4 10 55 Person An individual. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bendall, Alex Location The location of the interview Boston, Massachusetts, United States (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.880 Alex Bendall All right, sounds good. 0:0:1.90 --> 0:0:5.930 Puffer, Sheila Mm hmm. And if you have 3 themes it would be good if you could tell me what the three themes are as an overview. 0:0:6.840 --> 0:0:22.680 Alex Bendall Absolutely. So there's like I have about a few sentences to start each one. The first one is impact of culture. The second one is the feminist experience. And the third one is. 0:0:23.960 --> 0:0:25.800 Alex Bendall Ideology and generational differences. 0:0:30.990 --> 0:0:33.510 Puffer, Sheila So the first one is the influence of pop culture. 0:0:34.740 --> 0:0:35.60 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:0:35.610 --> 0:0:36.450 Puffer, Sheila On what? 0:0:38.40 --> 0:0:40.960 Alex Bendall Just popular culture of the 1970s in general. 0:0:41.630 --> 0:0:44.990 Puffer, Sheila Oh, the influence of it, or just my experience with it. 0:0:48.610 --> 0:0:57.890 Alex Bendall I guess your experience, I think that, yeah, this whole interview, it's about like your experience from University of Ottawa in the 1970s, so. 0:0:59.290 --> 0:1:0.810 Alex Bendall My first question is. 0:1:1.180 --> 0:1:6.540 Puffer, Sheila Wait, I'd. I'm so that is the first theme. The second one was feminist. 0:1:7.830 --> 0:1:10.270 Alex Bendall Yeah. The second one is the feminist experience. 0:1:11.930 --> 0:1:29.530 Alex Bendall So, like cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave of feminism. That is part of the counterculture movement and with women during their early 1970s sought to break gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? 0:1:30.590 --> 0:1:33.190 Puffer, Sheila OK. So we're just talking about the early 1970s. 0:1:33.990 --> 0:1:34.270 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:1:35.260 --> 0:1:37.700 Puffer, Sheila What time span do you want? 0:1:39.510 --> 0:1:42.30 Alex Bendall Uh, whenever you were attending UOttawa. 0:1:42.430 --> 0:1:43.670 Puffer, Sheila I was there for a long time. 0:1:44.560 --> 0:1:45.640 Alex Bendall How long were you there for? 0:1:46.110 --> 0:1:46.710 Puffer, Sheila Eight years. 0:1:47.460 --> 0:1:48.140 Alex Bendall Eight years. 0:1:48.420 --> 0:1:49.100 Puffer, Sheila I think so. 0:1:50.800 --> 0:1:51.440 Puffer, Sheila Let me see. 0:1:57.660 --> 0:1:59.700 Puffer, Sheila 71 to 79. 0:2:0.830 --> 0:2:1.350 Alex Bendall Perfect. 0:2:0.860 --> 0:2:3.580 Puffer, Sheila That's eight years. 0:2:4.680 --> 0:2:4.880 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:2:5.620 --> 0:2:6.660 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, I think I got my. 0:2:8.300 --> 0:2:10.500 Puffer, Sheila Yes, I got my MBA in 1979. 0:2:11.920 --> 0:2:11.960 Puffer, Sheila OK. 0:2:13.580 --> 0:2:16.100 Puffer, Sheila All right. Yeah, it's a long time ago, Alex. 0:2:19.260 --> 0:2:19.580 Puffer, Sheila Alright. 0:2:19.410 --> 0:2:19.930 Alex Bendall I'll just. 0:2:21.110 --> 0:2:21.350 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:2:21.810 --> 0:2:23.970 Alex Bendall Just tell me whatever you can, but whatever you remember. 0:2:24.130 --> 0:2:25.690 Puffer, Sheila Yep. And then the third thing is. 0:2:27.280 --> 0:2:28.400 Alex Bendall The third thing. 0:2:29.920 --> 0:2:33.680 Alex Bendall Is also part of what they call a counterculture revolution. 0:2:35.400 --> 0:2:44.600 Alex Bendall Meaning your generation tend, like, rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. So what would be your experience with that topic? 0:2:45.980 --> 0:2:46.700 Puffer, Sheila I see. 0:2:49.420 --> 0:2:50.380 Puffer, Sheila Same. OK. 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Puffer, Sheila OK. 0:2:54.500 --> 0:3:1.540 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. Alright, yeah. It's a little different from what I was expecting, but that's quite alright. So please go ahead. 0:3:1.230 --> 0:3:2.750 Alex Bendall Yep, alright. 0:3:5.390 --> 0:3:8.430 Alex Bendall So for the first question about popular culture. 0:3:10.170 --> 0:3:21.250 Alex Bendall There were obviously less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:3:27.690 --> 0:3:28.930 Puffer, Sheila Went skating on the canal. 0:3:30.310 --> 0:3:30.510 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:3:32.350 --> 0:3:33.230 Puffer, Sheila Too bad you couldn't do it. 0:3:32.820 --> 0:3:37.60 Alex Bendall I tried to do that. Yeah, exactly. I tried to do that last year. It didn't didn't work out. 0:3:37.740 --> 0:3:38.340 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, mm hmm. 0:3:40.700 --> 0:3:41.100 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:3:43.170 --> 0:3:46.770 Puffer, Sheila Having a small group of friends over. 0:3:48.480 --> 0:3:48.800 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:3:49.90 --> 0:3:51.10 Puffer, Sheila Socializing with small groups of friends. 0:3:54.720 --> 0:3:57.840 Alex Bendall Whereabouts on campus? Did you live? 0:4:0.430 --> 0:4:2.510 Puffer, Sheila First year I lived in a brand new building. 0:4:4.630 --> 0:4:4.750 Alex Bendall Oh. 0:4:5.80 --> 0:4:6.400 Puffer, Sheila It was a high rise. 0:4:7.480 --> 0:4:9.280 Puffer, Sheila It was across from Le Blanc Hall. 0:4:13.90 --> 0:4:16.90 Puffer, Sheila And it was Coed. The different floors were Coed. 0:4:18.180 --> 0:4:18.300 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. 0:4:21.240 --> 0:4:22.600 Puffer, Sheila Can't remember the name of it now. 0:4:24.200 --> 0:4:24.600 Alex Bendall That's fine. 0:4:23.900 --> 0:4:26.580 Puffer, Sheila Was brand new that year in 1971. 0:4:28.600 --> 0:4:28.800 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:4:28.160 --> 0:4:28.880 Puffer, Sheila Think it came in. 0:4:30.440 --> 0:4:31.720 Puffer, Sheila Yes, I came in 71. 0:4:35.460 --> 0:4:35.500 Alex Bendall N. 0:4:38.150 --> 0:4:42.230 Alex Bendall What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? 0:4:44.280 --> 0:4:45.800 Puffer, Sheila Oh, father and son. 0:4:48.280 --> 0:4:50.0 Alex Bendall Is that-... what was that? 0:4:50.370 --> 0:4:51.130 Puffer, Sheila It's a restaurant. 0:4:51.780 --> 0:4:52.780 Alex Bendall Restaurant. Yeah. OK. 0:4:53.440 --> 0:4:57.160 Puffer, Sheila It's still there or it was there the last time I was there, like a couple of years ago. 0:4:58.220 --> 0:4:59.620 Alex Bendall I don't think I've seen that yet. 0:5:4.220 --> 0:5:4.460 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:4:59.720 --> 0:5:5.800 Puffer, Sheila Well, obviously it's a classic. It's been around for over 50 years. It was old by then when I was there. 0:5:7.280 --> 0:5:12.520 Puffer, Sheila Another one was there was a marvelous lunch place inside a church on Laurier. 0:5:14.280 --> 0:5:14.480 Alex Bendall OK. 0:5:14.960 --> 0:5:18.280 Puffer, Sheila Was really, really good food. Yeah, we used to go there for a lot. 0:5:19.440 --> 0:5:19.920 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:5:27.360 --> 0:5:37.680 Alex Bendall Did you attend any live music events during university years or what were the most popular musicians or artists at that time? Are your favorites maybe. 0:5:38.340 --> 0:5:47.180 Puffer, Sheila Hmm, I used to go to the National Arts Centre regularly. I had subscriptions to my husband, my husband and I had subscriptions to both the French and the English theater. 0:5:48.600 --> 0:5:49.120 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:5:52.80 --> 0:6:2.640 Puffer, Sheila And we went to just about everybody who came through. So we saw people who are long dead now. We saw in terms of music, we saw Buddy Rich, the drummer. 0:6:4.650 --> 0:6:5.330 Puffer, Sheila We saw. 0:6:12.210 --> 0:6:14.770 Puffer, Sheila With oh, Oh my gosh, we saw. 0:6:17.180 --> 0:6:18.500 Puffer, Sheila Not sure how they found you. 0:6:21.780 --> 0:6:23.780 Puffer, Sheila His name was Julbert Vecco. 0:6:25.340 --> 0:6:51.580 Puffer, Sheila And my husband and I used to laugh because we were laughing through the performance because he was a heavy smoker. He was a singer. Fabulous, like Tom Jones or something like that. He was really charismatic. And in between songs, he would go off stage and you could see the cigarette smoke. But billowing out from behind that curtain. And then he'd come out and he'd sing another song. 0:6:52.900 --> 0:6:55.180 Puffer, Sheila He didn't last long, but he was really good. 0:6:59.490 --> 0:7:0.90 Alex Bendall That's great. 0:7:1.0 --> 0:7:5.840 Puffer, Sheila So we used to go to pretty much everybody who came to the National Arts Centre. 0:7:7.200 --> 0:7:13.0 Puffer, Sheila And we occasionally went to that fair, the exhibition where the animals were. 0:7:15.360 --> 0:7:21.0 Puffer, Sheila It was called the ax, something like that, I forget what it's called. Some sort of agricultural fair down by Lansdown. 0:7:22.160 --> 0:7:27.160 Alex Bendall Oh yeah, yeah, like the big barn they have there beside Lansdowne Park. Yeah, OK, I know. 0:7:26.380 --> 0:7:29.500 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. So the animal competitions and. 0:7:30.410 --> 0:7:31.170 Alex Bendall Oh yeah. OK. 0:7:31.430 --> 0:7:34.670 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. So it was pretty simple stuff. 0:7:37.540 --> 0:7:38.740 Puffer, Sheila But in terms of? 0:7:40.420 --> 0:7:40.980 Puffer, Sheila Let me see. 0:7:42.440 --> 0:7:48.200 Puffer, Sheila OK, so anyway, go ahead. What else have you got to ask me? Those are a few little nuggets. 0:7:49.380 --> 0:7:53.940 Alex Bendall That's great. Like who? Who's your favorite musician of that time, do you think? 0:7:54.640 --> 0:7:55.480 Puffer, Sheila Gordon Lightfoot. 0:7:56.540 --> 0:7:57.740 Alex Bendall Gordon Lightfoot? Yeah. 0:8:2.130 --> 0:8:2.330 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:7:58.980 --> 0:8:3.500 Alex Bendall Didn't he pass away? Like pretty recently? I feel like I heard that recently. Yeah. 0:8:4.30 --> 0:8:10.750 Puffer, Sheila And I heard him in Boston, where I live about 10 years ago, and his voice was just shot. 0:8:11.900 --> 0:8:12.460 Alex Bendall That's too bad. 0:8:12.520 --> 0:8:15.320 Puffer, Sheila But he was still performing because he loved to perform. Yeah. 0:8:15.390 --> 0:8:15.630 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:8:18.130 --> 0:8:22.970 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, he didn't have much lung capacity at the time. But anyway, yeah, Gordon Lightfoot. 0:8:25.430 --> 0:8:25.630 Alex Bendall In. 0:8:27.560 --> 0:8:29.840 Alex Bendall OK. My next question is. 0:8:31.50 --> 0:8:48.10 Alex Bendall Since Ottawa was you, Ottawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s, like did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same courses and participate in the same clubs and all hang out together? Or is it really kind of separated a bit? 0:8:53.500 --> 0:8:53.700 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:8:51.430 --> 0:8:55.550 Puffer, Sheila I'm angry. Fun. I grew up in the east in. 0:8:55.590 --> 0:8:57.990 Puffer, Sheila Numerous cities across Canada that are English speaking cities. 0:8:59.550 --> 0:8:59.870 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:9:1.470 --> 0:9:6.790 Puffer, Sheila I started learning French in under Bay Ontario when I was 12. 0:9:8.550 --> 0:9:9.150 Puffer, Sheila And that was. 0:9:10.870 --> 0:9:17.910 Puffer, Sheila And so I had basic French and I wanted to be a translator and interpreter for the UN from. 0:9:19.600 --> 0:9:32.640 Puffer, Sheila French to English, since English is my mother tongue. So I enrolled in why I came to the University of Ottawa was to study in the School of Translators and interpreters. 0:9:34.160 --> 0:9:48.320 Puffer, Sheila I was one of two English speaking native English speaking people in that programme programme was designed for French speakers to translate to, do translation and interpretation into English. 0:9:49.190 --> 0:9:52.110 Puffer, Sheila So essentially I did the programme backwards. 0:9:53.310 --> 0:9:53.510 Puffer, Sheila Right. 0:9:53.850 --> 0:9:54.10 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:9:54.950 --> 0:10:1.590 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. And I I, uh, tried to, uh, engage in virtually as many things. 0:10:2.150 --> 0:10:5.790 Puffer, Sheila Oh Hun, in French as I could. 0:10:5.830 --> 0:10:6.190 Puffer, Sheila Including. 0:10:7.260 --> 0:10:11.140 Puffer, Sheila In my MBA, but I was there as an undergraduate in that translators and interpreters programme. 0:10:12.540 --> 0:10:12.780 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:10:14.900 --> 0:10:19.140 Puffer, Sheila So I was learning French all the time there and. 0:10:20.780 --> 0:10:37.260 Puffer, Sheila I would go to French speaking events, but I would say overall the English speaking students kept themselves and the French speaking students wanted to keep to themselves. But I was in an exceptional programme there where I was the outlier, one of two outliers, right? 0:10:38.780 --> 0:10:40.340 Puffer, Sheila And it turned out. 0:10:41.940 --> 0:10:42.180 Puffer, Sheila That. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:44.880 Puffer, Sheila Oh, and I would insist. 0:10:46.290 --> 0:10:46.810 Puffer, Sheila When? 0:10:48.810 --> 0:11:10.530 Puffer, Sheila Umm, on campus and everywhere around Ottawa, I would insist on having people speak to me in French and as soon as they as I open my mouth they even though I spoke French, you know reasonably well they could tell that I was an Anglophone and they would kind of politely or automatically switch into English and I would have to say no, no, no. 0:11:12.350 --> 0:11:12.510 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:11:11.130 --> 0:11:17.770 Puffer, Sheila You focus your papers, OK? What's your name of Francis? So that was, that was my thing. 0:11:19.370 --> 0:11:19.610 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:48.680 Puffer, Sheila I had a stenographer's book. You don't know what that is, but it's a line book and it has. OK, so it has its coil and it has lines, vertical lines, excuse me, horizontal lines and then a vertical line down the middle. And I filled up several of those books where I learned a French word. And then I found the English translation. So I definitely came out of the University of Ottawa, bilingual. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:50.680 Puffer, Sheila And when I. 0:11:52.130 --> 0:11:56.650 Puffer, Sheila But I did switch my major from the school of translators and interpreters. 0:12:2.340 --> 0:12:2.860 Alex Bendall Interesting. 0:11:58.50 --> 0:12:8.130 Puffer, Sheila To Slavic studies, my undergraduate degree is in Slavic studies because, yeah, you had to take another language when you were in the school of translators and interpreters. 0:12:9.660 --> 0:12:10.20 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:12:13.210 --> 0:12:17.970 Puffer, Sheila Umm I was advised by a professor not at Ottawa. 0:12:19.410 --> 0:12:19.890 Puffer, Sheila All the French. 0:12:21.380 --> 0:12:27.620 Puffer, Sheila Speaking students in another translator school at Laurentian University, where I started out. 0:12:35.570 --> 0:12:35.890 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:12:28.940 --> 0:12:51.900 Puffer, Sheila They were all going to take Spanish as their third language and I thought, well, I'll do that too. But the director of that translation and interpretation programme took me aside and said, you know, you can take Spanish anytime. I suggest a more challenging language for you. Oh, really? I suggest Russian. I said OK. 0:12:52.340 --> 0:12:56.660 Puffer, Sheila So I just felt I not only fell in love with Russian. 0:12:57.700 --> 0:13:1.180 Puffer, Sheila And all things Slavic. When I met my husband. 0:13:3.100 --> 0:13:11.100 Puffer, Sheila Thanks to the University of Ottawa and I was 18 years old, and if you're gonna ask me, are you gonna ask me about clubs? 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.80 Puffer, Sheila OK. Well then I'll save it for clubs. 0:13:17.300 --> 0:13:23.180 Alex Bendall No, it's OK. You can tell me how I'm kind of like already in the club section. You can keep going. 0:13:22.350 --> 0:13:25.230 Puffer, Sheila Alright, thank you. OK, so. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.240 Puffer, Sheila January 5th, 1970 two 6:00 PM. 0:13:33.630 --> 0:13:41.390 Puffer, Sheila I showed up in Professor Douglas Clayton's office. 0:13:42.830 --> 0:13:44.590 Puffer, Sheila Second course in second year, Russian with him. 0:13:46.350 --> 0:14:0.910 Puffer, Sheila And he said come to my office at that time. If you're interested in starting up a Russian social club, Slavic social club called Slavyansky Bazar. That's what he was calling it. Slavic bazaar. And guess who showed up. 0:14:2.40 --> 0:14:12.80 Puffer, Sheila Maybe forced to for three or four other students, including my future husband, who was a graduate student. He was doing his master's in Russian literature. 0:14:13.580 --> 0:14:17.780 Puffer, Sheila Well, right then and there in that professor's office. 0:14:20.450 --> 0:14:26.690 Puffer, Sheila That graduate student and myself just thought it was the coup de foudre. Do you know about coup de foudre? 0:14:28.940 --> 0:14:29.500 Puffer, Sheila Oh, OK. 0:14:31.220 --> 0:14:32.300 Puffer, Sheila I guess love at first sight. 0:14:33.250 --> 0:14:33.770 Alex Bendall Oh, OK, yeah. 0:14:33.980 --> 0:14:37.460 Puffer, Sheila But I love the expression coup de foudre because it means lightning struck. 0:14:39.730 --> 0:14:40.10 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:42.40 Puffer, Sheila OK so. 0:14:43.300 --> 0:14:43.580 Puffer, Sheila We just. 0:14:46.830 --> 0:14:47.750 Puffer, Sheila We got married. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.0 Puffer, Sheila Very soon after that. 0:14:52.220 --> 0:14:55.180 Puffer, Sheila And we were married for. 0:14:56.740 --> 0:14:57.820 Puffer, Sheila Almost 30 years. 0:14:59.300 --> 0:15:0.780 Puffer, Sheila And he passed away from cancer. 0:15:2.220 --> 0:15:10.300 Puffer, Sheila 20 years ago and we had two kids and we had a great life and I'm ever grateful to. 0:15:12.340 --> 0:15:14.620 Puffer, Sheila Doctor Douglas Clayton for. 0:15:15.940 --> 0:15:26.420 Puffer, Sheila Inviting students to create the Slavianski Bazaar Club and we did and we had a really good time at that club. We had dances and we had parties and the professors came. 0:15:27.380 --> 0:15:34.260 Puffer, Sheila So very special. I had to get that in there somewhere that my life is completely. 0:15:38.710 --> 0:15:39.590 Puffer, Sheila Fulfilled. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.160 Puffer, Sheila Having had a, you know, a family life like that. 0:15:45.140 --> 0:15:46.820 Puffer, Sheila Having met my husband there. 0:15:49.30 --> 0:15:51.470 Alex Bendall I'm sorry to hear about him. That's a great story. 0:16:0.150 --> 0:16:0.550 Alex Bendall All right. 0:16:0.720 --> 0:16:4.200 Puffer, Sheila By the way, Alex, in case you didn't guess, that was my favorite club. 0:16:8.320 --> 0:16:10.720 Alex Bendall Good. Have you ever been to Russia? 0:16:11.470 --> 0:16:12.390 Puffer, Sheila Many times. 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:13.760 Alex Bendall Many times, yes. 0:16:13.740 --> 0:16:15.340 Puffer, Sheila I'm alright. 0:16:16.470 --> 0:16:23.30 Puffer, Sheila So this is-... we can put this in the feminism feminist experience category, OK? 0:16:24.290 --> 0:16:27.170 Puffer, Sheila OK. So just to continue on. 0:16:30.970 --> 0:16:31.730 Puffer, Sheila And I've had. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:34.640 Puffer, Sheila I've had. 0:16:36.0 --> 0:16:44.200 Puffer, Sheila Men have really helped me out tremendously throughout my life. My husband was my biggest supporter and. 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.760 Puffer, Sheila And that professor who encouraged me to take a hard language that was great too. 0:16:51.620 --> 0:16:52.340 Puffer, Sheila Additionally. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:17:6.560 Puffer, Sheila After I graduated, I started my MBA part time. I was working full time for the National Capital Commission and I'd take my MBA classes and at the same time I was a research assistant to two professors. 0:17:9.840 --> 0:17:10.40 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:17:10.80 --> 0:17:17.600 Puffer, Sheila I'll give you their names. One. They're both in the Business School and they both retired. Jacques, Jabez. 0:17:19.220 --> 0:17:38.300 Puffer, Sheila I I think you spell it JAK and JABES is his last name and the other professor was Michelle Nadzella. Michelle French spelling and then nedsella NEDZELA. So they were friends and they were young professors. 0:17:39.780 --> 0:17:43.140 Puffer, Sheila I worked for them as they were. 0:17:43.180 --> 0:17:49.940 Puffer, Sheila Their research assistant one Saturday morning, they had me come to the university. They sat me down and they said. 0:17:52.770 --> 0:18:10.810 Puffer, Sheila Umm oh and the reason I'll back up a little bit. Professor jabbas. When I was no more than 22 years old, he called me to come to his office. I had. I was his research assistant at that time and I was working full time. 0:18:12.370 --> 0:18:20.130 Puffer, Sheila And I guess I was just finishing my undergrad. No, no, I just. I had just. I had been taking my MBA courses. 0:18:21.850 --> 0:18:21.970 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:18:22.290 --> 0:18:24.450 Puffer, Sheila So I came over and saw him and he said, you know. 0:18:26.250 --> 0:18:31.10 Puffer, Sheila We would like you to teach a course in organizational psychology to the undergraduates. 0:18:32.460 --> 0:18:34.380 Puffer, Sheila Really, I've never taught before. 0:18:35.820 --> 0:18:37.540 Puffer, Sheila Oh, we know you can do it. 0:18:38.100 --> 0:18:39.660 Puffer, Sheila And by the way, it's in French. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:41.920 Puffer, Sheila What? 0:18:44.80 --> 0:18:45.560 Puffer, Sheila And it starts next week. 0:18:47.870 --> 0:18:48.950 Puffer, Sheila I just fell on the floor. 0:18:51.550 --> 0:18:54.550 Puffer, Sheila Oh my God. So anyway, I did it. 0:18:55.990 --> 0:19:1.870 Puffer, Sheila I managed to do it and the students were wonderful. I was, you know, a couple years older than the students. 0:19:3.350 --> 0:19:19.350 Puffer, Sheila And we made it through. All right. So after all of that, as I say, I was in the MBA programme part time and then that that Saturday morning, Professor Jabbas and and Professor Professor Nizelovic called me in. They said, you know, we've been thinking. 0:19:21.290 --> 0:19:22.290 Puffer, Sheila You have. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.90 Puffer, Sheila We think you should get a PhD in business. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:46.560 Puffer, Sheila I said, what's that? I've never heard that before. I was the first person in my family to go to university. My parents grew up on farms and my dad didn't even finish high school. So what? Anyway, I ended up going to the top. 0:19:50.630 --> 0:19:52.150 Puffer, Sheila University for my programme. 0:19:53.550 --> 0:19:58.670 Puffer, Sheila Which was the University of California, Berkeley, and it was all because of those two men. 0:20:0.310 --> 0:20:2.750 Puffer, Sheila Said that, that would be perfect for me to do. 0:20:4.420 --> 0:20:6.180 Puffer, Sheila So when you talk about feminism. 0:20:7.830 --> 0:20:14.590 Puffer, Sheila Somehow these various men along the way at the University of Ottawa, including my husband and those professors. 0:20:16.110 --> 0:20:17.550 Puffer, Sheila Saw my. 0:20:20.460 --> 0:20:23.740 Puffer, Sheila So my potential, they saw my talent, they saw my. 0:20:26.790 --> 0:20:27.230 Puffer, Sheila My. 0:20:30.770 --> 0:20:31.930 Puffer, Sheila Goal orientation. 0:20:33.390 --> 0:20:33.590 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:20:33.820 --> 0:20:38.20 Puffer, Sheila And they just did. They facilitated my. 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:48.40 Alex Bendall Wow. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:51.480 Puffer, Sheila My education and my career path and you know what I do today? I'm a professor of international business and sustainability at Northeastern University in Boston, and it's all thanks to them. 0:20:54.190 --> 0:20:59.950 Puffer, Sheila So that's one aspect of feminism. I was a great beneficiary of that era. 0:21:2.290 --> 0:21:13.970 Puffer, Sheila And secondly, I remember it was 1972, I believe that was designated as the year of the Woman. 0:21:15.690 --> 0:21:19.10 Puffer, Sheila In Canada, or maybe the United Nations, something. 0:21:20.690 --> 0:21:25.10 Puffer, Sheila So we had somebody you don't you've never heard of. Whose name is Betty Pruden? 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:33.920 Puffer, Sheila And she had written a book called The Feminine Mystique. She was an American from New York, I believe. 0:21:36.450 --> 0:21:47.90 Puffer, Sheila There were many activities through that year of the woman at the university. One of those, one of the most prominent ones, was when Betty Friedan came to campus. 0:21:48.450 --> 0:21:49.570 Puffer, Sheila And it was a sensation. 0:21:51.10 --> 0:22:1.570 Puffer, Sheila She was so famous with that book and my mom had read that book when it first came out in the 1960s, quite a lot before that. 0:22:3.90 --> 0:22:7.370 Puffer, Sheila So guess what? I invited my mom to come. 0:22:8.670 --> 0:22:18.750 Puffer, Sheila And so she took the bus from Montreal, where my family was living, and she stayed with me. And we went to Betty Friedan together. 0:22:20.690 --> 0:22:21.170 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.80 Puffer, Sheila Anna, that means so much to me, yeah. 0:22:24.980 --> 0:22:25.180 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:22:24.630 --> 0:22:28.710 Puffer, Sheila The fact that I remember seeing that book on my mom's night table. 0:22:31.290 --> 0:22:31.450 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:22:30.540 --> 0:22:36.100 Puffer, Sheila And she read that when it came up, yeah. OK. So I think we've covered feminism. 0:22:37.940 --> 0:22:39.820 Puffer, Sheila OK, what else have you got for me? 0:22:39.710 --> 0:22:40.70 Alex Bendall Alright. 0:22:44.300 --> 0:22:44.340 Alex Bendall N. 0:22:50.660 --> 0:22:51.260 Alex Bendall So. 0:22:52.820 --> 0:23:1.940 Alex Bendall This is more of a bigger deal in the United States, but the Vietnam War was going on then. What did the student body in Ottawa think about that? 0:23:8.990 --> 0:23:13.30 Alex Bendall What was the general perception from Canadian students of the Vietnam War? 0:23:18.420 --> 0:23:28.820 Puffer, Sheila You know, I actually went to two universities before I went to the University of Ottawa. I started out at Saint Mary's University in Halifax in 1969. 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:38.440 Puffer, Sheila And it was a male university with only 2000 students. It was the first year that they accepted women, and there were 200 women. 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:40.400 Alex Bendall All. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:41.480 Puffer, Sheila Among those men. 0:23:43.270 --> 0:23:46.990 Puffer, Sheila Were draft dodgers from the USA, I remember them? 0:23:48.420 --> 0:23:48.500 Alex Bendall Oh. 0:23:49.390 --> 0:23:49.590 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:53.370 Puffer, Sheila And so that was my introduction to. 0:23:54.690 --> 0:24:2.10 Puffer, Sheila That was that I was face to face with the Vietnam War there in 1969. Seventy in Halifax, right. 0:24:3.520 --> 0:24:7.800 Puffer, Sheila No draft dodgers came to Laurentian University in Sudbury that hadn't been discovered. 0:24:9.240 --> 0:24:12.760 Puffer, Sheila And I don't recall meeting any at the University of Ottawa either. 0:24:14.940 --> 0:24:25.620 Puffer, Sheila And you know, I wasn't particularly political. I was way into it. I was so deeply into international things, languages and different cultures. 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:26.640 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:24:26.940 --> 0:24:28.20 Puffer, Sheila I just remember. 0:24:29.740 --> 0:24:44.300 Puffer, Sheila Every week in Time magazine there were just horrendous photos of the Vietnam War. It seemed every week it was a horrible thing. But no, that not I wasn't out protesting. I wasn't. 0:24:45.890 --> 0:24:53.50 Puffer, Sheila Part of any groups involved in that, and I have no recollection of that at University of Ottawa. 0:24:58.250 --> 0:24:58.650 Puffer, Sheila No, I don't. 0:24:54.210 --> 0:25:0.10 Alex Bendall Like no recollection of any protests at all at EU at UOttawa. Oh OK, interesting. 0:24:59.790 --> 0:25:1.270 Puffer, Sheila They were but. 0:25:2.430 --> 0:25:4.310 Puffer, Sheila They were not part of my. 0:25:6.30 --> 0:25:9.590 Puffer, Sheila Memory bank. Yeah, 'cause. I didn't participate. Oh, yeah. 0:25:10.930 --> 0:25:11.450 Alex Bendall All right. 0:25:18.670 --> 0:25:18.830 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:25:21.50 --> 0:25:21.810 Alex Bendall OK so. 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:32.280 Alex Bendall My next question is that some youth culture voice from the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:39.360 Alex Bendall Again, you don't have to answer any question if you don't want to, but to what extent? Recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 0:25:40.850 --> 0:25:42.210 Puffer, Sheila Oh, I have no idea. 0:25:42.910 --> 0:25:43.430 Alex Bendall You know I do. 0:25:45.270 --> 0:25:45.950 Alex Bendall All right. 0:25:44.490 --> 0:25:46.290 Puffer, Sheila Wasn't into it, no. 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:49.160 Alex Bendall All right, moving on. 0:25:48.270 --> 0:25:51.190 Puffer, Sheila I wouldn't know. I wouldn't. I didn't know any students. 0:25:58.340 --> 0:25:58.780 Alex Bendall OK. 0:26:1.80 --> 0:26:1.400 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:25:52.900 --> 0:26:2.580 Puffer, Sheila Who took drugs or smoked weed or anything? I barely knew. It smelled like, you know, marijuana. No. 0:26:4.690 --> 0:26:6.570 Puffer, Sheila I was having way too much fun without that. 0:26:9.450 --> 0:26:9.610 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:26:10.690 --> 0:26:11.50 Alex Bendall All right. 0:26:16.100 --> 0:26:18.980 Alex Bendall I still have a few more, like feminism questions. 0:26:25.330 --> 0:26:25.610 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:26:21.270 --> 0:26:26.390 Puffer, Sheila Do you ask these of oh, you only have if you're only interviewing me. But men would be asked these questions too. 0:26:27.570 --> 0:26:27.890 Puffer, Sheila Right. 0:26:29.700 --> 0:26:31.900 Puffer, Sheila I wish my husband was to ask. 0:26:28.250 --> 0:26:36.490 Alex Bendall Yeah. Yeah, they would, yeah, they would. It's like a preset set of questions for everybody in my class. Yeah. All right. 0:26:38.270 --> 0:26:56.190 Alex Bendall So in your own words, I mean, you already kind of gave me your view on how feminism helped you. But like what in more broader terms, the like feminism overall in Canada, in your own words, how, like, what did it signify in Canada in the early 1970s? 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:4.200 Puffer, Sheila Well, I was working and going to the university at the same time and. 0:27:6.0 --> 0:27:6.320 Puffer, Sheila There was. 0:27:8.610 --> 0:27:18.290 Puffer, Sheila Federal government report, and it was called the and it was the Commission on the status of the woman, something like that or on the status of women. 0:27:20.100 --> 0:27:21.940 Puffer, Sheila And so I was aware of that. 0:27:23.270 --> 0:27:23.950 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:34.240 Puffer, Sheila It was a good thing because I thought it was a good thing because it was addressing issues. 0:27:36.0 --> 0:27:45.80 Puffer, Sheila That, that, that government Commission report, was it addressing issues about the role of women in society and how they? 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:57.720 Puffer, Sheila How inequalities in the workforce and access to education and childcare and so on could be addressed. 0:28:0.830 --> 0:28:0.990 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:28:4.560 --> 0:28:10.240 Puffer, Sheila I read the report, I don't think very many people knew many students did, but I did. 0:28:12.270 --> 0:28:16.990 Puffer, Sheila Then you know. I mean, look at where I've ended up in life, you know, I mean, I'm an academic. 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:18.160 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:28:18.540 --> 0:28:21.60 Puffer, Sheila I I read stuff I read, you know, boring stuff. 0:28:25.100 --> 0:28:25.420 Alex Bendall OK. 0:28:28.770 --> 0:28:33.810 Alex Bendall So, since gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:28:36.230 --> 0:28:43.270 Alex Bendall Did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or social events compared to male students? 0:28:47.690 --> 0:28:47.770 Puffer, Sheila Up. 0:28:59.470 --> 0:29:13.310 Puffer, Sheila Where I worked in the federal government, there was a lot of sexism and there was, you know, exploitation of women. I have a cute story, though, just in that we had an absolutely fantastic professor of Russian. 0:29:14.710 --> 0:29:15.70 Puffer, Sheila And. 0:29:17.150 --> 0:29:29.270 Puffer, Sheila He said to me one time he would just, you know, the custom in Russia, Ukraine, European countries in general is to call people by their last name. 0:29:30.460 --> 0:29:33.980 Puffer, Sheila So one night in Russian class. 0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:40.960 Puffer, Sheila Then he didn't hear me put the feminine ending on a verb. 0:29:51.890 --> 0:29:52.50 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:29:43.790 --> 0:29:56.750 Puffer, Sheila He's. And so I had. I had, but I guess I had sent it said it just kind of so he didn't hear it. It was not loud enough. And so he just said to me skirt puffer skirt. 0:30:6.140 --> 0:30:6.420 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:30:1.710 --> 0:30:8.670 Puffer, Sheila He wanted me to put that feminine ending because I was speaking and so I needed to add a feminine ending to the verb. 0:30:9.850 --> 0:30:12.370 Puffer, Sheila It was the cutest thing. We all laughed. 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:23.40 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:30:16.0 --> 0:30:31.400 Puffer, Sheila Oh, I, you know, I don't go looking for discrimination. I don't. I just. I just carry on and do what I want to try to accomplish what I want to accomplish. And as you can see. 0:30:33.570 --> 0:30:37.170 Puffer, Sheila For some, I think it's just my own demeanor. 0:30:39.300 --> 0:30:50.740 Puffer, Sheila People, men was mostly men. There were actually in my MBA class graduate classes. Sometimes I was the only woman in the class and I was the only. 0:30:51.990 --> 0:30:53.870 Puffer, Sheila English speaking person in the class. 0:30:55.510 --> 0:30:59.430 Puffer, Sheila Because I that you could take your courses in English or French. 0:31:15.910 --> 0:31:16.70 Alex Bendall Sure. 0:31:1.190 --> 0:31:24.350 Puffer, Sheila Most of them. And so I challenged myself to take them in French and said, why are these really nice young French male students and the professor? And they said, well, why are you, why don't you just take the English section? I said because I'm gonna learn French and I want to learn the terminology in French and I want the challenge of that so people could recognise that I was. I was a little different. 0:31:25.580 --> 0:31:25.820 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:31:30.910 --> 0:31:32.350 Puffer, Sheila Whereas in the workplace. 0:31:33.670 --> 0:31:37.30 Puffer, Sheila In the early 70s, I worked for the Director of personnel. 0:31:39.30 --> 0:31:40.70 Puffer, Sheila I won't say where. 0:31:42.710 --> 0:31:44.510 Puffer, Sheila And he introduced me. 0:31:46.350 --> 0:31:48.350 Puffer, Sheila I know this is hard for you to imagine but think of. 0:31:49.540 --> 0:32:0.900 Puffer, Sheila You know, be your age and not the age I am now. And it was at the age of very short skirts and you know, miniskirts and all that. 0:32:2.220 --> 0:32:13.140 Puffer, Sheila Which was kind of weird. Well, in a sense. Oh, and then it was the burning of the bras. I remember that too, was at that time I was there. Yeah. So a lot of bras. 0:32:15.180 --> 0:32:28.900 Puffer, Sheila Were eliminated. They were? Yeah. And, you know, there weren't any such things as sports bras, which, you know, are a lot more comfortable. So anyway, this boss, somebody came in new to the office, a visitor. 0:32:29.610 --> 0:32:31.330 Puffer, Sheila And my boss. 0:32:32.810 --> 0:32:35.610 Puffer, Sheila I was his assistant. I was not his secretary. I was. 0:32:37.250 --> 0:32:38.690 Puffer, Sheila An administrative level and. 0:32:40.430 --> 0:32:53.550 Puffer, Sheila You know that first rung in the hierarchy and he introduced me to another man there. And he said, oh, and this is Sheila blah blah, let's get my little title. Am I get my title? And then he said, oh, she's cute and clever too. 0:32:57.860 --> 0:33:18.140 Puffer, Sheila I went home. I was married. I I went home and I told my husband 'cause, I got married very young and I could you imagine this is what he said. And we laughed about that for years. And my husband would say to me just for fun sometimes, you know, like 40 years old, he's like, you know what? You're cute and clever too. 0:33:21.810 --> 0:33:22.450 Alex Bendall That's awesome. 0:33:26.690 --> 0:33:27.130 Alex Bendall Alright. 0:33:28.890 --> 0:33:35.330 Alex Bendall What kind of programmes or departments or clubs where women are less accepted? 0:33:36.670 --> 0:33:37.470 Alex Bendall From your experience. 0:33:38.290 --> 0:33:41.10 Puffer, Sheila I don't know. I don't really. I didn't really join any clubs. 0:33:41.910 --> 0:33:42.230 Alex Bendall Oh, OK. 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:48.400 Puffer, Sheila I just ran them. You know, I ran the Slavianski Bazaar club with my husband. 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:50.960 Puffer, Sheila And the professor. 0:33:54.40 --> 0:33:55.0 Puffer, Sheila That was pretty equal. 0:33:56.420 --> 0:34:1.420 Alex Bendall Did you get a lot of people in that club over the course of how long you? However long you ran it? 0:34:1.900 --> 0:34:3.420 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we had it for a few years. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:6.390 Puffer, Sheila We had a couple dozen. 0:34:7.280 --> 0:34:27.520 Puffer, Sheila And again, you know, my husband was like me, only he had more. The advantage of being male. But he was so interested in different languages and cultures. That's obviously why we, you know, a big a big reason why we connect it anyway. 0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:30.320 Puffer, Sheila He and I. 0:34:31.240 --> 0:34:31.680 Puffer, Sheila Or the. 0:34:33.220 --> 0:34:36.180 Puffer, Sheila Well, let me see. I think there were two other. 0:34:38.90 --> 0:34:40.610 Puffer, Sheila Non Slavic people in the club. 0:34:41.650 --> 0:34:52.410 Puffer, Sheila And so the people who took Slavic studies courses who took Russian, these people had emigrated from the Czech Republic. They had because in 1960. 0:34:53.930 --> 0:35:6.10 Puffer, Sheila Nine, I think it was, there was the Velvet Revolution in the Czech Republic in what was it called then? Yeah. And. And so people emigrated. And then it wanted easy credit. 0:35:7.860 --> 0:35:11.500 Puffer, Sheila It's an easy course. We called it bird courses. I don't. What do you call them now? 0:35:13.370 --> 0:35:14.570 Alex Bendall Fluffy courses. 0:35:16.100 --> 0:35:16.260 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:35:21.80 --> 0:35:21.480 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:35:14.820 --> 0:35:21.500 Puffer, Sheila OK. And so they wanted those and they were forced to learn Russian growing up in, in, in the Czech Republic. 0:35:22.980 --> 0:35:23.620 Puffer, Sheila And so. 0:35:25.420 --> 0:35:51.540 Puffer, Sheila You know, they spoke. They didn't speak very good Russian 'cause they Czech and Russian or they have a lot in common, but they have a lot of place things where you can really mess up if you're just lazy and don't don't seriously speak the language. So the point was, oh, I don't know. I shouldn't say that I maybe they were about four or five English speaking people or a couple of French speaking people. 0:35:52.20 --> 0:36:8.180 Puffer, Sheila Remember them now denigrate Francois Nadeau? Yep. And that's right. And then we had Bernard Julian, who was from Britain and we had and then we had Rick, Rick Pinchuk and he was a Ukrainian refugee. 0:36:9.500 --> 0:36:12.580 Puffer, Sheila So again it was. 0:36:13.940 --> 0:36:20.580 Puffer, Sheila That club was mostly populated by non Canadians, non-native born Canadians. 0:36:21.270 --> 0:36:23.70 Puffer, Sheila And we like that my husband. 0:36:26.50 --> 0:36:26.210 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:36:29.240 --> 0:36:36.520 Alex Bendall All right. So my next section is the section about generational differences and. 0:36:39.90 --> 0:36:47.210 Alex Bendall So to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions like gender, family dating, et cetera were outdated? 0:37:3.970 --> 0:37:4.210 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:37:1.0 --> 0:37:4.920 Puffer, Sheila That's the same values as our parents. And when it came to God. 0:37:7.500 --> 0:37:13.940 Alex Bendall Like you, you specifically or just. Did you feel like that was the case for your whole generation? 0:37:16.150 --> 0:37:23.270 Puffer, Sheila To what extent did we accept or challenge our parents? 0:37:24.690 --> 0:37:29.250 Puffer, Sheila Views on dating and gender gender differences like. 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:36.560 Puffer, Sheila Hmm. Didn't know. Not nothing really. 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:42.920 Puffer, Sheila And my husband and I had again sought out unusual people. 0:37:44.240 --> 0:37:47.400 Puffer, Sheila On the campus? Yeah, you're getting the idea. And so. 0:37:49.40 --> 0:37:50.80 Puffer, Sheila There, you know, we found. 0:37:52.100 --> 0:37:53.180 Puffer, Sheila My husband and I were so. 0:37:55.810 --> 0:37:57.530 Puffer, Sheila We were so happy together. 0:37:59.40 --> 0:38:3.360 Puffer, Sheila And we're so curious about people who are a little different. 0:38:4.790 --> 0:38:8.430 Puffer, Sheila That we became friends with single people. 0:38:9.710 --> 0:38:11.150 Puffer, Sheila And we would take them. 0:38:12.470 --> 0:38:28.990 Puffer, Sheila You know on drives and you know, we just hang out with us or whatever. And we had some male ones and we had some female ones. We had some couples. But you know, I know my, my husband said, you know, I think X is probably gay. 0:38:30.190 --> 0:38:35.550 Puffer, Sheila And you know, and this other one, you know, and why is likely? 0:38:37.70 --> 0:38:38.110 Puffer, Sheila To be if you know. 0:38:39.950 --> 0:38:40.390 Puffer, Sheila Lesbian. 0:38:42.370 --> 0:38:48.170 Puffer, Sheila And but we never asked them and we never did. We just were friends with them. 0:38:49.930 --> 0:38:54.90 Puffer, Sheila But they didn't. They weren't people who had boyfriends, girlfriends or anything. 0:38:55.890 --> 0:38:59.610 Puffer, Sheila But we just found them really interesting and they became our friends. 0:39:0.360 --> 0:39:1.120 Alex Bendall Make sense? Yeah. 0:39:3.480 --> 0:39:6.200 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about that stuff. 0:39:9.30 --> 0:39:9.390 Alex Bendall OK. 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:13.840 Alex Bendall As a follow up, did you feel? 0:39:15.490 --> 0:39:28.170 Alex Bendall That the political system in Canada was like democratic, fair enough, responsive to the citizens needs or to like your generation's needs, do you think? 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:30.120 Alex Bendall Yeah. OK. 0:39:30.980 --> 0:39:32.420 Puffer, Sheila Very, very, very liberal. 0:39:45.250 --> 0:39:45.570 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:53.120 Puffer, Sheila Pierre Trudeau was Prime minister's he was the Prime Minister and he put in the whole bilingualism programme, he put he he was just. I thought it was exceptional. Yeah. And I thought he really transformed society. 0:39:54.170 --> 0:39:55.970 Alex Bendall Yes, definitely. 0:39:56.510 --> 0:40:3.510 Puffer, Sheila Not just bilingualism, but as I said, the Commission on the Status, oh, that's what it was called, the Commission on the status of women. 0:40:5.750 --> 0:40:8.350 Puffer, Sheila And help pull that out from 50 years ago. 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:10.400 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:40:15.365 --> 0:40:20.445 Puffer, Sheila I love living in Ottawa. I just loved it. It was bilingual. You had all these. 0:40:21.835 --> 0:40:39.835 Puffer, Sheila International restaurants, because diplomats were there from different parts of the world. So oh, my husband. And we go to African restaurants, we go to, you know, Greek restaurants. And when Greek food wasn't that widespread, you get the idea. It really was. It was a really wonderful place too. 0:40:41.635 --> 0:40:43.955 Puffer, Sheila To be interested in international things. 0:40:44.485 --> 0:41:0.845 Alex Bendall Yeah. I guess with you being so interested in other cultures from around the world, it makes sense that you would like Pierre Trudeau so much, him being such a big part in, like creating Canada into a multicultural society, right? 0:41:1.315 --> 0:41:1.755 Puffer, Sheila Yes. 0:41:2.365 --> 0:41:2.605 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:41:3.295 --> 0:41:4.255 Puffer, Sheila And actually. 0:41:6.235 --> 0:41:8.75 Puffer, Sheila While I was going to the university. 0:41:9.895 --> 0:41:18.575 Puffer, Sheila One of the early jobs that I had after I was the administrative assistant to that Director of personnel, then I became a Bilingualism Officer. 0:41:21.155 --> 0:41:29.995 Puffer, Sheila At the National Capital Commission it was just awesome because I tested people for their level of bilingualism. I gave them oral and written tests. 0:41:31.445 --> 0:41:32.925 Puffer, Sheila And I have the cutest story. 0:41:34.485 --> 0:41:38.125 Puffer, Sheila Again, I know, I was 20 years old. What do you know when you're 20? 0:41:40.725 --> 0:41:45.205 Puffer, Sheila So I I went, I had this park. 0:41:46.675 --> 0:42:7.235 Puffer, Sheila You know the people who took care of the gate and there were a lot. They mowed the lawns and so on and so forth. But they needed to be bilingual when tourists would come by or, you know, visitors to the park would come by and they were all French speaking. And I was testing them in and they had very little education. 0:42:8.395 --> 0:42:15.595 Puffer, Sheila You know, they might have had a 6th or 8th grade education. They were the nicest people and they had worked there for years and years. 0:42:17.195 --> 0:42:28.315 Puffer, Sheila I tested so I had my tape recorder. Big big tape recorder like this and I thought that I tested them with and. These are men, you know, in their 50s. 0:42:29.715 --> 0:42:30.995 Puffer, Sheila And here I am, 20. 0:42:33.75 --> 0:42:41.555 Puffer, Sheila I start a, oh, a written test and one of the gentlemen as they all sit there and they go, oh whoa. Kind of dear in the headlights. 0:42:42.245 --> 0:42:52.525 Puffer, Sheila And then one gentleman, he, he. They're all wearing their park uniforms and everything. They're all very clean and well groomed and. 0:42:53.265 --> 0:42:57.265 Puffer, Sheila One man said, oh, excuse me one man wise. 0:43:0.235 --> 0:43:6.675 Puffer, Sheila And then I forgot my glasses. I'm sorry, miss. Can't take the written exam in English. 0:43:8.75 --> 0:43:13.755 Puffer, Sheila It was what he was referring to, and then another person said, Oh well, see, do you believe me? 0:43:16.385 --> 0:43:16.545 Alex Bendall OK. 0:43:16.875 --> 0:43:20.395 Puffer, Sheila And it took me a moment and realized, OK, we're not doing. 0:43:29.605 --> 0:43:29.925 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:43:23.915 --> 0:43:31.275 Puffer, Sheila They didn't need to really write in English anyway. It was just communicating verbally with the park visitors. 0:43:32.195 --> 0:43:40.595 Puffer, Sheila So I mean, I had the most wonderful time with the bilingualism programme that Prime Minister Trudeau implemented. I met the most wonderful people. 0:43:42.45 --> 0:43:42.565 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:43:44.315 --> 0:43:45.595 Puffer, Sheila And I have great respect for them. 0:43:51.185 --> 0:43:53.505 Alex Bendall All right. Well, I have one final. 0:43:55.425 --> 0:44:13.905 Alex Bendall Section here before we end this interview, and so cultural historians have argued that the introduction of birth control, pill legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free ideology change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? 0:44:16.945 --> 0:44:19.945 Puffer, Sheila You broke up a little bit there, Alex. Please repeat the question. 0:44:21.735 --> 0:44:37.375 Alex Bendall Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:44:38.675 --> 0:44:44.675 Alex Bendall It's like, do you agree with that statement and what did the dating scene look like at UOttawa during the 1970s? 0:44:46.75 --> 0:44:47.835 Puffer, Sheila Yes, it changed dating practices. 0:44:49.215 --> 0:44:52.175 Puffer, Sheila I think women felt a lot, a lot more in control. 0:44:53.385 --> 0:44:53.705 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:44:53.445 --> 0:44:56.885 Puffer, Sheila And there was more sexual freedom as a result of that. 0:44:58.615 --> 0:45:4.135 Puffer, Sheila And then I had another. Oh. And then, of course, I met my husband as soon as I came on campus. 0:45:6.175 --> 0:45:6.255 Puffer, Sheila Uh. 0:45:28.425 --> 0:45:28.665 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:45:7.115 --> 0:45:34.75 Puffer, Sheila Within. Ah, well, I started in, you know, September and I met him on January 5th, 1974. So I only had one semester of just going on dates. Right. And then I met my husband and that was it. So yeah, I'm not a good representative of dating for, you know, for my four years of college. 0:45:35.435 --> 0:45:36.315 Puffer, Sheila Dating other people. 0:45:37.315 --> 0:45:38.235 Alex Bendall That makes sense, yeah. 0:45:41.595 --> 0:45:43.835 Alex Bendall All right, well. 0:45:43.875 --> 0:45:47.635 Alex Bendall That's really all I have for the questions that I have written down here. 0:45:48.975 --> 0:45:51.375 Alex Bendall Is there anything else you'd like to talk about or say? 0:45:51.625 --> 0:45:56.825 Puffer, Sheila Oh, that's so nice of you. No, but I'll just tell you one very, very nice thing. 0:45:58.305 --> 0:46:13.945 Puffer, Sheila Not as Nice as some of the other things I've told you, but I've lived in Boston here for a long time. I've lived in the United States since I got. Well, I came here for my PhD. Thanks to those two professors. All right, Jacques and Michel and my husband. 0:46:16.345 --> 0:46:21.865 Puffer, Sheila And so living in Boston, Gosh, I played in a rock band. 0:46:24.895 --> 0:46:25.455 Alex Bendall Really. 0:46:22.725 --> 0:46:27.685 Puffer, Sheila For fun for 20 years and yeah, just every Friday night we'd play. 0:46:35.935 --> 0:46:36.95 Alex Bendall OK. 0:46:29.485 --> 0:46:37.605 Puffer, Sheila And and you know, we had young kids, all of us. We were in her 40s when we started. So it's a long time ago, right and. 0:46:39.805 --> 0:46:53.645 Puffer, Sheila 40S and so anyway, one night there was a new man who was a neighbor of one of the drummer and his wife, who was a singer. So this man is he. 0:46:54.685 --> 0:46:57.925 Puffer, Sheila Kept showing up and he played a really nice bass guitar. 0:47:0.85 --> 0:47:24.485 Puffer, Sheila And then after a couple weeks, I I learned that he was from Ottawa. Oh, really? OK. Turns out he and his wife went to Ottawa U at exactly the same time as undergraduates as my husband and myself. But we were up on Laurie Ave in the art arts and Business School. 0:47:24.985 --> 0:47:36.145 Puffer, Sheila And they were in biology down the hill. We never met them while we were at Ottawa and then Fast forward 25 years or something. And we met them in Boston. They were playing in a rock band together. 0:47:38.485 --> 0:47:39.285 Alex Bendall That's crazy. 0:47:56.165 --> 0:47:56.285 Alex Bendall Hi. 0:47:41.835 --> 0:47:56.435 Puffer, Sheila And the rock band kind of dissolved during COVID. But we kept it together for 20 years, and I'm still friends with them. And they moved back to Ottawa about a number of years ago. So still friends. It's great. 0:47:57.415 --> 0:47:57.735 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:47:57.745 --> 0:47:58.945 Alex Bendall What was your rock band called? 0:48:0.195 --> 0:48:1.315 Puffer, Sheila Off the record. 0:48:2.385 --> 0:48:3.185 Alex Bendall Off the record. 0:48:3.465 --> 0:48:12.225 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we played all these rock, all these rock tunes which we knew as originals when we were growing up. 0:48:13.365 --> 0:48:14.445 Puffer, Sheila When we were teenagers, yeah. 0:48:15.305 --> 0:48:15.585 Alex Bendall Yeah. 0:48:15.985 --> 0:48:17.905 Puffer, Sheila Yeah, we opened Eagles and we played. 0:48:19.605 --> 0:48:23.805 Puffer, Sheila Oh, we, of course. The Eagles and Rolling Stones and yeah. 0:48:25.85 --> 0:48:28.245 Alex Bendall That's my favorite genre of music right there. That's what I listen to all the time. 0:48:28.845 --> 0:48:33.725 Puffer, Sheila Really. Oh yeah, we loved it, but we, you know, we were the screaming fans back in the day. 0:48:37.275 --> 0:48:42.915 Puffer, Sheila OK, really fun. I will. I would love to have the recording place. 0:48:43.885 --> 0:48:46.85 Alex Bendall Absolutely no problem. 0:48:45.175 --> 0:48:47.935 Puffer, Sheila OK so I am going to a comedy show now. 0:48:49.745 --> 0:48:50.625 Alex Bendall Which comedy show? 0:48:51.115 --> 0:49:5.995 Puffer, Sheila Well, it's an improv show, and I took an 8 week improv class this summer here in Boston. And so now I'm gonna go, which was a blast, really, really fun. So I'm gonna go and see the professionals do it. 0:49:7.65 --> 0:49:7.545 Alex Bendall Nice. 0:49:7.955 --> 0:49:8.115 Puffer, Sheila Yeah. 0:49:8.695 --> 0:49:9.455 Alex Bendall Well, have fun. 0:49:9.745 --> 0:49:16.625 Puffer, Sheila Thanks a lot. Alex, this is fun and yeah, I'll enjoy receiving the recording and the transcript and. 0:49:26.325 --> 0:49:26.765 Alex Bendall All right. 0:49:18.145 --> 0:49:34.385 Puffer, Sheila I will sign that form, but don't worry. It's perfectly fine. You can see I enjoyed myself and I had. I had really wonderful memories. Yeah. Oh, what I didn't tell you my husband's name, for heaven's sake. Because he graduated there. He got a master's in Slavic studies and a PhD in Slavic studies. 0:49:36.225 --> 0:49:40.545 Puffer, Sheila And his name is Hugh Fraser. Fraser. Hugh Hugh. 0:49:41.225 --> 0:49:42.785 Puffer, Sheila Fraser, Fr. A SE R. 0:49:43.985 --> 0:49:45.585 Alex Bendall Alright, thank you. 0:49:44.965 --> 0:49:52.365 Puffer, Sheila There you go. I needed to get that in there. 'cause. He's not around. To be interviewed for the 70s, but he was there, I can guarantee. 0:49:53.165 --> 0:49:53.565 Alex Bendall All right. 0:49:55.55 --> 0:49:57.55 Alex Bendall Well, thank you very much. You too. 0:49:54.695 --> 0:49:58.975 Puffer, Sheila Take care, al. Alright. Have fun. Right. Bye bye bye. 0:49:59.995 --> 0:50:0.235 Alex Bendall Aye. Birthplace Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Schools Attended St. Mary's University Laurentian University University of Ottawa University of California, Berkeley Plekhanov Institute of the National Economy Degree BA Professional degree PhD Career education Occupation University Distinguished Professor of International Business Biographical Text Administrator, Government of Canada Assistant Professor of Management, State University of New York at Buffalo University Distinguished Professor of International Business, Northeastern University Ethnicity chose not to respond Religious Culture Other Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Puffer, Sheila Description An account of the resource Interview about the subject's time at the University of Ottawa in the 1970's. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-22 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history University of Ottawa, Campus Life, Canadian History, Feminism, 1970s, Pop Culture Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Koyanagi, Joshua Location The location of the interview Tucson, Arizona, United States (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Hans Joshua Koyanagi: “Testing. Testing. OK, hello. And you.” Klaudt: “Good morning.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Hi, how are you?” Hans Klaudt: “I must be on mute.” Joshua Koyanagi: “I can hear you, can you hear me.” Hans Klaudt: “I can't hear you. Hang on.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, maybe your volume. Can you hear me now?” Hans Klaudt: “Umm. This is strange.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Can you hear me now?” Hans Klaudt: “Can you hear me?” Hans Klaudt: “I can yes.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Sorry about that That's my fault. Yeah, I can hear you. OK, cool.” Hans Klaudt: “Can you hear me alright, alright.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So how are you, Hans?” Hans Klaudt: “I'm well. How are you, Joshua?” Joshua Koyanagi: “I'm great. This is a cool opportunity for me. I'm looking forward to it before we start, I just wanna reiterate completely voluntary. Umm, like to thank you a lot for your participation. And just as you already know, you signed the waiver. This will be like archives and all that stuff.” Hans Klaudt: “Yep. Sure.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, so I just want to ask some warm up questions before we get into the actual interview questions.” Hans Klaudt: “Sure.” Joshua Koyanagi: “What year were you born?” Hans Klaudt: “1949.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. Joshua Koyanagi: “And where were you born?” Hans Klaudt: “In Bonn, Germany.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Cool, cool. So when did you, uh, immigrate to Canada?” Hans Klaudt: “I was seven, my parents came over my sister and I.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So then where did you grow up in Canada?” Hans Klaudti: Mostly in Montreal, but yeah, that's where we.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK Ohh in like in English? Well, German speaking, but did you do schooling in French or English?” Hans Klaudt: “In English, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “English OK.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, so before we start the interview, I was wondering if I could play you a song. Pop popular song from the s to get you back in time. That'll be cool with you, OK.” Hans Klaudt: “Go forward, see like can remember.” Joshua Koyanagi: “We'll see. Can you see my screen?” Hans Klaudt: “Yes, I can.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yes, OK. Here it is, remember this song.” Hans Klaudt: “I do.” Hans Klaudt: “Very well.” Joshua Koyanagi: “According to my research, that was my favorite song from that time, so that's why I played it.” Hans Klaudt: “Great. It was a great song.” Joshua Koyanagi: “From what I listened to.” Hans Klaudt: “It is a great song.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So we'll start the interview. Uh main questions now.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we want a better understand how anglophones and francophones are related together so we're less electronics in Canadian society during the 70s, obviously. So how was your free time structured and what did you? What did uOttawa students do for fun? And the70s.” Hans Klaudt: “Oh dear. Uh, well, during you know, on days when we were in school or when where we in at the university, we always thought you have some of the hours were spent in class on the other the other hours we had a lot of time in between. So I remember. Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. Cool.” Hans Klaudt: “Playing a lot of cards, we used to play a lot of hearts, particularly in that little little little little amounts of money, but that that was a lot of our sort of daytime free time, not weekend free time. A lot of us hung out at a pub downtown called The Albion and I don't remember exactly where it was, but it was down. It was down towards Rideau Street, but not at Rideau. It was sort of a block or so back. Hans Klaudt: “You go down Nicholas, and turn right. But in any event, we drank a lot of beer.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Cool.” Hans Klaudt: “Uh yeah. That was sort of my in my, you know, I spent two years in the. Science faculty. And then I was going to do. I was in an honors biology or with an honors biology program with a four year program, and at some point in my in my digress a little bit, but I'll bring it back in the second at some point in the year the the medical school sent out. Uh, basically, a notice saying that they were interested in at getting applications from less than typical, you know, mainstream students. I had started at the University of Ottawa as a as a mature student I I started my first year at age and I got in as a mature student. I never finished grade 13, so I on a whim, I said, well, why not? My grades were good and so I I got accepted. So when I got into medical school, which was about my third year at the University of Ottawa, Life changed a little bit, you know, but those two first.” Joshua Koyanagi: “More serious.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, busier.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Umm, I could imagine.” Hans Klaudt: “A lot busier, yes, I think so. Yeah, academically. A lot busier, sort of more less free time for sure. Excuse me and. So and also we became more uh, should I say, you know, it's a smaller group. They're people, I think in our class as opposed to a much larger hundred or so in the in the science faculty and biology and those under those initial intro courses that we took as part of an A biology program. So, but we still drank a lot of beer, but it was only mainly on Fridays.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “We had a TGIF in the basement. Uh, yeah. So the that was free time. I I didn't have a lot of money, which is why it was a mature student. I'd quit school. I quit high school, went to work for a while, came back, back and forth, and I still didn't have a lot of money. So I spent part of my weekend's working and that took up quite a bit of time, but.” Joshua Koyanagi: “And and where would you hang out? Like on campus in the library or Umm Student center?” Hans Klaudt: “Well and yeah, and the library to study for sure, particularly once I got into medicine.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “You know, we had our own library at that time. You may not be aware of it, but the Faculty of Medicine was was an in an older building on on Nicholas Street. Uh, it would be.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Ah, not on the main campus.” Hans Klaudt: “Well, that was that was part of the main campus it so it it wasn't where they Faculty of Medicine is now out in out of my throat, right where the Ottawa general is and the Children's Hospital is all of that complex. Wasn't there at that time.” Hans Klaudt: “So we were more sort of centered still, I mean our activities and I lived with a bunch of guys with four other guys at the corner of the Wilbrod and King Edward.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “There was a a 2 story building and we rented an apartment there. So we basically hung out downtown on our free time when we had free time, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure. Uh, did you attend any live music events during your university years?” Hans Klaudt: “I was trying to think back. No, I don't think so.” Joshua Koyanagi: “No.” Hans Klaudt: “No, not that I can remember, no.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “No, I'm going to say no.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So OK, and as a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated was uottawa during the 70s? And did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same like classes or clubs?” Hans Klaudt: “I don't know about clubs. Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure.” Hans Klaudt: “I I didn't have enough time to enter clubs, but in terms of classes we we had we had a number of francophones. I I can't. I wouldn't be able to say what percentage of our classes were francophones, but what? What percentage of our class were francophones? But I certainly knew a number of them. Uh, the classes were all in English at that time. As a student at the University of Ottawa, we had to. We had to prove that we were at least functionally bilingual and either passed an exam which was a a written and oral exam, and I spoke enough French.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “I spent some time in Eastern Ontario, which you may or may not know was had a a large French Canadian population working on farms there, and I I I picked up French and I had picked up some French living in Montreal, although interestingly, you know, if you were in Anglophone, you didn't have to speak French in Montreal in the 600s and early 70s, so.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. OK, so did you ever know of any inter, like, Francophone, anglophone relationships, like dating in the 1970s?” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So wouldn't have been like unheard of or anything.” Hans Klaudt: “No, no. There was like gal. I went out with briefly who was a francophone.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, cool.” Hans Klaudt: “But we didn't speak French, only we spoke English.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. Uh, so you kind of partially answered already, but we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. And how would you describe the party culture of you, Ottawa during the 1970s?” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh, I think there were way more opportunities than than healthy. How about that?” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “There was a lot going on. A mainly on weekends, you know, Friday night.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “So there was always something going on somewhere. There were other folks who and that this is also when I was in in medicine, there were folks who rented in homes, you know, they would rent an apartment, much like we did. And Friday evenings would have folks over. We had used to have folks over Friday evenings, you know, and hang out sometimes on Saturdays as well. Sundays were usually a little quieter.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, definitely.” Hans Klaudt: “You try to pick up or catch up on your your, your reading and so forth. Yeah. But I would say it was pretty active.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Ohh. Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Umm, mainly surrounding drinking, you know black going on, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So that's kind of like out of left field, but what did the student body think of the Vietnam War?” Hans Klaudt: “I don't know that I can say that the group I hung out was thought it was a terrible thing. Ohh, it was an awful thing. It should never have happened. Nobody was interested. Nobody from the group that I knew was interested in volunteering.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, that's kind of a random thing to be interested in for a Canadian, so yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, there were some Canadians that went over, but I why? I don't know, so I I certainly wasn't. I I certainly wasn't part of that crowd. I was. I've always been very sort of anti war. There's gotta be better ways to deal with issues, but umm, yeah, so the again, the group that I hung out with. But again, understand, you know it's it's people, you know, birds of a feather flock together that kind of idea.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “So we were, I think the majority of us were were politically pretty liberal or, you know, even progressive.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure.” Hans Klaudt: “If I can use that term.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. So uh, during the s, like lots of rock'n'roll artists were promoting like different types of protest. Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious, or just the form of popular music?” Hans Klaudt: “That this thought is they saw they didn't see it as a form of protest. They saw it as awful music.” Hans Klaudt: “Well, how can you?” Joshua Koyanagi: “Awful music.” Hans Klaudt: “How can you listen to that stuff?” Joshua Koyanagi: “Cool. Cool.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So like, they didn't see it as having like a like like necessarily like umm. Like corrupting the youth? Kind of thing. Just just bad.” Hans Klaudt: “Bad music, bad music. From the perspective of, they would have rather listened to stuff that you know they grew up with in the 30s and 40s. Uh.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, yeah, sure.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah. And my and my parents were fairly. Ohh, I'm gonna say my particularly my mother and my mother was probably the the more of a the major influence in our household in terms of our outlook on things and whatnot. Hans Klaudt: “My father could be a little. Conservative at times I would say. Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure. Hans Klaudt: “But my mother was anything but. What but and again, you know, you're talking about both my parents were teenagers during the Second World War. They were teenagers in Germany and the Second World War, so that's certainly colors. Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Their views colored their views and but no, I don't. My my parents, my and my mother was more interested in music than my father was.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Hmm, OK.” Hans Klaudt: “My mother played piano and she played, believe it or not, played accordion and she had a if you had an interest in music, she just didn't like rock'n'roll, by and large, you know, and she thought it wasn't great music, but.” Joshua Koyanagi: “And during the 1970s, like some youth culture, voices promoted taking recreational drugs. So to what extent were recreational drugs is available on campus during the 1970s?” Hans Klaudt: “There was a.” Joshua Koyanagi: “To your knowledge, like talking like marijuana or psychedelics.” Hans Klaudt: “There, there was a lot of marijuana available. That was very rare that people were that you would find that you'd go to a party where people weren't smoking dope. Uh, I think there was a little bit of LSD around. I don't think there was any cocaine around. I'm not aware of any. You know, heroin being of a, you know, and and fentanyl wasn't an issue back then and prescription narcotics wasn't an issue back then. So it was mainly hallucinogens. And and marijuana, I would say. And it was certainly in the crowd that I hung out with. I don't think there was anyone who didn't smoke.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. OK, so how like how to what extent would you say like students use hallucinogens? Like if you had to like, say, a percentage of the student population. Hmm.” Hans Klaudt: “The crowd I hung out with there might have been, you know, and I'm gonna say maybe people that I knew relatively well because we wouldn't end up in places together that might have been one or two.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, OK. So next main question. So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call a second wave feminism that, as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early s start to breakdown gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the 70s?” Hans Klaudt: “I I would say yes, I would say yes. Uh, excuse me for one second.” Joshua Koyanagi: “All good.” Hans Klaudt: “UM. Can I take this for a second? This is very important.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, go ahead.” Hans Klaudt: “Very.” Hans Klaudt: “I'm sorry, I didn't expect this to happen.” Joshua Koyanagi: “That's alright.” *Hans goes off to take the phonecall* Hans Klaudt: “Sorry about that.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So that's OK.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Feminism was, that was that. Was that a thing? I I'm. There were certainly a number and I and again most of the sort of most of my recollection around the university was a Fort, my four years of medical school, more so than the first couple of years. I I think that's a little sounds on. It's almost a little bit amorphous, but we had a number of women in our class. It wasn't yet 50-50, but I I think somewhere probably between 25 and 30% and I knew a good number of them, some of them more closely than others. Uh, I think they were pretty assertive. They were not wallflowers, they. You know, I think they socially moved around pretty comfortably. I don't know what else to say. I I don't know that we had a lot of conversations around where things were going. I think everybody, most people were happy that the pill was available. You know, that kind of thing.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure. And in your own words, like what? What did feminism signify in Canada during the 70s? Your your time.” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh I think. Women starting to and I I I think it was starting my that was sort of my impression women starting to take on a a role on an equal footing with men their opinions were valued as opposed to having to be in the background. There was an understanding that women could become professionals beyond just secretaries and nurses and teachers. Ohm, I think there was a part of the again, the pill was interesting because I think that the sexual revolution that started in the 60s, late 60s, I spilled over continued into the 70s. I think that was going on Ohh as well and that's how I experienced it.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. Do you think like? Do you think being a woman resulted in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or social events compared to male students back then?” Hans Klaudt: “Hmm, that's really interesting question. Umm. I I'm not sure we had a a couple of the most of the women in in in our class as I remember them and there were several that stand out in that regard, did very, very well academically. No, it was not unusual for the top three of students in our class to of of the top three or top five. The majority would be women of the top five. Three of them would have been women, or maybe even four. Ohh the top three. We're two of them and I I'm not sure whether there were different expectations placed on them or whether they were just there to prove something.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, that was going to be my question. So do you think there could have been like a a sense of having to prove themselves?” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah. Yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Uh do well academically.” Hans Klaudt: “And that's certainly I can I can speak for what happened after graduation, when it was time to find a position as an intern and more importantly, as a resident in certain specialties.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “And that became more of a more of an issue than, for example, the one of the women that I in our class, became the first female orthopedic surgeon in the country.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Wow, that's cool.” Hans Klaudt: “There was another woman in our country who became the first cardiothoracic to open heart surgeon in the country. That was another one who became the first urologist in the country. Female uh, you know, so. And talking with them, I had some contact with them after graduation as we were going through our postgraduate program. It was not easy for them. So there was certainly push back. They were getting into a different crowd at that point, you know, they were getting into the people who were controlling these positions were were folks who were a generation older and that and that was certainly felt.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So you would say at school it was like more progressive than like the real world.” Hans Klaudt: “Yes.” Joshua Koyanagi: “It was a yeah, OK.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, yes.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Uh in the s, where there uOttawa programs, departments are clubs where women were less present or more present. Like, what would you say was more woman dominated or or less uh woman dominated.” Hans Klaudt: “We'll certainly nursing, certainly nursing.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Well, yeah, of course.” Hans Klaudt: “It was very unusual to at that point at that time to see a man in in, in nursing which is not at all unusual now, interestingly.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Umm.” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh no, I don't know. I I I I I don't know. There were certainly at that time.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. No, I don't. Hans Klaudt: “I don't think there was a split in my undergraduate nor in in in in medical school. It certainly hadn't reached that point yet.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Was there any I wouldn't be able to say? You know, was it in law or engineering or architecture or what have you?” Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure.” Hans Klaudt: “Or were there particularly less women? I don't know. I can't answer that.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “I that's what.” Joshua Koyanagi: “And historians have written a lot about what they call, like the countercultural revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents. Generation. So to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just and better world?” Hans Klaudt: “Umm. Do I don't know. I can't for a more, I think that again, the group that I hung out with, I think we we were all pretty liberal so that that would go along with that greater. Equality and social justice. Most of us voted for Pierre Trudeau. Who talked about social justice? I mean, that was one of his big. Programs, if you will, and often spoke about so. Uh. But I I don't think I I'm not aware of any sort of large mobilizations of people. Certainly not in the group that I hung out with, and partly I suspect it was because we had some time constraints, you know.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Umm OK. But was there, like a sense of like lot of change needed or was it kind of a thought that there was enough change having been put in place already?” Hans Klaudt: “No, I think there was a sense, I don't think that anybody felt that there was a lot of change that had already happened. I think there was a sense that there needed to be more change.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “Umm.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Just just time constraints keeping you guys in the books or?” Hans Klaudt: “Where exactly?” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “And once we got into year and third year, we also it wasn't just Monday to Friday anymore.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Hmm.” Hans Klaudt: “You know, there are things commitments on Saturdays and Sundays, particularly in fourth year, but also already in third year.” Hans Klaudt: “So things got pretty tight, but uh.” Hans Klaudt: “You know, it's interesting. I'll I'll give you an example. Joshua Koyanagi: “Sure.” Hans Klaudt: “Some of the some of the professors that that and and consultants in hospitals that we dealt with that we're what we call our staff men you know we would be assigned to a specialist in the surgery or whatever it might be. Uh, some of the older crowd, and I'm gonna say at that time, you know, I would have been in my early to mid 20s. So when I talked about older, I'm talking about people in their 50s and 60 s be more.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Really.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “The fact that Medicare had been put in place, you know, Medicare came in and I think it was nineteen, it was either 65 or 67 I don't remember exactly, but they felt that that was a horrible thing. It was terrible and among our group, and certainly probably most of us in the in the class, it was, we felt it was a great thing. Everybody had access to that medical care. Hans Klaudt: “You know, I think there was some some feeling about poverty and the elimination of poverty.” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh, uh. Unions uh we're felt to be a good thing. So there was still a lot of workers rights issues, although they're probably were more unionized people back then than there are now in Canada.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. Hans Klaudt: “I talked about in Canada, certainly down here in the state. It's totally different. I don't think that the the. Huge discrepancies in wealth that have come about in the last years were an issue back then. I don't if if it were if, if if that was an issue back then, we weren't aware of.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, OK. And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about like gender, family and dating were outdated?” Hans Klaudt: “My wife on the phone. She just got home. She was on the phone and they heard her. They're not very smart somedays. I don't know. I can't. I I find it hard to answer that question. I don't think it's something that came up. I was never given any grief around my activities in that regard, you know, which were probably we're, I'm sure we're very different from my parents.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. So like among your friends, they didn't think like “ohh my parents. Like they're they're too conservative”or anything like that.” Hans Klaudt: “If if that was an issue for them, it wasn't a topic of conversation. And I that I was aware of, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, so it wasn't, it wasn't too big extent sure.” Hans Klaudt: “No, no.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Looking back to the 70s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see the most like out of whack? And in need of change.” Hans Klaudt: “What did I see most out of wack? Ohh, that's really interesting. That's a really interesting question, ohm. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a with an answer. There, there was an immediate answer. Ohh a lot more I they're a lot more issues going on right now than there were back then. But you know, we're living. I'm living in the present time. Yeah, I I can't. I I wouldn't be able to name anything off the top of my head. I'd have to give that some thought, a lot of thought actually.” Joshua Koyanagi: “That's fine. Uh, and then sort of in the same vein, what did you think the principal forms of injustice were in the s, like maybe racism, sexism.” Hans Klaudt: “I think I, you know, having spent having spent my early years in in Montreal. And. With the whole Quebec separation issue having come up, uh, I felt that that was a big issue. I felt that the the FLQ, not necessarily their violent methods, but the notion that Francophones should enjoy a similar status in the country as everyone else, and that they hadn't until then. I believe that they hadn't until then, because here I am. I grew up in Montreal and I and I like the vast majority of Anglophones, didn't have to speak French to get along and business. It's particularly business was controlled by anglophones at the time, so I thought that that was a big issue. I I don't remember the other. Racial issues. So much, for example, black, white, Asians. Native Americans didn't hear a lot of Native American was something that came up, I think, a little later. Uh, that came to the fore a little later, so for me it would have been the the the French English issue. I think that top of mind, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Cool. Uh, did you feel that? The political system was democratic and fair and responsive to the citizens needs. Or did you think it was ineffective? At uh meeting citizens demands.” Hans Klaudt: “Well, I felt whenever the whenever the Liberals were in power, that things were going very well. When the Conservatives took over that they were not, that they, that the Liberals tended to have the common person. Uh, in mind when they crafted legislation and so forth, and when the Conservatives took over that it was more geared towards business interests and so forth. You know that that was just. Our impression, and by essay our very certainly, my impression again, you know, the folks that I hang hung around with. We were of of similar mind about that. We felt it was democratic enough we could go and vote. I think most of us voted and we felt that. Democracy in in the context of Canada, Canadian Democracy worked by large.” Joshua Koyanagi: “A nowadays like amongst my friends, it's not really like like voting is not really like something that you would assume someone is doing a among your friends back in that day.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Did you feel like most of your friends were voting and participating in the political system?” Hans Klaudt: “I thought they were. Yeah, I thought they were. Maybe not everyone. I guess you'll never have everyone, but I thought that most people were, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. That's interesting. Uh, cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill and the legalization of abortion and dissemination of like the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 70s. Do you agree with that statement?” Hans Klaudt: “Yes.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, I think so. I sort of touched on that a little bit earlier. I had. I didn't have a I didn't have abortion in mind, but certainly yes, I think I think it did. Uh, and I have no comparison other than. I could imagine what it was like before, before the birth control pill, for example. And you know, in some conversations with my my parents and and peers of theirs, you know? Yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Uh, what? Did like dating look like at University of Ottawa in the s, like formal and formal type of thing?” Hans Klaudt: “I think both, uh, but there was quite a bit of informal dating, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah. So how did your generation look at like starting a family and marriage? Like? Was that something definitely on the agenda or not? Something felt necessary.” Hans Klaudt: “Uh again, most of the most of the folks that I hung out with. Those six years were ultimately. Going in that route. Actually, several people married Wiley were in medical school. For example, some even had children while they were in medical school, and I think by and large that was that was felt to be where?” Joshua Koyanagi: “Within the norm.” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh, most people were going some maybe the and that was within the norm.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, some people were putting it off a little bit. You know, they say, well, I'm, you know, I'm I'm gonna, we're going to put it off or I'm going to put it off until I finish my post. Graduate training and people didn't, but I I think that that was felt to be pretty much be the norm, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. And next question like this disclaimer it it deals with sexuality and harassment and we appreciate that not everyone would feel comfortable and we just want to reiterate that it's completely voluntary. You don't have to answer this question if you don't want to. So, so OK with you.” Hans Klaudt: “No. Yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK, so many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor like mixers and social events to keep women safe in the 70s?” Hans Klaudt: “I my experience was none at all.” Joshua Koyanagi: “None. OK.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So there was no like like trainings or anything like that. Type of no. OK.” Hans Klaudt: “No, not not. Not that I have any recollection of at all.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK.” Joshua Koyanagi: “And a lot of. Our generation is interested in the free love movement. What was the perception of premarital sex in the University of Ottawa campus in the 70s like, like negative or accepted or like look positively upon?” Hans Klaudt: “Great idea.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Great idea. OK, cool.” Hans Klaudt: “No, it's the bottom line, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. And was it like a big worry of your parents generation?” Hans Klaudt: “Uh, you. You mean that we would be engaged in that this free sex?” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “Ohh.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah, like, is it gonna, like corrupt society or?” Hans Klaudt: “I wouldn't say that it was a worry, that it would corrupt society, but it was sort of a. Ohh, you know they in that sense they were probably more conservative than than we.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Yeah.” Hans Klaudt: “And you know, sort of look negatively upon it, I would say.” Joshua Koyanagi: “The title is called OK.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, yeah.” Joshua Koyanagi: “OK. Well, that wraps up my questions for you. But before I let you go just for like archiving purposes of the of the interview. I just need to know like what city you're located in. Forgot to ask at the start.” Hans Klaudt: “I'm in Tu, Tucson, Arizona.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Oh, really? Wow, OK, alright. Well, Hans, thank you so much.” Hans Klaudt: “Good.” Joshua Koyanagi: “I enjoyed this was really fun and yeah, that's all my questions.” Hans Klaudt: “Yeah, good.” Joshua Koyanagi: “So thank you so much.” Hans Klaudt: “Good luck. Good luck with your project.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Thank you so much. Have a good day.” Hans Klaudt: “You're.” Hans Klaudt: “You're very welcome. Bye bye.” Joshua Koyanagi: “Right.” Transcription Translation Joshua Koyanagi : "Tester. Test. OK, bonjour. Et vous." Hans Klaudt : "Bonjour." Joshua Koyanagi : "Bonjour, comment allez-vous ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je dois être en sourdine." Joshua Koyanagi : "Je t'entends, tu m'entends ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je ne vous entends pas. Ne quittez pas." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK, peut-être votre volume. Vous m'entendez maintenant ?" Hans Klaudt : "Umm. C'est étrange." Joshua Koyanagi : "Vous m'entendez ?" Hans Klaudt : "Vous m'entendez ?" Hans Klaudt : "Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Désolé, c'est ma faute. Oui, je vous entends. OK, cool." Hans Klaudt : "Vous m'entendez bien, bien." Joshua Koyanagi : "Alors, comment ça va, Hans ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je vais bien. Et toi, Joshua ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Très bien. C'est une belle opportunité pour moi. J'ai hâte d'y être. Avant de commencer, je voudrais juste réitérer que c'est tout à fait volontaire. Je tiens à vous remercier pour votre participation. Et comme vous le savez déjà, vous avez signé la renonciation. Ce sera comme des archives et tout le reste." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, bien sûr." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, je voudrais juste poser quelques questions d'échauffement avant de passer aux questions de l'entretien proprement dit." Hans Klaudt : "Bien sûr." Joshua Koyanagi : "En quelle année êtes-vous né ?" Hans Klaudt : "1949." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Joshua Koyanagi : "Et où êtes-vous né ?" Hans Klaudt : "A Bonn, en Allemagne." Joshua Koyanagi : "Cool, cool. Quand avez-vous immigré au Canada ?" Hans Klaudt : "J'avais sept ans, mes parents sont venus nous chercher, ma sœur et moi." Joshua Koyanagi : "Alors, où avez-vous grandi au Canada ?" Hans Klaudt : Principalement à Montréal, mais oui, c'est là que nous avons grandi." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, en anglais ? Eh bien, en allemand, mais avez-vous fait vos études en français ou en anglais ?" Hans Klaudt : "En anglais, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "En anglais, d'accord." Joshua Koyanagi : "Avant de commencer l'entretien, je me demandais si je pouvais vous faire écouter une chanson. Une chanson populaire des années 60 pour vous faire remonter le temps. Cela ne vous dérange pas ?" Hans Klaudt : "Allez-y, voyez si vous vous en souvenez." Joshua Koyanagi : "On verra. Vous voyez mon écran ?" Hans Klaudt : "Oui, je peux." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, OK. Voilà, souvenez-vous de cette chanson." Hans Klaudt : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Très bien." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'après mes recherches, c'était ma chanson préférée à l'époque, c'est pourquoi je l'ai jouée." Hans Klaudt : "Très bien. C'était une très bonne chanson." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'après ce que j'ai écouté." Hans Klaudt : "C'est une grande chanson." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Nous allons commencer l'interview. Euh, les questions principales maintenant." Hans Klaudt : "Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones sont liés les uns aux autres afin d'être moins électronique dans la société canadienne des années 70, évidemment. Comment était structuré votre temps libre et qu'est-ce que vous faisiez ? Que faisaient les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser ? Et les années 70". Hans Klaudt : "Oh là là. Euh, eh bien, les jours où nous étions à l'école ou à l'université, nous avons toujours pensé que nous passions une partie de notre temps en classe et l'autre partie entre les deux. Je m'en souviens donc. Joshua Koyanagi : "OK. Cool." Hans Klaudt : "On jouait beaucoup aux cartes, on jouait beaucoup au cœur, surtout avec des petites sommes d'argent, mais c'était une grande partie de notre temps libre pendant la journée, pas pendant le week-end. Nous étions nombreux à nous retrouver dans un pub du centre-ville appelé The Albion, et je ne me souviens pas exactement de l'endroit, mais c'était en bas. C'était vers la rue Rideau, mais pas au niveau de Rideau. C'était un peu plus loin. Hans Klaudt : " Vous descendez Nicholas et vous tournez à droite. Quoi qu'il en soit, nous avons bu beaucoup de bière." Joshua Koyanagi : "Cool." Hans Klaudt : "Euh, oui. C'était en quelque sorte mon, vous savez, j'ai passé deux ans à la. Faculté des sciences. Et puis j'allais faire. J'étais dans un programme de biologie avec spécialisation ou dans un programme de biologie avec spécialisation dans un programme de quatre ans, et à un moment donné, je m'écarte un peu du sujet, mais j'y reviendrai dans la deuxième année, l'école de médecine a envoyé un avis disant qu'il y avait des problèmes de santé. Euh, en gros, un avis disant qu'ils étaient intéressés à recevoir des candidatures d'étudiants moins typiques, vous savez, d'étudiants ordinaires. J'avais commencé à l'Université d'Ottawa en tant qu'étudiant adulte. J'ai commencé ma première année à l'âge de 18 ans et j'ai été admis en tant qu'étudiant adulte. Je n'avais jamais terminé ma treizième année, alors sur un coup de tête, je me suis dit, pourquoi pas ? Mes notes étaient bonnes et j'ai été acceptée. Quand je suis entré à l'école de médecine, c'est-à-dire en troisième année à l'université d'Ottawa, la vie a un peu changé, vous savez, mais ces deux-là d'abord." Joshua Koyanagi : "Plus sérieusement." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, plus occupée." Joshua Koyanagi : "Umm, j'imagine." Hans Klaudt : "Beaucoup plus occupé, oui, je pense. Oui, sur le plan académique. Beaucoup plus occupé, moins de temps libre, c'est sûr. Excusez-moi et. Nous sommes aussi devenus plus euh, devrais-je dire, vous savez, c'est un groupe plus petit. Il y a des gens, je pense, dans notre classe par rapport à une centaine de personnes dans la faculté des sciences et de la biologie et dans les premiers cours d'introduction que nous avons suivis dans le cadre d'un programme de biologie A. Donc, mais nous buvions toujours de l'alcool. Nous buvions toujours beaucoup de bière, mais surtout le vendredi." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "On avait un TGIF au sous-sol. Euh, oui. C'était le temps libre. Je n'avais pas beaucoup d'argent, c'est pourquoi j'étais un étudiant adulte. J'avais quitté l'école. J'ai quitté le lycée, je suis allé travailler pendant un certain temps, je suis revenu, j'ai fait des allers-retours, et je n'avais toujours pas beaucoup d'argent. Je passais donc une partie de mes week-ends à travailler, ce qui me prenait pas mal de temps." Joshua Koyanagi : "Et où traîniez-vous ? Sur le campus, à la bibliothèque ou au centre étudiant ?" Hans Klaudt : "Eh bien, oui, et la bibliothèque pour étudier, c'est sûr, surtout quand j'ai commencé à étudier la médecine. Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Vous savez, nous avions notre propre bibliothèque à l'époque. Vous ne le savez peut-être pas, mais la faculté de médecine se trouvait dans un vieux bâtiment de la rue Nicholas. Euh, ça doit être ça." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ah, pas sur le campus principal." Hans Klaudt : "Eh bien, cela faisait partie du campus principal, donc ce n'était pas là où se trouve maintenant la Faculté de médecine, juste là où se trouve l'Hôpital général d'Ottawa et l'Hôpital pour enfants, tout ce complexe. Ce n'était pas là à l'époque." Hans Klaudt : "Nous étions donc encore plus centrés, je veux dire nos activités et je vivais avec un groupe de gars et quatre autres gars au coin de Wilbrod et King Edward." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Il y avait un immeuble de deux étages et nous y avons loué un appartement. On traînait en ville pendant notre temps libre, quand on avait du temps libre, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr. Avez-vous assisté à des concerts pendant vos études ?" Hans Klaudt : "J'essayais de me souvenir. Non, je ne crois pas." Joshua Koyanagi : "Non." Hans Klaudt : "Non, pas que je me souvienne, non." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Hans Klaudt : "Non, je vais dire non." Joshua Koyanagi : "Alors OK, et en tant qu'institution bilingue, quel était le degré d'intégration linguistique de l'uottawa dans les années 70 ? Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient aux mêmes cours ou aux mêmes clubs ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je ne sais pas pour les clubs. Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Je n'ai pas eu le temps de m'inscrire dans les clubs, mais en termes de classes, nous avions un certain nombre de francophones. Je ne peux pas. Je ne pourrais pas dire quel pourcentage de nos classes étaient francophones, mais quoi ? Quel pourcentage de notre classe était francophone ? Mais j'en connaissais certainement un certain nombre. Euh, les cours étaient tous en anglais à l'époque. En tant qu'étudiant à l'Université d'Ottawa, nous devions. Nous devions prouver que nous étions au moins fonctionnellement bilingues et soit passer un examen qui était un examen écrit et oral, et je parlais suffisamment français." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "J'ai passé un certain temps dans l'est de l'Ontario, qui, comme vous le savez peut-être, comptait une importante population canadienne-française travaillant dans les fermes, et j'ai appris le français et j'avais appris un peu de français en vivant à Montréal, bien qu'il soit intéressant de noter que si vous étiez anglophone, vous n'aviez pas besoin de parler français à Montréal dans les années 600 et au début des années 70, alors..." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. OK, est-ce que vous avez déjà eu connaissance de relations entre francophones et anglophones dans les années 70 ?" Hans Klaudt : "Oui, oui, oui, je." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ce n'était pas du jamais vu." Hans Klaudt : "Non, non. Il y avait une fille. Je suis sorti brièvement avec une francophone." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK, cool." Hans Klaudt : "Mais on ne parlait pas français, on ne parlait qu'anglais." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Vous avez déjà répondu en partie, mais nous utilisons le terme "culture de la fête" pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Et comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Ottawa dans les années 1970 ?" Hans Klaudt : "Ohh, je pense qu'il y avait beaucoup plus d'opportunités que de santé. Qu'en dites-vous ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Hans Klaudt : "Il se passait beaucoup de choses. Surtout le week-end, le vendredi soir." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Il se passait toujours quelque chose quelque part. Il y avait d'autres personnes qui louaient des maisons, vous savez, ils louaient un appartement, un peu comme nous le faisions. Et le vendredi soir, ils recevaient des gens. Nous avions l'habitude de recevoir des gens le vendredi soir, vous savez, et de sortir parfois le samedi aussi. Le dimanche, c'était un peu plus calme." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, tout à fait." Hans Klaudt : "Vous essayez de rattraper votre retard, vos lectures, etc. Vous essayez de reprendre ou de rattraper vos lectures, etc. Mais je dirais que c'était assez actif." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ohh. Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Umm, principalement autour de la boisson, vous savez, le noir, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Alors, ça sort un peu du lot, mais qu'est-ce que les étudiants pensaient de la guerre du Vietnam ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je ne sais pas si je peux dire que le groupe avec lequel je traînais pensait que c'était une chose terrible. Ohh, c'était une chose horrible. Cela n'aurait jamais dû arriver. Personne n'était intéressé. Personne dans le groupe que je connaissais n'était intéressé par le volontariat." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, c'est un peu au hasard qu'un Canadien s'intéresse à ça, alors oui." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, il y a eu des Canadiens qui sont allés là-bas, mais pourquoi ? Je ne sais pas, donc je n'en faisais certainement pas partie. Je ne faisais certainement pas partie de cette foule. Je l'étais. J'ai toujours été contre la guerre. Il doit y avoir de meilleures façons de traiter les problèmes, mais euh, ouais, donc le groupe avec lequel je traînais. Mais encore une fois, comprenez, vous savez, c'est les gens, vous savez, les oiseaux d'une plume s'assemblent ce genre d'idée." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Nous étions donc, je pense que la majorité d'entre nous était politiquement plutôt libérale, voire progressiste." Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Si je peux utiliser ce terme." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord. Donc, pendant les années S, beaucoup d'artistes de rock'n'roll faisaient la promotion de différents types de protestation. Vos parents voyaient-ils le rock'n'roll comme une forme de rébellion, ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je pense qu'ils ne le voyaient pas comme une forme de protestation. Ils y voyaient une musique horrible." Hans Klaudt : "Comment pouvez-vous ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Une musique horrible." Hans Klaudt : "Comment pouvez-vous écouter ça ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Cool. Cool." Joshua Koyanagi : "Donc, ils ne considéraient pas que c'était nécessairement un moyen de corrompre la jeunesse ? Comme corrompre la jeunesse ? Ce genre de chose. C'était juste mauvais." Hans Klaudt : "De la mauvaise musique, de la mauvaise musique. Du point de vue, ils auraient préféré écouter des trucs avec lesquels ils ont grandi dans les années 30 et 40. Euh." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, oui, bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Oui. Et mes parents et moi étions assez... Je dirais que c'est surtout ma mère qui a eu la plus grande influence dans notre foyer sur notre façon de voir les choses. Hans Klaudt : "Mon père pouvait être un peu... conservateur parfois, je dirais. conservateur parfois, je dirais. Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr. Hans Klaudt : "Mais ma mère était tout sauf cela. Et encore une fois, vous savez, mes deux parents étaient adolescents pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale. Ils étaient adolescents en Allemagne et pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale. Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, oui." Hans Klaudt : "Leurs points de vue ont coloré leurs points de vue, mais non, ce n'est pas le cas. Mes parents, ma mère était plus intéressée par la musique que mon père." Joshua Koyanagi : "Hmm, OK." Hans Klaudt : "Ma mère jouait du piano et, croyez-le ou non, de l'accordéon, et si elle s'intéressait à la musique, elle n'aimait pas le rock'n'roll, dans l'ensemble, et elle pensait que ce n'était pas de la bonne musique, mais..." Joshua Koyanagi : "Et pendant les années 1970, comme certaines cultures de jeunes, des voix ont encouragé la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur le campus dans les années 1970 ?" Hans Klaudt : "Il y avait un." Joshua Koyanagi : "A votre connaissance, comme la marijuana ou les psychédéliques." Hans Klaudt : "Il y avait beaucoup de marijuana disponible. Il était très rare d'aller à une fête où les gens ne fumaient pas de la dope. Je pense qu'il y avait un peu de LSD. Je ne pense pas qu'il y avait de la cocaïne. Je n'en ai pas entendu parler. L'héroïne n'était pas un problème à l'époque, ni le fentanyl, ni les stupéfiants délivrés sur ordonnance. Il s'agissait donc principalement d'hallucinogènes. Et la marijuana, je dirais. Et c'était certainement le cas dans la foule avec laquelle je traînais. Je crois qu'il n'y avait personne qui ne fumait pas." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. OK, alors dans quelle mesure les étudiants consomment-ils des hallucinogènes ? Si vous deviez calculer un pourcentage de la population étudiante, par exemple. Hmm." Hans Klaudt : "La foule avec laquelle je traînais là-bas était peut-être, vous savez, et je vais dire peut-être des gens que je connaissais relativement bien parce que nous ne nous retrouvions pas ensemble dans des endroits où il n'y en avait qu'un ou deux." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, d'accord. La prochaine question principale est la suivante. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la deuxième vague du féminisme, selon laquelle, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 2000 ont commencé à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70 ? Hans Klaudt : "Je dirais oui, je dirais oui. Euh, excusez-moi une seconde." Joshua Koyanagi : "Très bien." Hans Klaudt : "UM. Je peux prendre ça une seconde ? C'est très important." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, allez-y." Hans Klaudt : "Très." Hans Klaudt : "Je suis désolé, je ne m'attendais pas à ça." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ce n'est pas grave." *Hans part prendre un appel téléphonique* Hans Klaudt : "Désolé." Joshua Koyanagi : "C'est bon." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Le féminisme, c'était, c'était ça. C'était ça ? Je suis. Il y en avait certainement un certain nombre et, encore une fois, la plupart des souvenirs que j'ai de l'université étaient un Fort, mes quatre années d'études de médecine, plus que les deux premières années. Je pense que c'est un peu exagéré. C'est presque un peu amorphe, mais nous avions un certain nombre de femmes dans notre classe. Ce n'était pas encore 50-50, mais je pense qu'il y en avait entre 25 et 30 % et j'en connaissais un bon nombre, certaines de plus près que d'autres. Je pense qu'elles étaient assez sûres d'elles. Ils n'étaient pas du genre à s'effacer, ils. Vous savez, je pense qu'ils se déplaçaient socialement assez confortablement. Je ne sais pas quoi dire d'autre. Je ne sais pas si nous avons eu beaucoup de conversations sur l'évolution de la situation. Je pense que tout le monde, la plupart des gens étaient heureux que la pilule soit disponible. Vous savez, ce genre de choses." Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr. Et dans vos propres mots, comme quoi ? Que signifiait le féminisme au Canada dans les années 70 ? A vous de jouer." Hans Klaudt : "Ohh, je crois. Les femmes commençaient à jouer un rôle sur un pied d'égalité avec les hommes. Leurs opinions étaient appréciées, alors qu'elles devaient rester en arrière-plan. On a compris que les femmes pouvaient devenir des professionnelles, et pas seulement des secrétaires, des infirmières ou des enseignantes. Ohm, je pense qu'il y avait une partie de la pilule qui était intéressante parce que je pense que la révolution sexuelle qui a commencé dans les années 60, à la fin des années 60, s'est poursuivie dans les années 70. Je pense que ça se passait aussi Ohh et c'est comme ça que je l'ai vécu." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, pensez-vous que c'est le cas ? Pensez-vous que le fait d'être une femme donnait lieu à un traitement et à des attentes différentes dans les salles de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux par rapport aux étudiants masculins de l'époque ?" Hans Klaudt : "Hmm, c'est une question très intéressante. Je ne suis pas sûr que nous ayons eu quelques femmes dans notre classe, si je me souviens bien, et il y en a eu plusieurs qui se sont distinguées à cet égard, qui ont très, très bien réussi sur le plan académique. Non, il n'était pas rare que les trois premiers étudiants de notre classe fassent partie des trois ou cinq premiers. La majorité des cinq premiers étaient des femmes. Trois d'entre eux étaient des femmes, voire quatre. Ohh les trois premiers. Nous sommes deux d'entre eux et je ne sais pas s'il y avait des attentes différentes à leur égard ou s'ils étaient juste là pour prouver quelque chose." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, c'est ce que j'allais demander. Pensez-vous qu'ils avaient le sentiment de devoir faire leurs preuves ?" Hans Klaudt : "Oui. Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Euh, faire de bonnes études." Hans Klaudt : "Et je peux certainement parler de ce qui s'est passé après l'obtention du diplôme, lorsqu'il a fallu trouver un poste d'interne et, plus important encore, d'interne dans certaines spécialités." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Et c'est devenu un problème plus important que, par exemple, l'une des femmes de notre classe qui est devenue la première femme chirurgien orthopédiste du pays." Joshua Koyanagi : "Wow, c'est cool." Hans Klaudt : "Une autre femme de notre pays est devenue la première chirurgienne cardiothoracique à cœur ouvert du pays. Une autre est devenue la première urologue du pays. Des femmes, vous savez, donc. J'ai eu quelques contacts avec elles après l'obtention de leur diplôme, alors que nous suivions notre programme de formation postuniversitaire. Ce n'était pas facile pour eux. Il y a certainement eu des réactions négatives. Ils se retrouvaient dans une foule différente à ce moment-là, vous savez, ils se retrouvaient avec des gens qui contrôlaient ces postes et qui étaient d'une génération plus âgée, et cela s'est certainement fait sentir." Joshua Koyanagi : "Vous diriez donc qu'à l'école, c'était plus progressiste que dans le monde réel." Hans Klaudt : "Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "C'était une sorte de ouais, OK." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Euh, dans les S, là où il y a des programmes de l'Université d'Ottawa, des départements, des clubs où les femmes étaient moins présentes ou plus présentes. Qu'est-ce qui était le plus ou le moins dominé par les femmes ?" Hans Klaudt : "Certainement les soins infirmiers, certainement les soins infirmiers." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui, bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Il était très rare à l'époque de voir un homme dans le domaine des soins infirmiers, ce qui n'est plus du tout le cas aujourd'hui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Umm." Hans Klaudt : "Oh non, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. Il y en avait certainement à l'époque." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Non, je ne sais pas. Hans Klaudt : "Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu de scission au cours de mes études de premier cycle, ni au cours de mes études de médecine. Ce n'était certainement pas encore le cas." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Y en a-t-il eu que je n'aurais pas pu dire ? En droit, en ingénierie, en architecture ou autre ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Ou bien y avait-il moins de femmes ? Je ne sais pas. Je ne peux pas répondre à cette question." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord." Hans Klaudt : "C'est ça." Joshua Koyanagi : "Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution contre-culturelle, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de vos parents. Génération. Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour un monde plus juste et meilleur ? Hans Klaudt : "Je ne sais pas. Je pense que le groupe avec lequel je traînais était plutôt libéral, ce qui va dans le sens d'une plus grande ouverture. L'égalité et la justice sociale. La plupart d'entre nous ont voté pour Pierre Trudeau. Qui parlait de justice sociale ? Je veux dire, c'était l'un de ses grands. Programmes, si vous voulez, et il en parlait souvent. Mais je ne pense pas que j'aie eu l'occasion de m'exprimer sur ce sujet. Mais je ne pense pas que je sois au courant de grandes mobilisations de personnes. Certainement pas dans le groupe avec lequel je traînais, et je soupçonne que c'était en partie parce que nous avions des contraintes de temps, vous savez." Joshua Koyanagi : "Umm OK. Mais avait-on le sentiment que beaucoup de changements étaient nécessaires ou pensait-on que suffisamment de changements avaient déjà été mis en place ?" Hans Klaudt : "Non, je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment, je ne pense pas que quelqu'un ait senti qu'il y avait beaucoup de changements qui avaient déjà eu lieu. Je pense qu'il y avait le sentiment qu'il fallait plus de changements." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Hans Klaudt : "Umm." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ce sont les contraintes de temps qui vous ont poussés à rester dans les livres ?" Hans Klaudt : "Où exactement ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Hans Klaudt : "Et quand on est arrivé en troisième année, on s'est rendu compte que ce n'était plus seulement du lundi au vendredi." Joshua Koyanagi : "Hmm." Hans Klaudt : "Vous savez, il y a des engagements le samedi et le dimanche, surtout en quatrième année, mais aussi dès la troisième année." Hans Klaudt : "C'était donc assez serré, mais euh..." Hans Klaudt : "Vous savez, c'est intéressant. Je vais vous donner un exemple. Joshua Koyanagi : "Bien sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Certains des professeurs et des consultants des hôpitaux avec lesquels nous travaillions, que nous appelons nos collaborateurs, étaient affectés à un spécialiste en chirurgie ou autre. Euh, certains des plus âgés, et je vais dire à l'époque, vous savez, j'aurais eu entre le début et la moitié de la vingtaine. Donc quand je parle de personnes plus âgées, je parle de personnes dans la cinquantaine et la soixantaine, voire plus." Joshua Koyanagi : "Vraiment." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Le fait que Medicare ait été mis en place, vous savez, Medicare est arrivé et je pense que c'était dix-neuf, c'était soit 65 ou 67, je ne me souviens pas exactement, mais ils ont senti que c'était une chose horrible. C'était terrible, alors que dans notre groupe, et probablement la plupart d'entre nous dans la classe, nous pensions que c'était une bonne chose. Tout le monde avait accès à ces soins médicaux. Hans Klaudt : "Vous savez, je pense qu'il y avait un certain sentiment au sujet de la pauvreté et de l'élimination de la pauvreté." Hans Klaudt : "Ohh, uh. Les syndicats étaient considérés comme une bonne chose. Il y avait donc encore beaucoup de problèmes liés aux droits des travailleurs, même s'il y avait probablement plus de personnes syndiquées à l'époque qu'il n'y en a aujourd'hui au Canada." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Hans Klaudt : "J'ai parlé du Canada, et certainement de l'État de New York. C'est totalement différent. Je ne pense pas que les. Je ne pense pas que les énormes écarts de richesse qui sont apparus ces dernières années aient été un problème à l'époque. Je ne sais pas si c'était le cas, si c'était un problème à l'époque, nous n'en étions pas conscients." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, d'accord. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les idées de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ?" Hans Klaudt : "Ma femme au téléphone. Elle vient de rentrer à la maison. Elle était au téléphone et ils l'ont entendue. Ils ne sont pas très malins parfois. Je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. J'ai du mal à répondre à cette question. Je ne pense pas que ce soit quelque chose qui ait été soulevé. On ne m'a jamais fait de reproches à propos de mes activités à cet égard, qui étaient probablement très différentes de celles de mes parents." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Tes amis n'ont pas pensé "ohh mes parents". Ils sont trop conservateurs" ou quelque chose comme ça." Hans Klaudt : "Si c'était un problème pour eux, ce n'était pas un sujet de conversation. Et j'en étais conscient, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK, donc ce n'était pas, ce n'était pas trop important, c'est sûr." Hans Klaudt : "Non, non." Joshua Koyanagi : "Dans les années 70, quel aspect de la société canadienne vous semblait le plus déréglé ? Et qu'il fallait changer." Hans Klaudt : "Qu'est-ce qui m'a semblé le plus déréglé ? Ohh, c'est vraiment intéressant. C'est une question très intéressante. J'aurais du mal à trouver une réponse. Là, il y a eu une réponse immédiate. Il y a beaucoup plus de problèmes aujourd'hui qu'à l'époque. Mais vous savez, nous vivons. Je vis dans le temps présent. Oui, je ne peux pas. Je ne serais pas capable de citer quoi que ce soit d'emblée. Il faudrait que j'y réfléchisse, beaucoup en fait." Joshua Koyanagi : "C'est très bien. Et dans le même ordre d'idées, quelles étaient, selon vous, les principales formes d'injustice dans les années S, comme le racisme, le sexisme..." Hans Klaudt : "Je pense que j'ai passé mes premières années à Montréal. Et. La question de la séparation du Québec ayant été soulevée, j'ai senti que c'était un problème important. Je pensais que le FLQ, pas nécessairement ses méthodes violentes, mais la notion que les francophones devraient jouir d'un statut similaire à celui de tous les autres dans le pays, et qu'ils ne l'avaient pas fait jusqu'alors. Je crois que ce n'était pas le cas jusqu'à ce moment-là, parce que je suis ici. J'ai grandi à Montréal et, comme la grande majorité des anglophones, je n'avais pas besoin de parler français pour me débrouiller dans les affaires. À l'époque, les affaires étaient surtout contrôlées par les anglophones, alors j'ai pensé que c'était un gros problème. Je ne me souviens pas des autres questions. Les questions raciales. On parlait beaucoup, par exemple, des Noirs, des Blancs, des Asiatiques. Les Amérindiens n'ont pas beaucoup entendu parler des Amérindiens, c'est quelque chose qui est apparu, je pense, un peu plus tard. Pour moi, cela aurait été la question franco-anglaise. Je pense que c'est ce qui m'est venu à l'esprit, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Cool. Avez-vous ressenti cela ? Le système politique était démocratique et juste, il répondait aux besoins des citoyens. Ou bien pensiez-vous qu'il était inefficace ? Pour ce qui est de répondre aux demandes des citoyens." Hans Klaudt : "Eh bien, j'avais l'impression qu'à chaque fois que les libéraux étaient au pouvoir, les choses allaient très bien. Lorsque les conservateurs ont pris le pouvoir, ils n'étaient pas, ils, les libéraux avaient tendance à avoir le commun des mortels à l'esprit lorsqu'ils élaboraient des projets de loi. Euh, lorsqu'ils élaboraient des lois et ainsi de suite, les libéraux avaient tendance à penser au commun des mortels, et lorsque les conservateurs ont pris le pouvoir, ils étaient davantage axés sur les intérêts commerciaux et ainsi de suite. Vous savez que c'était juste. Notre impression, et par essai notre très certainement, mon impression encore une fois, vous savez, les gens que j'ai traîné avec. Nous étions du même avis à ce sujet. Nous pensions que c'était suffisamment démocratique pour que nous puissions aller voter. Je pense que la plupart d'entre nous ont voté et nous l'avons ressenti. La démocratie dans le contexte du Canada, la démocratie canadienne, a fonctionné dans l'ensemble. Joshua Koyanagi : "De nos jours, parmi mes amis, ce n'est pas vraiment comme si le vote était quelque chose que l'on supposait que quelqu'un faisait parmi nos amis à l'époque." Joshua Koyanagi : "Aviez-vous l'impression que la plupart de vos amis votaient et participaient au système politique ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je pensais que c'était le cas. Oui, c'est ce que je pensais. Peut-être pas tout le monde. Je suppose qu'il n'y aura jamais tout le monde, mais je pensais que la plupart des gens le faisaient, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, c'est intéressant. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague au début des années 70. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ?" Hans Klaudt : "Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, je pense. J'en ai parlé un peu plus tôt. J'avais. Je n'avais pas l'avortement à l'esprit, mais oui, je pense que c'est le cas. Euh, et je n'ai pas d'autre comparaison. Je pourrais imaginer ce que c'était avant, avant la pilule contraceptive, par exemple. Et vous savez, dans certaines conversations avec mes parents et leurs pairs, vous savez ? Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Euh, quoi ? Est-ce qu'à l'Université d'Ottawa, dans les années 60, les rencontres étaient formelles et officielles ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je pense que les deux, euh, mais il y avait pas mal de rencontres informelles, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui. Comment votre génération envisageait-elle de fonder une famille et de se marier ? Par exemple ? Est-ce que c'était quelque chose de vraiment à l'ordre du jour ou pas ? Quelque chose de nécessaire ?" Hans Klaudt : "Encore une fois, la plupart des gens avec qui je traînais. Ces six années ont été décisives. C'est dans cette voie que je me suis engagé. En fait, plusieurs personnes se sont mariées pendant que Wiley était à l'école de médecine. Par exemple, certains ont même eu des enfants pendant qu'ils étaient à l'école de médecine, et je pense que dans l'ensemble, c'est ce qui a été ressenti comme étant où ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Dans la norme." Hans Klaudt : "Ohh, la plupart des gens allaient peut-être jusqu'au et c'était dans la norme." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, certains remettaient un peu les choses à plus tard. Vous savez, ils disaient, eh bien, je, vous savez, je vais, nous allons le remettre à plus tard ou je vais le remettre à plus tard jusqu'à ce que je finisse mon poste. Il y a des formations diplômantes et d'autres non, mais je pense que c'était la norme, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord. La question suivante concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Nous comprenons que tout le monde ne se sente pas à l'aise et nous voulons juste réitérer que c'est totalement volontaire. Vous n'êtes pas obligé de répondre à cette question si vous ne le souhaitez pas. Donc, c'est d'accord avec vous." Hans Klaudt : "Non. Oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord, de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires surveillaient-elles les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes dans les années 70 ? Hans Klaudt : "D'après mon expérience, il n'y en avait pas du tout." Joshua Koyanagi : "Aucune. D'ACCORD." Joshua Koyanagi : "Il n'y avait donc pas de formations ou autres. Ce genre de choses, c'est non. OK." Hans Klaudt : "Non, pas du tout. Je n'en ai pas le moindre souvenir." Joshua Koyanagi : "OK." Joshua Koyanagi : "Et beaucoup. Notre génération s'intéresse au mouvement de l'amour libre. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70, négative ou acceptée ou au contraire considérée comme positive ?" Hans Klaudt : "Excellente idée." Joshua Koyanagi : "Excellente idée. OK, cool." Hans Klaudt : "Non, c'est le fond du problème, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord. Et c'était une préoccupation majeure de la génération de vos parents ?" Hans Klaudt : "Euh, vous. Vous voulez dire que nous allions avoir des relations sexuelles libres ?" Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Ohh." Joshua Koyanagi : "Ouais, est-ce que ça va corrompre la société ?" Hans Klaudt : "Je ne dirais pas que c'était une inquiétude, que ça allait corrompre la société, mais c'était une sorte de... Ohh, vous savez, dans ce sens, ils étaient probablement plus conservateurs que nous." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oui." Hans Klaudt : "Et vous savez, ils voyaient ça d'un mauvais œil, je dirais." Joshua Koyanagi : "Le titre s'appelle OK." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, oui." Joshua Koyanagi : "Voilà, c'est tout ce que j'avais à vous demander. Mais avant de vous laisser partir, à des fins d'archivage de l'interview, j'ai besoin de savoir quelle ville vous habitez. J'ai juste besoin de savoir dans quelle ville vous vous trouvez. J'ai oublié de le demander au début. Hans Klaudt : "Je suis à Tu, Tucson, Arizona." Joshua Koyanagi : "Oh, vraiment ? Wow, d'accord, d'accord. Eh bien, Hans, merci beaucoup." Hans Klaudt : "Bien." Joshua Koyanagi : "J'ai trouvé cela très amusant et oui, c'est tout ce que j'avais à vous demander." Hans Klaudt : "Oui, bien." Joshua Koyanagi : "Merci beaucoup." Hans Klaudt : "Bonne chance. Bonne chance pour votre projet. Joshua Koyanagi : "Merci beaucoup. Bonne journée." Hans Klaudt : "Vous êtes." Hans Klaudt : "De rien. Au revoir." Joshua Koyanagi : "D'accord." Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Klaudt, Hans T. (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the 1970s, including popular culture, the female experience and, generational differences Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 38 minutes, 49 seconds Person An individual. Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Bonn, Germany Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1970-1976 Degree Professional degree Career professional Occupation Doctor Ethnicity German Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life agnostic Gender Identity man Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Klaudt, Hans T. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.760 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:0:2.740 --> 0:0:10.20 Elliot Douglas So today is Friday, October 20th, 2023. This is Elliot Douglas interviewing Jacob M over teams for the life on campus interview. 0:0:11.520 --> 0:0:14.520 Elliot Douglas So we will just start with the first section of questions. 0:0:19.600 --> 0:0:41.400 Elliot Douglas So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood and popular music and consumer culture were built around automobiles a lot during North American culture. At the time, Ottawa was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones kind of work together in the school. So there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured? 0:0:43.480 --> 0:0:45.200 Jacob M. Uh, mostly spent with my wife. 0:0:46.250 --> 0:0:54.530 Jacob M. I don’t think I really had any leisure time, but we would, we would skate and visit with friends. It's all all the usual easy things that people do. 0:0:55.60 --> 0:0:55.380 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:0:55.890 --> 0:1:2.250 Jacob M. We are. We're from Montreal, so we drive back to Montreal every maybe once a month to visit our parents there. 0:1:3.820 --> 0:1:7.380 Jacob M. Like it was, it's all actually All in all, fairly quiet. 0:1:8.440 --> 0:1:14.360 Elliot Douglas Fair yeah, were you guys skating on the Rideau Canal mainly, and everything? 0:1:11.960 --> 0:1:16.320 Jacob M. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I I think I almost broke my. 0:1:17.450 --> 0:1:22.650 Jacob M. I think I broke almost broke some part of my shoulder in the Rideau Canal when I skated in a rut. I remember that. 0:1:22.900 --> 0:1:23.740 Elliot Douglas Oh my goodness. 0:1:33.980 --> 0:1:34.660 Elliot Douglas Oh no. 0:1:24.430 --> 0:1:36.550 Jacob M. So if you're skating on the can, there used to be a big rut down the middle in the winter. It's probably no longer there, but I somehow managed to land in it by accident and I caught my skate and I flipped over. 0:1:37.30 --> 0:1:37.910 Elliot Douglas Oh my goodness. 0:1:39.550 --> 0:1:43.310 Elliot Douglas Yeah, I'm. I'm interested to see. I'm hoping that it freezes over again this year, but. 0:1:44.770 --> 0:2:2.330 Jacob M. Even when I lived in Ottawa, which is now quite a few years ago, that we we left when we left Ottawa in 1985. But even then there was a winter fest, but some years almost have to be cancelled because of lack of ice on the canal. So it's not a new phenomenon, unfortunately. 0:2:2.810 --> 0:2:7.410 Elliot Douglas Yeah. So what was the winter fest like? What would go on there at all if you remember? 0:2:7.90 --> 0:2:15.50 Jacob M. No, no, I remember. I remember little little cabins or huts along the ice where you could get changed, put on your skates. 0:2:16.490 --> 0:2:19.930 Jacob M. We used to go to Lord Elgin hotel for a snack afterwards. I remember that. 0:2:21.690 --> 0:2:31.730 Jacob M. I forgot the name of some of the parks in Ottawa, but we walked from the from the canal over to Lori Elgin and have, you know, coffee and muffins or whatever, something very prosaic. 0:2:32.70 --> 0:2:35.310 Elliot Douglas Yeah, sounds like a nice way to spend a winter afternoon. 0:2:35.800 --> 0:2:36.920 Jacob M. Mhmm it was yes. 0:2:38.640 --> 0:2:46.200 Elliot Douglas Do you remember any there being? Sorry. Do you remember there being any live music events during your time here or just in Ottawa generally? 0:2:48.760 --> 0:2:50.400 Jacob M. There were. There was something called Louis Hibou. 0:2:51.710 --> 0:3:6.910 Jacob M. HIBOU which I guess is the owl. There was live music there at one point there I saw I have to reminder the names of some well known Canadian folk folk singers. Nothing comes to mind. I think I saw Marie McLaughlin there. 0:3:7.210 --> 0:3:7.930 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:3:8.160 --> 0:3:11.440 Jacob M. And beyond that, I forget who else we were there a number of times. 0:3:12.560 --> 0:3:15.200 Elliot Douglas Wow, where would those concerts usually take place? 0:3:16.380 --> 0:3:17.380 Jacob M. Somewhere. 0:3:19.710 --> 0:3:25.270 Jacob M. Again, I forgot my forgotten my my Ottawa, Ottawa geography somewhere north of. 0:3:26.310 --> 0:3:29.710 Jacob M. North of Wellington, east of Sussex, in that area. 0:3:30.30 --> 0:3:31.30 Elliot Douglas OK. Yeah. 0:3:31.390 --> 0:3:36.710 Jacob M. I'm not sure what's that. What's that part of the city called now? I don't know. It had a name. 0:3:36.40 --> 0:3:43.120 Elliot Douglas I'm I'm honestly not sure. Probably like Orleans, maybe, but. 0:3:42.490 --> 0:3:44.610 Jacob M. No, it's it's a part of the city. 0:3:55.870 --> 0:3:56.630 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:3:46.110 --> 0:3:57.190 Jacob M. It's it's West of Dalhousie, a little bit east of the of the American consulate, the American Embassy rather, which wasn't there at the time. The embassy wasn't there then. 0:3:59.70 --> 0:4:3.350 Elliot Douglas Oh Ok, do you remember when the embassy was put in? Were you in Ottawa when that happened? 0:4:3.900 --> 0:4:5.180 Jacob M. I don't think so. 0:4:7.410 --> 0:4:14.210 Jacob M. 1990s. I'm really not sure that they used to be in an old building directly across the street from from the parliament buildings. 0:4:15.330 --> 0:4:18.130 Jacob M. And then became the Rideau Club and after that I have no idea. 0:4:19.60 --> 0:4:20.60 Elliot Douglas Yeah, that's interesting. 0:4:19.90 --> 0:4:21.570 Jacob M. The the building is still there, the building is there. 0:4:22.150 --> 0:4:22.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:4:23.100 --> 0:4:23.940 Elliot Douglas That's interesting. 0:4:25.700 --> 0:4:29.100 Elliot Douglas So uOttawa was a bilingual institution just like it is now. 0:4:30.640 --> 0:4:39.280 Elliot Douglas How linguistically integrated was it? Did francophones and anglophones like enrol in the same courses or participate in clubs together that you remember or for your programme with the law school? 0:4:38.430 --> 0:4:43.310 Jacob M. I don't know. Yeah. And like you see the COM at that time, common law was taught only in English. 0:4:44.710 --> 0:4:47.710 Jacob M. We had lots of francophones in our class, but they were speaking English. 0:4:48.770 --> 0:4:49.10 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:4:49.230 --> 0:4:53.430 Jacob M. Most of francophones in the in the class were were from Ontario. 0:4:54.590 --> 0:5:4.390 Jacob M. There are a lot of francophones in the civil law school at the time, which was taught entirely in French, and many of those people were were from, from Quebec. 0:5:5.300 --> 0:5:5.580 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:5:6.300 --> 0:5:9.660 Jacob M. But but but linguistically we only spoke English in the school. 0:5:10.710 --> 0:5:18.550 Jacob M. And you know, I I've served a number of my Francophone colleagues learning, learning to speak English rather rapidly, which is impressive. 0:5:18.890 --> 0:5:19.810 Elliot Douglas Yeah, it is. 0:5:21.510 --> 0:5:26.390 Elliot Douglas Do you remember like, angle phones and francophones dating each other during that time as well? 0:5:26.280 --> 0:5:29.280 Jacob M. Well, I'm sure they I'm sure they didn't. I sure they did, rather. 0:5:30.640 --> 0:5:44.320 Jacob M. Nothing comes to mind, but I'm sure they did. My my wife is from Quebec City. Her mother was francophone. So there's an example of a francophone marrying an anglophone in Quebec City, quite, quite a long time ago. 0:5:47.120 --> 0:5:49.200 Jacob M. But dates. I was married a t the time. I really. 0:5:50.840 --> 0:5:58.400 Jacob M. And even though I really haven't had much interest in the girls in the class other than as classmates, we're all. We're all equals. 0:5:58.810 --> 0:5:59.770 Elliot Douglas Yeah no of course. 0:6:0.170 --> 0:6:2.370 Jacob M. It changed things quite a bit for me. 0:6:2.880 --> 0:6:5.200 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Were you like? 0:6:6.520 --> 0:6:10.800 Elliot Douglas Were a lot of the people in the programme younger or were they older or was like the age is pretty mixed? 0:6:18.670 --> 0:6:18.870 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:6:24.80 --> 0:6:24.680 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:6:11.790 --> 0:6:26.270 Jacob M. Well, they're mostly younger. I I consider myself older. 'cause. I had a career before going to law school. I was maybe three years older than everybody else. I think I was 26 when I entered law school, which seemed antique at the time. 0:6:26.580 --> 0:6:26.660 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:6:27.630 --> 0:6:38.950 Jacob M. Most of them would be in their early 20s. I remember only one person. There was a man named BG. I remember the name who must have been 40 and he looked to us like he was a grandfather. 0:6:41.50 --> 0:6:41.850 Elliot Douglas Oh my goodness. 0:6:43.350 --> 0:6:44.230 Elliot Douglas What made you choose? 0:6:43.450 --> 0:6:52.290 Jacob M. But he finished law school. He'll ended up with the, I think, with the Labour Relations Board in in, in, in Vancouver and British Columbia. 0:6:53.680 --> 0:6:53.880 Jacob M. Mm hmm. 0:6:52.750 --> 0:6:57.110 Elliot Douglas Wow, that's cool. What made you choose to go to Ottawa for law school? 0:6:59.160 --> 0:7:14.120 Jacob M. We debated that quite a bit. I was working as an engineer in Ottawa. My wife had a job and I’d had I'd had acceptances at the UofT and Queens, for example, but we we were settled in Ottawa, just didn't make any sense to to leave Ottawa. 0:7:14.510 --> 0:7:14.710 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:7:15.880 --> 0:7:23.720 Jacob M. It was just too much bother for my wife to find another job, in another city, another place to live, etcetera, etcetera. So we just stayed put. 0:7:24.650 --> 0:7:28.850 Elliot Douglas Course. Well, yeah. That's one of the top law schools today, so made a good choice. 0:7:30.230 --> 0:7:34.630 Jacob M. I I didn't realise is it. Is it considered when the top law schools now really that's interesting. 0:7:33.740 --> 0:7:38.420 Elliot Douglas Yeah, I think it's. I think it's in the top five in Canada actually, so it's. 0:7:37.670 --> 0:7:48.950 Jacob M. Really realise that it's fascinating 'cause when you entered UofO law school, I might have mentioned this in a note to you. I think it was considerably the easiest law schools in Canada to get into. 0:7:49.190 --> 0:7:50.30 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:7:50.620 --> 0:7:56.700 Jacob M. But at the same time, what people didn't know. We were all shocked with the failure rate was 1/3. 0:7:58.380 --> 0:7:58.820 Elliot Douglas Wow 0:7:58.170 --> 0:8:9.650 Jacob M. And it really it really was 1/3, the Dean said to us, look to your left, look to your right. One of you won't be here next year. And that was correct. So it's easy to get into, hard to get out of. 0:8:10.130 --> 0:8:11.770 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Wow. 0:8:11.250 --> 0:8:13.970 Jacob M. Was a good law school, in retrospect was a great law school. 0:8:14.990 --> 0:8:18.270 Jacob M. But for some of us from that time period, it was also pretty. 0:8:19.630 --> 0:8:20.790 Jacob M. Rather a frightening experience. 0:8:21.330 --> 0:8:22.490 Elliot Douglas Yeah, I bet. 0:8:23.540 --> 0:8:27.940 Elliot Douglas Do you remember any of the classes that you were taking at the time, or was there any that particularly interest you? 0:8:29.420 --> 0:8:41.660 Jacob M. Actually, I found that they were all interesting to me. I liked land law with, with, with Dean, Dean Feeney, the Dean. I did torts with the man named Sussman contracts with Professor Granger. 0:8:43.720 --> 0:8:58.240 Jacob M. Personal property with someone named Leslie Shaw. The rest it was all of it was interesting because we were learning how the law works and how precedent, how, how precedent works and governs in the in, in the common law legal system. 0:8:58.760 --> 0:9:3.600 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. How did you find like the ratio of male to female professors was at the time. 0:9:9.40 --> 0:9:11.680 Jacob M. I only remember one female professor ever. 0:9:13.40 --> 0:9:14.520 Jacob M. A lady named I think was Janet Reed. 0:9:16.580 --> 0:9:30.660 Jacob M. I made for it was Barbara Reed Reid, whose husband I happen to know. I forgot what she taught. But she taught. I think she came in after I finished first year. But she taught at U of O want to say constitutional law. 0:9:32.300 --> 0:9:44.820 Jacob M. Other than that, there may have been one or two other women teaching, but they were the exception. Even in the class, the class was about when I graduated, is what maybe maybe 20% women at that time. 0:9:46.550 --> 0:9:47.110 Elliot Douglas That's still. 0:9:46.650 --> 0:9:48.970 Jacob M. But now like it's 5050 now. 0:9:49.350 --> 0:9:49.550 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:9:51.370 --> 0:9:55.410 Elliot Douglas That's still pretty impressive for the time too, like 20%, that's. 0:9:54.470 --> 0:9:58.270 Jacob M. We don't think of it like we don't think of it at the time, but yes, I I guess it was. 0:9:58.510 --> 0:9:59.70 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:10:0.450 --> 0:10:3.890 Jacob M. I think there were twelve women in my class, my graduating class. 0:10:5.160 --> 0:10:5.400 Jacob M. Out of. 0:10:4.130 --> 0:10:6.610 Elliot Douglas Wow. How big was your graduating class? 0:10:6.980 --> 0:10:10.180 Jacob M. I I want to say 65, 60 to 65. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.640 Jacob M. This is probably small compared to now. 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.120 Elliot Douglas Yeah, I'm not sure what the graduating class is for. The law school size. 0:10:17.900 --> 0:10:22.700 Jacob M. I I don't know anymore. It could be 180, it could be 250. I don't know anymore. 0:10:23.220 --> 0:10:23.340 Elliot Douglas Hmm. 0:10:24.750 --> 0:10:32.590 Elliot Douglas Do you remember the student body making any statements about the Vietnam War? If you were in the law school, I bet that might have been a little bit of a hot topic for you guys. 0:10:34.210 --> 0:10:49.130 Jacob M. I think the Vietnam War was pretty much cooled. I lived in the US that that's a separate issue where obviously I know all about the the Vietnam War. I was there as a Canadian in the US as a Canadian. So I was free of any draft possibilities. 0:10:51.70 --> 0:10:56.910 Jacob M. UofO at the time. No, except except the opposition. But nothing, nothing in particular. 0:10:58.170 --> 0:11:2.730 Elliot Douglas What was your experience like as a Canadian going to school in the US during the 60s and 70s? 0:11:4.260 --> 0:11:12.380 Jacob M. I was there from 1968 to 1970. Basically, when you crossed, at least in those days when you cross the border, Canada disappeared. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.880 Jacob M. Nobody knew anything about Canada and they didn't care. 0:11:17.940 --> 0:11:19.340 Jacob M. Except I had a funny accent. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:22.560 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:29.800 Jacob M. For for some of the many hell. But I saw demonstrations, you know, students running across the MIT campus yelling what? 0:11:30.820 --> 0:11:33.900 Jacob M. Ho ho, Ho Chi Minh. The NLF is going to win. 0:11:34.300 --> 0:11:35.60 Elliot Douglas Oh my goodness. 0:11:35.510 --> 0:11:39.350 Jacob M. It's a massive people in late late 1969. 0:11:39.780 --> 0:11:40.420 Elliot Douglas Wow. 0:11:40.740 --> 0:11:42.380 Jacob M. So there's a lot going on there. 0:11:42.930 --> 0:11:43.450 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm mm hmm. 0:11:48.560 --> 0:11:48.760 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:11:43.420 --> 0:12:2.660 Jacob M. I went to a lecture once by Bobby Seale, who was a Black Panther. He was yelling at us, telling us to go to, go to and demonstrate and get to get on the streets and and riot. Remember, I I sat there listening to him. It was called the Kresge Auditorium at MIT. I thought, I can't do that. I've got homework to do. 0:12:5.970 --> 0:12:7.850 Elliot Douglas Yeah, MIT. You must have been pretty busy. 0:12:10.300 --> 0:12:10.780 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:12:8.650 --> 0:12:15.530 Jacob M. I was we were extremely busy, although you as a UofO law student, I was. I was busy and much the same way. 0:12:16.150 --> 0:12:16.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:17.360 Jacob M. Very much so. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:25.480 Elliot Douglas That's that's really interesting too like that. You went down there and then came back up. Interesting. 0:12:25.610 --> 0:12:27.90 Jacob M. At at that time. 0:12:29.290 --> 0:12:35.210 Jacob M. I was in engineering the jobs for engineers about that time were were sparse. 0:12:36.770 --> 0:12:41.410 Jacob M. Changed since then and I'm not sure I want to stay in the US I just didn't feel all that comfortable there. 0:12:42.510 --> 0:12:43.430 Elliot Douglas Yeah, that's. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:51.400 Jacob M. I I could have, I think if I'd stay there a third year that I would never have come home, I would have gone into law. But I would never have come back back home to Canada. 0:12:52.110 --> 0:12:52.310 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:12:56.20 --> 0:13:1.980 Elliot Douglas Was there any other like American students there? What was the international student culture like at U Ottawa at the time that you were here? 0:13:2.840 --> 0:13:6.240 Jacob M. I can't speak for the whole university, but at in the law school. 0:13:8.990 --> 0:13:12.70 Jacob M. It was one fellow of Chinese ancestry. 0:13:13.470 --> 0:13:19.70 Jacob M. Who I it may have been, would have to be Hong Kong. At that time. I remember him learning English. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:19.960 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:13:20.330 --> 0:13:30.170 Jacob M. His name? I think his name was SY. Y—-weather he became a S. I don't know, but he he was the only I would say non Canadian in the school, in the law school. 0:13:32.630 --> 0:13:36.830 Elliot Douglas So it was. It was mainly Canadians that were there then. 0:13:40.70 --> 0:13:40.790 Elliot Douglas Oh yeah. 0:13:37.250 --> 0:13:41.490 Jacob M. I think entirely at least I'm just speaking for the law school at that time. 0:13:42.150 --> 0:13:42.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:48.520 Jacob M. And I I think I think in America wanting to go to law school would have would have wanted to go to an American law school. 0:13:49.490 --> 0:13:49.690 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.280 Jacob M. Of which there are many, many many many. 0:13:51.790 --> 0:13:55.710 Elliot Douglas Yeah, it's a little harder in Canada, we don't have quite as many options as they do down there. 0:13:55.670 --> 0:13:56.550 Jacob M. No. 0:14:0.0 --> 0:14:10.720 Elliot Douglas Some youth cultural voices of the 1970s talked about taking like recreational drugs. Do you remember anyone that you knew partaking in that or talking about it? 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.720 Elliot Douglas Or the student body releasing any statements about it. 0:14:13.970 --> 0:14:20.530 Jacob M. Oh, I'm, I've. I've. Always been a straight. I've never. I've never used marijuana, for example, I don't drink. 0:14:21.100 --> 0:14:21.540 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:14:22.90 --> 0:14:28.410 Jacob M. So I'm probably boring in that respect. I don't remember anybody using any, any recreational drug. 0:14:30.190 --> 0:14:31.510 Jacob M. There was a Tavern nearby. 0:14:32.860 --> 0:14:35.540 Jacob M. And a lot of the guys would go to the Tavern. 0:14:36.810 --> 0:14:52.90 Jacob M. Fairly often, but so the only drug of choice that I was I was aware of at the time would be alcohol. I wasn't aware of anybody using marijuana, magic mushrooms, LSD, cocaine. Nothing. Nothing at all. 0:14:53.290 --> 0:14:54.130 Jacob M. That I knew of. 0:14:53.370 --> 0:14:57.130 Elliot Douglas Do you remember the do you remember the name of the Tavern by chance? 0:14:58.30 --> 0:15:4.510 Jacob M. Oh, why was the owl began? I think it's disappeared. It's across the street from where? The courthouse in Ottawa used to be. 0:15:5.40 --> 0:15:5.920 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:15:8.230 --> 0:15:8.350 Elliot Douglas Huh. 0:15:6.270 --> 0:15:13.70 Jacob M. You have to look to look it up. Was the ALBION Tavern. It had two entrances, one for men and one for women. 0:15:13.650 --> 0:15:14.570 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:15:14.410 --> 0:15:16.90 Jacob M. It was a different era in Ontario. 0:15:16.620 --> 0:15:21.260 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Yeah. So would you say that was a pretty common student hangout spot then? 0:15:22.710 --> 0:15:23.190 Elliot Douglas Do you think? 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.120 Jacob M. Maybe for some I I don't know how much hanging out anybody ever did. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:30.760 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:15:30.370 --> 0:15:32.130 Jacob M. Because we were kept so busy with. 0:15:33.130 --> 0:15:42.530 Jacob M. With going to, going to school, then, especially in the first year, you would show up at 8:30 in the morning. You wouldn't get out till maybe 5 at night. Be classes all day. 0:15:44.30 --> 0:15:47.310 Jacob M. So we didn't have a lot of spare time, certainly in first year. 0:15:48.50 --> 0:15:48.250 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:15:49.430 --> 0:15:52.310 Elliot Douglas Sounds a little bit like today in some some regards. 0:15:52.730 --> 0:15:56.490 Jacob M. Yeah, I you know, I don't know what it was like today. I have no idea. Can't imagine. 0:16:3.40 --> 0:16:3.520 Jacob M. Yep, Yep. 0:15:57.290 --> 0:16:3.890 Elliot Douglas Yeah. So I think I'm gonna move on to the second section, if that's OK with you, so. 0:16:8.260 --> 0:16:8.780 Jacob M. Yes. 0:16:5.130 --> 0:16:22.290 Elliot Douglas Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, which is a part of the counterculture movement. Women during the 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience at the University of Ottawa? Would you say that there was a lot of feminist second wave feminist stuff going on? Any demonstrations? 0:16:21.710 --> 0:16:25.670 Jacob M. So what was the 1st way Betty Friedan people like that? 0:16:25.970 --> 0:16:26.410 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:16:27.110 --> 0:16:27.590 Jacob M. OK. 0:16:30.450 --> 0:16:39.770 Jacob M. Not a lot, but we were aware that the women in our class maybe would not be treated as well in the by the profession in the profession as men. 0:16:41.130 --> 0:17:3.770 Jacob M. I'm a bit of a funny background. I was ten years old. My father died, so I had A, had a mother who worked 'cause. I had a working wife also, and so I was always especially for my mother, pretty keen that women be advanced. My mother had a job where she she would train men to do whatever the task was. And then these guys would be promoted over her. 0:17:4.450 --> 0:17:5.90 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:17:5.430 --> 0:17:7.750 Jacob M. Which frustrated her to really to no end. 0:17:9.60 --> 0:17:20.340 Jacob M. I don't remember a lot. I remember it may have been maybe the stronger second wave feminism in in the civil law section amongst the women there by some memory of that. 0:17:21.660 --> 0:17:23.460 Jacob M. If you can find one of the women from my class. 0:17:24.860 --> 0:17:28.940 Jacob M. That they can be a lot more articulate on this topic than I I can ever hope to be. 0:17:30.290 --> 0:17:31.930 Elliot Douglas Well, thank you for sharing a little bit. 0:17:33.350 --> 0:17:39.350 Elliot Douglas In your own words, what would you say feminism signified in Canada during that time? If you could pin it to anything? 0:17:42.510 --> 0:17:46.510 Jacob M. I don't wanna say daycare. I didn’t think about daycare until I became a father. 0:17:53.150 --> 0:17:53.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:17:48.250 --> 0:18:8.810 Jacob M. Just equal equal opportunities for women the same as men. If it's if a male could become a lawyer or a judge, then a female should be able to do the same thing, assuming equal talent equal equal ability. In other words, someone should not be held back really because they were a female woman and not a not a man. 0:18:9.530 --> 0:18:9.570 Elliot Douglas Mhmm 0:18:11.100 --> 0:18:11.860 Elliot Douglas Of Course. 0:18:11.110 --> 0:18:13.270 Jacob M. Very simplistic, but there there is. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:21.160 Jacob M. Yes. 0:18:16.330 --> 0:18:45.890 Elliot Douglas So we're gonna talk a little bit about ideological and generational differences just between your generation and your parents's generation a little bit. So historians have learned a lot about what they called counterculture revolution and everything which rebelled against the value of your parents's generation, a little bit more. To what extent do you remember people in your social circle or people around the university mobilising themself to change society a little bit; by protests or any other demonstrations? 0:18:47.930 --> 0:18:51.730 Jacob M. That was very low key at the time. I I won't say nonexistent. 0:18:53.190 --> 0:18:56.870 Jacob M. Maybe among some student groups it was a more powerful force. 0:19:3.780 --> 0:19:3.980 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:18:58.190 --> 0:19:11.390 Jacob M. But at UofO common law school at the time, I would say it was almost non existent. We we we did legal aid number of us. So we we represented people in in small claims court and traffic court in Ottawa. 0:19:12.660 --> 0:19:13.20 Jacob M. But. 0:19:15.340 --> 0:19:18.580 Jacob M. That was more of a social service function. We offered to people. 0:19:20.790 --> 0:19:22.990 Jacob M. I'm. I'm sorry, I can't help you more with that question. 0:19:23.80 --> 0:19:32.40 Elliot Douglas No, no, no worries. Do you remember any like big court cases that you learned about during your time at the law school that were related to any, like civil justice issues? 0:19:35.170 --> 0:19:40.610 Jacob M. I can't say. Do you mean court cases I read about or court cases at the time. 0:19:41.360 --> 0:19:46.360 Elliot Douglas Court cases that you maybe learned about in some of your classes or that were happening at the time. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.160 Jacob M. Happening at the time nothing. 0:19:50.650 --> 0:19:52.690 Jacob M. Not a heck of a lot comes to mind. 0:19:54.290 --> 0:19:56.970 Jacob M. There's a famous case called the Ron Corellian Duplessy. 0:19:58.230 --> 0:20:19.390 Jacob M. Which was gone according to Canada, or maybe in the 50s, that would be the closest thing to a human rights case at the time. Ronker Ron Chorelli was a was a Jehovah's Witness in de Plessy, de Plessy government in Quebec, wanted to close down the the attempts of the Jehovah's Witnesses from from seeking converts. 0:20:20.950 --> 0:20:32.110 Jacob M. At that time in Montreal, it was pretty common Ottawa, I don't know. But when I was home in Montreal, you get a knock at the door. It'd be somebody handing you somebody from Jehovah's Witnesses, handing you the watchtower. 0:20:33.360 --> 0:20:33.720 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.40 Jacob M. Which we say thank you very much and then that would be the end of it. 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:54.0 Jacob M. But I got the Premier de Plessy wasn't happy with that. At that point, Quebec was a very Roman Catholic province and I guess the, I guess, the fear was that the the Jehovah's Witnesses might undermine the religion of the time 50s and 60s in in Quebec. 0:20:55.700 --> 0:21:8.300 Elliot Douglas So uOttawa used to be a Catholic institution. Do you remember there being any debates or anything going on about the the reduction of control that the Catholic Church had on the institution? 0:21:11.380 --> 0:21:19.460 Jacob M. I would say close to zero. I think the law school was started by a priest, a father, Danny DANIS. 0:21:21.20 --> 0:21:38.20 Jacob M. Who was a very forward-looking man, but at the time, no, there's no, I wasn't aware of controlling institution by by anybody I was ever as a student was a pretty good institution. My only recollection is that a lot of the professors had a crucifix on their wall. 0:21:38.540 --> 0:21:38.820 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:21:39.390 --> 0:21:43.830 Jacob M. And I was the Roman Catholic, whatever. Certainly not at the time and. 0:21:45.450 --> 0:21:46.970 Jacob M. That's something I noticed. Put it that way. 0:21:48.550 --> 0:21:52.310 Elliot Douglas Do you remember there being a lot of religious diversity around the campus at the time? 0:21:53.110 --> 0:21:55.550 Jacob M. No, it would be Protestant, Catholic, Jewish. 0:21:56.770 --> 0:21:57.330 Jacob M. Period. 0:21:58.10 --> 0:21:58.250 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:21:58.980 --> 0:21:59.940 Jacob M. Muslims. 0:22:1.760 --> 0:22:3.40 Jacob M. I don't, I don't think so. 0:22:4.440 --> 0:22:6.160 Jacob M. Not not at that time anyways. 0:22:9.610 --> 0:22:21.10 Elliot Douglas Remember like what your parents's notions about like gender, family are dating was at the time you came to university. And how did your like generation their views kind of shift from that? 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.200 Jacob M. I really can't answer that question. When my father was dead. 0:22:28.420 --> 0:22:38.900 Jacob M. My mother never had much to say to me about people I dated, so I don't remember much of anything. I I'm pretty pretty blank on that question, for which I apologize. 0:22:39.100 --> 0:22:40.140 Elliot Douglas No worries. 0:22:41.650 --> 0:22:44.10 Elliot Douglas Sorry, I'm just taking a look at all the lists that we have. 0:22:44.270 --> 0:22:45.670 Jacob M. No, that's fine, that's fine. 0:22:50.410 --> 0:23:1.650 Elliot Douglas During like the 1970s, when you were at uOttawa, what aspects of Canadian decide society did you see, like most outdated or in need of like fixing or changing? 0:23:4.540 --> 0:23:7.780 Jacob M. There was very much what I perceive to be an old boys network. 0:23:8.950 --> 0:23:15.150 Jacob M. Amongst the lawyers in Ottawa, and even they didn't have access to the judges. But I presumed among them also. 0:23:15.990 --> 0:23:18.710 Jacob M. And I I felt that needed to be to be changed. 0:23:20.30 --> 0:23:45.70 Jacob M. At at the time, because it looked like to me as a if you're a part of the in Group, then you you might have a good success or whatever. But if you weren't and maybe more you, you could still get there to become a judge or you know, whatever, but it might be more difficult again. But I don't remember that ever being a very significant issue, not something that I thought about much, which maybe is just more of a reflection on me than than anything else. 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.0 Elliot Douglas That's very interesting. 0:23:50.970 --> 0:23:55.890 Elliot Douglas Did you feel like our political system at the time was democratic and fair and reasonable? 0:23:56.870 --> 0:24:0.390 Jacob M. At the time, absolutely. Oh sure. Absolutely, absolutely. 0:24:1.630 --> 0:24:3.550 Jacob M. Oh, beyond doubt beyond doubt. 0:24:7.870 --> 0:24:9.750 Elliot Douglas Sorry, I'm just looking at our list of questions. 0:24:9.530 --> 0:24:12.490 Jacob M. Well, let's find out. Please take your time. And this is fun. 0:24:20.340 --> 0:24:28.700 Elliot Douglas Do you remember the the law school hosting any events at the time for students? Any mixers or other events? 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:31.600 Jacob M. I'm sure there were. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.240 Jacob M. I don't. Yes, there was. There was a. 0:24:39.150 --> 0:24:42.390 Jacob M. I've forgotten about this. There was a club for it called Law Wives. 0:24:44.30 --> 0:24:51.310 Jacob M. There were a few of us in the class who were married and the Dean would meet with, with the, with our wives, maybe once or twice a year. 0:24:53.110 --> 0:25:8.390 Jacob M. Not quite a mixer, but otherwise you know it was a small group. We were all together on one floor and I think I think it was 165 Waller St it has a different name now I think. And we there's a common room there where we'd eat lunch and talk to each other, but. 0:25:9.200 --> 0:25:12.480 Jacob M. Beyond that, not really there. There were. There were teams, there would be. 0:25:13.500 --> 0:25:17.860 Jacob M. I was very, very sporty at the time. There was a hockey team, a football team. 0:25:19.230 --> 0:25:21.750 Jacob M. A lot of the guys and men, males. 0:25:23.90 --> 0:25:23.930 Jacob M. Played hockey. 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:34.760 Jacob M. They had their own own hockey. I don't know who they played against their own Hockey League, but some played basketball again, I didn't. I used to swim a little, but not very much. 0:25:36.450 --> 0:25:46.530 Elliot Douglas Do you remember? Like any big sports games that you went to like today we have the Panda Game, which is a big rivalry between Carlton and uOttawa. Was there anything like that? 0:25:45.950 --> 0:25:51.550 Jacob M. Again, this is more reflects more on me than I ignored it. I really had no interest. 0:25:52.100 --> 0:25:52.300 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:25:54.890 --> 0:25:56.50 Elliot Douglas No, need to apologize. 0:25:53.110 --> 0:25:58.70 Jacob M. I'm sorry, it just it did nothing for me. I'm sure it does for some people, but. 0:26:0.110 --> 0:26:9.310 Jacob M. One of my classmates, a man named LK who's an Ottawa, I think just retired as a very good Ottawa lawyer. I might add. He was on the football team. I remember that. 0:26:12.0 --> 0:26:22.40 Jacob M. But beyond, I don't know, there was someone else named TB who, who played on a hockey team. But I think that was purely an intramural within the law school. 0:26:22.390 --> 0:26:26.630 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. Were a lot of your classmates involved with sports around the school then? 0:26:27.0 --> 0:26:35.400 Jacob M. Yeah, probably more than me. Probably more than me. A lot played a lot of hockey. A lot of these got. I use the word guys on purpose. 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:37.600 Jacob M. I used to call them Ottawa Valley boys. 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.80 Jacob M. The people went to U of O typically were from Northern Ontario. 0:26:43.460 --> 0:26:46.380 Jacob M. Or or Eastern Ontario didn't want to go to Toronto law school. 0:26:47.390 --> 0:26:51.70 Jacob M. They’re from places like Perth Iron prior all those little towns around Ottawa. 0:26:52.700 --> 0:26:55.220 Jacob M. Many had gone through the high schools in Ottawa. 0:26:55.950 --> 0:26:56.470 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:26:58.110 --> 0:27:2.790 Jacob M. So that that that was the main catchment area for the full law school at the at the time. 0:27:3.810 --> 0:27:19.890 Jacob M. They went to what Saint Patrick's School or Saint Patrick's College, whatever it was, and and again, Ottawa Law High School's like, like Lisgar, and then others whose names I can't think of. So I didn't do high school in Ottawa. So it's it was all a bit of a mystery to me. 0:27:21.10 --> 0:27:26.410 Elliot Douglas Were you one of a few then that were from Montreal or did you know anyone else that went to the law school? 0:27:30.350 --> 0:27:34.870 Jacob M. I think I was the only one like that in my class that I can think of. There was someone in common law. 0:27:37.870 --> 0:27:38.350 Jacob M. Who? 0:27:38.370 --> 0:27:43.730 Jacob M. Who was from Montreal cuz he and I compared notes one day and we've gone through the same school system in Montreal. 0:27:44.860 --> 0:27:53.260 Jacob M. But though there were not a lot of Montrealers there at that time, I think Montreal would likely would likely want to go to McGill or or University Of Montreal. 0:27:55.590 --> 0:28:0.550 Elliot Douglas Of course. Do you remember there being other Canadians from other provinces at the law school? 0:28:2.220 --> 0:28:4.60 Jacob M. Well, as an engineering at McGill, yes. 0:28:22.590 --> 0:28:23.190 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:28:5.730 --> 0:28:28.250 Jacob M. I remember people from from Alberta in my engineering class. No, I don't. I can't. I only knew the law school and I don't remember anybody from Alberta. It was a great law school there and there are several. So people are going to University of Alberta, I guess now University of Calgary. I don't know where else they would tend to stay. Tend to want to stay in the West or maybe UBC. 0:28:29.70 --> 0:28:29.150 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:28:29.870 --> 0:28:37.190 Elliot Douglas It seems that there's a little bit less like travelling for people they don't. They didn't seem to go as far for school as people do nowadays. 0:28:37.100 --> 0:28:41.980 Jacob M. No, no. That may be University of Saskatchewan is also highly regarded. 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:43.160 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:28:42.860 --> 0:28:48.580 Jacob M. If we didn't, her judges had come out of the University of Saskatchewan. I don't know why out of that law school. 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:55.880 Elliot Douglas Did any of your classmates move on to become judges? I know you had mentioned one or two, but. 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:59.400 Jacob M. I'm trying to think who there was. There was some of the. 0:29:0.450 --> 0:29:6.450 Jacob M. C, C—————he became a judge, the Ontario Superior Court. 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:16.560 Jacob M. Somebody else became an Ontario judge, maybe PD. D——-. 0:29:16.580 --> 0:29:19.540 Jacob M. Also, Superior Court in Ontario, that would be about it. 0:29:21.650 --> 0:29:38.50 Jacob M. All for the people who became all those like. There's a third one, M——-, RM, who worked for the federal government as a civil servant and then became a federal court judge. He may still be on the federal court, which is headquartered in Ottawa, so a few. 0:29:39.890 --> 0:29:43.90 Jacob M. Often the people who became judges work for the civil service. 0:29:44.610 --> 0:29:50.290 Jacob M. Either Ontario or the Federal Service Civil Service. Not sure why that is, but that was that was just the case. 0:29:51.350 --> 0:29:53.590 Elliot Douglas Yeah. Proximity, potentially, but. 0:29:56.110 --> 0:29:56.390 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:57.480 Jacob M. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. It just seems to work out that way. Elliot Douglas gave the question warning, however the transcription did not pick it up. 0:30:23.480 --> 0:30:24.240 Jacob M. That's fine. 0:30:24.300 --> 0:30:29.780 Elliot Douglas To answer the questions, if they make you feel uncomfortable or skip the section entirely. 0:30:30.250 --> 0:30:31.290 Jacob M. Sure, that's fine. 0:30:31.900 --> 0:30:41.220 Elliot Douglas K So many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. Do you remember the university authorities putting anything out about women's safety? 0:30:44.310 --> 0:31:1.830 Jacob M. I I can't say that I do. I don't remember anything. As a matter of fact, I think there's there are always steps taken to help women get home at night, things like that from classes. But beyond that, I wasn't aware of anything. It it just wasn't. It wasn't an issue that I knew of at the time. 0:31:3.390 --> 0:31:7.790 Jacob M. I was married at the time. I'm still married 53 years later, the same woman. 0:31:10.230 --> 0:31:13.470 Jacob M. I never sexually harassed anybody and had no interest in it. 0:31:14.20 --> 0:31:14.260 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:31:27.710 --> 0:31:27.790 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:31:15.30 --> 0:31:30.510 Jacob M. I I got along very well with with the women that I I worked with whether U of O or my life as a lawyer just wasn't an issue for me. Some of the other guys, I have no idea what they were up to and they're not going to come and tell me. I never heard anything I can tell you that. 0:31:33.90 --> 0:31:49.370 Elliot Douglas Our generation is quite interested in the idea of the free love movement that was pretty popular during the time. What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? Was it viewed negatively, positively, or was it just not really discussed? 0:31:49.910 --> 0:31:52.230 Jacob M. Like I think it's probably if you viewed positively. 0:31:53.230 --> 0:31:57.110 Jacob M. At at that's my memory from from the time. 0:31:58.130 --> 0:32:2.650 Jacob M. So premarital sex was considered not, not really not surprising. 0:32:3.520 --> 0:32:3.840 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:32:5.500 --> 0:32:8.660 Elliot Douglas Did members of your parents's generation worry about it at all, do you think? 0:32:9.970 --> 0:32:10.930 Jacob M. I'm sure they did. 0:32:13.40 --> 0:32:15.600 Jacob M. I'm sure, especially my my mother's my my wife's parents. 0:32:17.910 --> 0:32:19.430 Jacob M. It was never a big issue. 0:32:20.350 --> 0:32:20.550 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:32:20.110 --> 0:32:22.750 Jacob M. Was never, never talked about it very much. Put it that way. 0:32:25.650 --> 0:32:25.770 Jacob M. Umm. 0:32:28.70 --> 0:32:29.830 Jacob M. I had a roommate at MIT. 0:32:30.650 --> 0:32:36.410 Jacob M. Who? You know, he used to, we used to bring his girlfriend in every so often we would disappear. 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:43.520 Jacob M. But I never thought a great deal of it. It's just just the way it was. 0:32:45.540 --> 0:32:55.660 Elliot Douglas This is sort of related to that, but even at McGill, like, what was your experience living on residence if you did live on residence or at MIT, what was that kind of culture like at the time? 0:32:55.970 --> 0:33:7.770 Jacob M. At MIT, I'll start with McGill. I lived at home at McGill. I wrote the wrote a bus to school every day at McGill. I don't remember much of anything at MIT. Again, not much of anything. 0:33:9.310 --> 0:33:18.350 Jacob M. I remember my my wife then wife once came to visit me at MIT. No wife, and she stayed at women's residence at MIT, and I visited her in the residence. 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:23.160 Jacob M. Nobody thought anything of it, so I was leaving there at 2:00 in the morning or whatever. 0:33:25.770 --> 0:33:32.690 Elliot Douglas Did you notice any differences in the residents like qualities from the females, residents or the male residents? Or would they pretty much the same, would you say? 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:38.640 Jacob M. I never saw much of the women's residence at MIT I lived in a in a. 0:33:41.650 --> 0:33:47.810 Jacob M. The other I lived in a residence which is also both male and female. This is on the MIT campus. 0:33:49.340 --> 0:34:1.260 Jacob M. The women were one area. We were men were in another area, but the women's residence persay. I'm like it was a graduate residence. The undergraduate residence. I don't it look. It looked nice to me, but I never saw much of it. 0:34:9.590 --> 0:34:9.710 Jacob M. MIT. 0:34:4.760 --> 0:34:11.560 Elliot Douglas Was there a lot of like different languages spoken at MIT? Did you find, or was it primarily English? Yeah. 0:34:15.10 --> 0:34:19.490 Jacob M. I would say entirely English, no, no foreign languages at all. 0:34:20.890 --> 0:34:24.890 Jacob M. There were people, there was at MIT, there was a dormitory called Russian House. 0:34:26.290 --> 0:34:29.850 Jacob M. Where people there again mostly males spoke Russian to each other. 0:34:30.700 --> 0:34:30.860 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:34:32.830 --> 0:34:33.390 Elliot Douglas Random. 0:34:34.310 --> 0:34:39.150 Jacob M. Kind of random at Harvard at the time. There's a very good Chinese programme. 0:34:40.300 --> 0:34:42.940 Jacob M. Were Caucasians would learn, we'll learn Chinese. 0:34:44.590 --> 0:34:57.150 Jacob M. And I happened at the time at MIT to have a Chinese roommate for about a year, and he said he met some of the people from Harvard once. He said if he closed his eyes, he wouldn't know they were. They were. They were not, not not Asian. 0:34:58.830 --> 0:35:2.230 Jacob M. Is there ability to speak like probably Mandarin? Was that good? 0:35:3.200 --> 0:35:3.680 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:35:6.390 --> 0:35:10.710 Elliot Douglas At MIT, how did you find the like? The gender diversity there? 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:13.800 Jacob M. MIT, mostly male. 0:35:15.10 --> 0:35:16.570 Jacob M. No diversity at all. 0:35:17.310 --> 0:35:17.510 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:35:17.970 --> 0:35:25.90 Jacob M. And and no, no discussion with all of anybody, of any, any sexuality other than straight. 0:35:26.720 --> 0:35:27.360 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:35:26.330 --> 0:35:32.610 Jacob M. I wasn't aware of anybody was homosexual or lesbian or gay. Nothing at all at MIT at the time. 0:35:34.70 --> 0:35:34.870 Jacob M. Years later. 0:35:33.750 --> 0:35:35.270 Elliot Douglas When you were at uOttawa, you're. 0:35:36.20 --> 0:35:39.980 Jacob M. I don't remember anything there at all, ever. Everybody appeared to be straight. 0:35:41.340 --> 0:35:47.660 Jacob M. Many years later, I joined the Ottawa YMCA downtown, which is known as the Gay Y. 0:35:48.220 --> 0:35:51.340 Jacob M. Which is, you know, different place, nice people, but just a different place, that's all. 0:35:53.690 --> 0:35:59.210 Jacob M. But quite different from what I saw in the dormitories at at, at heart, at MIT or or. 0:36:0.950 --> 0:36:3.230 Jacob M. MIT basically, it's the only place I ever lived in a dorm. 0:36:4.440 --> 0:36:6.600 Jacob M. UofO of I lived with my wife in a house. 0:36:8.760 --> 0:36:20.520 Elliot Douglas Do you remember what, like the what? Did you have any friends outside of the school that were part of the LGBTQ plus community, or do you remember there being a big LGBTQ plus community in Ottawa? 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:27.120 Jacob M. I think if it existed, it was all very covert. I wasn't aware of anything at at all. 0:36:28.130 --> 0:36:28.330 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:36:29.260 --> 0:36:34.220 Jacob M. No, I do remember someone. No, I remember. I remember 1. I won't. I won't mention his name. 0:36:44.250 --> 0:36:44.330 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:36:35.660 --> 0:36:57.20 Jacob M. There was one actually. I got along very well with him. We were quite friendly with each other. There was one gay, one man I knew was gay at the time, and he had a friend at law school that I suspected was also gay. But we we never talked about it. I just we just tease each other. But every nothing about sex. But but everything else about politics in Quebec and whatever. 0:36:57.850 --> 0:36:58.90 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:36:57.340 --> 0:37:2.420 Jacob M. He's the only one who comes to mind. He sadly died of AIDS. 0:37:3.380 --> 0:37:6.300 Jacob M. In in 80, 85 or something. 0:37:7.220 --> 0:37:14.940 Jacob M. And I got. I got a scholarship going in his name and UofO law school, which is still. I won't. I won't mention the name but the scholarship is still there. 0:37:15.650 --> 0:37:17.170 Elliot Douglas Wow, that's phenomenal. 0:37:17.810 --> 0:37:21.90 Jacob M. We will raise money so I didn't want his name to be forgotten. 0:37:22.20 --> 0:37:24.380 Elliot Douglas Of course, that's amazing. 0:37:26.290 --> 0:37:35.170 Jacob M. But you're reminding me of things I haven't thought about in years. There was someone else I ever suspected was gay, but I learned 40 years later, what was gay. 0:37:36.300 --> 0:37:36.500 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.360 Jacob M. Somebody else being somebody else in my law school. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.660 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:37:41.390 --> 0:37:44.350 Jacob M. But at the time I, you know, I wasn't part of that community. 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:47.980 Jacob M. I just there's just no involvement. 0:37:49.940 --> 0:37:50.300 Jacob M. Pre. 0:37:48.590 --> 0:37:52.910 Elliot Douglas Yeah. What was the attitude towards it on campus? If you can remember at all? 0:37:55.170 --> 0:38:9.690 Jacob M. I I can't speak for the campus. I just speak for myself. I just. I didn't think much of it. I well, I just not something I ever thought about much. I knew this one guy I knew to be gay or guessed was gay. He was friendly. I was friendly. He was a good guy. 0:38:10.290 --> 0:38:10.690 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:38:11.330 --> 0:38:20.130 Jacob M. I never tried to analyse it beyond that. I never doubted that, you know, he was a nice person. He's honest, ethical, truthful. None of that would ever occur to me. 0:38:22.430 --> 0:38:24.710 Elliot Douglas Do you remember nowadays? 0:38:27.140 --> 0:38:27.300 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:38:25.700 --> 0:38:29.980 Jacob M. I'm probably too simple. That's beside the point. Or two accepting of people I don't know which. 0:38:30.30 --> 0:38:36.910 Elliot Douglas No, no, that's wonderful. But nowadays we have like Gsa’s and. 0:38:37.260 --> 0:38:40.500 Jacob M. Can I just hold you off on something? 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:50.920 Jacob M. Some people in the actually a woman in particular had A won't mention the term one of one of my women classmates had a negative term to describe my friend who was gay. 0:38:52.620 --> 0:38:53.380 Jacob M. Which I knew. 0:38:55.0 --> 0:38:56.360 Jacob M. Which I won't repeat but but. 0:38:57.70 --> 0:38:57.310 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:38:57.430 --> 0:39:2.790 Jacob M. I again, you're bringing back memories and I like I not repressed, just forgotten. 0:39:3.210 --> 0:39:3.770 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:39:5.160 --> 0:39:8.960 Elliot Douglas If you don't mind me asking, was your friend pretty open about his sexuality or? 0:39:10.780 --> 0:39:19.740 Jacob M. No, he's just one of these people. You'd meet him and talk to him. And if you had any gaydar at all, which I I didn't even know the term at the time. But even though he's gay. 0:39:21.990 --> 0:39:24.910 Jacob M. Whereas the other two fellows who were gay in my class. I had no idea. 0:39:27.100 --> 0:39:39.140 Elliot Douglas Interesting. Nowadays we have a lot of, like gay straight alliances or like clubs and stuff that are intended for gay students. You remember there being anything like that on campus at the time or any of the campuses you went to? 0:39:40.70 --> 0:39:43.990 Jacob M. Absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. Just wasn't an issue. 0:39:44.850 --> 0:39:46.210 Jacob M. Was not an issue at all. 0:39:47.260 --> 0:40:9.380 Jacob M. I I might, I can tell you one more thing I've been exposed to a lot of gay. I had a job in French and English. I'll have you know I was a salesman in Montreal one summer in a downtown department store. But we had quite a few gay. We were selling menswear, men's clothing and quite a few gay men would come through there to buy clothing. So I had an awareness. They were out there. 0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:15.440 Jacob M. But again, they, you know, they treated me well. I treated them. They were customers, so. 0:40:16.580 --> 0:40:17.540 Elliot Douglas Yeah, of course. 0:40:18.330 --> 0:40:24.890 Jacob M. So I had an awareness that, you know, it was a gay population out there, but the extent of it what they were doing by no idea. 0:40:27.860 --> 0:40:34.20 Elliot Douglas Oh, that's really interesting and that it's a really great view that you had at the time too, definitely. 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:38.360 Jacob M. It probably comes from my mother, who very much just felt that. 0:40:43.30 --> 0:40:43.70 Elliot Douglas M. 0:40:40.530 --> 0:40:52.370 Jacob M. We we live and let live. My mother worked as a librarian in in a, in a, in a library at Montreal University, and a lot of the students, a lot of her students, students she would see were gay. 0:40:53.580 --> 0:40:55.780 Jacob M. She’d mention that to me, from time to time. 0:40:56.720 --> 0:40:56.840 Elliot Douglas Hmm. 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:1.80 Elliot Douglas Do you remember there being anything different about? 0:41:2.640 --> 0:41:9.720 Elliot Douglas Like McGill or MIT, with like any gay students or anything, was there any rumours of such or? 0:41:13.70 --> 0:41:13.230 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:41:10.430 --> 0:41:14.150 Jacob M. No, I'm not aware of anything I'm not aware of anything at all. 0:41:15.230 --> 0:41:15.950 Elliot Douglas No worries. 0:41:22.50 --> 0:41:22.410 Elliot Douglas Yeah. 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:31.640 Jacob M. But I think in MIT it would have just whatever the prevailing American attitude at the time would be. What applied, which I may not have had that attitude because I was basically bringing Canadian values with me. But I had an American roommate also once, and it was. 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:35.40 Jacob M. We never talked about it. 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:40.600 Elliot Douglas No, that's so interesting. 0:41:43.530 --> 0:41:45.490 Elliot Douglas Yeah, OK, I think. 0:41:48.890 --> 0:41:51.170 Elliot Douglas Sorry, I'm just going back through making sure. 0:41:50.470 --> 0:42:2.230 Jacob M. Well, please don't forget you asked all the questions if you want to come back and ask the refreshing questions or that's fine, but you're your prompting thoughts. I haven't you know, areas I haven't thought about in years. 0:42:3.440 --> 0:42:4.400 Elliot Douglas I'm glad to hear it. 0:42:6.40 --> 0:42:11.680 Elliot Douglas Do you remember anything about the music that was happening at the time? Like what kind of music were you and your wife listening to? 0:42:14.720 --> 0:42:17.760 Jacob M. My wife listened to a lot of music. I don't know what she was listening to. 0:42:19.260 --> 0:42:26.340 Jacob M. I I'm not very musical. I never had much interest in music. I'm embarrassed to say we went, we went to libu a few times to hear music. 0:42:26.750 --> 0:42:26.950 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:42:27.700 --> 0:42:31.940 Jacob M. Uh, if there's a concert somewhere in the city outdoor concert, we may go to that. 0:42:33.510 --> 0:42:35.710 Jacob M. But I don't remember a lot about music. 0:42:37.660 --> 0:42:41.740 Elliot Douglas Do you remember anything about, like, big movies that came out at the time or any TV shows? 0:42:43.270 --> 0:42:45.150 Jacob M. TV well TV shows. 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:55.440 Jacob M. I remember roots came out of that time, about the black experience in the US. 0:42:55.600 --> 0:43:1.120 Jacob M. There were movies. There are movies about the Holocaust. Well, that came out later. I'm sorry. Roots came out during. 0:43:2.460 --> 0:43:11.580 Jacob M. I think I'm wrong. The roots, the Holocaust movie and the Roots movie came out afterwards. The only thing I can think of, I saw it. I saw the movie Fiddler on the roof in Ottawa. 0:43:11.870 --> 0:43:12.470 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:43:12.900 --> 0:43:15.20 Jacob M. Maybe after second year of law school, something like that. 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:24.40 Elliot Douglas Do you remember there being a lot of black students at the University of Ottawa, or just generally? Was there like a lot of black people around the city? 0:43:24.490 --> 0:43:25.970 Jacob M. Yeah, we had one. 0:43:26.810 --> 0:43:30.650 Jacob M. In in our class with there was one black, one black guy, one black fellow. 0:43:33.740 --> 0:43:41.260 Jacob M. Generally speaking, no. A lot of not a lot of black people in this city at at that time. It was very, very, very white at the time. 0:43:48.410 --> 0:43:51.90 Elliot Douglas Okay, I think that might be. 0:43:53.300 --> 0:44:1.300 Elliot Douglas All the questions to go through, is there anything else you'd like to add at all about your experience at U Ottawa or your other institutions? 0:44:4.900 --> 0:44:5.260 Elliot Douglas Yep, Yep, Yep. 0:44:2.390 --> 0:44:5.750 Jacob M. I think you've got the whole pretty much the whole story. 0:44:5.790 --> 0:44:15.110 Jacob M. And you know, I hope this this recording will be of some use to you and to others. As I mentioned, 10 years after I die, show anybody who wants to see it the video but. 0:44:17.370 --> 0:44:20.370 Jacob M. I've been. That's why I haven't mentioned anybody, but by name in any event. 0:44:21.670 --> 0:44:26.950 Jacob M. Just preserve confidences and some some secrecy. But no, I have nothing further to add. 0:44:27.780 --> 0:44:30.580 Elliot Douglas Of course. Thank you so much. I'm just gonna end the recording really quick. 0:44:30.910 --> 0:44:31.710 Jacob M. That's fine. Transcription Translation 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.760 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:0:2.740 --> 0:0:10.20 Elliot Douglas Nous sommes le vendredi 20 octobre 2023. C'est Elliot Douglas qui interviewe Jacob M. pour l'entretien sur la vie sur le campus. 0:0:11.520 --> 0:0:14.520 Elliot Douglas Nous allons donc commencer par la première partie des questions. 0:0:19.600 --> 0:0:41.400 Elliot Douglas Les historiens de la culture ont donc soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation se sont beaucoup construits autour des automobiles au cours de la culture nord-américaine. À l'époque, Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulions mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones travaillaient ensemble à l'école. Il y avait donc moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment vos loisirs étaient-ils structurés ? 0:0:43.480 --> 0:0:45.200 Jacob M. Euh, principalement avec ma femme. 0:0:46.250 --> 0:0:54.530 Jacob M. Je ne pense pas que j'avais vraiment du temps libre, mais nous faisions du patin à glace et nous rendions visite à nos amis. C'est tout ce que les gens font habituellement. 0:0:55.60 --> 0:0:55.380 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:0:55.890 --> 0:1:2.250 Jacob M. C'est ce que nous faisons. Nous sommes originaires de Montréal, alors nous retournons à Montréal une fois par mois pour rendre visite à nos parents. 0:1:3.820 --> 0:1:7.380 Jacob M. Comme c'était le cas, c'est en fait Tout compte fait, assez calme. 0:1:8.440 --> 0:1:14.360 Elliot Douglas Oui, vous patiniez surtout sur le canal Rideau, et tout le reste ? 0:1:11.960 --> 0:1:16.320 Jacob M. Oui, oui, oui, oui, je pense que j'ai presque cassé mon. 0:1:17.450 --> 0:1:22.650 Jacob M. Je crois que je me suis presque cassé une partie de l'épaule dans le canal Rideau lorsque j'ai patiné dans une ornière. Je m'en souviens. 0:1:22.900 --> 0:1:23.740 Elliot Douglas Oh mon Dieu. 0:1:33.980 --> 0:1:34.660 Elliot Douglas Oh non. 0:1:24.430 --> 0:1:36.550 Jacob M. Si vous patinez sur la canalisation, il y avait une grosse ornière au milieu en hiver. Elle n'existe probablement plus, mais j'ai réussi à atterrir dedans par accident, j'ai attrapé mon patin et j'ai basculé. 0:1:37.30 --> 0:1:37.910 Elliot Douglas Oh mon Dieu. 0:1:39.550 --> 0:1:43.310 Elliot Douglas Oui, je suis. Je suis curieux de voir. J'espère qu'il gèlera encore cette année, mais... 0:1:44.770 --> 0:2:2.330 Jacob M. Même lorsque j'habitais à Ottawa, ce qui remonte à quelques années, nous avons quitté Ottawa en 1985. Mais même à cette époque, il y avait une fête d'hiver, mais certaines années, il fallait presque l'annuler parce qu'il n'y avait pas assez de glace sur le canal. Ce n'est donc pas un phénomène nouveau, malheureusement. 0:2:2.810 --> 0:2:7.410 Elliot Douglas Oui. Alors, à quoi ressemblait la fête de l'hiver ? Qu'est-ce qui s'y passait, si vous vous en souvenez ? 0:2:7.90 --> 0:2:15.50 Jacob M. Non, non, je me souviens. Je me souviens de petites cabanes ou de huttes le long de la glace où l'on pouvait se changer, mettre ses patins. 0:2:16.490 --> 0:2:19.930 Jacob M. Nous avions l'habitude d'aller manger à l'hôtel Lord Elgin. Je m'en souviens. 0:2:21.690 --> 0:2:31.730 Jacob M. J'ai oublié le nom de certains parcs d'Ottawa, mais nous avons marché du canal jusqu'à Lori Elgin pour prendre un café et des muffins, quelque chose de très prosaïque. 0:2:32.70 --> 0:2:35.310 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est une belle façon de passer un après-midi d'hiver. 0:2:35.800 --> 0:2:36.920 Jacob M. Mhmm c'était oui. 0:2:38.640 --> 0:2:46.200 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y en avait ? Je suis désolé. Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y ait eu des événements musicaux pendant votre séjour ici ou à Ottawa en général ? 0:2:48.760 --> 0:2:50.400 Jacob M. Il y en avait. Il y avait quelque chose qui s'appelait Louis Hibou. 0:2:51.710 --> 0:3:6.910 Jacob M. HIBOU qui, je suppose, est le hibou. Il y avait de la musique live à un moment donné, j'ai vu je dois me rappeler les noms de quelques chanteurs folkloriques canadiens bien connus. Rien ne me vient à l'esprit. Je crois que j'ai vu Marie McLaughlin. 0:3:7.210 --> 0:3:7.930 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:3:8.160 --> 0:3:11.440 Jacob M. Et au-delà de ça, j'ai oublié qui d'autre, nous avons été là un certain nombre de fois. 0:3:12.560 --> 0:3:15.200 Elliot Douglas Wow, où ces concerts ont-ils lieu habituellement ? 0:3:16.380 --> 0:3:17.380 Jacob M. Quelque part. 0:3:19.710 --> 0:3:25.270 Jacob M. Encore une fois, j'ai oublié mon oublié mon oublié mon Ottawa, Ottawa géographie quelque part au nord de. 0:3:26.310 --> 0:3:29.710 Jacob M. Au nord de Wellington, à l'est de Sussex, dans cette région. 0:3:30.30 --> 0:3:31.30 Elliot Douglas OK. Oui, c'est vrai. 0:3:31.390 --> 0:3:36.710 Jacob M. Je ne suis pas sûr de ce que c'est. Comment s'appelle cette partie de la ville maintenant ? Je ne sais pas. Elle avait un nom. 0:3:36.40 --> 0:3:43.120 Elliot Douglas Je ne suis honnêtement pas sûr. Probablement comme Orléans, peut-être, mais... 0:3:42.490 --> 0:3:44.610 Jacob M. Non, c'est une partie de la ville. 0:3:55.870 --> 0:3:56.630 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:3:46.110 --> 0:3:57.190 Jacob M. C'est à l'ouest de Dalhousie, un peu à l'est du consulat américain, de l'ambassade américaine plutôt, qui n'existait pas à l'époque. L'ambassade n'était pas là à l'époque. 0:3:59.70 --> 0:4:3.350 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous de l'installation de l'ambassade ? Étiez-vous à Ottawa lorsque cela s'est produit ? 0:4:3.900 --> 0:4:5.180 Jacob M. Je ne pense pas. 0:4:7.410 --> 0:4:14.210 Jacob M. 1990. Je ne suis pas sûr qu'ils se trouvaient dans un vieux bâtiment situé juste en face des bâtiments du Parlement. 0:4:15.330 --> 0:4:18.130 Jacob M. Et puis c'est devenu le Rideau Club et après ça, je n'en ai aucune idée. 0:4:19.60 --> 0:4:20.60 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est intéressant. 0:4:19.90 --> 0:4:21.570 Jacob M. Le bâtiment est toujours là, le bâtiment est là. 0:4:22.150 --> 0:4:22.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:4:23.100 --> 0:4:23.940 Elliot Douglas C'est intéressant. 0:4:25.700 --> 0:4:29.100 Elliot Douglas L'Université d'Ottawa était donc une institution bilingue comme elle l'est aujourd'hui. 0:4:30.640 --> 0:4:39.280 Elliot Douglas Quel était le degré d'intégration linguistique ? Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient aux mêmes cours ou participaient aux mêmes clubs dont vous vous souvenez ou dans le cadre de votre programme à la faculté de droit ? 0:4:38.430 --> 0:4:43.310 Jacob M. Je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. Et comme vous voyez la COM à l'époque, la common law n'était enseignée qu'en anglais. 0:4:44.710 --> 0:4:47.710 Jacob M. Nous avions beaucoup de francophones dans notre classe, mais ils parlaient anglais. 0:4:48.770 --> 0:4:49.10 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:4:49.230 --> 0:4:53.430 Jacob M. La plupart des francophones de la classe étaient originaires de l'Ontario. 0:4:54.590 --> 0:5:4.390 Jacob M. Il y avait beaucoup de francophones à l'école de droit civil de l'époque, qui était enseignée entièrement en français, et beaucoup de ces personnes étaient originaires du Québec. 0:5:5.300 --> 0:5:5.580 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:5:6.300 --> 0:5:9.660 Jacob M. Mais nous ne parlions que l'anglais à l'école. 0:5:10.710 --> 0:5:18.550 Jacob M. Et vous savez, j'ai servi un certain nombre de mes collègues francophones qui apprennent, qui apprennent à parler anglais assez rapidement, ce qui est impressionnant. 0:5:18.890 --> 0:5:19.810 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est vrai. 0:5:21.510 --> 0:5:26.390 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous que les anglophones et les francophones sortaient ensemble à cette époque ? 0:5:26.280 --> 0:5:29.280 Jacob M. Eh bien, je suis sûr qu'ils Je suis sûr qu'ils ne l'ont pas fait. Je suis sûr qu'ils l'ont fait, plutôt. 0:5:30.640 --> 0:5:44.320 Jacob M. Rien ne me vient à l'esprit, mais je suis sûr qu'ils l'ont fait. Ma femme est originaire de la ville de Québec. Sa mère était francophone. Il y a donc un exemple de mariage entre un francophone et un anglophone à Québec, il y a très longtemps. 0:5:47.120 --> 0:5:49.200 Jacob M. Mais les dates. J'étais marié à l'époque. J'ai vraiment. 0:5:50.840 --> 0:5:58.400 Jacob M. Et même si je ne me suis pas vraiment intéressé aux filles de la classe autrement qu'en tant que camarades de classe, nous sommes tous égaux. Nous sommes tous égaux. 0:5:58.810 --> 0:5:59.770 Elliot Douglas Oui, non, bien sûr. 0:6:0.170 --> 0:6:2.370 Jacob M. Cela a changé pas mal de choses pour moi. 0:6:2.880 --> 0:6:5.200 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Vous étiez comme ? 0:6:6.520 --> 0:6:10.800 Elliot Douglas La plupart des participants au programme étaient-ils plus jeunes ou plus âgés ? 0:6:18.670 --> 0:6:18.870 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:6:24.80 --> 0:6:24.680 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:6:11.790 --> 0:6:26.270 Jacob M. Eh bien, ils sont pour la plupart plus jeunes. Moi, je me considère comme plus âgé. Parce que. J'ai eu une carrière avant d'aller à l'école de droit. J'avais peut-être trois ans de plus que les autres. Je pense que j'avais 26 ans lorsque je suis entré à la faculté de droit, ce qui semblait antique à l'époque. 0:6:26.580 --> 0:6:26.660 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:6:27.630 --> 0:6:38.950 Jacob M. La plupart d'entre eux avaient une vingtaine d'années. Je ne me souviens que d'une seule personne. Il y avait un homme qui s'appelait BG. Je me souviens de son nom, il devait avoir 40 ans et il avait l'air d'être un grand-père. 0:6:41.50 --> 0:6:41.850 Elliot Douglas Oh mon Dieu. 0:6:43.350 --> 0:6:44.230 Elliot Douglas Qu'est-ce qui vous a fait choisir ? 0:6:43.450 --> 0:6:52.290 Jacob M. Mais il a terminé ses études de droit. Il a fini à la, je crois, à la Commission des relations du travail à, à, à Vancouver et en Colombie-Britannique. 0:6:53.680 --> 0:6:53.880 Jacob M. Mm hmm. 0:6:52.750 --> 0:6:57.110 Elliot Douglas Wow, c'est cool. Qu'est-ce qui vous a incité à choisir Ottawa comme école de droit ? 0:6:59.160 --> 0:7:14.120 Jacob M. Nous avons beaucoup débattu de cette question. Je travaillais comme ingénieur à Ottawa. Ma femme avait un emploi et j'avais été accepté à l'UofT et à Queens, par exemple, mais nous étions installés à Ottawa. 0:7:14.510 --> 0:7:14.710 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:7:15.880 --> 0:7:23.720 Jacob M. C' était trop compliqué pour ma femme de trouver un autre emploi, dans une autre ville, un autre endroit pour vivre, etcetera, etcetera. Nous sommes donc restés sur place. 0:7:24.650 --> 0:7:28.850 Elliot Douglas Course. Eh bien, oui. C'est l'une des meilleures écoles de droit aujourd'hui, vous avez donc fait un bon choix. 0:7:30.230 --> 0:7:34.630 Jacob M. Je ne savais pas que c'était le cas. Est-ce que c'est considéré quand les meilleures écoles de droit maintenant vraiment c'est intéressant. 0:7:33.740 --> 0:7:38.420 Elliot Douglas Oui, je pense que c'est. Je pense qu'il est dans les cinq premiers au Canada en fait, donc c'est. 0:7:37.670 --> 0:7:48.950 Jacob M. Je me rends vraiment compte que c'est fascinant parce que lorsque vous êtes entré à la faculté de droit de l'UofO, j'ai peut-être mentionné cela dans une note que je vous ai adressée. Je pense que c'était l'une des écoles de droit les plus faciles à intégrer au Canada. 0:7:49.190 --> 0:7:50.30 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:7:50.620 --> 0:7:56.700 Jacob M. Mais en même temps, ce que les gens ne savaient pas. Nous avons tous été choqués par le fait que le taux d'échec était de 1/3. 0:7:58.380 --> 0:7:58.820 Elliot Douglas Wow 0:7:58.170 --> 0:8:9.650 Jacob M. Et c'était vraiment 1/3, le doyen nous a dit, regardez à votre gauche, regardez à votre droite. L'un d'entre vous ne sera plus là l'année prochaine. Et c'était exact. Il est donc facile d'y entrer, mais difficile d'en sortir. 0:8:10.130 --> 0:8:11.770 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Wow. 0:8:11.250 --> 0:8:13.970 Jacob M. C'était une bonne école de droit, rétrospectivement c'était une grande école de droit. 0:8:14.990 --> 0:8:18.270 Jacob M. Mais pour certains d'entre nous, à cette époque, c'était aussi très joli. 0:8:19.630 --> 0:8:20.790 Jacob M. Une expérience plutôt effrayante. 0:8:21.330 --> 0:8:22.490 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est sûr. 0:8:23.540 --> 0:8:27.940 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous des cours que vous suiviez à l'époque, ou y en avait-il un qui vous intéressait particulièrement ? 0:8:29.420 --> 0:8:41.660 Jacob M. En fait, j'ai trouvé qu'ils étaient tous intéressants pour moi. J'ai aimé le droit foncier avec, avec, avec le doyen, le doyen Feeney, le doyen. J'ai fait du droit de la responsabilité civile avec le dénommé Sussman, des contrats avec le professeur Granger. 0:8:43.720 --> 0:8:58.240 Jacob M. Propriété personnelle avec un certain Leslie Shaw. Le reste était intéressant parce que nous apprenions comment le droit fonctionne et comment les précédents fonctionnent et gouvernent dans le système juridique de la common law. 0:8:58.760 --> 0:9:3.600 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Comment avez-vous trouvé le rapport entre les professeurs hommes et femmes à l'époque ? 0:9:9.40 --> 0:9:11.680 Jacob M. Je ne me souviens que d'une seule femme professeur. 0:9:13.40 --> 0:9:14.520 Jacob M. Une femme qui s'appelait, je crois, Janet Reed. 0:9:16.580 --> 0:9:30.660 Jacob M. J'ai fait en sorte que ce soit Barbara Reed Reid, dont je connais le mari. J'ai oublié ce qu'elle enseignait. Mais elle enseignait. Je crois qu'elle est arrivée après que j'ai terminé ma première année. Mais elle enseignait à l'Université d'Ottawa, je dirais le droit constitutionnel. 0:9:32.300 --> 0:9:44.820 Jacob M. À part cela, il y avait peut-être une ou deux autres femmes qui enseignaient, mais elles étaient l'exception. Même dans la classe, la classe était à peu près quand j'ai obtenu mon diplôme, c'est peut-être 20% de femmes à l'époque. 0:9:46.550 --> 0:9:47.110 Elliot Douglas C'est toujours ça. 0:9:46.650 --> 0:9:48.970 Jacob M. Mais maintenant, c'est 5050. 0:9:49.350 --> 0:9:49.550 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:9:51.370 --> 0:9:55.410 Elliot Douglas C'est quand même assez impressionnant pour l'époque, 20%, c'est... 0:9:54.470 --> 0:9:58.270 Jacob M. Nous n'y pensons pas comme nous n'y pensons pas à l'époque, mais oui, je suppose que c'était le cas. 0:9:58.510 --> 0:9:59.70 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:10:0.450 --> 0:10:3.890 Jacob M. Je pense qu'il y avait douze femmes dans ma classe, ma promotion. 0:10:5.160 --> 0:10:5.400 Jacob M. Sur. 0:10:4.130 --> 0:10:6.610 Elliot Douglas Wow. Quelle était la taille de votre promotion ? 0:10:6.980 --> 0:10:10.180 Jacob M. Je voudrais dire 65, 60 à 65. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.640 Jacob M. C'est probablement peu par rapport à aujourd'hui. 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.120 Elliot Douglas Oui, je ne sais pas trop à quoi sert la classe de diplômés. La taille de l'école de droit. 0:10:17.900 --> 0:10:22.700 Jacob M. Je ne sais plus. Cela pourrait être 180, cela pourrait être 250. Je ne sais plus. 0:10:23.220 --> 0:10:23.340 Elliot Douglas Hmm. 0:10:24.750 --> 0:10:32.590 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous que le corps étudiant a fait des déclarations sur la guerre du Vietnam ? Si vous étiez à la faculté de droit, je parie que c'était un sujet un peu brûlant pour vous. 0:10:34.210 --> 0:10:49.130 Jacob M. Je pense que la guerre du Vietnam a été plutôt refroidie. J'ai vécu aux États-Unis, et c'est une question distincte, mais je sais évidemment tout de la guerre du Vietnam. J'y étais en tant que Canadien, aux États-Unis, en tant que Canadien. Je n'avais donc aucune possibilité d'être appelé sous les drapeaux. 0:10:51.70 --> 0:10:56.910 Jacob M. UofO à l'époque. Non, sauf l'opposition. Mais rien, rien de particulier. 0:10:58.170 --> 0:11:2.730 Elliot Douglas Quelle a été votre expérience en tant que Canadien allant à l'école aux États-Unis dans les années 60 et 70 ? 0:11:4.260 --> 0:11:12.380 Jacob M. J'y étais de 1968 à 1970. En fait, lorsque vous traversiez, du moins à l'époque, la frontière, le Canada disparaissait. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.880 Jacob M. Personne ne savait rien du Canada et ils s'en moquaient. 0:11:17.940 --> 0:11:19.340 Jacob M. Sauf que j'avais un drôle d'accent. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:22.560 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:29.800 Jacob M. Pour quelques-uns des nombreux enfer. Mais j'ai vu des manifestations, vous savez, des étudiants qui couraient à travers le campus du MIT en criant quoi ? 0:11:30.820 --> 0:11:33.900 Jacob M. Ho ho, Ho Chi Minh. Le NLF va gagner. 0:11:34.300 --> 0:11:35.60 Elliot Douglas Oh mon Dieu. 0:11:35.510 --> 0:11:39.350 Jacob M. Il s'agit d'une population massive à la fin de l'année 1969. 0:11:39.780 --> 0:11:40.420 Elliot Douglas Wow. 0:11:40.740 --> 0:11:42.380 Jacob M. Il se passe donc beaucoup de choses ici. 0:11:42.930 --> 0:11:43.450 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm mm hmm. 0:11:48.560 --> 0:11:48.760 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:11:43.420 --> 0:12:2.660 Jacob M. J'ai assisté une fois à une conférence de Bobby Seale, qui était un Black Panther. Il nous criait dessus, nous disant d'aller manifester, de descendre dans la rue et de faire des émeutes. Je me souviens que j'étais assis là à l'écouter. C'était l'auditorium Kresge du MIT. Je me suis dit : "Je ne peux pas faire ça. J'ai des devoirs à faire. 0:12:5.970 --> 0:12:7.850 Elliot Douglas Oui, MIT. Vous avez dû être très occupé. 0:12:10.300 --> 0:12:10.780 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:12:8.650 --> 0:12:15.530 Jacob M. Nous étions extrêmement occupés, même si, en tant qu'étudiant en droit de l'Uofo, je l'étais. J'étais très occupé et de la même manière. 0:12:16.150 --> 0:12:16.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:17.360 Jacob M. Tout à fait. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:25.480 Elliot Douglas C'est aussi très intéressant. Vous êtes descendu puis remonté. C'est intéressant. 0:12:25.610 --> 0:12:27.90 Jacob M. À cette époque. 0:12:29.290 --> 0:12:35.210 Jacob M. J'étais ingénieur et les emplois pour les ingénieurs à cette époque étaient rares. 0:12:36.770 --> 0:12:41.410 Jacob M. Les choses ont changé depuis et je ne suis pas sûr de vouloir rester aux États-Unis, car je ne m'y sentais pas très à l'aise. 0:12:42.510 --> 0:12:43.430 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:51.400 Jacob M. J'aurais pu, je pense que si j'étais resté là-bas une troisième année, je ne serais jamais rentré chez moi, j'aurais fait du droit. Mais je ne serais jamais revenu au Canada. 0:12:52.110 --> 0:12:52.310 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:12:56.20 --> 0:13:1.980 Elliot Douglas Y avait-il d'autres étudiants américains ? Quelle était la culture des étudiants étrangers à l'Université d'Ottawa à l'époque où vous y étiez ? 0:13:2.840 --> 0:13:6.240 Jacob M. Je ne peux pas parler pour l'ensemble de l'université, mais à la faculté de droit. 0:13:8.990 --> 0:13:12.70 Jacob M. Il s'agissait d'un homme d'origine chinoise. 0:13:13.470 --> 0:13:19.70 Jacob M. Pour moi, il s'agit de Hong Kong. A l'époque, je me souviens qu'il apprenait l'anglais. Je me souviens qu'il apprenait l'anglais. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:19.960 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:13:20.330 --> 0:13:30.170 Jacob M. Son nom ? Je crois qu'il s'appelait SY. Je ne sais pas s'il est devenu S., mais il était le seul, je dirais, non canadien de l'école, de la faculté de droit. 0:13:32.630 --> 0:13:36.830 Elliot Douglas C' était le cas. Il y avait surtout des Canadiens à l'époque. 0:13:40.70 --> 0:13:40.790 Elliot Douglas Oh oui. 0:13:37.250 --> 0:13:41.490 Jacob M. Je pense entièrement, du moins je ne parle que pour la faculté de droit de l'époque. 0:13:42.150 --> 0:13:42.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:48.520 Jacob M. Et je pense que je pense que je pense qu'en Amérique, vouloir aller à l'école de droit aurait voulu aller à l'école de droit américaine. 0:13:49.490 --> 0:13:49.690 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.280 Jacob M. Il y en a beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup. 0:13:51.790 --> 0:13:55.710 Elliot Douglas Oui, c'est un peu plus difficile au Canada, nous n'avons pas autant d'options que là-bas. 0:13:55.670 --> 0:13:56.550 Jacob M. No. 0:14:0.0 --> 0:14:10.720 Elliot Douglas Certaines voix culturelles de la jeunesse des années 1970 parlaient de la prise de drogues récréatives. Vous souvenez-vous de quelqu'un que vous connaissiez qui en prenait ou qui en parlait ? 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.720 Elliot Douglas Ni l'association des étudiants n'a fait de déclaration à ce sujet. 0:14:13.970 --> 0:14:20.530 Jacob M. Oh, je suis, j'ai. J'ai. J'ai toujours été hétéro. Je n'ai jamais. Je n'ai jamais consommé de marijuana, par exemple, je ne bois pas. 0:14:21.100 --> 0:14:21.540 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:14:22.90 --> 0:14:28.410 Jacob M. Je suis donc probablement ennuyeux à cet égard. Je ne me souviens pas que quelqu'un ait utilisé une quelconque drogue récréative. 0:14:30.190 --> 0:14:31.510 Jacob M. Il y avait une taverne à proximité. 0:14:32.860 --> 0:14:35.540 Jacob M. Et beaucoup de gars allaient à la Taverne. 0:14:36.810 --> 0:14:52.90 Jacob M. Assez souvent, mais la seule drogue de choix dont j'avais connaissance à l'époque était l'alcool. Je ne connaissais personne qui consommait de la marijuana, des champignons magiques, du LSD, de la cocaïne. Rien du tout. Rien du tout. 0:14:53.290 --> 0:14:54.130 Jacob M. À ma connaissance. 0:14:53.370 --> 0:14:57.130 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous du nom de la Taverne par hasard ? 0:14:58.30 --> 0:15:4.510 Jacob M. Oh, pourquoi le hibou a-t-il commencé ? Je pense qu'il a disparu. Il se trouve en face d'où ? Du palais de justice d'Ottawa. 0:15:5.40 --> 0:15:5.920 Elliot Douglas OK. 0:15:8.230 --> 0:15:8.350 Elliot Douglas Huh. 0:15:6.270 --> 0:15:13.70 Jacob M. Il faut chercher pour trouver. C'était la taverne ALBION. Elle avait deux entrées, une pour les hommes et une pour les femmes. 0:15:13.650 --> 0:15:14.570 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:15:14.410 --> 0:15:16.90 Jacob M. C'était une autre époque en Ontario. 0:15:16.620 --> 0:15:21.260 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. Oui, c'est vrai. Diriez-vous que c'était un lieu de rendez-vous assez courant pour les étudiants ? 0:15:22.710 --> 0:15:23.190 Elliot Douglas Pensez-vous ? 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.120 Jacob M. Peut-être que pour certains, je ne sais pas si les gens ont beaucoup traîné ensemble. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:30.760 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:15:30.370 --> 0:15:32.130 Jacob M. Parce que nous étions très occupés. 0:15:33.130 --> 0:15:42.530 Jacob M. Pour ce qui est d'aller à l'école, surtout la première année, vous arriviez à 8 h 30 le matin. On ne sortait pas avant 5 heures du soir. Il y avait des cours toute la journée. 0:15:44.30 --> 0:15:47.310 Jacob M. Nous n'avions donc pas beaucoup de temps libre, surtout en première année. 0:15:48.50 --> 0:15:48.250 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:15:49.430 --> 0:15:52.310 Elliot Douglas Cela ressemble un peu à ce qui se passe aujourd'hui à certains égards. 0:15:52.730 --> 0:15:56.490 Jacob M. Oui, je ne sais pas comment c'était aujourd'hui. Je n'en ai aucune idée. Je ne peux pas imaginer. 0:16:3.40 --> 0:16:3.520 Jacob M. Yep, Yep. 0:15:57.290 --> 0:16:3.890 Elliot Douglas Oui. Je pense que je vais passer à la deuxième section, si vous êtes d'accord. 0:16:8.260 --> 0:16:8.780 Jacob M. Oui. 0:16:5.130 --> 0:16:22.290 Elliot Douglas Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, qui fait partie du mouvement de la contre-culture. Dans les années 1970, les femmes ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? Diriez-vous qu'il y avait beaucoup d'activités féministes de la deuxième vague ? Y a-t-il eu des manifestations ? 0:16:21.710 --> 0:16:25.670 Jacob M. Quelle était la première façon pour Betty Friedan d'être une personne comme ça ? 0:16:25.970 --> 0:16:26.410 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:16:27.110 --> 0:16:27.590 Jacob M. OK. 0:16:30.450 --> 0:16:39.770 Jacob M. Pas beaucoup, mais nous étions conscients que les femmes de notre classe ne seraient peut-être pas aussi bien traitées par la profession que les hommes. 0:16:41.130 --> 0:17:3.770 Jacob M. J'ai des antécédents un peu bizarres. J'avais dix ans. Mon père est mort, alors j'ai eu une mère qui travaillait, parce que j'avais une femme qui travaillait aussi. J'ai eu une femme qui travaillait aussi, et donc j'ai toujours été, surtout pour ma mère, très enthousiaste à l'idée que les femmes puissent progresser. Ma mère avait un travail où elle formait des hommes à faire n'importe quelle tâche. Ensuite, ces hommes étaient promus au-dessus d'elle. 0:17:4.450 --> 0:17:5.90 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:17:5.430 --> 0:17:7.750 Jacob M. Ce qui l'a frustrée au plus haut point. 0:17:9.60 --> 0:17:20.340 Jacob M. Je ne me souviens pas de grand-chose. Je me souviens que c'était peut-être le féminisme de la deuxième vague le plus fort dans la section de droit civil parmi les femmes qui s'y trouvaient, si je me souviens bien. 0:17:21.660 --> 0:17:23.460 Jacob M. Si vous pouvez trouver une des femmes de ma classe. 0:17:24.860 --> 0:17:28.940 Jacob M. Qu'ils peuvent être beaucoup plus éloquents sur ce sujet que je ne pourrai jamais l'être. 0:17:30.290 --> 0:17:31.930 Elliot Douglas Eh bien, merci d'avoir partagé un peu de votre temps. 0:17:33.350 --> 0:17:39.350 Elliot Douglas Selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada à cette époque ? Si vous pouviez l'associer à quelque chose ? 0:17:42.510 --> 0:17:46.510 Jacob M. Je ne veux pas dire garderie. Je n'y ai pas pensé jusqu'à ce que je devienne père. 0:17:53.150 --> 0:17:53.350 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:17:48.250 --> 0:18:8.810 Jacob M. L'égalité des chances pour les femmes est la même que pour les hommes. Si un homme peut devenir avocat ou juge, une femme devrait pouvoir faire la même chose, à talent égal et à capacité égale. En d'autres termes, une personne ne devrait pas être retenue parce qu'elle est une femme et non un homme. 0:18:9.530 --> 0:18:9.570 Elliot Douglas Mhmm 0:18:11.100 --> 0:18:11.860 Elliot Douglas Bien sûr. 0:18:11.110 --> 0:18:13.270 Jacob M. Très simpliste, mais c'est ainsi. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:21.160 Jacob M. Oui. 0:18:16.330 --> 0:18:45.890 Elliot Douglas Nous allons donc parler un peu des différences idéologiques et générationnelles entre votre génération et celle de vos parents. Les historiens ont beaucoup appris sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture et tout ce qui s'est rebellé contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents, un peu plus. Dans quelle mesure vous souvenez-vous que des personnes de votre cercle social ou de l'université se sont mobilisées pour changer un peu la société, par des protestations ou d'autres manifestations ? 0:18:47.930 --> 0:18:51.730 Jacob M. C'était très discret à l'époque. Je ne dirais pas inexistant. 0:18:53.190 --> 0:18:56.870 Jacob M. Peut-être que dans certains groupes d'étudiants, c'était une force plus puissante. 0:19:3.780 --> 0:19:3.980 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:18:58.190 --> 0:19:11.390 Jacob M. Mais à la faculté de droit de l'UofO à l'époque, je dirais que c'était presque inexistant. Nous étions nombreux à faire de l'aide juridique. Nous représentions donc les gens dans les cours de petites créances et les tribunaux de la circulation à Ottawa. 0:19:12.660 --> 0:19:13.20 Jacob M. But. 0:19:15.340 --> 0:19:18.580 Jacob M. C'était plutôt une fonction de service social. Nous proposions nos services aux gens. 0:19:20.790 --> 0:19:22.990 Jacob M. Je suis. Je suis désolé, je ne peux pas vous aider davantage avec cette question. 0:19:23.80 --> 0:19:32.40 Elliot Douglas Non, non, pas de souci. Vous souvenez-vous de grandes affaires judiciaires dont vous avez entendu parler pendant vos études de droit et qui étaient liées à des questions de justice civile ? 0:19:35.170 --> 0:19:40.610 Jacob M. Je ne peux pas dire. Vous voulez dire les affaires judiciaires que j'ai lues ou les affaires judiciaires de l'époque. 0:19:41.360 --> 0:19:46.360 Elliot Douglas Court cases that you maybe learn about in some of your classes or that were happening at the time. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.160 Jacob M. Il ne se passe rien à ce moment-là. 0:19:50.650 --> 0:19:52.690 Jacob M. Pas grand-chose ne me vient à l'esprit. 0:19:54.290 --> 0:19:56.970 Jacob M. Il existe un cas célèbre appelé Ron Corellian Duplessy. 0:19:58.230 --> 0:20:19.390 Jacob M. Qui a disparu selon le Canada, ou peut-être dans les années 50, ce serait la chose la plus proche d'un cas de droits de l'homme à l'époque. Ronker Ron Chorelli était un Témoin de Jéhovah dans de Plessy, le gouvernement de Plessy au Québec, voulait mettre fin aux tentatives des Témoins de Jéhovah de chercher des convertis. 0:20:20.950 --> 0:20:32.110 Jacob M. À l'époque, à Montréal, c'était assez courant à Ottawa, je ne sais pas. Mais quand j'étais chez moi à Montréal, on frappait à la porte. C'était quelqu'un qui vous remettait un document des Témoins de Jéhovah, qui vous remettait la tour de garde. 0:20:33.360 --> 0:20:33.720 Elliot Douglas Oh wow. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.40 Jacob M. Nous disons merci beaucoup et c'est tout. 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:54.0 Jacob M. Mais je crois que le premier ministre de Plessy n'était pas content. À l'époque, le Québec était une province très catholique et on craignait que les Témoins de Jéhovah ne minent la religion des années 50 et 60 au Québec. 0:20:55.700 --> 0:21:8.300 Elliot Douglas L 'Université d'Ottawa était une institution catholique. Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y a eu des débats ou des discussions sur la réduction du contrôle que l'Église catholique exerçait sur l'institution ? 0:21:11.380 --> 0:21:19.460 Jacob M. Je dirais près de zéro. Je pense que l'école de droit a été créée par un prêtre, un père, Danny DANIS. 0:21:21.20 --> 0:21:38.20 Jacob M. qui était un homme très tourné vers l'avenir, mais à l'époque, non, il n'y a pas, je n'étais pas au courant du contrôle de l'institution par quiconque j'ai été étudiant, c'était une assez bonne institution. Mon seul souvenir est que beaucoup de professeurs avaient un crucifix sur leur mur. 0:21:38.540 --> 0:21:38.820 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:21:39.390 --> 0:21:43.830 Jacob M. Et j'étais catholique romain, peu importe. Certainement pas à l'époque et. 0:21:45.450 --> 0:21:46.970 Jacob M. C'est quelque chose que j'ai remarqué. Disons-le comme ça. 0:21:48.550 --> 0:21:52.310 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait une grande diversité religieuse sur le campus à l'époque ? 0:21:53.110 --> 0:21:55.550 Jacob M. Non, ce serait protestant, catholique, juif. 0:21:56.770 --> 0:21:57.330 Période Jacob M. 0:21:58.10 --> 0:21:58.250 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:21:58.980 --> 0:21:59.940 Jacob M. Musulmans. 0:22:1.760 --> 0:22:3.40 Jacob M. Je ne pense pas, je ne pense pas. 0:22:4.440 --> 0:22:6.160 Jacob M. Pas à ce moment-là en tout cas. 0:22:9.610 --> 0:22:21.10 Elliot Douglas Rappelez-vous quelles étaient les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses au moment où vous êtes arrivé à l'université. Et comment les opinions de votre génération ont-elles évolué par rapport à cela ? 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.200 Jacob M. Je ne peux vraiment pas répondre à cette question. Quand mon père est mort. 0:22:28.420 --> 0:22:38.900 Jacob M. Ma mère n'a jamais eu grand-chose à me dire sur les gens que je fréquentais, alors je ne me souviens pas de grand-chose. Je ne me souviens donc pas de grand-chose. J'ai un peu de mal à répondre à cette question et je m'en excuse. 0:22:39.100 --> 0:22:40.140 Elliot Douglas Pas de souci. 0:22:41.650 --> 0:22:44.10 Elliot Douglas Désolé, je regarde juste toutes les listes que nous avons. 0:22:44.270 --> 0:22:45.670 Jacob M. Non, c'est bien, c'est bien. 0:22:50.410 --> 0:23:1.650 Elliot Douglas Dans les années 1970, lorsque vous étiez à l'Université d'Ottawa, quels étaient les aspects de la société canadienne que vous considériez comme les plus désuets ou qui avaient besoin d'être corrigés ou changés ? 0:23:4.540 --> 0:23:7.780 Jacob M. Il y avait ce que je perçois comme un réseau de vieux garçons. 0:23:8.950 --> 0:23:15.150 Jacob M. Parmi les avocats d'Ottawa, et même eux n'avaient pas accès aux juges. Mais je présume que c'est aussi parmi eux. 0:23:15.990 --> 0:23:18.710 Jacob M. Et j'ai senti qu'il fallait changer cela. 0:23:20.30 --> 0:23:45.70 Jacob M. À l'époque, parce qu'il me semblait que si vous faisiez partie du groupe, alors vous pourriez avoir un bon succès ou autre. Mais si vous n'en faisiez pas partie et que vous étiez plus nombreux, vous pouviez quand même devenir juge ou autre, mais c'était peut-être plus difficile. Mais je ne me souviens pas que cela ait jamais été un problème très important, ce n'est pas quelque chose auquel j'ai beaucoup pensé, ce qui est peut-être plus une réflexion sur moi qu'autre chose. 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.0 Elliot Douglas C'est très intéressant. 0:23:50.970 --> 0:23:55.890 Elliot Douglas Aviez-vous le sentiment que notre système politique de l'époque était démocratique, juste et raisonnable ? 0:23:56.870 --> 0:24:0.390 Jacob M. À l'époque, absolument. Bien sûr. Absolument, absolument. 0:24:1.630 --> 0:24:3.550 Jacob M. Oh, sans aucun doute, sans aucun doute. 0:24:7.870 --> 0:24:9.750 Elliot Douglas Désolé, je regarde juste notre liste de questions. 0:24:9.530 --> 0:24:12.490 Jacob M. Eh bien, découvrons-le. Prenez votre temps. Et c'est amusant. 0:24:20.340 --> 0:24:28.700 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous que la faculté de droit organisait à l'époque des événements pour les étudiants ? Des rencontres ou d'autres événements ? 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:31.600 Jacob M. Je suis sûr qu'il y en a eu. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.240 Jacob M. Je ne sais pas. Oui, il y a eu. Il y avait un. 0:24:39.150 --> 0:24:42.390 Jacob M. J'ai oublié cela. Il y avait un club qui s'appelait Law Wives. 0:24:44.30 --> 0:24:51.310 Jacob M. Quelques-uns d'entre nous dans la classe étaient mariés et le doyen se réunissait avec, avec les, avec nos épouses, peut-être une ou deux fois par an. 0:24:53.110 --> 0:25:8.390 Jacob M. Pas tout à fait un mélangeur, mais sinon, vous savez, c'était un petit groupe. Nous étions tous ensemble au même étage et je crois que c'était le 165 Waller St, qui a changé de nom maintenant, je crois. Il y avait une salle commune où nous prenions nos repas et où nous nous parlions, mais... 0:25:9.200 --> 0:25:12.480 Jacob M. Au-delà, pas vraiment là. Il y en avait. Il y avait des équipes, il y en aurait. 0:25:13.500 --> 0:25:17.860 Jacob M. J'étais très, très sportif à l'époque. Il y avait une équipe de hockey, une équipe de football. 0:25:19.230 --> 0:25:21.750 Jacob M. Beaucoup de gars et d'hommes, de mâles. 0:25:23.90 --> 0:25:23.930 Jacob M. a joué au hockey. 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:34.760 Jacob M. Ils avaient leur propre hockey. Je ne sais pas contre qui ils jouaient dans leur propre ligue de hockey, mais certains jouaient encore au basket-ball, pas moi. Je nageais un peu, mais pas beaucoup. 0:25:36.450 --> 0:25:46.530 Elliot Douglas Vous vous souvenez ? Des grands matchs sportifs auxquels vous assistiez, comme aujourd'hui le Panda Game, qui est une grande rivalité entre Carlton et l'Université d'Ottawa. Y avait-il quelque chose de ce genre ? 0:25:45.950 --> 0:25:51.550 Jacob M. Encore une fois, c'est plus le reflet de moi que je l'ai ignoré. Je n'étais vraiment pas intéressé. 0:25:52.100 --> 0:25:52.300 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:25:54.890 --> 0:25:56.50 Elliot Douglas Non, il faut s'excuser. 0:25:53.110 --> 0:25:58.70 Jacob M. Je suis désolé, ça n'a rien donné pour moi. Je suis sûr que c'est le cas pour certaines personnes, mais... 0:26:0.110 --> 0:26:9.310 Jacob M. L'un de mes camarades de classe, un certain LK, qui est originaire d'Ottawa, vient, je crois, de prendre sa retraite en tant que très bon avocat d'Ottawa. J'ajouterai qu'il faisait partie de l'équipe de football. Il faisait partie de l'équipe de football. Je m'en souviens. 0:26:12.0 --> 0:26:22.40 Jacob M. Mais au-delà, je ne sais pas, il y avait quelqu'un d'autre nommé TB qui, qui jouait dans une équipe de hockey. Mais je pense que c'était purement intra-muros au sein de l'école de droit. 0:26:22.390 --> 0:26:26.630 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. Est-ce que beaucoup de vos camarades de classe étaient impliqués dans des activités sportives à l'école ? 0:26:27.0 --> 0:26:35.400 Jacob M. Oui, probablement plus que moi. Probablement plus que moi. Beaucoup ont joué beaucoup au hockey. Beaucoup d'entre eux ont. J'utilise le mot " gars " à dessein. 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:37.600 Jacob M. J'avais l'habitude de les appeler les garçons de la vallée de l'Outaouais. 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.80 Jacob M. Les gens qui sont allés à l'Université de l'Ontario venaient généralement du nord de l'Ontario. 0:26:43.460 --> 0:26:46.380 Jacob M. Ou bien Eastern Ontario ne voulait pas aller à la faculté de droit de Toronto. 0:26:47.390 --> 0:26:51.70 Jacob M. Ils viennent d'endroits comme Perth Iron avant toutes ces petites villes autour d'Ottawa. 0:26:52.700 --> 0:26:55.220 Jacob M. Beaucoup sont passés par les écoles secondaires d'Ottawa. 0:26:55.950 --> 0:26:56.470 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:26:58.110 --> 0:27:2.790 Jacob M. C' était donc la principale zone d'attraction de la faculté de droit à l'époque. 0:27:3.810 --> 0:27:19.890 Jacob M. Ils sont allés à la Saint Patrick's School ou au Saint Patrick's College, peu importe ce que c'était, et encore une fois, la Ottawa Law High School est comme, comme Lisgar, et puis d'autres dont les noms ne me viennent pas à l'esprit. Je n'ai donc pas fait d'études secondaires à Ottawa. C'était donc un peu un mystère pour moi. 0:27:21.10 --> 0:27:26.410 Elliot Douglas Étiez-vous l'un des rares à venir de Montréal ou connaissiez-vous quelqu'un d'autre qui avait fréquenté l'école de droit ? 0:27:30.350 --> 0:27:34.870 Jacob M. Je pense que j'étais le seul dans ce cas dans ma classe. Il y avait quelqu'un en common law. 0:27:37.870 --> 0:27:38.350 Jacob M. Qui ? 0:27:38.370 --> 0:27:43.730 Jacob M. qui était de Montréal parce que lui et moi avons comparé nos notes un jour et nous sommes passés par le même système scolaire à Montréal. 0:27:44.860 --> 0:27:53.260 Jacob M. Mais même s'il n'y avait pas beaucoup de Montréalais à l'époque, je pense que les Montréalais auraient probablement voulu aller à McGill ou à l'Université de Montréal. 0:27:55.590 --> 0:28:0.550 Elliot Douglas Bien sûr. Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait d'autres Canadiens d'autres provinces à l'école de droit ? 0:28:2.220 --> 0:28:4.60 Jacob M. Eh bien, en tant qu'ingénieur à McGill, oui. 0:28:22.590 --> 0:28:23.190 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:28:5.730 --> 0:28:28.250 Jacob M. Je me souviens de gens de l'Alberta dans ma classe d'ingénierie. Non, je ne me souviens pas. Je ne peux pas. Je ne connaissais que la faculté de droit et je ne me souviens de personne de l'Alberta. C'était une excellente faculté de droit et il y en a plusieurs. Les gens vont donc à l'Université de l'Alberta, je suppose qu'il s'agit maintenant de l'Université de Calgary. Je ne sais pas où ils ont tendance à rester. Ils ont tendance à vouloir rester dans l'Ouest ou peut-être à UBC. 0:28:29.70 --> 0:28:29.150 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:28:29.870 --> 0:28:37.190 Elliot Douglas Il semble que les gens voyagent un peu moins qu'avant. Ils ne semblaient pas aller aussi loin à l'école que les gens d'aujourd'hui. 0:28:37.100 --> 0:28:41.980 Jacob M. Non, non. Il se peut que l'Université de Saskatchewan soit également très réputée. 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:43.160 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:28:42.860 --> 0:28:48.580 Jacob M. Si ce n'était pas le cas, ses juges étaient issus de l'Université de Saskatchewan. Je ne sais pas pourquoi, de cette école de droit. 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:55.880 Elliot Douglas Certains de vos camarades de classe sont-ils devenus juges ? Je sais que vous en avez mentionné un ou deux, mais... 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:59.400 Jacob M. J'essaie de me rappeler qui était là. Il y avait certains des. 0:29:0.450 --> 0:29:6.450 Jacob M. C, C-----'est devenu juge à la Cour supérieure de l'Ontario. 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:16.560 Jacob M. Quelqu'un d'autre est devenu juge en Ontario, peut-être PD. D---. 0:29:16.580 --> 0:29:19.540 Jacob M. Aussi, la Cour supérieure de l'Ontario, c'est à peu près tout. 0:29:21.650 --> 0:29:38.50 Jacob M. Tous pour les gens qui sont devenus comme ça. Il y en a un troisième, M---, RM, qui a travaillé pour le gouvernement fédéral en tant que fonctionnaire et qui est ensuite devenu juge à la Cour fédérale. Il est peut-être encore à la Cour fédérale, dont le siège est à Ottawa, donc quelques uns. 0:29:39.890 --> 0:29:43.90 Jacob M. Souvent, les personnes qui sont devenues juges travaillent pour la fonction publique. 0:29:44.610 --> 0:29:50.290 Jacob M. Soit l'Ontario, soit la fonction publique fédérale. Je ne sais pas trop pourquoi, mais c'était le cas. 0:29:51.350 --> 0:29:53.590 Elliot Douglas Oui. La proximité, potentiellement, mais. 0:29:56.110 --> 0:29:56.390 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:57.480 Jacob M. Oui, peut-être. Je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. C'est comme ça que ça se passe. Elliot Douglas a donné l'avertissement de la question, mais la transcription ne l'a pas relevé. 0:30:23.480 --> 0:30:24.240 Jacob M. C'est très bien. 0:30:24.300 --> 0:30:29.780 Elliot Douglas Répondez aux questions si elles vous mettent mal à l'aise ou sautez complètement la section. 0:30:30.250 --> 0:30:31.290 Jacob M. Bien sûr, c'est parfait. 0:30:31.900 --> 0:30:41.220 Elliot Douglas K Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de lutter contre le harcèlement sexuel. Vous souvenez-vous que les autorités universitaires ont publié des informations sur la sécurité des femmes ? 0:30:44.310 --> 0:31:1.830 Jacob M. Je ne peux pas dire que c'est le cas. Je ne me souviens de rien. En fait, je pense qu'il y a toujours des mesures prises pour aider les femmes à rentrer chez elles le soir, des choses comme ça dans les classes. Mais au-delà de ça, je n'étais pas au courant de quoi que ce soit. Ce n'était tout simplement pas le cas. Ce n'était pas un problème dont j'avais connaissance à l'époque. 0:31:3.390 --> 0:31:7.790 Jacob M. J'étais marié à l'époque. Je suis toujours marié 53 ans plus tard, avec la même femme. 0:31:10.230 --> 0:31:13.470 Jacob M. Je n'ai jamais harcelé sexuellement qui que ce soit et je n'avais aucun intérêt à le faire. 0:31:14.20 --> 0:31:14.260 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:31:27.710 --> 0:31:27.790 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:31:15.30 --> 0:31:30.510 Jacob M. Je m'entendais très bien avec les femmes avec lesquelles je travaillais, que ce soit à l'Université d'Oregon ou dans ma vie d'avocat, ce n'était pas un problème pour moi. Certains des autres gars, je n'ai aucune idée de ce qu'ils faisaient et ils ne vont pas venir me le dire. Je n'ai jamais rien entendu, je peux vous le dire. 0:31:33.90 --> 0:31:49.370 Elliot Douglas Notre génération est très intéressée par l'idée du mouvement de l'amour libre qui était très populaire à l'époque. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? Était-elle perçue négativement, positivement, ou n'était-elle tout simplement pas abordée ? 0:31:49.910 --> 0:31:52.230 Jacob M. Comme je pense que c'est probablement si vous avez une vision positive. 0:31:53.230 --> 0:31:57.110 Jacob M. En tout cas, c'est ce dont je me souviens à l'époque. 0:31:58.130 --> 0:32:2.650 Jacob M. Les relations sexuelles avant le mariage étaient donc considérées comme n'étant pas, pas vraiment, pas surprenantes. 0:32:3.520 --> 0:32:3.840 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:32:5.500 --> 0:32:8.660 Elliot Douglas Les membres de la génération de vos parents s'en sont-ils inquiétés, selon vous ? 0:32:9.970 --> 0:32:10.930 Jacob M. Je n'en doute pas. 0:32:13.40 --> 0:32:15.600 Jacob M. J'en suis sûr, surtout les parents de ma mère, de ma femme. 0:32:17.910 --> 0:32:19.430 Jacob M. Cela n'a jamais été un gros problème. 0:32:20.350 --> 0:32:20.550 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:32:20.110 --> 0:32:22.750 Jacob M. n'en a jamais, jamais beaucoup parlé. C'est comme ça que ça se passe. 0:32:25.650 --> 0:32:25.770 Jacob M. Umm. 0:32:28.70 --> 0:32:29.830 Jacob M. J'avais un colocataire au MIT. 0:32:30.650 --> 0:32:36.410 Jacob M. Qui ? Vous savez, il avait l'habitude, nous avions l'habitude d'amener sa petite amie de temps en temps, nous disparaissions. 0:32:39.440 --> 0:32:43.520 Jacob M. Mais je n'en ai jamais fait grand cas. C'est comme ça, c'est tout. 0:32:45.540 --> 0:32:55.660 Elliot Douglas C'est un peu lié à cela, mais même à McGill, quelle a été votre expérience de la vie en résidence, si vous avez vécu en résidence, ou au MIT, à quoi ressemblait ce genre de culture à l'époque ? 0:32:55.970 --> 0:33:7.770 Jacob M. Au MIT, je commencerai par McGill. Je vivais chez moi à McGill. J'ai pris le bus pour aller à l'école tous les jours à McGill. Je ne me souviens pas de grand-chose au MIT. Encore une fois, pas grand-chose. 0:33:9.310 --> 0:33:18.350 Jacob M. Je me souviens que ma femme, qui était alors ma femme, est venue me rendre visite au MIT. Elle est restée à la résidence des femmes du MIT, et je lui ai rendu visite à la résidence. 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:23.160 Jacob M. Personne n'en a rien pensé, alors je partais à 2 heures du matin ou je ne sais quoi. 0:33:25.770 --> 0:33:32.690 Elliot Douglas Avez-vous remarqué des différences dans les qualités des résidents, qu'il s'agisse des femmes ou des hommes ? Ou est-ce qu'ils étaient à peu près les mêmes, d'après vous ? 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:38.640 Jacob M. Je n'ai jamais vu grand-chose de la résidence des femmes au MIT, j'ai vécu dans une dans une. 0:33:41.650 --> 0:33:47.810 Jacob M. L'autre j'ai vécu dans une résidence qui est à la fois masculine et féminine. Elle se trouve sur le campus du MIT. 0:33:49.340 --> 0:34:1.260 Jacob M. Les femmes étaient dans une zone. Nous, les hommes, nous étions dans une autre zone, mais la résidence des femmes était toujours là. Je suis comme si c'était une résidence pour les diplômés. La résidence des étudiants de premier cycle. Ça n'avait pas l'air. Elle me paraissait bien, mais je n'ai jamais vu grand-chose. 0:34:9.590 --> 0:34:9.710 Jacob M. MIT. 0:34:4.760 --> 0:34:11.560 Elliot Douglas Y avait-il beaucoup de langues différentes parlées au MIT ? Avez-vous trouvé, ou était-ce principalement l'anglais ? Oui. 0:34:15.10 --> 0:34:19.490 Jacob M. Je dirais entièrement en anglais, non, pas de langues étrangères du tout. 0:34:20.890 --> 0:34:24.890 Jacob M. Il y avait des gens, au MIT, il y avait un dortoir appelé Russian House. 0:34:26.290 --> 0:34:29.850 Jacob M. Où les gens, encore une fois principalement des hommes, parlaient russe entre eux. 0:34:30.700 --> 0:34:30.860 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:34:32.830 --> 0:34:33.390 Elliot Douglas Random. 0:34:34.310 --> 0:34:39.150 Jacob M. Un peu au hasard à Harvard à l'époque. Il y a un très bon programme chinois. 0:34:40.300 --> 0:34:42.940 Jacob M. Si les Caucasiens apprenaient, nous apprendrions le chinois. 0:34:44.590 --> 0:34:57.150 Jacob M. Il se trouve qu'à l'époque, au MIT, j'ai eu un colocataire chinois pendant environ un an, et il m'a dit qu'il avait rencontré des gens de Harvard une fois. Il m'a dit que s'il fermait les yeux, il ne les reconnaîtrait pas. Ils l'étaient. Ils n'étaient pas, pas, pas asiatiques. 0:34:58.830 --> 0:35:2.230 Jacob M. Est-il possible de parler, probablement, le mandarin ? Est-ce que c'est bien ? 0:35:3.200 --> 0:35:3.680 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:35:6.390 --> 0:35:10.710 Elliot Douglas Au MIT, comment avez-vous trouvé le genre ? la diversité des genres ? 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:13.800 Jacob M. MIT, majoritairement masculin. 0:35:15.10 --> 0:35:16.570 Jacob M. Pas de diversité du tout. 0:35:17.310 --> 0:35:17.510 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:35:17.970 --> 0:35:25.90 Jacob M. Et non, pas de discussion avec qui que ce soit, de toute sexualité autre qu'hétérosexuelle. 0:35:26.720 --> 0:35:27.360 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:35:26.330 --> 0:35:32.610 Jacob M. Je ne savais pas que quelqu'un était homosexuel, lesbienne ou gay. Rien du tout au MIT à l'époque. 0:35:34.70 --> 0:35:34.870 Jacob M. Des années plus tard. 0:35:33.750 --> 0:35:35.270 Elliot Douglas Lorsque vous étiez à l'Université d'Ottawa, vous êtes. 0:35:36.20 --> 0:35:39.980 Jacob M. Je ne me souviens de rien du tout, jamais. Tout le monde avait l'air d'être droit. 0:35:41.340 --> 0:35:47.660 Jacob M. Bien des années plus tard, je me suis inscrit au YMCA d'Ottawa, connu sous le nom de Gay Y. 0:35:48.220 --> 0:35:51.340 Jacob M. Ce qui est, vous savez, un endroit différent, des gens sympas, mais un endroit différent, c'est tout. 0:35:53.690 --> 0:35:59.210 Jacob M. Mais tout à fait différent de ce que j'ai vu dans les dortoirs au, au cœur, au MIT ou ou. 0:36:0.950 --> 0:36:3.230 Jacob M. MIT : en fait, c'est le seul endroit où j'ai vécu dans un dortoir. 0:36:4.440 --> 0:36:6.600 Jacob M. UofO de Je vivais avec ma femme dans une maison. 0:36:8.760 --> 0:36:20.520 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous de quoi ? Aviez-vous des amis à l'extérieur de l'école qui faisaient partie de la communauté LGBTQ plus, ou vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait une grande communauté LGBTQ plus à Ottawa ? 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:27.120 Jacob M. Je pense que si cela a existé, c'était très secret. Je n'étais pas du tout au courant. 0:36:28.130 --> 0:36:28.330 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:36:29.260 --> 0:36:34.220 Jacob M. Non, je me souviens de quelqu'un. Non, je me souviens. Je me souviens de 1. Je ne le ferai pas. Je ne citerai pas son nom. 0:36:44.250 --> 0:36:44.330 Elliot Douglas Mm. 0:36:35.660 --> 0:36:57.20 Jacob M. Il y en avait un en fait. Je m'entendais très bien avec lui. Nous étions très amicaux l'un envers l'autre. Il y avait un gay, un homme que je savais être gay à l'époque, et il avait un ami à la faculté de droit que je soupçonnais d'être également gay. Mais nous n'en avons jamais parlé. On se taquinait, c'est tout. Mais rien sur le sexe. Mais tout le reste, c'est la politique au Québec et tout le reste. 0:36:57.850 --> 0:36:58.90 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:36:57.340 --> 0:37:2.420 Jacob M. C'est le seul qui me vienne à l'esprit. Il est malheureusement mort du sida. 0:37:3.380 --> 0:37:6.300 Jacob M. En 80, 85 ou quelque chose comme ça. 0:37:7.220 --> 0:37:14.940 Jacob M. Et j'ai obtenu. J'ai obtenu une bourse à son nom et à la faculté de droit de l'UofO, qui est toujours. Je ne vais pas. Je ne mentionnerai pas le nom, mais la bourse est toujours là. 0:37:15.650 --> 0:37:17.170 Elliot Douglas Wow, c'est phénoménal. 0:37:17.810 --> 0:37:21.90 Jacob M. Nous allons collecter de l'argent et je ne voulais pas que son nom soit oublié. 0:37:22.20 --> 0:37:24.380 Elliot Douglas Bien sûr, c'est incroyable. 0:37:26.290 --> 0:37:35.170 Jacob M. Mais vous me rappelez des choses auxquelles je n'ai pas pensé depuis des années. J'ai soupçonné quelqu'un d'autre d'être gay, mais j'ai appris 40 ans plus tard qu'il l'était. 0:37:36.300 --> 0:37:36.500 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.360 Jacob M. Quelqu'un d'autre étant quelqu'un d'autre dans mon école de droit. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.660 Elliot Douglas Oh, OK. 0:37:41.390 --> 0:37:44.350 Jacob M. Mais à l'époque, je ne faisais pas partie de cette communauté. 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:47.980 Jacob M. C'est juste qu'il n'y a pas d'implication. 0:37:49.940 --> 0:37:50.300 Jacob M. Pre. 0:37:48.590 --> 0:37:52.910 Elliot Douglas Oui. Quelle était l'attitude sur le campus ? Si vous vous en souvenez ? 0:37:55.170 --> 0:38:9.690 Jacob M. Je ne peux pas parler au nom du campus. Je ne parle que pour moi. J'ai juste. Je n'en ai pas fait grand cas. Ce n'est pas quelque chose auquel j'ai beaucoup pensé. Je connaissais un gars dont je savais qu'il était gay ou que j'avais deviné qu'il l'était. Il était sympathique. J'étais amical. C'était un bon gars. 0:38:10.290 --> 0:38:10.690 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:38:11.330 --> 0:38:20.130 Jacob M. Je n'ai jamais essayé de l'analyser au-delà de cela. Je n'ai jamais douté que, vous savez, c'était quelqu'un de bien. Il est honnête, éthique, sincère. Rien de tout cela ne m'est venu à l'esprit. 0:38:22.430 --> 0:38:24.710 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous aujourd'hui ? 0:38:27.140 --> 0:38:27.300 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:38:25.700 --> 0:38:29.980 Jacob M. Je suis probablement trop simple. Ce n'est pas la question. Ou deux acceptant des personnes, je ne sais pas lesquelles. 0:38:30.30 --> 0:38:36.910 Elliot Douglas Non, non, c'est merveilleux. Mais de nos jours, nous avons des Gsa et. 0:38:37.260 --> 0:38:40.500 Jacob M. Puis-je vous faire patienter sur un point ? 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:50.920 Jacob M. Certaines personnes, en fait une femme en particulier avait Je ne mentionnerai pas le terme une de mes camarades de classe femmes avait un terme négatif pour décrire mon ami qui était gay. 0:38:52.620 --> 0:38:53.380 Jacob M. Ce que je savais. 0:38:55.0 --> 0:38:56.360 Jacob M. Que je ne répéterai pas, mais... 0:38:57.70 --> 0:38:57.310 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:38:57.430 --> 0:39:2.790 Jacob M. Encore une fois, vous me rappelez des souvenirs et je ne les ai pas refoulés, juste oubliés. 0:39:3.210 --> 0:39:3.770 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:39:5.160 --> 0:39:8.960 Elliot Douglas Si je peux me permettre, votre ami était-il assez ouvert sur sa sexualité ou ? 0:39:10.780 --> 0:39:19.740 Jacob M. Non, c'est juste une de ces personnes. On le rencontre et on lui parle. Et si vous aviez le moindre gaydar, ce que je ne connaissais même pas à l'époque. Mais même s'il est gay. 0:39:21.990 --> 0:39:24.910 Jacob M. Alors que les deux autres camarades de ma classe étaient homosexuels. Je n'en avais aucune idée. 0:39:27.100 --> 0:39:39.140 Elliot Douglas Intéressant. Aujourd'hui, il y a beaucoup d'alliances gay-hétéro ou de clubs destinés aux étudiants homosexuels. Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait quelque chose de ce genre sur le campus à l'époque ou sur l'un des campus que vous avez fréquentés ? 0:39:40.70 --> 0:39:43.990 Jacob M. Absolument rien. Rien du tout. Ce n'était pas un problème. 0:39:44.850 --> 0:39:46.210 Jacob M. N'a pas été un problème du tout. 0:39:47.260 --> 0:40:9.380 Jacob M. Je pourrais, je peux vous dire une autre chose, j'ai été exposé à beaucoup de gays. J'ai travaillé en français et en anglais. J'étais vendeur à Montréal un été dans un grand magasin du centre-ville. Mais nous avions pas mal de gays. Nous vendions des vêtements pour hommes et un grand nombre d'homosexuels venaient y acheter des vêtements. J'en étais donc conscient. Ils étaient là. 0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:15.440 Jacob M. Mais encore une fois, ils, vous savez, ils m'ont bien traité. Je les ai traités. C'était des clients, donc. 0:40:16.580 --> 0:40:17.540 Elliot Douglas Oui, bien sûr. 0:40:18.330 --> 0:40:24.890 Jacob M. J'étais donc conscient qu'il y avait une population gay là-bas, mais je n'avais aucune idée de l'ampleur de ce qu'ils faisaient. 0:40:27.860 --> 0:40:34.20 Elliot Douglas Oh, c'est vraiment intéressant et c'est une très bonne vision que vous avez eue à l'époque, sans aucun doute. 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:38.360 Jacob M. Cela vient probablement de ma mère, qui ressentait cela de manière très nette. 0:40:43.30 --> 0:40:43.70 Elliot Douglas M. 0:40:40.530 --> 0:40:52.370 Jacob M. Nous vivons et laissons vivre. Ma mère travaillait comme bibliothécaire dans une bibliothèque de l'Université de Montréal, et beaucoup d'étudiants, beaucoup de ses étudiants, les étudiants qu'elle voyait étaient gais. 0:40:53.580 --> 0:40:55.780 Jacob M. Elle m'en parlait de temps en temps. 0:40:56.720 --> 0:40:56.840 Elliot Douglas Hmm. 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:1.80 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait quelque chose de différent ? 0:41:2.640 --> 0:41:9.720 Elliot Douglas Comme McGill ou le MIT, avec des étudiants homosexuels ou autres, y avait-il des rumeurs à ce sujet ? 0:41:13.70 --> 0:41:13.230 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:41:10.430 --> 0:41:14.150 Jacob M. Non, je ne suis conscient de rien, je ne suis conscient de rien du tout. 0:41:15.230 --> 0:41:15.950 Elliot Douglas Pas de souci. 0:41:22.50 --> 0:41:22.410 Elliot Douglas Oui. 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:31.640 Jacob M. Mais je pense qu'au MIT, l'attitude américaine dominante de l'époque aurait été la même. Ce qui s'appliquait, et je n'avais peut-être pas cette attitude parce que j'apportais essentiellement des valeurs canadiennes avec moi. Mais j'ai aussi eu une fois un colocataire américain, et c'était... 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:35.40 Jacob M. Nous n'en avons jamais parlé. 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:40.600 Elliot Douglas Non, c'est très intéressant. 0:41:43.530 --> 0:41:45.490 Elliot Douglas Oui, OK, je pense. 0:41:48.890 --> 0:41:51.170 Elliot Douglas Désolé, je reviens en arrière pour m'assurer. 0:41:50.470 --> 0:42:2.230 Jacob M. Eh bien, s'il vous plaît, n'oubliez pas que vous avez posé toutes les questions, si vous voulez revenir et poser les questions rafraîchissantes, c'est très bien, mais vous êtes vos pensées incitatives. Je n'ai pas, vous savez, des domaines auxquels je n'ai pas pensé depuis des années. 0:42:3.440 --> 0:42:4.400 Elliot Douglas Je suis heureux de l'entendre. 0:42:6.40 --> 0:42:11.680 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous de quelque chose à propos de la musique de l'époque ? Quel genre de musique écoutiez-vous, vous et votre femme ? 0:42:14.720 --> 0:42:17.760 Jacob M. Ma femme écoutait beaucoup de musique. Je ne sais pas ce qu'elle écoutait. 0:42:19.260 --> 0:42:26.340 Jacob M. Je ne suis pas très musicien. Je ne me suis jamais intéressé à la musique. Je suis gêné de dire que nous sommes allés, nous sommes allés à libu quelques fois pour écouter de la musique. 0:42:26.750 --> 0:42:26.950 Elliot Douglas Mm hmm. 0:42:27.700 --> 0:42:31.940 Jacob M. Euh, s'il y a un concert quelque part dans la ville en plein air, nous pourrions y aller. 0:42:33.510 --> 0:42:35.710 Jacob M. Mais je ne me souviens pas beaucoup de la musique. 0:42:37.660 --> 0:42:41.740 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous de grands films sortis à l'époque ou d'émissions de télévision ? 0:42:43.270 --> 0:42:45.150 Jacob M. TV well TV shows. 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:55.440 Jacob M. Je me souviens que des racines sont apparues à cette époque, sur l'expérience des Noirs aux États-Unis. 0:42:55.600 --> 0:43:1.120 Jacob M. Il y a eu des films. Il y a des films sur l'Holocauste. Eh bien, c'est sorti plus tard. Je suis désolé. Roots est sorti pendant. 0:43:2.460 --> 0:43:11.580 Jacob M. Je crois que je me trompe. Les racines, le film sur l'Holocauste et le film sur les racines sont sortis après. La seule chose à laquelle je peux penser, c'est que je l'ai vu. J'ai vu le film Fiddler on the roof à Ottawa. 0:43:11.870 --> 0:43:12.470 Elliot Douglas Oh. 0:43:12.900 --> 0:43:15.20 Jacob M. Peut-être après la deuxième année de droit, quelque chose comme ça. 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:24.40 Elliot Douglas Vous souvenez-vous qu'il y avait beaucoup d'étudiants noirs à l'Université d'Ottawa, ou plus généralement ? Y avait-il beaucoup de Noirs dans la ville ? 0:43:24.490 --> 0:43:25.970 Jacob M. Oui, nous en avons eu un. 0:43:26.810 --> 0:43:30.650 Jacob M. Dans notre classe, il y avait un Noir, un Noir, un Noir. 0:43:33.740 --> 0:43:41.260 Jacob M. D' une manière générale, non. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup de Noirs dans cette ville à l'époque. Elle était très, très, très blanche à l'époque. 0:43:48.410 --> 0:43:51.90 Elliot Douglas D'accord, je pense que c'est possible. 0:43:53.300 --> 0:44:1.300 Elliot Douglas Toutes les questions à passer en revue, y a-t-il autre chose que vous aimeriez ajouter au sujet de votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ou dans d'autres établissements ? 0:44:4.900 --> 0:44:5.260 Elliot Douglas Yep, Yep, Yep. 0:44:2.390 --> 0:44:5.750 Jacob M. Je pense que vous avez compris l'essentiel de l'histoire. 0:44:5.790 --> 0:44:15.110 Jacob M. Et vous savez, j'espère que cet enregistrement vous sera utile, à vous et à d'autres. Comme je l'ai dit, 10 ans après ma mort, je montrerai la vidéo à tous ceux qui voudront la voir. 0:44:17.370 --> 0:44:20.370 Jacob M. Je l'ai été. C'est pourquoi je n'ai cité personne, mais de toute façon par son nom. 0:44:21.670 --> 0:44:26.950 Jacob M. Préservez les confidences et un peu de secret. Mais non, je n'ai rien à ajouter. 0:44:27.780 --> 0:44:30.580 Elliot Douglas Bien sûr. Merci beaucoup. Je vais terminer l'enregistrement très rapidement. 0:44:30.910 --> 0:44:31.710 Jacob M. C'est très bien. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas, Elliot Location The location of the interview Toronto, Ontario, Canada Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., Jacob (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about life in and around uOttawa, as well as Boston, Massachusetts during the 1960’s and 70’s. Mainly concerning life at the Law School at the University of Ottawa, and gender, sexuality, and race relations. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-20 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Person An individual. Birth Date 1955 Birthplace Netherlands Schools Attended University of Ottawa 1977-80 Cégep of Hull 1975-76 Degree BA Career business Occupation Accountant Biographical Text Accountant, 1982-2015 Ethnicity Dutch Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource G., George (pseudonym) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Reinvall-Stevens, Aila Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Naiomi (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview United States of America (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound First theme AR: The first theme focuses on the impact of popular culture. The question reads; “cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood and popular music created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa U was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together.” N: Uhh AR: Okay, so to specify, there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s– N: Well. Talking about no electronics stuff. We used slide rules because calculators were just starting to be allowed, but they were expensive and most people couldn't afford them. So to be fair, we were not allowed to use calculators, so we used slide rules. AR: Oh my gosh, I can’t imagine. How was your leisure time structured on campus? What did students do for fun? N: I left home after my first year of university, so I put myself through university working as a lifeguard and in the summer on the beaches at Britannia. Umm, so leisure time, I was one of the few people who rented. There was three of us who roomed together for years, and we all went to the University of Ottawa. We rented a house on College Ave, which was right across from a Quonset Hut. And we had the basement and the first floor, so we were a group of people who had their own private place, no parents. So we were a party place at that time. AR: Ohh yeah. So you guys hosted? N: Yeah. So there was a group of us where we all worked hard, and every one of them has become a professional and whatnot. But, I would say that the recreation time was spent smoking, not pot, it was, um hash. Yeah, we had hash because bringing pot from Mexico up to Canada is really bulky and expensive. So we smoked hash, and the other reason was alcohol was more expensive. I'll tell you what we considered to be good wine, baby duck. The other thing was you filled your bathtub with alcohol and added like, I don't know what we added, but it was, you know, you got plain alcohol from the lab and you threw in something that tasted like grenadine. So it sounds like it was, it was really awful, but all of us were working. All of us were trying to get into professional schools and did, but. That's the truth. AR: Yeah, was it like work hard party hard? N: We, you know, we couldn't get so stoned that we couldn't get up the next day and go to work you know, so I look back on it now, and it seems really scary, but it was different. I'm a physician, and I've seen people addicted to pot. Uh, but that wasn't the way it was for us back then. AR: So would you say that that was pretty standard for the time? Like would you say there was a rich party life at Uottawa? N: No, no, no, no, I wouldn't, at least not for the students I was involved with. I was in science and when I started, they said you could tell the difference between students with a science major and arts major, and I think it's true because we had classes 3 hours straight in the morning, labs all afternoon, and then we worked. So there wasn't a lot of partying, and everybody I knew was trying to get into medical school, and that was very highly competitive. The one guy who didn’t aspire to medical school ended up at Harvard, and he uncovered the gene for Huntington's chorea. So, so the people knew they wanted a big future and didn’t want to waste their education partying. AR: OK. So being in a competitive major shaped a student’s ability to party? N: Yeah, yeah. Well, I also didn't know people who had the money. Uh. See, when I left home I left because I was fed up with the Catholic Church. So I left home with nothing, and most of the people I was with didn't have financial support from anywhere else. So we worked. I didn't know people who partied, I didn't know, people who had the luxury to not work and party. Most of the people I knew were very successful students, you know? So that's not a hard-partying crowd. And most people didn't drop out either. AR: OK. Yeah, so the majority of leisure time was spent studying, working and occasionally having parties? N: Yes. Yeah. A lot of studying. AR: Were there any popular hangout spots on and off campus? N: Well, there was the chemistry common room. It was phenomenal. Like you would go in there, there were discussions, there were discussions about ideas, there were people playing chess or other games, you know. When I was encouraging my kids to go to university I said the importance of university is getting out of your landlocked ideas of what's right and wrong and listening to the opinions of other people. Like, that's the whole point, and you got that in the university common room. There was 24 hours a day poker play. You know, poker games nonstop. I never played poker, but there was always a 24-hour poker Game on. The chemistry common room was basically the science common room. There was also the engineering building, which the engineers shared with the nurses but that was built while I was there so until that was built, like everybody just hung around in the chemistry common room, and it was really enriching. AR: And would you say that there was a different experience on campus for French and English students? N: Yes. The language was English in science. It wasn't a bilingual University for those programs. Medical school was English. AR: Oh OK. N: One of the reasons I went to the University of Ottawa is I found out I got early admissions and I have exam phobia. Can you imagine a doctor having exam phobia? AR: Oh my gosh. It must have been a long journey! N: Well yeah, so, but, in order to get into other universities, they had just started the MCAT, but because the MCAT was not bilingual, the University of Ottawa didn't require it. So I've found out I got early admissions and I didn't show up for the MCAT. But other than that, it was English. It was English on the science campus. I was brought up from the time I was five years old to be bilingual, went to French schools and you know, my mother made sure we had extra French classes going through an English highschool. But there was no opportunity to speak French freely. There was no need to speak French. Science was English. AR: Ok. Interesting. So in your experience it really wasn't linguistically integrated. N: It was just English on campus. AR: Yeah, so you wouldn’t have any knowledge or recollection on if, like anglophones and francophones were dating each other. N: No. AR: OK, no worries. What did the student body think of the Vietnam War at the time? N: Well, we were against it and, yeah, it was a pretty liberal campus. Most people were sympathetic of protestors and obviously, Canada was a safe haven for draft dodgers and these were teenagers and people in their early twenties so there was sympathy for them. Umm, I remember there was fear struck in the community when it was reported that the soldiers coming back from Vietnam were bringing back penicillin-resistant gonorrhea, you know, aids and everything else. But you know, it was interesting because that spoke to sort of an awareness or the beginning of an awareness that what's going on over there could impact what you do in bed. AR: Right. So being in the science department really shaped your peer group's perspective of the war. N: Yeah. And there was a student health service, but I mean most people didn't have access to the support they’d need if they were to be affected by these STI’s. AR: So did you have anyone that you knew that was actively protesting, or more just you and your acquaintances passively observed the war? N: I didn't know anyone that was actively protesting, but my sister, who was at McGill at the time and she was dating a guy who was American and his job was to infiltrate American protests and take pictures of protesters and send the pictures to the FBI. AR: That is so interesting. Wow. N: Yeah. So that's true. That's true. AR: Wow. N: So there was a personal, knowledge or second-hand knowledge that democracy doesn’t really exist. Whoever has the power rules. AR: Yeah. Wow, so the science department was pretty liberal, would you say? N: Yeah. Our orientation was definitely liberal, but again, we were working hard, like six-hour classes or labs every day. So, I think that is why I didn’t see many of my peers actively protesting. AR: Yeah, definitely. Umm, so the next question regards rock'n'roll music. Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? N: Well, I remember when I was in what grade five or six my teacher was appalled that I liked The Beatles. But it wasn't an issue with my parents. So there were six kids in the family, and, you know, we didn't have money to go to concerts. But yeah, it wasn’t an issue of you can’t listen to that or similarly there were hardly any television shows they would say you can’t watch that. Which is odd, retrospectively, because my mother was a fanatic Catholic. But, no issues. AR: Interesting, yeah. So, moving back to what you were saying earlier about recreational drugs, would you say that recreational drugs were widely available? N: Yes. There was one guy in our group, he actually, uh, he was the only one. OK so, we did hash and alcohol and weed if we got it. But weed was one that was hard to get and expensive. Anyways, it didn’t really matter to us, whatever was cheapest and there and again weed was hard to get to Canada and often too expensive. But there was a guy and he did acid, and he got into medical school at Uottawa. Um. And at the time, they kept cocaine on the crash carts. Cocaine was originally used for medical reasons, and he would steal the cocaine, and I don’t know what happened to him. AR: Oh my gosh! N: I’m not going to give you his name because, yeah. AR: Yeah. N: But all of our group. And there were engineers, doctors and nobody went beyond hash, and baby duck or whatever concoction we came up with. But he was the only person who I knew in our program who went that far. And even then, he had no trouble getting stuff. AR: Okay. So recreational drugs were easily attained if you had the finances? N: Yeah. Cocaine wasn’t huge, it was just he made a point of saying he was stealing it from the universities hospital crash carts. AR: And would you say hallucinogens or psychedelics were popular on campus? N: Well, yeah. People were doing acid, and you know, people were talking about Ohh Gee, you know, could these people be lacing or contaminating the water. But anyway, not in my group we were hell-bent on getting into whatever program we wanted to get into. AR: So being in a competitive program really shaped – N: Yeah, we weren't exploring like some other people did on campus. This guy did, and I am probably going to try to Google him after to see where he ended up. We talked about him because he was really stretching the boundaries of being in such a competitive program and indulging. AR: Wow. Yeah. Second theme, first question AR: So we're gonna move on to the second theme if that is alright with you. N: Yeah AR: OK, so this one is regarding the female experience on campus. So we have three different sections in this theme and three different main questions. So we're going to begin with the first one: “Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second-wave feminism that as part of the countercultural movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s?” N: Ohh yeah so so there were very few women in science. What was it. They had these science queen and king, which is just the way they did things back then. I think I was a science Princess. I had pigtails and, you know, I used to shop at the Salvation Army. AR: OK, so still a lot of traditional gender roles. N: Yeah. But umm, there weren't many women, so, they'd have, you know women only parties for the women in science and there was only like 10 of us? Like there weren't very many. So there was this sense that the women should get together in an attempt to make a sort of group. AR: Oh nice! Being such a minority in your major did you feel any discrimination in class? N: No. No. I didn’t feel any problem with any of the professors or anything. Not at all. The great thing about doing science at the time was if you had a question, you could go to your prof. Gee, when I was in my second year, a prof was assigned to each student. And most people didn't take advantage of it. But I did, and I never felt uncomfortable. However, the issue was getting into medical school right and the question of quotas. Uh, so they had to have a certain number of women because things were changing. Like when I was in high school, I was an Ontario scholar and you had to go to your guidance counsellor to speak about what you want to do. And he was like “what do you want to do? You can do anything,” and I said I want to be a doctor and he said “you can’t do that” and I said, “why not?” And he said “because youre a woman.” Like that was high school counselling for me. And then I was the first year where graduating from high school, grade 13, where you couldn’t apply directly from grade 13 to the Faculty of Medicine and get accepted to medicine from high school. So my year, we were the first group who had to take either two years of undergraduate or a three-year degree and then apply to medical school. Anyways, by the time I was applying it became that medical school had to accept a certain number of women so we had a better chance of getting in. But then it became a conversation of “you had a better chance of getting in because you’re from Sudbury and they’ve gotta take certain people from certain regions.” or “you had a better chance of getting in because you’re a woman.” so thats where that thing kind of started. AR: Ok. Yeah. N: Yeah so when I started medical school in 74, 30% of our class was female. I think that was the largest group of female people, the class of 82 There were comments about the French Canadian females. I wouldn't hear about the English females right, but I definitely heard that the French females were not as smart as the other students. AR: Interesting. Did you feel there were different expectations for women on campus? Or were women less accepted in clubs or departments? N: No. And here's the thing, undergrad, there was no difference. You know, the classes were huge, and the professors were great, and so I did not feel any discrimination in terms of sexism. Yeah, it was definitely just the guys playing poker, but that sort of sexism was sort of expected then. I mean, there were playboys all over the place in the common room. But the joke was “yeah, I read them for the articles” or something, but but the articles were good and I learned an awful lot from them. But in in clinical medicine, the discrimination was huge and it was from the nurses. AR: Oh. Really? So, moving into a higher degree, the sexism got worse. N: Yes. It was from the nurses and some of the old doctors. And this wasn’t just at the University of Ottawa I found the same while I did my residency in Pheonix which, you know, is a right-wing state, so it was arguably worse in Pheonix. I remember I was a medical student at Uottawa and I was waiting to scrub in on a case and waiting and waiting and waiting. Like waiting an hour and a half, and then a nurse coming in and asking if I took the scrub in class, and I said no and she says “Well then you can’t scrub in.” It was constant. Or you would wait to get into the OR, and then the nurses would say no, you have to wear double this and double that. And I remember one time I just said, well, why doesn't everybody else? And then she backed off. It was if we were learning to do a procedure there was no point in asking nurse, they were not going to help you. If you were doing night call in the middle of the night, they would call you with “Hey, you know a patient pooped and we think its blood.” and you would get there and its clearly a tomato peel. They did not like women doctors. It was not pleasant. AR: Interesting. Do you know why the female nurses treated female doctors so markedly differently? Do you have a theory? N: Well. I don’t know. The whole thing was that doctors were a guaranteed easy life. So work in the hospital, find a cute guy, get married, and you’re set. You can not work, and they wouldn't be around much. And that was openly discussed, uh, you know, so they didn’t want a female doctor. And the male students never got that from the nurses, maybe because they were good-looking men. But it's yeah, it was pretty vicious. People were brutal. It wasn’t just the nurses who had this attitude. I got married my last year to a man in my class, and I'd never changed my name and well, the reason we ended up splitting is because he didn’t want me to practice. And I told him, “John, you don't go to medical school for a Mrs, you go for a MD.” But there were other people, I remember there was one doctor who refused to use my name and would page me with my husband's name. Second theme, second question AR: So we'll move on to the second main question of this theme. So historians have written a lot about what they call the countercultural revolution, meaning your generation rebelled against the value of your parent's generation to what extent did you see your social circles as needing to mobilize more so society and create a better world? N: So in terms of the, the big things were the hair, hair was an issue. Long hair. Boys were starting to wear earrings, and it was, “oh does that mean they’re gay?” But I'll tell you, being gay was not on the radar. And that's really interesting because in retrospect, a close friend of mine that I had known from when I was seven years old when we were posted to Europe, and we're still in sort of touch now, he was gay. Turns out my brother's gay now. Umm. It was not on our radar. I knew what the term homosexual meant, but it wasn't at all in my world, but my world. Right? Lester Pearson gets the Nobel Prize for Peace. We thought Canada was great at the same time, you know, our government was kidnapping children from First Nations people, and they were sterilizing people whose IQ is below a certain level without their consent, that was what was going on in the 60s and 70s and we didn't know about it right. There was no social media, there was no way for us to find out. And what I knew was because my dad had been in Europe during the Nuremberg trial as you know, is a legal person and then back in the Justice Department. So, we knew about homosexuality and that it was a security risk. OK, so so, but, but sex was not discussed at all in our house. Not at all like it was. We were brought up neuter cause my mother. In retrospect, uh, my my mother probably should never have had kids. She probably should have been a doctor. She became a nurse. But you know, the dynamics of our family were that she thought marriage was 100% one-sided. It's a good deal for the men and that we should all get jobs so that we would be financially independent. So the, the conflicts were religion. In terms of pot, it was you drink alcohol like cocktail parties, right? That was the thing that our parents generation. But what are those? Those are just, you know, that was their thing. We'd say pot is safer than knockout, which it is. Mind you that both at this stage still addictive and in terms of yeah. the Vietnam War, I mean, I didn't have a global perspective of stuff, but that wasn't an issue in, in our family or that I knew of, you know, would be discussed. That wasn't really an issue for Canadians. AR: So in terms of, let's say, dating or gender did you and your parents have a disagreement about – N: Ah. My first serious boyfriend when I was fourteen, he was the head boy at Napean. He was two years ahead of me and again a genius like he went to MIT and he did AI in the 70s, and he's a professor at UBC now. Umm. But he was Presbyterian, you know. AR: Oh, so the wrong religion. N: Wrong religion. That was, yeah. When I say my mother was rigid Catholic, she was rigid Catholic. AR: And even in your early childhood, you did not feel a connection to that rigidity? N: Oh well. Oh, no. So I was in a Catholic school on and I skipped kindergarten went right into grade one. And so five years old and reading in French and English, and preparing for First Communion. And I was given a book called Stories and Songs for First Communicants, and it was about 5-year-olds who'd been martyred. I was being trained at that level. So people talk about ohh they're being trained to be martyrs. Umm. You know, I thought this was the important thing. No matter what happens, you should be ready to die for your religion. And I'm I look back on that, you can hear my voice. I'm just appalled that that was that was going on and at that. At the time the Governor General, Vincent Massey, his grandchildren were in our class. I think the stats were kinda was 80% Catholic at that time and Umm the age the legal age I think of marriage in Quebec was 13 for girls. AR: Oh my. So religion and religious influence was something you felt was out of whack and unjust? N: Yeah. Yeah definitely. And a women married woman who worked in Quebec could not have their own bank account. AR: Oh my goodness – N: Yeah, that was then. That was then, right? So, so so that that was disintegrated as the Catholic Church lost control over Quebec throughout the quiet revolution and everything. Uh, that happened, but in in so in our family that was that was a huge issue, but again, dating a presbyterian like it was an eye-opener to different ideas. And I went to the libraries of the Presbyterian churches in the Lutheran Church. I live near Broadway Broadview rather and so there were a lot. Umm. of churches and they all had their libraries tonight. It was just like, oh, like different versions of this story. AR: OK, so by the time you reached your undergrad, would you say that you had moved away from that sense of rigidity? N: Oh, I went from. I went from as a kid going to be a nun to basically an agnostic. By the time I was an undergrad, I, you know, 17 it was and. Yeah, and now I'm fairly spiritual I think the basic course of most religions are to allow the community to survive and to help humans deal with the slings and arrows like the sadness and enjoys. But where there's profit to be made, there's corruption to be had. AR: Umm at the time, did you feel that the political system was democratic and responsible for its citizens in the 1970s? N: Oh, I thought put up or shut up. I was politically active. My ambition was to be the first female Prime Minister of Canada. Yep, I went on, you know, miles per million. That was the first march for Oxfam. And I would write to my Member of Parliament when I was a competitive swimmer, and we had an international team in the summers like this, this group. So, the children from the Egyptian embassy, the Syrian embassy and the Ottawa kids in the 1967 war. You have to double-check the dates, but there was a train strike. There was a train strike, so Parliament was in session during the summer, so we would go to the beach and do our swimming. This was in the Rideau River because there were only two indoor pools, and in Ottawa at the time, there were only two pools They started getting pools, so we swam in the river at Brighton Beach and then we would go to. We would contact our MP and we get tickets, and we would sit in for the question period in Parliament and that was an eye opener, so we, because you would see how the questions were handled in session and then you'd see how they were reported. So I always had a sense that unlike the United States, where you had to have money to get anywhere that anybody could be an MP, anybody could do it. And so that citizens really did have a role. And I still think the disintegration of democracy is because people are saying they're the government, forgetting that we are the government anyway. AR: Oh OK. So you really felt the government was democratic and – N: Yes. Yes. Second theme, third question AR: OK. So we're going to just move on to the third question of the segment, which reads, “cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with that statement?” N: Yes, but abortion wasn't abortion wasn't that easy. I didn't have sex until because I wanted to get into medical school. You got pregnant you know whether you were married or not that was over. There was one kid. One lady in our class, a plastic surgeon in Toronto, who none of us knew that she had. AR: Oh really? N: Yeah, yeah. I didn't know. I didn't know that she had a kid. That was that was really hushed up but. So I did not have sex until birth control pills were available, and abortions were not available in Canada. You had to drive down to Ogdensburg, NY and they costed $250, and for me $250 was huge. Cause I worked, you know I couldn't take a day off, you know my food, my rent. I always had $250 in the bank in case because I knew stuff could fail. So, abortions were not legal. One of my girlfriends, Her birth control pills were actually crap. Not crap, but they were very high dose, so people were getting migraines. They were getting deep vein thrombosis and they were legalized ortho Novum 150, so 50 micrograms of ethinylestradiol, whereas your generation's birth control pills are either no Ethinyl Estradiol, which quite frankly causes breast cancer, but that's another story, or 35 micrograms or lower. But our generation, you started off with 50 and if you had breakthrough bleeding, they went up to 80. I kid you not. AR: OK. N: So my girlfriend had deep vein thrombosis, and she ended up getting pregnant. So this is a gal I roomed with and was in medical school. Umm. But because she was in medical school, she could get an abortion DNC, but not easy at all. AR: Yeah. N: You couldn't get tubal ligation at the Ottawa general. That was when it was down in the market. But it did give women a chance to get into professions. And the other thing that happened was our parents started getting divorced. Now, my parents didn't get divorced, but after 25 years of marriage, the women's movement allowed these women option’s, because otherwise, what women do, be a teacher or a bank teller and that was only if you were gorgeous or flight attendants again only if you were gorgeous. And by the way, the women who were flight attendants they had eating disorders because they had weigh-ins. AR: Oh, really? N: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I used to see them as an endocrinologist. So you know, there's a whole thing for your women's studies groups like it's huge. AR: Umm, so did you feel that access to birth control changed the way that dating looked on campus? N: Yes. Yeah, people had sex. Even Catholics, yeah. AR: How did your generation look at like marriage or family? I guess in your experience, specifically in the science department, do you feel like that was secondary to education? N: Yeah. For the women are people there was that. There weren't very many of us. Yeah, there weren't very many of us. Uh, yeah, we were there to get it clear, and we, we didn't want like I didn't want kids weren't a priority. I didn't want to have a kid, you know, I remember in medical school, you know, this professor was talking about women with irregular periods. And I put my hand up and I said, well, what's the problem with having irregular periods? And he says, well might be difficult to have kids. And I said, well, what if you don't want to have kids, you know, there was no answer. It was Well, you're gonna have kids. AR: So the older generation still felt that sense of, well, the goal is to have a family where you women had options. N: We had options, yeah. AR: In your experience what did dating look like at UOttawa? N: Oh. Uh. It was always secondary to schooling. Definitely. I think everyone focused most on grades and getting into their programs right. The women in Science were very driven, and I don’t remember any of us being very fixated on dating. Final section AR: OK, so unless you have anything else to say, we'll move on to our final section. N: That's fine. AR: OK, so this one just has a little bit of a disclaimer because the theme is around sexuality and any harassment on campus. N: Well, harassment on campus. So I lived at the corner of college. Right beside the science building. It's like when you come off the first turn, but so we were there and then there was construction as the new law building was going up. So about 3 houses down, my roommate Ellen uh, was sexually, Umm. I don't know what happened to her, but she was. She was physically, sexually abused in the parking lot on her way home from law school in broad daylight. AR: Was that addressed by the university? Or did she even bring that up to higher ups? N: No. You knew they weren't going to do anything. The security wasn't, you know, we didn't think about it. So that security is everywhere now, but it wasn't then, you know, you're totally on your own. Like I used to, I used to walk down King Edward to Uh, you know, work in the market, you just you just walked all over the place by yourself. I never felt in danger but people Umm, you know, people did get raped on campus, but it was it was always covered up. It still is. AR: OK, before I ask any follow-up questions, I'm just gonna issue this disclaimer. Umm the following section is optional and concerning sexuality and harassment. We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. You may choose to not answer the questions that make you feel uncomfortable, or we can skip the section entirely. Are you fine if I ask if you other questions? N: Yeah I’m fine, but that's the interesting thing. Your generation issues disclaimers. Our generation, like there was. Now we're pretty insensitive. We weren't, we weren't enlightened and you know it's it's sort of like in America when they are discriminating against, you know, blacks, they know they are, they know they're saying something racist. I moved back to Canada in 2013 and ended up in Winnipeg for seven years. They didn't have a clue that what they were saying was racist about the First Nations. People like they didn't even know anyway. Go ahead. AR: So the first question regards, I mean security on campus, but the question is many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did the University of authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? I'm getting the sense that that just wasn't a thing. N: It wasn't. It wasn't a thing. AR: Interesting. OK, so currently we have like security on campus, we have buttons to press with like alarms and whatever. Was there any campus security whatsoever? N: Ohh yeah, because there was a lot of construction going on. And I have to, I have to admit that this guy Ziggy, who I never really liked, but Ziggy used to steal toilet paper from the engineering building when it was being built. Like you know, it's it's like, so there was, uh, so there were security, but the security was to protect the campus rather than the people than the women. So yeah, and and it was, you know, it was, you know, was a downtown campus. It wasn't all the beautiful buildings and stuff. Quonset huts and these houses have now been torn down. I mean, I had rats in my. I slept in the basement. There were rats there. AR: No, my gosh. N: No, I learned a lot about rats. I have tremendous respect for them, tremendous respect. AR: What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? Was it like viewed negatively, accepted, or – N: Wasn't it wasn't an issue, it it happened and it wasn't an issue. In terms of getting intoxicated and having sex, I don't know, but then I was in I was in a work hard play hard, but I mean. If somebody was having premarital sex wasn't an issue. AR: OK, so you didn't notice any kind of, umm, like? Like slutshaming or that sort of thing on campus. N: No, no. I mean, no, everybody I knew what was was, was independent and on birth control pills and. You know, even if you had sex, those people might be, you know, scoring higher marks. And they'd get into medical school and you wouldn't. You know, it was like there it it was not an issue where you did with with yourself was not an issue. AR: Interesting. N: I don't even think, I knew anyone who is gay. I didn't know that I didn't know. Like I didn't know my brother was gay, but but he didn't either. Right? Cause 'cause. Really, I remember asking him when he was 40. Are you gay? Cause you know unmarried guy who's 40 and you know, no serious relationships ever. And and he said no and. Umm. So because people didn't know that there, that that sexuality was in a continuum, you know, people didn't know that. So they didn't know they could be. There's no language to express it in those days, but I don't think for somebody who was straight and white, you know, you don't notice the problems that unstraight on white people have. You know, it's unless you're black, you don't know the hassles of being black. AR: Yeah, definitely. OK. Well, thank you so much for talking with me. I really appreciate it. I know you’re really busy and we’re coming right up on that hour mark so I will let you go. But everything you had to say was very interesting, especially as your perspective in well, even now I believe science is still male dominated so – N: The discrimination is absolutely huge. The reason I'm not an academic medicine that you know the Weinstein effect, those guys are still at the head of my profession. So they, you know, putting their arm around you, calling you up at a conference and asking if you want company at 11:00 o'clock at night, that it's not a glass ceiling, it's a plexiglass ceiling. It's way better in Canada, but it is horrendous here in the States and you can see the relentless the women have given up like they are not talking, they are giving up. They have no idea how bad it's gonna be. What's happened to the women in Afghanistan can, on a different scale, happen here.I mean, I'm in the states. It's just harm, but that's why I went back to Canada for seven years but the medicine and Winnipeg is 20 years behind. And anyway, I will let you go because you've got this is Saturday and I appreciate you doing it. I just have absolutely no downtime. AR: Yeah. No, of course. Thank you for making time! N: Of course. You have a great day. AR: Bye bye. N: Bye bye. Transcription Translation Premier thème AR : Le premier thème porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire. La question est la suivante : "Les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood et la musique populaire ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. L'Université d'Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés". N : Euhh AR : D'accord, donc pour préciser, il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne pendant les années 1970... N : Eh bien. Je parle de l'absence d'électronique. Nous utilisions des règles à calcul parce que les calculatrices commençaient tout juste à être autorisées, mais elles étaient chères et la plupart des gens ne pouvaient pas se les offrir. Pour être juste, nous n'avions pas le droit d'utiliser des calculatrices, alors nous utilisions des règles à calcul. AR : Oh mon Dieu, je ne peux pas imaginer. Comment était structuré votre temps libre sur le campus ? Que faisaient les étudiants pour s'amuser ? N : J'ai quitté la maison après ma première année d'université, alors je me suis payé l'université en travaillant comme sauveteur et, l'été, sur les plages de Britannia. Pour les loisirs, j'étais l'une des rares personnes à louer. Nous étions trois à partager la même chambre pendant des années, et nous allions tous à l'Université d'Ottawa. Nous louions une maison sur College Ave, juste en face d'un Quonset Hut. Nous avions le sous-sol et le premier étage, nous étions donc un groupe de personnes qui avaient leur propre espace privé, sans parents. Nous étions donc un lieu de fête à l'époque. AR : Ohh ouais. Vous étiez donc des hôtes ? N : Oui. Nous étions un groupe qui travaillait dur, et chacun d'entre nous est devenu un professionnel, etc. Mais je dirais que le temps de récréation était consacré à fumer, pas de l'herbe, c'était du hasch. Oui, nous avions du hasch parce que faire venir de l'herbe du Mexique au Canada est vraiment encombrant et coûteux. Nous fumions donc du haschisch, et l'autre raison était que l'alcool était plus cher. Je vais vous dire ce que nous considérions comme du bon vin, du petit canard. L'autre chose, c'est qu'on remplissait sa baignoire d'alcool et on y ajoutait, je ne sais pas ce qu'on y ajoutait, mais c'était, vous savez, de l'alcool ordinaire du labo et on y ajoutait quelque chose qui avait le goût de grenadine. On dirait que c'était, c'était vraiment horrible, mais nous travaillions tous. Nous essayions tous d'entrer dans des écoles professionnelles et nous l'avons fait, mais... C'est la vérité. AR : Oui, c'était comme travailler dur, faire la fête dur ? N : Nous, vous savez, nous ne pouvions pas être tellement défoncés que nous ne pouvions pas nous lever le lendemain et aller travailler, vous savez, alors je regarde en arrière maintenant, et cela semble vraiment effrayant, mais c'était différent. Je suis médecin et j'ai vu des gens dépendre de l'herbe. Mais ce n'était pas comme ça pour nous à l'époque. AR : Diriez-vous que c'était la norme à l'époque ? Diriez-vous qu'il y avait une vie de fête intense à Uottawa ? N : Non, non, non, non, je ne dirais pas cela, du moins pas pour les étudiants avec lesquels j'étais impliqué. J'étais en sciences et quand j'ai commencé, on m'a dit qu'on pouvait voir la différence entre les étudiants en sciences et ceux en arts, et je pense que c'est vrai parce que nous avions des cours trois heures d'affilée le matin, des laboratoires tout l'après-midi, et ensuite nous travaillions. Il n'y avait donc pas beaucoup de fêtes, et tous ceux que je connaissais essayaient d'entrer à l'école de médecine, ce qui était très compétitif. Le seul type qui n'avait pas l'intention de faire des études de médecine s'est retrouvé à Harvard, où il a découvert le gène de la chorée de Huntington. Les gens savaient donc qu'ils voulaient un grand avenir et qu'ils ne voulaient pas gâcher leur éducation en faisant la fête. AR : OK. Donc le fait d'être dans une discipline compétitive a influencé la capacité d'un étudiant à faire la fête ? N : Oui, oui. Je ne connaissais pas non plus de gens qui avaient de l'argent. Je ne connaissais pas non plus de gens qui avaient de l'argent. Vous voyez, quand j'ai quitté la maison, je suis parti parce que j'en avais marre de l'Église catholique. J'ai donc quitté la maison sans rien, et la plupart des gens avec qui j'étais n'avaient pas de soutien financier de qui que ce soit d'autre. Nous avons donc travaillé. Je ne connaissais pas de gens qui faisaient la fête, je ne connaissais pas de gens qui avaient le luxe de ne pas travailler et de faire la fête. La plupart des gens que je connaissais étaient des étudiants qui réussissaient très bien, vous savez ? Ce n'était donc pas des fêtards invétérés. Et la plupart des gens n'abandonnaient pas non plus leurs études. AR : OK. Oui, donc la majorité du temps libre était consacré aux études, au travail et occasionnellement à des fêtes ? N : Oui. Oui. Beaucoup d'études. AR : Y avait-il des endroits populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur ? N : Eh bien, il y avait la salle commune de chimie. C'était phénoménal. On y entrait, il y avait des discussions, des débats d'idées, des gens qui jouaient aux échecs ou à d'autres jeux. Lorsque j'encourageais mes enfants à aller à l'université, je leur disais que l'importance de l'université était de sortir de ses idées enclavées sur ce qui est bien ou mal et d'écouter les opinions d'autres personnes. C'est là tout l'intérêt, et c'est ce que l'on trouve dans la salle commune de l'université. On y jouait au poker 24 heures sur 24. Vous savez, des parties de poker non-stop. Je n'ai jamais joué au poker, mais il y avait toujours une partie de poker 24 heures sur 24. La salle commune de chimie était en fait la salle commune des sciences. Il y avait aussi le bâtiment d'ingénierie, que les ingénieurs partageaient avec les infirmières, mais il a été construit pendant que j'étais là, alors jusqu'à ce qu'il soit construit, tout le monde traînait dans la salle commune de chimie, et c'était vraiment enrichissant. AR : Et diriez-vous que l'expérience sur le campus était différente pour les étudiants français et anglais ? N : Oui. La langue était l'anglais en sciences. Ce n'était pas une université bilingue pour ces programmes. L'école de médecine était en anglais. AR : Oh, d'accord. N : L'une des raisons pour lesquelles je suis allé à l'Université d'Ottawa est que j'ai découvert que j'avais été admis en avance et que j'avais la phobie des examens. Pouvez-vous imaginer qu'un médecin ait la phobie des examens ? AR : Oh mon Dieu, ça a dû être un long voyage ! N : Oui, mais pour entrer dans d'autres universités, on venait de commencer à faire passer le MCAT, mais comme le MCAT n'était pas bilingue, l'Université d'Ottawa ne l'exigeait pas. J'ai donc découvert que j'avais été admis en avance et que je ne m'étais pas présenté au test d'aptitude à la maîtrise. Mais à part cela, c'était l'anglais. C'était l'anglais sur le campus scientifique. Dès l'âge de cinq ans, j'ai été élevée dans le bilinguisme, j'ai fréquenté des écoles françaises et ma mère s'est assurée que nous suivions des cours de français supplémentaires dans une école secondaire anglaise. Mais je n'ai jamais eu l'occasion de parler librement le français. Nous n'avions pas besoin de parler français. La science, c'était l'anglais. AR : Ok. Intéressant. Donc, d'après votre expérience, il n'y avait pas vraiment d'intégration linguistique. N : Il n'y avait que de l'anglais sur le campus. AR : Oui, donc vous ne savez pas si les anglophones et les francophones sortaient ensemble. N : Non. AR : D'accord, pas de problème. Que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam à l'époque ? N : Eh bien, nous étions contre et, oui, c'était un campus assez libéral. La plupart des gens avaient de la sympathie pour les manifestants et, évidemment, le Canada était un refuge pour les réfractaires et il s'agissait d'adolescents et de personnes âgées d'une vingtaine d'années, de sorte qu'ils avaient de la sympathie pour eux. Je me souviens que la communauté a eu peur lorsqu'on a appris que les soldats qui revenaient du Viêt Nam ramenaient des gonorrhées résistantes à la pénicilline, le sida et tout le reste. Mais vous savez, c'était intéressant parce que cela parlait d'une sorte de prise de conscience ou du début d'une prise de conscience que ce qui se passait là-bas pouvait avoir un impact sur ce que vous faisiez au lit. AR : C'est vrai. Le fait d'être dans le département des sciences a donc vraiment façonné le point de vue de votre groupe de pairs sur la guerre. N : Oui. Il y avait un service de santé pour les étudiants, mais la plupart des gens n'avaient pas accès au soutien dont ils auraient eu besoin s'ils avaient été affectés par ces IST. AR : Est-ce que vous connaissiez quelqu'un qui protestait activement ou est-ce que vous et vos connaissances observiez passivement la guerre ? N : Je ne connaissais personne qui protestait activement, mais ma sœur, qui était à McGill à l'époque, sortait avec un Américain dont le travail consistait à infiltrer les manifestations américaines, à prendre des photos des manifestants et à les envoyer au FBI. AR : C'est très intéressant. C'est très intéressant. N : Oui. C'est donc vrai. C'est vrai. AR : Wow. N : Il y avait donc une connaissance personnelle, ou une connaissance de seconde main, que la démocratie n'existe pas vraiment. Celui qui a le pouvoir gouverne. AR : Oui. Le département des sciences était donc plutôt libéral, diriez-vous ? N : Oui. Notre orientation était définitivement libérale, mais encore une fois, nous travaillions dur, comme des cours de six heures ou des laboratoires tous les jours. Je pense que c'est la raison pour laquelle je n'ai pas vu beaucoup de mes pairs protester activement. AR : Oui, tout à fait. La question suivante concerne la musique rock'n'roll. Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme une musique rebelle ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire ? N : Eh bien, je me souviens que lorsque j'étais en cinquième ou sixième année, mon professeur était consterné par le fait que j'aimais les Beatles. Mais ce n'était pas un problème pour mes parents. Nous étions six enfants dans la famille et, vous savez, nous n'avions pas d'argent pour aller aux concerts. Mais oui, ce n'était pas un problème d'interdiction d'écouter ça ou, de la même manière, il n'y avait pratiquement pas d'émissions de télévision pour lesquelles on disait qu'on ne pouvait pas regarder ça. Ce qui est étrange, rétrospectivement, parce que ma mère était une catholique fanatique. Mais il n'y avait pas de problème. AR : Intéressant, oui. Pour en revenir à ce que vous disiez tout à l'heure sur les drogues récréatives, diriez-vous que les drogues récréatives étaient largement disponibles ? N : Oui. Il y avait un gars dans notre groupe, il était en fait, euh, il était le seul. Nous prenions du haschisch, de l'alcool et de l'herbe si nous en avions. Mais l'herbe était difficile à obtenir et chère. De toute façon, ça n'avait pas vraiment d'importance pour nous, tout ce qui était le moins cher et là encore, l'herbe était difficile à obtenir au Canada et souvent trop chère. Mais il y avait un gars qui prenait de l'acide et qui a été admis à l'école de médecine de l'Université d'Ottawa. Hum. Et à l'époque, ils gardaient de la cocaïne sur les chariots d'urgence. La cocaïne était à l'origine utilisée pour des raisons médicales, et il volait la cocaïne, et je ne sais pas ce qui lui est arrivé. AR : Oh mon Dieu ! N : Je ne vais pas vous donner son nom parce que, oui. AR : Oui. N : Mais tous les membres de notre groupe. Il y avait des ingénieurs, des médecins, et personne n'est allé plus loin que le hasch, et le baby duck ou n'importe quelle concoction que nous avons trouvée. Mais c'est la seule personne que je connaissais dans notre programme qui soit allée aussi loin. Et même là, il n'avait aucun mal à se procurer des produits. AR : D'accord. Les drogues récréatives étaient donc faciles à obtenir si vous aviez les moyens financiers ? N : Oui. La cocaïne n'était pas énorme, c'est juste qu'il se faisait un point d'honneur de dire qu'il la volait dans les chariots de réanimation des hôpitaux universitaires. AR : Et diriez-vous que les hallucinogènes ou les psychédéliques étaient populaires sur le campus ? N : Eh bien, oui. Les gens prenaient de l'acide, et vous savez, les gens parlaient de Ohh Gee, vous savez, est-ce que ces gens pourraient trafiquer ou contaminer l'eau. Mais de toute façon, pas dans mon groupe, nous étions déterminés à entrer dans le programme que nous voulions. AR : Le fait d'être dans un programme compétitif a donc vraiment façonné... N : Oui, nous n'explorions pas comme d'autres le faisaient sur le campus. Ce type l'a fait, et je vais probablement essayer de le chercher sur Google pour voir où il a fini. Nous avons parlé de lui parce qu'il repoussait vraiment les limites d'un programme aussi compétitif et qu'il se laissait aller. AR : Wow. Oui, c'est vrai. Deuxième thème, première question AR : Nous allons donc passer au deuxième thème, si vous êtes d'accord. N : Oui AR : OK, ce thème concerne l'expérience des femmes sur le campus. Nous avons donc trois sections différentes dans ce thème et trois questions principales différentes. Nous allons donc commencer par la première : "Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, selon lequel, dans le cadre du mouvement contre-culturel, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ?" N : Ohh oui, il y avait très peu de femmes dans les sciences. Qu'est-ce que c'était ? Il y avait des reines et des rois de la science, ce qui est tout à fait dans l'air du temps. Je crois que j'étais une princesse de la science. J'avais des nattes et, vous savez, je faisais mes courses à l'Armée du Salut. AR : D'accord, donc encore beaucoup de rôles traditionnels pour les hommes et les femmes. N : Oui. Mais il n'y avait pas beaucoup de femmes, alors ils organisaient des fêtes réservées aux femmes scientifiques et nous n'étions que 10 ? Nous n'étions pas très nombreuses. Il y avait donc ce sentiment que les femmes devaient se réunir pour essayer de former une sorte de groupe. AR : Oh, c'est bien ! En tant que minorité dans votre matière principale, avez-vous ressenti de la discrimination en classe ? Je n'ai ressenti aucun problème avec les professeurs ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Je n'ai eu aucun problème avec les professeurs. L'avantage de faire de la science à l'époque, c'est que si vous aviez une question, vous pouviez vous adresser à votre professeur. Lorsque j'étais en deuxième année, un professeur était assigné à chaque étudiant. La plupart des étudiants n'en ont pas profité. Moi, je l'ai fait et je ne me suis jamais sentie mal à l'aise. Cependant, le problème était d'entrer correctement à l'école de médecine et la question des quotas. Il fallait qu'il y ait un certain nombre de femmes parce que les choses changeaient. Quand j'étais au lycée, j'étais boursière de l'Ontario et il fallait aller voir son conseiller d'orientation pour lui parler de ce que l'on voulait faire. Il m'a dit : "Qu'est-ce que tu veux faire ? Tu peux faire n'importe quoi" et j'ai dit que je voulais être médecin et il a dit "tu ne peux pas faire ça" et j'ai dit "pourquoi pas ?". Et il a dit "parce que tu es une femme". C'est comme ça que j'ai été conseillée au lycée. Et puis j'ai été la première année où, à la fin du lycée, en 13e année, on ne pouvait pas s'inscrire directement à la faculté de médecine et être accepté en médecine à partir du lycée. Nous étions donc le premier groupe à devoir faire deux ans de licence ou trois ans d'études, puis à postuler à l'école de médecine. Quoi qu'il en soit, au moment où j'ai posé ma candidature, il est apparu que l'école de médecine devait accepter un certain nombre de femmes pour que nous ayons plus de chances d'être admises. Mais ensuite, on s'est mis à dire : " Tu as plus de chances d'être acceptée parce que tu viens de Sudbury et qu'ils doivent prendre des gens de certaines régions " ou " Tu as plus de chances d'être acceptée parce que tu es une femme ", et c'est comme ça que tout a commencé. AR : D'accord. N : Oui, quand j'ai commencé l'école de médecine en 74, 30% de notre classe était composée de femmes. Je pense que c'était le plus grand groupe de femmes, la classe de 82. Je n'aurais pas entendu parler des Anglaises, mais j'ai entendu dire que les Françaises n'étaient pas aussi intelligentes que les autres étudiants. AR : Intéressant. Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'il y avait des attentes différentes pour les femmes sur le campus ? Les femmes étaient-elles moins bien acceptées dans les clubs ou les départements ? N : Non. Et voici ce qu'il en est, en licence, il n'y avait pas de différence. Les classes étaient énormes, les professeurs excellents, et je n'ai donc pas ressenti de discrimination en termes de sexisme. Oui, il n'y avait que les gars qui jouaient au poker, mais ce genre de sexisme était en quelque sorte attendu à l'époque. Il y avait des play-boys partout dans la salle commune. Mais la blague était "ouais, je les lis pour les articles" ou quelque chose comme ça, mais les articles étaient bons et j'ai appris énormément de choses grâce à eux. Mais en médecine clinique, la discrimination était énorme et elle venait des infirmières. AR : Oh. Vraiment ? Donc, en passant à un niveau supérieur, le sexisme s'est aggravé. N : Oui. C'était le fait des infirmières et de certains vieux médecins. Et ce n'était pas seulement à l'Université d'Ottawa, j'ai constaté la même chose lorsque j'ai fait mon internat à Pheonix qui, vous savez, est un état de droite, alors on peut dire que c'était pire à Pheonix. Je me souviens que j'étais étudiant en médecine à Uottawa et que j'attendais d'être affecté à un cas, et que j'attendais, et que j'attendais, et que j'attendais. J'ai attendu une heure et demie, puis une infirmière est entrée et m'a demandé si j'avais suivi le cours de préparation, j'ai répondu non et elle m'a dit "Eh bien, vous ne pouvez pas vous préparer". C'était constant. Ou bien vous attendiez pour entrer dans la salle d'opération, et les infirmières vous disaient non, vous devez porter deux fois ceci et deux fois cela. Je me souviens d'une fois où j'ai dit : "Pourquoi les autres ne le font-ils pas ? Et elle a fait marche arrière. Si nous apprenions à faire une procédure, il était inutile de demander à l'infirmière, elle n'allait pas nous aider. Si vous faisiez une garde de nuit au milieu de la nuit, ils vous appelaient pour vous dire "Hé, vous savez, un patient a fait caca et nous pensons qu'il s'agit de sang" et vous arriviez sur place et il s'agissait clairement d'une peau de tomate. Ils n'aimaient pas les femmes médecins. Ce n'était pas agréable. AR : Intéressant. Savez-vous pourquoi les infirmières traitaient les femmes médecins de manière si différente ? Avez-vous une théorie ? N : Eh bien, je ne sais pas. Je n'en sais rien. L'idée était que les médecins étaient assurés d'une vie facile. Travaillez à l'hôpital, trouvez un beau garçon, mariez-vous, et le tour est joué. Vous pouvez ne pas travailler, et ils ne seraient pas très présents. Et c'était ouvertement discuté, euh, vous savez, donc ils ne voulaient pas d'une femme médecin. Et les étudiants masculins n'ont jamais obtenu cela des infirmières, peut-être parce qu'ils étaient de beaux hommes. Mais c'est vrai, c'était assez vicieux. Les gens étaient brutaux. Les infirmières n'étaient pas les seules à avoir cette attitude. Je me suis mariée la dernière année avec un homme de ma classe, et je n'avais jamais changé de nom, et la raison pour laquelle nous nous sommes séparés, c'est qu'il ne voulait pas que j'exerce. Je lui ai dit : "John, tu ne vas pas à l'école de médecine pour avoir une Mme, tu vas pour avoir un M.D.". Mais il y avait d'autres personnes, je me souviens d'un médecin qui refusait d'utiliser mon nom et qui me bippait avec le nom de mon mari. Deuxième thème, deuxième question AR : Nous allons donc passer à la deuxième question principale de ce thème. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution contre-culturelle, ce qui signifie que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure avez-vous considéré que vos cercles sociaux devaient se mobiliser davantage pour la société et créer un monde meilleur ? N : En termes de, les grandes choses étaient les cheveux, les cheveux étaient un problème. Les cheveux longs. Les garçons commençaient à porter des boucles d'oreilles, et on se demandait si cela signifiait qu'ils étaient gays. Mais je peux vous dire que l'homosexualité n'était pas un sujet d'actualité. Et c'est très intéressant parce que, rétrospectivement, un de mes amis proches que je connaissais depuis l'âge de sept ans, lorsque nous avons été affectés en Europe, et nous sommes toujours en contact, était gay. Il s'avère que mon frère est gay maintenant. Ce n'était pas dans notre ligne de mire. Je savais ce que signifiait le terme homosexuel, mais ce n'était pas du tout dans mon monde, mais mon monde. C'est vrai ? Lester Pearson reçoit le prix Nobel de la paix. Nous pensions que le Canada était un pays formidable alors que notre gouvernement kidnappait les enfants des Premières nations et stérilisait les personnes dont le QI était inférieur à un certain niveau sans leur consentement. Il n'y avait pas de médias sociaux, nous n'avions aucun moyen de nous informer. Ce que je savais, c'est que mon père avait été en Europe pendant le procès de Nuremberg, comme vous le savez, parce qu'il est juriste et qu'il est revenu au ministère de la justice. Nous étions donc au courant de l'homosexualité et savions qu'elle représentait un risque pour la sécurité. D'accord, mais on ne parlait pas du tout de sexe à la maison. Pas du tout comme avant. Nous avons été élevés dans la stérilité à cause de ma mère. Rétrospectivement, ma mère n'aurait probablement jamais dû avoir d'enfants. Elle aurait probablement dû être médecin. Elle est devenue infirmière. Mais vous savez, la dynamique de notre famille était qu'elle pensait que le mariage était à 100% unilatéral. C'est une bonne affaire pour les hommes et nous devrions toutes trouver un emploi pour être financièrement indépendantes. Les conflits étaient donc d'ordre religieux. En ce qui concerne l'herbe, il s'agissait de boire de l'alcool comme dans les cocktails, n'est-ce pas ? C'était la génération de nos parents. Mais qu'est-ce que c'est ? C'est juste, vous savez, c'était leur truc. Nous dirions que l'herbe est plus sûre que le knock-out, ce qui est le cas. La guerre du Vietnam, je veux dire, je n'avais pas une perspective globale, mais ce n'était pas un sujet dans notre famille ou que je connaissais, vous savez, qui aurait été discuté. Ce n'était pas vraiment un problème pour les Canadiens. AR : En ce qui concerne, disons, les fréquentations ou le sexe, est-ce que vous et vos parents avez eu des désaccords sur - ? N : Ah. Mon premier petit ami sérieux, quand j'avais quatorze ans, était le directeur de l'école Napean. Il avait deux ans d'avance sur moi et c'était encore un génie, il était allé au MIT et il a fait de l'intelligence artificielle dans les années 70, et il est professeur à l'UBC maintenant. Mais il était presbytérien, vous savez. AR : Oh, donc la mauvaise religion. N : La mauvaise religion. C'était, oui. Quand je dis que ma mère était une catholique rigide, elle était une catholique rigide. AR : Et même dans votre petite enfance, vous n'avez pas ressenti de lien avec cette rigidité ? N : Oh, bien. Oh, non. J'étais dans une école catholique et j'ai sauté la maternelle pour entrer directement en première année. J'avais donc cinq ans et je lisais en français et en anglais, et je me préparais à la première communion. On m'a donné un livre intitulé Stories and Songs for First Communicants (Histoires et chansons pour les premiers communiants), qui parlait d'enfants de cinq ans qui avaient été martyrisés. J'étais formée à ce niveau. Les gens disent qu'ils sont formés pour être des martyrs. Vous savez, je pensais que c'était la chose la plus importante. Quoi qu'il arrive, il faut être prêt à mourir pour sa religion. En y repensant, vous pouvez entendre ma voix. Je suis tout simplement consterné par ce qui se passait et par ce qui se passait. À l'époque, le gouverneur général, Vincent Massey, ses petits-enfants étaient dans notre classe. Je crois que les statistiques indiquaient qu'il y avait 80 % de catholiques à l'époque et que l'âge légal du mariage au Québec était de 13 ans pour les filles. AR : Oh là là. La religion et l'influence religieuse étaient donc quelque chose que vous trouviez démesuré et injuste ? N : Oui. Oui, sans aucun doute. Et une femme mariée qui travaillait au Québec ne pouvait pas avoir son propre compte bancaire. AR : Oh mon Dieu - N : Oui, c'était à l'époque. C'était à l'époque, n'est-ce pas ? Alors, alors ça s'est désintégré quand l'Église catholique a perdu le contrôle du Québec pendant la Révolution tranquille et tout le reste. Euh, c'est arrivé, mais dans notre famille, c'était un énorme problème, mais encore une fois, le fait de sortir avec un presbytérien m'a ouvert les yeux sur des idées différentes. Et je suis allé dans les bibliothèques des églises presbytériennes de l'Église luthérienne. J'habite près de Broadway Broadview et il y avait donc beaucoup d'églises. Umm. d'églises et elles avaient toutes leur bibliothèque ce soir. C'était comme, oh, comme des versions différentes de cette histoire. AR : OK, donc au moment où vous avez atteint votre premier cycle universitaire, diriez-vous que vous vous êtes éloignée de ce sentiment de rigidité ? N : Oh, je suis passé de. Quand j'étais enfant, je voulais devenir nonne, puis j'étais agnostique. Lorsque j'étais étudiante, j'ai commencé à me poser des questions. Je pense que le but de la plupart des religions est de permettre à la communauté de survivre et d'aider les humains à faire face aux difficultés, à la tristesse et à la joie. Mais là où il y a du profit à faire, il y a de la corruption à avoir. AR : À l'époque, aviez-vous le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique et responsable de ses citoyens dans les années 1970 ? N : Oh, je pensais qu'il fallait se lever ou se taire. J'étais politiquement active. Mon ambition était de devenir la première femme Premier ministre du Canada. Oui, j'ai fait, vous savez, des kilomètres par million. C'était la première marche pour Oxfam. Et j'écrivais à mon député lorsque j'étais nageuse de compétition et que nous avions une équipe internationale l'été, comme ce groupe. Les enfants de l'ambassade d'Égypte, de l'ambassade de Syrie et les enfants d'Ottawa pendant la guerre de 1967. Il faut vérifier les dates, mais il y a eu une grève des trains. Il y a eu une grève des trains, le Parlement était donc en session pendant l'été, alors nous allions à la plage et nous nous baignions. C'était dans la rivière Rideau parce qu'il n'y avait que deux piscines intérieures, et à Ottawa à l'époque, il n'y avait que deux piscines. Nous prenions contact avec notre député, nous obtenions des billets et nous assistions à la période de questions au Parlement, ce qui nous ouvrait les yeux, car nous voyions comment les questions étaient traitées en séance et comment elles étaient rapportées. J'ai donc toujours eu le sentiment que, contrairement aux États-Unis où il faut avoir de l'argent pour arriver quelque part, n'importe qui pouvait devenir député, n'importe qui pouvait le faire. Les citoyens avaient donc vraiment un rôle à jouer. Et je continue à penser que la désintégration de la démocratie est due au fait que les gens disent qu'ils sont le gouvernement, oubliant que nous sommes le gouvernement de toute façon. AR : Oh, d'accord. Vous pensiez donc que le gouvernement était démocratique et... N : Oui. Oui. Deuxième thème, troisième question AR : OK. Nous allons donc passer à la troisième question de la séquence, qui est la suivante : "Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations hommes-femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ?" N : Oui, mais l'avortement n'était pas si facile. Je n'ai pas eu de relations sexuelles jusqu'à ce que je veuille entrer à l'école de médecine. Si vous tombiez enceinte, que vous soyez mariée ou non, c'était fini. Il y avait un enfant. Une femme de notre classe, une chirurgienne plastique de Toronto, dont aucun d'entre nous ne savait qu'elle était enceinte. AR : Oh vraiment ? N : Oui, oui. Je ne le savais pas. Je ne savais pas qu'elle avait un enfant. C'était très discret. Je n'ai donc pas eu de relations sexuelles jusqu'à ce que les pilules contraceptives soient disponibles et que les avortements ne soient pas disponibles au Canada. Il fallait se rendre à Ogdensburg, dans l'État de New York, et l'avortement coûtait 250 $, et pour moi, 250 $, c'était énorme. Parce que je travaillais, je ne pouvais pas prendre un jour de congé, je devais payer ma nourriture, mon loyer. J'avais toujours 250 dollars à la banque au cas où, parce que je savais que tout pouvait échouer. Les avortements n'étaient pas légaux. Une de mes amies, ses pilules contraceptives étaient en fait de la merde. Pas de la merde, mais elles étaient très fortement dosées, donc les gens avaient des migraines. Elles souffraient de thrombose veineuse profonde et elles étaient légalisées ortho Novum 150, soit 50 microgrammes d'éthinylestradiol, alors que les pilules contraceptives de votre génération ne contiennent pas d'éthinylestradiol, qui provoque franchement le cancer du sein, mais c'est une autre histoire, ou 35 microgrammes ou moins. Mais pour notre génération, on commençait par 50 et si on avait des saignements intermittents, on montait jusqu'à 80. Je ne plaisante pas. AR : OK. N : Ma copine a eu une thrombose veineuse profonde et elle est tombée enceinte. C'est une fille avec qui je partageais ma chambre et qui était à l'école de médecine. Mais parce qu'elle était à l'école de médecine, elle pouvait obtenir un avortement DNC, mais ce n'était pas facile du tout. AR : Oui. N : On ne pouvait pas se faire ligaturer les trompes à l'hôpital général d'Ottawa. C'était à l'époque où le marché était en baisse. Mais cela a donné aux femmes une chance d'accéder à des professions. L'autre chose qui s'est produite, c'est que nos parents ont commencé à divorcer. Mes parents n'ont pas divorcé, mais après 25 ans de mariage, le mouvement féministe a permis à ces femmes d'avoir des options, parce que sinon, ce que les femmes font, c'est être enseignante ou caissière de banque, et cela seulement si vous êtes belle, ou hôtesse de l'air, encore une fois, seulement si vous êtes belle. Et d'ailleurs, les femmes qui étaient hôtesses de l'air souffraient de troubles de l'alimentation parce qu'elles étaient soumises à des contrôles de poids. AR : Oh, vraiment ? N : Oh mon Dieu, oui. Et j'avais l'habitude de les voir en tant qu'endocrinologue. Il y a donc toute une série de groupes d'études féminines, c'est énorme. AR : Umm, avez-vous eu l'impression que l'accès au contrôle des naissances a changé la façon dont les rencontres se déroulaient sur le campus ? N : Oui. Oui, les gens avaient des relations sexuelles. Même les catholiques, oui. AR : Comment votre génération considérait-elle le mariage ou la famille ? Je suppose que dans votre expérience, en particulier dans le département des sciences, vous avez l'impression que c'était secondaire par rapport à l'éducation ? N : Oui. Pour les femmes, il y avait cela. Nous n'étions pas très nombreuses. Oui, nous n'étions pas très nombreuses. Euh, oui, nous étions là pour que les choses soient claires, et nous, nous ne voulions pas, comme je ne voulais pas que les enfants soient une priorité. Je ne voulais pas avoir d'enfant, vous savez, je me souviens à l'école de médecine, vous savez, ce professeur parlait des femmes qui avaient des règles irrégulières. J'ai levé la main et j'ai demandé quel était le problème des règles irrégulières. Il m'a répondu qu'il était peut-être difficile d'avoir des enfants. Et j'ai dit, et si vous ne voulez pas avoir d'enfants, vous savez, il n'y avait pas de réponse. C'était "Eh bien, tu vas avoir des enfants". AR : L'ancienne génération avait donc encore ce sentiment que l'objectif était d'avoir une famille où les femmes avaient des options. N : Nous avions des options, oui. AR : D'après votre expérience, à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa ? N : Oh, euh. C'était toujours secondaire par rapport aux études. C'est certain. Je pense que tout le monde se concentrait sur les notes et sur l'admission à leur programme. Les femmes en sciences étaient très motivées, et je ne me souviens pas qu'aucune d'entre nous ait été obsédée par les relations amoureuses. Dernière partie AR : Bon, à moins que vous n'ayez autre chose à dire, nous allons passer à la dernière partie. N : Très bien. AR : D'accord, cette section contient un petit avertissement parce que le thème porte sur la sexualité et le harcèlement sur le campus. N : Eh bien, le harcèlement sur le campus. J'habitais à l'angle de l'université. Juste à côté du bâtiment des sciences. C'est comme quand vous sortez du premier virage, mais nous étions là et il y a eu des travaux de construction pour le nouveau bâtiment de droit. Alors, environ trois maisons plus bas, ma colocataire Ellen euh, a été sexuellement, Umm. Je ne sais pas ce qui lui est arrivé, mais elle l'a été. Elle a été agressée physiquement et sexuellement sur le parking, alors qu'elle rentrait chez elle après ses études de droit, en plein jour. AR : L'université s'en est-elle occupée ? Ou en a-t-elle même parlé à des personnes plus haut placées ? N : Non. Vous saviez qu'ils n'allaient rien faire. La sécurité n'était pas, vous savez, nous n'y avons pas pensé. La sécurité est omniprésente aujourd'hui, mais ce n'était pas le cas à l'époque, vous savez, vous êtes totalement livré à vous-même. J'avais l'habitude de descendre King Edward pour aller travailler au marché. Je ne me suis jamais sentie en danger, mais des gens Umm, vous savez, des gens ont été violés sur le campus, mais c'était toujours caché. C'est toujours le cas. AR : OK, avant de poser des questions complémentaires, je vais juste faire cette mise en garde. La section suivante est facultative et concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Nous sommes conscients que tout le monde ne se sentira pas à l'aise avec ces questions et nous tenons à rappeler que votre participation est entièrement volontaire. Vous pouvez choisir de ne pas répondre aux questions qui vous mettent mal à l'aise, ou nous pouvons sauter la section entièrement. Cela ne vous dérange pas si je vous pose d'autres questions ? N : Oui, ça va, mais c'est ça qui est intéressant. Votre génération émet des avertissements. Notre génération, comme il y en avait une. Maintenant, nous sommes assez insensibles. Nous n'étions pas, nous n'étions pas éclairés et vous savez, c'est un peu comme aux États-Unis quand ils font de la discrimination contre, vous savez, les Noirs, ils savent qu'ils sont, ils savent qu'ils disent quelque chose de raciste. Je suis revenu au Canada en 2013 et j'ai passé sept ans à Winnipeg. Ils n'avaient pas la moindre idée que ce qu'ils disaient était raciste à l'égard des Premières nations. Des gens comme eux ne le savaient même pas de toute façon. Allez-y. AR : La première question concerne la sécurité sur le campus, mais la question est que de nombreuses universités aujourd'hui ont été forcées de lutter contre le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure les autorités de l Université des autorités a-t-elle surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes ? J'ai l'impression que cela n'existait pas. N : Ce n'était pas le cas. Ce n'était pas le cas. AR : Intéressant. OK, donc actuellement nous avons une sorte de sécurité sur le campus, nous avons des boutons à presser avec des alarmes et tout le reste. Y avait-il une quelconque sécurité sur le campus ? N : Oh oui, parce qu'il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours. Et je dois admettre que ce type, Ziggy, que je n'ai jamais vraiment aimé, avait l'habitude de voler du papier hygiénique dans le bâtiment d'ingénierie lorsqu'il était en construction. Comme vous le savez, c'est comme, il y avait, euh, il y avait la sécurité, mais la sécurité était pour protéger le campus plutôt que les gens, plutôt que les femmes. Alors oui, et c'était, vous savez, c'était, vous savez, c'était un campus au centre-ville. Il n'y avait pas tous ces beaux bâtiments et tout le reste. Les huttes Quonset et ces maisons ont été démolies. Je veux dire, j'avais des rats dans ma maison. Je dormais au sous-sol. Il y avait des rats. AR : Non, mon Dieu. N : Non, j'ai beaucoup appris sur les rats. J'ai énormément de respect pour eux, énormément de respect. AR : Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? Était-elle perçue négativement, acceptée ou... ? N : Ce n'était pas un problème, ça arrivait et ce n'était pas un problème. Pour ce qui est de s'intoxiquer et d'avoir des relations sexuelles, je ne sais pas, mais j'étais dans un milieu où l'on travaillait dur et où l'on jouait dur, mais je veux dire que si quelqu'un avait des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, c'était une question de vie ou de mort. Si quelqu'un avait des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, ce n'était pas un problème. AR : OK, donc vous n'avez pas remarqué de, umm, comme ? Comme le slutshaming ou ce genre de choses sur le campus. N : Non, non. Je veux dire, non, toutes les personnes que je connaissais étaient indépendantes et prenaient des pilules contraceptives. Vous savez, même si vous aviez des relations sexuelles, ces personnes pourraient avoir de meilleures notes. Et ils entraient à l'école de médecine et pas toi. Vous savez, c'était comme si ce n'était pas un problème de savoir ce que vous faisiez avec vous-même, ce n'était pas un problème. AR : Intéressant. N : Je ne pense même pas, je connaissais quelqu'un qui était gay. Je ne savais pas que je ne savais pas. Par exemple, je ne savais pas que mon frère était gay, mais il ne le savait pas non plus. C'est ça ? Parce que... Vraiment, je me souviens lui avoir demandé quand il avait 40 ans. Es-tu gay ? Parce que vous savez, un célibataire de 40 ans qui n'a jamais eu de relations sérieuses. Et il a dit non et... Umm. Alors parce que les gens ne savaient pas que la sexualité était un continuum, vous savez, les gens ne le savaient pas. Ils ne savaient donc pas qu'ils pouvaient l'être. Il n'y avait pas de langage pour l'exprimer à l'époque, mais je ne pense pas que pour quelqu'un qui était hétéro et blanc, vous savez, vous ne remarquez pas les problèmes que les personnes non hétéro et blanches ont. Vous savez, à moins d'être noir, vous ne connaissez pas les problèmes liés au fait d'être noir. AR : Oui, tout à fait. D'ACCORD. Merci beaucoup d'avoir parlé avec moi. J'apprécie beaucoup. Je sais que vous êtes très occupé et que nous approchons de l'heure, alors je vais vous laisser partir. Mais tout ce que vous avez dit est très intéressant, en particulier votre point de vue sur la science, qui est encore aujourd'hui dominée par les hommes, donc... N : La discrimination est absolument énorme. La raison pour laquelle je ne suis pas un médecin universitaire, c'est que vous connaissez l'effet Weinstein, ces types sont toujours à la tête de ma profession. Ils vous entourent de leur bras, vous appellent lors d'une conférence et vous demandent si vous voulez de la compagnie à 11 heures du soir. C'est bien mieux au Canada, mais c'est horrible ici aux États-Unis et vous pouvez voir l'acharnement avec lequel les femmes ont abandonné, comme si elles ne parlaient pas, elles abandonnent. Elles n'ont aucune idée de la gravité de la situation. Ce qui est arrivé aux femmes en Afghanistan peut, à une échelle différente, se produire ici. C'est juste un préjudice, mais c'est pour cela que je suis retournée au Canada pendant sept ans, mais la médecine et Winnipeg ont 20 ans de retard. Quoi qu'il en soit, je vais vous laisser partir parce que c'est samedi et j'apprécie que vous le fassiez. Je n'ai absolument aucun temps mort. AR : Oui. Non, bien sûr. Merci de m'accorder du temps ! N : Bien sûr. Passez une bonne journée. AR : Au revoir. N : Au revoir. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naiomi (pseudonym), interview Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa during the 1970s, including the impact of popular culture, the female experience, sexuality and harassment specifically in the Science department. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 5 minutes Drugs Gender Sex Person An individual. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa (1974) University of Ottawa, Medical Doctorate (1978) Occupation Epidemiologist Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life agnostic Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Degree BA Professional degree Career professional Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Naiomi (pseudonym) Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jeremy Lussier Location The location of the interview Temiskaming Shores Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeanne-Mance Sweet Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 39 minutes and 57 seconds Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 00:00:02 --&gt; 00:00:17 <br />Jeremy Lussier: The date is October 24th, 2023. The time is 6 13 PM. This is an oral interview with Jeanne-Mance Sweet. The interviewer is Jeremy Lussier, and the topic is Life on Campus. <br /><br />00:00:18 --&gt; 00:00:21 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, Madame Jeanne-Mance, what university did you go to? <br /><br />00:00:23 --&gt; 00:00:29 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Good evening, Jeremy. I went to Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario.<br /><br />00:00:29 --&gt; 00:00:32 <br />Jeremy Lussier: And what years did you go to university?<br /><br />00:00:32 --&gt; 00:00:51 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: September 1974, and graduated for the one-year course, as a teacher at. They used to call it “Ecole normale”, which is a teacher's college, graduated at the end of April 1975. <br /><br />00:00:54 --&gt; 00:01:00 <br />Jeremy Lussier: and during your time in university, what did students do for fun on campus and around campus? <br /><br />00:01:01 --&gt; 00:02:16 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, during the year we had created a committee. And in order to make - I won't say the school was boring - but to make it more interesting, we organized a play, and it was Blanche-Neige and the 7 Dwarves, and we, we gathered in a committee, and we played all roles. I was the witch. So, and we went to perform in different schools in Sudbury area, and in surroundings the University allowed us to do so. That was a great big excitement. It was the most exciting things, thing that happened then, and of course, through the program since I was becoming a teacher. I was sibling educational courses, and we had to do also a, um, development, for from a child from 0 to 4 years old, and, uh, I had a case, and I studied that case for the full year. That was the most interesting that I really enjoyed in the University. <br /><br />00:02:18 --&gt; 00:02:26 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Sounds fun. Um, what popular hangout spots were there on campus for other things that happened on campus? <br /><br />00:02:28 --&gt; 00:03:21 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, there used to be what they used to call the Friday night gathering. Uh, the, the, the pub. And you had the choice to attend or not to attend. Um, and it was fun it was, of course, the music was then the oldies from uh you know, like, like, like Donny Osman, Elton John, Lyne and Richie, you know these old folks. And uh of course uh, we used to dance. There used to be different types of dances that uh allowed us to become uh not blind dancing, but they had like moves that the performers did, and we mimicked them. And that was quite, quite fun, actually. <br /><br />00:03:24 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, did you- <br /><br />00:03:25 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: So that was a refrain. <br /><br />00:03:28 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Sorry? <br /><br />00:03:28 --&gt; 00:03:31 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Sorry. It was every Friday night. <br /><br />00:03:31 --&gt; 00:03:33 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Did you participate every week? <br /><br />00:03:34 --&gt; 00:03:45 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Oh, no, I had - I was a serious, uh, student. So, therefore, I used to go maybe once a month. It was good enough for me. <br /><br />00:03:48 --&gt; 00:04:03 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Um, so, in today's culture at university, we use the term party culture as, um, culture within parties and such. So wha- how would you describe your party culture on campus in 1974? <br /><br />00:04:06 --&gt; 00:04:51 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, unfortunately, there were people that were always abusing the system, which that's why I never went much. Marijuana was not legal then, and some people were using it, and I didn't want to be in that game. But, therefore, they were very intelligent people, nevertheless, it's just that the way I was brought up was to be serious. If you want to become somebody in life, you gotta be serious. Gotta be dedicated in your work skills. And that's what I followed. So therefore, the parties, uh, to me were number two on the list, not number one. <br /><br />00:04:53 <br />Jeremy Lussier: And- <br /><br />00:04:52 --&gt; 00:05:01 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: On the campus, well, you, you could go anytime you want right? On the Fridays. So nope, not for me. <br /><br />00:05:02 --&gt; 00:05:10 <br />Jeremy Lussier: To what extent were recreational drugs, like marijuana that you mentioned, uh, to what extent were these drugs available on campus? <br /><br />00:05:11 --&gt; 00:06:06 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, I never fetched for any therefore I don't know where they got it, but they even had stronger stuff. I remember there used to be a liquid that they used to say that they used to buy them for $50, uh, an ampoule, a little glass container there, and they used to be stoned all weekend like from Friday till Monday. Uh, so, that was really strong. And of course, there used to be I don't remember the drug that they sniffed with the powder. They used to take that, too, some of them. But they wouldn't - didn't want to get caught, of course, and it was a whole “Hush! Hush!” I never revealed any of my friends that used to do it, because they were still, like I said, very intelligent. It's just that they wanted to have this type of fun. It was not for me. <br /><br />00:06:09 --&gt; 00:06:36 <br />Jeremy Lussier: And the music of the era. You've already mentioned some of the musicians that played at the parties that you went to, that you mentioned. But Rock and Roll in the 1960s came about quite strongly. So, did your generation's parents, so your parents’ generation, did they see Rock and Roll as more of a rebellious form of music or more of a new thing for your generation? <br /><br />00:06:36 --&gt; 00:07:37 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, my parents were old, old, because we are 11 in our family. I'm number 11, my mum. Conceived me when she was 41, had me when she was 42. My dad was 46. Therefore Rock and Roll, then, my mum was a high-spirit girl. She loved music, so she accepted any type of music, and my dad was more conservative but he went along with my mom. So therefore I would say that Rock and Roll was okay at our house. It was quite well accepted. And, and we had these little things here. Those are not CDs. They're 45s, and my mum loved - she enjoyed this type of music that I bought, and there are Rock and Roll songs in there, too. and she enjoyed that. <br /><br />00:07:38 --&gt; 00:07:49 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, in the 1970s, there was a lot of global events happening with the Cold War. Um, one of these was the Vietnam War, 00:07:49 Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Yes. <br /><br />00:07:50-00:07:59 <br />Jeremy Lussier: which ended around 1974. So, what did the student body think of this? Of the Vietnam war? <br /><br />00:07:58 --&gt; 00:08:58 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, we did have one of our nephews that attended that war, and the students like I used to be on the counselling, too, at the school, and uh they used to be um quite scared, because you don't know when the the war will end. And uh when it ended in 1974, it kind of changed the whole system because people were more receptive. They wanted peace. They wanted, uh, they wanted to have, uh, more, uh, positive relationship with, with partners, with colleagues, with students, with, you know. And we used to have these signs, peace and love. That's what we used to - every time we met someone we used to say, “Hey, good morning,” like we just wanted the peace. And that's how it deflects from uh the Vietnam war. <br /><br />00:09:00 --&gt; 00:09:06 <br />Jeremy Lussier: And how did that - how did that affect life on campus to a greater extent? <br /><br />00:09:07 --&gt; 00:09:52 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: To a greater extent I think that people started to realize that we are kind of equal, whether you're a man or a woman, whether you're a, a boy or a girl. This started, I think, that it made people realize that the importance in life is to have a team work. Like, when when my husband and I got married, it was the same thing. We wanted to have 50-50. It was not like the old days, the man overruled. And, uh, the woman used to be like the slave, sort of speech. So I think that's what happened. We started to be wanting more peace and more love around, surrounding us. <br /><br />00:09:55 --&gt; 00:10:13 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So you mentioned equality between men and women. The feminism movement in the 1970s was something that was growing into what it is today. How, how do you think the, uh, feminism movement affected life on campus in the 1970s? <br /><br />00:10:14 --&gt; 00:12:25 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: In the 1970s. Well, I'll tell you one thing. The religion courses that I took. Excuse me. There's okay. The relevant courses that I took was only taught by men. Uh, because then, Catholic religion are were really strong on the male presence. So there were no courses, religion courses, with a woman teaching. But, if you look at the overall, I think it helped to realize that it's not who presents. It's how they present. and I think that created - the year after I heard that the religion course was done by a woman, so I think it had an inflection about how the University perceived, um, how the University perceived the, uh—I got messages sorry. Uh, uh, the, how the University perceived that - the equality between a man and a woman. It started to be more because in the university you saw more men teaching than women only in the occasi- only in our, uh, Ecole Normale, which, uh, Faculté des sciences de l'éducation, now, there was a few more women, which was great because we thought it would have been only man. We were surprised when we got, uh, to the, uh, university to see women teaching, which was great to see. It started then, in 1974, a lot of women were teaching, uh, uh, students how to become teachers. <br /><br />00:12:10 --&gt; 00:12:13 <br />Jeremy Lussier: In universities, specifically, that women began teaching? <br /><br />00:12:14 --&gt; 00:12:28 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: It was like I told you in the Ecole Normale, which is a substitution of on the campus of Laurentian University. So, yeah. <br /><br />00:12:27 --&gt; 00:12:39 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, that would be on a on a grander scale, on a university scale. But, in your own words, what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970? <br /><br />00:12:40 --&gt; 00:12:41 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: What did, pardon me? <br /><br />00:12:41 --&gt; 00:12:45 <br />Jeremy Lussier: What did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? <br /><br />00:12:47 --&gt; 00:14:19 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, the hippies made a big difference, uh, in the women's status, with the equality. Um, like we used to buy uh, I think- Personally, I used to support their theory and I used to buy these necklaces that have that peace, you know the “Y”. I don't know if you’ve ever seen those. Anyways, I used to have their rings. I bought the that my husband, my boyfriend, then a ring to to say that we are supporting the fact that women and men are equal in - equal in in the different aspects. Of course you can say economically, you can say family wise, you can say you know, different domains. But in overall the women started to have a meaning. And I think, like you said the the wars, um, the 1945 war, and the Vietnam War helped that fact, and then the Hippies came along and they started to protest all over the world. Um, and to become one, to become, uh, in - to become a man and a woman. And that has equality in speech, equality in saying, equality in, in different, like, variety of, of domains. <br /><br />00:14:21 --&gt; 00:14:37 <br />Jeremy Lussier: would that include equality in the classrooms and at different social events at University, so were women given different treatment and expectations in classrooms and other social events around university? <br /><br />00:14:39.170 --&gt; 00:15:52 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: There was still, there was still more favoritism to men than women then, not, not depending, you know, depending the personality of the teacher. If he was a perceptive person, there was no problem. He saw the world as being equal. But if you had a you know, a Demisebriggs evaluation. If you had a teacher, a male teacher that used to be a, uh, more of a judging. Well, then, women had a bad spot in their class. They were not received as welcomed as men. And you could tell. But, in the majority of the classes that I attended I was lucky. There was only one that was prejudiced. The rest were pretty good. And I think it's because of all these, like I told you, the wars and also the hippies that made a difference. In the world, not only in Sudbury. <br /><br />00:15:53 --&gt; 00:16:09 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Um, so, because of the different prejudicial teachers that could be at the University, were there any programs or departments, or clubs where women were less present and accepted than men were? <br /><br />00:16:12 --&gt; 00:18:21 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, I have a little bit of difficulty answering that, since I never went fully on the campus. But I know, uh, for a fact, uh, that some of my friends that went, uh, full-time to university after they left the teacher's college and went back to university. Um, they they were a claim that there were still a little, again, more favouritism with a, with a male than women, but it kind of changed like I said in 1980 everything was almost equal. Everybody was treated fairly. But what we learnt in, I know that it might be off track, but what we learnt in the the courses that we took for the education. Uh, the books, children's books, that were favourited, favourit - like giving the image of a woman as a in the kitchen, the women that used to take care of the children, the women that used to only , uh, uh, do the the laundry and the gardening. It started to change. We had to throw all these books out. And we started to use new textbooks for kids that you saw a man holding a child, a man in the kitchen, a man doing chores. Just the change, the atmosphere, and just the change also these prejudices that women belongs in the kitchen and listening to the man all the time. Which uh, which was in the 1970, pretty strong still then. Some women didn't stay married more than 10 years because they couldn't stand the fact that they couldn't get their image. They had to do what he said. <br /><br />00:18:24 --&gt; 00:18:37 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So how did your generations’ views, and notions about gender and family, and everything you've just mentioned - how did your generation's views on those things differ from your parents’ generation? <br /><br />00:18:40 --&gt; 00:20:35 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well on, again, because of the peace and love we- the father, had a very strong image when I was young. And, um, the straps, the abuse was allowed to control the children. Well, of course I can imagine being 11 in the house could have been a little bit of a turmoil, but, needless to say, the straps or the the straps are the and on the farm, we used to be the hose, you know, hitting people. Hitting my brothers and sisters. I was the eleventh so I, I never got hit much, only with fly swatter, maybe, but nothing else. But what I perceive is that in our generation we didn't allow that, like my husband and I, we didn't want to spank. We wanted to reason the children. and I think again, that is, from the era of the 1970s that changed the outlook of the raising that I had from my mum- Mum and dad. Any they were very lovable parents, don't take me wrong, but when things didn't go right, my father and my mom used to say, “Dad, this one didn't behave today” and boom, the strap was on. Uh, but we tried, my husband and I, to raise our 3 children with more comprehension of things they were doing wrong or right without hitting. And that's a big change because of the new era. So that's the difference. Hitting and not hitting. Trying to be reasonable and trying to reason the children. <br /><br />00:20:37 --&gt; 00:20:42 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, now, looking back on the 1970s. <br /><br />00:20:43 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Yeah. <br /><br />00:20:43 --&gt; 00:20:52 <br />Jeremy Lussier: What aspects of society did you see as more out of whack or in need of fixing than others? <br /><br />00:20:57 --&gt; 00:20:59 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: In the 1970s…that was out of whack <br /><br />00:21:06 --&gt; 00:21:09 <br />Jeremy Lussier: That your generation thought needed changing, um <br /><br />00:21:11 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Oh, yes. <br /><br />00:21:11 --&gt; 00:21:13 <br />Jeremy Lussier: from what your parents’ generation did. <br /><br />00:21:14 --&gt; 00:23:19 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Oh, yes. and that's that's why, when my husband and I went out together for 5 years prior to marriage. And of course I went to Sudbury University, he went to Brampton Sheridan College. So we had a communication, and he had seen another version of the world. Um, and we, we said to each other, like when we are gonna get married. We're gonna be a teamwork. We're gonna be the 50-50. But- and it worked like, I mean, still, these days, like, you know. I do, I do construction work, and my husband does kitchen work, and, you know, we do all kinds of stuff together, of course. The children are all gone. So we do, we do. We are good teamwork. So that's what we learn from the 1970s. But the exaggeration was, it's- because I am a perceptive person, I don't like rebellion, so I didn't like the fact that they Woodstock, uh, the hippies, then. The Hippies are the ones that are really stroked. That made me feel like, “Oh, my God, they're too much!” They're just lying there smoking dope and, and stuff, uhh. We could see on TV then. They were rebellious then, and I didn't like the way they did it. Um, like, get a life. Go home at night, you know. Don't stay on the grass. I know it was summer then, but that really mentally affected me. But I really supported their theory. I think that was overexaggerated. Like, there must be other ways to rebuild and to have these type of millions of people lying on the free grass like, hello? Anyways, it’s my opinion. Um, but therefore they made such a good change in life, though. <br /><br />00:23:22 --&gt; 00:23:37 <br />Jeremy Lussier: What, what uh, in Canada Canadian society during the 1970s, what principal forms of injustice would you say were in society at that time? <br /><br />00:23:41 --&gt; 00:25:30 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Uh, injustice in a society? Well, you could. You could always see people, people that were, uh, aggressive, and people that were overdrinking people that-I remember going to different bars, and in here in Temiskaming Shores, then it used to be New Liskeard, and people used to fight, you know, all of a sudden around, you know, after everybody was having a whole bunch of fun. All of a sudden everybody was going outside to see these guys fight. Usually, it was guys. I only seen once women pulling their hair and fighting. That I didn't, again, I did not like, because my personality is not like that, but I think that was one, overdrinking. Makes you, makes you do things that really shouldn't happen. And the other thing, again, was the drugs. The drugs were really bad in our area, then. In a little town close to us, there used to be a dealer, and he used to sell bad stuff. People were so sick. And, uh, that's in the 70s. So the most traumatic things for me was the drugs, and overdrinking and, and, uh, the fighting. I didn't like the fighting because I was there to have fun. There was a nice discotheque. Everybody was dancing and having fun, and I'll suddenly see this. These people going outside, blood flying all over the place. I cannot stand it. <br /><br />00:25:31 --&gt; 00:25:37 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So did this happen at the University’s parties on Friday nights? <br /><br />00:25:38 --&gt; 00:26:39 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: No, no, actually only girlfriend and boyfriend spat, you know they would, they would say, “Oh, man, you're dancing with her more than me”, and stuff like that, you know. I didn't have that problem because I didn't go to dance with anybody else but other girls, then, we were allowed. Oh, and that was something new. In 1970s. The girls were allowed to dance together. Before it would have been tabooed. “No, no, no, no, it's only men and women that's it.” So that saved me from all these people with, that used to have quarrels of the, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend stuff. So, no, in the university. There was no fighting. They would have been kicked out of their residential area. They would have. It was a no tolerance for fighting. <br /><br />00:26:42 --&gt; 00:26:58 <br />Jeremy Lussier: In the 1970s. Did you feel that the political system of either Sudbury or Ontario or Canada as a whole - did you feel like it was democratic, fair, and responsive to citizens needs, whatever those might have been? <br /><br />00:27:00 --&gt; 00:29:16 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: In 1974. That's 50 years ago. Let me see now, what what was the political? I don't recall anything, anything that was harmful, really. Oh, I'll tell you. There was an unfairness concerning, you know, loans and grants when you went to university. My parents were poor and my husband's parents were poor also. Well, I mean they had food on the table. They both work, but what I mean to say, they didn't have millions of dollars in the bank. So there used to be, uh, they used to allow, government used to allow grants and loans. So grants you don't have to pay, loans you have to pay back. So needless to say, this girl that her parents had businesses, and she was really, really well off. She got like $5,000 to go to university. I got $1,200. My husband got 7, $600. So we thought, “Okay. So what they've done is, they put expenses of their business, and she's got a whole bunch of money.” You know what I mean? So that was not fair, economically. So, uh, needless to say, that's one thing that I remember that I was really mad, because I thought “her parents, they have a great big mansion, they have 4 or 5 businesses, and she's got that much money, and she's bragging about it, and here I am with $1,000, and I have to pay back.” I had no grants. And she had grants besides. So that, really I remember that because it really, I thought it was unfair. So again, it was the way that the papers were done. So that's the only economic situation that I can remember politically. That was incorrect. <br /><br />00:29:17 --&gt; 00:29:26 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Do you remember any political things that you found unfair or fair, that aren't economic? <br /><br />00:29:29 --&gt; 00:29:45 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Uhh, no, I don't. Actually I, I cannot recall any events I woud- not remember. I don't remember enough. I'm so sorry, I can't. <br /><br />00:29:46 --&gt; 00:30:05 <br />Jeremy Lussier: That's okay. So, cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the Birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the “free love” ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with that statement? And what are your thoughts on it? <br /><br />00:30:07 --&gt; 00:32:16 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Well, yes, it did made an impact. Um, there's a lot of people, all my friends, actually, they they used to take the Birth control pill. Because of my religion, I never did. Well, when I got married I started, but my body rejected it, so I never took, never took the pill ever. So, therefore, but they used to. Yes, it did, it did have an impact. Every - like, there's a lot of my friends that used to have many boyfriends at the residence. I didn't find that right, uh, but was none of my business to say. Um, and you see, the girls I knew. I don't know anything about the boys. Because I didn't hang around enough with the boys to find out. And how they were behaving sexually or economically, or whatever. And in the old days the, the men used to have to pay for - if you go to the movies the man used to pay. Well, in our generation, no. When we went to the movies we knew that we were both students. With, my husband would come, with my boyfriend then, would come and visit. He would not be able to stay where I was, which it was into a private home. I only have a room. And he was able to come and visit, but, really, he was not able to stay, so he used to stay in at a friend's place or stuff, and if we went to the movies, he paid his, uh, his entrance, and I paid my entrance. We used to go Dutch. Um, saying we paid each our own. So that I remember. Free love. Yeah! It was free love! Oh, my goodness! I could not believe what I've seen. But, most of the time, myself, I didn't practise that, because, again, I was too Catholic. I was raised severely. <br /><br />00:32:18 --&gt; 00:32:27 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So you've already touched on this a little bit. But how did dating look on campus during the 1970s compared to how it looked for your parents' generation? <br /><br />00:32:30 --&gt; 00:34:05 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Yeah, the dating, the dating was bad. The dating was- some girls, like, some girls, were good. Some others-when I say girls, again, I'm sorry I don't mean to be prejudiced, but this, this is-these were some of my friends and uh, they used to tell us on the Monday what how much fun they had with this guy and this guy and this guy and oh, my God! My eyes went up in the air, and I thought, “Oh, oh, oh! They will have a disease”, and I would- don't they know that, you knowy they didn't have any frigging protections? But the dating, um, like I said, my husband and I went out 5 years. My mom and dad, comparing to them, they went out only for a year, and they got married. And mom then, was 24. My dad was 28, which was, which was quite exceptional then. She had to quit school in Grade 8 to take care of the 16 kids and the twins and stuff cause the grandpa was in a wheel chair. And my dad used to be a lumberjack, and he used to give his money that he earned to his family. So, the dating, for them, were shorter compared to us. But if you take into consideration we went to different places to study. <br /><br />00:34:08 --&gt; 00:34:12 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So, how did family and marriage look with your generation? <br /><br />00:34:15 --&gt; 00:35:51 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Family. In the 9-19, we got married 1976. We built our home in 1978. Had the first child, 1980. There were no priests that came at the house to tell us to be prosperous and to, and to have children, compared to my mum and dad. The priests used to come once a month and give them hep if they didn't have any pregnancy on the go. And that's why I'm here, cause there's 4 years difference between the number 10 to me, number 11. That my mum felt guilty, and they started to be not as careful. And here I am. She had-so the dating were shorter in the old days. In our days they were longer. A lot of my friends did the same thing that lives in the Temiskaming Shores. They went to school, and they dated some, uh, for 2 or 3 years, and they then they let go of their relationship and got a new one, but nobody got married after a year. It was always a long term relationship. And the family was very important. Um, uh, but we waited until we were financially secured to start our family. And we just had no concept of, uh-only the calendar, that's all we used as a contraception method. <br /><br />00:35:54 --&gt; 00:36:11 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So before the 1970, Anglophones and Francophones typically stayed secluded to dating each other. So, Anglophones dated Anglophones, Francophones dated Francophones. Did that change and how did that change in the 1970s? <br /><br />00:36:12 --&gt; 00:38:00 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Only man, you touched one of these sensible touch. My husband is English, I'm French. So it, it was um- But I have an older brother that got married to an English girl prior to me. So it started to roll in the eyes of my Mum and Dad. Yes, there was big rivalry between French and English then. But in the 19, again, with the hippies peace and love and stuff. A whole bunch of my friends were dating, girls or boys, French or English partners. And the lot got married as in English and French, but in my family-it's they were like resilient until they met, in a longer term, my boyfriend. And they realized, “oh, he's not a bad guy for an English guy,” you know. And, uh, one time-I'll tell you a little the episode that happened. We were married. We lived in a, an apartment before we built this home. And we were playing cards with my Mum and Dad. And we had neighbours that used to drink a lot, and they always came home drunk, and they made a whole bunch of noise when they came in. And we heard them because we were playing cards. Oh, my mum says, “never mind, it's only the English that are coming in, English people coming in they are always noisy,” and my husband looked at my mom, and she says, he says, “Mom. What did you say?” “Oh, my God, my darling, I'm so sorry!” But, yet, it was in the back of their minds still, English and French rivalry. <br /><br />00:38:02 --&gt; 00:38:03 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: It's it's a- <br /><br />00:38:03-00:38:04 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So it was- <br /><br />00:38:05-00:38:06 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: yeah go ahead. <br /><br />00:38:07 --&gt; 00:38:09 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Sorry. So it was <br /><br />00:38:09 --&gt; 00:38:10 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Yeah, it was- <br /><br />00:38:11 --&gt; 00:38:12 <br />Jeremy Lussier: It was what? <br /><br />00:38:13 --&gt; 00:38:26 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: It was still then a little touchy, but they came along in 1980. Everything went fine, and in the 80s everything was so much better; between French and English people. <br /><br />00:38:26 --&gt; 00:38:30 <br />Jeremy Lussier: So it was still there a little bit, but it was like getting better? <br /><br />00:38:31 --&gt; 00:38:41 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: It was getting better, and I would say, in the 70s it started to, yes. But before no, no, nobody used to date English people, nobody, or vice versa. Even when I went to a to my uh, my, my, my husband's family, same thing happened. They asked me a question, and I had a little bit of English, but you know only what you learn in school. And, uh, I was not understanding everything, and I'm sure you know, once they got to know me, they were okay, but at first I'm, I'm pretty sure they were pretty resilient. “Why, now, Lord, are you going to out with this girl? She's French. She can hardly speak English.” But it it all came through. Everything went well afterwards. <br /><br />00:39:29 --&gt; 00:39:38 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Okay, well, that's all the questions that I have. So thank you for participating in this Life on Campus interview. <br /><br />00:39:38 --&gt; 00:39:40 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: You're welcome. And good luck in your project. You can use any anything that you want. I'm willing to help you out, to do the research. <br /><br />00:39:52 --&gt; 00:39:55 <br />Jeremy Lussier: Thank you once again, and I hope you have a good evening. <br /><br />00:39:56 --&gt; 00:39:57 <br />Jeanne-Mance Sweet: Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sweet, Jeanne-Mance (interview) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023/10/24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource (m4a), 39 minutes, 57 seconds Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Language A language of the resource English Anglophone and Francophone Dating Dating Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1954 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1972-1976 University of Ottawa, 1979-1984 Degree MA BA Ethnicity English Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Career services Biographical Text Executive Director, Society of Fire Protection Engineers, 1997-2004. Executive Director, Fire Protection Research Foundation, 2004-2014 Vice President, Nation Fire Protection Association, 2014- Present. Religious Culture Other Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bates, Victoria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Almand, Kathleen Location The location of the interview Massachusetts, United States (via Microsoft Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Victoria: I'm here with Kathleen Almand and we are doing our interview with alumni from students from the 1970s here at the University of Ottawa. I'm in Ottawa ON Canada and Kathleen is in the State of Massachusetts in the United States. And I think we're just gonna get started. Ok, so the first main question, the main theme is about the impact of popular culture. Kathleen: Good. Victoria: So the main question is that culture historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture.Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we went and we went to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. So the main question is there were less electronics and Canada society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did Ottawa students do for fun? Kathleen: Ok, so I was an engineering student, right? Victoria: Right. Kathleen: So there’s kind of a whole culture around that, right? This will vary by obviously the type of students, so drinking was a big thing with engineering students, right. So I would say we spend our leisure time… Well, we didn’t have a lot of leisure time because we had a lot of homework and stuff like that. I remember going to parties but I didn’t have any money, you know. So I didn’t go out to any clubs or anything like that. You’d mentioned previous music, I did go to one concert, Grand Funk Railroad, right. So I was very interested in music. I am a musician, actually a classical musician, but I was interested in music and so I did, you know, listen to rock’n’roll and stuff like that. But, I didn’t really go out to clubs to do that, particularly we just, you know, have parties, we get together and it was just socializing with my university friends. I was living with my boyfriend until I married him in the last year of college. But he was not a college kid, so we did hang out with some of his friends as well but I would say that’s the same. That’s pretty much how we would spend our leisure time. Victoria: What instrument did you play? Or do you still play? Kathleen: Violin. Victoria: Ohh, I played the Alto Sax Kathleen: Ohh Cool. Victoria: Yeah. Did you play at school at all, or was it just something you did for fun on the side? Kathleen: No, I played, you know, in high school and then I stopped completely before I went to University and I didn’t pick it up again until I was 40. So, I’m now playing, you know, I played after that. So you’ll pick it up again if you’ve stopped. Victoria: Yeah. My music teacher always said that the one thing that people remember is always how to play an instrument in music. So I've stopped too, but hopefully when I'm done and I have more time, I'd definitely love to be myself again because it’s such a cool talent. Kathleen:Yeah, So I didn't really do, you know, I’m trying to think if I was in any clubs or anything like that at the University of that. I wasn’t, I told you in that email I sent you that my daughter was born in fourth year so I was pretty busy with that in fourth year but prior to that I don’t remember specifically being in any clubs or anything, you know. I went to parties, I went skating on the canal. I wasn’t into sports, other than, you know, skating on the canal. So I don’t know, I was kind of bored, most engineers' lives are pretty boring, so yeah. Victoria: No, no, I’m sure you were so busy with school and you wanted to dedicate yourself and do well. So it’s hard to make time for something. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. Victoria: So, umm, you said you didn’t really go out to any clubs or anything. You mostly if you had a party, it was just with your friends. Kathleen: yeah. Victoria: Do you remember what were some of the more popular hangout spots on campus? Kathleen: No, I don’t. I don’t know. I mean. When I was there. I mean, I think it was like a student thing, like a student union thing or whatever you call it. But I wasn’t really associated. The engineers were kind of off to the side over the, you know, so I don’t, I don’t really think there was a lot we interacted with. I mean there was the Byward Market, which was a big social bar, and so you know, that’s where people went, I guess if they had the money to go. Victoria: UOttawa was a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? Kathleen: Umm. Victoria: Did francophones and Anglophones enroll in the same class? I remember you told me that mostly francophone students were participating in the arts. Umm, but did you guys participate in any of the same? I know you said you didn’t do any clubs together, but were there any bilingual institutions you really remember? Kathleen: No. And you know, there was, umm, I think as I mentioned, you know, there was a reasonable number of francophone guys in my class. You know, they came from Northern Ontario and some of them came from Quebec, cause Ottawa is the most northerly university, right? So we did draw from the northern interior and some of them were francophone and not, you know, their English was very, right? so I didn’t interact with them and I don't remember any of them. I remember the French guys hanging out in one group and the English guys hanging out in another. I mean then Asian guys were definitely kind of in their own world as well, you know, but that picture I sent you, I was just looking at them. and yeah, that was kind of my group. but I don't think any of them were French Canadians, but there might have been one that I think back and was again another engineering student. so yeah, there was a little bit of like, you know, in our own little sectors there. I wouldn't say it was huge, you know, it was a pretty small class. civil engineering. there's 20 some in the class, pretty much each year 20 something people. so I don't know what class sizes are now, but that's about what it was. it was a little larger second year and then it kind of dropped off. One of the things, if you read the article I sent you, I theoretically was interested in the University of Ottawa because it was bilingual. Carelton had an engineering program which was actually better at the time. I don’t think it is now, I think Ottawa’s is better, but I was interested in any University that had a little more diversity to it. When I was 18 years old, I again, I did not know I was going into engineering when I applied to the University of Ottawa. I thought I was going to be a math student. My scholarship was from the insurance company, I thought I was gonna study actual science and so on. So I wasn’t really expecting that to be English guys or guy's full stop. You know, I didn’t know it was going to be like that. So it was all very different when I got there, but I was attracted by the sense that this was about the equal place I wanted. Victoria: You had said you had one friend who was maybe francophone. Do you know if there were any anglophones and francophones that dated each other? Or would you say that was all kind of separate as well? Kathleen: I might not be the right person to ask that question, because I was female. I tended to hang out with the older guys. There were several older guys in my class who had taken a technology degree first and then realized they weren’t making the money. So they came back to engineering, so some of them were married and had girlfriends. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: So I was looking at that picture and I know that picture was taken 20 years later, but of that group, almost all of them had girlfriends prior to coming to the University. So one of them actually did have a francophone girlfriend, one of the guys was from Timmons, way way up north. But again it was a very male environment. It’s like this social event mentioned, there was a Friday night, TGIF in the University Hall. But I and the nurses were allowed to come to that because they were in the building, but there weren't any other women or young women from the University coming to that event, it was kind of segregated in a way or so. Victoria: You said you were one of two women in your program right? Kathleen: I think it’s three. I’m thinking back, so I was the only one in civil engineering in my year, but I know there was a mechanical engineer woman and there was a chemical engineer woman. So then the other one was electrical. There were only four, there may be more now there’s probably environmental stuff too, but then there was only the four. We only shared a few classes in second year, but you know the more specialized you go into the discipline. Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: So I, and actually the mechanical engineer woman, was a francophone. Now that I remember you mentioning that, we were kind of connected because we were the only women, the chemical engineer was anglophone. We didn’t actually socialize at all. We didn’t, we just had our own things going on and stuff. I think there was a sense of connection there because we were the only women. This was also at a time which is interesting, and I think culturally interesting. I've noticed this because I've done a lot of mentoring of women engineers, you know, In my world life, we were more interested in pretending we weren’t women. I don’t mean by trying to look like a man, but that we’re not women engineers, we’re engineers, right? Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: And so we didn’t, we deliberately didn’t hang out with other women. We were trying to say we were just like everybody else, treat us like everybody else on that stuff. And id that really has, in my view, has changed a great deal in these 50 years. Since I was at school where the women engineers that I, the young women engineers that I have mentored at my office, they want to be together. They want to walk together. They want to share their issues and problems. They want to be identified as a woman engineer who has special needs. The special needs like, you know, we have families. We have to take care of each other and things like that in my day were absolutely not different. Don’t treat us differently. Treat us as equals. We were looking for equality, not unequal. So it’s interesting, you know how far things have changed in that regard, because now it is unequal, but it's unequal positively. In other words, sort of special treatment in some cases, right, which we weren’t, we were determined that we didn’t need any special anything because we were africa that it would just marginalize us, so to speak. Victoria: I forgot to ask, but which years did you attend the University? Kathleen: 1972 and then my graduation, I think I graduated spring of 77’. I am an undergraduate. I would have graduated 76’ but I was pregnant, had to wait and take another course or two and finish. I did my masters part time because I had a child and I was working, so I was a single mother and getting my masters and all this stuff. Victoria: How? Kathleen: I think it took me between two and three years. You can see in my transcript or I can look at it after and see, so I think I would have graduated close to 1980 by the time I was through the Master's or maybe even a little bit beyond that. Victoria: Ok, perfect. Thank you. I meant to ask you that at the beginning, but it totally slipped my mind. We talked about parties, what it was like there. But we kind of use the term ‘Party Culture’, like in Ontario there’s like a different party school where they have a bit more of a culture around street parties and house parties. Did that really exist in Ottawa or since it was a bigger city you kind of had the bars instead? Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: So you didn’t really have a party culture on campus? Kathleen: Yeah, well, I didn’t live on campus. I think that the folks who did would know more about that. I know there were fraternities, I don’t know if there were sororities. I don’t know anything about all that kind of stuff. And I think there were like in any place, even if it is a big city, there are houses around the University and students like there. They rent places and stuff, whether those parties spilled out onto the street, I have no idea because I wasn’t a part of it, I lived in the West End. Victoria: The Vietnam War was taking place around the same time you were attending University. Do you remember what the student body’s general opinion was about it, or if people just carried on with their regular studies. Kathleen: I don’t remember any conversations about the Vietnam War when I was at school. I think the one thing I noticed when I got my first job, when I went out to work and there were a couple of Draft Dodgers working there, were American architects and engineers. One was an architect and one was an engineer and you know, so they were very anti-Vietnam War obviously. So I guess if I had to make a wild guess, we would have been anti Vietnam War because of sympathy for the students. But again I think that there was very little conversation about politics. I mean engineers are really boring people. Victoria:Do you remember any protests taking place at school or not? Kathleen: Nothing. Victoria: All right, ok. This is a fun one, I think. Ok, rock’n’roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see rock’n’roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? Kathleen: So my parents were very old. My mother was 45 when I was born, so they really had [shrug]. I wasn’t living at home when I was at university. I was living with my boyfriend. And they never placed their views on me in any way, so I don’t even know what their views were. And obviously, they’re both dead on that issue. My connection to rock’n’roll culture, so to speak. It was really in high school, in high school the musicians that played in the orchestra, they also had a garage band, right? So I would go and head them in the garage band. There were also a lot of drugs in my high school, so that was kind of a Nepean high school and another school nearby and so there was a drug culture that also existed in musicians. More broadly than that, the 60s culture piece, I think had more actually at the end of my high school years then I did at university because they were all these hard working engineer conservative boys. I'm sure that there was some of that kind of stuff at the university, but I was not really exposed to it through my university experience. My boyfriend, who was a naughty university student. He hung out with some of the drug culture stuff a little bit. So I got a little bit of exposure to it, but again that was probably more at the end of high school than it was at university. Victoria: Alright ok. So we’re kind of onto the second theme, which is about the female experience and obviously being in a program dominated by men. You probably have a bit to say. Ok, so culture historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? Kathleen: I might have been a little early, but what happened to me when I was at high school considering what to go to university about. Nobody ever mentioned engineering as a possible career. I had no idea. I never thought that I heard of it, but basically I hadn’t heard of it. I didn’t know any engineers and most women find their pathway into engineers by a father or some relative. You know, kind of so my point was mathematics, and I chose that because I am opposed to the arts, which I also enjoy. I chose math and sciences because I wanted to get a job. So I did that and then when I went to first year, which was this combined science and engineering program in the first year, I had to take an elective and I didn’t want to take biology or something. So I just took this thing called introduction to engineering because I just thought it was a little bit more mathematically oriented and it was perfect for me because my focus of interest was in the kinds of math that support engineering like calculus. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: Basically that was my specialty. So I went from thinking I was going to be a mathematician or something, whatever that means to, oh, I guess I could possibly be an engineer. So it was really the coursework that introduced me to it, not an individual or anybody, and certainly not by looking around at the other people in engineering because they were all male. So for whatever reason, the fact that they were male, everybody was male, didn’t bother me. So I kind of just went into it blindly. I don’t remember going in consciously thinking that I’m breaking down the barriers to female entry and you know nothing like that. I was just like, ok, I think this is the right career for me because based on my sense of abilities, my academic abilities. My memory is I don’t remember having been treated differently, badly, specially, anything like that. I don’t and actually not even by the other students. I again, tended to hang out with the ones that were familiar with women, the ones who were married. Although I wasn’t older, I was a regular age of a regular person who’s gone through high school and university. Several of these guys had been working for a few years so I felt comfortable there. I obviously noticed that I was the only woman. You know what was astonishing for me is that it never occurred to me that this could be a career. And so, that’s something I've done in my life is to go and make presentations to high schools and girl scout groups and stuff. So that they are aware when they see a woman making a presentation in engineering that they can self identity, maybe think ‘i could do that’. You know, if they’re a woman, right? So, the university experience for women, I’m trying to remember, was a very long time ago. Victoria: Okay. Kathleen: I’m trying to think if there were things I felt excluded from, but there weren't. You know that one experience, this is relevant I think. So in civil engineering there is a three week period. I don’t think it’s three weeks anymore. We had to take three weeks out of the summer between second and third year to go to survey camp. What was called the university at the time, and I think they still do own property up in the Gatineau Hills fairly far up. That had been a retreat for the fathers who had organically run the university, the Catholic Fathers or something. So it was a bunch of cabins on a lake, and you could probably find out about this. I don’t remember the name of the lake, It’ll come to me in a couple of days. But we had to go up there and this was hard because we had to earn money in the summer to pay for university. Some of the guys in particular and we had to take three weeks out of that, no job right to go to the service camp. And so we learned, I believe it was two weeks of learning the techniques of surveying because a lot of civil engineers say it’s an application of civil engineering and so one. Even though you wouldn’t do surveying as an engineer, you had to understand it and use the data from it and so one. And then one week was other things like testing waste and practical hands-on things. So I'm going to this survey camp with 25 guys right now. They all knew I had a boyfriend. All this kind of stuff, but I mean, you know, culture that was a little interesting. That's all. Victoria: The only woman were you? Kathleen: Pardon me? Victoria: The only woman? Kathleen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Victoria: Yeah, Ok. Kathleen: So it was just our class at that time and they had put the guys in cabins that sleep 4 or something. And I had my own cabin. We would party in the evenings and things like that. But I never had a bad experience from any of the guys or from the professors or anything like that. So I look back on that, I mean, I was completely naive. You know, 22 years old, but you know, so I was separate, but I was together. I mean, they gave me a separate place to sleep, but I was included. I had to do everything that they all had to do, etcetera, and I was as strong as some of them. Some of them were not obviously, so that was an interesting thing there. Victoria: Well, what an experience I can, I can’t imagine. And then did you have to pay tuition or like, did you have to pay to go to that retreat or was it all included? Kathleen: No, I don’t think so. I think it was part of the tuition, you know, for the year and it was. I think that's right, I can’t really remember. I'm sure you know because the biggest financial penalty was not being able to work for three weeks in the summer. So, and I think what I heard later is that they shortened it because of that issue about losing revenue for the students. They may still have that. I don't really know, but it was…it was a really good experience and I really got to know my classmates really well and all that stuff. So despite the fact they were boys, right? Yeah, so to speak. Victoria: And then you were telling me on the phone yesterday about the nursing students and how they joined you in like the engineering buildings. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. Victoria: Can you just tell me…can you just kind of repeat what you said yesterday about that? Kathleen: Sure, I will. And you know I told you that there was an engineering building which is way down the end of campus and of course that the newer engineering building I think is further down the end of campus . But science? The science faculty was around, somewhat nearby the engineering building was the furthest one down the end, and I believe it was during the time I was there. Or maybe it was before I got there. The nursing faculty moved into the building and our thinking and maybe I made this up or maybe someone actually told me this, but the lore amongst the engineering guys was that they moved the nursing students in there so that there would be women and men in the building and there would be some, you know, so the engineers wasn’t a totally male environment, there would be engineers around there and invited me to this TGIF event every Friday, and you know, we’d see them in the hallways and things like that. So whether that was a deliberate move on the part of the university, I suspect it might have been or it could have just been coincidental. “There’s some space in engineering to stick the nurses in there”, but it's a bit odd, when you think about..you think they just stick more chemistry classes or something there, you know? So because the engineer building was full of laboratories or engineers and stuff like that. So it's an interesting bit of history of the university to find out if that was a deliberate thing or not. Victoria: Did having more women in the building make you feel like it was a more inclusive environment, or did it almost make you kind of like, look at it a little, weirdly and like, ohhh, you know, this is why they put them here? Kathleen: Yeah, I would say the latter. I didn’t have anything to do with them. I mean, I didn't share any classes with them. So I didn't get to know any of them at all. I mean I really identify with my classroom right? So we were a little world unto ourselves. Victoria: Yeah, you had your own little community and it almost, yeah. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: The next section is about ideology and generational differences. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parent's generation. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: I feel like that happens with every new group, to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? Kathleen: I think there was certainly and from my perspective for me personally, there was some rebellion, right? I mean obviously right, I moved out at 18 with my boyfriend. A terrible thing to do you know, for old parents and all this kind of jazz. So I was on the fringes of the drug culture and all that stuff, but that was a personal thing. I didn’t mobilize to change the world. It was just kind of rejecting the value system of my parents. That’s not the same as working for a better world at all, and that was absent from my college experience. And I'm sure that's not true at all in the arts faculty. But the engineers just had their heads down, basically, so I mean, and I've become much more aware of that kind of thing as I've gotten older, obviously. But yeah, sorry. Victoria: No. Don't apologize. Did you feel discouraged from your parents for going forward with a career in STEM or like from councilors at school or anything like that? Kathleen: Yeah. Well, the fact is that the counselors in school never mentioned the possibility to me, you know, like think about it. I mean, it's pretty terrible, I mean they did encourage me not to go for a technology degree. I was so focused on getting a job I thought, I’d get a technology degree. It's only three years and they said you shouldn’t do that. You have the academic ability to, so they did that. There wasn’t any discouraging me to not get a degree, but there was never, there was literally never a mention of engineering. And from my mother, I wrote a little story about this at one time when I made the decision to go into engineering, when I was introduced to engineering at the end of the first year and decided that was going to be my major; civil engineering. My mother said to me, why would you want to do that, Cath? It was like she just, you know, I mean, I remember those words, and yet they, you know, they were obviously proud of me. You saw that thing, the scholarship but she didn't know any women who were engineers. And she, I don't think they sent me to the university to get married. They didn't do that, but she couldn't understand why I would want to study for a career that, in her mind, is not a career for women. I didn’t falter in any way. It's just she had no exposure to women and I had no exposure to women engineers. So I think back on that and I think you know why wasn’t I scared? Or why didn't I like questioning myself or anything. But i didn't do a lot of questions in those days and It truly was that I actually, when I was in first year and i was taking all these math course and I remember I even went into…I think i tried out a math club or something and it was so nerdy and the professors were so esoteric and I thought ‘could I really do this?’ You know my whole life, and I was at a time in my life at university where the real world is more real and I got the sense that the concept of applied mathematics which is what engineering is and it's also applied science. Applying it to solving problems and things like that. You know that’s what really resonated with me but that message wasn’t delivered to me and I suspect it was more delivered to men. But it was more also that they had models, I mean I've read this a few times that if you ever see a woman who’s an engineer it doesn't occur to you that you can be one. If you can see them physically or you know hear them talk or if they’re a professor or something. There are no female professors that I remember, I don't think so. It never occurs to you that you could actually do this, so that's why and I think that's why this accelerated fairly quickly, you know where once there's one woman then there's another and another and then you know now many programs. I don't know what the statistics are at Ottawa but for instance environmental engineering probably has more than 50% women right, so just getting back to your concept of wanting to make a difference in the world. I think some of you know, I know it doesn’t sound like a cause, it's not protesting and stuff but it's making a difference in the environment. You know careers that attract women–women in general often have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Maybe I'm making too broad a statement there but engineering is a way to change. Victoria: That was amazing. Thank you. Ok. Looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? So maybe not on campus, but just was there anything you remember when you were in the school that you were just like, oh, this is completely wrong. Kathleen: Yeah, so I remember the very first time I met a black person was at university. I had never met, I probably saw one on the street or something but Ottawa at that time, unlike now, I believe was a very white place. And I also had friends in highschool and I was aware of the bigotry towards French Canadians. I was aware that some people had those people. I'd had a girlfriend who would say some things to–a high school friend– you know, say something to me. My father was very ‘don't behave like that’. I mean he was really a guy with ideals. So in terms of that kind of stuff, basic stuff. So, I do believe there was a bigotry towards French Canafians and I met that in my work just after I got out of university. Yeah, so that and I and that was not a good thing in Canadian society. I don’t know if that still exists anymore. My daughter lives in Ottawa now. I never talked to her about such a thing, but so that was not a good thing. And that depended on what level you’re working at and lower level kind of folks, there was more of that. I mean, there was this intellectual Pierre Trudeau was around at that time. So he was like, everybody was in love with him and stuff like that. So that was different. But that was not a good thing. I think, but in terms of what I was aware of, that was not good about Canadian society. I guess and for me, this has become a kind of big issue. I don't mean just the French Canadian side of it, but I didn't grow up in a multicultural environment at all. Is it like a British environment, basically right? And I think that was not a good thing. You know, now I know Canada's kind of gone one way and then the other way. I mean so welcoming to immigrants, which is just a wonderful thing. I think that kind of issue has been addressed, but i'm trying to think of some other things i remember being thinking that i lived in a better country than the united states. I really did feel that way. I was proud, not the flag waving proud. I did feel that way, I mean, I probably still feel that way to a certain extent. It's changed somewhat obviously. I live here now, (Massacusets) so yeah. I know that's not a very deep answer, but that's the one thing I can think of. I again, i didn't know the world. I'd never been outside the country. The only country I ever compared us to was Britain or the US. Victoria: Just as an add-on, did you feel that the political system at the time was like democratic, fair and responsive to citizens' needs? If you can remember. Kathleen: Yeah, I think so. My father was a kind of an armchair socialist. You know I don't know that term, but he did talk about politics, but he wasn't angry about it. I think my knowledge of politics really came from just listening to my father. I wasn't involved and engaged. I didn't sense that we lived in a bad place and I was happy to–you know, I thought things were good. I really did. Victoria: no, that's good. It always is, I don't know. I feel kind of the same way now. I feel good in Canada, but I'm in political science and the more I learn about politics and the more I learn about the past, obviously it's always changing, but I always still feel kind of–I feel good. Kathleen Yeah, it's a well respected country, pretty much, we could, Canada could contribute more to, you know, defense and things like that. That's the one area where they are not quite doing their share. But I mean it in lots of ways. I hear my daughter. I hear my daughters are very interested in politics. So she kind of, I think she's, you know, just the difference, I mean to me the difference between liberals and the conservative in Canada is so small, you know that. The other thing is it's almost really like a one, one party country, but it's all good. And you know all the social benefits, I think the standard of living. I left when I was thirty, and would be in the same position if I’d stayed? I don't really know. I think I felt it was a small pond, that was part of the reason for leaving. Not entirely, I mean I married an American. You know what? I think about it, it was a small pond and the opportunity, you know, big fish in a small pond. I wasn't a big fish when I left, but I think I definitely had more opportunities here. But I mean, that's just the nature of the country, the size of the country and the number of people and the number of business opportunities and things like that, right. And I think by becoming so much more global, so much more welcoming, so many people from so many other countries, you’ve kind of brought in bits and pieces of other ponds, you know, so, so that's great. Victoria: Ok, sorry, let me see here. Ok, so this next part is kind of about the free love movement. Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology, changed gender relations and the dating practices of the early 1970s. Would you agree with that statement and what did dating look like back in, like back at UOttawa? Kathleen: Yeah, I'm sure it did. I know it was right at the cusp of that obviously. I don't know how you know, I don't know what it was like 5 years before, cause I, I mean sex was everywhere. So there’s a lot of sex around, lots of sex and drugs and rock’n’roll, yeah. Victoria: I like that, ‘sex and drugs and rock’n’roll. So how did your generation look at family and marriage? You kind of mentioned that you had a but some of you classmates were older and they were already kind of married and settled. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: Was that kind of like, you finished school and you got married or what? What's your opinion on that? Kathleen: I don't think there was an automatic assumption that's gonna happen. I think that was changin when I was at university and again, you know, engineers are conservative people generally. So they would be on that end of the spectrum. I did know lots of people that were living with people, that kind of thing and obviously birth control helped with all of that. I think you know that we were open to different ways of and to have multiple partners too to a certain extent. I mean my situation was different obviously. I mean, in a way, it was. In a way, it wasn't. I did meet this guy when I was in highscool and went to live with him, but then I got pregnant and I got married. So I don't know, perhaps today I would have. I don't know, but I'm not sure it was, but it's probably the right thing to do. So no, I think we were, that is something that you know we weren't behind the times necessarily in, in canada. Victoria: Ok, yeah. No, that makes perfect sense, thank you. Ok, we're nearing the end. This is the last little section. This is just a disclaimer that this last part is about sexuality and harassment. It's totally optional. It's up to you if you want. I can read the questions and then you can kind of decide if you want to respond. So the first question is that many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? Kathleen: They didn't, as far as i know Victoria: Like today on campus, this is an example. We have these little buttons, like the emergency little silos maybe every block or so and if you've pressed the button, a big alarm goes off and you know, people will come to your locations. It's if you were being followed or felt unsafe on campus or we have a walk home program. Kathleen. No. Victoria: So you can go to the university center and you can get a buddy. And we also have I think it's a voluntary thing, but thetre;s also student kinds of paramedics, I'll say that loosely, on campus that will monitor areas during big homecoming nights or parties on the weekend. Did anything like that exist while you were there? Kathleen: I don’t think so. No, I wasn't aware of it. Again, if i'd lived near the university or on campus. I wasn't involved in the nightlife on campus at all. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: I don’t think I was even anywhere at night, or evening. But certainly not in any of the social events that, I guess no, not that I was aware of Victoria: Ohh. Kathleen: It's only maybe that I just wasn't aware of it. Victoria: The next question we kind of talked about already but just about premarital sex, but I was wondering what the perception of that was like on campus. Was it viewed negatively, accepted or even encouraged at all? Kathleen: I don’t think there was any way to encourage it, but it certainly was accepted/ you know, it was totally common, totally common. Victoria: Perfect, and then this is the last one. It just says did members of your parents generation worry about premarital sex? Kathleen: Uh, well. There's no one answer to that, right? I don't know if the word worries me. I think they were, certainly i think my parents were aware, obviously even before i went off to live with my boyfriend, that there was premarital sex going on. But I don't, I mean the pills and things that I took away that I don't remember my mother, you know, she knew nothing about any of this. We never talked about it. Whatever. Maybe the word worry is referring to what might happen in terms of having babies and things like that, I'm sure they were worrying. Everybody would worry about a baby being born, you know, an unwanted baby being born. But again my parents' generations were probably two generations. My mother wasn’t 20 when she had me. She was 45. So she was just kind of like, I don't understand this new generation, she really left me on my own because of that. I don't mean that negatively. Victoria: No, I kind of feel the same way, like my mother, not to throw her under the bus here, but she’s 62 now, and she's kind of the same way. I don’t know how to explain it, but just having older parents i find that some of my other friends, their parents are in their early 40s and i’m like oh my. Kathleen: Yeah, they’re much more interfering Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah, I found that too. That the other parents they’re trying to be your friend, they want you to talk to them all the time. And my mother’s like, I don't understand this stuff. Victoria: Yeah, my mother’s a baby boomer and she won’t call me, like I have to call her. Which isn't a problem but It's definitely different having an older generation of parents. Kathleen: And I think it's a positive thing Victoria. I think you’ll look back and you’ll realize that the independence that you have right now is some of that comes from your mom. It's her basically saying, in a way, it's a way of its a vote of confidence. You're probably better able to make some of these decisions than he is able to make them for you. It's a good thing. Victoria: So that kind of concludes the interview questions that were provided for me. I did have a question of my own, if you don’t mind? Kathleen: Good. Victoria: I was just wondering about technology on campus. What was required of you as a student, what were you supposed to have and what technology were they using in the classroom? Kathleen: Yeah. So there was a transition going on. I mean, there’s questions and technology all along, right. We punched computer cards. You may not even know what that is. You know, in other words, we had like mainframe computers and you learned to punch cards to feed them into your program. I mean, it was really ancient stuff. But we also had slide rules. Engineers have slide rules and were taught that I think in 3rd or 4th year. We started to get calculators that add, subtract, multiply and divide. That was it, right. That was the extent of the technology. There were no phones, no smartphones, nothing like that. So it's kind of interesting actually. And we had to provide our own slide rule, they were not very expensive and similarly the calculators. I don’t think they were very expensive today, they’re nothing right? A dollar or something, but they weren't nearly as expensive or capable. I don't really remember money being a barrier. I mean obviously I got that scholarship right. But I think my parents would have, even though they were fairly low income, my father worked in the mail room at the insurance company. And my mother was a secretary for the government. So we were not a high income family, but I think they would have been able to support my tuition and so on. You know, so that was another good thing about Canada by the way, and Canadian culture to me. I noticed a big difference in the US and the quality of access to higher quality education, it's much more universal in Canada than in the US. To me, that’s been really, I didn’t send but I strongly encouraged my daughter to go back up to Canada to university because I know she’d get, for a good price and more universal school population. So it’s not only the rich kids, but she's not following in my footsteps. She's sending her kids to private school, that's up to her. Victoria: Ok, that's awesome. I think that's everything. Thank you so so much. Kathleen: Ok, good. Transcription Translation Victoria : Je suis ici avec Kathleen Almand et nous réalisons notre interview avec d'anciens étudiants des années 1970 ici à l'Université d'Ottawa. Je suis à Ottawa, au Canada, et Kathleen se trouve dans l'État du Massachusetts, aux États-Unis. Je pense que nous allons commencer. Ok, donc la première question principale, le thème principal, c'est l'impact de la culture populaire. Kathleen : Bien. Victoria : Donc la question principale c'est que les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée.Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous sommes allés et nous sommes allés pour mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés ensemble. La question principale est donc qu'il y avait moins d'électronique et de société canadienne dans les années 1970. Comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser ? Kathleen : D'accord, j'étais étudiante en ingénierie, n'est-ce pas ? Victoria : Oui, c'est vrai. Kathleen : Il y a donc toute une culture autour de cela, n'est-ce pas ? Cela varie évidemment selon le type d'étudiants, mais l'alcool était très présent chez les étudiants en ingénierie, n'est-ce pas ? Je dirais que nous passions notre temps libre... En fait, nous n'avions pas beaucoup de temps libre parce que nous avions beaucoup de devoirs à faire et d'autres choses du même genre. Je me souviens que j'allais à des fêtes, mais je n'avais pas d'argent. Je ne suis donc pas sorti en boîte de nuit, ni rien d'autre. Vous avez parlé de musique, j'ai assisté à un concert de Grand Funk Railroad, c'est vrai. J'étais donc très intéressé par la musique. Je suis musicien, en fait un musicien classique, mais je m'intéressais à la musique et j'écoutais du rock'n'roll et d'autres choses de ce genre. Mais je ne sortais pas vraiment en boîte de nuit pour cela, nous organisions simplement des fêtes, nous nous réunissions, et c'était juste pour socialiser avec mes amis de l'université. Je vivais avec mon petit ami jusqu'à ce que je l'épouse au cours de la dernière année d'université. Mais il n'était pas un étudiant, alors nous sortions aussi avec certains de ses amis, mais je dirais que c'est la même chose. C'est à peu près comme ça que nous passions notre temps libre. Victoria : De quel instrument jouiez-vous ? Ou en joues-tu encore ? Kathleen : Du violon. Victoria : Ohh, je jouais de l'Alto Sax Kathleen : Ohh Cool. Victoria : Oui. Est-ce que tu jouais à l'école, ou est-ce que c'était juste quelque chose que tu faisais pour t'amuser à côté ? Kathleen : Non, j'ai joué, tu sais, au lycée et puis j'ai arrêté complètement avant d'aller à l'université et je n'ai pas repris avant l'âge de 40 ans. Donc, je joue maintenant, vous savez, j'ai joué après ça. Donc vous reprenez si vous avez arrêté. Victoria : Oui. Mon professeur de musique disait toujours que la seule chose dont les gens se souviennent, c'est toujours comment jouer d'un instrument de musique. J'ai donc arrêté moi aussi, mais j'espère que lorsque j'aurai terminé et que j'aurai plus de temps, j'aimerais vraiment redevenir moi-même parce que c'est un talent tellement cool. Kathleen : Oui, je n'ai pas vraiment fait, tu sais, j'essaie de me rappeler si j'étais dans un club ou quelque chose comme ça à l'université. Je ne l'étais pas, je vous ai dit dans le courriel que je vous ai envoyé que ma fille est née en quatrième année, alors j'étais assez occupée avec ça en quatrième année, mais avant ça, je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été spécifiquement dans des clubs ou quoi que ce soit, vous savez. J'allais à des fêtes, j'allais patiner sur le canal. Je ne faisais pas de sport, à part le patinage sur le canal. Alors je ne sais pas, je m'ennuyais un peu, la vie de la plupart des ingénieurs est assez ennuyeuse, alors oui. Victoria : Non, non, je suis sûre que vous étiez très occupée par l'école et que vous vouliez vous y consacrer et réussir. C'est donc difficile de trouver du temps pour quelque chose. Kathleen : Oui, oui. Victoria : Alors, tu as dit que tu ne sortais pas vraiment en boîte de nuit ou autre. Si tu faisais la fête, c'était surtout avec tes amis. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Tu te souviens des endroits les plus populaires sur le campus ? Kathleen : Non, je ne m'en souviens pas. Je ne sais pas. Je veux dire. Quand j'étais là. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était comme un truc d'étudiants, comme un truc d'union d'étudiants ou peu importe comment vous l'appelez. Mais je n'étais pas vraiment associé. Les ingénieurs étaient un peu à l'écart, vous savez, alors je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu beaucoup d'interactions. Je veux dire qu'il y avait le marché By, qui était un grand bar social, et vous savez, c'est là que les gens allaient, je suppose s'ils avaient l'argent pour y aller. Victoria : L'Université d'Ottawa était une institution bilingue, à quel point était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique dans les années 1970 ? Kathleen : Umm. Victoria : Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient dans la même classe ? Je me souviens que vous m'avez dit que la plupart des étudiants francophones participaient aux arts. Umm, mais est-ce que vous avez participé aux mêmes activités ? Je sais que vous avez dit que vous ne faisiez pas de clubs ensemble, mais y avait-il des institutions bilingues dont vous vous souvenez vraiment ? Kathleen : Non. Et vous savez, il y avait, umm, je pense que comme je l'ai mentionné, vous savez, il y avait un nombre raisonnable de gars francophones dans ma classe. Vous savez, ils venaient du nord de l'Ontario et certains d'entre eux venaient du Québec, parce qu'Ottawa est l'université la plus septentrionale, n'est-ce pas ? Certains d'entre eux étaient francophones et leur anglais n'était pas très bon, alors je n'ai pas interagi avec eux et je ne me souviens d'aucun d'entre eux. Je me souviens que les Français traînaient dans un groupe et les Anglais dans un autre. Mais je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu des Canadiens français, mais il y en avait peut-être un qui, si je me souviens bien, était un autre étudiant en ingénierie. donc oui, il y avait un peu d'ambiance, vous savez, dans nos propres secteurs. Je ne dirais pas que c'était énorme, vous savez, c'était une classe assez petite. génie civil. il y a 20 personnes dans la classe, à peu près chaque année 20 quelque chose. alors je ne sais pas quelle est la taille des classes maintenant, mais c'est à peu près ce que c'était. c'était un peu plus grand la deuxième année et ensuite ça a un peu baissé. Si vous lisez l'article que je vous ai envoyé, vous verrez que j'étais théoriquement intéressé par l'Université d'Ottawa parce qu'elle était bilingue. Carelton avait un programme d'ingénierie qui était en fait meilleur à l'époque. Je ne pense pas que ce soit le cas aujourd'hui, je pense que celui d'Ottawa est meilleur, mais j'étais intéressé par toute université qui présentait un peu plus de diversité. À l'âge de 18 ans, je ne savais pas que je me destinais à l'ingénierie lorsque j'ai posé ma candidature à l'Université d'Ottawa. Je pensais que j'allais étudier les mathématiques. Ma bourse provenait de la compagnie d'assurance, je pensais que j'allais étudier les sciences proprement dites, etc. Je ne m'attendais donc pas vraiment à ce que ce soit des Anglais ou des hommes. Je ne savais pas que ce serait comme ça. C'était donc très différent quand je suis arrivée, mais j'ai été attirée par le sentiment que c'était à peu près l'endroit égal que je voulais. Victoria : Vous avez dit que vous aviez un ami qui était peut-être francophone. Savez-vous s'il y avait des anglophones et des francophones qui sortaient ensemble ? Ou est-ce que vous diriez que c'était aussi une sorte de séparation ? Kathleen : Je ne suis peut-être pas la bonne personne pour poser cette question, parce que j'étais une femme. J'avais tendance à fréquenter les hommes plus âgés. Il y en avait plusieurs dans ma classe qui avaient commencé par un diplôme de technologie et qui s'étaient ensuite rendu compte qu'ils ne gagnaient pas assez d'argent. Certains d'entre eux étaient mariés et avaient des petites amies. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : Je regardais cette photo et je sais qu'elle a été prise 20 ans plus tard, mais dans ce groupe, presque tous avaient des petites amies avant de venir à l'université. L'un d'entre eux avait une petite amie francophone, l'un des gars venait de Timmons, tout au nord. Mais encore une fois, c'était un environnement très masculin. C'est comme cet événement social mentionné, il y avait un vendredi soir, TGIF dans le hall de l'université. Les infirmières et moi-même avions le droit d'y venir parce qu'elles étaient dans le bâtiment, mais il n'y avait pas d'autres femmes ou jeunes femmes de l'université qui venaient à cet événement, c'était une sorte de ségrégation. Victoria : Vous avez dit que vous étiez l'une des deux femmes de votre programme, n'est-ce pas ? Kathleen : Je crois que c'est trois. Je me souviens, j'étais la seule en génie civil dans ma promotion, mais je sais qu'il y avait une femme ingénieur en mécanique et une femme ingénieur en chimie. L'autre était donc électricienne. Il n'y en avait que quatre, il y en a peut-être plus maintenant, il y a probablement des choses environnementales aussi, mais il n'y en avait que quatre. Nous ne partagions que quelques cours en deuxième année, mais vous savez, plus on se spécialise dans une discipline. Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Donc moi, et en fait la femme ingénieur en mécanique, j'étais francophone. Maintenant que je me souviens que vous l'avez mentionné, nous étions en quelque sorte connectées parce que nous étions les seules femmes, l'ingénieur chimiste était anglophone. En fait, nous ne nous fréquentions pas du tout. Nous ne le faisions pas, nous avions nos propres activités. Je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment de connexion parce que nous étions les seules femmes. C'était aussi à une époque intéressante, et je pense que c'est intéressant d'un point de vue culturel. Je l'ai remarqué parce que j'ai beaucoup encadré de femmes ingénieurs, vous savez, dans mon monde, nous étions plus intéressées par le fait de prétendre que nous n'étions pas des femmes. Je ne veux pas dire en essayant de ressembler à un homme, mais que nous ne sommes pas des femmes ingénieurs, nous sommes des ingénieurs, n'est-ce pas ? Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Et donc nous n'avons pas, nous n'avons délibérément pas traîné avec d'autres femmes. On essayait de dire qu'on était comme tout le monde, qu'on nous traitait comme tout le monde dans ce domaine. Et cela a vraiment, à mon avis, beaucoup changé au cours de ces 50 dernières années. Depuis que je suis allée à l'école, les femmes ingénieurs que j'ai, les jeunes femmes ingénieurs que j'ai encadrées dans mon bureau, veulent être ensemble. Elles veulent marcher ensemble. Elles veulent partager leurs questions et leurs problèmes. Elles veulent être identifiées comme des femmes ingénieurs qui ont des besoins particuliers. Des besoins spécifiques tels que, vous savez, nous avons des familles. Nous devons prendre soin les unes des autres et ce genre de choses n'était absolument pas différent à mon époque. Ne nous traitez pas différemment. Traitez-nous comme des égaux. Nous recherchions l'égalité, pas l'inégalité. Il est donc intéressant de voir à quel point les choses ont changé à cet égard, car aujourd'hui il y a inégalité, mais une inégalité positive. En d'autres termes, il y a une sorte de traitement spécial dans certains cas, d'accord, ce qui n'était pas le cas, nous étions déterminés à ne pas avoir besoin de quelque chose de spécial parce que nous étions africains et que cela ne ferait que nous marginaliser, pour ainsi dire. Victoria : J'ai oublié de demander, mais en quelles années avez-vous fréquenté l'Université ? Kathleen : 1972 et ensuite mon diplôme, je pense que j'ai été diplômée au printemps 77. Je suis une étudiante de premier cycle. J'aurais été diplômée en 1976 mais j'étais enceinte, j'ai dû attendre et prendre un ou deux cours de plus et finir. J'ai fait mon master à temps partiel parce que j'avais un enfant et que je travaillais, alors j'étais une mère célibataire et je faisais mon master et tout ça. Victoria : Comment ? Kathleen : Je pense que cela m'a pris entre deux et trois ans. Vous pouvez le voir dans mon relevé de notes ou je peux le regarder après et voir, donc je pense que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme vers 1980 lorsque j'ai terminé ma maîtrise ou peut-être même un peu plus tard. Victoria : D'accord, parfait. Je vous remercie. Je voulais vous poser cette question au début, mais elle m'est totalement sortie de l'esprit. Nous avons parlé des fêtes, de ce que c'était. Mais nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête ", alors qu'en Ontario, il existe une école de la fête différente, où la culture est plus axée sur les fêtes de rue et les fêtes à domicile. Est-ce que ça existait vraiment à Ottawa ou comme c'était une plus grande ville, il y avait plutôt des bars ? Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Vous n'aviez donc pas vraiment de culture de la fête sur le campus ? Kathleen : Oui, eh bien, je ne vivais pas sur le campus. Je pense que les gens qui ont vécu sur le campus en savent plus à ce sujet. Je sais qu'il y avait des fraternités, je ne sais pas s'il y avait des sororités. Je ne sais rien de ce genre de choses. Et je pense qu'il y avait comme partout, même dans une grande ville, des maisons autour de l'université et des étudiants qui s'y plaisent. Ils louent des locaux et d'autres choses, et si ces fêtes débordaient dans la rue, je n'en ai aucune idée parce que je n'en faisais pas partie, je vivais dans le West End. Victoria : La guerre du Viêt Nam se déroulait à peu près au même moment où vous alliez à l'université. Te souviens-tu de l'opinion générale des étudiants à ce sujet, ou si les gens continuaient simplement leurs études ? Kathleen : Je ne me souviens d'aucune conversation sur la guerre du Viêt Nam lorsque j'étais à l'école. Je pense que la seule chose que j'ai remarquée lorsque j'ai obtenu mon premier emploi, lorsque je suis allée travailler et qu'il y avait deux Draft Dodgers qui travaillaient là, c'était des architectes et des ingénieurs américains. L'un était architecte et l'autre ingénieur, et ils étaient évidemment très opposés à la guerre du Vietnam. Donc, si je devais faire une supposition, nous aurions été contre la guerre du Vietnam par sympathie pour les étudiants. Mais encore une fois, je pense qu'il y avait très peu de conversations sur la politique. Je veux dire que les ingénieurs sont des gens vraiment ennuyeux. Victoria:Vous souvenez-vous de manifestations à l'école ou non ? Kathleen : Rien. Victoria : Très bien, ok. C'est une question amusante, je pense. Dans les années 1960, les artistes du rock'n'roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme une simple forme de musique populaire ? Kathleen : Mes parents étaient très âgés. Ma mère avait 45 ans quand je suis née, alors ils avaient vraiment [haussement d'épaules]. Je ne vivais pas à la maison quand j'étais à l'université. Je vivais avec mon petit ami. Et ils ne m'ont jamais imposé leur point de vue, de quelque manière que ce soit, alors je ne sais même pas ce qu'ils pensaient. Et de toute évidence, ils sont tous les deux morts sur cette question. Mon lien avec la culture rock'n'roll, pour ainsi dire. C'était vraiment au lycée, au lycée les musiciens qui jouaient dans l'orchestre avaient aussi un groupe de garage, n'est-ce pas ? J'allais donc les écouter dans le groupe de garage. Il y avait aussi beaucoup de drogues dans mon lycée, qui était en quelque sorte un lycée de Nepean et une autre école à proximité, et il y avait donc une culture de la drogue qui existait aussi chez les musiciens. De manière plus générale, la culture des années 60, je pense qu'elle était plus présente à la fin de mes années de lycée qu'à l'université, parce qu'il s'agissait de garçons conservateurs, ingénieurs, qui travaillaient dur. Je suis sûre qu'il y avait un peu de ce genre de choses à l'université, mais je n'y ai pas vraiment été exposée dans le cadre de mon expérience universitaire. Mon petit ami, qui était un vilain étudiant, traînait avec certains toxicomanes. Il traînait un peu avec la culture de la drogue. J'y ai donc été un peu exposée, mais encore une fois, c'était probablement plus à la fin du lycée qu'à l'université. Victoria : D'accord, d'accord. Nous en sommes donc au deuxième thème, qui concerne l'expérience féminine et le fait d'être dans un programme dominé par les hommes. Vous avez probablement des choses à dire. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? Kathleen : J'étais peut-être un peu en avance, mais ce qui m'est arrivé lorsque j'étais au lycée, c'est que je me demandais ce que j'allais faire à l'université. Personne n'a jamais mentionné l'ingénierie comme une carrière possible. Je n'en avais aucune idée. Je n'ai jamais pensé que j'en avais entendu parler, mais en fait, je n'en avais jamais entendu parler. Je ne connaissais aucun ingénieur et la plupart des femmes trouvent leur voie vers l'ingénierie par l'intermédiaire d'un père ou d'un parent. J'ai donc choisi les mathématiques parce que je suis opposée aux arts, que j'apprécie également. J'ai choisi les mathématiques et les sciences parce que je voulais trouver un emploi. C'est ce que j'ai fait et quand je suis passé en première année, qui était un programme combiné de sciences et d'ingénierie, j'ai dû prendre un cours facultatif et je ne voulais pas prendre de biologie ou quelque chose comme ça. J'ai donc pris ce cours d'introduction à l'ingénierie parce que je pensais que c'était un peu plus orienté vers les mathématiques et c'était parfait pour moi parce que je m'intéressais surtout au type de mathématiques qui soutiennent l'ingénierie, comme le calcul. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : En fait, c'était ma spécialité. Je suis donc passée de l'idée que j'allais devenir mathématicienne ou quelque chose du genre, peu importe ce que cela signifie, à celle que je pourrais peut-être devenir ingénieure. C'est donc le programme de cours qui m'a fait découvrir ce métier, et non une personne ou quelqu'un d'autre, et certainement pas en regardant autour de moi les autres ingénieurs, car ils étaient tous de sexe masculin. Pour une raison quelconque, le fait qu'ils soient des hommes, que tout le monde soit des hommes, ne m'a pas dérangé. Je me suis donc lancé à l'aveuglette. Je ne me souviens pas d'y être allée en pensant consciemment que je faisais tomber les barrières à l'entrée des femmes et que je ne faisais rien de tel. Je me disais simplement, ok, je pense que c'est la bonne carrière pour moi parce que c'est basé sur mon sens des capacités, mes capacités académiques. Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été traitée différemment, mal, spécialement, ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. Je ne me souviens pas, et en fait pas même par les autres étudiants. Encore une fois, j'avais tendance à fréquenter ceux qui connaissaient bien les femmes, ceux qui étaient mariés. Même si je n'étais pas plus âgé, j'avais l'âge normal d'une personne normale qui est passée par le lycée et l'université. Plusieurs d'entre eux travaillaient depuis quelques années et je me suis donc sentie à l'aise. J'ai évidemment remarqué que j'étais la seule femme. Ce qui m'a étonnée, c'est qu'il ne m'était jamais venu à l'esprit qu'il pouvait s'agir d'une carrière. C'est donc une chose que j'ai faite dans ma vie : je suis allée faire des présentations dans des lycées, des groupes de scouts, etc. Ainsi, lorsqu'elles voient une femme faire une présentation dans le domaine de l'ingénierie, elles peuvent s'identifier et se dire qu'elles pourraient faire cela. Vous savez, s'ils sont une femme, n'est-ce pas ? J'essaie de me rappeler que l'expérience universitaire des femmes remonte à très longtemps. Victoria : D'accord. Kathleen : J'essaie de me demander s'il y a des choses dont je me suis sentie exclue, mais ce n'est pas le cas. Vous savez, une expérience, c'est pertinent je pense. En génie civil, il y a une période de trois semaines. Je ne pense pas que ce soit encore trois semaines. Nous devions prendre trois semaines pendant l'été, entre la deuxième et la troisième année, pour aller dans un camp de géomètres. Ce qu'on appelait l'université à l'époque, et je crois qu'elle possède toujours une propriété dans les collines de la Gatineau, assez loin. C'était une retraite pour les pères qui dirigeaient l'université, les pères catholiques ou quelque chose comme ça. Il s'agissait donc d'un ensemble de cabanes au bord d'un lac, et vous pourriez probablement vous renseigner à ce sujet. Je ne me souviens pas du nom du lac, cela me reviendra dans quelques jours. Mais nous devions aller là-bas et c'était difficile parce que nous devions gagner de l'argent pendant l'été pour payer l'université. Certains d'entre nous, en particulier, ont dû prendre trois semaines de congé, sans travail, pour aller au camp de service. Nous avons donc appris, pendant deux semaines je crois, les techniques d'arpentage, car beaucoup d'ingénieurs civils disent qu'il s'agit d'une application du génie civil, etc. Même si l'on ne fait pas de levés en tant qu'ingénieur, il faut les comprendre et utiliser les données qu'ils fournissent, etc. Et puis une semaine était consacrée à d'autres choses, comme l'analyse des déchets et des travaux pratiques. Je vais donc à ce camp de géomètres avec 25 gars. Ils savaient tous que j'avais un petit ami. Ce genre de choses, mais je veux dire, vous savez, la culture c'était un peu intéressant. C'est tout. Victoria : La seule femme, c'était toi ? Kathleen : Pardon ? Victoria : La seule femme ? Kathleen : Oui, oui, oui. Victoria : Oui, d'accord. Kathleen : Il n'y avait que notre classe à ce moment-là et ils avaient mis les gars dans des cabines qui pouvaient accueillir 4 personnes ou quelque chose comme ça. Et j'avais ma propre cabine. On faisait la fête le soir et des choses comme ça. Mais je n'ai jamais eu de mauvaises expériences avec aucun des étudiants, ni avec les professeurs, ni avec quoi que ce soit d'autre. Avec le recul, je me dis que j'étais complètement naïve. Vous savez, j'avais 22 ans, mais vous savez, j'étais séparée, mais j'étais ensemble. Je veux dire qu'ils m'ont donné un endroit séparé pour dormir, mais j'étais incluse. Je devais faire tout ce qu'ils devaient faire, etc. et j'étais aussi forte que certains d'entre eux. Certains d'entre eux ne l'étaient pas, c'est pourquoi c'était intéressant. Victoria : Eh bien, quelle expérience, je ne peux pas l'imaginer. Et puis est-ce que tu as dû payer des frais de scolarité, ou est-ce que tu as dû payer pour aller à cette retraite, ou est-ce que c'était tout compris ? Kathleen : Non, je ne pense pas. Je pense que ça faisait partie des frais de scolarité, vous savez, pour l'année et c'était. Je pense que c'est vrai, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Je suis sûr que vous le savez parce que la plus grande pénalité financière était de ne pas pouvoir travailler pendant trois semaines en été. Donc, et je pense que ce que j'ai entendu plus tard, c'est qu'ils l'ont raccourci à cause du problème de la perte de revenus pour les étudiants. C'est peut-être encore le cas. Je ne sais pas vraiment, mais c'était... c'était une très bonne expérience et j'ai vraiment appris à connaître mes camarades de classe et tout ça. En dépit du fait qu'il s'agissait de garçons, n'est-ce pas ? Oui, pour ainsi dire. Victoria : Et vous me parliez hier au téléphone des étudiantes en soins infirmiers et du fait qu'elles vous rejoignaient dans les bâtiments d'ingénierie. Kathleen : Oui, oui. Victoria : Pouvez-vous me dire... pouvez-vous répéter ce que vous avez dit hier à ce sujet ? Kathleen : Bien sûr. Et vous savez que je vous ai dit qu'il y avait un bâtiment d'ingénierie qui était tout au bout du campus et bien sûr que le bâtiment d'ingénierie plus récent, je crois, est plus loin au bout du campus. Mais les sciences ? La faculté des sciences se trouvait dans les environs, un peu à côté, le bâtiment d'ingénierie était le plus éloigné, et je crois que c'était à l'époque où j'y étais. Ou peut-être était-ce avant mon arrivée. La faculté des sciences infirmières s'est installée dans le bâtiment et nous avons pensé - peut-être l'ai-je inventé ou peut-être quelqu'un me l'a-t-il raconté - que les ingénieurs avaient déplacé les étudiantes en sciences infirmières pour qu'il y ait des femmes et des hommes dans le bâtiment et qu'il y ait quelques ingénieurs, pour que l'environnement des ingénieurs ne soit pas totalement masculin, qui m'invitaient à un événement TGIF tous les vendredis et que nous voyions dans les couloirs, etc. Je me demande donc s'il s'agissait d'une décision délibérée de la part de l'université, ou d'une simple coïncidence. "Il y a de la place dans le bâtiment des ingénieurs pour y mettre les infirmières, mais c'est un peu étrange, quand on y pense... on pense qu'ils mettent juste plus de cours de chimie ou quelque chose comme ça, vous voyez ? Parce que le bâtiment des ingénieurs était plein de laboratoires, d'ingénieurs et d'autres choses du même genre. C'est donc une partie intéressante de l'histoire de l'université de savoir si c'était délibéré ou non. Victoria : Est-ce que le fait d'avoir plus de femmes dans le bâtiment vous a donné l'impression que c'était un environnement plus inclusif, ou est-ce que cela vous a donné l'impression de le regarder un peu bizarrement et de vous dire, ohhh, vous savez, c'est pour ça qu'ils les ont mises ici ? Kathleen : Oui, je dirais que c'est le dernier cas. Je n'ai rien à voir avec eux. Je veux dire que je n'ai pas partagé de cours avec eux. Je n'ai donc pas eu l'occasion de les connaître. Je m'identifie vraiment à ma classe, n'est-ce pas ? Nous étions donc un petit monde à part. Victoria : Oui, vous aviez votre propre petite communauté et c'était presque, oui. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : La section suivante porte sur l'idéologie et les différences générationnelles. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : J'ai l'impression que cela se produit avec chaque nouveau groupe. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Kathleen : Je pense qu'il y avait certainement, et de mon point de vue personnel, une certaine rébellion, c'est vrai. Je veux dire, évidemment, j'ai déménagé à 18 ans avec mon petit ami. C'est une chose terrible à faire, vous savez, pour les vieux parents et tout ce genre de choses. J'étais donc en marge de la culture de la drogue et de toutes ces choses, mais c'était une chose personnelle. Je ne me suis pas mobilisé pour changer le monde. Je rejetais simplement le système de valeurs de mes parents. Ce n'est pas du tout la même chose que de travailler pour un monde meilleur, et c'était absent de mon expérience universitaire. Et je suis sûr que ce n'est pas du tout le cas à la faculté des arts. Mais les ingénieurs avaient la tête baissée, en gros, donc je veux dire, et je suis devenue beaucoup plus consciente de ce genre de choses en vieillissant, évidemment. Mais oui, désolée. Victoria : Non, ne vous excusez pas. Est-ce que tes parents t'ont découragée d'entreprendre une carrière dans les STIM, ou les conseillers à l'école, ou quoi que ce soit du genre ? Kathleen : Oui. Eh bien, le fait est que les conseillers à l'école ne m'ont jamais mentionné la possibilité, vous savez, comme d'y penser. Je veux dire, c'est assez terrible, je veux dire qu'ils m'ont encouragé à ne pas aller vers un diplôme de technologie. J'étais tellement concentré sur l'obtention d'un emploi que je me suis dit que j'obtiendrais un diplôme de technologie. Ce n'est que trois ans et ils m'ont dit que tu ne devrais pas faire ça. Tu as les capacités académiques pour le faire, alors c'est ce qu'ils ont fait. On ne m'a pas découragé de ne pas obtenir de diplôme, mais on n'a jamais, littéralement jamais parlé d'ingénierie. Et ma mère m'a raconté une petite histoire à ce sujet, à un moment où j'ai pris la décision de m'orienter vers l'ingénierie, quand on m'a présenté l'ingénierie à la fin de la première année et que j'ai décidé que ce serait ma matière principale, le génie civil. Ma mère m'a dit : "Pourquoi veux-tu faire ça, Cath ? C'était comme si elle, vous savez, je veux dire, je me souviens de ces mots et pourtant ils, vous savez, ils étaient manifestement fiers de moi. Vous avez vu cette chose, la bourse, mais elle ne connaissait aucune femme ingénieur. Et elle, je ne pense pas qu'ils m'aient envoyée à l'université pour me marier. Ils ne l'ont pas fait, mais elle ne comprenait pas pourquoi je voulais étudier pour une carrière qui, selon elle, n'est pas une carrière pour les femmes. Je n'ai pas failli à la tâche. C'est juste qu'elle ne connaissait pas les femmes et que je ne connaissais pas les femmes ingénieurs. En y repensant, je me demande pourquoi je n'ai pas eu peur. Ou pourquoi ne me suis-je pas remise en question ou quoi que ce soit d'autre ? Mais je ne me posais pas beaucoup de questions à l'époque et c'est en fait, lorsque j'étais en première année et que je suivais tous ces cours de mathématiques, je me souviens que je suis même entrée dans... je crois que j'ai essayé un club de mathématiques ou quelque chose comme ça et c'était tellement intello et les professeurs étaient tellement ésotériques que je me suis dit : " Est-ce que je pourrais vraiment faire ça ? J'étais à un moment de ma vie, à l'université, où le monde était plus réel et j'ai eu le sentiment que le concept de mathématiques appliquées, qui est ce qu'est l'ingénierie et qui est aussi une science appliquée, pouvait être appliqué à la résolution de problèmes et à la recherche de solutions. Les appliquer pour résoudre des problèmes et des choses comme ça. Vous savez, c'est ce qui a vraiment résonné en moi, mais ce message ne m'a pas été transmis et je soupçonne qu'il a été davantage transmis aux hommes. J'ai lu à plusieurs reprises que si vous voyez une femme ingénieur, il ne vous vient pas à l'esprit que vous pouvez en être une. Si vous les voyez physiquement ou si vous les entendez parler ou si elles sont professeurs ou autre. Il n'y a pas de femmes professeurs dont je me souvienne, je ne pense pas. Il ne vous vient jamais à l'esprit que vous pourriez le faire, c'est pourquoi et je pense que c'est pourquoi cela s'est accéléré assez rapidement, vous savez, une fois qu'il y a une femme, il y en a une autre et une autre, et maintenant vous savez, de nombreux programmes. Je ne sais pas quelles sont les statistiques à Ottawa, mais par exemple, le génie de l'environnement a probablement plus de 50% de femmes, donc pour revenir à votre concept de vouloir faire une différence dans le monde. Je pense que certains d'entre vous savent, je sais que cela ne ressemble pas à une cause, il ne s'agit pas de protester et tout ça, mais de faire une différence dans l'environnement. Vous savez, les carrières qui attirent les femmes - les femmes en général - ont souvent un sens plus aigu de la responsabilité sociale. Peut-être que je fais une déclaration trop large, mais l'ingénierie est un moyen de changer les choses. Victoria : C'était formidable. Je vous remercie. D'accord. Dans les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne vous paraissait le plus détraqué et le plus à corriger ? Peut-être pas sur le campus, mais est-ce qu'il y a quelque chose dont vous vous souvenez quand vous étiez à l'école et que vous vous êtes dit : oh, c'est complètement faux. Kathleen : Oui, je me souviens que la première fois que j'ai rencontré une personne noire, c'était à l'université. Je n'en avais jamais rencontré, j'en avais probablement vu une dans la rue ou quelque chose comme ça, mais Ottawa à l'époque, contrairement à aujourd'hui, je crois que c'était un endroit très blanc. J'avais aussi des amis au lycée et j'étais consciente de l'intolérance à l'égard des Canadiens français. Je savais que certaines personnes avaient ces gens-là. J'avais une petite amie qui disait des choses à un ami du lycée, vous savez, qui me disait quelque chose. Mon père me disait "ne te comporte pas comme ça". Je veux dire que c'était vraiment un homme avec des idéaux. Donc, pour ce qui est de ce genre de choses, ce sont des choses basiques. Je crois donc qu'il y avait un certain sectarisme à l'égard des Canafiens français et je l'ai rencontré dans mon travail juste après avoir quitté l'université. Oui, et ce n'était pas une bonne chose dans la société canadienne. Je ne sais pas s'il existe encore. Ma fille vit maintenant à Ottawa. Je ne lui en ai jamais parlé, mais ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Et cela dépendait du niveau auquel vous travailliez, et les gens du bas de l'échelle, il y avait plus de choses de ce genre. Je veux dire qu'il y avait cet intellectuel, Pierre Trudeau, qui était là à l'époque. Tout le monde était amoureux de lui et ce genre de choses. C'était différent. Mais ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Je pense, mais pour ce que j'en sais, que ce n'était pas une bonne chose pour la société canadienne. Je suppose que pour moi, c'est devenu un problème important. Je ne parle pas seulement du côté canadien-français, mais je n'ai pas du tout grandi dans un environnement multiculturel. C'est comme un environnement britannique, en gros, c'est ça ? Et je pense que ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Maintenant, je sais que le Canada a évolué dans un sens puis dans l'autre. Je veux dire qu'il est très accueillant pour les immigrants, ce qui est une chose merveilleuse. Je pense que ce genre de problème a été résolu, mais j'essaie de penser à d'autres choses. Je me souviens avoir pensé que je vivais dans un meilleur pays que les États-Unis. C'est ce que je ressentais vraiment. J'étais fière, mais pas fière de brandir le drapeau. C'est ce que je ressentais, je veux dire que je le ressens probablement encore dans une certaine mesure. Cela a quelque peu changé, évidemment. Je vis ici maintenant (Massacusets), alors oui. Je sais que ce n'est pas une réponse très profonde, mais c'est la seule chose à laquelle je peux penser. Encore une fois, je ne connaissais pas le monde. Je n'avais jamais quitté le pays. Le seul pays auquel je nous comparais était la Grande-Bretagne ou les États-Unis. Victoria : Juste en complément, aviez-vous le sentiment que le système politique de l'époque était démocratique, juste et sensible aux besoins des citoyens ? Si vous vous en souvenez. Kathleen : Oui, je pense que oui. Mon père était une sorte de socialiste de salon. Vous savez, je ne connais pas ce terme, mais il parlait de politique, mais il n'était pas en colère à ce sujet. Je pense que ma connaissance de la politique s'est faite en écoutant mon père. Je n'étais pas impliquée et engagée. Je ne sentais pas que nous vivions dans un mauvais endroit et j'étais heureux de - vous savez, je pensais que les choses allaient bien. Je le pensais vraiment. Victoria : Non, c'est bien. C'est toujours le cas, je ne sais pas. Je me sens un peu comme ça maintenant. Je me sens bien au Canada, mais je suis en sciences politiques et plus j'apprends sur la politique et plus j'apprends sur le passé, évidemment ça change toujours, mais je me sens toujours un peu... je me sens bien. Kathleen Oui, c'est un pays très respecté, à peu près, nous pourrions, le Canada pourrait contribuer davantage, vous savez, à la défense et à des choses comme ça. C'est le seul domaine où ils ne font pas tout à fait leur part. Mais je le pense à bien des égards. J'entends ma fille. J'entends que mes filles sont très intéressées par la politique. Je pense qu'elle est, vous savez, juste la différence, je veux dire que pour moi, la différence entre les libéraux et les conservateurs au Canada est si petite, vous le savez. L'autre chose, c'est que c'est presque comme un pays à parti unique, mais tout va bien. Et vous savez, toutes les prestations sociales, je pense que le niveau de vie... J'ai quitté le pays à l'âge de trente ans. Je suis parti à l'âge de trente ans et serais-je dans la même situation si j'étais resté ? Je ne sais pas vraiment. Je pense que j'avais l'impression d'être dans un petit étang, c'est en partie pour cela que je suis partie. Pas entièrement, je veux dire que j'ai épousé un Américain. Vous savez quoi ? J'y pense, c'était un petit étang et l'opportunité, vous savez, un gros poisson dans un petit étang. Je n'étais pas un gros poisson quand je suis parti, mais je pense que j'avais certainement plus d'opportunités ici. Mais je veux dire que c'est juste la nature du pays, la taille du pays, le nombre de personnes, le nombre d'opportunités commerciales et ce genre de choses, n'est-ce pas ? Et je pense qu'en devenant tellement plus global, tellement plus accueillant, avec tant de gens venant de tant d'autres pays, vous avez en quelque sorte apporté des morceaux d'autres étangs, vous savez, donc, c'est génial. Victoria : Ok, désolée, laissez-moi voir. Ok, la partie suivante concerne le mouvement de l'amour libre. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague au début des années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'époque, comme à l'époque de l'Université d'Ottawa ? Kathleen : Oui, j'en suis sûre. Je sais que c'était juste à l'orée de cette période. Je ne sais pas comment, je ne sais pas comment c'était cinq ans avant, parce que je, je veux dire que le sexe était partout. Donc il y avait beaucoup de sexe, beaucoup de sexe, de drogues et de rock'n'roll, oui. Victoria : J'aime bien ça, "sexe, drogues et rock'n'roll". Comment votre génération voyait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Tu as mentionné que tu avais un enfant, mais certains de tes camarades de classe étaient plus âgés et ils étaient déjà mariés et installés. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Est-ce que c'était du genre, vous avez fini l'école et vous vous êtes mariés ou quoi ? Qu'est-ce que tu en penses ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu une supposition automatique que cela allait se produire. Je pense que cela a changé lorsque j'étais à l'université et, encore une fois, vous savez, les ingénieurs sont des gens conservateurs en général. Ils se situaient donc à cette extrémité du spectre. Je connaissais beaucoup de gens qui vivaient avec d'autres personnes, ce genre de choses, et le contrôle des naissances a évidemment contribué à tout cela. Je pense que vous savez que nous étions ouverts à différentes façons d'avoir des partenaires multiples dans une certaine mesure. Je veux dire que ma situation était évidemment différente. D'une certaine manière, elle l'était. D'une certaine manière, elle ne l'était pas. J'ai rencontré un homme quand j'étais au lycée et je suis allée vivre avec lui, mais je suis tombée enceinte et je me suis mariée. Alors je ne sais pas, peut-être qu'aujourd'hui je l'aurais fait. Je ne sais pas, mais je ne suis pas sûre que c'était le cas, mais c'est probablement la bonne chose à faire. Alors non, je pense que nous étions, c'est quelque chose que vous savez, nous n'étions pas nécessairement en retard au Canada. Victoria : D'accord, oui. Non, c'est tout à fait logique, merci. Ok, nous approchons de la fin. C'est la dernière petite section. Il s'agit juste d'une clause de non-responsabilité indiquant que cette dernière partie traite de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Elle est totalement facultative. C'est à vous de décider si vous voulez. Je peux lire les questions et vous pouvez décider d'y répondre ou non. La première question porte sur le fait que de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires ont-elles surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes ? Kathleen : Non, pour autant que je sache. Victoria : Aujourd'hui, sur le campus, voici un exemple. Nous avons ces petits boutons, comme les petits silos d'urgence, à peu près tous les pâtés de maisons, et si vous appuyez sur le bouton, une grande alarme se déclenche et vous savez, des gens vont venir à votre emplacement. C'est si vous êtes suivi ou si vous ne vous sentez pas en sécurité sur le campus ou si nous avons un programme de retour à la maison. Kathleen. Non. Victoria : Vous pouvez aller au centre universitaire et trouver un compagnon. Et nous avons aussi, je crois que c'est volontaire, mais il y a aussi des étudiants qui sont des sortes d'auxiliaires médicaux, je dirais ça au sens large, sur le campus qui surveillent les zones pendant les grandes soirées de rentrée ou les fêtes pendant le week-end. Y avait-il quelque chose de ce genre lorsque vous étiez là-bas ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas. Non, je n'étais pas au courant. Encore une fois, si j'avais vécu près de l'université ou sur le campus. Je ne participais pas du tout à la vie nocturne sur le campus. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : Je ne pense pas que je sois allée quelque part la nuit, ou le soir. Mais certainement pas dans les événements sociaux qui, je suppose que non, pas que je connaissais Victoria : Ohh. Kathleen : C'est peut-être seulement que je n'en étais pas consciente. Victoria : La question suivante, on en a déjà parlé, mais c'est à propos des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, mais je me demandais comment c'était perçu sur le campus. Est-ce que c'était perçu négativement, accepté ou même encouragé ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas qu'il y avait une façon de l'encourager, mais c'était certainement accepté/ vous savez, c'était tout à fait courant, tout à fait courant. Victoria : Parfait, et voici la dernière question. Il s'agit de savoir si les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient des relations sexuelles avant le mariage. Kathleen : Euh, eh bien. Il n'y a pas de réponse unique à cette question, n'est-ce pas ? Je ne sais pas si le mot m'inquiète. Je pense qu'ils étaient, en tout cas je pense que mes parents étaient conscients, évidemment avant même que je parte vivre avec mon petit ami, qu'il y avait des relations sexuelles avant le mariage. Mais je ne me souviens pas, je veux dire les pilules et les choses que j'ai emportées, je ne me souviens pas que ma mère, vous savez, elle ne savait rien de tout cela. Nous n'en avons jamais parlé. Quoi qu'il en soit. Peut-être que le mot inquiétude fait référence à ce qui pourrait arriver en termes de bébés et de choses comme ça, je suis sûre qu'ils s'inquiétaient. Tout le monde s'inquiète de la naissance d'un bébé, vous savez, d'un bébé non désiré. Mais encore une fois, les générations de mes parents étaient probablement deux générations. Ma mère n'avait pas 20 ans lorsqu'elle m'a mis au monde. Elle avait 45 ans. Elle était donc un peu comme si elle ne comprenait pas cette nouvelle génération, et elle m'a vraiment laissée toute seule à cause de cela. Je ne veux pas dire que c'est négatif. Victoria : Non, je ressens la même chose, comme ma mère, sans vouloir la jeter dans le bus, mais elle a 62 ans maintenant, et c'est un peu la même chose. Je ne sais pas comment l'expliquer, mais le fait d'avoir des parents plus âgés me fait penser que certains de mes amis ont des parents dans la quarantaine et je me dis : " Oh là là ! Kathleen : Oui, ils sont beaucoup plus envahissants. Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Oui, oui, j'ai trouvé ça aussi. Les autres parents essaient d'être tes amis, ils veulent que tu leur parles tout le temps. Et ma mère est comme, je ne comprends pas ce genre de choses. Victoria : Oui, ma mère est une baby boomer et elle ne veut pas m'appeler, comme si je devais l'appeler. Ce qui n'est pas un problème, mais c'est vraiment différent d'avoir des parents d'une génération plus âgée. Kathleen : Et je pense que c'est une chose positive Victoria. Je pense que tu regarderas en arrière et tu te rendras compte que l'indépendance que tu as maintenant vient en partie de ta mère. C'est elle qui t'a dit, d'une certaine façon, c'est une façon d'être indépendante. Victoria : Voilà qui conclut les questions d'entretien qui m'ont été posées. J'avais une question à poser, si vous le voulez bien. Kathleen : Bien. Victoria : Je m'interrogeais sur la technologie sur le campus. Qu'est-ce qu'on exigeait de vous en tant qu'étudiant, qu'est-ce que vous étiez censé avoir et quelle technologie utilisait-on dans la salle de classe ? Kathleen : Oui. Il y avait donc une transition en cours. Je veux dire, il y a toujours eu des questions et de la technologie, n'est-ce pas ? Nous avons perforé des cartes d'ordinateur. Vous ne savez peut-être même pas ce que c'est. En d'autres termes, nous avions des ordinateurs centraux et nous apprenions à perforer des cartes pour les introduire dans le programme. C'était vraiment très ancien. Mais nous avions aussi des règles à calcul. Les ingénieurs ont des règles à calcul et on leur a appris cela en 3e ou 4e année, je crois. Nous avons commencé à avoir des calculatrices qui additionnaient, soustrayaient, multipliaient et divisaient. C'est tout. C'était l'étendue de la technologie. Il n'y avait pas de téléphones, pas de smartphones, rien de tout cela. C'est donc assez intéressant. Nous devions fournir notre propre règle à calcul, qui n'était pas très chère, ainsi que les calculatrices. Je ne pense pas qu'elles étaient très chères aujourd'hui, elles ne coûtent rien, n'est-ce pas ? Un dollar ou quelque chose comme ça, mais elles n'étaient pas aussi chères ni aussi performantes. Je ne me souviens pas vraiment que l'argent ait été un obstacle. Je veux dire que j'ai évidemment obtenu cette bourse. Mais je pense que mes parents auraient, même s'ils avaient des revenus assez faibles, mon père travaillait dans la salle du courrier de la compagnie d'assurance. Et ma mère était secrétaire pour le gouvernement. Nous n'étions donc pas une famille à hauts revenus, mais je pense qu'ils auraient été en mesure de payer mes frais de scolarité, etc. Vous savez, c'est un autre aspect positif du Canada et de la culture canadienne pour moi. J'ai remarqué une grande différence entre les États-Unis et la qualité de l'accès à l'enseignement supérieur, qui est beaucoup plus universel au Canada qu'aux États-Unis. Je n'ai pas envoyé ma fille à l'étranger, mais je l'ai fortement encouragée à retourner au Canada pour y faire des études universitaires, car je sais qu'elle y obtiendrait un bon prix et que la population scolaire serait plus universelle. Il n'y a donc pas que les enfants riches, mais elle ne suit pas mes traces. Elle envoie ses enfants dans des écoles privées, c'est son choix. Victoria : Ok, c'est génial. Je pense que c'est tout. Merci beaucoup. Kathleen : D'accord, bien. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Almand, Kathleen (interview) Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bates, Victoria Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University Of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the 1970s, including the bilingual culture, counterculture, and women's experience on campus. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-16 Language A language of the resource English Person An individual. Schools Attended University of Ottawa 1968-1974 Western University 1974-1976 University of Toronto 1993-1995 Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Degree BA PhD Professional degree MA Career professional Occupation Medicine - Specialty: Family Medicine Ethnicity English Irish Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maxted, John Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gumboc, Reyana