5 10 55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lafrance, Elizabeth Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Turpin, Nicole Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (Via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm Elizabeth Lafrance interviewing. Nicole Turpin, about the Life on campus project in the 70s. 0:0:12.980 --> 0:0:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:0:17.750 --> 0:0:20.560
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so one of the main themes that we're trying to like,
Um, delve into is the impact of popular culture, and so the main question for this part that we're trying to like get into is cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones are related. Together. 0:0:52.680 --> 0:1:3.950
Elizabeth Lafrance
They were less at electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did you? What did you do with students do for fun and then 1970s? 0:1:5.580 --> 0:1:8.790
Nicole
I guess the biggest piece was we spent time together. 0:1:10.230 --> 0:1:14.940
Nicole
There was definitely a separation between the Francophones and the Anglophones. 0:1:16.360 --> 0:1:17.300
Nicole
In first year. 0:1:18.60 --> 0:1:23.300
Nicole
It was more because there was a lot of francophones that were coming from outside of Ottawa. 0:1:24.50 --> 0:1:26.590
Nicole
And did not speak a lot of English. 0:1:27.940 --> 0:1:44.670
Nicole
So there really was a big separation. I was actually in the middle because I came from Ottawa. I was completely bilingual and in sports because I had a fixed and kinesiology courses. 0:1:45.330 --> 0:2:1.190
Nicole
All sports, all the competitive sports, was mixed together. So there was a social circle that was created that didn't exist on campus part from sports. That's the sports part. 0:2:2.390 --> 0:2:2.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:2:2.370 --> 0:2:8.690
Nicole
So for there, that's what. That's where we hung around more and more with both Anglophone and Francophone. 0:2:11.910 --> 0:2:14.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
So did you not have a problem like? 0:2:14.750 --> 0:2:21.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Between each, like anglophone or francophone, where you completely in the middle? Or did you find yourself going to like one side? 0:2:22.140 --> 0:2:26.410
Nicole
Being a Franco Ontarian is very different than a quebecker. 0:2:27.360 --> 0:2:32.640
Nicole
And because I've lived all my life in a bilingual environment, most of my life. 0:2:52.680 --> 0:2:53.280
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:2:33.400 --> 0:3:3.690
Nicole
I was used to it and all of my friends that went to university with me from Ottawa, we would switch back and forth in French and English without even thinking about it. As soon as there was an anglophone in the group, we would switch all the English for that person because the anglophone never even had thought of thinking or talking in French. But the francophones we were all used to it. So that's how we worked. 0:3:4.890 --> 0:3:5.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:6.780 --> 0:3:12.340
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, what were the most popular hangout spots on and off of campus? 0:3:13.310 --> 0:3:13.690
Nicole
Again. 0:3:13.770 --> 0:3:15.420
Nicole
The first year was pretty quiet. 0:3:16.240 --> 0:3:39.300
Nicole
Residence was always a popular place and there was a room, a big room, a meeting room, and there was, I can't remember if there was alcohol on campus or not. I have no memory of that. But it was a big there. there was a lot of music and a lot of dancing, and there was always. You always started there as a group. 0:3:42.740 --> 0:3:43.360
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:40.580 --> 0:3:48.780
Nicole
But we were underage at that time, so it there was a lot less alcohol in those first years. 0:3:50.80 --> 0:4:4.370
Nicole
It's yet to be 21, so it was just kind of like in and out. And yes, there was alcohol everywhere, but it wasn't, you know, in a lot of places. We just aren't allowed to go. We couldn't get in. We looked too young. So that's thing. 0:4:6.720 --> 0:4:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
And when you like, we're graduating. Was it more like focused on alcohol? Like, whenever you'd hang out? 0:4:14.890 --> 0:4:16.110
Nicole
It depended on the group. 0:4:17.200 --> 0:4:22.950
Nicole
We, I hung around very much with the Sports Group, with the athletes. 0:4:23.650 --> 0:4:43.960
Nicole
So most people was mostly alcohol, but I, I knew some people who were completely into drugs as whatever you wanted was there on campus and some some people got really deep into it and even some of my friends that I knew and kind of stayed away from that. 0:4:45.20 --> 0:4:48.330
Nicole
But there was anything you wanted on campus. 0:4:49.360 --> 0:4:49.950
Nicole
Really was. 0:4:52.320 --> 0:4:56.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:4:57.180 --> 0:5:4.780
Nicole
Oh my God. All the time dancing really was something everybody did. Like you went somewhere and you dance. 0:5:14.120 --> 0:5:14.530
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:5:5.410 --> 0:5:26.930
Nicole
For hours and hours and hours. And you, you. You did it like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. You know you did it here every night and 1st year was quieter again. And I lived at home for the first year. So I, you know, of course, my parents were still controlling a little bit more. And I lived in Aylmer in that point. So it was far. 0:5:27.640 --> 0:5:49.960
Nicole
And so that was made a difference in first year. It was a lot quieter after that. I moved into an apartment in Sandy Hill. So that changed everything. I was living on my own with a couple of girlfriends, and life was a lot busier socially. There was always a party going on any night. There was always something for you. 0:5:51.180 --> 0:5:59.30
Nicole
On campus, around campus, the bars around the campus down in-in-the in the market, were always open. 0:6:0.10 --> 0:6:4.790
Nicole
And so yeah, depending on what you need to do that night, there was always something. 0:6:7.980 --> 0:6:20.230
Elizabeth Lafrance
UOttawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s. Did the Francophones and anglophones enrol in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? 0:6:20.620 --> 0:6:22.580
Nicole
OK, so in those days. 0:6:23.420 --> 0:6:29.280
Nicole
Thou shall not cross that line. The courses were only in French and only in English. 0:6:30.10 --> 0:6:32.370
Nicole
I was actually the first student. 0:6:33.750 --> 0:6:48.260
Nicole
That thought that and I ended up sitting in the Dean's office and arguing the point. Why should I not be allowed to go into the French course? Or the English course, depending on which teacher or what time? 0:6:49.650 --> 0:6:54.360
Nicole
Work better for me. But you had to be bilingual to do that. 0:6:55.330 --> 0:7:0.350
Nicole
And I've got they let me do it. And it was not. 0:7:1.110 --> 0:7:7.260
Nicole
It was extremely rare where the courses were together at all. It really was two schools. 0:7:7.920 --> 0:7:10.280
Nicole
On one French side and one English side. 0:7:10.880 --> 0:7:18.730
Nicole
We did, however, socialize a lot together. As we got older and got to know each other. 0:7:20.380 --> 0:7:30.860
Nicole
But to start, it was very much the English type and very much the French type to the point when not where you started or when I was there, we had to do a language test. 0:7:32.310 --> 0:7:32.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:7:32.190 --> 0:7:33.470
Nicole
Or second language test. 0:7:34.200 --> 0:7:39.470
Nicole
And most people, the second language was much lower. 0:7:40.80 --> 0:7:45.740
Nicole
So you would take whatever level, but you were mandated to take a second language course. 0:7:47.190 --> 0:7:53.400
Nicole
I was a keener and being who I was and how I was, I came from a French private school. We were really very, very bilingual. I ended up taking the French sides French and the English sides English of Anthology of English verse, which was horrible. But that's how bilingual I was. 0:8:12.590 --> 0:8:12.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:12.430 --> 0:8:19.880
Nicole
But there was a lot of francophones who could, and anglophones who did not speak a word of the other language or barely. 0:8:21.150 --> 0:8:21.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:22.460 --> 0:8:27.420
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um did Anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:8:27.470 --> 0:8:29.710
Nicole
Ohhhhh the French girls are popular. 0:8:31.630 --> 0:8:39.830
Nicole
There's no question about that. And very quickly everybody started dating and we mixed very quickly. 0:8:41.120 --> 0:9:1.410
Nicole
We were all very close to both the groups, especially in in the groupings, because again, as I said, the sports were worked integrated. So we-we-we got to know each other a lot. It was not like that for a lot of other places. But in our department it really was mixed. 0:9:4.760 --> 0:9:7.750
Elizabeth Lafrance
So how did, like, you being a part of sport change your experince? 0:9:8.850 --> 0:9:15.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
Taking sports, like, change how you ,like, experienced university. 0:9:16.230 --> 0:9:19.480
Nicole
The sports how did it change? Where am I? 0:9:20.980 --> 0:9:21.740
Nicole
Uh. 0:9:21.350 --> 0:9:23.300
Elizabeth Lafrance
No, that was like that's all the script but. 0:9:23.230 --> 0:9:26.600
Nicole
Oh, it's not the- OK, how did I integrate? 0:9:27.580 --> 0:9:35.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
Or like how did you been a part of like sports clubs instead of change how, like your social life like was? 0:9:36.130 --> 0:9:39.330
Nicole
It was very different because I was so fluent. 0:9:40.910 --> 0:9:48.630
Nicole
So whatever sport I wanted to go into, it gravitated different sports gravitated different culture like different groupings, whether it was francophones for certain sports, like volleyball, it was francophone. 0:9:58.130 --> 0:10:0.510
Nicole
And basketball was anglophone. 0:10:1.190 --> 0:10:24.490
Nicole
That was their sports. And so again, I got to do both, but most of the others didn't. But because we were started getting to know each other so much in those sports, and there were others that everybody joined in and you would hear both languages running at the same time. And on the- in the same sentence. 0:10:25.680 --> 0:10:31.210
Nicole
As people got more and more integrated into each other, wanting to be social with each other. 0:10:32.140 --> 0:10:37.190
Nicole
And so that-that created a much more cultural group. 0:10:39.90 --> 0:10:39.820
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:10:41.260 --> 0:10:53.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
We used the term party culture to refer to the social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the part the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? 0:10:54.740 --> 0:10:56.110
Nicole
I have. It was wild. 0:10:57.170 --> 0:10:59.790
Nicole
It was. You have to realize that. 0:11:0.510 --> 0:11:17.380
Nicole
We had been wild. I was coming from private boarding school girls, private school for five years. No, four years. Sorry, that was crazy all of a sudden, it- and you were away from home. Most of half the groupings were in residence. 0:11:18.70 --> 0:11:18.600
Nicole
Um. 0:11:19.260 --> 0:11:19.590
Nicole
Yeah. 0:11:20.460 --> 0:11:22.810
Nicole
There was a a lot of- 0:11:23.710 --> 0:11:28.660
Nicole
Every night girls and boys, there were some heavy partying in those days. 0:11:30.170 --> 0:11:42.180
Nicole
And depending on how important your-your class and your report card or your marks was it, it changed. I mean there was this big crazy time and then everybody kind of. 0:11:42.890 --> 0:11:47.620
Nicole
Who bought a bit realized. Oh, wait a SEC. We actually have to go to classes and we actually have to. 0:11:48.230 --> 0:11:55.700
Nicole
Graduate. So there was this ebb and flow, but it was it really was, wild. Anything, everything. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:2.520
Nicole
And at the same time, it was the first generation of women who we went on the pill. 0:12:3.870 --> 0:12:4.300
Nicole
That. 0:12:4.50 --> 0:12:4.400
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:12:9.200 --> 0:12:10.10
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:12:12.230 --> 0:12:14.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did the student body think about the? 0:12:15.870 --> 0:12:16.190
Nicole
Review. 0:12:15.780 --> 0:12:16.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Vietnam War. 0:12:17.90 --> 0:12:17.530
Nicole
Nothing. 0:12:18.350 --> 0:12:19.470
Nicole
It didn't exist. 0:12:20.290 --> 0:12:30.240
Nicole
You know what did it? Did it? It was barely mentioned. No interest was what was, though hugely was the FLQ and what that is. 0:12:32.850 --> 0:12:33.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:12:31.730 --> 0:12:33.780
Nicole
So that tends to back. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:35.910
Nicole
When we went into. 0:12:38.300 --> 0:12:45.560
Nicole
The FLQ took some English people and ended up they wanted to separate the-the-the province. 0:12:46.730 --> 0:12:53.500
Nicole
It was. It was violent. There's someone that was killed. You'll have to research that part. The FLQ. 0:12:54.170 --> 0:12:57.780
Nicole
That we talked about all the time because. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:4.30
Nicole
In grade12 and 13, when it happened, that's when I was in it. 0:13:4.690 --> 0:13:5.580
Nicole
We had. 0:13:6.330 --> 0:13:28.670
Nicole
Um students in our school that their parents were cabinet ministers and representatives, and we actually had RCMP on campus in our schools for weeks and months so that no one would be kidnapped or that there was no Violence. 0:13:29.370 --> 0:13:34.80
Nicole
But we lived through the FLQ, but Vietnam nothing. Not a word. 0:13:34.970 --> 0:13:38.0
Nicole
I have no memory of everybody talking about that part. 0:13:39.260 --> 0:13:40.190
Nicole
It was more the FLQ. 0:13:39.780 --> 0:13:40.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
So. 0:13:49.660 --> 0:13:52.820
Nicole
It it it warranted a lot of discussions. 0:13:53.510 --> 0:14:9.30
Nicole
It talked about the French identity, Canadian identity, how to integrate French and English. So we we had a lot of discussions with the Francophones and Anglophones talking about identity. 0:14:9.810 --> 0:14:11.740
Nicole
That we did a lot of discussions about. 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:16.390
Nicole
Um, but not nothing about the Vietnam War. 0:14:17.100 --> 0:14:20.60
Nicole
Not with that English French dynamic. 0:14:21.80 --> 0:14:21.620
Elizabeth Lafrance Hmm. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:36.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Rock'n'roll artists in that 1960s had promoted various forms of protests. Did your, did your parents think of rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:38.430 --> 0:14:41.120
Nicole
I was the eldest of seven kids. 0:14:41.980 --> 0:14:47.550
Nicole
And and so I was the first one that walked out the door kind of thing and started. 0:14:49.380 --> 0:14:50.640
Nicole
But they were very. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.850
Nicole
Confident about me as a person and I wasn't into drugs. 0:14:57.550 --> 0:14:58.660
Nicole
So they kind of. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:9.270
Nicole
I mean, they'd comment about it. I can remember my boyfriend at the time. His parents were appalled because he had started letting his hair grow, and that was like. 0:15:10.60 --> 0:15:14.30
Nicole
A huge challenge to parents was the boys having long hair. 0:15:15.0 --> 0:15:25.940
Nicole
When you think about it now it's hilarious. But in those days the boys hair was long and getting longer. That was absolutely the rock influence. 0:15:26.930 --> 0:15:32.400
Nicole
Not the big drug thing because like we skirted it, we didn't really get into it. 0:15:33.670 --> 0:15:39.410
Nicole
Our parents weren't as worried, but I know other parents were. They were definitely worried about it. 0:15:41.830 --> 0:15:44.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
So would you say that your parents were like, strict? 0:15:45.630 --> 0:15:45.920
Nicole
I'm. 0:15:50.890 --> 0:15:51.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:15:47.610 --> 0:15:52.40
Nicole
You have to remember when we're talking about, you know, expectations for children. 0:15:53.80 --> 0:16:4.880
Nicole
Pretty clear, but then I moved out so I only stayed a year with my parents and then I-I was gone after that they they had no say over me, really. I mean, I didn't. 0:16:6.160 --> 0:16:11.220
Nicole
I didn't change my behavior. I still saw them regularly. I still, you know, went over and. 0:16:12.380 --> 0:16:19.880
Nicole
Got fed as often as I could because I lived in the same city. I mean, I lived close. My parents were in in Alymer at that point, so. 0:16:20.570 --> 0:16:22.270
Nicole
It it wasn't as obvious. 0:16:27.660 --> 0:16:27.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:16:22.950 --> 0:16:38.400
Nicole
What did i do that they didn't have a clue what I was doing, really, you know? But they had my younger brother and sisters, they were already into it too. So they were concerned. But I think they trusted us to make good choices at the time. 0:16:41.150 --> 0:16:53.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, some youth culture voices in the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent where recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.190
Nicole
Anything you wanted, you. 0:16:56.530 --> 0:17:9.370
Nicole
I know that I didn't. My sister got into heavy like, i’ll let you know, acid and everything she was into absolutely everything. And she could get it anyway she wanted. 0:17:10.250 --> 0:17:11.830
Nicole
It really was there. 0:17:12.810 --> 0:17:21.380
Nicole
But again, I didn't so, but I knew it was. And me and my husband always talked about. He was stoned during his university. He has no memory of. 0:17:22.130 --> 0:17:29.90
Nicole
Most of the University of the social, so it depended on what you were doing at the time. But yes, it was there. Absolutely. 0:17:34.460 --> 0:17:36.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
During the 1970s. 0:17:36.980 --> 0:17:51.780
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, and you don't have to answer this question, but during 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:17:52.260 --> 0:17:56.360
Nicole
I knew they were, but because I wasn't in it, I don't know. 0:17:58.340 --> 0:17:59.360
Nicole
I mean, I heard about it. 0:18:0.0 --> 0:18:5.330
Nicole
People talk about it, but I didn't do any of it, so I was afraid of drugs actually most. 0:18:5.990 --> 0:18:13.170
Nicole
Really was? I just didn't trust people. Just little Baggies walking around saying here, you know, I just didn't trust it. 0:18:14.130 --> 0:18:14.470
Nicole
So. 0:18:15.540 --> 0:18:18.370
Elizabeth Lafrance
But you were like around that kind of like culture. 0:18:18.150 --> 0:18:24.210
Nicole
Yes, sometimes I was, yeah. Depending on the party, there was always somebody that had a bad a baggie of something. 0:18:25.820 --> 0:18:27.0
Nicole
And you could always get it. 0:18:27.670 --> 0:18:28.180
Nicole
But. 0:18:29.270 --> 0:18:30.880
Nicole
Our group was pretty. 0:18:31.890 --> 0:18:34.530
Nicole
Quiet compared for the for drugs anyway. 0:18:35.950 --> 0:18:43.490
Nicole
So we just kind of stayed away from it and there was groups that that's all they did, they were always stoned in class and out of class. 0:18:44.260 --> 0:18:45.120
Nicole
They they were. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:19:1.200
Nicole
Fine, because I did take quite a lot of our classes outside of the Phys Ed department. Right? You still have sociology. You still had language. You still have other classes where we were mixed with other departments, and there was always somebody that was so gone. 0:19:1.830 --> 0:19:2.530
Nicole
Sat there and. 0:19:4.940 --> 0:19:5.170
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:19:4.350 --> 0:19:5.750
Nicole
Don't know why they were there, really. 0:19:11.360 --> 0:19:11.530
Nicole
Yeah. 0:19:9.190 --> 0:19:13.140
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is like the second section, the female experience. 0:19:14.630 --> 0:19:14.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Uh. 0:19:14.10 --> 0:19:16.960
Nicole
You don't have to read the whole question if you don't want to. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.500
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'll probably do it for like the transcript. 0:19:20.530 --> 0:19:22.0
Nicole
OK, it helps. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.730
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um cultural historians have written a lot about. 0:19:27.470 --> 0:19:44.800
Elizabeth Lafrance
What they call second wave feminism guy as per of the culture, cultural movement, women during the early 1970s sought to breakdown gender barriers. What does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:49.430 --> 0:19:54.920
Nicole
The biggest change in our world, and it was massive really. 0:19:56.390 --> 0:20:0.640
Nicole
All of a sudden, all you need to do was take the pill, you didn't get Pregnant. 0:20:1.480 --> 0:20:7.10
Nicole
And that completely changed their lives as a group of women and. 0:20:7.920 --> 0:20:9.890
Nicole
Most of my friends, we were all in the pit. 0:20:11.780 --> 0:20:16.350
Nicole
And in those days, those pills could have worked on a horse. 0:20:17.260 --> 0:20:22.90
Nicole
And not getting pregnant. It was so, so strong it was. 0:20:23.270 --> 0:20:31.810
Nicole
Crazy the level of of hormones that they gave us in those initial wave of pills, but we took them. 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:34.410
Nicole
And so. 0:20:35.260 --> 0:20:42.910
Nicole
We didn't hear as much about, you know, the horrible life of being pregnant because. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.90
Nicole
Pretty well. Everybody was on the pill that wanted to. 0:20:48.290 --> 0:20:49.250
Nicole
And you could get it. 0:20:50.330 --> 0:20:59.370
Nicole
On or off campus somewhere close, so all the people in residence are the women in residence would go and get, you know, get on the pill. 0:21:2.180 --> 0:21:10.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
In your own words, did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s, or what did? Sorry. 0:21:10.580 --> 0:21:19.840
Nicole
Well, apart from the pill, equal rights all of a sudden, yes, we did a lot of talking as women about how. 0:21:22.490 --> 0:21:30.530
Nicole
Our parents were our our mothers were being encased in this expectation and that we didn't wanna be the same. 0:21:31.530 --> 0:21:38.10
Nicole
We wanted to have more choices. We wanted more things and we realized very quickly that. 0:21:39.870 --> 0:21:49.410
Nicole
It was the man that was running this world and and we weren’t. We were. There was a lot of discussion. There was some really good discussions about. 0:21:50.40 --> 0:22:19.990
Nicole
Representation about government being only men, you know, corporations being led by men we were. We were definitely incensed about that. And it that messaging was definitely coming from the states. It we were hearing it. We were seeing it, there was campus groupings of women that and I remember sitting a couple of them I went, you know, once in a while I'd sit in on on some of those groups you. Cassie was really important that we we understand. 0:22:20.70 --> 0:22:21.750
Nicole
Why and how to change that? 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:36.760
Nicole
But University had the social culture and the and the intellectual culture that we were more even equal because you could talk and you could challenge it there. 0:22:37.670 --> 0:22:40.570
Nicole
But it was very different when we went out into the real world. 0:22:42.170 --> 0:22:46.80
Nicole
That environment that university gave, gave us the opportunity. 0:22:46.730 --> 0:22:47.770
Nicole
To question ourselves. 0:22:48.550 --> 0:22:51.0
Nicole
But it's only when we got into the real world that. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.70
Nicole
We realized wait a SEC. 0:22:54.40 --> 0:22:55.530
Nicole
Still not doing it right. 0:23:4.280 --> 0:23:4.720
Nicole
Yes. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:5.190
Elizabeth Lafrance
So were you a part of like those conversations that was happening in university about, like, feminism and, like, equal rights? 0:23:6.260 --> 0:23:12.830
Nicole
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Often we. Like I said, we would join some of the groups and, and have these discussions. 0:23:13.710 --> 0:23:36.530
Nicole
Think we thought we with the universities you can create a group anytime you wanted to and you could, you know, have a meeting and use a a room. So yes, I-I did was I one to March? No, because I felt quite comfortable where I was in my world. But yes we did. I did sit in on quite a lot of the discussions at that time. 0:23:39.60 --> 0:23:39.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:23:41.130 --> 0:23:53.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to the male students? 0:23:54.510 --> 0:23:59.600
Nicole
So the most interesting thing that happened to us when we when I started. 0:24:0.420 --> 0:24:1.950
Nicole
The first year. 0:24:3.250 --> 0:24:24.580
Nicole
All our classes. OK, so we were the things that we were specializing in teaching physical education, right. It was a course that brought you teaching Phys Ed in schools. OK, so at the first my first year, all my courses in sports were separate. 0:24:25.420 --> 0:24:26.130
Nicole
From the boys. 0:24:27.50 --> 0:24:37.100
Nicole
So we learned the female courses like dance and all of the sports, even basketball. It was all the girls together. 0:24:38.330 --> 0:24:47.300
Nicole
The next year we were there, UOttawa, the Department of Phys Ed, decided that they could not keep doing this. 0:24:48.230 --> 0:25:4.230
Nicole
Because when a teachers got into the real world of teaching, they got caught or they got, they were told they had to teach a class of boys or a class of girls, and they didn't have any background in it. 0:25:4.900 --> 0:25:13.370 Nicole
So that second year and forever after that, all the teaching of sports was mixed. 0:25:14.230 --> 0:25:25.600
Nicole
So, and it was hilarious. I can still see this. One of the guys. And I knew him quite well. He was huge. He was like 280 and he was on the provincial wrestling team. 0:25:27.90 --> 0:25:35.360
Nicole
And he comes to me and says, OK, here it is. You're gonna teach me how to teach dance. And I'm gonna teach you how to how to teach wrestling. 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:43.880
Nicole
I'm nearly got killed with him because he was so huge, but that's how much we had to change all of a sudden. 0:25:44.650 --> 0:25:54.380
Nicole
How we were looking at-at all of the introduction of teaching, because we have to learn the other sports. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:26:9.330
Nicole
And that was a huge hardship, and the teachers had a hard time with you because here you come in with a group of women and go, OK, what do we do with them? Like, how am I gonna teach wrestling to girls who never in their lives wrestle? 0:26:10.210 --> 0:26:10.830
Nicole
That was. 0:26:10.780 --> 0:26:11.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:16.180
Nicole
A big piece, but absolutely shifted how we looked at everything. 0:26:17.30 --> 0:26:20.860
Nicole
And because of that my first job. 0:26:21.980 --> 0:26:28.60
Nicole
I was able to teach. I had three girls classes, but I had two boys classes. 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:32.370
Nicole
And they hired me because I had had that preparation. 0:26:33.890 --> 0:26:34.880
Nicole
But it did make a difference. 0:26:35.730 --> 0:26:36.60
Nicole
Yeah. 0:26:37.750 --> 0:26:45.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
And the 1970s were there, UOttawa programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? 0:26:46.30 --> 0:26:46.230
Nicole
Absoluteely. 0:26:46.340 --> 0:26:46.840
Nicole
Remotely. 0:26:47.540 --> 0:26:52.0
Nicole
Everywhere there were certain things that you could see that you know, the women just weren't there. 0:26:52.660 --> 0:26:55.710
Nicole
Um, there was there was a. 0:26:56.490 --> 0:27:4.870
Nicole
Pick up hockey was the one of the first ones, and again, because women didn't play hockey in those days. 0:27:6.140 --> 0:27:11.890
Nicole
And I remember going to the rink and that's just one example going to the rink and saying I’d love to play hockey. 0:27:12.660 --> 0:27:16.670
Nicole
I can skate. Why can't I learn to play hockey? I got killed. 0:27:18.140 --> 0:27:31.300
Nicole
And if we should pick up hockey, but I because the guys knew me, I they taught me how to do it. But Oh God, there was so many things where it was still the women on one side and the minimum. There's no question about it. 0:27:32.60 --> 0:27:43.900
Nicole
And the man introduced, you know, wanting to go on the on the women's side too, it was as much one side as the other, but slowly, by the end of my five years. 0:27:44.740 --> 0:27:47.350
Nicole
It it was integrated a lot more. 0:27:48.10 --> 0:27:49.820
Nicole
Space compared to when I started. 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:51.230
Nicole
Absolutely. 0:27:53.430 --> 0:27:57.640
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you yourself face challenges, like when you wanted to like? 0:27:58.430 --> 0:28:1.520
Elizabeth Lafrance
Go into a space that was not as like female dominated. 0:28:3.190 --> 0:28:4.880
Nicole
Yes, absolutely. 0:28:5.680 --> 0:28:9.230
Nicole
Um and some women were more. 0:28:10.250 --> 0:28:13.460
Nicole
Comfortable and being in that world. 0:28:14.630 --> 0:28:29.900
Nicole
And I was, um, it really depended on how you-you looked at things. Some of the women weren't comfortable at all. I was skiing instructor, downhill ski instructor, and I ran. 0:28:31.0 --> 0:28:33.730
Nicole
The Speed School Children's school. At camp fortune. 0:28:35.210 --> 0:28:48.180
Nicole
All the way through university on the weekends, I was in charge of all the kids programs and we're talking 2000 kids a weekend. It was a massive ski school and I ran that. 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:50.670
Nicole
So I was with the guys all the time. 0:28:52.30 --> 0:29:3.840
Nicole
And I was the only woman that ran these programs. The others were all male, so I was more comfortable. But I knew a lot of women who would never have stepped up. 0:29:5.130 --> 0:29:15.970
Nicole
But again, by the end of my five years there, it was more accepted. It was more natural to have a women coming into sports that. 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:17.840
Nicole
You know, wouldn't have. 0:29:18.500 --> 0:29:25.430
Nicole
Now, but even then, I- my daughter, who played boys, competitive hockey. 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:36.310
Nicole
Did have her challenges? So I could I can still see. It's not completely there. It never will be. I don't think. But we've come a long way. 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:44.790
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm going to move on to the another theme that ideology and generation on differences. 0:29:46.490 --> 0:30:6.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents, generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize or a more just or just adjust society and better world? 0:30:8.590 --> 0:30:17.580
Nicole
So there's a lot of. So we talked a lot about language and female and male. The one I think that. 0:30:18.750 --> 0:30:23.170
Nicole
Really, we started to understand more as we got into you like. 0:30:24.770 --> 0:30:29.890
Nicole
Old in more older grades of the university was more multicultural. 0:30:31.100 --> 0:30:31.850
Nicole
It was all white. 0:30:32.730 --> 0:30:35.230
Nicole
And if there were so few black. 0:30:35.890 --> 0:30:37.620
Nicole
Kids in the school. 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:50.290
Nicole
And that's the one that we all all of a sudden started questioning saying, why is it like that? Like what is it with, you know, all of a sudden there was there was these discussions about. 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:55.710
Nicole
That hadn't existed before. My world was completely white. 0:30:57.280 --> 0:31:7.10
Nicole
And all of a sudden we were starting to say, well, why aren't they here or there we-we would talk to them and and they would be starting to say. 0:31:8.210 --> 0:31:9.650
Nicole
But why is it like that? 0:31:9.990 --> 0:31:13.250
Nicole
Um, so yeah, we-we did start. 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:26.620
Nicole
Talking about why and how you know, also again still the male female challenges of being represented to everywhere. So we you were pushing the envelope. 0:31:28.220 --> 0:31:31.890
Nicole
In our days, quite a lot more than when we started. 0:31:33.510 --> 0:31:43.110
Nicole
There was a lot more of why not and why can't we do this and let's let's go and find out or let's get involved more. 0:31:44.300 --> 0:31:51.940
Nicole
Which a lot of women didn't at the beginning and we had a greater voice of challenging that that piece. 0:31:53.80 --> 0:31:55.260
Nicole
But the multicultural piece does. 0:31:56.270 --> 0:32:1.540
Nicole
I really eye opener at the beginning started talking to the few. 0:32:2.680 --> 0:32:3.980
Nicole
Black kids that were with us. 0:32:5.290 --> 0:32:8.110
Nicole
And it was really eye opening back for sure. 0:32:10.650 --> 0:32:18.90
Elizabeth Lafrance
To what extent did your generation believe that your parents, and their notions about gender, family and dating, were outdated? 0:32:20.490 --> 0:32:21.160
Nicole
OK. 0:32:24.290 --> 0:32:28.780
Nicole
Yes, it it was because of the pill. The pill changed our lives. 0:32:29.540 --> 0:32:30.870
Nicole
Because before that. 0:32:31.650 --> 0:32:32.40
Nicole
If. 0:32:35.950 --> 0:32:40.80
Nicole
And all of a sudden that was all gone. You could do whatever you wanted to. 0:32:40.770 --> 0:32:42.460
Nicole
Where as our parents. 0:32:43.630 --> 0:32:47.0
Nicole
You know, they they really believed in in being, you know. 0:32:48.370 --> 0:32:49.740
Nicole
More individual. 0:32:50.380 --> 0:32:51.30
Nicole
Um. 0:32:53.180 --> 0:32:58.140
Nicole
I could see that that was definitely a challenge. 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:0.650
Nicole
Equal pay for equal work. 0:33:1.650 --> 0:33:7.930
Nicole
Um, I think that was one that we started hearing a lot now in education, it was equal. 0:33:8.910 --> 0:33:18.150
Nicole
But the jobs were not equal and we were hearing that already because we would have, we would go into schools and do practicals. 0:33:19.140 --> 0:33:23.690
Nicole
And so we were in the schools and it was very obvious that. 0:33:24.620 --> 0:33:28.270
Nicole
The senior administration, principals and vice principals were all male. 0:33:29.910 --> 0:33:31.140
Nicole
There were no female. 0:33:32.10 --> 0:33:36.460
Nicole
That we saw. So we realized even then that. 0:33:37.210 --> 0:33:43.250
Nicole
Wait a SEC, why is there not. And-and 80% of teachers are female, but yet? 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:53.780
Nicole
You know, it was like 90% male in administration and and and also in the teaching environment we didn't have a lot of female teachers. 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:58.420
Nicole
So, and the ones we did really did help us. 0:33:59.210 --> 0:34:2.680
Nicole
To voice our-our concerns, but there's no question. 0:34:3.850 --> 0:34:6.370
Nicole
We were second guessing ourselves for that one for sure. 0:34:9.860 --> 0:34:12.670
Elizabeth Lafrance
Talking about to the 1970s. 0:34:14.780 --> 0:34:21.160
Elizabeth Lafrance
What aspect of Canadian to society did you see as most out of whack and in needing of fixing? 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.170
Nicole
Again, same thing. It really was. 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.330
Nicole
OK, great. equal work. 0:34:28.460 --> 0:34:37.30
Nicole
We- it was very obvious about that. We thought we could change the world. You do when you're at university because you're talking with other people that agree with you. 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:42.830
Nicole
And so it's only when you get into the work world that. 0:34:43.710 --> 0:34:46.310
Nicole
Things don't change as quickly as you want it to. 0:34:47.350 --> 0:34:51.180
Nicole
So the environment you live in through your university years. 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.120
Nicole
Are your most open. 0:34:55.260 --> 0:34:58.840
Nicole
In terms of questioning the why and how. 0:35:0.160 --> 0:35:4.550
Nicole
But it's only when you get into the work world that you realize, oh. 0:35:5.260 --> 0:35:6.120
Nicole
It's not as simple as that. 0:35:7.710 --> 0:35:10.120
Nicole
But in theory it sounded great that university. 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:12.680
Nicole
That was a huge right there. 0:35:14.240 --> 0:35:17.120
Nicole
And and it needed fixing. There's no question about that. 0:35:19.370 --> 0:35:20.140
Nicole
That’s the difference. 0:35:19.850 --> 0:35:20.380
Elizabeth Lafrance I'm. 0:35:24.900 --> 0:35:30.690
Elizabeth Lafrance
What were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:35:32.130 --> 0:35:36.950
Nicole
Again, women being able to work outside of home. 0:35:37.700 --> 0:35:41.610
Nicole
And I was still in that generation where you stayed at home with your kids. 0:35:42.810 --> 0:35:43.680
Nicole
Um. 0:35:45.890 --> 0:36:2.190
Nicole
And most women I knew were talking about being home with kids, you know, and share your kids and racism again, same thing. There was a lot of injustices in-in, in the black community. 0:36:2.940 --> 0:36:5.870
Nicole
And we were just starting to be aware. 0:36:7.510 --> 0:36:9.410
Nicole
So there was definitely. 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:11.330
Nicole
For that too. 0:36:15.240 --> 0:36:23.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you feel that any political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:36:24.430 --> 0:36:28.890
Nicole
They were responsible, responsive to the white male. 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:31.260
Nicole
No one else. 0:36:32.40 --> 0:36:33.850
Nicole
It was all about the white male. 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:36.420
Nicole
Everything was. 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:44.900
Nicole
Control directed. There's no question that we were not equal and not and we still are not represented. 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.130
Nicole
So you can imagine back then how much, how little there was. 0:36:49.900 --> 0:37:2.930
Nicole
And we were we were talking about it a lot more or aware of it here. That first generation that said, hang on here. You know, why is it that? But it took a lot of. 0:37:4.100 --> 0:37:8.840
Nicole
Thinking of looking ahead to want to be one of those women that broke the seal? 0:37:10.110 --> 0:37:12.820
Nicole
And that was that. It took a while for that to happen. 0:37:13.620 --> 0:37:13.820
Nicole
Here. 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:16.930
Elizabeth Lafrance
And. 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:25.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is also talking on how cultural historians have argued that introduction to the birth control pill. 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:28.70
Elizabeth Lafrance
Legalization of abortion and dissemination. 0:37:28.550 --> 0:37:40.540
Elizabeth Lafrance
Of the manifestation of the free love ideology changed general gender relations and dating practices, in the early 1970s, do you agree with this statement? 0:37:41.10 --> 0:37:48.790
Nicole
Absolutely. It was massive. It really was. It was huge. It changed the whole lives up for us as a woman. 0:37:49.780 --> 0:37:53.570
Nicole
And you could decide when you wanted to be a mother. 0:37:55.340 --> 0:37:56.0
Nicole
Didn't before. 0:37:56.650 --> 0:38:0.370
Nicole
There was an expectation when I remember my mom telling me that that. 0:38:1.490 --> 0:38:8.570
Nicole
These would come around and they’d be pregnant by now. Again like there was a huge push, whereas the pill changed back. 0:38:9.540 --> 0:38:12.370
Nicole
You wanted to work for another five years and not get pregnant. 0:38:13.500 --> 0:38:13.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:38:14.660 --> 0:38:18.750
Nicole
And you had control over your life much, much more than our parents did. 0:38:22.500 --> 0:38:26.660
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did dating look like? At UOttawa in the 1970s? 0:38:29.220 --> 0:38:29.420
Nicole
I. 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:31.310
Nicole
It was pretty crazy. 0:38:32.430 --> 0:38:36.760
Nicole
It really was that first generation of. 0:38:37.500 --> 0:38:38.950
Nicole
Whenever we want because. 0:38:39.630 --> 0:38:40.660
Nicole
I can't get pregnant. 0:38:42.210 --> 0:38:43.750
Nicole
So it was. 0:38:44.620 --> 0:38:47.480
Nicole
Some of it was bad. Some of it was over the top. 0:38:48.290 --> 0:38:51.0
Nicole
Some women got badly. 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:54.100
Nicole
Abused. 0:38:55.90 --> 0:38:57.940
Nicole
Because of that, and we. 0:38:58.810 --> 0:39:1.610
Nicole
We didn't know any better to say. 0:39:4.210 --> 0:39:6.660
Nicole
It's saying when we said no. 0:39:7.310 --> 0:39:9.480
Nicole
It means no those days. 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:15.250
Nicole
You-you had to be strong as an individual woman to say no. 0:39:15.980 --> 0:39:20.120
Nicole
And then I heard through the Grapevine often. 0:39:21.190 --> 0:39:33.200
Nicole
Me push the limits and women have been raped and and we would talk about it, but we never did anything about it. You didn't go to the police, didn't go to senior staff about it. You just. 0:39:34.660 --> 0:39:36.660
Nicole
Model of the person that had lived through it. 0:39:38.20 --> 0:39:38.580
Nicole
It was. 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:40.940
Nicole
Yeah, it was bad. 0:39:41.740 --> 0:39:47.920
Nicole
Um, you got smart as the group of women, and so if you didn't want to be. 0:39:48.940 --> 0:39:51.430
Nicole
You you moved in groups a lot. 0:39:52.980 --> 0:39:55.390
Nicole
As women, we still do, don't you? 0:39:56.180 --> 0:39:56.660
Nicole
You know. 0:39:56.520 --> 0:39:56.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yes. 0:39:57.340 --> 0:40:0.250
Nicole
Yeah. So you learn to be smart. 0:40:1.810 --> 0:40:3.920
Nicole
And I think that's what we learned. 0:40:4.750 --> 0:40:8.940
Nicole
About that part, just because you were on the pill did not mean you were safe, yes. 0:40:9.690 --> 0:40:13.400
Nicole
That's the people I think that they're very quickly. 0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:14.600
Nicole
Um. 0:40:15.330 --> 0:40:16.590
Nicole
And saying no. 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:29.750
Nicole
With something that we learned has a group of women like talking to each other and and saying, wait a SEC. You know, I don't want to go out with this guy and they're saying, well, why do we have to kind of thing? 0:40:30.500 --> 0:40:30.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:40:31.930 --> 0:40:32.230
Nicole
Negative. 0:40:33.470 --> 0:40:36.960
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:40:38.430 --> 0:40:38.890
Nicole
Ah. 0:40:40.240 --> 0:40:40.680
Nicole
I think. 0:40:42.60 --> 0:40:48.280
Nicole
We still work very, very much living the same as our parents in terms of expectations. 0:40:49.180 --> 0:40:51.520
Nicole
Finding a family wanting to be married. 0:40:52.240 --> 0:40:58.450
Nicole
But we took longer to do it. We waited longer because we had that luxury. 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:1.40
Nicole
Of not getting pregnant. 0:41:2.40 --> 0:41:6.710
Nicole
He had the time to make the decisions later. 0:41:7.440 --> 0:41:8.170
Nicole
Then our parents. 0:41:8.930 --> 0:41:12.30
Nicole
My mom was pregnant by 21. 0:41:12.690 --> 0:41:16.400
Nicole
Married. You know, in the suit she's married. She was pregnant. 0:41:17.500 --> 0:41:18.110
Nicole
Whereas. 0:41:18.870 --> 0:41:33.130
Nicole
I had that luxury of saying, well, you know what I-I wanna work. I wanna work more and take my time making those decisions and maybe finding the right guy. And so we had that luxury. 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:42.550
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:44.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so. 0:41:45.20 --> 0:41:46.620
Elizabeth Lafrance
You’ve read the questions, right? 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:47.140
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:49.430 --> 0:41:49.780
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:48.40 --> 0:41:50.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Do you want to answer like, the final question? 0:41:51.930 --> 0:41:52.990
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:55.290 --> 0:42:6.110
Elizabeth Lafrance
Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:42:6.810 --> 0:42:7.920
Nicole
Absolutely nothing. 0:42:9.600 --> 0:42:17.380
Nicole
There was always a security guard there, but he was as dangerous as the kids and the boys. 0:42:18.130 --> 0:42:21.730
Nicole
And that's why we were really hung out as groups. 0:42:22.870 --> 0:42:29.100
Nicole
So women, unless you were with your boyfriend, you know that was wrong. You know, more of a relationship. 0:42:30.70 --> 0:42:40.430
Nicole
That security was half the time. It was one of the older guys that was paid to be that. It would have put a jacket on and he'd be a security guy. 0:42:41.100 --> 0:42:51.650
Nicole
Or an older man. And no, you did not go and tell those guys that something happened to you. It was never talked that way unless. 0:42:53.250 --> 0:43:3.420
Nicole
Unless the woman was beaten up and you had called, you had to call an ambulance. That was a different story, and even then it was it was not sexually. 0:43:5.630 --> 0:43:9.850
Nicole
I'm saying so it we didn’t talk about that part very much- she didn't. 0:43:10.870 --> 0:43:16.530
Nicole
I never experienced anyone around me that happened. I heard it through the Grapevine. 0:43:17.210 --> 0:43:17.800
Nicole
Um. 0:43:18.900 --> 0:43:21.270
Nicole
But no, there was.
Nicole
You really had to think on your feet. You had to be smart. 0:43:30.350 --> 0:43:31.740
Nicole
And you learned that. 0:43:32.410 --> 0:43:39.910
Nicole
Being the women burned, what was safer to do so that you wouldn't? You wouldn't get in that situation. 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:41.320
Nicole
And. 0:43:42.490 --> 0:43:53.430
Nicole
I was lucky and my group lucky, so I guess it depended on you know, the type of relationship you have with the guys and how you did each other. 0:43:54.60 --> 0:43:57.350
Nicole
But I heard that line I would hear about. 0:43:58.210 --> 0:43:58.460
Nicole
Or. 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:3.890
Nicole
Absolutely. Especially the first two years and it was always senior guys. 0:44:4.780 --> 0:44:5.740
Nicole
You know that would be. 0:44:7.220 --> 0:44:10.700
Nicole
Going on at after the- the younger ones who had just arrived. 0:44:12.130 --> 0:44:13.620
Nicole
And that- that made a big difference. 0:44:16.810 --> 0:44:30.940
Elizabeth Lafrance
Our generation is interested in a free love movement. What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in 1970s? Was it viewed negatively, accepted or even encouraged? 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:36.810
Nicole
It was encouraged. I was fun. It really was. I mean, we were that first generation. 0:44:37.550 --> 0:44:39.190
Nicole
That all of a sudden? 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.170
Nicole
You you didn't have to worry about it. So you. 0:44:44.240 --> 0:44:45.10
Nicole
You had fun. 0:44:46.310 --> 0:44:48.260
Nicole
It was definitely expected. 0:44:48.920 --> 0:45:3.980
Nicole
And yet there was still a lot of girls who didn't want to go on the pill and did not really, you know, save themselves for the- the guy. And that was fine too. But most of us. 0:45:5.10 --> 0:45:8.760
Nicole
Um, you just live the way you want to. 0:45:10.170 --> 0:45:11.950
Nicole
It was pretty wild, that's for sure. 0:45:15.530 --> 0:45:21.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did members of your parents generation worry about pre marital sex? 0:45:22.30 --> 0:45:24.710
Nicole
Ohm. My God, my mother was so petrified for me to get pregnant. 0:45:25.410 --> 0:45:52.490
Nicole
And she didn't find out I was on the pill till much later. Didn't ask her permission to. I didn't dare talk about that. And it's only years later. And by then my sister, who's not much older and much younger than I was. And I'm the one who told her, alright, you're gonna do something. You better go get it and we could. We could go into a clinic. We could go into. It was right on campus. 0:45:53.850 --> 0:45:56.80
Nicole
That part you could find. 0:45:56.270 --> 0:46:0.980
Nicole
Um prescription for- for the pill, that's for sure. 0:46:2.130 --> 0:46:3.120
Nicole
It was. 0:46:5.350 --> 0:46:30.950
Nicole
It would. You just could find it. I- I went to my family doctor and by then I was one. And the other thing too. We were we were older because we had grade 13. Right. So we were one year older. So by the time we finished and I had to have a 5 year degree. So we were there for quite a while. So we were a lot older. 0:46:31.990 --> 0:46:33.570
Nicole
So that made a difference too. 0:46:34.660 --> 0:46:40.720
Nicole
But the decisions were easier to get to, and the- the bill was easy to get too, for sure. 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:41.950
Nicole
Um. 0:46:42.850 --> 0:46:45.80
Nicole
And I think that changed. How. 0:46:46.610 --> 0:46:47.220
Nicole
We lived. 0:46:51.100 --> 0:46:52.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So it's all my questions. 0:46:53.10 --> 0:46:56.590
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'm going to stop the recording and. 0:46:59.10 --> 0:46:59.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
transcription now. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4, 47 minutes, 13 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Turpin, Nicole (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about The University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including the counter-culture movement and second-wave feminism Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Bilingualism Generational Differences Hippies Kiniesiology Leisure Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Popular Music Race Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Sovereignty Sports The Pill University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erik Galama Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed G. George Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Erik Galama 0:15 It’s the 21 of October the date or the time I should say is 1:15. I am, I the interviewer Erik Galama And I'm interviewing George over teams for the life on campus project. So let's get started. Alright. So. Ah, where do I put? There's questions. Alright, so is the first topic we are going over is pop culture. So the. The main Category here is or I say the main question is, cultural historians have argued that the television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles has created a more integral North American popular culture. Um, as Ottawa or University of Ottawa is a bilingual institution? The purpose is questions are to better understand how anglophones and francophones relate together. So the first question here is um. So there was less electronics in Canada society in the 1970s compared to today. How was a leisure time structured? Or how did OttawaU use students or what do use students do for fun in that time period? George 1:40 That's the question? Erik Galama 1:42 Yeah. So. George 1:42 Do for fun. Erik Galama 1:44 Yep, first one. Yeah, for fun. So what, what was the like? What how was your leisure time structured? What was it built around? Was it? I cause this was television still came more popular around this time. Most people would've had one. So was it built around? That was the other things. George 2:09 (illegible) is always part of society nowadays or at that time too. Think work was also very important leisure time because I didn't have time for leisure time at university and then basically I work and I study. So I didn't have a lot of real quality leisure time available to myself. Erik Galama 2:27 So you would say it's at least was for you was mostly structure around work and there wouldn't be a lot of time just for leisure. George 2:37 Exactly exactly. I had to pay for my education, right? So I've been working basically all the time that I have free and then I have to study as well. So it's. There was a much leisure time, as if we're called leisure time. Erik Galama 2:51 All right, for follow up is that I'm so first the on campus itself. If there was time, to be hanging out and stuff, what would be the most popular spots to people would be hanging out on or off campus? George 3:09 If I hung out It would be. It would have been on campus because it would have been. Probably near where my classes were being held. Would that be with my colleagues waiting them. Talk. Whatever is, are sticking to the corner 30 minutes away or something like that. Not as far as going outside the campus area, no. Erik Galama 3:28 No. OK. George 3:29 No. Erik Galama 3:30 Uh, so next question, I don't know how much is applies to you, but during your years at university, did you ever attend a live musical event? George 3:40 No. Erik Galama 3:40 No. Uh, where's your many are in Ottawa at that time for you to even attend if you wanted to. George 3:49 Don't think I don't really recall like live ones? No, no. Erik Galama 3:53 OK. George 3:53 I think the UFT had a couple of smaller ones like some. like in the cafeteria or something. A small local like a student band or something like that, but that, that, that would be the closest to live entertain. Erik Galama 4:07 All right. Um, so OttawaU uses to be bilingual or is bilingual institution. Um. That. I. Sorry, that question was written in broken English. Oh yeah, so basically because OttawaU is a bilingual institution. There's many. There's a bunch of mixing in francophones and anglophones because they rolled the same university and courses. How much was like how? How much was there mixing between anglophones and francophones? Or were they quite separate apart? George 4:48 That's a good question. What I could tell? I mean my classes were filled with both anglophones and francophones. I don't really think it was really that easy to distinguish the two. They seemed to I I'm I'm basically anglophone, right? So I don't speak French. Maybe. It was a different, but the people I saw met or you got along pretty good together ang francophones. Erik Galama 5:16 Alright, so you wouldn't say that. There was like noticeable like separation between the two groups. George 5:24 I did not see that. No, no. Erik Galama 5:26 OK. Next question actually relate to that is, did anglophones and francophones ever date each other? George 5:35 You'd have to ask them individually, I guess, right? Erik Galama 5:38 Yeah, fair enough. Well, from your own perspectives, did you see that? George 5:41 that I don't, that I don't have any ideas. Erik Galama 5:44 Then it is alright. Um. So in modern terms, to, we used the term party culture to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture on university of ottawa during the 70s if you could? George 6:01 First, I lived off at, at home, right? So that was like it's now work transit every day. About 2 hours back one way and those days. So I didn't have much time at all to partake in the party culture. Well there was party culture there, but I didn't take part. I just have to the time. Erik Galama 6:04 All right. George 6:17 How? How big it was? I don't really know. But there I know people that that's, that's all they talk about. But that would be the minority. Erik Galama 6:25 OK. Um. Next is, so I during actually when you're at the university, the Vietnam War would be over. But generally speaking, how would you see the student body over like idea of the Vietnam War was it? And like, how prevalent was anywhere that person? So how did the student body when you where there, view the Vietnam War or is the anti-war movement? George 7:00 I don't recall it in my time period at all. Erik Galama 7:03 No. George 7:03 not a lot of university, no. doesn’t seem part of the conversation. But what I saw, maybe there's some people that are more involved in that and talking about it in their groups and even more to. not into the people that are associated with. Erik Galama 7:18 Alright. George 7:20 I think I think it was before my time at university anyway, so. Erik Galama 7:20 I. Yeah, it should have been, but I wasn't sure also how much bleed over there was. George 7:27 Yeah. Erik Galama 7:34 Uh. That I so in the 70s, two rock'n'roll started to become more populous and a lot of art, rock and rollers in the 1960s have been promoted, promoted various forms of protest. How did your parents or see rock roll as a rebellious like former music? Or was it just a form of popular music? George 8:02 They didn't like it. I thought it was really poor quality and looking like the old music which people involved, right or technical skills and stuff like that. They didn't like it. I don't think they looked at as being rebellious. They just they'd like it. Erik Galama 8:17 So they. George 8:17 The other was more like, but then was just yelling and screaming. That's really what it was. I don't think they really think about it being rebellious music or stuff with that. Erik Galama 8:27 So they so they never thought it was rebellious, more as a they just didn't like the sound of it. Would that be correct? George 8:36 I would say I was. I would say that's what it was. Yes, it's not what they grew up with and when it was such a different thing. Yeah. You recognize that people look into that time so. Erik Galama 8:46 Yep. Um, follow-up is so so some culture voices In the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent did recreational drugs availability on campus occur during 1970s? So how common were drugs basically? George 9:07 Was there but. sorts of the people I hung around with. It wasn't not really there. So there's probably a certain sub segments of the student body and not for the cluster body as well, but. If it was not they. Very, very minimal from what I saw. Erik Galama 9:25 Alright, for reference, would you say it's be more as prevalent or less prevalent today, like in just general cult like public? And like culture. George 9:39 Probably probably less, I would say. Erik Galama 9:42 That's alright. George 9:43 Yeah, I think so. But it's it's. It's a tough question. Erik Galama 9:50 Next one sort of relating to the last question was. So in the 70s. psychedelics were coming more common use, to what extent did the students on campus use psychedelic drugs. Or if any? George 10:06 I I. I made it. I've been really answered that question. I mean, I know where stuff out there, but how much I've, you know, I I can't even take a guess at that that would be. Erik Galama 10:12 Yeah. George 10:17 Wrong thing to do. It's so small, small writes up, but maybe there's a whole segment of this to the population that was very heavily involved in it, but I would not in that group. Erik Galama 10:26 OK. Alright, so that is the first section done, which is the impact of popular culture. So this section section we're gonna get onto is the female experience. So as the main question there is. Sorry is. For culture, historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave of feminism. This is part of the counterculture movement and women in the 19 early 1970s sought to breakdown gender barriers during this. Does this argument with your experience, or does this argument resonated with your experience on the campus during the 70s? Um and also basically, do you believe that? There was a large or a noticeable feminist movement on campus. George 11:31 Hmm. Either way, there was some of that you wouldn't say is like really noticeable anything, but you can see people becoming more sensitive to that whole notation. Erik Galama 11:46 Uh, so would you say? It was more prevalent. Like the first few years there or did became more and more common. At the later you're. George 11:57 I don't. I was only there for three years. I was not a perfectionist student like some people, so I can't really. I wanted to try to answer that one. Erik Galama 12:02 Alright. So you wouldn't have any idea if, uh, like so for like the first year is there, you have no clue if was more common than when you're by the time you graduated or left? George 12:15 Yeah, like that was there to study them, went home to work, right. So I'm not socializing with a lot of people at the university, so I can't really property answer that question. Right. I didn't notice. I, I could. I can’t answer that. I didn’t notice the difference. Erik Galama 12:24 All right. OK. And also follow-up to that. The time before you went to university, how would you say it was also common before that? George 12:42 I would say it was about the same. Yeah, that's sort of run that time period, yeah. Erik Galama 12:45 All right. So in your own words, what did feminism like mean to Canada in the early 70s? George 12:59 It was just think it was trying to. Have recalled by of the the sexist or and recognition of the difference, but building equality. Erik Galama 13:10 Alright. George 13:10 A little more respect for each other, I guess is what it comes down to really. Erik Galama 13:14 Hmm. Uh. OK. For two is so in the 70s. Words are programs, apartments, clubs that were at were women were less. Um, represent or less or more and less of compared to other programs. George 13:35 Alright, if I look at the programs that I was in, I'd say it was a. It wasn't really that much difference. I mean, maybe a little bit less women than men, but not really significant amount. Erik Galama 13:47 What program? George 13:48 Such steps, although my studies right, I mean that they go to school to study, didn't go there to going join clubs and stuff like that and have the time for it had to work for my fees to pay processors right to renting the building and stuff. So all I could talk about is my classroom and the classrooms were. Erik Galama 13:53 Yeah. Yeah. George 14:03 Not much difference over people, even distributed. Maybe some less females than males, but not not a significant amount. Erik Galama 14:10 Alright, I around. I would program were you in. So I can just get George, so I. George 14:22 Commerce, commerce. Erik Galama 14:22 Commerce, OK. George 14:24 Yeah. Erik Galama 14:24 So you'd say commerce was around a 50/50 split? George 14:28 Yeah, a little bit less than 50/50, but it wasn't. You're not looking like 80/20 or anything like that no. Erik Galama 14:31 Alright. OK, so it wasn't, it was quite evenly split originally not like a major difference. George 14:39 No, I think it's rounded time when. When we started getting more into those fields like we're talking about the late 70s. Erik Galama 14:44 Hmm. George 14:47 Not the beginning. At the moment, it's the movement already been underway for a while and. Erik Galama 14:52 OK, I. So you said you you're not sure about our programs you at all, so you wouldn't be able to tell for like engineering or you sent that? George 15:02 No, no. I would like to talk about other programs. That's what I came to study and that's basically where I stayed. Erik Galama 15:08 OK. Uh. So then it is for that's done for feminism. Next topic is on ideology, and like generational differences. So many question here is historians have written a lot about what they called the counterculture revolution. That meaning means that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents, revolution or generation. To what extent did people in your cultural or social circles seem cells as need to mobilize for more? Just for more just society and the better world. George 15:57 We don't know the like like, you know, I think that I think that this historians trying to write something on paper so they could get their this is approved. Erik Galama 15:57 Yes. George 16:05 Uh, I think that there was a lot of conversation about. You know the way it was with our parents, right? And the way we wanted to have. Erik Galama 16:12 Hmm. George 16:14 I wouldn't hold like a rebellion and stuff like that. I think that just overstating it let me go to the movement for it. I guess in general, but because a lot of people realize that, you know the. Or our parents generation. They had a lot of good stuff going for them and we need to be changed in certain ways, but. You know, it's just like it's like any generation. I mean, you talked about my generation. You gonna talk about the Ask the same question about your generation and you'll find it. It's basically the same answers. It all changed, right? I mean, every generation wants to change from the preceding generation. Doesn't mean that the generation thinks that preceding generation was. Erik Galama 16:39 Hmm. George 16:49 Was bad or wrong, it's just a different way. They want to look at thinking different way before every setback maybe be more open mind or something and you know, next generation gonna say maybe we should be more close minded. It says it's a cycle that goes through. Erik Galama 16:49 Hmm. George 17:02 So yeah, that was part of the conversation. Erik Galama 17:02 OK. So you said it be part conversation. You just wouldn't say it be like a dramatic change. It was more smaller changes. George 17:10 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's more realistic. It was there. People talk about it and and stuff like that, but it wasn't getting into rebellion. Finding stuff like the like the refresh. Wanna stay sometimes? No, I don't think that's what the case at all. At least not with environment that I was in. Erik Galama 17:12 OK. OK. So yeah, so far for that is so to. What extent, I guess, did your generation believe in your parents like ideals of gender, family and dating? That's like the cultural ideals of your parents. How much did they believe in that? George 17:50 I think there's. That's where a lot of the changes were basically around that. I mean, it's generally more open to add more openness to meeting and stuff like that and less stricter rules and that kind of stuff, so. Looking for more freaking like that? Like I think they probably there from their parents as same same time. What are the same to my parents talking about their parents? There's they were rebellious as well right so. Erik Galama 18:02 Right. OK. So you would say that there was. The main change is at least were towards dating and. That idea instead of actually, yeah, that's what you said would be. So they made changes were towards dating and compared to their parents. George 18:35 Yeah, dating and and and even like that. I think with the. Try to get into your era of the divorce at that time. Divorce of becoming very popular. I think that was a big difference too. Erik Galama 18:45 Yeah. George 18:46 Your parents didn't really believe in divorce, although my mother said that people can't live together why should they but a lot of other people. We're very different than that. Erik Galama 18:56 OK. George 18:56 There were no days that that time started being like you doesn't work just. It also goes up someplace else. Erik Galama 19:03 Alright. So looking back on the 70s, what like aspect of Canadian society do you see as the most? Broken and in the need of fixing. George 19:26 Broken in the need of shifting. Erik Galama 19:28 Yeah. So that could be, um, how? Like women how are perceived. It could be also towards gender any it could be to. You it's quite broad, so basically any idea of part of like any culture or society? George 19:46 Yeah, I I see. I wish it would be (illegible) if in this situation right, you don't know how they were being treated that that was, in my view becoming. Erik Galama 19:54 Hmm. George 19:59 More upfront coming up more that time already. Erik Galama 20:06 OK. George 20:06 Is what? What? What story of that is because it was before I went to university. But before I went to university, and that's for sure. We lived in Ottawa still at that time and. They're going to triplex. And inside us moved in Inuit people that they were locating people. Yeah, at that time also, there's been very, very unfair because they cannot at all adapt to society for the very mean and very tough on them. And that's that was before I was able to go to university. But that sort of started coming through little more university as well-being aware of those kind of things and other people were more aware of that as well. So for me, I think I was probably more. Noticeable than other things that people talk about. Erik Galama 20:48 Alright, so you so you say like the main progressing that was noticeable appeal. Don't try to talk about be like how I Native Americans were treated at the time? George 21:01 Yeah, that's what I was really starting to come out or more and more that and now it's really out everywhere there. That time I notices that are coming out, I would aware of it that I'm already the schools and stuff like that so. Erik Galama 21:06 Hmm. Hmm. George 21:13 It's like to me that was. An injustice in society. Something had to be fixed at that moment. Erik Galama 21:19 That actually started to leads into actual one and or sort of answers. So next follow-up was. So what's what like forms of injustice were common in the in Canadian society at the time? George 21:34 What was it that in in the first people that was an injustice that a lot of way? Erik Galama 21:34 So. George 21:40 Uh. Was there anything else? Erik Galama 21:44 Yeah, like, would you say there was any, like, racial industrious. So towards African Americans? Or are also Asians. Was there like injustice towards those groups? George 21:56 I don't think there. There would have been some, yes, but not large amount, but not like we're hearing about nowadays. Sometimes I think Canada in that time United States was very bad, but Canada was nothing like what I notice, added states at that time. Erik Galama 22:04 So. M. George 22:15 Told them more, got along better, right? Erik Galama 22:15 Uh. George 22:23 I would say United States was really bad, but in Canada it was not as bad. Wouldn't be the way it was, but it wasn't really bad. Erik Galama 22:23 Yeah. So you would say it wasn't perfect, like there was some injustice, but it wasn't as common or as prevalent as it was in the United States. George 22:41 Oh, no, wait. No way at all, no. Erik Galama 22:43 No. OK. George 22:44 No. Erik Galama 22:46 I and also so how did you feel about the political system of Canada, the democracy that we have? Did you see that as fair and they represent the resistant rights? And needs. George 23:02 No. Erik Galama 23:05 So you elaborate on this, so I I was not sure what Prime Minister was at the times. George 23:14 Not sure exactly what that time either, but. Structure the break back to that time at the politics at that time and the. Erik Galama 23:17 But. George 23:22 Means. I don't think it was much different than it is now. I get politician to make promises. They break promises, and sometimes people get a little more annoyed than other times. Erik Galama 23:25 This. George 23:35 But I don't think it was anything really radically different at that time. Maybe. Erik Galama 23:35 OK. George 23:41 Of course it made a little more respect for each other in the political world, but. I don't know if that's where the problem too is in the old days there wasn't that much. News coverage. Of that kind of thing as yours now, now everything gets put on Internet and stuff like that on Facebook and Twitter and whatever you have those days, which is really on TV and newspaper, so doesn't mean that we're hearing everything going on like this. What the few tools. Would decide what to make public, available for people. Nowadays it's a whole other world, right? And we applied our world to those days. Maybe they're the same. I don't know. Or maybe they are different. Erik Galama 24:22 No. So would you say that there is like less political polarization compared to today? At in the 70s. George 24:40 I don't know. I can't really say. I almost want to say no, but. Not sure if that's a fair answer or not. Erik Galama 24:47 Alright. Uh, yeah. you also mentioned, too that news and stuff was. You will get it on. You would just be the TV. You get it? How much did you think? Like the TV played a part in, like which political parties, like the view of political parties to general public? George 25:11 Which is. You got the TV. You got the radio and got the newspapers, right. And maybe some magazines. And that was really the only source of. Erik Galama 25:17 Hmm. George 25:20 Really information. Unless you were lucky enough to you, that meet these people are going to Parliament and listen to people in Parliament. I think the main form really was either. TV or radio? Not so much newspaper. Erik Galama 25:36 OK. George 25:37 Radio at that time because you had a good radio station. Was not like modern radio station, but it was more. It's like an all news station, but. It was more like through news and in-depth reporting and stuff like that, and they would always have, you know, politics and stuff like that and interview them on on that station. So that that was good. So you can really get at least from the (illegible) peoples point of view what they're thinking about. Erik Galama 25:52 Hmm. Alright. Um. So so let's little bit is so the last. Sorry, I lost the main question. Is going to be mainly talking about the free love move, but but also along with. Changes in like gender, relationship and. Ideology. So the main question here is cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill and legalization of abortion and. The dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relationships and dating practices in the early 1970s. How much would you agree with that statement? George 26:52 Close from the 1970s right to the OT, but I would say that the other was, yeah, influence it for sure. Erik Galama 26:55 Yeah. So would you say that? What, like I, was those three things I mentioned. So was the birth control pills, the legalization of abortion, and the increased prevalence of free love ideology. I was just three things. What would you say most change the. But like dating practices at the time. George 27:26 I think they all relate. We've got that right. We think about the first controlled and even get abortions and. Erik Galama 27:28 Hmm. George 27:32 Yeah, it's, it's it's. I think they're all the same. I think I'll just relate to each other. Well, one cause it together they should. So they just go like a unison. There not. There not like one and another another. Like this. Sort of. They roll together almost. Erik Galama 27:48 All right. the follow-up to that to is so. Um, how? As you can describe how did dating look like on campus? George 28:02 There really wasn't there that much about. I mean that's that's seen teachers and students dating and making out in the cafeteria and stuff with. That's that's that's that's a fact. That's not a joke, that's a fact. I'm. You know other people, they, they they dated and sometimes they would have lived together and stuff like that. You had more than maybe in years prior to that. So it was a little more. Openness about that kind of. Erik Galama 28:31 OK. Um. Start at so you say it be more open to previous years. Crooked. George 28:42 I'm sorry. Say again. Erik Galama 28:42 Uh, you would say it would be more open compared to previous years. Yep. George 28:46 Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Erik Galama 28:48 Would you say it became less open as the years like in later years? George 28:55 I would say no, no, it would just became more accepted. Right. So it wouldn't more it wouldn't as in your faces, it was at that time it just. Erik Galama 29:04 Hmm. George 29:05 Or part of a society. This is more accepted nowadays. Erik Galama 29:07 OK. Um nursing on tight is how did your generation view family and marriage? So how common was it for people to want to start a family? George 29:27 I think that was part of the norm, right? It wasn't. And people are married. They want to get married. They were there. Some people that were just wanted to live together, but marriage was still an institution at that time. People saw that and they went for like a normal weddings and stuff. And most of them want to children as well. Yeah, so. So that time at all think that had. I think nowadays I sort of breaking down where should say breaking up where. Yeah you have marriage but the the wedding itself is not as important as you used to be and a lot simpler and. Maybe more practical or more meaning collectively that way in then large, expensive weddings. Erik Galama 30:08 OK. Um. So you would say be it was still essentially the same like level compared to previous generations where people still wanted to buy the same appeal. Also want to get married and start families. George 30:26 Yeah, me maybe a little bit less, but I don't think it had done. I would say it was significantly less. Erik Galama 30:31 OK. And then the final section, yeah, if you don't want talk about, we don't have to. It's talks about sexual harassment and or sexual sexuality and also sexual harassment. That if you want to talk about, we can if you don't want to, you don't have to. George 30:51 Pass that one. You're gonna do there. You don't want her to pass it. Erik Galama 30:55 Alright. Alright, person, if you don't wanna do it, I'm fine that. And then I think that is all the questions. So that is I'm gonna stop the recording. George 31:08 Yeah. Erik Galama 31:09 And that's gonna be the end. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource G. George (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial bout University of Ottawa during the end of the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Dating Gender Generational Differences Leisure Marriage Race Sexuality Social Justice University of Ottawa Person An individual. Birth Date 1950 Birthplace Toronto, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Western University, Western University, Degree BA Career professional Occupation Physiotherapist Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilkinson, Dave Type The nature or genre of the resource person Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mokhtare Zadeh, Tara Location The location of the interview Toronto, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:6.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'm testing it right now and it doesn't seem the echo is affecting it. 0:0:6.470 --> 0:0:8.20
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So, OK, there we go. 0:3:19.180 --> 0:3:22.750
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So I'll start the recording process now. 0:3:29.880 --> 0:3:30.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:3:30.980 --> 0:3:36.880
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll begin with the first section, which is impact of popular culture. 0:3:37.810 --> 0:3:48.990
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music in a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:3:50.300 --> 0:3:57.550
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We want to better understand how students relate together with popular culture. 0:3:57.980 --> 0:4:3.320
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. 0:4:3.690 --> 0:4:8.970
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How was your leisure time structured, or what did students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:4:11.740 --> 0:4:13.30
Dave
We weren't on our cell phones. 0:4:16.820 --> 0:4:17.310
Dave
Golly. 0:4:20.200 --> 0:4:21.310
Dave
I've umm. 0:4:22.330 --> 0:4:26.40
Dave
I had a car so I did and it kept me pretty poor. 0:4:26.270 --> 0:4:28.540
Dave
You either had a car or you could have a social life. 0:4:28.630 --> 0:4:29.420
Dave
I picked a car. 0:4:31.250 --> 0:4:31.780
Dave
I didn't. 0:4:31.870 --> 0:4:36.910
Dave
I didn't go out a lot so I I I I didn't live on campus. 0:4:36.920 --> 0:4:37.940
Dave
I lived off campus. 0:4:37.950 --> 0:4:41.460
Dave
My my first degree, but there I didn't. 0:4:44.90 --> 0:4:47.60
Dave
I meet a lot of people there. 0:4:47.70 --> 0:4:47.320
Dave
I'm. 0:4:47.330 --> 0:4:58.880
Dave
I'm not that at that time wasn't really going or Calgarian, so I don't think I I didn't go and hang out to to any of the bars or whatever busy studying too. 0:4:58.890 --> 0:4:59.60
Dave
A lot. 0:4:59.700 --> 0:5:2.230
Dave
Umm and I go home on. 0:5:2.320 --> 0:5:6.60
Dave
So I lived in Toronto at the time, so I I'd go home from London to Toronto. 0:5:8.40 --> 0:5:11.140
Dave
Many weekends, I think at that time I had a girlfriend. 0:5:12.980 --> 0:5:15.470
Dave
So any of the social stuff I did was probably in Toronto. 0:5:18.510 --> 0:5:19.280
Dave
I didn't really. 0:5:19.290 --> 0:5:26.880
Dave
So I lived off campus, so I didn't do a lot of on campus stuff and I didn't really go out and hang out a lot off campus. 0:5:27.570 --> 0:5:28.280
Dave
This, I said. 0:5:28.520 --> 0:5:29.970
Dave
If you had a car, you were poor. 0:5:31.940 --> 0:5:32.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:5:31.680 --> 0:5:37.660
Dave
I put myself through university mostly so it was whatever my summer job gave me in terms of money. 0:5:37.670 --> 0:5:41.440
Dave
That's what I lived on, so it was pretty, pretty Spartan. 0:5:42.880 --> 0:5:52.900
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I know you said that you didn't spend much time on campus, but what were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus that you are aware of? 0:5:54.180 --> 0:5:58.780
Dave
It was a every campus has a bar pub, so I'd go there a bit. 0:6:1.260 --> 0:6:2.410
Dave
Let's say I don't really think. 0:6:2.420 --> 0:6:4.350
Dave
I mean, there'd be football games. 0:6:4.360 --> 0:6:10.240
Dave
You know the the the people go to umm, you really hang out that much? 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:14.310
Dave
Umm I I hadn't met that many people. 0:6:14.540 --> 0:6:15.200
Dave
Men or women? 0:6:19.30 --> 0:6:21.870
Dave
Yeah, I don't really didn't really do that much on campus, to be honest. 0:6:23.360 --> 0:6:23.940
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:6:23.980 --> 0:6:27.360
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:6:28.640 --> 0:6:29.150
Dave
They had. 0:6:29.900 --> 0:6:33.50
Dave
Yeah, there was a concert venue off campus. 0:6:33.250 --> 0:6:39.510
Dave
A few shows dating with Murray McLaughlin was one vice Canadian folk singer. 0:6:40.160 --> 0:6:44.560
Dave
A few of those, but again, I'm I didn't spend a lot of money on that. 0:6:44.570 --> 0:6:45.880
Dave
So a few things. 0:6:46.670 --> 0:6:51.590
Dave
Mostly it'd be like a, a, a concert or something like that rock concert. 0:6:53.110 --> 0:6:55.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'll be skipping the next question. 0:6:56.70 --> 0:7:3.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the original question after that is did anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:7:3.530 --> 0:7:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
But since Western isn't a bilingual institution, I'll change that question. 0:7:8.210 --> 0:7:16.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did anglophones and basically anyone else, whether it was like international students or anything, did they date each other in the 1970s? 0:7:17.690 --> 0:7:32.690
Dave
Album I I think so and back then it was a the university was a lot more white and Western is a is is or has been probably still is known as a fairly well off university. 0:7:32.700 --> 0:7:39.600
Dave
They the the women on campus, usually we're pretty from from from some money so. 0:7:41.910 --> 0:7:50.990
Dave
But I I don't think there was much in the way of uh, you know, mixed cultures or races, but I don't think anybody thought much of it. 0:7:51.0 --> 0:7:55.900
Dave
Like if you you just you hung out with these people in class or you date them. 0:7:55.910 --> 0:7:58.140
Dave
I don't think there's any issue that I don't think it wasn't. 0:7:58.150 --> 0:8:0.730
Dave
It wasn't big or or small or anything like it was just something. 0:8:0.740 --> 0:8:4.680
Dave
Ohh well, you know you're you're dating, you know, black girl, brown girl or whatever. 0:8:4.690 --> 0:8:6.50
Dave
I don't only get ever matter to anybody. 0:8:7.40 --> 0:8:8.150
Dave
You have to remember, was the. 0:8:8.310 --> 0:8:9.490
Dave
That was the early 70s. 0:8:9.500 --> 0:8:20.610
Dave
So when I did my physics degree and and things were pretty like Toronto was still pretty white back then, it wasn't that there was a lot of other cultures and so on. 0:8:20.620 --> 0:8:22.490
Dave
It wasn't that we didn't know about them. 0:8:22.500 --> 0:8:23.570
Dave
It just wasn't that common. 0:8:23.580 --> 0:8:26.980
Dave
So Western was kind of a microcosm of that. 0:8:27.60 --> 0:8:31.440
Dave
So there there wasn't a lot of different cultures and that was. 0:8:33.160 --> 0:8:35.70
Dave
50 years ago so. 0:8:34.950 --> 0:8:35.90
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You. 0:8:37.600 --> 0:8:43.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside the classroom. 0:8:44.80 --> 0:8:48.410
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How would you describe the party culture on campus during the 1970s? 0:8:52.100 --> 0:9:0.310
Dave
Well, by the time my, my second degree I I started I started 1979, I graduated 92. 0:9:1.120 --> 0:9:7.290
Dave
Umm, there was a lot, a lot more party atmosphere than I think that much later. 0:9:8.20 --> 0:9:14.760
Dave
But again, I I lived off campus in my PhD degree or my my physiotherapy degree. 0:9:14.770 --> 0:9:17.470
Dave
I was married at the time and my first daughter. 0:9:17.480 --> 0:9:23.480
Dave
Your Matt's mom was two weeks old when I first started. 0:9:24.100 --> 0:9:31.600
Dave
Umm my physiotherapy degree, so there wasn't a lot of social life that I kind of participated in. 0:9:33.340 --> 0:9:39.870
Dave
I think most of a lot of my classmates, it was a professional degree, so a lot of my classmates, we got to know each other, we hung out. 0:9:39.880 --> 0:9:44.360
Dave
We had a lot of class parties, umm and love love. 0:9:44.370 --> 0:9:49.740
Dave
The kids would go to off campus to some of the bars and stuff, so I think that was fairly common all through the 70s. 0:9:52.930 --> 0:9:56.250
Dave
I mean, there's only so much on campus, and you're gonna do most of the social life. 0:9:56.300 --> 0:10:0.740
Dave
You went off, grabbed a bus with your buddies or whatever when off campus. 0:10:3.60 --> 0:10:7.0
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:13.850
Dave
Yeah, it's a. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.930
Dave
It's a while ago I I don't. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:17.950
Dave
It wasn't umm. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:22.290
Dave
I don't think it's a big thing. 0:10:22.300 --> 0:10:23.800
Dave
I mean, it wasn't something we talked about. 0:10:24.900 --> 0:10:28.110
Dave
You knew what was going on, but I don't think it was. 0:10:28.340 --> 0:10:36.370
Dave
I don't recall it being a big topic of conversation or or, you know, getting together and having, you know, heated conversations about whether right or wrong. 0:10:36.380 --> 0:10:37.560
Dave
I would or whatever. Umm. 0:10:38.430 --> 0:10:42.100
Dave
I I at that like and by the by the late 70s. 0:10:42.110 --> 0:10:43.130
Dave
I don't think it was a. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.950
Dave
Not really a topic of conversation at all, and it wasn't it. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.50
Dave
It was South of the border, so it wasn't as much our problem as it was. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.50
Dave
I've had friends from high school who went. 0:10:55.620 --> 0:10:58.820
Dave
Listed in the states, but it wasn't really our problem. 0:10:58.830 --> 0:11:1.650
Dave
I don't think was a lot of conversation about it. 0:11:2.280 --> 0:11:4.570
Dave
The way probably was in the state. 0:11:6.110 --> 0:11:12.250
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so rock'n'roll artist in the 1960s have promoted various forms of protest. 0:11:12.590 --> 0:11:17.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just some sort of pop form of popular music? 0:11:20.560 --> 0:11:24.580
Dave
My folks are pretty straight at least, so they there was. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.310
Dave
I thought there was a little bit of rebellion or dollars. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:28.930
Dave
They weren't awful, but they were. 0:11:29.80 --> 0:11:33.110
Dave
Mom and Dad were straight down the line, so yes, I would say they were. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.150
Dave
They would consider it a bit rebellious, uh? 0:11:39.620 --> 0:11:42.230
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so some sorry. 0:11:40.670 --> 0:11:45.640
Dave
That dad dad used to joke that they were there to be some music on the radio. 0:11:45.650 --> 0:11:48.200
Dave
He he'd say those guys aren't gonna finish at the same time. 0:11:48.210 --> 0:11:50.650
Dave
Are they all the positions is there? 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:54.110
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:11:52.370 --> 0:11:54.380
Dave
Sorry, yeah, didn't much show. 0:11:57.50 --> 0:12:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs to what extent to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 0:12:10.930 --> 0:12:11.330
Dave
It wasn't. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.790
Dave
It wasn't a big thing. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.580
Dave
I mean it it there are kids are kids. 0:12:19.170 --> 0:12:22.160
Dave
If you wanted pot, you could you always do somebody. 0:12:22.170 --> 0:12:22.800
Dave
You could get it. 0:12:22.810 --> 0:12:24.170
Dave
It was still illegal then. Obviously. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:26.170
Dave
Umm yeah. 0:12:26.900 --> 0:12:28.190
Dave
I I don't think. 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:31.330
Dave
I don't know. 0:12:31.340 --> 0:12:33.120
Dave
There's a lot of regular outside of part of. 0:12:33.130 --> 0:12:34.770
Dave
There's a lot of recreational drug use. 0:12:34.810 --> 0:12:36.370
Dave
And even cocaine was not. 0:12:38.420 --> 0:12:41.790
Dave
Probably by the 80s or 90s, cocaine became more calm. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.140
Dave
And but I don't think, umm, I didn't know anybody. 0:12:45.150 --> 0:12:45.520
Dave
Who? 0:12:45.590 --> 0:12:47.240
Dave
Who knew anybody kind of thing? 0:12:47.250 --> 0:12:47.480
Dave
Who? 0:12:47.490 --> 0:12:48.60
Dave
Who used it? 0:12:48.70 --> 0:12:48.880
Dave
Or or or or. 0:12:48.890 --> 0:12:49.800
Dave
No, but I mean it was. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:55.520
Dave
Was around I'm sure, but I think that the most common thing would have been marijuana. 0:12:55.530 --> 0:12:57.450
Dave
But again, you had to. 0:12:57.700 --> 0:12:59.650
Dave
You had to work hard to get it and. 0:13:1.640 --> 0:13:2.350
Dave
Hello I don't. 0:13:4.730 --> 0:13:8.190
Dave
So I'm aware of not none of my friends or classmates really used it a lot. 0:13:8.920 --> 0:13:13.500
Dave
If anything was marijuana, I don't think anybody I knew used anything else. 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:15.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Here. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the next question is optional, but I'll ask it anyways. 0:13:18.900 --> 0:13:21.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You could choose to answer it or not. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:27.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So from the 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:13:32.450 --> 0:13:32.700
Dave
Who? 0:13:32.900 --> 0:13:35.50
Dave
I you know, I don't, I don't think so. 0:13:35.60 --> 0:13:39.870
Dave
I think I may be naive here, but I I think you're at on campus. 0:13:40.270 --> 0:13:46.780
Dave
You have why should have a little bit more money to maybe other campuses, but I I I I don't think there was a really a focus on that. 0:13:46.790 --> 0:13:52.700
Dave
I think you kids are kids, obviously, but I don't think there was a lot of tripping went on. 0:13:52.710 --> 0:13:55.800
Dave
I mean, you had to still show up for class and not fail out and so on. 0:13:56.130 --> 0:13:56.540
Dave
So I don't. 0:13:58.890 --> 0:14:1.290
Dave
I don't think at at at Western. 0:14:1.300 --> 0:14:5.980
Dave
I don't think there's a big thing at all, and certainly nothing that I heard. 0:14:6.250 --> 0:14:10.40
Dave
I mean, I was always something, I guess, but it wasn't really common at all. 0:14:10.470 --> 0:14:13.940
Dave
And I again, they were harder to come by even than than marijuana. 0:14:13.980 --> 0:14:14.440
Dave
So. 0:14:14.650 --> 0:14:18.750
Dave
So I don't think it was a big thing for me on on Western's campus. 0:14:20.250 --> 0:14:20.960
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:14:21.30 --> 0:14:25.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll be moving on to next section, which is about the female experience. 0:14:26.730 --> 0:14:31.720
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave feminism. 0:14:32.210 --> 0:14:38.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the night in the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:14:39.250 --> 0:14:45.160
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Universe University campus during the early 1970s? 0:14:47.0 --> 0:14:47.890
Dave
I would say so. 0:14:47.900 --> 0:14:49.940
Dave
I think it was it. 0:14:50.100 --> 0:14:56.480
Dave
Yeah, there was a lot of assuming we can do what we want to kind of thing, I mean. 0:14:58.610 --> 0:15:3.660
Dave
I I think that was the the the in the the heat of it back then. 0:15:3.670 --> 0:15:14.20
Dave
I mean, women were very conscious of doing what they wanted as they wanted, looking out for themselves, career, sex, as they wanted to, relationships as they wanted to. 0:15:14.30 --> 0:15:16.20
Dave
I think that was huge back then. 0:15:16.30 --> 0:15:20.90
Dave
I it wasn't something you to me. 0:15:20.100 --> 0:15:21.980
Dave
It wasn't a big thing, was kind of like, you know, OK. 0:15:22.20 --> 0:15:27.160
Dave
Ohh of course you know and I think a lot of it was that it wasn't like people were. 0:15:27.450 --> 0:15:30.960
Dave
I don't remember a protester or or things like that. 0:15:31.30 --> 0:15:36.890
Dave
On a cap, women on campus protesting stuff like that, which is kind of, we're just going to do like, let's get it done kind of thing. 0:15:36.990 --> 0:15:37.580
Dave
It wasn't. 0:15:37.890 --> 0:15:38.760
Dave
It wasn't really. 0:15:39.670 --> 0:15:40.410
Dave
There was a lot of. 0:15:41.150 --> 0:15:42.870
Dave
I'm sad. 0:15:43.450 --> 0:15:46.440
Dave
Social action about which is something like you kind of went. 0:15:46.450 --> 0:15:46.800
Dave
Yeah, OK. 0:15:46.810 --> 0:15:47.570
Dave
This makes sense. 0:15:47.580 --> 0:15:48.870
Dave
At least that's my perception of it. 0:15:49.900 --> 0:15:56.570
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so in your own words, what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? 0:15:59.30 --> 0:15:59.700
Dave
Jeez, I don't know. 0:16:5.820 --> 0:16:11.900
Dave
I I guess just equality like the do do. 0:16:11.910 --> 0:16:16.990
Dave
There's no particular roles that do what you want it to. 0:16:17.660 --> 0:16:20.110
Dave
I it wasn't to me. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:29.110
Dave
It wasn't about and activism or or protesting or whatever I think was just about, well, yeah, just do what? 0:16:29.290 --> 0:16:30.30
Dave
What's right? 0:16:30.40 --> 0:16:30.680
Dave
You know what I mean? 0:16:30.690 --> 0:16:31.780
Dave
I it wasn't. 0:16:31.850 --> 0:16:39.200
Dave
I don't think it was a something to galvanized people to to get together and protest or you know, whatever. 0:16:39.210 --> 0:16:40.150
Dave
I think it was just kinda. 0:16:40.460 --> 0:16:43.220
Dave
Yeah, that's just this is this is right, let's just move on. 0:16:45.260 --> 0:16:49.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:16:50.180 --> 0:16:56.820
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classroom or at social events compared to male students? 0:17:3.570 --> 0:17:4.60
Dave
Yeah, I know. 0:17:4.70 --> 0:17:7.430
Dave
We like, I think roles were still like. 0:17:11.100 --> 0:17:11.440
Dave
You're. 0:17:13.820 --> 0:17:14.220
Dave
Your. 0:17:15.740 --> 0:17:19.160
Dave
Dating and hanging out, it was like a A I don't think. 0:17:22.140 --> 0:17:23.500
Dave
I mean a role. 0:17:23.510 --> 0:17:27.590
Dave
I don't know if you had classmates who were male, female. 0:17:27.660 --> 0:17:28.490
Dave
Have you hung out? 0:17:28.980 --> 0:17:31.680
Dave
We'd, we'd laugh and joke and and study. 0:17:37.420 --> 0:17:38.190
Dave
OK, this thing. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:39.780
Dave
Sorry, my phones ringing here. 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:40.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That's OK. 0:17:42.300 --> 0:17:42.660
Dave
I can't even. 0:17:46.930 --> 0:17:47.500
Dave
So I don't. 0:17:49.650 --> 0:17:50.970
Dave
Like I don't, it's just. 0:17:54.340 --> 0:17:55.150
Dave
There wasn't a blur. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.60
Dave
I I don't know like it was just you. 0:17:59.370 --> 0:18:0.830
Dave
Guys hang out with girls like. 0:18:0.840 --> 0:18:3.170
Dave
Yeah, because they were girls and and and vice versa. 0:18:3.180 --> 0:18:6.940
Dave
Like it wasn't a, it wasn't kind of a confusion or a wondering about that. 0:18:7.90 --> 0:18:9.390
Dave
It was just kind of, you know, does that make sense? 0:18:10.650 --> 0:18:11.980
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
I suppose, yeah. 0:18:12.390 --> 0:18:17.220
0:20:59.170 --> 0:21:6.450
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So in the 1970s, where their programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted. 0:21:12.590 --> 0:21:12.800
Dave
I'm. 0:21:16.0 --> 0:21:18.70
Dave
I don't, I don't think so. 0:21:18.530 --> 0:21:20.0
Dave
I'm. I never. 0:21:20.90 --> 0:21:25.140
Dave
I didn't join many of those things, so I don't draw a lot of first time knowledge. 0:21:25.150 --> 0:21:25.980
Dave
I don't think there was any. 0:21:28.150 --> 0:21:33.940
Dave
I think, yeah, nothing that I can think are really any any discrimination that way. 0:21:33.950 --> 0:21:34.500
Dave
Any difference? 0:21:36.660 --> 0:21:36.850
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:21:37.890 --> 0:21:46.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
In the sense of departments, I suppose it's meaning like the Steins Department or alike engineering, where they less present in that. 0:21:45.750 --> 0:21:48.580
Dave
Ohh, OK Ohh OK, sorry I misunderstood. 0:21:48.590 --> 0:21:48.920
Dave
Yeah. 0:21:48.930 --> 0:21:54.810
Dave
Well, certainly engineering was, you know, was a guys hang out all the stuff they did. 0:21:54.820 --> 0:21:58.160
Dave
There were very few women in engineering. 0:21:58.390 --> 0:22:7.0
Dave
More in science, my that's we have a my class in in, umm physiotherapy. 0:22:7.200 --> 0:22:7.840
Dave
It was. 0:22:7.990 --> 0:22:11.720
Dave
It was thirty students and 25 are women, so that was. 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:17.560
Dave
But I think that kind of reflected more sort of what society expected people to do. 0:22:17.620 --> 0:22:27.650
Dave
But the I think that was part of it, that women didn't gravitate into things like engineering and technology math, that sort of thing. Umm. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:27.910
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:22:29.590 --> 0:22:35.280
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll move on to next bit, which is about ideology and generational differences. 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:44.430
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're a generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:52.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.660
Dave
I don't think there was a lot of. 0:23:1.160 --> 0:23:4.680
Dave
Yeah, sort of social action around that. 0:23:4.690 --> 0:23:9.780
Dave
I I think we, uh, something that you knew about, but it wasn't. 0:23:9.790 --> 0:23:10.570
Dave
There wasn't a whole lot of. 0:23:13.190 --> 0:23:16.350
Dave
Activity around that like I think we were aware of it, but there wasn't. 0:23:16.390 --> 0:23:20.0
Dave
It wasn't something that we it wasn't protests and and things like that. 0:23:20.10 --> 0:23:23.770
Dave
I mean, umm, universities are a different culture. 0:23:23.780 --> 0:23:30.330
Dave
It's kind of a little microcosm of the the world in there, but I don't think I recall anything along those lines. 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:39.660
Dave
Umm, any kind of counterculture kind of extra interest the. 0:23:42.290 --> 0:23:44.670
Dave
Maybe I I I just can't think of. 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:52.790
Dave
Like aside from from different faculties and so on, but I I don't think there's any kind of interest in that kind of stuff at all. 0:23:52.850 --> 0:23:53.710
Dave
Not that I'm aware of. 0:23:55.260 --> 0:24:3.350
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:24:9.160 --> 0:24:11.740
Dave
But to a fair degree, I guess I mean. 0:24:13.630 --> 0:24:19.40
Dave
Umm, gender wasn't a big thing back then, not like it is now. 0:24:19.230 --> 0:24:25.640
Dave
Dating, I think you know, my parents hope that you'd marry. 0:24:26.10 --> 0:24:30.160
Dave
So don't have kids and grandkids so quickly kind of thing. 0:24:30.170 --> 0:24:35.300
Dave
So and and you know you, you'd marry a nice girl or she'd marry a nice guy or whatever. 0:24:36.310 --> 0:24:45.160
Dave
I think by the 70s we were a little more laid back about who we picked as a partner, whatever for dating or for marriage or whatever. 0:24:45.170 --> 0:24:52.50
Dave
So yeah, I would say we were then pushing away from what my parents would expect. 0:24:53.580 --> 0:24:59.230
Dave
Back in my so my parents culture is very like they they it was, it was post war. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:4.910
Dave
So it was busy getting on with things and building a life and so on and all of other stuff. 0:25:4.920 --> 0:25:15.290
Dave
My, my, my parents didn't probably appreciate that as much the so why can't you just find a nice girl and settle down and kind of would be there philosophy, you know? 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:16.620
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:25:17.610 --> 0:25:26.610
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so looking back at the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? 0:25:29.980 --> 0:25:30.140
Dave
Yeah. 0:25:31.770 --> 0:25:32.440
Dave
See, I don't know. 0:25:32.460 --> 0:25:33.750
Dave
I really thought about it. Umm. 0:25:40.130 --> 0:25:42.150
Dave
I'm not really sure. 0:25:44.540 --> 0:25:49.870
Dave
I don't think Ohh most of the people I knew weren't really social activists. 0:25:50.780 --> 0:25:52.290
Dave
Umm, weren't. 0:25:54.430 --> 0:25:55.60
Dave
Concerned. 0:25:56.180 --> 0:25:57.460
Dave
No, that's not the right word. 0:25:57.540 --> 0:25:59.900
Dave
Word weren't active about it. Umm. 0:26:2.20 --> 0:26:2.530
Dave
I don't think we. 0:26:4.390 --> 0:26:7.810
Dave
Like you're you're sort of busy doing your own thing rather than worrying about. 0:26:9.490 --> 0:26:10.560
Dave
Social change. 0:26:10.570 --> 0:26:14.60
Dave
Social action, at least not that I'm aware of. 0:26:14.70 --> 0:26:14.570
Dave
I don't, I don't. 0:26:16.330 --> 0:26:20.130
Dave
In kind of a university environment, that wasn't anything that I particularly saw. 0:26:22.90 --> 0:26:28.380
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:26:30.550 --> 0:26:30.980
Dave
Don't go away. 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.130
Dave
That I'm having trouble remembering. 0:26:38.110 --> 0:26:40.630
Dave
Well, we weren't aware of it, but certainly indigenous. 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.880
Dave
Stuff was we I don't think we were aware of it as much back then as we are now. 0:26:48.40 --> 0:26:56.400
Dave
Umm, some level of of gender women weren't didn't have access to as many things, but we weren't. 0:26:57.310 --> 0:26:59.200
Dave
That wasn't a hot social issue. 0:27:0.380 --> 0:27:1.30
Dave
Umm. 0:27:5.990 --> 0:27:11.460
Dave
And I I can't think of like it wasn't something that I I think I was particularly aware of. 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:19.770
Dave
You know you're busy doing other things, but not really aware of the the wider social issues kind of thing. 0:27:21.740 --> 0:27:22.390
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:27.710
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:27:31.20 --> 0:27:39.900
Dave
I I would say mostly I mean, so I don't think people thought the system was perfect, but I don't think there was much. 0:27:42.450 --> 0:27:43.570
Dave
Unrestored or. 0:27:45.90 --> 0:27:46.350
Dave
Activism around that. 0:27:48.580 --> 0:27:51.240
Dave
I think there was, I think. 0:27:53.900 --> 0:27:54.40
Dave
Yeah. 0:27:54.40 --> 0:27:58.810
Dave
It's just they're the political system has always been a bit corrupt, I suppose. 0:27:58.820 --> 0:28:8.160
Dave
Or open to all kinds of things, but not not as much and not as umm known as as it is today. Umm. 0:28:9.920 --> 0:28:12.300
Dave
So umm, I would say. 0:28:14.450 --> 0:28:17.280
Dave
To some degree, but not we were. 0:28:17.290 --> 0:28:20.510
Dave
We were busy doing other things, I think rather than focused on that stuff. 0:28:22.510 --> 0:28:37.580
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and it's this, the dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and the dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:28:37.890 --> 0:28:39.180
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Do you agree with that statement? 0:28:40.180 --> 0:28:41.80
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:42.820
Dave
Yes, very much so. 0:28:43.40 --> 0:28:43.670
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:44.450 --> 0:28:44.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:28:44.100 --> 0:28:47.100
Dave
Yeah, we did change dating hugely. 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:53.80
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did dating look like on campus during the 1970s? 0:28:54.830 --> 0:28:56.210
Dave
Alright, there was. 0:28:56.220 --> 0:28:57.630
Dave
There was a lot of party, yeah. 0:29:0.220 --> 0:29:3.400
Dave
I I think it was much more. 0:29:7.740 --> 0:29:14.650
Dave
Kids were looking to *** **** more and and did *** **** more than you know a decade before. 0:29:14.820 --> 0:29:20.940
Dave
Certainly my parents generation the the uh birth control, it changed a lot. 0:29:20.950 --> 0:29:22.940
Dave
The contraception changed all that. 0:29:23.850 --> 0:29:29.430
Dave
Which meant you could be more sexual activity that with, you know, worrying about and. 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:33.90
Dave
And it was kind of like, well, this is where it should be kind of thing. 0:29:33.100 --> 0:29:33.820
Dave
You know, it wasn't. 0:29:34.130 --> 0:29:40.210
Dave
You went around celebrate, but it was just kind of, but it made things a lot easier. 0:29:40.220 --> 0:29:42.230
Dave
I think people had a lot more fun. 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.870
Dave
I think a lot more hooking up the one on umm, uh. 0:29:46.730 --> 0:29:47.540
Dave
Personally, not me. 0:29:47.550 --> 0:29:51.620
Dave
I had a girlfriend back in Toronto at the time and my secondary. 0:29:51.630 --> 0:29:56.420
Dave
I was married with a host at a mortgage and A and a two week old baby. 0:29:56.430 --> 0:29:59.940
Dave
So it was a lot of partying there for me, but I think it was. 0:30:0.570 --> 0:30:6.470
Dave
I think it definitely had an impact and made, uh, minute kids. 0:30:6.620 --> 0:30:11.790
Dave
So want to enable to some do more. 0:30:13.620 --> 0:30:17.170
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:30:19.950 --> 0:30:24.400
Dave
I think it was just assumed that you'd eventually get married and have a family. 0:30:24.410 --> 0:30:30.50
Dave
I think that was many of the people I knew that wasn't an overt thing. 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:32.940
Dave
The joke in the 70s was that. 0:30:35.710 --> 0:30:38.860
Dave
At Western lot of women came to get their Mrs degree. 0:30:39.890 --> 0:30:41.280
Dave
They did to find a husband. 0:30:41.610 --> 0:30:44.440
Dave
That was the Western something that way. 0:30:44.450 --> 0:30:46.580
Dave
But I think it was kind of. 0:30:46.790 --> 0:30:51.390
Dave
It was assumed that you'd at some point get married and have a family. 0:30:53.460 --> 0:30:58.460
Dave
That was the only sort of social structure we you you grew up with kind of thing. 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:0.760
Dave
And again at the time. 0:31:2.830 --> 0:31:3.630
Dave
Toronto is fairly. 0:31:4.540 --> 0:31:7.830
Dave
Of pretty, pretty straightforward. 0:31:7.840 --> 0:31:18.990
Dave
We were conservative, I think very conservative in our behavior and there wasn't a lot of I'm non non traditional families and stuff like that. 0:31:19.0 --> 0:31:26.810
Dave
So you came from a background where where you know the mom and dad and you had kids, you know, you had siblings and so on. 0:31:26.820 --> 0:31:33.190
Dave
And that's kind of what you grew up expecting, I think in the 70s, people were looking perhaps to change that later. 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:38.440
Dave
But I think the expectations were, you know, a family house in the suburbs and and whatnot. 0:31:41.40 --> 0:31:41.500
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:51.470
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we've reached the final portion of the interview, but this portion is completely optional and it does come with the disclaimer. 0:31:52.100 --> 0:31:56.810
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the following section is optional and it concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:31:57.300 --> 0:32:4.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:32:5.240 --> 0:32:10.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You may choose to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:32:13.170 --> 0:32:13.390
Dave
Yep. 0:32:14.550 --> 0:32:20.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. 0:32:20.410 --> 0:32:25.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:32:28.420 --> 0:32:33.100
Dave
I'm not not much if I don't think. 0:32:33.950 --> 0:32:38.220
Dave
I don't know that parties were that wild back then. 0:32:40.260 --> 0:32:43.220
Dave
I don't think the universities police that much at all. 0:32:43.230 --> 0:32:46.570
Dave
I mean, if something happened on campus, the police would show up, but it wasn't. 0:32:46.900 --> 0:32:47.450
Dave
Well, I don't know. 0:32:47.460 --> 0:32:49.130
Dave
It was a big thing policing. 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:56.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so our generation is interested in a free love movement. 0:32:56.640 --> 0:33:1.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
What was the perception of premarital sex on the university campus in the 1970s? 0:33:1.670 --> 0:33:4.310
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Was it viewed negatively accepted or even encouraged? 0:33:5.180 --> 0:33:6.620
Dave
Yeah, I would definitely encourage them. 0:33:8.60 --> 0:33:8.640
Dave
It was a. 0:33:13.330 --> 0:33:17.510
Dave
Like the world had opened, the doors are opened and you could do what you wanted to do. 0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:21.70
Dave
And yeah, so it was a very much a, I mean it wasn't. 0:33:23.550 --> 0:33:25.640
Dave
Radical hippies running around the university campus. 0:33:25.650 --> 0:33:28.850
Dave
But I I think that very much umm was. 0:33:31.290 --> 0:33:34.540
Dave
A birth control and and said open sexuality and so on. 0:33:34.550 --> 0:33:38.410
Dave
And and being able to do what you wanted was very much a thing then. 0:33:40.740 --> 0:33:44.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So did members of your parents generation worry about premarital sex? 0:33:45.980 --> 0:33:48.370
Dave
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:50.820
Dave
But only because you didn't. 0:33:50.860 --> 0:33:52.520
Dave
You didn't want to get the. 0:33:53.550 --> 0:34:0.290
Dave
You didn't want your daughter to get pregnant or your son to get her pregnant, so that was, I think, the premarital sex and and. 0:34:0.960 --> 0:34:7.160
Dave
And having a having a child having a pregnancy were were the big thing that. 0:34:7.170 --> 0:34:13.360
Dave
Not sure they were so worried about having sex was the consequences of that if if you happen to get her pregnant kind of thing. 0:34:13.370 --> 0:34:15.100
Dave
So I was very much concerned of theirs. 0:34:16.740 --> 0:34:24.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so that was the last question of the interview and I would love like to thank you so much for your time. Yes. 0:34:24.290 --> 0:34:24.720
Dave
OK. 0:34:24.730 --> 0:34:25.440
Dave
You're welcome. 0:34:25.450 --> 0:34:25.970
Dave
I hope it's helpful. 0:34:27.60 --> 0:34:27.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yes. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilkinson, Dave (Interview) Subject The topic of the resource Testimonial about Western University in London, Ontario during the 1970s, discussing popular culture, the female experience, ideology and generational differences, and sexuality and harassment. Description An account of the resource 2023-11-1 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nu7WhJHAE74?si=ey8dEPYmq50jRiFu" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><br />"Interview with Dave Wikkinson." Life on Campus, November 2, 2023. Video,&nbsp;<br />https://youtu.be/nu7WhJHAE74?si=J1EN0amFbW76fFx7 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 28 minutes, 18 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Activism Dating Drugs Free Love Gender Popular Music Protest Sexuality Vietnam Western University Person An individual. Birth Date 1954 Birthplace Saint-Donat-de-Rimouski Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1973-1977 Degree BA Career administrative Occupation government employee Ethnicity French Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gagnon, Suzanne Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interview Transcript - Life on Campus Interview with Christian Desjardins Date of Interview: Monday, October 23, 2022 Interview over zoom Anneke Tindall: “Hello, How are you today?” Christian Desjardins: “I’m fine thank you.” A.T. “That’s good, um, I’m going to start the recording. I’m going to be recording this interview if that’s okay with you.” C.D.: "Yes.” A.T.: “Alright. Alrighty, so today is our interview, as planned. Do you have any questions for me before we start or anything?” C.D.: “No, not really.” A.T.: “No, not really? Alrighty. So, um, I’ll start out with just like a little bit of general information about the years that you attended Ottawa and what program you were in, and just stuff like that.” C.D.: “Well, I joined the university of Ottawa in the fall of ‘74, my first year was a program in uh communications. And half of the class were on the University of Ottawa campus and the other half were at St. Paul, and I wasn't very thrilled with the program, so I switched to sociology for the second and third year and the bulk of my classes were at Pavillon Tabaret.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “I did one class at, uh, one in the summer, at Carleton university, it was a methods class that was not offered at the university of Ottawa during the summer period, so I had that class at Carleton.” A.T.: “Alright, and when you graduated what type of degree did you receive and what year did you graduate?” C.D.: “I graduated ‘77, so I had a major in sociology and a minor in communications.” A.T.: “Okay. Alrighty, um, so, we have a lot of questions about the counterculture revolution and events that happened in the 1970s. If you feel uncomfortable with any of the questions you don’t have to answer any of them. And we’ll start out with some of the counterculture revolution, so that’s kind of just like the differences in the generations between parents and children, so to what extent did you and your parents have, like, different views on dating and like genders and like anything that was pop culture?” C.D.: “Well, I wouldn’t say it’s pop culture, but one clash I had with my parents was around sexuality. Like they were from the era where you, you have sex when you get married and uh, obviously, I wasn’t so that was a friction point with my parents.” A.T: “Yeah, and so, how did that tie into the life on campus? Were most people on campus pretty open to the sexuality questions and the premarital sex, or were more people kind of hesitant about that?” C.D.: “Quite open. Well like, I was, I don’t know how familiar you are with the campus, but I was at Thompson, and um, in theory, it was one floor for girls, one floor for guys, by October, you could meet anyone anywhere, even in the restrooms, so it was pretty open.” A.T.: “Okay. Yeah, interesting. Um, what would you say the principal injustices around campus were in the 70s?” C.D.: “Nothing’s really striking.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “Nothing that really comes to the top of my mind.” A.T.: “Alright, we’ll move on to the free love movement, that was a big thing in the 70s, there was the legalization of abortion and the birth control pill, um, so just as a background, what was the dating life like on campus when you attended?” C.D.: “Well, the main place to meet was at Le Salon Bleu, it was the scoutout on Saturday evening, that was the palace to meet people, there was also La Chandelle, it was a restaurant on Rideau Street. It was also a good place, there were also a couple of bars, like, uh, I don’t remember the names, but The Hilloff, the Hilloff was a bar, where it was easy to meet other people.” A.T.: “And would you say most people were pretty open with their dating life, um, like, how many friends of yours did you know who were in relationships or who weren’t?” C.D.: “Half and half I would say.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “And the half that wasn’t in a relationship were in between relationships.” A.T.: “Yeah. *laughs* Alrighty, how did your generation look at love and marriage? I know you said they were pretty open about sexuality and stuff, did they have any specific opinions on marriage? Or anything like that?” C.D.: “I would say mostly were heading towards a very straight life. Like if I look at the people I went to school with, they all ended up being married, in the forward years after our graduation, uh, half of them were divorced five years after but uh, still the aim was to go in that direction.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “But it was still pretty straight.” A.T.: “Okay, And did they have any specific views on love in general? Were they hopeless romantics, or were they a little bit more hesitant about love?” C.D.: "No, I would say romantic would be a good qualification.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “They were too young to be cynical.” A.T.: *Laughs* “And were you yourself kind of a hopeless romantic, wanting to get married?” C.D.: “Well I mean, I met my wife at the University of Ottawa, so, obviously, I was looking forward to that direction.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “We met in a program that was taking place where you can work from a different province, and you were studying in a different program, you could be hired to uh, teach French in the junior high [schools] and uh, my wife and I were in two high schools that were in front of each other, like uh, both were in front of each other, she was at St. Pete’s and I was at St. Pat’s.” A.T.: “Okay, Interesting. And so, birth control and abortion were a really big thing in the 70s, um, were there any protests that you remember about birth control and abortion, and did they disrupt the campus life in any sort of way?” C.D.: “Uh, no but, as you can see, I was there starting in ‘74, so it was pretty much a done deal by then.” A.T.: “Yes, yeah. Yes, so there were no really like, um, like after the fact protests? Everyone was kind of just okay with it?” C.D.: “Yeah.” A.T.: “Alrighty. And did you or your friends have clashing views on birth control or abortion, or were you guys all on the same page?” C.D.: “Pretty much on the same page, but mind you, I was more in a group that was on the left side, being in sociology, or communications. But if I had been in law or civil engineering, I would have had people with different views, but in the group I was with, it was pretty much in favour of abortion.” A.T.: “Yeah, alright, and I know you said sexuality was a clash with your parents, did your parents have any views on abortion or birth control that clashed with yours?” C.D.: “Uh, no. It was more the fear that I would make a girl become pregnant, and it would wreck my life. That was more their views.” A.T.: “Yeah, okay. Alright and, um, so I know that in the 70s, we were kind of moving more progressively in including women in more faculties at the university and studies and stuff. Do you remember any distinctions in certain departments or faculties or programs where there were less women than men?” C.D.: “No, not in my program. It was pretty much fifty-fifty.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “Again, it’s also a matter of which program I was in, if I had been in civil engineering, well the ratio would have been different, but in sociology it was pretty much half and half.” A.T.: “Okay. And um, were there any clubs that were specifically non female, or any clubs or any student associations that would be really, distinctly male or female.” C.D.: “Not only that, we wouldn’t have been addressed if there weren’t any women there. *laughs*” A.T.: “*laughs* Alrighty, and did you ever notice any of your female colleagues being treated differently than you, whether that was in class, or um just in the society, did you notice any differences in the way that they were being treated?” C.D.: “The only difference I would say was in the radio station I was working at, uh, CHOR (?), there was a girl, she was the girl doing all the (jets?) programs and she was treated like a princess.” *laughs* “She was very nice and all the guys were going out of their way to please her.” *laughs* A.T.: “Alright, so no like, bad distinctions in between men and women?” C.D.: “Oh, no.” A.T.: “Okay, that’s really good. Yeah, and so um, honestly a lot of the other questions were just about free love and sexuality, but everyone seemed to be pretty open at that time, is what I’m getting from what you’ve told me.” C.D.: “Yes, and if you were to talk to people from ‘68 or ‘69, the views were very different, but by ‘74, it was pretty much over.” A.T.: “Yeah, okay. Um, and did your, so you said you were brought up catholic,” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “Did that have any impacts on how you viewed things or how you went around on campus?” C.D.: “No, not at all.” A.T.: “Not at all?” C.D.: “Part of that generation in Quebec pretty much stopped going to church, around ‘68, ‘69, so it was more the way I was raised, but it had no bearing on the way I was studying.” A.T.: “Okay, cool, and do you have any notable experiences on campus during the years that you were there?” C.D.: “Well, the radio, I spent two years working at the radio station, uh, so it was a place to meet other people, but also, the radio station then wanted to have an FM license at Carleton and the angle we were trying to give was to be multicultural. So we used to take programs with different groups like, Italian, Greek, Lebanese and all that, and each week we would bring those tapes to the cable station in Ottawa and they were broadcasting those tapes, so it was in a direction with people from other ethnic groups and different cultures, and not students from the campus, really from the community as such, and that’s really something that I enjoyed quite a lot and made the experience different. Usually when you’re at university you’re in asylum, you don’t know what’s happening outside of your school, but with that prompt of the radio station, we had experiences with people outside. It was cool.” A.T.: “Yeah, that’s really interesting. And so would you say the campus was multicultural during the time that you went there?” C.D.: “True.” A.T.: “Yes, okay.” C.D.: “True, and the fact that it was bilingual also, people were shifting from one language to the other one, that’s also different from studying elsewhere in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada.” A.T.: “Mhm, yeah. Alright, my last questions are just about safety on campus, were there any safety issues that you saw either for yourself, your friends, or for your fellow colleagues and stuff, were there any safety issues?” C.D.: “No, not at all, but again, when you’re around twenty, you don’t see it at all, so there might have been but I never paid any attention.” A.T.: “Okay. Alrighty, wat did your generation think about premarital sex, I know you said they were very open about sexuality and stuff, was premarital sex something that they were also open about? Or were they more hesitant?” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “Very open? Okay. Alright, so you said you went to McGill after Ottawa.” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T: “What years did you attend McGill?” C.D.: “Uh, ‘77 to ‘79.” A.T.: “Alright, and did you notice any differences between the campus of McGill and the campus of Ottawa?” C.D.: “Totally different, but largely because of the faculty I was in. Going from sociology to business school and at that time I was living with Diane already, it was more like going to work. I was not living on campus like I was in Ottawa, so I had to commute to go to the university. So basically it was like going to work, the only difference was that I was going to school, from nine to five, going back home, doing my homework and going back the next day. So no nothing at night at all, there was no beer, no fun, nothing at all, just straight school.” A.T.: “Yeah.” C.D.: “So it was night and day with the experience in Ottawa, but I wouldn’t say it’s the university, I would say it’s more the program.” A.T.: “Okay. Yeah. And at McGill they were still pretty open about everything with birth control and abortion and stuff?” C.D.: “I would say, the people I was with were more on the right side, knowing that they were coming from a business or commerce background, and in the program, I was pretty much one of the very few that went there straight after a different program. Most people had left school and came back, so they tended to be five to ten years older than I was, so all of that combined to make them a little bit more conservative in their views.” A.T.: “Okay.” C.D.: “So pretty much by that time, everybody was in a relationship or with someone so it was more business, like you know, you go to school, you write something, and at the end of the day you go back to your wife or your husband and uh, there were very few social gatherings or parties. At the university of Ottawa almost every weekend we met up with some friends, but at McGill it wasn’t the case at all. There were maybe one or two parties per year, that was it.” A.T.: “Okay, and you said that you went to College Brébeuf before going to Ottawa.” C.D.: “Yes.” A.T.: “What years did you attend that college and did you see any differences in the campus there?” C.D.: “Uh, ‘72-’74, um, not that different, I would say that the major difference was that it was more of a bourgeois type of environment. In fact, you had two crowds that went, you had either the students that paid their tuition fees, or the students that their parents paid for them. So you had a group of students that were going away on the weekend to ski resorts, or those who were going to get a job on the weekend to pay their tuition fees. So this made the group quite different, people would be within one group or with the other group. So it was more your home and financial situation that made a difference whether than your ethnic origin or your sex.” A.T.: “Okay. And then so, a little bit more on the pop culture side of stuff, with the legalization of birth control, abortion, and more openness towards sexuality, did you notice pop culture being more open to that? Were there more tv shows and music about that kind of stuff?” C.D.: “Well the music was at the forefront of the change, like the lyrics of the songs you had in the early 70s was quite open and that’s almost telling you what to do.” A.T.: “Yeah. And did you notice any differences in tv shows or movies? Were they being more open towards that stuff?” C.D.: “True, like uh, especially in the, either the American films, or the French films, they were much more open in terms of either explicit sex, or more lenient, [...] so that was a big influence in terms of what was presented. You would not have seen that five years before.” A.T.: “Okay. And so those are all the questions I have for you. Um, do you have any questions for me or would you like to add anything else to our interview?” C.D.: “The only impression I have is that the counterculture movement wasn't so prevalent in our lives, it was maybe more something scholars would study, but it was not something we were living on a daily basis.” A.T.: “Okay. Interesting. Well, thank you for meeting with me. It’s been a pleasure to interview you, and then later on, I do believe that our class is going to be creating a survey just for some more general data and once I get the link for that survey, I will send it to you. I am going to create a transcript of our interview and that’s just gonna go on the private database for our class that we’re creating and yeah.” C.D.: “Alright, sounds good.” A.T.: “Alright, thank you so much!” C.D.: “Thank you! Have a good day!” A.T.: “Have a good day.” C.D.: “Thanks, Bye.” A.T.: “Bye.” Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tindall, Anneke Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Desjardins, Christian Location The location of the interview Brossard, Québec Canada Transcription Translation French Translation: Transcription de l'entretien - Life on Campus Entretien avec Christian Desjardins Date de l'entretien : Lundi 23 octobre 2022 Interview sur zoom Anneke Tindall : "Bonjour, comment allez-vous aujourd'hui ?" Christian Desjardins : "Je vais bien, merci." A.T. : "C'est bien, euh, je vais commencer l'enregistrement. Je vais enregistrer cet entretien si vous êtes d'accord." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très bien. Très bien, aujourd'hui c'est notre entretien, comme prévu. Avez-vous des questions à me poser avant de commencer ?" C.D. : "Non, pas vraiment." A.T. : "Non, pas vraiment ? D'accord. Je vais donc commencer par vous donner quelques renseignements généraux sur les années pendant lesquelles vous avez fréquenté Ottawa, le programme auquel vous avez participé et d'autres choses du même genre. C.D. : "Eh bien, je suis entré à l'université d'Ottawa à l'automne 74, et ma première année était un programme de communication. La moitié des cours se déroulait sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa et l'autre moitié à St-Paul, et je n'étais pas très emballé par le programme, alors j'ai changé pour la sociologie pour la deuxième et la troisième année et la majorité de mes cours se déroulaient au Pavillon Tabaret." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "J'ai suivi un cours à, euh, un cours d'été à l'université de Carleton, c'était un cours de méthodologie qui n'était pas offert à l'université d'Ottawa pendant l'été, alors j'ai suivi ce cours à Carleton." A.T. : "D'accord, et quand vous avez obtenu votre diplôme, quel type de diplôme avez-vous reçu et en quelle année ?" C.D. : "J'ai été diplômé en 77, j'avais donc une majeure en sociologie et une mineure en communication." A.T. : "D'accord. Très bien, nous avons beaucoup de questions sur la révolution de la contre-culture et les événements qui se sont produits dans les années 1970. Si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise avec l'une de ces questions, vous n'êtes pas obligé d'y répondre. Nous allons commencer par la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire les différences entre les générations de parents et d'enfants. Dans quelle mesure vos parents et vous aviez-ils des points de vue différents sur les relations amoureuses, les genres et tout ce qui relevait de la culture pop ? C.D. : "Je ne dirais pas que c'est de la culture pop, mais l'un des conflits que j'ai eus avec mes parents concernait la sexualité. Ils étaient de l'époque où l'on avait des relations sexuelles quand on se mariait et, évidemment, ce n'était pas mon cas, donc c'était un point de friction avec mes parents." A.T : "Oui, et donc, comment cela se traduisait-il dans la vie sur le campus ? Est-ce que la plupart des gens sur le campus étaient assez ouverts aux questions de sexualité et aux relations sexuelles avant le mariage, ou est-ce qu'il y avait plus de gens qui hésitaient à ce sujet ?" C.D. : "Très ouverts. J'étais, je ne sais pas si vous connaissez bien le campus, mais j'étais à Thompson, et en théorie, c'était un étage pour les filles, un étage pour les garçons, en octobre, on pouvait rencontrer n'importe qui n'importe où, même dans les toilettes, donc c'était assez ouvert." A.T. : "D'accord. Oui, c'est intéressant. Hum, quelles étaient, selon vous, les principales injustices sur le campus dans les années 70 ?" C.D. : "Rien n'est vraiment frappant." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "Rien qui ne me vienne à l'esprit." A.T. : "Très bien, nous allons passer au mouvement de l'amour libre, c'était une grande chose dans les années 70, il y avait la légalisation de l'avortement et la pilule contraceptive, euh, donc juste pour le contexte, comment était la vie amoureuse sur le campus quand vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, le principal lieu de rencontre était Le Salon Bleu, c'était le scout le samedi soir, c'était le palais pour rencontrer des gens, il y avait aussi La Chandelle, c'était un restaurant sur la rue Rideau. C'était aussi un bon endroit, il y avait aussi quelques bars, comme, euh, je ne me souviens pas des noms, mais le Hilloff, le Hilloff était un bar, où il était facile de rencontrer d'autres personnes." A.T. : "Et diriez-vous que la plupart des gens étaient assez ouverts sur leur vie amoureuse, euh, comme, combien d'amis à vous connaissiez vous qui étaient en couple ou qui ne l'étaient pas ?" C.D. : "Moitié-moitié, je dirais." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Et la moitié qui n'était pas en couple était entre deux relations." A.T. : "Oui. *Très bien, comment votre génération voyait-elle l'amour et le mariage ? Je sais que tu as dit qu'ils étaient assez ouverts sur la sexualité et tout ça, est-ce qu'ils avaient des opinions spécifiques sur le mariage ? Ou quelque chose comme ça ?" C.D. : "Je dirais que la plupart d'entre eux se dirigeaient vers une vie très hétérosexuelle. Si je regarde les gens avec qui je suis allée à l'école, ils ont tous fini par se marier, dans les années qui ont suivi l'obtention de notre diplôme, euh, la moitié d'entre eux ont divorcé cinq ans plus tard mais euh, l'objectif était quand même d'aller dans cette direction." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Mais c'était quand même assez direct." A.T. : "D'accord. Et avaient-ils des opinions particulières sur l'amour en général ? Etaient-ils des romantiques invétérés, ou étaient-ils un peu plus hésitants sur l'amour ?" C.D. : "Non, je dirais que romantique serait une bonne qualification." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Ils étaient trop jeunes pour être cyniques." A.T. : *Rire* "Et vous-même, étiez-vous une sorte de romantique sans espoir, voulant vous marier ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, j'ai rencontré ma femme à l'Université d'Ottawa, donc, évidemment, je me réjouissais de cette orientation." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "Nous nous sommes rencontrés dans le cadre d'un programme qui permettait de travailler dans une autre province et d'être embauché pour enseigner le français dans les écoles secondaires de premier cycle, et ma femme et moi étions dans deux écoles secondaires qui se faisaient face, elle était à St. A.T. : "D'accord, intéressant. Et donc, le contrôle des naissances et l'avortement étaient des sujets très importants dans les années 70, euh, est-ce qu'il y a eu des manifestations dont vous vous souvenez à propos du contrôle des naissances et de l'avortement, et est-ce qu'elles ont perturbé la vie sur le campus d'une manière ou d'une autre ?" C.D. : "Euh, non mais, comme vous pouvez le voir, j'étais là à partir de 1974, donc c'était déjà une affaire réglée." A.T. : "Oui, oui. Oui, donc il n'y a pas eu de protestations après coup ? Tout le monde était d'accord avec ça ?" C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très bien. Et est-ce que vous ou vos amis aviez des opinions divergentes sur le contrôle des naissances ou l'avortement, ou étiez-vous tous sur la même longueur d'onde ?" C.D. : "Plutôt sur la même longueur d'onde, mais attention, j'étais plus dans un groupe qui était à gauche, en sociologie ou en communication. Mais si j'avais été en droit ou en génie civil, j'aurais eu des gens avec des opinions différentes, mais dans le groupe avec lequel j'étais, c'était plutôt en faveur de l'avortement." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord, et je sais que vous avez dit que la sexualité était en conflit avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents avaient des opinions sur l'avortement ou le contrôle des naissances qui étaient en conflit avec les vôtres ?" C.D. : "Euh, non. C'était plutôt la peur que je mette une fille enceinte et que cela détruise ma vie. C'était plus leur point de vue." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord. Je sais que dans les années 70, nous avons progressé dans l'inclusion des femmes dans un plus grand nombre de facultés à l'université, dans les études, etc. Vous souvenez-vous de distinctions dans certains départements, facultés ou programmes où il y avait moins de femmes que d'hommes ?" C.D. : "Non, pas dans mon programme. C'était à peu près moitié-moitié." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "Encore une fois, c'est aussi une question de programme, si j'avais été en génie civil, le ratio aurait été différent, mais en sociologie, c'était plutôt moitié-moitié." A.T. : "D'accord. Et euh, est-ce qu'il y avait des clubs qui étaient spécifiquement non féminins, ou des clubs ou des associations d'étudiants qui étaient vraiment, distinctement masculins ou féminins." C.D. : "Non seulement cela, mais nous n'aurions pas été abordées s'il n'y avait pas eu de femmes. *rires*" A.T. : "*rires* Très bien, et avez-vous remarqué que certaines de vos collègues féminines étaient traitées différemment de vous, que ce soit en classe ou dans la société, avez-vous remarqué des différences dans la façon dont elles étaient traitées ?" C.D. : "La seule différence, je dirais, c'est que dans la station de radio où je travaillais, euh, CHOR ( ?), il y avait une fille, c'était la fille qui faisait tous les programmes (jets ?) et elle était traitée comme une princesse." *rires* "Elle était très gentille et tous les gars faisaient des pieds et des mains pour lui plaire. *rires* A.T. : "D'accord, donc pas de mauvaises distinctions entre les hommes et les femmes ?" C.D. : "Oh, non." A.T. : "D'accord, c'est très bien. Oui, et donc euh, honnêtement beaucoup d'autres questions portaient sur l'amour libre et la sexualité, mais tout le monde semblait être assez ouvert à cette époque, c'est ce que j'ai compris de ce que vous m'avez dit." C.D. : "Oui, et si vous parliez à des gens de 68 ou 69, les points de vue étaient très différents, mais en 74, c'était à peu près fini." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord. Hum, et est-ce que vous, vous avez dit que vous avez été élevé dans la religion catholique," C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Est-ce que cela a eu un impact sur votre façon de voir les choses ou de vous déplacer sur le campus ?" C.D. : "Non, pas du tout." A.T. : "Pas du tout ?" C.D. : "Une partie de cette génération au Québec a pratiquement cessé d'aller à l'église, vers 68, 69, donc c'était plus la façon dont j'ai été élevé, mais cela n'a pas eu d'incidence sur la façon dont j'étudiais." A.T. : "D'accord, cool, et avez-vous des expériences notables sur le campus pendant les années où vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "Eh bien, la radio, j'ai travaillé deux ans à la station de radio, euh, donc c'était un endroit pour rencontrer d'autres personnes, mais aussi, la station de radio voulait alors avoir une licence FM à Carleton et l'angle que nous essayions de donner était d'être multiculturel. Nous avions donc l'habitude d'enregistrer des programmes avec différents groupes comme les Italiens, les Grecs, les Libanais et tout le reste, et chaque semaine, nous apportions ces cassettes à la station câblée d'Ottawa qui les diffusait, ce qui nous permettait de rencontrer des personnes d'autres groupes ethniques et d'autres cultures, et pas seulement des étudiants du campus, mais aussi des membres de la communauté. D'habitude, quand on est à l'université, on est dans un asile, on ne sait pas ce qui se passe en dehors de l'école, mais avec cette station de radio, nous avons eu des expériences avec des gens de l'extérieur. C'était cool." A.T. : "Oui, c'est très intéressant. Et donc, diriez-vous que le campus était multiculturel à l'époque où vous y étiez ?" C.D. : "C'est vrai." A.T. : "Oui, d'accord." C.D. : "C'est vrai, et le fait que c'était bilingue aussi, les gens passaient d'une langue à l'autre, c'est aussi différent d'étudier ailleurs au Québec ou ailleurs au Canada." A.T. : "Mhm, oui. D'accord, mes dernières questions concernent la sécurité sur le campus, y a-t-il eu des problèmes de sécurité que vous avez vus, soit pour vous, soit pour vos amis, soit pour vos collègues, y a-t-il eu des problèmes de sécurité ?" C.D. : "Non, pas du tout, mais encore une fois, quand on a une vingtaine d'années, on ne le voit pas du tout, donc il y en a peut-être eu mais je n'y ai jamais prêté attention." A.T. : "D'accord. Je sais que tu as dit qu'ils étaient très ouverts sur la sexualité et tout ça, est-ce qu'ils étaient aussi ouverts sur le sexe avant le mariage ? Ou étaient-ils plus hésitants ?" C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "Très ouverts ? D'accord. D'accord, donc vous avez dit que vous êtes allé à McGill après Ottawa." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "En quelles années avez-vous étudié à McGill ?" C.D. : "Euh, de 77 à 79." A.T. : "D'accord, et avez-vous remarqué des différences entre le campus de McGill et celui d'Ottawa ?" C.D. : "Totalement différent, mais surtout à cause de la faculté dans laquelle je me trouvais. En passant de la sociologie à l'école de commerce, et à l'époque je vivais déjà avec Diane, c'était plus comme aller au travail. Je ne vivais pas sur le campus comme c'était le cas à Ottawa, et je devais donc faire la navette pour me rendre à l'université. En gros, c'était comme aller travailler, à la seule différence que j'allais à l'école de neuf à cinq heures, que je rentrais chez moi, que je faisais mes devoirs et que j'y retournais le lendemain. Il n'y avait donc rien le soir, pas de bière, pas d'amusement, rien du tout, juste l'école." A.T. : "Oui." C.D. : "C'était donc le jour et la nuit avec l'expérience à Ottawa, mais je ne dirais pas que c'est l'université, je dirais plutôt que c'est le programme." A.T. : "D'accord, oui. Et à McGill, ils étaient encore assez ouverts à propos du contrôle des naissances, de l'avortement, etc. C.D. : "Je dirais que les gens avec qui j'étais étaient plus du bon côté, sachant qu'ils venaient du monde des affaires ou du commerce, et dans le programme, j'étais l'un des rares à y être allé directement après un autre programme. La plupart des gens avaient quitté l'école et y étaient revenus, ils avaient donc tendance à avoir cinq à dix ans de plus que moi, ce qui les rendait un peu plus conservateurs dans leurs opinions." A.T. : "D'accord." C.D. : "À cette époque, tout le monde était en couple ou avec quelqu'un, donc c'était plus professionnel, comme vous savez, vous allez à l'école, vous écrivez quelque chose, et à la fin de la journée vous retournez auprès de votre femme ou de votre mari et euh, il y avait très peu de rencontres sociales ou de fêtes. À l'université d'Ottawa, nous rencontrions des amis presque tous les week-ends, mais à McGill, ce n'était pas du tout le cas. Il y avait peut-être une ou deux fêtes par an, c'est tout". A.T. : "D'accord, et vous avez dit que vous étiez allé au Collège Brébeuf avant d'aller à Ottawa." C.D. : "Oui." A.T. : "En quelles années avez-vous fréquenté ce collège et avez-vous vu des différences dans le campus ?" C.D. : "Euh, 72-74, euh, pas si différent, je dirais que la principale différence était que c'était plus un environnement de type bourgeois. En fait, il y avait deux catégories d'étudiants, soit ceux qui payaient leurs frais de scolarité, soit ceux que leurs parents payaient pour eux. Il y avait donc un groupe d'étudiants qui partaient le week-end dans des stations de ski, ou ceux qui trouvaient un emploi le week-end pour payer leurs frais de scolarité. Le groupe était donc très différent, les gens se retrouvaient dans un groupe ou dans l'autre. C'est donc davantage la situation familiale et financière qui fait la différence que l'origine ethnique ou le sexe." A.T. : "D'accord. En ce qui concerne la culture pop, avec la légalisation du contrôle des naissances, de l'avortement et de l'ouverture à la sexualité, avez-vous remarqué que la culture pop était plus ouverte à ce sujet ? Y avait-il plus d'émissions de télévision et de musique sur ce genre de choses ?" C.D. : "La musique était à l'avant-garde de ce changement, les paroles des chansons du début des années 70 étaient très ouvertes et elles vous disaient presque quoi faire." A.T. : "Oui. Avez-vous remarqué des différences dans les émissions de télévision ou les films ? Étaient-ils plus ouverts à ce genre de choses ?" C.D. : "C'est vrai, comme euh, surtout dans les films américains ou français, ils étaient beaucoup plus ouverts en termes de sexe explicite, ou plus indulgents, [...] donc cela a eu une grande influence en termes de ce qui était présenté. Vous n'auriez pas vu cela cinq ans auparavant". A.T. : "D'accord. Voilà toutes les questions que j'avais à vous poser. Avez-vous d'autres questions à me poser ou souhaitez-vous ajouter quelque chose à notre entretien ?" C.D. : "La seule impression que j'ai, c'est que le mouvement de la contre-culture n'était pas très présent dans nos vies, c'était peut-être plus quelque chose que les universitaires étudiaient, mais ce n'était pas quelque chose que nous vivions au quotidien." A.T. : "D'accord, c'est intéressant. Merci d'avoir accepté de me rencontrer. Ce fut un plaisir de vous interviewer, et plus tard, je crois que notre classe va créer une enquête pour obtenir des données plus générales et dès que j'aurai le lien pour cette enquête, je vous l'enverrai. Je vais créer une transcription de notre entretien et cela ira dans la base de données privée de notre classe que nous sommes en train de créer. C.D. : "D'accord, ça me paraît bien." A.T. : "Très bien, merci beaucoup !" C.D. : "Merci ! Passez une bonne journée !" A.T. : "Bonne journée." C.D. : "Merci, Bye." A.T. : "Bye." Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20.07 minutes Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 20.07 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Desjardins, Christian (entrevue) Francophone Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Muzio, Aila Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Zoom) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Aila : Ok, fantastique ça marche ok, alors le premier, comme, thème ou section qu'on a de cet entretien c'est à propos de la culture populaire, ahem, excusez-moi je suis aussi un peu malade au moment, um, alors la question est quand il y avait moins de appareils, d’appareils électroniques pendant les années, les années soixante-dix. Alors comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisiez-vous et les autres étudiants pour s'amuser? Suzanne : Pour s’amuser? Bien, um j’ai fait partie de l’équipe de ballon ballé… Aila : Uh huh. Suzanne : de l’université, et même ??? (48s) un équipe de hockey mais c’est intramurale… Aila: Hum, hum. Suzanne : et naturellement, on fréquentaient le fameux Salon Bleu qu’on adoraient. C’était l’endroit idéale pour aller danser sur le campus. Aila : Ah! Ok. Suzanne : Le, l’edifice Marchand ??? (1.05) et, uh, c’est ce qu’on faisait dans nos temps libre, ni plus ni moins, ça c’était surtout le weekend. Aila : Oui. Suzanne : Naturellement. Et je faisais du jogging aussi et quand Canal Rideau était uh, uh, uh, disons l’hiver et qu’après on allait patiner sur le Canal Rideau régulièrement, moins 40, uh pas de problème. Aila : Um, cool. Est-ce que uh, les francophones et les anglophones, s’inscrivaient au mêmes course ou plus comme séparés? Suzanne : Bien, dans mon cas, j’ai pris des cours, je parlais pas l’anglais à l’époque car je ??? (1.45) donc je l’ai appris en faite, en résidence, par j’ai vécu quatre ans en résidence et um mes cours est en français uniquement et je prenais un cours de ??? (1.58) en anglais aussi mais c’est en français et aussi en espagnol, la troisième année est uniquement en espagnol, j’ai fait un bac en espagnol. Aila : Hmm. Suzanne : Et j’ai pas, j’ai pas utiliser en anglais en université sauf un cours d’anglais langue seconde. Aila : Et dans les, les clubs, et les équipes de sports, c’est… Suzanne : C’était um, dans l’équipe de ballon ballé et hockey, c’est en français. Aila : Ah ok. Suzanne : À ma connais, oui, puis uh, c’est sur ??? au Salon Bleu, mais là c’était uh les deux langues. Aila : Oh. Suzanne : Mais comme je vous ai dit, j’avais les difficultés avec l’anglais, donc étais immersé à ce moment-là en anglais. Aila : Intéressant. Ok hum quels sont les autres questions alors, que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre de Vietnam? Suzanne : À mon époque, à moins, honnêtement, je ne peux pas me souvenir. Peut-être si j’avais faite partie du conseil étudiant il y aurait eu, mais je n’ai rien vu, à ma connaissance. Pour moi personnellement parce que je n’étais pas très politisée dans ce instant-là, et je ne suis pas aujourd’hui non plus. Et donc, ??? (3.12) Pour moi, personnellement. Aila : Ah, cool ok. Um, dans les années soixante, les années, les artistes de rock et roll ont comme encouragé de diverses formes de, de protestation. Alors, c’est une question un peu plus à propos de vos parents, est-ce qu’ils considéraient le rock et roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme juste la musique? Suzanne : Juste la music. Et j’étais plus jeune à l’époque, naturellement. Aila : Ouais. Suzanne : Mais c’était juste la musique. Et on dansait dans le salon. Aila : Hmm, nous utilisons beaucoup le terme « culture de la fête » um pour, comme, décrire cette époque et faire référence aux activités sociales, alors comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus? Suzanne : Bien, moins à mon époque c’était l’ère de la disco. C’est ça vous entendez par fête, j’imagine la musique c’était l’ère de la disco, et on était en plein la dedans, puis souvent on sortait jeudi, vendredi, samedi, comme j’ai dit à la femme, au fameux Salon Bleu, sur la campus qu’il y avait même les gens de l’extérieur, de l’université Carleton, qui ? (4.36) aussi, sa prenait, il y avait un queue pour entrer là, c’était le « spot ». Aila : Ok, Je pense que j'ai, oh j’ai deux de plus de cette thème. Alors um, certain comme voix de la culture encourager la prise de drogues récréatives, alors est-ce que, savez vous si les drogues récréatives étaient vraiment disponibles sur campus pendant les années soixante-dix ou non? Suzanne : Bien, je présume que, qu’au moins quand j’étais là, honnêtement, non. C’est après, après de eu mon diplôme peut-être on voyait le marijuana, uh la cigarette marijuana, mais c’était pas, comme moi j’étais peut-être pas très évoluer à l’époque mais j’ai pas vu ça de, de ma vie étudiante pendant j’ai été aux études à l’université, c’est après. Aila : Et savez… Et savez-vous des uh, de prise des drogues psychédéliques, si ça, ça se passait beaucoup ou? Suzanne : Je n’ai aucune idée sur la vérité. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Aucune idée. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Psychédéliques ça c’est comme j’imagine des pilules là. Aila : Hum. Non, moi je sais pas vraiment, je sais que c'est une question qu'on a et que ça s'est passé, mais. Suzanne : Ma connais, comme j’ai dit, venons d’un type de place, arrivée à un gros université, c’était uh ça prenait l’évolution puis ??? (6.22) de plus les hommes, je n’ai aucun idée, le réponse est non. Aila : Okay. Alors, la deuxième thème qu’on à pour…, waouh, la deuxième thème c’est comme l’expérience féminine, alors le rôle des femmes, et tout ça. Alors, um, les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, que. À savoir que, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes au début des années mille neuf cent soixante, on cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Alors cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre, um, expérience sur le campus au début des années soixante? Suzanne : Mais j’étais pas là les années soixantes Aila : Ouais, je voulais dire soixante-dix. Suzanne : Um, non c’était n’aperçu pour moi à ce moment-là, cette vague, sur campus pour moi personnellement. Aila : Oui, vous euh, je lis les questions. Alors dans vos mots comme d'après vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada dans cette époque? Suzanne : Ben, d’après moi, um, on voyait beaucoup plus de femmes avoir accès à des cours à l’université, les cours qui étaient pas uh, disons de genre ingénieur, infermière, j’avais des amis qui étaient en des cours de sciences et uh, il y en avait même d’autres dans l’administration. Il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes mais aussi parce que l’université, je crois étaient plus accessibles avec des ??? (8.19) et bourses, d’après moi. Est-ce que ça répond à votre question? Aila : Oui, non, oui. Suzanne : À comparer disons, au, au, au genre ??? (8.29), parce que à l’époque c’était, avant cet époque de ??? et bourses, c’était ??? (8.37) mais après avec les … et bourses, ça était plus, plus commun. Une personne comme moi sera pas à l’université sans les … et bourses. Aila : Alors, dans les années soixante-dix, il y avait, ugh, y avait-t-il des programmes ou bien des département ou clubs de l’université où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptés, comparer à des autres? Suzanne : Um, comme j’ai dit, je pense peut-être dans des programmes axés plus vers, à l’époque, ingénieur, puis tout ça, il y avait peut-être moins de femmes dans ce instant là, ??? (9.19) cinquante ans. Aila : Ouais. Suzanne : Mai moi, j’ai pas vu ça au côté, uh, les arts parce que cet un mélange et il y avait probablement, je ne sais pas, plus de femmes en gimets, je suis pas certaine. Mais je pense dans les sciences pures, et les professions plus um, ingénierie uh, je sais pas trop quoi d’autre l’université offrait à l’époque, peut-être même médicine, je sais pas, je ne veux pas mentionner les choses que j’ai pas les fais étaient plus masculins que féminines. Aila : Les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcés dans les années soixante-dix qu'aujourd'hui, alors, um, en quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait- il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux étudiants masculins dans les salles de class ou bien des événements sociaux? Suzanne : Dans le salle de classe, moi j’ai rien vu de difference à ce niveau là. Mais ce qui est intéressant à souligner peut-être en parenthèses c’est que la résidence Stanton, où j’habitais, c’était seulement des femmes, ah que tel les filles, à cet époque-là, la première année surtout, je crois que c’est ma dernière année en 1977, si je me comprends, le premiers étages étaient les femmes et les derniers étages étaient les hommes. C’était pas mixes. Aila : Ah intéressant! Suzanne : On était séparés. Aila : Huh, cool, ok. Autre grand question, uh, les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu’ils appelaient la révolution de contre-culture, c’est-à-dire que votre génération s’est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Alors, dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu’ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? Suzanne : Comparer à mes parents, c’est un peu un question vaste. Aila : Ouais, comme. Suzanne : Dans mon famille, à l’époque, si là je comprends votre question, je suis la seule qui est aller à l’université, on était cinq enfants, à l’age d’aller à l’université. J’ai deux sœurs qui sont allées plus tard dans leurs vies mais j’étais la seule et ma mère m’a encourager parce que elle avait pas eu cette chance là. Um, mais je pense que je tourne autour de votre question là, je suis pas certains. Aila : Alors est qu'il avait des, non, je sais pas comment je vais dire, Ok, je recommence. Um. Donc Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la sexualité, la famille et les relations amoureuses, étaient, sont ils changés. Suzanne: Oh, uh, oui. Très changé. Aila : Hum, hum. Suzanne : Disons, um, uh, je sais pas si, comme, moi je, ben je étais plus à l’université à l’époque-là mais je me souviens ma mère était toujours … pour ses filles, surtout quand je lui ai dit, l’université était fini, mais quand je lui ai dit que moi et mon conjoint actuel ont aller demeurer ensemble, avant se marier, et c’était quand même en 1978, uh elle ne criait pas sur les toîts des maison. Tu sais, donc uh ça a changer de son point de vu là. Point de vue, uh, sexualité dans un sense et aussi l’autre sense, uh uh, les parents étaient, avaient pas vécu ça. Pêcher, en guillemets, mais elle pensait pas comme ça, mais … Aila : Hmm, ouais. Quelles étaient les formes principales comme d’injustice dans la société canadienne pendant ces années, ou lesquels que vous avez… oui. Suzanne : Tu, tu, tu veut dire comme les femmes importantes dans l’injustice? Aila : Ouais, comme les femmes les plus, que vous voyez le plus. Suzanne : Au point de vue politique, j’ai pas était personne très politiquer donc je ne peux pas nommer quelqu’un principalement. Je sais que dans les années quatre-vingts, uh, ça c’est, c’est sûr ??? (13.56), Monique Bégin jouait une rôle au niveau des femmes au Canada, parce qu’elle était si ministre la santé nationale ??? (14.03) de l’université après. Donc, c’est la seule femme à laquelle je pense, j’étais pas politiser donc… Aila : Et ce, sur comme plus, à l'université d'Ottawa est ce que vous avez vu beaucoup de comme racisme et d'autres choses comme ça ou? Suzanne : Non. Aila : Pas vraiment? Suzanne : Je n’ai rien vu de la sorte. Aila : Ah, fantastique. Suzanne : Et j’avais même une très bonne amie, à moins qui, qu’elle vit à Ottawa qui étais noire et uh, elle étais acceptée par tous le monde, mais il y avait pas beaucoup, le multicul-, la multiculturalisme à l’époque, um, commencer seulement, je crois, parce que j’avais pas beaucoup de gens dans ma classe, dans mes classes, qui étaient uh, de d’autres nationalités. Aila : Donc c’était plutôt des gens comme blanc qui étaient là, mais l’attitude vers les autres personnes était, n'eétait pas mauvaise. Suzanne : Non, oui. Aila : Ok. Suzanne : Mais peut-être dans les autres classes, sciences, il y avait beaucoup plus de gens de d’autres nationalités qui étudiaient je sais pas, mais moi personnellement c’était, pas mal les blancs en général et uh des noms très ordinaires. Aila : Parfait! Ok! Alors les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l’introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l’avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes, et les femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années soixante-dix alors pensez-vous que c'est vrai cette ça phrase ou pas vraiment? Suzanne : J’oublie quand la pilule est venue en effet là, je pense les années soixante, je suis pas certain. Dans tous les cas, um comme je ai dit, on était pas très évoluer. Moi, je n’étais pas en tous cas à l’époque donc uh, je peux pas répondre à cette question de façon intelligente, mais oui on pouvait voir que l’amour s’est changer un peu entre les gars et les filles. Aila : Ok um, alors comment votre génération considérerait-elle comme la famille et le mariage, tout ça, des choses comme ça. Suzanne : Um, ben à cet époque là, je pensais pas à ça de tout. Je veux dire uh … (16 :36) seulement dix-neuf ans. Mais je me disais qu’une jour, oui, je voulais me marier, avoir des enfants et c’est que la chose à faire après avoir obtenu un diplôme, remarque. Et suffisante, c’Est surtout ça qui m’emporter. Ouais. Aila : Alors et à quoi ressembler comme les fréquentations à l'université, comme des choses comme ça? Suzanne : Bien, on a, on allait danser, au Salon bleu, et dans la compagne de beaucoup de gens avec qui on peut avoir du plaisir sans être attacher à uh, un gars en particulier. Aila : Ah, ok. Suzanne : Moi personnellement, dit, je veux pas, ben comment je dirais, je vais pas entrer les détails là-dedans, je vais laisser ma réponse comme ça. Aila : Ok parfait! Ok, alors j'ai une section qui nous reste, mais c'est à propos de la sexualité et le harcèlement. Alors, encore, si vous ne voulez pas répondre aux questions, ne répond pas, mais vous voulez que je continue et je demande des questions, c'est bien. Suzanne : Ça va. Aila : Ok parfait! Ok, aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel, alors dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires ont-elles surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes est-ce. Suzanne : J’ai aucun idée! De mon époque, je n’ai jamais rien entendu de femmes, il y a du en avoir mais j’ai jamais rien entendu de femmes et même de mes amis proches, que ça fait cinquante ans encore qu’on est amis, depuis l’université, d’abord étaient témoins d’agression ou même d’entendu des histoires à propos des agressions sexuelles. Aila : Hmm, alors c’était quelque chose… Suzanne : Non, c’était pas quelque chose qui était um, devant nous. Je me souviens il y avait de sécurité lorsque la fameuse Panda game, n’est pas bein. On aimait bien la Panda game parce qu’on pouvait aller uh, au stade, avec des, on apportait des gourds avec des boissons, qui n’étaient pas vraiment légal à faire, mais il y avait des gardiens tout partout. C’est un seul temps où je dirais j’ai vu la sécurité. Aila : Oui, mais en ce cas c’était la sécurité un peu plus pour, parce que les gens buvaient beaucoup et Suzanne : C’est ça. Aila : Ok, ok. Alors notre génération, comme la mienne est intéressée par le mouvement, le mouvement de l’amour libre, alors quel était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage? À ce temps. Suzanne : On ne parlait pas vraiment. On assume, mais on ne parlait pas. Um, mais ça se peut … (19:36) pense que ce qui était plus, à l’époque, plus uh, inquiétants pour les femmes, comme moi disons, et mes amis d’un jeune âge, c’était uh, d’avoir accès à les contraceptives, on sais pas même ça. Et de pas tomber enceinte aussi. Aila : Oui. Suzanne : C’est toujours là, ça. Aujourd’hui, vous avez tous les précautions au monde à instant là, les précautions étaient très um, comment je dirais bien, l’adjective, uh, il y pas aussi, il n’y avait autant de variété. Aila : C’était plus difficile de les Suzanne : Oui, de les trouver peut-être. En tout cas, moi c’Est-ce que je pense. Aila : Oui, oui, c'est difficile de savoir exactement tout ça. Suzanne : … (20 :28) très évoluer Aila : Une question de dernière, on va vite ici. Les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiètent, il des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, comme plus que vous et vos amis ou pas vraiment? Suzanne : Ben, plus ma mère, comme j’étais plus proche à ma mère. Ma mère était toujours peur qu’une de ses filles tombent enceinte avant de se marier. Elle avait tellement peur de ça. Um, donc elle n’était pas uh, … (21 :03) ça se passerait probablement avant mariage. Parce qu’elle était quand même une personne qui avait certains ouvertures d’esprit. Aila : Hum, alors c'est tous les questions que j'ai pour vous, alors merci pour les répondre. Suzanne : Ça me fait plaisir, j’aimerais ajouter un commentaire, je sais pas si tu veux l’enregistrer ou quoi mais ça me fait rien. Ce que j’ai retenu d’université en plus de mon diplôme, c’est que ça fait cinquante ans, justement, en Septembre 2023, que nous sommes, sert amis, que nous nous sommes rencontrés en résidence de l’université d’Ottawa, et en ce jour on est toujours amis, cinquante ans. Disons Aila : C'est incroyable! Suzanne : Je pense que je vais contacter le, j’essaye bien de contacter … (22 :01) c’est quarante ans, c’est quoi la publication de l’université, pour vous donner un entrevue avec un photo parce que, honnêtement, cinquante ans est un demi-siècle. C’est quelquechose extraordinaire et ous somme tous ``a Ottawa et nous sommes toujours amis. Aila : C’est incroyable, ça. Suzanne : Donc, si vous voulez suivre ça avec moi, alors je vais leur en parler. Aila : C'est intéressant. Suzanne : Et je te félicite, ton français, parce que j’ai enseigner le français seconde langue quelques années, et je comprends pour toi tu la garder et comme on dit en français, uh … (22 :43) expression, si on pratique on continue a améliorer. Aila : C'est exactement pour pourquoi je le fais encore à l'université. Suzanne : Bravo, je te lève mon chapeau. Aila : Merci beaucoup! Suzanne : Ça m’a fait plaisir de participer à votre projet. Aila : Merci beaucoup pour participer si c'est difficile de trouver assez de personnes, alors merci beaucoup. Transcription Translation Aila: (0:00) Okay, fantastic, it works okay, so the first, like, theme or section we have of this interview is about popular culture, ahem, excuse me I'm also a little sick at the moment, um, so the question is when there were fewer devices, electronic devices during the years, the seventies. So how was your free time structured, or what did you and the other students do for fun? Suzanne: For fun? Well, um I was on the ball team... Aila: Uh huh. Suzanne: From the university, and even ??? (48s) a field hockey team, but it's intramural... Aila: Uh huh. Suzanne: And naturally, we frequented the famous Salon Bleu, which we loved. It was the ideal place to go dancing on campus. Aila: Oh, okay. Suzanne: The, the Marchand Building??? (1.05) and, uh, that's what we did in our free time, no more, no less, that was mostly on weekends. Aila: Yes. Suzanne: Naturally. And I jogged too, and when the Rideau Canal was uh, uh, uh, let's say winter and then we went skating on the Rideau Canal regularly, minus 40, uh no problem. Aila: Um, cool. Did, uh, French and English speakers sign up for the same races, or more or less separately? Suzanne: Well, in my case, I took courses, I didn't speak English at the time because I ??? (1.45) so I learned it in fact, in residence, because I lived in residence for four years and um my courses are in French only and I took a ??? course in ??? (1.58) in English too but it's in French and also (2.00) in Spanish, the third year is only in Spanish, I did a bac in Spanish. Aila: Hmm. Suzanne: And I didn't, I didn't use English in university except for an ESL course. Aila: And in the, in the clubs, in the sports teams, it's... Suzanne: It was um, on the ball and field hockey team, it's in French. Aila: Ah ok. Suzanne: To my knowledge, yes, then uh, it's on ??? at Salon Bleu, but there it was uh both languages. Aila: Oh. Suzanne: But like I said, I had trouble with English, so I was immersed in English at the time. Aila: Interesting. Ok um what are the other questions then, what did the student body think of the Vietnam War? Suzanne: In my time, at least, honestly, I can't remember. Maybe if I'd been on the student council there would have been, but I didn't see anything, to my knowledge. For me personally, because I wasn't very political then, and I'm not today either. And so, ??? (3.12) For me personally. Aila: Ah, cool ok. Um, in the sixties, the years, rock and roll artists kind of encouraged various forms of, of protest. So, this is a question a little more about your parents, did they see rock and roll as a rebellion movement or as just the music? Suzanne: Just the music. And I was younger then, naturally. Aila: Yeah. Suzanne: But it was just the music. And we danced in the living room. Aila: Hmm, we use the term "party culture" a lot um (4.00) to, like, describe that era and refer to social activities, so how would you describe the party culture on campus? Suzanne: Well, less in my day it was the disco era. That's what you mean by party, I imagine the music was the disco era, and we were right in the middle of it, then often we'd go out Thursday, Friday, Saturday, as I said to the woman, to the famous Salon Bleu, on campus that there were even people from outside, from Carleton University, who... (4.36) also, it took, there was a line to get in there, it was the "spot". Aila: Okay, I think I've got, oh I've got two more of that theme. So um, certain as a voice of culture encourage recreational drug taking, so do you, do you know if recreational drugs were actually available on campus during the seventies or not? Suzanne: Well, I assume that, that at least when I was there, honestly, no. It's after, after I graduated maybe we saw marijuana, uh cigarette marijuana, but it wasn't, like I may not have been very evolved at the time but I didn't see that from, from my student life while I was studying at the university, it's after. Aila: And do you know... And do you know about the uh, taking of psychedelic drugs, if that was happening much or where? Suzanne: I have no idea. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: No idea. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: Psychedelics, that's like I'm imagining pills here. Aila: (6.00) Hmm. No, I don't really know, I know it's a question we've got and that it happened, but... Suzanne: I know, like I said, we come from a type of place, arrived at a big university, it was uh it took evolution then ??? (6.22) moreover men, I have no idea, the answer is no. Aila: Okay. So, the second theme we have for..., wow, the second theme is like the female experience, so the role of women, and all that. So, um, cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second-wave feminism, that. Namely, that, as part of the counter-culture movement, women in the early nineteen-sixties sought to break down gender barriers. So does this argument resonate with your, um, experience on campus in the early sixties? Suzanne: But I wasn't there in the sixties. Aila: Yeah, I meant seventies. Suzanne: Um, no, it wasn't clear to me at the time, that wave, on campus for me personally. Aila: Yes, you uh, I read the questions. So, in your words, what did feminism mean in Canada at that time? Suzanne: Well, in my opinion, um, we saw a lot more women having access to courses at university, courses that weren't uh, let's say like (8.00) engineering, nursing, I had friends who were in science courses and uh, there were even others in administration. There were a lot more women, but also because university, I think, was more accessible with ??? (8.19) and scholarships, in my opinion. Does that answer your question? Aila: Yes, no, yes. Suzanne: To compare, say, to, to, to the kind of ??? (8.29), because at the time it was, before this time of ??? et bourses, it was ??? (8.37) but then with the ... and scholarships, it was more, more common. A person like me wouldn't be at university without ... and scholarships. Aila: So, in the seventies, were there, ugh, were there programs or departments or clubs at the university where women were less present and less accepted, compared to others? Suzanne: Um, as I said, I think maybe in programs geared more towards, at the time, engineering and all that, there were maybe fewer women in that moment there, ??? (9.19) fifty years old. Aila: Yeah. Suzanne: But I didn't see that on the, uh, arts side because that's a mix and there were probably, I don't know, more women in gimets, I'm not sure. But I think in the pure sciences, and the professions more um, engineering uh, I don't really know what else the university offered at the time, maybe even medicine, I don't know, I don't want to mention the things I don't the doings were more masculine than feminine. Aila: Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the seventies than they are today, (10.00) so, um, how did being a woman translate into different treatment and expectations than male students in the classroom or at social events? Suzanne: In the classroom, I didn't see anything different in that respect. But what's interesting to point out, perhaps in parenthesis, is that the Stanton residence, where I lived, was women-only, ah such as girls, at that time, the first year especially, I think it was my last year in 1977, if I understand myself, the second floors were women and the top floors were men. It wasn't mixed. Aila: How interesting! Suzanne: We were separated. Aila: Huh, cool, okay. Another big question, uh, historians have written a lot about what they called the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. So, to what extent did the members of your social circle feel they had to mobilize for a fairer society and a better world? Suzanne: Comparing it to my parents, that's kind of a broad question. Aila: Yeah, like. Suzanne: In my family, at the time, if I understand your question, I was the only one who went to university, there were five of us at university age. I have two sisters who went later in life, but I was the only one and my mother encouraged me because she hadn't had the chance. Um, but I think I'm getting around to your question here, I'm not sure. Aila: So did he have any, no, I don't know how I'm going to say it, Ok, I'll start again. (12.00) Um. So to what extent did your generation think your parents' notions of gender, sexuality, family and relationships, were, are they changed. Suzanne: Oh, uh, yes. Very changed. Aila: Um, um. Suzanne: Let's say, um, uh, I don't know if, like, I, well I wasn't in university at the time but I remember my mother was always ... for her daughters, especially when I told her, university was over, but when I told her that me and my current partner went to live together, before getting married, and this was still in 1978, uh she wasn't yelling at the roof tops. You know, so uh it changed from her point of view there. Point of view, uh, sexuality in one sense and also the other sense, uh uh, the parents were, hadn't lived it. Fishing, in quotes, but she didn't think like that, but... Aila: Hmm, yeah. What were the main forms of injustice in Canadian society during those years, or which ones did you... yes. Suzanne: You, you, you mean like major women in injustice? Aila: Yeah, like the women you see the most. Suzanne: Politically speaking, I wasn't a very political person, so I can't name anyone mainly. I know that in the eighties, uh, that's for sure ??? (13.56), Monique Bégin played a role for women in Canada, because she was (14.00) such a national health minister ??? (14.03) of the university afterwards. So, that's the only woman I can think of, I wasn't politicized so... Aila: And this, about like more, at the University of Ottawa did you see a lot of like racism and stuff like that or? Suzanne: No. Aila: Not really? Suzanne: I haven't seen anything like that. Aila: Ah, fantastic. Suzanne: And I even had a very good friend, unless, she lives in Ottawa who was black and uh, she was accepted by everybody, but there wasn't a lot of, multicul-, multiculturalism back then, um, just starting, I think, because I didn't have a lot of people in my class, in my classes, who were uh, from other nationalities. Aila: So it was more like white people who were there, but the attitude towards other people was, wasn't bad. Suzanne: No, yes. Aila: Okay. Suzanne: But maybe in the other classes, in science, there were a lot more people of other nationalities studying, I don't know, but for me personally it was, quite a lot of white people in general and uh very ordinary names. Aila : Perfect! Ok! So, cultural historians have said that the introduction of the contraceptive pill, the legalization of abortion and the spread of free love ideology changed relationships between men and women and love practices in the early seventies, so do you think that's true or not? Suzanne: I forget when the pill actually came in, I think the sixties, I'm not sure. In any case, um, as I said, (16.00) we weren't very advanced. I wasn't at the time anyway, so uh, I can't answer that question intelligently, but yes, you could see that love changed a bit between guys and girls. Aila: Ok um, so how would your generation view like family and marriage, all that, things like that. Suzanne: Um, well back then, I didn't think about that at all. I mean uh ... (16:36) only nineteen. But I was thinking that one day, yeah, I wanted to get married, have kids and that's the thing to do after graduation, mind you. And that's enough, that's what really gets me. Yeah. Aila: So what's it like dating in college and stuff like that? Suzanne: Well, we were, we were going dancing, at the Blue Room, and in the company of a lot of people you can have fun with without being tied to uh, one guy in particular. Aila: Ah, okay. Suzanne: Personally, I don't want to, well how would I put it, I'm not going to go into details, I'll leave my answer like that. Aila: Perfect! Okay, so I've got one section left, but it's about sexuality and harassment. So, again, if you don't want to answer the questions, don't answer, but you want me to go ahead and ask questions, that's fine. Suzanne: That's fine. Aila: Perfect! Ok, today many universities have been forced to control sexual harassment, so to what extent have university authorities (18.00) monitored parties and social events to ensure the safety of women is. Suzanne: I have no idea! In my time, I've never heard anything from women, there must have been some, but I've never heard anything from women and even from my close friends, who we've been friends for fifty years now, since university, who first witnessed assault or even heard stories about sexual assault. Aila: Hmm, so that was something... Suzanne: No, it wasn't something that was um, in front of us. I remember there was security when the famous Panda game, isn't it. We liked the Panda game because we could go uh, to the stadium, with, we brought gourds with drinks, which weren't really legal to do, but there were guards everywhere. That's the only time I'd say I saw security. Aila: Yes, but in that case it was security a little more for, because people were drinking a lot and Suzanne: Right. Aila: Okay, okay. So our generation, like mine is interested in the movement, the free love movement, so what was the perception of premarital sex? At that time. Suzanne: We didn't really talk. We assumed, but we didn't talk. Um, but it could be ... (19:36) think that what was more, at the time, more uh, worrisome for women, like me let's say, and my friends at a young age, was uh, having access to contraceptives, we don't even know that. And not getting pregnant too. Aila: Yes. Suzanne: That's still there. Today, you have all the precautions in the world right now, the precautions (20.00) were very um, how should I put it, the adjective, uh, there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much variety. Aila: It was harder to find them. Suzanne: Yes, to find them maybe. At least, that's what I think. Aila: Yes, yes, it's hard to know exactly all that. Suzanne: ... (20:28) very evolving. Aila: One last question, we're going fast here. Do members of your parents' generation worry about premarital sex, like more than you and your friends, or not really? Suzanne: Well, more my mother, as I was closer to my mother. My mother was always afraid that one of her daughters would get pregnant before she got married. She was so afraid of that. Um, so she wasn't uh, ... (21:03) it would probably happen before marriage. Because she was a pretty open-minded person. Aila: Um, so those are all the questions I have for you, so thank you for answering them. Suzanne: It's my pleasure, I'd like to add a comment, I don't know if you want to record it or what, but I don't mind. What I've learned from university, in addition to my degree, is that it's been fifty years, in September 2023, that we've been friends, that we met in residence at the University of Ottawa, and to this day we're still friends, fifty years. Let's say Aila: That's incredible! Suzanne: I think I'm going to contact the, I'm trying to contact ... (22:01) it's forty years, what's the university publication, to give you an interview with a photo because, honestly, fifty years is half a century. It's an amazing thing and we're all still in Ottawa and we're still friends. Aila: That's amazing. Suzanne: So, if you want to follow this with me, then I'll tell them about it. Aila: That's interesting. Suzanne: And I congratulate you, your French, because I taught French as a second language for a few years, and I understand for you you keep it and as we say in French, uh ... (22:43) expression, si on pratique on continue a améliorer. Aila: That's exactly why I'm still doing it at university. Suzanne: Bravo, my hat's off to you. Aila: Thank you very much! Suzanne: It was a pleasure to take part in your project. Aila: Thank you very much for taking part. If it's hard to find enough people, then thank you very much. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gagnon, Suzanne (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa, in Ottawa, Canada, including francophones on campus and feminism on campus. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 23 minutes, 11 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wang, Jonathan S. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. L (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview British Columbia, via phone call Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jonathan: Uh, hello? (00:00:19) L.M.: Hello? Jonathan: Hello, uh, L. Is this L.? L.M.: Yes. Can you hear me? Jonathan: Yeah, I can hear you. L.M.: OK. Well, that's good. Jonathan: OK. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this again. I, I can't believe. The last time didn't record anything. Uh. L.M.: Yeah, that's too bad. However, we'll try again. Jonathan: Yeah, we'll try again. Thank. Thank you so much for this, L.M.: You're welcome. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. Today is October 24th. And let us begin the interview. I'm gonna, I'm just going to go through all the questions in order this time. OK. So the first question about the popular culture of the time: “there were less electronics in Canadian society in the 1970s. How did you spend your leisure time”, or what did you do for fun? L.M.: I used to go swimming at the pool of University of Ottawa. I used to go skating on the canal. I used to go to the National Art Centre and the National Gallery and I used to have, go to restaurants or pubs with friends. (1:19) Jonathan: OK and, uh, were these restaurants, pubs the most popular hangout spots? L.M.: Uh, no. I used to go to a good Indian restaurant with my boyfriend that was on Nam. That was near the university and there was a creperie down on Rideau St. and there was Nate’s Delicatessen. Yeah, it was good. But yeah, I guess they were popular enough. I don't know. (01:52) Jonathan: But did you know any like, super popular places? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? OK then. Hmm. Well, yeah, that's that, I guess. Anyhow, you listen to- L.M.: That's right, I'm. I'm not really. I don't really fit the mold for wherever this this project is trying to go, I think anyway. Jonathan: Yeah. The super average student, I guess. Well, you listen to a lot of music during the time, right? L.M.: Yeah, I listen to folk music primarily. Jonathan: Yeah, hello. Folk and classical, you said last time. L.M.: Yeah, folk and classical. But I listen to, you know, I'm listened to Joan Baez. That's she would have been. She was popular in the time because she certainly was a, an, a political activist. Jonathan: Oh, but- (3:03) L.M.: So there you go. Jonathan: With the music, did you attend any live, live music concerts? L.M.: Well, as I said, yeah, some, some classical at the arts centre. I went to a couple of shows in Montreal, I went down to Montreal and heard Gilles Vigneault and Michel Fugain. At the Art Centre in Montreal. Jonathan: Yeah, the Arts in Montreal. Damn. Honestly, I don't, I don't even know any of these names. L.M.: Well, that's not surprising. They're they're, they're francophone, for one thing, so they're probably not culture that you're familiar with, and they're from the 70s, so. Jonathan: Yeah, long time. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. So you want to hear me say things like, oh, yeah, I went to The Rolling Stones and the Grateful Dead and. Jonathan: Well, it would be a lot more convenient if you did. L.M.: You'd have boxes that you could tick off. (4:00) Jonathan: Yeah, and be a lot easier to write everything. Ohh. OK, so the next part “we use the term party culture to describe certain universities.” How would you describe the “party culture” in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: That well, I wasn't particularly aware of it. I don't know if it was if it was around there, there used to be dances at the the first year I was in residence and there were often dances in the in the residence beside mine that I sometimes went to. Jonathan: Umm, but it was just like, dancing. Nothing really else happened there. L.M.: Yeah, it's just dancing. No, was just dancing. They had, you know, recorded music and there was dancing. Jonathan: Oh. Did you go to them? L.M.: Did I go to, did I go dancing there? Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. What's it like? “Organized dancing”, or is it like, you know, you just shake around, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M.: Yeah, let's just kind of shake around dancing. That's right. Jonathan: OK. And uh, what did the student body or yourself think about the Vietnam War? L.M.: Well, I wasn't. I wasn't in favor of it, obviously. It was. It was certainly disturbing at the time. There was a whole lot of as, as with any war, there's a whole lot of people being killed unnecessarily. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. But. Do you think there's like a, the- L.M.: There wasn't. There wasn't much discussion of it at, you know, in, you know, certainly among students. Jonathan: But did you think like the general consensus that most people, weren't, didn't really like it. They were kind of against it? (5:53) L.M.: Yeah, I think most people probably were. I mean, and certainly Canada, you know we we ended up with a lot of draft Dodgers from the, from the war. I think I mentioned that before I was. Certainly, you know, aware of that that there were young men coming up here because they didn't believe in the war. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm, did you personally see, meet any draft dodgers? L.M.: No, not that I can recall. Jonathan: All right. Next it's about rock'n'roll. I know you didn't listen to it a lot. But did you or maybe your parents think of, like, have any opinions about rock'n'roll? Do you see as like “devil music”? L.M.: No, I mean, I certainly it was totally, it was totally acceptable music for young people at the time, I didn't have anything against it. It just wasn't something I listened to a lot personally. Jonathan: OK. But and your. Did your parents have any opinions on it? (6:59) L.M.: No, I don't think so. Jonathan: Hmm, OK. Alright and- L.M.: I mean I- Jonathan: Yeah. L.M.: -Yeah. Jonathan: OK. L.M.: I mean the, I certainly, I certainly heard that. I mean I heard The Beatles, I heard the stones, I heard I. You know, if, if kids were having a party, that's the kind of that's the kind of music that we'd put on, it's actually. Jonathan: Ah. So it was still popular. L.M.: Certainly that now I'm going now. You know, I'm going back to UBC days. I think. I think maybe part of the difference at, with U of O is that I was a graduate student, you know, and I hung out with Med students and, and they were all pretty serious. You know, they had to get through Med school and so. Jonathan: Yeah, bachelor students are, yeah. A lot more relaxed. L.M.: Yeah. Well, exactly. I mean, they're younger and they're, you know, they're this is there for a lot of them. That's kind of their their, their chance to get away from home and so but. Jonathan: Have some fun, yeah. OK. And of course, 1970s. A lot of the, there was a lot of drugs being taken then. To what extent were drugs available or used on campus? (8:02) L.M.: I don't really know because I wasn't using them personally. You know, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were available. They're available everywhere, have been for years. Always have been, always will be. Jonathan: They are, that's true. But, hmm, did you maybe know a lot of drug users, like people who smoked marijuana? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? L.M.: I mean, yeah, well, that's, yeah. No, I certainly did. I certainly did know. Know some, I think, because I I knew a fellow who was, you know, who'd gone to high school in Ottawa. So he. Yeah, yeah, I know, he and his friends. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, it was definitely around. I was aware of. Of people who were using it. Jonathan: But do you also think it was common too? (9:04) L.M.: Oh yeah, sure, it was common. Jonathan: OK. And last thing about drugs. Uh, do you think a lot of students used hallucinogenics? Or psychedelic drugs too. L.M.: Yeah, I have no idea. I certainly I don't think. I don't think my friends were particular. I mean, the people I knew weren't into that, but. Again, I'm sure. They were out there. I know they were out there so. Jonathan: But it wasn't that common that you, you knew anyone who used it? L.M.: Yeah, it certainly wasn't terribly common among medical students. Jonathan: Oh yeah, would medical students know like a lot more about the drugs? L.M.: Oh, they probably knew somewhat more, but I don't. I not necessarily cause because I don't think any of them were. They probably knew enough not to use them. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. And that ends the first section about pop culture. Next is about the feminism, OK, so historians say they talk about the 2nd wave feminism as part of a, the general counterculture movement in the 1970s. It says that- (9:57) L.M.: How did that be second wave? When was the first wave? Did they talk about when the 1st? Jonathan: It was in. I think that was the early 1900s, when women like first got the right to vote. L.M.: Oh, OK. All right. So the, so second wave is what's going along in the 70s, OK? Jonathan: Yeah. So it says in the 1970s, woman worked to breakdown gender barriers and such. Does this? Well, does this description you know align with your experience in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: Oh yeah, sure. Jonathan: Yeah? Is there any like, specific thing that you can describe? L.M.: Well, I'm thinking that you know, I mean as I said, I ended up knowing a lot of medical students, my roommates were medical students. There were probably more women and well, and then and then I had one for a while one who was a law student too, so certainly there were more women. Entering the professions in that era than had been seen previously. (10:53) Jonathan: Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. OK. L.M.: There were more. There were more women in university and there were more women. There were definitely more women in the in the professions, particularly law, and medicine. I, I certainly saw more. Yeah, there were a lot more women going into those fields. I think it took a while for them to go, you know. And now you're seeing more in engineering too, that, that that was that that was longer, that took longer coming. But as I say in my in my era. There were, I think it was really the the beginning of, you know, seeing a lot of women in medicine and law. Jonathan: OK, so medicine and law you said we're like for you was the big, like a lot of woman took it up. I don't really describe that. Yeah. OK, uh, what did feminism like? Mean to you back then? Or maybe you'd- (11:55) L.M.: Yeah, as I think I- Jonathan: Yeah, I think you answered this before. L.M.: That yeah, I mean, because my own mother was a university professor like she was like way ahead of the curve. Right. So for me, having a, but I I certainly know as a child, I was the only, you know, I was the only woman. Er the only woman, the only person in my elementary school whose mother was. Was working I think, and you know, and that was probably pretty much the same through, through high school, although things might have started to change by then there were maybe some women, you know, working because their kids were in school. But but it was certainly less common, but to me. That was, you know, I, I always expected that I'd go to university and that I'd work because that was, you know, with having my mother as a role model that's just what I figured I'd do. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. So I guess would you call your, your mother, a feminist role model? (13:16) L.M.: She certainly wouldn't call herself that. You know, as many as the first. The women who were successful professionally tended to poo-poo the feminist movement because, you know, they'd made their own way. So they really couldn't understand what anybody else's problem was. But that said, I mean I don't agree with my mother on that. I, I think there and we're still seeing issues, you know, in terms of how women are treated in the workplace, I was very fortunate. I, you know, I didn't encounter any issues myself. Well, yeah, there there's, there's certainly, I, I would say there's some certainly some aspects of the old boys network and and you know men looking after themselves and it was harder for women to make their way, generally I think. Jonathan: Hmm, that's interesting. But you're saying your mother, you know, didn't really like the feminism movement? (14:18) L.M.: No, because she didn't. For, for her it was a non-issue, you know. You just get out there and you do it, you do what you want to do and that's that. And she, I mean. And she worked obviously in that era she was working in a very male environment but she was successful. So I think she, she wasn't overly sympathetic. She just. Jonathan: Yeah, that's. That is pretty interesting. I didn't really, you know I think. She's in the male dominated place, she should be, yeah, you know. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, I think it maybe it was that era that you just kind of accepted it, you know, I mean, you didn't really, I don't know. (15:01) Jonathan: Yeah, I guess that was true. You did just accept things. Is just how it is. L.M.: Yeah, yeah. Jonathan: OK. And then of course, you already said about the law and medical, but you know in U Ottawa the programs and departments were there places where women were like. Not accepted. You know, maybe like engineering. L.M.: Well, yeah, that's probably true- Jonathan: The big one? L.M.: -I think that I think, yeah, I don't think I knew any women in engineering so. Yeah, I think that's possible, but I wasn't really. I didn't. I wasn't really close to anybody in engineering review though either. So yeah, it's hard to say. Jonathan: But was there? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, maybe you knew any. Maybe you also knew any clubs or like, oh no, we don't like women in this club. L.M.: Yeah, I wasn't really. Jonathan: Into clubs? L.M.: I wasn't really into clubs, so yeah. (16:04) Jonathan: OK. And the next part, is about, uh, the general counterculture, which is basically all, you know, you don't really agree with the values your parents. You already said, uh, you know, you had a little bit of conflict with your mother over feminism? L.M.: Um, I, I. No, I wasn't conflicted with her. I, you know- Jonathan: But you just disagreed. L.M.: -I was inclined to agree with her. Pardon? Jonathan: Yeah. So you just disagreed? Never, no, really. Conflict. L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think at the time, I mean I, I would have, I would have disagreed later in life. I think at the time I just kind of accepted, um, you know, I thought she probably knew what she was talking about, and I didn't. I didn't expect to encounter any issues personally. And then I really never did so, but- Jonathan: So at the time you, you know, didn't really think about, you, you mostly agreed? (17:02) L.M.: Yeah, at that time, I didn't. Yeah, I at the time, I just assumed I was going to, you know, finish my degree and get a job and that that, that a Masters degree might might lead to an interesting job. And, and I always did have interesting jobs, whether the Masters degree contributed to I have no idea. Suddenly, the being bilingual did, being bilingual in Ottawa, was the big thing? Jonathan: Well, that's a big thing. Yeah, I'd like to think your Masters degree helps because I'm looking to get one after this. L.M.: Are you well good for you. What's your? What's your? Your field is history. Jonathan: Yeah, it's history. L.M.: Yeah, well, good for you. Jonathan: Well, thank you. L.M.: Yeah, no, I would encourage you to do that. Jonathan: I like to. I like to think that it was a big a big help. L.M.: Yeah, well, you know, I I do believe that that degrees in well in, in, the, the in history or you know English or social sciences that that that they're all I think they're all very useful because at the end of the day. (17:56) Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: At the end of the day, you need to be able to understand people. Whatever field you're in. So, and that's those studies help with that. Jonathan: Yeah, honestly, I just think a bachelor is one is one of those things that people don't like. So you have to have a masters, right? L.M.: Well, that's what. That's what I thought at the time too. And and you know, maybe I was right. As I say, I certainly, I certainly always ended up with interesting jobs. So. Jonathan: Ohh well I hope, I hope you are still right. L.M.: Yeah, for your sake, I hope I'm right too, I'm sure. Well, I'm sure if you're if you're in first year and you're props already asking you to do this kind of this kind of work, which you said usually only third and fourth year students do, that's that's a good sign. Jonathan: I hope it is, yeah. OK. And uh next part about these questions, OK, so uh, do you think that people maybe not yourself, but like people you knew maybe clashed in values with their parents? (19:07) L.M.: Yeah, I think I think to to some degree yeah. I mean I think that's, that's probably fairly normal with every generation though I would say. Jonathan: Yeah, that's true. L.M.: But because I mean, things do change and evolve and and, and it it may have been particularly true in the 70s. I mean, because of the feminist movement and because, you know, women were, had felt that they had more control of their bodies. They felt that they had, more, they were more likely to you know, to to get good jobs that they could do what they wanted. I mean, I think that was the thing. About feminism was that it started, you know that the, the gender roles were starting to break down. Which was a good. That, that, that. I think was the start of that. Jonathan: OK. But with that, do you know any, maybe, other women who were, like activists, may they participated in marches or protests and such? (20:22) L.M.: No, not particularly. Jonathan: Hmm. Were these sort of things rare in Ottawa? L.M.: I don't remember any, to be honest. You know, it's funny. I can remember things going on in Vancouver, but I don't remember, I don't remember Ottawa and, as I say, maybe I just hung out with people who were too studious, who were either. Jonathan: No time for activism. (21:02) L.M.: That's right. But yeah, I don't really remember. And it's it's weird because you'd think in Ottawa there would be but. But I don't know. Jonathan: Maybe they're all in, like a far off place. Not not near the university. Now that is interesting. L.M.: Well, maybe there are just so many Main Street because it's such a government town that it's government and engineering. I mean, so maybe maybe, the maybe the folks there were just more straight-laced. They they were part of, you know, they were at the power centre, so they didn't have to protest. Jonathan: Yeah, they they already did all the things. Yeah. Umm, well, usually just like out of town. People come to Ottawa. It's like, oh, you know, do some marches and protests. L.M.: Yeah, it certainly happens now, doesn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, it's pretty, it seems pretty common these days ugh. (21:57) L.M.: Yeah. But I don't remember that kind of thing happening in. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. But OK, looking back during that time, what aspect of Canadian society do you think was the most, you know or broken or just something that had to be dixed. I think you said something about, was it Western alienation? L.M.: Yeah, there was. Well, there was, there was Western alienation and there was the also the the focus on Quebec and trying to get Quebec to stay within Canada. That was certainly a big issue at the time. Jonathan: And it overshadowed like other issues that you thought were also very important. L.M.: Yeah, I think so. Jonathan: Yeah, were, any like specific maybe Western issues that you thought just was never addressed? L.M.: No, I think it was. It was just more feeling. You know, I don't know that there was anything specific I I think. There was a, you know, financial to some degree, I think there was a sense that that, that a lot of a lot of federal money went into Quebec to try to appease Quebec? And that the. (22:58) Jonathan: It was more feeling like you're just like second rate. OK. And similar to that, what do you think was the biggest forms of injustice during that time? I guess you can probably still answer Western alienation. L.M.: Yeah, and and also I mean, I do think even though as I say, my my mother didn't think it was an issue. I do think it was. There were still challenges with women in the workforce. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, you don't have anything more to say about that? (24:04) L.M.: Quebec, as I said, and and you know, Quebec separatism because I think I think most well, certainly the people I knew whether in BC or in Ontario did not want to see Quebec separate because of the feeling that it would be very disrupt, it would be very disruptive to the entire country. Jonathan: Yeah, definitely would’ve been. L.M.: So that as I say, that was probably. You know in Canada that was probably one of the the key issues at the time. Jonathan: The issues of the time, well, I guess all that federal money did pay off, Quebec voted to stay in, yeah. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. They're still with us. Jonathan: And last question about this, did you think the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the issues at the time? L.M.: I yeah, I think I did. Because I was a, I was a, you know, I was a student liberal at the time. And so I believed that the, the Liberal government was, you know, doing its best to address things. And also in the day I think politics were far more respectful. I mean, I remember having, I think I mentioned I was a teaching assistant and I remember one of my students worked on the Hill and worked for a, a Conservative MP, you know, and was talking about the, the genuine respect behind the scenes that you know that basically that all MP's had for one another because you know which, which is not, I don't think you see that to the same degree today, which is very distressing both in Canada and the US, well around the world. We seem to be getting more polarized. (25:01) Jonathan: That that is true, yeah. (26:04) L.M.: It is very disturbing. But you know at the time, I think at the time, I think government probably worked better than it does now. You know, I think we had a cabinet system that worked reasonably well, and, so yeah, at the time, I think I thought things were being reasonably well handled. Jonathan: OK, uh, the Prime Minister at times, that was Pierre Trudeau, right? L.M.: Right. Jonathan: Yeah, Pierre Trudeau, OK. So you thought it was, good. L.M.: I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I had a fair amount of respect for him. And I thought he was trying to do some, Some decent things. Jonathan: And even like government in general, the politics in general that they were better, better then than now? L.M.: The politics in general were much better than they are now, yes. I think, Trudeau senior was smarter than his son and cabinet government was more- (26:58) Jonathan: Competent? L.M.: -was more effective than. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Because over time there's just been more and more power concentrated in the, in the Prime Minister's office. Jonathan: OK. And now we're at the last part in 30 minutes. We've actually I think we might have spent more time talking the last time. L.M.: Yeah, we probably did, but- Jonathan: Yeah. Well, that's it. That's good, longer, longer, Interview is better for me. OK, OK. So the last part, historians again they say that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the, the free love Movement changed gender relations and dating in the 1970s. Do you agree with? L.M.: Yes. (28:05) Jonathan: Yes? Do you have anything more to add about that, like personal insight? L.M.: Well, no. Yeah, not personal insight necessarily, but just I think that it made. Well, for one thing, I mean it, it's part of what made it possible for women to be more involved in the in the workforce because they had, they had control over if or when they had kids. Because that was certainly, you know, in the beginning that was one of the, the challenges or the things that was was thrown up at women in terms of hiring women. You know, why would you do that? Because, you know, they'll just go off and have a family because that's what women were always supposed to do in the past. So, I think that, I think that did make a difference. Jonathan: OK. (29:02) L.M.: And, it probably also made a difference, I don't know whether this is true or not, I'm thinking that that women. And I never felt this, but, and I don't know whether some women felt that it, you know, they were more, it was easier to have kind of multiple relationships or, or people were more relaxed in terms of, you know, how soon, or whether they had sex in a in a relationship? Jonathan: No. Hmm. L.M.: I think there were that that would have that made a difference to women. Jonathan: OK. And about, you know, dating and stuff was what, a dating look like back then, eh? L.M.: What did dating look like? Jonathan: Yeah, it was, you know, just the same as now, you know? Yeah. You take your date, you go to dinner. L.M.: Well, I mean, I don't know, because I honestly, I don't know. I don't know anything about what dating looks like now. It looks like everybody just stares at their phones all the time. (29:57) Jonathan: Well, yeah. You, you do, you do that a lot, but you also, you know, go to restaurants, go to concerts, go to the yeah. L.M.: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good without your phone. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, without out phones, you gotta physically interact too. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that's still going on because yeah, that I mean, that's basically what I, certainly, I mean I remember, you know, going down to Quebec City to visit friends, I had friends who'd come out from Vancouver, and I was at you of all friends at Laval and, and, and yeah, and my boyfriend moved in. He was in Ottawa for, for a couple of years and then he moved to Montreal. He interned down there, so I went back and forth to so. But yeah, it was more, you know, going out with friends or just going out together, going to restaurant, maybe going to the theatre. Jonathan: Did you actually, did you maybe have like long phone calls or something with them? Maybe you know if you're far away. (31:03) L.M.: Yeah, we sometimes had long phone calls and we used to go. We used to go get together. We used to go hiking. I remember going, you know, with him and with other friends going, going on canoe trips in the summer that one of my friends organized. Jonathan: Yeah. That's too outdoors for me. L.M.: Yeah, that's way too outdoorsy for this survey, isn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, well. Probably depends on the person. I'm a, I'm a city person, so uh, I don't like going. L.M.: Yeah. So that doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably happening more and more and more, but. Jonathan: A lot more people live in cities. L.M.: But no, I enjoyed. Yeah, I enjoy the outdoors. I still do, not as. Anyway, yeah, because I used to go cross country skiing and I used to go downhill skiing too. When I was U of O, I was probably still doing more downhill, and then I got more into cross country. But yeah, no, I, I enjoy the outdoors. So yeah, I went hiking and. Jonathan: There’s skiing in Ottawa? (32:06) L.M.: Well, there's camp fortune. I don't know whether Camp Fortune still exists. I mean, it's not. Much of A ski. Can't forget it. Not much of a, you know for sure. I think it was called Camp Fortune. Yeah. Jonathan: It's still there. Ohh it's north of Gatineau. L.M.: Was up in the Gatineau yeah. Jonathan: But still close to Ottawa. L.M.: Yeah, that's right, because, that was the other thing. There was a fair amount of, you know, you know I had some friends who used to go over to, to Quebec to go drinking, you know, they'd go over to the Chaudiere(??). Was a, was a well known hang out. Jonathan: Because the legal age was lower? L.M.: A bit like. The, the hours were longer. Jonathan: Oh. Ah, you could drink more. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. Jonathan: I've never went drinking, so I wouldn't know about any of the sort of stuff. Do you think there's any, like maybe special things in the 1970s. Like something that just never happens again about dating or, you know, social life-ing? (32:55) L.M.: No, I mean, I think as I say, I think it was the beginning of a shift probably in terms of, of, of, of women feeling freer than they had in the past and you know able. Having more control of their lives. But that that has continued, like although there's now, there's folks in the states we may not, there's probably some nutbars here too, who want to close that down. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. L.M.: You know, some of the crazy Republicans who were trying to take control, take women's control away and ban abortion and ban birth control, which is that's I I, find that unbelievable that that people could be trying to take a step backwards at this point, but. Jonathan: Yeah, it's insane. It's been like, what, 50 years? (34:07) L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think they just it. I think it is some just really primarily just really conservative men who are just feeling threatened by everything they're threatened by, they're threatened by women, they're threatened by people of different races. I I don't know what their problem is, but they're they're. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think we dwelled a bit too much on that. Yeah, it's about the 1970s, not, not today. L.M.: Yeah. OK. Sorry. Yeah, no. But I think that was the beginning. I I don't, I wouldn't say that it's something that, you know that happened then that we never haven't seen again. But I think there were some significant shifts that happened then that are still carrying on in terms of. In terms of gender roles. Jonathan: OK, so there was a big social shift during that. (35:07) L.M.: Time, though I think there. Yeah, I think that was the beginning of a significant shift. Jonathan: But at the same time, it didn't really affect like what you'd actually do for, you know, fun and stuff. L.M.: No, I mean, I don't think my interests have shifted particularly you know, I mean I grew up interested in arts and theatre and and that, that, that still stuff today, you know, it was stuff I did then it was stuff I did before then, it's stuff I've done since then, you know, I'm, I'm still the the same person and I just carry on with my own interests. Jonathan: OK. Yeah, well, OK. And the final, final, final part. Uh, it's the stuff about sexual harassment and. OK, many universities today have been forced to, you know, heavily police sexual harassment. To what extent did the university maybe monitor social events or mixers back then because of sexual harassment? L.M.: I don't think at all. (36:14) Jonathan: Just not at all? L.M.: I don't think so. Jonathan: Was there any like, do you think there's, like a pamphlet like, oh, don’t, don't rape? Sorry. L.M.: I well. Yeah, I don't think that. I don't think that kind of thing was really coming to light at that point. I think that's been far more, recent that there are those. I mean, I think there were issues then, but I don't think I mean obviously based on what we know now, there's been a whole lot of bad behavior going on for a long time and it would have been going on then too, but it wasn't, it wasn't coming to light then. That's something that's happened more recently. Jonathan: But do you think the university viewed it as a problem or it's like, oh, this is just personal stuff? (37:05) L.M.: Yeah, I think they viewed it, I don't think they did view it as a problem, but I don't think it was, really on the radar I. Well, I shouldn't say that. I mean, obviously you know, if if, if a rape happened that people were worried about it, but. Jonathan: OK. OK. L.M.: But I don't. It's yeah. Jonathan: But the university didn't go out of its way to try to stop it. L.M.: No, there there was nothing proactive at the time with respect to- Jonathan: OK. L.M.: -to to rape. To to those issues that's I guess that's how I'd have. To put it. Jonathan: Alright. And oh, actually miss something for the final thing, the final thing is about sexuality and harassment. Sorry. And so the last two questions. Because the specific uh, the project is, there's a lot of interest in the free love stuff. So what was the perception of premarital sex? Do you think it was you know, accepted, or is it not accepted? Or- (37:49) L.M.: Yeah, it was that that I'd. Say that was a a difference between like my parents generation and my generation is that that premarital sex from from in my generation like in the 70s, that was, that was pretty much accepted and I don't think it was in previous generations. And I I think, yeah, I think it was accepted in the 70s because of the availability of birth control. Jonathan: OK. Do you think? But do you think maybe it was even encouraged, like people like, because of birth control, let's have a lot of sex? L.M.: I think it was probably far, it was more, there were more people engaging in in sexual activity than when than in my parents' generation, probably, yeah. (38:58) Jonathan: OK. And with your parents, did your parents or like other people's parents, worry about that sort of things, like, oh, “don't have premarital sex.” They ever maybe tell you or tell you? L.M.: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that would have been as I, I mean I never discussed sex with my parents. We never had that conversation- Jonathan: Ah yeah. L.M.: -but I do remember, you know there at at some point it it came up because I mean, as I said, I used to go camping with my boyfriend. And stuff and so. So I think my, you know, my parents were probably worried about what might be going on and, you know. If that concerned them, they were right to be worried, but we never talked about it and and, you know- Jonathan: So you never knew if they were like- (39:57) L.M.: -I was using birth control, so I it was, you know, to me that that seemed to be a natural thing to be doing at that age. For my parents, it probably wouldn't have been and they would, would have preferred that my behavior emulated theirs, but it was a different era. So. Jonathan: Hmm, that yeah, well that's the same now you know. My parents, they won't me to be more like them, yeah. L.M.: Sure. Yeah, I think that's I think I think that's the expectation of parents because you know that's what they know, and so it's they, they're. People always seem to find change difficult. Jonathan: Yeah, that is true. Well, that's actually all the questions. Alright, alright, perfect. L.M.: All right. Well, I hope this has worked this time and uh- Jonathan: Yeah, I really hope to. Ugh. L.M.: -Yeah. Yeah, sorry you got stuck with a, with a subject who's not not, not, outside of the norm of what the project's looking for. Jonathan: Well, to be fair, I think I think you're a lot closer than some of the other people because, apparently a lot of other students had trouble even contacting the, the first person they were given. (41:04) L.M.: Oh, is that right? Jonathan: Yeah. And apparently because there was so much problems that the teacher just like, oh, “do you know anyone who went to school in the 1970s?” Yes, anyone. Basically it's like OK, you ask your own parents if they if they went to like university then so I think you are a lot closer to what they expected. L.M.: You know how? Yeah. Do you know how they they came up with the list? Like how did they, how did they. Jonathan: The list of people? L.M.: Yeah, the list of the list of contacts that that you were working with. Jonathan: I have no idea. I just know the the teacher like you know that he contacted a lot of people. How how did how do you reach you? L.M.: Well, interestingly in my case I wasn't reached directly, but but in the the the reaching there was a a, a friend of mine who was the only other anglophone in the program that I was in at U of O and the masters program and and, for some reason, he was on the list and and then he forwarded it to me saying, you know, in case I was interested, he figured I'd probably received it too, since he received it, but I hadn't. And so that's why I was curious because I thought, well, I have given money to U of O, I'm still on, you know, still get bumped from U of O. (41:57) Jonathan: Ohh. L.M.: But I didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't on their their list, so I was curious as to how they managed to. Because I mean, it shouldn't be. Jonathan: All right. I think with you specifically is that uh, you graduated, uh, 1976, right? L.M.: Correct. Jonathan: They like initially if I remember very correctly they wanted the people who graduated in 1974. (42:58) L.M.: Right, yeah. Jonathan: That's a bit weird, and yeah, you were just, like, just off from the list. L.M.: That's right. I think we were kind of at the end of the wave. I mean, I think in many ways a lot of the really exciting stuff was happening in the late 60s. And so that's when that's when these, you know, a lot of these ideas were more, new if you like. That's, yeah. So we were, we were kind of at the end of. Jonathan: OK, remember, I think he said he just he went to yearbooks and like the university database or something and just contacted people's emails just gave like everyone an e-mail and see who responded. L.M.: OK. Yeah. Yeah, because that would be the challenge. I mean, you have the list of who graduated, but you have no idea where they are now, so. But but I still don't understand why I wouldn't have been contacted because, well, maybe it's as you say, it's just mind you, my, my friend who was we were there at the same time we were there for the same. We were both there from 74 to 76. We were there at the same two years, so I'm not quite sure why they would have found him and not me. Jonathan: Yeah, I think it really is. Maybe he just he just missed you. Yeah, you know he. Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's how it is. (44:03) L.M.: Well, anyway, well, I I. Like, I hope that you're you and your friends. How many people have you had to interview? Jonathan: Uh, no, just you. There was. I had another person, but he said he was too busy to work with. L.M.: OK. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, honestly, I think I'm very lucky that you responded, yeah. L.M.: Well, it It probably comes from my my teaching assistant experience. I have sympathy for students. Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: You're welcome, and I wish you the best of luck with your studies. Jonathan: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for for doing this again. L.M.: You're welcome. (45:02) Jonathan: Yeah. Have a great day. L.M.: You too. Bye now. Jonathan: Yeah. Thank you. Bye. (45:05) Transcription Translation Jonathan : Euh, bonjour ? (00:00:19) L.M. : Bonjour ? Jonathan : Bonjour, L. C'est bien L.? L.M. : Oui. Est-ce que vous m'entendez ? Jonathan : Oui, je vous entends. L.M. : D'accord, c'est bien. Jonathan : OK. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. Je n'arrive pas à y croire. La dernière fois, on n'a rien enregistré. Euh. L.M. : Oui, c'est dommage. Mais nous allons réessayer. Jonathan : Oui, nous allons réessayer. Merci. Merci beaucoup pour cela, L.M. : De rien. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Nous sommes le 24 octobre. Commençons l'interview. Je vais passer en revue toutes les questions dans l'ordre cette fois-ci. D'ACCORD. La première question porte sur la culture populaire de l'époque : "Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment occupiez-vous votre temps libre ?", ou que faisiez-vous pour vous amuser ? L.M. : J'allais nager à la piscine de l'Université d'Ottawa. J'allais patiner sur le canal. J'allais au Centre national d'art et à la Galerie nationale et j'allais au restaurant ou au pub avec des amis. (1:19) Jonathan : OK et, euh, est-ce que ces restaurants, ces pubs étaient les endroits les plus populaires ? L.M. : Euh, non. J'avais l'habitude d'aller dans un bon restaurant indien avec mon petit ami qui se trouvait sur Nam. C'était près de l'université et il y avait une crêperie sur la rue Rideau et Nate's Delicatessen. Oui, c'était bien. Mais oui, je suppose qu'ils étaient assez populaires. Je ne sais pas. (01:52) Jonathan : Mais connaissiez-vous des endroits super populaires ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? D'accord, alors. Hmm. Eh bien, oui, c'est ça, je suppose. Quoi qu'il en soit, vous écoutez... L.M. : C'est vrai, je suis. Je ne le suis pas vraiment. Je n'entre pas vraiment dans le moule de ce que ce projet essaie de faire, je pense en tout cas. Jonathan : Oui, c'est ça. L'étudiant super moyen, je suppose. Vous écoutez beaucoup de musique pendant ce temps, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Oui, j'écoute surtout de la musique folk. Jonathan : Oui, bonjour. Folk et classique, avez-vous dit la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, le folk et le classique. Mais j'écoute, vous savez, j'écoute Joan Baez. C'est ce qu'elle aurait été. Elle était populaire à l'époque parce qu'elle était certainement une activiste politique. Jonathan : Oh, mais... (3:03) L.M. : Voilà. Jonathan : En ce qui concerne la musique, avez-vous assisté à des concerts de musique en direct ? L.M. : Eh bien, comme je l'ai dit, oui, un peu de classique au centre des arts. J'ai assisté à quelques spectacles à Montréal, je suis allé à Montréal et j'ai entendu Gilles Vigneault et Michel Fugain. Au Centre d'art de Montréal. Jonathan : Oui, les Arts à Montréal. Bon sang. Honnêtement, je ne connais aucun de ces noms. L.M. : Ce n'est pas surprenant. Ils sont francophones, d'une part, donc leur culture ne vous est probablement pas familière, et ils datent des années 70. Jonathan : Oui, depuis longtemps. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Alors vous voulez m'entendre dire des choses comme, oh, oui, je suis allé voir les Rolling Stones et le Grateful Dead et... Jonathan : Eh bien, ce serait beaucoup plus pratique si vous le faisiez. L.M. : Il y aurait des cases à cocher. (4:00) Jonathan : Oui, et c'est beaucoup plus facile de tout écrire. Ohh. Ok, donc la partie suivante "nous utilisons le terme culture de la fête pour décrire certaines universités". Comment décririez-vous la "culture du parti" à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Eh bien, je n'étais pas particulièrement au courant. Je ne sais pas si c'était dans le coin, il y avait des soirées dansantes la première année où j'étais en résidence et il y avait souvent des soirées dans la résidence à côté de la mienne où j'allais parfois. Jonathan : Umm, mais c'était juste pour danser. Il ne s'est rien passé d'autre. L.M. : Oui, c'est juste de la danse. Non, c'était juste de la danse. Ils avaient, vous savez, de la musique enregistrée et il y avait de la danse. Jonathan : Oh. Tu es allé les voir ? L.M. : Est-ce que je suis allé, est-ce que je suis allé danser là-bas ? Oui. Jonathan : Oui. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? "C'est de la danse organisée, ou c'est comme, tu sais, tu te secoues, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M. : Oui, secouons-nous en dansant. C'est ça. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et euh, que pensait le corps étudiant ou vous-même de la guerre du Vietnam ? L.M. : Eh bien, je ne l'étais pas. Je n'étais pas pour, évidemment. C'est vrai. C'était certainement troublant à l'époque. Comme dans toute guerre, il y avait beaucoup de gens qui étaient tués inutilement. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm. Mais. Est-ce que tu penses qu'il y a une, la... L.M. : Non. Il n'y a pas eu beaucoup de discussions à ce sujet, vous savez, dans, vous savez, certainement parmi les étudiants. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que le consensus général était que la plupart des gens, n'étaient pas, n'aimaient pas vraiment ça. Ils étaient plutôt contre ? (5:53) L.M. : Oui, je pense que la plupart des gens l'étaient. Je veux dire, et certainement le Canada, vous savez, nous nous sommes retrouvés avec beaucoup de Dodgers de la guerre. Je crois que je l'ai déjà mentionné. J'étais certainement conscient qu'il y avait des jeunes hommes qui venaient ici parce qu'ils ne croyaient pas à la guerre. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm, avez-vous personnellement vu, rencontré des réfractaires ? L.M. : Non, pas que je me souvienne. Jonathan : Très bien. Le prochain sujet est le rock'n'roll. Je sais que vous n'en écoutiez pas beaucoup. Mais est-ce que vous, ou peut-être vos parents, avez des opinions sur le rock'n'roll ? Est-ce que vous le considérez comme de la " musique du diable " ? L.M. : Non, je veux dire que c'était certainement une musique tout à fait acceptable pour les jeunes de l'époque, je n'avais rien contre. C'est juste que ce n'était pas quelque chose que j'écoutais beaucoup personnellement. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais et vos. Est-ce que vos parents avaient un avis sur la question ? (6:59) L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Hmm, OK. D'accord et... L.M. : Je veux dire que je... Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : -Oui. Jonathan : OK. L.M. : Je veux dire, j'ai certainement, j'ai certainement entendu ça. Je veux dire que j'ai entendu les Beatles, j'ai entendu les Stone, j'ai entendu I. Vous savez, si, si des enfants faisaient une fête, c'est le genre de musique qu'on mettrait, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Ah. C'était donc encore populaire. L.M. : Certainement que maintenant, j'y vais. Vous savez, je reviens à l'époque de l'UBC. Je pense que. Je pense qu'une partie de la différence avec l'Université de l'Ontario est que j'étais un étudiant diplômé, vous savez, et je traînais avec des étudiants en médecine et, et ils étaient tous assez sérieux. Vous savez, ils devaient passer par l'école de médecine et ainsi de suite. Jonathan : Oui, les étudiants en licence sont, oui. Beaucoup plus détendus. L.M. : Oui. Tout à fait. Je veux dire, ils sont plus jeunes et ils sont, vous savez, ils sont là pour beaucoup d'entre eux. C'est un peu leur chance, leur chance de s'éloigner de la maison, etc. Jonathan : Amusez-vous bien, oui. D'ACCORD. Et bien sûr, les années 1970. Il y avait beaucoup de drogues à l'époque. Dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou consommées sur le campus ? (8:02) L.M. : Je ne sais pas vraiment parce que je ne les utilisais pas personnellement. Vous savez, je suis sûre qu'il y en avait. Je suis sûr qu'ils étaient disponibles. Ils sont disponibles partout, depuis des années. Ils l'ont toujours été et le seront toujours. Jonathan : C'est vrai. Mais, hmm, est-ce que tu as connu beaucoup de toxicomanes, comme des gens qui fumaient de la marijuana ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? L.M. : Je veux dire, oui, eh bien, c'est, oui. Non, c'est certain. Je connaissais certainement. J'en connaissais certains, je pense, parce que je connaissais un gars qui était, vous savez, qui était allé à l'école secondaire à Ottawa. Alors il... Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Je dirais donc que, oui, c'était bel et bien présent. J'étais au courant. Des gens qui l'utilisaient. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous aussi que c'était courant ? (9:04) L.M. : Oui, bien sûr, c'était courant. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Dernière chose à propos des drogues. Pensez-vous que beaucoup d'étudiants ont consommé des hallucinogènes ? Ou des drogues psychédéliques aussi. L.M. : Oui, je n'en ai aucune idée. En tout cas, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que mes amis étaient particuliers. Je veux dire, les gens que je connaissais n'étaient pas intéressés, mais... Encore une fois, j'en suis sûre. Ils étaient là. Je sais qu'ils étaient là. Jonathan : Mais ce n'était pas si courant que ça, vous connaissiez quelqu'un qui l'utilisait ? L.M. : Oui, ce n'était certainement pas très courant parmi les étudiants en médecine. Jonathan : Oh oui, les étudiants en médecine en sauraient-ils beaucoup plus sur les médicaments ? L.M. : Oh, ils en savaient probablement un peu plus, mais pas moi. Je n'en suis pas nécessairement la cause parce que je ne pense pas qu'aucun d'entre eux l'était. Ils en savaient probablement assez pour ne pas les utiliser. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. C'est ainsi que se termine la première partie sur la culture pop. Les historiens parlent du féminisme de la deuxième vague comme faisant partie du mouvement général de la contre-culture dans les années 1970. Il est dit que... (9:57) L.M. : En quoi cela a-t-il été la deuxième vague ? Quand a eu lieu la première vague ? Ont-ils parlé de la première vague ? Jonathan : C'était au. Je pense que c'était au début des années 1900, lorsque les femmes ont obtenu le droit de vote. L.M. : Oh, d'accord. D'accord. La deuxième vague, c'est ce qui se passe dans les années 70, d'accord ? Jonathan : Oui. Il est dit que dans les années 1970, les femmes se sont efforcées de faire tomber les barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que c'est le cas ? Cette description correspond-elle à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Jonathan : Oui ? Y a-t-il une chose spécifique que vous pouvez décrire ? L.M. : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'ai fini par connaître beaucoup d'étudiants en médecine, mes colocataires étaient des étudiants en médecine. Il y avait probablement plus de femmes, et puis j'en ai eu une pendant un certain temps qui était aussi étudiante en droit, donc il y avait certainement plus de femmes. Il y avait donc certainement plus de femmes que par le passé qui accédaient aux professions libérales à cette époque. (10:53) Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, voilà. Oui, c'est ça. OK. L.M. : Il y en avait plus. Il y avait plus de femmes à l'université et plus de femmes. Il y avait certainement plus de femmes dans les professions libérales, en particulier en droit et en médecine. J'en ai certainement vu plus. Oui, il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes dans ces domaines. Je pense qu'il a fallu un certain temps pour qu'elles y aillent, vous savez. Et maintenant, on en voit plus dans l'ingénierie aussi, c'était plus long, c'était plus long à venir. Mais comme je l'ai dit à mon époque. Il y avait, je pense que c'était vraiment le début de, vous savez, voir beaucoup de femmes en médecine et en droit. Jonathan : OK, donc la médecine et le droit, vous avez dit que pour vous, c'était le grand, comme beaucoup de femmes l'ont fait. Je ne peux pas vraiment décrire cela. Je ne sais pas vraiment comment le décrire. OK, euh, qu'est-ce que le féminisme ? Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait pour vous à l'époque ? Ou peut-être que vous... (11:55) L.M. : Oui, comme je pense que je... Jonathan : Oui, je crois que vous avez déjà répondu à cette question. L.M. : Oui, parce que ma mère était professeur d'université et qu'elle avait une longueur d'avance. C'est vrai. Pour moi, le fait d'avoir une, mais je sais certainement qu'en tant qu'enfant, j'étais la seule, vous savez, j'étais la seule femme. J'étais la seule femme, la seule personne de mon école primaire dont la mère travaillait. Elle travaillait, je pense, et vous savez, et c'était probablement à peu près la même chose jusqu'à, jusqu'au lycée, bien que les choses aient peut-être commencé à changer à ce moment-là, il y avait peut-être quelques femmes, vous savez, qui travaillaient parce que leurs enfants étaient à l'école. Mais c'était certainement moins courant, mais pour moi. J'ai toujours pensé que j'irais à l'université et que je travaillerais parce que c'était, vous savez, avec ma mère comme modèle, ce que je pensais faire. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Donc je suppose que vous appelleriez votre, votre mère, un modèle féministe ? (13:16) L.M. : Elle ne s'appellerait certainement pas comme ça. Vous savez, autant que la première. Les femmes qui avaient réussi professionnellement avaient tendance à bouder le mouvement féministe parce que, vous savez, elles avaient fait leur propre chemin. Elles ne pouvaient donc pas comprendre quel était le problème des autres. Cela dit, je ne suis pas d'accord avec ma mère sur ce point. Je pense qu'il y a des problèmes, et il y en a encore, sur la façon dont les femmes sont traitées sur le lieu de travail, mais j'ai eu beaucoup de chance. Je n'ai pas rencontré de problèmes moi-même. Eh bien, oui, il y a, il y a certainement, je, je dirais qu'il y a certainement certains aspects du réseau des vieux garçons et vous savez les hommes qui s'occupent d'eux-mêmes et il était plus difficile pour les femmes de se frayer un chemin, généralement je pense. Jonathan : Hmm, c'est intéressant. Mais vous dites que votre mère n'aimait pas vraiment le mouvement féministe ? (14:18) L.M. : Non, parce qu'elle ne l'a pas fait. Pour elle, ce n'était pas un problème, vous savez. Il suffit d'y aller et de le faire, de faire ce que l'on veut faire et c'est tout. Et elle, je veux dire. Et elle travaillait évidemment à cette époque dans un environnement très masculin, mais elle a réussi. Je pense donc qu'elle n'était pas trop compatissante. Elle était juste. Jonathan : Oui, c'est. C'est très intéressant. Je n'avais pas vraiment, vous savez, je pense. Elle est dans un endroit dominé par les hommes, elle devrait l'être, oui, vous savez. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, oui. Je pense que c'est peut-être à cette époque qu'on l'a accepté, on ne l'a pas vraiment accepté, je ne sais pas. (15:01) Jonathan : Oui, je suppose que c'était vrai. Vous avez accepté les choses. C'est comme ça. L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et puis bien sûr, vous avez déjà parlé du droit et de la médecine, mais vous savez, à U Ottawa, les programmes et les départements étaient des endroits où les femmes n'étaient pas acceptées. Pas acceptées. Vous savez, peut-être comme l'ingénierie. L.M. : Eh bien, oui, c'est probablement vrai... Jonathan : Le plus gros ? L.M. : -Je pense que je pense, oui, je ne pense pas que je connaissais des femmes dans l'ingénierie. Oui, je pense que c'est possible, mais je ne l'étais pas vraiment. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas vraiment proche de quelqu'un dans la revue d'ingénierie non plus. Alors oui, c'est difficile à dire. Jonathan : Mais y en avait-il ? Oui. Oui. Mais tu sais, peut-être que tu en connaissais. Peut-être que vous connaissiez aussi des clubs ou comme, oh non, on n'aime pas les femmes dans ce club. L.M. : Oui, pas vraiment. Jonathan : Dans les clubs ? L.M. : Je n'aimais pas vraiment les clubs, alors oui. (16:04) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et la partie suivante, c'est sur, euh, la contre-culture en général, qui est en fait tout, vous savez, vous n'êtes pas vraiment d'accord avec les valeurs de vos parents. Vous avez déjà dit, euh, vous savez, vous avez eu un petit conflit avec votre mère à propos du féminisme ? L.M. : Euh, je, je. Non, je n'étais pas en conflit avec elle. Je, vous savez... Jonathan : Mais vous n'étiez pas d'accord. L.M. : -J'étais enclin à être d'accord avec elle. Pardon ? Jonathan : Oui. Vous n'étiez donc pas d'accord ? Jamais, non, vraiment. Conflit. L.M. : Oui. Eh bien, je pense qu'à l'époque, je veux dire que j'aurais, j'aurais été en désaccord plus tard dans la vie. Je pense qu'à l'époque, j'ai juste accepté, hum, vous savez, je pensais qu'elle savait probablement de quoi elle parlait, et je ne le savais pas. Je ne m'attendais pas à rencontrer des problèmes personnels. Et cela n'a jamais été le cas, mais... Jonathan : Donc à l'époque vous, vous savez, vous n'avez pas vraiment réfléchi, vous, vous étiez plutôt d'accord ? (17:02) L.M. : Oui, à l'époque, je ne le savais pas. Oui, à l'époque, je pensais simplement que j'allais, vous savez, terminer mon diplôme et trouver un emploi et que ce, qu'un master pourrait conduire à un emploi intéressant. Et, et j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants, je ne sais pas si le master y a contribué. Soudain, le fait d'être bilingue, d'être bilingue à Ottawa, c'était la grande affaire ? Jonathan : C'est une chose importante. Oui, j'aime à penser que votre maîtrise vous aide parce que j'envisage d'en obtenir une après cela. L.M. : Vous allez bien, c'est bien pour vous. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Quel est le vôtre ? Votre domaine est l'histoire. Jonathan : Oui, c'est de l'histoire ancienne. L.M. : Oui, tant mieux pour vous. Jonathan : Merci. L.M. : Oui, non, je vous encourage à le faire. Jonathan : J'aime bien. J'aime à penser que cela a été d'une grande aide. L.M. : Oui, vous savez, je crois que les diplômes en histoire, en anglais ou en sciences sociales sont tous très utiles parce qu'en fin de compte. (17:56) Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : En fin de compte, il faut être capable de comprendre les gens. Quel que soit le domaine dans lequel on travaille. C'est pourquoi les études aident à cela. Jonathan : Oui, honnêtement, je pense qu'une licence est l'une de ces choses que les gens n'aiment pas. Il faut donc avoir un master, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Eh bien, c'est ce que je pensais à l'époque. C'est ce que je pensais aussi à l'époque. Et vous savez, j'avais peut-être raison. Comme je l'ai dit, j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants. Donc. Jonathan : J'espère que vous avez toujours raison. L.M. : Oui, pour vous, j'espère que j'ai raison aussi, j'en suis sûre. Je suis sûr que si vous êtes en première année et que vous êtes déjà en train de faire ce genre de travail, ce que vous avez dit que seuls les étudiants de troisième et quatrième année font habituellement, c'est un bon signe. Jonathan : J'espère que oui. D'ACCORD. Et euh, la prochaine partie de ces questions, OK, donc euh, pensez-vous que les gens, peut-être pas vous-même, mais comme les gens que vous avez connus, ont peut-être des valeurs différentes de celles de leurs parents ? (19:07) L.M. : Oui, je pense que dans une certaine mesure, oui. Je veux dire que je pense que c'est, c'est probablement assez normal pour chaque génération, je dirais. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. L.M. : Mais parce que je veux dire, les choses changent et évoluent et, et c'était peut-être particulièrement vrai dans les années 70. Je veux dire, à cause du mouvement féministe et parce que, vous savez, les femmes avaient, avaient le sentiment de mieux contrôler leur corps. Elles pensaient qu'elles avaient plus de chances d'obtenir de bons emplois et de pouvoir faire ce qu'elles voulaient. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était ça le truc. Le féminisme a commencé à briser les rôles attribués aux hommes et aux femmes, ce qui était une bonne chose. Ce qui était une bonne chose. C'est, c'est, c'est. Je pense que c'était le début. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais à ce propos, connaissez-vous d'autres femmes qui étaient des activistes, qui ont participé à des marches ou à des protestations ? (20:22) L.M. : Non, pas particulièrement. Jonathan : Hmm. Ce genre de choses était-il rare à Ottawa ? L.M. : Je ne m'en souviens pas, pour être honnête. Vous savez, c'est amusant. Je me souviens de choses qui se passaient à Vancouver, mais je ne me souviens pas, je ne me souviens pas d'Ottawa et, comme je l'ai dit, peut-être que je traînais simplement avec des gens qui étaient trop studieux, qui étaient soit. Jonathan : Pas de temps pour l'activisme. (21:02) L.M. : C'est exact. Mais oui, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Et c'est bizarre parce qu'on pourrait penser qu'à Ottawa, il y aurait des mais. Mais je ne sais pas. Jonathan : Peut-être qu'ils sont tous dans un endroit très éloigné. Pas près de l'université. C'est intéressant. L.M. : Peut-être qu'il y a tellement de Main Street parce que c'est une ville tellement gouvernementale que c'est le gouvernement et l'ingénierie. Je veux dire, alors peut-être que les gens là-bas étaient plus droits. Ils faisaient partie, vous savez, ils étaient au centre du pouvoir, donc ils n'avaient pas à protester. Jonathan : Oui, ils ont déjà fait toutes les choses. Oui. Umm, eh bien, d'habitude, c'est comme à l'extérieur de la ville. Les gens viennent à Ottawa. C'est comme, oh, vous savez, faire des marches et des protestations. L.M. : Oui, c'est certainement le cas aujourd'hui, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, c'est assez, ça semble assez courant de nos jours ugh. (21:57) L.M. : Oui. Mais je ne me souviens pas que ce genre de choses se soit produit à... Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Mais d'accord, en regardant en arrière pendant cette période, quel aspect de la société canadienne était le plus, vous savez, cassé ou juste quelque chose qui devait être désinfecté. Je crois que vous avez parlé de l'aliénation de l'Occident. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Eh bien, il y avait l'aliénation de l'Ouest et il y avait aussi l'accent mis sur le Québec et la tentative de faire en sorte que le Québec reste au sein du Canada. C'était certainement une question importante à l'époque. Jonathan : Et cela a éclipsé d'autres questions que vous jugiez également très importantes. L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Jonathan : Ouais, est-ce qu'il y a eu des problèmes spécifiques à l'Ouest qui n'ont jamais été abordés ? L.M. : Non, je pense que oui. C'était juste plus un sentiment. Je ne sais pas s'il y avait quelque chose de spécifique. Il y avait un sentiment, vous savez, financier dans une certaine mesure, je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment que, que beaucoup d'argent fédéral allait au Québec pour essayer d'apaiser le Québec... Et que le... (22:58). Et que le (22:58) Jonathan : C'est plutôt le sentiment d'être une personne de seconde zone. D'ACCORD. Dans le même ordre d'idées, quelles étaient, selon vous, les plus grandes formes d'injustice à cette époque ? Je pense que vous pouvez toujours répondre à la question de l'aliénation occidentale. L.M. : Oui, et aussi, je veux dire, je pense que même si, comme je l'ai dit, ma mère ne pensait pas que c'était un problème. Je pense que c'était le cas. Il y avait encore des problèmes avec les femmes sur le marché du travail. Jonathan : Oui. Bon, vous n'avez rien d'autre à dire à ce sujet ? (24:04) L.M. : Le Québec, comme je l'ai dit, et vous savez, le séparatisme québécois parce que je pense que la plupart des gens, certainement les gens que je connaissais, que ce soit en Colombie-Britannique ou en Ontario, ne voulaient pas que le Québec se sépare parce qu'ils avaient le sentiment que cela perturberait beaucoup l'ensemble du pays. Jonathan : Oui, certainement. L.M. : Comme je l'ai dit, c'était probablement le cas. Vous savez, au Canada, c'était probablement l'une des principales questions à l'époque. Jonathan : Les enjeux de l'époque, eh bien, je suppose que tout cet argent fédéral a porté ses fruits, le Québec a voté pour rester dans le groupe, oui. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Ils sont toujours avec nous. Jonathan : Et dernière question à ce sujet, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et adapté aux problèmes de l'époque ? L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Parce que j'étais, vous savez, j'étais un étudiant libéral à l'époque. Je pensais donc que le gouvernement libéral faisait de son mieux pour régler les problèmes. De plus, à l'époque, je pense que la politique était beaucoup plus respectueuse. Je me souviens d'avoir eu, je crois que j'ai mentionné que j'étais assistant d'enseignement et je me souviens que l'un de mes étudiants travaillait sur la Colline et travaillait pour un député conservateur, vous savez, et il parlait du, du véritable respect en coulisses que vous savez, que tous les députés avaient les uns pour les autres parce que vous savez, ce qui n'est pas, je ne pense pas que vous voyez cela au même degré aujourd'hui, ce qui est très affligeant à la fois au Canada et aux États-Unis, ainsi que dans le monde entier. Il semble que nous soyons de plus en plus polarisés. (25:01) Jonathan : C'est vrai, oui. (26:04) L.M. : C'est très inquiétant. Mais vous savez, à l'époque, je pense que le gouvernement fonctionnait probablement mieux qu'aujourd'hui. Je pense que nous avions un système de cabinet qui fonctionnait raisonnablement bien, et donc oui, à l'époque, je pensais que les choses étaient raisonnablement bien gérées. Jonathan : OK, euh, le premier ministre à certains moments, c'était Pierre Trudeau, c'est ça ? L.M. : Oui. Jonathan : Oui, Pierre Trudeau, OK. Vous avez donc pensé que c'était bien. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais pas mal de respect pour lui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais un certain respect pour lui. Et je pensais qu'il essayait de faire des choses décentes. Jonathan : Et même comme le gouvernement en général, la politique en général, c'était mieux, mieux à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui ? L.M. : La politique en général était bien meilleure qu'aujourd'hui, oui. Je pense que Trudeau père était plus intelligent que son fils et que le gouvernement était plus... (26:58) Jonathan : Compétent ? L.M. : -était plus efficace que. Oui, c'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Parce qu'au fil du temps, il y a eu de plus en plus de pouvoir concentré dans le bureau du Premier ministre. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Nous en sommes maintenant à la dernière partie, dans 30 minutes. En fait, je pense que nous avons passé plus de temps à parler la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, probablement, mais... Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, c'est tout. C'est bien, plus long, plus long, Entretien c'est mieux pour moi. D'ACCORD, D'ACCORD. Pour finir, les historiens disent que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et le mouvement de l'amour libre ont changé les relations entre les hommes et les femmes dans les années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord ? L.M. : Oui (28:05) Jonathan : Oui ? Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter à ce sujet, comme un point de vue personnel ? L.M. : Eh bien, non. Oui, ce n'est pas nécessairement un point de vue personnel, mais je pense que cela a permis. D'abord, c'est en partie ce qui a permis aux femmes de s'impliquer davantage dans le monde du travail, parce qu'elles pouvaient décider si elles avaient des enfants ou quand elles en auraient. Parce que c'était certainement, vous savez, au début, l'un des défis ou l'une des choses que l'on lançait aux femmes en termes d'embauche. Vous savez, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Parce que, vous savez, elles vont juste partir et fonder une famille parce que c'est ce que les femmes étaient toujours censées faire dans le passé. Je pense donc que cela a fait une différence. Jonathan : OK. (29:02) L.M. : Et, cela a probablement aussi fait une différence, je ne sais pas si c'est vrai ou non, je pense que les femmes. Je n'ai jamais ressenti cela, mais je ne sais pas si certaines femmes ont eu l'impression qu'il était plus facile d'avoir des relations multiples ou si les gens étaient plus détendus en ce qui concerne la fréquence ou l'opportunité des rapports sexuels au sein d'une relation. Jonathan : Non. L.M. : Je pense qu'il y en a eu qui auraient fait la différence pour les femmes. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et à propos de, vous savez, les rencontres et tout ça, à quoi ressemblait une rencontre à l'époque, hein ? L.M. : À quoi ressemblaient les rendez-vous ? Jonathan : Oui, c'était la même chose qu'aujourd'hui. Oui, c'est vrai. Vous prenez votre rendez-vous, vous allez dîner. L.M. : Eh bien, je veux dire, je ne sais pas, parce qu'honnêtement, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais rien de ce à quoi ressemblent les rencontres aujourd'hui. On dirait que tout le monde regarde son téléphone tout le temps. (29:57) Jonathan : Eh bien, oui. Vous, vous faites, vous faites ça beaucoup, mais vous allez aussi, vous savez, au restaurant, au concert, au théâtre, etc. L.M. : Oui, c'est bien. C'est bien sans ton téléphone. Jonathan : Oui. Sans téléphone, il faut aussi interagir physiquement. L.M. : Oui. Oui. Je suis contente d'entendre que ça continue parce que oui, c'est en gros ce que j'ai fait, certainement, je me souviens d'être allée à Québec pour rendre visite à des amis, j'avais des amis qui étaient venus de Vancouver, et j'étais à Laval, et, et, et oui, et mon petit ami a emménagé. Il a vécu à Ottawa pendant quelques années, puis il a déménagé à Montréal. Il a fait un stage là-bas, alors j'ai fait des allers-retours. Mais oui, c'était plus, vous savez, sortir avec des amis ou juste sortir ensemble, aller au restaurant, peut-être aller au théâtre. Jonathan : Est-ce que vous avez eu de longs appels téléphoniques avec eux ? Peut-être que si vous êtes loin, vous savez. (31:03) L.M. : Oui, nous avions parfois de longs appels téléphoniques et nous avions l'habitude d'y aller. Nous avions l'habitude de nous retrouver. Nous faisions des randonnées. Je me souviens d'avoir fait, avec lui et d'autres amis, des excursions en canoë pendant l'été, organisées par l'un de mes amis. Jonathan : Oui. C'est trop à l'extérieur pour moi. L.M. : Oui, c'est beaucoup trop extérieur pour cette enquête, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, eh bien. Cela dépend probablement de la personne. Je suis un citadin, donc je n'aime pas y aller. L.M. : Oui. Ce n'est donc pas le cas. Oui. Oui. Je pense que c'est probablement ce qui se passe de plus en plus, mais... Jonathan : Beaucoup plus de gens vivent dans les villes. L.M. : Mais non, j'ai aimé. Oui, j'aime le plein air. C'est toujours le cas, mais pas autant. En tout cas, oui, parce que j'avais l'habitude de faire du ski de fond et du ski alpin. Quand j'étais à l'Université de l'Ontario, je faisais probablement encore plus de ski alpin, puis j'ai commencé à faire du ski de fond. Mais oui, non, j'aime le plein air. Alors oui, j'ai fait de la randonnée et... Jonathan : Il y a du ski à Ottawa ? (32:06) L.M. : Eh bien, il y a le camp fortune. Je ne sais pas si le Camp Fortune existe encore. Je veux dire que ce n'est pas le cas. Beaucoup de ski A. Je ne peux pas l'oublier. Il n'y a pas grand-chose, c'est sûr. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Jonathan : C'est toujours là. Ohh c'est au nord de Gatineau. L.M. : Dans la région de Gatineau, oui. Jonathan : Mais toujours près d'Ottawa. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai, parce que c'était l'autre chose. Il y avait pas mal de, vous savez, vous savez, j'avais des amis qui allaient au Québec pour boire, vous savez, ils allaient à la Chaudière ( ??). C'était un endroit très connu. Jonathan : Parce que l'âge légal était plus bas ? L.M. : Un peu comme. Les heures étaient plus longues. Jonathan : Oh. Ah, tu peux boire plus. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Je n'ai jamais bu, donc je ne connais pas ce genre de choses. Pensez-vous qu'il y ait des choses spéciales dans les années 1970 ? Comme quelque chose qui ne se reproduit plus jamais en matière de rencontres ou, vous savez, de vie sociale ? (32:55) L.M. : Non, je veux dire, comme je l'ai dit, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement probablement en termes de, de, de, de, de femmes se sentant plus libres que par le passé et vous savez, capables. D'avoir plus de contrôle sur leur vie. Mais cela s'est poursuivi, bien qu'il y ait maintenant, aux États-Unis, des gens que nous n'avons peut-être pas, il y a probablement des cinglés ici aussi, qui veulent mettre un terme à cela. Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : Vous savez, certains des républicains fous qui essayaient de prendre le contrôle, d'enlever le contrôle aux femmes et d'interdire l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances, je trouve incroyable que l'on puisse essayer de faire un pas en arrière à ce stade, mais je pense que c'est une bonne chose. Jonathan : Oui, c'est fou. Ça fait quoi, 50 ans ? (34:07) L.M. : Oui. Je pense que c'est tout simplement ça. Je pense qu'il s'agit d'hommes très conservateurs qui se sentent menacés par tout, par les femmes, par les personnes d'autres races. Je ne sais pas quel est leur problème, mais ils le sont. Jonathan : Oui. Je crois qu'on s'est un peu trop attardé là-dessus. Oui, il s'agit des années 70, pas d'aujourd'hui. L.M. : Oui. D'ACCORD. Je suis désolée. Oui, non. Mais je pense que c'était le début. Je ne dirais pas que c'est quelque chose qui s'est produit à l'époque et que nous n'avons jamais revu. Mais je pense qu'il y a eu des changements significatifs qui se sont produits à l'époque et qui se poursuivent encore aujourd'hui en termes de rôles des hommes et des femmes. En ce qui concerne les rôles des hommes et des femmes. Jonathan : OK, donc il y a eu un grand changement social pendant cette période. (35:07) L.M. : Le temps, mais je pense que c'est là. Oui, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement important. Jonathan : Mais en même temps, ça n'affectait pas vraiment ce que vous faisiez pour vous amuser et tout ça. L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas que mes centres d'intérêt aient particulièrement changé, j'ai grandi en m'intéressant aux arts et au théâtre et c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, c'est ce que j'ai fait à l'époque, c'est ce que j'ai fait avant, c'est ce que j'ai fait depuis, je suis toujours la même personne et je continue à m'intéresser à ce qui m'entoure. Jonathan : OK. Oui, bon, d'accord. Et la dernière, dernière, dernière partie. Il s'agit du harcèlement sexuel. Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été obligées de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure l'université surveillait-elle les événements sociaux ou les réunions à l'époque à cause du harcèlement sexuel ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas du tout. (36:14) Jonathan : Pas du tout ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Est-ce qu'il y a eu, est-ce que vous pensez qu'il y a eu, comme un pamphlet du genre, oh, ne, ne violez pas ? Je suis désolée. L.M. : Eh bien. Oui, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que ce genre de choses ait vraiment été mis en lumière à ce moment-là. Je pense que c'est beaucoup plus récent. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il y avait des problèmes à l'époque, mais je ne pense pas que je veux dire, évidemment, sur la base de ce que nous savons maintenant, il y a eu tout un tas de mauvais comportements pendant longtemps et il y en avait aussi à l'époque, mais ce n'était pas, ce n'était pas mis en lumière à l'époque. C'est quelque chose qui s'est produit plus récemment. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que l'université a considéré cela comme un problème ou qu'elle s'est dit, oh, c'est juste une affaire personnelle ? (37:05) L.M. : Oui, je pense qu'ils le considéraient, je ne pense pas qu'ils le considéraient comme un problème, mais je ne pense pas que c'était vraiment sur le radar. Je veux dire, évidemment, vous savez, si, si un viol se produisait, les gens s'en inquiéteraient, mais... Jonathan : OK. D'ACCORD. L.M. : Mais pas moi. C'est oui. Jonathan : Mais l'université n'a pas fait tout ce qui était en son pouvoir pour l'empêcher. L.M. : Non, il n'y avait rien de proactif à l'époque en ce qui concerne... Jonathan : OK. L.M. : -au viol. A ces questions, je suppose que c'est ainsi que j'aurais. Pour le dire. Jonathan : D'accord. Et oh, j'ai oublié quelque chose pour la dernière chose, la dernière chose concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Je suis désolé. Et donc les deux dernières questions. Parce que le projet spécifique est, il y a beaucoup d'intérêt pour l'amour libre. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Pensez-vous que c'était accepté ou non ? Ou... (37:49) L.M. : Oui, c'est ça. La différence entre la génération de mes parents et la mienne, c'est que les relations sexuelles avant le mariage étaient acceptées dans ma génération, dans les années 70, alors qu'elles ne l'étaient pas dans les générations précédentes. Et je pense, oui, je pense que c'était accepté dans les années 70 à cause de la disponibilité du contrôle des naissances. Jonathan : OK. Est-ce que vous pensez ? Mais pensez-vous que c'était peut-être même encouragé, comme si les gens, à cause du contrôle des naissances, voulaient avoir beaucoup de relations sexuelles ? L.M. : Je pense que c'était probablement beaucoup plus, c'était plus, il y avait plus de gens qui s'engageaient dans une activité sexuelle que dans la génération de mes parents, probablement, oui. (38:58) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents ou les parents d'autres personnes, s'inquiétaient de ce genre de choses, comme, oh, "n'ayez pas de relations sexuelles avant le mariage". Est-ce qu'ils vous l'ont déjà dit ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Oui, je pense que cela aurait été comme je, je veux dire que je n'ai jamais parlé de sexe avec mes parents. Nous n'avons jamais eu cette conversation... Jonathan : Ah oui. L.M. : ... mais je me souviens qu'à un moment donné, il en a été question parce que, comme je l'ai dit, j'avais l'habitude d'aller camper avec mon petit ami. Et d'autres choses encore. Alors je pense que mes parents étaient probablement inquiets de ce qui pouvait se passer et, vous savez, s'ils étaient inquiets, ils avaient raison. Si ça les concernait, ils avaient raison d'être inquiets, mais on n'en a jamais parlé et, vous savez... Jonathan : Donc on ne savait jamais s'ils étaient comme... (39:57) L.M. : -J'utilisais un moyen de contraception, donc c'était, vous savez, pour moi, une chose naturelle à faire à cet âge. Pour mes parents, cela ne l'aurait probablement pas été et ils auraient préféré que mon comportement imite le leur, mais c'était une autre époque. C'était une autre époque. Jonathan : Hmm, ça ouais, c'est pareil maintenant tu sais. Mes parents, ils ne veulent pas que je leur ressemble, oui. L.M. : Bien sûr. Oui, je pense que c'est l'attente des parents parce que c'est ce qu'ils savent, et donc c'est eux, ils sont. Les gens semblent toujours trouver le changement difficile. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. Bon, en fait, c'est toutes les questions. D'accord, d'accord, parfait. L.M. : Très bien. J'espère que cela a fonctionné cette fois-ci et... Jonathan : Oui, je l'espère vraiment. Ugh. L.M. : Oui. Oui, je suis désolée que vous vous soyez retrouvée coincée avec un sujet qui n'est pas, pas, en dehors de la norme de ce que le projet recherche. Jonathan : Eh bien, pour être juste, je pense que vous êtes beaucoup plus proche que d'autres personnes parce que, apparemment, beaucoup d'autres étudiants ont eu du mal à contacter la, la première personne qu'on leur a donnée. (41:04) L.M. : Oh, c'est vrai ? Jonathan : Oui. Et apparemment, comme il y avait beaucoup de problèmes, le professeur a dit : "Connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui est allé à l'école dans les années 1970 ?" Oui, n'importe qui. En fait, c'est comme si on demandait à ses propres parents s'ils étaient allés à l'université à l'époque, alors je pense qu'on est beaucoup plus proche de ce qu'ils attendaient. L.M. : Vous savez comment ? Oui. Savez-vous comment ils ont dressé la liste ? Comment ont-ils fait, comment ont-ils fait. Jonathan : La liste des personnes ? L.M. : Oui, la liste des contacts avec lesquels vous travailliez. Jonathan : Je n'en ai aucune idée. Je sais juste que le professeur comme vous savez qu'il a contacté beaucoup de monde. Comment comment vous joindre ? L.M. : Eh bien, il est intéressant de noter que dans mon cas, je n'ai pas été contacté directement, mais dans le cadre du contact, il y avait un, un de mes amis qui était le seul autre anglophone dans le programme que je suivais à l'Université d'Ottawa et dans le programme de maîtrise et, pour une raison quelconque, il était sur la liste et il me l'a transmise en disant, vous savez, au cas où je serais intéressé, il pensait que je l'avais probablement reçue aussi, puisqu'il l'avait reçue, mais je ne l'avais pas reçue. C'est pourquoi j'étais curieux parce que je me disais que j'avais donné de l'argent à l'Université d'Ottawa, que j'étais toujours sur la liste et que j'étais toujours exclu de l'Université d'Ottawa (41:57). Jonathan : Ohh. L.M. : Mais je ne l'ai pas fait. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas sur leur liste, alors j'étais curieuse de savoir comment ils y étaient parvenus. Parce que je veux dire, ça ne devrait pas être le cas. Jonathan : D'accord. Je pense qu'en ce qui vous concerne plus particulièrement, vous avez obtenu votre diplôme en 1976, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : C'est exact. Jonathan : Au départ, si je me souviens bien, ils voulaient les gens qui avaient obtenu leur diplôme en 1974. (42:58) L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : C'est un peu bizarre, et oui, vous étiez juste, comme, juste en dehors de la liste. L.M. : C'est exact. Je pense que nous étions en quelque sorte à la fin de la vague. Je veux dire, je pense qu'à bien des égards, la plupart des choses vraiment excitantes se sont produites à la fin des années 60. C'est donc à ce moment-là que ces idées étaient plus nouvelles, si vous voulez. C'est ça, oui. Nous étions donc à la fin de cette période. Jonathan : Je crois qu'il a dit qu'il avait consulté les annuaires et la base de données de l'université, par exemple, et qu'il avait contacté les adresses électroniques des gens, qu'il avait envoyé un courriel à tout le monde pour voir qui répondait. L.M. : D'accord. Oui, parce que c'est là que réside le défi. Vous avez la liste des diplômés, mais vous n'avez aucune idée de l'endroit où ils se trouvent aujourd'hui. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi je n'ai pas été contactée parce que, peut-être que c'est comme vous dites, c'est juste que mon ami qui était là à la même époque, nous étions là pour la même chose. Nous y étions tous les deux de 74 à 76. Nous étions là les deux mêmes années, alors je ne sais pas vraiment pourquoi ils l'auraient trouvé lui et pas moi. Jonathan : Oui, je pense que c'est vraiment le cas. Peut-être que tu lui as manqué. Oui, tu sais qu'il... Oui, tu le sais. C'est comme ça, oui, c'est comme ça. (44:03) L.M. : Eh bien, de toute façon, eh bien, je... J'espère que vous êtes vous et vos amis. Combien de personnes avez-vous dû interviewer ? Jonathan : Euh, non, juste toi. Il y en avait un. J'avais une autre personne, mais elle a dit qu'elle était trop occupée pour travailler avec moi. L.M. : OK. Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, honnêtement, je pense que j'ai beaucoup de chance que vous ayez répondu, oui. L.M. : Eh bien, cela vient probablement de mon expérience d'assistante pédagogique. J'ai de la sympathie pour les étudiants. Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : De rien, et je vous souhaite bonne chance dans vos études. Jonathan : Merci. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. L.M. : De rien. (45:02) Jonathan : Oui, bonne journée. L.M. : Vous aussi. Au revoir. Jonathan : Oui. Je vous remercie. Au revoir. (45:05) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., L (pseudonym) (Interview) Description An account of the resource Interview about uOttawa in the 1970s, including the dating/social life, feminism, and a little politics. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, 45 minutes, 10 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Person An individual. Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Bourget, Ontario, Canada. Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1967-1969 University of Ottawa, ? - 1973 University of Ottawa, ? - 1980 University of Ottawa, ? -1993 Degree BA BA MA Career education Religious Culture Catholic Christian Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hurtubise, Madeleine. Language A language of the resource French Description An account of the resource An interview regarding pop culture and the female experience on the UOttawa campus in the 1970s. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-17 Relation A related resource https://youtu.be/ipSeR6DD0tc 6 minutes, 45 seconds to 1 hour, 2 minutes, 35 seconds Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 10 minutes, 32 seconds Type The nature or genre of the resource person Person An individual. Birth Date 1951 Birthplace Cheshire, England Schools Attended Oxford University Harvard University Degree BA MA Occupation Quantitative Economics Ethnicity English French Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life atheist Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B., M. (pseudonym)