4 10 55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Matheson, Amilia Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Zoom) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound (Start of part 1 of interview) Amilia Matheson: (1:54) Section one is on popular culture. (2:00) So, cultural historians have argued that television Hollywood popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together, so our first question is, there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time scheduled, or what did uOttawa students do for fun in the 1970s? Ernest Tannis: (2:30) Well, apart from all the drinking… it was rampant well… even among the some of the professors and the Dean, but that seemed to be a pretty prevalent theme throughout law school was the drinking and too often intoxication. I mean there was one night when one of our students friends or colleagues decided to photocopy his bum and sat on the photocopy machine… had to go to the hospital and that's an extreme thing but that's something that we do remember; is that even driving back and forth, some of us were coming in from out of town: Prescott, and people… I mean these were law students still drinking and driving. So, the kind of conduct was not as great as it should have been and that related to interrelationships. So, those were not… I mean there was like a… they were like the 70s hippies but we're law students. But it was a way to deal with the stress of law school because it was very stressful. I think I told you about getting into law school there was over a thousand applicants… they only picked just about a hundred, and the first day, the Dean put ten of us each and his office (4:00) didn't say congratulations. He said, “look around… 40% of you won't be here next year,” then he said, “handle an article the good law school flunks 40% of its students,” he said, “even if you make it the second, third year.” So, there's a lot of pressure, very strict pressure. But, at the end of the day after many years of people, we we only ended up with sixty-five people from a-hundred-and-some [graduated]. People said, well, we got prepared for the tough people… we said we're getting you prepared for a tough profession. So, it was a kind of environment I was not expecting, and I'm not used to. That gives you word… we thought it was fun and it [drinking] was the way they, you know, deal with everything, and there is no leeway given in terms of exams or papers. Those days, 100% of your grade was the last exam, and it was an open exam, you could bring stuff in. But you were just… you're looking over your shoulder. So I think in, you know, in reflection it was a very stressful environment, and it was always great to feel that you made it to the next year and you didn't know what was going on and on and on, and then you see people it was some people have heart attacks and the stress… there was one woman in particular she had the BA, a masters degree, A plus plus and she didn't make it, and she became… she kind of fell apart. So I saw a lot of damaged goods, but the ones… we did enjoy it I always joke my way through law school. I was joking in class and that's how we made it through. So, I don't know if (6:00) that answers your question in in any part, but that was what comes to me when you ask that. And there was not a lot of electronics, it's true, and we had one guy in particular that became the walking genius so we all had lined up to ask him questions. One thing we did do, we had study groups that were really good. We actually officially met for study groups and learned from each other, but we had to stay on top of the materials. Amilia Matheson: (6:31) Okay, perfect that was a great answer… exactly what I was looking for thank you. I have some follow up questions for this theme if you have any information on these little questions they’re more specific. Okay, what were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? Ernest Tannis: (7:00) Oh well, let me think. Well, definitely the local bars. I think you're jogging my memory, but I do believe we did enjoy the library. Like, we found the library is very quiet, we can do our research there. You know people were not allowed to speak out, so you could have focus time. So, I remember how much time we spent at the library. Often we were together, or if we can go to a place where we could pass notes or whatever. But we would do research together, we would make sure that the required readings were all done up, and sometimes there was optional readings. Sometimes we would use our spots to like, if there was a lot of reading to be done, we would take turns reading (8:00) certain things and then debrief the others [instead] of everybody reading one thing. So, we developed a very collective group. I think we had about five students or more in each group, and so that was good. That's what I think of… that library. I mean, to me it was my second home. I loved the library. I love books. I wanted to be, actually, I wanted to be a librarian not a lawyer. But anyway, that's another story. Other spots we would go tried to do… some group buildings like theater, or plays, or you know. We tried to socialize as a group, and some of us got to know others better, some of us stayed away from certain people because they would want to do things that were not appropriate. And then other spots, well I was very much into the spiritual realm. I always have been so, you know some of us, we’d go to spiritual places together. I like to go to all the different places: mosques, synagogues, you know, where Buddhist and Hindus meet, Christians, Jews. So going to those spots, in recollection I tried once a week to try to get some people to go to a different place because they're all governed by laws, Canon law you know, there’s common law, there’s civil law, there's Sharia law but there's also the Canon law. So it's good to get to know how religions see the law. And then, Shakespeare wrote, “if religious canons be cruel, what should war be?” So that was another thing that comes to mind. Amilia Matheson: (9:44) Okay perfect. Ottawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it in the 1970s? Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same courses and participate in the same clubs? Ernest Tannis: (10:00) That's a great question. My recollection is, people couldn't in those days we were the first law school at the Fauteux Hall 1971. That's when it opened, so we have that and we’re doing our 50th anniversary next year. So, you can always do everything in English. People with French, I think in those days they can ask for some French, but I don't remember that the faculty were fully bilingual. I don't remember that being the case, so I think that was a factor. But I always believe the only language in the world that counts is the language of love, and the idea of these verbal languages… like, we can get too trapped in words. We should work from our heart, and I guess somebody said maybe they got involved with the law to try to humanize, to bring some humanization to it. But trying to bring the language of love into the legal profession and law school was an objective of mine and we would have conversations around there. So the linguistic part it does not stand out as a big issue, it's not an obstacle, and it wasn't required. But it was in the air though for sure. There was a lot of sensitivity around ensuring the respect for the French language because it's a bilingual university. Amilia Matheson: (11:35) What did the student body think about the Vietnam War? Ernest Tannis: (11:42) Well, I would say in general all of that generation were against the war. You know, I can't imagine, when you look back at history and you look at the protests now that are going on, especially with the social media, (12:00) and a lot of the hare krishna people, with all the draft dodgers and all the cases of people trying to get excused from the war for conscious objectors. That was a part that I found intriguing about you know the famous cases where people go to be conscious objectors, and they were ridiculed if they wanted to avoid service, which you know, and those issues prevail today. But I would say by and large the attitude of university students everywhere was against that kind of intervention for a lot of reasons not just political and intellectual and philosophical. It was about military and somebody else controlling your life and it didn't seem to be sensible or fair that somebody can require you to go kill another human being. But war is necessary sometimes, it's killing… this killing is not a problem. It's murder, as so killing is usually justified to protect your family and your property and your nation which we have done in history and is still being done, but that war did not resonate. I don't think with that generation. Amilia Matheson: (13:23) All right, I think I have two more questions for this section and then we can move on to the next. The first question is: rock'n'roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? Ernest Tannis: (13:42) They didn't comprehend it. I don't think they would try to figure out what it was. It was like a foreign language in a way. So, there was not like a dialogue around, it was just something that they didn't want to learn that language. We spoke that language (14:00) and they said it's fine with you, you know, don't bother us with that we're too old to learn a new language. So, there was a real generational divide on that. Amilia Matheson: (14:14) Alright, and for this last one, if you don't feel comfortable answering this one you don't have to speak of your personal experience or anything, but the question is: some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus? Ernest Tannis: (14:33) Too much. By the way, I told you in our last discussion, there's never a last question there's only the next one. Drugs, I never partook in them. There was one night, somebody asked me to try it out, and apparently it was very funny for the rest of the night I don't quite remember. Somebody was giving me cookies because I couldn't smoke… I tried but I just could not relate to that, but I found that on campus that was pretty prevalent, openly or secretly. I could not relate to that, and there were a lot of parties to go to, and there was more drugs than alcohol. Sometimes I had trouble because I was inhaling it. But people seem to open up more when they were on drugs, you know, they seem to be able to get stuff out, and so I was always sober in that regard so I became an active listener. So I learned a lot. People there bore their souls a lot you know about their frustrations or their concerns, and so it seemed to be a necessary ingredient for some people to get through. Amilia Matheson: (15:57) Alright, thank you. Okay, our second section is (16:00) the female experience. So the opening statement slash question is: cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement women during the early 70s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the uOttawa campus in the early 1970s? Ernest Tannis: (16:22) Oh for sure. It's a great question, you know, whoever drafted these questions knows what they're talking about. Amilia Matheson: (16:30) I helped draft these questions! Ernest Tannis: (16:32) Oh, very good! One of the things that struck all of us was that out of a thousand-plus applicants the majority were men. There were still quite a bit of women, we didn't know the exact number but it was quite a few. But of the hundred-and-some that were accepted, and when you look at the end of the day, of the 65 graduates there was only five women. Now you compare that to today there's over 50% as I know in law school that are women. And that was kind of a tension at the time. It was like it was always considered to be a, I think, a male dominated profession from the time it got started in 18th century and was brought over here from England. But I don't think women, you know, were considered to be the right gender for law school and judges. I mean, the first female judge in Canada was in the early 1980s, late 1970s. Justice Roselie Abella, who became a judge of the Court of Appeal and the judge of the Supreme Court of Canada. I talked to you about her. She's been phenomenal supportive social justice but she and other women like her they did breakthroughs in Canada. I think that helped because if you look at her career, in fact she was under 30 I think, and she was pregnant too, (18:00) so that made it really unique in Canadian history. Women like that and other women in the profession did make some breakthroughs, and that started around that time. So Justice Abella, if you look at her incredible career, and she wrote the 1984 report on equality for everybody including disabled people, people of color, and so on. So I think at that time frame your cultural historians should look at the women that made those strides. It was like the Suffragette movement. There were women well known for making sure that women can vote. There were women back then in the late 70s, 80s, but really the 70s when we were there, who were making breakthroughs including into the faculty and other positions in society. So I would kind of add that to the mix of some study about that, and definitely put Justice Rosalie Abella to top of the list. They were inspiring, I think, to the women in our class. It was inspiring to see women get into these positions. Amilia Matheson: (19:09) All right, a follow-up question: in your own words what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 70s? Ernest Tannis: (19:19) Well, I guess people's… I mean I saw that phrase as an evolution of thinking. The woman that came up with that phrase, her name escapes me, but she ended up ridiculing the third wave of feminism and so on. So, it was kind of a split within the movement about that, and it kind of, although, was trying to do an integration concept and equality, it actually created a lot of divisions, I found, a lot of conflict. We're not, you know, equal and all the rest of it, so the woman that wrote the book and started, she ended up being ostracized by the feminist movement because she found it went too far, (20:00) and it was not integrating thinking with other not just male sectors, but other sectors of society. But at that time, it was what we call the second wave, we went to a third wave, fourth wave, and then it got taken over by a group… that's what I understand. But in those days, my recollection is it was appreciated that that topic was being considered, I mean I was getting involved with disability issues, and there was a lot of issues around with justice. In the 1984 very historic document in Canada and actually was accepted around Canada and other law common law countries, a good breakthrough of disadvantaged people, and women were considered in that group. So we got to look at it in the bigger context when you look at that history. I think we were at the beginning, and it was quite exciting to see it evolve. Amilia Matheson: (20:59) Okay, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to male students? Ernest Tannis: (21:13) Well, the expectations, sadly, was not just about in the classrooms but in the bedrooms. So, that to me was very disheartening and I dare to say there was a couple of women that made themselves available and that didn't help. I mean that part of the experience was not that comfortable. There was even, with married people, there was like you're here in you’re in law school and you’re not at home, so I think the that part of the human (22:00) journey was not well respected as much as it should have been. So, that part of the law school experience did not sit well with me, but I guess there's a lot of pressure on certain women to do certain things and most of them kept their integrity, but there was sort of a expectations that were very male-orientated that still prevailed I think. That was a challenge for sure, and I think those are the old days, but in that time it was some tension around that. Amilia Matheson: (22:42) In the 1970s were there uOttawa programs, departments, or clubs where women were less present and accepted than others? Ernest Tannis: (23:05) Well actually that’s a really interesting question. I would say it was not official that they were not accepted. I remember going to a number of events where there was an impression left that you're not welcome. It was kind of going to be an all-males, and you know technically, the door was open to women, but the signal was you’re not welcome, and I didn't like that part either. And some women that actually tried to crash some events because they thought that was unacceptable, so that created some interesting evenings. There was one in particular they were trying to convince this woman not to come, and she said “well I'm a member of the university, I'm going to last school. Why can't I come in?” And she threatened to (24:00) bring a whole bunch of women if they didn't let her in. I remember she was very daring. Yeah so that was not easy for, I think, women at that time. It's not like that today. But they were trying to make some breakthroughs. Amilia Matheson: (24:16) Okay, so we've hit the halfway point. We're moving on to the third of four sections, and this section is on ideology and generational differences. So, the main statement is: historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture movement meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents’ generation. And so, my first question is: to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? Ernest Tannis: (24:51) Well, I would think my first reaction is that would be the top item in the agenda, you know, we’re the next generation. We're in our 20s. We have a lot of history in our own families, and our own culture, and our own country, and our world. We're in law school. It's all supposed to be about the access to justice to try to get beyond the legality, and the formality, and history of the law to look at the purpose of the law. So, as this song says that, “justice is just us,” I think there was a feeling that our generation can come out and make a contribution, not just to enrich how the system works, but how the soul of the system works. So, I think that there was a feeling that, you know, we could have that opportunity and we felt emboldened because we're the first class in Fauteux Hall, and we were historic, and we're in this wonderful University of Ottawa which is a wonderful university (26:00) of phenomenal history… a lot to be proud of, and it works well with all the other universities and colleges. So the idea of collaboration among academic institutions was inspiring for me, even with the colleges and others, so I think that it was kind of a lofty ambition to come out and do something that would make the general public feel comfortable with not just the legal system, but with lawyers and that we're not just the butt of lawyers jokes, but we have some aspirations that are beneficial for society as a whole… to come out with a larger role of thinking except how much Billings do you do every month and I never once docketed my time in my 47 year history. I never once did that, I just said, “right, here's what I think would cost and what can you afford.” So I think that's a good question. It sort of brings that out to me. Amilia Matheson: (27:08) Alright, to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender family and dating were outdated? Ernest Tannis: (27:21) Well, they were not only outdated, they were out of this world. It was hard to even relate to that thinking. It was like you can't believe you were brought up by people that were like that, but, you know, for me I'm trying to respect my elders, and they all came from another form of upbringing that we have no idea about, and you know, some of them are Muslim, especially in Canada, I mean Canada is a multicultural society, right? Like a sociologist wrote, you know the States is the melting pot, well we have in Canada a set of people from around the world. (28:00) We were in our generation, we were either the second, or third, or fourth, or fifth generation of immigrants. So we have no idea, like, what it was like to be brought up in all these other countries and the rigidity of the cultures and the rules especially between men and women, and then they come to this society with a whole different set of rules, and trying to get rid of stereotypes that everyone is equal before the law. So I think, for me anyway it was like, yeah we're distant, but we are inheriting a culture. And I learned eventually from the native people, who always say that whatever we say, and do, and think will affect the next seven generations. So, we are the 7th generation of people from the past that we have no, like really, idea what it was like for them to grow up, so you can't judge. You just can grow and respect the best of what they bring and realize they were limited, and then we're going to do the same thing for us being the beginning of the next seven generations. That's the way I saw it, so it was kind of a balance. Amilia Matheson: (29:13) Okay, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair, and responsive to citizens needs at that time? Ernest Tannis: (29:24) I don't think it ever has been in history. And not at that time, I mean, politics is an adversarial system that has its own objectives and agendas. Some people wanted me to go into politics, and I couldn't do that, I mean, we need it we need a political system, that’s clear. We need all sorts of systems, but I kind of became apolitical. Even within universities, and all the politics in universities in terms of getting to know people running for office, (30:00) but we need the system to create an interaction of different stakeholders. So, I kind of respected that, and a lot of them did this for very genuine reasons. Some did it for other reasons but only God knows the intentions of people, but I felt the politics, not just generally in society, but even in the university was really difficult to comprehend because the different agendas even with faculty and other players in the university all had their own ambitions which affects your life. It affects how you study, how you graduate, how you get through. I know in one class I said something which was supposed to be funny, but was caused some political upheaval, and the professor was very upset with me. And I did graduate with Cum Laude, the only reason I didn't get Magna Cum Laude was because this professor went and gave me a mark under 70. To get a Magna Cum Laude, you have to get an average whatever… 75, 80 with no mark under 70. He gave me 69, but it was because he politically did not like a comment I made. So, I found that even at that level, politics affected fair judgment of people and if you weren't politically correct you would have consequences like I did with this professor who eventually later on apologized to me, but it didn't matter it was just understanding. I said, “well you had your political position but why did you bring it into the law class?” Like, I had a very valid question… I won't bore you with the question, but it was a valid question. Although it was, as I always do, put it in kind of a funny context, but it was about a question. So, I don't think it was just politics in society, I think that politics in universities need to be looked at. (31:55) (End of part 1 of interview) ... (Start of part 2 of interview) Amilia Matheson: (0:07) All right so… we are in our final section and the section is on dating. Ernest Tannis: Sorry, on what? Amilia Matheson: Dating. Ernest Tannis: Dating… D-A-T-I-N-G ? Amilia Matheson: Oh yeah! Ernest Tannis: What's that [joking]? Amilia Matheson: (0:28) We'll introduce it. Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating in the early 70s. So, my first question is: do you agree with that statement? Ernest Tannis: (0:52) In retrospect I agree with it, I was married at the time and went to law school believe it or not, I mean, it was a very young marriage, and my wife took birth control pills. So, her parents did not agree with that. Her father was a minister and there was a kind of a conflict about that. So, that generation was in conflict, I think of the parents’ generation especially if they're these religious tenants. So, that was a problem, and whether or not she really did I don't know because in second year law school my son was born. So I was father during law school and we're living in another city, and I have to come back and forth on weekends. So, in my recollection, when you asked these questions it opened up a kind of a promiscuousness among (2:00) relationships which I don't think was healthy, you know, abortion is not something that I, you know, except for, you know, like a rape or health of the mother, that kind of stuff, Just if the pill doesn't work, you can have an abortion to me is not spiritually consistent with anybody, you know, everybody follows their own rules. but that was coming. That was there. So I think it increased promiscuity in a very unhealthy way, and I think that it permeated the university students… that age group at that time… not for the good. So it created a lot of problems which we probably still live with today but now people have to find another type of community to avoid all that stuff. So I didn't… I think it was a kind of an excitement about breaking the old rules and having freedom to do what you want to do, and like in that famous movie when the the adult daughter was doing this and doing that… was the name of that movie… and she's said, “you're free,” and the father said, “yeah you're free to do this. You're free to do that. All of the sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll” and then he says, “and you're free to go to hell.” So, I think that movie kind of set the tone of the generational conflict. The name of that movie escapes me right now, but it was about right on point with your question. Amilia Matheson: (3:55) Alright, what did dating look like at uOttawa (4:00) in the 70s? What was the... procedure? Ernest Tannis: (4:04) I was only an observer because I mean, I you know, never had anything pre-marriage. I was not involved with things, so I'm not kind of the right person to ask about that. But I saw it going on quite a bit, and then, you know, one month somebody's dating somebody and then they're dating somebody else that was like, what’d we say what was the right word… it was like a social orgy, you know. There didn't seem to be the same set of guidelines that you hear about or learned about. It kind of was almost the beginning of a free for all which I could not relate to, but a lot of people got involved with that. So I was more like an observer and there was… I think there might have been a couple of times within that era of the law class and everything, and the articling that I think I did get swept up with a couple of events that I’m not happy with… nothing that caused any danger, but it was against my principles. But it was like a group… became like a group thing. So, I think a lot of people went along with stuff that they probably knew was not good idea, but it seemed like that was what was happening and you gotta connect… so, I found that uncomfortable. Amilia Matheson: (5:54) How did your generation look at family and marriage? Ernest Tannis: (6:00) Well I think that was the beginning when the most people were not looking at family and marriage, you know, I don't think. There were people in our class that were students that already were married and even had their kids, but by and large the furthest thing that I thought was on anyone's mind was family and marriage. It was like this is the generation of everyone's gonna carve out their own niche, they're gonna be professional, gonna have a career… the priorities were not like the old days at all. Even though there was only a few women there were still… and that grew over the years actually even more in the law school, and then next year, and the next year. Before we left, there was more women every year coming in, but I think the priorities were more in terms of what can you do with your own life and there's not a lot of talk about the need to get, you know, get married and, you know, dating was… sometimes people were committed to a certain dating, but there was that was not necessarily the case. So, I don't think that that idea was a prevalent idea at the time… the idea of family and marriage and stuff. And it was really, you know, you put yourself in the position it's very expensive to go to university. Some of us got student loans, unlike others in their class with a lot of wealthy parents. I didn't get a cent from my father. It was really tough actually at Carlton, I had to quit for a year because there was no money. So it was really… and I was the first person in my family to even go to a post-secondary school. I was first one to go to university. So, you know you're really focused… the focus was just getting in, getting by, getting graduated. (8:00) So I don't think that those… for me it was a little too late because I already had a son, and then we had a daughter, and now they have their own children and it's wonderful… they're all doing well. Amilia Matheson: (8:12) That's awesome. Okay, we're on our final question, and this question is: to what extent did members of your parents’ generation worry about this dating culture and premarital sex? Ernest Tannis: (8:27) Well, my general reflective impression is that the prior generation gave up on the next generation. They didn't see any more limitations, or general principles of a certain culture being honored. In some cultures it always imposed on women to be a certain way or to do certain things, and those cultures still are around, but back then, I think… I'm not sure if I'm answering your question as well as I should. I’m just trying to reflect. You want to repeat the question? Maybe something else will come to me. Amilia Matheson: (9:22) Sure. To what extent did members of your parents’ generation worry about this dating culture that you described and about premarital sex? Ernest Tannis: (9:31) Okay, so it comes to me now I heard it again. They weren't worried about it… they gave up on us. Just free for all, and I think it dismayed some of the previous generation to see that, but they figured that's the way the world is, and there's nothing they can do about it. There was conflict between the generations (10:00) too for sure and pretty serious consequences, and some of them some of the cultures, you know, some of the women would be killed for deviating from the norm. And there was other consequences to other people, so there was a lot of negative side effects about that, but I think that what I said… I think it wasn't… they just gave up on the next generation so they just had to let it go. Amilia Matheson: (10:36) Okay well, that was my last formal question. Do you have anything else to add before I stop the recording about your experience at the University of Ottawa while you were a student there? Ernest Tannis: (10:50) Well lately I was asked to give a presentation on gratitude and it's a beautiful word. It's very biblical, it's very spiritual, but it's also very practical, and I think we should all be grateful that we had a chance in this part of the world to have such an education. To have dedicated faculty, and Deans, and administrators that want us to succeed, and created a safe environment that we can do the best that we can in our life. So, I think it's really important that all alumni express gratitude to all of those who made the university work in so many levels and still do to this day. Even the current crop of the Dean and the faculty, and to be… and the law schools are seen by many many people still not being up to date with the (12:00) complete adaptation to new ways of doing problem solving, I mean the lawyers and the law profession are gonna go the same, as AI is going to take over a lot of stuff. And a lot of the teaching is to… when former chief judge of the Court of Appeal in Quebec when I was on a panel not long ago, four years ago, said, “publicly I give up on law schools.” There's so many things happening on the ground in a practitioner's way that are not necessarily being taught in law schools and as they should be, and part of my quest for the last 2-3 decades and even now is to try to contribute to improving that. So, the gratitude is the one thing I think should be a prevalent theme by all alumni from the University of Ottawa and that includes specifically for us in the Commonlaw department. (13:08) Transcription Translation Amilia Matheson : La première section porte sur la culture populaire. Les historiens de la culture soutiennent que la télévision, la musique populaire hollywoodienne et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se côtoyaient. Notre première question est donc la suivante : il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne au cours des années 1970. Comment s'organisait votre temps libre, ou que faisaient les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, à part l'alcool... c'était très répandu... même parmi certains professeurs et le doyen, mais cela semblait être un thème assez répandu tout au long de l'école de droit, c'était l'alcool et trop souvent l'intoxication. Je veux dire qu'un soir, l'un de nos amis ou collègues étudiants a décidé de photocopier ses fesses et s'est assis sur la photocopieuse... il a dû aller à l'hôpital et c'est un cas extrême, mais c'est quelque chose dont nous nous souvenons ; c'est que même en conduisant, certains d'entre nous venaient de l'extérieur de la ville : Je veux dire qu'il s'agissait d'étudiants en droit qui buvaient et conduisaient encore. Le comportement n'était donc pas aussi bon qu'il aurait dû l'être, et cela concernait les relations entre les personnes. Ce n'était donc pas... Je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de... ils étaient comme les hippies des années 70, mais nous étions des étudiants en droit. Mais c'était une façon de gérer le stress de l'école de droit, car c'était très stressant. Je crois que je vous ai parlé de l'entrée à l'école de droit, il y avait plus de mille candidats... ils n'en ont choisi qu'une centaine, et le premier jour, le doyen a placé dix d'entre nous et son bureau n'a pas dit "félicitations". Il nous a dit "regardez autour de vous... 40% d'entre vous ne seront pas là l'année prochaine", puis il a dit "lisez un article, la bonne école de droit fait échouer 40% de ses étudiants", a-t-il dit, "même si vous réussissez la deuxième ou la troisième année". Il y a donc beaucoup de pression, une pression très stricte. Mais en fin de compte, après de nombreuses années de travail, nous n'avons obtenu que soixante-cinq personnes sur cent et quelques [diplômés]. Les gens disaient, eh bien, nous nous sommes préparés pour les gens difficiles... nous disions que nous vous préparions pour une profession difficile. C'était donc un environnement auquel je ne m'attendais pas et auquel je n'étais pas habitué. Cela vous donne la parole... nous pensions que c'était amusant et que c'était la façon dont ils géraient tout, et il n'y avait aucune marge de manœuvre en termes d'examens ou de travaux. À l'époque, le dernier examen comptait pour 100 % de la note, et c'était un examen ouvert, vous pouviez apporter des choses. Mais vous étiez juste... vous regardiez par-dessus votre épaule. Je pense donc qu'en termes de réflexion, c'était un environnement très stressant, et c'était toujours agréable de se sentir capable de passer à l'année suivante sans savoir ce qui se passait, et puis on voyait des gens qui avaient des crises cardiaques et le stress... il y avait une femme en particulier qui avait une licence, un master, un A plus plus, et elle n'a pas réussi, et elle est devenue... elle s'est en quelque sorte effondrée. J'ai donc vu beaucoup de produits abîmés, mais ceux... nous en avons profité - j'ai toujours plaisanté pendant mes études de droit. Je plaisantais en classe et c'est comme ça qu'on s'en est sorti. Je ne sais pas si cela répond en partie à votre question, mais c'est ce qui m'est venu à l'esprit lorsque vous l'avez posée. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'électronique, c'est vrai, et nous avions un gars en particulier qui était devenu le génie ambulant et nous faisions tous la queue pour lui poser des questions. Une chose que nous faisions, c'est que nous avions des groupes d'étude qui étaient vraiment bons. Nous nous réunissions officiellement pour des groupes d'étude et nous apprenions les uns des autres, mais nous devions rester au courant du matériel. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, parfait, c'est une excellente réponse... exactement ce que je cherchais, merci. J'ai quelques questions complémentaires pour ce thème, si vous avez des informations sur ces petites questions, elles sont plus spécifiques. D'accord, quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur ? Ernest Tannis : Je vais réfléchir. Eh bien, certainement les bars locaux. Je pense que vous me rafraîchissez la mémoire, mais je crois que nous avons apprécié la bibliothèque. Nous avons trouvé que la bibliothèque était très calme et que nous pouvions y faire nos recherches. Les gens n'avaient pas le droit de parler, ce qui nous permettait de nous concentrer. Je me souviens donc du temps que nous passions à la bibliothèque. Souvent, nous étions ensemble, ou si nous pouvions aller dans un endroit où nous pouvions passer des notes ou autre chose. Mais nous faisions des recherches ensemble, nous nous assurions que les lectures obligatoires étaient toutes faites, et parfois il y avait des lectures facultatives. Parfois, s'il y avait beaucoup de lectures à faire, nous utilisions nos spots pour lire certaines choses à tour de rôle, puis nous débriefions avec les autres [au lieu] de faire lire une seule chose à tout le monde. Nous avons donc développé un groupe très collectif. Je pense que nous avions environ cinq étudiants ou plus dans chaque groupe, et c'était une bonne chose. C'est ce que je pense de cette bibliothèque. Pour moi, c'était ma deuxième maison. J'adorais la bibliothèque. J'adore les livres. Je voulais être bibliothécaire, pas avocate. Mais bon, c'est une autre histoire. D'autres endroits où nous allions essayaient de faire... des activités de groupe comme le théâtre, ou des pièces, ou vous savez. Nous essayions de socialiser en tant que groupe, et certains d'entre nous apprenaient à mieux connaître les autres, d'autres se tenaient à l'écart de certaines personnes parce qu'elles voulaient faire des choses qui n'étaient pas appropriées. Et puis il y a d'autres choses, et bien j'étais très portée sur le monde spirituel. Je l'ai toujours été, alors vous savez, certains d'entre nous allaient ensemble dans des lieux spirituels. J'aime aller dans tous les endroits différents : les mosquées, les synagogues, vous savez, là où les bouddhistes et les hindous se rencontrent, les chrétiens, les juifs. Je me souviens avoir essayé, une fois par semaine, d'amener certaines personnes à se rendre dans un lieu différent, parce qu'ils sont tous régis par des lois, le droit canon, vous savez, il y a le droit commun, le droit civil, la charia, mais il y a aussi le droit canon. Il est donc bon de savoir comment les religions perçoivent la loi. Et puis, Shakespeare a écrit : "Si les canons religieux sont cruels, que devrait être la guerre ?" C'est une autre chose qui me vient à l'esprit. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, parfait. Ottawa était une institution bilingue. Dans quelle mesure était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique dans les années 1970 ? Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient aux mêmes cours et participaient aux mêmes clubs ? Ernest Tannis : C'est une excellente question. Si je me souviens bien, les gens ne pouvaient pas à l'époque. Nous avons été la première école de droit au Fauteux Hall en 1971. C'est à cette époque qu'il a ouvert ses portes, et nous fêterons notre 50e anniversaire l'année prochaine. On peut donc toujours tout faire en anglais. Pour les francophones, je pense qu'à l'époque, ils pouvaient demander un peu de français, mais je ne me souviens pas que le corps professoral était entièrement bilingue. Je ne me souviens pas que cela ait été le cas, alors je pense que cela a été un facteur. Mais j'ai toujours pensé que la seule langue qui compte au monde est la langue de l'amour, et l'idée de ces langues verbales... comme si nous pouvions être trop piégés par les mots. Nous devrions travailler avec notre cœur, et je suppose que quelqu'un a dit qu'il s'était peut-être impliqué dans la loi pour essayer de l'humaniser, de lui apporter un peu d'humanisation. Mais essayer d'introduire le langage de l'amour dans la profession juridique et dans l'école de droit était un de mes objectifs et nous avions des conversations à ce sujet. La partie linguistique n'est donc pas un problème majeur, ce n'est pas un obstacle, et ce n'était pas nécessaire. Mais c'était dans l'air, c'est certain. Il y avait beaucoup de sensibilité pour assurer le respect de la langue française parce que c'est une université bilingue. Amilia Matheson : Que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je dirais qu'en général, toute cette génération était contre la guerre. Vous savez, je ne peux pas imaginer, quand vous regardez l'histoire et que vous regardez les protestations qui ont lieu maintenant, surtout avec les médias sociaux, et beaucoup de gens de hare krishna, avec tous les évadés et tous les cas de gens qui essayent d'être excusés de la guerre pour les objecteurs de conscience. C'est un aspect que j'ai trouvé intriguant, vous savez, les cas célèbres où les gens sont devenus des objecteurs de conscience et où ils ont été ridiculisés s'ils voulaient éviter le service, ce qui, vous le savez, et ces questions prévalent aujourd'hui. Mais je dirais que, dans l'ensemble, l'attitude des étudiants universitaires partout dans le monde était opposée à ce type d'intervention pour de nombreuses raisons, pas seulement politiques, intellectuelles et philosophiques. Il s'agissait de militaires et de quelqu'un d'autre qui contrôlait votre vie, et il ne semblait ni raisonnable ni juste que quelqu'un puisse vous demander d'aller tuer un autre être humain. Mais la guerre est parfois nécessaire, c'est une tuerie... cette tuerie n'est pas un problème. C'est un meurtre, et tuer est généralement justifié pour protéger sa famille, ses biens et sa nation, ce que nous avons fait dans l'histoire et ce que nous faisons encore, mais cette guerre n'a pas eu d'écho. Je ne pense pas que cette génération ait été touchée par cette guerre. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, je pense que j'ai encore deux questions pour cette section et nous pourrons ensuite passer à la suivante. La première question est la suivante : dans les années 1960, les artistes du rock'n'roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme une simple forme de musique populaire ? Ernest Tannis : Ils ne le comprenaient pas. Je ne pense pas qu'ils aient essayé de comprendre ce que c'était. C'était un peu comme une langue étrangère. Il n'y avait pas de dialogue, ils ne voulaient pas apprendre cette langue. Nous parlions cette langue et ils nous disaient que ça ne les dérangeait pas, que nous étions trop vieux pour apprendre une nouvelle langue. Il y avait donc un véritable fossé générationnel à ce sujet. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, et pour cette dernière question, si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise pour y répondre, vous n'êtes pas obligés de parler de votre expérience personnelle ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, mais la question est la suivante : certaines voix de la culture des jeunes des années 70 encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur le campus ? Ernest Tannis : Trop. D'ailleurs, je vous l'ai dit lors de notre dernière discussion, il n'y a jamais de dernière question, il n'y a que la suivante. Je n'ai jamais consommé de drogues. Un soir, quelqu'un m'a demandé d'essayer, et apparemment, c'était très drôle, mais je ne me souviens plus très bien du reste de la nuit. Quelqu'un me donnait des biscuits parce que je ne pouvais pas fumer... J'ai essayé, mais je n'arrivais pas à m'y faire, mais j'ai constaté que sur le campus, c'était assez répandu, ouvertement ou secrètement. Je n'arrivais pas à m'y faire, et il y avait beaucoup de fêtes où l'on pouvait se rendre, et il y avait plus de drogues que d'alcool. J'ai parfois eu des problèmes parce que je l'inhalais. Mais les gens semblent s'ouvrir davantage lorsqu'ils sont sous l'emprise de la drogue, vous savez, ils semblent être capables de faire sortir des choses, et j'ai toujours été sobre à cet égard, ce qui m'a permis de devenir un auditeur actif. J'ai donc beaucoup appris. Les gens se livrent beaucoup, vous savez, sur leurs frustrations ou leurs préoccupations, et il semble que ce soit un ingrédient nécessaire pour que certaines personnes s'en sortent. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, merci. D'accord, notre deuxième section porte sur l'expérience féminine. La question d'ouverture est la suivante : les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? Ernest Tannis : Bien sûr. C'est une excellente question, vous savez, la personne qui a rédigé ces questions sait de quoi elle parle. Amilia Matheson : J'ai participé à la rédaction de ces questions ! Ernest Tannis : Très bien ! L'une des choses qui nous a tous frappés, c'est que sur plus d'un millier de candidats, la majorité était des hommes. Il y avait encore pas mal de femmes, nous n'en connaissions pas le nombre exact, mais elles étaient assez nombreuses. Mais sur les cent et quelques personnes acceptées, et lorsque vous regardez à la fin de la journée, sur les 65 diplômés, il n'y avait que cinq femmes. Si l'on compare ce chiffre à celui d'aujourd'hui, je sais que plus de 50 % des étudiants en droit sont des femmes. C'était une sorte de tension à l'époque. La profession a toujours été considérée, je pense, comme une profession dominée par les hommes depuis qu'elle a été créée au XVIIIe siècle et importée d'Angleterre. Mais je ne pense pas que les femmes, vous savez, aient été considérées comme le bon genre pour l'école de droit et les juges. La première femme juge au Canada remonte au début des années 1980, à la fin des années 1970. Il s'agit de la juge Roselie Abella, qui est devenue juge à la Cour d'appel et à la Cour suprême du Canada. Je vous ai parlé d'elle. Elle a apporté un soutien phénoménal à la justice sociale, mais elle et d'autres femmes comme elle ont fait des percées au Canada. Je pense que cela a aidé parce que si vous regardez sa carrière, en fait elle avait moins de 30 ans je pense, et elle était enceinte aussi, ce qui la rendait vraiment unique dans l'histoire du Canada. Des femmes comme elle et d'autres femmes dans la profession ont fait des percées, et cela a commencé à cette époque. Ainsi, la juge Abella, dont la carrière est incroyable, a rédigé le rapport de 1984 sur l'égalité pour tous, y compris les personnes handicapées, les personnes de couleur, etc. Je pense donc qu'à cette époque, les historiens de la culture devraient s'intéresser aux femmes qui ont fait ces progrès. C'était comme le mouvement des suffragettes. Il y avait des femmes bien connues pour avoir fait en sorte que les femmes puissent voter. À la fin des années 70, dans les années 80, mais surtout dans les années 70 lorsque nous y étions, des femmes ont fait des percées, y compris dans le corps enseignant et à d'autres postes de la société. J'ajouterais donc cela à l'ensemble des études sur le sujet, et je mettrais certainement la juge Rosalie Abella en tête de liste. Je pense qu'elles ont été une source d'inspiration pour les femmes de notre classe. C'était une source d'inspiration de voir des femmes accéder à ces postes. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, une question complémentaire : selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada au début des années 70 ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je suppose que les gens... Je veux dire que j'ai vu cette expression comme une évolution de la pensée. La femme qui a inventé cette expression, son nom m'échappe, mais elle a fini par ridiculiser la troisième vague du féminisme, etc. Il s'agissait donc d'une sorte de scission au sein du mouvement, et bien qu'elle ait tenté de mettre en place un concept d'intégration et d'égalité, elle a en fait créé beaucoup de divisions, j'ai trouvé, beaucoup de conflits. Nous ne sommes pas, vous savez, égaux et tout le reste, alors la femme qui a écrit le livre et a commencé, elle a fini par être ostracisée par le mouvement féministe parce qu'elle trouvait qu'il allait trop loin, et qu'il n'intégrait pas la pensée avec d'autres secteurs non seulement masculins, mais aussi avec d'autres secteurs de la société. Mais à l'époque, c'était ce que nous appelons la deuxième vague, nous sommes passés à la troisième vague, à la quatrième vague, puis le mouvement a été repris par un groupe... c'est ce que j'ai compris. Mais à l'époque, je me souviens qu'on appréciait que ce sujet soit pris en considération, je veux dire que je commençais à m'impliquer dans les questions de handicap et qu'il y avait beaucoup de problèmes liés à la justice. Dans le document de 1984, qui a fait date au Canada et qui a été accepté au Canada et dans d'autres pays de common law, une bonne partie des personnes défavorisées, et les femmes, étaient considérées comme faisant partie de ce groupe. Nous devons donc considérer les choses dans un contexte plus large lorsque l'on regarde l'histoire. Je pense que nous étions au début, et c'était très excitant de voir l'évolution. Amilia Matheson : Dans les années 1970, les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcées qu'aujourd'hui. En quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait-il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux des étudiants masculins dans les salles de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux ? Ernest Tannis : Malheureusement, les attentes ne concernaient pas seulement les salles de classe, mais aussi les chambres à coucher. J'ai trouvé cela très décourageant et j'ose dire que quelques femmes se sont rendues disponibles, ce qui n'a pas aidé. Je veux dire que cette partie de l'expérience n'était pas très confortable. Il y avait même, avec les personnes mariées, l'impression d'être ici, à la faculté de droit, et de ne pas être à la maison, alors je pense que cette partie du voyage humain n'a pas été respectée autant qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Je pense donc que cette partie du parcours humain n'a pas été respectée autant qu'elle aurait dû l'être. Cette partie de l'expérience de l'école de droit ne m'a pas plu, mais je suppose qu'il y a beaucoup de pression sur certaines femmes pour qu'elles fassent certaines choses et la plupart d'entre elles ont gardé leur intégrité, mais il y avait une sorte d'attente très orientée vers les hommes qui prévalait encore, je pense. C'était un défi, c'est certain, et je pense que c'est le bon vieux temps, mais à cette époque, il y avait une certaine tension autour de cela. Amilia Matheson : Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'Université d'Ottawa où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptées que d'autres ? Ernest Tannis : En fait, c'est une question très intéressante. Je dirais que ce n'est pas officiellement qu'ils n'ont pas été acceptés. Je me souviens avoir assisté à un certain nombre d'événements où l'on avait l'impression que les femmes n'étaient pas les bienvenues. Il s'agissait en quelque sorte d'un événement réservé aux hommes et, techniquement, la porte était ouverte aux femmes, mais le signal était que vous n'étiez pas les bienvenues, et je n'ai pas aimé cette partie non plus. Certaines femmes ont même essayé de s'incruster dans certains événements parce qu'elles pensaient que c'était inacceptable, ce qui a donné lieu à des soirées intéressantes. Lors d'une soirée en particulier, on a essayé de convaincre une femme de ne pas venir, et elle a dit : "Je suis membre de l'université, je vais à la dernière école. Pourquoi je ne peux pas venir ?" Et elle a menacé d'amener tout un tas de femmes s'ils ne la laissaient pas entrer. Je me souviens qu'elle était très audacieuse. Oui, ce n'était pas facile pour les femmes de l'époque. Ce n'est plus le cas aujourd'hui. Mais elles essayaient de faire des percées. Amilia Matheson : Nous sommes à mi-parcours. Nous passons à la troisième des quatre sections, qui porte sur l'idéologie et les différences générationnelles. L'affirmation principale est la suivante : les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le mouvement de la contre-culture, qui signifie que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Ma première question est donc la suivante : dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, je pense que ma première réaction serait que ce soit le premier point à l'ordre du jour, vous savez, nous sommes la nouvelle génération. Nous avons une vingtaine d'années. Nous avons beaucoup d'histoire dans nos familles, dans notre culture, dans notre pays et dans notre monde. Nous sommes à la faculté de droit. Tout cela est censé concerner l'accès à la justice, pour essayer d'aller au-delà de la légalité, de la formalité et de l'histoire de la loi et de s'intéresser à l'objectif de la loi. Ainsi, comme le dit la chanson "justice is just us", je pense que nous avons eu le sentiment que notre génération pouvait apporter sa contribution, non seulement pour enrichir le fonctionnement du système, mais aussi pour en enrichir l'âme. Nous nous sommes sentis enhardis parce que nous étions la première classe dans le Fauteux Hall, que nous étions historiques et que nous étions dans cette merveilleuse Université d'Ottawa qui a une histoire phénoménale... dont nous pouvons être fiers, et qui travaille bien avec toutes les autres universités et collèges. L'idée d'une collaboration entre les institutions académiques m'a donc inspiré, même avec les collèges et autres, et je pense que c'était une grande ambition de faire quelque chose qui permettrait au grand public de se sentir à l'aise non seulement avec le système juridique, mais aussi avec les avocats, et que nous ne sommes pas seulement la cible des plaisanteries des avocats, mais que nous avons des aspirations qui sont bénéfiques pour la société dans son ensemble... de jouer un rôle plus important en pensant à autre chose qu'à combien de Billings vous faites chaque mois et je n'ai jamais enregistré mon temps en 47 ans d'existence. Je n'ai jamais fait cela, je me suis contenté de dire : "Bon, voici ce que je pense que cela coûterait et ce que vous pouvez vous permettre". Je pense donc que c'est une bonne question. C'est en quelque sorte ce qui me vient à l'esprit. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, elles n'étaient pas seulement dépassées, elles étaient hors du monde. C'était difficile de s'identifier à cette façon de penser. C'était comme si vous ne pouviez pas croire que vous aviez été élevé par des gens qui étaient comme ça, mais vous savez, moi j'essaie de respecter mes aînés, et ils venaient tous d'une autre forme d'éducation dont nous n'avons aucune idée, et vous savez, certains d'entre eux sont musulmans, surtout au Canada, je veux dire que le Canada est une société multiculturelle, n'est-ce pas ? Comme l'a écrit un sociologue, les États-Unis sont le creuset, et nous avons au Canada un ensemble de personnes originaires du monde entier. Dans notre génération, nous étions soit la deuxième, soit la troisième, soit la quatrième, soit la cinquième génération d'immigrants. Nous n'avons donc aucune idée de ce que c'était que d'être élevé dans tous ces autres pays et de la rigidité des cultures et des règles, en particulier entre les hommes et les femmes, et puis ils arrivent dans cette société avec un ensemble de règles complètement différent, et ils essaient de se débarrasser des stéréotypes selon lesquels tout le monde est égal devant la loi. Je pense donc que, pour moi en tout cas, c'était comme si, oui, nous sommes éloignés, mais nous héritons d'une culture. Et j'ai fini par apprendre des autochtones, qui disent toujours que tout ce que nous disons, faisons et pensons affectera les sept générations suivantes. Nous sommes donc la 7e génération de personnes du passé dont nous n'avons aucune idée de ce qu'a été leur enfance. On peut juste grandir et respecter le meilleur de ce qu'ils apportent et réaliser qu'ils étaient limités, et ensuite nous allons faire la même chose pour nous qui sommes le début des sept générations suivantes. C'est ainsi que je voyais les choses, c'était une sorte d'équilibre. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens à l'époque ? Ernest Tannis : Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais été dans l'histoire. Et pas à cette époque, je veux dire que la politique est un système contradictoire qui a ses propres objectifs et agendas. Certaines personnes voulaient que je me lance dans la politique, mais je ne pouvais pas le faire, car nous avons besoin d'un système politique, c'est clair. Nous avons besoin de toutes sortes de systèmes, mais je suis en quelque sorte devenu apolitique. Même au sein des universités, et toute la politique qui s'y déroule en termes de connaissance des personnes qui se présentent aux élections, mais nous avons besoin d'un système pour créer une interaction entre les différentes parties prenantes. J'ai donc respecté cela, et beaucoup d'entre eux l'ont fait pour des raisons très sincères. Certains l'ont fait pour d'autres raisons, mais Dieu seul connaît les intentions des gens, mais j'ai eu le sentiment que la politique, non seulement dans la société en général, mais aussi à l'université, était vraiment difficile à comprendre parce que les différents agendas, même ceux des professeurs et des autres acteurs de l'université, avaient tous leurs propres ambitions, ce qui a une incidence sur votre vie. Cela affecte la façon dont vous étudiez, la façon dont vous obtenez votre diplôme, la façon dont vous vous en sortez. Je sais que dans un cours, j'ai dit quelque chose qui était censé être drôle, mais qui a provoqué des bouleversements politiques, et le professeur était très en colère contre moi. Et j'ai obtenu mon diplôme avec Cum Laude, la seule raison pour laquelle je n'ai pas obtenu Magna Cum Laude, c'est que ce professeur m'a donné une note inférieure à 70. Pour obtenir un Magna Cum Laude, il faut avoir une moyenne de... 75, 80 sans note inférieure à 70. Il m'a donné 69, mais c'était parce qu'il n'avait pas apprécié un commentaire que j'avais fait. J'ai donc découvert que même à ce niveau, la politique affectait le jugement équitable des gens et que si vous n'étiez pas politiquement correct, vous en subissiez les conséquences, comme je l'ai fait avec ce professeur qui s'est finalement excusé plus tard, mais cela n'avait pas d'importance, c'était juste de la compréhension. Je lui ai dit : "Vous aviez votre position politique, mais pourquoi l'avoir introduite dans le cours de droit ?". J'avais une question très valable... Je ne vais pas vous ennuyer avec la question, mais c'était une question valable. Même si, comme je le fais toujours, je l'ai placée dans un contexte assez drôle, il s'agissait d'une question. Je ne pense donc pas qu'il s'agisse uniquement de politique dans la société, je pense qu'il faut se pencher sur la politique dans les universités. Amilia Matheson : Très bien, donc... nous en sommes à la dernière section, qui porte sur les relations amoureuses. Ernest Tannis : Pardon, sur quoi ? Amilia Matheson : Les relations amoureuses. Ernest Tannis : Les relations amoureuses... D-A-T-I-N-G ? Amilia Matheson : Ah oui ! Ernest Tannis : Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Amilia Matheson : Nous allons le présenter. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les fréquentations au début des années 70. Ma première question est donc la suivante : êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? Ernest Tannis : Rétrospectivement, je suis d'accord, j'étais marié à l'époque et j'allais à l'école de droit, croyez-le ou non, je veux dire que c'était un mariage très jeune, et ma femme prenait la pilule contraceptive. Ses parents n'étaient pas d'accord. Son père était pasteur et il y avait une sorte de conflit à ce sujet. Cette génération était donc en conflit, je pense à la génération des parents, surtout s'ils sont religieux. C'était donc un problème, et je ne sais pas si elle l'a vraiment fait, car mon fils est né en deuxième année de droit. J'étais donc père pendant mes études de droit et nous vivions dans une autre ville, et je devais faire des allers-retours le week-end. L'avortement n'est pas quelque chose que je, vous savez, sauf en cas de viol ou de santé de la mère, ce genre de choses, mais si la pilule ne marche pas, vous pouvez avorter, pour moi, ce n'est pas spirituellement cohérent avec qui que ce soit, vous savez, chacun suit ses propres règles. C'était déjà le cas. Je pense donc que cela a augmenté la promiscuité d'une manière très malsaine, et je pense que cela a imprégné les étudiants universitaires... ce groupe d'âge à cette époque... pas pour le bien. Cela a créé beaucoup de problèmes avec lesquels nous vivons probablement encore aujourd'hui, mais les gens doivent maintenant trouver un autre type de communauté pour éviter tout cela. Je pense que c'était une sorte d'excitation de briser les vieilles règles et d'avoir la liberté de faire ce que l'on veut, comme dans ce film célèbre où la fille adulte faisait ceci et cela... c'était le nom de ce film... et elle disait "tu es libre" et le père disait "oui, tu es libre de faire ceci, tu es libre de faire cela. Tu es libre de faire ça. Tout le sexe, les drogues, et le rock'n'roll" et puis il dit, "et tu es libre d'aller en enfer." Je pense que ce film a donné le ton du conflit générationnel. Le nom de ce film m'échappe, mais il correspondait parfaitement à votre question. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70 ? Ernest Tannis : Je n'étais qu'un observateur parce que je n'ai jamais rien eu avant le mariage. Je n'étais pas impliqué dans ces choses, alors je ne suis pas la bonne personne pour poser des questions à ce sujet. Mais j'ai vu que cela se passait assez souvent, et puis, vous savez, un mois quelqu'un sort avec quelqu'un et puis il sort avec quelqu'un d'autre qui est comme, comment dire, quel est le bon mot... c'était comme une orgie sociale, vous savez. Il ne semblait pas y avoir les mêmes règles que celles dont on entend parler ou que l'on apprend. C'était presque le début d'une liberté pour tous, ce que je ne pouvais pas comprendre, mais beaucoup de gens se sont engagés dans cette voie. J'étais donc plus un observateur et il y a eu... Je pense qu'il y a eu quelques fois, à l'époque des cours de droit et de tout le reste, et du stage, quelques événements qui m'ont déplu... rien qui n'ait causé de danger, mais c'était contraire à mes principes. Mais c'était comme un groupe... c'est devenu comme un truc de groupe. Je pense que beaucoup de gens ont accepté des choses dont ils savaient probablement que ce n'était pas une bonne idée, mais il semblait que c'était ce qui se passait et qu'il fallait se connecter... J'ai donc trouvé cela inconfortable. Amilia Matheson : Comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : Je pense que c'était au début que la plupart des gens ne s'intéressaient pas à la famille et au mariage, vous savez, je ne pense pas. Il y avait des étudiants dans notre classe qui étaient déjà mariés et qui avaient même des enfants, mais dans l'ensemble, je pense que la famille et le mariage étaient les choses les plus éloignées de l'esprit de tout le monde. C'était comme si c'était la génération où chacun allait se faire sa propre place, être professionnel, avoir une carrière... les priorités n'étaient pas du tout les mêmes qu'autrefois. Même s'il n'y avait que quelques femmes, il y en avait encore... et cela s'est développé au fil des ans, encore plus à la faculté de droit, puis l'année suivante, et l'année suivante. Avant notre départ, il y avait plus de femmes chaque année, mais je pense que les priorités étaient plus en termes de ce que l'on peut faire de sa propre vie et il n'y avait pas beaucoup de discussions sur la nécessité de se marier et, vous savez, les rencontres étaient... parfois les gens étaient engagés dans une certaine rencontre, mais ce n'était pas nécessairement le cas. Je ne pense pas que cette idée ait prévalu à l'époque... l'idée de la famille, du mariage, etc. Et c'était vraiment, vous savez, vous vous mettez dans la position où c'est très cher d'aller à l'université. Certains d'entre nous ont obtenu des prêts étudiants, contrairement à d'autres de leur classe dont les parents étaient riches. Je n'ai pas reçu un centime de mon père. J'ai dû démissionner pendant un an parce qu'il n'y avait pas d'argent. C'était vraiment... et j'ai été la première personne de ma famille à aller dans un établissement d'enseignement supérieur. J'ai été la première à aller à l'université. Donc, vous savez, vous vous concentrez vraiment... l'objectif était juste d'être admis, de s'en sortir, d'obtenir un diplôme. Alors je ne pense pas que ces... pour moi c'était un peu trop tard parce que j'avais déjà un fils, puis nous avons eu une fille, et maintenant ils ont leurs propres enfants et c'est merveilleux... ils se débrouillent tous bien. Amilia Matheson : C'est génial. Nous en sommes à la dernière question, qui est la suivante : dans quelle mesure les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient-ils de la culture des rencontres et des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, mon impression générale est que la génération précédente a abandonné la génération suivante. Elle ne voyait plus de limites, ni de principes généraux d'une certaine culture à respecter. Dans certaines cultures, on a toujours imposé aux femmes d'être d'une certaine manière ou de faire certaines choses, et ces cultures existent toujours, mais à l'époque, je pense... Je ne suis pas sûr de répondre à votre question aussi bien que je le devrais. J'essaie juste de réfléchir. Vous voulez répéter la question ? Peut-être que quelque chose d'autre me viendra. Amilia Matheson : Bien sûr. Dans quelle mesure les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient-ils de cette culture des rencontres que vous avez décrite et des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Ernest Tannis : D'accord, cela me revient maintenant que je l'ai entendu à nouveau. Ils ne s'inquiétaient pas... ils nous ont abandonnés. C'était la liberté pour tous, et je pense que cela a consterné certains membres de la génération précédente, mais ils se sont dit que le monde était ainsi fait et qu'ils ne pouvaient rien y faire. Il y a eu des conflits entre les générations et des conséquences assez graves, et dans certaines cultures, certaines femmes ont été tuées pour s'être écartées de la norme. Et il y avait d'autres conséquences pour d'autres personnes, donc il y avait beaucoup d'effets secondaires négatifs, mais je pense que ce que j'ai dit... je pense que ce n'était pas... ils ont simplement abandonné la génération suivante et ils ont dû laisser tomber. Amilia Matheson : D'accord, c'était ma dernière question formelle. Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter avant que j'arrête l'enregistrement à propos de votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa lorsque vous y étiez étudiant ? Ernest Tannis : Eh bien, dernièrement, on m'a demandé de faire une présentation sur la gratitude et c'est un mot magnifique. C'est un mot très biblique, très spirituel, mais aussi très pratique, et je pense que nous devrions tous être reconnaissants d'avoir eu la chance, dans cette partie du monde, de bénéficier d'une telle éducation. D'avoir des professeurs, des doyens et des administrateurs dévoués qui veulent que nous réussissions et qui ont créé un environnement sûr pour que nous puissions faire de notre mieux dans la vie. Je pense donc qu'il est très important que tous les anciens étudiants expriment leur gratitude à tous ceux qui ont permis à l'université de fonctionner à bien des égards et qui le font encore aujourd'hui. Même la génération actuelle de doyens et de professeurs, et d'être... et les écoles de droit sont considérées par beaucoup de gens comme n'étant toujours pas à jour avec l'adaptation complète aux nouvelles façons de résoudre les problèmes, je veux dire que les avocats et la profession juridique vont devenir les mêmes, car l'IA va prendre en charge beaucoup de choses. L'ancien juge en chef de la Cour d'appel du Québec, qui a participé à un panel il y a quatre ans, a déclaré : " publiquement, j'abandonne les facultés de droit ". Il y a tellement de choses qui se passent sur le terrain dans la pratique et qui ne sont pas nécessairement enseignées dans les facultés de droit comme elles devraient l'être, et une partie de ma quête au cours des deux ou trois dernières décennies et encore aujourd'hui est d'essayer de contribuer à l'amélioration de cette situation. Je pense donc que la gratitude est le thème qui devrait prévaloir chez tous les anciens étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa, y compris au sein du département de common law. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tannis, Ernest (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the early 1970s, including the social culture, the female experience, and generational ideology. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Relation A related resource "Interview with Ernest Tannis (Part 1)." Life on Campus. October 24, 2023. Video,<br />https://youtu.be/D-W-UjIp0O8?si=RgHMsLn6Rp-orTnr. "Interview with Ernest Tannis (Part 2)." Life on Campus. October 24, 2023. Video,<br />https://youtu.be/44EWjYoOAIg?si=b1I6-Ph9N40Y7gCV. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 32 minutes, 25 seconds (part 1); 13 minutes, 18 seconds (part 2) Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Counter culture Dating Drugs Gender Generational ideology Second wave feminism Sex Social life uOttawa Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Catholic grade schools Immaculata High School University of Ottawa Degree BA Career professional Occupation Nurse Ethnicity Swiss Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Paradis, Philippe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Palmer, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis So for the first question, cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa has a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis So the first question would be there were less electronics in Canada in the 70s. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Like none. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis So how was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 70s? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Well, we went to the pub after school. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer I'm sure they still do that now, but there was. 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer We went to my father, used to laugh. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer We went to the library every night and after the library closed that cause I was studying nursing. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer So we were at the medical library, we would go to the the Albion, which I don't think is there anymore. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer It's gone and probably went there almost every night. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer There were dances, there were. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer We ran the School of Nursing on. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.140 Liz Palmer We were in the and at that point we were at the building where engineering is now. 0:1:44.750 --> 0:1:50.940 Liz Palmer Which is probably an old building to you, but for us it was brand new and every Friday we ran a pub. 0:1:51.530 --> 0:1:56.410 Liz Palmer One week it was by nursing and the other week it was by the engineering students. 0:1:57.150 --> 0:2:3.220 Liz Palmer So there were lots of pubs, parties, lots of get togethers. 0:2:3.750 --> 0:2:7.180 Liz Palmer Umm, that kind of thing. 0:2:7.190 --> 0:2:9.700 Liz Palmer And there was some art groups. 0:2:10.230 --> 0:2:12.800 Liz Palmer There were readings. 0:2:13.470 --> 0:2:14.230 Liz Palmer There were. 0:2:16.730 --> 0:2:18.0 Liz Palmer Poetry readings auto. 0:2:18.10 --> 0:2:21.770 Liz Palmer You had a lot of that kind of stuff and they used to go to all those sorts of things, yeah. 0:2:22.820 --> 0:2:25.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So like a lot of obviously in person activities. 0:2:25.250 --> 0:2:27.100 Liz Palmer All it was all in person. 0:2:32.10 --> 0:2:36.980 Philippe Alain Paradis And so you mentioned pubs, so that sort of answers the question. 0:2:36.990 --> 0:2:40.260 Philippe Alain Paradis What we're the most popular hangout spots on and off campus. 0:2:41.770 --> 0:2:51.420 Liz Palmer It would be the Albion for us and and then the pub that we ran, the weekly pub that ran at the at the at the build. 0:2:51.430 --> 0:2:54.860 Liz Palmer I forget what the name of the building is now, but it was it's. 0:2:55.70 --> 0:2:56.620 Liz Palmer It's the engineering building now. 0:2:56.710 --> 0:3:2.300 Liz Palmer They had a big common room there and that's that's that was every Friday night through the through the whole year. 0:3:3.520 --> 0:3:3.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Nice. 0:3:4.620 --> 0:3:7.750 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you attend any live music events during the university years? 0:3:8.990 --> 0:3:12.100 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, a lot of those things that we went to had live bands. 0:3:13.300 --> 0:3:17.10 Liz Palmer Some of them had DJ's, umm. 0:3:17.210 --> 0:3:18.920 Liz Palmer There was no rap in those days. 0:3:18.930 --> 0:3:23.790 Liz Palmer Everything was disco in the 70s, so yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:3:25.380 --> 0:3:32.280 Liz Palmer Ohh, looky, Looky Boo was a big deal on Sussex and it was alternative music at the time. 0:3:33.170 --> 0:3:37.720 Liz Palmer Umm, it would have been folk music, different things like that. 0:3:38.590 --> 0:3:42.470 Liz Palmer Different groups would have come into that smaller area. 0:3:42.840 --> 0:3:44.620 Liz Palmer Bruce Coburn in different people like that. 0:3:45.650 --> 0:3:47.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Were there a lot of rock bands back then? 0:3:47.970 --> 0:3:49.120 Philippe Alain Paradis At these places. 0:3:49.100 --> 0:3:51.710 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, there were some that wasn't really. 0:3:51.720 --> 0:3:54.80 Liz Palmer I I liked a lot of different music but. 0:3:56.250 --> 0:4:3.770 Liz Palmer Trying to think of there were quite a number of Ottawa that five man electrical band I think was one of them. 0:4:5.140 --> 0:4:7.340 Philippe Alain Paradis So disco is the big one. 0:4:7.840 --> 0:4:10.30 Liz Palmer Disco was the big thing at that time. 0:4:10.40 --> 0:4:18.40 Liz Palmer Probably more into the mid 70s, but I started in started Ottawa U. 0:4:18.50 --> 0:4:21.420 Liz Palmer Guess it was September of 1970, yeah. 0:4:26.990 --> 0:4:29.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa said earlier auto you auto was the bilingual institution. 0:4:30.370 --> 0:4:34.0 Philippe Alain Paradis How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? 0:4:39.700 --> 0:4:40.640 Liz Palmer Yep, Yep. 0:4:34.10 --> 0:4:40.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? Yeah. 0:4:41.860 --> 0:4:43.550 Liz Palmer I wasn't a big club person. 0:4:44.310 --> 0:4:46.980 Liz Palmer The nursing program was very busy. 0:4:48.510 --> 0:4:50.930 Liz Palmer We had lots of classes in. 0:4:50.940 --> 0:4:53.320 Liz Palmer Mike was interesting in my class Ottawa. 0:4:53.330 --> 0:5:1.930 Liz Palmer You the first year there were, I would say, 120 students, 130 students maybe. 0:5:1.940 --> 0:5:2.590 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:5:2.680 --> 0:5:6.440 Liz Palmer They seem to be a lot out, I'd say more than half of them were French speaking. 0:5:7.260 --> 0:5:11.430 Liz Palmer They had very little, if any, English. 0:5:11.580 --> 0:5:13.670 Liz Palmer Most of them came to Ottawa. 0:5:13.680 --> 0:5:17.550 Liz Palmer Because they were told they could take their course in French. 0:5:18.120 --> 0:5:25.600 Liz Palmer However, the nursing program at that time was very new in on Canada and especially on Ontario. 0:5:25.870 --> 0:5:30.910 Liz Palmer So they're all the teachers came from the US or had been trained in the US so they all spoke English. 0:5:31.640 --> 0:5:37.730 Liz Palmer So all the nursing programs were done in English, but they could do all their other classes in French. 0:5:38.260 --> 0:5:45.630 Liz Palmer So we lost, I would say at least 1/3 of the students after first year because they couldn't, they couldn't. 0:5:46.220 --> 0:5:52.870 Liz Palmer They weren't good enough in English to to pass to sit through the classes, so I don't know where they went. 0:5:52.880 --> 0:5:57.330 Liz Palmer They may have gone to to Montreal or to Sherbrooke, or I don't know where they went. 0:5:58.110 --> 0:6:2.320 Liz Palmer But the English, the nursing program was only offered in English. 0:6:2.330 --> 0:6:5.170 Liz Palmer I'm I'm not sure, but I think it still is even to this day. 0:6:6.400 --> 0:6:7.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Huh, that's interesting. 0:6:9.30 --> 0:6:10.590 Philippe Alain Paradis They were really just French. 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:12.60 Philippe Alain Paradis There weren't as many bilingual people? 0:6:12.660 --> 0:6:21.160 Liz Palmer Well, the bilingual students were fine, but there were a large number of French only students, and they came from all over Quebec. 0:6:21.420 --> 0:6:24.830 Liz Palmer Small a lot of them came from small towns, northern Ontario. 0:6:25.820 --> 0:6:29.500 Liz Palmer Some of them came from New Brunswick and and they only spoke French. 0:6:30.650 --> 0:6:35.460 Liz Palmer So, but anyone who was bilingual and and had enough English. 0:6:35.940 --> 0:6:36.290 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:6:36.300 --> 0:6:44.240 Liz Palmer A number of my friends were French Canadian and they but they were bilingual and they had enough of English that they could. 0:6:44.250 --> 0:6:51.120 Liz Palmer They could handle the course load, so that was fine, but if you were totally French, it was very difficult. 0:6:53.60 --> 0:7:1.240 Philippe Alain Paradis You might not know this cause it's like a really specific question, but do you have any information on if anglophones and francophones dated each other during the 1970s? 0:7:1.710 --> 0:7:2.820 Liz Palmer Oh, absolutely. 0:7:3.300 --> 0:7:3.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:7:3.210 --> 0:7:4.330 Liz Palmer Absolutely. Sure. 0:7:5.100 --> 0:7:5.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:7:7.70 --> 0:7:7.730 Liz Palmer Why wouldn't we? 0:7:6.270 --> 0:7:8.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, so we use the term alright. 0:7:10.940 --> 0:7:13.350 Philippe Alain Paradis I mean, I guess like the language barrier with a lot of them, right? 0:7:13.360 --> 0:7:15.580 Philippe Alain Paradis If they if they just spoke French, they. 0:7:16.270 --> 0:7:19.400 Liz Palmer Most I'll tell you, most French people speak some English. 0:7:19.870 --> 0:7:22.330 Liz Palmer Most English people don't speak very much French. 0:7:24.810 --> 0:7:25.800 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:7:23.370 --> 0:7:26.330 Philippe Alain Paradis I've I've found that to be true as well, yeah. 0:7:25.870 --> 0:7:35.910 Liz Palmer And I spoke, I I grew up in a Ottawa in a in a real working class neighborhood and I would say more than 50% of the people in my neighborhood spoke French. 0:7:39.70 --> 0:7:39.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:7:35.920 --> 0:7:39.900 Liz Palmer So I could speak French to A to some degree, yeah. 0:7:40.50 --> 0:7:40.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:7:40.730 --> 0:7:45.920 Philippe Alain Paradis So we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. 0:7:46.160 --> 0:7:50.910 Philippe Alain Paradis How do you describe the party culture on the University Ottawa campus during 70s? 0:7:52.480 --> 0:7:53.0 Liz Palmer Vibrant. 0:7:56.820 --> 0:7:57.470 Liz Palmer It was. 0:7:57.880 --> 0:8:0.230 Liz Palmer It was very active and it was great. 0:8:0.240 --> 0:8:0.600 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:8:0.660 --> 0:8:2.20 Liz Palmer Yeah, we had a lot of parties. 0:8:2.30 --> 0:8:5.530 Liz Palmer We I remember everything was face to face. 0:8:5.540 --> 0:8:7.360 Liz Palmer There was no virtual stuff. 0:8:7.670 --> 0:8:10.360 Liz Palmer Computers didn't really exist. 0:8:10.450 --> 0:8:12.10 Liz Palmer I had a friend who was in. 0:8:14.30 --> 0:8:19.870 Liz Palmer Uh, in computer math at in Kitchener. 0:8:19.880 --> 0:8:21.420 Liz Palmer Waterloo at Waterloo. 0:8:21.430 --> 0:8:23.590 Liz Palmer You and she. 0:8:24.710 --> 0:8:31.60 Liz Palmer I would go down to visit her and I would go into would go in at 2:00, o'clock in the morning to play, quote, unquote play on the computer. 0:8:31.70 --> 0:8:34.270 Liz Palmer And the computer was the size of a of a huge room, right? 0:8:35.80 --> 0:8:42.240 Liz Palmer So computers, that's the that's that was probably 7273 somewhere in there. 0:8:42.330 --> 0:8:48.900 Liz Palmer So at that point, there were no tabletop computers or anything that you could that you could easily use. 0:8:49.50 --> 0:8:52.460 Liz Palmer There were no phones like cell phones or anything like that. 0:8:52.470 --> 0:9:4.90 Liz Palmer So yeah, the whole culture was, uh, face to face party, music, dancing, you know, different things like that. So. 0:9:5.20 --> 0:9:5.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:9:5.370 --> 0:9:7.390 Philippe Alain Paradis You really had to like if you want to have fun. 0:9:12.540 --> 0:9:13.250 Liz Palmer Well, it was. 0:9:7.400 --> 0:9:13.300 Philippe Alain Paradis You really have to like set up events and stuff that there wasn't as much digital stuff you want or any digital stuff you could do, yeah. 0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:15.590 Liz Palmer It was normal to set stuff up. 0:9:16.270 --> 0:9:16.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:9:15.600 --> 0:9:22.270 Liz Palmer I mean, whether you go down to the market, the market was a place that you could go to, but it wasn't the way it is now. 0:9:22.780 --> 0:9:28.170 Liz Palmer Leibu was on Sussex and then there were a couple of other coffee houses in the city, but. 0:9:30.360 --> 0:9:36.650 Liz Palmer If you wanted to meet people, you had to go out and and it was just you. 0:9:36.660 --> 0:9:38.410 Liz Palmer Just everybody just went out all the time. 0:9:38.420 --> 0:9:43.110 Liz Palmer It was none of this, like, you know, covid's really put a damper on a whole lot of stuff. 0:9:43.120 --> 0:9:45.860 Liz Palmer So life was very, very different. 0:9:46.820 --> 0:9:47.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:9:47.240 --> 0:9:51.430 Philippe Alain Paradis Today, if you want to go to a party, you like have to seek it out pretty intensely. 0:9:52.580 --> 0:9:53.490 Liz Palmer Yeah, I. 0:9:51.440 --> 0:9:55.980 Philippe Alain Paradis I find like the you have to, you have to really look for it. Umm. 0:9:56.40 --> 0:10:1.650 Liz Palmer So yeah, the and the girls that lived in the I lived at home, I say half the class. 0:10:1.660 --> 0:10:4.350 Liz Palmer The My class still lived at home in Ottawa. 0:10:4.800 --> 0:10:11.290 Liz Palmer A few were from outside the city and a number of people lived, you know, on on campus. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.830 Liz Palmer And there were campus. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.320 Liz Palmer There were parties, you know, and on campus as well. 0:10:17.810 --> 0:10:21.70 Liz Palmer And there was, I think there were. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:31.540 Liz Palmer Not that I went there very often, but there were small little cafes all around the university and you could go there and just drink. 0:10:31.630 --> 0:10:35.180 Liz Palmer They didn't have booze or anything, but you go drink coffee and meet your friends and stuff. 0:10:35.190 --> 0:10:37.60 Liz Palmer And there were a number of those places around. 0:10:37.810 --> 0:10:40.60 Liz Palmer There were couple on on Laurie. 0:10:40.70 --> 0:10:48.300 Liz Palmer There was a coffee, quote unquote coffee house at the university, but it was kind of more like a, you know, a great big open area. 0:10:48.310 --> 0:10:53.240 Liz Palmer It wasn't very intimate or small or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:57.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:10:54.930 --> 0:11:0.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Total like 180 from that what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:11:2.320 --> 0:11:3.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like the general sentiment. 0:11:6.390 --> 0:11:7.410 Liz Palmer Pretty much over by then. 0:11:8.340 --> 0:11:8.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.750 Liz Palmer It was in my life. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.90 Liz Palmer It wasn't a huge deal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.480 Liz Palmer The bigger deal, because I was at school during the October crisis. 0:11:18.620 --> 0:11:18.810 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:11:18.740 --> 0:11:19.50 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:11:18.820 --> 0:11:19.770 Liz Palmer With the FLQ. 0:11:19.780 --> 0:11:25.880 Liz Palmer So when I was walking up to school, there were soldiers in the streets and there were tanks in the streets. 0:11:26.860 --> 0:11:39.100 Liz Palmer And that was interesting, I mean, but it just was there, I mean those things you know, if there's, you know you're walking up to school one day cause I lived in new Edinburgh and I would walk up to Ottawa. 0:11:39.110 --> 0:11:51.990 Liz Palmer You where I take the bus and all of a sudden there were tanks in the streets and there were and they because Ottawa U was a French university, quote unquote. It was. 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:54.180 Liz Palmer It was classified as a French university. 0:11:55.590 --> 0:11:57.860 Liz Palmer They had a lot of soldiers and stuff around there. 0:11:57.870 --> 0:12:4.810 Liz Palmer Nothing ever happened, but it because of the FLQ crisis and everything that happened after that, there was a lot of. 0:12:7.360 --> 0:12:12.770 Liz Palmer I guess there was a lot of people watching to make sure nothing else would happen, but I never saw anything happened. 0:12:12.780 --> 0:12:19.900 Liz Palmer I just remember walking up and seeing this and being thinking ohh, but I wasn't terribly politically involved at that point. 0:12:26.910 --> 0:12:28.470 Liz Palmer Exactly, yeah. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:34.420 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, that, that reminds me a little bit of my first year when I am I could hear like the trucker convoy honking like it's it's just kind of jarring to know that there's like a large group of people that in, like, tensions are really high. 0:12:34.490 --> 0:12:34.690 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that must have been something to witness. 0:12:36.970 --> 0:12:42.240 Liz Palmer It it it was, it was quite something that we never seen anything like that before, right? 0:12:42.250 --> 0:12:50.30 Liz Palmer And but there was no like, I mean there my parents would say, well, I I tell them what happened and they say, oh, well, just stay out of the neighborhood or walk around it. 0:12:50.40 --> 0:12:56.520 Liz Palmer And nobody had little fits about, you know, all the oh, my God, my kids gonna get killed or something. 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:57.120 Liz Palmer It was nothing. 0:13:1.260 --> 0:13:1.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:12:58.180 --> 0:13:2.370 Liz Palmer I guess people just didn't realize what could have happened if something had happened. 0:13:2.380 --> 0:13:4.600 Liz Palmer You know, I don't know, but. 0:13:4.700 --> 0:13:13.510 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, it's interesting that people weren't as well, like, at least some people weren't as interested in the Vietnam War cause the way like I was taught it, it was such like a contentious thing. 0:13:13.740 --> 0:13:16.840 Philippe Alain Paradis But I guess by the 70s it was, it was mostly done with. 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:18.800 Liz Palmer It was contentious in the states. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:13:19.50 --> 0:13:21.330 Liz Palmer There were in Canada. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.890 Liz Palmer There were. 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:39.810 Liz Palmer There was a woman in my class whose husband was a deserter or a conscientious objector or deserter, according to whichever side you were on and and she and she and her husband moved up from the States and she was quite a bit older. 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:49.550 Liz Palmer She was probably in her mid mid 20s and she had a child at that point, so they came up ohm because of that and that was always interesting. 0:13:49.560 --> 0:13:49.920 Liz Palmer You talked? 0:13:49.930 --> 0:13:53.260 Liz Palmer Or kept in touch with her for years and years after. 0:13:53.430 --> 0:13:54.420 Liz Palmer But they never went back. 0:13:55.430 --> 0:14:0.920 Liz Palmer They stayed in Canada that they liked it and they didn't want their son to end up going through what they had gone through. 0:14:0.930 --> 0:14:3.980 Liz Palmer But I mean, it was in the news all the time and whatever. 0:14:3.990 --> 0:14:10.780 Liz Palmer But it was just part of it's, you know, part of the regular news news reports. 0:14:11.710 --> 0:14:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm so rock'n'roll artists and the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:33.840 Liz Palmer Thanking care one way or the other, my parents were from Switzerland, so they were first generate like they were. 0:14:34.70 --> 0:14:43.0 Liz Palmer They both came in the late 40s and had every intention of moving back to Switzerland, but then somehow with four kids, it didn't happen. 0:14:43.370 --> 0:14:44.270 Liz Palmer So they were really. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:46.890 Liz Palmer Music. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.330 Liz Palmer Yeah, rock'n'roll was just a type of music for them. 0:14:49.340 --> 0:14:52.360 Liz Palmer They didn't particularly like it, but we didn't. 0:14:52.510 --> 0:14:59.790 Liz Palmer I didn't really start listening to the radio till I was about 12 years old, maybe 12 or 13 or so. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:8.880 Liz Palmer That would have been what, 6465, somewhere like that, as I really didn't know much about the music at all. 0:15:8.890 --> 0:15:10.360 Liz Palmer And I was the oldest of four. 0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:15.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:15:10.370 --> 0:15:15.700 Liz Palmer So U the others followed whatever they wanted to. 0:15:17.430 --> 0:15:20.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So they were kind of just indifferent about it, uh. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.220 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:15:22.70 --> 0:15:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Uh, so some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.20 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 70s? 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:34.330 Liz Palmer Not quite available. 0:15:33.470 --> 0:15:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis If you know, yeah. 0:15:34.620 --> 0:15:35.990 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were quite available. 0:15:36.380 --> 0:15:37.290 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were. 0:15:37.300 --> 0:15:43.510 Liz Palmer There was always somebody you could always buy something you always knew there was somebody around who could get stuff for you. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:47.450 Liz Palmer Never did anything for me, just made me feel sick. 0:15:47.460 --> 0:15:48.900 Liz Palmer So I never did much of it. 0:15:49.550 --> 0:15:51.370 Liz Palmer Umm so it's. 0:15:53.820 --> 0:15:57.270 Liz Palmer And we were so busy with other things that we didn't have time for that. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:7.700 Liz Palmer I mean, you know when when you're doing a nursing program, you went to school five days a week and then, but then you had to do, we had to be in the hospital 3 mornings a week. 0:16:7.710 --> 0:16:11.370 Liz Palmer So you didn't have time to, you didn't have time for any of that nonsense. 0:16:11.380 --> 0:16:18.810 Liz Palmer And we were all older and most of us, well, certainly me didn't have any access to it. 0:16:18.820 --> 0:16:24.30 Liz Palmer I went to a Catholic girls high school, so it was pretty strict and my family was very strict. 0:16:24.140 --> 0:16:26.930 Liz Palmer So I never really had got into this. 0:16:34.80 --> 0:16:34.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:29.0 --> 0:16:37.130 Liz Palmer Probably until I got to university, but and it was never a big deal for me or my friends, yeah. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Today it's pretty common like today, it's pretty common. 0:16:37.780 --> 0:16:41.430 Philippe Alain Paradis You'll see, like I'll be in the parking lot and I'll see someone smoking something a little funny. 0:16:42.110 --> 0:16:42.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.970 Philippe Alain Paradis And and you know it's it's very it was it open like that back then like it was just or well a more secretive. 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.840 Liz Palmer No, no, because it it was far more secretive. 0:16:49.850 --> 0:17:1.830 Liz Palmer I mean, I mean, the best thing was, is I remember we go to parties and there were brownies and I love brownies, so I would eat these brownies and and feel really weird after that. 0:17:1.840 --> 0:17:4.160 Liz Palmer And then somebody would say how many did you have? 0:17:4.170 --> 0:17:9.790 Liz Palmer And I say I had two or three and I said, Oh my God, you better go home or go sit in the corner and fall asleep. 0:17:9.800 --> 0:17:11.730 Liz Palmer So that's all it ever did and made me sleep. 0:17:11.740 --> 0:17:21.460 Liz Palmer So I was no fun at a party if they if if there were any drugs like that around it, it just wasn't something I wanted to waste my time or my money on. 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:22.610 Liz Palmer I didn't have any money either. 0:17:22.620 --> 0:17:24.770 Liz Palmer So you know that was the other thing too. 0:17:24.0 --> 0:17:26.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, not super appealing. 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:27.590 Liz Palmer No. 0:17:29.260 --> 0:17:38.930 Philippe Alain Paradis And the 19 in the 1970s see a lot of talk about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach like a higher state of consciousness. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you know like to what extent people use Hallucinogenics specifically? 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:46.950 Liz Palmer Not many people I knew. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 Liz Palmer We just, we all just figured it was stupid to do that. 0:17:50.700 --> 0:17:50.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Fair. 0:17:50.620 --> 0:17:52.610 Liz Palmer So why would you want to do that to yourself? 0:17:53.460 --> 0:17:53.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:17:53.780 --> 0:17:58.590 Liz Palmer Like we, we were not umm, we're very practical. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:1.60 Liz Palmer Down to Earth people, I don't know that it was just not. 0:18:2.680 --> 0:18:17.180 Liz Palmer I mean, I guess also because we were in nursing in medicine, we would see the results of some of this and it was very you know when we're doing mental health, there were a lot of people at the royal at that time who had tripped badly and there was no way I was gonna do any of that stuff. 0:18:18.170 --> 0:18:18.880 Philippe Alain Paradis That's interesting. 0:18:18.890 --> 0:18:23.230 Philippe Alain Paradis You actually got to see like the the bad results from that. Umm. 0:18:23.20 --> 0:18:23.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:34.910 Liz Palmer And if some of them were pretty awful, I mean that that was, I think the thing being in medicine or nursing or anything is that you you saw the result of bad medicine or bad tripping or bad drugs or whatever it was. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.540 Liz Palmer And you know, it was not pleasant. 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.100 Liz Palmer And and again we weren't. 0:18:39.90 --> 0:18:40.220 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you get a lot of those? 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.580 Liz Palmer There were some. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.70 Liz Palmer You know, we surgeries that went bad. 0:18:48.80 --> 0:19:4.610 Liz Palmer Uh, I saw a 12 year old have a baby and decided that point that maybe you know that having an abortion was not a bad thing, got into a lot of our angry discussions with my own parents who are fiercely Catholic and whatever. 0:19:4.620 --> 0:19:15.350 Liz Palmer And at that point, I left the church, and because there's no way that I could ever condone a 12 year old having a baby because that was, you know, she was my she was my client. 0:19:15.360 --> 0:19:20.280 Liz Palmer And I'm thinking, Holy God, you know, that's just not a way for anybody to start their life. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Nope. 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:22.540 Liz Palmer No. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, alright, so this one. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:30.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:43.250 Philippe Alain Paradis Will this next section will focus more on the female experience, so cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.80 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:49.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:54.310 --> 0:19:54.820 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:59.800 Liz Palmer I mean, there was we, we read all the the books and we, you know, we followed all that sort of stuff. 0:20:0.810 --> 0:20:2.530 Liz Palmer Probably more so than the war in Vietnam. 0:20:5.830 --> 0:20:14.760 Liz Palmer But everything was changing at that time, so it was very different from probably people have been at university in the 60s like. 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:25.730 Liz Palmer I mean, if you if you would talk to someone who was university in the 60s, if you'd get it very different viewpoint, I think umm, it was accepted that women would work. 0:20:26.740 --> 0:20:30.360 Liz Palmer It was accepted that, you know, women would get equal pay. 0:20:32.70 --> 0:20:33.130 Liz Palmer Uh, of course. 0:20:33.140 --> 0:20:36.170 Liz Palmer At that point, everybody is saying, oh, yes, yes, yes, that's the way it is. 0:20:36.180 --> 0:20:42.380 Liz Palmer And it wasn't till 20 years later that we realized that women were being paid less for the same jobs. 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:42.980 Liz Palmer Right. 0:20:43.580 --> 0:20:43.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:20:43.860 --> 0:20:44.580 Philippe Alain Paradis They're wage gap. 0:20:43.90 --> 0:20:44.860 Liz Palmer But that had yet to come. 0:20:45.130 --> 0:20:45.530 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:20:45.590 --> 0:20:51.360 Liz Palmer So the so the possibilities were there, everybody looked forward to things changing. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.560 Liz Palmer You know the burn, your bra thing that was there were a lot of went to a lot of those sorts of rallies and things like that. 0:21:0.580 --> 0:21:6.130 Liz Palmer Umm, but honestly, we were so busy we didn't have time to do a lot of that. 0:21:6.140 --> 0:21:12.420 Liz Palmer I mean, we were busy living our life and going to school and doing stuff was, you know, we didn't. 0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:14.450 Liz Palmer You had to hand write all your essays. 0:21:15.770 --> 0:21:17.140 Liz Palmer I didn't have a typewriter. 0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:25.60 Liz Palmer So you can imagine like you know, you were busy doing stuff and you actually had to go to a library and use books to look things up. 0:21:25.70 --> 0:21:27.0 Liz Palmer There was nothing online to do it. 0:21:27.10 --> 0:21:33.760 Liz Palmer So your life was busy doing things that now take a tenth of the time of what they used to take. 0:21:35.250 --> 0:21:35.710 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:21:34.730 --> 0:21:44.340 Liz Palmer And there's no there were no chat bots or whatever to get you through stuff, and there was no AI to write your papers for you or anything, you know. 0:21:44.350 --> 0:21:46.340 Liz Palmer So it was it was. 0:21:46.570 --> 0:21:47.280 Liz Palmer It was different. 0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:47.660 Liz Palmer It was a very. 0:21:49.450 --> 0:21:56.290 Liz Palmer Different time and I guess for women, I do remember I had a a friend in my class. 0:21:56.300 --> 0:21:58.560 Liz Palmer Her father was a physician here in Ottawa. 0:21:58.670 --> 0:22:0.440 Liz Palmer Old, old fashioned. 0:22:0.890 --> 0:22:1.740 Liz Palmer Nice man. 0:22:1.750 --> 0:22:3.310 Liz Palmer Old-fashioned French Canadian. 0:22:5.360 --> 0:22:7.190 Liz Palmer His daughter is was brilliant. 0:22:7.280 --> 0:22:14.770 Liz Palmer Probably the smartest of the whole family should have been a position, but he wouldn't allow her to do medicine because she was a girl. 0:22:14.820 --> 0:22:22.400 Liz Palmer Because women should stay home and have babies and look after their families and and at the time, I couldn't. 0:22:25.340 --> 0:22:25.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.830 Liz Palmer I I had really had a problem with that because. 0:22:25.630 --> 0:22:33.630 Philippe Alain Paradis So you went to like some events because like, I imagine that probably like sure like that made you feel stuff there that that's pretty that's pretty like upsetting to hear. 0:22:33.980 --> 0:22:35.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. Yeah. 0:22:33.930 --> 0:22:37.690 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, it was I I found it very upsetting but I have to. 0:22:38.580 --> 0:22:44.210 Liz Palmer It wasn't till years later till I realized that my parents were very different from a lot of other. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:47.70 Liz Palmer I came from a low a very working class neighborhood. 0:22:48.490 --> 0:22:54.350 Liz Palmer My parents both worked with no choice because they, but because they came from Europe, they were. 0:22:54.360 --> 0:22:58.320 Liz Palmer They weren't German, they were Swiss, but they were always treated as if they were German. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:22:59.990 Liz Palmer So post war, that was a big deal. 0:23:2.400 --> 0:23:12.10 Liz Palmer But my parents always said to said to my sister and I at the two oldest you guys are going to go to university like there was never any option that we wouldn't go. 0:23:13.50 --> 0:23:17.0 Liz Palmer It was expected that we would go to university and that's all there was to it. 0:23:17.170 --> 0:23:18.420 Liz Palmer We grew up that way. 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:30.700 Liz Palmer My brothers, my two younger brothers, went as well and I didn't realize till I was quite a bit older than a lot of women like they had to pay their own way to go to universe. 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:35.580 Liz Palmer Their parents wouldn't pay for it because women didn't go to university in those days. 0:23:36.130 --> 0:23:36.710 Liz Palmer They just didn't. 0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:41.450 Liz Palmer Umm, it was just you would go to. 0:23:41.460 --> 0:23:43.190 Liz Palmer You know you could work in the government. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:44.790 Liz Palmer You could do secretarial school. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:52.470 Liz Palmer I had good friends that did secretarial school, but out of my like, I'm thinking about my my sort of grade school class. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.100 Liz Palmer My even my high school, my high school class, was the best. 0:23:56.770 --> 0:24:10.780 Liz Palmer Graduated June 1970, I would say 1/3 of 1/3 of my class went on to university and I would say about half my class got married because they were. 0:24:11.130 --> 0:24:14.960 Liz Palmer They were Italian background so they got it. 0:24:15.70 --> 0:24:21.560 Liz Palmer They were lucky they got through high school and then they got married that summer and then the rest of us went on to do different things. 0:24:21.570 --> 0:24:25.310 Liz Palmer And I say maybe 1/3 of us out of that class went on to university. 0:24:26.120 --> 0:24:27.620 Liz Palmer So it was a very different time. 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:28.830 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:24:34.860 --> 0:24:36.750 Liz Palmer I wasn't inequality, it's just the way it was. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:37.230 Liz Palmer It was. 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:37.470 Philippe Alain Paradis So like as you went along, you started being exposed to more of these like injustices and like inequalities and a little bit, right? 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.70 Liz Palmer It was cultural. 0:24:38.80 --> 0:24:46.280 Liz Palmer It was very, very cultural and because because it was a Catholic girls school, there were a lot of Italian young ladies there. 0:24:46.290 --> 0:24:52.180 Liz Palmer They were friends, but those of us that weren't that were from different backgrounds. 0:24:52.190 --> 0:25:0.140 Liz Palmer I would say uh, as I said about 1/3 a third of bus went on to university and and finished university and did different things. 0:25:1.550 --> 0:25:4.140 Liz Palmer But then a whole lot of them didn't. 0:25:4.210 --> 0:25:7.960 Liz Palmer You know, some went on to secretarial school, some worked in a government. 0:25:9.40 --> 0:25:12.110 Liz Palmer It was umm, but I didn't realize again. 0:25:12.120 --> 0:25:21.280 Liz Palmer As I said earlier, until much later in life that my family was very different because the expectation was that we would go to university and my parents paid for it. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:22.160 Liz Palmer That was the other thing. 0:25:22.780 --> 0:25:23.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:25:22.750 --> 0:25:23.390 Liz Palmer My dad. 0:25:23.120 --> 0:25:23.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you. 0:25:23.470 --> 0:25:24.130 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:24.350 --> 0:25:25.240 Liz Palmer Yeah, my dad sort. 0:25:29.220 --> 0:25:29.370 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:32.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, you didn't realize like maybe later other people wouldn't agree with that, like other people might not like the notion of a woman going. Yeah. 0:25:33.980 --> 0:25:34.200 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:34.690 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, no women didn't. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:41.90 Liz Palmer There was still that that old fashioned idea that women don't go to university, they don't need higher education because they're just gonna get married. 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.100 Liz Palmer And they're gonna have kids, and they're gonna stay home. 0:25:43.850 --> 0:25:49.490 Liz Palmer Well, neither myself, my sister nor my good friends did any of that. 0:25:49.500 --> 0:25:50.800 Liz Palmer We we all. 0:25:50.860 --> 0:25:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, most of us married, we all had jobs. 0:25:53.210 --> 0:25:53.910 Liz Palmer We worked. 0:25:54.330 --> 0:26:7.310 Liz Palmer We were like that whole generation of younger women that had our children use daycare or whatever and and continued working right up until we retired. 0:26:8.700 --> 0:26:9.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:9.330 --> 0:26:13.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:26:14.120 --> 0:26:14.630 Philippe Alain Paradis How did? 0:26:14.740 --> 0:26:15.470 Philippe Alain Paradis How did that? 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:16.790 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:26:17.180 --> 0:26:17.620 Liz Palmer No kidding. 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:18.250 Philippe Alain Paradis How did peeing a woman? 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:18.890 Philippe Alain Paradis How? 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis How is it being a woman result in different treatments and expectations in classrooms where at social events compared to male students? 0:26:27.970 --> 0:26:31.120 Liz Palmer It's hard to say because most everyone in my class was female. 0:26:31.130 --> 0:26:33.390 Liz Palmer There were no male students, so. 0:26:33.450 --> 0:26:34.20 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:34.750 --> 0:26:41.770 Liz Palmer So in those days, yes, if you were going in to a building, the men would hold the door for you. 0:26:44.300 --> 0:26:44.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:26:44.230 --> 0:26:45.340 Liz Palmer That's all I. 0:26:45.380 --> 0:26:52.360 Liz Palmer But as you know, when it came to other, I think expectations of female students and male students were the same. 0:26:52.370 --> 0:26:53.480 Liz Palmer You had to produce. 0:26:53.790 --> 0:26:58.950 Liz Palmer You know, if there was paperwork to be done or essays to be written, you had to produce those. 0:27:0.540 --> 0:27:5.150 Liz Palmer I don't because my class was all women and all taught by women. 0:27:5.160 --> 0:27:7.670 Liz Palmer There were no male teachers either it. 0:27:8.800 --> 0:27:16.300 Liz Palmer I mean, I took the psychology and philosophy and I did some film classes and art classes and stuff, but. 0:27:21.150 --> 0:27:21.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:27:18.470 --> 0:27:22.210 Liz Palmer I didn't feel that there was any difference, to be honest. Yeah. 0:27:24.230 --> 0:27:24.990 Liz Palmer That was it, yeah. 0:27:21.670 --> 0:27:26.250 Philippe Alain Paradis You just attended class and did the work and that was that. Yeah. 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:39.160 Philippe Alain Paradis So in the 1970s, were there, you oughta programs, departments or clubs or like just social events or anything where women like or maybe you or just women in general, like felt less like present and accepted. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:42.930 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:43.930 Liz Palmer No, I never felt that. 0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:45.260 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:27:45.340 --> 0:27:47.130 Liz Palmer Now if I wanted to be there, I'd be there. 0:27:47.140 --> 0:27:49.500 Liz Palmer If I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. 0:27:49.860 --> 0:28:0.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, alright, so historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:28:1.390 --> 0:28:1.640 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:28:0.100 --> 0:28:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? 0:28:13.170 --> 0:28:15.380 Liz Palmer Umm interesting question. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:23.140 Liz Palmer I think we all felt the need to see it to get into a better world, for sure. 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:30.150 Liz Palmer Umm, we certainly felt that women were equal to anything a man did. 0:28:31.370 --> 0:28:31.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:28:34.650 --> 0:28:41.450 Liz Palmer There were probably guys I met that were stupid, but you know, they didn't last long in my world. 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.870 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.320 Liz Palmer I most of the boyfriends I had were older. 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:54.700 Liz Palmer UM, at the time the like. 0:28:54.710 --> 0:28:55.360 Liz Palmer It was interesting. 0:28:55.370 --> 0:29:1.590 Liz Palmer The engineers in our building were big drinkers, Big partiers. 0:29:2.850 --> 0:29:10.180 Liz Palmer I don't know if they're still the same I, but at the time that's the way they were the, you know, there was the football games and all that stuff. 0:29:10.190 --> 0:29:12.180 Liz Palmer And they were always drunk or whatever. 0:29:12.570 --> 0:29:21.230 Liz Palmer And they always sort of made stupid comments, but as we got to know them and they got to know us as people, it was that kind of disappeared. 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:22.470 Philippe Alain Paradis But humanize them. 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.610 Liz Palmer But that whole? 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.310 Liz Palmer Yeah, exactly. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.510 Liz Palmer But you know at the beginning it was all this stupid stuff and we just told them to get stuffed. 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:37.390 Liz Palmer And I mean, it was just most of our friends most we did a lot of work with the with medicine. 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:51.740 Liz Palmer Like we took some of our courses with the medical students and as we got to know them really well, like the people in that like their first year medicine and stuff we did, we did some anatomy and Physiology classes over at the medical building. 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:52.260 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:29:52.270 --> 0:30:2.930 Liz Palmer I don't think they do that anymore, but I I don't know how it's set up, but we got to know those guys and there were a few women, but again, it was mainly men there as well. 0:30:3.630 --> 0:30:8.0 Liz Palmer So and the and the nursing was all was all women and all female teachers. 0:30:8.10 --> 0:30:10.970 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess. 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:13.780 Liz Palmer I don't. 0:30:17.780 --> 0:30:18.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:30:15.10 --> 0:30:20.170 Liz Palmer I don't remember being terribly conscious about it, but it was certainly something that we were aware of. 0:30:20.180 --> 0:30:20.910 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:30:22.330 --> 0:30:30.120 Philippe Alain Paradis And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents, notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:30:35.780 --> 0:30:37.690 Liz Palmer Yeah, well, that was an interesting one. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:45.100 Liz Palmer Umm my, I would go on a date in the first thing my mother would say is what is this father do and where does he go to church? 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.390 Liz Palmer And I said I have no clue. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:48.250 Liz Palmer I could just. 0:30:48.820 --> 0:30:52.330 Liz Palmer To me, that was that was the traditional role, right? 0:30:52.700 --> 0:30:58.390 Liz Palmer I I remember at one point I was going out with a fellow for for quite a while and my mother was getting very insistent. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.870 Liz Palmer I said, mom, I'm going to dinner. 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:9.470 Liz Palmer I'm not marrying the man and she was, like, totally blown away because if you were going out to someone, then the possibility was there that you're in it, married. 0:31:9.480 --> 0:31:10.450 Liz Palmer And I said absolutely not. 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.330 Liz Palmer I mean, we're just going out for dinner. 0:31:12.340 --> 0:31:13.890 Liz Palmer We're going to a movie. 0:31:13.900 --> 0:31:15.150 Liz Palmer We're going to a concert. 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:16.450 Liz Palmer You know, whatever it is. 0:31:17.140 --> 0:31:29.570 Liz Palmer So I I would say that yes, our our notions of dating and marriage and and as I mentioned, you know, some religious notions were were very much at odds with each other. 0:31:29.580 --> 0:31:36.720 Liz Palmer But you had to respect your parents because they were older and they lived a different through a very different time than we did. 0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:42.440 Liz Palmer Umm, but that didn't mean that I had to follow like as I said with the religious thing. 0:31:42.450 --> 0:31:47.40 Liz Palmer And there were things I saw when I was working in the hospital. 0:31:47.50 --> 0:31:55.660 Liz Palmer And you know things that happened to people as a result of stupid religious stuff like, you know, not being able to have an abortion or something and it. 0:31:55.670 --> 0:31:59.460 Liz Palmer And as I said, that was I would never do that for myself. 0:32:3.800 --> 0:32:4.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:31:59.470 --> 0:32:4.990 Liz Palmer But then I never got myself in that into that position either, so yeah. 0:32:4.900 --> 0:32:9.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that's interesting, because that's a like the way that you see the situation of just going to the movies with someone. 0:32:9.860 --> 0:32:13.470 Philippe Alain Paradis And the way that your parents look at it is so vastly different. 0:32:13.590 --> 0:32:14.60 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.740 Philippe Alain Paradis It's like you're not like marriage is not a thing that like you're going to a movie. 0:32:16.540 --> 0:32:17.910 Liz Palmer Yo, I got I. 0:32:18.340 --> 0:32:20.190 Liz Palmer Yeah, and all the time. 0:32:20.380 --> 0:32:20.520 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:28.240 Liz Palmer I mean, most of my friends during that time, we all, most of us married in in the end. 0:32:30.0 --> 0:32:32.990 Liz Palmer But it wasn't till later and I actually got married. 0:32:33.0 --> 0:32:33.790 Liz Palmer I met my husband. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.290 Liz Palmer I graduated in June. 0:32:35.660 --> 0:32:47.130 Liz Palmer I met my husband the following September and we got married the following June and most of my friends got married after that course and a couple got married. 0:32:47.190 --> 0:32:57.810 Liz Palmer Just sort of at the end of that school year, those four years because it was just too hard to deal with marriage and living together and all that other kind of stuff. 0:32:58.700 --> 0:32:59.130 Liz Palmer A lot. 0:32:59.140 --> 0:33:4.790 Liz Palmer A number of people did live together with their boyfriends, but that again was later on. 0:33:6.390 --> 0:33:16.350 Liz Palmer Ottawa was still a pretty small town in those days and we weren't big city people either, so there was a lot of it was still a little bit of that hanging on. 0:33:17.60 --> 0:33:17.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:25.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And looking back at the 70s, what aspects of Canadian society do you see most out of whack and either fixing? 0:33:25.40 --> 0:33:28.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what were you the most passionate about problems wise? 0:33:30.250 --> 0:33:32.160 Liz Palmer Sorry, I don't really understand that question. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:39.80 Philippe Alain Paradis I'm like for example like it could be like feminism or something like what in Canadian society back then. 0:33:41.930 --> 0:33:47.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel like the strongest about that you felt needed changing like a societal thing? 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.200 Liz Palmer Oh, I see. 0:33:49.710 --> 0:33:49.950 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:33:51.340 --> 0:34:0.460 Liz Palmer While religion was still very, very strong, had a big especially in a small town like like Ottawa was a small town a feminism. 0:34:3.90 --> 0:34:4.450 Liz Palmer Was certainly talked about. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:11.610 Liz Palmer I looked on with a great deal of hmm, you know, do we do? 0:34:11.620 --> 0:34:12.590 Liz Palmer Do we want this or not? 0:34:15.820 --> 0:34:32.170 Liz Palmer I I would think that religion really, when it comes down to it was it was still had a huge hold on and certainly in the early 70s had a huge hold on how people thought about their lives, about how they lived it, umm, how they brought up their children. 0:34:33.330 --> 0:34:37.300 Liz Palmer Ah, what they would stand for and what they wouldn't so. 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:45.670 Liz Palmer Yeah, families at the war in Vietnam also was an issue because we had so many people. 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:55.730 Liz Palmer We we know there were a number of people that came up to Ontario and there were other people that I had met later on in the years that came up because of that. Umm. 0:34:58.130 --> 0:34:59.600 Liz Palmer We didn't have a lot of money. 0:34:59.610 --> 0:35:1.0 Liz Palmer Money was still a big issue. 0:35:1.10 --> 0:35:10.560 Liz Palmer Money was still a really big class issue in those days too, so if you didn't have a lot of money, you didn't travel, you didn't have the fancy clothes. 0:35:10.570 --> 0:35:13.140 Liz Palmer You didn't live in the fancy houses. 0:35:13.150 --> 0:35:21.620 Liz Palmer You, you know, again, as I say, I came from a pretty working class neighborhood, but my parents, you know, they did everything for us kids. 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:30.60 Liz Palmer They they lived and so their children could do, I guess, could do better in their life, right? 0:35:29.260 --> 0:35:30.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm yeah. 0:35:32.370 --> 0:35:33.80 Liz Palmer There wasn't. 0:35:33.90 --> 0:35:39.810 Liz Palmer It's not like now when you know people have kids and they kind of let them go feral and do whatever they want. 0:35:41.150 --> 0:35:43.50 Liz Palmer Your parents, you know, you came home. 0:35:43.60 --> 0:35:44.860 Liz Palmer You had dinner every night together. 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:49.80 Liz Palmer Uh, and that's what I did with we did with our own children. 0:35:49.90 --> 0:35:50.660 Liz Palmer Is that, you know, dinner was important. 0:35:50.670 --> 0:35:54.820 Liz Palmer You had to come home, have dinner, unless you had a hockey practice or something like that. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:56.910 Liz Palmer But family came first. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:2.0 Liz Palmer Your work and then your schooling, etcetera came was ever. 0:36:3.470 --> 0:36:4.780 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues? 0:36:4.790 --> 0:36:6.840 Philippe Alain Paradis It sounds like you mentioned religion a few times. 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:15.840 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:36:6.850 --> 0:36:19.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues that like to at the time you were, like, frustrated about it like you like, like like you mentioned for example, like religion a few times like you saw someone at like in that, like clearly needed an abortion. 0:36:19.570 --> 0:36:23.410 Philippe Alain Paradis So like that sounds like that like struck a chord with you a little bit like, yeah. 0:36:22.90 --> 0:36:23.980 Liz Palmer Ohh definitely that was a it was. 0:36:23.990 --> 0:36:32.400 Liz Palmer It was a very big deal for me and because my parents were such staunch Catholics, that became an issue in our family, between myself and my mom. 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:40.650 Liz Palmer My dad was pretty easy going because my excuse me, my dad was originally Lutheran but became Catholic. 0:36:40.660 --> 0:36:44.30 Liz Palmer So he could marry my mother because she wouldn't marry him if he wasn't cast like so. 0:36:44.40 --> 0:36:51.20 Liz Palmer That's how strong her religion was, and we were brought up very strictly in the Catholic faith and we didn't know any better. 0:36:51.30 --> 0:36:53.540 Liz Palmer And we, you know, we actually had a very good life. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:55.150 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:36:56.370 --> 0:36:58.290 Liz Palmer And you know, very safe. 0:36:58.720 --> 0:37:2.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, like I mean, you know, we were never in any danger. 0:37:2.640 --> 0:37:3.840 Liz Palmer We always had enough food. 0:37:5.290 --> 0:37:14.920 Liz Palmer I mean, when you look at what people are going through today, we actually even though we didn't have a lot, we were always you know, well looked after well fed and well loved. 0:37:15.720 --> 0:37:27.120 Liz Palmer But as we got as my sister and I both got older and even my brothers, because they are quite a bit younger than we are, we all left the church behind, which was really interesting. 0:37:27.170 --> 0:37:28.20 Liz Palmer None of us. 0:37:29.290 --> 0:37:32.970 Liz Palmer Well, my kids, I took my kids to church. 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.300 Liz Palmer They went to Sunday school, but my husband's not Catholic. 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:39.970 Liz Palmer My mother in law just about died when she had to go to a Catholic Church. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.940 Liz Palmer We got married. 0:37:40.950 --> 0:37:44.510 Liz Palmer That was hard for her, but you know, it was those. 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:45.850 Liz Palmer So those religious things? 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:48.580 Liz Palmer Protestant, Catholic, whatever were very, very strong. 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:57.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:37:51.190 --> 0:37:59.30 Liz Palmer But I guess that that was probably the biggest, the biggest thing, I think until until we got older and things. 0:38:1.520 --> 0:38:2.240 Philippe Alain Paradis Mellow down. 0:38:1.140 --> 0:38:2.770 Liz Palmer Sort of resolved, but again my. 0:38:2.840 --> 0:38:4.340 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:38:5.0 --> 0:38:5.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:5.640 --> 0:38:9.270 Liz Palmer And then the church changed in the 70s and the late in the 80s too. 0:38:9.280 --> 0:38:11.620 Liz Palmer So that was a whole other big issue then. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:21.460 Philippe Alain Paradis What did you see back then as the biggest form of injustice in Canadian society, like the things that you found the most unfair? 0:38:23.70 --> 0:38:23.480 Liz Palmer Hmm. 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:30.850 Liz Palmer In the at that time, probably women's rights. UM. 0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:39.370 Liz Palmer There wasn't much I worked one summer up north in Moosonee. 0:38:39.380 --> 0:38:55.490 Liz Palmer I worked at A and indigenous hospital at the time and that was the first time I really saw the differences between living, you know, as a white person living South and then going up to an area cause I worked the whole summer up there. 0:38:55.500 --> 0:38:56.330 Liz Palmer I would take. 0:38:56.660 --> 0:39:4.330 Liz Palmer I would take patients back up north to different we they fly them up north and the nurse would have to go with them. 0:39:4.340 --> 0:39:5.500 Liz Palmer I was going as the nurse. 0:39:6.570 --> 0:39:12.270 Liz Palmer That was the first time I really saw those types of injustice, and that was that was a huge deal at the time, I remember. 0:39:13.550 --> 0:39:16.70 Liz Palmer Umm but. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:25.660 Liz Palmer Probably I, you know, I wasn't terribly aware in those days of those things to be quite honest, it was. 0:39:25.390 --> 0:39:31.340 Philippe Alain Paradis But it was clear that something had to had to be done about it, and it's. 0:39:30.490 --> 0:39:32.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, the women's rights were a big deal. 0:39:36.670 --> 0:39:43.510 Liz Palmer Medical medical advances that were available to some people and not to others available in some areas but not in others. 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:55.180 Liz Palmer There were, you know, when I was up north, there were women used to come quote unquote S to musani to Moose factory to have their babies. 0:39:55.190 --> 0:40:2.390 Liz Palmer And there were a lot of babies born with very awful birth defects that most of them didn't live. 0:40:4.450 --> 0:40:10.820 Liz Palmer So there was a lot of that that we saw and they're just because they lived in small places like small villages and stuff up north. 0:40:10.870 --> 0:40:11.910 Liz Palmer He had to come that far. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:25.250 Liz Palmer So, but you know, it was it was just a very different life, and that was the first exposure I got to, you know, women that would have 10 or 12 children and and with the child didn't live, they were OK with that because the kid was. 0:40:32.220 --> 0:40:32.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:25.260 --> 0:40:36.660 Liz Palmer So I mean, there was no way the child could live because they were so badly are they had so many health issues that they wouldn't live outside of an incubator, right. 0:40:37.410 --> 0:40:37.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:40:37.260 --> 0:40:40.890 Liz Palmer So those those children died within a few days, and the mother was sad. 0:40:40.900 --> 0:40:44.870 Liz Palmer But it was an acceptance which you would never get here. 0:40:44.940 --> 0:40:45.640 Liz Palmer Never get here. 0:40:45.380 --> 0:40:47.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that sounds quite jarring to witness. 0:40:48.170 --> 0:40:50.70 Liz Palmer Umm I was and and then. 0:40:47.700 --> 0:40:52.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And that's yeah, like to see that that that was like normal sort of there was. 0:40:52.590 --> 0:40:53.280 Liz Palmer Exactly. 0:40:53.490 --> 0:40:55.880 Liz Palmer It was, yes, more normalized than it should have been. 0:40:56.750 --> 0:40:56.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:1.590 Liz Palmer But then the children were born with birth defects that you wouldn't see here because of the inbreeding. 0:41:1.600 --> 0:41:2.250 Liz Palmer That a lot of it. 0:41:2.300 --> 0:41:4.70 Liz Palmer That's how it was explained to me at the time. 0:41:5.170 --> 0:41:10.680 Liz Palmer But I think now it was also things like mercury in the water pesticide use. 0:41:10.720 --> 0:41:12.300 Liz Palmer There's probably all that kind of stuff. 0:41:12.310 --> 0:41:14.800 Liz Palmer That was all in there, but we didn't know about it in those times. 0:41:15.460 --> 0:41:15.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:41:15.700 --> 0:41:23.540 Philippe Alain Paradis So you saw some pretty pretty like bad issues on the reservations that that's that that's quite a good example of injustice. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That's that's tragic. 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:30.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:41:24.790 --> 0:41:36.820 Liz Palmer Well, that was the reserves were very also, you know you go up there, you land, there's a nursing station and the house where the doctor lived or the nurse lived at the social worker and the teachers lived. 0:41:36.830 --> 0:41:41.180 Liz Palmer And then then there's where the actual people in the village live. 0:41:42.660 --> 0:41:42.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:41:41.270 --> 0:41:50.70 Liz Palmer Very different and my husband will actually was a was a teacher for, I think two years in a northern community as well on the reserve. 0:41:50.80 --> 0:41:53.680 Liz Palmer And you know, his stories were very similar to that as well. 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:1.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:42:2.0 --> 0:42:4.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing any of the any of these issues at all. 0:42:5.900 --> 0:42:8.830 Liz Palmer Ohh, probably not, but honestly I wasn't. 0:42:8.840 --> 0:42:11.200 Liz Palmer I really wasn't into politics at that point. 0:42:11.180 --> 0:42:11.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:42:11.990 --> 0:42:18.350 Liz Palmer I was my family was liberal and I used to work at different. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:19.30 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:19.100 --> 0:42:19.420 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:21.660 --> 0:42:25.700 Liz Palmer Work at, you know, different times when they were elections and stuff. 0:42:26.620 --> 0:42:27.590 Liz Palmer I was part of that. 0:42:27.740 --> 0:42:35.160 Liz Palmer I used to go to meetings, political meetings and stuff like that, but it was never John Turner was who I worked for. 0:42:35.170 --> 0:42:41.280 Liz Palmer I think when one year, but he lost out to Pierre Trudeau senior, so that was different. 0:42:41.690 --> 0:42:44.30 Liz Palmer But anyway, so it was the again. 0:42:46.0 --> 0:42:47.670 Liz Palmer Different times, you know. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:48.550 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:42:48.620 --> 0:42:52.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there like an assumption that, like the government wasn't doing things correctly back then? 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:53.930 Liz Palmer Oh, no. 0:42:52.860 --> 0:42:54.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing these things, no. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.280 Philippe Alain Paradis OK. 0:42:53.940 --> 0:42:58.680 Liz Palmer No, no, no, no government could do no wrong in those days in our household anyway. 0:43:2.550 --> 0:43:20.280 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, so for the this next section, cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you agree with that statement? 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:25.470 Liz Palmer Ohh, absolutely absolutely yes. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.420 Liz Palmer Yes, with the pill you could do whatever you want and you didn't have to worry about getting pregnant, right? 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:33.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis That must have been a huge change. 0:43:37.10 --> 0:43:38.870 Liz Palmer Yes and no. 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:39.120 Philippe Alain Paradis Compared to. 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.270 Liz Palmer I mean it compared to before, probably, yeah. 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.70 Liz Palmer But the pill had always been available. 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:50.120 Liz Palmer I mean, even though I went to a Catholic girls school, we all knew about the pill. 0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:51.400 Liz Palmer My mother was very good about. 0:43:53.940 --> 0:43:58.150 Liz Palmer Uh, you know, teaching us the sex education schools didn't do it in those days. 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:5.310 Liz Palmer Like, I mean, your parents did it, but my parents were very open about things and they were very good about that. 0:44:5.320 --> 0:44:9.190 Liz Palmer So we we knew about those things, but of course we were allowed to take it right. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:9.200 --> 0:44:13.460 Liz Palmer And of course, there was no sex before marriage and all that other kind of stuff. 0:44:13.470 --> 0:44:15.120 Liz Palmer But that all changed. 0:44:17.130 --> 0:44:20.790 Philippe Alain Paradis And what did dating look like at Yowa during the 1970s? 0:44:22.890 --> 0:44:23.820 Liz Palmer But how do you mean? 0:44:23.830 --> 0:44:26.400 Liz Palmer Just ohh guys got. 0:44:23.500 --> 0:44:27.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, I'm just like, yeah, very generally speaking. 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:29.320 Liz Palmer Oh, just guys. 0:44:29.330 --> 0:44:30.110 Liz Palmer Ask girls out. 0:44:31.300 --> 0:44:31.980 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:44:33.790 --> 0:44:35.320 Liz Palmer You would go for coffee. 0:44:35.330 --> 0:44:37.700 Liz Palmer There were the coffee go to movies. 0:44:43.270 --> 0:44:43.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:39.350 --> 0:44:44.660 Liz Palmer Nobody had any money, so nobody really went out to dinner unless you went out with someone who was older. 0:44:45.110 --> 0:44:49.220 Liz Palmer So you would go to concerts, you'd go to movies, you'd go to parties together. 0:44:49.670 --> 0:44:50.720 Liz Palmer You know, that kind of thing? 0:44:51.890 --> 0:44:52.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Just. 0:44:50.810 --> 0:44:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, pretty normal stuff, yeah. 0:44:53.990 --> 0:44:54.300 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:54.310 --> 0:44:54.830 Philippe Alain Paradis That reminds me. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what you were saying earlier? 0:44:58.300 --> 0:44:59.180 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah. 0:44:55.980 --> 0:44:59.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you do a lot of really casual things and just like normal. 0:45:0.980 --> 0:45:1.220 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:3.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Hang out and yeah, and then your parents had their views on it. 0:45:5.170 --> 0:45:5.740 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:45:4.640 --> 0:45:6.590 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:45:5.790 --> 0:45:6.840 Liz Palmer What is this father do? 0:45:6.850 --> 0:45:7.860 Liz Palmer And where does he go to church? 0:45:7.960 --> 0:45:9.240 Liz Palmer I've no clue. 0:45:8.870 --> 0:45:9.920 Philippe Alain Paradis I haven't even met him. 0:45:9.250 --> 0:45:10.20 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:45:9.970 --> 0:45:10.620 Philippe Alain Paradis I don't know his name. 0:45:10.230 --> 0:45:13.870 Liz Palmer I will he be live in Montreal? 0:45:14.20 --> 0:45:15.850 Liz Palmer Because a lot of people came to Ottawa. 0:45:15.860 --> 0:45:17.950 Liz Palmer You from a lot of different places, right? 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:18.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:31.120 Liz Palmer So because they had programs there that didn't have any other places, so there were lots of and and the other thing too is that it was thought that was the easy to get into Ottawa because they always were looking for students. 0:45:32.20 --> 0:45:32.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:45:32.90 --> 0:45:37.310 Liz Palmer But then of course, my sister went to Saint Paths, which was a separate college. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.300 Liz Palmer But then became part of Carlton. 0:45:40.90 --> 0:45:47.90 Liz Palmer But then, of course, he always disparage Carlton because they were just the, you know, anybody could get into Carlton. 0:45:49.540 --> 0:45:50.500 Liz Palmer So yes. 0:45:50.190 --> 0:45:50.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:45:50.690 --> 0:45:59.180 Philippe Alain Paradis And was it ever look down on, like just dating casually, like amongst just just the younger people, just the uottawa? 0:45:59.710 --> 0:46:1.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Or was it just totally normal? 0:46:1.900 --> 0:46:4.30 Liz Palmer Ohh it's not you mean what do you mean dating? 0:46:7.880 --> 0:46:8.120 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:46:4.630 --> 0:46:8.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, yeah, like some parents might not approve of, like their kids going around and dating it. 0:46:8.480 --> 0:46:8.860 Philippe Alain Paradis You Ottawa. 0:46:8.870 --> 0:46:10.320 Philippe Alain Paradis But amongst students, was it. 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:11.390 Liz Palmer Oh, it's not. 0:46:10.330 --> 0:46:12.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it frowned upon at all? No. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:12.930 Liz Palmer No, no, not at all. 0:46:12.940 --> 0:46:13.680 Liz Palmer Day dating was. 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:16.360 Liz Palmer Well, that's how you got to meet people, right? 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 0:46:18.170 --> 0:46:19.490 Philippe Alain Paradis Like just relationships and stuff. 0:46:19.500 --> 0:46:21.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That was just it was just normal. 0:46:21.720 --> 0:46:22.450 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:46:29.550 --> 0:46:29.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:46:22.460 --> 0:46:31.760 Liz Palmer I mean, I think my sister in law put it when you went to university to to earn your Mrs right and your misses like to find your husband, right? 0:46:31.770 --> 0:46:32.300 Liz Palmer Your Mrs? 0:46:32.270 --> 0:46:33.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. Yeah. 0:46:41.380 --> 0:46:41.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:44.670 Liz Palmer Well, that's, I guess that was kind of what it was like, but I mean, no, everybody just dated and and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't, you know. 0:46:47.20 --> 0:46:49.610 Philippe Alain Paradis How did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:46:49.620 --> 0:46:50.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there any like? 0:46:50.820 --> 0:46:56.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Did they ever really like challenge those notions or discuss it or yeah. 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:4.850 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, I think a lot of younger women because of the pill and because of the changing morays of the time. 0:47:4.860 --> 0:47:12.950 Liz Palmer You could you could have a relationship with someone you could move in, but you didn't have to get married, and that was a huge deal for a lot of girls. 0:47:13.20 --> 0:47:15.880 Liz Palmer And a lot of women guys, of course, were happy with that. 0:47:18.350 --> 0:47:18.530 Liz Palmer But. 0:47:21.460 --> 0:47:28.630 Liz Palmer I think in the end they're probably more after we graduated that happened, I would find. 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:33.580 Liz Palmer But because when we were at school, nobody, as I said, nobody had any money like so. 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:37.150 Liz Palmer Certainly my friends in my class, most people didn't have a lot of money. 0:47:37.460 --> 0:47:45.150 Liz Palmer So, you know, we were living at home or we were, you know, living on campus or you were living in an apartment with two or three other people. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Liz Palmer So you were scrimping and saving, so it was. 0:47:50.700 --> 0:47:51.990 Liz Palmer It was kind of different. 0:47:54.660 --> 0:48:2.310 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess the the fact that you didn't have to get married anymore was the that that was a huge deal. 0:48:3.70 --> 0:48:3.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:2.960 --> 0:48:5.680 Liz Palmer That was a huge deal at the time and I think that made a difference. 0:48:6.600 --> 0:48:9.880 Liz Palmer Umm, because you didn't really need to. 0:48:12.820 --> 0:48:20.220 Liz Palmer Uh, you didn't really need to worry about getting married, cause all of a sudden you didn't really need to get married. 0:48:21.550 --> 0:48:26.350 Liz Palmer But still, having kids without a partner, I always felt was very difficult cause. 0:48:28.390 --> 0:48:29.370 Liz Palmer Kids are a lot of work. 0:48:30.270 --> 0:48:30.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:33.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:32.490 --> 0:48:36.690 Liz Palmer I take a lot out of the you need two people to do that or or a village to raise a child, yes. 0:48:35.260 --> 0:48:38.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, for sure. Right. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:41.930 Philippe Alain Paradis So like just the notion of like, do you like having to get married and stuff? 0:48:41.940 --> 0:48:46.730 Philippe Alain Paradis It was looked at like more practically, if at times by younger people, yeah. 0:48:45.750 --> 0:48:47.170 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was it. 0:48:47.210 --> 0:48:49.660 Liz Palmer There was no notion of having to get married anymore. 0:48:49.470 --> 0:48:49.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:49.670 --> 0:48:50.280 Liz Palmer You got married. 0:48:50.290 --> 0:48:54.110 Liz Palmer If you wanted to, and if you wanted, if you wanted to, that was great. 0:48:56.370 --> 0:48:56.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.380 Liz Palmer But if you didn't want to, you didn't have to, which was fine too, yeah. 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:57.690 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:48:58.610 --> 0:48:59.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:59.670 --> 0:49:15.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And just before I move on to the last section, do you like, do you think that like just regarding all of these things and and just general attitudes, behavior and stuff on campus, do you think like movies and music and stuff influence like people's behavior a lot? 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like maybe like rock becoming popular a little later. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.870 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:49:18.810 --> 0:49:25.250 Philippe Alain Paradis And did you ever see like the impact of like media on people and their behavior on campus at all? 0:49:26.670 --> 0:49:27.580 Philippe Alain Paradis It's gonna make but. 0:49:33.390 --> 0:49:33.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:49:30.330 --> 0:49:34.120 Liz Palmer Yes, music in particular, music. 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:34.940 Liz Palmer Governed. 0:49:35.110 --> 0:49:35.320 Liz Palmer Who? 0:49:35.330 --> 0:49:37.400 Liz Palmer Your friends were where you went. 0:49:37.460 --> 0:49:44.370 Liz Palmer The concerts you went to, the books you read, the group she belonged to. Uh. 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.270 Liz Palmer Disco was part of it, but then I was far more at. 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.670 Liz Palmer At one point I was far more into umm. 0:49:58.620 --> 0:50:0.420 Liz Palmer It's sort of the coffee house scene. 0:50:1.90 --> 0:50:1.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:50:2.910 --> 0:50:10.620 Liz Palmer And all those, all that kind of sort of stuff, we were far more hip than the people that went to do disco. 0:50:12.470 --> 0:50:14.190 Liz Palmer We thought we were like, put it that way. 0:50:15.940 --> 0:50:17.190 Liz Palmer We were that we were smarter. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.910 Liz Palmer You know, we've always thought we were better than the rest, but I mean, we were just stupid. 0:50:21.300 --> 0:50:23.860 Liz Palmer But umm, it was. 0:50:25.540 --> 0:50:32.540 Liz Palmer I think it really led into how you lived, who, where you went, who your friends were. 0:50:40.670 --> 0:50:41.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Wow. 0:50:33.830 --> 0:50:42.910 Liz Palmer As I said, the books you read the the opinions you held and who and in the end who you ended up voting for too, it was, you know, so it it. 0:50:42.980 --> 0:50:43.330 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:50:43.340 --> 0:51:8.20 Liz Palmer Because you know, if it was, it's as I got older, I got more and more into the into the political stuff because you you always, you know, sort of became aware as time went on as of how who you voted for in the election would affect how much money was going to education or healthcare or you know the what was going into you know whatever was affecting the world at that time but umm. 0:51:10.90 --> 0:51:14.360 Liz Palmer Yeah, I think I think there was certainly a correlation in there for sure. 0:51:14.580 --> 0:51:20.480 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that that's interesting because you named basically every facet of like what makes someone and like an individual, right? 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:20.860 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:23.540 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:20.490 --> 0:51:28.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Like their opinions, they're the people they hung around with that then all of that, like music, had a pardon. Hmm. 0:51:25.750 --> 0:51:40.0 Liz Palmer And and movies were a big thing, too, because we got very snotty about about watching French films, and I'm I learned, I I I started to smoke when I was at university, cause everybody smoked and it ought to be you. 0:51:40.10 --> 0:51:40.490 Liz Palmer You smoke? 0:51:40.500 --> 0:51:42.180 Liz Palmer God was in Japan, right? 0:51:42.190 --> 0:51:43.220 Liz Palmer The French cigarettes. 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:44.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.960 Liz Palmer So anything French became very ohkura very. 0:51:51.220 --> 0:51:54.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right trends and stuff, but that could all that. Mm-hmm. 0:51:49.910 --> 0:51:55.420 Liz Palmer In very if you want trend trend, yes, trendy. 0:51:55.490 --> 0:51:59.320 Liz Palmer And if you wanted to be, quote unquote, one of the cool kids, this is what you did. 0:51:59.330 --> 0:52:1.860 Liz Palmer So you wore certain clothing you. 0:52:3.900 --> 0:52:6.810 Liz Palmer You went to certain places, you went to certain clubs, you. 0:52:7.670 --> 0:52:10.700 Liz Palmer Uh, you spoke French or you didn't? 0:52:10.710 --> 0:52:12.840 Liz Palmer Or or you pretended you did. 0:52:12.850 --> 0:52:18.640 Liz Palmer Or, you know, whatever it it did affect your it did affect your life at one point. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:19.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:19.250 --> 0:52:21.770 Liz Palmer So yeah, I would say definitely. 0:52:21.780 --> 0:52:26.670 Liz Palmer And and movies from the states, I mean, you had you had Deer Hunter you had. 0:52:28.350 --> 0:52:28.970 Liz Palmer Taxi. 0:52:33.820 --> 0:52:34.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:28.980 --> 0:52:37.40 Liz Palmer You had all those other movies that came in to being at like I Love films, so that was something that I really like to to to do. 0:52:37.490 --> 0:52:41.620 Liz Palmer But in a place like Ottawa, there weren't a lot of, you know. 0:52:43.430 --> 0:52:46.860 Liz Palmer Films that came out that that were anything. 0:52:46.930 --> 0:52:48.450 Liz Palmer The what was it the? 0:52:51.70 --> 0:52:57.210 Liz Palmer And I forget that the theater on Queen Street Bank and Queen forget. 0:52:57.220 --> 0:52:58.300 Liz Palmer I think it was called the realtor. 0:52:58.370 --> 0:52:59.210 Liz Palmer No, it wasn't that. 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:1.50 Liz Palmer Forget what it was called anyway. 0:53:1.660 --> 0:53:4.30 Liz Palmer They would have foreign films come in. 0:53:4.40 --> 0:53:8.760 Liz Palmer So you'd have foreign film festivals or you go to Montreal to see movies and stuff like that too. 0:53:9.920 --> 0:53:10.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.20 Philippe Alain Paradis So this final section is totally optional. 0:53:14.580 --> 0:53:21.590 Philippe Alain Paradis There's a disclaimer that comes with it because it it's a it's a very, very sensitive topic, so if I'll read this claimer and you just have to say yes or no. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.300 Philippe Alain Paradis And if you say no, I won't ask any questions and that'll be it for the interview. 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:26.160 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:53:26.80 --> 0:53:32.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, OK, so this glimmer is the following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:53:32.580 --> 0:53:39.90 Philippe Alain Paradis We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:53:39.300 --> 0:53:43.470 Philippe Alain Paradis You may choose to not answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:53:45.170 --> 0:53:47.650 Liz Palmer I'm fine with that. Yep. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:53.250 Philippe Alain Paradis OK, so many universities today have been, uh, forced to police sexual harassment. 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.640 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:54:1.450 --> 0:54:2.530 Liz Palmer I don't think they did anything. 0:54:4.980 --> 0:54:5.500 Liz Palmer Why would they? 0:54:6.650 --> 0:54:8.960 Philippe Alain Paradis Did did you see it as much of an issue back then? 0:54:8.970 --> 0:54:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, were there rumors circulating or like, people getting caught? 0:54:12.500 --> 0:54:12.850 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:54:12.730 --> 0:54:13.610 Liz Palmer No, no. 0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:17.860 Philippe Alain Paradis So it must have been like pretty like hush hush if yeah. 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 Liz Palmer If it happened, we didn't hear about it. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm wow. 0:54:20.500 --> 0:54:21.780 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way, yeah. 0:54:21.80 --> 0:54:26.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, because I like I have seen stats and so I was like, I have seen people seen stats and stuff and it seems that it was it was quite it. 0:54:26.900 --> 0:54:29.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It turns out like now we know that it was quite prevalent. 0:54:29.490 --> 0:54:33.310 Philippe Alain Paradis So it's interesting to hear that it was kept like you know. 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:36.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:38.270 Liz Palmer I think you have to look at the times from the perspective of the times. 0:54:39.770 --> 0:54:43.520 Liz Palmer Nowadays, women get all upset because the guy whistles at them on the street. 0:54:44.10 --> 0:54:44.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:45.340 --> 0:54:46.650 Liz Palmer No big deal in my day. 0:54:47.240 --> 0:54:47.820 Liz Palmer So what? 0:54:48.430 --> 0:54:49.70 Philippe Alain Paradis If you. 0:54:48.260 --> 0:54:50.510 Liz Palmer So good, I appreciate what you looked like. 0:54:50.990 --> 0:54:51.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:50.580 --> 0:54:54.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays someone will go hearing off to the police saying, Oh my God, he whistled at me. 0:54:56.530 --> 0:54:56.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:54:56.310 --> 0:54:58.690 Liz Palmer That's harassment in some women's. 0:55:0.560 --> 0:55:4.490 Liz Palmer You know and and fair enough if they feel harassed and that then that's it. 0:55:4.840 --> 0:55:6.440 Liz Palmer But in our day, that was not a deal. 0:55:7.220 --> 0:55:9.790 Philippe Alain Paradis If you applied, I'll put A twist on the question. 0:55:9.990 --> 0:55:10.210 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:55:16.90 --> 0:55:18.100 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, they're probably was there. 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.80 Liz Palmer It was there. 0:55:9.960 --> 0:55:19.590 Philippe Alain Paradis If you apply just just for fun, if you applied today's standards of sexual harassment, what would it would have been bad, yeah. 0:55:22.300 --> 0:55:22.570 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:55:19.150 --> 0:55:28.20 Liz Palmer I would I remember being on the bus and a man sitting really close to me like and pushing me like coming right close to me. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.130 Liz Palmer That's harassment as far as I'm concerned. 0:55:30.590 --> 0:55:34.900 Liz Palmer I got up, stepped on his foot, got off the bus. 0:55:36.390 --> 0:55:38.730 Liz Palmer So never reported it. 0:55:39.850 --> 0:55:41.700 Liz Palmer That happened all the time. 0:55:42.370 --> 0:55:42.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:55:41.950 --> 0:55:43.390 Liz Palmer If you were young woman, yeah. 0:55:44.940 --> 0:55:45.210 Liz Palmer I'm. 0:55:45.220 --> 0:55:46.770 Liz Palmer I'm not gonna say all the time, but it happened. 0:55:47.190 --> 0:55:47.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:48.330 Liz Palmer It happened a lot. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.980 Liz Palmer There were, but As for me, I was never. 0:55:56.170 --> 0:56:0.550 Liz Palmer I was never a victim of that type of harassment. 0:56:0.560 --> 0:56:1.430 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:56:1.440 --> 0:56:5.470 Liz Palmer Like anything that that these days, women would complain about. 0:56:5.480 --> 0:56:9.920 Liz Palmer I mean, yeah, some guy would punch your pinch your bottom or something. 0:56:12.420 --> 0:56:13.370 Liz Palmer So no big deal. 0:56:14.170 --> 0:56:14.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:13.780 --> 0:56:18.830 Liz Palmer I mean, that's just, that's just what happened and that's how it was thought of in those days. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:19.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays it's not. 0:56:19.980 --> 0:56:20.730 Liz Palmer It's different. 0:56:20.860 --> 0:56:21.180 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:27.870 Liz Palmer My daughter, would you know, she she would probably, Umm, report somebody who did that. 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.350 Liz Palmer But in my day it was part of the culture. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.950 Liz Palmer If you can put it that way, I mean, I'm not saying it's right. 0:56:32.300 --> 0:56:34.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm it, yeah. 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:36.880 Liz Palmer I'm just saying that that's that's the way it was. 0:56:36.890 --> 0:56:41.560 Liz Palmer That's that's what guys did and I grew up in working class neighborhoods. 0:56:42.770 --> 0:56:44.250 Philippe Alain Paradis There's normalized totally. 0:56:41.570 --> 0:56:45.670 Liz Palmer So there was it was exactly. 0:56:47.570 --> 0:56:47.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:45.740 --> 0:56:48.500 Liz Palmer That's a very good way to put it was normalized, so yeah. 0:56:47.950 --> 0:56:50.200 Philippe Alain Paradis So it wasn't even viewed as a problem that needed fixing. 0:56:50.210 --> 0:56:52.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just how? Wow. 0:56:52.30 --> 0:56:54.300 Liz Palmer It's just the way some men are stupid. 0:56:54.770 --> 0:56:55.660 Liz Palmer That's the way they are. 0:56:55.830 --> 0:56:56.440 Liz Palmer You didn't. 0:56:56.450 --> 0:57:2.600 Liz Palmer You didn't have anything to do with those guys, but you know my my mom used to make it very clear. 0:57:2.610 --> 0:57:3.440 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:3.570 --> 0:57:4.290 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:5.350 --> 0:57:5.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:57:6.60 --> 0:57:6.300 Liz Palmer OK. 0:57:5.930 --> 0:57:11.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And our yeah, our generation is interested in a like in a free love movement. 0:57:11.670 --> 0:57:17.380 Philippe Alain Paradis What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? 0:57:17.390 --> 0:57:21.640 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it viewed negatively accepted or like literally encouraged? 0:57:21.650 --> 0:57:23.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Or like amongst the. 0:57:22.730 --> 0:57:23.700 Liz Palmer Was accepted. 0:57:24.50 --> 0:57:24.940 Liz Palmer It was accepted. 0:57:24.950 --> 0:57:29.0 Liz Palmer I meet most of the girls in in my class had boyfriends and. 0:57:31.230 --> 0:57:31.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:31.170 --> 0:57:32.480 Liz Palmer They all went to bed together. 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:33.40 Liz Palmer I mean, it was. 0:57:34.550 --> 0:57:34.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:33.50 --> 0:57:35.260 Liz Palmer No, it was accepted. 0:57:35.270 --> 0:57:35.600 Liz Palmer It was. 0:57:35.610 --> 0:57:38.680 Liz Palmer It was your choice if you wanted to, umm. 0:57:42.890 --> 0:57:43.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:39.330 --> 0:57:50.660 Liz Palmer As it as of whether they were pressured, I don't know what was never brought up as as an issue like I never knew anybody who was upset by the fact that some guy had pressured. 0:57:50.710 --> 0:57:52.840 Liz Palmer I mean, there were guys that were stupid enough to. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:53.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:54.830 --> 0:57:56.720 Liz Palmer Think that you know you didn't talk to each other. 0:57:56.730 --> 0:57:57.420 Liz Palmer There was one guy. 0:57:58.810 --> 0:58:1.370 Liz Palmer He was in law and he was a football player. 0:58:2.410 --> 0:58:7.520 Liz Palmer He was going out with a girl in my class and he called me up and asked me out on a date and I said ohh great and I. 0:58:7.530 --> 0:58:9.420 Liz Palmer But aren't you going out with so and so's? 0:58:9.430 --> 0:58:11.340 Liz Palmer Ohh no, no, no, no, that's all over. 0:58:12.870 --> 0:58:12.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:11.690 --> 0:58:18.330 Liz Palmer So I find out later because no one's talking to me in my class, that she found out that he was going out. 0:58:18.340 --> 0:58:22.810 Liz Palmer He went out with me and I said, well, he told me that you two would split up. 0:58:22.890 --> 0:58:23.550 Liz Palmer We haven't. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:24.710 Liz Palmer I didn't know that. 0:58:25.180 --> 0:58:28.590 Liz Palmer Well, that was the end of that from both sides. 0:58:29.300 --> 0:58:38.250 Liz Palmer But I mean so there was always that kind of stuff that was going on, but he was a I mean we only ever got to the point of going out for a meal or something. 0:58:38.260 --> 0:58:42.270 Liz Palmer And then I'm sure he he wanted to take a further, but there was no. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.370 Liz Palmer But then my friend found out. 0:58:46.940 --> 0:58:47.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:45.380 --> 0:58:48.750 Liz Palmer And then, of course, then the whole class just turned on him, and that was that. 0:58:48.820 --> 0:58:49.590 Liz Palmer But I mean there. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.860 Liz Palmer So that kind of thing happened. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.20 Liz Palmer But that's just the kind of thing that happened to me. 0:58:59.100 --> 0:59:0.240 Philippe Alain Paradis That was your experience. 0:59:0.250 --> 0:59:0.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:54.30 --> 0:59:1.50 Liz Palmer There might have been other things that happened to other women, but I don't know of any of them. Yeah. 0:59:1.70 --> 0:59:8.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And and just casual relationships like that, like they there was, there wasn't much judgment going around regarding that type of thing. 0:59:8.310 --> 0:59:9.40 Liz Palmer Oh no mate. 0:59:8.440 --> 0:59:13.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Like if a woman went with a lot of guys like it wasn't as or, you know, not not to your knowledge. 0:59:13.130 --> 0:59:15.91 Liz Palmer Well, I have to say I i.e. 0:59:15.870 --> 0:59:20.380 Liz Palmer My sister was going out with somebody and their first boyfriend. 0:59:20.390 --> 0:59:21.660 Liz Palmer She's still married to him. 0:59:21.750 --> 0:59:22.890 Liz Palmer 50 some odd years later. 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:30.160 Liz Palmer And he used to say to me, well, you know, you should get a boyfriend. 0:59:30.170 --> 0:59:31.860 Liz Palmer And I said, well, why would I want a boyfriend? 0:59:31.870 --> 0:59:33.340 Liz Palmer I'm meeting all these nice men. 0:59:34.310 --> 0:59:36.970 Liz Palmer We're going out to concerts and I mean nothing ever happened. 0:59:37.810 --> 0:59:39.660 Liz Palmer Uh, but I just didn't find. 0:59:43.830 --> 0:59:44.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:59:39.670 --> 0:59:45.300 Liz Palmer You know, there was just nobody I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with at that point, and that was so, so. 0:59:45.310 --> 0:59:49.740 Liz Palmer But he would, you know, that was from his perspective is that you should have one guy and only go up with one guy. 0:59:49.750 --> 0:59:53.580 Liz Palmer Well, I didn't feel that necessity and I didn't hadn't met the right person. 0:59:53.590 --> 0:59:55.840 Liz Palmer So, so that was different so. 0:59:59.130 --> 1:0:3.300 Liz Palmer But most of the most of my good friends, we all dated lots of different people. 1:0:3.670 --> 1:0:5.860 Liz Palmer We didn't sleep with them, but we dated them. 1:0:6.390 --> 1:0:6.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:6.30 --> 1:0:8.440 Liz Palmer Some of them may have slept with them, but I, you know, I didn't. 1:0:9.300 --> 1:0:9.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:9.590 --> 1:0:10.820 Liz Palmer So that was just me. 1:0:10.870 --> 1:0:14.680 Liz Palmer But then the other thing is is I lived at home, so there was no. 1:0:14.810 --> 1:0:18.380 Liz Palmer That was another big, huge problem for a lot of guys, too. 1:0:19.220 --> 1:0:20.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:0:20.990 --> 1:0:25.770 Philippe Alain Paradis And I imagine what did members of your parents generation to worry about premarital sex a lot. 1:0:26.180 --> 1:0:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Ohh. 1:0:26.110 --> 1:0:27.980 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, they were terrified of it. 1:0:26.410 --> 1:0:28.900 Philippe Alain Paradis Like. Yeah. Yeah. 1:0:28.30 --> 1:0:29.360 Liz Palmer Absolutely terrified of it, yes. 1:0:31.30 --> 1:0:31.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 1:0:31.730 --> 1:0:35.720 Philippe Alain Paradis So like, it sounds like amongst the younger people, it just wasn't much of a thought. 1:0:40.920 --> 1:0:42.170 Liz Palmer Most of, yeah. 1:0:35.730 --> 1:0:42.860 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just normal and OK and but the older crowd that was it was like not there was tension there probably. Umm. 1:0:42.260 --> 1:0:47.290 Liz Palmer Most of our parents felt that it was, you know, premarital sex was just not cause. 1:0:47.360 --> 1:0:53.330 Liz Palmer Most of my friends were Catholic or came from religious or Protestant Jewish families. 1:0:53.750 --> 1:0:56.420 Liz Palmer So you didn't even talk about premarital sex. 1:0:56.430 --> 1:1:5.560 Liz Palmer But but in our generation like that, I mean, I know there were girls that that slept around, but it was no big deal. 1:1:5.570 --> 1:1:6.780 Liz Palmer Like, I mean it wasn't. 1:1:9.330 --> 1:1:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 1:1:7.470 --> 1:1:10.460 Liz Palmer We didn't look down on them or think any less of them. 1:1:10.470 --> 1:1:11.520 Liz Palmer I mean, that was their choice. 1:1:12.900 --> 1:1:13.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 1:1:12.550 --> 1:1:18.440 Liz Palmer But that was also part of the feminist movement at the time, because that was your choice to sleep with whomever you wanted. 1:1:19.550 --> 1:1:20.410 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:1:20.360 --> 1:1:20.520 Liz Palmer Yeah. 1:1:20.420 --> 1:1:22.820 Philippe Alain Paradis So yeah, alright, I've done. 1:1:22.830 --> 1:1:24.110 Philippe Alain Paradis That's every question. 1:1:24.120 --> 1:1:25.660 Philippe Alain Paradis I'll I'll stop the recording real quick. 1:1:26.160 --> 1:1:26.360 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. Transcription Translation 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Pour la première question, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation autour de l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa a une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Donc la première question serait qu'il y avait moins d'électronique au Canada dans les années 70. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Pas du tout. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Alors, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 70 ? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Eh bien, nous allions au pub après l'école. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer Je suis sûre que c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, mais il y avait... 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer On allait voir mon père, on riait. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer Nous allions à la bibliothèque tous les soirs et après la fermeture de la bibliothèque, parce que j'étudiais les soins infirmiers. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer Nous allions donc à la bibliothèque médicale, puis à l'Albion, qui n'existe plus, je crois. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer Il n'existe plus et nous y allions probablement presque tous les soirs. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer Il y avait des danses. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer Nous avons dirigé l'école d'infirmières. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Palmer, Elizabeth Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about life on campus in the University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including social life, and people's views during that time. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, 1:01:37 Language A language of the resource English 1970s Abortion Academics Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Disrcimination Generational Differences Marriage Nursing October Crisis Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Person An individual. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa 1971-75 D'Youville College 1988-90 University of British Columbia 1993-2001 Degree MA PhD Career professional Occupation Nursing 1975-2016 Ethnicity French English Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource L. , F. Person An individual. Birth Date 1956 Birthplace Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Schools Attended Marianopolis College, 1973-74 University of Ottawa, 1974-76, 1976-77 Degree CEGEP BA Career professional Occupation Lawyer Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K, B. Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sunstrum, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed B, M Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (via phone call) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emily: Okay, so section 1 of the interview revolves around the impact of popular culture at the time. So, within the society that you were living in at the time what were electronics like during the 1970’s? How was your leisure time structured? Or what did most students at Oxford do for fun in the 1970s? MB: Well, of course there's no Internet. There's lots of sports and different clubs like, you know, drama club and I mean there was a sort of religious club. The Oxford University Debating Society was very famous. I didn't participate in that sort of organized stuff. We would go to the movies and concerts, lots of concerts. Live music and classical music, not rock music. Of course, the Beetles were really big at the time, they came from the place of England that I had gone to school. Actually, when I was in elementary school, just before I went off to boarding school, the Beetles were just starting out so that would be 1962 and they would come to the village fairs and sing. I would see the Beetles live; I was about 3 feet away. But then they became so big we could never afford to go to their concerts or anything like that. We didn’t watch TV or anything like that. Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? MB: There were lots of pubs at Oxford. But also, there's about 35 colleges at Oxford, there is no sort of university building, and each college would have its sort of bar and dining hall and library and stuff like that. Depending on your cluster of friends at the time you hang out at your college or their college, not many people wanted to hang out at the women’s colleges. The colleges were all single sex at the time except for one, it had just become coed. I was in one of the five women's colleges and there were 30odd men's colleges and some were more prestigious than others. Mine was the most prestigious of the women’s colleges and the men's colleges. There were about 5 or 6 really sort of really ancient but kind of like the place that Prime Ministers went to. So, people from my college tended to date people from those colleges. And there were lots of dances and balls and stuff. When I say balls, I mean you dressed up in black tie, sometimes white tie and women wore evening gowns. Emily: Okay, that’s cool. OK. So, you kind of talked a little bit about this. My next question is, did you attend any live music events during your university years? MB: Yes. So that would be. Chamber music, orchestral music, choral music. I participated in a choir. Just remembered. And we would later on we would, I started going into London. I lived quite a cosmopolitan life; I had never been into London until I started dating an American. And he was studying English, so he wanted to go to all the future he possibly could. So, we would go into London sometimes three times a week to go to, you know, West End theatre or opera or concerts of some sort, you know, classical concerts. Emily: OK, cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So, my next question is, we use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: Well, there's kind of two types. There's the very serious students, you know, sort of nerdy types. And then there's the people like Boris Johnson. Imagine Boris Johnson. Not the least bit atypical. And that goes back to probably the Middle Ages. They had this sort of heavy drinking and throwing people into the river and stuff like that. I'm sort of straddling the two because for one thing there were the proportion of women was very low. So, it's about seven guys to every woman in the university mostly. Especially the ones that went to the sort of prestigious colleges didn’t want to be getting in touch with a potential date and being told “oh sorry I have to study” “I have to finish my lab”. So there are lots of art colleges, you know, people could study art, history, whatever, but it wasn't part of the university. So, these colleges became known for providing the competition to female students. To the point (6:32) where, you know, I’d go to a party with my friends and people would say “where are you” they’d say and you would say “Oh I’m at college” which is very sort of neutral. And they pressed and would say “oh well which college” and then if you said, “well I’m going to ‘the college I went to’” and then they would start looking over your shoulder and say, “Oh I just saw Joe, I’ve got to go talk to him” and that was the end of that conversation. It was a whole, it was a very, somewhat divided sort of feeling. And it’s true, if you wanted to, you know, get your work done, you obviously had to take some time out. But it was definitely a party culture. Some of those young men would go to, they had a club which did not include women where they would go and eat fabulous food because the different colleges had wonderful chefs and then they would drink on ancient port which was in the college cellars. And start throwing oranges at 20 century portraits in the dining hall. You could imagine (8:14) it was not all prim and proper. By the way, King Charles was at Cambridge all this time so lots of people were going back and forth. This is probably too much information, I'm just remembering back how it was lots of fun, extremely creative, extremely stimulating intellectually, we met so many interesting people. So many interesting people would come and give lectures. We were just coming out of the deprivations of World War 2, about 25 years since the war had ended. It was a really really depressed society after that, lots of building going on and things started to settle down in the 70s. That’s around the time Britain on its second effort joined the European economic community(10:04), which they have since left. But it's hard to imagine going from really destroyed major towns close to where my family was living at the time, like Liverpool and Manchester. I mean Liverpool was just completely, chunks of it were flattened, burning. Emily: OK, so my next question is what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? MB: Well, I think initially, it was a very conservative place, Oxford. Lots of people's parents were sort of establishment figures, and you know, stockbrokers and bankers and stuff like that. And you know, my old father was an industrialist. And so, they were horrified by the threat of communism and stuff like that. So. I think initially it was sort of, well, let those guys get on with it, but they should be doing bad things. But we shouldn't intervene. But then very quickly, the student body, certainly as the defining thing that happened right before I went off to university was the movement in France (12:31) and Germany and in the Eastern European countries as trying to throw over government and become equitable and especially stop the war. So, there was a huge engagement in the May of 68 riots in France that sort of shut everything down and Germany and so on. Lots of radical movements. So, a wind has started to build at Oxford, and we actually did have some marches and demonstrations and we found out that the deans of the different colleges and also sort of leadership of the university were identifying students who might be good candidates for let's say MI5 or the spy agency and they were forwarding information to these services and saying “oh you might want to interview this person or that person” and that person would get invited to London to have a nice conversation. Of course, we were horrified that the university authorities were sending information to try to identify students who were good candidates without their permission or consent. So, that was the rallying cry at Oxford, of course some of those people went on to work with allies like the United States, which could of course get themselves involved in the war. The cold war was in full swing and that by the way was a terrifying thing that was always around us, sort of equivalent to the climate change crisis today. And a lot of the students were activists against nuclear arms, so people used to go on marches to you know, ban the bomb. My parents took me to visit a boarding school when they were looking for a good school to send me too and it was a very famous school and known for its academics and stuff like that and nice buildings, walking around like a college tour. And then my mother said, “but where are all the girls”, the teacher said, “they're in London at a ban the bomb march”. And it was a quaker school (15:47), run by quaker and they were pro-peace so my parents said “oh we can’t send our daughter there”. But yes the attitude of the Vietnam war, the circles that I ended up in, were very much against the war. But it took a while for me too, it was very hard to sort of when you’ve heard for years this very negative view of students, I mean in the family, of students to rise up and say we should do this, we shouldn’t do this. To sort of switch to the, when we went on marches there were TV cameras and I sort of said “oh what if my father sees me on TV” then I just stopped worrying about it. I don’t think he ever did. Emily: So, my next question for this section is Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Was Rock and Roll becoming popular within this society that you were living in? And if so, did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? MB: They probably thought it was rebellious, but I went to boarding school, I didn’t really live at home much after I was 10. I just saw them on Holidays but also sometimes I went to Holidays somewhere else. So, in a sense we got to make up our own minds, initially I didn’t like the Beetles at all. I would sort of run into them at those village fairs (17:45) and then, I remember, in the summer of 63’ or spring of 63’ we went to this village festival and they would crown the rose queen every year and it was usually a little girl like 14 or something like that and she had little page boys who were much younger and she was dressed in this sort of beautiful queen dress with a velvet cape. And the Beetles started setting up over where they had the stage and amps and stuff like that, and the crowd started to rush over there, and they trampled over the train of the rose queen. I was just horrified; I was very anti Beetles for a couple of years and after that I liked them. I remember for my birthday one year my parents took me to the Beetles movie “Help” that came out, it was pre-made I guess in Liverpool, so we went to go see it. So, in that sense they were supportive, “what movie would you like to see? Ok the Beetles, let's do that then.” But I didn’t have a radio, my sister who was a bit younger, acquired a portable radio, I should have mentioned, that’s probably more like the electronics of the era. But she would do all her homework, everything, going to bed at night, she had to have this radio on and people in the family did not like it. I couldn’t imagine having the radio going when you’re trying to work on something. So that’s another part of the evolution. Emily: OK. That's my next question is some youth culture. Voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were drugs available at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: I don’t know how widespread it was. I became aware of drugs when I became aware of Americans. Oxford has this program called road scholarships and students came from commonwealth countries and also the United States (20:26) and Canada but because the US had the biggest pool of students, they always had the largest number of scholarships. So, I became aware of these students who, for the most part, had already graduated, they already had their undergraduate and they were always like 3-4 years older than us, and they were very puerile young men of our cousins of our friends from school who didn’t like dating actual college students, these young men were completely open to that. But some of them had gotten into using drugs in the states and some of them had served in the forces in Vietnam and they would come back and say “we’ve got to end this” so there was quite a bit of it. I never bought it myself, but I did use it a few times. To be honest I’d be quite happy to use it but it made me paranoid that it was the drugs that was doing it, not me. That’s a side effect that some people experience. There was lots of booze. Emily: Right, ok. That’s all for the first section. So. Now we're moving on to the second section, which is the female experience. So, my main question for this section is culture. Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement. Women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Oxford campus during the 1970s? MB: Absolutely. can I just do a parenthesis and go back a bit Because this reminds me of the student movements and the the radicalism that was building up on other campuses, I would say partly triggered by the Vietnam War, which is all part of the Cold War. The thing that really changed my view happened between when I graduated high school and I've already been admitted to Oxford, and I spend a few months off and started at Oxford in the fall of 69’. There was a Czech student who burned themself to death and it was all about the, sorry I hope that’s not triggering for you Emily: No, that’s okay. MB: The communist Eastern European countries that were under the Soviet domination started to rise up (23:46) in Czechoslovakia in particular had what was called a Prague spring. They were moving more into representative democracy or trying too throughout 1968 and I was completely unaware of that and then this young man, that seemed like my age I actually don’t know how old he was, in January of 69’ so it’s before we went off to France and he burned himself to death. And from that moment, he was protesting the Soviet occupation which was still gradually wiping out the liberal experiment of the Prague spring. And that got me into thinking more about politics and economics as well and then I went to France and lived there for 9 months until university started. I was doing an internship in a chemical firm. And the student people that I started hanging around with were having a lot of activisms on the anniversary of the events of May, 68’ so May of 69’ they had general strikes and so on and it all succeeded forcing the President to resign. So that was also an activated moment that got me thinking about how politics work and I was a very nerdy science student. I was trying to go up to Oxford to read engineering and I was starting to get cold feet about engineering, so I ended up doing physics but by the time I became activated or engaged, I eventually took my high degree of math's and moved over into economics, politics and philosophy where I went into economics. But there was a feminist side to that, in that it was very unusual for women to even do pure science much less engineering. Only one other girl entered to do engineering (26:20) at the same time I did, but of course I dropped it and switched to physics and became the first woman in the history of Britain to become to head of the Engineers association of Britain and this was like 10 years ago. Thats how unequal things were for women at the time and of course it persisted and it's still persisting like we’ve had more women prime ministers for example. I was lucky that I went to an all-girls school so there was no negative thought through the school of doing science, other people would say things like “oh she should be careful because it's hard to be in a lab with just men”. But the other big thing we did during my time at Oxford, so 69’-74’, we gradually pushed and pushed, this was in between sort of major world type movements and individual actions like this idea to become a schoolteacher, so this middling thing at the university level, we pushed to get more colleges to become co-ed. Rach college had its own rules so it happened very gradually, I think most of them are co-ed now. But they would say things like, we had staff, cleaning staff that would come and make up people's rooms and the deans would say “we can't possibly have co-ed colleges because men and women would sleep together”. If the staff came in in the morning and found a man and woman in the same bed, then they would quit so they couldn’t keep the staff. After a bit somebody said, “well maybe we don’t need to go in the bedrooms” and then the answers were (29:13) “well the staff are there to make sure there aren't any young men in your room”, it took a while to get that changed. And the same thing was happening at the time in the US in the ivy league, I don’t know if the dorms at U of O might have been going through the same thing, whether or not they should have co-ed residences. One of our heroes for women and men by the way from American university was Angela Davis. She was a very left-wing activist in the US, and she was jailed at the time, and it was to do with having guns and trials and stuff like that and she became one of our heroes. One of our marches was about free Angela Davis, I think at one point she may have come later on when she was released in 72’, she came and lectured at Oxford. Emily: So, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. So how did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events? MB: I kind of alluded to a whole bunch, do you want me to repeat some of it? Emily: You don't have to repeat it all, but just a little bit of a summary would be good (31:06). MB: Yeah, ok. Well, all but one of the residential colleges of about 35 were single sex, the proportion of women on the university campus was very low and the anecdote about when you would go to social events, many of the men had gone to similar high schools and were the same age as us and in our same classes didn’t particularly want to date women confronting the same work load, deadlines and things that they were. So, we ended up drifting towards grad students or maybe Americans or Canadians. And we were very active on the topic of making things co-ed, you had to enroll in the college, its not like choosing your dorm after you’ve been accepted so if you were in a particiular college you would discover that it was very strict on keeping men and women separate. People used to do things like siging in and out of college, they had these gate hours that the staff had to monitor. So my college closed at 11 so you knew you had to be back inside by 11 o’clock. If you knew you had something that was going to end later, you could sign out a key, but it was really a big deal. What people would do is they would climb over the walls, sometimes injuring themselves, a couple people were killed, probably they were drunk, but they wanted to get in and out so that’s what they would do. Or they stayed out all night. Emily: So, my next question then is in the 1970s were there programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? MB: I'm not really aware of any. I know that some of my contemporaries, from school age contemporary, not a classmate but somebody I knew, went onto to become the first woman president of the Oxford debating union society but I can't even remember when that was (33:58), it happened after I left. But we certainly were aware of women who graduated from Oxford went onto political success in their respective country so like the first woman Prime Minister anywhere I think had gone to Oxford. Margaret Thatcher went to Oxford, actually the 3 woman PMs were all conservative interesting enough and they all went to Oxford. Emily: So that's it for the feminism section. My next question has to do with ideology and generational differences. So, historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? (35:51) MB: I mean that would be 100% what was going through my mind at the time. I started off as a very focused on a very technical career and I mean I have to say my father was an engineer so that was partly the only role model I had. But that meant lots of very serious studying and you didn’t do much reading around other things and then I became engaged in the particular incidents gradually. We weren’t really in our families you know, so it wasn’t a case of going home every evening or week or month or something and having to argue this stuff out with your parents. You could carry on with your own way of thinking, form your own ideas. I mean they were very interested; I don’t want to make it out that they were not interested in these kinds of things, but they weren’t particularly day to day observing whether you skipped classes or whatever. The good thing is you didn’t have to go to lectures there, the key thing is having tutorials one on one and working on a research project and preparing that with your tutor. I would start every single term planning to go to lectures because there were so many interesting ones but then I would get so much work on my plate (37:39), I had my social life and my activism that I didn’t have time to go to lectures. Because it wasn’t obligatory, that was the one thing that was sort of laid back. I did work in mini-shorts and stuff like that, flower child clothes and certainly the young conservative clubs where people like Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May and Liz Truss were making their mark. But they were very serious political wonks, so they weren’t going to go dressing up like flower children, they were all suits and ties and stuff like that. Of course, when we went to dances and balls, we were all elegantly dressed. Emily: OK, so then my next question is to what extent did your generation believe that your parents' notion about gender family dating were outdated? MB: Well, I guess I probably did feel that, I didn’t really confront them, but I did leave Britain right after I finished all the various bits of studying that I did there, and I didn’t go back for a decade. And it was really because I began to be aware, especially well young men, because road scholarships at that time were only open to men. By the way you couldn’t be married to accept a road scholarship. There were all kinds of romances that had originated from these ivy league universities or whatever universities were sending those. And they had to put off their plans for over a year if they wanted a scholarship but then they would meet their eventual wives and they would come over and then I realized these kind had a much more equal relationship than I thought other people, my parents, my aunts and uncles and so on, their relationship did not seem to be so equal and I thought wow there's a certain respect here, they could open their own banking account, I had to get my father to open my account for me. And, you know, I really thought the US (40:11), I was watching what was happening with water gate that was opening up, the protest against the Vietnam war and the water gate breaking and I don’t know if you’ve been looking but it was just the 50th anniversary recently, it was just amazing to see that unfolding and then when they moved to the US, it was actually the first year I was living there, was a combination of water gate and the resignation of Britain in 1974. It was just to me, the most dramatic thing that the government could be, I've seen that happen in France with the goal it 69’ and here it was France was even more socially stratified in gender imbalance society than Britain. But I thought wow you could have really a self-respecting career or life in this place. And I remember my mother saying to me, “but don’t you realize that all these men that you met who are American or Canadian at Oxford are the best of the best, the people that you'll find there are probably not very friendly or feminist or very welcoming to women” and at first I thought yes that’s a good point but then I thought well actually the young men that I met that were British were also supposed to be the best of the best and I was finding them wanting so I thought guess I'll try so I did. Of course, there's lots more nuance to American politics and British politics and French politics. Emily: So yeah, so, my next question is, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizen's needs? MB: In Britain? Emily: Yes, when you were in university in the 1970s MB: No, not at all, I felt that it was extremely trapped in ancient stereotypes, some of those things were very obvious in the single sex colleges and schools. The famous schools don’t accept co-ed students either. But the economy was clearly very biased towards men (42:51). I mean I quite enjoyed when I was still thinking I was going to be an engineer, my father eventually came around and thought it was kind of a neat thing so he started finding out if there was anything that could show yiung women what it might be like to be an engineer. So, like a winter program of two weeks at a university, sort of a lab or an internship or something, so he found a few things like that. I quite liked being the only, or one of two women in those programs, you know you get a lot of attention. And I don’t mean sexual attention, it was just the idea that “here they are doing all their stuff” and then I would stick up my hand say something, and they would all listen but then quite often just carry on what they were doing before. Anyway, it was yes. These things go in lurches I've of course discovered since then, those political changes and economic, I won't say equality, but justice shall we say. Emily: OK, so then, looking back at the 1970s, what aspects of your society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? (44:19) MB: Sorry what aspects of the time seemed out of whack? Emily: Yes, like when you were in university MB: Well, I think the gender imbalances and the fact that political action was concentrated in very small, tight, circles. I mean Bill Clinton was there when I was at Oxford, I think Hillary too. I didn’t know them though, but these people were all floating around, creating their own establishment. But to me watching the televised hearing of how I saw it was a very good exercise in democracy and seeing how lawyers, a lot of whose assistants were people I had been studying with, to being assistant to the prosecutors. Really opened things up but now of course you look back on that and sort of say “well you know, Jim Jordan holds hearings and it's just a political rant you know”. So, it's things lurch and sometimes they go back, 2 steps forward you hope, 1 and a half steps back. Emily: So, I have one more section for you. Um. And my first question is cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? MB: I'm not sure I agree with all of it but certainly I'm not aware of any of my little group of friends that was not on the pill (46:26). I think there were probably many that were Catholics and were not but in my circle. Everyone knew there was a particular place you could go for abortions; I don’t remember when it became legalized, I don’t think it was legal at the time in Britain, I don’t think it was legal until after I left, but there was a place you could go. I mean I never used it because the pill is pretty effective. And I think it did make us a little more, I suspect, I mean I don’t have any older brothers, but I suspect it made us a little more free and easy about dating. By the way we werent completely subject to exactly the same sort of para relationships and psychological abuse as others. Emily: Then what did dating look like on campus in the 1970s? MB: Well, you met people at parties, there's no internet, and we called them cattle market and that’s where people would look at you and go “oh my god you go to college, you’re a university student oh nah”. They preferred to date people that didn’t have other commitments, they wanted to be able to decide when to go on a date and not be told that they had to do a paper or a project or lab or something like that. You know people did pair up, they had their relationships and some of them got married right after university so that was in a sense very 1950’s conventional. I went through a whole phase “oh I'm never going to get married” and then I mean they guy I did marry; I'm still married to (49:02), I met him when I went to Alberta and I thought I was just moving there briefly but I've been here in Canada ever since, about 45 years ago, sort of a love at first sight paradigm. I certainly left Britain on my own initiative and a couple of guys from the States I had known and even dated at Oxford, they would say things like “I really like you why don’t we just get married” and I kind of said “No, I don’t want to get married”. So, I think that liberated me in a sense that not to get into a situation that would be more complicated than it needed to be. I had lots of issues with the whole 5 years before I lived in the US, I had constantly tried to get my visa extended. Emily: I feel like this kind of ties into a little bit of what you were saying just then but my last question is how did your generation look at family and marriage? MB: Many of us were quite determined not to get married and then later on even when we had got married not to have children. I think you still hear some of that but of course it happened so we kind of changed that for the world. And by the way, I don’t know if this is part of your thinking at all but, gay life at Oxford was extremely well established (51:16) and quite common and that goes back centuries and that’s because it was all male for so long. And profs could not be married so they kept their families outside the city limits or outside the limits of the university jurisdiction but that was only in late 19th century. But you could think people like the guy who wrote “Alice in Wonderland” he was a very typical Oxford prof. And it was I wouldn’t say celebrated, gayness, but it was definitely, and the other thing is because it was World War 2 a lot of the school teachers and I, which happened to be in Oxford had no boyfriends or there weren’t any young men around or maybe they weren’t interested in young men. And so, it was perfectly normal for two women to be living together and my math teacher and gym teacher and on and on and on and you were totally not bothered by it. When I was in my upper classes in high school, I started going to clubs and parties at Oxford events and you'd see certain young men and you’d say, “oh I kind of like that guy” and then a bit later you’d realize “oh he's with this other guy, that’s fine”. It was legalized in Britain in 1968 (53:18) so right away from the time I was at boarding school it was illegal and the when I went to university it was legal. It was certainly a very open... Emily: It was accepted MB: Ya, accepted, that’s a better way of putting it because I'm sure there was a lot of prejudice elsewhere in Britain and probably Cambridge and some of the other universities were very much welcoming and supportive. Emily: Well, that is all the questions that I have for you today. MB: I hope I wasn't too much of a fire hose Emily: No that’s okay, thank you so much for your time (55:17) Transcription Translation Emily : D'accord, la première partie de l'entretien porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire de l'époque. Au sein de la société dans laquelle vous viviez à l'époque, à quoi ressemblait l'électronique dans les années 1970 ? Comment était structuré votre temps libre ? Ou que faisaient la plupart des étudiants d'Oxford pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? MB : Bien sûr, il n'y avait pas d'Internet. Il y avait beaucoup de sports et différents clubs comme, vous savez, le club de théâtre et je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de club religieux. La Oxford University Debating Society était très célèbre. Je ne participais pas à ce genre d'activités organisées. Nous allions au cinéma et à des concerts, beaucoup de concerts. De la musique live et de la musique classique, pas de la musique rock. Bien sûr, les Beetles étaient très populaires à l'époque, ils venaient de la région d'Angleterre où j'étais allé à l'école. En fait, lorsque j'étais à l'école primaire, juste avant d'aller à l'internat, les Beetles commençaient à peine, c'était en 1962, et ils venaient chanter dans les foires de village. J'ai vu les Beetles en concert ; j'étais à un mètre de distance. Mais ils sont devenus si importants que nous n'avons jamais pu nous permettre d'aller à leurs concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre. Nous ne regardions pas la télévision. Emily : Oui, ça a l'air bien. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? MB : Il y avait beaucoup de pubs à Oxford. Mais il y a aussi 35 collèges à Oxford, il n'y a pas de bâtiment universitaire, et chaque collège a son bar, son réfectoire, sa bibliothèque, etc. En fonction de votre groupe d'amis à ce moment-là, vous fréquentez votre collège ou leur collège, mais peu de gens voulaient fréquenter les collèges de femmes. Les universités étaient toutes unisexes à l'époque, à l'exception d'une seule, qui venait de devenir mixte. J'étais dans l'une des cinq universités féminines et il y avait une trentaine d'universités masculines, dont certaines étaient plus prestigieuses que d'autres. La mienne était la plus prestigieuse des universités féminines et masculines. Il y en avait 5 ou 6 qui étaient vraiment très anciens, mais qui ressemblaient un peu à l'endroit où allaient les Premiers ministres. Les gens de mon collège avaient donc tendance à sortir avec des gens de ces collèges. Il y avait beaucoup de danses, de bals et d'autres choses. Quand je parle de bals, je veux dire qu'on s'habillait en cravate noire, parfois en cravate blanche et les femmes portaient des robes de soirée. Emily : D'accord, c'est cool. D'ACCORD. Vous en avez un peu parlé. Ma prochaine question est la suivante : avez-vous assisté à des événements musicaux pendant vos années d'université ? MB : Oui. Je dirais donc que c'est le cas. Musique de chambre, musique orchestrale, musique chorale. J'ai participé à une chorale. Je m'en souviens. Plus tard, j'ai commencé à aller à Londres. Je vivais une vie assez cosmopolite ; je n'étais jamais allée à Londres jusqu'à ce que je sorte avec un Américain. Et comme il étudiait l'anglais, il voulait aller dans tous les futurs qu'il pouvait. Nous allions donc à Londres parfois trois fois par semaine pour aller au théâtre du West End, à l'opéra ou à des concerts classiques. Emily : OK, cool. Oui, ça a l'air cool. Ma question suivante est la suivante : nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête " pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Oxford dans les années 1970 ? MB : Eh bien, il y a deux types d'étudiants. Il y a les étudiants très sérieux, les intellos. Et puis il y a les gens comme Boris Johnson. Imaginez Boris Johnson. Pas le moins du monde atypique. Et cela remonte probablement au Moyen-Âge. Les gens buvaient beaucoup, jetaient les gens dans les rivières, etc. Je suis en quelque sorte à cheval entre les deux parce que, d'une part, la proportion de femmes était très faible. Il y a environ sept hommes pour une femme à l'université. En particulier, celles qui allaient dans des universités prestigieuses ne voulaient pas entrer en contact avec une fille potentielle et se faire dire "oh, désolé, je dois étudier" "je dois finir mon labo". Il existe donc de nombreuses écoles d'art, où l'on peut étudier l'art, l'histoire ou autre chose, mais qui ne font pas partie de l'université. C'est ainsi que ces écoles sont devenues célèbres pour la concurrence qu'elles offraient aux étudiantes. À tel point que, lorsque j'allais à une fête avec mes amis, les gens me demandaient "Où es-tu ?" et vous répondiez "Oh, je suis à l'université", ce qui est tout à fait neutre. Ils insistaient et disaient "Oh, quelle université" et si vous répondiez "Eh bien, je vais à l'université où je suis allé", ils commençaient à regarder par-dessus votre épaule et disaient "Oh, je viens de voir Joe, il faut que j'aille lui parler" et c'était la fin de la conversation. C'était un sentiment très, très divisé. Et c'est vrai, si vous vouliez, vous savez, faire votre travail, vous deviez évidemment prendre un peu de temps pour vous. Mais c'était vraiment une culture de la fête. Certains de ces jeunes hommes se rendaient dans un club qui n'incluait pas de femmes, où ils allaient manger des plats fabuleux parce que les différents collèges avaient de merveilleux chefs, puis ils buvaient du porto ancien qui se trouvait dans les caves des collèges. Et ils commençaient à jeter des oranges sur des portraits du 20ème siècle dans le réfectoire. Vous pouvez imaginer que tout n'était pas rose et correct. D'ailleurs, le roi Charles était à Cambridge pendant tout ce temps, si bien que beaucoup de gens allaient et venaient. C'est probablement trop d'informations, mais je me souviens simplement que c'était très amusant, très créatif, très stimulant intellectuellement, et que nous avons rencontré tant de gens intéressants. Nous avons rencontré tant de personnes intéressantes. Tant de personnes intéressantes venaient donner des conférences. Nous sortions tout juste des privations de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, environ 25 ans après la fin de la guerre. La société était vraiment très déprimée après cela, il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours et les choses ont commencé à se calmer dans les années 70. C'est à cette époque que la Grande-Bretagne, pour son deuxième effort, a rejoint la Communauté économique européenne, qu'elle a quittée depuis. Mais il est difficile d'imaginer la destruction des grandes villes proches de l'endroit où ma famille vivait à l'époque, comme Liverpool et Manchester. Je veux dire que Liverpool a été complètement détruite, des pans entiers de la ville ont été rasés, brûlés. Emily : D'accord, alors ma question suivante est : que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? MB : Eh bien, je pense qu'au départ, c'était un endroit très conservateur, Oxford. Les parents de beaucoup de gens étaient des figures de l'establishment, des agents de change, des banquiers, etc. Et vous savez, mon père était un industriel. Ils étaient donc horrifiés par la menace du communisme et ce genre de choses. Donc. Je pense qu'au départ, c'était un peu comme si on laissait ces gens faire ce qu'ils voulaient, mais qu'ils devaient faire de mauvaises choses. Mais nous ne devrions pas intervenir. Mais très vite, le corps étudiant, certainement parce que la chose déterminante qui s'est produite juste avant que je n'entre à l'université a été le mouvement en France et en Allemagne et dans les pays d'Europe de l'Est pour essayer de se débarrasser du gouvernement et de devenir équitable, et surtout d'arrêter la guerre. Les émeutes de mai 68 en France, qui ont en quelque sorte tout bloqué, ainsi qu'en Allemagne et dans d'autres pays, ont été l'occasion d'un engagement considérable. Beaucoup de mouvements radicaux. Nous avons découvert que les doyens des différents collèges et la direction de l'université identifiaient les étudiants susceptibles d'être de bons candidats pour le MI5 ou l'agence d'espionnage, par exemple, et qu'ils transmettaient des informations à ces services en disant : "Oh, vous voudrez peut-être interviewer telle ou telle personne" et que cette personne était invitée à Londres pour avoir une conversation agréable. Bien sûr, nous étions horrifiés que les autorités universitaires envoient des informations pour tenter d'identifier les étudiants qui étaient de bons candidats sans leur permission ou leur consentement. C'était donc le cri de ralliement à Oxford, et bien sûr, certaines de ces personnes sont allées travailler avec des alliés comme les États-Unis, qui pouvaient bien sûr s'impliquer dans la guerre. La guerre froide battait son plein et c'était d'ailleurs une chose terrifiante qui nous entourait en permanence, une sorte d'équivalent de la crise du changement climatique aujourd'hui. Beaucoup d'étudiants militaient contre l'armement nucléaire et organisaient des marches pour interdire la bombe. Mes parents m'ont emmenée visiter un internat lorsqu'ils cherchaient une bonne école où m'envoyer. Il s'agissait d'une école très réputée, connue pour ses études et d'autres choses du même genre, avec de beaux bâtiments, où l'on se promenait comme dans une visite d'université. Et puis ma mère a dit, "mais où sont toutes les filles", le professeur a répondu, "elles sont à Londres à une marche pour l'interdiction des bombes". C'était une école de quakers, dirigée par des quakers et ils étaient pour la paix, alors mes parents ont dit "oh, nous ne pouvons pas envoyer notre fille là-bas". Mais oui, l'attitude à l'égard de la guerre du Viêt Nam, les cercles dans lesquels je me suis retrouvée, étaient très opposés à la guerre. Mais il m'a fallu un certain temps pour que, après avoir entendu pendant des années cette vision très négative des étudiants, je veux dire dans la famille, les étudiants se lèvent et disent que nous devrions faire ceci, que nous ne devrions pas faire cela. Lorsque nous avons participé à des marches, il y avait des caméras de télévision et je me suis dit "Oh, et si mon père me voyait à la télévision", puis j'ai cessé de m'en préoccuper. Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais fait. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B, M (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonal about the life on campus of Oxford University in the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 1970s Abortion Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Hippies Oxford, England Physics Popular Music Protest Queer Sexuality Student Life The Pill Vietnam Person An individual. Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1970-1974 Degree BA Career administrative Ethnicity French Religious Culture chose not to respond Devotional Life chose not to respond Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M, P. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Trepanier, Kaelan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Voisard, Yvette Location The location of the interview Gatineau, Quebec, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 00:00:03 - KT: So, uh cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. KT: Um You didn't grow up in Ottawa but you grew up in Verdun, um was, was Verdun bilingual? YV: Yes KT: Um, at the time. YV: Yeah, yeah. KT: Um So we want to understand better how anglophones and francophones kind of related to each other. YV: Well, they didn't. As far as I can remember, we didn't participate in anything with the, with the French uh community. YV: Um As a like a student, it was completely separate, the school systems were completely separate. If we participated in sports in school, Uh we played English schools, we didn't play French schools. KT: OK. YV: Okay, um What was integrated, it was hockey. Like my brother would play and he always had, there were always French players on the team as well. Okay, so maybe with the boys section or maybe because of the type of sport there was more interaction. YV: Um My mom and dad uh neighbors were all English. Okay. YV: Uh are the big gang that we were in? Like we were about 12 kids in there okay, most of them were all English. The parents might have been French, okay, but the kids, all, we all grew up, they became English. We didn't become French. KT: Yup. YV: Okay? They became English. YV: And so we’d join our gang. So there wasn't a lot of like sharing, KT: Yup. YV: And that was probably part of the problem that led to the quote revolution. KT: Yep. YV: Okay, yeah. KT: Do you think they became English because their parents saw English as a good way to kind of, uh? 00:02:00 - YV: I, I'm, I'm not too sure. YV: Um I do know that I once applied for a job at a bank and I had written my application letter in French and I was phoned up immediately for the job. Okay? KT: Hm. YV: But I didn't have a good linguistic background, oral. KT: Okay. YV: So I had to tell the guy that, okay, but he was looking for people who were bilingual who could speak French to work in the bank as a clerk, KT: Yep. YV: and he couldn't find them. KT: So, YV: couldn't find them. YV: You wanna go out? YV: You know. So there was a problem with the, the friendship. I mean, there was a divide, there was, it was there. YV: Come on, you wanna go out? Come on. YV: Sorry about that. I didn't expect to have KT: um uh huh. Yeah. YV: Even when I worked as a waitress, everything was in English. The menus were in English. I served in English. Uh people ordered in English even though they may have been French. Okay. KT: When did that change? YV: Well, we, you know, they started talking about uh using the proper French words for, for like,so I started using Guimauve for marshmallow and the French people didn't understand what I'm talking about. KT: Yep, [giggles] YV: So, you know, so there was so much English involved, I think in their language that they were using our words far more than we were using any French terms. KT: Yep. 00:03:57 - YV: Okay. But obviously it started to change then because that's in, uh, 19 Duplessis was out. Okay. Bourrassa was in so they probably started at that point, you know, thinking about the French culture and stuff like that. KT: Um So I grew up with, I grew up in Point Clare, which is in the West Island. And the way that I've grown up is um basically everything like West of Dorval is English, right? KT: English and not rich. But you got, you got some money, you know. Um and then everything East of that is much more French and they don't have as much money. KT: Would you say it's kind of the same thing or similar? YV: Yeah, yeah yeah. In Verdun, It was divided up in such a way that um there was a place called Crawford Park down at this end, and that was very English and had much more money than where I was living. Okay? YV: I was living where the the there were three floors in the apartment block. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay? And so the tenements are both French or English. So you could be living um on the first floor, for example, we lived in one place on the first floor and we were English but the people upstairs were French. Okay. That kind of thing. YV: So there was a mixed bank and then further down that way, towards the East of Montreal. You're talking Pointe Saint Charles. KT: Yep. YV: More French. KT: Okay. YV: So it went from very, very English, a mix and then very, very French. KT: Interesting. KT: Did you notice any um, economic differences? Like where the English people, did they have more money or? YV: they had, they had, they would have a car. KT: Okay. YV: Like my mom, my mom and dad didn't have a car. The kids would be better dressed. Okay, than us. Okay. 00:05:54 - YV: Um, they would be going to, uh, things like, uh, the auditorium or the movies or something like that far more frequently than we would. YV: They didn't participate in the, the park situation. Okay, the playground situation. YV: Verdun had a very, very active playground situation for kids. You could go to the playground and be there from 9 to 9 and there was, there were monitors. YV: I was a monitor, there were monitors there all day who did eight hour shifts and then every hour there was a scheduled activity. Could have been art, dance, take the kids for a baseball game, you know, a shag bet game, take them swimming, all, all kinds of stuff. Okay. YV: Where I worked it was 100% crowded. At the other end, not so. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, because they were able to, they might have had a cottage and were able to go away on the weekend and stuff like that. KT: Yep. YV: Okay KT: Um, so obvious, obviously there was a lot less electronics in society back when you were in university. Um, how was your leisure time structured or, did you have any? YV: Well, well, high school or university? KT: Uh, uh university. YV: University? Oh, that one’s a toughie, because I didn't have much leisure time. Okay. 00:07:39 - YV: Classes, like, sometimes because of labs, like Abby, finish long. Didn't have night classes, but when I used to get home, okay ,then I would have to do whatever homework and assignments I had to do. So I did not have a lot of leisure time. Okay and then when I started working that was even less because I worked Friday nights, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday and then started. YV: So it was no, I didn't have much leisure time. YV: I managed to go to the odd hockey game with Morris, the movie. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, but apart from that, not a lot. And of course, like maybe a Tuesday night have basketball games. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, and then in the spring and in the fall, you know, baseball, KT: Yep. YV: but that was very often on an afternoon because not all the parks had lights to work in the evening. KT: Wow. YV: Okay, so you had to have your games during the, KT: Yeah. YV: the afternoon. Yeah. KT: Um. YV: I did a lot of reading. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, I did a lot of reading on my own. Um, KT: Was that books from the library or? YV: some of them were from the, a lot of them were from the library. My mom for my birthday and Christmas would buy me books, but I would tell her which ones to go. And there was only one English bookstore that you sort of went to, and that was the classics. YV: Okay. Which was taken over by Indigo later on. Okay, but that was a long time ago. YV: It's up on Saint Catherine Street near Bishops. Okay. Yeah, so. KT: When, when you were talking about the, um, hockey games, that was the Habs? YV: Yeah, I was a Boston fan though. KT: Ohh. YV: I still am. I've always been, always, always, always, yeah, Morris was a, uh, Montreal Canadians and my, my father was an avid Montreal Canadian fan. My mother could care less, and my sisters. KT: No. YV: No. Okay. And then the two boys got into hockey and once they were finished hockey, Paul and I never went back to another game. KT: Hm. YV: That was it. 00:09:52 - KT: Was, it, um, was, it as big as it is now? like the Habs? YV: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. KT: Those were the years. YV: Yeah, those were the years and there were few rules on the ice. Okay, I mean, uh, helmets, players didn't wear helmets. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. So, completely different. Although kids wore helmets, I'm pretty sure that Marcel had a helmet when he played, you know, but pick up hockey, KT: Mhm. YV: nobody wore a helmet. KT: Yep. YV: No, KT: Hm. YV: no. KT: Um, so transitioning to, um, campus, um, where, what were the most popular hangout spots on campus and then off campus as well? YV: Well, of course there was a Union building at McGill Okay. Um, you have to remember you weren't allowed in bars. So, you know, that was, uh, you were checked, KT: Yep. YV: you were checked all the time. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: If you went in. Okay. So that was a hard, a hard one to go to. So it would have had to have been a, something like a, a restaurant place where, you know, a local restaurant. You wouldn't be allowed in, uh, downtown Montreal into a place. Okay, yeah, one of the, KT: Mhm. YV: you couldn't get into the contiki, for example, that was a bar and dinner place you had to show your, KT: ID. YV: ID to get KT: Yep. YV: into them, you know. So, so, uh, so, uh, hangouts would have been local areas where, like I said, the boardwalk KT: Yep. YV: and the movie theater and, you know, places around the, a baseball field or where people skated and played hockey during the winter time, you know. YV: So, um, even, even in university, I mean, I was 20 when I graduated from university, I wasn't allowed in the, I mean, I did go, you know, KT: Yep. YV: but, you know, if I was carded, that was, that was it, goodbye! You know, KT: Yep. YV: hold the lead. KT: Were there any hangout spots on campus? Um. 00:11:56 - YV: No, not at our place. Um, M McGill. I can't remember at McGill, I can't remember. Um, there was nothing at the medical building and there was nothing at Loyola that I can remember. YV: Okay, so it would have been just the Union Building. KT: Is that I know, uh, campuses now have spots built to, to hang out, you know? Did they back then? YV: No, KT: No YV: no, I think that came as a KT: Later. YV: Yeah. KT: Yeah, okay. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, how linguistically integrated was Marianopolis? YV: Wasn’t. KT: at all? YV: Right. No, it was English. KT: Yeah. Um, YV: It was English. KT: um, were there any French, um, people that, that tried to go there? YV: Oh, I wouldn’t know that. KT: Okay. YV: That I wouldn't know. And I don't, like, I never had a French student, uh, classmate. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, in my science classes? KT: Yep. YV: Okay. There might have been some in the, uh, b A programs. KT: Mhm. YV: I wouldn't know. I didn't hang around with them. We were too busy. You didn't have time enough to hang around with them, you know? So, I don't know. I don't know. KT: Um, the whole party culture that we refer to now, uh, referring to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe that? It doesn't have to be parties but like you mentioned the boardwalk, um, and how that was popular? YV: Well, that was, that was a hangout for, um, you know, from the spring through to the fall. Okay because it closed down, the building, the boardwalk building KT: Mhm. YV: closed down over the winter time. But when you went there, they always had the beau the beauty of it. Uh, even if you didn't, you couldn't drink inside. I mean, I'm not saying that there wasn't any booze on the but there was a whole grass park all the way around it. 00:14:03 - KT: Mhm. So you could, you know, join in the, the music, participate in any music that was coming from there because a lot of it was a DJ or um, a popular band in the area. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. So it was one of those places where you, you know, you, you see in a movie where the girls are all dressed up and hanging out and dancing on the grass or whatever that ki that kind of association. Nothing more, more formal than that. And a lot of times it was just groups of kids. So, so in my gang, we were, good lord, I'm trying to think. We must have been 15, 15 people. YV: We were boys and girls, KT: Mhm. YV: but we didn't pair up as boys and girls. Everybody just met, KT: Yeah. YV: went and did something, then went home and then the next day we re-meet again sometimes it was just a pickup football game or we'd all go to the pool or we'd all go to the movies but it was not so and so was with somebody else and KT: Yeah. YV: so no, it was none of that. YV: Okay? But that was, you know, when I was 18 years old, you know, kind of thing. KT: Mhm YV: There wasn't any uh pairing up and I, I would imagine that a lot of that continued at the boardwalk, okay? YV: Until, you know, I mean, people got married when they were quite young, you know, a lot of my friends were married by the time they were 20 you know. KT: Wow. YV: So, yeah, KT: very different, very different than today. YV: Yeah, very different than today because at the time that's what you did, KT: Yeah. YV: you got married and then you had children and you started with the cycle all over again, KT: Yeah. YV: you know. KT: Um, was there any, like, parties like you would think about today, um, when you're in university that you can think of or was it more like at the bar? Right? There was no house parties. There was 00:15:57 - YV: No, no, there were no house. I, I have never been to any of my associates in class, KT: Mhm. to their, their places. And um never, no, not one KT: Hm. YV: not to Dana's not to Christine. Not, no, no, never. KT: So all the, all the, the hangout spots were outside of, YV: outside of the school and in your own neighborhood. Not, not uh you didn't have a common place where you would get together. KT: So, did you have different friends from school and different friends from where you grew up? YV: Yeah. KT: Did they ever mix? YV: No. KT: Was there anyone where you grew up with them? And they went to the same school? YV: Uh, Gail, I grew up with Gail and she went to Marianapolis as well, but she went in the arts program. KT: Okay. YV: So I didn't see her. KT: Yep. YV: Alright, Christine went into the arts program. Joyce went into the arts program. YV: There weren't a lot of people who went into the science program. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, so once we got there and said hello and whatever in the morning or for a cup of coffee or whatever, then there was, you never saw them? Okay? KT: Yep. YV: And, and we always had a lab, we always had labs. Okay. So you, you would be walking into the, the caf area at four o'clock in the afternoon and there were nobody there, KT: [giggles] YV: just the science people would be there. KT: Yep. YV: You know, we're all doing lab work KT: [giggles] YV: or we're all doing lab reports or we're doing freaking math. Did so much math, KT: Yeah. YV: you know. YV: So, no, it, it's really, really interesting when I think about it because, uh, when you, okay, you come in the door and there's a locker area and then you went up the stairs, there was a washrooms and then they had coffee machines and, you know, like a vending machine, KT: Mhm. YV: not food, coffee, maybe soft drinks. 00:17:57 - YV: Okay, And then you went into what was quote the cafeteria That side was the art side and this side was the science side. KT: Was that on purpose or just? YV: No, it's just the way it happened. Okay., and I think it's because we walked around in our white lab coats the whole day because we were, and we smelled because every single lab produced something that would stink up the place, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, and you just. My, even my mother would say the same thing. KT: [giggles] YV: She pointed to the back and say, take your stuff out there, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, we were that, that bad, you know. YV: So I think that's, and then it just got worse in the sense that you got more involved in your science classes and your lab cla and they got more involved in their thing and you saw less and less and less of,of the friends that you had in high school. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, but you didn't make social friends at university too many like me, KT: Mhm. YV: I, you know, I would leave Friday afternoon and I go to work, you know, so there wasn't much time for socializing and that kind of thing, KT: Yep. YV: you know. KT: Um, I know the Vietnam War came a little bit later. Um, and, you know, Canada, we weren't participating. Um, but what did the, the, what did you guys think about the Vietnam War? Did you know anything about that? YV: Well, I knew about it in the sense that my boyfriend went, was enlisted in there. There were three guys from my area who hung around together who enlisted in the same time. Okay. YV: Morris was killed. The other two were not. YV: Um, but so I did know, uh, about the war in that time but you didn't get anything on TV, until later. Okay, with Walter Conkright and Tom Brokaw and a couple of those guys from CBS. Alright. YV: Don't forget we didn't have the internet. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. 00:19:57 - YV: And if I was lucky I saw news on TV, because I either had to rely on a radio or, or I'd get home at seven o'clock at night and the news would be over because news was from 6 to 7 on TV. Okay. YV: It wasn't, uh, you didn't have CNN that had news all day. KT: Yep. YV: That didn't happen. Okay. News wasn't from 6 to 7 and from 11 to 12. KT: Was there anything in the magazines that you said you were reading? YV: Yes. And Time Magazine, Time would write up stuff on Vietnam, but they wrote what they had to write, you know, like, so you didn't hear a lot about what was going on. You didn't hear about the body count. You didn't hear about the Napalm that was being dropped. KT: Yep. YV: Okay? A lot of that only came out when Nixon came around and, and started to invade Cambodia to try to get to Vietnam. Okay. That's when a lot of the garbage started to show up and the body bags started to come home KT: Yeah. YV: and that was on TV, where they would have the coffins coming off the airplane. And that's when I think people started to realize that this was a war that the Americans were not going to win. KT: Yep. KT: Was there any, um were there any Vietnamese or Asian people where you grew up or you went to school with? YV: No, KT: So, YV: no. Um um there was a Chinatown? Okay. But, and, ok, do you know Montreal? KT: Yeah. YV: You know, Atwater? KT: Yeah. YV: Ok. That whole area was a black area. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, and Chinatown was further East and South. Um, I don't think I even had a black student in class. My school. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, and certainly not an Asian. I don't remember we had Polish, KT: Mhm. 00:22:00 - YV: Hungarian, Czechs, Germans, certainly a lot of English. No French. KT: No. YV: no, there might have been people who spoke French but they weren't French. KT: Yep. YV: French. Okay. So, no. Alright. KT: Um, so there is uh, rock and roll artists YV: Hm. KT: in the, in the sixties, right? YV: Hm. KT: Um Looking back on it, people say that it promoted various forms of protest and that was a way of rebelling against their parents YV: Oh yeah Joan Baez and, and all of these guys, yeah KT: what did, YV: Um KT: what did you guys think about that? YV: Liked the music I don't know if we thought it was personally, I don't think I found that it encouraged me to, you know, fight against anything or, KT: Yep. YV: or nothing like that. You know, KT: Mhm. YV: I think a lot of, a lot of people like me thought that was an American problem, KT: Okay. YV: not a Canadian problem because, well, Canada might have supported verbally. They didn't do anything. I mean, they, you know, in that sense, ok. And the people who volunteered to go into the American army, they did it as, as a choice on their part, there was no problem of uh going across the border and signing up at the army posting or whatever, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, and nobody questioned you, you wanted to go, you went, that was it you know, KT: Yep. YV: you didn't have to go through customs or anything. There was nothing. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. So, it, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't an issue. Okay. That, that was an American problem. That was not a Canadian problem. KT: Interesting. Um. YV: Well, we were very staid. We, we don't forget, Canadians are very staid. Very conservative. Like a lot of stuff behind closed doors. KT: Yep. True. YV: Still do. Kt: Yeah. Like, we're like the Americans. But, very different. 00:24:01 - YV: Not like the Americans. KT: Yeah. Um, some youth culture, voices of the seventies promoted recreational drugs. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, you went to a Catholic University, I assume those weren't present. YV: No. KT: Yeah. YV: No, and even the amount of recreational drugs that were in the schools was minimum. Even, even in the, in the seventies at, at my high school. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. I mean, it, when I left, no, maybe in the eighties and the early nineties we could, every teacher knew every drug seller in the school, KT: Mhm. YV: and the leader of the pack was one of the most, was one of the most intelligent kids in the school. Very gregarious. Very polite. Hello, Miss. And how are you and everything, KT: Interesting how that works YV: And he made a fortune, KT: Wow. Um, What about where you grew up in Verdun? YV: Yeah. KT: Did you notice, did you notice anything about drugs there? YV: No, I can't say as I did. Even in. No, no, I think it was something that if it was done it was done quietly among friends. KT: Yeah. YV: It wasn't a, uh, you know, the whole park lighting up. Okay. It wasn't, uh, you know, uh, Woodstock or anything like that. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: No, everything was done quietly. You know, your friends, if you, if your, if it were your friends and you smoked a joint, okay. It was your friends. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. It wasn't, you know, the whole 200 people who are there KT: Yep. YV: with your friends, you know. KT: Um, so I'd like to transition to the female experience. YV: Oh my, okay. KT: Um, in, yeah, in your own words. What did feminism signify, um to you when you were in university? You, you said you went to an all, all girls university, right? Was that um present at all or it was kind of just whatever? 00:26:02 - YV: I don't, I don't think it was a major concern. Okay? I don't think feminism comes into play while you're in university with a bunch of females. Okay? It's only if you step out into a career or something, There's a lot of that shows up because you didn't get that kind of attitude. The men who are professors never had any of that. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: And we had a lot of women professors and they were like models for you. You know, KT: Yep. YV: uh one of my physics teacher uh was nine months pregnant, went and had the baby and was teaching back in two days. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. Like everybody said, was she really pregnant, you know, KT: [giggles] YV: kind of thing. KT: Yep. Yep. YV: But she was, you know, but on the other hand, Doctor Tasik, who was my biology professor, uh she was a very, very feminine you know, like to the point where, you know, she, she wouldn't give me an, she wouldn't raise, she wouldn't allow a person to pass. A course bacteriology because it would give me a 90 and she wouldn't allow that. YV: Now, why would you do that? You know? Is it because she's against high marks? I mean what's, what was the problem of, about her having a 90 you know, KT: Yeah. YV: and could never get an answer out of her, you know. KT: Mhm. YV: So, so it might have been very subtle. Okay. But it wasn't something that was promoted and it was so it wasn't something that, that we,we had to have uh other than that situation at Biochem and McGill with this guy KT: Yep. YV: until I finally said no way. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. And he backed off. KT: Yeah, what about, um, when you became a teacher? Uh Did you notice any of that with your, um, did you have any other colleagues that were women? Um And did you guys ever talk about things like that? 00:28:02 - YV: Um No, you got to remember. I'm 21 years old and I'm low man on the totem pole, KT: Yeah YV: you know, so somebody who's been there for 20 years, you don't, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, start up a lot of stuff. No, it, it was only when we, when, when Paul and I went to our, uh, Richmond regional. Okay. And I got involved in union stuff and got on what they call the school council. It was the equivalent of a student council only it's uh it's at the teacher level. Okay? And, or administrative level. And then, and then you would, you would take what you were learning through the union and then apply it to situations in the school. Okay. But you had to do it very, very carefully because a lot of there were men who thought that, as I said, I should have stayed home and, and raised more English kids for the English community. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. Which I, you know, if I, my husband and I said, if my husband and my father have no problem with my working, what do you? You know, KT: Yep. YV: you have no right to tell me what to do, you know. So it wasn't, it, it might have been like a lot of male teachers who were there who had wives who stayed at home and raised their kids. So it was a generational thing I, I would think KT: Mhm. YV: and as, as younger teachers came in, as the older teachers retired. Well, we didn't all think that way. You know, we all had, I remember there was a teacher in our school who did not have a checkbook, did not have a credit card. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. And this was, she came the year before Shane graduated, 86. Okay. And I remember myself and another female teacher said to her, you're going to apply for a credit card and then you're gonna go to the store and then you're gonna buy something and you're gonna charge it and then when the bill comes in, you're gonna pay for it. And now your credit line is established, Your 00:30:15 - KT: Yep. YV: credit history is established. And only then did she start to realize that Hey, I'm making money and I've got to take care of myself in that sense. And it's a good thing because her husband did some work on the roof and fell, he was tied, but he fell and his back hit the, the balcony railing and paralyzed him. Okay. KT: Oh wow. YV: So for two years, he was in on sick leave and he went back to work. He was a math teacher and there was an elevator in the school so he could drive and wheel himself into the elevator and up, he goes to his classroom. Okay. But it put a lot of burden on her and she had her financial stability because of what we had told her to do. KT: Yep. YV: So there were, this is the late eighties. So there were a lot of people who had really old fashioned ideas and then there were, you know, a couple of us in the staff room, we said no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that, KT: Yep. YV: you know, and how to save money and where to tax shelter it and all kinds of stuff like that. Okay. But we did it quietly. We didn't do it with men around. KT: So do you think it was more about just helping each other rather than kind of saying a big F U to the men? And like YV: I think it was more of a question of helping each other rather than, you know, you know, the thing is with a lot of, a lot of men, some of them would never have said a word, but there were others who would have poopooed the idea. Why do you want to do that? Why doesn't your husband do that? You know, KT: Yep. YV: Paul and I were married the second year. He, he went and got, went money, got money from the bank. And two days later, he could not tell me where he had spent the 200 bucks. Now, $200 way back in the early seventies is a lot of money. 00:32:04 - KT: Yeah. YV: And he looked at me and he said, I want you to take over the finances KT: Smart. YV: and he wasn't on allowance or anything. But whenever he wanted money, he could go at the bank. But I'd say to him, okay. What did you do? You put gas in the car? Did you buy your cigarettes? KT: Yep. YV: Did you go buy beer? Did you? Oh, okay, and he slowly learned. Okay. So this is where, where my involvement got into it KT: Yep. YV: because before that I didn't do a lot. Okay. And it's still my father who was illiterate, signed the checks, not my mother who was literate who could do math, who could do things like that? I couldn't get a loan. Uh, I had to have my husband sign for a loan. Okay. KT: Wow. That's not that long ago. YV: No, it wasn't that long ago. You know. Anyway. KT: Um. YV: So, feminism. Well, I think we just quietly worked away KT: Yep. YV: at what we could do. KT: Yep. YV: Okay, because it didn't rock the boat for anybody, you know? KT: So all the, all the protests would you say are more American? And YV: yeah. Well, maybe big city. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. KT: Yep. YV: As opposed to just being American, I think big city kind of thing because their ideas would have been more individual because you don't get that community kind of thing. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. And because uh in a small town, I mean, everybody knew everybody, everybody knew Paul and I, KT: Yep. YV: yeah, there goes Mr and Mrs Voisard you know, we didn't know who, who they were. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, but they knew who we were, KT: Yep. YV: you know, so there's a lot of circumspect that you had to pay attention to in a small community as opposed to. So if you wanted to, you know, throw your bra around, it's much easier to do it in the city than to go down to the local cenotaph 00:34:09 - KT: yeah. YV: and, you know, swirl your bra because that was a square in, in Richmond and it was a cenotaph, you know, so, KT: um so we, we spoke about how being woman resulted in different treatment and expectations in classrooms. Um When you had those, those uh was it biochem YV: Hm KT: with um the YV: McGill students? KT: McGill students, um Did you notice any different treatment from the professors? Um, no? YV: No. Um, you don't do labs, do you? KT: No. YV: What happens is ok. In a lab? I, I'm going to assume it's the same thing for Abby. I don't know. But in a lab, um, you might have a 20 minute or 30 minute, uh, um, session, a teaching session before and then you give in the lab. KT: And then its just go do it YV: Go do it. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. So you had to read through the lab. You sort of knew what you were supposed to be working on KT: Mhm YV: because you just had a lecture on it. Okay. KT: Yep. YV: Um, but you, all, you had was a technician walking around to make sure that the sinks didn't clog or that you could get a particular chemical or whatever. KT: Mhm. YV: You just worked for three hours on this assignment and away you went, you know. KT: Mhm. Um. YV: So there was no, he didn't, like, I don't think I saw the professor at all in a lab. KT: Okay YV: Okay. YV: It would have been his fourth-year student or something who was a techie for the, for the day, KT: Yeah. Uh, when you were a teacher, YV: Mhm. KT: when you just started teaching. Did you? I know you taught high school kids. YV: Yeah. KT: So they're a little bit more, I guess, rebellious than, uh, than university. Um, but did you notice any difference from a treatment from the kids versus like, uh, how they would treat male, male teachers? Or? 00:36:10 - YV: I wouldn’t know, I wouldn’t know because, uh, your classroom is your classroom? You don't, you don't know what's KT: Yeah. YV: going on in, in the other classrooms, you know, you don't, and you don't see a lot of, uh, stuff in the hallway. KT: Okay. YV: Okay at the time. Okay. I mean, you weren't supposed to be in a hallway, period, you know, uh, you were walking down a hallway, somebody could stop you and say, what are you doing here? KT: Yeah. YV: You know, kind of thing. Okay. KT: Mhm YV: So, no, I, I'm gonna say no, I'm not aware of any, any differences from student to teacher. No. KT: Okay. Um Were there any, going back to when you were in university, YV: Right KT: um Were there any programs? Um You mentioned that there was not many of you in the science YV: Hm. KT: programs? Um Was there any like, were there any clubs going on at the time? Um YV: Hm. KT: I can't even think of an example of a club. YV: Yeah, I know. I know you're thinking of like a drama club, KT: Yeah stuff like that YV: choir, stuff like that. I don't know actually. There weren't, there weren't any for science. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. No, there aren't any for science. There might have been some in the art section in the B A section. KT: Yeah. YV: I don't, I don't know, but it wasn't a drama thing because I don't remember going to any drama productions. Okay. KT: Yep. YV: So my clubs would have been outside with my sports, KT: Yep. YV: with my town sports. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. 00:37:51 - KT: Um So historians have written a lot about the, what they call the counterculture revolution. Uh Meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle, both uh at university and back home in, in Verdun? Um where did you like? Did you see yourselves as needing to do anything to, to create a more just society and a better world like uh for me growing up as, as an example, um the whole climate change thing is, is, you know, big like a lot of people my age like, oh you gotta recycle, recycle, recycle climate change, you know, was there anything like that when you were? YV: I'm gonna say no, no, I think, I think a lot of it was uh educational reform at the time KT: Okay. YV: Okay and only those people who were in education or who had kids in the school system, were aware of it. Okay. Um the, the French and English divide was coming into the fore, you know, um um where the French sector, you became a doctor or a lawyer or you worked KT: Mhm YV: Okay. So, you know, in many respects, it was exactly the same as the English sector. If you had like, I have a niece who has three Children, all of them went to private college, private high school KT: Mhm. YV: and then went to private CEGEPs in the French sector. KT: Yeah. YV: And are now, you know, either at uh actually two of them studied in the university in the States. Now, the fact that they went to a French private place. KT: Yeah. YV: Got them the English. KT: Interesting. YV: Okay, because you don't get the amount of English in the public system, in the French system as you do in the private sector. KT: Yeah. 00:39:59 - YV: Okay. So that's why, and I mean, private, I mean, $35,000 a year, KT: Yeah. YV: I don't mean the three or $4000 place where you can go to quote what they call a private French high school. KT: Yeah YV: Uh uh. I mean, the really okay, there was a lot of money that was spent and a lot of education. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. So, so there was not a lot of, I mean, climate change was not even an issue. Okay. Uh, not even, uh, food pricing was not an issue. Uh, even cars and, and smog or anything like that was not an issue. Half the population of Quebec didn't have a car. We used public transportation KT: Yep. YV: to get everywhere in the city. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: Yeah. So, no, I don't, I don't think there was like one major issue that people were aware of. Like, I mean, Quebec started their own income tax form in 60 67 68 72. And I don't even remember a buzz about it. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. They, they had their own QPP set up KT: Yep. YV: and their own income tax set up KT: Interesting YV: and I don't remember anybody making a fuss about it. I think, I think a lot of it has to do with the very patriarchal society like, uh, today the CAQ, um, you know, it's Legault, who decides everything. It isn't his cabinet, bullshit. KT: Yeah. YV: He's the one who's saying yes. No, or whatever it is. KT: Mhm. Did you notice anything, um, like today there's a lot of, um, social justice for, uh, gay people YV: Yeah, no. KT: and black people and all that stuff. YV: No. KT: Was there any? None of that at all? YV: No. No. In fact, a lot of it was probably frowned on. KT: Yeah. 00:41:58 - YV: Okay, far more. I mean, uh, um, I don't know how many blacks were allowed in to quote the contiki. I like using the contiki because it was such an English bar KT: Mhm. YV: kind of thing. Okay. You know, they had their own establishments, you know, for going out for all kinds of different things, you know, and as I say, I don't even remember blacks living in my neighborhood in Verdun. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. And the same thing applies to Richmond. It wasn't until many years later that we actually had a colored person at the, at the school, attending the school. Okay. So Shane and Jason never grew up. They were aware because we'd bring them everywhere we went. Okay. So every time we came to Montreal and went out to a movie or stayed at a hotel over the weekend for swimming and hockey tournament, that's when they would see another okay, culture. KT: Mhm. YV: But it was, you know, in hockey or whatever. Okay. KT: Yeah. YV: There wasn't anything in, in Richmond and there was very little in Sherbrooke KT: And none of that was on purpose, right? It was just, YV: No, it was just the way it was. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. Now, I can remember, um, remember when the riots were held in the late sixties in the States, L A blew up, KT: Yep. YV: okay. Chicago blew up. KT: Yep. YV: New Jersey. Okay. We would have, we had a lot of visitors that came from the States and a lot of them were black and, uh, I mean, they must have had money to come to Canada and stay for whatever it was. But they were the only ones that we saw in our restaurants. We didn't normally have black people who actually came to the restaurant to the A&W. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. But A&W is a chain in the States and they're familiar with it. Okay. KT: Yep. 00:44:00 - YV: So they, because there was no Burger King. Burger King didn't come to Canada. Oh. Oh, Jason was born in 74 75. Okay. Burger King was still in the States, didn’t come to Canada KT: Yep. YV: and mcdonald's. I don't even know if mcdonald's was around at the time. So A&W was okay.And that was a familiar chain KT: Mhm YV: and I think that's why we got, you know, KT: Yep, interesting. YV: so, no, no, there wasn't. We, we, we just didn't have, KT: Yep. YV: we just didn't meet, we didn't get together for anything. KT: Hm. Um, to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? Like YV: I have no idea. KT: Yeah, YV: no idea about that. Like, um, I don't think mom and dad ever had anything concrete to say about any of that, you know, when Lilian started going out or when Marcel started going or I was going out, there was no, you know, KT: There was no trying to control? YV: No, no, no, no, no. I think we were raised to the point where we knew, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, that there were limits, KT: Yep. YV: kind of thing KT: Yep. YV: that, okay, and we just absorb the limits and use the limits. Uh, you know, without even thinking. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. KT: Um, were you in tune with the political system at all? YV: I'm gonna say, no, I was not. I mean, I might have known who was the prime minister at the time and stuff like that. But apart from that, no, and it only, you know, at Saint Joe's when I did my Bachelor of Education when the parent report came in and that was only because we had to take a history of education program. Okay. Of course,there's something like along that line KT: Mhm. YV: apart from that. No. No, 00:45:57 - KT: Interesting YV: it was not. Um, no, KT: it wasn't big. YV: It wasn't big. Like, I didn't even know there was like who the mayor of Verdun was like, and we lived across the street from the city hall. KT: Yeah. YV: no, politics was not, KT: not as big as it is. YV: No. KT: Do you think that has to do with the connectedness of today's society? Um, YV: Well, I think, I think, yes, I think the fact that so much can happen and within two minutes everybody knows what's going on. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. Um, and I'm sure that a lot of that had to do with the, uh, Vietnam and the reporting of Vietnam and then, and then Nixon getting into the troubles that he, and, and then, you know, like all of a sudden there's a trial on TV, like, I mean, the judge was right there and they were, you know, you know, questioning John Dean and all of the, the people who worked for, for Nixon, you know, like that never happened anywhere at any time. And then all of a sudden,you know, KT: Boom. YV: boom, all of this stuff started coming out, you know, and it may have raised some questions about what was going on in the Quebec thing or, you know, you know, Renee Levesque coming up as, uh, you know, the PQ and, and that kind of thing. But, uh, in the early seventies, no. KT: Did you, um, what was the first time you voted if you voted at all? YV: Oh, yeah, I, I voted when I was, had the right to vote. KT: Okay. YV: I voted all the time.I've always voted. KT: And was it more, um, you're voting for the specific party or you, were you voting for the person? YV: It depended. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, um, but for the most part it was in the federal, it was for the party in the provincial. It, it varied because we didn't have a PQ involved in this. Okay. KT: Mhm. 00:47:57 - YV: So you could, uh, you know, legitimately, you know, vote for an individual. KT: Yep. YV: And then later on, uh in Richmond, for example, uh even in municipal politics, it was for the individual. Okay? And then for the provincial, it was, that was political, that was the party. But at the federal, it was what was on the slate, not the people, KT: Mhm YV: but what the things were on the slate. Okay. So it, it changed. Ok. From doing, it's something in a very specific way to making more, uh, decisive decisions and knowing that if you went one way, your vote wouldn't count for anything, but it would at least show that there was a dissenting, there were dissenting voices. KT: Yep. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, so you said that you weren't really aware of or in tune with the political system? Did you know at all if, um, like for me growing up, I've always, uh, the West Island has always been very liberal, right? Like I voted when I was 18. Um, it didn't matter who I voted for. Liberals are going to win. Did you kind of have the same attitude in Verdun? Um, or was it kind of changing, you know? YV: No, I didn't vote in Verdun. I don't think, I, I don't remember voting in Verdun. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. And I don't think it's because I didn't vote. I think it was because there was no election. Okay. KT: Interesting. YV: Yeah, I don't think, okay, because then I moved KT: Yeah. YV: to Richmond. KT: Yeah. YV: And that's where the voting took place. Okay. And that's where you voted? Okay. Well, a lot of it was politics. A lot of it was, uh, French versus English. A lot of it was Bill 101. you know, there was a lot of stuff that was going on at the time and that sort of decided how you were going to vote. 00:50:12 - KT: Interesting. Um, historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology, changed gender relations and dating practices. Um do you agree with that statement? YV: It probably did at a philosophical level. I don't know if it did, like at a KT: Practically YV: practical, you know, KT: Yeah YV: I used birth control pills just like, you know, KT: Mhm. YV: everybody else, you know, kind of thing. And, and then I almost got, I thought I was pregnant the third time and I wasn't OK. But then that's when we decided that I couldn't. That was, that's an interesting point. I could not have my tubes tied because I was not 30 KT: Mhm. YV: and I didn't have three Children. And I was told that categorically by the doctor. KT: Hm. YV: So when I, when I went home and told Paul, I said, I can't have my tubes tied or whatever. He said, all right, then he'll have a vasectomy. And now both, both of the boys have had vasectomies. Okay? Two kids. And that was that was it KT: Hm. YV: no more. Okay? KT: Interesting. YV: Yeah, it was a really, you know, like, I mean, I think that was a real shocker KT: Yeah. YV: to me to have a doctor. Tell me that I couldn't decide that there was some autocrat someplace in the health department who said I couldn't do this? KT: Wow. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, you said dating was much more formal. YV: Mhm. KT: Um, was that the same in university as it was? So, when you went to Richmond, were you already with 00:52:00 - YV: Paul KT: Paul? YV: Yeah KT: Okay. So where, where did you meet him? YV: at my at Bachelor of Education at Saint Joe's? KT: Okay. YV: Okay. He had done a four year program at Saint Mary's in Halifax KT: Mhm. YV: and didn't know what he was going to do afterwards. So he did, did the education program. Meantime, he decided he wanted to go to Oxford or Cambridge and do a year of study there. KT: Mhm. YV: And he got his professor from Saint Mary's to contact Cambridge or, or what you do is you apply and one of them will take you not both. So almost like the CEGEP system, KT: Yeah YV: you know, in Quebec KT: Yep. YV: you send out the form and then they tell you kind of thing. Okay. Well, the same thing. So he got accepted at Oxford. KT: Wow. YV: And so after we graduated, I went to work and he went to Oxford for a year and studied anthropology. He did anthropology. KT: That's interesting. YV: And then, and then when he came back, we both uh looked for jobs and he had a sister who, who had a friend who was a psychologist at the Eastern Townships regional school board at the time it was called and they were opening up Richmond Regional high school and were looking for teachers KT: Hm. YV: and so we applied and we got the job. I got a science and he got history. KT: Wow. Um, how did your generation look at family and marriage? Was it like a, a necessity? Um, that it was like, or, or, or sorry. Was it like that's just what you did? That's just what you were going to do. YV: That's what you did. Yeah, at the time. Although, um, I had a lot of people at the school who didn't get married but lived together. 00:54:00 - KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. Um, I remember a secretary, you know, one day just said out of the blue to me and I'm not having any Children, Yvette and I looked at her and I said, I don't give a shit KT: [giggles] YV: that you're not gonna have children I thought not my problem. KT: Yeah. YV: Well, everybody thinks I should. Well, if you don't want any, please don't have any, KT: Yep. YV: you know? KT: Yep. YV: Oh, you don't mind? why the hell should I not? I could not get over that because this was a, a strong minded woman. KT: Mhm. YV: Obviously, her family had been at her to have children and she didn't want any. KT: Mhm. YV: So I think, I think, I think expectations started out where you follow the, the same old rule, you know, you got married you had children, you bla bla bla bla and then I think that slowly began to loosen. Okay. So, so people lived together and they had Children but they didn't get married KT: Mhm. YV: or they lived together, they didn't have any children. Okay. Um, the other thing is in teaching, you come across so many bad situations that it, you know, opens your eyes to a lot of different situations that, you know, you really makes you question some of the things that you might want to decide to do, you know. KT: Yeah. YV: Um Yeah. KT: Um, moving on to the whole um sexuality and harassment thing. YV: Hm. KT: So, like, like I said, if you don't feel comfortable answering any of these, just, YV: I don't, I don't remember being involved in any, anything like that that I would call. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. KT: Um, YV: Patriarchal. Yes. OK. In the sense that uh I'm the boss and it's always a male 00:56:00 - KT: Yep. YV: and this is what you're going to do, but I wouldn't attribute that to being uh sexual harassment. I didn't get that kind of thing even in the restaurant. I never got that KT: interesting. Um So now nowadays there's uh a lot uh being done to police uh sexual harassment. There was none of that going on back then? YV: Not that I know of. KT: Yeah. YV: you know, I mean, I never encountered the police for, for anything, you know, like they were there or they weren't there, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, KT: Um, YV: they were the good guys anyway, we all, you know, the police were good guys. Fire people were good guys. The ambulance people were good guys. You know, you didn't have to question everything, KT: Yeah YV: you know, you didn't, that wasn't, you know, KT: So its changed. YV: Yeah. You know, anybody, like, like, you know, Jason had a very bad accident, uh, when he was out with his friends, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, and the friends didn't know what to do with it. So they stopped a car on the highway and they put him in the car and, and they phoned us and told us the guy drove him to the hospital. Do you know what which hospital? No. KT: [giggles] YV: Paul and I damn near Anyway, we found him KT: Yep. YV: at a hospital and somebody had dropped him off at the hospital. Okay. And we have no idea who that good Samaritan was, KT: Yeah. YV: but he was 12 years old. Okay. So that would have been in 86. I tell you every bad idea went through KT: Yeah YV: our heads until we found him, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, and, and they were, you know, see the kids were perfectly okay because they trusted this adult in the car KT: Yeah YV: and you, you know, like we, we never said anything wrong. We never, you know, gave them a hard time or, or anything like that. We just kept our fingers crossed, you know, and 00:58:04 - KT: it's, uh, very different from today. YV: Yes. 00:58:06 - KT: Um, I don't, I think we're running out of time. Yeah, we've basically run out of time. So, um, okay, thank you. And Transcription Translation KT : Donc, euh, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. KT : Euh, vous n'avez pas grandi à Ottawa mais à Verdun, euh, est-ce que Verdun était bilingue ? YV : Oui KT : Euh, à l'époque. YV : Oui, oui. KT : Hum. Nous voulons donc mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient en quelque sorte liés les uns aux autres. YV : Eh bien, ce n'était pas le cas. Autant que je me souvienne, nous n'avons pas participé à quoi que ce soit avec la communauté française. YV : Um En tant qu'étudiant, c'était complètement séparé, les systèmes scolaires étaient complètement séparés. Si nous faisions du sport à l'école, nous jouions contre les écoles anglaises, nous ne jouions pas contre les écoles françaises. KT : D'ACCORD. YV : D'accord, ce qui était intégré, c'était le hockey. Mon frère jouait et il y avait toujours des joueurs français dans l'équipe. D'accord, donc peut-être avec la section des garçons ou peut-être à cause du type de sport, il y avait plus d'interaction. YV : Euh, ma mère et mon père, euh, les voisins étaient tous anglais. D'accord. YV : Euh, c'est la grande bande dont nous faisions partie ? Nous étions environ 12 enfants, la plupart d'entre eux étaient anglais. Les parents étaient peut-être français, d'accord, mais les enfants, tous, nous avons tous grandi, ils sont devenus anglais. Nous ne sommes pas devenus français. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord ? Ils sont devenus anglais. YV : Et nous rejoignions notre gang. Il n'y avait donc pas beaucoup de partage, KT : Oui. YV : Et c'est probablement une partie du problème qui a mené à la révolution des citations. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, oui. KT : Pensez-vous qu'ils sont devenus anglais parce que leurs parents considéraient l'anglais comme un bon moyen de, euh ? YV : Je, je, je ne suis pas très sûr. YV : Je sais qu'une fois, j'ai postulé pour un emploi dans une banque et j'avais écrit ma lettre de candidature en français et on m'a téléphoné immédiatement pour m'embaucher. Et on m'a téléphoné immédiatement pour m'embaucher. KT : Hm. YV : Mais je n'avais pas un bon bagage linguistique, oral. KT : D'accord. YV : J'ai donc dû dire au gars que, d'accord, mais il cherchait des personnes bilingues qui pouvaient parler français pour travailler dans la banque en tant qu'employé de bureau, KT : Oui. YV : et il ne les trouvait pas. KT : Donc, YV : Il ne les trouvait pas. YV : Tu veux sortir ? YV : Vous savez. Il y avait donc un problème avec l'amitié. Je veux dire, il y avait un fossé, il y en avait un. YV : Allez, tu veux sortir ? Allez, viens. YV : Désolé. Je ne m'attendais pas à avoir KT : um uh huh. Oui, c'est vrai. YV : Même quand je travaillais comme serveuse, tout était en anglais. Les menus étaient en anglais. Je servais en anglais. Les gens commandaient en anglais même s'ils étaient français. D'accord. KT : Quand cela a-t-il changé ? YV : Eh bien, nous, vous savez, ils ont commencé à parler de l'utilisation des mots français appropriés pour, comme, alors j'ai commencé à utiliser Guimauve pour guimauve et les Français ne comprenaient pas de quoi je parlais. KT : Oui, [rires] YV : Donc, vous savez, il y avait tellement d'anglais, je pense, dans leur langue qu'ils utilisaient nos mots bien plus que nous n'utilisions de termes français. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Mais évidemment, ça a commencé à changer à ce moment-là parce que c'est en, euh, 19 Duplessis n'était plus là. Bourrassa était là, alors ils ont probablement commencé à ce moment-là, vous savez, à penser à la culture française et à des choses comme ça. KT : J'ai grandi à Point Clare, dans l'ouest de l'île. Et la façon dont j'ai grandi, c'est que tout ce qui est à l'ouest de Dorval est anglais, n'est-ce pas ? KT : Anglais et pas riches. Mais vous avez, vous avez de l'argent, vous savez. Um et tout ce qui est à l'est est beaucoup plus français et ils n'ont pas autant d'argent. KT : Diriez-vous que c'est un peu la même chose ou que c'est similaire ? YV : Oui, oui, oui. A Verdun, c'était divisé de telle façon que euh il y avait un endroit appelé Crawford Park à cette extrémité, et c'était très anglais et il y avait beaucoup plus d'argent que là où je vivais. D'accord ? YV : Je vivais là où il y avait trois étages dans l'immeuble. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord ? Et donc les immeubles sont à la fois français et anglais. Par exemple, nous vivions au premier étage et nous étions anglais, mais les gens à l'étage étaient français. Nous étions anglais, mais les gens à l'étage étaient français. Ce genre de choses. YV : Il y avait donc une banque mixte et plus loin, vers l'est de Montréal. Vous parlez de Pointe Saint Charles. KT : Oui. YV : Plus français. KT : D'accord. YV : Donc, c'est passé de très, très anglais, à un mélange, puis à très, très français. KT : Intéressant. KT : Avez-vous remarqué des différences économiques ? Par exemple, les Anglais avaient-ils plus d'argent ou ? YV : Ils avaient, ils avaient, ils avaient une voiture. KT : D'accord. YV : Ma mère, mon père et ma mère n'avaient pas de voiture. Les enfants étaient mieux habillés. Ok, que nous. D'accord. YV : Euh, ils allaient, euh, à des choses comme, euh, l'auditorium ou le cinéma ou quelque chose comme ça beaucoup plus souvent que nous. YV : Ils ne participaient pas à la, à la situation du parc. D'accord, le terrain de jeu. YV : Verdun avait un terrain de jeu très, très actif pour les enfants. Vous pouviez aller au terrain de jeu et y rester de 9 h à 9 h et il y avait, il y avait des surveillants. YV : J'étais surveillant, il y avait des surveillants toute la journée qui faisaient des quarts de huit heures et toutes les heures, il y avait une activité prévue. Il pouvait s'agir d'art, de danse, d'emmener les enfants à un match de baseball, vous savez, un match de shag bet, de les emmener nager, toutes sortes de choses. D'accord. YV : Là où je travaillais, il y avait 100% de monde. A l'autre bout, ce n'était pas le cas. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, parce qu'ils pouvaient, ils avaient peut-être un chalet et pouvaient partir le week-end et des choses comme ça. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord KT : Euh, il est évident qu'il y avait beaucoup moins d'électronique dans la société à l'époque où vous étiez à l'université. Hum, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou en aviez-vous ? YV : Eh bien, au lycée ou à l'université ? KT : Euh, euh, l'université. YV : L'université ? Oh, celle-là est difficile, parce que je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps libre. D'accord. YV : Les cours, parfois à cause des laboratoires, comme Abby, duraient longtemps. Je n'avais pas de cours du soir, mais quand je rentrais à la maison, je devais faire mes devoirs et mes travaux. Je n'avais donc pas beaucoup de temps libre. Et quand j'ai commencé à travailler, c'était encore moins parce que je travaillais le vendredi soir, toute la journée du samedi et toute la journée du dimanche, puis j'ai commencé. YV : Je n'avais donc pas beaucoup de temps libre. YV : Je me débrouillais pour aller au match de hockey avec Morris, au cinéma. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, mais à part ça, pas grand-chose. Et bien sûr, peut-être le mardi soir, il y avait des matchs de basket. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, et puis au printemps et à l'automne, vous savez, le base-ball, KT : Oui. YV : Mais c'était très souvent l'après-midi parce que tous les parcs n'avaient pas d'éclairage pour travailler le soir. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord, donc vous deviez jouer pendant le.., KT : Oui. YV : L'après-midi. Oui, l'après-midi. KT : Hum. YV : Je lisais beaucoup. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, j'ai beaucoup lu de mon côté. Hum, KT : C'était des livres de la bibliothèque ou ? YV : Certains venaient de la, beaucoup venaient de la bibliothèque. Pour mon anniversaire et pour Noël, ma mère m'achetait des livres, mais je lui disais où aller. Et il n'y avait qu'une seule librairie anglaise que l'on fréquentait, et c'était celle des classiques. YV : D'accord. Qui a été reprise par Indigo plus tard. D'accord, mais c'était il y a longtemps. YV : C'est dans la rue Sainte-Catherine, près de Bishops. D'accord. KT : Quand vous parliez des matchs de hockey, c'était les Habs ? YV : Oui, mais j'étais un fan de Boston. KT : Ohh. YV : Je le suis toujours. J'ai toujours été, toujours, toujours, toujours, ouais, Morris était un, euh, Canadien de Montréal et mon, mon père était un fervent fan du Canadien de Montréal. Ma mère s'en fichait, et mes soeurs aussi. KT : Non. YV : Non. D'accord. Et puis les deux garçons se sont mis au hockey et une fois qu'ils en ont eu fini avec le hockey, Paul et moi ne sommes jamais retournés voir un autre match. KT : Hm. YV : C'est tout. KT : Était-ce aussi important qu'aujourd'hui ? comme les Habs ? YV : Oh, oui. Oh, oui. KT : C'était l'époque. YV : Oui, c'était les années où il y avait peu de règles sur la glace. Ok, je veux dire, euh, les casques, les joueurs ne portaient pas de casque. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, c'est complètement différent. Même si les enfants portaient des casques, je suis presque sûr que Marcel avait un casque quand il jouait, vous savez, au hockey improvisé, KT : Mhm. YV : Personne ne portait de casque. KT : Oui. YV : Non, KT : Hum. YV : Non. KT : Euh, donc pour passer au campus, euh, où, quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et aussi en dehors du campus ? YV : Bien sûr, il y avait le bâtiment de l'Union à McGill Okay. Il faut se rappeler qu'on n'avait pas le droit d'entrer dans les bars. Donc, vous savez, c'était, euh, vous étiez contrôlé, KT : Oui. YV : On était contrôlé tout le temps. YV : On vous contrôlait tout le temps. KT : Mhm. YV : Si vous entriez. Ok. Donc c'était difficile, difficile d'y aller. Il aurait fallu que ce soit, quelque chose comme un restaurant où, vous savez, un restaurant local. Vous n'auriez pas été autorisé à entrer dans un restaurant au centre-ville de Montréal. D'accord, oui, l'un des, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous ne pouviez pas entrer dans le contiki, par exemple, qui était un bar et un restaurant, vous deviez montrer votre, KT : UNE PIÈCE D'IDENTITÉ. YV : Une pièce d'identité pour entrer KT : Oui. YV : Pour y entrer, vous savez. Donc, donc, euh, donc, euh, les lieux de rencontre auraient été des zones locales où, comme je l'ai dit, la promenade KT : Oui. YV : et le cinéma et, vous savez, les endroits autour du, d'un terrain de baseball ou où les gens patinaient et jouaient au hockey pendant l'hiver, vous savez. YV : Donc, hum, même, même à l'université, je veux dire, j'avais 20 ans quand j'ai obtenu mon diplôme universitaire, je n'avais pas le droit d'entrer dans le, je veux dire, j'y suis allé, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : mais, vous savez, si on me donnait une carte, c'était, c'était fini, au revoir ! Vous voyez, KT : Yep. YV : Je tenais le haut du pavé. KT : Y avait-il des endroits où l'on pouvait se retrouver sur le campus ? Euh... YV : Non, pas chez nous. Euh, à McGill. Je ne me souviens pas à McGill, je ne me souviens pas. Hum, il n'y avait rien au bâtiment médical et il n'y avait rien à Loyola dont je me souvienne. YV : D'accord, donc il n'y avait que l'Union Building. KT : C'est que je sais, euh, les campus ont maintenant des endroits construits pour, pour traîner, vous savez ? Est-ce que c'était le cas à l'époque ? YV : Non, KT : Non YV : Non, je pense que c'est venu comme un KT : Plus tard. YV : Oui. KT : Oui, d'accord. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, à quel point Marianopolis était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique ? YV : Pas du tout. KT : Pas du tout ? YV : Oui. Non, c'était l'anglais. KT : Oui. Hum, YV : C'était anglais. KT : Euh, est-ce qu'il y avait des Français, euh, des gens qui, qui ont essayé d'aller là-bas ? YV : Oh, je ne sais pas. KT : D'accord. YV : Je ne le sais pas. Et je n'ai pas, comme, je n'ai jamais eu d'étudiant français, euh, de camarade de classe. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, dans mes cours de sciences ? KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Il y en avait peut-être dans les programmes b A. KT : Mhm. YV : Je ne sais pas. Je n'ai pas traîné avec eux. Nous étions trop occupés. On n'avait pas assez de temps pour les fréquenter, vous savez ? Alors, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. KT : Euh, la culture de la fête à laquelle nous faisons référence aujourd'hui, euh, se réfère aux activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décrirais-tu cela ? Il ne s'agit pas forcément de fêtes, mais comme vous avez mentionné la promenade, euh, et à quel point c'était populaire ? YV : Eh bien, c'était, c'était un lieu de rendez-vous pour, euh, vous savez, du printemps à l'automne. Ok, parce qu'il a fermé, le bâtiment, le bâtiment de la promenade... KT : Mhm. YV : Il a fermé pendant l'hiver. Mais quand vous y alliez, il y avait toujours le beau, la beauté. Euh, même si vous ne pouviez pas, vous ne pouviez pas boire à l'intérieur. Je veux dire, je ne dis pas qu'il n'y avait pas d'alcool à l'intérieur, mais il y avait un parc tout autour. KT : Mhm. Donc vous pouviez, vous savez, participer à la musique, participer à la musique qui venait de là parce que c'était souvent un DJ ou un groupe populaire dans la région. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. C'était donc un de ces endroits où vous, vous savez, vous, vous voyez dans un film où les filles sont toutes habillées et traînent et dansent sur l'herbe ou quoi que ce soit d'autre qui ki ce genre d'association. Rien de plus, de plus formel que cela. Et bien souvent, il s'agissait simplement de groupes d'enfants. Donc, dans ma bande, nous étions, bon Dieu, j'essaie de réfléchir. Nous devions être 15, 15 personnes. YV : Nous étions des garçons et des filles, KT : Mhm. YV : Mais on ne se mettait pas par deux, garçons et filles. Tout le monde se rencontrait, KT : Oui. YV : On allait faire quelque chose, puis on rentrait à la maison et le lendemain, on se rencontrait à nouveau. Parfois, c'était juste un match de football ou on allait tous à la piscine ou au cinéma, mais ce n'était pas untel ou untel qui était avec quelqu'un d'autre et... KT : Oui. YV : Donc non, ce n'était rien de tout cela. YV : D'accord ? Mais c'était, vous savez, quand j'avais 18 ans, vous savez, ce genre de choses. KT : Mhm YV : Il n'y avait pas d'appariement et j'imagine que cela s'est poursuivi sur la promenade, d'accord ? YV : Jusqu'à ce que, vous savez, je veux dire, les gens se marient quand ils sont assez jeunes, vous savez, beaucoup de mes amis étaient mariés avant d'avoir 20 ans, vous savez. KT : Wow. YV : Donc, oui, KT : Très différent, très différent d'aujourd'hui. YV : Oui, très différent d'aujourd'hui parce qu'à l'époque, c'est ce que vous faisiez, KT : Oui. YV : On se mariait, puis on avait des enfants et on recommençait le cycle, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. KT : Euh, y avait-il des fêtes comme celles auxquelles on pense aujourd'hui, euh, quand on est à l'université, ou était-ce plutôt au bar ? C'est ça ? Il n'y avait pas de fêtes à la maison. Il y avait YV : Non, non, il n'y en avait pas. Je n'ai jamais été chez l'un de mes camarades de classe, KT : Mhm. chez eux. Et je n'ai jamais, non, pas un seul KT : Hm. YV : pas chez Dana, pas chez Christine. Non, non, non, jamais. KT : Donc tous les, tous les, les lieux de rencontre étaient à l'extérieur de, YV : En dehors de l'école et dans votre propre quartier. Pas, pas euh vous n'aviez pas de lieu commun où vous vous retrouviez. KT : Alors, vous aviez des amis différents à l'école et des amis différents là où vous avez grandi ? YV : Oui. KT : Est-ce qu'ils se mélangeaient ? YV : Non. KT : Y avait-il quelqu'un avec qui vous aviez grandi ? Et ils allaient à la même école ? YV : Euh, Gail, j'ai grandi avec Gail et elle est allée à Marianapolis aussi, mais dans le programme artistique. KT : D'accord. YV : Je ne l'ai donc pas vue. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, Christine a suivi le programme artistique. Joyce est allée dans le programme artistique. YV : Il n'y avait pas beaucoup de gens qui allaient dans le programme scientifique. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, donc une fois qu'on est arrivé et qu'on s'est dit bonjour le matin ou qu'on a pris une tasse de café ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, on ne les a jamais vus ? Vous ne les avez jamais vus ? KT : Oui. YV : Et, et nous avions toujours un laboratoire, nous avions toujours des laboratoires. Alors vous, vous entriez dans le café à quatre heures de l'après-midi et il n'y avait personne, KT : [rires] YV : Il n'y avait que les scientifiques. KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, nous sommes tous en train de faire du travail de laboratoire KT : [rires] YV : ou on fait tous des rapports de laboratoire ou on fait des putains de maths. On faisait tellement de maths, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. YV : Alors, non, c'est vraiment, vraiment intéressant quand j'y pense parce que, euh, quand vous, ok, vous entrez par la porte et il y a un vestiaire et puis vous montez les escaliers, il y a des toilettes et puis ils ont des machines à café et, vous savez, comme un distributeur automatique, KT : Mhm. YV : Pas de la nourriture, du café, peut-être des boissons non alcoolisées. YV : D'accord, et puis vous alliez dans ce qu'on appelait la cafétéria. Ce côté était le côté art et ce côté était le côté science. KT : C'était fait exprès ou juste ? YV : Non, c'est juste la façon dont ça s'est passé. Je pense que c'est parce qu'on se promenait en blouse blanche toute la journée parce qu'on était, et on sentait parce que chaque laboratoire produisait quelque chose qui empestait l'endroit, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, et vous. Ma, même ma mère dirait la même chose. KT : [rires] YV : Elle montrait l'arrière et disait, prenez vos affaires là-bas, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, nous étions si, si mauvais, vous savez. YV : Je pense que c'est, et puis ça a empiré dans le sens où tu t'impliquais davantage dans tes cours de sciences et ton laboratoire, et eux s'impliquaient davantage dans leur truc, et tu voyais de moins en moins les amis que tu avais au lycée. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, mais vous ne vous êtes pas fait beaucoup d'amis sociaux à l'université, comme moi, KT : Mhm. YV : Je, vous savez, je partais le vendredi après-midi et j'allais travailler, vous savez, donc il n'y avait pas beaucoup de temps pour les relations sociales et ce genre de choses, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. KT : Euh, je sais que la guerre du Vietnam est arrivée un peu plus tard. Hum, et, vous savez, le Canada, nous n'y participions pas. Mais que pensiez-vous de la guerre du Vietnam ? Saviez-vous quelque chose à ce sujet ? YV : Eh bien, j'en savais quelque chose dans le sens où mon petit ami est allé, a été enrôlé là-bas. Il y avait trois gars de ma région qui traînaient ensemble et qui se sont enrôlés en même temps. D'accord. YV : Morris a été tué. Les deux autres ne l'ont pas été. YV : Euh, mais j'étais au courant, euh, de la guerre à cette époque, mais il n'y avait rien à la télévision, jusqu'à plus tard. D'accord, avec Walter Conkright et Tom Brokaw et quelques-uns de ces gars de CBS. D'accord. YV : N'oubliez pas que nous n'avions pas Internet. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. YV : Et si j'avais de la chance, je voyais les nouvelles à la télévision, parce que je devais compter sur la radio ou, ou je rentrais à la maison à sept heures du soir et les nouvelles étaient terminées parce que les nouvelles étaient diffusées de 18 h à 19 h à la télévision. D'accord. YV : Ce n'était pas, euh, vous n'aviez pas CNN qui présentait les nouvelles toute la journée. KT : Oui. YV : Cela n'arrivait pas. D'accord. Les nouvelles n'étaient pas diffusées de 6 à 7 et de 11 à 12. KT : Y avait-il quelque chose dans les magazines que vous disiez lire ? YV : Oui. Et Time Magazine, Time écrivait des choses sur le Vietnam, mais ils écrivaient ce qu'ils avaient à écrire, vous savez, donc on n'entendait pas beaucoup parler de ce qui se passait. On n'entendait pas parler du nombre de morts. On n'entendait pas parler du napalm qui était largué. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord ? Beaucoup de choses ne sont apparues que lorsque Nixon est arrivé et a commencé à envahir le Cambodge pour essayer d'atteindre le Vietnam. D'accord. C'est à ce moment-là que les ordures ont commencé à apparaître et que les sacs mortuaires ont commencé à être ramenés à la maison KT : Oui. YV : Et c'était à la télévision, où l'on voyait les cercueils descendre de l'avion. Je pense que c'est à ce moment-là que les gens ont commencé à comprendre que les Américains n'allaient pas gagner cette guerre. KT : Oui. KT : Y avait-il des Vietnamiens ou des Asiatiques avec qui vous avez grandi ou avec qui vous êtes allé à l'école ? YV : Non, KT : Donc, YV : Non. Il y avait un quartier chinois ? D'accord. Mais, et, d'accord, connaissez-vous Montréal ? KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, Atwater ? KT : Oui. YV : Ok. Tout ce quartier était un quartier noir. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, et Chinatown était plus à l'est et au sud. Je ne pense pas avoir eu un seul élève noir en classe. Mon école. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, et certainement pas un Asiatique. Je ne me souviens pas que nous ayons eu des Polonais, KT : Mhm. YV : Des Hongrois, des Tchèques, des Allemands, certainement beaucoup d'Anglais. Pas de Français. KT : Non. YV : Non, il y avait peut-être des gens qui parlaient français mais ils n'étaient pas français. KT : Oui. YV : Français. Ok. Donc, non. D'accord. KT : Euh, donc il y a eu euh, des artistes de rock and roll. YV : Hm. KT : dans les années 60, n'est-ce pas ? YV : Hm. KT : En y repensant, les gens disent qu'ils ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation et que c'était une façon de se rebeller contre leurs parents. YV : Oh oui Joan Baez et, et tous ces types, oui KT : qui l'ont fait, YV : Um KT : Qu'est-ce que vous en avez pensé ? YV : On aimait la musique, mais je ne sais pas si on pensait que c'était personnel, je ne pense pas que ça m'encourageait à, vous savez, à me battre contre quoi que ce soit, KT : Oui. YV : ou rien de ce genre. Vous savez, KT : Mhm. YV : Je pense que beaucoup de gens comme moi pensaient que c'était un problème américain, KT : D'accord. YV : Pas un problème canadien parce que, eh bien, le Canada a peut-être soutenu verbalement. Ils n'ont rien fait. Je veux dire, ils, vous savez, dans ce sens, ok. Et les gens qui se sont portés volontaires pour aller dans l'armée américaine, ils l'ont fait comme, comme un choix de leur part, il n'y avait pas de problème de euh traverser la frontière et de s'inscrire au poste de l'armée ou quoi que ce soit, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous savez, personne ne vous posait de questions, vous vouliez y aller, vous y alliez, c'est tout, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : Vous n'aviez pas à passer par la douane ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Il n'y avait rien. KT : Wow. YV : Ok. Donc, ce n'était pas, vous savez, ce n'était pas un problème. C'était un problème américain. C'était un problème américain. Ce n'était pas un problème canadien. KT : Intéressant. Hum. YV : Eh bien, nous étions très statiques. Nous, nous n'oublions pas que les Canadiens sont très statiques. Très conservateurs. Ils aiment beaucoup de choses derrière des portes closes. KT : Oui. C'est vrai. YV : C'est toujours le cas. Kt : Oui. Nous sommes comme les Américains. Mais très différents. YV : Pas comme les Américains. KT : Oui. Hum, une partie de la culture des jeunes, les voix des années soixante-dix ont fait la promotion des drogues récréatives. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, vous êtes allé dans une université catholique, je suppose que ces drogues n'étaient pas présentes. YV : Non. KT : Oui. YV : Non, et même la quantité de drogues récréatives dans les écoles était minimale. Même, même dans les années 70, dans mon lycée. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. Je veux dire, quand je suis parti, non, peut-être dans les années 80 et au début des années 90, on pouvait, chaque professeur connaissait tous les vendeurs de drogue de l'école, KT : Mhm. YV : et le chef de meute était l'un des enfants les plus intelligents de l'école. Très sociable. Très poli. Bonjour, mademoiselle. Comment allez-vous et tout le reste ? KT : C'est intéressant de voir comment ça marche YV : Et il a fait fortune, KT : Wow. Euh, et l'endroit où vous avez grandi, à Verdun ? YV : Oui. KT : Avez-vous remarqué, avez-vous remarqué quelque chose à propos de la drogue là-bas ? YV : Non, je ne peux pas dire que c'était le cas. Même en. Non, non, je pense que c'était quelque chose qui se faisait discrètement entre amis. KT : Oui. YV : Ce n'était pas, euh, vous savez, tout le parc qui s'illuminait. D'accord. Ce n'était pas, euh, vous savez, euh, Woodstock ou quelque chose comme ça. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Non, tout se faisait discrètement. Vous savez, vos amis, si vous, si vos, si c'était vos amis et que vous fumiez un joint, d'accord. C'était vos amis. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Ce n'était pas, vous savez, l'ensemble des 200 personnes qui sont là KT : Oui. YV : Avec vos amis, vous savez. KT : J'aimerais passer à l'expérience féminine. YV : Oh mon, ok. KT : Euh, en, oui, avec vos propres mots. Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait, euh, pour vous quand vous étiez à l'université ? Vous, vous avez dit que vous étiez dans une université de filles, n'est-ce pas ? Est-ce que c'était présent ou est-ce que c'était un peu n'importe quoi ? YV : Je ne pense pas que c'était une préoccupation majeure. Je ne pense pas que ce soit une préoccupation majeure. Je ne pense pas que le féminisme entre en jeu lorsque vous êtes à l'université avec un groupe de femmes. Je ne pense pas que le féminisme entre en jeu lorsque vous êtes à l'université avec un groupe de femmes. Ce n'est que si vous vous lancez dans une carrière ou quelque chose du genre, que cela se manifeste parce que vous n'avez pas eu ce genre d'attitude. Les hommes qui sont professeurs n'ont jamais eu ça. Les hommes qui sont professeurs n'ont jamais eu ce genre d'attitude. KT : Mhm. YV : Et nous avions beaucoup de femmes professeurs et elles étaient comme des modèles pour vous. Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Euh, une de mes professeures de physique était enceinte de neuf mois, elle est allée accoucher et a repris ses cours en deux jours. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord. Comme tout le monde l'a dit, était-elle vraiment enceinte ? KT : [rires] YV : Ce genre de choses. KT : Oui. Yep. YV : Mais elle l'était, vous savez, mais d'un autre côté, le docteur Tasik, qui était mon professeur de biologie, euh, elle était très, très féminine, vous savez, au point où, vous savez, elle, elle ne me donnerait pas un, elle ne relèverait pas, elle ne permettrait pas à une personne de passer. Un cours de bactériologie parce que cela me donnerait un 90 et elle ne le permettrait pas. YV : Maintenant, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Vous comprenez ? Est-ce parce qu'elle est contre les bonnes notes ? Je veux dire, quel était le problème avec le fait qu'elle ait eu 90, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : Et je n'arrivais jamais à obtenir une réponse d'elle, vous savez. KT : Mhm. YV : Donc, c'était peut-être très subtil. D'accord. Mais ce n'était pas quelque chose qui était promu et ce n'était donc pas quelque chose que, que nous, nous devions avoir euh autre que cette situation à Biochem et à McGill avec ce type. KT : Oui. YV : Jusqu'à ce que je dise finalement non. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et il a reculé. KT : Oui, et quand vous êtes devenue enseignante ? Avez-vous remarqué quelque chose de ce genre avec vos, euh, avez-vous eu d'autres collègues qui étaient des femmes ? Et est-ce que vous avez déjà parlé de ce genre de choses ? YV : Non, il faut se souvenir. J'ai 21 ans et je suis l'homme le plus bas du totem, KT : Oui YV : Vous savez, alors quelqu'un qui est là depuis 20 ans, ce n'est pas le cas, KT : Oui. YV : vous savez, on ne lance pas beaucoup de choses. Non, c'était seulement quand nous, quand, quand Paul et moi sommes allés à notre, euh, régional de Richmond. D'accord. Et je me suis impliqué dans les affaires syndicales et j'ai fait partie de ce qu'on appelle le conseil d'école. C'était l'équivalent d'un conseil étudiant, sauf que c'est au niveau de l'enseignant. D'accord ? Et, ou au niveau administratif. Et puis, on prenait ce qu'on apprenait au syndicat et on l'appliquait aux situations de l'école. Mais il fallait faire très, très attention parce que beaucoup d'hommes pensaient que, comme je l'ai dit, j'aurais dû rester à la maison et élever plus d'enfants anglais pour la communauté anglaise. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Ce que je, vous savez, si je, mon mari et je disais, si mon mari et mon père n'ont aucun problème avec le fait que je travaille, qu'est-ce que vous faites ? Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Vous n'avez pas le droit de me dire ce que je dois faire, vous savez. Donc ce n'était pas, c'était peut-être comme beaucoup d'enseignants masculins qui étaient là et dont les femmes restaient à la maison et élevaient leurs enfants. C'était donc une question de génération. KT : Mhm. YV : Et au fur et à mesure que les jeunes enseignants arrivaient, que les plus âgés prenaient leur retraite. Eh bien, nous ne pensions pas tous de cette façon. Vous savez, nous avions tous, je me souviens qu'il y avait un professeur dans notre école qui n'avait pas de chéquier, pas de carte de crédit. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord. Et c'était, elle est arrivée l'année avant que Shane n'obtienne son diplôme, en 86. D'accord. Je me souviens qu'une autre enseignante et moi-même lui avons dit : tu vas demander une carte de crédit, puis tu iras au magasin, tu achèteras quelque chose, tu le chargeras et quand la facture arrivera, tu la paieras. Et maintenant, votre ligne de crédit est établie, votre KT : Oui. YV : votre historique de crédit est établi. Ce n'est qu'à ce moment-là qu'elle a commencé à se rendre compte qu'elle gagnait de l'argent et qu'il fallait qu'elle prenne soin d'elle. Et c'est une bonne chose parce que son mari travaillait sur le toit et il est tombé, il était attaché, mais il est tombé et son dos a heurté la balustrade du balcon et l'a paralysé. Il est tombé et son dos a heurté la balustrade du balcon et l'a paralysé. KT : Oh wow. YV : Pendant deux ans, il a été en congé de maladie, puis il est retourné au travail. Il était professeur de mathématiques et il y avait un ascenseur dans l'école, alors il pouvait conduire et se déplacer dans l'ascenseur et monter jusqu'à sa salle de classe. D'accord, mais cela lui a imposé un lourd fardeau et elle a retrouvé sa stabilité financière grâce à ce que nous lui avions dit de faire. KT : Oui. YV : Il y avait donc, nous sommes à la fin des années quatre-vingt. Il y avait donc beaucoup de gens qui avaient des idées vraiment démodées et puis il y avait, vous savez, quelques uns d'entre nous dans la salle du personnel, nous avons dit non, non, non, non, non, nous ne ferons pas ça, KT : Yep. YV : vous savez, et comment économiser de l'argent et où le mettre à l'abri de l'impôt et toutes sortes de choses comme ça. D'accord, mais nous l'avons fait discrètement. Nous ne le faisions pas avec des hommes autour de nous. KT : Pensez-vous qu'il s'agissait davantage de s'entraider que de dire un grand " F U " aux hommes ? Et comme YV : Je pense que c'était plus une question d'entraide que de, vous savez, vous savez, le truc c'est qu'avec beaucoup, beaucoup d'hommes, certains n'auraient jamais dit un mot, mais il y en avait d'autres qui auraient rejeté l'idée. Pourquoi voulez-vous faire ça ? Pourquoi votre mari ne le fait-il pas ? Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Paul et moi nous sommes mariés la deuxième année. Il est allé chercher de l'argent à la banque. Et deux jours plus tard, il ne pouvait pas me dire où il avait dépensé les 200 dollars. Au début des années soixante-dix, 200 dollars, c'était beaucoup d'argent. KT : Oui. YV : Il m'a regardé et m'a dit : " Je veux que tu prennes en charge les finances KT : Intelligent. YV : Et il n'avait pas d'argent de poche ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Mais quand il voulait de l'argent, il pouvait aller à la banque. Mais je lui disais, d'accord. Qu'est-ce que tu as fait ? Tu as mis de l'essence dans la voiture ? Tu as acheté tes cigarettes ? KT : Oui. YV : Tu as acheté de la bière ? Vous avez acheté de la bière ? Oh, d'accord, et il a appris petit à petit. D'accord. C'est donc là que mon implication est intervenue KT : Oui. YV : Parce qu'avant cela, je ne faisais pas grand-chose. D'accord. Et c'est toujours mon père, qui était analphabète, qui signait les chèques, et non ma mère qui était alphabétisée, qui pouvait faire des maths, qui pouvait faire des choses comme ça ? Je n'ai pas pu obtenir de prêt. Euh, je devais faire signer mon mari pour un prêt. D'accord. KT : Wow. Ce n'est pas si loin. YV : Non, il n'y a pas si longtemps. Vous savez, c'était il n'y a pas si longtemps. Quoi qu'il en soit. KT : Hum. YV : Donc, le féminisme. Eh bien, je pense que nous avons travaillé tranquillement... KT : Oui. YV : à ce que nous pouvions faire. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, parce que ça ne faisait pas de vagues pour qui que ce soit, vous voyez ? KT : Donc, toutes les protestations sont plus américaines, selon vous ? Et YV : Oui. Eh bien, peut-être dans les grandes villes. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Par opposition au fait d'être américain, je pense que c'est le genre de grande ville, parce que leurs idées auraient été plus individuelles, parce qu'il n'y a pas ce genre de communauté. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et parce que dans une petite ville, tout le monde connaissait tout le monde, tout le monde connaissait Paul et moi, KT : Yep. YV : Ouais, il y a M. et Mme Voisard, vous savez, nous ne savions pas qui, qui ils étaient. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, mais ils savaient qui nous étions, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, il y a donc beaucoup de circonspection à laquelle il faut faire attention dans une petite communauté. Si vous voulez, vous savez, jeter votre soutien-gorge, c'est beaucoup plus facile de le faire en ville que d'aller au cénotaphe local... KT : Oui. YV : et, vous savez, faire tournoyer votre soutien-gorge parce que c'était une place à, à Richmond et c'était un cénotaphe, vous savez, donc, KT : Euh, nous avons parlé de la façon dont le fait d'être une femme entraînait un traitement différent et des attentes différentes dans les salles de classe. Quand vous avez eu ces, ces euh était-ce de la biochimie ? YV : Hm KT : avec euh les YV : Les étudiants de McGill ? KT : Avec les étudiants de McGill, avez-vous remarqué une différence de traitement de la part des professeurs ? Euh, non ? YV : Non. Euh, vous ne faites pas de laboratoires, n'est-ce pas ? KT : Non. YV : Ce qui se passe est ok. Dans un laboratoire ? Je vais supposer que c'est la même chose pour Abby. Je ne sais pas. Mais dans un laboratoire, euh, vous pouvez avoir une session de 20 ou 30 minutes, euh, euh, une session d'enseignement avant et ensuite vous donnez dans le laboratoire. KT : Et ensuite, il suffit de le faire YV : Allez-y. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Vous deviez donc lire le laboratoire. Vous saviez en quelque sorte sur quoi vous étiez censé travailler. KT : Mhm YV : Parce que vous venez d'avoir un cours sur le sujet. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Hum, mais vous, tout ce que vous aviez, c'était un technicien qui se promenait pour s'assurer que les éviers ne se bouchaient pas ou que vous pouviez obtenir un produit chimique particulier ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. KT : Mhm. YV : Vous avez juste travaillé pendant trois heures sur cette mission et vous êtes parti, vous savez. KT : Mhm. Hum. YV : Donc il n'y avait pas, il n'y avait pas, comme, je ne pense pas que j'ai vu le professeur du tout dans un laboratoire. KT : D'accord YV : D'accord. YV : C'était son étudiant de quatrième année ou quelque chose comme ça qui était technicien pour la journée, KT : Oui. Euh, quand vous étiez professeur, YV : Mhm. KT : Quand vous avez commencé à enseigner. Vous l'avez fait ? Je sais que vous avez enseigné à des lycéens. YV : Oui. KT : Ils sont donc un peu plus, je suppose, rebelles que, euh, que l'université. Mais avez-vous remarqué une différence de traitement entre les enfants et les enseignants masculins ? Ou ? YV : Je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas parce que, euh, votre classe est votre classe ? Vous ne savez pas, vous ne savez pas ce qui est... KT : Oui. YV : Ce qui se passe dans les autres classes, vous savez, vous ne voyez pas, et vous ne voyez pas beaucoup de choses dans le couloir. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, à l'époque. Je veux dire, vous n'étiez pas censé être dans un couloir, point, vous savez, euh, vous marchiez dans un couloir, quelqu'un pouvait vous arrêter et vous dire, qu'est-ce que vous faites ici ? KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, ce genre de choses. D'accord. KT : Mhm YV : Donc, non, je, je vais dire non, je ne suis pas au courant d'une quelconque, d'une quelconque différence entre les étudiants et les enseignants. Non. KT : D'accord. Euh... Est-ce qu'il y a eu des différences quand vous étiez à l'université ? YV : Oui, c'est vrai KT : Euh, y avait-il des programmes ? Hum. Vous avez mentionné que vous n'étiez pas nombreux dans le domaine des sciences. YV : Hm. KT : Des programmes ? Y avait-il des clubs à l'époque ? Hum YV : Hm. KT : Je ne peux même pas penser à un exemple de club. YV : Oui, je sais. Je sais que vous pensez à un club de théâtre, KT : Oui, des choses comme ça YV : Une chorale, des choses comme ça. En fait, je ne sais pas. Il n'y en avait pas, il n'y en avait pas pour les sciences. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Non, il n'y en a pas pour les sciences. Il y en avait peut-être dans la section art, dans la section B A. KT : Oui. YV : Je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas, mais ce n'était pas un truc de théâtre parce que je ne me souviens pas d'avoir assisté à des productions de théâtre. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Mes clubs étaient donc à l'extérieur, avec mes activités sportives, KT : Oui. YV : Avec les sports de ma ville. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. KT : Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture. Ce qui signifie que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social, à la fois à l'université et chez vous à Verdun ? Où aimiez-vous ? Vous considérez-vous comme devant faire quelque chose pour créer une société plus juste et un monde meilleur, comme, par exemple, pour moi qui ai grandi, toute cette histoire de changement climatique est, vous savez, énorme, comme beaucoup de gens de mon âge, oh vous devez recycler, recycler, recycler le changement climatique, vous savez, y avait-il quelque chose de ce genre quand vous étiez ? YV : Je vais dire non, non, je pense, je pense que c'était en grande partie une réforme de l'éducation à l'époque. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, et seules les personnes qui travaillaient dans l'éducation ou qui avaient des enfants dans le système scolaire étaient au courant. D'accord. Euh, le fossé entre les Français et les Anglais était en train de se creuser, vous savez, euh, euh, où le secteur français, vous deveniez médecin ou avocat ou vous travailliez... KT : Mhm YV : Ok. Donc, vous savez, à bien des égards, c'était exactement la même chose que le secteur anglais. J'ai une nièce qui a trois enfants, tous sont allés dans un collège ou un lycée privé. KT : Mhm. YV : Et puis ils sont allés dans des CEGEP privés dans le secteur français. KT : Oui. YV : Et ils sont maintenant, vous savez, soit à euh en fait deux d'entre eux ont étudié à l'université aux États-Unis. Le fait qu'ils soient allés dans un établissement privé français. KT : Oui. YV : Ils ont appris l'anglais. KT : Intéressant. YV : D'accord, parce qu'on n'apprend pas autant l'anglais dans le système public, dans le système français, que dans le secteur privé. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. C'est pourquoi, et je veux dire, dans le privé, je veux dire, 35 000 $ par an, Oui. YV : Je ne parle pas des trois ou quatre mille dollars où l'on peut aller pour citer ce qu'ils appellent un lycée privé français. KT : Oui YV : Euh, euh. Je veux dire, le vrai bon, il y avait beaucoup d'argent qui a été dépensé et beaucoup d'éducation. KT : Hm. YV : Ok. Donc, il n'y avait pas beaucoup de, je veux dire, le changement climatique n'était même pas un problème. D'accord. Euh, même pas, euh, le prix des aliments n'était pas un problème. Euh, même les voitures et, et le smog ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre n'était pas un problème. La moitié de la population du Québec n'avait pas de voiture. Nous utilisions les transports en commun KT : Oui. YV : pour aller partout dans la ville. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Oui. Donc, non, je ne pense pas, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu un problème majeur dont les gens étaient conscients. Par exemple, je veux dire, le Québec a commencé à établir son propre formulaire d'impôt sur le revenu en 60 67 68 72. Et je ne me souviens même pas d'avoir entendu parler de ça. KT : Hm. YV : D'accord. Ils, ils ont mis en place leur propre RRQ KT : Oui. YV : et leur propre régime d'impôt sur le revenu. KT : Intéressant YV : et je ne me souviens pas que quelqu'un ait fait des histoires à ce sujet. Je pense, je pense que ça a beaucoup à voir avec la société très patriarcale comme, euh, aujourd'hui la CAQ, euh, vous savez, c'est Legault, qui décide de tout. C'est pas son cabinet, c'est des conneries. KT : Ouais. YV : C'est lui qui dit oui. Non, ou quoi que ce soit. KT : Mhm. Avez-vous remarqué quelque chose, euh, comme aujourd'hui il y a beaucoup de, euh, de justice sociale pour, euh, les homosexuels YV : Oui, non. KT : Et les Noirs, et tout ça. YV : Non. KT : Y en avait-il ? Rien de tout cela ? YV : Non. Non. En fait, beaucoup de choses étaient probablement mal vues. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, beaucoup plus. Je veux dire, euh, euh, je ne sais pas combien de Noirs étaient autorisés à entrer pour citer le contiki. J'aime utiliser le contiki parce que c'était un bar anglais. KT : Mhm. YV : Ce genre de choses. Vous savez, ils avaient leurs propres établissements, vous savez, pour sortir pour toutes sortes de choses différentes, vous savez, et comme je l'ai dit, je ne me souviens même pas que des Noirs vivaient dans mon quartier à Verdun. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et la même chose s'applique à Richmond. Ce n'est que bien des années plus tard que nous avons eu une personne de couleur à l'école, à l'école, à l'école. Shane et Jason n'ont donc jamais grandi. Ils étaient au courant parce que nous les amenions partout où nous allions. Chaque fois que nous venions à Montréal et que nous allions au cinéma ou que nous restions à l'hôtel pendant le week-end pour un tournoi de natation ou de hockey, c'est là qu'ils voyaient une autre culture. KT : Mhm. YV : Mais c'était, vous savez, au hockey ou ailleurs. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Il n'y avait rien à, à Richmond et il y avait très peu à Sherbrooke KT : Et rien de tout cela n'était voulu, n'est-ce pas ? C'était juste, YV : Non, c'était comme ça. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Maintenant, je me souviens, hum, je me souviens quand les émeutes ont eu lieu à la fin des années 60 aux États-Unis, L.A. a explosé, KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Chicago a explosé. KT : Oui. YV : New Jersey. D'accord. Nous aurions, nous avions beaucoup de visiteurs qui venaient des États-Unis et beaucoup d'entre eux étaient noirs et, euh, je veux dire, ils devaient avoir de l'argent pour venir au Canada et y rester pour quelque raison que ce soit. Mais c'étaient les seuls que nous voyions dans nos restaurants. Normalement, nous n'avions pas de Noirs qui venaient au restaurant A&W. KT : Hm. YV : D'accord. Mais A&W est une chaîne aux États-Unis et ils la connaissent bien. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Alors ils, parce qu'il n'y avait pas de Burger King. Burger King n'est pas venu au Canada. Oh. Oh, Jason est né en 74-75. Burger King était encore aux États-Unis, il n'est pas venu au Canada KT : Oui. YV : Et McDonald's. Je ne sais même pas si McDonald's existait à l'époque. A&W était donc bien, et c'était une chaîne familière. KT : Mhm YV : Et je pense que c'est la raison pour laquelle nous avons, vous savez, KT : Oui, intéressant. YV : Donc, non, non, il n'y en avait pas. Nous, nous, nous n'avions tout simplement pas, KT : Oui. YV : On ne se rencontrait pas, on ne se réunissait pas pour quoi que ce soit. KT : Hm. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les idées de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? Comme YV : Je n'en ai aucune idée. KT : Oui, YV : Aucune idée à ce sujet. Je ne pense pas que papa et maman aient jamais eu quoi que ce soit de concret à dire à ce sujet, vous savez, quand Lilian a commencé à sortir ou quand Marcel a commencé à sortir ou quand j'ai commencé à sortir, il n'y avait pas de, vous savez, KT : On n'essayait pas de contrôler ? YV : Non, non, non, non, non, non. Je pense que nous avons été élevés à un point tel que nous savions, KT : Mhm. YV : vous savez, qu'il y avait des limites, KT : Oui. YV : Ce genre de choses KT : Oui. YV : que, ok, et nous absorbons simplement les limites et utilisons les limites. Euh, vous savez, sans même y penser. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. KT : Euh, étiez-vous en phase avec le système politique ? YV : Je vais dire que non, je ne l'étais pas. Je veux dire que je savais peut-être qui était le premier ministre à l'époque et des choses comme ça. Mais à part ça, non, et c'est seulement, vous savez, à Saint Joe's quand j'ai fait mon Bachelor of Education quand le rapport des parents est arrivé et c'était seulement parce que nous devions suivre un programme d'histoire de l'éducation. C'était uniquement parce que nous devions suivre un programme d'histoire de l'éducation. Bien sûr, il y a quelque chose qui va dans ce sens. KT : Mhm. YV : A part ça. Non. Non, KT : Intéressant YV : Ce n'était pas le cas. Hum, non, KT : ce n'était pas grand. YV : Ce n'était pas important. Je ne savais même pas qu'il y avait un maire de Verdun, et nous habitions en face de l'hôtel de ville. KT : Oui. YV : Non, la politique n'était pas, KT : pas aussi importante qu'elle l'est. YV : Non. KT : Pensez-vous que cela ait un rapport avec la connectivité de la société d'aujourd'hui ? Hum, YV : Eh bien, je pense, je pense, oui, je pense que le fait que tant de choses peuvent se produire et qu'en deux minutes, tout le monde sait ce qui se passe. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Hum, et je suis sûr que cela a beaucoup à voir avec le, euh, le Vietnam et les reportages sur le Vietnam et puis, et puis Nixon qui s'est retrouvé dans les problèmes qu'il, et, et puis, vous savez, comme si tout d'un coup il y avait un procès à la télévision, comme, je veux dire, le juge était juste là et ils, vous savez, vous savez, ils interrogeaient John Dean et tous les, les gens qui travaillaient pour, pour Nixon, vous savez, comme si cela n'était jamais arrivé nulle part à aucun moment. Et puis tout d'un coup, vous savez, KT : Boom. YV : Boom, toutes ces choses ont commencé à sortir, vous savez, et ça a pu soulever quelques questions sur ce qui se passait au Québec ou, vous savez, vous savez, Renée Lévesque se présentant comme, euh, vous savez, le PQ et, et ce genre de choses. Mais au début des années 70, non. KT : Avez-vous, euh, quelle a été la première fois que vous avez voté, si vous avez voté ? YV : Oh, oui, j'ai voté quand j'ai eu le droit de voter. KT : D'accord. YV : J'ai voté tout le temps, j'ai toujours voté. KT : Et c'était plus, euh, vous votiez pour un parti spécifique ou vous, vous votiez pour la personne ? YV : Cela dépendait. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, mais la plupart du temps, c'était au niveau fédéral, c'était pour le parti au niveau provincial. Ça variait parce qu'il n'y avait pas de PQ impliqué là-dedans. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Vous pouviez donc, euh, vous savez, légitimement, vous savez, voter pour un individu. KT : Oui. YV : Et plus tard, euh, à Richmond, par exemple, euh, même dans la politique municipale, c'était pour l'individu. D'accord ? Et puis pour le provincial, c'était, c'était politique, c'était le parti. Mais au niveau fédéral, c'était ce qu'il y avait sur la liste, pas les gens, KT : Mhm YV : mais ce qu'il y avait sur la liste. Ok. Donc ça, ça a changé. D'accord. De faire, c'est quelque chose de très spécifique à prendre des décisions plus, euh, décisives et de savoir que si vous alliez dans un sens, votre vote ne compterait pour rien, mais il montrerait au moins qu'il y avait une dissidence, qu'il y avait des voix dissidentes. KT : Oui. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, donc vous avez dit que vous n'étiez pas vraiment au courant ou en phase avec le système politique ? Saviez-vous si, euh, comme pour moi qui ai grandi, j'ai toujours, euh, l'Ouest de l'île a toujours été très libéral, n'est-ce pas ? J'ai voté quand j'avais 18 ans. Peu importe pour qui je votais. Les libéraux allaient gagner. Aviez-vous la même attitude à Verdun ? Hum, ou est-ce que ça changeait, vous savez ? YV : Non, je n'ai pas voté à Verdun. Je ne pense pas, je, je ne me souviens pas avoir voté à Verdun. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Et je ne pense pas que ce soit parce que je n'ai pas voté. Je pense que c'est parce qu'il n'y avait pas d'élection. Je pense que c'est parce qu'il n'y a pas eu d'élections. KT : Intéressant. YV : Oui, je ne pense pas, d'accord, parce qu'ensuite j'ai déménagé KT : Oui. YV : A Richmond. KT : Oui. YV : Et c'est là que le vote a eu lieu. C'est là que le vote a eu lieu. Et c'est là que vous avez voté ? D'accord. Eh bien, il s'agissait en grande partie de politique. C'était en grande partie, euh, le français contre l'anglais. Il y avait beaucoup de choses qui se passaient à l'époque et c'est ce qui décidait de la façon dont vous alliez voter. KT : Intéressant. Les historiens ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les pratiques de drague. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? YV : Probablement à un niveau philosophique. Je ne sais pas si c'est le cas à un niveau philosophique. KT : Pratiquement YV : Pratiquement, vous savez, KT : Oui YV : J'ai utilisé des pilules contraceptives, comme, vous savez, KT : Mhm. YV : tout le monde, vous savez, ce genre de choses. Et, et puis j'ai failli, j'ai cru que j'étais enceinte la troisième fois et ça n'allait pas. Mais c'est à ce moment-là que nous avons décidé que je ne pouvais pas. C'est un point intéressant. Je ne pouvais pas me faire ligaturer les trompes parce que je n'avais pas 30 ans. KT : Mhm. YV : et je n'avais pas trois enfants. Et le médecin me l'a dit catégoriquement. KT : Hm. YV : Alors quand je suis rentrée chez moi et que je l'ai dit à Paul, je lui ai dit que je ne pouvais pas me faire ligaturer les trompes ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Il a dit, d'accord, alors il va subir une vasectomie. Et maintenant, les deux, les deux garçons ont subi une vasectomie. D'accord ? Deux enfants. Et c'était ça KT : Hm. YV : plus rien. D'accord ? KT : Intéressant. YV : Oui, c'était vraiment, vous savez, comme, je veux dire, je pense que c'était un vrai choc KT : Oui. YV : Pour moi, avoir un médecin. Dites-moi que je ne pouvais pas décider qu'il y avait un autocrate quelque part dans le département de la santé qui disait que je ne pouvais pas faire ça ? KT : Wow. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, vous avez dit que les rendez-vous étaient beaucoup plus formels. YV : Mhm. KT : Euh, est-ce que c'était la même chose à l'université ? Quand vous êtes allée à Richmond, étiez-vous déjà avec YV : Paul KT : Paul ? YV : Oui KT : D'accord. Alors où, où l'avez-vous rencontré ? YV : à mon baccalauréat en éducation à Saint Joe's ? KT : D'accord. Il avait suivi un programme de quatre ans à Saint Mary's, à Halifax. KT : Mhm. YV : Et il ne savait pas ce qu'il allait faire après. Il a donc suivi le programme d'éducation. Entre-temps, il a décidé d'aller à Oxford ou à Cambridge et d'y faire une année d'études. KT : Mhm. YV : Et il a demandé à son professeur de Saint Mary's de contacter Cambridge ou, ou ce que vous faites, c'est que vous postulez et l'un d'entre eux vous prendra, pas les deux. C'est un peu comme le système des CEGEP, KT : Oui YV : vous savez, au Québec KT : Oui. YV : Vous envoyez le formulaire et ils vous disent ce qu'ils veulent. D'accord. Eh bien, c'est la même chose. Il a donc été accepté à Oxford. KT : Wow. YV : Après avoir obtenu notre diplôme, je suis allée travailler et il est allé à Oxford pendant un an pour étudier l'anthropologie. Il a fait de l'anthropologie. KT : C'est intéressant. YV : Et puis, et puis quand il est revenu, on a tous les deux euh cherché des emplois et il avait une soeur qui, qui avait un ami qui était psychologue à la commission scolaire régionale des Cantons de l'Est à l'époque où ça s'appelait et ils ouvraient l'école secondaire régionale de Richmond et ils cherchaient des enseignants KT : Hm. YV : Nous avons donc posé notre candidature et nous avons obtenu le poste. J'ai obtenu un poste en sciences et il a obtenu un poste en histoire. KT : Wow. Hum, comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Était-ce une nécessité ? Hum, c'était comme, ou, ou, ou désolé. Est-ce que c'était comme si c'était juste ce que vous faisiez ? C'est juste ce que vous alliez faire. YV : C'est ce que vous avez fait. Oui, à l'époque. Bien que, euh, j'avais beaucoup de gens à l'école qui ne s'étaient pas mariés mais qui vivaient ensemble. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. Je me souviens d'une secrétaire qui m'a dit un jour, sans crier gare, que je n'avais pas d'enfants, Yvette, et je l'ai regardée et j'ai dit : " Je m'en fous ". KT : [rires] YV : Que tu n'aies pas d'enfants, je pensais que ce n'était pas mon problème. KT : Oui. YV : Eh bien, tout le monde pense que je devrais en avoir. Eh bien, si vous n'en voulez pas, s'il vous plaît, n'en ayez pas, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez ? KT : Oui. YV : Oh, ça ne vous dérange pas ? pourquoi diable ne le ferais-je pas ? Je n'arrivais pas à m'en remettre parce que c'était une femme à l'esprit fort. KT : Mhm. YV : De toute évidence, sa famille l'avait poussée à avoir des enfants et elle n'en voulait pas. KT : Mhm. YV : Je pense donc que les attentes ont commencé par suivre la même vieille règle, vous savez, vous vous mariez, vous avez des enfants, vous bla bla bla, et puis je pense que cela a lentement commencé à se relâcher. Les gens vivaient ensemble et avaient des enfants, mais ne se mariaient pas. KT : Mhm. YV : Ou ils vivaient ensemble, mais n'avaient pas d'enfants. D'accord. Hum, l'autre chose, c'est que dans l'enseignement, vous rencontrez tellement de mauvaises situations que cela, vous savez, vous ouvre les yeux sur beaucoup de situations différentes qui, vous savez, vous font vraiment remettre en question certaines des choses que vous pourriez décider de faire, vous savez. KT : Oui. YV : Euh, oui. KT : Hum, pour en venir à la sexualité et au harcèlement. YV : Hm. KT : Donc, comme je l'ai dit, si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise pour répondre à l'une ou l'autre de ces questions, vous n'avez qu'à le faire, YV : Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été impliqué dans quelque chose de ce genre que j'appellerais. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. KT : Hum, YV : Patriarcale. Oui. D'ACCORD. Dans le sens où je suis le patron et que c'est toujours un homme... KT : Oui. YV : et c'est ce que vous allez faire, mais je ne dirais pas que c'est du harcèlement sexuel. Je n'ai pas eu droit à ce genre de choses, même au restaurant. Je n'ai jamais eu ça KT : intéressant. Aujourd'hui, on fait beaucoup pour lutter contre le harcèlement sexuel. Il n'y avait rien de tout cela à l'époque ? YV : Pas que je sache. KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, je veux dire, je n'ai jamais rencontré la police pour, pour quoi que ce soit, vous savez, comme s'ils étaient là ou pas là, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, KT : Hum, YV : Ils étaient les gentils de toute façon, nous étions tous, vous savez, la police était gentille. Les pompiers étaient de bons gars. Les ambulanciers étaient de bons gars. Vous savez, vous n'aviez pas à remettre tout en question, KT : Oui YV : Vous savez, vous n'aviez pas, ce n'était pas, vous savez, KT : Donc ça a changé. YV : Oui. Tu sais, n'importe qui, comme, comme, tu sais, Jason a eu un très mauvais accident, euh, quand il était dehors avec ses amis, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous savez, et les amis ne savaient pas quoi faire. Alors ils ont arrêté une voiture sur l'autoroute et ils l'ont mis dans la voiture et, et ils nous ont téléphoné et nous ont dit que le gars l'avait conduit à l'hôpital. Savez-vous de quel hôpital il s'agit ? Non. KT : [rires] YV : Paul et moi avons failli Bref, nous l'avons trouvé KT : Oui. YV : à l'hôpital et quelqu'un l'avait déposé à l'hôpital. Et nous n'avons aucune idée de l'identité de ce brave homme. Et nous n'avons aucune idée de l'identité de ce bon samaritain, KT : Oui. YV : mais il avait 12 ans. C'était donc en 86. Je vous le dis, toutes les mauvaises idées nous sont passées par la tête KT : Ouais YV : jusqu'à ce qu'on le trouve, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, et, et ils étaient, vous savez, vous voyez, les enfants allaient parfaitement bien parce qu'ils faisaient confiance à cet adulte dans la voiture. KT : Oui YV : et vous, vous savez, comme nous, nous n'avons jamais rien dit de mal. Nous n'avons jamais, vous savez, passé un mauvais quart d'heure ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. On a juste croisé les doigts, vous savez, et KT : C'est, euh, très différent d'aujourd'hui. YV : Oui. KT : Euh, je ne pense pas, je pense que nous manquons de temps. Oui, nous n'avons pratiquement plus de temps. Donc, euh, ok, merci. Et Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voisard, Yvette (interview) Description An account of the resource Oral history about Mrs. Voisard's university experience in the mid 1960s, as well as her teaching experience in the 1970s. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MPEG-4 Audio (.m4a), 58 minutes, 16 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1960s 1970s Bachelor of Education Bachelor of Science Bilingualism Campus Life Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Marianopolis College Marriage Popular Music Protest Race Richmond, Quebec Social life Sports Verdun, Quebec Vietnam Vietnam War Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Major, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00 EM: The date is October 25th, 2023. This is an oral interview with MP, the interviewer is Elizabeth Major and the topic is life on campus 0:14 EM: Cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. There were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured; or what did UOttawa students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:38 PM: In the 1970s, um…I think it was pretty much a reflection of what the American culture was. It was not that restricted, it was pretty liberal. So we went to dances. There were a lot of clubs that opened, discotechs, and, of course we all had cars, or at least we aspired to have cars. We had motorcycles and, so we went out a lot and socialized a lot but also there were drive thrus for, new drive thrus for places like McDonalds which had just opened recently and A&W, so we did a lot of socializing that way. There were a lot of uh school dances still and so we went to school dances and that was about the just of it. 1:42 EM: And um what were the most popular hang out spots on and off campus? 1:47 PM: On campus uh it was usually… let me think of it now, in high school you mean? 1:59 EM: At uOttawa. 2:00 PM: Oh at Ottawa U. Um the most popular places were probably the cafeteria where people would sit down and do their work, and of course for social, or not much for socializing but the library, we spent a lot of time in the library. And then on the weekends well there were dances at the community center in the hub and stuff at Ottawa U. And uh yeah it was a good social life. 2:29 EM: And did you live on campus? 2:32 PM: No I did not. 2:34 EM: And did the student body generally live on campus or with their parents? 2:36 PM: uh most of them lived independently and had apartments in the area around Ottawa U, the people that I knew anyways a lot of them were international students and uh they lived in the Sandy Hill area, there were a lot of rooms available then, small apartments and it was pretty well crammed with students 3:05 EM: And what countries were the international students mainly from? 3:11 PM: uh mostly from..well my friends were from Ethiopia, two very good friends from Ethiopia. Other ones were from uh Norway, and uh and England uh…I can't think of anything else. Not a lot of other cultures…oh there was some on the fringe I suppose a few Indian students but not very many at that point. 3: 41 EM: Did you attend any live music events during your university years? 3:46 PM: Yes, I did. I applied, I applied uh to concerts in Ottawa. Bob Dylan concert and what else was there, there was some lots of live bands in the clubs, we used to go to the live bands in the clubs a lot, different types of music, Blues bands, Rock and Roll, a lot of Jazz singers so we tried everything we just went everywhere. 4:20 EM: uOttawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s; did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? 4:34 PM: I don’t know because personally I took a lot of classes in French and so I knew a lot of French students and uh we all got along and there wasn’t any problems and of course I took a lot of English classes too so I met a lot of English kids but there were not a lot of cross references so a lot of the French kids stuck to the French courses and the English kids stuck to the English courses. I was perhaps an exception because I enjoyed the uh French grammar and French literature so I took a lot of those courses 5:12 EM: And did anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s? 5:17 PM: Uh yes they did. Some friends of mine who were mixed French and English dated each other and also international students dated Francophone students and international students also dated, the ones that I knew, English students. 5:39 EM: We use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? 5:49 PM: The 70s were well pretty well a reflection of the general public as I said people were going out to clubs a lot and listened to live music a lot, and although there were a lot of events on campus too on Saturday nights in the cafeteria, especially they had bands in there too so we went there as well. So party culture was not…it was mostly limited to weekends and stuff because we were all busy during the week. I would say there was not a great deal of carousing during the the week we were pretty serious. 6:36 EM: And what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 6:38 PM: There was a lot of division about Vietnam uh throughout North America as a reflection of and on the university there were mostly protests which were against the war and I personally had a connection with a couple of guys who had gone over there and I never heard from again. They were Americans at that point I was hitchhiking across Canada and I got a ride with a guy in a VW and he was anyways, he never came back he was an American. And also um people that were avoiding the draft that I knew about that I talked to a couple times. And they were adamant that they were not going to go over there and kill everybody because it was just wrong. 7:38 EM: And so, Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 7: 50 PM: Uh my father thought that the Rock and Roll was stupid and crazy and that everybody that was rebelling they were all morons and that had no idea of what reality is in terms of society so he was not very sympathetic to any protest…but he was also mysogynistic. 8:18 EM: Some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 8: 29 PM: Recreational drugs were available if you wanted them. They were fairly easy to get; just ask a friend who knew a friend and uh you’d get some. There was never a lot of money involved. It was not a big sale thing I knew people would give them away, give marijuana to other people to you know, just have a good time. And it was not as it is today a big uh business. It was just free for everybody and everybody helped everybody else out if they wanted some drugs they could have some. But there was mostly marijuana anyway, no hard drugs in those days. 9: 10 EM: So um to follow up on that, people from the 1970s speak about “tripping” and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 9:25 PM: Uh some did some because possibly following Timothy Leary who was a professor at uh in the states who advocated the use of LSD for enlightenment to change your ideas and your perceptions. And so some students did and uh and uh it was not a general usage, it was isolated i’d say to a few students but it was also driven by curiosity rather than by habits or any thrills or anything like that . 10: 11 EM: Um Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? 10: 31 PM: The women in the 1970s were smart, really intelligent, they were assertive, and they knew that they were going through uh a phase where they would become more assertive - that they were no longer just baby machines, and they wanted to have their own place in society and uh we respected that. 11:04 EM: And In your own words, what did “feminism” signify in Canada during the early 1970s? 11: 11 PM: As I said, women were coming to terms with the fact that the roles were not restricted by their biology and that they had an opportunity, although it was probably not well defined at that point, exactly what they were gonna do and what they wanted to do. They knew that they had to do something different and that they were going to be reasonably happy and as I say, not restricted anymore from school and just raising children. 11: 42 EM: Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to male students? 11: 56 PM: I’d say the classrooms…the classrooms I was in anyway, was not much different they were pretty liberal. And in terms of social events, there were, there was still discrimination in terms of women, in terms of what was expected of them and what people could perceive them as. And, however, there was also a lot of other people that stood up for them when they were being, they thought that there was some injustice, the males that is. So there was a transition, there was something happening socially. 12: 43 EM: In the 1970s were there UOttawa programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? 12: 51 PM: Programs and clubs? I don’t know that that’s true. I don’t think they were less accepted than anyone else in the classroom, they were all treated the same and we listened as well on an equal basis. We were there to learn and we were all learning from each other - males and females. 13: 19 EM: Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents’ generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? So, To what extent did your generation believe that your parents’ notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 13: 44 PM: Well we knew that intrinsically because our parents, our parents were just caught up in an ideology that was just untenable because we saw basically all our friends and people that I hung around with and stuff they were all…their parents were just miserable all the time. They were unhappy their marriages, the women didn’t seem very happy and general feeling of unease and not feeling to reproduce the same things. We all felt that we had to change something, both the men and the women and our perception of we were gonna do it, we had to do it ourselves and it was difficult at times because there was a lot of arguing around the kitchen table but it had to happen. And we set forth and consciously tried to do that. 14:44 EM: And Looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? 14: 56 PM: What aspects of society? Well I think, I think that overall it was the ideology that men and women were set in their own roles and women had particular roles in society and they were expected to fulfill those roles as mothers and caregivers and the men were to go out and work all day and bring home the money and give the money to the woman to run the household. And basically the men had a lot more freedom and could go off in the evening whereas the women were still stuck at home with their children and doing homework and so on and so forth so. 15:55 EM: What were the principal forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 16: 03 PM: Injustice. I don’t know that you could term it injustice if Everybody believed that it was just its just the way things ought to be . That men should go out and work, that women should stay home and that was just the way everybody thought about it and that’s what was accepted at the time until of course the kids decided to say well no that’s not the way it should be, it's just not fair and nobodys happy. Everybody was just miserable. 16:38 EM: And did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens’ needs? 16:46 PM: Whose needs? 16:47 EM: citizens’ needs. 16:48 PM: Yes, of course. Politics is always a reflection of what the trends in society and it was still fairly democratic in terms of the citizens overall given the ideology at the time and the customs. 17:08 EM: Um Cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the ‘free love’ ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with that statement? 17: 25 PM: Yes, absolutely. Getting the pill and uh access to abortion was a key element in the changes that we all sought and the women sought for sure because it allowed them the freedom to be a part of the workforce and be more than what their mothers and grandmothers were. 17: 51 EM: And what did dating look like at the University of Ottawa during the early 1970s? 17:58 PM: Dating? 17:58EM: yes 18:00 PM: Dating was pretty regular, they were all very young of course. They girls were young, the boys were young, we were all feeling our way along and we were all pretty tolerant of each other. 18: 17 EM: And how did your generation look at family and marriage? 18: 23 PM: our generation rejected marriage and we thought that family had to change because it just didn’t work the way it was. All my friends were not happy with the way their parents were. 18:45 EM: So was marriage part of your long-term relationship plans for you and your peers? 18: 49 PM: No, not necessarily, in fact, many of us lived common law. Girls accepted it, we accepted it and we just lived together freely. As we were supposed to be free from all conventions and from all the deterioration of marriage and the commitment we were experimenting. It was frowned upon by our elders and it was not really accepted, not like it is today. Transcription Translation 0:00 EM : La date est le 25 octobre 2023. Il s'agit d'un entretien oral avec MP, l'intervieweuse est Elizabeth Major et le sujet est la vie sur le campus. 0:14 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment vos loisirs étaient-ils structurés, ou que faisaient les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? 0:38 PM : Dans les années 1970, euh... je pense que c'était un peu le reflet de ce qu'était la culture américaine. Elle n'était pas si restreinte, elle était plutôt libérale. Nous allions donc danser. Il y avait beaucoup de clubs qui s'ouvraient, des discothèques, et, bien sûr, nous avions tous des voitures, ou du moins nous aspirions à en avoir. Nous avions des motos et, donc nous sortions beaucoup et nous socialisions beaucoup, mais il y avait aussi des drive thrus pour, de nouveaux drive thrus pour des endroits comme McDonalds qui venait d'ouvrir récemment et A&W, donc nous socialisions beaucoup de cette façon. Il y avait encore beaucoup de bals d'école et nous allions aux bals d'école, et c'était à peu près tout. 1:42 EM : Et quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? 1:47 PM : Sur le campus, c'était généralement... laissez-moi y penser maintenant, au lycée, vous voulez dire ? 1:59 EM : À l'Université d'Ottawa. 2:00 PM : OH, À L'UNIVERSITÉ D'OTTAWA : Les endroits les plus populaires étaient probablement la cafétéria où les gens s'asseyaient et travaillaient, et bien sûr pour les activités sociales, ou pas vraiment pour les activités sociales, mais la bibliothèque, nous passions beaucoup de temps à la bibliothèque. Et puis le week-end, il y avait des soirées dansantes au centre communautaire dans le hub et d'autres choses à Ottawa U. Et euh oui, c'était une bonne vie sociale. 2:29 EM : Et vous viviez sur le campus ? 2:32 PM : NON : Non, je ne vivais pas sur le campus. 2:34 EM : Et les étudiants vivaient-ils généralement sur le campus ou avec leurs parents ? 2:36 PM : Euh, la plupart d'entre eux vivaient indépendamment et avaient des appartements dans les environs de l'Université d'Ottawa, les gens que je connaissais en tout cas, beaucoup d'entre eux étaient des étudiants internationaux et euh, ils vivaient dans le quartier de Sandy Hill, il y avait beaucoup de chambres disponibles à l'époque, de petits appartements et c'était assez bien rempli d'étudiants. 3:05 EM : Et de quels pays venaient principalement les étudiants étrangers ? 3:11 PM : Euh, principalement de... eh bien, mes amis venaient d'Éthiopie, deux très bons amis d'Éthiopie. D'autres venaient de Norvège, et d'Angleterre... Je ne me souviens de rien d'autre. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'autres cultures... Oh, il y en avait un peu en marge, je suppose, quelques étudiants indiens, mais pas beaucoup à ce moment-là. 3:41 EM : Avez-vous assisté à des concerts pendant vos années d'université ? 3:46 PM : Oui, j'y ai assisté. J'ai postulé, j'ai postulé euh à des concerts à Ottawa. Il y avait beaucoup de groupes de musique dans les clubs, nous allions souvent voir des groupes de musique dans les clubs, différents types de musique, des groupes de blues, de rock and roll, beaucoup de chanteurs de jazz, alors nous avons tout essayé, nous sommes allés partout. 4:20 EM : L'Université d'Ottawa était une institution bilingue. Les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient-ils aux mêmes cours universitaires et participaient-ils aux mêmes clubs ? 4:34 PM : Je ne sais pas parce que personnellement, j'ai pris beaucoup de cours en français et j'ai donc connu beaucoup d'étudiants français et nous nous sommes tous entendus et il n'y a pas eu de problèmes. Bien sûr, j'ai pris beaucoup de cours en anglais aussi et j'ai donc rencontré beaucoup d'étudiants anglais mais il n'y avait pas beaucoup de références croisées et beaucoup d'étudiants français s'en tenaient aux cours de français et les étudiants anglais aux cours d'anglais. J'étais peut-être une exception parce que j'aimais la grammaire française et la littérature française, alors j'ai suivi beaucoup de ces cours. 5:12 EM : Et est-ce que les anglophones et les francophones se fréquentaient pendant les années 70 ? 5:17 PM : Euh, oui. Certains de mes amis qui étaient à la fois français et anglais sortaient ensemble et les étudiants internationaux sortaient avec des étudiants francophones et les étudiants internationaux sortaient aussi, ceux que je connaissais, avec des étudiants anglais. 5:39 EM : Nous utilisons le terme "culture de la fête" pour faire référence aux activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? 5:49 PM : Les années 70 reflétaient assez bien le grand public, comme je l'ai dit, les gens sortaient beaucoup en boîte et écoutaient beaucoup de musique live, et bien qu'il y ait eu beaucoup d'événements sur le campus le samedi soir à la cafétéria, il y avait aussi des groupes de musique, alors nous y allions aussi. La culture de la fête n'était donc pas... elle était surtout limitée aux week-ends et à d'autres choses parce que nous étions tous occupés pendant la semaine. Je dirais qu'il n'y avait pas beaucoup de fêtes pendant la semaine, nous étions plutôt sérieux. 6:36 EM : Et que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? 6:38 PM : Il y avait beaucoup de divisions au sujet du Vietnam, dans toute l'Amérique du Nord, comme un reflet de l'université, il y avait surtout des protestations contre la guerre et j'étais personnellement en contact avec deux gars qui étaient allés là-bas et dont je n'ai plus jamais entendu parler. Ils étaient américains à l'époque, je faisais de l'auto-stop à travers le Canada et j'ai été pris en stop par un gars dans une VW et il était de toute façon, il n'est jamais revenu, c'était un Américain. Et aussi des gens qui évitaient l'appel sous les drapeaux et dont je connaissais l'existence, à qui j'ai parlé plusieurs fois. Et ils étaient catégoriques sur le fait qu'ils n'allaient pas aller là-bas et tuer tout le monde parce que ce n'était pas bien. 7:38 EM : Dans les années 60, les artistes du Rock and Roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le Rock and Roll comme une forme de rébellion ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire ? 7:50 PM : Mon père pensait que le Rock and Roll était stupide et fou et que tous ceux qui se rebellaient étaient des crétins qui n'avaient aucune idée de ce qu'est la réalité en termes de société, donc il n'était pas très favorable aux protestations... mais il était aussi mysogyne. 8:18 EM : Certaines voix de la culture des jeunes des années 1970 ont encouragé la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur les campus au cours des années 1970 ? 8:29 PM : Les drogues récréatives étaient disponibles si vous en vouliez. Elles étaient assez faciles à obtenir ; il suffisait de demander à un ami qui connaissait un ami et, euh, on en obtenait. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'argent en jeu. Je savais que les gens les donnaient, donnaient de la marijuana à d'autres personnes pour, vous savez, passer un bon moment. Et ce n'était pas comme aujourd'hui un gros commerce. C'était gratuit pour tout le monde et tout le monde aidait les autres, s'ils voulaient de la drogue, ils pouvaient en avoir. Mais il y avait surtout de la marijuana, pas de drogues plus dures. 9;10 EM : Pour poursuivre, les gens des années 70 parlent de "tripping" et de prendre des psychédéliques pour atteindre un état de conscience plus élevé. Dans quelle mesure les étudiants du campus consommaient-ils des hallucinogènes ? 9:25 PM : Certains l'ont fait parce qu'ils suivaient peut-être Timothy Leary, un professeur aux États-Unis qui prônait l'utilisation du LSD pour s'éclairer et changer ses idées et ses perceptions. Certains étudiants l'ont fait et ce n'était pas un usage général, c'était isolé, je dirais, pour quelques étudiants, mais c'était aussi motivé par la curiosité plutôt que par des habitudes ou des sensations fortes ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. 10:11 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, selon lequel, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? 10:31 PM : Les femmes des années 1970 étaient intelligentes, vraiment intelligentes, elles s'affirmaient, et elles savaient qu'elles traversaient une phase où elles s'affirmeraient davantage - qu'elles n'étaient plus de simples bébés-machines, et qu'elles voulaient avoir leur propre place dans la société, et euh, nous respections cela. 11:04 EM : Et selon vos propres termes, que signifiait le " féminisme " au Canada au début des années 1970 ? 11:11 PM : Comme je l'ai dit, les femmes acceptaient le fait que les rôles n'étaient pas limités par leur biologie et qu'elles avaient la possibilité, même si ce n'était probablement pas bien défini à ce moment-là, de savoir exactement ce qu'elles allaient faire et ce qu'elles voulaient faire. Elles savaient qu'elles devaient faire quelque chose de différent et qu'elles allaient être raisonnablement heureuses et, comme je l'ai dit, qu'elles n'étaient plus limitées à l'école et à l'éducation des enfants. 11:42 EM : Les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcées dans les années 70 qu'aujourd'hui. En quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait-il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux des étudiants masculins dans les salles de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux ? 11:56 PM : Je dirais que les salles de classe... les salles de classe dans lesquelles j'étais en tout cas, n'étaient pas très différentes, elles étaient plutôt libérales. Et en termes d'événements sociaux, il y avait, il y avait encore de la discrimination à l'égard des femmes, en termes de ce que l'on attendait d'elles et de ce que les gens pouvaient percevoir d'elles. Mais il y avait aussi beaucoup d'autres personnes qui les défendaient lorsqu'elles pensaient qu'il y avait une injustice, c'est-à-dire les hommes. Il y a donc eu une transition, il s'est passé quelque chose sur le plan social. 12:43 EM : Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'Université d'Ottawa où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptées ? 12:51 PM : Des programmes et des clubs ? Je ne sais pas si c'est vrai. Je ne pense pas qu'elles étaient moins acceptées que n'importe qui d'autre dans la salle de classe, elles étaient toutes traitées de la même façon et nous écoutions aussi sur un pied d'égalité. Nous étions là pour apprendre et nous apprenions tous les uns des autres - hommes et femmes. 13:19 EM : Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? 13:44 PM : Nous le savions intrinsèquement parce que nos parents, nos parents étaient pris dans une idéologie qui était tout simplement intenable parce que nous avons vu tous nos amis et les gens avec qui je traînais, ils étaient tous... leurs parents étaient tout simplement malheureux tout le temps. Ils étaient malheureux dans leur mariage, les femmes ne semblaient pas très heureuses, et il y avait un sentiment général de malaise et de ne pas avoir envie de reproduire les mêmes choses. Nous avions tous le sentiment qu'il fallait changer quelque chose, les hommes comme les femmes, et notre perception de ce que nous allions faire, nous devions le faire nous-mêmes, et c'était parfois difficile parce qu'il y avait beaucoup de disputes autour de la table de la cuisine, mais il fallait le faire. Nous nous sommes mis en route et avons consciemment essayé de le faire. 14:44 EM : Et si l'on se réfère aux années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait-on comme le plus détraqué et le plus à corriger ? 14:56 PM : Quels aspects de la société ? Eh bien, je pense que dans l'ensemble, c'était l'idéologie selon laquelle les hommes et les femmes avaient leurs propres rôles et les femmes avaient des rôles particuliers dans la société et on attendait d'elles qu'elles remplissent ces rôles en tant que mères et soignantes et les hommes devaient sortir et travailler toute la journée et ramener l'argent à la maison et donner l'argent à la femme pour qu'elle s'occupe du ménage. En fait, les hommes avaient beaucoup plus de liberté et pouvaient sortir le soir, tandis que les femmes restaient à la maison avec leurs enfants, à faire leurs devoirs, etc. 15:55 EM : Quelles étaient les principales formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne au cours des années 1970 ? 16:03 PM : L'injustice. Je ne sais pas si on peut parler d'injustice si tout le monde croit que c'est juste, que c'est comme ça que les choses devraient être. Les hommes devaient sortir et travailler, les femmes devaient rester à la maison et c'était la façon dont tout le monde pensait et c'était ce qui était accepté à l'époque jusqu'à ce que les enfants décident de dire que non, ce n'est pas comme ça que ça devrait être, que ce n'est pas juste et que personne n'est heureux. Tout le monde était malheureux. 16:38 EM : Et avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? 16:46 PM : Les besoins de qui ? 16:47 EM : Les besoins des citoyens. 16:48 PM : Oui, bien sûr. La politique est toujours le reflet des tendances de la société et c'était encore assez démocratique en termes de citoyens dans l'ensemble, étant donné l'idéologie de l'époque et les coutumes. 17:08 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de "l'amour libre" ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? 17:25 PM : Oui, absolument. L'obtention de la pilule et l'accès à l'avortement étaient un élément clé des changements que nous recherchions tous et que les femmes recherchaient certainement parce que cela leur donnait la liberté de faire partie de la main-d'œuvre et d'être plus que ce qu'étaient leurs mères et leurs grands-mères. 17:51 EM : Et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? 17:58 PM : Des rencontres ? 17:58 EM : Oui. 18:00 PM : Les rencontres étaient assez régulières, ils étaient tous très jeunes bien sûr. Les filles étaient jeunes, les garçons étaient jeunes, nous tâtonnions tous et nous étions tous assez tolérants les uns envers les autres. 18:17 EM : Et comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? 18:23 PM : Notre génération rejetait le mariage et nous pensions que la famille devait changer parce qu'elle ne fonctionnait pas comme avant. Tous mes amis n'étaient pas satisfaits de la façon dont leurs parents vivaient. 18: 45 EM : Le mariage faisait-il partie de vos projets de relations à long terme, pour vous et vos pairs ? 18: 49 PM : Non, pas nécessairement, en fait, beaucoup d'entre nous vivaient en union libre. Les filles l'acceptaient, nous l'acceptions et nous vivions ensemble librement. Comme nous étions censés être libres de toutes les conventions et de toute la détérioration du mariage et de l'engagement, nous faisions des expériences. C'était mal vu par nos aînés et ce n'était pas vraiment accepté, pas comme c'est le cas aujourd'hui. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M, P (Interview) Subject The topic of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the early 1970s, including counterculture movement. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 19 minutes, 19 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Marriage Popular Music University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Price, Rebecca Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Rebecca: Okay, We are recording. All right. So one of the first things that we're talking about is the impact of popular culture. So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles has created a more integrated North American popular culture. So being that uOttawa is a bilingual university, we want to know a bit more about how the Anglophones and the Francophones related together on this. So to get the ball rolling, I'll ask you, um, nowadays, when students have free time, they tend to gravitate towards electronics and social media and such. The seventies didn't have as many electronics. So what, what did you do in your free time? BK: Well, when I was on campus, there was , uh, what’s the building where the cafeteria is that the, you know, the big central building? The library runs off it- Rebecca: Uh, Lamereux? BK: Yeah. And there was a down on the ground floor, like there was kind of a lowered floor with stairs around it. Rebecca: Oh yes! Like kind of a pit in the ground a little bit? BK: Yeah. So we, you know, if you're in between classes, go and grab a coffee and sit there and just strike up conversations. The other was al- just seemed to recall there was always something going on at uh- tables set up with interest groups. I remember the Communist Party having a table and you know, just sort of uh, yeah. So I was more in person gravitating and that was like the university centre, I thought of it that way. Rebecca: I would still say it is for sure. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So your free time was mostly spent with other people, not necessarily by yourself. BK: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: I would say that's very different nowadays, unfortunately. Um, so would you say that that's one of the more popular hangout spots on campus or were there some other spots on or off campus that you remember? BK: Well, you know, it depends. The- I did two degrees at University of Ottawa in the 1970s, so my first degree was Arts and graduated in 76 and the second was in law and the law degree- the law school Fauteux Hall. Once you were in there, like, that was a very different experience. So I would, uh, there’s on the third floor, there's a lounge and free time would be spent in there, we’d be playing bridge, that kind of thing. But it was a lot more, the law school, um, it’s a lot more intense in the sense that you’re- we were 180 students in the first year and we were three groups of um, 60. So I was in Group B and intense friendships with people that were in that group and people were in that year that we, you know, maintain through I mean, it's 50 years later or, less so with people that I was friends with than Arts. So maybe more contacts, but fewer deeper connections. Rebecca: These deeper connections, are they people you crossed paths with professionally after having graduated? BK: Some of them, some of them. And but others just, we’ve just, you know, kept in touch. We spent a lot of time together and it's law school is it's very- it's it's super hard. Rebecca: So you really bonded. BK: So you sort of bond over that. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, did you attend any live events, theater or music or anything during your time there? BK: Um, I don't really recall live event- not theater. I don't think that, but certainly dances. There were dances that were organized. Rebecca: Put on by the school or like the student union? BK: Student Union. I don't know who, but I remember there were dances with, uh, I can remember with foreign students so that foreign students would get to meet, uh, people. But we did a lot like in the seventies. I would say that was a big feature. Like if you wanted to go out, maybe now you go to clubs there and then it was discotheques. So dancing was a big thing. And you know, it was quite a normal thing to get dressed up and go dancing. And there were dances at the university. Rebecca: Wow, that's fabulous. What kind of- what did dressed up mean in the seventies? BK: Uh, well, I think pretty much what it means now. You put on a dress- Rebecca: Yeah, like you had on party attire kind of thing? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Wow. All right, So, again, being that uOttawa is a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated would you say it was between English and French in that were you in the same classes, programs or after school things? BK: I think it was more after school things. So the group that I hung out with when- in undergrad was definitely a very bilingual group. So there were lots of I'd say there is a core of maybe 12 people that I hung out with a lot and the half of them were Francophone and from northern Ontario, I seem to recall, because I know I visited up on Blind River with one after graduation. So and that- we attended our activities where we'd go out, you know, there was a jazz club and that kind of thing. Things down in the market. Um, there was a club called Le Hibou, the Owl, Le Hibou, um, and was that on campus or close to campus? And uh, the- that was definitely a place where there was live music and, you know, different different groups and things like that Rebecca: Did you feel while you were on campus that you were in the middle of a campus or that you were really integrated with downtown? BK: When I came to OttawaU, this’ a roundabout way of answering the question. Um, I had done a year of Cegep in Montreal. I was at Marianopolis College and my dad was in the military, and so he was transferred from the base at Saint Hubert to the National Headquarters, Defence Headquarters, and I could have stayed in Montreal and finished my program at the um, Marianopolis and then I probably would have gone to McGill because it was kind of right across the street. And, you know, that would have been a completely different path. But I was a little bit intimidated about living in Montreal on my own, so I was 17, turning 18. The, cause- Marianopolis didn't have dorms, so I came to Ottawa and I went to the campus at Carleton and I went to the campus at OttawaU. And I thought Carleton was awful. I was just I just yeah, I thought, Oh my gosh, there's nobody here. There's all these tunnels. Like, where are we? It's like, Yeah, cold. I just did not have a good vibe about Carleton and but with OttawaU I just felt, Oh yeah, this place is cool, it's lively. There's lots of people around. There’s English and French. It just sounds. And I said, no, that’s where I want to go. Rebecca: Wow. That is very, very interesting. I see what you mean about the difference between Carleton and uOttawa, for sure. It's definitely a draw. Um, so sort of in a similar vein, going back to the bilingualism were- nowadays what I find when I look across the campus, I would say that most English students are not bilingual, whereas most Francophones are bilingual. Would you say that was the same case back in the seventies? BK: Uh, yes. Pro- probably. But, you know, it was a smaller place and I don't know that the lines were quite as well drawn. So again, I would contrast the arts experience with the law school. The- then I think as now, you could take the same course in either language and you could write in your own language. Rebecca: Okay, right. BK: So you wouldn’t be- so the idea was you wouldn't be docked marks. But I did feel like, Oh, I don't know. Do I really trust that? You know, what if the professor just, you know, I'm writing in English and they might not be, um, they might be prejudiced against me and I might not get as good a grade because I wanted to go to law school so my grades were important to me. But I think that because the crowd that I hung out with was bilingual, I don't know that I noticed that. But I do know that I had classmates that did not get their degree because you had to pass a test in the other language. So it was mandatory. And so there was- everybody had to- whether you were Francophone or Anglophone, you had to prove your bilingualism before you could get your degree. And so maybe that wasn't the case I got at law school. So my experience in law school was like, no, I lost a lot of my French, um, that was all in English. It was very much more siloed that way. The civil law and the common law students did not mingle together. There wasn't a French common law program, that started the year after I graduated. So it's but I think it was that was a really good way of enforcing this is a bilingual campus. And what they did- what you did was you wrote an aptitude- like you did a test and you were streamed. So you had to take a class in your second language and you had to pass it. So when I took the test and I had just come from Montreal and I was bilingual and I just was put in this class and was just like, Oh my God, these people don't know anything. They have no idea. This is nuts. And so I went and complained at the Office of Second Languages and I said, you know, and I was speaking to the lady in French, and she said, but you're bilingual. I said, yeah, but look at the class it put me in. And so she looked at my score on the whatever the placement test, the proficiency test, it was pretty bad. And I said, well, it doesn't reflect my ability, so put me in a better class. And that was- and I remember that class really well, was a really, um, our teacher was from France. It was a small group and you know, so it was good. And you- that was the only requirement in that class passed that class and that was a uh, what I it was an essential to getting their degree, as I recall it. That's how it was. But I know, I know that's how it was. Rebecca: Yeah, wow. I kind of partly wish that that were still the case because I think there's there's quite a divide right now between English and French, and that's really unfortunate. Yeah, we have such an incredible institution, but there is such a separation in a lot of ways. BK: Yeah. And, and maybe my experience would have been different going in as a unilingual anglophone. Rebecca: Mm hmm. That’s true. BK: I might not have been hanging out with the people that I hung out with, so, you know, so my experience might be unique, but. Rebecca: Yeah. So in a similar vein, was there a dating culture between English and French speakers? BK: I don't know that there was a dating culture was the seventies. Rebecca: Okay, okay. BK: We didn't date. Rebecca: You didn't date. BK: I went to clubs and we danced. And out of that, you might meet somebody that you would go out with. But yeah, I don’t know what a dating culture is. Rebecca: Okay, so. But would would French and English people be interested in each other? There wasn't really a a boundary to cross there at all? BK: Well, not in my world. Rebecca: Right. Okay. Yeah. Because you were going into it bilingual around bilingual people- BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So it was just the same. BK: Yeah Rebecca: Okay. Um, so I guess, actually, you've touched on this a little bit. Um, we nowadays use, like, party culture as anything happening outside of the classroom. So how would you describe the, the party culture of the seventies when you were there? BK: Um, oh, I, I mean, apart from the Panda game, I don't think there's anything that's like, what happens now? Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Like house parties or things like that. BK: Well, there'd be house parties for sure, and- but they didn't spill out into the street and cause riots and that kind of stuff. No, there was nothing like it apart from the Panda game. And I think that was pretty much, as I recall, just confined to the Panda game. And and the vicinity. But we would have parties, we would go out, that kind of thing. Rebecca: But was there a sense of rivalry between uOttawa and Carlton at the time? BK: Yes. Yes, Yes. Rebecca: That has that has lasted. Yes. To this day. So taking maybe a bit of a heavier tern. Um, we in our class talk a lot about and hypothesize how students of the seventies felt about the Vietnam War. So how would you describe what the student body thought about the war while you were there? BK: Um, I don't know that the Vietnam War came up a lot in…When they- when I was there. I don't, but I do, um, I'd say in the late sixties was much more of a protest culture and things had- there was a big difference. And as I recall, there's a big difference between what happened in the sixties and what happened in the seventies. And I can remember Professor- one professor saying, no, you know, we were so much more complacent and not activist enough to… Rebecca: Speaking to you as students? BK: As students, yeah, that that you weren’t- that we weren't, you know, we're more self-interested like what kind of jobs we're going to get in that kind of thing. So a lot more establishment than you know- So a professor from the sixties was disappointed in his students in the seventies. The Vietnam War was definitely a feature of my childhood, my dad's military, so, and he had colleagues who fought, who- you know American counterparts who fought in the war. That would be, um, treated terribly when they got back because the war was so unpopular. So that was one aspect. Then there was terrible things, but, you know, it was, um, it was a brutal war and the rightness and wrongness of it is one thing, but it was a brutal war and and it was not, uh, -but I think the protests, race, the Vietnam War, um, I’d say in the seventies, the environmental concerns were definitely that was something I was interested in. And in some respects it's gotten better and in some respects it's gotten worse. Rebecca: Yes. So speaking about the sixties, the sort of rock and roll artists of the time were were promoting various forms of protest. And so do you do you feel for you that rock and roll, when you experienced it in the seventies as a student, was still tied to that sort of against the systems, or was it more just some music you consumed? BK: Music you loved. Rebecca: Okay. Okay. Interesting. Do you feel that your parents generation viewed rock and roll in the seventies the same way, or did it make more of a statement to them? BK: They were mostly just telling me to turn it down. I don't think they had time to think about it. Rebecca: That’s very fair. Yeah, I think I experienced some of that from my parents too. So I guess it goes on and on. Um, so getting a little bit more taboo possibly. So you can answer or not depending on how you feel. But some youth culture voices in the seventies promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent that you know of were drugs available or accessible and campus life? BK: They were very available. Very accessible. And used a lot. Rebecca: Used a lot? Would it be like during classes that people would be on drugs or was it more part of an after school activity? BK: I think would be more of an after school activity. I mean, there may well have been I know for sure there are people with substance abuse issues. Um, that impacted their schooling. And so yeah, there I'm sure there were kids that were stoned in class and, and I’ve had classmates have seen with the shakes when bars not open till 11. So, yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Was there a discussion about danger, about drugs at the time? BK: Uh, yeah. For sure. Rebecca: So there were people who, who had concerns and then some people who not as much or. BK: I don't think we were very different. Rebecca: Okay. Gotcha. BK: Don’t think young people necessarily think about that but in terms of, you know, just say no to drugs, all the. Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. Would- Okay. Yeah. Um, so nowadays a lot of my generation, we think about the seventies, it's, it's sort of a groovy sort of tripping kind of space and time. Um, were psychedelic drugs a part of the, the culture on campus at all? BK: Well, LSD, these are the drugs, LSD, cocaine and marijuana. That was pretty much it. Rebecca: Okay. And when you say it was like accessible on campus, was that through there was like a hook up that people knew about and students or like how how dis it integrate itself- BK: Well there wasn't a cannabis store like there is now. Rebecca: Absolutely. Okay. All right. So that's everything that I've got on on that sort of section. So moving on to our second theme, which is the female experience on campus. So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the second wave of feminism, and that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early seventies sought to break down some gender barriers. Um, does that resonate with your experience at the University of Ottawa? BK: Mm hmm. It does. Rebecca: Yeah. Well, you were a female in law school then. Did you feel isolated in that or…? BK: No, We were a precisely one third of the class, so if we were 180, there were, um, 60 women in the first year. And the- by the end of the third year, we'd lost a few women and a few men, but more, I think perhaps more women than men. So certainly the being, uh, going to law school as a woman was not a standardized route. And the- when I left law school and when I was in practice, I would say I saw that more, um, you know, but there were women in the law groups. There were you know, there was some bonding. But I honestly, I enjoyed dating. So and I don't date women. So that was more it it really was like, hey, this is a lots of single men here. Rebecca: So it's sort of exciting to be sitting amongst the sea of them. BK: Well, yeah, it was fun there. I can say it was there was always… Rebecca: You had your pick of the litter with them then. So did you feel that there were programs or clubs or activities where women were either less present or less welcome? BK: Oh, hockey for sure. Yeah. And that was a barrier. And I think that's one of the things like this idea that, you know, there was a hockey intramural hockey and that would be something that would exclude women. And then there were a few women that played hockey. And it's not so it's not like it is now. Like that, I think was one of the barriers. So that missing out in the locker room talk or the golf talk, that kind of thing. And that's when golf, not when we were students, but later on the, uh, it was I would say it persists even now, my graduation from or my the day I was called to the bar was April 13th, 1981, and there's a group of classmates, all male, that meet every April 13th at the Prest- at the Prescott, where we used to go after the bar and, you know, sometimes I get invited, sometimes I don’t. I'm just like, Guys, come on, it's 50 years on. Let's just start- Rebecca: So still to this day you weren’t invited. Or you are or aren’t. BK: I ah, yeah. I mean, I could always myself remember think, you know, email Henry and say what's what time I'm going to be there. At our 25th anniversary and I was the only woman that showed up and I went to the bathroom and I'm calling classmates. Come on, get down here. Rebecca: Wow. Wow. That almost shocks me quite a bit that that is still something that persists now. BK: I don't think it's and I don't think it's a conscious thing. Rebecca: Of course. Right. BK: It’s not a conscious Not a conscious thing, but yeah, it does. Rebecca: Wow. BK: So so those guys that formed a tight group, right. Hung around still, you know, they went on fishing trips and that kind of stuff. But I personally wouldn't be interested in going fishing, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. But, you know, and maybe there are groups of women. I've been in a book club for 40 years, so that's outside of the but with classmates from law school. And when we graduated thought, well, we need to- And honestly, if a man tried to join us… No no no no… Rebecca: Okay. So you made your own space, as women, to be together. BK: Well yeah. That’s right. And so even though like many of us that went to law school together and some of the husbands may want to sit down and chat, yeah no, and we all know we all went to school together, but this is a woman only space. Rebecca: Yes. Wow. What do you think that that sort of- did you feel that sort of bond with women while you were doing your studies there? And did you rely on each other just being there or were you really doing your thing? BK: I was just doing my own thing. Rebecca: Yeah. Love that. BK: Well, that I put my head down and work. Yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel while you were in the classrooms that as a woman or looking at other women, that they were less likely to raise their hand or be called upon or or things like that? BK: Um, no, I don't think we would tolerate that. But what we did have was at law school in particular, one criminal law professor who was just vile. Yeah. Rebecca: Towards women. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Like in, in his treatment or in his thoughts? BK: Well it was his treatment, his examples, you know, talking about rape and where there's a lot of sexual assault is a huge part of the workload here it’s amazing, it’s discouraging. It's depressing how many cases there are. I've heard someone describe it as, you know, like there's a war against women and children that people just don't even know about. Talk about domestic violence and, you know well you know, women hit men, you know, not what we're seeing. Yeah. Rebecca: Wow, that’s interesting. Did you ever have a moment in your law studies where it was too hard, or was that always just you decided you were going to law school? You would be a lawyer, You would. You'd stick with it. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. What made law school the path? BK: Uh when I was a teenager, I you know, you did- think in Winnipeg we did aptitude test. What do you want to do? So you had to start to choose your courses. You know what stream were you going to go into and those were a bunch of potential careers. I got teaching, social work. And then I thought, well, law would be, um, you’d have more power to really effect change or help people or, you know, resolve difficulties. And I think that's turned out to be true. Rebecca: Yeah. Did it end up being harder than you thought it would be? BK: I was 19 when I got my B.A. and 22 when I got my LLB, so I just put my head down and worked. It was hard for sure. It was hard in undergrad because I did six courses at a time. So we talk about free time. I did not have a lot of it. And yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel like being so head down in your studies you had been missing out on some of the social aspects? BK: Probably. Oh, I knew. Rebecca: That didn't affect you. BK: Well, I'm a pretty sociable person. You probably have gathered that by now. Rebecca: Yes. BK: I mean a large family. So it- uh, and I would go out pretty much every night. So no, I don't think it made a big difference. But I also was was working hard. Yeah. Rebecca: How did you maintain that school life balance? Like were you tired? BK: I suppose. But I was also young. Rebecca: Yes. BK: Yeah. No, I think the the, the around exam times was very, very intense. And usually by the end of an exam period, about the only thing that I could eat without being sick was scrambled eggs. Just yeah. Rebecca: Right. Were you living at home while you were there or? BK: I lived at home when I was doing my undergrad and then my parents- and my first year of law school. And then my parents- dad got transferred to Prince Edward Island, so got an apartment on Cumberland Street. Rebecca: How did that- did that have any effect on the way you experienced university? BK: Oh, for sure. Being on campus was I mean, where I lived on Cumberland Street, we couldn't be any closer than the next year. I moved to Somerset, so it was a bit more of a hike. I suppose it was faster to get to classes and that kind of thing. Rebecca: Did you feel like being on your own and living closer to campus, you felt more integrated in the culture of the university? BK: I don't think it made a difference that way. Rebecca: You were head down working. Okay. So I'm going to move to a bit of a different topic. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning your generation had rebelled against a lot of the values of your parents generation. Do you find that to be true? BK: Well, I think there were you know, certainly if somebody was if people were living together, you know, if a couple decide to live together generally it was the code you could not tell their parents and their parents very rarely knew that they were shacked up. It was a term that we used, and I don't think that's the case anymore. But I think there was. And that- but I think other forms of rebellion, probably more on the sex than anything, drugs maybe be more accessible, I think. But whether it was drugs or my parents generation was alcohol, it was still a substance, mind altering substance. So is it more rebellious to use drugs than to drink? Drinking would have been more in line with them, but either way, you look at it. Yeah. Rebecca: Right. So did- were these topics that kids would have talk to their parents about or was it- BK: I would never in a million years talk to my parents about that. No. Rebecca: Okay. Do you think it was because they were your parents or because of the thoughts that they had had? BK: We just never would have talked to our parents about that. It was just not expected. Like I could call my dad anytime and he would come and pick me up. And would never make a comment about what state I was in. You know, if I was inebriated or whatever. But the- and I just when I was 18, I just stopped using any drugs at all because I just I you know, I could drink and I could be just pretty much the same as I am now, just even more talkative. But drugs does something to you and sort of just like, no, I'm not who I am, so I'm not going to to do that. Rebecca: So your experience was not actually that it aided to reaching a higher level of anything. It was impeding your ability to be you. BK: Me. Yeah. Rebecca: Do you feel like your peers felt the same way about that? BK: Well, never talked about it. Rebecca: Okay, interesting. Um, so to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to to mobilize for a more just society or a change socially or, or was that not really a topic at hand? BK: Well, I you know, I think that there were definitely issues. I mean, abortion and was one, having access to safe abortion was an issue. And I had friends, you know, we went down to the states, come back on a bus from New York, bleeding and in pain and suffering. So I think that there was more agitation over that. Like, I think that was definitely a cause. That was a concern. Rebecca: And so were you or was there demonstrations or protests or was there a culture at the university of speaking about things? BK: I think we spoke about things, but I don't remember protests. Honestly, I don't think that was a feature very much in the seventies. Rebecca: Right. Okay. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so we've talked about this a little bit, but maybe elaborating a little bit more. To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions and values were were outdated? BK: Well, I think maybe like I said, I alluded to it on the, you know, the sexual front relation, that kind of relationship. But I don’t- yeah, I don't know. I guess you could watch TV shows from the seventies like the All in the Family, that didn’t- that wasn't my experience with my family. My mom was politically active and she if you were talking to her and she was born in the thirties, she was more politically active than I was. So she's I've got pictures of her at protests and that kind of thing. So but I didn't have time for that, because I was studying. Rebecca: Do you think if you hadn't been in such an intensive program, it would have shifted the way you looked at social dynamics on the campus? BK: No, no. Rebecca: Um, do you feel like your generation's views on marriage and what it meant to build a family were were changing compared to generations before? BK: Possibly. I mean, I do know that we would have very intense discussions about the role of women and the um- so when I was married and raising my kids, I really felt it was important that my then husband spend equal amount of time, that there is an equitable division that, you know, he could take kids to doctor's appointments as well as I could. And not everybody would feel that way. I see a very different path now. I find that young women are- I find it discouraging. That I hire a woman and and then she comes and she's afraid to say that she's pregnant. And I think well, that's not what we were fighting for. We had terrible maternity benefits. I lost a job from having family, you know, saying you're more devoted to your kids than you are to this work. Well, what are you talking about? My billings are great. All that- you know, that’s just wrong. So, you know, I think that that’s- and my career did not suffer over that. But yeah, I feel like there's more now. My observation is that there's like a going back and that people aren't fighting as hard to have a good career and family. Rebecca: Hm, yeah. So do you have a hope that that pendulum will swing back to the causes that you guys were so invested in? BK: Well, I think it'll swing back when women realize that they're being subjugated again. Rebecca: Because it's happening quieter than it had been before. BK: And with more willing participation. You know, it's great to say, you know, my goal in life is to make a nice house and raise kids and have all the time to drive kids to a soccer game or whatever. It's a whole other thing than when you find yourself alone and without the means to support yourself and your kids. And when your kids leave home, does that mean that you’re, you know, what your- if that's your your only goal. Yeah. So I feel like that's been really important. Well, I know this, it's been important to me to make a contribution, and the work that I do is I can see the impact of that on Canadians. I can see the impact of that, on how the court works. And, and my kids are great. Rebecca: So it worked. BK: So it worked! But it's a lot of work. It’s really hard and you have to be conscious and intentional all the time and you have to think. And you know, there were times when the boys were little, I'd go to bed and just feeling sick to my stomach. I was so tired, you know. And, uh. Rebecca: Do you feel like your partner had felt the same way? BK: Oh, probably not. Rebecca: Right, okay. So it was even as it could be but there was still… BK: Yeah. Rebecca: There’s still roles. There were still roles. But that probably, and I know still exist today. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so was there, and if so, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as the most out of whack that needed fixing? BK: Well, I think it was women's rights and, and my 20 year old self is surprised to hear my 67 year old self saying that. But, you know, like looking back on it. The sexual harassment that we put up with, you know, from professors from I've had, you know, uh, it was creepy and gross. And I think that, you know, hopefully that's better. Rebecca: Yeah, I would hope. I would hope so. I hope so. Do you feel that when you looked around at the men around you that they were seeing the same things that you had been seeing as a woman? BK: Oh, probably not. Yeah, But, you know, I had good friends who were men and, you know, we- but it was instructive- But one of- and this is varying from the seventies but many of the products. So when I was practicing law and I was in a- representing some clients, the men that were, and they were all men, construction workers and the company that they were working for had gone bankrupt. So there's a thing called construction leans and the- it's a whole scheme to make sure that people get paid. So the first people that get paid are the workers. Then, you know, it's between the banks and the the different lenders and people. So this was a construction project, a building project. And so in this settlement and things are you're with a judge and you've got all the lawyers and you have clients and it's big tables, formal thing and just divvying up the assets. And I was pregnant with my second child and looking around the room, I think I am the only woman here and I'm in this day and I just say, you. Then I thought, Wow. And my clients are the only ones getting money. So I think, yes! One of my classmates was in the room and so we met up afterwards, you know, at a social gathering. And he says, yeah, I was looking around the room and I was just thinking, huh, [she’s] the only one, only woman in this room. I wonder if she feels uncomfortable. And I said, I did notice the fact that I was the only woman. So it's so hopefully that's better. And, you know, I'll look at it from 1990 when Chief Justice Dixon retired and I went to this big retirement like ballroom kind of thing at the Chateau Laurier, and it was just a sea of white men, middle aged. And, you know, I think and I wonder if I'll see a difference. Then when Chief Justice McLaughlin retired in 2017 and a similar big ballroom thing, and it was a much more diverse crowd. And so when we talked about that and then you know that the women men thing, I think that was a big thing for me. But then the racial aspect we haven’t talked about that at all. But I would say that was another feature of diversity that yeah. Rebecca: So speaking on that a little bit, when you looked around campus, was there a lot of racial diversity at the time? BK: To a certain extent, but I would say mostly there were a lot of students from Africa, from the Francophone countries Rebecca: Oh okay, right. That makes sense to me. Okay. Did you see any discrimination happening against them or was, were you so doing your thing that it wasn't really part of what you witnessed there. BK: Probably wouldn't have been what I witnessed, and I think it was more like my interactions were mostly at dances. Cause I like dancing, so. Rebecca: Were your dances- this is of my own curiosity. Did- were there like dance moves like? BK: Yeah, you know that the 1970s there was a whole music called disco. Rebecca: Yes. BK: And there were dances, the hustle, the bump. There was all kinds of. Yeah. Rebecca: So you would do the hustle? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Oh, that's amazing. BK: I know. And it was great. And so this is like, if you want to go back to my school and you starting in the sixties in gym class, we would do- learn dances and, in Winnipeg one of the I remember we had to learn the polka and that was like essential for going to socials. You had to know how to polka. So it was actually built into the school curriculums. But every school that I ever went to, you know, once you get to like, I guess grade six or so, grade seven, I guess grade seven, we would have on Fridays once a month, maybe more often sock hops after school and you take off your shoes and you dance, sock hoppy, and then that when you got to high school, there were regular dances. And I can remember Mum, uh, one time was my good friend came over and Mum would sew us into our dresses so our bra straps, wouldn't show. Rebecca: Wow. BK: Or maybe she had other reasons for sewing us into our dresses, but… Rebecca: Excellent point! Oh, my goodness. That's amazing to hear because the dances that I've experienced are mostly people standing in the gym talking to each other. And there isn't a- there is no dancing. BK: Well, and we used to like in high school in Winnipeg, they- I went to because of Dad's career, I lived all over but there was really regimented. Like if you didn't have a dance partner, it didn't matter. You would line up in rows so you'd be dancing opposite somebody. So if you were standing up against the wall, we called them wallflowers, it was because you wanted to. But there was no reason not to be in there and dancing. And it was just, when it was the slow dances. And then of course, you would have to pair up with somebody. But and that could be a bit more awkward if you didn't find anybody but no, definitely it was. And I noticed that from my sons, like they were never, [son’s name] was a little more involved in student culture and in high school, but the dances were kind of few and far between. And and that was really a fun thing because it was just kind of innocuous and innocent and, you know, Yeah. But me and my friends still, like, of one group of friends where you clear out a space and we put on the music and dance. Rebecca: Oh, my goodness. Are you listening to music now or? BK: More Abba. And.. Rebecca: Yes! And who, who were the who were the ones of the time for you? BK: The of the bands that I liked. Well, loved The Who, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, ABBA was always very entertaining. Um, Doobie Brothers. I don't know. There's a lot. Rebecca: Excellent. BK: Yeah. Bee Gees were great. Oh, so you got to start up dancing. Rebecca: I know! I know. BK: And how are you going to do that? Rebecca: How am I going to do that? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: I’ll figure it out. BK: Okay. Rebecca: Figure it out. I'll host a sock hop. So, I’m sad to leave this conversation, but I do have to get back to politics. Did you feel while you were at the university looking at the government, did it feel fair and responsive to the citizens needs? Did you feel heard even if action wasn't necessarily taken? BK: I honestly don't think I've ever gave that much thought, you know. Rebecca: No problem. BK: I mean, there was big constitutional negotiations going on that culminated in the Constitution Act of 18- of 1982. So, you know, definitely. Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Um, I want to hop into sort of another topic that we've touched a little bit. So cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the seventies. Do you agree with that statement? BK: Yes. Rebecca: Okay. Can you elaborate a bit more about what that meant? BK: Well, if you didn't have to worry about being pregnant, that was a liberating effect. And the abortion, though, I mean, I would that might have been later on like it just I don't think that access to abortion was particularly widespread. So it I think I'd say looking back on it now, I think men have taken it- well we talk about men and women relationships. And I know that there are many different forms, but we're just talking that gender normative, heterosexual straight way. I think that's led to women being treated more poorly. Rebecca: Okay. BK: Yeah, I think it started out a little bit more equal. And I my observation now is like, huh. Rebecca: Why do you think that is? BK: I don't know. Why are women letting themselves be taken advantage of? Rebecca: That’s true. That is a big part of it. BK: I kind of think it is. Rebecca: I agree. Yeah. Um.. BK: Because it's hard. Rebecca: Yeah, it's hard to be the one that always has to stay powerful. BK: Yeah. Yeah, right. Rebecca: You can't relax into your being because you have to be a strong one. Have you felt that in your career or was being strong and owning your power just always an easy part of you? BK: Oh, no, I wouldn't say that was always an easy part of me. But, and confidence comes with experience and age. Rebecca: There you go. That's true. BK: I have plenty of it now so. Both, experience and age. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so I want to hop into something you touched on a little bit, but if it's anything that you don't want to answer and you're uncomfortable with, then we'll skip the section. But it's talking a little bit more about sexuality and harassment. If you're comfortable, I'll ask you a couple of questions about that. BK: Sure. Rebecca: Okay. So many universities today have many policies and rules and regulations about sexual harassment. To what extent did you find the university monitored social events or mixture- mixers or campus experience at all, specifically for women? BK: Oh, uh completely nonexistent. As I recall. Rebecca: Did- was that an anger that you had that that there wasn't more monitoring? BK: I had an incident where a professor, uh, came close to raping me and I had nowhere to turn. And I'm pissed off about that. At the time, all we could do was you know I told my girlfriends what happened, and, you know, I had- the only recourse I had was, well, if I had to meet with him I took a girlfriend and we just kind of glare at him and that was it. But I would hope now… Rebecca: In my experience it’s different, Yeah. BK: You’d be able to say, okay- Rebecca: Something happened here. BK: Something happened here. And you know. Rebecca: So, is that something that you still think about? BK: Well, it's obviously, yeah, because I'm bringing it up. But it is. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this, even to do this interview, which is to think, well, maybe that's something that was silenced then and- Rebecca: Doesn’t have to be now. BK: Yeah, yeah. Rebecca: When you- in your- I don't know, professionally. Do you see a lot of those experiences happening now or is that not something that comes across to you at all? BK: Well, in my position, yeah. I mean it was very- I’m senior executive here and so the sexual harassment is definitely a lot less than it was. And I think we have better systems in place to to address anything that- behaviours that are problematic. And it's it's not a big part of what goes on. So. Rebecca: Okay. Um, our generation is very interested in the free love movement. Um, what was the perception of premarital sex at the University of Ottawa in the seventies? BK: Well, lots of people were doing it, so yeah. Rebecca: It was par for the course. It was just what was happening and was it just sort of happening? Was there an encouragement for it as a rebellion or? BK: I don't think people needed much encouragement. Rebecca: So was just it was just freedom. Do you feel like that was different from your parents generation? BK: Probably. But I think that comes back to birth control because I know I did talk to my mom about it and she would just say, Oh, you know, every month everybody would be worried. And if you got pregnant, you'd have to get married, you know, like, yeah, to have a baby out of wedlock, which is like, well, the most awful thing and. Rebecca: Right. Okay. And that was a conversation that you had with your mother. So that was more a topic that you were free to talk about? BK: I was free to talk to my parents about anything, but we just it honestly never would have occurred to talk to them about…Yeah. It just was different. I talk to my kids about more things and just like, Why are you telling me this? I don't want to know. Rebecca: Do you feel like you ever did that with your parents? BK: Told them stuff they didn't want to know? No, because they would just keep it to myself! Rebecca: Right. And you don't feel like that’s happening now. BK: No. Yeah.Why are you asking me to help edit this essay? I've already been to school. Rebecca and BK: I don't need to do it again. Rebecca: Very true. That’s what I tell my sister when she wants me to give her help. Anyway, um. Yeah. So I guess this kind of talked about this a little bit, but do you feel like your parents generation worried about you guys having premarital or do they maybe not have known that it was happening? BK: Or they weren't that clued out. No, no, I think yeah. No, I don't know. Rebecca: All right. BK: Don’t think it was an issue. Rebecca: That has all the questions that I have. BK: Awesome. Rebecca: Do you have anything else that you want to mention while you have the microphone? BK: While I have the mic, you know, it was two very different experiences on the campus and in the seventies and two different programs. And, uh, but I still think that that initial instinct I had to go to OttawaU was the right one. Yeah. Rebecca: Awesome. Transcription Translation Rebecca : D'accord, nous enregistrons. Nous sommes en train d'enregistrer. L'une des premières choses dont nous parlons est l'impact de la culture populaire. Les historiens de la culture soutiennent que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une université bilingue, nous voulons en savoir un peu plus sur la façon dont les francophones et les anglophones ont collaboré dans ce domaine. De nos jours, lorsque les étudiants ont du temps libre, ils ont tendance à se tourner vers l'électronique, les médias sociaux, etc. Dans les années 70, il n'y avait pas autant d'électronique. Alors, que faisiez-vous pendant votre temps libre ? BK : Eh bien, quand j'étais sur le campus, il y avait, euh, quel est le bâtiment où se trouve la cafétéria qui est, vous savez, le grand bâtiment central ? La bibliothèque en dépend... Rebecca : Euh, Lamereux ? BK : Oui. Et il y avait une descente au rez-de-chaussée, une sorte de plancher abaissé avec des escaliers autour. Rebecca : Oh oui ! Comme une sorte de fosse dans le sol, un peu ? BK : Oui. Alors nous, vous savez, si vous êtes entre deux cours, allez prendre un café et asseyez-vous là et engagez la conversation. L'autre chose, c'est que je me souviens qu'il y avait toujours quelque chose qui se passait à des tables organisées par des groupes d'intérêt. Je me souviens que le Parti communiste avait une table et vous savez, juste une sorte de euh, ouais. Je gravitais donc davantage en personne et c'était comme le centre universitaire, c'est ainsi que je voyais les choses. Rebecca : Je dirais encore que c'est le cas. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Vous passiez donc votre temps libre avec d'autres personnes, pas nécessairement seul. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Je dirais que c'est très différent de nos jours, malheureusement. Euh, diriez-vous que c'est l'un des endroits les plus populaires sur le campus ou y a-t-il d'autres endroits sur le campus ou en dehors dont vous vous souvenez ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, cela dépend. J'ai obtenu deux diplômes à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70, donc mon premier diplôme était en arts et j'ai obtenu mon diplôme en 76 et le second était en droit et le diplôme de droit - la faculté de droit Fauteux Hall. Une fois que vous y étiez, c'était une expérience très différente. Au troisième étage, il y a un salon et on y passait son temps libre, on jouait au bridge, ce genre de choses. Mais c'était beaucoup plus, l'école de droit, euh, c'est beaucoup plus intense dans le sens où nous étions 180 étudiants en première année et nous étions trois groupes de euh, 60. J'étais donc dans le groupe B et j'ai noué des amitiés intenses avec des gens qui étaient dans ce groupe et des gens qui étaient dans cette année-là et que nous entretenons, vous savez, 50 ans plus tard, moins avec les gens avec qui j'étais ami qu'avec ceux des Arts. Il y a donc peut-être plus de contacts, mais moins de liens profonds. Rebecca : Ces liens plus profonds sont-ils le fait de personnes que vous avez rencontrées professionnellement après avoir obtenu votre diplôme ? BK : Certains d'entre eux, certains d'entre eux. Et d'autres, nous avons juste, vous savez, gardé le contact. Nous avons passé beaucoup de temps ensemble et l'école de droit, c'est très... c'est très dur. Rebecca : Vous vous êtes donc vraiment rapprochés. BK : C'est ainsi que vous vous rapprochez. C'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous assisté à des spectacles, à des pièces de théâtre, à des concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre pendant votre séjour ? BK : Euh, je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'événements en direct - pas de théâtre. Je ne pense pas, mais certainement des danses. Il y avait des danses organisées. Rebecca : Organisé par l'école ou par l'association des étudiants ? BK : L'association des étudiants. Je ne sais pas qui, mais je me souviens qu'il y avait des danses avec, euh, je me souviens avec des étudiants étrangers pour que les étudiants étrangers puissent rencontrer, euh, des gens. Mais nous avons fait beaucoup de choses comme dans les années soixante-dix. Je dirais que c'était une caractéristique importante. Si vous vouliez sortir, vous alliez peut-être maintenant dans des clubs, mais à l'époque, c'était des discothèques. La danse était donc très présente. Et vous savez, il était tout à fait normal de s'habiller et d'aller danser. Il y avait des soirées dansantes à l'université. Rebecca : Wow, c'est fabuleux. Quel genre de... que signifiait être habillé dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, eh bien, je pense que c'est à peu près ce que cela signifie aujourd'hui. Vous mettez une robe... Rebecca : Oui, comme si vous aviez une tenue de soirée ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Wow. D'accord. Donc, comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une institution bilingue, à quel point diriez-vous qu'il y a eu intégration linguistique entre l'anglais et le français, c'est-à-dire que vous étiez dans les mêmes classes, les mêmes programmes ou les mêmes activités parascolaires ? BK : Je pense que c'était plus après l'école. Le groupe avec lequel je traînais quand j'étais étudiant était vraiment un groupe très bilingue. Je dirais qu'il y avait un noyau de 12 personnes avec lesquelles je traînais beaucoup et la moitié d'entre elles étaient francophones et du nord de l'Ontario, si je me souviens bien, parce que je sais que j'ai visité Blind River avec l'une d'entre elles après l'obtention de mon diplôme. Nous participions à nos activités et nous sortions, vous savez, il y avait un club de jazz et ce genre de choses. Il y avait des choses au marché. Il y avait un club qui s'appelait Le Hibou, le Owl, Le Hibou, et c'était sur le campus ou près du campus ? Et euh, le... c'était vraiment un endroit où il y avait de la musique live et, vous savez, différents groupes et des choses comme ça Rebecca : Lorsque vous étiez sur le campus, aviez-vous l'impression d'être au milieu d'un campus ou d'être vraiment intégré au centre-ville ? BK : Quand je suis arrivé à l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est une façon détournée de répondre à la question. J'avais fait une année de cégep à Montréal. J'étais au collège Marianopolis et mon père était dans l'armée, il a donc été transféré de la base de Saint-Hubert au quartier général national, au quartier général de la Défense, et j'aurais pu rester à Montréal et terminer mon programme à Marianopolis et ensuite je serais probablement allé à McGill parce que c'était juste de l'autre côté de la rue. Et, vous savez, cela aurait été un chemin complètement différent. Mais j'étais un peu intimidée à l'idée de vivre seule à Montréal, alors j'avais 17 ans et j'allais avoir 18 ans. Marianopolis n'avait pas de dortoirs, alors je suis venu à Ottawa et je suis allé sur le campus de Carleton et sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa. Et j'ai trouvé que Carleton était horrible. Je me disais : " Oh mon Dieu, il n'y a personne ici. Il y a tous ces tunnels. Où sommes-nous ? C'est comme, ouais, c'est froid. Je n'avais pas une bonne impression de Carleton, mais à l'Université d'Ottawa, je me suis dit : " Oh oui, cet endroit est cool, c'est vivant. Il y a beaucoup de monde. Il y a de l'anglais et du français. Ça sonne juste. Et je me suis dit, non, c'est là que je veux aller. Rebecca : Wow. C'est très, très intéressant. Je vois ce que vous voulez dire au sujet de la différence entre Carleton et l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est certain. C'est définitivement une attraction. Euh, dans le même ordre d'idées, pour revenir au bilinguisme, je dirais que la plupart des étudiants anglophones ne sont pas bilingues, alors que la plupart des francophones sont bilingues. Diriez-vous que c'était la même chose dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, oui. Probablement. Mais, vous savez, c'était un endroit plus petit et je ne sais pas si les lignes étaient aussi bien tracées. Encore une fois, je comparerais l'expérience artistique à celle de l'école de droit. Je pense qu'à l'époque comme aujourd'hui, vous pouviez suivre le même cours dans l'une ou l'autre langue et vous pouviez écrire dans votre propre langue. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Donc vous ne seriez pas... donc l'idée était que vous ne seriez pas pénalisé. Mais je me sentais comme, Oh, je ne sais pas. Est-ce que j'ai vraiment confiance ? Et si le professeur se contentait de dire que j'écris en anglais et qu'il n'a peut-être pas de préjugés à mon égard et que je n'obtiendrais peut-être pas une aussi bonne note parce que je voulais aller à l'école de droit et que mes notes étaient donc importantes pour moi. Mais je pense qu'étant donné que les gens avec qui je traînais étaient bilingues, je ne sais pas si je l'ai remarqué. Mais je sais que certains de mes camarades de classe n'ont pas obtenu leur diplôme parce qu'il fallait passer un examen dans l'autre langue. C'était donc obligatoire. Et donc il y avait... tout le monde devait... que vous soyez francophone ou anglophone, vous deviez prouver votre bilinguisme avant d'obtenir votre diplôme. Ce n'est peut-être pas ce qui s'est passé à la faculté de droit. Mon expérience à la faculté de droit a été la suivante : non, j'ai perdu une grande partie de mon français, tout était en anglais. C'était beaucoup plus cloisonné. Les étudiants en droit civil et en common law ne se mélangeaient pas. Il n'y avait pas de programme de common law en français, qui a commencé l'année après que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme. C'est donc, mais je pense que c'était une très bonne façon de faire respecter le fait que nous sommes un campus bilingue. Et ce qu'ils ont fait - ce que vous avez fait, c'est que vous avez passé un test d'aptitude - comme vous avez passé un test et vous avez été orienté. Vous deviez donc suivre un cours dans votre deuxième langue et vous deviez le réussir. Quand j'ai passé le test, je venais d'arriver de Montréal, j'étais bilingue et on m'a mis dans cette classe et je me suis dit : " Oh mon Dieu, ces gens ne savent rien. Ils n'ont aucune idée. C'est de la folie. Je suis donc allée me plaindre au Bureau des langues secondes et j'ai dit, vous savez, et je parlais à la dame en français, et elle m'a dit, mais vous êtes bilingue. J'ai dit, oui, mais regardez la classe dans laquelle on m'a mis. Et elle a regardé mon score au test de placement, le test de compétence, il était assez mauvais. Et j'ai dit, eh bien, cela ne reflète pas mes capacités, alors mettez-moi dans une meilleure classe. Et c'était... et je me souviens très bien de cette classe, c'était vraiment... notre professeur venait de France. C'était un petit groupe et vous savez, c'était bien. Et vous- c'était la seule exigence dans cette classe, on passait cette classe et c'était un euh, ce que je c'était un essentiel pour obtenir leur diplôme, si je me souviens bien. C'était comme ça. Mais je sais, je sais que c'était comme ça. Rebecca : Oui, wow. J'aimerais que ce soit encore le cas, parce que je pense qu'il y a un fossé entre l'anglais et le français, et c'est vraiment malheureux. Oui, nous avons une institution tellement incroyable, mais il y a une telle séparation à bien des égards. BK : Oui. Et, et peut-être que mon expérience aurait été différente en tant qu'anglophone unilingue. Rebecca : Mm hmm. C'est vrai. BK : Je n'aurais peut-être pas traîné avec les gens avec lesquels je traînais, donc, vous savez, mon expérience est peut-être unique, mais... Rebecca : Oui. Dans le même ordre d'idées, y avait-il une culture des rencontres entre les anglophones et les francophones ? BK : Je ne sais pas s'il y avait une culture des rencontres dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : D'accord, d'accord. BK : Nous ne sommes pas sortis ensemble. Rebecca : Tu n'es pas sorti avec quelqu'un. BK : J'allais dans des clubs et nous dansions. Et à partir de là, vous pouviez rencontrer quelqu'un avec qui vous sortiez. Mais oui, je ne sais pas ce qu'est une culture de la rencontre. Rebecca : D'accord. Mais est-ce que les Français et les Anglais s'intéresseraient l'un à l'autre ? Il n'y avait pas vraiment de frontière à franchir ? BK : Pas dans mon monde. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. Parce que vous avez commencé en étant bilingue et en côtoyant des gens bilingues... BK : Oui. Rebecca : C'était donc la même chose. BK : Oui Rebecca : D'accord. Hum, donc je suppose qu'en fait, vous avez un peu abordé ce sujet. Aujourd'hui, nous utilisons l'expression " culture de la fête " pour désigner tout ce qui se passe en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête dans les années soixante-dix quand vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, oh, je, je veux dire, à part le jeu Panda, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait quoi que ce soit qui soit comme, qu'est-ce qui se passe maintenant ? Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Comme des fêtes à la maison ou des choses comme ça. BK : Eh bien, il y avait des fêtes à la maison, c'est sûr, et... mais elles ne débordaient pas dans la rue et ne provoquaient pas d'émeutes et ce genre de choses. Non, il n'y avait rien de tel à part le jeu du Panda. Et je pense que c'était plutôt, si je me souviens bien, limité au jeu du Panda. Et dans les environs. Mais nous organisions des fêtes, nous sortions, ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Mais y avait-il un sentiment de rivalité entre l'Université d'Ottawa et Carlton à l'époque ? BK : Oui. Oui, oui. Rebecca : Cela a duré. Oui. Jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Donc, en prenant peut-être un ton un peu plus lourd, nous parlons beaucoup dans notre classe de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Viêt Nam. Dans notre classe, nous parlons beaucoup de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Vietnam et nous émettons des hypothèses à ce sujet. Comment décririez-vous ce que les étudiants pensaient de la guerre lorsque vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, je ne sais pas si la guerre du Vietnam a beaucoup été évoquée... Quand ils... quand j'étais là. Je ne sais pas, mais je dirais qu'à la fin des années soixante, il y avait beaucoup plus de culture de protestation et les choses avaient - il y avait une grande différence. Et si je me souviens bien, il y a une grande différence entre ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante et ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante-dix. Et je me souviens d'un professeur qui disait, non, vous savez, nous étions tellement plus complaisants et pas assez activistes pour... Rebecca : Vous parler en tant qu'étudiants ? BK : En tant qu'étudiants, oui, que vous n'étiez pas - que nous n'étions pas, vous savez, nous sommes plus intéressés par le type d'emploi que nous allons obtenir dans ce genre de choses. Un professeur des années soixante a été déçu par ses étudiants des années soixante-dix. La guerre du Viêt Nam a définitivement marqué mon enfance, l'armée de mon père, et il avait des collègues qui avaient combattu, qui... vous savez, des homologues américains qui avaient combattu pendant la guerre. Ils étaient, euh, terriblement traités à leur retour parce que la guerre était si impopulaire. C'était donc un aspect. Il y a eu des choses terribles, mais, vous savez, c'était une guerre brutale et le bien ou le mal de cette guerre est une chose, mais c'était une guerre brutale et ce n'était pas, euh, -mais je pense que les protestations, la race, la guerre du Vietnam, euh, je dirais dans les années soixante-dix, les préoccupations environnementales étaient vraiment quelque chose qui m'intéressait. Et à certains égards, la situation s'est améliorée et à d'autres, elle a empiré. Rebecca : Oui. En parlant des années 60, les artistes de rock and roll de l'époque encourageaient diverses formes de protestation. Avez-vous l'impression que le rock and roll, tel que vous l'avez connu dans les années 70 en tant qu'étudiante, était toujours lié à cette sorte de lutte contre le système, ou était-ce plutôt de la musique que vous consommiez ? BK : La musique que vous aimiez. Rebecca : D'accord. D'accord. C'est intéressant. Avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents considérait le rock and roll des années 70 de la même façon, ou est-ce que cela les touchait davantage ? BK : La plupart du temps, ils me disaient simplement de refuser. Je ne pense pas qu'ils aient eu le temps d'y réfléchir. Rebecca : C'est très juste. Oui, je pense que mes parents m'ont aussi fait subir cela. Je suppose que c'est une longue histoire. Euh, ça devient un peu plus tabou peut-être. Vous pouvez donc répondre ou non en fonction de ce que vous ressentez. Mais certaines voix de la culture des jeunes dans les années soixante-dix encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. À votre connaissance, dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou accessibles sur les campus ? BK : Ils étaient très disponibles. Très accessibles. Et très utilisés. Rebecca : Beaucoup ? Est-ce que c'était pendant les cours que les gens se droguaient ou est-ce que ça faisait plutôt partie des activités après l'école ? BK : Je pense qu'il s'agirait plutôt d'une activité extrascolaire. Je veux dire qu'il y a peut-être eu, je le sais, des gens qui ont des problèmes de toxicomanie. Hum, cela a eu un impact sur leur scolarité. Et donc oui, je suis sûr qu'il y avait des enfants qui étaient défoncés en classe et, et j'ai eu des camarades de classe qui ont vu les secousses quand les bars n'ouvraient pas jusqu'à 11 heures. Donc, oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Y a-t-il eu une discussion sur le danger, sur les drogues à l'époque ? BK : Euh, oui. C'est certain. Rebecca : Il y avait donc des gens qui avaient des inquiétudes et d'autres qui n'en avaient pas autant ou qui n'en avaient pas du tout. BK : Je ne pense pas que nous étions très différents. Rebecca : D'accord. J'ai compris. BK : Je ne pense pas que les jeunes y pensent nécessairement, mais en termes de, vous savez, dites simplement non aux drogues, tout le... Oui. Rebecca : Oui. D'accord. Oui. Aujourd'hui, beaucoup de gens de ma génération pensent aux années 70, c'est une sorte d'espace-temps groovy et tripant. Les drogues psychédéliques faisaient-elles partie de la culture du campus ? BK : Eh bien, le LSD, voici les drogues, le LSD, la cocaïne et la marijuana. C'est à peu près tout. Rebecca : D'accord. Et quand vous dites que c'était accessible sur le campus, est-ce que c'était par le biais d'un lien que les gens connaissaient et que les étudiants connaissaient, ou comment est-ce que ça s'est intégré... ? BK : Il n'y avait pas de magasin de cannabis comme aujourd'hui. Rebecca : Absolument. D'accord. D'accord. Voilà donc tout ce que j'avais à dire sur cette partie. Passons maintenant à notre deuxième thème, qui est l'expérience féminine sur le campus. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la deuxième vague du féminisme et sur le fait que, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années soixante-dix ont cherché à briser certaines barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que cela correspond à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? BK : Mm hmm. C'est le cas. Rebecca : Oui. Vous étiez une femme à la faculté de droit. Vous êtes-vous sentie isolée ou... ? BK : Non, nous représentions précisément un tiers de la classe, donc si nous étions 180, il y avait, euh, 60 femmes la première année. Et à la fin de la troisième année, nous avions perdu quelques femmes et quelques hommes, mais plus, je pense, peut-être plus de femmes que d'hommes. Il est donc certain que le fait d'être, euh, d'aller à l'école de droit en tant que femme n'était pas un parcours standardisé. Et quand j'ai quitté l'école de droit et que j'ai exercé, je dirais que j'ai vu plus de, euh, vous savez, mais il y avait des femmes dans les groupes de droit. Il y avait des liens entre elles. Mais honnêtement, j'aimais sortir avec des femmes. Je ne sors pas avec des femmes. Donc c'était plus comme ça, c'était vraiment comme, hey, il y a beaucoup d'hommes célibataires ici. Rebecca : C'est donc un peu excitant d'être assis au milieu de cette mer. BK : Eh bien, oui, c'était amusant là-bas. Je peux dire qu'il y avait toujours... Rebecca : Vous avez donc eu l'embarras du choix. Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'il y avait des programmes, des clubs ou des activités où les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins bien accueillies ? BK : Oh, le hockey bien sûr. Oui, c'est vrai. Et c'était un obstacle. Et je pense que c'est l'une des choses comme cette idée que, vous savez, il y avait un hockey intra-muros et que c'était quelque chose qui excluait les femmes. Et puis, il y avait quelques femmes qui jouaient au hockey. Et ce n'est pas comme aujourd'hui. Je pense que c'était l'un des obstacles. Cela n'a pas été pris en compte dans les discussions sur les vestiaires ou sur le golf, ce genre de choses. Et c'est là que le golf, pas quand nous étions étudiants, mais plus tard, c'était, je dirais que ça persiste encore aujourd'hui, mon diplôme ou le jour où j'ai été appelé au barreau était le 13 avril 1981, et il y a un groupe de camarades de classe, tous des hommes, qui se réunissent tous les 13 avril au Prest- au Prescott, où nous avions l'habitude d'aller après le bar et, vous savez, parfois je suis invité, parfois non. Je me dis : "Les gars, allez, ça fait 50 ans. Commençons... Rebecca : Aujourd'hui encore, vous n'avez pas été invité. Ou vous l'êtes ou vous ne l'êtes pas. BK : Ah, oui. Je veux dire, je pouvais toujours me rappeler, vous savez, envoyer un courriel à Henry et lui dire à quelle heure je serai là. Lors de notre 25e anniversaire, j'étais la seule femme à être venue, je suis allée aux toilettes et j'ai appelé mes camarades de classe. Allez, venez ici. Rebecca : Wow. Ouah ! Je suis presque choquée de voir que cela persiste encore aujourd'hui. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit le cas et je ne pense pas que ce soit une chose consciente. Rebecca : Bien sûr. C'est vrai. BK : Ce n'est pas une chose consciente, mais oui. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ces gars-là formaient un groupe soudé, c'est vrai. Ils traînaient encore, vous savez, ils partaient en voyage de pêche et ce genre de choses. Mais personnellement, je n'aurais pas envie d'aller pêcher, alors ce n'est peut-être pas une si mauvaise chose. Mais, vous savez, il y a peut-être des groupes de femmes. Je fais partie d'un club de lecture depuis 40 ans, en dehors de mes camarades de classe de l'école de droit. Et quand nous avons obtenu notre diplôme, nous nous sommes dit qu'il fallait... Et honnêtement, si un homme essayait de se joindre à nous... Non, non, non, non... Rebecca : Vous avez donc créé votre propre espace, en tant que femmes, pour être ensemble. BK : Eh bien, oui. C'est vrai. Et même si beaucoup d'entre nous ont fait leurs études de droit ensemble et que certains maris veulent s'asseoir et discuter, oui non, et nous savons toutes que nous avons fait nos études ensemble, mais c'est un espace réservé aux femmes. Rebecca : Oui. Wow. Que pensez-vous de cette sorte de - avez-vous ressenti cette sorte de lien avec les femmes pendant que vous faisiez vos études là-bas ? Et est-ce que vous comptiez sur la présence de l'autre ou est-ce que vous faisiez vraiment votre travail ? BK : Je faisais ce que je voulais. Rebecca : Oui. J'adore ça. BK : Eh bien, que je me mette au travail. C'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression, lorsque vous étiez dans les salles de classe, qu'en tant que femme ou en regardant d'autres femmes, elles étaient moins susceptibles de lever la main ou d'être sollicitées, ou des choses comme ça ? BK : Euh, non, je ne pense pas que nous tolérerions cela. Mais nous avons eu, à la faculté de droit en particulier, un professeur de droit pénal qui était tout simplement ignoble. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vers les femmes. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Comme dans, dans son traitement ou dans ses pensées ? BK : C'était son traitement, ses exemples, vous savez, parler du viol et du fait que les agressions sexuelles représentent une grande partie de la charge de travail ici, c'est étonnant, c'est décourageant. Le nombre de cas est déprimant. J'ai entendu quelqu'un dire qu'il s'agissait d'une guerre contre les femmes et les enfants dont les gens ne sont même pas conscients. Parler de violence domestique et, vous savez bien, vous savez, les femmes frappent les hommes, vous savez, ce n'est pas ce que nous voyons. Ce n'est pas ce que l'on voit. Rebecca : C'est intéressant. Avez-vous eu un moment dans vos études de droit où c'était trop dur, ou est-ce que vous avez toujours décidé que vous alliez faire du droit ? Vous deviendriez avocat, vous le feriez. Vous vous y tiendriez. BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Qu'est-ce qui a fait que l'école de droit a été la voie à suivre ? BK : Euh, quand j'étais adolescent, vous savez, on faisait - je crois qu'à Winnipeg, on faisait des tests d'aptitude. Que voulez-vous faire ? Il fallait donc commencer à choisir ses cours. Vous saviez dans quelle filière vous alliez vous orienter et il y avait un tas de carrières potentielles. J'ai choisi l'enseignement, le travail social. Et puis j'ai pensé que le droit serait, euh, que vous auriez plus de pouvoir pour vraiment changer les choses ou aider les gens ou, vous savez, résoudre les difficultés. Et je pense que cela s'est avéré vrai. Rebecca : Oui. Est-ce que cela a été plus difficile que vous ne le pensiez ? BK : J'avais 19 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence et 22 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence en droit. C'était difficile, c'est certain. C'était difficile à l'université parce que je suivais six cours à la fois. Nous parlons donc de temps libre. Je n'en avais pas beaucoup. Et oui. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'en étant si absorbée par vos études, vous aviez manqué certains aspects sociaux ? BK : Probablement. Oh, je le savais. Rebecca : Cela ne vous a pas affecté. BK : Eh bien, je suis quelqu'un d'assez sociable. Vous l'avez probablement compris maintenant. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Je veux dire une famille nombreuse. Et je sortais pratiquement tous les soirs. Alors non, je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une grande différence. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Rebecca : Comment avez-vous réussi à maintenir l'équilibre entre l'école et la vie privée ? Etiez-vous fatiguée ? BK : Je suppose. Mais j'étais aussi jeune. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Oui. Non, je pense que les périodes d'examens étaient très, très intenses. En général, à la fin d'une période d'examen, la seule chose que je pouvais manger sans être malade, c'était des œufs brouillés. C'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Est-ce que vous viviez à la maison pendant que vous étiez là-bas ? BK : J'ai vécu à la maison pendant mes études de premier cycle, puis mes parents... et ma première année d'études de droit. Et puis mes parents - mon père a été muté à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard, alors j'ai pris un appartement sur Cumberland Street. Rebecca : Comment cela a-t-il eu un effet sur la façon dont vous avez vécu l'université ? BK : Oh, bien sûr. Lorsque j'habitais sur Cumberland Street, nous ne pouvions pas être plus près que l'année suivante. J'ai déménagé à Somerset, alors c'était un peu plus loin. Je suppose que c'était plus rapide pour se rendre aux cours et ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression que le fait d'être seule et de vivre plus près du campus vous a permis de mieux vous intégrer à la culture de l'université ? BK : Je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une différence. Rebecca : Vous étiez au travail, tête baissée. Je vais donc passer à un sujet un peu différent. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre beaucoup de valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Trouvez-vous que c'est vrai ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il y avait, vous savez, certainement si quelqu'un vivait ensemble, vous savez, si un couple décidait de vivre ensemble, généralement c'était le code que vous ne pouviez pas dire à leurs parents et leurs parents savaient très rarement qu'ils étaient en concubinage. C'était un terme que nous utilisions, et je ne pense pas que ce soit encore le cas aujourd'hui. Mais je pense que c'était le cas. Et cela - mais je pense que d'autres formes de rébellion, probablement plus sur le plan sexuel qu'autre chose, les drogues sont peut-être plus accessibles, je pense. Mais qu'il s'agisse de drogues ou de l'alcool de la génération de mes parents, il s'agissait toujours d'une substance, d'une substance altérant l'esprit. Est-il donc plus rebelle de se droguer que de boire ? Boire aurait été plus en accord avec eux, mais d'une manière ou d'une autre, il faut voir les choses comme ça. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Alors est-ce que... est-ce que c'était des sujets dont les enfants devaient parler à leurs parents ou est-ce que c'était... BK : Je n'aurais jamais parlé de cela à mes parents. Non. Rebecca : D'accord. Pensez-vous que c'était parce qu'ils étaient vos parents ou à cause des pensées qu'ils avaient eues ? BK : Nous n'aurions jamais parlé de cela à nos parents. On ne s'y attendait pas. Je pouvais appeler mon père n'importe quand et il venait me chercher. Et il n'aurait jamais fait de commentaire sur l'état dans lequel je me trouvais. Vous savez, si j'étais en état d'ébriété ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Mais quand j'ai eu 18 ans, j'ai arrêté de prendre de la drogue parce que je pouvais boire et être à peu près la même que maintenant, même si j'étais plus bavarde. Mais les drogues ont un effet sur vous et vous vous dites : non, je ne suis pas qui je suis, alors je ne vais pas faire ça. Rebecca : Votre expérience n'était donc pas qu'elle vous aidait à atteindre un niveau plus élevé de quelque chose. Il vous empêchait d'être vous-même. BK : Moi. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que vos pairs ressentaient la même chose à ce sujet ? BK : Eh bien, je n'en ai jamais parlé. Rebecca : D'accord, c'est intéressant. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste ou pour un changement social, ou bien n'était-ce pas vraiment un sujet à l'ordre du jour ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, je pense qu'il y avait vraiment des problèmes. Je veux dire, l'avortement était un problème, l'accès à un avortement sûr était un problème. Et j'avais des amis, vous savez, nous sommes allés aux États-Unis, nous sommes revenus en bus de New York, en sang, dans la douleur et la souffrance. Je pense donc qu'il y avait plus d'agitation à ce sujet. Je pense que c'était vraiment une cause. C'était une préoccupation. Rebecca : Et donc, y avait-il des manifestations ou des protestations, ou y avait-il une culture à l'université qui consistait à parler de choses et d'autres ? BK : Je pense que nous avons parlé de certaines choses, mais je ne me souviens pas des manifestations. Honnêtement, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu beaucoup de manifestations dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Hum, nous en avons déjà parlé un peu, mais nous pourrions peut-être élaborer un peu plus. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions et les valeurs de vos parents étaient dépassées ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'y ai peut-être fait allusion en ce qui concerne, vous savez, la relation sexuelle, ce genre de relation. Mais je ne sais pas... oui, je ne sais pas. Je suppose que l'on peut regarder des émissions télévisées des années 70 comme All in the Family, mais ce n'est pas... ce n'est pas l'expérience que j'ai eue avec ma famille. Ma mère était politiquement active et si vous lui parliez, elle était née dans les années 30, elle était plus politiquement active que moi. J'ai des photos d'elle à des manifestations et ce genre de choses. Mais je n'avais pas le temps pour ça, parce que j'étudiais. Rebecca : Pensez-vous que si vous n'aviez pas participé à un programme aussi intensif, cela aurait changé votre façon de voir la dynamique sociale sur le campus ? BK : Non, non. Rebecca : Euh, avez-vous l'impression que les opinions de votre génération sur le mariage et sur ce que signifie construire une famille ont changé par rapport aux générations précédentes ? BK : Peut-être. Lorsque j'étais mariée et que j'élevais mes enfants, j'estimais qu'il était important que mon mari passe autant de temps que moi, qu'il puisse emmener les enfants chez le médecin aussi bien que moi. Ce n'est pas le cas de tout le monde. J'observe aujourd'hui une évolution très différente. Je trouve que les jeunes femmes sont... Je trouve cela décourageant. J'embauche une femme, puis elle vient et a peur de dire qu'elle est enceinte. Et je me dis que ce n'est pas pour cela que nous nous sommes battues. Nous avions de très mauvaises allocations de maternité. J'ai perdu un emploi parce que ma famille m'a dit que j'étais plus dévouée à mes enfants qu'à mon travail. De quoi parlez-vous ? Mes factures sont excellentes. Tout cela... vous savez, c'est tout simplement faux. Donc, vous savez, je pense que c'est... et ma carrière n'en a pas souffert. Mais oui, j'ai l'impression qu'il y a plus de choses maintenant. J'ai l'impression qu'il y a un retour en arrière et que les gens ne se battent plus autant pour avoir une bonne carrière et une bonne famille. Rebecca : Oui. Avez-vous l'espoir que le pendule revienne vers les causes pour lesquelles vous vous êtes tant investis ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il reviendra lorsque les femmes se rendront compte qu'elles sont à nouveau soumises. Rebecca : Parce que les choses se passent plus calmement qu'auparavant. BK : Et avec une participation plus volontaire. Vous savez, c'est bien de dire, vous savez, mon but dans la vie est de construire une belle maison, d'élever des enfants et d'avoir tout le temps de conduire les enfants à un match de football ou autre. C'est tout autre chose que de se retrouver seul et sans les moyens de subvenir à ses besoins et à ceux de ses enfants. Et quand vos enfants quittent la maison, cela signifie-t-il que vous êtes, vous savez, ce que vous... si c'est votre seul objectif. Oui, c'est vrai. J'ai l'impression que c'est très important. Je sais qu'il a été important pour moi d'apporter une contribution, et le travail que je fais, je peux en voir l'impact sur les Canadiens. Je peux en voir l'impact sur le fonctionnement du tribunal. Et mes enfants sont formidables. Rebecca : Cela a donc fonctionné. BK : Cela a donc fonctionné ! Mais c'est beaucoup de travail. C'est vraiment difficile et il faut être conscient et intentionnel tout le temps, et il faut réfléchir. Et vous savez, il y a eu des moments où, lorsque les garçons étaient petits, j'allais me coucher et je me sentais mal à l'estomac. J'étais tellement fatiguée. Et, euh. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que votre partenaire a ressenti la même chose ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Rebecca : Oui, d'accord. C'était donc aussi équilibré que possible, mais il y avait encore... BK : Oui. Rebecca : Il y a encore des rôles. Il y avait encore des rôles. Mais cela existe probablement, et je sais que cela existe encore aujourd'hui. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Euh, y avait-il, et si oui, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait-on comme le plus détraqué et qui avait besoin d'être corrigé ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que c'était les droits des femmes et, et mon moi de 20 ans est surpris d'entendre mon moi de 67 ans dire cela. Mais, vous savez, en y repensant, le harcèlement sexuel que nous avons supporté, vous savez, de la part de professeurs de l'université d'Ottawa. Le harcèlement sexuel que nous subissions de la part des professeurs que j'ai eus, c'était effrayant et dégoûtant. Et je pense que, vous savez, j'espère que c'est mieux. Rebecca : Oui, je l'espère. Je l'espère. Je l'espère. Avez-vous l'impression que lorsque vous regardez les hommes autour de vous, ils voient les mêmes choses que vous en tant que femme ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Oui, mais, vous savez, j'avais de bons amis qui étaient des hommes et, vous savez, nous... mais c'était instructif... Mais l'un des... et cela varie des années soixante-dix, mais de nombreux produits. Lorsque je pratiquais le droit et que je représentais des clients, les hommes qui étaient, et c'étaient tous des hommes, des ouvriers du bâtiment et l'entreprise pour laquelle ils travaillaient avait fait faillite. Il existe donc ce que l'on appelle les prêts à la construction, et il s'agit d'un système qui permet de s'assurer que les gens sont payés. Les premiers à être payés sont donc les ouvriers. Ensuite, vous savez, c'est entre les banques et les différents prêteurs et les gens. Il s'agissait donc d'un projet de construction. Dans le cadre de ce règlement, on se retrouve devant un juge, avec tous les avocats et les clients, et il s'agit de grandes tables, d'un processus formel et de la répartition des actifs. J'étais enceinte de mon deuxième enfant et en regardant autour de moi, je me suis dit que j'étais la seule femme ici, à cette époque, et je me suis dit : "Vous". Puis je me suis dit : "Wow ! Et mes clients sont les seuls à recevoir de l'argent. Alors je me suis dit, oui ! L'un de mes camarades de classe était présent dans la salle et nous nous sommes retrouvés par la suite, lors d'une rencontre sociale. Il m'a dit : "Oui, j'ai regardé la salle et je me suis dit qu'elle était la seule, la seule femme dans cette salle. Je me demande si elle se sent mal à l'aise. Et j'ai répondu que j'avais remarqué que j'étais la seule femme. J'espère que c'est mieux ainsi. Et, vous savez, je me souviens de 1990, lorsque le juge en chef Dixon a pris sa retraite et que je me suis rendue dans cette grande salle de bal au Château Laurier, où il n'y avait qu'une mer d'hommes blancs, d'âge moyen. Je me demande si je verrai une différence. Puis, lorsque le juge en chef McLaughlin a pris sa retraite en 2017, il y a eu un événement similaire dans une grande salle de bal, et la foule était beaucoup plus diversifiée. Et donc quand nous avons parlé de cela et puis vous savez que les femmes et les hommes, je pense que cela a été une grande chose pour moi. Mais nous n'avons pas du tout parlé de l'aspect racial. Mais je dirais que c'était une autre caractéristique de la diversité. Rebecca : À ce propos, quand vous avez regardé le campus, y avait-il beaucoup de diversité raciale à l'époque ? BK : Dans une certaine mesure, mais je dirais qu'il y avait surtout beaucoup d'étudiants originaires d'Afrique, des pays francophones Rebecca : Oh, d'accord, c'est vrai. Cela me paraît logique. D'accord. Avez-vous vu des discriminations à leur encontre ou est-ce que vous faisiez tellement votre truc que ça ne faisait pas vraiment partie de ce que vous avez vu. BK : Ce n'est probablement pas ce dont j'ai été témoin, et je pense que mes interactions se sont surtout produites lors de soirées dansantes. Parce que j'aime danser. Rebecca : Est-ce que vos danses... c'est ma propre curiosité. Est-ce qu'il y avait des mouvements de danse ? BK : Oui, vous savez, dans les années 1970, il y avait toute une musique appelée disco. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Et il y avait des danses, le hustle, le bump. Il y avait toutes sortes de... Oui. Rebecca : Vous feriez donc de l'agitation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Oh, c'est incroyable. BK : Je sais. Et c'était génial. Et c'est comme si, si vous voulez revenir à mon école et que vous commenciez dans les années soixante en cours de gym, nous faisions - apprenions des danses et, à Winnipeg, je me souviens que nous devions apprendre la polka et c'était essentiel pour aller à des soirées sociales. Il fallait savoir danser la polka. C'était donc intégré dans les programmes scolaires. Mais dans toutes les écoles que j'ai fréquentées, vous savez, une fois que vous êtes arrivé à la sixième ou à la septième année, je suppose, nous avions le vendredi, une fois par mois, peut-être plus souvent, des bals de chaussettes après l'école, et vous enleviez vos chaussures et vous dansiez, des bals de chaussettes, et ensuite, lorsque vous arriviez au lycée, il y avait des bals réguliers. Et je me souviens que maman, euh, une fois, ma bonne amie est venue et maman nous a cousu dans nos robes pour que nos bretelles de soutien-gorge ne se voient pas. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ou peut-être avait-elle d'autres raisons de nous coudre dans nos robes, mais... Rebecca : Excellente remarque ! Oh, mon Dieu. C'est incroyable d'entendre ça, parce que les danses que j'ai connues, ce sont surtout des gens qui se tiennent debout dans le gymnase et qui parlent entre eux. Et il n'y a pas... il n'y a pas de danse. BK : Eh bien, et nous avions l'habitude, comme à l'école secondaire de Winnipeg, ils - j'y suis allé à cause de la carrière de mon père, j'ai vécu un peu partout, mais c'était vraiment régimenté. Si vous n'aviez pas de partenaire de danse, ça n'avait pas d'importance. On se mettait en rang pour danser en face de quelqu'un. Si vous vous teniez contre le mur, nous les appelions les "wallflowers", c'était parce que vous le vouliez. Mais il n'y avait aucune raison de ne pas danser. Et c'était juste, quand c'était les danses lentes. Et puis, bien sûr, il fallait se mettre en couple avec quelqu'un. Mais cela pouvait être un peu plus gênant si vous ne trouviez personne, mais non, c'était vraiment le cas. Et j'ai remarqué que mes fils n'étaient jamais, [nom du fils] était un peu plus impliqué dans la culture étudiante et au lycée, mais les bals étaient plutôt rares. Et c'était vraiment amusant parce que c'était juste un peu inoffensif et innocent et, vous savez, Ouais. Mais moi et mes amis, on est toujours dans un groupe d'amis où on libère un espace, on met de la musique et on danse. Rebecca : Oh, mon Dieu. Vous écoutez de la musique en ce moment ou ? BK : Plus d'Abba. Et... Rebecca : Oui ! Et qui, qui étaient les qui étaient les qui étaient les de l'époque pour vous ? BK : Les groupes que j'aimais. J'aimais les Who, les Rolling Stones, les Beatles, ABBA était toujours très divertissant. Um, Doobie Brothers. Je ne sais pas. Il y en a beaucoup. Rebecca : Excellent. BK : Oui. Les Bee Gees étaient géniaux. Oh, alors vous avez commencé à danser. Rebecca : Je sais ! Je sais. BK : Et comment allez-vous faire ? Rebecca : Comment vais-je faire ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Je vais trouver une solution. BK : D'accord. Rebecca : Trouve une solution. J'organiserai un saut de chaussettes. Je suis triste de quitter cette conversation, mais je dois revenir à la politique. Lorsque vous étiez à l'université et que vous regardiez le gouvernement, aviez-vous l'impression qu'il était juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? Avez-vous eu l'impression d'être entendu, même si des mesures n'ont pas nécessairement été prises ? BK : Honnêtement, je ne pense pas y avoir jamais réfléchi. Rebecca : Pas de problème. BK : Je veux dire qu'il y a eu de grandes négociations constitutionnelles qui ont abouti à la loi constitutionnelle de 1982. Donc, vous savez, c'est certain. C'est vrai. Rebecca : D'accord. J'aimerais aborder un autre sujet que nous avons un peu abordé. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague dans les années soixante-dix. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Pouvez-vous nous en dire un peu plus sur ce que cela signifie ? BK : Eh bien, si vous n'aviez pas à vous soucier d'être enceinte, c'était un effet libérateur. Et l'avortement, bien que, je veux dire, je pense que cela aurait pu être plus tard, comme je ne pense pas que l'accès à l'avortement était particulièrement répandu. En y repensant aujourd'hui, je pense que les hommes l'ont pris - nous parlons des relations hommes-femmes. Et je sais qu'il existe de nombreuses formes différentes, mais nous parlons uniquement de la relation hétérosexuelle normative. Je pense que cela a conduit les femmes à être moins bien traitées. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Oui, je pense qu'au début, c'était un peu plus égalitaire. Et j'observe maintenant que c'est comme si c'était le cas. Rebecca : Pourquoi pensez-vous que c'est le cas ? BK : Je ne sais pas. Pourquoi les femmes se laissent-elles abuser ? Rebecca : C'est vrai. C'est un élément important. BK : Je pense que c'est le cas. Rebecca : Je suis d'accord. Je suis d'accord. Hum... BK : Parce que c'est difficile. Rebecca : Oui, c'est difficile d'être celui qui doit toujours rester puissant. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vous ne pouvez pas vous détendre dans votre être parce que vous devez être forte. Avez-vous ressenti cela au cours de votre carrière ou bien avez-vous toujours eu la volonté d'être forte et d'assumer votre pouvoir ? BK : Oh, non, je ne dirais pas que cela a toujours été facile pour moi. Mais la confiance vient avec l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : Voilà. C'est vrai. BK : J'en ai beaucoup maintenant. Les deux, l'expérience et l'âge. Oui, l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : J'aimerais aborder un sujet que vous avez un peu abordé, mais si vous ne voulez pas répondre ou si cela vous met mal à l'aise, nous sauterons la section. Mais il s'agit de parler un peu plus de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Si vous êtes à l'aise, je vous poserai quelques questions à ce sujet. BK : Bien sûr. Rebecca : Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont des politiques, des règles et des règlements sur le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure avez-vous trouvé que l'université surveillait les événements sociaux, les soirées mixtes ou les expériences sur le campus, en particulier pour les femmes ? BK : Oh, euh, complètement inexistant. Si je me souviens bien. Rebecca : Est-ce que... est-ce que vous étiez fâchée qu'il n'y ait pas plus de surveillance ? BK : J'ai eu un incident où un professeur, euh, a failli me violer et je n'avais nulle part où aller. Et j'en suis furieuse. À l'époque, tout ce que nous pouvions faire, c'était de dire à mes amies ce qui s'était passé, et, vous savez, j'avais - le seul recours que j'avais, c'était, eh bien, si je devais le rencontrer, j'emmenais une amie et nous le regardions fixement, et c'était tout. Mais j'espère que maintenant... Rebecca : D'après mon expérience, c'est différent, oui. BK : Vous pourriez dire, d'accord... Rebecca : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. BK : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. Et vous savez. Rebecca : Alors, est-ce que c'est quelque chose auquel vous pensez encore ? BK : Eh bien, c'est évident, oui, parce que j'en parle. Mais c'est le cas. Et c'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles j'ai voulu en parler, et même faire cette interview, pour me dire que c'est peut-être quelque chose qui a été réduit au silence à l'époque et que... Rebecca : Il n'est pas nécessaire que ce soit maintenant. BK : Oui, oui. Rebecca : Quand vous... dans votre... je ne sais pas, professionnellement. Est-ce que vous voyez beaucoup de ces expériences se produire maintenant ou est-ce que ce n'est pas du tout quelque chose qui vous vient à l'esprit ? BK : Eh bien, dans ma position, oui. Je veux dire que c'était très... Je suis cadre supérieur ici et le harcèlement sexuel est nettement moins fréquent qu'avant. Et je pense que nous avons mis en place de meilleurs systèmes pour traiter tout ce qui - les comportements qui posent problème. Et ce n'est pas une grande partie de ce qui se passe. C'est pourquoi. Rebecca : D'accord. Notre génération est très intéressée par le mouvement de l'amour libre. Hum, quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Eh bien, beaucoup de gens le faisaient, alors oui. Rebecca : C'était normal. C'était juste ce qui se passait et est-ce que c'était juste une sorte de hasard ? Y avait-il un encouragement à la rébellion ou ? BK : Je ne pense pas que les gens aient eu besoin de beaucoup d'encouragement. Rebecca : C'était donc la liberté. Avez-vous l'impression que c'était différent de la génération de vos parents ? BK : Probablement. Mais je pense que cela revient au contrôle des naissances parce que je sais que j'en ai parlé à ma mère et qu'elle m'a simplement dit : "Oh, tu sais, chaque mois, tout le monde s'inquiète. Et si vous tombiez enceinte, vous devriez vous marier, vous savez, comme, ouais, pour avoir un bébé hors mariage, ce qui est comme, eh bien, la chose la plus horrible et... Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. C'était donc plutôt un sujet dont vous étiez libre de parler ? BK : J'étais libre de parler de tout à mes parents, mais nous n'aurions jamais eu l'idée de leur parler de... Oui. C'était différent. Je parle à mes enfants de plus de choses et je leur dis : "Pourquoi me dites-vous cela ? Je ne veux pas savoir. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression d'avoir déjà fait cela avec vos parents ? BK : Vous leur avez dit des choses qu'ils ne voulaient pas savoir ? Non, parce qu'ils le garderaient pour moi ! Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et vous n'avez pas l'impression que c'est le cas aujourd'hui. BK : Non. Oui. Pourquoi me demandes-tu de t'aider à réviser cette dissertation ? J'ai déjà été à l'école. Rebecca et BK : Je n'ai pas besoin de le refaire. Rebecca : C'est tout à fait vrai. C'est ce que je dis à ma sœur quand elle veut que je l'aide. Quoi qu'il en soit, euh, oui. Je suppose que nous en avons un peu parlé, mais avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents s'est inquiétée de vos relations prémaritales ou qu'ils n'ont pas su que cela se produisait ? BK : Ou ils n'étaient pas aussi informés. Non, non, je pense que oui. Non, je ne sais pas. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit un problème. Rebecca : Cela répond à toutes les questions que je me pose. BK : Génial. Rebecca : Avez-vous quelque chose d'autre à mentionner pendant que vous avez le micro ? BK : Pendant que j'ai le micro, vous savez, c'était deux expériences très différentes sur le campus et dans les années soixante-dix et deux programmes différents. Et, euh, mais je pense toujours que ce premier réflexe que j'ai eu d'aller à l'Université d'Ottawa était le bon. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Génial. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K, B (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial from University of Ottawa Alumna about campus life and beyond in the 1970s, with a heavy focus on the bilingual and female experience. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MPEG Audio File, 56 minutes, 12 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Abortion Academics Arts Bilingualism Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Law School Marriage Popular Music Sexual Violence Sports Student Life The Pill Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1950 Birthplace ParrySound, ON, CA Death Date None Schools Attended University Western, London, 1968-1971 Degree BA Career education Occupation teacher, technical writer. Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life chose not to respond Gender Identity chose not to respond Sexual Orientation chose not to respond Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Yuanming Tian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeannette Logan Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Microsoft team) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Transcription Translation 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan, Jeanette (interview) Subject The topic of the resource Analyze the experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yuanming Tian Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Microsoft Teams Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 42 minutes 1970s Bilingualism Dating Drugs Gender Gender Discrimination Marriage medical school Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Pill Popular Music Royal Commission on the Status of Women Second-Wave Feminism University of Ottawa Vietnam