590 Philippe Alain Paradis There's a disclaimer that comes with it because it it's a it's a very, very sensitive topic, so if I'll read this claimer and you just have to say yes or no. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.300 Philippe Alain Paradis And if you say no, I won't ask any questions and that'll be it for the interview. 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:26.160 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:53:26.80 --> 0:53:32.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, OK, so this glimmer is the following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:53:32.580 --> 0:53:39.90 Philippe Alain Paradis We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:53:39.300 --> 0:53:43.470 Philippe Alain Paradis You may choose to not answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:53:45.170 --> 0:53:47.650 Liz Palmer I'm fine with that. Yep. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:53.250 Philippe Alain Paradis OK, so many universities today have been, uh, forced to police sexual harassment. 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.640 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:54:1.450 --> 0:54:2.530 Liz Palmer I don't think they did anything. 0:54:4.980 --> 0:54:5.500 Liz Palmer Why would they? 0:54:6.650 --> 0:54:8.960 Philippe Alain Paradis Did did you see it as much of an issue back then? 0:54:8.970 --> 0:54:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, were there rumors circulating or like, people getting caught? 0:54:12.500 --> 0:54:12.850 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:54:12.730 --> 0:54:13.610 Liz Palmer No, no. 0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:17.860 Philippe Alain Paradis So it must have been like pretty like hush hush if yeah. 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 Liz Palmer If it happened, we didn't hear about it. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm wow. 0:54:20.500 --> 0:54:21.780 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way, yeah. 0:54:21.80 --> 0:54:26.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, because I like I have seen stats and so I was like, I have seen people seen stats and stuff and it seems that it was it was quite it. 0:54:26.900 --> 0:54:29.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It turns out like now we know that it was quite prevalent. 0:54:29.490 --> 0:54:33.310 Philippe Alain Paradis So it's interesting to hear that it was kept like you know. 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:36.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:38.270 Liz Palmer I think you have to look at the times from the perspective of the times. 0:54:39.770 --> 0:54:43.520 Liz Palmer Nowadays, women get all upset because the guy whistles at them on the street. 0:54:44.10 --> 0:54:44.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:45.340 --> 0:54:46.650 Liz Palmer No big deal in my day. 0:54:47.240 --> 0:54:47.820 Liz Palmer So what? 0:54:48.430 --> 0:54:49.70 Philippe Alain Paradis If you. 0:54:48.260 --> 0:54:50.510 Liz Palmer So good, I appreciate what you looked like. 0:54:50.990 --> 0:54:51.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:50.580 --> 0:54:54.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays someone will go hearing off to the police saying, Oh my God, he whistled at me. 0:54:56.530 --> 0:54:56.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:54:56.310 --> 0:54:58.690 Liz Palmer That's harassment in some women's. 0:55:0.560 --> 0:55:4.490 Liz Palmer You know and and fair enough if they feel harassed and that then that's it. 0:55:4.840 --> 0:55:6.440 Liz Palmer But in our day, that was not a deal. 0:55:7.220 --> 0:55:9.790 Philippe Alain Paradis If you applied, I'll put A twist on the question. 0:55:9.990 --> 0:55:10.210 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:55:16.90 --> 0:55:18.100 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, they're probably was there. 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.80 Liz Palmer It was there. 0:55:9.960 --> 0:55:19.590 Philippe Alain Paradis If you apply just just for fun, if you applied today's standards of sexual harassment, what would it would have been bad, yeah. 0:55:22.300 --> 0:55:22.570 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:55:19.150 --> 0:55:28.20 Liz Palmer I would I remember being on the bus and a man sitting really close to me like and pushing me like coming right close to me. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.130 Liz Palmer That's harassment as far as I'm concerned. 0:55:30.590 --> 0:55:34.900 Liz Palmer I got up, stepped on his foot, got off the bus. 0:55:36.390 --> 0:55:38.730 Liz Palmer So never reported it. 0:55:39.850 --> 0:55:41.700 Liz Palmer That happened all the time. 0:55:42.370 --> 0:55:42.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:55:41.950 --> 0:55:43.390 Liz Palmer If you were young woman, yeah. 0:55:44.940 --> 0:55:45.210 Liz Palmer I'm. 0:55:45.220 --> 0:55:46.770 Liz Palmer I'm not gonna say all the time, but it happened. 0:55:47.190 --> 0:55:47.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:48.330 Liz Palmer It happened a lot. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.980 Liz Palmer There were, but As for me, I was never. 0:55:56.170 --> 0:56:0.550 Liz Palmer I was never a victim of that type of harassment. 0:56:0.560 --> 0:56:1.430 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:56:1.440 --> 0:56:5.470 Liz Palmer Like anything that that these days, women would complain about. 0:56:5.480 --> 0:56:9.920 Liz Palmer I mean, yeah, some guy would punch your pinch your bottom or something. 0:56:12.420 --> 0:56:13.370 Liz Palmer So no big deal. 0:56:14.170 --> 0:56:14.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:13.780 --> 0:56:18.830 Liz Palmer I mean, that's just, that's just what happened and that's how it was thought of in those days. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:19.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays it's not. 0:56:19.980 --> 0:56:20.730 Liz Palmer It's different. 0:56:20.860 --> 0:56:21.180 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:27.870 Liz Palmer My daughter, would you know, she she would probably, Umm, report somebody who did that. 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.350 Liz Palmer But in my day it was part of the culture. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.950 Liz Palmer If you can put it that way, I mean, I'm not saying it's right. 0:56:32.300 --> 0:56:34.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm it, yeah. 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:36.880 Liz Palmer I'm just saying that that's that's the way it was. 0:56:36.890 --> 0:56:41.560 Liz Palmer That's that's what guys did and I grew up in working class neighborhoods. 0:56:42.770 --> 0:56:44.250 Philippe Alain Paradis There's normalized totally. 0:56:41.570 --> 0:56:45.670 Liz Palmer So there was it was exactly. 0:56:47.570 --> 0:56:47.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:45.740 --> 0:56:48.500 Liz Palmer That's a very good way to put it was normalized, so yeah. 0:56:47.950 --> 0:56:50.200 Philippe Alain Paradis So it wasn't even viewed as a problem that needed fixing. 0:56:50.210 --> 0:56:52.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just how? Wow. 0:56:52.30 --> 0:56:54.300 Liz Palmer It's just the way some men are stupid. 0:56:54.770 --> 0:56:55.660 Liz Palmer That's the way they are. 0:56:55.830 --> 0:56:56.440 Liz Palmer You didn't. 0:56:56.450 --> 0:57:2.600 Liz Palmer You didn't have anything to do with those guys, but you know my my mom used to make it very clear. 0:57:2.610 --> 0:57:3.440 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:3.570 --> 0:57:4.290 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:5.350 --> 0:57:5.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:57:6.60 --> 0:57:6.300 Liz Palmer OK. 0:57:5.930 --> 0:57:11.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And our yeah, our generation is interested in a like in a free love movement. 0:57:11.670 --> 0:57:17.380 Philippe Alain Paradis What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? 0:57:17.390 --> 0:57:21.640 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it viewed negatively accepted or like literally encouraged? 0:57:21.650 --> 0:57:23.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Or like amongst the. 0:57:22.730 --> 0:57:23.700 Liz Palmer Was accepted. 0:57:24.50 --> 0:57:24.940 Liz Palmer It was accepted. 0:57:24.950 --> 0:57:29.0 Liz Palmer I meet most of the girls in in my class had boyfriends and. 0:57:31.230 --> 0:57:31.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:31.170 --> 0:57:32.480 Liz Palmer They all went to bed together. 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:33.40 Liz Palmer I mean, it was. 0:57:34.550 --> 0:57:34.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:33.50 --> 0:57:35.260 Liz Palmer No, it was accepted. 0:57:35.270 --> 0:57:35.600 Liz Palmer It was. 0:57:35.610 --> 0:57:38.680 Liz Palmer It was your choice if you wanted to, umm. 0:57:42.890 --> 0:57:43.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:39.330 --> 0:57:50.660 Liz Palmer As it as of whether they were pressured, I don't know what was never brought up as as an issue like I never knew anybody who was upset by the fact that some guy had pressured. 0:57:50.710 --> 0:57:52.840 Liz Palmer I mean, there were guys that were stupid enough to. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:53.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:54.830 --> 0:57:56.720 Liz Palmer Think that you know you didn't talk to each other. 0:57:56.730 --> 0:57:57.420 Liz Palmer There was one guy. 0:57:58.810 --> 0:58:1.370 Liz Palmer He was in law and he was a football player. 0:58:2.410 --> 0:58:7.520 Liz Palmer He was going out with a girl in my class and he called me up and asked me out on a date and I said ohh great and I. 0:58:7.530 --> 0:58:9.420 Liz Palmer But aren't you going out with so and so's? 0:58:9.430 --> 0:58:11.340 Liz Palmer Ohh no, no, no, no, that's all over. 0:58:12.870 --> 0:58:12.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:11.690 --> 0:58:18.330 Liz Palmer So I find out later because no one's talking to me in my class, that she found out that he was going out. 0:58:18.340 --> 0:58:22.810 Liz Palmer He went out with me and I said, well, he told me that you two would split up. 0:58:22.890 --> 0:58:23.550 Liz Palmer We haven't. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:24.710 Liz Palmer I didn't know that. 0:58:25.180 --> 0:58:28.590 Liz Palmer Well, that was the end of that from both sides. 0:58:29.300 --> 0:58:38.250 Liz Palmer But I mean so there was always that kind of stuff that was going on, but he was a I mean we only ever got to the point of going out for a meal or something. 0:58:38.260 --> 0:58:42.270 Liz Palmer And then I'm sure he he wanted to take a further, but there was no. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.370 Liz Palmer But then my friend found out. 0:58:46.940 --> 0:58:47.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:45.380 --> 0:58:48.750 Liz Palmer And then, of course, then the whole class just turned on him, and that was that. 0:58:48.820 --> 0:58:49.590 Liz Palmer But I mean there. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.860 Liz Palmer So that kind of thing happened. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.20 Liz Palmer But that's just the kind of thing that happened to me. 0:58:59.100 --> 0:59:0.240 Philippe Alain Paradis That was your experience. 0:59:0.250 --> 0:59:0.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:54.30 --> 0:59:1.50 Liz Palmer There might have been other things that happened to other women, but I don't know of any of them. Yeah. 0:59:1.70 --> 0:59:8.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And and just casual relationships like that, like they there was, there wasn't much judgment going around regarding that type of thing. 0:59:8.310 --> 0:59:9.40 Liz Palmer Oh no mate. 0:59:8.440 --> 0:59:13.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Like if a woman went with a lot of guys like it wasn't as or, you know, not not to your knowledge. 0:59:13.130 --> 0:59:15.91 Liz Palmer Well, I have to say I i.e. 0:59:15.870 --> 0:59:20.380 Liz Palmer My sister was going out with somebody and their first boyfriend. 0:59:20.390 --> 0:59:21.660 Liz Palmer She's still married to him. 0:59:21.750 --> 0:59:22.890 Liz Palmer 50 some odd years later. 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:30.160 Liz Palmer And he used to say to me, well, you know, you should get a boyfriend. 0:59:30.170 --> 0:59:31.860 Liz Palmer And I said, well, why would I want a boyfriend? 0:59:31.870 --> 0:59:33.340 Liz Palmer I'm meeting all these nice men. 0:59:34.310 --> 0:59:36.970 Liz Palmer We're going out to concerts and I mean nothing ever happened. 0:59:37.810 --> 0:59:39.660 Liz Palmer Uh, but I just didn't find. 0:59:43.830 --> 0:59:44.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:59:39.670 --> 0:59:45.300 Liz Palmer You know, there was just nobody I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with at that point, and that was so, so. 0:59:45.310 --> 0:59:49.740 Liz Palmer But he would, you know, that was from his perspective is that you should have one guy and only go up with one guy. 0:59:49.750 --> 0:59:53.580 Liz Palmer Well, I didn't feel that necessity and I didn't hadn't met the right person. 0:59:53.590 --> 0:59:55.840 Liz Palmer So, so that was different so. 0:59:59.130 --> 1:0:3.300 Liz Palmer But most of the most of my good friends, we all dated lots of different people. 1:0:3.670 --> 1:0:5.860 Liz Palmer We didn't sleep with them, but we dated them. 1:0:6.390 --> 1:0:6.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:6.30 --> 1:0:8.440 Liz Palmer Some of them may have slept with them, but I, you know, I didn't. 1:0:9.300 --> 1:0:9.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:9.590 --> 1:0:10.820 Liz Palmer So that was just me. 1:0:10.870 --> 1:0:14.680 Liz Palmer But then the other thing is is I lived at home, so there was no. 1:0:14.810 --> 1:0:18.380 Liz Palmer That was another big, huge problem for a lot of guys, too. 1:0:19.220 --> 1:0:20.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:0:20.990 --> 1:0:25.770 Philippe Alain Paradis And I imagine what did members of your parents generation to worry about premarital sex a lot. 1:0:26.180 --> 1:0:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Ohh. 1:0:26.110 --> 1:0:27.980 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, they were terrified of it. 1:0:26.410 --> 1:0:28.900 Philippe Alain Paradis Like. Yeah. Yeah. 1:0:28.30 --> 1:0:29.360 Liz Palmer Absolutely terrified of it, yes. 1:0:31.30 --> 1:0:31.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 1:0:31.730 --> 1:0:35.720 Philippe Alain Paradis So like, it sounds like amongst the younger people, it just wasn't much of a thought. 1:0:40.920 --> 1:0:42.170 Liz Palmer Most of, yeah. 1:0:35.730 --> 1:0:42.860 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just normal and OK and but the older crowd that was it was like not there was tension there probably. Umm. 1:0:42.260 --> 1:0:47.290 Liz Palmer Most of our parents felt that it was, you know, premarital sex was just not cause. 1:0:47.360 --> 1:0:53.330 Liz Palmer Most of my friends were Catholic or came from religious or Protestant Jewish families. 1:0:53.750 --> 1:0:56.420 Liz Palmer So you didn't even talk about premarital sex. 1:0:56.430 --> 1:1:5.560 Liz Palmer But but in our generation like that, I mean, I know there were girls that that slept around, but it was no big deal. 1:1:5.570 --> 1:1:6.780 Liz Palmer Like, I mean it wasn't. 1:1:9.330 --> 1:1:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 1:1:7.470 --> 1:1:10.460 Liz Palmer We didn't look down on them or think any less of them. 1:1:10.470 --> 1:1:11.520 Liz Palmer I mean, that was their choice. 1:1:12.900 --> 1:1:13.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 1:1:12.550 --> 1:1:18.440 Liz Palmer But that was also part of the feminist movement at the time, because that was your choice to sleep with whomever you wanted. 1:1:19.550 --> 1:1:20.410 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:1:20.360 --> 1:1:20.520 Liz Palmer Yeah. 1:1:20.420 --> 1:1:22.820 Philippe Alain Paradis So yeah, alright, I've done. 1:1:22.830 --> 1:1:24.110 Philippe Alain Paradis That's every question. 1:1:24.120 --> 1:1:25.660 Philippe Alain Paradis I'll I'll stop the recording real quick. 1:1:26.160 --> 1:1:26.360 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. Transcription Translation 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Pour la première question, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation autour de l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa a une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Donc la première question serait qu'il y avait moins d'électronique au Canada dans les années 70. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Pas du tout. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Alors, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 70 ? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Eh bien, nous allions au pub après l'école. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer Je suis sûre que c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, mais il y avait... 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer On allait voir mon père, on riait. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer Nous allions à la bibliothèque tous les soirs et après la fermeture de la bibliothèque, parce que j'étudiais les soins infirmiers. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer Nous allions donc à la bibliothèque médicale, puis à l'Albion, qui n'existe plus, je crois. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer Il n'existe plus et nous y allions probablement presque tous les soirs. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer Il y avait des danses. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer Nous avons dirigé l'école d'infirmières. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Palmer, Elizabeth Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about life on campus in the University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including social life, and people's views during that time. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, 1:01:37 Language A language of the resource English 1970s Abortion Academics Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Disrcimination Generational Differences Marriage Nursing October Crisis Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Matheson, Amilia Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Zoom) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound (Start of part 1 of interview) Amilia Matheson: (1:54) Section one is on popular culture. (2:00) So, cultural historians have argued that television Hollywood popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together, so our first question is, there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time scheduled, or what did uOttawa students do for fun in the 1970s? Ernest Tannis: (2:30) Well, apart from all the drinking… it was rampant well… even among the some of the professors and the Dean, but that seemed to be a pretty prevalent theme throughout law school was the drinking and too often intoxication. I mean there was one night when one of our students friends or colleagues decided to photocopy his bum and sat on the photocopy machine… had to go to the hospital and that's an extreme thing but that's something that we do remember; is that even driving back and forth, some of us were coming in from out of town: Prescott, and people… I mean these were law students still drinking and driving. So, the kind of conduct was not as great as it should have been and that related to interrelationships. So, those were not… I mean there was like a… they were like the 70s hippies but we're law students. But it was a way to deal with the stress of law school because it was very stressful. I think I told you about getting into law school there was over a thousand applicants… they only picked just about a hundred, and the first day, the Dean put ten of us each and his office (4:00) didn't say congratulations. He said, “look around… 40% of you won't be here next year,” then he said, “handle an article the good law school flunks 40% of its students,” he said, “even if you make it the second, third year.” So, there's a lot of pressure, very strict pressure. But, at the end of the day after many years of people, we we only ended up with sixty-five people from a-hundred-and-some [graduated]. People said, well, we got prepared for the tough people… we said we're getting you prepared for a tough profession. So, it was a kind of environment I was not expecting, and I'm not used to. That gives you word… we thought it was fun and it [drinking] was the way they, you know, deal with everything, and there is no leeway given in terms of exams or papers. Those days, 100% of your grade was the last exam, and it was an open exam, you could bring stuff in. But you were just… you're looking over your shoulder. So I think in, you know, in reflection it was a very stressful environment, and it was always great to feel that you made it to the next year and you didn't know what was going on and on and on, and then you see people it was some people have heart attacks and the stress… there was one woman in particular she had the BA, a masters degree, A plus plus and she didn't make it, and she became… she kind of fell apart. So I saw a lot of damaged goods, but the ones… we did enjoy it I always joke my way through law school. I was joking in class and that's how we made it through. So, I don't know if (6:00) that answers your question in in any part, but that was what comes to me when you ask that. And there was not a lot of electronics, it's true, and we had one guy in particular that became the walking genius so we all had lined up to ask him questions. One thing we did do, we had study groups that were really good. We actually officially met for study groups and learned from each other, but we had to stay on top of the materials. Amilia Matheson: (6:31) Okay, perfect that was a great answer… exactly what I was looking for thank you. I have some follow up questions for this theme if you have any information on these little questions they’re more specific. Okay, what were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? Ernest Tannis: (7:00) Oh well, let me think. Well, definitely the local bars. I think you're jogging my memory, but I do believe we did enjoy the library. Like, we found the library is very quiet, we can do our research there. You know people were not allowed to speak out, so you could have focus time. So, I remember how much time we spent at the library. Often we were together, or if we can go to a place where we could pass notes or whatever. But we would do research together, we would make sure that the required readings were all done up, and sometimes there was optional readings. Sometimes we would use our spots to like, if there was a lot of reading to be done, we would take turns reading (8:00) certain things and then debrief the others [instead] of everybody reading one thing. So, we developed a very collective group. I think we had about five students or more in each group, and so that was good. That's what I think of… that library. I mean, to me it was my second home. I loved the library. I love books. I wanted to be, actually, I wanted to be a librarian not a lawyer. But anyway, that's another story. Other spots we would go tried to do… some group buildings like theater, or plays, or you know. We tried to socialize as a group, and some of us got to know others better, some of us stayed away from certain people because they would want to do things that were not appropriate. And then other spots, well I was very much into the spiritual realm. I always have been so, you know some of us, we’d go to spiritual places together. I like to go to all the different places: mosques, synagogues, you know, where Buddhist and Hindus meet, Christians, Jews. So going to those spots, in recollection I tried once a week to try to get some people to go to a different place because they're all governed by laws, Canon law you know, there’s common law, there’s civil law, there's Sharia law but there's also the Canon law. So it's good to get to know how religions see the law. And then, Shakespeare wrote, “if religious canons be cruel, what should war be?” So that was another thing that comes to mind. Amilia Matheson: (9:44) Okay perfect. Ottawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it in the 1970s? Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same courses and participate in the same clubs? Ernest Tannis: (10:00) That's a great question. My recollection is, people couldn't in those days we were the first law school at the Fauteux Hall 1971. That's when it opened, so we have that and we’re doing our 50th anniversary next year. So, you can always do everything in English. People with French, I think in those days they can ask for some French, but I don't remember that the faculty were fully bilingual. I don't remember that being the case, so I think that was a factor. But I always believe the only language in the world that counts is the language of love, and the idea of these verbal languages… like, we can get too trapped in words. We should work from our heart, and I guess somebody said maybe they got involved with the law to try to humanize, to bring some humanization to it. But trying to bring the language of love into the legal profession and law school was an objective of mine and we would have conversations around there. So the linguistic part it does not stand out as a big issue, it's not an obstacle, and it wasn't required. But it was in the air though for sure. There was a lot of sensitivity around ensuring the respect for the French language because it's a bilingual university. Amilia Matheson: (11:35) What did the student body think about the Vietnam War? Ernest Tannis: (11:42) Well, I would say in general all of that generation were against the war. You know, I can't imagine, when you look back at history and you look at the protests now that are going on, especially with the social media, (12:00) and a lot of the hare krishna people, with all the draft dodgers and all the cases of people trying to get excused from the war for conscious objectors. That was a part that I found intriguing about you know the famous cases where people go to be conscious objectors, and they were ridiculed if they wanted to avoid service, which you know, and those issues prevail today. But I would say by and large the attitude of university students everywhere was against that kind of intervention for a lot of reasons not just political and intellectual and philosophical. It was about military and somebody else controlling your life and it didn't seem to be sensible or fair that somebody can require you to go kill another human being. But war is necessary sometimes, it's killing… this killing is not a problem. It's murder, as so killing is usually justified to protect your family and your property and your nation which we have done in history and is still being done, but that war did not resonate. I don't think with that generation. Amilia Matheson: (13:23) All right, I think I have two more questions for this section and then we can move on to the next. The first question is: rock'n'roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? Ernest Tannis: (13:42) They didn't comprehend it. I don't think they would try to figure out what it was. It was like a foreign language in a way. So, there was not like a dialogue around, it was just something that they didn't want to learn that language. We spoke that language (14:00) and they said it's fine with you, you know, don't bother us with that we're too old to learn a new language. So, there was a real generational divide on that. Amilia Matheson: (14:14) Alright, and for this last one, if you don't feel comfortable answering this one you don't have to speak of your personal experience or anything, but the question is: some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus? Ernest Tannis: (14:33) Too much. By the way, I told you in our last discussion, there's never a last question there's only the next one. Drugs, I never partook in them. There was one night, somebody asked me to try it out, and apparently it was very funny for the rest of the night I don't quite remember. Somebody was giving me cookies because I couldn't smoke… I tried but I just could not relate to that, but I found that on campus that was pretty prevalent, openly or secretly. I could not relate to that, and there were a lot of parties to go to, and there was more drugs than alcohol. Sometimes I had trouble because I was inhaling it. But people seem to open up more when they were on drugs, you know, they seem to be able to get stuff out, and so I was always sober in that regard so I became an active listener. So I learned a lot. People there bore their souls a lot you know about their frustrations or their concerns, and so it seemed to be a necessary ingredient for some people to get through. Amilia Matheson: (15:57) Alright, thank you. Okay, our second section is (16:00) the female experience. So the opening statement slash question is: cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement women during the early 70s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the uOttawa campus in the early 1970s? Ernest Tannis: (16:22) Oh for sure. It's a great question, you know, whoever drafted these questions knows what they're talking about. Amilia Matheson: (16:30) I helped draft these questions! Ernest Tannis: (16:32) Oh, very good! One of the things that struck all of us was that out of a thousand-plus applicants the majority were men. There were still quite a bit of women, we didn't know the exact number but it was quite a few. But of the hundred-and-some that were accepted, and when you look at the end of the day, of the 65 graduates there was only five women. Now you compare that to today there's over 50% as I know in law school that are women. And that was kind of a tension at the time. It was like it was always considered to be a, I think, a male dominated profession from the time it got started in 18th century and was brought over here from England. But I don't think women, you know, were considered to be the right gender for law school and judges. I mean, the first female judge in Canada was in the early 1980s, late 1970s. Justice Roselie Abella, who became a judge of the Court of Appeal and the judge of the Supreme Court of Canada. I talked to you about her. She's been phenomenal supportive social justice but she and other women like her they did breakthroughs in Canada. I think that helped because if you look at her career, in fact she was under 30 I think, and she was pregnant too, (18:00) so that made it really unique in Canadian history. Women like that and other women in the profession did make some breakthroughs, and that started around that time. So Justice Abella, if you look at her incredible career, and she wrote the 1984 report on equality for everybody including disabled people, people of color, and so on. So I think at that time frame your cultural historians should look at the women that made those strides. It was like the Suffragette movement. There were women well known for making sure that women can vote. There were women back then in the late 70s, 80s, but really the 70s when we were there, who were making breakthroughs including into the faculty and other positions in society. So I would kind of add that to the mix of some study about that, and definitely put Justice Rosalie Abella to top of the list. They were inspiring, I think, to the women in our class. It was inspiring to see women get into these positions. Amilia Matheson: (19:09) All right, a follow-up question: in your own words what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 70s? Ernest Tannis: (19:19) Well, I guess people's… I mean I saw that phrase as an evolution of thinking. The woman that came up with that phrase, her name escapes me, but she ended up ridiculing the third wave of feminism and so on. So, it was kind of a split within the movement about that, and it kind of, although, was trying to do an integration concept and equality, it actually created a lot of divisions, I found, a lot of conflict. We're not, you know, equal and all the rest of it, so the woman that wrote the book and started, she ended up being ostracized by the feminist movement because she found it went too far, (20:00) and it was not integrating thinking with other not just male sectors, but other sectors of society. But at that time, it was what we call the second wave, we went to a third wave, fourth wave, and then it got taken over by a group… that's what I understand. But in those days, my recollection is it was appreciated that that topic was being considered, I mean I was getting involved with disability issues, and there was a lot of issues around with justice. In the 1984 very historic document in Canada and actually was accepted around Canada and other law common law countries, a good breakthrough of disadvantaged people, and women were considered in that group. So we got to look at it in the bigger context when you look at that history. I think we were at the beginning, and it was quite exciting to see it evolve. Amilia Matheson: (20:59) Okay, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to male students? Ernest Tannis: (21:13) Well, the expectations, sadly, was not just about in the classrooms but in the bedrooms. So, that to me was very disheartening and I dare to say there was a couple of women that made themselves available and that didn't help. I mean that part of the experience was not that comfortable. There was even, with married people, there was like you're here in you’re in law school and you’re not at home, so I think the that part of the human (22:00) journey was not well respected as much as it should have been. So, that part of the law school experience did not sit well with me, but I guess there's a lot of pressure on certain women to do certain things and most of them kept their integrity, but there was sort of a expectations that were very male-orientated that still prevailed I think. That was a challenge for sure, and I think those are the old days, but in that time it was some tension around that. Amilia Matheson: (22:42) In the 1970s were there uOttawa programs, departments, or clubs where women were less present and accepted than others? Ernest Tannis: (23:05) Well actually that’s a really interesting question. I would say it was not official that they were not accepted. I remember going to a number of events where there was an impression left that you're not welcome. It was kind of going to be an all-males, and you know technically, the door was open to women, but the signal was you’re not welcome, and I didn't like that part either. And some women that actually tried to crash some events because they thought that was unacceptable, so that created some interesting evenings. There was one in particular they were trying to convince this woman not to come, and she said “well I'm a member of the university, I'm going to last school. Why can't I come in?” And she threatened to (24:00) bring a whole bunch of women if they didn't let her in. I remember she was very daring. Yeah so that was not easy for, I think, women at that time. It's not like that today. But they were trying to make some breakthroughs. Amilia Matheson: (24:16) Okay, so we've hit the halfway point. We're moving on to the third of four sections, and this section is on ideology and generational differences. So, the main statement is: historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture movement meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents’ generation. And so, my first question is: to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? Ernest Tannis: (24:51) Well, I would think my first reaction is that would be the top item in the agenda, you know, we’re the next generation. We're in our 20s. We have a lot of history in our own families, and our own culture, and our own country, and our world. We're in law school. It's all supposed to be about the access to justice to try to get beyond the legality, and the formality, and history of the law to look at the purpose of the law. So, as this song says that, “justice is just us,” I think there was a feeling that our generation can come out and make a contribution, not just to enrich how the system works, but how the soul of the system works. So, I think that there was a feeling that, you know, we could have that opportunity and we felt emboldened because we're the first class in Fauteux Hall, and we were historic, and we're in this wonderful University of Ottawa which is a wonderful university (26:00) of phenomenal history… a lot to be proud of, and it works well with all the other universities and colleges. So the idea of collaboration among academic institutions was inspiring for me, even with the colleges and others, so I think that it was kind of a lofty ambition to come out and do something that would make the general public feel comfortable with not just the legal system, but with lawyers and that we're not just the butt of lawyers jokes, but we have some aspirations that are beneficial for society as a whole… to come out with a larger role of thinking except how much Billings do you do every month and I never once docketed my time in my 47 year history. I never once did that, I just said, “right, here's what I think would cost and what can you afford.” So I think that's a good question. It sort of brings that out to me. Amilia Matheson: (27:08) Alright, to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender family and dating were outdated? Ernest Tannis: (27:21) Well, they were not only outdated, they were out of this world. It was hard to even relate to that thinking. It was like you can't believe you were brought up by people that were like that, but, you know, for me I'm trying to respect my elders, and they all came from another form of upbringing that we have no idea about, and you know, some of them are Muslim, especially in Canada, I mean Canada is a multicultural society, right? Like a sociologist wrote, you know the States is the melting pot, well we have in Canada a set of people from around the world. (28:00) We were in our generation, we were either the second, or third, or fourth, or fifth generation of immigrants. So we have no idea, like, what it was like to be brought up in all these other countries and the rigidity of the cultures and the rules especially between men and women, and then they come to this society with a whole different set of rules, and trying to get rid of stereotypes that everyone is equal before the law. So I think, for me anyway it was like, yeah we're distant, but we are inheriting a culture. And I learned eventually from the native people, who always say that whatever we say, and do, and think will affect the next seven generations. So, we are the 7th generation of people from the past that we have no, like really, idea what it was like for them to grow up, so you can't judge. You just can grow and respect the best of what they bring and realize they were limited, and then we're going to do the same thing for us being the beginning of the next seven generations. That's the way I saw it, so it was kind of a balance. Amilia Matheson: (29:13) Okay, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair, and responsive to citizens needs at that time? Ernest Tannis: (29:24) I don't think it ever has been in history. And not at that time, I mean, politics is an adversarial system that has its own objectives and agendas. Some people wanted me to go into politics, and I couldn't do that, I mean, we need it we need a political system, that’s clear. We need all sorts of systems, but I kind of became apolitical. Even within universities, and all the politics in universities in terms of getting to know people running for office, (30:00) but we need the system to create an interaction of different stakeholders. So, I kind of respected that, and a lot of them did this for very genuine reasons. Some did it for other reasons but only God knows the intentions of people, but I felt the politics, not just generally in society, but even in the university was really difficult to comprehend because the different agendas even with faculty and other players in the university all had their own ambitions which affects your life. It affects how you study, how you graduate, how you get through. I know in one class I said something which was supposed to be funny, but was caused some political upheaval, and the professor was very upset with me. And I did graduate with Cum Laude, the only reason I didn't get Magna Cum Laude was because this professor went and gave me a mark under 70. To get a Magna Cum Laude, you have to get an average whatever… 75, 80 with no mark under 70. He gave me 69, but it was because he politically did not like a comment I made. So, I found that even at that level, politics affected fair judgment of people and if you weren't politically correct you would have consequences like I did with this professor who eventually later on apologized to me, but it didn't matter it was just understanding. I said, “well you had your political position but why did you bring it into the law class?” Like, I had a very valid question… I won't bore you with the question, but it was a valid question. Although it was, as I always do, put it in kind of a funny context, but it was about a question. So, I don't think it was just politics in society, I think that politics in universities need to be looked at. (31:55) (End of part 1 of interview) ... (Start of part 2 of interview) Amilia Matheson: (0:07) All right so… we are in our final section and the section is on dating. Ernest Tannis: Sorry, on what? Amilia Matheson: Dating. Ernest Tannis: Dating… D-A-T-I-N-G ? Amilia Matheson: Oh yeah! Ernest Tannis: What's that [joking]? Amilia Matheson: (0:28) We'll introduce it. Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating in the early 70s. So, my first question is: do you agree with that statement? Ernest Tannis: (0:52) In retrospect I agree with it, I was married at the time and went to law school believe it or not, I mean, it was a very young marriage, and my wife took birth control pills. So, her parents did not agree with that. Her father was a minister and there was a kind of a conflict about that. So, that generation was in conflict, I think of the parents’ generation especially if they're these religious tenants. So, that was a problem, and whether or not she really did I don't know because in second year law school my son was born. So I was father during law school and we're living in another city, and I have to come back and forth on weekends. So, in my recollection, when you asked these questions it opened up a kind of a promiscuousness among (2:00) relationships which I don't think was healthy, you know, abortion is not something that I, you know, except for, you know, like a rape or health of the mother, that kind of stuff, Just if the pill doesn't work, you can have an abortion to me is not spiritually consistent with anybody, you know, everybody follows their own rules. but that was coming. That was there. So I think it increased promiscuity in a very unhealthy way, and I think that it permeated the university students… that age group at that time… not for the good. So it created a lot of problems which we probably still live with today but now people have to find another type of community to avoid all that stuff. So I didn't… I think it was a kind of an excitement about breaking the old rules and having freedom to do what you want to do, and like in that famous movie when the the adult daughter was doing this and doing that… was the name of that movie… and she's said, “you're free,” and the father said, “yeah you're free to do this. You're free to do that. All of the sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll” and then he says, “and you're free to go to hell.” So, I think that movie kind of set the tone of the generational conflict. The name of that movie escapes me right now, but it was about right on point with your question. Amilia Matheson: (3:55) Alright, what did dating look like at uOttawa (4:00) in the 70s? What was the... procedure? Ernest Tannis: (4:04) I was only an observer because I mean, I you know, never had anything pre-marriage. I was not involved with things, so I'm not kind of the right person to ask about that. But I saw it going on quite a bit, and then, you know, one month somebody's dating somebody and then they're dating somebody else that was like, what’d we say what was the right word… it was like a social orgy, you know. There didn't seem to be the same set of guidelines that you hear about or learned about. It kind of was almost the beginning of a free for all which I could not relate to, but a lot of people got involved with that. So I was more like an observer and there was… I think there might have been a couple of times within that era of the law class and everything, and the articling that I think I did get swept up with a couple of events that I’m not happy with… nothing that caused any danger, but it was against my principles. But it was like a group… became like a group thing. So, I think a lot of people went along with stuff that they probably knew was not good idea, but it seemed like that was what was happening and you gotta connect… so, I found that uncomfortable. Amilia Matheson: (5:54) How did your generation look at family and marriage? Ernest Tannis: (6:00) Well I think that was the beginning when the most people were not looking at family and marriage, you know, I don't think. There were people in our class that were students that already were married and even had their kids, but by and large the furthest thing that I thought was on anyone's mind was family and marriage. It was like this is the generation of everyone's gonna carve out their own niche, they're gonna be professional, gonna have a career… the priorities were not like the old days at all. Even though there was only a few women there were still… and that grew over the years actually even more in the law school, and then next year, and the next year. Before we left, there was more women every year coming in, but I think the priorities were more in terms of what can you do with your own life and there's not a lot of talk about the need to get, you know, get married and, you know, dating was… sometimes people were committed to a certain dating, but there was that was not necessarily the case. So, I don't think that that idea was a prevalent idea at the time… the idea of family and marriage and stuff. And it was really, you know, you put yourself in the position it's very expensive to go to university. Some of us got student loans, unlike others in their class with a lot of wealthy parents. I didn't get a cent from my father. It was really tough actually at Carlton, I had to quit for a year because there was no money. So it was really… and I was the first person in my family to even go to a post-secondary school. I was first one to go to university. So, you know you're really focused… the focus was just getting in, getting by, getting graduated. (8:00) So I don't think that those… for me it was a little too late because I already had a son, and then we had a daughter, and now they have their own children and it's wonderful… they're all doing well. Amilia Matheson: (8:12) That's awesome. Okay, we're on our final question, and this question is: to what extent did members of your parents’ generation worry about this dating culture and premarital sex? Ernest Tannis: (8:27) Well, my general reflective impression is that the prior generation gave up on the next generation. They didn't see any more limitations, or general principles of a certain culture being honored. In some cultures it always imposed on women to be a certain way or to do certain things, and those cultures still are around, but back then, I think… I'm not sure if I'm answering your question as well as I should. I’m just trying to reflect. You want to repeat the question? Maybe something else will come to me. Amilia Matheson: (9:22) Sure. To what extent did members of your parents’ generation worry about this dating culture that you described and about premarital sex? Ernest Tannis: (9:31) Okay, so it comes to me now I heard it again. They weren't worried about it… they gave up on us. Just free for all, and I think it dismayed some of the previous generation to see that, but they figured that's the way the world is, and there's nothing they can do about it. There was conflict between the generations (10:00) too for sure and pretty serious consequences, and some of them some of the cultures, you know, some of the women would be killed for deviating from the norm. And there was other consequences to other people, so there was a lot of negative side effects about that, but I think that what I said… I think it wasn't… they just gave up on the next generation so they just had to let it go. Amilia Matheson: (10:36) Okay well, that was my last formal question. Do you have anything else to add before I stop the recording about your experience at the University of Ottawa while you were a student there? Ernest Tannis: (10:50) Well lately I was asked to give a presentation on gratitude and it's a beautiful word. It's very biblical, it's very spiritual, but it's also very practical, and I think we should all be grateful that we had a chance in this part of the world to have such an education. To have dedicated faculty, and Deans, and administrators that want us to succeed, and created a safe environment that we can do the best that we can in our life. So, I think it's really important that all alumni express gratitude to all of those who made the university work in so many levels and still do to this day. Even the current crop of the Dean and the faculty, and to be… and the law schools are seen by many many people still not being up to date with the (12:00) complete adaptation to new ways of doing problem solving, I mean the lawyers and the law profession are gonna go the same, as AI is going to take over a lot of stuff. And a lot of the teaching is to… when former chief judge of the Court of Appeal in Quebec when I was on a panel not long ago, four years ago, said, “publicly I give up on law schools.” There's so many things happening on the ground in a practitioner's way that are not necessarily being taught in law schools and as they should be, and part of my quest for the last 2-3 decades and even now is to try to contribute to improving that. So, the gratitude is the one thing I think should be a prevalent theme by all alumni from the University of Ottawa and that includes specifically for us in the Commonlaw department. (13:08) Transcription Translation Amilia Matheson : La première section porte sur la culture populaire. Les historiens de la culture soutiennent que la télévision, la musique populaire hollywoodienne et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se côtoyaient. Notre première question est donc la suivante : il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne au cours des années 1970. Comment s'organisait votre temps libre, ou que faisaient les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, à part l'alcool... c'était très répandu... même parmi certains professeurs et le doyen, mais cela semblait être un thème assez répandu tout au long de l'école de droit, c'était l'alcool et trop souvent l'intoxication. Je veux dire qu'un soir, l'un de nos amis ou collègues étudiants a décidé de photocopier ses fesses et s'est assis sur la photocopieuse... il a dû aller à l'hôpital et c'est un cas extrême, mais c'est quelque chose dont nous nous souvenons ; c'est que même en conduisant, certains d'entre nous venaient de l'extérieur de la ville : Je veux dire qu'il s'agissait d'étudiants en droit qui buvaient et conduisaient encore. Le comportement n'était donc pas aussi bon qu'il aurait dû l'être, et cela concernait les relations entre les personnes. Ce n'était donc pas... Je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de... ils étaient comme les hippies des années 70, mais nous étions des étudiants en droit. Mais c'était une façon de gérer le stress de l'école de droit, car c'était très stressant. Je crois que je vous ai parlé de l'entrée à l'école de droit, il y avait plus de mille candidats... ils n'en ont choisi qu'une centaine, et le premier jour, le doyen a placé dix d'entre nous et son bureau n'a pas dit "félicitations". Il nous a dit "regardez autour de vous... 40% d'entre vous ne seront pas là l'année prochaine", puis il a dit "lisez un article, la bonne école de droit fait échouer 40% de ses étudiants", a-t-il dit, "même si vous réussissez la deuxième ou la troisième année". Il y a donc beaucoup de pression, une pression très stricte. Mais en fin de compte, après de nombreuses années de travail, nous n'avons obtenu que soixante-cinq personnes sur cent et quelques [diplômés]. Les gens disaient, eh bien, nous nous sommes préparés pour les gens difficiles... nous disions que nous vous préparions pour une profession difficile. C'était donc un environnement auquel je ne m'attendais pas et auquel je n'étais pas habitué. Cela vous donne la parole... nous pensions que c'était amusant et que c'était la façon dont ils géraient tout, et il n'y avait aucune marge de manœuvre en termes d'examens ou de travaux. À l'époque, le dernier examen comptait pour 100 % de la note, et c'était un examen ouvert, vous pouviez apporter des choses. Mais vous étiez juste... vous regardiez par-dessus votre épaule. Je pense donc qu'en termes de réflexion, c'était un environnement très stressant, et c'était toujours agréable de se sentir capable de passer à l'année suivante sans savoir ce qui se passait, et puis on voyait des gens qui avaient des crises cardiaques et le stress... il y avait une femme en particulier qui avait une licence, un master, un A plus plus, et elle n'a pas réussi, et elle est devenue... elle s'est en quelque sorte effondrée. J'ai donc vu beaucoup de produits abîmés, mais ceux... nous en avons profité - j'ai toujours plaisanté pendant mes études de droit. Je plaisantais en classe et c'est comme ça qu'on s'en est sorti. Je ne sais pas si cela répond en partie à votre question, mais c'est ce qui m'est venu à l'esprit lorsque vous l'avez posée. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'électronique, c'est vrai, et nous avions un gars en particulier qui était devenu le génie ambulant et nous faisions tous la queue pour lui poser des questions. Une chose que nous faisions, c'est que nous avions des groupes d'étude qui étaient vraiment bons. Nous nous réunissions officiellement pour des groupes d'étude et nous apprenions les uns des autres, mais nous devions rester au courant du matériel. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, parfait, c'est une excellente réponse... exactement ce que je cherchais, merci. J'ai quelques questions complémentaires pour ce thème, si vous avez des informations sur ces petites questions, elles sont plus spécifiques. D'accord, quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur ? Ernest Tannis : Je vais réfléchir. Eh bien, certainement les bars locaux. Je pense que vous me rafraîchissez la mémoire, mais je crois que nous avons apprécié la bibliothèque. Nous avons trouvé que la bibliothèque était très calme et que nous pouvions y faire nos recherches. Les gens n'avaient pas le droit de parler, ce qui nous permettait de nous concentrer. Je me souviens donc du temps que nous passions à la bibliothèque. Souvent, nous étions ensemble, ou si nous pouvions aller dans un endroit où nous pouvions passer des notes ou autre chose. Mais nous faisions des recherches ensemble, nous nous assurions que les lectures obligatoires étaient toutes faites, et parfois il y avait des lectures facultatives. Parfois, s'il y avait beaucoup de lectures à faire, nous utilisions nos spots pour lire certaines choses à tour de rôle, puis nous débriefions avec les autres [au lieu] de faire lire une seule chose à tout le monde. Nous avons donc développé un groupe très collectif. Je pense que nous avions environ cinq étudiants ou plus dans chaque groupe, et c'était une bonne chose. C'est ce que je pense de cette bibliothèque. Pour moi, c'était ma deuxième maison. J'adorais la bibliothèque. J'adore les livres. Je voulais être bibliothécaire, pas avocate. Mais bon, c'est une autre histoire. D'autres endroits où nous allions essayaient de faire... des activités de groupe comme le théâtre, ou des pièces, ou vous savez. Nous essayions de socialiser en tant que groupe, et certains d'entre nous apprenaient à mieux connaître les autres, d'autres se tenaient à l'écart de certaines personnes parce qu'elles voulaient faire des choses qui n'étaient pas appropriées. Et puis il y a d'autres choses, et bien j'étais très portée sur le monde spirituel. Je l'ai toujours été, alors vous savez, certains d'entre nous allaient ensemble dans des lieux spirituels. J'aime aller dans tous les endroits différents : les mosquées, les synagogues, vous savez, là où les bouddhistes et les hindous se rencontrent, les chrétiens, les juifs. Je me souviens avoir essayé, une fois par semaine, d'amener certaines personnes à se rendre dans un lieu différent, parce qu'ils sont tous régis par des lois, le droit canon, vous savez, il y a le droit commun, le droit civil, la charia, mais il y a aussi le droit canon. Il est donc bon de savoir comment les religions perçoivent la loi. Et puis, Shakespeare a écrit : "Si les canons religieux sont cruels, que devrait être la guerre ?" C'est une autre chose qui me vient à l'esprit. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, parfait. Ottawa était une institution bilingue. Dans quelle mesure était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique dans les années 1970 ? Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient aux mêmes cours et participaient aux mêmes clubs ? Ernest Tannis : C'est une excellente question. Si je me souviens bien, les gens ne pouvaient pas à l'époque. Nous avons été la première école de droit au Fauteux Hall en 1971. C'est à cette époque qu'il a ouvert ses portes, et nous fêterons notre 50e anniversaire l'année prochaine. On peut donc toujours tout faire en anglais. Pour les francophones, je pense qu'à l'époque, ils pouvaient demander un peu de français, mais je ne me souviens pas que le corps professoral était entièrement bilingue. Je ne me souviens pas que cela ait été le cas, alors je pense que cela a été un facteur. Mais j'ai toujours pensé que la seule langue qui compte au monde est la langue de l'amour, et l'idée de ces langues verbales... comme si nous pouvions être trop piégés par les mots. Nous devrions travailler avec notre cœur, et je suppose que quelqu'un a dit qu'il s'était peut-être impliqué dans la loi pour essayer de l'humaniser, de lui apporter un peu d'humanisation. Mais essayer d'introduire le langage de l'amour dans la profession juridique et dans l'école de droit était un de mes objectifs et nous avions des conversations à ce sujet. La partie linguistique n'est donc pas un problème majeur, ce n'est pas un obstacle, et ce n'était pas nécessaire. Mais c'était dans l'air, c'est certain. Il y avait beaucoup de sensibilité pour assurer le respect de la langue française parce que c'est une université bilingue. Amilia Matheson : Que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je dirais qu'en général, toute cette génération était contre la guerre. Vous savez, je ne peux pas imaginer, quand vous regardez l'histoire et que vous regardez les protestations qui ont lieu maintenant, surtout avec les médias sociaux, et beaucoup de gens de hare krishna, avec tous les évadés et tous les cas de gens qui essayent d'être excusés de la guerre pour les objecteurs de conscience. C'est un aspect que j'ai trouvé intriguant, vous savez, les cas célèbres où les gens sont devenus des objecteurs de conscience et où ils ont été ridiculisés s'ils voulaient éviter le service, ce qui, vous le savez, et ces questions prévalent aujourd'hui. Mais je dirais que, dans l'ensemble, l'attitude des étudiants universitaires partout dans le monde était opposée à ce type d'intervention pour de nombreuses raisons, pas seulement politiques, intellectuelles et philosophiques. Il s'agissait de militaires et de quelqu'un d'autre qui contrôlait votre vie, et il ne semblait ni raisonnable ni juste que quelqu'un puisse vous demander d'aller tuer un autre être humain. Mais la guerre est parfois nécessaire, c'est une tuerie... cette tuerie n'est pas un problème. C'est un meurtre, et tuer est généralement justifié pour protéger sa famille, ses biens et sa nation, ce que nous avons fait dans l'histoire et ce que nous faisons encore, mais cette guerre n'a pas eu d'écho. Je ne pense pas que cette génération ait été touchée par cette guerre. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, je pense que j'ai encore deux questions pour cette section et nous pourrons ensuite passer à la suivante. La première question est la suivante : dans les années 1960, les artistes du rock'n'roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme une simple forme de musique populaire ? Ernest Tannis : Ils ne le comprenaient pas. Je ne pense pas qu'ils aient essayé de comprendre ce que c'était. C'était un peu comme une langue étrangère. Il n'y avait pas de dialogue, ils ne voulaient pas apprendre cette langue. Nous parlions cette langue et ils nous disaient que ça ne les dérangeait pas, que nous étions trop vieux pour apprendre une nouvelle langue. Il y avait donc un véritable fossé générationnel à ce sujet. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, et pour cette dernière question, si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise pour y répondre, vous n'êtes pas obligés de parler de votre expérience personnelle ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, mais la question est la suivante : certaines voix de la culture des jeunes des années 70 encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur le campus ? Ernest Tannis : Trop. D'ailleurs, je vous l'ai dit lors de notre dernière discussion, il n'y a jamais de dernière question, il n'y a que la suivante. Je n'ai jamais consommé de drogues. Un soir, quelqu'un m'a demandé d'essayer, et apparemment, c'était très drôle, mais je ne me souviens plus très bien du reste de la nuit. Quelqu'un me donnait des biscuits parce que je ne pouvais pas fumer... J'ai essayé, mais je n'arrivais pas à m'y faire, mais j'ai constaté que sur le campus, c'était assez répandu, ouvertement ou secrètement. Je n'arrivais pas à m'y faire, et il y avait beaucoup de fêtes où l'on pouvait se rendre, et il y avait plus de drogues que d'alcool. J'ai parfois eu des problèmes parce que je l'inhalais. Mais les gens semblent s'ouvrir davantage lorsqu'ils sont sous l'emprise de la drogue, vous savez, ils semblent être capables de faire sortir des choses, et j'ai toujours été sobre à cet égard, ce qui m'a permis de devenir un auditeur actif. J'ai donc beaucoup appris. Les gens se livrent beaucoup, vous savez, sur leurs frustrations ou leurs préoccupations, et il semble que ce soit un ingrédient nécessaire pour que certaines personnes s'en sortent. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, merci. D'accord, notre deuxième section porte sur l'expérience féminine. La question d'ouverture est la suivante : les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? Ernest Tannis : Bien sûr. C'est une excellente question, vous savez, la personne qui a rédigé ces questions sait de quoi elle parle. Amilia Matheson : J'ai participé à la rédaction de ces questions ! Ernest Tannis : Très bien ! L'une des choses qui nous a tous frappés, c'est que sur plus d'un millier de candidats, la majorité était des hommes. Il y avait encore pas mal de femmes, nous n'en connaissions pas le nombre exact, mais elles étaient assez nombreuses. Mais sur les cent et quelques personnes acceptées, et lorsque vous regardez à la fin de la journée, sur les 65 diplômés, il n'y avait que cinq femmes. Si l'on compare ce chiffre à celui d'aujourd'hui, je sais que plus de 50 % des étudiants en droit sont des femmes. C'était une sorte de tension à l'époque. La profession a toujours été considérée, je pense, comme une profession dominée par les hommes depuis qu'elle a été créée au XVIIIe siècle et importée d'Angleterre. Mais je ne pense pas que les femmes, vous savez, aient été considérées comme le bon genre pour l'école de droit et les juges. La première femme juge au Canada remonte au début des années 1980, à la fin des années 1970. Il s'agit de la juge Roselie Abella, qui est devenue juge à la Cour d'appel et à la Cour suprême du Canada. Je vous ai parlé d'elle. Elle a apporté un soutien phénoménal à la justice sociale, mais elle et d'autres femmes comme elle ont fait des percées au Canada. Je pense que cela a aidé parce que si vous regardez sa carrière, en fait elle avait moins de 30 ans je pense, et elle était enceinte aussi, ce qui la rendait vraiment unique dans l'histoire du Canada. Des femmes comme elle et d'autres femmes dans la profession ont fait des percées, et cela a commencé à cette époque. Ainsi, la juge Abella, dont la carrière est incroyable, a rédigé le rapport de 1984 sur l'égalité pour tous, y compris les personnes handicapées, les personnes de couleur, etc. Je pense donc qu'à cette époque, les historiens de la culture devraient s'intéresser aux femmes qui ont fait ces progrès. C'était comme le mouvement des suffragettes. Il y avait des femmes bien connues pour avoir fait en sorte que les femmes puissent voter. À la fin des années 70, dans les années 80, mais surtout dans les années 70 lorsque nous y étions, des femmes ont fait des percées, y compris dans le corps enseignant et à d'autres postes de la société. J'ajouterais donc cela à l'ensemble des études sur le sujet, et je mettrais certainement la juge Rosalie Abella en tête de liste. Je pense qu'elles ont été une source d'inspiration pour les femmes de notre classe. C'était une source d'inspiration de voir des femmes accéder à ces postes. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, une question complémentaire : selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada au début des années 70 ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je suppose que les gens... Je veux dire que j'ai vu cette expression comme une évolution de la pensée. La femme qui a inventé cette expression, son nom m'échappe, mais elle a fini par ridiculiser la troisième vague du féminisme, etc. Il s'agissait donc d'une sorte de scission au sein du mouvement, et bien qu'elle ait tenté de mettre en place un concept d'intégration et d'égalité, elle a en fait créé beaucoup de divisions, j'ai trouvé, beaucoup de conflits. Nous ne sommes pas, vous savez, égaux et tout le reste, alors la femme qui a écrit le livre et a commencé, elle a fini par être ostracisée par le mouvement féministe parce qu'elle trouvait qu'il allait trop loin, et qu'il n'intégrait pas la pensée avec d'autres secteurs non seulement masculins, mais aussi avec d'autres secteurs de la société. Mais à l'époque, c'était ce que nous appelons la deuxième vague, nous sommes passés à la troisième vague, à la quatrième vague, puis le mouvement a été repris par un groupe... c'est ce que j'ai compris. Mais à l'époque, je me souviens qu'on appréciait que ce sujet soit pris en considération, je veux dire que je commençais à m'impliquer dans les questions de handicap et qu'il y avait beaucoup de problèmes liés à la justice. Dans le document de 1984, qui a fait date au Canada et qui a été accepté au Canada et dans d'autres pays de common law, une bonne partie des personnes défavorisées, et les femmes, étaient considérées comme faisant partie de ce groupe. Nous devons donc considérer les choses dans un contexte plus large lorsque l'on regarde l'histoire. Je pense que nous étions au début, et c'était très excitant de voir l'évolution. Amilia Matheson : Dans les années 1970, les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcées qu'aujourd'hui. En quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait-il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux des étudiants masculins dans les salles de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux ? Ernest Tannis : Malheureusement, les attentes ne concernaient pas seulement les salles de classe, mais aussi les chambres à coucher. J'ai trouvé cela très décourageant et j'ose dire que quelques femmes se sont rendues disponibles, ce qui n'a pas aidé. Je veux dire que cette partie de l'expérience n'était pas très confortable. Il y avait même, avec les personnes mariées, l'impression d'être ici, à la faculté de droit, et de ne pas être à la maison, alors je pense que cette partie du voyage humain n'a pas été respectée autant qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Je pense donc que cette partie du parcours humain n'a pas été respectée autant qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Cette partie de l'expérience de l'école de droit ne m'a pas plu, mais je suppose qu'il y a beaucoup de pression sur certaines femmes pour qu'elles fassent certaines choses et la plupart d'entre elles ont gardé leur intégrité, mais il y avait une sorte d'attente très orientée vers les hommes qui prévalait encore, je pense. C'était un défi, c'est certain, et je pense que c'est le bon vieux temps, mais à cette époque, il y avait une certaine tension autour de cela. Amilia Matheson : Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'Université d'Ottawa où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptées que d'autres ? Ernest Tannis : En fait, c'est une question très intéressante. Je dirais que ce n'est pas officiellement qu'ils n'ont pas été acceptés. Je me souviens avoir assisté à un certain nombre d'événements où l'on avait l'impression que les femmes n'étaient pas les bienvenues. Il s'agissait en quelque sorte d'un événement réservé aux hommes et, techniquement, la porte était ouverte aux femmes, mais le signal était que vous n'étiez pas les bienvenues, et je n'ai pas aimé cette partie non plus. Certaines femmes ont même essayé de s'incruster dans certains événements parce qu'elles pensaient que c'était inacceptable, ce qui a donné lieu à des soirées intéressantes. Lors d'une soirée en particulier, on a essayé de convaincre une femme de ne pas venir, et elle a dit : "Je suis membre de l'université, je vais à la dernière école. Pourquoi je ne peux pas venir ?" Et elle a menacé d'amener tout un tas de femmes s'ils ne la laissaient pas entrer. Je me souviens qu'elle était très audacieuse. Oui, ce n'était pas facile pour les femmes de l'époque. Ce n'est plus le cas aujourd'hui. Mais elles essayaient de faire des percées. Amilia Matheson : Nous sommes à mi-parcours. Nous passons à la troisième des quatre sections, qui porte sur l'idéologie et les différences générationnelles. L'affirmation principale est la suivante : les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le mouvement de la contre-culture, qui signifie que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Ma première question est donc la suivante : dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je pense que ma première réaction serait que ce soit le premier point à l'ordre du jour, vous savez, nous sommes la nouvelle génération. Nous avons une vingtaine d'années. Nous avons beaucoup d'histoire dans nos familles, dans notre culture, dans notre pays et dans notre monde. Nous sommes à la faculté de droit. Tout cela est censé concerner l'accès à la justice, pour essayer d'aller au-delà de la légalité, de la formalité et de l'histoire de la loi et de s'intéresser à l'objectif de la loi. Ainsi, comme le dit la chanson "justice is just us", je pense que nous avons eu le sentiment que notre génération pouvait apporter sa contribution, non seulement pour enrichir le fonctionnement du système, mais aussi pour en enrichir l'âme. Nous nous sommes sentis enhardis parce que nous étions la première classe dans le Fauteux Hall, que nous étions historiques et que nous étions dans cette merveilleuse Université d'Ottawa qui a une histoire phénoménale... dont nous pouvons être fiers, et qui travaille bien avec toutes les autres universités et collèges. L'idée d'une collaboration entre les institutions académiques m'a donc inspiré, même avec les collèges et autres, et je pense que c'était une grande ambition de faire quelque chose qui permettrait au grand public de se sentir à l'aise non seulement avec le système juridique, mais aussi avec les avocats, et que nous ne sommes pas seulement la cible des plaisanteries des avocats, mais que nous avons des aspirations qui sont bénéfiques pour la société dans son ensemble... de jouer un rôle plus important en pensant à autre chose qu'à combien de Billings vous faites chaque mois et je n'ai jamais enregistré mon temps en 47 ans d'existence. Je n'ai jamais fait cela, je me suis contenté de dire : "Bon, voici ce que je pense que cela coûterait et ce que vous pouvez vous permettre". Je pense donc que c'est une bonne question. C'est en quelque sorte ce qui me vient à l'esprit. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, elles n'étaient pas seulement dépassées, elles étaient hors du monde. C'était difficile de s'identifier à cette façon de penser. C'était comme si vous ne pouviez pas croire que vous aviez été élevé par des gens qui étaient comme ça, mais vous savez, moi j'essaie de respecter mes aînés, et ils venaient tous d'une autre forme d'éducation dont nous n'avons aucune idée, et vous savez, certains d'entre eux sont musulmans, surtout au Canada, je veux dire que le Canada est une société multiculturelle, n'est-ce pas ? Comme l'a écrit un sociologue, les États-Unis sont le creuset, et nous avons au Canada un ensemble de personnes originaires du monde entier. Dans notre génération, nous étions soit la deuxième, soit la troisième, soit la quatrième, soit la cinquième génération d'immigrants. Nous n'avons donc aucune idée de ce que c'était que d'être élevé dans tous ces autres pays et de la rigidité des cultures et des règles, en particulier entre les hommes et les femmes, et puis ils arrivent dans cette société avec un ensemble de règles complètement différent, et ils essaient de se débarrasser des stéréotypes selon lesquels tout le monde est égal devant la loi. Je pense donc que, pour moi en tout cas, c'était comme si, oui, nous sommes éloignés, mais nous héritons d'une culture. Et j'ai fini par apprendre des autochtones, qui disent toujours que tout ce que nous disons, faisons et pensons affectera les sept générations suivantes. Nous sommes donc la 7e génération de personnes du passé dont nous n'avons aucune idée de ce qu'a été leur enfance. On peut juste grandir et respecter le meilleur de ce qu'ils apportent et réaliser qu'ils étaient limités, et ensuite nous allons faire la même chose pour nous qui sommes le début des sept générations suivantes. C'est ainsi que je voyais les choses, c'était une sorte d'équilibre. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens à l'époque ? Ernest Tannis : Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais été dans l'histoire. Et pas à cette époque, je veux dire que la politique est un système contradictoire qui a ses propres objectifs et agendas. Certaines personnes voulaient que je me lance dans la politique, mais je ne pouvais pas le faire, car nous avons besoin d'un système politique, c'est clair. Nous avons besoin de toutes sortes de systèmes, mais je suis en quelque sorte devenu apolitique. Même au sein des universités, et toute la politique qui s'y déroule en termes de connaissance des personnes qui se présentent aux élections, mais nous avons besoin d'un système pour créer une interaction entre les différentes parties prenantes. J'ai donc respecté cela, et beaucoup d'entre eux l'ont fait pour des raisons très sincères. Certains l'ont fait pour d'autres raisons, mais Dieu seul connaît les intentions des gens, mais j'ai eu le sentiment que la politique, non seulement dans la société en général, mais aussi à l'université, était vraiment difficile à comprendre parce que les différents agendas, même ceux des professeurs et des autres acteurs de l'université, avaient tous leurs propres ambitions, ce qui a une incidence sur votre vie. Cela affecte la façon dont vous étudiez, la façon dont vous obtenez votre diplôme, la façon dont vous vous en sortez. Je sais que dans un cours, j'ai dit quelque chose qui était censé être drôle, mais qui a provoqué des bouleversements politiques, et le professeur était très en colère contre moi. Et j'ai obtenu mon diplôme avec Cum Laude, la seule raison pour laquelle je n'ai pas obtenu Magna Cum Laude, c'est que ce professeur m'a donné une note inférieure à 70. Pour obtenir un Magna Cum Laude, il faut avoir une moyenne de... 75, 80 sans note inférieure à 70. Il m'a donné 69, mais c'était parce qu'il n'avait pas apprécié un commentaire que j'avais fait. J'ai donc découvert que même à ce niveau, la politique affectait le jugement équitable des gens et que si vous n'étiez pas politiquement correct, vous en subissiez les conséquences, comme je l'ai fait avec ce professeur qui s'est finalement excusé plus tard, mais cela n'avait pas d'importance, c'était juste de la compréhension. Je lui ai dit : "Vous aviez votre position politique, mais pourquoi l'avoir introduite dans le cours de droit ?". J'avais une question très valable... Je ne vais pas vous ennuyer avec la question, mais c'était une question valable. Même si, comme je le fais toujours, je l'ai placée dans un contexte assez drôle, il s'agissait d'une question. Je ne pense donc pas qu'il s'agisse uniquement de politique dans la société, je pense qu'il faut se pencher sur la politique dans les universités. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, donc... nous en sommes à la dernière section, qui porte sur les relations amoureuses. Ernest Tannis : Pardon, sur quoi ? Amilia Matheson : Les relations amoureuses. Ernest Tannis : Les relations amoureuses... D-A-T-I-N-G ? Amilia Matheson : Ah oui ! Ernest Tannis : Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Amilia Matheson : Nous allons le présenter. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les fréquentations au début des années 70. Ma première question est donc la suivante : êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? Ernest Tannis : Rétrospectivement, je suis d'accord, j'étais marié à l'époque et j'allais à l'école de droit, croyez-le ou non, je veux dire que c'était un mariage très jeune, et ma femme prenait la pilule contraceptive. Ses parents n'étaient pas d'accord. Son père était pasteur et il y avait une sorte de conflit à ce sujet. Cette génération était donc en conflit, je pense à la génération des parents, surtout s'ils sont religieux. C'était donc un problème, et je ne sais pas si elle l'a vraiment fait, car mon fils est né en deuxième année de droit. J'étais donc père pendant mes études de droit et nous vivions dans une autre ville, et je devais faire des allers-retours le week-end. L'avortement n'est pas quelque chose que je, vous savez, sauf en cas de viol ou de santé de la mère, ce genre de choses, mais si la pilule ne marche pas, vous pouvez avorter, pour moi, ce n'est pas spirituellement cohérent avec qui que ce soit, vous savez, chacun suit ses propres règles. C'était déjà le cas. Je pense donc que cela a augmenté la promiscuité d'une manière très malsaine, et je pense que cela a imprégné les étudiants universitaires... ce groupe d'âge à cette époque... pas pour le bien. Cela a créé beaucoup de problèmes avec lesquels nous vivons probablement encore aujourd'hui, mais les gens doivent maintenant trouver un autre type de communauté pour éviter tout cela. Je pense que c'était une sorte d'excitation de briser les vieilles règles et d'avoir la liberté de faire ce que l'on veut, comme dans ce film célèbre où la fille adulte faisait ceci et cela... c'était le nom de ce film... et elle disait "tu es libre" et le père disait "oui, tu es libre de faire ceci, tu es libre de faire cela. Tu es libre de faire ça. Tout le sexe, les drogues, et le rock'n'roll" et puis il dit, "et tu es libre d'aller en enfer." Je pense que ce film a donné le ton du conflit générationnel. Le nom de ce film m'échappe, mais il correspondait parfaitement à votre question. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70 ? Ernest Tannis : Je n'étais qu'un observateur parce que je n'ai jamais rien eu avant le mariage. Je n'étais pas impliqué dans ces choses, alors je ne suis pas la bonne personne pour poser des questions à ce sujet. Mais j'ai vu que cela se passait assez souvent, et puis, vous savez, un mois quelqu'un sort avec quelqu'un et puis il sort avec quelqu'un d'autre qui est comme, comment dire, quel est le bon mot... c'était comme une orgie sociale, vous savez. Il ne semblait pas y avoir les mêmes règles que celles dont on entend parler ou que l'on apprend. C'était presque le début d'une liberté pour tous, ce que je ne pouvais pas comprendre, mais beaucoup de gens se sont engagés dans cette voie. J'étais donc plus un observateur et il y a eu... Je pense qu'il y a eu quelques fois, à l'époque des cours de droit et de tout le reste, et du stage, quelques événements qui m'ont déplu... rien qui n'ait causé de danger, mais c'était contraire à mes principes. Mais c'était comme un groupe... c'est devenu comme un truc de groupe. Je pense que beaucoup de gens ont accepté des choses dont ils savaient probablement que ce n'était pas une bonne idée, mais il semblait que c'était ce qui se passait et qu'il fallait se connecter... J'ai donc trouvé cela inconfortable. Amilia Matheson : Comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : Je pense que c'était au début que la plupart des gens ne s'intéressaient pas à la famille et au mariage, vous savez, je ne pense pas. Il y avait des étudiants dans notre classe qui étaient déjà mariés et qui avaient même des enfants, mais dans l'ensemble, je pense que la famille et le mariage étaient les choses les plus éloignées de l'esprit de tout le monde. C'était comme si c'était la génération où chacun allait se faire sa propre place, être professionnel, avoir une carrière... les priorités n'étaient pas du tout les mêmes qu'autrefois. Même s'il n'y avait que quelques femmes, il y en avait encore... et cela s'est développé au fil des ans, encore plus à la faculté de droit, puis l'année suivante, et l'année suivante. Avant notre départ, il y avait plus de femmes chaque année, mais je pense que les priorités étaient plus en termes de ce que l'on peut faire de sa propre vie et il n'y avait pas beaucoup de discussions sur la nécessité de se marier et, vous savez, les rencontres étaient... parfois les gens étaient engagés dans une certaine rencontre, mais ce n'était pas nécessairement le cas. Je ne pense pas que cette idée ait prévalu à l'époque... l'idée de la famille, du mariage, etc. Et c'était vraiment, vous savez, vous vous mettez dans la position où c'est très cher d'aller à l'université. Certains d'entre nous ont obtenu des prêts étudiants, contrairement à d'autres de leur classe dont les parents étaient riches. Je n'ai pas reçu un centime de mon père. J'ai dû démissionner pendant un an parce qu'il n'y avait pas d'argent. C'était vraiment... et j'ai été la première personne de ma famille à aller dans un établissement d'enseignement supérieur. J'ai été la première à aller à l'université. Donc, vous savez, vous vous concentrez vraiment... l'objectif était juste d'être admis, de s'en sortir, d'obtenir un diplôme. Alors je ne pense pas que ces... pour moi c'était un peu trop tard parce que j'avais déjà un fils, puis nous avons eu une fille, et maintenant ils ont leurs propres enfants et c'est merveilleux... ils se débrouillent tous bien. Amilia Matheson : C'est génial. Nous en sommes à la dernière question, qui est la suivante : dans quelle mesure les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient-ils de la culture des rencontres et des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, mon impression générale est que la génération précédente a abandonné la génération suivante. Elle ne voyait plus de limites, ni de principes généraux d'une certaine culture à respecter. Dans certaines cultures, on a toujours imposé aux femmes d'être d'une certaine manière ou de faire certaines choses, et ces cultures existent toujours, mais à l'époque, je pense... Je ne suis pas sûr de répondre à votre question aussi bien que je le devrais. J'essaie juste de réfléchir. Vous voulez répéter la question ? Peut-être que quelque chose d'autre me viendra. Amilia Matheson : Bien sûr. Dans quelle mesure les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient-ils de cette culture des rencontres que vous avez décrite et des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : D'accord, cela me revient maintenant que je l'ai entendu à nouveau. Ils ne s'inquiétaient pas... ils nous ont abandonnés. C'était la liberté pour tous, et je pense que cela a consterné certains membres de la génération précédente, mais ils se sont dit que le monde était ainsi fait et qu'ils ne pouvaient rien y faire. Il y a eu des conflits entre les générations et des conséquences assez graves, et dans certaines cultures, certaines femmes ont été tuées pour s'être écartées de la norme. Et il y avait d'autres conséquences pour d'autres personnes, donc il y avait beaucoup d'effets secondaires négatifs, mais je pense que ce que j'ai dit... je pense que ce n'était pas... ils ont simplement abandonné la génération suivante et ils ont dû laisser tomber. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, c'était ma dernière question formelle. Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter avant que j'arrête l'enregistrement à propos de votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa lorsque vous y étiez étudiant ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, dernièrement, on m'a demandé de faire une présentation sur la gratitude et c'est un mot magnifique. C'est un mot très biblique, très spirituel, mais aussi très pratique, et je pense que nous devrions tous être reconnaissants d'avoir eu la chance, dans cette partie du monde, de bénéficier d'une telle éducation. D'avoir des professeurs, des doyens et des administrateurs dévoués qui veulent que nous réussissions et qui ont créé un environnement sûr pour que nous puissions faire de notre mieux dans la vie. Je pense donc qu'il est très important que tous les anciens étudiants expriment leur gratitude à tous ceux qui ont permis à l'université de fonctionner à bien des égards et qui le font encore aujourd'hui. Même la génération actuelle de doyens et de professeurs, et d'être... et les écoles de droit sont considérées par beaucoup de gens comme n'étant toujours pas à jour avec l'adaptation complète aux nouvelles façons de résoudre les problèmes, je veux dire que les avocats et la profession juridique vont devenir les mêmes, car l'IA va prendre en charge beaucoup de choses. L'ancien juge en chef de la Cour d'appel du Québec, qui a participé à un panel il y a quatre ans, a déclaré : " publiquement, j'abandonne les facultés de droit ". Il y a tellement de choses qui se passent sur le terrain dans la pratique et qui ne sont pas nécessairement enseignées dans les facultés de droit comme elles devraient l'être, et une partie de ma quête au cours des deux ou trois dernières décennies et encore aujourd'hui est d'essayer de contribuer à l'amélioration de cette situation. Je pense donc que la gratitude est le thème qui devrait prévaloir chez tous les anciens étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa, y compris au sein du département de common law. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tannis, Ernest (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the early 1970s, including the social culture, the female experience, and generational ideology. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Relation A related resource "Interview with Ernest Tannis (Part 1)." Life on Campus. October 24, 2023. Video,<br />https://youtu.be/D-W-UjIp0O8?si=RgHMsLn6Rp-orTnr. "Interview with Ernest Tannis (Part 2)." Life on Campus. October 24, 2023. Video,<br />https://youtu.be/44EWjYoOAIg?si=b1I6-Ph9N40Y7gCV. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 32 minutes, 25 seconds (part 1); 13 minutes, 18 seconds (part 2) Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Counter culture Dating Drugs Gender Generational ideology Second wave feminism Sex Social life uOttawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gumboc, Reyana Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maxted, John Location The location of the interview Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Reyana Gumboc started transcription Reyana Gumboc 0:03Believe it's recording.OK.So the first main theme is the impact of popular culture and I have a statement here.A cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture, and Ottawa was a more bilingual institution.So we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together.And now here's a question.There were less electronics in society at the time.How is your leisure time structured?What do you do for fun in the 1970s? John Maxted 0:53I missed part of that question.How was what structured? Reyana Gumboc 0:56Your leisure time structured. John Maxted 0:57Later. Reyana Gumboc 0:59Yeah. John Maxted 1:01Well, I mean, I guess I have to start my answer to that question by stating that I didn't have a lot of leisure time.I mean, I had a couple of goals and at that point in time and these were lifetime goals and that was to establish myself as a doctor at that point in time.Although I became a family doctor, I didn't know that's what I would become. Reyana Gumboc 1:25Mm-hmm. John Maxted 1:26I was really most interested in graduating with an MD and then choosing or before that choosing what kind of specialty I'd like to go into.So I mean, I had spent the previous few years.Yeah, in preparation for beginning university, which started in 1968 and then ended in 1974 at the University of Ottawa.Umm I had started as a being very involved in trying to make enough money to be able to go to university and to attend university and to pay the costs that were associated, especially with medicine, which costs were usually a little higher.So even while I was getting ready to go to university, and even when I started university in 1968, I was holding down a few part time jobs.Umm.And and then when I started University, of course I I started in what was called the Pre Med medicine program at University of Ottawa and we were the last contingent of students that were allowed to start that program.The benefits of that program were tremendous.If I could keep my average at a certain level for the next two years, I was guaranteed a position in the program in medicine.When I started in 1970, which is exactly what happened, I was able to maintain my average and enjoy those first two years, which were kind of like a science program.And then went on to medicine.So I was devoting a lot of time to those objectives and quite frankly, I didn't have a lot of time for leisure activities that were our better social things going on in my life, some of them surrounding my church, some of them surrounding my friends. Reyana Gumboc 3:04Yeah. John Maxted 3:18But quite frankly, I was being driven by trying to get my education and trying to become what I wanted to become. Reyana Gumboc 3:25Sure.Yeah.So the next question is about hangout spots.So you would not usually hang out.What would you say were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? John Maxted 3:39Well, as time evolved I I mean I can't remember the first couple of years that I've mentioned to you as being the premed years, but most definitely in pre Med.We were still involved in the Faculty of Medicine because that was managed by the faculty in medicine and so as time evolved, we became more and more involved in what was called the ice Glapion Society, which was a club or association.I guess it would be more than a club in the basement.It physically was situated in the basement of the faculty and medicine on Nicholas Street in downtown Ottawa and and we used to we used to meet there a lot. Reyana Gumboc 4:12Well. John Maxted 4:18We would meet there between classes and we would have, you know, both familiar personal as well as professional and more formal educational discussions and questions.But it was kind of a place where we could let loose.Umm, I don't recall there ever being any alcohol served in that in that place, except there may have been an occasional party where we had some beer or something like that, but I can't even recall that. Reyana Gumboc 4:39Yeah. John Maxted 4:45But it was really I a collecting center where in medicine we could collect and and the share our thoughts and feelings and let loose a little bit.And I would say that that was primarily where where we had a lot of social interactions.There were some of my friends who met in the Albion, which was a nearby beer parlor down the street a little ways.I didn't usually go there myself, but some I knew I knew some of my friends went there sometimes. Reyana Gumboc 5:16OK, I think I've heard of the Albion, but I've never been.I don't know if it's still up.The next questions are about live music events.Seeing that you're such shown so you were so education driven, you probably didn't go too many live music events, did you?No. John Maxted 5:35No, it didn't.In fact, you know, one of the things that we did have that was an attraction at the university at the time where the gigis umm, that, that that was the football team and they're being a fan of football. Reyana Gumboc 5:37All right.Ohh yeah. John Maxted 5:48I did enjoy going to a few of the Gigi football games and so that was also an outlet for some relief from time to time. Reyana Gumboc 5:57Mm-hmm.So the next question here is about bilingualism.Uh, were there any integrated bilingual courses at the time or clubs? John Maxted 6:15No, there was.There was definitely no courses that I took that were I I don't know exactly how you're defining bilingualism, but there were no courses in French that I took at the time.The university obviously was trying to become more bilingual and trying to integrate French into the language of the university.I think it's succeeded more in the last several years than it did at that time, but it was certainly not.There was no animosity.There was no ill feelings about that happening.In fact, as a as a student within University of Ottawa, I welcome that opportunity because my French actually my languages skills had been one of my areas of excellence when I was in high school and I had received awards for that.So I was quite happy to be at a university where I may be forced to some extent to speak French, but quite frankly I wasn't forced very much and and when I was forced or when I had to understand French, the French language, I welcomed that opportunity.But unfortunately it wasn't to the extent that I ever became bilingual or became able to speak French fluently. Reyana Gumboc 7:30OK.Umm.By like bilingual, I mean like, umm, francophones and anglophones, enrolling in same courses and joining the same clubs.But did you know if any anglophones and francophones dated each other at the time?Like was that a thing? John Maxted 7:50I don't think there was any barrier or any question of that not being OK or not not being OK. Reyana Gumboc 7:54OK. John Maxted 7:57Umm, you know, we had French speaking ohm students in my class and I we made good friends and you know there was no, there was no feelings of one against the other.I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this questioning, but but it was never a consideration that there was a difference between French speaking or English speaking people. Reyana Gumboc 8:14Yeah. John Maxted 8:20We welcomed each other and we were great friends with each other. Reyana Gumboc 8:24Well, that's good.I think it's about the same now these aren't my questions.They're just given to me so everyone can read them out. John Maxted 8:30They're almost suggesting that there was a problem, but there was no problem at all. Reyana Gumboc 8:33Yeah. John Maxted 8:35In fact, it and I, I think the absence of a problem results in the absence of consideration to some extent, and it was no consideration as to whether we should promote one language over the other or one culture over the other. Reyana Gumboc 8:35Oh, that's good.Yeah.OK.And so moving on the next question is about party culture.Now you said that you aren't.You didn't really do that.Kind of stuff, but did you know anyone who did or how they would describe the priority John campus? John Maxted 9:08I think the party culture mainly, I mean, I've already told you about the escalating society and we did have a few parties there from time to time. Reyana Gumboc 9:16Umm. John Maxted 9:16Umm, I've also told you about the Albion Club where there was maybe occasional party.Umm, we would probably occasionally go to and then some of the students lived in Ottawa as I did too.I'm, but occasionally I think I mean, as with most classes, there were groups that formed within the class and so some of those groups would go out for an evening, either go out drinking or go out to each other's homes or something like this.Umm.I certainly had some close friends within the with within the class as well that I that I got closer to than I did. Reyana Gumboc 9:57Umm. John Maxted 9:57Last, but I can't recall that we actually had any particular venue that we frequented in order to party. Reyana Gumboc 10:08Alright, that's fine.And the next question is about the Vietnam War.Just what the student body thought about it.So the question is, what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? John Maxted 10:25Well, I have to tell you quite honestly that it was not.A big thing on our on our radar. Reyana Gumboc 10:32Mm-hmm. John Maxted 10:33Umm.In fact, I'm surprised by your question.Uh, it's almost a political question and I would say that at the time we didn't support the Vietnam War.We were concerned about the I'm just like today about the number of people that were being killed through the process and would have much preferred, a more peaceful resolution to that situation.But I also can't say that it was anything that was very high on our radar screen. Reyana Gumboc 11:11Well, probably today, wars are more like on the radar because of social media.So that's most likely a reason, but I'm I'm not gonna say definitively umm.And next question really different, but rock'n'roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest.Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? John Maxted 11:46Umm.That's a hard question to answer.I can't say that there was an awful lot of rock'n'roll going on within my parents family.Umm, but I think my I don't. Reyana Gumboc 12:01Umm. John Maxted 12:04I don't.I don't think there was any much of a question that there was a rebellious nature to rock'n'roll.It was something that was there and they just sort of accepted that.That's the way it was.And there was a new form of music, and I don't recall rebelliousness as being something that was.Promoted or abhorred or or?Recognized intensely in the rock'n'roll group.Again, a bit of a surprising question. Reyana Gumboc 12:39 Yeah, I was reading through a this script and a lot of them are kind of touchy and weird, but this next one is about recreational drugs.So to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus? John Maxted 13:00Well, I didn't go underground on campus.And so whether there was an underground phenomenon going on within the university, I'm not absolutely certain. Reyana Gumboc 13:04Umm. John Maxted 13:12Umm, I would say that you know it's not a drug, but the greatest prominence back in the 1970s was alcohol itself. Reyana Gumboc 13:12Umm. John Maxted 13:20And as students, we were just becoming drinkers of alcohol and that was kind of the latest craze.And so every time we wanted to enjoy ourselves, it was alcohol that would come into the party.Umm, I don't even recall anything about cannabis at that point in time.I don't think cannabis came on strong until later and I can't remember my friends ever getting into that kind of thing, nor can I remember.Certainly getting into opioids or any of those other kinds of medications which are available now on the underground market. Reyana Gumboc 14:03Umm, umm, alright.Thank you.The next theme is about the female experience.Obviously you're a man, so you might not be able to answer these questions to your full ability, but umm.There's a statement here.Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers.Does this argument resonate with your experience on campus at the time? John Maxted 14:43The question is a bit like.Some of your earlier questions and that it makes certain assumption based on today's culture, today's gender disparity to today's inequalities.Today's diversity that has challenges in itself.And so it's a little hard to answer your question because.A lot of these issues that you're referring to became issues later on.In fact, many, many years later, and it's only within the last five to 10 years, that's that some of the issues you're talking about became issues that were obvious to the general populace.And so back in 1970s, I would not say that gender issues were concerned.I did not perceive at that time that if this is an answer to your question that women were sort of trying to fight their way into society, but it was there nevertheless. Reyana Gumboc 15:42OK. John Maxted 15:44I mean, there was no denying that, you know, for example, going years back that there had been a fight for women to be able to vote even, and it was that kind of thing.That was continuing to work its way into society.Was there questions about the degree to which women were involved?While absolutely, I mean there was still issues then about, you know, how many if if females is the right word, I should be using how many females were in the class versus males.How many females were going into medicine versus males?There was still that stuff going on very much so I wouldn't say that it was given as much attention at that time as it is now, but nevertheless, I can't think of it time in my life when there hasn't been a comparison between the genders in terms of their promotion or their ability to make inroads into different aspects of life in society. Reyana Gumboc 16:47Will you answer some of the questions that I have here about women in clubs and departments?So you'd say women were less represented in or like less present in science STEM programs. John Maxted 17:04Yes, I was choosing a profession in choosing medicine through science that was.Predominated by males?Umm, thankfully it's made a change. Reyana Gumboc 17:14Mm-hmm. John Maxted 17:17In fact, it seems to be the other way around right now, but nevertheless, at that time, umm, women were definitely trying to.I wouldn't.I don't know whether they were trying to, but they were increasing their involvement in science and medicine. Reyana Gumboc 17:37Awesome.Uh, sorry, I'm just reading the questions.Umm this one is about the treatment of women in classrooms where they necessarily different ways, different treatment or expectations in classroom or at social events for women compared to male students. John Maxted 18:01Again, a reflection of some of my early answers, but also a reflection of some of the things I was thinking earlier that I had forgotten about to mention. Umm.Your question.You know, it's almost taken in light of what's happened since then, and I think that the way we treated women then and the way we included women in, umm, events and and organizations and meetings and all that sort of stuff, the assumptions we made about a woman's role in what we were doing were ones that would probably be found at fault at this point in time, in our culture, we didn't think of them as that at that point in time because they were not identified as such.And so for us, it was not a problem.We didn't think we were hurting women or that we were.There was no intention behind it.Put it that way, it's hard for me to find some of these words and not to cotton, not to misrepresent the situation. Reyana Gumboc 19:03Yeah. John Maxted 19:09But there was no intention behind our thinking or our language or the way we behaved.But I suspect if you were to look at it in present day terms, which is what your question where your questions seem to be coming from, then probably there would be things to find at fault with the way we behaved, the way we treated women, the way we included in them in in what we were doing.But I can't think of, quite frankly.And honestly, I can't think of any examples at this point in time where I think, yeah, that was a situation where we were very mean to the female sex or, you know, we should have treated them better or something like that.Some of those things, as with a lot of cultural issues in the 19 and the 2000s.Had to be pointed out to us over the years for us to recognize, and then I would have to go back and reflect on well, did we do something that was not quite the way it should have been?And quite frankly, I've not been challenged with that question up until now.Yeah. Reyana Gumboc 20:11Well, that's that's good for me.I wrote that down. Umm.The next main question is about ideology and generational differences.Umm, historians have written a lot about what they call counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents.To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just or better world? John Maxted 20:47I I was.I was actually not a participant in in any mobilization.Uh, initiative that I can recall.Umm, that's at a group level at a personal level.Umm, I recognize that was part of what I would have called at that point in time in the 70s, the newest generation, just like the the generations have they evolved since then.You know we, we we call them all sorts of things.Generations zed and X and everything else that we we keep calling them.And so, yes.I'm I and my associates friends.We certainly had our own way of thinking things.We had our own beliefs, which some, many of which some of which were different than our parents, some of which were different than those who are older than us.I'm and I can't say that there was a huge reaction.We just sort of went their own ways and our parents just like the parents of today, accepted that the younger generation thought differently and and they accepted that and tried to integrate that with family life, with social life and with the general life life in general. Reyana Gumboc 22:08Yeah.Well, generally children will like try to be different from their parents, move away from that.Umm, but to what extent did the generation of your time believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were updated? John Maxted 22:35I think I think that, I mean again it was not.An obvious discussion with my associates or friends that they were outdated and we were gonna act differently.We just did. Reyana Gumboc 22:49Yeah. John Maxted 22:49Umm.And and we didn't go home and say, oh, by the way, mom and dad, I just acted differently.Or I just did something that you wouldn't agree with or disagree with, or something like this. Reyana Gumboc 22:59Yeah. John Maxted 23:00I mean, it was and we didn't try to create a big movement around it and and try to react but as with.Many evolutions in society, as it became more obvious that we were behaving that way and doing that way, and and doing it that way.Umm, the discussion became broader and perhaps we got to the point where we were more comfortable in having the discussion with our parents.But we didn't tell our parents or our older folks everything that we were doing.We just did it because that's what we wanted to do or that's what we thought was OK to do. Reyana Gumboc 23:38Yeah.Umm.So looking back at the 1970s, what aspect as of Canadian society did you see, as in need of fixing? John Maxted 23:59Ah, that's a hard question to answer too. Umm. Reyana Gumboc 24:03Sorry, just hitting you question after question. John Maxted 24:09I mean, politics has always been something that I've paid a lot of attention to and and being in Ottawa, uh, I've always said, in fact, I'm writing my memoirs right now and one of my paragraphs is on how when we were in Ottawa, we always had a national perspective. Reyana Gumboc 24:16Yeah. John Maxted 24:26We never had a provincial or territorial perspective living in Ottawa and so as a national perspective, it was always, you know, what we like or don't like about Canada and and at that time, I think that generally speaking, the feeling amongst most of my associates and myself was that we were very thankful we were in Canada.We were very thankful for the culture, the society, the liberties, the way of life, the security, everything we had at that time. Reyana Gumboc 24:50Umm. John Maxted 25:03We were thankful for those things.We.Yes, we took them for granted to some extent, the way people do nowadays, but we probably didn't fight about them as much then as they do nowadays.And yet politics will still very important the party in power was still very important to us.You know whether it was Diefenbaker and Pearson in those days, or whether it was Trudeau, Pierre Trudeau, that came a little bit later.Those were things that we often discussed and we had our likes and dislikes about the policies that they adhere to.I can't remember anything specific at this point in time.Politically with regards to that and those days, but nevertheless, there were certainly things that were going on. Reyana Gumboc 25:51That's fine.Umm.Were there any principle forms of injustice in Canadian society?During the 1970s.Umm, I think that means like maybe hate crimes or.I'm not too sure what forms of injustice is referring to. John Maxted 26:21Well, if I was to turn that question a little bit on its heels, I might introduce the idea of equity, diversity and inclusion, which is a very important subject in 2023 and since a lot of your questions seemed to come from the culture that we're exempt, that we're experiencing right now in 2023, I would say that there were, yeah, there were lots of issues of equity. Uh. Reyana Gumboc 26:26Umm.You yeah. John Maxted 26:51Inequity.Umm, the lack of diversion and the lack of inclusion in the 1970s did we talk about it as much?Absolutely not.It was, you know, all the things you don't like about those things nowadays existed in the 1970s.So you know the names we used to refer to certain cultures and certain races and so on. Reyana Gumboc 27:13Umm. John Maxted 27:20Uh, we're not questioned then the way they are now, or disallowed the way they are now.Umm, the cultural issues and cultural disparities were not as obvious at that time.Umm, some of that was good in that, just like I've discussed with you, the inclusion of French and English language in the class and the the difference between that and the difference between genders was not as big an issue as it is now. Reyana Gumboc 27:41Yeah. John Maxted 27:46Some of that was probably good for the issues that we now identify around equity diversion and inclusion, but at the same time, it was also to our ignorance that we carried on that way because indigenous issues, for example, we're ongoing and we were to a large extent ignoring them.Umm, I wouldn't say entirely ignoring them because indigenous issues of fairness to the indigenous peoples has been an issue for government for a long time, but it was not as addressed as well, probably back in the 70s as it is as as as as they are trying to address it at this point in time.So those things absolutely existed.We didn't have to be as concerned about our language then, but that language, that same language around equity, diversity and inclusion probably contributed to some of the issues.The problems the ohh challenges that we have in 2023. Reyana Gumboc 28:51Mm-hmm.So did you feel that the system was democratic and responsive to the needs of the citizens?The question says, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? John Maxted 29:13As a white Caucasian that had been born and raised in Canada, I did. Reyana Gumboc 29:17No. Yeah. John Maxted 29:19But if you were asking that of me and I was an indigenous people's person, umm, or I was somebody coming from East Asia who had maybe just arrived in the country, I would probably answer differently to that question. Reyana Gumboc 29:40OK, so the next main question is about birth control.So cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s.Would you agree with that? John Maxted 30:05Absolutely. Reyana Gumboc 30:10OK.And what did dating look like at the time? John Maxted 30:15But the dating look like. Reyana Gumboc 30:17Dating, yeah. John Maxted 30:21I'm not sure what that question means.I would say it looked much the way it does nowadays.I mean, two people get together and decide that they like one another.Enough that they want to become a little more personal, or a little.Or develop a relationship and the way it went?Umm, I would say you know you.You you did mention abortion and birth control and something else.I can't remember what it was now, but anyways I would say that those things were just becoming available and I'm more popular and those days and and as well in those days, abortion and birth control and what was the third thing you mentioned there? Reyana Gumboc 31:03Uh dissemination of the free love ideology. John Maxted 31:06OK.Love.Yeah, I would say that those things were just sort of coming into the fore, umm and so as a result there was a lot of antagonism towards behaviors that might have reflected the availability of birth, free or not free birth.But but but birth control, the variability of gender breakdowns and stuff like that. Reyana Gumboc 31:28Mm-hmm. John Maxted 31:35There was a lot of controversy around that.Not nearly as much as there is nowadays, but, but it was early years for some of that sexual freedom that I think you're referring to.And so those early years for sexual freedom obviously would have influenced the relationships as well that you were asking me about. Reyana Gumboc 31:57Yeah.Umm, the next question is how did your generation look at family and marriage like?Was it more of a nuclear family expectation or was less traditional familial like relationships where they more accepted? John Maxted 32:24I think the feelings about family and marriage in 1970s were were very traditional.I think it was still man and woman.Umm.And I think the nuclear family was still very important.I would you know, I would answering that question 2023.I would say it's still very important but but, but nevertheless the makeup of a family, the relationships that form within the family, Umm, we're very traditional at that time and have certainly changed in the meantime. Reyana Gumboc 32:57I would agree.I would.I would say that it's still very traditional, but I would say it's kind of changed.Umm, the next section is optional.We don't have to do it, but it's about sexuality and harassment.Would you like to?Go go ahead with the questions. John Maxted 33:18I mean I can try to answer them.I I'm not exactly sure what the questions would entail. Reyana Gumboc 33:25I'll just read the disclaimer.The following section is optional concerns to sexuality harassment.We appreciate that not everyone will be comfortable with these questions.We want to reiterate that your participation as well unitary, you may choose not to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable.So basically it's.Uh policing of sexual harassment.UM, I'm just skimming the questions and premarital sex.Would you like to carry on? John Maxted 34:06I just.I'm not sure that I'm going to have my very much to contribute to that.That's all. Reyana Gumboc 34:11Alright, that's fine.We don't have to do it and but other than that, that's all of the questions that I have for you.It's been very. John Maxted 34:19That's it. Reyana Gumboc 34:20Yeah, that's it.It's been 30 minutes. John Maxted 34:22So it's really, really not about universe.It's really not about university life.It's more about the social and cultural norms at that time. Reyana Gumboc 34:28Yeah, yeah. John Maxted 34:29OK, I thought I thought you were interested in, you know, talking about the University of Ottawa and what we enjoyed about going to school and stuff like that, but. Reyana Gumboc 34:39Like the academics of it, yeah, no, it's it's more of a. John Maxted 34:40Yeah. Reyana Gumboc 34:46It's more of a pop culture type of society based interview, but I think that the information that you've given me has been useful and I'll definitely like I'll be putting this into a database.So thank you for participating. John Maxted 35:05OK. Reyana Gumboc 35:06Yeah, it's been nice meeting you.You seem like a very smart and interesting guy, so I hope that this was fun for you for a little bit. John Maxted 35:21Yeah.Well, it's a little different than what I thought.And as I've already expressed to you, so I you know, I I really enjoyed my time at University of Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 35:24Yeah. John Maxted 35:31If I'm allowed to say that and and and so that's why I decided I wouldn't mind being part of this because it does bring back memories, even answering some of your questions brought back some memories. Reyana Gumboc 35:41Yeah. John Maxted 35:44When I started talking about the escalating society and so on with the faculty and medicine, but the questions I think are probably well beyond the university to some extent.And the more societal and and some of them personal questions as well, but don't necessarily relate to my being a student at University of Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 36:07Yeah, he seemed kind of shocked by a lot of the questions, actually.But I think that's a. John Maxted 36:14Anyhow, thanks very much for yours for your help as well and all the best in your education because you still have a few years to go. Reyana Gumboc 36:17Yeah.Thank you so much.Thank you. John Maxted 36:23But he's not with you. Reyana Gumboc 36:23Yeah, quite a. John Maxted 36:25Well, in your way. Reyana Gumboc stopped transcription Transcription Translation Reyana Gumboc a commencé la transcription Reyana Gumboc 0:03Croyons que c'est l'enregistrement.OK.Donc le premier thème principal est l'impact de la culture populaire et j'ai une déclaration ici.Un historien de la culture a soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée, et Ottawa était une institution plus bilingue.Donc nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient en relation. Nous voulons donc mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés.Et maintenant, voici une question.Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société à l'époque.Comment votre temps de loisirs est-il structuré ? Que faites-vous pour vous amuser dans les années 1970 ? John Maxted 0:53J'ai raté une partie de cette question.comment était structuré ce qui était structuré ? Reyana Gumboc 0:56Votre temps libre est structuré. John Maxted 0:57Plus tard. Reyana Gumboc 0:59Oui. John Maxted 1:01Et bien, je suppose que je dois commencer ma réponse à cette question en disant que je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps libre.Je veux dire que j'avais quelques objectifs et à ce moment-là, et c'étaient les objectifs de toute une vie, c'était de m'établir comme médecin à ce moment-là.Même si je suis devenu médecin de famille, je ne savais pas que c'était ce que je deviendrais. Reyana Gumboc 1:25Mm-hmm. John Maxted 1:26Ce qui m'intéressait le plus, c'était d'obtenir mon diplôme de médecine et de choisir ensuite, ou avant, le type de spécialité que j'aimerais suivre. J'avais donc passé les quelques années précédentes à me préparer à entrer à l'université, ce qui a commencé en 1968 et s'est terminé en 1974 à l'Université d'Ottawa. J'avais commencé par essayer de gagner suffisamment d'argent pour pouvoir aller à l'université et payer les frais qui y étaient associés, surtout en médecine, où les frais étaient généralement un peu plus élevés. Donc, même pendant que je me préparais à aller à l'université, et même quand j'ai commencé l'université en 1968, j'avais quelques emplois à temps partiel. Et puis quand j'ai commencé l'université, bien sûr, j'ai commencé dans ce qu'on appelait le programme de médecine pré-médicale à l'Université d'Ottawa et nous étions le dernier contingent d'étudiants autorisés à commencer ce programme.Les avantages de ce programme étaient énormes.Si je pouvais maintenir ma moyenne à un certain niveau pendant les deux années suivantes, j'étais assuré d'avoir une place dans le programme de médecine. Quand j'ai commencé en 1970, et c'est exactement ce qui s'est passé, j'ai pu maintenir ma moyenne et profiter de ces deux premières années, qui étaient un peu comme un programme scientifique.Et puis j'ai continué en médecine.Donc je consacrais beaucoup de temps à ces objectifs et franchement, je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps pour les activités de loisirs qui étaient nos meilleures activités sociales dans ma vie, certaines autour de mon église, d'autres autour de mes amis. Reyana Gumboc 3:04Oui. John Maxted 3:18Mais franchement, j'étais motivé par le fait d'essayer de faire des études et de devenir ce que je voulais devenir. Reyana Gumboc 3:25Bien sûr. La question suivante porte sur les lieux de sortie. Vous n'avez pas l'habitude de sortir. Quels sont, selon vous, les lieux de sortie les plus populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur ? John Maxted 3:39 Eh bien, avec le temps, je ne me souviens plus des deux premières années que je vous ai mentionnées comme étant les années de prépa médecine, mais nous étions toujours impliqués dans la Faculté de médecine parce qu'elle était gérée par la faculté de médecine et, avec le temps, nous nous sommes de plus en plus impliqués dans ce qu'on appelait la ice Glapion Society, qui était un club ou une association. Elle était physiquement située dans le sous-sol de la faculté de médecine, rue Nicholas, au centre-ville d'Ottawa, et nous nous y réunissions souvent. Reyana Gumboc 4:12Eh bien. John Maxted 4:18On se retrouvait là entre les cours et on avait, vous savez, des discussions et des questions personnelles, professionnelles et plus formelles sur l'éducation. Mais c'était un peu un endroit où on pouvait se lâcher. Je ne me souviens pas qu'on ait jamais servi d'alcool dans cet endroit, sauf peut-être à l'occasion d'une fête où on buvait de la bière ou quelque chose comme ça, mais je ne m'en souviens même pas. Reyana Gumboc 4:39Oui. John Maxted 4:45Mais c'était vraiment un centre de collecte où, en médecine, nous pouvions nous rassembler et partager nos pensées et nos sentiments et nous laisser aller un peu. Et je dirais que c'était surtout là que nous avions beaucoup d'interactions sociales. Certains de mes amis se réunissaient à l'Albion, qui était un bar à bière tout proche, un peu plus loin dans la rue. Je n'y allais généralement pas moi-même, mais je savais que certains de mes amis s'y rendaient parfois. Reyana Gumboc 5:16OK, je crois que j'ai entendu parler de l'Albion, mais je n'y suis jamais allée. Je ne sais pas s'il existe encore. Les questions suivantes portent sur les événements musicaux. Étant donné que vous êtes très cultivés, vous n'avez probablement pas assisté à beaucoup d'événements musicaux, n'est-ce pas ? John Maxted 5:35Non, pas du tout.En fait, vous savez, l'une des choses que nous avions, c'était une attraction à l'université à l'époque où les gigis umm, c'était, c'était l'équipe de football et ils étaient fans de football. Reyana Gumboc 5:37 D'accord, oh oui. John Maxted 5:48J'aimais bien assister à quelques matchs de football des Gigis et c'était aussi un exutoire pour me soulager de temps en temps. Reyana Gumboc 5:57Mm-hmm.La question suivante porte sur le bilinguisme.Euh, y avait-il des cours bilingues intégrés à l'époque ou des clubs ? John Maxted 6:15 Non, il n'y en avait pas. Je ne sais pas exactement comment vous définissez le bilinguisme, mais je n'ai pas suivi de cours de français à l'époque. L'université essayait évidemment de devenir plus bilingue et d'intégrer le français dans la langue de l'université. Je pense qu'elle a mieux réussi ces dernières années qu'à l'époque, mais ce n'était certainement pas le cas. Il n'y avait pas d'animosité. Il n'y avait pas de mauvais sentiments à ce sujet. En fait, en tant qu'étudiant de l'Université d'Ottawa, j'ai apprécié cette opportunité car mes compétences en français et en langues étaient l'un de mes domaines d'excellence lorsque j'étais au lycée et j'avais reçu des prix pour cela.J'étais donc très heureux d'être dans une université où je pourrais être forcé dans une certaine mesure à parler français, mais franchement je n'ai pas été forcé beaucoup et lorsque j'ai été forcé ou lorsque j'ai dû comprendre le français, la langue française, j'ai apprécié cette opportunité.mais malheureusement cela n'a pas été au point que je devienne bilingue ou que je sois capable de parler couramment le français. Reyana Gumboc 7:30OK.Umm.Par bilingue, je veux dire, umm, francophones et anglophones, s'inscrivant aux mêmes cours et rejoignant les mêmes clubs.Mais saviez-vous si des anglophones et des francophones sortaient ensemble à l'époque ? John Maxted 7:50Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu de barrière ou de question sur le fait que ce n'était pas correct ou pas correct. Reyana Gumboc 7:54OK. John Maxted 7:57Umm, vous savez, nous avions des étudiants francophones dans ma classe et nous sommes devenus de bons amis. Je ne sais pas exactement où vous voulez en venir avec cette question, mais il n'y a jamais eu de différence entre les francophones et les anglophones. Reyana Gumboc 8:14Oui. John Maxted 8:20 Nous nous sommes accueillis mutuellement et nous étions de grands amis les uns pour les autres. Reyana Gumboc 8:24 C'est bien. Je pense que c'est à peu près la même chose maintenant, ce ne sont pas mes questions, elles me sont données pour que tout le monde puisse les lire. John Maxted 8:30Ils suggèrent presque qu'il y a eu un problème, mais il n'y en a pas eu du tout. Reyana Gumboc 8:33Oui. John Maxted 8:35En fait, je pense que l'absence de problème se traduit par l'absence de considération dans une certaine mesure, et il n'y a pas eu de réflexion sur la question de savoir si nous devions promouvoir une langue plutôt qu'une autre ou une culture plutôt qu'une autre. Reyana Gumboc 8:35Oh, c'est bien.Ouais.OK.Et maintenant, la question suivante porte sur la culture de la fête.Vous avez dit que vous n'étiez pas.Vous n'avez pas vraiment fait ce genre de choses.Mais connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui l'a fait ou comment décrirait-il la priorité John campus ? John Maxted 9:08Je pense que la culture de la fête, c'est surtout, je veux dire, je vous ai déjà parlé de l'escalade de la société et nous avons eu quelques fêtes de temps en temps. Reyana Gumboc 9:16Umm. John Maxted 9:16Umm, je vous ai aussi parlé de l'Albion Club où il y avait peut-être des fêtes de temps en temps. Umm, on y allait probablement de temps en temps et puis certains étudiants vivaient à Ottawa, comme moi. Je suis, mais occasionnellement, je pense que, comme dans la plupart des classes, il y avait des groupes qui se formaient au sein de la classe et donc certains de ces groupes sortaient pour une soirée, soit pour aller boire, soit pour aller chez l'autre ou quelque chose comme ça.Umm.J'ai certainement eu quelques amis proches au sein de la avec au sein de la classe aussi que je me suis rapproché de plus que moi. Reyana Gumboc 9:57Umm. John Maxted 9:57Dernier, mais je ne me souviens pas que nous ayons eu un lieu particulier que nous ayons fréquenté pour faire la fête. Reyana Gumboc 10:08D'accord, c'est très bien.La question suivante porte sur la guerre du Vietnam, sur ce qu'en pensait le corps étudiant. John Maxted 10:25 Eh bien, je dois vous dire très honnêtement que ce n'était pas un sujet très important pour nous. Reyana Gumboc 10:32Mm-hmm. John Maxted 10:33Umm.En fait, je suis surpris par votre question.Euh, c'est presque une question politique et je dirais qu'à l'époque, nous ne soutenions pas la guerre du Vietnam.Nous étions préoccupés par le je suis comme aujourd'hui par le nombre de personnes qui étaient tuées au cours du processus et nous aurions préféré une résolution plus pacifique de cette situation.Mais je ne peux pas non plus dire que c'était quelque chose qui était très important sur notre écran radar. Reyana Gumboc 11:11Et bien, probablement qu'aujourd'hui, les guerres sont plus comme sur le radar à cause des médias sociaux.Donc c'est très probablement une raison, mais je ne vais pas dire définitivement umm.Et la question suivante est vraiment différente, mais les artistes de rock'n'roll dans les années 1960 ont promu diverses formes de protestation.Est-ce que vos parents ont vu le rock'n'roll comme rebelle ou juste une forme de musique populaire ? John Maxted 11:46Umm.C'est une question à laquelle il est difficile de répondre.Je ne peux pas dire qu'il y avait beaucoup de rock'n'roll dans la famille de mes parents.Umm, mais je pense que ce n'est pas le cas. Reyana Gumboc 12:01Umm. John Maxted 12:04Je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu de doute sur la nature rebelle du rock'n'roll. C'était quelque chose qui existait et ils l'ont accepté. C'était comme ça. Il y avait une nouvelle forme de musique et je ne me souviens pas que la rébellion ait été promue, abhorrée ou reconnue intensément dans le groupe de rock'n'roll. Encore une fois, c'est une question un peu surprenante. Reyana Gumboc 12:39 Oui, je lisais ce texte et beaucoup d'entre eux sont un peu délicats et bizarres, mais le prochain concerne les drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur le campus ? John Maxted 13:00Je n'ai pas été clandestin sur le campus et je ne suis pas absolument certain qu'il y ait eu un phénomène clandestin au sein de l'université. Reyana Gumboc 13:04Umm. John Maxted 13:12Umm, je dirais que ce n'est pas une drogue, mais dans les années 70, c'est l'alcool qui était le plus en vue. Reyana Gumboc 13:12Umm. John Maxted 13:20En tant qu'étudiants, nous commencions à boire de l'alcool et c'était la dernière mode. Chaque fois que nous voulions nous amuser, c'était l'alcool qui entrait dans la fête. Je ne me souviens même pas d'avoir entendu parler de cannabis à cette époque. Je pense que le cannabis n'est apparu que plus tard et je ne me souviens pas que mes amis se soient mis à ce genre de choses, pas plus que je ne me souviens d'avoir pris des opioïdes ou d'autres types de médicaments disponibles aujourd'hui sur le marché clandestin. Reyana Gumboc 14:03Umm, umm, d'accord.Merci.Le thème suivant concerne l'expérience féminine.Évidemment, vous êtes un homme, donc vous ne pourrez peut-être pas répondre à ces questions avec toute votre compétence, mais umm.Il y a une déclaration ici.Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague.Dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes.Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus à l'époque ? John Maxted 14:43La question ressemble un peu à certaines de vos questions précédentes et elle fait certaines suppositions basées sur la culture d'aujourd'hui, la disparité entre les sexes d'aujourd'hui et les inégalités d'aujourd'hui.La diversité d'aujourd'hui présente des défis en soi.Il est donc un peu difficile de répondre à votre question parce que beaucoup de ces questions auxquelles vous faites référence sont devenues des questions plus tard. En fait, bien des années plus tard, et ce n'est qu'au cours des cinq à dix dernières années, que certains des problèmes dont vous parlez sont devenus des questions évidentes pour la population en général.Ainsi, dans les années 1970, je ne dirais pas que les questions de genre étaient concernées.Je n'ai pas perçu à l'époque, si c'est une réponse à votre question, que les femmes essayaient en quelque sorte de se frayer un chemin dans la société, mais c'était là néanmoins. Reyana Gumboc 15:42OK. John Maxted 15:44 On ne peut pas nier que, par exemple, il y a quelques années, on s'est battu pour que les femmes puissent voter, et c'est ce genre de choses. Est-ce qu'il y avait des questions sur le degré d'implication des femmes ? Absolument, je veux dire qu'il y avait encore des questions à l'époque sur, vous savez, le nombre de femmes dans la classe par rapport aux hommes, si le mot " femmes " est le bon. Je ne dirais donc pas que l'on y accordait autant d'attention à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui, mais je ne me souviens pas d'une époque de ma vie où il n'y a pas eu de comparaison entre les sexes en termes de promotion ou de capacité à pénétrer les différents aspects de la vie en société. Reyana Gumboc 16:47Pouvez-vous répondre aux questions que je me pose sur les femmes dans les clubs et les départements ? Vous diriez donc que les femmes sont moins représentées ou moins présentes dans les programmes scientifiques STEM. John Maxted 17:04Oui, je choisissais une profession en choisissant la médecine par le biais de la science qui était dominée par les hommes... Heureusement, les choses ont changé. Reyana Gumboc 17:14Mm-hmm. John Maxted 17:17En fait, il semble que ce soit l'inverse aujourd'hui, mais néanmoins, à l'époque, humm, les femmes essayaient vraiment de... Je ne dirais pas... Je ne sais pas si elles essayaient, mais elles s'impliquaient de plus en plus dans les sciences et la médecine. Reyana Gumboc 17:37 Génial. Euh, désolé, je suis en train de lire les questions. Euh, celle-ci porte sur le traitement des femmes dans les salles de classe, où il y a nécessairement des différences, un traitement différent ou des attentes différentes dans la salle de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux pour les femmes par rapport aux étudiants masculins. John Maxted 18:01 Encore une fois, c'est le reflet de certaines de mes premières réponses, mais aussi le reflet de certaines choses auxquelles je pensais plus tôt et que j'avais oublié de mentionner. Je pense que la façon dont nous traitions les femmes à l'époque et la façon dont nous les incluions dans les événements, les organisations, les réunions et tout le reste, les hypothèses que nous faisions sur le rôle d'une femme dans ce que nous faisions étaient des hypothèses qui seraient probablement considérées comme fautives aujourd'hui, dans notre culture, mais nous ne les considérions pas comme telles à ce moment-là parce qu'elles n'étaient pas identifiées en tant que telles. Et donc pour nous, ce n'était pas un problème.Nous ne pensions pas que nous faisions du mal aux femmes ou que nous en faisions.Il n'y avait pas d'intention derrière cela.Dit comme ça, c'est difficile pour moi de trouver certains de ces mots et de ne pas coter, de ne pas déformer la situation. Reyana Gumboc 19:03Oui. John Maxted 19:09Mais il n'y avait pas d'intention derrière notre pensée, notre langage ou notre façon de nous comporter. Mais je pense que si vous deviez regarder les choses en termes actuels, ce qui est l'objet de votre question, il y aurait probablement des choses à reprocher à notre comportement, à notre façon de traiter les femmes, à la façon dont nous les incluions dans ce que nous faisions. Honnêtement, je n'ai pas d'exemples à l'heure actuelle où je me dis que nous avons été très méchants avec les femmes ou que nous aurions dû mieux les traiter, ou quelque chose comme ça. Il a fallu qu'on nous le fasse remarquer au fil des ans pour que nous le reconnaissions, et il a fallu que je revienne en arrière et que je me demande si nous avions fait quelque chose qui n'était pas tout à fait ce qu'il aurait fallu faire... Et très franchement, je n'ai pas été confrontée à cette question jusqu'à présent. Reyana Gumboc 20:11Et bien, c'est une bonne chose pour moi, je l'ai noté. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour un monde plus juste ou meilleur ? John Maxted 20:47Je l'ai été.Je n'ai en fait participé à aucune mobilisation.Euh, initiative dont je me souvienne.Umm, c'est au niveau du groupe, au niveau personnel.Umm, je reconnais que cela faisait partie de ce que j'aurais appelé à ce moment-là, dans les années 70, la toute nouvelle génération, tout comme les générations ont évolué depuis lors. Vous savez, nous, nous les appelons toutes sortes de choses. Les générations ZED et X et tout ce que nous continuons à appeler. Et donc, oui, je suis moi et mes amis associés. Nous avions certainement notre propre façon de penser, nos propres croyances, dont certaines, beaucoup, étaient différentes de celles de nos parents, de ceux qui étaient plus âgés que nous. Nous avons suivi notre propre voie et nos parents, tout comme les parents d'aujourd'hui, ont accepté que la jeune génération pense différemment et ils ont essayé de l'intégrer à la vie familiale, à la vie sociale et à la vie en général. Reyana Gumboc 22:08Oui. En général, les enfants essaient d'être différents de leurs parents, de s'en éloigner. Mais dans quelle mesure la génération de votre époque pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses avaient été mises à jour ? John Maxted 22:35Je pense que je pense que, encore une fois, ce n'était pas une discussion évidente avec mes associés ou mes amis sur le fait qu'elles étaient dépassées et que nous allions agir différemment. Reyana Gumboc 22:49Oui. John Maxted 22:49Umm. Et nous ne sommes pas rentrés à la maison en disant, oh, au fait, maman et papa, j'ai juste agi différemment. Ou j'ai juste fait quelque chose avec lequel vous ne seriez pas d'accord ou pas d'accord, ou quelque chose comme ça. Reyana Gumboc 22:59Oui. John Maxted 23:00Nous n'avons pas essayé de créer un grand mouvement autour de cela et de réagir, mais comme pour beaucoup d'évolutions dans la société, il est devenu de plus en plus évident que nous nous comportions et agissions de cette manière, et que nous le faisions de cette manière. Mais nous ne disions pas à nos parents ou à nos aînés tout ce que nous faisions. Nous le faisions simplement parce que c'était ce que nous voulions faire ou ce que nous pensions qu'il était bon de faire. Reyana Gumboc 23:38Ouais.Umm.Donc, en regardant les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérez-vous comme ayant besoin d'être corrigé ? John Maxted 23:59Ah, c'est une question à laquelle il est difficile de répondre. Umm. Reyana Gumboc 24:03Désolée, je vous pose question sur question. John Maxted 24:09Je veux dire que la politique a toujours été quelque chose à laquelle j'ai prêté beaucoup d'attention et en étant à Ottawa, euh, j'ai toujours dit, en fait, je suis en train d'écrire mes mémoires en ce moment et l'un de mes paragraphes porte sur le fait que lorsque nous étions à Ottawa, nous avions toujours une perspective nationale. Reyana Gumboc 24:16Oui. John Maxted 24:26Nous n'avons jamais eu de perspective provinciale ou territoriale en vivant à Ottawa et donc, en tant que perspective nationale, c'était toujours, vous savez, ce que nous aimons ou n'aimons pas au sujet du Canada et à l'époque, je pense qu'en général, le sentiment de la plupart de mes associés et de moi-même était que nous étions très reconnaissants d'être au Canada. Nous étions très reconnaissants pour la culture, la société, les libertés, le mode de vie, la sécurité, tout ce que nous avions à l'époque. Reyana Gumboc 24:50Umm. John Maxted 25:03Nous étions reconnaissants de ces choses. Oui, nous les tenions pour acquises dans une certaine mesure, comme les gens le font aujourd'hui, mais nous ne nous battions probablement pas autant à ce sujet qu'aujourd'hui. Et pourtant, la politique était toujours très importante, le parti au pouvoir était toujours très important pour nous. Qu'il s'agisse de Diefenbaker et Pearson à l'époque, ou de Trudeau, Pierre Trudeau, qui est arrivé un peu plus tard.C'était des choses dont nous discutions souvent et nous avions nos préférences et nos aversions sur les politiques auxquelles ils adhéraient.Je ne me souviens pas de quelque chose de spécifique à ce stade.Politiquement, en ce qui concerne cette époque, mais néanmoins, il y avait certainement des choses qui se passaient. Reyana Gumboc 25:51C'est bien.Umm.Y avait-il des formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne pendant les années 70.Umm, je pense que ça veut dire des crimes de haine ou... Je ne sais pas trop à quelles formes d'injustice on fait référence. John Maxted 26:21Et bien, si je devais tourner cette question un peu à l'envers, je pourrais introduire l'idée de l'équité, de la diversité et de l'inclusion, qui est un sujet très important en 2023 et puisque beaucoup de vos questions semblaient provenir de la culture dont nous sommes exempts, que nous vivons en ce moment en 2023, je dirais qu'il y avait, oui, il y avait beaucoup de problèmes d'équité. Je dirais qu'il y avait, oui, beaucoup de questions d'équité. Reyana Gumboc 26:26Umm.vous oui. John Maxted 26:51Inequité.Umm, le manque de diversion et le manque d'inclusion dans les années 70, est-ce qu'on en parlait autant ? Absolument pas.C'était, vous savez, tout ce qu'on n'aime pas dans ces choses qui existaient aujourd'hui dans les années 70.Vous savez, les noms qu'on utilisait pour désigner certaines cultures, certaines races et ainsi de suite. Reyana Gumboc 27:13Umm. John Maxted 27:20Uh, on ne nous a pas posé de questions comme on le fait aujourd'hui, on ne nous a pas interdit de le faire comme on le fait maintenant.Umm, les questions culturelles et les disparités culturelles n'étaient pas aussi évidentes à l'époque.Umm, c'était bien en partie parce que, comme j'en ai parlé avec vous, l'inclusion du français et de l'anglais dans la classe et la différence entre ces deux langues et la différence entre les sexes n'étaient pas un problème aussi important qu'aujourd'hui. Reyana Gumboc 27:41Oui. John Maxted 27:46Certaines de ces mesures étaient probablement bonnes pour les questions que nous identifions aujourd'hui autour de l'équité, de la diversion et de l'inclusion, mais en même temps, c'est aussi à notre insu que nous avons continué dans cette voie parce que les questions indigènes, par exemple, sont permanentes et que nous les ignorions dans une large mesure. Je ne dirais pas que nous les avons entièrement ignorées, parce que la question de l'équité envers les peuples indigènes est une question qui préoccupe le gouvernement depuis longtemps, mais elle n'a pas été aussi bien traitée, probablement dans les années 70, qu'elle ne l'est aujourd'hui. Nous n'avions pas à nous préoccuper autant de notre langue à l'époque, mais cette langue, cette même langue autour de l'équité, de la diversité et de l'inclusion a probablement contribué à certains des problèmes. Les problèmes, les ohh défis que nous avons en 2023. Reyana Gumboc 28:51Mm-hmm.Alors, avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système était démocratique et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? La question dit : avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? John Maxted 29:13En tant que Blanc caucasien né et élevé au Canada, oui. Reyana Gumboc 29:17Non. John Maxted 29:19Mais si vous me posiez cette question et que j'étais un indigène, humm, ou quelqu'un d'Asie de l'Est qui venait peut-être d'arriver dans le pays, je répondrais probablement différemment à cette question. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. John Maxted 30:05 Absolument. Reyana Gumboc 30:10OK. Et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'époque ? John Maxted 30:15Mais à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres ? Reyana Gumboc 30:17Les rendez-vous, oui. John Maxted 30:21Je ne suis pas sûr du sens de cette question. Je dirais que cela ressemblait beaucoup à ce qui se passe aujourd'hui. Je veux dire que deux personnes se rencontrent et décident qu'elles s'apprécient suffisamment pour vouloir devenir un peu plus personnelles, ou développer une relation, et la façon dont cela s'est passé... Umm, je dirais que vous vous connaissez. Vous avez mentionné l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances et quelque chose d'autre. Je ne me souviens plus de ce que c'était maintenant, mais en tout cas je dirais que ces choses devenaient disponibles et je suis plus populaire à cette époque et aussi à cette époque, l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances et quelle était la troisième chose que vous avez mentionnée ? Reyana Gumboc 31:03Uh la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre. John Maxted 31:06OK.l'amour.oui, je dirais que ces choses venaient juste de passer au premier plan, umm et donc en conséquence il y avait beaucoup d'antagonisme envers les comportements qui auraient pu refléter la disponibilité des naissances, libres ou non libres.mais mais mais mais mais le contrôle des naissances, la variabilité des répartitions des sexes et des choses comme ça. Reyana Gumboc 31:28Mm-hmm. John Maxted 31:35Il y a eu beaucoup de controverses à ce sujet, pas autant qu'aujourd'hui, mais c'était les premières années de la liberté sexuelle à laquelle vous faites allusion. Et ces premières années de liberté sexuelle ont évidemment influencé les relations que vous m'avez demandées. Reyana Gumboc 31:57Oui. La question suivante est de savoir comment votre génération considérait la famille et le mariage : s'agissait-il plutôt d'une attente de famille nucléaire ou de relations familiales moins traditionnelles qui étaient mieux acceptées ? John Maxted 32:24Je pense que les sentiments à l'égard de la famille et du mariage dans les années 1970 étaient très traditionnels. Je pense qu'il s'agissait toujours d'un homme et d'une femme. Et je pense que la famille nucléaire était encore très importante. Je répondrais à cette question en 2023. Je dirais qu'elle est encore très importante, mais la composition d'une famille, les relations qui se forment au sein de la famille... Nous étions très traditionnels à l'époque et nous avons certainement changé entre-temps. Reyana Gumboc 32:57Je suis d'accord.Je dirais que c'est encore très traditionnel, mais je dirais que ça a un peu changé.Umm, la section suivante est facultative.Nous ne sommes pas obligés de la faire, mais elle concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement.Voulez-vous ? Allez-y avec les questions. John Maxted 33:18Je veux dire que je peux essayer d'y répondre, mais je ne sais pas exactement en quoi consistent les questions. Reyana Gumboc 33:25Je vais juste lire l'avertissement.La section suivante est facultative concernant le harcèlement sexuel.Nous comprenons que tout le monde ne sera pas à l'aise avec ces questions.Nous voulons réitérer que votre participation est aussi unitaire, vous pouvez choisir de ne pas répondre aux questions qui vous mettent mal à l'aise.Donc en gros c'est.Euh la police du harcèlement sexuel.UM, je ne fais que survoler les questions et les relations sexuelles avant le mariage.Voulez-vous continuer ? John Maxted 34:06 Je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir grand-chose à dire à ce sujet, c'est tout. Reyana Gumboc 34:11 D'accord, c'est très bien. Nous ne sommes pas obligés de le faire, mais à part ça, c'est toutes les questions que j'avais à vous poser. John Maxted 34:19C'est tout. Reyana Gumboc 34:20Oui, c'est tout, ça fait 30 minutes. John Maxted 34:22 Il ne s'agit donc vraiment pas de l'univers, ni de la vie universitaire, mais plutôt des normes sociales et culturelles de l'époque. Reyana Gumboc 34:28Oui, oui. John Maxted 34:29OK, je pensais que vous étiez intéressée à parler de l'Université d'Ottawa et de ce qu'on aimait faire à l'école et tout ça, mais... Reyana Gumboc 34:39Les études, oui, non, c'est plus une... John Maxted 34:40Oui. Reyana Gumboc 34:46C'est plus une interview basée sur la culture pop et la société, mais je pense que les informations que vous m'avez données ont été utiles et je vais certainement les mettre dans une base de données. John Maxted 35:05OK. Reyana Gumboc 35:06Oui, j'ai été ravie de vous rencontrer. Vous avez l'air d'un homme très intelligent et intéressant, alors j'espère que vous avez pu vous amuser un peu. John Maxted 35:21Oui, c'est un peu différent de ce que je pensais, et comme je vous l'ai déjà dit, j'ai vraiment apprécié mon séjour à l'Université d'Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 35:24Oui. John Maxted 35:31Si je peux me permettre de dire cela et et et c'est pourquoi j'ai décidé que cela ne me dérangerait pas de participer à ce projet parce que cela me rappelle des souvenirs, même le fait de répondre à certaines de vos questions m'a rappelé des souvenirs. Reyana Gumboc 35:41Oui. John Maxted 35:44Quand j'ai commencé à parler de l'escalade de la société et ainsi de suite avec la faculté et la médecine, mais je pense que les questions vont probablement bien au-delà de l'université dans une certaine mesure.et les questions plus sociétales et certaines questions personnelles aussi, mais qui ne sont pas nécessairement liées au fait que j'étais étudiante à l'Université d'Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 36:07Oui, il a semblé un peu choqué par beaucoup de questions, en fait, mais je pense que c'est une... John Maxted 36:14En tout cas, merci beaucoup pour votre aide et bonne chance dans vos études parce qu'il vous reste encore quelques années à faire. Reyana Gumboc 36:17Oui, merci beaucoup, merci. John Maxted 36:23Mais il n'est pas avec vous. Reyana Gumboc 36:23Oui, tout à fait. John Maxted 36:25Et bien, à votre manière. Reyana Gumboc a arrêté la transcription Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maxted, John, (interview) Description An account of the resource Interview on the student experience on the University of Ottawa Campus during the early 1970's, including the "free love" movement and the counterculture revolution. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 36 minutes, 29 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyana Gumboc diversity medical medical school Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Binet, Abbey Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Planta, Joan Location The location of the interview Waterloo, ON, Canada (Via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Abbey B: Ok, it is October 18th, 2023 at 7:10pm this is Abbey Binet interviewing Joan Planta for the Life on Campus assignment. Abbey B: There were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured and what did you do for fun in the 1970s? Joan P: So in the 70s, there were like no electronics we had, you know, record players. So listen to music, Go to discos, play baseball, play volleyball and yeah went to parks. Went swimming and in the winter we would go tobogganing. Abbey B: Okay, cool. Where were the most popular hangout spots. Joan P: Most popular hangout spots… well one was a horse ranch when I was able to because I used to raise horses and I used to work on a ranch. Discos, we went to discos. Of course when we were of age. I went to church dances and stuff too, right. Schools dances at the university and university get togethers. Abbey B: Yea for sure. Did you attend any live music throughout the 70s? Joan P: Oh, yes. Yeah, like local bands, sometimes they play like in, in recalls and at the park and went to some big concerts too, like the Bee Gees. Abbey B: What, like specific artist like you know, I mean, like musicians like bands and singers were really popular in that time of the early 70s. Joan P: Yeah I just love the Bee Gees. I think it was in 1968 when I heard my first Bee Gees song and I've been a fan ever since and I've met, as you know, I've met two of the three Bee Gees, only one alive now, but yeah. So I love disco. I love folk music like I loved Harry Chapin. Umm, you know? Lionel Richie, I love R&B music. Like Diana Ross. Umm, all those Gladys Knight. Aretha Franklin. Abbey B: Can I ask you more about disco? Was there, like, was there a really big disco scene in the early 70s or and what was so like cultivating about disco? Joan P: Disco was so cultivating because it was just so alive. Right. And the dancing was so great. It was just so cool, right? So yeah, the music was on and you were dancing and just having a good time. Abbey B: That sounds really fun. Joan P: It was. Abbey B: I don't know if you know, but right now there is this kind of trend going on called silent disco and it's people listening to music, not disco music, but they just call it a silent disco, where you have headphones on. Joan P: Oh yea. Abbey B: It is so funny but probably not as lively as the real disco. Joan P: Yeah it’s funny, they do that on the cruise ships now too. They have discos on the cruise ships and yeah, you put the headphones on. Abbey B: So, we use the term party culture now to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. How would you describe the party culture in university? Joan P: Well, there were. There were different groups kind of right. There were what I called the party animals and some of them had good grades because they didn't have to work for it like I did. And some, you know, just didn't care about their marks. And then there was some of us. Who cared about our mark, so we would still like, you know, have like party get togethers and stuff. And still go to the disco but nothing like really crazy wild. Abbey B: Rock'n'roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see rock'n'roll as like rebellious or just a form of like popular music at the time? Joan P: They didn't say it as rebellious at all. I was the youngest in my family. So and music was always playing in our household, everything from big band era to rock'n'roll like Elvis Presley in the 50s and 60s and The Beatles. And then you know, going into the 70s with disco and stuff. And so my parents just kind of grew with the changing of of music and they didn't see it as a as a problem at all. Abbey B: That’s good. Okay, next question, some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent did you see recreational drugs being available on campus or just, you know, around in the early 1970s? Joan P: Right. So drugs were definitely available, and if you wanted them you you knew where where to get them like it's, you know, it was back then how how it is today and you kind of knew who the users were and stuff too. Myself, I've never. I've never even to this day. I've never done drugs. So, I totally stayed away from that and probably partly because I saw people who, you know, took bad drugs, right, and went through the freak outs. I mean, I still remember a concert in the 70s that I was at and someone must we think, had was taking acid and they just totally started freaking out. They had to bring in St. John's ambulance to take the person away, so that's probably what saved me and kept me away from from doing drugs. Abbey B: Yea for sure, and earlier on you were talking about how there was like kind of groups and like party animals. Would you say that more of the party animal group was the kind to partake in things like that? Joan P: Yeah, yeah, yes definitely. Abbey B: OK, so that is it for the pop culture section and now we're moving on to the female experience. So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience in university in the early 70s? Joan P: Yeah, it did, because there was still that feeling that, you know, women didn't need higher education. And really, that's sort of how my father felt. I mean, he changed over time, but he he thought, you know what? The boys need to go to university. The girls? Not so much. Right. Whereas my mom, she was not that she was a feminist, but maybe in for for her generation, she was in her own way because she worked out of the home, whereas most of my friends back then their moms did not work outside the home. Right, but my mom always supported education. Yeah. Abbey B: In your own words what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? Joan P: So feminism, for me, was part of taking taking the stand to be able to do what you believed in, right? So and to be able to have a say over your over your own body. So if you wanted to go to school that you could go to school if you wanted to do something, you know, breaking down barriers. You know, there were certain things that I did that I was the first. The first female to have the opportunity to do and so it's something that, yeah, feminism was a was a way of going for it. Doing what you wanted to do. Abbey B: Can I ask what were those things that you did first as a woman? Joan P: Right. So one of the things I was I was the first to do was the financial institutions that I worked at. I was very fortunate in my career how I was able to advance there and I was the first female ever to report to the Chief Investment Officer. So which was quite something and I was the first female to be on his executive team, so that was pretty incredible. And I have to say that I didn't go in there thinking or with the attitude that it it was owed to me. went in there being grateful and being supportive also to the Chief Investment Officer because this was new for for him it was also new for me and so we're trying to help each other maneuver through that right. And I was kind of shocked. So he and he was an older gentleman, obviously being at that senior level, especially back then. And so some of his reports were a fair bit younger. And so they were very supportive. So I didn't feel any shunning except maybe one one or two out of 10, but they'll came around me eventually. Oh, I was also the first female, at the church I attended, to be on the National Canadian Board of Directors. Abbey B: So gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than they are today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in the classroom, in the workplace, or even at social events? Joan P: Right, right. So there was an experience I had at university where even though you know it was in the 70s and there were more women attending university than in the previous decade. But my marks were so good that the Dean actually wanted to see me. I didn't know why he wanted to see me. I was afraid, I thought ohh I'm in trouble. And he's like, I just wanted to hear your story because your marks are very, quite incredible. So I mean, I was just kind of in shock, right? So yeah, so and sorry, what was the question again? Abbey B: Yea, all good. Just like how were you treated differently it like because you were a woman in the workplace, in school or even just out like social events? Joan P: Right. So one of the things you know, because of some of those things that I was the first woman to experience is sometimes as women, we hold each other back. So there were some people that were, I don't wanna say jealous, but we're like “well, how come you got to do that?” And there were others that were just so happy for me, you know? So supportive and everything. So that existed way back when. Abbey B: Yeah. Did you feel like you had different expectations because you were a woman? Joan P: No, not really. I just wanted to be treated the same as everyone else. Abbey B:In the 1970s, where there any programs at your university or departments or even clubs that women were less like present like they just weren't, you know, part of that kind of degree or just weren't accepted into that kind of degree? Joan P: Right. So yes, like in in business, there was definitely more more men than women. And then I worked in accounting and when I was even taking accounting there were there were it was very male dominated. And then when I went into the investment division. Ohh my, there were very few very few women and I think that's partly why I was the 1st and in that division first woman to to report to the Chief Investment Officer because it was so male dominated. Abbey B: Yeah. Joan P: And those were all management positions, right? So like, there were barely any women in even junior management positions, let alone, you know, me getting into the senior management position. Abbey B: Umm, so now the the last kind of section is. Well, there's two little more sections I didn't realize, so this section is kind of about generational differences. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation kind of rebelled against the values of your parents generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? Joan P: Right. Yeah. So I guess you know the previous generation was kind of looked at as being, you know, very like very conservative and not really enjoying life as much as was possible because, you know, they came through the war and some were went through the depression and stuff like that. And I I didn't experience that right. I was born after after that, so it it gave for a more free and easy lifestyle. Right. And therefore wanting to explore things, whereas like in their generation they, you know, don’t do that. So yeah, does that answer the question? Abbey B: Yes. So to what extent did your generation believe that your parents will not like your parents, but you know parents of that times notions about gender, family dating and we're like, outdated? Joan P: Right. So and that's where my mom and dad were very different from each other. So I think my mom, because she was an independent woman for her day and having worked, I worked outside of the of the home and very supportive of education for women and and things like that. So she was more, um, open to, you know, dating. She was open to things like you don't have to bring the boyfriend home on this first date and stuff like that, right? Whereas my dad was more conservative, like he didn't even want any dating. Like until you're like 21 or something. Abbey B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joan P: So yea it was kind of fun but tough having one parent feeling one way and other parent being very conservative and traditional. Abbey B: Do you think that kind of affected your dating life at the time these two kind of contradicting and figures? Joan P: So it didn't stop me, but it definitely had an edge of discomfort. Definitely. Abbey B: OK, so looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see that was most kind of out of whack and needed fixing? Joan P: It was just kind of an overall feeling of, you know, what, just let our generation be our generation and don't try and keep us back into the previous generation, right? I don't know if you if you feel like that in your generation today, but that was sort of how how I felt and it will because it was, it was also you know it was still the peace era. It was still, you know, the early early days of of feminism. Abbey B: Yeah, yeah, I do. I do understand that feeling and I totally get it. I feel like as a Gen Z, it's kind of similar for us to the millennial generation and even before that my parents generation like generation X, there's kind of like this new wave of, you know what I mean, social change and things like that, which is not necessarily like entirely contradicting to the generations prior, but it's just a really new group of people in this world. Joan P: Yeah, cause even things like, you know, the Vietnam War and other wars and stuff. It's like, why can't we just, you know, have peace, love and harmony? Abbey B: Can I ask you a question about the vietnam war? Joan P: Sure. Abbey B: What did the student body think about the vietnam war? Joan P: Didn't understand it, didn't understand the purpose. Seeing, you know, lives lost, and I still remember, you know, the news at that time. And you see the bombs go off and and the landmines and stuff. And it's like, why, like, why can't we just live together in peace and harmony? What is this gonna bring in the end? Yeah. Abbey B: What were the principal forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? Joan P: You know, in Canada we had, we had the I can't remember what it was and because it it went over into the 70s, you had the you had the FLQ in in Quebec and where they had that had an impact on me is in the 60s. I actually lived in Montreal for almost two years. My dad was transferred there and we moved there and my dad sent me to a a French school where the kids were learning English, so I was one of the few kids actually learning French and it was a brand new school, beautiful school, right?And then we moved back to Ontario and it was years later that that school was bombed by the FLQ, and I was just like, I was just so devastated by that. And it's like, why? Like that was just such injustice. Right. And there was a kidnapping in an assassination back then. And it's like, no, this isn't right. Yeah. Abbey B: Did you feel like the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizens needs? Joan P: Well, definitely not to my generation, especially as a woman, because you had no say over your own body, right? But things started changing. Like, you know, like a woman should be able to do what she wants to do within the law, right? But anything that a man could do, a woman should be able to do, and a woman should have say over her over her own body. Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. It's the principle of being able to do that. Abbey B: When did you find that in terms of the political system? Like, when did you find that starting to change like towards, you know, a more just situation for women? Joan P: Mid to late 70s but it is still going on today. Abbey B: Oh for sure. Joan P: You know, theres still a glass ceiling. Abbey B: Definitely. Joan P: There's still, you know, with I I think of, you know, Suzanne Sommers, who just passed away. Right? I mean, all of the barriers that she, you know, tried to break down and and and some of it she, you know, she got retaliated against like the whole thing on three's company when you know John Ritter was making like five times what she made now. I think he also was a writer. So wasn't just acting in the show, he was a writer also. But still like to make 1/5 of what he made. And so that's where she raised a stink about. She basically was fired, right? And that was just so wrong. And then what made it worse, like I was saying earlier, how women sometimes turn on women was she was retaliated against and for doing that that she was, she was told that she was greedy and selfish and it's like, no. Abbey B: She wasn’t, she wasn’t. Joan P: No she wasn’t. Does that answer the question? Abbey B: Yes for sure, don’t worry. so this last section is umm, I don't really know how to summarize it. It's kind of about family and marriage and that kind of thing. So I'll read this little blurb at the start so it says “cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s.” Do you agree with that statement or how do you feel about that statement? Joan P: Yeah, so so things did did change then and and rightfully so cause it goes back to my earlier point where a woman should have say over their own body, right. I won't reveal whether or not in for against abortion, but abortion is a woman's choice, right? I mean, I'm just so saddened what's happening in America. Making abortion illegal again and it's like, no, it's a woman's body and a woman should have a say over her body. It's the same for the pill, right? Like in the 60s, a woman couldn't go to her doctor. Like if you were, I don't know, 18 or something to get the pill.Unless your parents knew at 18 right? Like, seriously. Like that's just wrong, right? And so if you want to take the pill and I mean I was raised Catholic. I'm no longer Catholic, but how the Catholic Church has, you know, is against any form of birth control. And I don't know if they still are, but that was wrong back then, too, right? It started to improve but it took a long time to get to where we are today. Abbey B: Yeah, for sure, because I find that the birth control pill especially is just for me. It doesn't feel like something that could have ever been wrong. That's how normalized it is in today's society. Joan P: Right. Abbey B: It's like I never even would have thought that that would have been an issue, which is probably crazy to think about. Uh, but yeah, like I know lots of people now who are my age or even when I was in high school, who were allowed to take the birth control pill, and there wasn't any complications with that. Joan P: Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, thinking back like it was just it was so wrong, right? And yeah, it's just crazy. So I'm I'm glad it is where it is today. That's for sure. It's a lot better. Abbey B: What did dating look like in university look like in the 70s? Joan P: So there was still some that it's like, well, I'm not gonna call him. He has to call me. I'm not gonna ask him out. He has to ask me, and if you took her out on a date like he pays. Right? And so there was still some of that, but I was never. I was kind of never into that. It's like no. Like if I wanna talk to you, I'll call you. If you wanted to talk to me, I call me. And it's like if I wanna hang out like I'll ask you wanna hang out, right. And when you go on a date, it's like who can afford that? Abbey B: Did you find that since you were like you were talking about how you worked extra hard in university to get your good grades and stuff like that, did you find that since you were working really hard in a program that was more, like, dominated by men, that that kind of kept you away from dating a little bit? Like you were more so focused on your studies. Joan P: Oh yea, definitely. Abbey B: So how did your generation look at family and marriage? Was this like a required thing? Joan P: So yeah, that was so it kind of, I don't know, it kind of went back and forth, right? Like it was like, you know what? Like, if you're gonna get married like it should be a lifetime. A lifelong commitment. That was very much kind of the sentiment, right? And if not, then it then it's not right, like if you're not talking marriage, then that you know that that's not part of the equation in terms of a lifelong commitment. It's like that. Abbey B: Did you feel like women had to have kids at that time? Like, was that still a requirement in life? Joan P: t was still pretty pretty common, but I knew some people who women who like were never going to be able to have children. So, but I think there's still were men who are guys that, you know, still wanted it that way. Let's put it this way. It was uncommon for someone to marry and not have kids like it was more common than so in the 70s.You tend to marry younger, right? And even sometimes still in the university but not have kids right away. Others married and had their kids right away. Bang, bang, bang and then they're done. Abbey B: How did your parents generation look at family and marriage? Was it kind of back and forth or was it more so leaning towards like you must get married and you must have kids. Joan P: Yeah, it was. It was funny because it was still kind of like traditional outlook that, yeah, you know, married and children and blah, blah, blah. And yet my parents divorced in the 60s. Plus, they were Catholic, right? So that was really weird. Abbey B: Was divorce poorly looked upon in the 70s as well? Joan P: Yes, I would say yeah and and maybe too for Kitchener Waterloo because it's very much a German/European background. So it was very strong family traditional values, yeah. But there were still people who stayed married and had affairs and somehow that was justified. Abbey B: Well I am all out of questions so that means this interview is done. Thank you so much Joan. Joan P: No problem Abbey. Transcription Translation Abbey B : Ok, nous sommes le 18 octobre 2023 à 19h10, Abbey Binet interviewe Joan Planta dans le cadre de l'émission La vie sur le campus. Abbey B : Il y avait moins d'appareils électroniques dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment était structuré votre temps libre et que faisiez-vous pour vous amuser dans les années 1970 ? Joan P : Dans les années 70, il n'y avait pas d'appareils électroniques, nous avions des tourne-disques. Alors on écoutait de la musique, on allait dans les discothèques, on jouait au baseball, au volley-ball et on allait dans les parcs. On allait nager et en hiver, on faisait de la luge. Abbey B : D'accord, c'est cool. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires ? Joan P : Les endroits les plus populaires... eh bien, l'un d'eux était un ranch de chevaux quand je pouvais le faire parce que j'élevais des chevaux et je travaillais dans un ranch. Les discothèques, nous allions dans les discothèques. Bien sûr, quand nous étions en âge de le faire. J'allais aussi à des soirées dansantes à l'église et d'autres choses, d'accord. Les bals d'école à l'université et les réunions à l'université. Abbey B : Oui, bien sûr. Avez-vous assisté à des concerts dans les années 70 ? Joan P : Oh, oui. Oui, des groupes locaux, parfois ils jouaient dans les rappels et au parc, et j'ai aussi assisté à de grands concerts, comme les Bee Gees. Abbey B : Quoi, comme des artistes spécifiques, vous savez, je veux dire, comme des musiciens, comme des groupes et des chanteurs qui étaient vraiment populaires à cette époque, au début des années 70. Joan P : Oui, j'adore les Bee Gees. Je crois que c'est en 1968 que j'ai entendu ma première chanson des Bee Gees et je suis une fan depuis et j'ai rencontré, comme vous le savez, j'ai rencontré deux des trois Bee Gees, il n'y en a qu'un de vivant maintenant, mais oui. J'aime donc le disco. J'aime la musique folklorique comme j'aimais Harry Chapin. Umm, vous savez ? Lionel Richie, j'aime la musique R&B. Comme Diana Ross, toutes ces Gladys Knight. Aretha Franklin. Abbey B : Puis-je vous poser une question sur le disco ? Est-ce qu'il y avait une grande scène disco au début des années 70 ou qu'est-ce qu'on cultivait à propos du disco ? Joan P : Le disco était si cultivant parce qu'il était si vivant. C'est vrai. Et la danse était tellement géniale. C'était tellement cool, n'est-ce pas ? Alors oui, il y avait de la musique, on dansait et on s'amusait. Abbey B : Cela semble vraiment amusant. Joan P : C'est vrai. Abbey B : Je ne sais pas si vous le savez, mais en ce moment, il y a une tendance appelée silent disco et les gens écoutent de la musique, pas de la musique disco, mais ils appellent ça une silent disco, avec des écouteurs. Joan P : Oh oui. Abbey B : C'est très amusant, mais ce n'est probablement pas aussi vivant que le vrai disco. Joan P : Oui, c'est drôle, ils font ça aussi sur les bateaux de croisière maintenant. Ils ont des discothèques sur les bateaux de croisière et oui, vous mettez les écouteurs. Abbey B : Nous utilisons maintenant le terme "culture de la fête" pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à l'université ? Joan P : Eh bien, il y en avait. Il y avait différents groupes. Il y avait ce que j'appelais les fêtards et certains d'entre eux avaient de bonnes notes parce qu'ils n'avaient pas à travailler pour ça comme moi. Et d'autres, vous savez, ne se souciaient pas de leurs notes. Et puis il y avait certains d'entre nous. On se souciait de nos notes, alors on continuait à faire des fêtes et tout ça. On allait toujours en discothèque, mais rien de bien folichon. Abbey B : Dans les années 1960, les artistes du rock'n'roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Est-ce que vos parents considéraient le rock'n'roll comme une forme de rébellion ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire à l'époque ? Joan P : Ils ne le considéraient pas du tout comme rebelle. J'étais la plus jeune de ma famille. Il y avait toujours de la musique dans notre foyer, du big band au rock'n'roll comme Elvis Presley dans les années 50 et 60 et les Beatles. Puis dans les années 70, avec le disco et tout le reste. Mes parents ont donc grandi avec l'évolution de la musique et n'y ont pas vu de problème. Abbey B : C'est bien. Ok, question suivante, certaines voix de la culture des jeunes des années 70 encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur les campus ou simplement dans les environs au début des années 1970 ? Joan P : Oui, c'est vrai. Les drogues étaient disponibles et si vous en vouliez, vous saviez où les trouver, comme c'était le cas à l'époque et comme c'est le cas aujourd'hui, et vous saviez qui étaient les consommateurs et tout ça. Moi-même, je n'ai jamais. Je ne l'ai jamais fait jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Je n'ai jamais pris de drogue. Je me suis donc tenu à l'écart de tout ça, probablement en partie parce que j'ai vu des gens qui, vous savez, prenaient de mauvaises drogues, et qui ont eu des crises de nerfs. Je me souviens encore d'un concert dans les années 70 auquel j'ai assisté et où quelqu'un avait pris de l'acide et a commencé à paniquer. Ils ont dû faire venir l'ambulance St. John's pour emmener la personne, donc c'est probablement ce qui m'a sauvé et m'a empêché de prendre de la drogue. Abbey B : Oui, bien sûr, et plus tôt, vous avez parlé des groupes et des fêtards. Diriez-vous que le groupe des fêtards était plus enclin à participer à ce genre de choses ? Joan P : Oui, oui, oui, certainement. Abbey B : Voilà pour la partie consacrée à la culture pop. Passons maintenant à l'expérience féminine. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, selon lequel, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience à l'université au début des années 70 ? Joan P : Oui, parce qu'il y avait encore ce sentiment que, vous savez, les femmes n'avaient pas besoin d'une éducation supérieure. Et c'est en quelque sorte ce que mon père ressentait. Je veux dire qu'il a changé avec le temps, mais il pensait que les garçons devaient aller à l'université. Les garçons doivent aller à l'université. Les filles ? Pas tant que ça. Ma mère, elle, n'était pas féministe, mais peut-être que pour sa génération, elle l'était à sa façon parce qu'elle travaillait à l'extérieur de la maison, alors que la plupart de mes amies de l'époque n'avaient pas de travail à l'extérieur de la maison. Oui, mais ma mère a toujours soutenu l'éducation. C'est vrai, mais ma mère a toujours soutenu l'éducation. Abbey B : Selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada au début des années 1970 ? Joan P : Le féminisme, pour moi, c'était prendre position pour pouvoir faire ce en quoi on croyait, n'est-ce pas ? Et d'avoir un droit de regard sur son propre corps. Ainsi, si vous vouliez aller à l'école, vous pouviez aller à l'école si vous vouliez faire quelque chose, vous savez, faire tomber les barrières. Vous savez, il y a certaines choses que j'ai faites et j'ai été la première. La première femme à avoir l'opportunité de le faire et donc c'est quelque chose que, oui, le féminisme était une façon d'aller de l'avant. Faire ce que l'on voulait faire. Abbey B : Puis-je vous demander quelles sont les choses que vous avez faites en premier en tant que femme ? Joan P : D'accord. L'une des choses que j'ai été la première à faire, c'est dans les institutions financières où j'ai travaillé. J'ai eu beaucoup de chance dans ma carrière, j'ai pu y progresser et j'ai été la première femme à rendre compte au directeur des investissements. J'ai été la première femme à faire partie de son équipe de direction, ce qui était assez incroyable. Je dois dire que je n'y suis pas allée en pensant ou en me disant que cela m'était dû. J'y suis allée en étant reconnaissante et en soutenant également le directeur des investissements parce que c'était nouveau pour lui, c'était également nouveau pour moi, et nous avons donc essayé de nous aider l'un l'autre à manœuvrer correctement dans cette situation. Et j'étais un peu choqué. Il s'agissait d'un homme d'un certain âge, qui occupait manifestement un poste de haut niveau, surtout à l'époque. Certains de ses collaborateurs étaient un peu plus jeunes. Ils m'ont donc beaucoup soutenu. Je n'ai donc pas ressenti de rejet, à l'exception d'un ou deux sur dix, mais ils ont fini par m'entourer. Oh, j'ai aussi été la première femme, dans l'église que je fréquentais, à siéger au Conseil d'administration national canadien. Abbey B : Les distinctions entre les sexes étaient donc plus prononcées dans les années 1970 qu'elles ne le sont aujourd'hui. En quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait-il par un traitement et des attentes différents dans la salle de classe, sur le lieu de travail ou même lors d'événements sociaux ? Joan P : C'est vrai, c'est vrai. J'ai eu une expérience à l'université où, même si c'était dans les années 70 et qu'il y avait plus de femmes à l'université que dans la décennie précédente, mes notes étaient si bonnes que le directeur de l'université m'a dit que je n'étais pas une femme. Mais mes notes étaient si bonnes que le doyen a voulu me voir. Je ne savais pas pourquoi il voulait me voir. J'avais peur, je pensais que j'allais avoir des problèmes. Et il m'a dit : " Je voulais juste entendre ton histoire parce que tes notes sont vraiment, vraiment incroyables ". Alors je veux dire, j'étais juste en état de choc, d'accord ? Alors oui, désolé, c'était quoi la question déjà ? Abbey B : Oui, tout va bien. Comment avez-vous été traitée différemment parce que vous étiez une femme au travail, à l'école ou même simplement lors d'événements sociaux ? Joan P : Oui. L'une des choses que j'ai vécues en tant que première femme, c'est que parfois, en tant que femmes, nous nous retenons les unes les autres. Alors il y avait des gens qui étaient, je ne veux pas dire jaloux, mais on se disait "comment se fait-il que tu fasses ça ?". Et d'autres étaient tellement heureuses pour moi. Ils me soutenaient et tout ça. Ça existait déjà à l'époque. Abbey B : Oui. Aviez-vous l'impression d'avoir des attentes différentes parce que vous étiez une femme ? Joan P : Non, pas vraiment. Je voulais simplement être traitée comme tout le monde. Abbey B : Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes à votre université ou des départements ou même des clubs où les femmes étaient moins présentes, comme si elles ne faisaient pas partie de ce type de diplôme ou n'étaient tout simplement pas acceptées dans ce type de diplôme ? Joan P : Oui, c'est vrai. Alors oui, dans le monde des affaires, il y avait certainement plus d'hommes que de femmes. Et puis j'ai travaillé dans la comptabilité et quand j'ai commencé à étudier la comptabilité, il y avait une forte domination masculine. Et puis, quand je suis allée dans la division des investissements, il y avait très peu d'hommes. Je pense que c'est en partie pour cela que j'ai été la première femme de cette division à rendre compte au directeur des investissements, parce que c'était très masculin. Abbey B : Oui. Joan P : Et il s'agissait de postes de direction, n'est-ce pas ? Donc, il n'y avait pratiquement aucune femme, même à des postes de direction, sans parler de moi qui accédait à un poste de direction. Abbey B : Umm, donc maintenant la dernière section est. Eh bien, il y a deux petites sections supplémentaires que je n'avais pas réalisées, donc cette section porte sur les différences générationnelles. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est en quelque sorte rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Joan P : Oui, c'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Je suppose que la génération précédente était considérée comme très conservatrice et ne profitait pas de la vie autant que possible parce qu'elle avait traversé la guerre, la dépression et d'autres choses du même genre. Et moi, je n'ai pas connu cela. Je suis née après cela, ce qui a donné un style de vie plus libre et plus facile. C'est vrai. Et donc l'envie d'explorer des choses, alors que dans leur génération, ils ne font pas ça. Alors oui, est-ce que ça répond à la question ? Abbey B : Oui. Dans quelle mesure votre génération croyait-elle que vos parents ne seraient pas comme les vôtres, mais que les parents de l'époque avaient des notions de genre, de rencontres familiales et qu'elles étaient dépassées ? Joan P : C'est vrai. Et c'est là que mon père et ma mère étaient très différents l'un de l'autre. Je pense que ma mère, parce qu'elle était une femme indépendante pour son époque et qu'elle avait travaillé, j'ai travaillé en dehors de la maison et qu'elle était très favorable à l'éducation des femmes et à des choses comme ça. Elle était donc plus, euh, ouverte à, vous savez, les rencontres. Elle était ouverte à des choses comme le fait de ne pas avoir à ramener le petit ami à la maison lors du premier rendez-vous et des choses comme ça, n'est-ce pas ? Alors que mon père était plus conservateur, il ne voulait même pas de rendez-vous. Jusqu'à ce que tu aies 21 ans ou quelque chose comme ça. Abbey B : Oui, oui, oui. Joan P : Alors oui, c'était assez amusant, mais c'était difficile d'avoir un parent qui se sentait d'une certaine façon et l'autre parent qui était très conservateur et traditionnel. Abbey B : Pensez-vous que cela a affecté votre vie amoureuse à l'époque, ces deux types de figures contradictoires ? Joan P : Cela ne m'a pas arrêtée, mais il y avait certainement une pointe d'inconfort. Définitivement. Abbey B : OK, alors si on regarde les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne voyez-vous qui était le plus détraqué et qui avait le plus besoin d'être corrigé ? Joan P : C'était juste un sentiment général de, vous savez, laissez notre génération être notre génération et n'essayez pas de nous ramener à la génération précédente, n'est-ce pas ? Je ne sais pas si vous vous sentez comme ça dans votre génération aujourd'hui, mais c'est un peu ce que j'ai ressenti et ce sera le cas parce que c'était, c'était aussi, vous savez, c'était encore l'ère de la paix. C'était encore, vous savez, les premiers jours du féminisme. Abbey B : Oui, oui, je comprends. Je comprends ce sentiment et je le comprends tout à fait. J'ai l'impression qu'en tant que génération Z, c'est un peu la même chose pour nous que pour la génération du millénaire et même avant, la génération de mes parents, comme la génération X, il y a comme cette nouvelle vague de, vous savez ce que je veux dire, de changement social et de choses comme ça, qui n'est pas nécessairement en contradiction totale avec les générations précédentes, mais c'est juste un nouveau groupe de personnes dans ce monde. Joan P : Oui, parce que même des choses comme, vous savez, la guerre du Vietnam et d'autres guerres et d'autres choses. C'est comme, pourquoi ne pouvons-nous pas avoir la paix, l'amour et l'harmonie ? Abbey B : Puis-je vous poser une question sur la guerre du Vietnam ? Joan P : Je ne comprenais pas, je ne comprenais pas le but. Voir, vous savez, des vies perdues, et je me souviens encore, vous savez, des nouvelles de l'époque. On voyait les bombes exploser, les mines terrestres et tout le reste. Et je me demande pourquoi nous ne pouvons pas vivre ensemble dans la paix et l'harmonie. Qu'est-ce que ça va donner à la fin ? Oui, c'est ça. Abbey B : Quelles étaient les principales formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne au cours des années 1970 ? Joan P : Vous savez, au Canada nous avions, nous avions le je ne me souviens plus ce que c'était et parce que ça s'est poursuivi dans les années 70, vous aviez le vous aviez le FLQ au Québec et là où ils ont eu un impact sur moi c'est dans les années 60. J'ai vécu à Montréal pendant près de deux ans. Mon père a été muté là-bas et nous avons déménagé. Mon père m'a envoyé dans une école française où les enfants apprenaient l'anglais, alors j'étais l'un des rares enfants à apprendre le français et c'était une toute nouvelle école, une belle école, n'est-ce pas ? Je me suis demandé pourquoi. C'était une telle injustice. C'est vrai. Et il y a eu un enlèvement et un assassinat à l'époque. Et je me suis dit, non, ce n'est pas juste. Et c'est comme, non, ce n'est pas juste. Abbey B : Aviez-vous l'impression que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? Joan P : Eh bien, certainement pas pour ma génération, surtout en tant que femme, parce que vous n'aviez aucun droit de regard sur votre propre corps, n'est-ce pas ? Mais les choses ont commencé à changer. Une femme devrait pouvoir faire ce qu'elle veut dans le cadre de la loi, n'est-ce pas ? Mais tout ce qu'un homme peut faire, une femme devrait pouvoir le faire, et une femme devrait avoir son mot à dire sur son propre corps. Peu importe que vous y croyiez ou non. C'est le principe de pouvoir le faire. Abbey B : Quand avez-vous découvert cela en termes de système politique ? Quand avez-vous constaté que les choses commençaient à changer en faveur, vous savez, d'une situation plus juste pour les femmes ? Joan P : Entre le milieu et la fin des années 70, mais c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui. Abbey B : Oh bien sûr. Joan P : Vous savez, il y a toujours un plafond de verre. Abbey B : Tout à fait. Joan P : Il y a encore, vous savez, avec je pense à, vous savez, Suzanne Sommers, qui vient de mourir. C'est vrai ? Je veux dire, toutes les barrières qu'elle, vous savez, a essayé d'abattre et et certaines d'entre elles, vous savez, elle a subi des représailles comme toute l'affaire de Three's Company quand vous savez John Ritter gagnait cinq fois plus qu'elle ne gagnait maintenant. Je crois qu'il était aussi scénariste. Il n'était donc pas seulement acteur dans la série, il était aussi scénariste. Mais il gagnait toujours 1/5 de ce qu'il gagnait. Et c'est là qu'elle s'est insurgée. Elle a été virée, c'est ça ? Et c'était vraiment mal. Et puis ce qui a empiré les choses, comme je le disais tout à l'heure, comment les femmes se retournent parfois contre les femmes, c'est qu'elle a subi des représailles et pour avoir fait ça, on lui a dit qu'elle était cupide et égoïste, et c'est comme si c'était non. Abbey B : Elle ne l'était pas, elle ne l'était pas. Joan P : Non, elle ne l'était pas. Est-ce que cela répond à la question ? Abbey B : Oui, c'est sûr, ne vous inquiétez pas. Cette dernière section est umm, je ne sais pas vraiment comment la résumer. Il s'agit de la famille, du mariage et de ce genre de choses. Je vais donc lire ce petit texte au début, qui dit que "les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague au début des années 1970". Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ou que pensez-vous de cette affirmation ? Joan P : Oui, les choses ont changé à l'époque et à juste titre parce que cela revient à ce que j'ai dit plus tôt, à savoir qu'une femme devrait avoir le droit de regard sur son propre corps, n'est-ce pas ? Je ne dirai pas si je suis pour ou contre l'avortement, mais l'avortement est le choix de la femme, n'est-ce pas ? Je suis tellement attristée par ce qui se passe en Amérique. On rend l'avortement illégal et on dit que non, c'est le corps d'une femme et qu'une femme doit pouvoir décider de son corps. C'est la même chose pour la pilule, n'est-ce pas ? Dans les années 60, une femme ne pouvait pas aller chez son médecin. Il fallait avoir, je ne sais pas, 18 ans ou quelque chose comme ça pour prendre la pilule. A moins que les parents ne le sachent à 18 ans, n'est-ce pas ? Sérieusement. Ce n'est pas normal, n'est-ce pas ? Et donc si vous voulez prendre la pilule, et je veux dire que j'ai été élevée dans la religion catholique. Je ne suis plus catholique, mais l'Église catholique est contre toute forme de contrôle des naissances. Et je ne sais pas si c'est encore le cas, mais c'était aussi une erreur à l'époque, n'est-ce pas ? Les choses ont commencé à s'améliorer, mais il a fallu beaucoup de temps pour en arriver là où nous en sommes aujourd'hui. Abbey B : Oui, bien sûr, parce que je trouve que la pilule contraceptive, en particulier, est faite pour moi. Je n'ai pas l'impression que quelque chose aurait pu mal se passer. C'est à ce point normalisé dans la société d'aujourd'hui. Joan P : C'est vrai. Abbey B : C'est comme si je n'avais jamais pensé que cela aurait été un problème, ce qui est probablement fou d'y penser. Euh, mais oui, je connais beaucoup de gens qui ont mon âge maintenant, ou même quand j'étais au lycée, qui ont été autorisés à prendre la pilule contraceptive, et il n'y a pas eu de complications. Joan P : Oui, je veux dire, en y repensant, c'était tellement mal, n'est-ce pas ? Et oui, c'est tout simplement fou. Alors je suis contente qu'elle soit là où elle est aujourd'hui. C'est certain. C'est beaucoup mieux. Abbey B : À quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'université dans les années 70 ? Joan P : Il y en avait encore qui se disaient, eh bien, je ne vais pas l'appeler. Il doit m'appeler. Je ne vais pas l'inviter à sortir. Il doit me demander, et si vous l'avez emmenée à un rendez-vous, c'est lui qui paie. C'est ça ? Et donc il y avait encore un peu de ça, mais je n'ai jamais été. Je n'ai jamais aimé ça. C'est comme si c'était non. Si je veux te parler, je t'appelle. Si tu veux me parler, je t'appelle. Et si je veux sortir, je te demande de sortir, d'accord ? Et quand tu vas à un rendez-vous, qui peut se le permettre ? Abbey B : Est-ce que tu as trouvé que puisque tu parlais du fait que tu travaillais très fort à l'université pour avoir de bonnes notes et des choses comme ça, est-ce que tu as trouvé que puisque tu travaillais très fort dans un programme qui était plus, comme, dominé par les hommes, cela t'a un peu empêchée de sortir avec quelqu'un ? Vous étiez plus concentrée sur vos études. Joan P : Oh oui, certainement. Abbey B : Comment votre génération voyait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Est-ce que c'était une obligation ? Joan P : Oui, c'était une sorte de, je ne sais pas, c'était une sorte de va-et-vient, n'est-ce pas ? C'était comme, vous savez quoi ? Si vous vous mariez, ça devrait être pour la vie. Un engagement à vie. C'était un peu le sentiment, non ? Et si ce n'est pas le cas, alors ce n'est pas juste, comme si vous ne parliez pas de mariage, alors vous savez que cela ne fait pas partie de l'équation en termes d'engagement à vie. C'est comme ça. Abbey B : Aviez-vous l'impression que les femmes devaient avoir des enfants à l'époque ? Est-ce que c'était encore une exigence dans la vie ? Joan P : C'était encore assez courant, mais j'ai connu des gens qui n'auraient jamais pu avoir d'enfants. Je pense qu'il y avait encore des hommes qui voulaient que les choses se passent ainsi. Disons les choses comme elles sont. Il était rare que quelqu'un se marie et n'ait pas d'enfants, comme c'était le cas dans les années 70. On a tendance à se marier plus jeune, non ? On a tendance à se marier plus jeune, non ? et même parfois à l'université, mais on n'a pas d'enfants tout de suite. D'autres se marient et ont des enfants tout de suite. Bang, bang, bang et puis c'est fini. Abbey B : Comment la génération de vos parents voyait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Est-ce que c'était une sorte de va-et-vient ou est-ce que ça penchait plutôt du côté de la nécessité de se marier et d'avoir des enfants ? Joan P : Oui, c'est vrai. C'est amusant parce que c'était encore une sorte de vision traditionnelle, ouais, vous savez, marié et enfants et bla, bla, bla. Et pourtant mes parents ont divorcé dans les années 60. En plus, ils étaient catholiques, non ? C'était vraiment bizarre. Abbey B : Le divorce était-il mal vu dans les années 70 aussi ? Joan P : Oui, je dirais que oui et peut-être aussi pour Kitchener Waterloo parce que c'est un milieu très allemand/européen. Les valeurs familiales traditionnelles étaient donc très fortes, oui. Mais il y avait encore des gens qui restaient mariés et qui avaient des liaisons et d'une certaine façon cela était justifié. Abbey B : Eh bien, je n'ai plus de questions, ce qui signifie que cet entretien est terminé. Merci beaucoup Joan. Joan P : Pas de problème, Abbey. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Planta, Joan (Interview) Description An account of the resource Interview on Wilfrid Laurier in the 1970s and how the 70s was for a woman in her 20s. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived October 18th, 2023. Family Feminism Gender Person An individual. Birth Date 1956 Birthplace Kitchener, ON Canada Schools Attended Conestoga College Wilfrid Laurier University Degree BA Career business Occupation Accounting, Finance, Investments and HR (Major Financial Institution in Canada) Ethnicity German Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Planta, Joan Person An individual. Birth Date 1957 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1973-1976 Conservatoire d'art dramatique de Québec, 1976-1979 Degree BA Career creative industries Occupation Playwright and poet Ethnicity French Religious Culture chose not to respond Devotional Life chose not to respond Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation chose not to respond Bibliography Nutting, Stéphanie. "Jean Marc Dalpé." <em>The Canadian Encyclopedia</em>. Historica Canada. Article published April 02, 2007; Last Edited December 16, 2013. Biographical Text Théâtre Action Le Théâtre d'la Vieille 17 Théâtre du Nouvel-Ontario Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jean-Marc Dalpé Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aubin, Janelle Location The location of the interview Val-des-monts, Québec, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Janelle Aubin : C'est en train de loader Jean-Marc Dalpé : Ouais enregistrer transcription JA : ok parfait donc nous sommes aujourd'hui le 24 octobre 2023 il est 11 h et 2 mon nom c'est Janelle Aubin et je vais interviewer Jean-Marc Dalpé à travers teams en but de recherche sur la vie sur le campus de l'université d’Ottawa au courant des années 70. Donc la question principal c'est que les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision Hollywood la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés les uns aux autres. JMD : Okay, oui oui oui je pense que ça c'est clair que la télévision, la culture populaire américaine est devenu à à partir de la 2e guerre mondiale surtout les années 50 puis après 60 quand moi je suis moi je suis née en 57 tout ça c'est devenu de plus en plus présent dans la vie des des gens puis ça ça a une espèce de hégémonie de la la culture tu sais la là ça ça ça prend de plus en plus de place à travers toutes ces années-là la télévision c'est une grosse un gros gros grosse affaire qui est arrivée parce que y avait pas ça ça ça arrive quand moi je suis moi je me souviens de la de la la vieille TV en noir et blanc au milieu du salon c'est tout nouveau tout ça ça et on avait a Ottawa notamment on avait mais il y avait il y avait CTV CBC puis Radio-Canada je pense c'est c'est tout ce qu'il y avait comme comme comme poste qu'on pouvait avoir avec nos antennes bougeait comme ça là ça va c'est bon puis on regarde toute cette culture là est arrivée certainement certainement en masse Cela dit de jusque dans encore des années 70 les il y a quand même une grosse il y a il y a il y a quand même plus de de différence peut-être entre la culture populaire américaine canadienne anglaise et canadienne-française francophone ouais il y a pour ce qui est de l'université comme tel les on était beaucoup plus je pense en plus aujourd'hui fait que je peux pas en parler mais on était clairement plus plus indépendant les les uns des autres moi dans le moi dans le dans le département de théâtre faculté des arts littérature tout ça on avait on avait très très peu de contact avec avec les étudiants anglophones en général même que nous autres donc moi je me souviens j'ai été une des premières classes à faire un projet avec les anglos on avait on avait on avait fait un cabaret un cabaret puis on avait avec les francophones que les anglophones qui ont travaillé ensemble et que c'était un des premiers projets où il y avait une collaboration où on faisait quelque chose ensemble et fait que voilà c'était c'était pas ouias ouias y avait il y avait il y avait quand même des des il y avait il y avait des contacts mais il y avait beaucoup moins de contacts je pense qu'aujourd'hui voilà. JA : Ben aujourd'hui comme moi je suis dans le programme bilingue donc ils ont fait je sais pas s'il y avait à votre temps mais le programme bilingue donc je prends des cours avec les anglophones so je peux rencontrer des anglophones puis des francophones ça c'est plus intégré je trouve que ce que tu disais là. JMD : oui mais c'est je connais pas les je pense ça va d'une d'une faculté à l'autre et des départements JA : Oui JMD : et des je pense que encore aujourd'hui le le cours de théâtre je crois pas qu'il y ait beaucoup de cours de théâtre qui soit en formule bilingue là tu sais sa sa ferait pas de sense. JA : Oui, oui, parfait, donc la prochaine question c'est il y avait moins d'appareils électroniques dans la société société canadienne des années 1970 comment était structurée votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants de l'université d'ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 JMD : Oh on se parlait à il y avait pas de non certainement il y avait zéro zéro appareil dit tout ça ça c'était ça c'est clair clair il y avait il y avait au niveau au niveau médias ce qui existait évidemment c'est bon à part la télé la radio il y avait on allait je je pense en tout cas on allait beaucoup au cinéma en tout cas c'est un souvenir que j'avais il y avait les il y avait les parties puis les puis puis les danses les toutes sortes d'activités de sociales comme ça mais l'autre l'autre moi c’est parce que surtout à Ottawa moi c'est surtout les ces années-là j'allais souvent souvent au Town cinéma ce qui est qui a qui était à l'époque sur beechwood tu vien pas d'ottawa fait que peut-être ça te dit rien mais sur beechwood c'est juste à vanier ou juste l'autre bord proche de vanier c'était là qui était le le temps c'était un cinéma de répertoire c'est on déménagé c'est devenu le bytown qui est sur rideau maintenant mais qui est pas pas tout à fait pareil nous autres à l'époque ce cinéma là c'était incroyable quand j'y repense je dis Oh my god c'était incroyable cétait criteria netflix all wrapped into one so fallait vraiment que t’aille là, pour pour aller voir il y avait une programmation extraordinaire de tout le cinéma mondial tu pouvais rentrer là aller voir 2 films de fini un film de Bergman puis un film c'était on avait retrouver les les programmations de cette époque là c'était vraiment assez assez assez incroyable je suis devenu un peu cinéphile avec avec années-là parce que j'avais j'avais la chance de voir des affaires qu'on voyait jamais jamais certainement pas à TV tu sais fait que des des films américains mais aussi comme je dis de des films des films français des films italiens suédois de partout c'est japonais les Korosawa savoir les toutes ces tu sais des des des grands grands films qui aujourd'hui c'est en fait si t'as pas accès à à les des bonnes des bonnes plateformes c'est de c'est devenu en fait c'est le c'est c'est des des fois c'est devenu encore plus difficile d'avoir accès à ce cinéma là en tout cas nous autres on avait ça c'était on sort moi en tout cas je j'ai beaucoup de souvenirs d'avoir passé beaucoup beaucoup de temps au temps d'ailleurs j'ai vu je pensais ni première fois c'était jouer à Ottawa c'est the Rocky horror picture show dit quelque chose le le phénomène rocky horror i was there la première fois mais il y a c'est il y avait il y avait pas juste des des des grands films compliqués là des suédois puis des italiens dans ce cinéma là il y avait aussi des des choses plus populaires plus fun mais toujours un peu off beat là tu sais un peu un peu sa marge là c'était c'était pas mal voilà en tout cas il y avait ça à autrement le plaisir écoute vraiment je je me souviens d'être d'être d'être dans les bars dans les danses d'aller danser d'aller tu sais de de toute ce ou des faut dire aussi pour moi mon c'est un peu particulier parce que c'est les années où je suis en train d'étudier je pensais très très j'ai pas eu des bonnes notes mais je prenais ça très au sérieux parce que je voulais être un acteur puis je voulais travailler dans le théâtre fait que moi je je jouais dans toutes les c'est une année j'ai joué dans 10 shows, 10 spectacles pendant l'année en fait que j'étais quand j'étais pas en cours puis pas au cinéma j'étais en répétition avec la gang pour monter des pièces de théâtre pour monter des spectacles les spectacles pit de joué fait que moi c'est ma vie sociale ma vie, que sa vie sociale c’était beaucoup avec avec les les camarades de travail pour le théâtre tout ça. JA : Okay. JA : La prochaine question, c'est comme similaire là, ça dit quels étaient les lieux de rencontre les plus populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur? Comme je sais pas si les bâtiments étaient toutes les mêmes nous autres, on a un nouveau qui s’appelle Learning crossroads. Ça c'est comme le lieu le plus populaire sur le campus, donc je sais pas ce qu'il y avait comme. Des édifices spécifiques les étudiants ils allaient étudier ou juste hanger autre pendant les classes. JMD : Hanger out veut dire dans mon souvenir il y avait autour de la bibliothèque d'un grand grand édifice où il y a le la bibliothèque je recommence c'est c'est ça que tu veux dire par le learning c'est de l'espèce de grosse édifice la bibliothèque la, où il y a je pense JA : Il y a la bibliothèque Morriset puis là après ça il y a comme une nouvelle building qui ont comme fait un passage puis là c'est une pleine nouvelle building ça s’appelle learning crossroads ça c'est comme c'est nouveau là ça fait comme je pense c'était 2019 que ça a été construit. JMD : Fait que évidemment ça ça existe de de bibliothèque Morriset ça ça venait d'être construit quand moi j'ai j'étais là en 74 ça venait c'était comme le le le nouvel édifice était là il y avait juste la petite la le vieil édifice de la faculté des arts qui était là il y a une couple d'autres il y avait le Ben tu sais dans l'édifice de la bibliothèque et le centre il t'appelait le centre universitaire nous autres il y avait une salle de théâtre qui était là il y avait un Agora où les gens se rencontraient souvent il y avait un bar en haut dans un des dans un des dans pas loin on allait là pas trop souvent mais de temps en temps puis ouais c'est ça moi moi c'est le l'ancienne édi- sur sur laur laurier tu sais y a tabaret le gros là ça ça existait puis juste juste en face là sur le lier le le vieil édifice c'est celle-là le le département de théâtre. JA : Ah oui, okay ouais je sait de quel vous parler de là. JMD : Et de de de théâtre puis d'arts visuel aussi qui était là à l'époque évidemment le le JA : Je sais pas JMD : Pardon? JA : Je ne me souviens pas du nom de l'édifice j'essaie de penser JMD : Moi non plus je sais pas, je pense que sa changer de nom. Et fait que évidemment à l'université en dans les années 70 était tellement plus petit que que ce que vous connaissez c'était beaucoup plus Franco pendant toutes ces années-là je je il leur faudrait sortir les chiffres exacts la la proportion mais dans mon souvenir c'était comme 40,60,40 pourcent Franco tu sais moi j'ai une petite date contre l'université d'ottawa dans ce sens-là parce que c'est tu sais la toi toi qui vient de se greffer la leur la laurentienne l'université d’Ottawa c'était il y avait l'université de Sudbury qui était Franco qui avait une université d’Ottawa qui était Franco unilingue francophone le dans jusque dans les débuts jusqu'en 70 je pense puis même chose un peu à Sudbury puis là on nous a fait toutes sortes de grosses promesses et on nous a dit que ça allait être que ça allait être parfait puis ça va être nous donner beaucoup plus accès à une meilleure éducation pas pas pas institution bilingue oui tous vos droits vont être protégés oui oui vous allez être assuré de and we know what happened there, certainement la Laurentienne, en tout cas puis je pense tu veux dire il y a il y a beaucoup de débats à propos de du des services en français à l'université d'ottawa qui sont beaucoup moins ce ce mais nous autres on c'était le début fait qu'on on avait on on se on se on avait moins à se battre à ce niveau-là pour ces services là fait que ben ce que je voulais raconter surtout c'est que juste c’est tellement plus petit tu sais on juste quelques je sais pas quelques milliers dizaines de milliers je sais pas je je veux pas là vous êtes rendu à 60 60 c'est combien vous êtes à l’Université d’Ottawa? JA : Je pense, je pense je dirait 60,000? JMD : c'est ça c'est ce que je c'est ce que j'avais c'est à partir des années 90 que ça commençait vraiment à augmenter très à l'adversaire a fait le choix de de se démocratiser c'est un bon choix de de donner accès à l'éducation supérieure à un plus grand nombre c'est formidable tout ça mais nous autres c'était comme toute une autre situation fait que nous autres c'était c'était beaucoup plus petit puis comme je dis on connaissait pas beaucoup les anglais fait que c'est encore plus petit tu sais dans le sens qu'on des francophones ont été comme fait qu'il y avait il y avait il y avait il y avait quelques places sur le campus où on allait il y avait il y avait comment s'appelle d'autres the Wasteland y a-t-il quelqu'un qui a parlé du Wasteland JA : non JMD : ok ça ok ça ça c'était une institution off beat un caf un café c'était c'était ça existe plus là l'édifice a été rasé proche de King Edward laurier laurier dans dans ce bloc là entre l'église ce que l'église puis le King Edward il y avait un vieil édifice ça s'appelait the Wasteland c’était la première place où tu pouvais aller boire de l'espresso écoute dans les années 70 mais tu sais on connaissait pas ça c'était comme moi puis on avait le droit de fumer évidemment la grande époque des des places complètement fumée comme ça puis mais c'était comme c'est comme la bohème c'était les les les les les plus cools des cools poètes moutier tout ça là ça se passait là où Wasteland entre tes cours tel ou Wasteland tu pouvais manger un petit morceau des sandwichs quelque chose comme ça des muffins y avait muffin je dis ça mais c'est surtout le café plus cigarettes ton âge moi je moi je moi j'étais plus jeune que toi en fait parce qu'on m'a dit que t'avais 19 ans c'est pour ça que je me permets moi je suis allé en 73 moi j'avais 16 ans JA : Oh my god! JMD : j'avais sauté des années, I know I know pas une bonne idée mais c'était ça à l'époque tu pouvais sauter des années si c'était un petit bol ou si tu avais des bonnes notes ce qui a été mon cas pour un petit bout de temps fait que j'avais sauté des années puis je je suis rentré à une première année en j'avais 16 en 73 j'avais 16 ans fait que tu comprends aller dans une classe comme the Wasteland c'est comme tripant 100 milles à l'heure ça c'était le Wasteland ça c'était un une plaie des lancements de poésie des lectures toutes sortes d'affaires toutes sortes d'activités là tu sais tu sais marginale cool j'ajouterais politique c'est il y avait c'est une époque je sais pas si ça va être une autre de tes questions mais c'est une une époque où la la la la politique prend prend beaucoup de place partir des années 70 que ce soit la question féministe gay francophone anti Vietnam tu sais pour la paix c'est toutes toutes ces tous les mouvements de gauche de cette époque-là les mouvements de gauchistes de cette epoque là ça prend beaucoup plus fait que le Wasteland c'est un peu comme le le clubhouse pour tout le monde là, anyway I can’t believe I said that, puis c'est c'est Ben fait à part de ça il y avait il y avait les il y avait les tavernes et bars de la il y avait la il existe encore le château Lafayette la le Laf la on allait au Laf sur dans dans dans dans le dans le marché connais tu ça LaFayette? JA : Je l’ai déjà vu ouais JMD : ok ça c'était une place c'est la c'est c'est c'est la la vie joke tu sais les tables tu tu commandais tu remplissais la table de tu de draft sera passée la table de faire de bière puis il y avait la laf il y avait le il y avait le il y avait le voyons c'est lui qui a le Novotel maintenant mais l'Albion ça s'appelait l'Albion c'était le un vieil hôtel d'ottawa qui s'appelait l'albion qui avait une grosse taverne de taverne là ça aussi c'était un un lieu c'était tout juste à côté de fait que voilà l'alcool et le et les réunions des étudiants. JA : C’est mieux qu’aujourd’hui on a juste le Tim Hortons pit euh ouin JMD : Oh my god non! Ah non, pauvre vous autres, Tim Hortons? Non! JA : C’est juste ca qui a sur le campus je trouve que, au moins j'ai pas découvert rien mais il y a pas de café comme ça c'est de valeur là JMD : Okay. Ben oui JA : la prochaine question je pense c'est déjà la réponse mais c'est; avez-vous assisté à des spectacles musicaux pendant vos années d'université? JMD : oui oui j'étais j'en ai pas fait énormément tu sais-je n'ai jamais été je suis pas je suis allé voir des show tu sais des des shows de de musique des bacs des tu sais mais mais pas j'ai j'ai pas un grand souvenir dans ces années-là d'avoir été souvent dans des dans des concerts certainement pas des gros concerts j'en ai vu mais il y avait Ottawa il y avait Ottawa y avait ce qu'on nous autres on appelait les Ottawa x qui est la qui est Lansdowne Park ça c'était le le le gros stade était souvent là à ce moment-là il y avait il y avait des il y avait des les concerts qui venaient en ville c'était souvent là que j'avais une coupe de fois puis mais j'ai pas été souvent dans des dans mon souvenir là je je faisais d'autres choses JA : Oui, okay, parfait. Prochaine question, okay, Ottawa était une institution bilingue les francophones et les uns anglophones s’inscrivaient-ils au même cours universitaire et participaient-ils aux mêmes clubs? JMD : Non. veut dire ma réponse vite fait c'est non c'était pas il y avait certaines activités bon c'est de c'est frosh week tu sais l'affaire de les les Games de peut-être dans d'autres je je faut dire que la faculté des arts puis le dépendamment de théâtre en particulier département des des arts visuels je pense qui se parlaient plus parce que c'est c'est à cause de la nature des des des cours tout ça mais nous autres moi moi j'étais vraiment dans un une place dans l'université on était vraiment très très centré sur des faits français puis ça se passait pas mal entre nous autres fait que moi et peut-être dans d'autres facultés de médecine ou ou avocat le légal les droits le droit le droit il y a peut-être plus de plus d'échanges tout ça mais moi en tout cas moi dans dans dans mon souvenir c'était assez séparé. JA : ok, les anglophones et les francophones se fréquentaient ils dans les années 1970 JMD : Comme je viens de dire pas beaucoup temps en temps faut dire faut tu comprends juste que moi ma mère est une anglophone ma mère elle vient de de la Nouvelle-Écosse fait que moi je suis parfaitement entre guillemets tu sais un vrai bilingual du du côté de l'Ontario tu sais de tout ça fait que moi je j'avais des amis anglophones en dehors mais pendant les années d'université cette période-là mes amis anglophones est commun ailleurs dans le monde tu sais il était puis voilà fait que c'est une période où j'ai vraiment c'est vraiment ça a été ça a été plus des années francophones. JA : Ok, prochaine question c'est; nous utilisons le terme culture de leur fête pour faire référence aux activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe comment décrivez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus de l'université d’Ottawa au cours des années 70? JMD : Ben écoutez il y avait c'était assez c'était il y a je me souviens d'activités de danse de concert depuis des des affaires comme ça qui se passaient sur le campus mais j'ai pas été j'ai pas été j'étais pas très comme quand je dis-moi j'étais pas très party avec les autres facultés des autres affaires on se dit le théâtre c'est comme c'est comme rentrer en c'est comme rentrer au monastère mais nous autres on faisait le party en nous autres les les tu sais des des des parties de première des parties de dernière de show puis il disait on changeait de show puis tu sais puis il y avait il y avait beaucoup de beaucoup de c'était c'était moi j'ai un j'ai un grand souvenir de d'avoir passé beaucoup de temps à à à danser à chanter à supporter toute le toute cette c'est ça les parties ce que je fais plus je suis trop vieux mais ce que c'est quand j'étais quand j'étais plus jeune fait que c'est ça sur le campus nous autres c'était vraiment des des des fêtes de théâtre de ce monde-là puis en dehors de ça quelques activités c'est puis yeah that’s it là que des il y a un titre c'était pas c'était pas c'était pas comme dans les dans les films américains it wasn’t as crazy as that those frat parties que tu vois dans c'est films I don’t remember those. JA : comme est-ce que vous voyez une différence entre comme votre génération puis la note à cause je trouve que comme les parties que notre génération a sont vraiment comme hors contrôle comme c'est vrai vous avez vu mais la panda Game l'année passée il y a des gens qui ont ce l'année passée ou l'année d'avant y a des gens qui ont comme viré des chars à l'envers puis comme je sais pas si ça a été quelque chose que je pense pas que votre génération aurait faite ça du tout donc comme je trouve qu'il y a une différence. JMD : non il y a il y avait pas cette ces débordements là qu'on voit qu'on voit plus souvent aujourd'hui ou dans tu sais dans d'autres d'autres j’ai pas un souvenir de de de de de cette de de de ces de cette nature là faut dire oui we got Crazy tu sais y avait oui oui oui yeah we got stoned, we got crazy mais il n'y avait pas c'était sa versait pas dans Cela dit encore là euh euhm euh je n'ai pas surpris je n'ai pas surpris d'apprendre qui avait des euh des gens qui qui euh raconteraient des des des cas d'harcèlement ou de je c'était plus ce côté sombre là je pense distant certainement mais était encore plus tabou que qu'aujourd'hui tant mieux que ça se que ça que qu'on qu'on l'accepte plus aujourd'hui mais par rapport à ce que tu dis à propos des des fêtes qui virent yeah yeah, mais tu sais des des des concours de boissons that was all il y avait il y avait pas la mode des shooters encore là ça c'est venu plus tard mais c'était pareil nous autres c'est pas des shooters c'était des bouteilles de vodka mais. JA : Ouais donc il y a quand même une différence entre le temps JMD : Je pense je je pense que je pense qu'on peut dire ça oui définitivement JA : Ouin, parfait donc que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam? JMD : Ah Ben je pense que le le le mouvement moi tu vois moi je suis en s'en est 73 et 74 faut qu'on on s'en vient vers la fin Nixon est au pouvoir Nixon est en train de négocier la sortie des de l'armée américaine Sigon for j'ai vérifié mes dates il y a ce que je suis avec mais je sais pas exactement exactement quand est-ce que la ça avait été repris par les les gens du Nord mais c'est en 75 fait que moi j'arrive moi moi toute ma jeunesse à partir de quand je commence à à regarder la télévision ça c'est ça c'est c'est par rapport à la question à propos de la culture télévisuelle tout ça on n'a pas parlé de spécifiquement des des nouvelles mais moi ça fait partie de ma politisation de de tout ça tu sais moi je suis moi moi je je je je je j'ai juste j'ai juste 6 ans quand Kennedy est assassiné en 63 mais on avait une TV puis j'ai comme un souvenir vague d'avoir vu ces images là qui sont maintenant dans les archives sont des grandes archives et le le le quand quand quand le le gars de la mafia va va porter aswell quantique moi j'ai j'ai entre guillemets c'était les les nouvelles du soir-là tu sais que ça arrivait et à travers toutes ces années-là il y a les tu sais toute toute la montée de du de évidemment de la la les la la lutte des droits civiques des afro-américains comme on appelait des noirs des qu'on appelait negros c'était leur leur leur association le le grandes associations qui qui fait que Martin Luther King moi j'ai vu ça à la TV moi la marche en Selma j'ai vu ça à TV les les manifestations qui se sont réprimées par des des policiers blancs avec des des chiens contre les grands marchés dans le sud des États-Unis j'ai vu tu sais le le le c'est le les les les étudiants se faire cracher dessus parce qu'ils vont dans les écoles noir tu sais ça ça fait partie de ma de de de de de ma jeunesse je voyais tout ça ça se passait au sud et au sud de la frontière mais c'était certainement toujours dans les nouvelles chez nous et à travers ça évidemment il y a la guerre du Vietnam puis les images toutes les images de la guerre du Vietnam qui vont commencer à fait que la chute de bienne bienne bienne les la chute des des des français ça je m'en souviens pas trop trop mais je pense que c'est ça en est un ça en est 2 que j'étais trop jeune mais la montée de de quand les Américains arrivent et prennent de plus en plus de place puis on voit de plus en plus de soldats puis là tout ça 66,67,68 je me souviens des des des des présentations de de LBJ Johnson qui explique pourquoi ce qu'ils vont bombarder le Cambodge that was live on TV, c'est toute cette histoire là de la guerre du Vietnam je le suis et donc je suis aussi le toute le mouvement anti-guerre pro paix qui monte les manifs tout ça tu sais ce qu on veut dire on parle beaucoup de la ou en tu sais on parle c'est à cause de Trump puis à cause de des événements récents aux États-Unis on parle beaucoup de la violence des manifestations depuis 5 6 tu sais donc aux États-Unis que c'est un moment violent et man retourne retourne dans les archives Watts in 67’ Detroit en 68 les les les les les centres-villes brûlaient là tu sais ce qu'on ce qu'on voit pas tu sais il est comme somebody gets killed and it’s like oh my god aujourd'hui mais dans ce temps-là les centres-villes brûlaient il y avait plein de monde qui étaient tués sur les dans les manifs dans les manifestations in the riots in the fait que où est-ce que je m'en vais avec ça j'allais dans le dans juste le côté que ça bardait beaucoup tu sais c'était très c'était c'est très très très présent dans même si je sais moi j'avais juste 15 tu sais j'avais 13, 13, 14 ans non j’avais 12,11,12 ans puis je voyais ça je fais que j'ai suivi toute cette affaire là de la la montée de des militants anti-guerre de du Vietnam fait que je pense quand qu'on arrive en s'en et 73 et 74 on est en pleine tu sais ça ça c'est un mal au top de tout ça fait que réponse à ta question très longue mais mais oui on était au courant et on était il y avait beaucoup de gens dans la contre-culture qui appuyaient des des militants anti guerre du Vietnam sans oublier il y avait aussi les les Américains qui s'enfuyaient des du draft de draft dodgers est-ce que tu es au courant de ça? ça te dit tu quelque chose si je te dis ça? JA : Non JMD : si je te dis ça c'est les Pascal à l'époque hein aux États-Unis il y avait the draft c'est à dire que tout le monde qui était était sujet devait entrer dans l'armée les jeunes hommes à partir de 18 ou 19 ans je me souviens plus devait s'enregistrer pour le draft the draft c'était comme un il choisissait au hasard un paquet de un paquet de noms et tu devais te présenter tu devais faire partie tu devais passer 2,3 ans dans l'armée et tu et si t'étais si t'étais choisi si tu tu devais aller à la guerre si tu sais que c'était fait que il y a eu beaucoup de les jeunes américains qui étaient contre la guerre ou un certain nombre de de jeunes américains qui aussitôt que y arrivaient à l'âge où il pouvait être they could get drafted pourrait être enregistrée dans l'armée il traversait la frontière puis il venait s'en des États-Unis au Canada au Canada à cette époque là on ne les renvoyait pas en aux États-Unis même s'ils étaient des des des fugitifs de la justice américaine on les renvoyait pas parce que le Canada était contre la le Canada avait une position plus neutre à ce moment-là par rapport à la guerre du Vietnam ça fait qu'on les renvoyait pas fait qu'il y a eu plein plein de draft dodgers sont allés surtout sont allés beaucoup à Vancouver dans les grandes villes, Vancouver, Toronto, Montréal il y a eu beaucoup de draft fait il y avait toute ce toutes ces gens-là qui nourrissaient la qui pouvaient parler de la de la des des manifestations contre la guerre du Vietnam il y avait tout un réseau pour les aider il y avait il y avait des il y avait des des gens des canadiens qui les rencontraient à la frontière ou qui traversaient qui allaient les chercher en auto puis les ramener par la frontière pour les pour les sortir de des États-Unis il y avait tout un réseau qui arrivait il y avait du monde qui les recevait chez eux tu sais des des des réfugiés c'est des c'était des réfugiés politiques voilà avec un petit cours d'histoire, je vien de te donne un cours d'histoire. JA : Je ne le savais pas JMD : Les draft dodgers, okay. JA : Ouin je ne le savait pas donc c’est intéressant que je ne savais pas qu'il y avait des gens qui s'enfuient de les États-Unis puis tout ça so, c’est bon à savoir JMD : Haha okay JA : Prochaine question c’est dans les années 1960 les artistes du rock and roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation donc vos parents considéraient ils le rock and roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme une simple forme de musique populaire? JMD : Oh non non non je veux dire moi j'ai j'ai j'ai je suis vraiment de la mes parents sur la génération du Big Bang des des Big Bang puis de du jazz Ben du jazz du Big band swing tu sais Bing crosby Frank Sinatra tous des gens que j'adore écouter des gens que j'adore écouter aujourd'hui mais les mais les non aux autres le rock c’était the Beatles what what was that? Ah y’on des cheveux long oh my god on les garde aujourd'hui on en croit pas a mais oui oui il était il était assis en vous ils m'ont laissé écouter ce que je voulais puis tu sais y a pas c'était pas si pire mon mais pour les autres je sais pas il voyaient ça tellement comme la rébellion que ouais c'est pas c'est pas politisé pour les autres je dirais pas que c'est la politisé c'était des jeunes qui étaient qui étaient un peu fous puis qui faisaient des affaires un peu folles puis mais c'est c'est qu'il prenait pas ça très très au sérieux je te dirais. JA : Okay. JMD : Juste ajouter il n’était pas scandalisé par les par les mouvements de bassin de Elvis Presley comme les gens du Sud des États-Unis qui qui viennent censurer il était mon mes parents ils ont jamais été là là à ce point-là. JA : ouais je comprends quoi vous voulez dire c’était pas la même chose que on voit plus comme aux États là. JMD : Ouais c’est sa the religious right, the religious right ce qu'on appelle qu'on connaît ou bien aujourd'hui qu'on voit aujourd'hui qu'on disait c'est ça existait déjà et c'était déjà un mouvement qui voulait censurer la jeunesse qui voulait censurer les paroles qui voulait censurer tout ce qui est qu'eux autres considéraient comme ça existait déjà JA : Okay, prochaine question certaines voies de la culture des jeunes des années 1970 encouragée ou encourageaient la prise de drogue récréative dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-ils disponibles sur le campus dans les années 70? JMD : Ah Ben lui était complètement disponible comme comme complètement disponible de du du tout le monde connaissait quelqu'un tout le monde connaissait pusher tout le monde avait son pusher ou connaissait un pusher puis il y avait toutes les toute la panoplie de oui c'est c'est c'est surtout veut dire tu sais tout ça ça commence plus plus dans les années 60 toute la la culture tu sais la culture de la surtout du pot de marijuana tout ça le hash tout ça c'est ça c'est surtout dans les années 60 que ça c'est devenu euh que ça s'est popularisé mais que moi moi je dirais que ça s'est blanchi c'est-à-dire c'était réservé pendant plusieurs pendant plusieurs décennies c'était c'était on on gardait ça dans les ghettos hein il y avait il y avait une il y avait une y avait la culture la drogue qu'on connaissait chez le musicien jazz des fois plus beaucoup plus forte par de l'héroïne on parle du smack chez les musiciens jazz ces années 50/60 bien dans les années 60 là ça se popularise, sas sort des ghettos pour le pot devient qui qui avait toujours été connu dit il y a des il y a des vieilles chansons à propos du cocaïne qui date des années 20 fait que c'est pas c'est pas c'est inconnu c'est un mais c'est un peu c'est un peu juste à une élite des gens qui avaient de l'argent il y avait mais là des années 60 waouh là ça là c'est parti c'est parti on ils ont tout le monde moi je moi je me C'est d'ailleurs il semblait y en avait plus à l'école secondaire qu’à l’université mais ça c'est dans mon souvenir. JA : j'assume c'était moins dangereux que ça l'est aujourd'hui avec toutes les variantes JMD : Oui oui oui évidemment je pense qu'on parle de d'autres d'autres choses quand on parle de crack cocaïne puis qu'on parle de de de de toutes les produits chimiques tout ça c'est il y a une autre une autre niveau-là puis il y a les évidemment le fentanyl puis là c'est tout ce qu'on les opiodes toute cette gamme là mais à l'époque il y avait évidemment il y avait tout ce qui s'appelle pot et et et et de de cette de cette variante là il y avait la cocaïne il y avait de l'héroïne qui était qui était disponible sur le marché il y avait d'autres il y avait ce qu'on appelait des speeds mais anyway and uh c'est c'était clairement moins moins dangereux je pense je pense que je pense qu'on peut-on peut dire ça. JA : c'est c'est juste comme je dis pas que je voudrais faire des drogues mais c'est de valeur que comme si je voudrais y a comme c'est pas la même chose qu'à l'époque comme comme dans les 70 tu sais les gens pouvaient juste faire ça puis c'était plus comme ça va pas comme la grosse chance qui a du fentanyl dedans ou c’est laced avec quelque chose que tu peux mourir puis c'est juste comme JMD : Non non non non JA : C’est juste comme une complètement différente histoire aujourd’hui que je trouve vraiment triste parceque il y a des gens que en otage c'est ça on veut expérience hier mais on expérience puis là ici il y a des conséquences très graves comme JMD : beaucoup plus grave beaucoup oui oui oui les choses c'est clair clac que c'était moins dans le il y a il y avait des histoires de tu sais pour gagner plus d'argent la criminalité c'est la criminalité tu sais mais mais clairement c'est beaucoup moins dangereux et évidemment il y a le je peux vous dire la la la la c'est c'est l'épidémie de opioïdes tout ça qui va commencer plus dans les années même 90 début 2000 que il y a le il y a il y a il y a ça qui arrive vraiment sur le marché ou légal et il illégal sa c’est JA : ouais aussi ouais ce n’est pas rapport avec Ben comme c'est pas une question dans l'entrevue mais moi je me pose la question est-ce que vous avez remarqué comme beaucoup des gens sur les rues comme qui aujourd'hui comme avec des aiguilles puis des choses comme ça? JMD : Oh non, non non non non non non non non non non non ça c'est ça c'est extrêmement choquant veut dire pour moi clairement mais non non non il y avait pas de la il y avait il y a toujours eu des des des itinérants des gens dans la rue mais c'était vous dirons moi moi j'ai vu le quand j'ai vu quand on a fermé les institutions psychiatrique et pour cause on ça ça ça a aidé beaucoup beaucoup de gens de les sortir de ces institutions là pour pouvoir s’auto guérir guérir tu sais il y a toutes sortes de bonnes raisons pourquoi ce qu'on a fermé ce qu'on appelait dans le temps les asiles ce qui est ce qui est sûr par exemple c'est que les gouvernements n'ont pas pris leur pleine responsabilité en main pour s'assurer que les gens qu'on sortait des institutions se retrouvent pas dans la rue en en état en en situation d'itinérance fait que moi j'ai vu tout d'un coup le il y avait toujours tu sais il y a toujours eu ce que nous autres on appelait tu sais le robineux le bum, l'alcoolique tu sais qui te panhadling tu sais au coin de la rue il y en avait un c'était c'était très mais je puis je pense qu'on parle des années fin 90 tout d'un coup on ferme les institutions on ferme les éditions les asiles ce qu'on appelait les asiles fait que là il y a plein de monde qui ont des problèmes de santé mentale qui vont se retrouver dans la communauté et qui vont tomber entre les mailles du filet et qui vont se retrouver dans la rue et qui vont ensuite ça s'est détérioré c'est c'est c'est très très choquant je pense c'est certainement choquant pour vous autres pour toi pour vous mais c'est très choquant pour ma génération de voir ça s'accélérer à ce point ci c'est moi je passe toutes les parce que je le suis à Val-des-monts à Perkins mais quand je rentre à Hull Gatineau je vois le ruisseau il y a toutes les tentes le village de tentes je sais pas si t'en a entendu parler ou t'as vu des photos. Du village de tentes proche de de de l'aréna à Hull en tout cas il y a c'est un village y’a comme 30 40 tente du monde qui vit dans le tente, on est au mois de novembre ça pas de bon sens c'est vraiment puis moi je je travaille beaucoup à la nouvelle scène ça c'est sûr King Edward proche de Murray en face ou de biais avec le avec de good sheperd puis tu sais c'est surtout euh pas tu sais dans le bytown je sais pas si t'as passé récemment c'est là c'est là là c'est là c'est it’s like fucking poor people central, it’s like sa pas de bon sens. Le nombre de parce que moi je vois ça je vois ça augmenter depuis des années c'est assez vraiment très très très très choquant JA : C’est ca sa fait pas une bonne expérience sur campus non plus parce que c'est juste ça que c'est juste ce que je vois comme JMD : Oui JA : Et je juste c'est pas beau à voir JMD : non mais non mais non c'est triste et c'est c'est c'est c'est moi j'ai pas seulement mentionné les les gens avec les aiguilles veut dire j'étais en voiture demain Montréal chemin Montréal coin juste juste au pont jusqu'au pont cummings qui traverse vers Ottawa tu sais d'être là devant il y a quelqu'un d'assis dans le bus stop qui y a un policier qui est-il y a une voiture de police de l'autre bord puis tu sais-je me retourne de bord puis je la c'est une jeune femme d'une trentaine d'années je dirais c'est quoi est en train de se piquer de en pleine journée en pleine rue tu sais-je fais where the hell am I c'est quoi voyons c'est c'est c'est que mais oui où est-ce que je suis dansé comme Jean chrétien qui dans dans le plus meilleur dans le plus meilleur pays du monde tu sais hein quoi au Canada à Ottawa puis y a pas de y a pas moyen de pas de cacher ça de d'aider le bon d'aider on a changé la situation fait que voilà je fais que je j'en pactise avec toi pour que je comprends que tu sois choqué par ça JA : Je voulais juste voire ta réponse JMD : Sudbury, Sudbury is so awful, le centre-ville de Sudbury, je sais pas si tu as été la récemment JA : Oui oui JMD : Oh my god juste en dessous du pont là des au-dessus de à côté de la voie ferrée c'est c'est terrible, en tous cas c’est ben ben triste. JA: Okay, Là on passe à la deuxième section puis c'est l'expérience féminine JMD: Oui JA: il y a un petit paragraphe qui dit; les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'il appelle le féministe de la deuxième vague à savoir que du mouvement de la contre-culture du début des années 1970 on cherchait à briser les parieurs entre les sexes cet argument résume-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'université Ottawa au début des années 70? JMD: Oh yeah, absolument absolument c'est on veut dire moi je suis les années 70 toutes toutes mes toutes mes amies eux sont sont très vocales très féministes et c'est c'est c'est moi je je je j'appuie j'appuyais j'appuie j'ai j'ai je mais c'est clair toute toute la gang je les vois toutes Maureen, Penny Nikki toutes les les anglos mais aussi les Franco là j'ai j'ai avec elle sur un projet feminist cabaret, it was wild it was great et c'était oui absolument et c'est en plein la oui c'est c'est clairement identifié à à la 2e vague qui avait qui évidemment avait commencé avec Simone de Beauvoir peu après la on peut appeler la 2e la la 2e guerre mondiale mais qui avait c'était accéléré dans dans les campus pendant les années 60 Women's lib you know the burning of the broth y en a il y avait il y avait toute ce phénomène là mais rendu dans les années 70 c'était c'était encré chez des des chez les jeunes femmes qui étaient à à l'université qui étaient en plein là-dedans fait que oui ça correspond à mon expérience. JA : Ben that’s good. Dans vos propres mots que signifie signifiait le féminisme au Canada au début des années 70? JMD : Euh, euh que signifiait et égalité égalité dans le sens de égalité des chances égalité des opportunités il y avait des gens ont commencé à parler évidemment de de de de de de de c'est que les les les femmes devaient être payées autant que les hommes tu sais y avait tout ça les l'écart entre les les les salaires étaient déjà fous ils étaient encore comme ça fait que ça c'était un gros débat ah et évidemment le le contrôle de de leur corps le contrôle de leur corps c'est pour moi c'est clair je veux dire on est Morgan Tyler c'est quand when when c'est quand le c'est Morgan tTyler c'est dans les années j'ai pas le tu sais de qui je parle quand je fais Morgan Tyler? Ok ça c'est le procès qu'ont un médecin Henry Morgan polar Montréal qui avait une clinique de il y apportait des femmes c'était illégal il a été arrêté il a été emmené en cours le jury là ne l'a pas condamné on le ramena à court le jury n'a pas condamné ça et c'est son cas qui s'est rendu à la Cour suprême et qui va qui va faire que les les juges font écoutez les les les politiciens faut vous réglez ça nous autres on peut pas on peut pas le condamner on peut pas là la loi est anticonstitutionnelle la loi est injuste entre guillemets ce qui fait que ça va être son cas qui va qui va faire que la l'avortement va être dans le pas là à vérifier légaliser pour légaliser parce que c'était pas c'était pas écrit que c'est je sais même pas c'est c'est vraiment l'écrit que c'est les légal mais décriminaliser en tout cas que les que les fait que les femmes avaient accès à l'avortement avaient le droit de fait que c'est son cas ça arrive dans ces années-là fait que c'est clair que ça c'est un ça c'est un gros gros ça fait partie de l'agenda féministe et encore là moi c'est comme ça que je décrirais la le féminisme de ces années-là l'égalité le droit ou le contrôle de son corps. JA : C'est intéressant à cause c’est une différentes vies mais c'est pas différent à cause du encore l'avortement qui est en question mais peut-être pas au Canada mais JMD : oui mais tant attends Polièvre prenne le pouvoir well see about that écoute c'est déjà tu sais y a pas de clinique il y a il y a il y a juste une clinique en il y a pas de clinique à l'île du prince-Édouard avec les femmes sont obligées d'aller en Nouvelle-Écosse et je pense que il y a juste une clinique à Moncton dans tout le Nouveau-Brunswick fait que y en a en Alberta sont en train de de fermer les cliniques et tout ça non non non il écoute c'est get out there get out there get on the streets, faut faut manifester pour les amener la, faut faut, on n’a pas gagner je me permet de dire ont, ont n’a pas gagner encore completement ce droit là c’est c’est pas tout à faite gagner en tout cas. JA : les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcées dans les années 70 qu'aujourd'hui en quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduit- JMD : Ah je suis pas nécessairement d'accord avec ça mais vas-y continue JA : en quoi le fait d'être une femme cette tradition-il par un traitement et des attentes différentes de ceux des étudiants masculins dans les salles de classe où l'on d'événements sociaux? JMD : écoute c'est d'amis était tellement tellement fumé mais le il était c'était je pense que c'est c'est c'est vrai qu institutionnellement ou traditionnellement puis c'est encore vrai dans les années 70 mais c'est de ça ça marche et ça changeait au cours des de de de la fin des années 60 début 70 je pense qu'il y avait encore là faut faut vérifier mais je pense qu'il y a encore des des barrières les mêmes barrières qu'on peut qu'on peut encore voir un peu aujourd'hui même si ça s'est terminé visé mais les barèmes barrières pour les facultés de sciences à ce moment-là je pense je pense c'est une les le médical était commencé à bouger je pense que le droit commençait à bouger mais c'était moins fait qu'il y avait il y avait encore des barrières pour les les les possibilités pour les femmes dans les tu sais mais c'est en train de tomber vraiment vraiment très très rapidement c'est en train de de de en tout cas c'était ma perception c'est dans mon souvenir ce que ce j'ai réagi à ton introduction parce que les la différence entre les hommes et les femmes était plus marquée que je fais I don’t know I’m looking around, les le la sexualisation de la mode le tu sais des des sur ce que ce qu'on dit sur section la mode les les les dans les rues les la violence envers des envers les femmes là tu sais il y a il y a plein de choses qui que que je je remettrais en question ton introduction puis j'aimerais voir des statistiques là-dessus JA : C’est pas moi qui la faite là JMD : Ah Ben écoute ça je oui oui mais je je je je suis euh je suis c'est le la mode la mode unisexe c'était c'était c'était ça ça je sais pas quand l'unisexe c'était assez c'était assez am mode des années 60 ça partie ça disparu mais mais c'est une différence là c'est je suis pas je pense aujourd'hui je je vois encore beaucoup de beaucoup de sexisme dans les attitudes dans la mode dans le encore en politique encore en tu sais il y a des y a des c'est pas c'est pas ce que je ce que je veux juste dire c'est que c'est pas gagné puis c'est c'était je pense ça ce que ton introduction ça fonctionne très bien si tu parles des années 50 si tu parles même des années 60 mais à partir de la mi à partir des des de quand la vague féministe commence qu'on a on parle spécifiquement d'un campus universitaire dans les 70 évidemment faut écoute faut évidemment parler aux femmes pour avoir le faut avoir la la réponse des des étudiants de cette époque-là voici elle comment ce qui elle elle percevait à anyway voilà JA : La dernière question pour cette section la c'est; dans les années 70 il y avait-il des programmes des départements des clubs de l'université où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptés? JMD : Moi j'ai pas fait partie beaucoup de clubs puis de mais je vois pas sûrement tu sais-je sûrement qu'il y avait des des on peut sortir du sans doute des exemples où il y avait des mais de de ségrégation ça je pense ça c'était fini ca y avait pas de the boys club strictly boys club, il y a même pas de ça me semble moi j'ai ça j'ai pas de souvenir tu sais les c'était Fini le temps des tavernes pour hommes seulement des des des des des hôtels les dames bienvenues je vois c'est c'est je sais pas si tu ça mais il y avait pendant au Québec en tout cas je pense en Ontario aussi il y avait des des sections dans les bars où c'était les femmes y avaient pas le droit il y avait pas le droit de rentrer JA : Vraiment JMD : oui on regarde regarde surprise j'aime ça faut prendre la photo de tes yeux hein ben oui bein oui il y avait oui c'était pour les hommes les ce qu'on appelait les tavernes à l'époque c'était strictement mort mais il y avait des salles où on on s'était écrit bienvenue aux dames d'affiches à Montréal ils ont gardé ça fait un peu rétro bienvenue aux dames ça a été changé ça est une loi qui a été changée je le sais pas quel quelles années mais je je m'en souviens quand ça quand ça a changé JA : Ouin je ne savais pas sa, j’ai appris beaucoup de choses aujourd’hui haha JMD : Bon ben c’est bon. JA : Je me sens plus connaissante là JMD : Okay c’est bien JA : Okay donc la on a un autre question qui se comme pose plus sur l'idéologie puis les différences générationnelles les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient qu'ils devait se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? JMD : Beaucoup ne disent faut dire que tu sais encore là je suis-je suis dans la faculté des arts je suis avec le théâtre nous autres on se questionne beaucoup pendant toute cette période c'est quoi le rôle du théâtre c'est quoi le rôle des arts dans la société on est très perméables on on entend je veux dire c'est ça fait ça fait beaucoup beaucoup beaucoup partie de notre de des questions qu'on se pose on est très assez politisés moi je vais le devenir encore plus après mais dans dès tu sais il y a il y a toutes sortes il y a la contre-culture nord-américaine qui va qui va s'animer tu sais fait de tout ce qui est pop, la culture populaire la musique rock, sex drugs and rock and roll tu sais tout ce que ça implique comme changement de mœurs par rapport à une société nos parents qui sont nés dans les années 20 qui ont grandi dans les années 40 puis pendant la 2e guerre mondiale tout de suite après eux autres il y avait beaucoup de tabous par rapport à plein de choses il y avait beaucoup de choses on parlait pas de ça on parlait on se parlait certainement pas de sex, on parlait pas de tu sais drugs did not exist, lots of alcohol though, mais drugs did not exist, puis qon est très leur c'est moi qui va caricaturer leur génération mais on était très succès social, money matérialiste c'est très axé sur ces valeurs là puis avec plein de tabous la contre-culture des années 60 it’s you know with those with those swinging hips, Elvis Presley and his swinging hips and, la révolution sexuelle, la pilule qui arrive au début des années 60 la contraception les la libéralisation de la sexualité le rock and roll all that and drugs fait que oui on est-il y a comme une période côté rébellion contre la société un peu qu'on qu'on qu'on voit comme un peu prude un peu tu sais sage de nos parents et aussitôt qu'on gratte un petit peu qu'on fait un peu d'histoire on apprend que Oh my god they were just as naughty mais autrement mais il y a tout ça les années 60 c'est la it’s the baby boom c’est it’s the baby boom, c’est toute la generation, were taking were taking it over, were were on est et on est plus on est d'avant on est plus de monde plus de jeunes on a on a on a plus d'argent on a plus d'éducation on tu sais tout ça arrive et que nous autres les parents là vous connaissez rien puis on fait qu'il y a toute cette rébellion-là mas assez vite ça va devenir très politique fait qu'il voir la contre la guerre du Vietnam contre les institutions were all against the man, the man sa l'expression qui veut dire the Man c'est c'est le pouvoir c'est le capitalisme c'est le c'est de boss, the man c'est le système, the system’s wrong tu sais on est toutes on devient très politique pour ça ça ça va devenir de plus en plus violent il y a de Black civil rights movement ce qui va devenir de plusieurs qui s'en va vers les Black Panthers il y a le y a le y a les les révolutions sur les campus universitaires de 68, 68 à Paris 68 à Montréal qui va être de et et les les the Big protest King Sate, ils ont tiré sur les étudiants qui manifestent contre la la guerre du Vietnam c'est tout ça se passe tout en en 68 69 it gets you really rough, fait que tu sais oui on est on est on est là-dedans et ça ça va devenir ça ça va on va identifier ça ça ça va devenir ce que ce que tes profs tes historiens appellent la contre-culture on est contre la culture des des précédents puis on on pis c'est très politique au Canada français the big thing of course c’est le mouvement indépendantiste au Québec qui va nationaliste au Québec puis qui va se solder avec la montée du FLQ les bombes les bombes qui sautent à Montréal les bombes qui sautent sites Ottawa et les les qui va cumuler avec la crise d'octobre, octobre 66 moi j'ai 13 ans moi je me souviens moi je me souviens de l'armée dans les rues là Ottawa et avec les avec des fucking machines guns man c’était comme what the fuck, c'était les les chars d'assaut qui rentrait à Montréal mais le fait qu'il y a il y a toute ça se fait qu'il y a toute cette énergie-là politique là tu sais c'est qu'en même temps il y a le contre-culture des États-Unis contre-culture de Paris de France la France y a le mouvement nationaliste québécois qui à ce moment-là est très de gauche très progressiste dire c'est tout du monde qui tu sais qui tu sais veulent veulent veulent la révolution tu sais il y a plein de monde là-dedans ils parlent de révolution, the Black Panthers, the black revolution, it’s like you know like they got guns, Québec il y a il y a des y a des y a des bombes là ça tu sais c'est très très ça fait partie de cette de ce mouvement-là fait que moi quand j'arrive j'ai juste 16/17 ans mais j'arrive dans cette dans cette culture avec toute ma génération fait que nous autres on on parle beaucoup de ça oui fait que short answer oui oui on est très on est très au fait on parle de ça ça fait partie de notre réflexion ça fait partie de ce que on est en train de manifester quand il y a des manifestations on est en train d'écrire des poèmes on est en train de monter des spectacles féministes donc en train de tu sais ça fait beaucoup beaucoup partie de de de ma culture de mes amis. JA : intéressant, donc dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées, on en a parler un peu mais. JMD : oui oui oui oui Ben ils était très dépassé au niveau de de le qu'on considère on les considérait comme comme prune puis tu sais il était très, ah je suis en train de regarder Doris Day, Rock Hudson, those those old comedies, romantic comedies, à propos de si tu veux avoir des images de c'est quoi la la le fait Google va voir là pillow talk de si ça me revient il a pas des flash fait que Doris Day, the blue eyed blonde American, toutes les jokes un peu un peu sexuels c'est all inuendo puis oh my god c’est très profond que nous autres évidemment on rejette ça ce qui est encore plus drôle c'est que le le star quand je dis Rock Hudson tu sais c'est qui Rock Hudson? Non? JA : Non ok c'est he was a big star, and he was like a sex symbol il vous fait c'est parce que dans ce temps-là tu sais bien évidemment il y avait il y avait Marilyn Marilyn Monroe, Doris Day wasn’t a sex symbol she was like the pretty, the next next next door, the nice nice wife the nice girl, Marilyn Munroe was the sex pot, and Rock Hudson was like le mâle super beau gars except of course we found out twenty/thirty years ago he’s gay, il était il était c'était archi connu dans le milieu c'était toute cachée il vivait tu sais it was all in the closet, caché parce qu'il aurait perdu il y avait c'était complètement inacceptable je fais juste réagir parce que mentionné genre dans ton dans ta liste c'est pas genre c'est plus la sexualité l'homosexualité est encore très très très très tabou dans les années 60 c'est plus là mais c'est c'est clairement en train de se dégeler dans les années 70 encore là un peu en parallèle avec le Women's lib t'avais the le Gay libération qui étaient avec qui a eu là tu sais StoneWall ça OK tu vas Google à un moment donné Stonewall tu vois ça c'est une grosse grosse manifestation qui a été réprimée très très violemment à New York, the cops trying to arrest gay, homosexuals in the bath houses in the bars, début des années 60 it’s a landmark moment parce que là les les gays se sont organisées puis ils ont-ils ont manifesté il y a eu des il y a des heurts en tout cas c'est the gay world pre Stonewall and post Stonewall fait que c'était vraiment fait que dans les années 70 on est définitivement post Stonewall c'est en train de bouger c'est en train encore là nous autres on considère que nos parents sont comme complètement dépasser son son pas dans les les gens commencent you know it’s les les c'est c'est c'est la c'est la révolution entre guillemets la révolution sexuelle il y a les gens ont je sais pas si on me remet encore beaucoup en question moi c'est moi qui parle le le l'idée du couple c'est l'idée du couple de la famille ça c'est comme moi éventuellement on va se rendre là mais on on on on on leur pendant qu'on est jeune everything goes c'est le fun mais on je pense pas qu'on est tellement en question la la il y a un petit peu mais pas pas autant que ce qui va être remis en question à partir de la fin des années 80 puis 90 ça c'est ça c'est moins en question JA : Okay, dans les années 70 quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait on comme la plus déréglée et le plus à corriger? JMD : Ah okay, Ben évidemment quand on est en on est en c'est la crise la crise du du du Québec entre guillemets de l'indépendance du Québec de la la crise ce qui va devenir la crise constitutionnelle ce qui va tu sais pendant toutes les années 70 c'est écoute ça 70 on commence avec avec le kidnapping de d'un diplomate le Brittanique d'un ministre québécois fait que la violence du mouvement nationaliste québécois qui va tranquillement disparaître au profit de la de la la montée du PQ du du parti québécois de de l'évêque de ce qui va prendre le pouvoir en 76 et on finit la décennie avec le référendum en 80 fait toute cette décennie là le un des des grosses grosses questions c'est l'avenir du pays c'est c'est c'est l'existence même du de du Canada sous quelle forme est-ce qu'il va prendre puis on va vous dire ça va déboucher avec le le le référendum qui va être perdu par le par le par le oui mais qui va être suivi mais là on arrive dans les années 80 il faut être suivi par la la le rapatriement de la Constitution et qui va marquer le nouveau Canada le Canada dans lequel nous autres on vit constitutionnellement dans lequel on vit aujourd'hui fait que toutes toutes les années 70 c'est beaucoup beaucoup ça c'est c'est clair que c'est c'est une des meilleures il y a il y a les les les causes qu'on a mentionné c'est les les l'égalité des femmes l’affaire de l'avortement qui va être qui va se décider dans ces années-là qui va se le droit de ces la la loi Trudeau en 71 je retiens la la loi loti de l'état a pas d'affaire dans le dans les chambres à coucher des des gens ce qui va décriminaliser le les couples homosexuels ça va être un gros changement aussi dans le fait que ça ça avait été changé on le par rapport à ce qui est ce qui nous préoccupe aujourd'hui il y a quelques événements qui nous rappellent la l'injustice par rapport aux autochtones je faudrait que passé un événement en particulier qui s'appelait à restigo c'est sur la frontière avec la le Nouveau-Brunswick mais les tout que tout ce qu'on connaît aujourd'hui tout ce qu'on dit tout ça c'est encore c'est encore inconnu c'est encore pas tabou c'est juste c'est invisible c'est invisible dans notre dans notre conscience tu sais de d'étudiants il y a quelques il y a il y a il y a Marlon Brando qui quand y’a gagné pour the godfather, son Oscar avait refusé de d'y aller et avait envoyé une femme autochtone pour le recevoir pour dénoncer la façon qu'on qu'on traite les autochtones si tu veux checker ça a little anecdote it’s like je me souviens d'avoir vu ça d'avoir fait Oh waouh non je me souviens de ça écoute je suis en train de dire ça je suis en train de me souvenir j'ai il y avait ça cette femme-là qui était arrivée d'avoir entendu parler pour la première fois de wounded knee le massacre de wounded knee si tu connais pas ça c'est un autre un autre fait historique à tu sais que où il y a l'armée l'armée l'armée américaine a massacré des des des des Lakota Dakota dans le dans l'ouest américain fin du c'est un événement horrifique comme massacré à la anyway woman and children horrific d'avoir entendu parler de wounded knee j'ai y avait quand même quelques fait que tu sais, it was the Americans, they were the bad guys, they were the bad guys with the indians, us do we have do we have any who are they un peu ça ça ça ça me ça m'attriste aujourd'hui parce que parce que j'ai beaucoup d'amis autochtones ça fait que je sais que that wasn’t on our radar, gender was part of our agenda c'est dans oui on parle trans mais là ils l'ont évidemment ça c'était pas ça c'était pour c'était pas du tout c'était pas du tout dans notre sur notre radar mais la la cause homosexuelle qui à ce moment-là inclut inclut les les les la cause lesbienne c'est ça je suis utilise les mots qu'on utilisait à l'époque homosexuel lesbiennes ça c'était oui ça c'était dans sur notre radar si on avait des amis avec qui on et on va évidemment la c'est mais c'est très c'est précis là toute toute tout ça dans les années 70 on on est politiquement pro libération si tu veux puis pro anti discriminatoire mais ce qui va vraiment changer la donne pour cette communauté là ça va être le la ce qui s'en vient l'épidémie de sida puis toutes les morts vous dire moi tous les morts moi j'ai j'ai plusieurs j'ai quelques amis qui qui ont été parmi la la première vague des morts au début des années 80, that’s a little later on. JA : la prochaine question similaire là ça dit juste c'est quelques qui étaient les injustices principales dans les années 70 mais comme je crois qu'on vient me toucher à ça là JMD : Ouais je pense que oui haha JA : Ouin c’est sa, JMD : l'écologie est pas très est là on on y a des on est on est conscient évidemment on parle pas de réchauffement de la planète on parle pas de tu sais mais on est conscient de la pollution la pollution ça ça ça fait partie de c'est sur notre c'est sur notre agenda de revendications de jeunes de jeunes militants il y a hey on arrête de polluer la la terre on n'est pas au courant de on on on on sait pas encore jusqu'à quel point ça ça ça ça que ça soit aussi si on a c'est son é pas au courant que que au fond ça aurait dû être beaucoup plus urgent quand dès ces années-là on aurait pu on aurait pu faire quelque chose de plus mais mais ça ça fait partie des c'est sur l'agenda. JA : Okay, la dernière question pour comme cette section là c'est avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démo démocratique équitable et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? JMD : Non tout je aujourd'hui aujourd'hui je sais le nuancerait parce que je nuancerais parce que je vois on voit comment les démocraties sont attaquées de l'Intérieur par des ben certaines certains extrémistes qui qui qui démantèlent qu'on voit on voit ce qui s'est passé en Pologne on voit ce qui s'est passé en Hongrie on voit ce qui s'est passé aux États-Unis on voit ce qui se passe aux États-Unis on tu sais qu'on attaque la démocratie puis que puis que tu sais aujourd'hui aujourd'hui je serais-je je je ferais bien le le la fameuse la citation je sais pas si la connais la citation de de Winston Churchill; liberal democracy is the worst system that exists except all the others c'est c'est c'est c'est pas parfait mais tous les autres sont pires tous les autres tu sais va enlever la voix aux gens fait que mais à l'époque quand je suis jeune je dois l'avouer j'étais beaucoup plus critique de la du système du système de vote du système de démocratique parce que ça laissait le trop de pouvoir à ceux qui étaient pas d'accord avec moi tu sait on on voulait que les choses changent plus et plus rapidement et donc une des raisons pourquoi ça changeait pas aussi rapidement mais parce que le système parlementaire ralenti pour nous autres ça ralentissait ça ralentissait le le cours de l'histoire fait que oui il y avait il y avait un sentiment il y avait il y avait une impatience c'est pour ça que les gars le sais le l'exemple j'étais j'étais j'étais loin d'être d'accord avec les avec les jeunes du FLQ pendant toutes ces années-là c'était ça l'argument de des indépendantistes des jeunes tu sais c'était du monde de 22,23,24 ans eux autres disaient écoute le Québec faut que ça soit indépendant une des raisons pourquoi c'est pas indépendant c'est parce que le le le la démocratie la façon c'est organiser le peuple a pas la possibilité de prendre le pouvoir puis de changer les choses fait que nous autres on va provoquer ce changement là puis fuck la démocratie on pose des bombes puis c'est elles viennent au courant je suis pas d'accord avec ça mais c'était certainement ça faisait partie du discours de beaucoup de monde c'était que c'était injuste et que ça ça ça ralentissait le puis ça ça a donné la trop trop de pouvoir aux riches trop de pouvoir à ceux qui pas trop de pouvoir aux riches puis pas assez à ce que nous autres on appelait qu'on peut toujours appeler le peuple. JA : Okay la j’ai et une autre question puis après ça des questions puis c'est tout les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive la législation légalisation schiste de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idée de théologie de l'amour libre on modifie les relations hommes femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970 est-ce que vous êtes d'accord avec cette affirmation? JMD : absolument d'accord avec cette affirmation là oui oui par rapport à le le toutes les les les les les barrières entre les tu sais en même temps je j'ajouterais j'ajouterais dans la liste les l'éducation mixte c'est à dire tu sais faut pas oublier que c'est au cours des années 60 on va dire moi j'ai été à une école de gars jusque ma 12e année, secondaire 5 ce que non non c'est ça j'ai été j'ai été j'ai été dans un collège classique j'ai été dans une des écoles primaires c'était toutes c'était gars fille c'était séparé les écoles secondaires étaient séparées puis c'est juste là avec les les écoles publiques quelque part dans les années 60 que ça commence à on se retrouve hey y’a des filles dans notre classe Oh mon Dieu qui y’ont notes que nous autres wait a minute, oui c'est c'était tout nouveau ça et et pour les les les filles aussi évidemment le et c'est mais c'est la même chose pour le poste secondaire je pas je veux pas mêler mais le le l'intégration des femmes pis les les tu sais tout ça toute toute toute cette éducation mixte là tout ce mouvement là va à l'encontre d'une d'une culture quasiment de civilisation qui était basée beaucoup sur la séparation des sexes sur la différence entre les sexes tu sais on on fait que oui tout ça arrive tout en même temps puis évidemment le le la pilule avortement le la libération de que tout d'un coup les femmes pouvaient choisir de de procréer ou non d'avoir le d'avoir à pouvoir gérer leur corps de pas être de pas être dépendante ou d'avoir peur de tu sait surtout dans une la libération des de de de s'éloigner de l'église catholique aussi en tout cas pour les Canadiens français ça je pense à aider beaucoup aussi ça libère tout ça fait que c'est ce qui fait que Ah les relations sont beaucoup plus égalitaires peut-être pas toujours mais plus ouverte plus ouais et ça c'est ça a certainement changé les les rapports entre les hommes et les femmes oui beaucoup. JA : puis à quoi ressemblait et les fréquentations sur comme le campus JMD : écoute-moi encore là je veux dire moi je travaille je travaille toujours j'étais toujours en équipe avec avec des si j'étais toujours moi je d'ailleurs depuis toujours à cause du métier que je fais je parle le je me je me retrouve toujours en en situation de de de et puis ça a commencé ça a commencé là ça ça commençait à l'école secondaire un peu moins l'école secondaire on t'en concept toute nouveau là les filles les gars hein mais rendu à et juste 16 ans des petits culs j’était un bébé et mais le mais le libido prend de plus en plus de place puis qui fait que les fréquentations à quoi ça ressemble ça c'est c'était plus des plus des les amis puis le t'as un coup dans le party puis là du coup ouais la main glisse puis oui OKOK hi puis there you go puis j'étais j'étais pas parce que j'avais encore là 16,17,18 je vais être beaucoup plus actif je suis actif sexuellement mais beaucoup plus actif sexuellement par la suite en quand je vais être rendu à Québec à ça va être tout d'un coup ça ça va devenir d'autres choses à me de 19 20 dans la vingtaine tout ça mais j'ai eu quand même quelques expériences quand j'étais JA : Ok puis la dernière question c'est comment que votre génération considère serait-elle la famille et le mariage? Oh my god Ben moi moi j'ai j'ai j'ai été évidemment c'est très différent de d'autres cultures en ce moment d'ailleurs dans le monde d'autres civilisations d'autres cultures c'est très différent de de ce que c'était pour nos parents jusque-là jusque dans les années 60 70 dans le sens que c'est faut que tu sois écoute fallait que tu sois vierge quand tu te mariais nous dit c'était ça le c'était ça le c'était ça la loi même la loi religieuse mais c'était quasiment ça la loi et c'était la norme et c'était même s'il y avait énormément d'hypocrisie à propos de ça qu'on gratte les commence à poser les vraies questions on regarde les affaires Oh wait a minute Oh Oh holy shit Free Love is invented back in the 1910s mais le mais mais c'est c'était c'est quoi la question puis le mariage fait que oui ça c'était comme l'institution l'institution qui était obligatoire à partir des fin des années 60 certainement 70 ce n'est plus obligatoire on va voir à partir de là le montant de le le nombre de conjoints de faits des gens qui vivent ensemble va augmenter par rapport au monde des gens qui se marient tout le monde décide d'aller moi je me suis jamais marié de ma vie fait que j'ai mais j'ai j'ai eu quelques relations qui ont duré plusieurs années et et éventuellement une fille et qui mais ça plus tard fait qu'il y avait c'est le début de la le le choix de oui ou non se marier devient un vrai choix pas une obligation et le choix de oui ou non avoir des enfants tôt tout de suite devient un choix de plus en plus fait que définitivement c'est pas que les gens sont contre le mariage nécessairement ou contre avoir des enfants mais ça devient plus un choix et le choix de pas en avoir ou de retarder d'en avoir devient normal ça ça fait partie de notre culture de ma génération les gens il y a des gens je connais plusieurs femmes qui ont qui ont maintenant qui ont mon âge qui ont 65/70 qui ont choisi de pas avoir d'enfants j'en connais qui ont choisi d'avoir des enfants plus vieux j'en connais qui ont eu des enfants très jeunes c'est toute ce toute cette toute cette cet éventail de choix là comment ça c'est avec notre génération je pense que ça ça devient vraiment normal d'avoir ces choix là. JA : Okay c’était la dernière question je vous remercie beaucoup d'avoir fait partie de l'étude puis là je peux arrêter l'enregistrement là pour JMD : Ça va comme tu veux JA : Je ne sais pas comment faire ça arrêter là euh oui arrêter l’enregistrement Transcription Translation Janelle Aubin: It's loading Jean-Marc Dalpé: Yeah record transcription JA: ok perfect so today is October 24, 2023 it's 11:23 a.m. my name is Janelle Aubin and I'm going to interview Jean-Marc Dalpé through teams for the purpose of research on life on the campus of the University of Ottawa during the 1970s. So the main issue is that cultural historians have argued that Hollywood television, popular music and an automobile-oriented consumer culture created a popular North American culture more integrated. Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how Anglophones and Francophones related to each other. JMD: Okay, yes yes yes I think it's clear that television, American pop culture became from the Second World War especially the 50s then after 60s. When I was born in 57 all this had become more and more present in people's lives and then it has a kind of hegemony of culture you know there it takes up more and more space throughout all these years television is a big big big big deal that happened because there wasn't that happens when I remember the old black and white TV in the middle of the living room it's brand new all that and we had in Ottawa in particular we had but there CTV CBC then Radio-Canada I think that's all there was as a channels that we could have with our antennas moved like that there it's okay it's good then we look at all this culture there certainly arrived in masses. That said still in the 70s there is still a big one there is there is there there is still more of a difference perhaps between popular American English Canadian and French Canadian French speaking culture yeah there is in terms of the university as such we were much more I think in addition today fact that I can't talk about it but we were clearly more independent of each other. me in the theater department faculty of arts literature all that we had we had very very little contact with the English-speaking students in general same as the rest of us so I remember I was one of the first classes to do a project with the Anglos we had we had we had done a cabaret a cabaret then we had with the French speakers that the English speakers who worked together and that it was one of the first projects where there was a collaboration where we did something together and that there it was it wasn't yes yes there was there was there was still some there was there had contacts but there were much fewer contacts I think today that's it. JA: Well today like me I'm in the bilingual program so they did I don't know if there was at your time but the bilingual program so I take classes with English speakers so I can meet English speakers then French speakers are more integrated, I think, that’s what you said there. JMD: yes but I don't know the I think it goes from one faculty to another and departments JA: Yes JMD: and I think that even today the theater class I don't think there are many theater classes that are in a bilingual format, you know, that wouldn't make sense. JA: Yes, yes, perfect, so the next question is were there fewer electronic devices in Canadian society in the 1970s how was your free time structured or what were the students at the University of Ottawa doing to having fun in the 1970s JMD: Oh we spoke to each other there was no no certainly there was zero zero device said all that that was that it's clear there was there was at the media level what obviously existed it is good apart from TV the radio there was we went I think in any case we went to the cinema a lot in any case it's a memory that I had there were the there were the parties then the then then the dances all kinds of social activities like that but the other the other me it's because especially in Ottawa for me it's especially those years I often went to the Town cinema which is who who was at the time on Beechwood you don't come from Ottawa so maybe that doesn't mean anything to you but on Beechwood it's just in Vanier or just the other side close to Vanier that was where the time was it was a repertory cinema we moved it became the bytown which is on curtain now but which is not quite the same as the rest of us at the time this cinema was incredible when I think about it I say Oh my god it was incredible it was criteria netflix all wrapped into one so you really had to go there, to go see there was an extraordinary program of all world cinema you could go there go see 2 films finished a Bergman film then a film it was we found the programming from that time was really quite quite quite incredible I became a bit of a movie buff over the years because I had the chance to see things that we never saw, certainly not on TV you know fact that American films but also as I say films French films Italian films Swedish everywhere it's Japanese the Korosawa know all these you know some of the great great films which today it is in fact if you don't have access to the good platforms it has become in fact it's it's it's it's sometimes it's become even more difficult to have access at this cinema there in any case the rest of us had that it was we go out me in any case I have a lot of memories of having spent a lot of time at the time besides I saw I thought neither for the first time it was playing in Ottawa it's the Rocky horror picture show says something the the phenomenon rocky horror I was there the first time but there is it's there was there wasn't just big complicated films there Swedes then Italians in this cinema there were also more popular things more fun but always a little off beat there you know a little bit its margin there it was it wasn't bad there in any case there is had that otherwise the pleasure listen really I I remember being to be in the bars in the dances to go dancing to go you know of all this or of must also be said for me my it is a bit special because it was the years when I was studying I thought very very I didn't get good grades but I took it very seriously because I wanted to be an actor then I wanted to work in the theater means that I played in all the shows, it's a year I played in 10 shows, 10 shows during the year in fact that I was when I wasn't in class then not at the cinema I was in rehearsal with the gang to put on plays to put on shows the pit shows played fact that for me it's my social life my life, that his social life was a lot with with the work comrades for the theater all that. JA: Okay. JA: The next question, it's like similar here, it says what were the most popular hangouts on and off campus? Since I don't know if the buildings were all the same for the rest of us, we have a new one called Learning Crossroads. It's like the most popular place on campus, so I don't know what it was like. Specific buildings where students went to study or just hang out during classes. JMD: Hanging out means in my memory there was around the library a large large building where there is the library I'm starting again that's what you mean by learning it's a kind of big building, the library, where I think there is JA: There is the Morris library and then there after that there is like a new building which has like made a passage then there it's a whole new building it's called learning crossroads that's like it's new there It's been like I think it was 2019 since it was built. JMD: So obviously it exists of the Morris library and that had just been built when I was there in 74 it came it was like the the new building was there there was just the little one the old building of the faculty of arts which was there a couple of others there was the well you know in the library building and the center he called you the university center the rest of us there was a room theater which was there there was an Agora where people often met there was a bar upstairs in one of the in one of the in not far away we went there not too often but from time to time then yeah that's it for me for me it's the old edition on laur laurier you know there's tabaret the big one there that existed then just opposite there on the link the the old building that's the one the theater department. JA: Ah yes, okay yeah I know which one you are talking about there. JMD: And theater and visual arts too which was there at the time obviously the JA: I don’t know JMD: Sorry? JA: I don't remember the name of the building I'm trying to think JMD: I don't know either, I think it's changing the name. And the fact that obviously at the university in the 70s was so much smaller than what you know it was much more Franco during all those years I I they would have to come out with the exact figures the proportion but in my memory it was like 40,60,40 percent Franco you know I have a little date against the University of Ottawa in that sense because it's you know the one who has just added theirs the Laurentian University of Ottawa was there was the University of Sudbury which was Franco which had a University of Ottawa which was Franco unilingual French-speaking in until the beginnings until 70 I think then same thing a little in Sudbury then they made us all kinds of big promises and we were told that it was going to be perfect then it was going to give us much more access to better education not not not bilingual institution yes all your rights will be protected yes yes you will be assured of and we know what happened there, certainly la Laurentien, in any case then I think you mean there are there are a lot of debates about services in French at the University of Ottawa which are much less this but we others it was the beginning fact that we had we we we we had less to fight at this level for these services there fact that well what I wanted to say above all it's just that it's so much smaller you know we just a few I don't know a few thousand tens of thousands I don't know I I don't want there you're at 60 60 that's how many you are at University of Ottawa? JA: I think, I think I would say 60,000? JMD: that's it, that's what I had, that's what I had, it was from the 90s that it really started to increase, the adversary made the choice to democratize, that's a good choice to give access to higher education to a greater number of people, that's all great, but for the rest of us it was like a whole other situation because the rest of us were it was much smaller then as I say we didn't know much English because it's even smaller you know in the sense that we French speakers were like fact that there were there were there were a few places on the campus where we was going there was there was what is the name of others the Wasteland is there anyone who talked about the Wasteland JA: no JMD: ok that ok that that was an institution off beat a caf a café it was it no longer exists there the building was razed close to King Edward laurel laurel in in this block there between the church this that the church then the King Edward there was an old building it was called the Wasteland it was the first place where you could go to drink espresso listen in the 70s but you know we didn't know that it was like me then we had the right to smoke obviously the great era of the places completely smoked like that then but it was like it's like bohemian it was the the the coolest of the cool poets moutier all that there that was happening where Wasteland between your classes such or Wasteland you could eat a small piece of sandwiches something like that muffins there was muffin I say that but it's mainly coffee plus cigarettes your age me I me I I was younger than you in fact because I was told that you were 19, that's why I'm taking the liberty, I went in 73, I was 16 JA: Oh my god! JMD: I had skipped years, I know I know not a good idea but that was it at the time you could skip years if it was a little bad or if you had good grades which was my case for a little while I had skipped years then I returned to a first year in I was 16 in 73 I was 16 years old so you understand going to a class like the Wasteland is like tripping 100 miles an hour that was the Wasteland that was a plague poetry launches readings all kinds of business all kinds of activities there you know you know marginal cool I would add politics it's is there was it's a time I don't know if it's going to be another of your questions but it's a time where the the the politics takes up a lot of space from the 70s whether it's the gay feminist question French-speaking anti-Vietnam you know for peace it's all these all the left movements of that time the leftist movements of that time it takes a lot more fact than the Wasteland it's a bit like the clubhouse for everyone there, anyway I can't believe I said that, then it's it's well made apart from that there was there were the there were the taverns and bars of the there was the there exists again the Château Lafayette la the Laf la we were going to Laf on in in in in the in the market do you know that LaFayette? JA: I’ve already seen it yeah JMD: ok that was a place it's there it's it's it's life joke you know the tables you ordered you filled the draft table you will have passed the beer making table then there was the laf there was the there was the there was the what was it, he's the one who has the Novotel now, but the Albion was called the Albion, it was an old hotel in Ottawa called the Albion, which had a big tavern there, that too. was a place it was right next to the fact that there was alcohol and the and the student meetings. JA: It’s better than today we just have Tim Hortons and yeah JMD: Oh my god no! Oh no, poor people, Tim Hortons? No! JA: That's just what's on campus, I find that, at least I haven't discovered anything but there's no cafés like that, it's a shame JMD: Okay. Yes JA: the next question I think is already the answer but it is; Did you attend any musical performances during your college years? JMD: yes yes I was I haven't done a lot you know I've never been I'm not I went to see shows you know music shows bacs you know but but no I don't have a great memory in those years of having often been in concerts certainly not big concerts I saw some but there was Ottawa there was Ottawa there was what we others we called the Ottawa x who is there who is Lansdowne Park that was the big stadium was often there at that time there were there were there were concerts that came to town it was often there that I had a couple of times then but I was not often in my memory there I was doing other things JA: Yes, okay, perfect. Next question, okay, Ottawa was a bilingual institution, did French speakers and English speakers register for the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? JMD: No. I mean my quick answer is no it wasn't there were certain activities well it's frosh week you know the type of stuff maybe in others I have to say that the faculty of arts then the department of theater in particular department of visual arts I think who spoke more because it is because of the nature of the courses all that but the rest of us me I was really in a place in the university we were really very very very focused on French facts and then it was happening quite a bit between the rest of us just me and perhaps in other faculties of medicine or or lawyer the legal the rights the right the right there are perhaps more more exchanges all that but me in any case me in in in my memory it was quite separate. JA: ok, did anglophones and francophones hang out in the 1970s JMD: As I just said not a lot from time to time you have to say you just have to understand that my mother is an English speaker my mother she comes from Nova Scotia so I am perfectly in quotes you know a true bilingual of the of side of Ontario you know all that means that I had English-speaking friends outside but during the university years that period my English-speaking friends are common elsewhere in the world you know it was then that's the fact that it's a period where I really it's really it's been it's been more of the French-speaking years. JA: Ok, next question is; we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. How do you describe the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? JMD: Well listen there was it was enough it was there is I remember concert dance activities since things like that were happening on campus but I haven't been I wasn't very like when I said to myself I wasn't very party with the other faculties of other affairs we say to ourselves the theater is like it's like returning to it's like returning to the monastery but the rest of us are were partying with the rest of us the you know of the first parts of the last parts of the show then he said we were changing shows then you know then there was there was a lot of a lot of it was it was me I have a I have a great memory of having spent a lot of time dancing singing supporting all this all this is it the parts what I do the more I'm too old but what it's is when I was when I was younger that's what it was on campus for the rest of us it was really theater parties of that world then outside of that some activities it's then yeah that's it there that there is a title it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't like in the in the American films it wasn't as crazy as that those frat parties that you see in it's films I don' t remember those. JA: like do you see a difference between like your generation then and ours today because I find that like the party’s that our generation has are really like out of control like it's true you have seen but the panda Game last year there are people who have this last year or the year before there are people who have turned cars upside down then like I don't know if that was something that I don't think your generation would have done that at all so like I find there's a difference. JMD: no there is there wasn't this these excesses that we see that we see more often today or in you know in others others I don't have a memory of this of these of this nature there must be said yes we got Crazy you know there was yes yes yes yeah we got stoned, we got crazy but there was not it was not car flipping. That said again there uh uhm uh I was not surprised I was not surprised to learn who had uh people who uh would tell about cases of harassment or I it was more this dark side there I think distant certainly but was still more taboo than today so much better than that that we accept it more today but compared to what you say about parties that turn yeah yeah, but you know of the drinking competitions that was all there was there was no fashion for shooters yet there that came later but it was the same for the rest of us it's not shooters it was bottles of vodka but . JA: Yeah so there is still a difference between the time JMD: I think I I think I think we can say that yes definitely JA: Yeah, perfect, so what did the student body think of the Vietnam War? JMD: Ah Well I think that the the movement me you see I am in it is 73 and 74 we have to come towards the end Nixon is in power Nixon is in the process of negotiating the exit of the of the American army Saigon for I checked my dates there are what I am with but I don't know exactly when it was taken over by the people of the North but it is in fact 75 that for me I arrive all my youth from when I start watching television that's that that's that's that's it's in relation to the question about television culture all that we don't have talked about specifically about the news but for me it's part of my politicization of all that you know me I'm me me I I I I I I'm just I'm just 6 years old when Kennedy was assassinated in '63 but we had a TV then I have a vague memory of having seen these images which are now in the archives are large archives and the the the when when when the the guy from the mafia will will carry aswell quantum I I have I' in quotes it was the the news that evening you know it was happening and through all these years there are the you know all the rise of of of obviously of the the the the civil rights struggle African-Americans as we called blacks who we called negros it was their their their association the the great associations which made that Martin Luther King I saw that on TV me the march in Selma I saw that on TV the demonstrations which were repressed by white police officers with dogs against the big markets in the south of the United States I saw you know the the the it's the the the students being made spit on them because they go to black schools you know that it's part of my of my youth I saw all this it was happening south and south of the border but it was certainly always in the news with us and through that obviously there is the Vietnam War then the images all the images of the Vietnam War which will begin so that the fall of bien Dien bet Phu the fall of the of the French that I remember not too much but I think that's one of them that's one of them that I was too young but the rise of when the Americans arrive and take up more and more space then we see more and more soldiers then all that 66,67,68 I remember the presentations of LBJ Johnson who explains why they are going to bomb Cambodia that was live on TV, it's all this story of the Vietnam War I am and therefore I am also the whole anti-war pro-peace movement which sets up the demonstrations all that you know what we mean we talk a lot about where you know we talk it's because of Trump then to because of recent events in the United States we talk a lot about the violence of the demonstrations since 5 6 so you know in the United States that it is a violent moment and man returns returns to the archives Watts in 67' Detroit in 68 the les the the city centers were burning there you know what we what we don't see you know it's like somebody gets killed and it's like oh my god today but at that time the city centers were burning there had lots of people who were killed on the demonstrations in the riots in the fact that where I'm leaving with that I was going in the in just the side that it was a lot you know it was very it was it's very very very present in even if I know I was just 15 you know I I was 13, 13, 14 years old no I was 12,11,12 years old then I saw that I did that I followed this whole affair of the rise of anti-Vietnam war activists fact that I think when we arrive in and 73 and 74 we are in the middle you know that it's a bad thing at the top of all that means that the answer to your question is very long but but yes we were aware of it and we were there were a lot of people in the counterculture who supported anti-Vietnam War activists, not to mention there were also Americans who fled the draft dodgers, are you aware of that? Does it mean anything to you if I tell you that? JA: No JMD: if I tell you that it's the Pascals at the time, eh in the United States there was the draft, that is to say that everyone who was subject had to enter the army, young men from 18 or 19 years old I don't remember having to register for the draft the draft it was like a he randomly chose a bunch of a bunch of names and you had to introduce yourself you had to be part of you had to spend 2.3 years in the army and you and if you were if you were chosen if you you had to go to the war if you know that it was done that there were many young Americans who were against the war or a certain number of young Americans who as soon as they reached the age where they could get drafted could be registered in the army they crossed the border and then they came from the United States to Canada to Canada at that time there they were not sent back to the United States even if they were fugitives from American justice, they were not sent back because Canada was against Canada had a more neutral position at that time in relation to the Vietnam War meant that they were not sent back because there were lots of drafts Dodgers went especially went a lot to Vancouver in the big cities, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal there were a lot of drafts done there were all these all these people who fed the who could talk about the of the of the demonstrations against the Vietnam War there was a whole network to help them there was there were there were people Canadians who met them at the border or who crossed who went to pick them up by car then bring them back through the border to take them out of the United States. There was a whole network that arrived. There were people who received them at their home. them you know refugees they were political refugees here with a little history lesson, I just gave you a history lesson. JA: I didn't know that JMD: The draft dodgers, okay. JA: Yeah I didn't know that so it's interesting that I didn't know that there were people fleeing the United States and all that so, it's good to know JMD: Haha okay JA: Next question is in the 1960s rock and roll artists encouraged various forms of protest so did your parents view rock and roll as a movement of rebellion or as just a form of popular music? JMD: Oh no no no I mean me I have I have I am really from my parents on the Big Bang generation of the Big Bang then of jazz well of jazz of the Big band swing you know Bing crosby Frank Sinatra all people that I love to listen to people that I love to listen to today but the but the no to the others the rock was the Beatles what what was that? Ah we have long hair oh my god we keep it today we don't believe it but yes yes he was he was sitting in you they let me listen to what I wanted then you know there's no it was not so worse me but for the others I don't know they saw it so much like rebellion that yeah it's not it's not politicized for the others I wouldn't say that it's politicized it was young people who were who were a little crazy then who did a little crazy business then but it's that he didn't take it very very seriously I would tell you. JA: Okay. JMD: Just to add they were not scandalized by the pelvic movements of Elvis Presley like the people from the South of the United States who come to censor he was my my parents they were never there to that extent. JA: yeah I understand what you mean it wasn't the same thing that we see more like in the States there. JMD: Yeah it's the religious right, the religious right what we call that we know or today that we see today that we said it already existed and it was already a movement which wanted to censor the youth which wanted to censor the words which wanted to censor everything that they others considered to already exist JA: Okay, next question some ways in the 1970s youth culture encouraged or encouraged recreational drug taking to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus in the 70s? JMD: Ah Well, he was completely available like completely available from everyone knew someone everyone knew pusher everyone had their pusher or knew a pusher then there was all the whole range of yes it's is it's it's it's especially means you know all that it starts more more in the 60s all the culture you know the culture of the especially marijuana pot all that the hash all that that's that it's especially in the 60s that it became uh that it became popular but I would say that it became whiter, that is to say it was reserved for several for several decades it was it 'was we we kept that in the ghettos eh there was there was a there was a there was the culture the drug that we knew in the jazz musician sometimes much stronger by heroin we are talking about smack among jazz musicians in the 50s/60s well into the 60s there it became popular, it came out of the ghettos for the pot became who had always been known said there are old songs about cocaine which date 1920s fact that it's not it's not it's unknown it's a but it's a bit it's a bit fair to an elite of people who had money there was but there 60s wow there that there it's gone it's gone we they have everyone me I me I me It's actually there seemed to be more at secondary school than at university but that it's in my memory JA: I assume it was less dangerous than it is today with all the variants JMD: Yes yes yes obviously I think we are talking about other other things when we talk about crack cocaine then we talk about all the chemicals all that is there is another one another level there then there is obviously fentanyl then that's all that we have opioids all this range but at the time there was obviously there was everything called pot and and and and of this of this variant there was cocaine there was heroin which was which was available on the market there were others there were what we called speeds but anyway and uh it' is it was clearly less less dangerous I think I think I think we can we can say that. JA: it's just like I'm not saying that I would like to do drugs but it's of value as if I would like it's like it's not the same thing as at the time like in the 70 you know people could just do that then it was more like it's not going like the big chance that has fentanyl in it or it's laced with something that you can die then it's just like JMD: No no no no JA: It's just like a completely different story today which I find really sad because there are people who are hostages that's what we want to experience yesterday but we experience then here there are very serious consequences like JMD: much more serious much yes yes yes things are clear clack that it was less in the there are there were stories of you know to earn more money crime is crime you know but but clearly it's much less dangerous and obviously there is the I can tell you it's it's the opioid epidemic all of that which will start more in the 90s even early 2000 than there is the there's there's there's there's that's really happening on the market or legal and it's illegal it's JA: yeah also yeah it's not related to well as it's not a question in the interview but I'm wondering have you noticed like a lot of people on the streets like that today like with needles and things like that? JMD: Oh no, no no no no no no no no no no no that's it that's extremely shocking means for me clearly but no no no there was no there was there was always itinerants people in the street but it was, let's tell you, I saw the when I saw when we closed the psychiatric institutions and for good reason we that it helped a lot of people to get them out of these institutions there to be able to self-heal heal you know there are all kinds of good reasons why what we closed what we called in the time asylums what is what is safe for example is that governments have not taken their full responsibility in hand to ensure that people taken out of institutions do not find themselves on the street in a state of homelessness, a fact that I have seen everything out there was always you know there was always what the rest of us called you know the street bums, the alcoholic you know who panhadling you know on the corner of the street there was one it was it was very but I can I think we are talking about the late 90s all of a sudden we close the institutions we close the editions the asylums what we called the asylums means that there are lots of people who have problems of mental health who are going to end up in the community and who are going to fall through the cracks and who are going to end up on the street and who are then going to deteriorate it's it's it's it's very very shocking I think it's certainly shocking for you others for you for you but it's very shocking for my generation to see it accelerate to this point it's me I pass all the because I am in Val-des-monts in Perkins but when I return to Hull Gatineau I see the stream there are all the tents the tent village I don't know if you've heard of it or seen photos. From the tent village near the arena in Hull in any case there is a village there are like 30 40 people living in the tent, it is the month of November that doesn't make sense it's really then I work a lot on the new scene that's for sure King Edward close to Murray opposite or sideways with the with good sheperd then you know it's especially uh not you know in the bytown I I don't know if you've been by recently it's there it's there it's there it's like fucking poor people central, it's like it's no common sense. The number of because I see that I see that increasing for years it's quite really very very very very shocking JA: That's not a good campus experience either because that's just what I see as JMD: Yes JA: And I just it's not a pretty sight JMD: no but no but no it's sad and it's it's it's it's me I didn't just mention the people with the needles means I was in the car tomorrow Montreal Road Montreal right corner right at the bridge to the cummings bridge which crosses towards Ottawa you know from being there in front there is someone sitting in the bus stop who is a policeman who is there is a police car from the other side then you know I turn around then I there it's a young woman of around thirty I would say what is it that she is in the middle of the day in the middle of the street you know I do where the hell am I it's what let's see it's it's it's that but yes where am I danced like Christian Jean who in in the most best in the most best country in the world you know eh what in Canada in Ottawa then there is no there is no way to hide that to help the good to help we changed the situation so here I am making a pact with you so that I understand that you are shocked by this JA: I just wanted to see your answer JMD: Sudbury, Sudbury is so awful, downtown Sudbury, I don't know if you've been there recently JA: Yes yes JMD: Oh my god just below the bridge there above next to the railway tracks it's it's terrible, in any case it's very sad. JA: Okay, here we move on to the second section then it's the female experience JMD: Yes JA: there is a little paragraph that says; Cultural historians have written extensively on what he calls second-wave feminist that the counterculture movement of the early 1970s sought to break up the stakes between the sexes. This argument sums up: it with your experience on the Ottawa University campus in the early 70s? JMD: Oh yeah, absolutely absolutely it's we mean I'm the 70s all all my all my friends they are are very vocal very feminist and it's it's it's me I I I I support j 'supported I supported I have I but it's clear the whole gang I see them all Maureen, Penny Nikki all the Anglos but also the Franco there I have I have with her on a feminist project cabaret, it was wild it was great and it was yes absolutely and it's right there yes it's it's clearly identified with the 2nd wave which had which obviously had started with Simone de Beauvoir shortly after the we can call the 2nd the the 2nd world war but which had it was accelerated on the campuses during the 60s Women's lib you know the burning of the broth there was there was there was all this phenomenon there but returned in the years 70 it was it was inked among young women who were at the university who were right in there so yes it corresponds to my experience. JA: Well that’s good. In your own words what did feminism mean in Canada in the early 70s? JMD: Uh, uh what did and equality mean in the sense of equality of opportunities equality of opportunities there were people started talking obviously about the women had to be paid as much as the men you know there was all that the gap between the the salaries were already crazy they were still like So that was a big debate ah and obviously the control of their body the control of their body is for me it's clear I mean we are Morgan Tyler it's when when when it's when it's Morgan Tyler it's in the years I don't have the you know who I'm talking about when I do Morgan Tyler? Ok this is the trial of a doctor Henry Morgan polar Montreal who had a clinic he brought women there it was illegal he was arrested he was taken to court the jury there did not convict him we brought him back short the jury did not condemn that and it is his case which went to the Supreme Court and which will make that the judges do listen to the politicians you have to settle this the rest of us we can't we can't condemn him we can't there the law is unconstitutional the law is unjust in quotes which means that it will be his case which will make that the abortion will be in the step there to verify legalize for legalize because it wasn't it wasn't written that it's I don't even know it's really written that it's legal but decriminalize in any case that the fact that women had access to abortion had the de facto right that this is her case it happened in those years so it is clear that this is a this is a big big this is part of the feminist agenda and again, that's how I would describe the feminism of those years, equality, rights or control of one's body. JA: It's interesting because it's a different life but it's not different because abortion is still in question but maybe not in Canada but JMD: yes but wait Polièvre takes power well see about that listen it's already you know there is no clinic there is there is there is just a clinic in there is no clinic on the island of Prince Edward with the women are forced to go to Nova Scotia and I think that there is just one clinic in Moncton in all of New Brunswick that there are in Alberta are in the process of closing the clinics and everything that no no no he listens it's get out there get out there get on the streets, we have to demonstrate to bring them there, we have to, we haven't won I allow myself to say we, we haven't won still completely this right there is it's not entirely winning in any case. JA: Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 70s than today, so what does being a woman mean? JMD: Ah I don't necessarily agree with that but go ahead and continue JA: How does being a woman create a tradition of different treatment and expectations than male students in classrooms or social events? JMD: listen it's friends were so “smoked” but it was it was I think it's it's it's true that institutionally or traditionally then it's still true in the 70s but it's that's how it works and it changed during the late 60s early 70s I think there were still there we have to check but I think there are still barriers the same barriers as we can still see a little today even if it ended but the barrier scales for the science faculties at that time I think I think it's one of the medical ones had started to move I think that the law was starting to move but it was less done that there were still barriers for the the the possibilities for women in the you know but it's falling really really very very quickly it's in the process of in any case it was my perception it's in my memory what I reacted to your introduction because the difference between men and women was more marked than I do I don't know I'm looking around, the the sexualization of fashion you know about what they say on the fashion section the the in the streets the violence against women there you know there are there are lots of things that I would question your introduction and then I would like to see statistics on that JA: It’s not me who made it there JMD: Ah Well listen to that I yes yes but I I I I'm uh I'm it's the fashion unisex fashion it was it was it was that I don't know when unisex was enough I was quite the fashion of the 60s it's gone it's gone but but it's a difference there it's I'm not I think today I still see a lot of sexism in attitudes in fashion in the still in politics still in you know there are some it's not that's not what I what I just want to say is that it's not won then it's it was I think that what your introduction it works very well if you're talking about the 50s if you're even talking about from the 60s but from the mid to the 1960s when the feminist wave began that we were talking specifically about a university campus in the 70s obviously you have to listen obviously you have to talk to women to have the you have to have the answer of the students of that time here is how she perceived anyway JA: The last question for this section. In the 70s were there university club department programs where women were less present and less accepted? JMD: I haven't been part of a lot of clubs and then but I don't see surely you know I surely know that there were examples where there were but of segregation that I think about it it was over there was no the boys club strictly boys club, there isn't even that it seems to me I have that I have no memory you know it was Gone are the days of taverns for men only hotels ladies welcome I see it's I don't know if you that but there were during in Quebec in any case I think in Ontario also there were sections in the bars where it was women there were not allowed there was no right to enter JA: Really JMD: yes we look look surprise I like it you have to take the photo of your eyes eh well yes well yes there was yes it was for men the what we called taverns at the time it was strictly dead but there were rooms where we had written welcome to the ladies on posters in Montreal they kept it looks a bit retro welcome to the ladies it was changed it's a law that was changed I don't know what it is years but I remember when it changed JA: Yes, I didn’t know that, I learned a lot of things today haha JMD: Well, that’s good. JA: I feel more knowledgeable there JMD: Okay that’s good JA: Okay, so we have another question which is more about ideology and then generational differences. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counter-culture revolution, that is to say that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did the members of your social circle consider that they should mobilize for a fairer society and a better world? JMD: Many don't say it must be said that you still know there I am-I am in the faculty of arts I am with the theater the rest of us question ourselves a lot during this whole period what is the role of theater what is the role of the arts in society we are very permeable we hear I mean it's done it's a lot a lot part of our of the questions we ask ourselves we are very quite politicized I'm going to become even more so afterwards but in you know there are all kinds there is the North American counterculture which is going to come alive you know made of everything that is pop, popular culture rock music, sex drugs and rock and roll you know everything that implies as a change in morals in relation to a society our parents who were born in the 20s who grew up in the 40s then during the 2nd world war immediately after them there was a lot of taboos in relation to a lot of things there were a lot of things we didn't talk about that we talked we certainly didn't talk to each other about sex, we didn't talk about you know drugs didn't exist, lots of alcohol though, but drugs didn't not exist, then we are very their it's me who will caricature their generation but we were very successful socially, money materialist it's very focused on these values then with lots of taboos the counterculture of the 60s it's you know with those with those swinging hips, Elvis Presley and his swinging hips and, the sexual revolution, the pill which arrived at the beginning of the 60s contraception the liberalization of sexuality rock and roll all that and drugs fact that yes we are there is a period of rebellion against society, a little bit that we see as a little prudish, a little bit you know wise about our parents and as soon as we scratch a little bit we do a little bit of 'story we learn that Oh my god they were just as naughty but otherwise but there is all that the 60s it's the baby boom it's the baby boom, it's the whole generation, were taking were taking it over, were were we are and we are the more we are before we are more people the more young people we have we have we have more money we have more education we you know all this happens and that we other parents there you know nothing then we make that there is all this rebellion but enough quickly it will become very political because it sees the against the war of Vietnam against the institutions were all against the man, the man its the expression which means the Man is it is the power it is capitalism it's the boss, the man it's the system, the system's wrong you know we're all we're becoming very political for that it's going to become more and more violent there are Black civil rights movement this which will become of several which goes towards the Black Panthers there is the there is the there are the revolutions on the university campuses of 68 68 in Paris 68 in Montreal which will be of and and the of Big protest they shot at the students demonstrating against the Vietnam War that's all happening while in 68 69 katsu that yes we are we are we are in there and that's going to become that that's going to we're going to identify that that it will become what your teachers your historians call the counterculture we are against the culture of the precedents then we we and it's very political in French Canada of Big thing the independence movement in Quebec which goes nationalist in Quebec then which will end with the rise of the flq the bombs the bombs which explode in Montreal the bombs which explode sites Ottawa and the which will cumulate with the crisis of October October 66 me I am 13 years old me I remember me I remember remember the army in the streets there Ottawa and with the ****** machine guns it was the tanks which returned to Montreal but the fact that there is there is all that the fact is that there is all this political energy there you know it is that at the same time there is the counterculture of the United States against the culture of Paris of France France there is the Quebec nationalist movement which this moment is very left very progressive say it's everyone who you know who you know want want want the revolution you know there are lots of people in there they are talking about revolution Quebec there is there is there are there are bombs there that you know it's very very it's part of this of this movement there means that when I arrive I'm just 16 17 years old but I arrive in this in this culture with my whole generation means that the rest of us talk a lot about that yes yes yes we are very we are very aware we talk about that it is part of our thinking it is part of what we are demonstrating when it there are demonstrations we are in the process of writing poems we are in the process of putting on feminist shows so in the process of you know it's a very much part of of my culture of my friends JA: interesting, so to what extent did your generation think that your parents' notions about gender, family and romantic relationships were outdated, we talked about it a little but JMD: yes yes yes yes Well they were very outdated at the level of what we consider we considered them as plum then you know they were very optical about if you want to have images of what is the the the Google is going to see if it comes back to me, Doris Day, Rock Hudson, those those old comedies, romantic comedies, all the jokes are a little bit sexual, it's all in, the rest of us obviously reject that, which is even funnier it's that the the star when I say rock what is it Rocket no no ok it's he makes you it's because at that time you know obviously there was there was Marilyn Marilyn Monroe and the dead super handsome guy except he was he was well known in the industry it was all hidden he lived you know Wall Croiset angry because he had lost there was it was completely unacceptable I just know how to react because mentioned gender in your in your list it's it's more sexuality homosexuality is still very very very very taboo in the 60s it's no longer there but it's it's clearly thawing in the 70s still there a little in parallel with the Women's lib you had the Game liberation who were with who had their t Stone Wall that OK you go Google to my in stonewall you see that it's a big big demonstration which was repressed very very violently in New York at the beginning of the 60s landmark moment because there the gays organized themselves then they demonstrated there were clashes in any case it happened that it was really done that in the 70s we are definitely post StoneWall it's moving it's still there the rest of us consider that our parents are like completely surpassing its sound not in the people are starting they have this the the the it's it's it's the it's the revolution in quotes the sexual revolution there are people I don't know if I'm still questioned a lot I'm the one who speaks the the l 'idea of the couple it's the idea of the couple of the family that's like me eventually we're going to get there but we we we they while we're young everything goes it's the fun but we I don't think that we are really in question there is a little bit but not as much as what will be called into question from the end of the 80s then 90 that's that that's less in question JA: Okay, in the 70s what aspect of Canadian society was considered the most broken and the most in need of correction? JMD: Ah Well obviously when we are in we are in it is the crisis the crisis of the of Quebec in quotes of the independence of Quebec of the crisis what will become the constitutional crisis what will you know during all the 70s it's listen to that 70 we start with with the kidnapping of a diplomat the clapping of a Quebec minister means that the violence of the Quebec nationalist movement which will quietly disappear in favor of the rise of the pq of the of Quebec party of the bishop of what will take power in 76 and we end the decade with the referendum in 80 makes this whole decade one of the big big questions is the future of the country it is 'it's the very existence of Canada in what form will it take then we'll tell you it's going to end with the the referendum which will be lost by the by the yes but which will be followed but here we arrive in the 80s we must be followed by the the patriation of the Constitution and which will mark the new Canada the Canada in which the rest of us live constitutionally in which we live today means that all the 70s it's a lot a lot it's it's clear that it's it's one of the best there is there are the the causes that we mentioned it's the the equality of women the woman of abortion who will be who will decide in these years who will have the right of these far the trudeau law in 5 and 11 I retain the law loti of the state has no business in the bedrooms of people which will decriminalize homosexual couples it will be a big change also in the fact that this had been changed in relation to what is what concerns us today it there are a few events that remind us of the injustice in relation to the natives I would have to pass an event in particular which was called restigo it is on the border with new brunswick but everything that everything we knows today everything that we say all that it's still it's still unknown it's still not taboo it's just it's invisible it's invisible in our in our consciousness you know of of students there are a few there are there are there are Marlon Brando who when I won his score refused to go there and sent a native woman to receive him to denounce the way we treat the natives if you want to check that anecdote I remember seeing that doing Oh wow no I remember that listen I'm saying that I'm remembering I there was this is this woman who arrived having heard for the first time about Walt Disney the massacre of Wounded Lee if you don't know that it's another another historical fact you know that where there is the army the army the American army massacred some of the Lakota Dakota in the in the American West end of it's a horrific event like massacred at the penalty yeah to have heard about fact that no I had there was still, some jobs were a bit like that, that saddens me today because because I have a lot of indigenous friends that means I know that it's in yes we speak trans but there they obviously it was not that it was for it was not at all it was not at all in our on our Adam but the the homosexual cause which at that time includes includes the the the the lesbian cause that's it I'm using the words that we used at the time homosexual lesbians that was yes that was on our radar if we had friends with whom we and we obviously go there that's but that's it it's very it's precise there all all that in the 70s we are politically pro-liberation if you want then too anti-discriminatory but what is really going to change the situation for this community is going to be the what's 'comes the AIDS epidemic then all the deaths tell me all the deaths I have I have several I have a few friends who were among the first wave of deaths in the early 80s JA: the next similar question there it just says these are some which were the main injustices in the 70s but as I think they are coming to touch me there JMD: Yeah I think so haha JA: Yes, that’s it, JMD: ecology is very elected there we have we are we are aware obviously we don't talk about global warming we don't talk about you know but we are aware of pollution pollution that's part of it it's on our it's on our agenda vindications of young people of young activists there would we stop polluting the earth we are not aware of we we we we do not yet know to what extent that that that that that that it also if we have it is he not aware that basically it should have been much more urgent when in those years we could have we could have done something more but but that's part of it's on the agenda JA: okay, the last question for as it was section there is did you have the feeling that the political system was democratic and fair and that it met the needs of citizens JMD: no everything I today today I know would qualify it because I would qualify it because I see we see how democracies are attacked From the inside by well certain certain extremists who who who dismantle that we see we see what happened in Poland we see what happened in Hungary we see what happened in the United States we see what is happening in the United States we know that we are attacking democracy then that then you know today today I would be I I would do well the the the famous quote I don't know if I know the quote from Winston Churchill it's it's it's it's it's not perfect but all the others are worse all the others you know will take away people's voices fact that but at the time when I was young I must admit I was much more critical of the of the system of the voting system of the system of democratic because it left too much power to those who disagreed with me we wanted things to change more and more quickly and therefore one reason why it did not change as quickly but because the parliamentary system slowed down for the rest of us it slowed down it's making the course of history slow down that yes there was there was a feeling there was there was an impatience that's why the guys know it the example I was I was I was far from agreeing with the young people of the FLQ during all those years that was the argument of the separatists of the young people you know it was the world of 22 23 24 years old the others said listen, Quebec must be independent one of the reasons why it is not independent is because democracy the way it is to organize the people does not have the possibility of taking power then changing the things mean that the rest of us are going to bring about this change then democracy has to be planted bombs then they come to know about it I don't agree with that but it was certainly part of the discourse of a lot of people it was that it was unfair and that it slowed things down and then it gave too much too much power to the rich too much power to those who not too much power to the rich then not enough to what the rest of us called 'we can always call the people JA: ok theres another question then after that theres smaller questions then that's all, the cultural historians have affirmed that the introduction of the contraceptive pill the legislation shale legalization of abortion and the diffusion of the idea of theology free love changed relationships between men and women and romantic practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? JMD: absolutely agree with this statement there yes yes in relation to the all the the the the the barriers between the at the same time I I would add I would add in the list the mixed education that is to say you know, we must not forget that it was during the 60s, let's say I went to a boys' school until my 12th year of secondary 5, no no, that's it, I was, I was, I was I went to a traditional college I went to one of the primary schools it was all it was bloated it was difficult it was segregated the secondary schools were segregated then it's right there with the public schools somewhere in the 60s that it begins to we find ourselves the challenge in our class Oh my God who have huts notes that the rest of us yes it was it was all new that and and for the the girls also obviously the and it's but it's the same thing for the secondary position I don't I don't want to mix it up but the integration of women and the you know all that all all this mixed education there all this movement goes against one of a culture almost of civilization which was based a lot on the separation of the sexes on the difference between the sexes you know we do that yes all that happens all at the same time then obviously the the the abortion pill the liberation of that everything suddenly women could choose to procreate or not to have to be able to manage their body to not be dependent or to be afraid of it is especially in a the and the liberation of to move away from the Catholic Church also in any case for the Canasay French that I think of helping a lot also it liberates all that means that that's what makes Ah the relationships are much more egalitarian perhaps not always but more open more yeah and that's it has certainly changed the relationships between men and women yes a lot JA; then what was the campus like and dating like JMD: listen to me again here I mean me I work I always work I was always in a team with if I was always me I besides since always because of the job that I do I speak the I myself I I always find myself in a situation of of and then it started it started there it started in high school a little less high school we have a brand new concept there girls guys eh but now at and just 16 years old little asses and but the but the more and more space then which makes the dating what it looks like it's it was more of the more of the friends then the you have a shot in the party then suddenly yeah the hand slips then yes OKOK hi then I was I wasn't because I was still there 16,17,18 I'm going to be much more active I'm sexually active but a lot more sexually active later when I go to Quebec it's going to be all of a sudden it's going to become other things for me from 19 to 20 in my twenties all that but I still had some experiences when I was JA: ok then the last question is how does your generation view family and marriage? JMD:Oh my god Well me me I have I have I have been obviously it's very different from other cultures at the moment besides in the world other civilizations other cultures it's very different from of what it was for our parents until then until the 60s and 70s in the sense that you had to be listened to had to be a virgin when you got married told us that was it that was that that was the law, even religious law, but that was almost the law and it was the norm and it was even if there was a lot of hypocrisy about that that we start to ask. the real questions we look at the affairs Oh yes Oh Oh the bosses uh you know Free Love is invented back and then but the but but it was it what was the question then the marriage meant that yes that was like the institution the institution which was compulsory from the end of the 60s certainly 70 it is no longer compulsory we will see from there the amount of the the number of de facto spouses of people who live together will increase compared to in the world of people who get married everyone decides to go me I have never married in my life fact that I have but I have I had a few re which lasted several years and and eventually a daughter and who but that later meant that there was it's the beginning of the the choice of yes or no to marry becomes a real choice for an obligation and the choice of yes or no to have children early immediately becomes a choice more and more the fact that definitely it's not that people are against marriage necessarily or against having children but it becomes +1 choice and the choice of not having them or of delaying having them becomes normal, that's part of it of our culture of my generation people there are people I know several women who have who have now who are my age who are 65 70 who have chosen not to have children I know some who have chosen to have older children I know some who had children very young it's all this all this whole this range of choices there how it is with our generation I think it's becoming really normal to have these choices there JA: ok that was the last question, thank you very much for being part of the study and then I can stop the recording there to JMD: it goes as you wish JA: I don’t know how to do that stop there uh yes stop recording Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Microsoft Teams meeting Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dalpé, Jean-Marc (interview) Language A language of the resource French Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario, as a Francophone during the 1970's, also including topics on the counter-culture revolution. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24