1 10 55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1954 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1972-1976 University of Ottawa, 1979-1984 Degree MA BA Ethnicity English Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Career services Biographical Text Executive Director, Society of Fire Protection Engineers, 1997-2004. Executive Director, Fire Protection Research Foundation, 2004-2014 Vice President, Nation Fire Protection Association, 2014- Present. Religious Culture Other Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bates, Victoria Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Almand, Kathleen Location The location of the interview Massachusetts, United States (via Microsoft Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Victoria: I'm here with Kathleen Almand and we are doing our interview with alumni from students from the 1970s here at the University of Ottawa. I'm in Ottawa ON Canada and Kathleen is in the State of Massachusetts in the United States. And I think we're just gonna get started. Ok, so the first main question, the main theme is about the impact of popular culture. Kathleen: Good. Victoria: So the main question is that culture historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture.Ottawa was a bilingual institution and we went and we went to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. So the main question is there were less electronics and Canada society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did Ottawa students do for fun? Kathleen: Ok, so I was an engineering student, right? Victoria: Right. Kathleen: So there’s kind of a whole culture around that, right? This will vary by obviously the type of students, so drinking was a big thing with engineering students, right. So I would say we spend our leisure time… Well, we didn’t have a lot of leisure time because we had a lot of homework and stuff like that. I remember going to parties but I didn’t have any money, you know. So I didn’t go out to any clubs or anything like that. You’d mentioned previous music, I did go to one concert, Grand Funk Railroad, right. So I was very interested in music. I am a musician, actually a classical musician, but I was interested in music and so I did, you know, listen to rock’n’roll and stuff like that. But, I didn’t really go out to clubs to do that, particularly we just, you know, have parties, we get together and it was just socializing with my university friends. I was living with my boyfriend until I married him in the last year of college. But he was not a college kid, so we did hang out with some of his friends as well but I would say that’s the same. That’s pretty much how we would spend our leisure time. Victoria: What instrument did you play? Or do you still play? Kathleen: Violin. Victoria: Ohh, I played the Alto Sax Kathleen: Ohh Cool. Victoria: Yeah. Did you play at school at all, or was it just something you did for fun on the side? Kathleen: No, I played, you know, in high school and then I stopped completely before I went to University and I didn’t pick it up again until I was 40. So, I’m now playing, you know, I played after that. So you’ll pick it up again if you’ve stopped. Victoria: Yeah. My music teacher always said that the one thing that people remember is always how to play an instrument in music. So I've stopped too, but hopefully when I'm done and I have more time, I'd definitely love to be myself again because it’s such a cool talent. Kathleen:Yeah, So I didn't really do, you know, I’m trying to think if I was in any clubs or anything like that at the University of that. I wasn’t, I told you in that email I sent you that my daughter was born in fourth year so I was pretty busy with that in fourth year but prior to that I don’t remember specifically being in any clubs or anything, you know. I went to parties, I went skating on the canal. I wasn’t into sports, other than, you know, skating on the canal. So I don’t know, I was kind of bored, most engineers' lives are pretty boring, so yeah. Victoria: No, no, I’m sure you were so busy with school and you wanted to dedicate yourself and do well. So it’s hard to make time for something. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. Victoria: So, umm, you said you didn’t really go out to any clubs or anything. You mostly if you had a party, it was just with your friends. Kathleen: yeah. Victoria: Do you remember what were some of the more popular hangout spots on campus? Kathleen: No, I don’t. I don’t know. I mean. When I was there. I mean, I think it was like a student thing, like a student union thing or whatever you call it. But I wasn’t really associated. The engineers were kind of off to the side over the, you know, so I don’t, I don’t really think there was a lot we interacted with. I mean there was the Byward Market, which was a big social bar, and so you know, that’s where people went, I guess if they had the money to go. Victoria: UOttawa was a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? Kathleen: Umm. Victoria: Did francophones and Anglophones enroll in the same class? I remember you told me that mostly francophone students were participating in the arts. Umm, but did you guys participate in any of the same? I know you said you didn’t do any clubs together, but were there any bilingual institutions you really remember? Kathleen: No. And you know, there was, umm, I think as I mentioned, you know, there was a reasonable number of francophone guys in my class. You know, they came from Northern Ontario and some of them came from Quebec, cause Ottawa is the most northerly university, right? So we did draw from the northern interior and some of them were francophone and not, you know, their English was very, right? so I didn’t interact with them and I don't remember any of them. I remember the French guys hanging out in one group and the English guys hanging out in another. I mean then Asian guys were definitely kind of in their own world as well, you know, but that picture I sent you, I was just looking at them. and yeah, that was kind of my group. but I don't think any of them were French Canadians, but there might have been one that I think back and was again another engineering student. so yeah, there was a little bit of like, you know, in our own little sectors there. I wouldn't say it was huge, you know, it was a pretty small class. civil engineering. there's 20 some in the class, pretty much each year 20 something people. so I don't know what class sizes are now, but that's about what it was. it was a little larger second year and then it kind of dropped off. One of the things, if you read the article I sent you, I theoretically was interested in the University of Ottawa because it was bilingual. Carelton had an engineering program which was actually better at the time. I don’t think it is now, I think Ottawa’s is better, but I was interested in any University that had a little more diversity to it. When I was 18 years old, I again, I did not know I was going into engineering when I applied to the University of Ottawa. I thought I was going to be a math student. My scholarship was from the insurance company, I thought I was gonna study actual science and so on. So I wasn’t really expecting that to be English guys or guy's full stop. You know, I didn’t know it was going to be like that. So it was all very different when I got there, but I was attracted by the sense that this was about the equal place I wanted. Victoria: You had said you had one friend who was maybe francophone. Do you know if there were any anglophones and francophones that dated each other? Or would you say that was all kind of separate as well? Kathleen: I might not be the right person to ask that question, because I was female. I tended to hang out with the older guys. There were several older guys in my class who had taken a technology degree first and then realized they weren’t making the money. So they came back to engineering, so some of them were married and had girlfriends. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: So I was looking at that picture and I know that picture was taken 20 years later, but of that group, almost all of them had girlfriends prior to coming to the University. So one of them actually did have a francophone girlfriend, one of the guys was from Timmons, way way up north. But again it was a very male environment. It’s like this social event mentioned, there was a Friday night, TGIF in the University Hall. But I and the nurses were allowed to come to that because they were in the building, but there weren't any other women or young women from the University coming to that event, it was kind of segregated in a way or so. Victoria: You said you were one of two women in your program right? Kathleen: I think it’s three. I’m thinking back, so I was the only one in civil engineering in my year, but I know there was a mechanical engineer woman and there was a chemical engineer woman. So then the other one was electrical. There were only four, there may be more now there’s probably environmental stuff too, but then there was only the four. We only shared a few classes in second year, but you know the more specialized you go into the discipline. Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: So I, and actually the mechanical engineer woman, was a francophone. Now that I remember you mentioning that, we were kind of connected because we were the only women, the chemical engineer was anglophone. We didn’t actually socialize at all. We didn’t, we just had our own things going on and stuff. I think there was a sense of connection there because we were the only women. This was also at a time which is interesting, and I think culturally interesting. I've noticed this because I've done a lot of mentoring of women engineers, you know, In my world life, we were more interested in pretending we weren’t women. I don’t mean by trying to look like a man, but that we’re not women engineers, we’re engineers, right? Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: And so we didn’t, we deliberately didn’t hang out with other women. We were trying to say we were just like everybody else, treat us like everybody else on that stuff. And id that really has, in my view, has changed a great deal in these 50 years. Since I was at school where the women engineers that I, the young women engineers that I have mentored at my office, they want to be together. They want to walk together. They want to share their issues and problems. They want to be identified as a woman engineer who has special needs. The special needs like, you know, we have families. We have to take care of each other and things like that in my day were absolutely not different. Don’t treat us differently. Treat us as equals. We were looking for equality, not unequal. So it’s interesting, you know how far things have changed in that regard, because now it is unequal, but it's unequal positively. In other words, sort of special treatment in some cases, right, which we weren’t, we were determined that we didn’t need any special anything because we were africa that it would just marginalize us, so to speak. Victoria: I forgot to ask, but which years did you attend the University? Kathleen: 1972 and then my graduation, I think I graduated spring of 77’. I am an undergraduate. I would have graduated 76’ but I was pregnant, had to wait and take another course or two and finish. I did my masters part time because I had a child and I was working, so I was a single mother and getting my masters and all this stuff. Victoria: How? Kathleen: I think it took me between two and three years. You can see in my transcript or I can look at it after and see, so I think I would have graduated close to 1980 by the time I was through the Master's or maybe even a little bit beyond that. Victoria: Ok, perfect. Thank you. I meant to ask you that at the beginning, but it totally slipped my mind. We talked about parties, what it was like there. But we kind of use the term ‘Party Culture’, like in Ontario there’s like a different party school where they have a bit more of a culture around street parties and house parties. Did that really exist in Ottawa or since it was a bigger city you kind of had the bars instead? Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: So you didn’t really have a party culture on campus? Kathleen: Yeah, well, I didn’t live on campus. I think that the folks who did would know more about that. I know there were fraternities, I don’t know if there were sororities. I don’t know anything about all that kind of stuff. And I think there were like in any place, even if it is a big city, there are houses around the University and students like there. They rent places and stuff, whether those parties spilled out onto the street, I have no idea because I wasn’t a part of it, I lived in the West End. Victoria: The Vietnam War was taking place around the same time you were attending University. Do you remember what the student body’s general opinion was about it, or if people just carried on with their regular studies. Kathleen: I don’t remember any conversations about the Vietnam War when I was at school. I think the one thing I noticed when I got my first job, when I went out to work and there were a couple of Draft Dodgers working there, were American architects and engineers. One was an architect and one was an engineer and you know, so they were very anti-Vietnam War obviously. So I guess if I had to make a wild guess, we would have been anti Vietnam War because of sympathy for the students. But again I think that there was very little conversation about politics. I mean engineers are really boring people. Victoria:Do you remember any protests taking place at school or not? Kathleen: Nothing. Victoria: All right, ok. This is a fun one, I think. Ok, rock’n’roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see rock’n’roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? Kathleen: So my parents were very old. My mother was 45 when I was born, so they really had [shrug]. I wasn’t living at home when I was at university. I was living with my boyfriend. And they never placed their views on me in any way, so I don’t even know what their views were. And obviously, they’re both dead on that issue. My connection to rock’n’roll culture, so to speak. It was really in high school, in high school the musicians that played in the orchestra, they also had a garage band, right? So I would go and head them in the garage band. There were also a lot of drugs in my high school, so that was kind of a Nepean high school and another school nearby and so there was a drug culture that also existed in musicians. More broadly than that, the 60s culture piece, I think had more actually at the end of my high school years then I did at university because they were all these hard working engineer conservative boys. I'm sure that there was some of that kind of stuff at the university, but I was not really exposed to it through my university experience. My boyfriend, who was a naughty university student. He hung out with some of the drug culture stuff a little bit. So I got a little bit of exposure to it, but again that was probably more at the end of high school than it was at university. Victoria: Alright ok. So we’re kind of onto the second theme, which is about the female experience and obviously being in a program dominated by men. You probably have a bit to say. Ok, so culture historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? Kathleen: I might have been a little early, but what happened to me when I was at high school considering what to go to university about. Nobody ever mentioned engineering as a possible career. I had no idea. I never thought that I heard of it, but basically I hadn’t heard of it. I didn’t know any engineers and most women find their pathway into engineers by a father or some relative. You know, kind of so my point was mathematics, and I chose that because I am opposed to the arts, which I also enjoy. I chose math and sciences because I wanted to get a job. So I did that and then when I went to first year, which was this combined science and engineering program in the first year, I had to take an elective and I didn’t want to take biology or something. So I just took this thing called introduction to engineering because I just thought it was a little bit more mathematically oriented and it was perfect for me because my focus of interest was in the kinds of math that support engineering like calculus. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: Basically that was my specialty. So I went from thinking I was going to be a mathematician or something, whatever that means to, oh, I guess I could possibly be an engineer. So it was really the coursework that introduced me to it, not an individual or anybody, and certainly not by looking around at the other people in engineering because they were all male. So for whatever reason, the fact that they were male, everybody was male, didn’t bother me. So I kind of just went into it blindly. I don’t remember going in consciously thinking that I’m breaking down the barriers to female entry and you know nothing like that. I was just like, ok, I think this is the right career for me because based on my sense of abilities, my academic abilities. My memory is I don’t remember having been treated differently, badly, specially, anything like that. I don’t and actually not even by the other students. I again, tended to hang out with the ones that were familiar with women, the ones who were married. Although I wasn’t older, I was a regular age of a regular person who’s gone through high school and university. Several of these guys had been working for a few years so I felt comfortable there. I obviously noticed that I was the only woman. You know what was astonishing for me is that it never occurred to me that this could be a career. And so, that’s something I've done in my life is to go and make presentations to high schools and girl scout groups and stuff. So that they are aware when they see a woman making a presentation in engineering that they can self identity, maybe think ‘i could do that’. You know, if they’re a woman, right? So, the university experience for women, I’m trying to remember, was a very long time ago. Victoria: Okay. Kathleen: I’m trying to think if there were things I felt excluded from, but there weren't. You know that one experience, this is relevant I think. So in civil engineering there is a three week period. I don’t think it’s three weeks anymore. We had to take three weeks out of the summer between second and third year to go to survey camp. What was called the university at the time, and I think they still do own property up in the Gatineau Hills fairly far up. That had been a retreat for the fathers who had organically run the university, the Catholic Fathers or something. So it was a bunch of cabins on a lake, and you could probably find out about this. I don’t remember the name of the lake, It’ll come to me in a couple of days. But we had to go up there and this was hard because we had to earn money in the summer to pay for university. Some of the guys in particular and we had to take three weeks out of that, no job right to go to the service camp. And so we learned, I believe it was two weeks of learning the techniques of surveying because a lot of civil engineers say it’s an application of civil engineering and so one. Even though you wouldn’t do surveying as an engineer, you had to understand it and use the data from it and so one. And then one week was other things like testing waste and practical hands-on things. So I'm going to this survey camp with 25 guys right now. They all knew I had a boyfriend. All this kind of stuff, but I mean, you know, culture that was a little interesting. That's all. Victoria: The only woman were you? Kathleen: Pardon me? Victoria: The only woman? Kathleen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Victoria: Yeah, Ok. Kathleen: So it was just our class at that time and they had put the guys in cabins that sleep 4 or something. And I had my own cabin. We would party in the evenings and things like that. But I never had a bad experience from any of the guys or from the professors or anything like that. So I look back on that, I mean, I was completely naive. You know, 22 years old, but you know, so I was separate, but I was together. I mean, they gave me a separate place to sleep, but I was included. I had to do everything that they all had to do, etcetera, and I was as strong as some of them. Some of them were not obviously, so that was an interesting thing there. Victoria: Well, what an experience I can, I can’t imagine. And then did you have to pay tuition or like, did you have to pay to go to that retreat or was it all included? Kathleen: No, I don’t think so. I think it was part of the tuition, you know, for the year and it was. I think that's right, I can’t really remember. I'm sure you know because the biggest financial penalty was not being able to work for three weeks in the summer. So, and I think what I heard later is that they shortened it because of that issue about losing revenue for the students. They may still have that. I don't really know, but it was…it was a really good experience and I really got to know my classmates really well and all that stuff. So despite the fact they were boys, right? Yeah, so to speak. Victoria: And then you were telling me on the phone yesterday about the nursing students and how they joined you in like the engineering buildings. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. Victoria: Can you just tell me…can you just kind of repeat what you said yesterday about that? Kathleen: Sure, I will. And you know I told you that there was an engineering building which is way down the end of campus and of course that the newer engineering building I think is further down the end of campus . But science? The science faculty was around, somewhat nearby the engineering building was the furthest one down the end, and I believe it was during the time I was there. Or maybe it was before I got there. The nursing faculty moved into the building and our thinking and maybe I made this up or maybe someone actually told me this, but the lore amongst the engineering guys was that they moved the nursing students in there so that there would be women and men in the building and there would be some, you know, so the engineers wasn’t a totally male environment, there would be engineers around there and invited me to this TGIF event every Friday, and you know, we’d see them in the hallways and things like that. So whether that was a deliberate move on the part of the university, I suspect it might have been or it could have just been coincidental. “There’s some space in engineering to stick the nurses in there”, but it's a bit odd, when you think about..you think they just stick more chemistry classes or something there, you know? So because the engineer building was full of laboratories or engineers and stuff like that. So it's an interesting bit of history of the university to find out if that was a deliberate thing or not. Victoria: Did having more women in the building make you feel like it was a more inclusive environment, or did it almost make you kind of like, look at it a little, weirdly and like, ohhh, you know, this is why they put them here? Kathleen: Yeah, I would say the latter. I didn’t have anything to do with them. I mean, I didn't share any classes with them. So I didn't get to know any of them at all. I mean I really identify with my classroom right? So we were a little world unto ourselves. Victoria: Yeah, you had your own little community and it almost, yeah. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: The next section is about ideology and generational differences. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parent's generation. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: I feel like that happens with every new group, to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? Kathleen: I think there was certainly and from my perspective for me personally, there was some rebellion, right? I mean obviously right, I moved out at 18 with my boyfriend. A terrible thing to do you know, for old parents and all this kind of jazz. So I was on the fringes of the drug culture and all that stuff, but that was a personal thing. I didn’t mobilize to change the world. It was just kind of rejecting the value system of my parents. That’s not the same as working for a better world at all, and that was absent from my college experience. And I'm sure that's not true at all in the arts faculty. But the engineers just had their heads down, basically, so I mean, and I've become much more aware of that kind of thing as I've gotten older, obviously. But yeah, sorry. Victoria: No. Don't apologize. Did you feel discouraged from your parents for going forward with a career in STEM or like from councilors at school or anything like that? Kathleen: Yeah. Well, the fact is that the counselors in school never mentioned the possibility to me, you know, like think about it. I mean, it's pretty terrible, I mean they did encourage me not to go for a technology degree. I was so focused on getting a job I thought, I’d get a technology degree. It's only three years and they said you shouldn’t do that. You have the academic ability to, so they did that. There wasn’t any discouraging me to not get a degree, but there was never, there was literally never a mention of engineering. And from my mother, I wrote a little story about this at one time when I made the decision to go into engineering, when I was introduced to engineering at the end of the first year and decided that was going to be my major; civil engineering. My mother said to me, why would you want to do that, Cath? It was like she just, you know, I mean, I remember those words, and yet they, you know, they were obviously proud of me. You saw that thing, the scholarship but she didn't know any women who were engineers. And she, I don't think they sent me to the university to get married. They didn't do that, but she couldn't understand why I would want to study for a career that, in her mind, is not a career for women. I didn’t falter in any way. It's just she had no exposure to women and I had no exposure to women engineers. So I think back on that and I think you know why wasn’t I scared? Or why didn't I like questioning myself or anything. But i didn't do a lot of questions in those days and It truly was that I actually, when I was in first year and i was taking all these math course and I remember I even went into…I think i tried out a math club or something and it was so nerdy and the professors were so esoteric and I thought ‘could I really do this?’ You know my whole life, and I was at a time in my life at university where the real world is more real and I got the sense that the concept of applied mathematics which is what engineering is and it's also applied science. Applying it to solving problems and things like that. You know that’s what really resonated with me but that message wasn’t delivered to me and I suspect it was more delivered to men. But it was more also that they had models, I mean I've read this a few times that if you ever see a woman who’s an engineer it doesn't occur to you that you can be one. If you can see them physically or you know hear them talk or if they’re a professor or something. There are no female professors that I remember, I don't think so. It never occurs to you that you could actually do this, so that's why and I think that's why this accelerated fairly quickly, you know where once there's one woman then there's another and another and then you know now many programs. I don't know what the statistics are at Ottawa but for instance environmental engineering probably has more than 50% women right, so just getting back to your concept of wanting to make a difference in the world. I think some of you know, I know it doesn’t sound like a cause, it's not protesting and stuff but it's making a difference in the environment. You know careers that attract women–women in general often have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Maybe I'm making too broad a statement there but engineering is a way to change. Victoria: That was amazing. Thank you. Ok. Looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? So maybe not on campus, but just was there anything you remember when you were in the school that you were just like, oh, this is completely wrong. Kathleen: Yeah, so I remember the very first time I met a black person was at university. I had never met, I probably saw one on the street or something but Ottawa at that time, unlike now, I believe was a very white place. And I also had friends in highschool and I was aware of the bigotry towards French Canadians. I was aware that some people had those people. I'd had a girlfriend who would say some things to–a high school friend– you know, say something to me. My father was very ‘don't behave like that’. I mean he was really a guy with ideals. So in terms of that kind of stuff, basic stuff. So, I do believe there was a bigotry towards French Canafians and I met that in my work just after I got out of university. Yeah, so that and I and that was not a good thing in Canadian society. I don’t know if that still exists anymore. My daughter lives in Ottawa now. I never talked to her about such a thing, but so that was not a good thing. And that depended on what level you’re working at and lower level kind of folks, there was more of that. I mean, there was this intellectual Pierre Trudeau was around at that time. So he was like, everybody was in love with him and stuff like that. So that was different. But that was not a good thing. I think, but in terms of what I was aware of, that was not good about Canadian society. I guess and for me, this has become a kind of big issue. I don't mean just the French Canadian side of it, but I didn't grow up in a multicultural environment at all. Is it like a British environment, basically right? And I think that was not a good thing. You know, now I know Canada's kind of gone one way and then the other way. I mean so welcoming to immigrants, which is just a wonderful thing. I think that kind of issue has been addressed, but i'm trying to think of some other things i remember being thinking that i lived in a better country than the united states. I really did feel that way. I was proud, not the flag waving proud. I did feel that way, I mean, I probably still feel that way to a certain extent. It's changed somewhat obviously. I live here now, (Massacusets) so yeah. I know that's not a very deep answer, but that's the one thing I can think of. I again, i didn't know the world. I'd never been outside the country. The only country I ever compared us to was Britain or the US. Victoria: Just as an add-on, did you feel that the political system at the time was like democratic, fair and responsive to citizens' needs? If you can remember. Kathleen: Yeah, I think so. My father was a kind of an armchair socialist. You know I don't know that term, but he did talk about politics, but he wasn't angry about it. I think my knowledge of politics really came from just listening to my father. I wasn't involved and engaged. I didn't sense that we lived in a bad place and I was happy to–you know, I thought things were good. I really did. Victoria: no, that's good. It always is, I don't know. I feel kind of the same way now. I feel good in Canada, but I'm in political science and the more I learn about politics and the more I learn about the past, obviously it's always changing, but I always still feel kind of–I feel good. Kathleen Yeah, it's a well respected country, pretty much, we could, Canada could contribute more to, you know, defense and things like that. That's the one area where they are not quite doing their share. But I mean it in lots of ways. I hear my daughter. I hear my daughters are very interested in politics. So she kind of, I think she's, you know, just the difference, I mean to me the difference between liberals and the conservative in Canada is so small, you know that. The other thing is it's almost really like a one, one party country, but it's all good. And you know all the social benefits, I think the standard of living. I left when I was thirty, and would be in the same position if I’d stayed? I don't really know. I think I felt it was a small pond, that was part of the reason for leaving. Not entirely, I mean I married an American. You know what? I think about it, it was a small pond and the opportunity, you know, big fish in a small pond. I wasn't a big fish when I left, but I think I definitely had more opportunities here. But I mean, that's just the nature of the country, the size of the country and the number of people and the number of business opportunities and things like that, right. And I think by becoming so much more global, so much more welcoming, so many people from so many other countries, you’ve kind of brought in bits and pieces of other ponds, you know, so, so that's great. Victoria: Ok, sorry, let me see here. Ok, so this next part is kind of about the free love movement. Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology, changed gender relations and the dating practices of the early 1970s. Would you agree with that statement and what did dating look like back in, like back at UOttawa? Kathleen: Yeah, I'm sure it did. I know it was right at the cusp of that obviously. I don't know how you know, I don't know what it was like 5 years before, cause I, I mean sex was everywhere. So there’s a lot of sex around, lots of sex and drugs and rock’n’roll, yeah. Victoria: I like that, ‘sex and drugs and rock’n’roll. So how did your generation look at family and marriage? You kind of mentioned that you had a but some of you classmates were older and they were already kind of married and settled. Kathleen: Yeah. Victoria: Was that kind of like, you finished school and you got married or what? What's your opinion on that? Kathleen: I don't think there was an automatic assumption that's gonna happen. I think that was changin when I was at university and again, you know, engineers are conservative people generally. So they would be on that end of the spectrum. I did know lots of people that were living with people, that kind of thing and obviously birth control helped with all of that. I think you know that we were open to different ways of and to have multiple partners too to a certain extent. I mean my situation was different obviously. I mean, in a way, it was. In a way, it wasn't. I did meet this guy when I was in highscool and went to live with him, but then I got pregnant and I got married. So I don't know, perhaps today I would have. I don't know, but I'm not sure it was, but it's probably the right thing to do. So no, I think we were, that is something that you know we weren't behind the times necessarily in, in canada. Victoria: Ok, yeah. No, that makes perfect sense, thank you. Ok, we're nearing the end. This is the last little section. This is just a disclaimer that this last part is about sexuality and harassment. It's totally optional. It's up to you if you want. I can read the questions and then you can kind of decide if you want to respond. So the first question is that many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? Kathleen: They didn't, as far as i know Victoria: Like today on campus, this is an example. We have these little buttons, like the emergency little silos maybe every block or so and if you've pressed the button, a big alarm goes off and you know, people will come to your locations. It's if you were being followed or felt unsafe on campus or we have a walk home program. Kathleen. No. Victoria: So you can go to the university center and you can get a buddy. And we also have I think it's a voluntary thing, but thetre;s also student kinds of paramedics, I'll say that loosely, on campus that will monitor areas during big homecoming nights or parties on the weekend. Did anything like that exist while you were there? Kathleen: I don’t think so. No, I wasn't aware of it. Again, if i'd lived near the university or on campus. I wasn't involved in the nightlife on campus at all. Victoria: Right. Kathleen: I don’t think I was even anywhere at night, or evening. But certainly not in any of the social events that, I guess no, not that I was aware of Victoria: Ohh. Kathleen: It's only maybe that I just wasn't aware of it. Victoria: The next question we kind of talked about already but just about premarital sex, but I was wondering what the perception of that was like on campus. Was it viewed negatively, accepted or even encouraged at all? Kathleen: I don’t think there was any way to encourage it, but it certainly was accepted/ you know, it was totally common, totally common. Victoria: Perfect, and then this is the last one. It just says did members of your parents generation worry about premarital sex? Kathleen: Uh, well. There's no one answer to that, right? I don't know if the word worries me. I think they were, certainly i think my parents were aware, obviously even before i went off to live with my boyfriend, that there was premarital sex going on. But I don't, I mean the pills and things that I took away that I don't remember my mother, you know, she knew nothing about any of this. We never talked about it. Whatever. Maybe the word worry is referring to what might happen in terms of having babies and things like that, I'm sure they were worrying. Everybody would worry about a baby being born, you know, an unwanted baby being born. But again my parents' generations were probably two generations. My mother wasn’t 20 when she had me. She was 45. So she was just kind of like, I don't understand this new generation, she really left me on my own because of that. I don't mean that negatively. Victoria: No, I kind of feel the same way, like my mother, not to throw her under the bus here, but she’s 62 now, and she's kind of the same way. I don’t know how to explain it, but just having older parents i find that some of my other friends, their parents are in their early 40s and i’m like oh my. Kathleen: Yeah, they’re much more interfering Victoria: Yeah. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah, I found that too. That the other parents they’re trying to be your friend, they want you to talk to them all the time. And my mother’s like, I don't understand this stuff. Victoria: Yeah, my mother’s a baby boomer and she won’t call me, like I have to call her. Which isn't a problem but It's definitely different having an older generation of parents. Kathleen: And I think it's a positive thing Victoria. I think you’ll look back and you’ll realize that the independence that you have right now is some of that comes from your mom. It's her basically saying, in a way, it's a way of its a vote of confidence. You're probably better able to make some of these decisions than he is able to make them for you. It's a good thing. Victoria: So that kind of concludes the interview questions that were provided for me. I did have a question of my own, if you don’t mind? Kathleen: Good. Victoria: I was just wondering about technology on campus. What was required of you as a student, what were you supposed to have and what technology were they using in the classroom? Kathleen: Yeah. So there was a transition going on. I mean, there’s questions and technology all along, right. We punched computer cards. You may not even know what that is. You know, in other words, we had like mainframe computers and you learned to punch cards to feed them into your program. I mean, it was really ancient stuff. But we also had slide rules. Engineers have slide rules and were taught that I think in 3rd or 4th year. We started to get calculators that add, subtract, multiply and divide. That was it, right. That was the extent of the technology. There were no phones, no smartphones, nothing like that. So it's kind of interesting actually. And we had to provide our own slide rule, they were not very expensive and similarly the calculators. I don’t think they were very expensive today, they’re nothing right? A dollar or something, but they weren't nearly as expensive or capable. I don't really remember money being a barrier. I mean obviously I got that scholarship right. But I think my parents would have, even though they were fairly low income, my father worked in the mail room at the insurance company. And my mother was a secretary for the government. So we were not a high income family, but I think they would have been able to support my tuition and so on. You know, so that was another good thing about Canada by the way, and Canadian culture to me. I noticed a big difference in the US and the quality of access to higher quality education, it's much more universal in Canada than in the US. To me, that’s been really, I didn’t send but I strongly encouraged my daughter to go back up to Canada to university because I know she’d get, for a good price and more universal school population. So it’s not only the rich kids, but she's not following in my footsteps. She's sending her kids to private school, that's up to her. Victoria: Ok, that's awesome. I think that's everything. Thank you so so much. Kathleen: Ok, good. Transcription Translation Victoria : Je suis ici avec Kathleen Almand et nous réalisons notre interview avec d'anciens étudiants des années 1970 ici à l'Université d'Ottawa. Je suis à Ottawa, au Canada, et Kathleen se trouve dans l'État du Massachusetts, aux États-Unis. Je pense que nous allons commencer. Ok, donc la première question principale, le thème principal, c'est l'impact de la culture populaire. Kathleen : Bien. Victoria : Donc la question principale c'est que les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée.Ottawa était une institution bilingue et nous sommes allés et nous sommes allés pour mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés ensemble. La question principale est donc qu'il y avait moins d'électronique et de société canadienne dans les années 1970. Comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser ? Kathleen : D'accord, j'étais étudiante en ingénierie, n'est-ce pas ? Victoria : Oui, c'est vrai. Kathleen : Il y a donc toute une culture autour de cela, n'est-ce pas ? Cela varie évidemment selon le type d'étudiants, mais l'alcool était très présent chez les étudiants en ingénierie, n'est-ce pas ? Je dirais que nous passions notre temps libre... En fait, nous n'avions pas beaucoup de temps libre parce que nous avions beaucoup de devoirs à faire et d'autres choses du même genre. Je me souviens que j'allais à des fêtes, mais je n'avais pas d'argent. Je ne suis donc pas sorti en boîte de nuit, ni rien d'autre. Vous avez parlé de musique, j'ai assisté à un concert de Grand Funk Railroad, c'est vrai. J'étais donc très intéressé par la musique. Je suis musicien, en fait un musicien classique, mais je m'intéressais à la musique et j'écoutais du rock'n'roll et d'autres choses de ce genre. Mais je ne sortais pas vraiment en boîte de nuit pour cela, nous organisions simplement des fêtes, nous nous réunissions, et c'était juste pour socialiser avec mes amis de l'université. Je vivais avec mon petit ami jusqu'à ce que je l'épouse au cours de la dernière année d'université. Mais il n'était pas un étudiant, alors nous sortions aussi avec certains de ses amis, mais je dirais que c'est la même chose. C'est à peu près comme ça que nous passions notre temps libre. Victoria : De quel instrument jouiez-vous ? Ou en joues-tu encore ? Kathleen : Du violon. Victoria : Ohh, je jouais de l'Alto Sax Kathleen : Ohh Cool. Victoria : Oui. Est-ce que tu jouais à l'école, ou est-ce que c'était juste quelque chose que tu faisais pour t'amuser à côté ? Kathleen : Non, j'ai joué, tu sais, au lycée et puis j'ai arrêté complètement avant d'aller à l'université et je n'ai pas repris avant l'âge de 40 ans. Donc, je joue maintenant, vous savez, j'ai joué après ça. Donc vous reprenez si vous avez arrêté. Victoria : Oui. Mon professeur de musique disait toujours que la seule chose dont les gens se souviennent, c'est toujours comment jouer d'un instrument de musique. J'ai donc arrêté moi aussi, mais j'espère que lorsque j'aurai terminé et que j'aurai plus de temps, j'aimerais vraiment redevenir moi-même parce que c'est un talent tellement cool. Kathleen : Oui, je n'ai pas vraiment fait, tu sais, j'essaie de me rappeler si j'étais dans un club ou quelque chose comme ça à l'université. Je ne l'étais pas, je vous ai dit dans le courriel que je vous ai envoyé que ma fille est née en quatrième année, alors j'étais assez occupée avec ça en quatrième année, mais avant ça, je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été spécifiquement dans des clubs ou quoi que ce soit, vous savez. J'allais à des fêtes, j'allais patiner sur le canal. Je ne faisais pas de sport, à part le patinage sur le canal. Alors je ne sais pas, je m'ennuyais un peu, la vie de la plupart des ingénieurs est assez ennuyeuse, alors oui. Victoria : Non, non, je suis sûre que vous étiez très occupée par l'école et que vous vouliez vous y consacrer et réussir. C'est donc difficile de trouver du temps pour quelque chose. Kathleen : Oui, oui. Victoria : Alors, tu as dit que tu ne sortais pas vraiment en boîte de nuit ou autre. Si tu faisais la fête, c'était surtout avec tes amis. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Tu te souviens des endroits les plus populaires sur le campus ? Kathleen : Non, je ne m'en souviens pas. Je ne sais pas. Je veux dire. Quand j'étais là. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était comme un truc d'étudiants, comme un truc d'union d'étudiants ou peu importe comment vous l'appelez. Mais je n'étais pas vraiment associé. Les ingénieurs étaient un peu à l'écart, vous savez, alors je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu beaucoup d'interactions. Je veux dire qu'il y avait le marché By, qui était un grand bar social, et vous savez, c'est là que les gens allaient, je suppose s'ils avaient l'argent pour y aller. Victoria : L'Université d'Ottawa était une institution bilingue, à quel point était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique dans les années 1970 ? Kathleen : Umm. Victoria : Est-ce que les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient dans la même classe ? Je me souviens que vous m'avez dit que la plupart des étudiants francophones participaient aux arts. Umm, mais est-ce que vous avez participé aux mêmes activités ? Je sais que vous avez dit que vous ne faisiez pas de clubs ensemble, mais y avait-il des institutions bilingues dont vous vous souvenez vraiment ? Kathleen : Non. Et vous savez, il y avait, umm, je pense que comme je l'ai mentionné, vous savez, il y avait un nombre raisonnable de gars francophones dans ma classe. Vous savez, ils venaient du nord de l'Ontario et certains d'entre eux venaient du Québec, parce qu'Ottawa est l'université la plus septentrionale, n'est-ce pas ? Certains d'entre eux étaient francophones et leur anglais n'était pas très bon, alors je n'ai pas interagi avec eux et je ne me souviens d'aucun d'entre eux. Je me souviens que les Français traînaient dans un groupe et les Anglais dans un autre. Mais je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu des Canadiens français, mais il y en avait peut-être un qui, si je me souviens bien, était un autre étudiant en ingénierie. donc oui, il y avait un peu d'ambiance, vous savez, dans nos propres secteurs. Je ne dirais pas que c'était énorme, vous savez, c'était une classe assez petite. génie civil. il y a 20 personnes dans la classe, à peu près chaque année 20 quelque chose. alors je ne sais pas quelle est la taille des classes maintenant, mais c'est à peu près ce que c'était. c'était un peu plus grand la deuxième année et ensuite ça a un peu baissé. Si vous lisez l'article que je vous ai envoyé, vous verrez que j'étais théoriquement intéressé par l'Université d'Ottawa parce qu'elle était bilingue. Carelton avait un programme d'ingénierie qui était en fait meilleur à l'époque. Je ne pense pas que ce soit le cas aujourd'hui, je pense que celui d'Ottawa est meilleur, mais j'étais intéressé par toute université qui présentait un peu plus de diversité. À l'âge de 18 ans, je ne savais pas que je me destinais à l'ingénierie lorsque j'ai posé ma candidature à l'Université d'Ottawa. Je pensais que j'allais étudier les mathématiques. Ma bourse provenait de la compagnie d'assurance, je pensais que j'allais étudier les sciences proprement dites, etc. Je ne m'attendais donc pas vraiment à ce que ce soit des Anglais ou des hommes. Je ne savais pas que ce serait comme ça. C'était donc très différent quand je suis arrivée, mais j'ai été attirée par le sentiment que c'était à peu près l'endroit égal que je voulais. Victoria : Vous avez dit que vous aviez un ami qui était peut-être francophone. Savez-vous s'il y avait des anglophones et des francophones qui sortaient ensemble ? Ou est-ce que vous diriez que c'était aussi une sorte de séparation ? Kathleen : Je ne suis peut-être pas la bonne personne pour poser cette question, parce que j'étais une femme. J'avais tendance à fréquenter les hommes plus âgés. Il y en avait plusieurs dans ma classe qui avaient commencé par un diplôme de technologie et qui s'étaient ensuite rendu compte qu'ils ne gagnaient pas assez d'argent. Certains d'entre eux étaient mariés et avaient des petites amies. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : Je regardais cette photo et je sais qu'elle a été prise 20 ans plus tard, mais dans ce groupe, presque tous avaient des petites amies avant de venir à l'université. L'un d'entre eux avait une petite amie francophone, l'un des gars venait de Timmons, tout au nord. Mais encore une fois, c'était un environnement très masculin. C'est comme cet événement social mentionné, il y avait un vendredi soir, TGIF dans le hall de l'université. Les infirmières et moi-même avions le droit d'y venir parce qu'elles étaient dans le bâtiment, mais il n'y avait pas d'autres femmes ou jeunes femmes de l'université qui venaient à cet événement, c'était une sorte de ségrégation. Victoria : Vous avez dit que vous étiez l'une des deux femmes de votre programme, n'est-ce pas ? Kathleen : Je crois que c'est trois. Je me souviens, j'étais la seule en génie civil dans ma promotion, mais je sais qu'il y avait une femme ingénieur en mécanique et une femme ingénieur en chimie. L'autre était donc électricienne. Il n'y en avait que quatre, il y en a peut-être plus maintenant, il y a probablement des choses environnementales aussi, mais il n'y en avait que quatre. Nous ne partagions que quelques cours en deuxième année, mais vous savez, plus on se spécialise dans une discipline. Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Donc moi, et en fait la femme ingénieur en mécanique, j'étais francophone. Maintenant que je me souviens que vous l'avez mentionné, nous étions en quelque sorte connectées parce que nous étions les seules femmes, l'ingénieur chimiste était anglophone. En fait, nous ne nous fréquentions pas du tout. Nous ne le faisions pas, nous avions nos propres activités. Je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment de connexion parce que nous étions les seules femmes. C'était aussi à une époque intéressante, et je pense que c'est intéressant d'un point de vue culturel. Je l'ai remarqué parce que j'ai beaucoup encadré de femmes ingénieurs, vous savez, dans mon monde, nous étions plus intéressées par le fait de prétendre que nous n'étions pas des femmes. Je ne veux pas dire en essayant de ressembler à un homme, mais que nous ne sommes pas des femmes ingénieurs, nous sommes des ingénieurs, n'est-ce pas ? Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Et donc nous n'avons pas, nous n'avons délibérément pas traîné avec d'autres femmes. On essayait de dire qu'on était comme tout le monde, qu'on nous traitait comme tout le monde dans ce domaine. Et cela a vraiment, à mon avis, beaucoup changé au cours de ces 50 dernières années. Depuis que je suis allée à l'école, les femmes ingénieurs que j'ai, les jeunes femmes ingénieurs que j'ai encadrées dans mon bureau, veulent être ensemble. Elles veulent marcher ensemble. Elles veulent partager leurs questions et leurs problèmes. Elles veulent être identifiées comme des femmes ingénieurs qui ont des besoins particuliers. Des besoins spécifiques tels que, vous savez, nous avons des familles. Nous devons prendre soin les unes des autres et ce genre de choses n'était absolument pas différent à mon époque. Ne nous traitez pas différemment. Traitez-nous comme des égaux. Nous recherchions l'égalité, pas l'inégalité. Il est donc intéressant de voir à quel point les choses ont changé à cet égard, car aujourd'hui il y a inégalité, mais une inégalité positive. En d'autres termes, il y a une sorte de traitement spécial dans certains cas, d'accord, ce qui n'était pas le cas, nous étions déterminés à ne pas avoir besoin de quelque chose de spécial parce que nous étions africains et que cela ne ferait que nous marginaliser, pour ainsi dire. Victoria : J'ai oublié de demander, mais en quelles années avez-vous fréquenté l'Université ? Kathleen : 1972 et ensuite mon diplôme, je pense que j'ai été diplômée au printemps 77. Je suis une étudiante de premier cycle. J'aurais été diplômée en 1976 mais j'étais enceinte, j'ai dû attendre et prendre un ou deux cours de plus et finir. J'ai fait mon master à temps partiel parce que j'avais un enfant et que je travaillais, alors j'étais une mère célibataire et je faisais mon master et tout ça. Victoria : Comment ? Kathleen : Je pense que cela m'a pris entre deux et trois ans. Vous pouvez le voir dans mon relevé de notes ou je peux le regarder après et voir, donc je pense que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme vers 1980 lorsque j'ai terminé ma maîtrise ou peut-être même un peu plus tard. Victoria : D'accord, parfait. Je vous remercie. Je voulais vous poser cette question au début, mais elle m'est totalement sortie de l'esprit. Nous avons parlé des fêtes, de ce que c'était. Mais nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête ", alors qu'en Ontario, il existe une école de la fête différente, où la culture est plus axée sur les fêtes de rue et les fêtes à domicile. Est-ce que ça existait vraiment à Ottawa ou comme c'était une plus grande ville, il y avait plutôt des bars ? Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Vous n'aviez donc pas vraiment de culture de la fête sur le campus ? Kathleen : Oui, eh bien, je ne vivais pas sur le campus. Je pense que les gens qui ont vécu sur le campus en savent plus à ce sujet. Je sais qu'il y avait des fraternités, je ne sais pas s'il y avait des sororités. Je ne sais rien de ce genre de choses. Et je pense qu'il y avait comme partout, même dans une grande ville, des maisons autour de l'université et des étudiants qui s'y plaisent. Ils louent des locaux et d'autres choses, et si ces fêtes débordaient dans la rue, je n'en ai aucune idée parce que je n'en faisais pas partie, je vivais dans le West End. Victoria : La guerre du Viêt Nam se déroulait à peu près au même moment où vous alliez à l'université. Te souviens-tu de l'opinion générale des étudiants à ce sujet, ou si les gens continuaient simplement leurs études ? Kathleen : Je ne me souviens d'aucune conversation sur la guerre du Viêt Nam lorsque j'étais à l'école. Je pense que la seule chose que j'ai remarquée lorsque j'ai obtenu mon premier emploi, lorsque je suis allée travailler et qu'il y avait deux Draft Dodgers qui travaillaient là, c'était des architectes et des ingénieurs américains. L'un était architecte et l'autre ingénieur, et ils étaient évidemment très opposés à la guerre du Vietnam. Donc, si je devais faire une supposition, nous aurions été contre la guerre du Vietnam par sympathie pour les étudiants. Mais encore une fois, je pense qu'il y avait très peu de conversations sur la politique. Je veux dire que les ingénieurs sont des gens vraiment ennuyeux. Victoria:Vous souvenez-vous de manifestations à l'école ou non ? Kathleen : Rien. Victoria : Très bien, ok. C'est une question amusante, je pense. Dans les années 1960, les artistes du rock'n'roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme un mouvement de rébellion ou comme une simple forme de musique populaire ? Kathleen : Mes parents étaient très âgés. Ma mère avait 45 ans quand je suis née, alors ils avaient vraiment [haussement d'épaules]. Je ne vivais pas à la maison quand j'étais à l'université. Je vivais avec mon petit ami. Et ils ne m'ont jamais imposé leur point de vue, de quelque manière que ce soit, alors je ne sais même pas ce qu'ils pensaient. Et de toute évidence, ils sont tous les deux morts sur cette question. Mon lien avec la culture rock'n'roll, pour ainsi dire. C'était vraiment au lycée, au lycée les musiciens qui jouaient dans l'orchestre avaient aussi un groupe de garage, n'est-ce pas ? J'allais donc les écouter dans le groupe de garage. Il y avait aussi beaucoup de drogues dans mon lycée, qui était en quelque sorte un lycée de Nepean et une autre école à proximité, et il y avait donc une culture de la drogue qui existait aussi chez les musiciens. De manière plus générale, la culture des années 60, je pense qu'elle était plus présente à la fin de mes années de lycée qu'à l'université, parce qu'il s'agissait de garçons conservateurs, ingénieurs, qui travaillaient dur. Je suis sûre qu'il y avait un peu de ce genre de choses à l'université, mais je n'y ai pas vraiment été exposée dans le cadre de mon expérience universitaire. Mon petit ami, qui était un vilain étudiant, traînait avec certains toxicomanes. Il traînait un peu avec la culture de la drogue. J'y ai donc été un peu exposée, mais encore une fois, c'était probablement plus à la fin du lycée qu'à l'université. Victoria : D'accord, d'accord. Nous en sommes donc au deuxième thème, qui concerne l'expérience féminine et le fait d'être dans un programme dominé par les hommes. Vous avez probablement des choses à dire. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? Kathleen : J'étais peut-être un peu en avance, mais ce qui m'est arrivé lorsque j'étais au lycée, c'est que je me demandais ce que j'allais faire à l'université. Personne n'a jamais mentionné l'ingénierie comme une carrière possible. Je n'en avais aucune idée. Je n'ai jamais pensé que j'en avais entendu parler, mais en fait, je n'en avais jamais entendu parler. Je ne connaissais aucun ingénieur et la plupart des femmes trouvent leur voie vers l'ingénierie par l'intermédiaire d'un père ou d'un parent. J'ai donc choisi les mathématiques parce que je suis opposée aux arts, que j'apprécie également. J'ai choisi les mathématiques et les sciences parce que je voulais trouver un emploi. C'est ce que j'ai fait et quand je suis passé en première année, qui était un programme combiné de sciences et d'ingénierie, j'ai dû prendre un cours facultatif et je ne voulais pas prendre de biologie ou quelque chose comme ça. J'ai donc pris ce cours d'introduction à l'ingénierie parce que je pensais que c'était un peu plus orienté vers les mathématiques et c'était parfait pour moi parce que je m'intéressais surtout au type de mathématiques qui soutiennent l'ingénierie, comme le calcul. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : En fait, c'était ma spécialité. Je suis donc passée de l'idée que j'allais devenir mathématicienne ou quelque chose du genre, peu importe ce que cela signifie, à celle que je pourrais peut-être devenir ingénieure. C'est donc le programme de cours qui m'a fait découvrir ce métier, et non une personne ou quelqu'un d'autre, et certainement pas en regardant autour de moi les autres ingénieurs, car ils étaient tous de sexe masculin. Pour une raison quelconque, le fait qu'ils soient des hommes, que tout le monde soit des hommes, ne m'a pas dérangé. Je me suis donc lancé à l'aveuglette. Je ne me souviens pas d'y être allée en pensant consciemment que je faisais tomber les barrières à l'entrée des femmes et que je ne faisais rien de tel. Je me disais simplement, ok, je pense que c'est la bonne carrière pour moi parce que c'est basé sur mon sens des capacités, mes capacités académiques. Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été traitée différemment, mal, spécialement, ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. Je ne me souviens pas, et en fait pas même par les autres étudiants. Encore une fois, j'avais tendance à fréquenter ceux qui connaissaient bien les femmes, ceux qui étaient mariés. Même si je n'étais pas plus âgé, j'avais l'âge normal d'une personne normale qui est passée par le lycée et l'université. Plusieurs d'entre eux travaillaient depuis quelques années et je me suis donc sentie à l'aise. J'ai évidemment remarqué que j'étais la seule femme. Ce qui m'a étonnée, c'est qu'il ne m'était jamais venu à l'esprit qu'il pouvait s'agir d'une carrière. C'est donc une chose que j'ai faite dans ma vie : je suis allée faire des présentations dans des lycées, des groupes de scouts, etc. Ainsi, lorsqu'elles voient une femme faire une présentation dans le domaine de l'ingénierie, elles peuvent s'identifier et se dire qu'elles pourraient faire cela. Vous savez, s'ils sont une femme, n'est-ce pas ? J'essaie de me rappeler que l'expérience universitaire des femmes remonte à très longtemps. Victoria : D'accord. Kathleen : J'essaie de me demander s'il y a des choses dont je me suis sentie exclue, mais ce n'est pas le cas. Vous savez, une expérience, c'est pertinent je pense. En génie civil, il y a une période de trois semaines. Je ne pense pas que ce soit encore trois semaines. Nous devions prendre trois semaines pendant l'été, entre la deuxième et la troisième année, pour aller dans un camp de géomètres. Ce qu'on appelait l'université à l'époque, et je crois qu'elle possède toujours une propriété dans les collines de la Gatineau, assez loin. C'était une retraite pour les pères qui dirigeaient l'université, les pères catholiques ou quelque chose comme ça. Il s'agissait donc d'un ensemble de cabanes au bord d'un lac, et vous pourriez probablement vous renseigner à ce sujet. Je ne me souviens pas du nom du lac, cela me reviendra dans quelques jours. Mais nous devions aller là-bas et c'était difficile parce que nous devions gagner de l'argent pendant l'été pour payer l'université. Certains d'entre nous, en particulier, ont dû prendre trois semaines de congé, sans travail, pour aller au camp de service. Nous avons donc appris, pendant deux semaines je crois, les techniques d'arpentage, car beaucoup d'ingénieurs civils disent qu'il s'agit d'une application du génie civil, etc. Même si l'on ne fait pas de levés en tant qu'ingénieur, il faut les comprendre et utiliser les données qu'ils fournissent, etc. Et puis une semaine était consacrée à d'autres choses, comme l'analyse des déchets et des travaux pratiques. Je vais donc à ce camp de géomètres avec 25 gars. Ils savaient tous que j'avais un petit ami. Ce genre de choses, mais je veux dire, vous savez, la culture c'était un peu intéressant. C'est tout. Victoria : La seule femme, c'était toi ? Kathleen : Pardon ? Victoria : La seule femme ? Kathleen : Oui, oui, oui. Victoria : Oui, d'accord. Kathleen : Il n'y avait que notre classe à ce moment-là et ils avaient mis les gars dans des cabines qui pouvaient accueillir 4 personnes ou quelque chose comme ça. Et j'avais ma propre cabine. On faisait la fête le soir et des choses comme ça. Mais je n'ai jamais eu de mauvaises expériences avec aucun des étudiants, ni avec les professeurs, ni avec quoi que ce soit d'autre. Avec le recul, je me dis que j'étais complètement naïve. Vous savez, j'avais 22 ans, mais vous savez, j'étais séparée, mais j'étais ensemble. Je veux dire qu'ils m'ont donné un endroit séparé pour dormir, mais j'étais incluse. Je devais faire tout ce qu'ils devaient faire, etc. et j'étais aussi forte que certains d'entre eux. Certains d'entre eux ne l'étaient pas, c'est pourquoi c'était intéressant. Victoria : Eh bien, quelle expérience, je ne peux pas l'imaginer. Et puis est-ce que tu as dû payer des frais de scolarité, ou est-ce que tu as dû payer pour aller à cette retraite, ou est-ce que c'était tout compris ? Kathleen : Non, je ne pense pas. Je pense que ça faisait partie des frais de scolarité, vous savez, pour l'année et c'était. Je pense que c'est vrai, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Je suis sûr que vous le savez parce que la plus grande pénalité financière était de ne pas pouvoir travailler pendant trois semaines en été. Donc, et je pense que ce que j'ai entendu plus tard, c'est qu'ils l'ont raccourci à cause du problème de la perte de revenus pour les étudiants. C'est peut-être encore le cas. Je ne sais pas vraiment, mais c'était... c'était une très bonne expérience et j'ai vraiment appris à connaître mes camarades de classe et tout ça. En dépit du fait qu'il s'agissait de garçons, n'est-ce pas ? Oui, pour ainsi dire. Victoria : Et vous me parliez hier au téléphone des étudiantes en soins infirmiers et du fait qu'elles vous rejoignaient dans les bâtiments d'ingénierie. Kathleen : Oui, oui. Victoria : Pouvez-vous me dire... pouvez-vous répéter ce que vous avez dit hier à ce sujet ? Kathleen : Bien sûr. Et vous savez que je vous ai dit qu'il y avait un bâtiment d'ingénierie qui était tout au bout du campus et bien sûr que le bâtiment d'ingénierie plus récent, je crois, est plus loin au bout du campus. Mais les sciences ? La faculté des sciences se trouvait dans les environs, un peu à côté, le bâtiment d'ingénierie était le plus éloigné, et je crois que c'était à l'époque où j'y étais. Ou peut-être était-ce avant mon arrivée. La faculté des sciences infirmières s'est installée dans le bâtiment et nous avons pensé - peut-être l'ai-je inventé ou peut-être quelqu'un me l'a-t-il raconté - que les ingénieurs avaient déplacé les étudiantes en sciences infirmières pour qu'il y ait des femmes et des hommes dans le bâtiment et qu'il y ait quelques ingénieurs, pour que l'environnement des ingénieurs ne soit pas totalement masculin, qui m'invitaient à un événement TGIF tous les vendredis et que nous voyions dans les couloirs, etc. Je me demande donc s'il s'agissait d'une décision délibérée de la part de l'université, ou d'une simple coïncidence. "Il y a de la place dans le bâtiment des ingénieurs pour y mettre les infirmières, mais c'est un peu étrange, quand on y pense... on pense qu'ils mettent juste plus de cours de chimie ou quelque chose comme ça, vous voyez ? Parce que le bâtiment des ingénieurs était plein de laboratoires, d'ingénieurs et d'autres choses du même genre. C'est donc une partie intéressante de l'histoire de l'université de savoir si c'était délibéré ou non. Victoria : Est-ce que le fait d'avoir plus de femmes dans le bâtiment vous a donné l'impression que c'était un environnement plus inclusif, ou est-ce que cela vous a donné l'impression de le regarder un peu bizarrement et de vous dire, ohhh, vous savez, c'est pour ça qu'ils les ont mises ici ? Kathleen : Oui, je dirais que c'est le dernier cas. Je n'ai rien à voir avec eux. Je veux dire que je n'ai pas partagé de cours avec eux. Je n'ai donc pas eu l'occasion de les connaître. Je m'identifie vraiment à ma classe, n'est-ce pas ? Nous étions donc un petit monde à part. Victoria : Oui, vous aviez votre propre petite communauté et c'était presque, oui. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : La section suivante porte sur l'idéologie et les différences générationnelles. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : J'ai l'impression que cela se produit avec chaque nouveau groupe. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Kathleen : Je pense qu'il y avait certainement, et de mon point de vue personnel, une certaine rébellion, c'est vrai. Je veux dire, évidemment, j'ai déménagé à 18 ans avec mon petit ami. C'est une chose terrible à faire, vous savez, pour les vieux parents et tout ce genre de choses. J'étais donc en marge de la culture de la drogue et de toutes ces choses, mais c'était une chose personnelle. Je ne me suis pas mobilisé pour changer le monde. Je rejetais simplement le système de valeurs de mes parents. Ce n'est pas du tout la même chose que de travailler pour un monde meilleur, et c'était absent de mon expérience universitaire. Et je suis sûr que ce n'est pas du tout le cas à la faculté des arts. Mais les ingénieurs avaient la tête baissée, en gros, donc je veux dire, et je suis devenue beaucoup plus consciente de ce genre de choses en vieillissant, évidemment. Mais oui, désolée. Victoria : Non, ne vous excusez pas. Est-ce que tes parents t'ont découragée d'entreprendre une carrière dans les STIM, ou les conseillers à l'école, ou quoi que ce soit du genre ? Kathleen : Oui. Eh bien, le fait est que les conseillers à l'école ne m'ont jamais mentionné la possibilité, vous savez, comme d'y penser. Je veux dire, c'est assez terrible, je veux dire qu'ils m'ont encouragé à ne pas aller vers un diplôme de technologie. J'étais tellement concentré sur l'obtention d'un emploi que je me suis dit que j'obtiendrais un diplôme de technologie. Ce n'est que trois ans et ils m'ont dit que tu ne devrais pas faire ça. Tu as les capacités académiques pour le faire, alors c'est ce qu'ils ont fait. On ne m'a pas découragé de ne pas obtenir de diplôme, mais on n'a jamais, littéralement jamais parlé d'ingénierie. Et ma mère m'a raconté une petite histoire à ce sujet, à un moment où j'ai pris la décision de m'orienter vers l'ingénierie, quand on m'a présenté l'ingénierie à la fin de la première année et que j'ai décidé que ce serait ma matière principale, le génie civil. Ma mère m'a dit : "Pourquoi veux-tu faire ça, Cath ? C'était comme si elle, vous savez, je veux dire, je me souviens de ces mots et pourtant ils, vous savez, ils étaient manifestement fiers de moi. Vous avez vu cette chose, la bourse, mais elle ne connaissait aucune femme ingénieur. Et elle, je ne pense pas qu'ils m'aient envoyée à l'université pour me marier. Ils ne l'ont pas fait, mais elle ne comprenait pas pourquoi je voulais étudier pour une carrière qui, selon elle, n'est pas une carrière pour les femmes. Je n'ai pas failli à la tâche. C'est juste qu'elle ne connaissait pas les femmes et que je ne connaissais pas les femmes ingénieurs. En y repensant, je me demande pourquoi je n'ai pas eu peur. Ou pourquoi ne me suis-je pas remise en question ou quoi que ce soit d'autre ? Mais je ne me posais pas beaucoup de questions à l'époque et c'est en fait, lorsque j'étais en première année et que je suivais tous ces cours de mathématiques, je me souviens que je suis même entrée dans... je crois que j'ai essayé un club de mathématiques ou quelque chose comme ça et c'était tellement intello et les professeurs étaient tellement ésotériques que je me suis dit : " Est-ce que je pourrais vraiment faire ça ? J'étais à un moment de ma vie, à l'université, où le monde était plus réel et j'ai eu le sentiment que le concept de mathématiques appliquées, qui est ce qu'est l'ingénierie et qui est aussi une science appliquée, pouvait être appliqué à la résolution de problèmes et à la recherche de solutions. Les appliquer pour résoudre des problèmes et des choses comme ça. Vous savez, c'est ce qui a vraiment résonné en moi, mais ce message ne m'a pas été transmis et je soupçonne qu'il a été davantage transmis aux hommes. J'ai lu à plusieurs reprises que si vous voyez une femme ingénieur, il ne vous vient pas à l'esprit que vous pouvez en être une. Si vous les voyez physiquement ou si vous les entendez parler ou si elles sont professeurs ou autre. Il n'y a pas de femmes professeurs dont je me souvienne, je ne pense pas. Il ne vous vient jamais à l'esprit que vous pourriez le faire, c'est pourquoi et je pense que c'est pourquoi cela s'est accéléré assez rapidement, vous savez, une fois qu'il y a une femme, il y en a une autre et une autre, et maintenant vous savez, de nombreux programmes. Je ne sais pas quelles sont les statistiques à Ottawa, mais par exemple, le génie de l'environnement a probablement plus de 50% de femmes, donc pour revenir à votre concept de vouloir faire une différence dans le monde. Je pense que certains d'entre vous savent, je sais que cela ne ressemble pas à une cause, il ne s'agit pas de protester et tout ça, mais de faire une différence dans l'environnement. Vous savez, les carrières qui attirent les femmes - les femmes en général - ont souvent un sens plus aigu de la responsabilité sociale. Peut-être que je fais une déclaration trop large, mais l'ingénierie est un moyen de changer les choses. Victoria : C'était formidable. Je vous remercie. D'accord. Dans les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne vous paraissait le plus détraqué et le plus à corriger ? Peut-être pas sur le campus, mais est-ce qu'il y a quelque chose dont vous vous souvenez quand vous étiez à l'école et que vous vous êtes dit : oh, c'est complètement faux. Kathleen : Oui, je me souviens que la première fois que j'ai rencontré une personne noire, c'était à l'université. Je n'en avais jamais rencontré, j'en avais probablement vu une dans la rue ou quelque chose comme ça, mais Ottawa à l'époque, contrairement à aujourd'hui, je crois que c'était un endroit très blanc. J'avais aussi des amis au lycée et j'étais consciente de l'intolérance à l'égard des Canadiens français. Je savais que certaines personnes avaient ces gens-là. J'avais une petite amie qui disait des choses à un ami du lycée, vous savez, qui me disait quelque chose. Mon père me disait "ne te comporte pas comme ça". Je veux dire que c'était vraiment un homme avec des idéaux. Donc, pour ce qui est de ce genre de choses, ce sont des choses basiques. Je crois donc qu'il y avait un certain sectarisme à l'égard des Canafiens français et je l'ai rencontré dans mon travail juste après avoir quitté l'université. Oui, et ce n'était pas une bonne chose dans la société canadienne. Je ne sais pas s'il existe encore. Ma fille vit maintenant à Ottawa. Je ne lui en ai jamais parlé, mais ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Et cela dépendait du niveau auquel vous travailliez, et les gens du bas de l'échelle, il y avait plus de choses de ce genre. Je veux dire qu'il y avait cet intellectuel, Pierre Trudeau, qui était là à l'époque. Tout le monde était amoureux de lui et ce genre de choses. C'était différent. Mais ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Je pense, mais pour ce que j'en sais, que ce n'était pas une bonne chose pour la société canadienne. Je suppose que pour moi, c'est devenu un problème important. Je ne parle pas seulement du côté canadien-français, mais je n'ai pas du tout grandi dans un environnement multiculturel. C'est comme un environnement britannique, en gros, c'est ça ? Et je pense que ce n'était pas une bonne chose. Maintenant, je sais que le Canada a évolué dans un sens puis dans l'autre. Je veux dire qu'il est très accueillant pour les immigrants, ce qui est une chose merveilleuse. Je pense que ce genre de problème a été résolu, mais j'essaie de penser à d'autres choses. Je me souviens avoir pensé que je vivais dans un meilleur pays que les États-Unis. C'est ce que je ressentais vraiment. J'étais fière, mais pas fière de brandir le drapeau. C'est ce que je ressentais, je veux dire que je le ressens probablement encore dans une certaine mesure. Cela a quelque peu changé, évidemment. Je vis ici maintenant (Massacusets), alors oui. Je sais que ce n'est pas une réponse très profonde, mais c'est la seule chose à laquelle je peux penser. Encore une fois, je ne connaissais pas le monde. Je n'avais jamais quitté le pays. Le seul pays auquel je nous comparais était la Grande-Bretagne ou les États-Unis. Victoria : Juste en complément, aviez-vous le sentiment que le système politique de l'époque était démocratique, juste et sensible aux besoins des citoyens ? Si vous vous en souvenez. Kathleen : Oui, je pense que oui. Mon père était une sorte de socialiste de salon. Vous savez, je ne connais pas ce terme, mais il parlait de politique, mais il n'était pas en colère à ce sujet. Je pense que ma connaissance de la politique s'est faite en écoutant mon père. Je n'étais pas impliquée et engagée. Je ne sentais pas que nous vivions dans un mauvais endroit et j'étais heureux de - vous savez, je pensais que les choses allaient bien. Je le pensais vraiment. Victoria : Non, c'est bien. C'est toujours le cas, je ne sais pas. Je me sens un peu comme ça maintenant. Je me sens bien au Canada, mais je suis en sciences politiques et plus j'apprends sur la politique et plus j'apprends sur le passé, évidemment ça change toujours, mais je me sens toujours un peu... je me sens bien. Kathleen Oui, c'est un pays très respecté, à peu près, nous pourrions, le Canada pourrait contribuer davantage, vous savez, à la défense et à des choses comme ça. C'est le seul domaine où ils ne font pas tout à fait leur part. Mais je le pense à bien des égards. J'entends ma fille. J'entends que mes filles sont très intéressées par la politique. Je pense qu'elle est, vous savez, juste la différence, je veux dire que pour moi, la différence entre les libéraux et les conservateurs au Canada est si petite, vous le savez. L'autre chose, c'est que c'est presque comme un pays à parti unique, mais tout va bien. Et vous savez, toutes les prestations sociales, je pense que le niveau de vie... J'ai quitté le pays à l'âge de trente ans. Je suis parti à l'âge de trente ans et serais-je dans la même situation si j'étais resté ? Je ne sais pas vraiment. Je pense que j'avais l'impression d'être dans un petit étang, c'est en partie pour cela que je suis partie. Pas entièrement, je veux dire que j'ai épousé un Américain. Vous savez quoi ? J'y pense, c'était un petit étang et l'opportunité, vous savez, un gros poisson dans un petit étang. Je n'étais pas un gros poisson quand je suis parti, mais je pense que j'avais certainement plus d'opportunités ici. Mais je veux dire que c'est juste la nature du pays, la taille du pays, le nombre de personnes, le nombre d'opportunités commerciales et ce genre de choses, n'est-ce pas ? Et je pense qu'en devenant tellement plus global, tellement plus accueillant, avec tant de gens venant de tant d'autres pays, vous avez en quelque sorte apporté des morceaux d'autres étangs, vous savez, donc, c'est génial. Victoria : Ok, désolée, laissez-moi voir. Ok, la partie suivante concerne le mouvement de l'amour libre. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague au début des années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'époque, comme à l'époque de l'Université d'Ottawa ? Kathleen : Oui, j'en suis sûre. Je sais que c'était juste à l'orée de cette période. Je ne sais pas comment, je ne sais pas comment c'était cinq ans avant, parce que je, je veux dire que le sexe était partout. Donc il y avait beaucoup de sexe, beaucoup de sexe, de drogues et de rock'n'roll, oui. Victoria : J'aime bien ça, "sexe, drogues et rock'n'roll". Comment votre génération voyait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Tu as mentionné que tu avais un enfant, mais certains de tes camarades de classe étaient plus âgés et ils étaient déjà mariés et installés. Kathleen : Oui. Victoria : Est-ce que c'était du genre, vous avez fini l'école et vous vous êtes mariés ou quoi ? Qu'est-ce que tu en penses ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu une supposition automatique que cela allait se produire. Je pense que cela a changé lorsque j'étais à l'université et, encore une fois, vous savez, les ingénieurs sont des gens conservateurs en général. Ils se situaient donc à cette extrémité du spectre. Je connaissais beaucoup de gens qui vivaient avec d'autres personnes, ce genre de choses, et le contrôle des naissances a évidemment contribué à tout cela. Je pense que vous savez que nous étions ouverts à différentes façons d'avoir des partenaires multiples dans une certaine mesure. Je veux dire que ma situation était évidemment différente. D'une certaine manière, elle l'était. D'une certaine manière, elle ne l'était pas. J'ai rencontré un homme quand j'étais au lycée et je suis allée vivre avec lui, mais je suis tombée enceinte et je me suis mariée. Alors je ne sais pas, peut-être qu'aujourd'hui je l'aurais fait. Je ne sais pas, mais je ne suis pas sûre que c'était le cas, mais c'est probablement la bonne chose à faire. Alors non, je pense que nous étions, c'est quelque chose que vous savez, nous n'étions pas nécessairement en retard au Canada. Victoria : D'accord, oui. Non, c'est tout à fait logique, merci. Ok, nous approchons de la fin. C'est la dernière petite section. Il s'agit juste d'une clause de non-responsabilité indiquant que cette dernière partie traite de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Elle est totalement facultative. C'est à vous de décider si vous voulez. Je peux lire les questions et vous pouvez décider d'y répondre ou non. La première question porte sur le fait que de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires ont-elles surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes ? Kathleen : Non, pour autant que je sache. Victoria : Aujourd'hui, sur le campus, voici un exemple. Nous avons ces petits boutons, comme les petits silos d'urgence, à peu près tous les pâtés de maisons, et si vous appuyez sur le bouton, une grande alarme se déclenche et vous savez, des gens vont venir à votre emplacement. C'est si vous êtes suivi ou si vous ne vous sentez pas en sécurité sur le campus ou si nous avons un programme de retour à la maison. Kathleen. Non. Victoria : Vous pouvez aller au centre universitaire et trouver un compagnon. Et nous avons aussi, je crois que c'est volontaire, mais il y a aussi des étudiants qui sont des sortes d'auxiliaires médicaux, je dirais ça au sens large, sur le campus qui surveillent les zones pendant les grandes soirées de rentrée ou les fêtes pendant le week-end. Y avait-il quelque chose de ce genre lorsque vous étiez là-bas ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas. Non, je n'étais pas au courant. Encore une fois, si j'avais vécu près de l'université ou sur le campus. Je ne participais pas du tout à la vie nocturne sur le campus. Victoria : C'est vrai. Kathleen : Je ne pense pas que je sois allée quelque part la nuit, ou le soir. Mais certainement pas dans les événements sociaux qui, je suppose que non, pas que je connaissais Victoria : Ohh. Kathleen : C'est peut-être seulement que je n'en étais pas consciente. Victoria : La question suivante, on en a déjà parlé, mais c'est à propos des relations sexuelles avant le mariage, mais je me demandais comment c'était perçu sur le campus. Est-ce que c'était perçu négativement, accepté ou même encouragé ? Kathleen : Je ne pense pas qu'il y avait une façon de l'encourager, mais c'était certainement accepté/ vous savez, c'était tout à fait courant, tout à fait courant. Victoria : Parfait, et voici la dernière question. Il s'agit de savoir si les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient des relations sexuelles avant le mariage. Kathleen : Euh, eh bien. Il n'y a pas de réponse unique à cette question, n'est-ce pas ? Je ne sais pas si le mot m'inquiète. Je pense qu'ils étaient, en tout cas je pense que mes parents étaient conscients, évidemment avant même que je parte vivre avec mon petit ami, qu'il y avait des relations sexuelles avant le mariage. Mais je ne me souviens pas, je veux dire les pilules et les choses que j'ai emportées, je ne me souviens pas que ma mère, vous savez, elle ne savait rien de tout cela. Nous n'en avons jamais parlé. Quoi qu'il en soit. Peut-être que le mot inquiétude fait référence à ce qui pourrait arriver en termes de bébés et de choses comme ça, je suis sûre qu'ils s'inquiétaient. Tout le monde s'inquiète de la naissance d'un bébé, vous savez, d'un bébé non désiré. Mais encore une fois, les générations de mes parents étaient probablement deux générations. Ma mère n'avait pas 20 ans lorsqu'elle m'a mis au monde. Elle avait 45 ans. Elle était donc un peu comme si elle ne comprenait pas cette nouvelle génération, et elle m'a vraiment laissée toute seule à cause de cela. Je ne veux pas dire que c'est négatif. Victoria : Non, je ressens la même chose, comme ma mère, sans vouloir la jeter dans le bus, mais elle a 62 ans maintenant, et c'est un peu la même chose. Je ne sais pas comment l'expliquer, mais le fait d'avoir des parents plus âgés me fait penser que certains de mes amis ont des parents dans la quarantaine et je me dis : " Oh là là ! Kathleen : Oui, ils sont beaucoup plus envahissants. Victoria : Oui. Kathleen : Oui, oui, j'ai trouvé ça aussi. Les autres parents essaient d'être tes amis, ils veulent que tu leur parles tout le temps. Et ma mère est comme, je ne comprends pas ce genre de choses. Victoria : Oui, ma mère est une baby boomer et elle ne veut pas m'appeler, comme si je devais l'appeler. Ce qui n'est pas un problème, mais c'est vraiment différent d'avoir des parents d'une génération plus âgée. Kathleen : Et je pense que c'est une chose positive Victoria. Je pense que tu regarderas en arrière et tu te rendras compte que l'indépendance que tu as maintenant vient en partie de ta mère. C'est elle qui t'a dit, d'une certaine façon, c'est une façon d'être indépendante. Victoria : Voilà qui conclut les questions d'entretien qui m'ont été posées. J'avais une question à poser, si vous le voulez bien. Kathleen : Bien. Victoria : Je m'interrogeais sur la technologie sur le campus. Qu'est-ce qu'on exigeait de vous en tant qu'étudiant, qu'est-ce que vous étiez censé avoir et quelle technologie utilisait-on dans la salle de classe ? Kathleen : Oui. Il y avait donc une transition en cours. Je veux dire, il y a toujours eu des questions et de la technologie, n'est-ce pas ? Nous avons perforé des cartes d'ordinateur. Vous ne savez peut-être même pas ce que c'est. En d'autres termes, nous avions des ordinateurs centraux et nous apprenions à perforer des cartes pour les introduire dans le programme. C'était vraiment très ancien. Mais nous avions aussi des règles à calcul. Les ingénieurs ont des règles à calcul et on leur a appris cela en 3e ou 4e année, je crois. Nous avons commencé à avoir des calculatrices qui additionnaient, soustrayaient, multipliaient et divisaient. C'est tout. C'était l'étendue de la technologie. Il n'y avait pas de téléphones, pas de smartphones, rien de tout cela. C'est donc assez intéressant. Nous devions fournir notre propre règle à calcul, qui n'était pas très chère, ainsi que les calculatrices. Je ne pense pas qu'elles étaient très chères aujourd'hui, elles ne coûtent rien, n'est-ce pas ? Un dollar ou quelque chose comme ça, mais elles n'étaient pas aussi chères ni aussi performantes. Je ne me souviens pas vraiment que l'argent ait été un obstacle. Je veux dire que j'ai évidemment obtenu cette bourse. Mais je pense que mes parents auraient, même s'ils avaient des revenus assez faibles, mon père travaillait dans la salle du courrier de la compagnie d'assurance. Et ma mère était secrétaire pour le gouvernement. Nous n'étions donc pas une famille à hauts revenus, mais je pense qu'ils auraient été en mesure de payer mes frais de scolarité, etc. Vous savez, c'est un autre aspect positif du Canada et de la culture canadienne pour moi. J'ai remarqué une grande différence entre les États-Unis et la qualité de l'accès à l'enseignement supérieur, qui est beaucoup plus universel au Canada qu'aux États-Unis. Je n'ai pas envoyé ma fille à l'étranger, mais je l'ai fortement encouragée à retourner au Canada pour y faire des études universitaires, car je sais qu'elle y obtiendrait un bon prix et que la population scolaire serait plus universelle. Il n'y a donc pas que les enfants riches, mais elle ne suit pas mes traces. Elle envoie ses enfants dans des écoles privées, c'est son choix. Victoria : Ok, c'est génial. Je pense que c'est tout. Merci beaucoup. Kathleen : D'accord, bien. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Almand, Kathleen (interview) Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bates, Victoria Description An account of the resource Testimonial about the University Of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the 1970s, including the bilingual culture, counterculture, and women's experience on campus. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-16 Language A language of the resource English Person An individual. Schools Attended University of Ottawa 1968-1974 Western University 1974-1976 University of Toronto 1993-1995 Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Birth Date 1949 Birthplace Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Degree BA PhD Professional degree MA Career professional Occupation Medicine - Specialty: Family Medicine Ethnicity English Irish Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maxted, John Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gumboc, Reyana https://omeka.uottawa.ca/lifeoncampus/files/original/a7414c4454c79efbf6f16461f737f60c.docx a72d68baaffc9f691377a02536a223fc https://omeka.uottawa.ca/lifeoncampus/files/original/cb192c830e17af5674af91c8089c9603.docx 0a7f6f62fab81f34dad1a0ba37cec5f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date Nov 10 1951 Birthplace Halifax Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa (1974-1976) (MA) UVC Alliant International Degree MA BA Career business Ethnicity English Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life agnostic Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Occupation University Professor Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bhamjee, Matthew Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charles, Roger Location The location of the interview Via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound THE FIRST ~5 MINUTES OF THE INTERVIEW WERE NOT RECORDED DUE TO TECHNICAL ISSUES. THE OPENING OF THE RECORDED TRANSCRIPT IS MR. ROGER CHARLES’ RESPONSE TO THE THIRD FOLLOW-UP QUESTION OF THE FIRST MAIN QUESTION: (Ottawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s; did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs?) Roger Charles: Many of the francophones that went to Ottawa U were actually franco-ontariens. If Quebec had separated [from Canada] they would have been a much smaller minority. Roger Charles: I think the French community versus the English community, they were two dynamics. One, I would say was the appeal or attractiveness of an independent Quebec. And I would probably say that for the bulk of the French speaking group (who were not conservative) would have supported the parti Quebecois and independence at the time. Roger Charles: Which of course never led to any physical conflict that I ever saw between English and French in Ottawa U, but it did make for a very difficult dynamic and experience compared to Carleton, which was very English. Matthew Bhamjee: Anglo-saxon almost? Roger Charles: Yeah, very white. because the international, the international students at that time were a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny minority. So it [Carleton] really was at that time an English university. Roger Charles: So it really was at that time an English university. Roger Charles: A lot of the professors were from the US. Roger Charles: And that was because, in the 60s, the universities exploded. You know, up until the 60s there was one university for BC and a University of Toronto and a University of Manitoba. Kind of like state, state universities in the states. And you know, all of the smaller universities like Brock and Concordia and uh and Carleton all exploded and there weren't enough professors in Canada to fill the spots. So there was a great deal of recruitment. Roger Charles: So, in my particular faculty, Yeah, I would say, yeah, certainly feel half the staff may have been American. Roger Charles: They all spoke French. That was a prerequisite, of course, in our course, you couldn't teach unless you spoke French and the French is very good if the accents were at a bit odd, but the French was very good. So in in our sector there, there were a lot of Americans, but bilingual American. Roger Charles: So, as far as a place to be in the 70s at all you, it was kind of interesting and in the sense that uh, Canada was going through much, much, much more, more severe stresses politically. Uh, resonated in the French and English Canada at that time. And that was reflected to considerable extent, In the challenges, I think both at the administrative level and in the student body level. Roger Charles: So you have you had essentially 3 universities all in all. So there was Carlton, which was the English university, the University of Quebec, all which is the French University and Ottawa U, which was the bilingual university, but with more biased towards French. Matthew Bhamjee: Ok, so what that everything you have to say on that? On to the next question. We use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom, can you describe the party culture on campus during the 70s? Roger Charles: well again I was a graduate student. I did not live on campus. I had a bunch of roommates and we shared a house, you know, uh, downtown Ottawa at the time. So my party culture was limited. When I left campus, other than the occasional, I have a couple of friends who I remain friends with today from my University of Ottawa days. Roger Charles: but my social activities on campus were we're fairly minimal, but the big, big, big, big differences between today and yet and then was smoking was still common. It was still seen as sophisticated. Getting drunk was seen as something manly, uh, and to have sex with a girl you had to get the girl drunk, from a man’s perspective obviously. Roger Charles: but so the notion that drinking was bad for you, that smoking was bad for you, that and all that sort of stuff and getting drunk and then getting in a car and driving uh, all those things that are seen as either illegal uh or socially unacceptable today were not then. Roger Charles: So in one sense I suppose, when you talk about party culture, it wasn’t just uO, it was [all] universities in general that do it. Roger Charles: going out and drinking and smoking and having sex and all those things that that are, you know, Hollywood staple of universities, none of it was seen as bad, from a moral or health perspective at the time. So people didn’t think very much about the particular impacts Roger Charles: getting into a car and getting now all of the things, you know, the drinking and driving the anti smoking campaigns, the women's liberation movement, all of these things had started and all of these things were starting to have an impact on behaviors on campus but they hadn't got to the stage where they become either (as in the case of drinking and driving)g the laws were getting tighter and tighter but they weren't such that it was seen as a real criminal offense to get into car and be drunk. Roger Charles: Most people still smoked. The irony today is that, cigarette smoking is the worst offence, worse than dope. It was of course the reverse case back then. Roger Charles: So no, I think the constraint I mean I don't know what the university party culture, I teach at the University Vancouver now, but I don't socialize with my students where whereas in, in those days a university professors having sex with their students was not wasn't forbidden either. Matthew Bhamjee: Really? Would you say that it was, I don’t want to say common but, more prevalent then compared to how it is now? Roger Charles: Yes, because now, you sleep with one of your students you get fired. Whereas before it was more of a wink, wink say no more thing. So we certainly, I certainly knew professors, who always check the first year students and I'm talking about male professors and females. I’m talking first year, second year students. So it was not uncommon. Roger Charles: all of these things that that are now seen as bad, you know on campuses and smoking cigarettes, getting drunk, chasing women were seen as normal back then. So you could argue that that. If you define party culture as all of those things, then yes, there was a party culture, but it wasn't. thye were just the social norms of the day in terms of your behavior. Matthew: Wow. Ok. Alright so, we'll move on to the second section now I think you spoke about this very briefly, but this is about sort of the female experience and you know, gender norms. In your words, what would you say feminism signified in Canada in the 70s? Roger Charles: Certainly if you watch movies in the 60s, of Hollywood. But just, just generally the sexism, you know, watch the James Bond movies of the 60s and you watch the ones that have been made in the 2010s. The social norms are dramatically different. It’s normal if you look at a movie in the 60s, women are either mothers or sex objects. Roger Charles: As women went to university and became educated, and as society transitioned from rural society to an urban society, they started demanding, quite rightly in hindsight, greater respect and so there were quite a number of times where the feminist movement was perceived as a women who don't wear bras, and don’t shave their legs and don't shave their armpits and wear army boots. Roger Charles: And so that transition was certainly, very much an awareness of this shift in in attitudes towards women at the university and that, you know, included people, men like me. you know, you were still attracted to women and you still lusted after women, but women were because certainly becoming far more aware and conscious of their own rights as individuals rather than the old joke was, you know, a woman went to university to get a bachelor the bachelor. and that attitude of finding a husband who would provide was definitely shifting. Roger Charles: So the women I knew at the graduate level, you know we're pretty independent minded women. Who had saw their lives in terms of a career and not in terms of a husband or family. Roger Charles: I would say that the 70s Were the period when the feminist movement really started to embed its consciousness into the university. Roger Charles: Having said that, I think socially, most, most women and men still expected to get married are still expected to have children. But it was no longer automatic default to do so, and that nuanced shift was an outcome and a reflection of the feminist movement, which really got rolling in the late 60s and became even more pronounced in the following years. Matthew Bhamjee: so a lot of changes? Roger Charles: Yes but, you see that in hindsight, you know in 50 years time someone probably gonna contact you and say what the hell does auto you like then and when you're there you know you live within the experience that you experience and the social norms that you accept as the norms today and you know what I was there you didn't even have computers you know the only computers remain friends and you had. So things in that sense have changed dramatically have compared to today, but you're not when you know you're not, you don't wake up with a sort of Eureka moment. Life and social norms all change, don’t you just live with them? Roger Charles: And it's only in hindsight and where we are today and you look back at where you were 50 years ago and realized that there was a transition going on, but you weren't, you weren't completely complex. Roger Charles: Most men were very dismissive of the feminist movement and they kind of dismiss ed them as all ugly lesbian. But in actual fact, the work that most feminists did to change the mindset of men and society generally was being absorbed and the way that more than more women than men go to universities these days is the outcome of that, that transition. Matthew: Ok, so for the next question, would you say there were any programs at the university or departments or clubs where women were less present or accepted or represented? Roger Charles: Every Sports Club, I would think, certainly football, hockey, you know, and they were still male dominated sports. Women, were We're in sports, I think at that point time, we're still very umm kind of amateurish for the most part. Roger Charles: So, I think the Ottawa U GGs at the time were actually a powerhouse football team. And so they were quite successful, much better than Carleton at the time. And the ice hockey team. So, I think in sports teams most of the time, were still seen as you know, it was very much a male. I mean, I think that there were intercollegiate female sports, but I don’t think that played it anywhere near the role that the major sports teams did. Roger Charles: And again, at that time, , and even today, to a certain extent, I think you know they're trying to change the mindset that the women went into the softer sciences, so women were still expected to go into nursing. I had friends who were female and who were going into medicine. And so the number of women that were going into the medical professions, right across the board was growing very rapidly. Roger Charles: There was very little crossover, I think in both in terms of clubs and so I don't think there was a huge merger of those value systems at that time. Matthew Bhamjee: Ok. Just to assure you, we’re still much better then Carleton at football. Roger Charles: Ok, well I’m glad to hear that. Matthew Bhamjee: I think were at 5 panda games in a row or something. Roger Charles: You know, I know the guy that owns the Ottawa Red blacks, John Ruddy. He and I went to school together and he played [football] at Carleton. So I got to know the football teams a little bit because I knew him and he's gone on to be very successful developer. That's why I think he brought the football team at Carlton back because of his links back in the 70s to playing football there so. Roger Charles: one other thing that I should add. I was very good friends with Maureen McTeer who was Joe Clark’s wife, who became prime minister in 1980. And I remember this quite vividly, she was a very good example of how women were changing in the 70s. , she and I went to high school together at Saint Pat's, and then I did undergrad at UBC. But she and I linked back up at the University of Ottawa and by this time she was quite a determined and independent woman and She went to law school at Ottawa U. Roger Charles: And so she was a very good illustration of the new woman, the woman of my generation of boomer generation, during she was very determined. She had great have political ambitions. And she knew that she wanted to be a lawyer and she wasn't going to be a mother just because she was a woman. Roger Charles: And the last time I really remember sitting on campus with her chatting. And by this time, this was the late 70s, she had married Joe Clark. And she told me how they're that she he was going to become leader of the opposition to Justin Trudeau's father, at this point in time was still Prime Minister and he was running, they got it and she became the wife of the Prime Minister, Joe Clark. And a lot of people hated her precisely because she inserted her independence. she wasn't the back sitting in the back being quiet and humble, she went out and asserted her rights. Both books and all the rest of this stuff. So she was a very good illustration of how women we're taking charge of their lives and becoming professionals. Roger Charles: Instead of just marrying men and having children, but quite determined to have independent lives of their own. And so she and the women I knew who became medical doctors were the first wave, the big wave of women asserting an independent professional life was becoming much, much more widespread. Matthew Bhamjee: alright we’ll move onto the third section. historians have written a lot about what they call counterculture revolution, and that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents generation. To what extent in your social circle, did people see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world, which you say? Roger Charles: I’m not sure, you know. I think every generation thinks itself is as a revolutionary and defiant. But you know the big thing about our generation, the boomers, is that we're at university was we were the first generation to really be lucky. And in the sense that, you know, my parents went to war, they grew up during the depression and then after the war, Was considered the glorious years from the 50s to the 70s. Roger Charles: Western economies, including Canadian economy, which at the time of the you know the in the late 60s and 70s, was still in the second richest country in the world. Now we're down about 15th or 20th. And so, we were blessed with a health system and all these sorts of things that made our lives actually pretty cool. Roger Charles: Now they, you know, the Vietnam War was going on in the United States, and there were Americans certainly going off to the to the war. But Canadians were not faced with that sort of trauma. And we didn’t have conscription. Roger Charles: If you were to ask me what was the biggest change in in or that made much of the sort of value system that were change happening, it's the pill. You know when women could have sex and not have to worry about getting pregnant. And then firstly, there was a sexual liberation and all the rest of it that made a huge, huge mental change, both for women and men. And so the default that you know if you had sex with a woman, you had to marry her because you might get pregnant no longer existed. Roger Charles: And then of course the drugs became fairly popular. So, but this is all premised on unemployment at 2 or 3% and the economy growing at two or three or 4% etcetera. But by the 70s, things were starting to change. You know, we had stagflation, You're the there wasn't any automatic right that you would get a job when you graduated from university. And so, when you were talking in your preamble about the 70s being a dull age to most people, , I think that's because of the excesses of the 60s and the revolutionary or the OR the reaction to the conservativism or and traditionalism of our parents had to consider with them expired because the economic models that had resulted in the growth of Western Economic Society for the previous 25 years were failing. And therefore, by definition, people became more reserved and more conservative. Roger Charles: And of course, in ultimately resulted in in a great disaster, in a sense, that starting in the 80s we have the conservative pushback. And what we see when the chaos done in the United States today and Pierre Poilievre of and the people’s party today is a reflection of all the things, umm, that we started as a reaction to the economic situation that was taking place in the 70s. Roger Charles: so I am not so sure that you could call our generation really that revolutionary, the Boomers governments are a embarrassment to you from your generation. I look at Trump and many of the people that are empowered, they, Xi Jinping in China and Modi in in India and Erdogan. They're all part of my generation and I think are awful people. Roger Charles: So yeah, I’m sure it’s a cultural reaction, not a revolution. Matthew Bhamjee: I mean I on that point, I think it's just people can sometimes get a little more conservative as they grow older. I’m sure it’ll happen to me, and on top of that, maybe these people in power were from more privileged standing when they were younger and so they didn’t get the same perspective. I mean, Donald Trump wouldn't have been necessarily affected by the effects of the Vietnam War because his dad made sure he got out of the draft or whatever. Roger Charles: Bill Clinton, for that matter, dodged the draft. So you went all American presidents and George W Bush, they all dodged the draft because they could. Anyway, that’s another story. Matthew Bhamjee: Ok. I think we have time for one more question. All give you the would you like to do the question about sexuality and harassment, or would you prefer to keep on the track of Sort of like protests and counterculture? Roger Charles: I think sexuality and harassment, I don’t know Matthew Bhamjee: It’s up to you, you don’t have to speak on anything you’re not comfortable with. Roger Charles: Well I’ll just say, it's a very fashionable subject today about sexual harassment and always, of course, you know, with the cases of Harvey Weinstein and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, all that stuff went on back then, and the professors were just as bad as everybody else will know. Not a lot, but some of the professors certainly chased the girls. So and you would be far better off talking to some of the females of my age about sexual harassment because I'm sure they got a lot of it. Roger Charles: Or not a lot of it, but certainly it was obvious and nobody though anything of it. The feminist movement was precisely targeted to that sort of thing as a pushback that women are not just sex objects and sex toys for forbidden pleasure. Roger Charles: So no doubt that stuff existed. But as a man, hey, did you think it was particularly bad? You know you went to see a James Bond movie and they were terribly sexist. In fact most movies were terribly sexist. If you look at the movies of the day, the idea of having sex with a 16 year-old was normal. Not today. But you weren’t a pariah for doing those sorts of things. So it's very difficult for me to talk about that stuff because it was an accepted norm that is no longer acceptable. Roger Charles: The other thing was you know what? (And I come back to it) The big dynamic in Ottawa, was whether Quebec was going to separate or not. Roger Charles: And the French to be fair you know, I had a lot to do with Quebec in throughout the 60s and 70s and no society in Canada changed more than Quebec did. So it used to be in Quebec the power of the Catholic church, but today you know, nobody goes to church in Quebec anymore. And then so the social revolution. and so that brought on partly by the desire for Quebec independence. Roger Charles: And the and the combination of the pill and urbanization and all these things had a far, far, far greater impact on uh, Quebec society and French society Than it did on English Canadian society, which was the dominant society and the conflict was primarily an in the French conflict. And the conflict is never over. Roger Charles: And so it was, I think a much more sensitive issue at all where you precisely because it was a bilingual university. , I certainly went out and I'm having a good relationship with French people that I knew girls and boys, uh, there, there, there was considerable, um, these two solitudes between the English and French. Roger Charles: Well, it’s still pretty substantive. In my view I'm certainly very glad I went to Ottawa U at the time, Ottawa U and Carlton were seeing roughly equal. Even Carlton seen a bit better. Now, It's clear that Ottawa is much, much, much, much better. I think great value added propositions precisely because it has been or is the biggest bilingual university in Canada, if not the world. Roger Charles: and it was a triumph of the administration that Ottawa U assume to keep that, that that dynamism and that, that intercultural engagement under some fairly tough times politically in Canada. So I think if there was, if there's a schematic underline or at Ottawa you during those that period it was the management of a university that had its feet in both camps, both French and English Canada, and where there was times Potential for a real physical conflict, you know? Roger Charles: But the FLQ, where we're blowing up post boxes and in 1970 of course there was the War Measures Act because a bunch of people got killed. And so U Ottawa would have in the thickness of the political dynamic, so I think its to the credit of the administration of the day I think, to manage the two, the dynamics at the university, again in hindsight, very well. And the university, I think is blessed and that said, benefited tremendously by being a bilingual university. Matthew Bhamjee: Alright. Thank you. I think that’s all I need. --END OF FORMAL INTERVIEW-- Transcription Translation LES 5 PREMIÈRES MINUTES DE L'ENTRETIEN N'ONT PAS ÉTÉ ENREGISTRÉES EN RAISON DE PROBLÈMES TECHNIQUES. LE DÉBUT DE LA TRANSCRIPTION ENREGISTRÉE EST LA RÉPONSE DE MR. ROGER CHARLES À LA TROISIÈME QUESTION DE SUIVI DE LA PREMIÈRE QUESTION PRINCIPALE : (Ottawa était une institution bilingue. Dans quelle mesure était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique au cours des années 1970 ; les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient-ils aux mêmes cours universitaires et participaient-ils aux mêmes clubs ?) Roger Charles : Beaucoup de francophones qui ont étudié à l'Université d'OƩawa étaient en fait des Franco-ontariens. Si le Québec s'était séparé [du Canada], ils auraient consƟtué une minorité beaucoup moins importante. Roger Charles : Je pense que la communauté française par rapport à la communauté anglaise, il y avait deux dynamiques. La première, je dirais, était l'aƩrait ou l'aƩracƟvité d'un Québec indépendant. Et je dirais probablement que la majorité des francophones (qui n'étaient pas conservateurs) auraient appuyé le ParƟ québécois et l'indépendance à l'époque. Roger Charles : Ce qui, bien sûr, n'a jamais conduit à un conflit physique entre Anglais et Français à l'Université d'OƩawa, mais cela a créé une dynamique et une expérience très difficiles par rapport à Carleton, qui était très anglophone. MaƩhew Bhamjee : Anglo-saxon presque ? Roger Charles : Oui, très blanche, parce que les étudiants étrangers, les étudiants étrangers à l'époque étaient une minuscule, minuscule, minuscule, minuscule minorité. Donc [Carleton] était vraiment à l'époque une université anglaise. Roger Charles : Il s'agissait donc bien à l'époque d'une université anglaise. Roger Charles : Beaucoup de professeurs venaient des États-Unis. Abonnez-vous à DeepL Pro pour éditer ce document. Visitez www.DeepL.com/pro pour en savoir plus. Roger Charles : Et c'est parce que, dans les années 60, les universités ont explosé. Vous savez, jusqu'aux années 60, il y avait une université pour la Colombie-Britannique, une université de Toronto et une université du Manitoba. Un peu comme les universités d'État aux États-Unis. Et vous savez, toutes les petites universités comme Brock, Concordia, euh et Carleton ont toutes explosé et il n'y avait pas assez de professeurs au Canada pour combler les places. Il y a donc eu beaucoup de recrutement. Roger Charles : Donc, dans ma faculté en particulier, oui, je dirais, oui, je pense certainement que la moitié du personnel était américaine. Roger Charles : Ils parlaient tous français. C'était une condition préalable, bien sûr, dans notre cours, vous ne pouviez pas enseigner à moins de parler français et le français est très bon, même si les accents sont un peu bizarres, mais le français est très bon. Dans notre secteur, il y avait donc beaucoup d'Américains, mais des Américains bilingues. Roger Charles : Donc, pour ce qui est de l'endroit où se trouver dans les années 70, c'était assez intéressant et dans le sens où euh, le Canada traversait des tensions beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup plus graves sur le plan politique. Euh, cela résonnait dans le Canada français et anglais à l'époque. Et cela s'est reflété dans une large mesure dans les défis, je pense, tant au niveau administratif qu'au niveau du corps étudiant. Roger Charles : Il y avait donc essentiellement trois universités en tout et pour tout. Il y avait Carlton, l'université anglaise, l'Université du Québec, l'université française et l'Université d'Ottawa, l'université bilingue, mais plus orientée vers le français. Matthew Bhamjee : Ok, alors qu'est-ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet ? Passons à la question suivante. Nous utilisons le terme "culture de la fête" pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors des cours. Pouvez-vous décrire la culture de la fête sur le campus dans les années 70 ? Roger Charles : Encore une fois, j'étais étudiant diplômé. Je ne vivais pas sur le campus. J'avais plusieurs colocataires et nous partagions une maison, vous savez, euh, au centre-ville d'Ottawa à l'époque. Ma culture de la fête était donc limitée. Quand j'ai quitté le campus, à part quelques amis occasionnels, j'ai quelques amis avec qui je suis toujours ami depuis l'époque où j'étais à l'Université d'Ottawa. Roger Charles : mais mes activités sociales sur le campus étaient assez minimes, mais la grande, grande, grande, grande différence entre aujourd'hui et maintenant et à l'époque, c'est que fumer était encore courant. C'était encore considéré comme sophistiqué. S'enivrer était considéré comme quelque chose de viril, euh, et pour avoir des relations sexuelles avec une fille, il fallait qu'elle soit ivre, du point de vue d'un homme évidemment. Roger Charles : Mais la notion que boire est mauvais pour la santé, que fumer est mauvais pour la santé, et tout ce genre de choses, se saouler et ensuite monter dans une voiture et conduire, toutes ces choses qui sont considérées comme illégales ou socialement inacceptables aujourd'hui ne l'étaient pas à l'époque. Roger Charles : Dans un sens, je suppose que lorsque vous parlez de la culture de la fête, ce n'était pas seulement l'Université d'Ottawa, c'était [toutes] les universités en général qui la pratiquaient. Roger Charles : Sortir, boire, fumer, avoir des relations sexuelles et toutes ces choses qui sont, vous savez, la norme hollywoodienne des universités, rien de tout cela n'était considéré comme mauvais, d'un point de vue moral ou sanitaire à l'époque. Les gens n'ont donc pas beaucoup réfléchi à l'impact particulier de ces activités sur la santé. Roger Charles : monter dans une voiture et s'enivrer Toutes ces choses, vous savez, l'alcool au volant, les campagnes anti-tabac, le mouvement de libération des femmes, toutes ces choses avaient commencé et commençaient à avoir un impact sur les comportements sur le campus mais elles n'avaient pas atteint le stade où elles devenaient (comme dans le cas de l'alcool au volant)g les lois devenaient de plus en plus strictes mais elles n'étaient pas telles que monter dans une voiture et s'enivrer était considéré comme une véritable infraction pénale. Roger Charles : La plupart des gens fumaient encore. L'ironie, aujourd'hui, c'est que la cigarette est le pire des délits, pire que la drogue. À l'époque, c'était bien sûr l'inverse. Roger Charles : Non, je pense que la contrainte - je ne sais pas quelle est la culture de la fête à l'université, j'enseigne maintenant à l'université de Vancouver, mais je ne fréquente pas mes étudiants, alors qu'à l'époque, il n'était pas interdit aux professeurs d'université d'avoir des relations sexuelles avec leurs étudiantes. Matthew Bhamjee : Vraiment ? Diriez-vous que c'était, je ne veux pas dire courant, mais plus répandu à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui ? Roger Charles : Oui, parce que maintenant, si vous couchez avec une de vos étudiantes, vous êtes viré. Alors qu'avant, c'était plutôt un clin d'œil, un clin d'œil, on ne disait plus rien. Donc nous avons certainement, j'ai certainement connu des professeurs qui vérifiaient toujours les étudiants de première année et je parle des professeurs masculins et féminins. Je parle des étudiants de première et deuxième année. Ce n'était donc pas rare. Roger Charles : Toutes ces choses qui sont aujourd'hui considérées comme mauvaises, vous savez sur les campus, fumer des cigarettes, se saouler, draguer les femmes, étaient considérées comme normales à l'époque. On peut donc dire que c'est le cas. Si vous définissez la culture de la fête comme toutes ces choses, alors oui, il y avait une culture de la fête, mais ce n'était pas le cas. Matthew : Wow. D'accord. D'accord, nous allons passer à la deuxième section. Je pense que vous en avez parlé très brièvement, mais il s'agit de l'expérience féminine et des normes de genre. Selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada dans les années 70 ? Roger Charles : Certainement, si vous regardez les films des années 60, d'Hollywood. Mais juste, juste en général, le sexisme, vous savez, regardez les films de James Bond des années 60 et regardez ceux qui ont été faits dans les années 2010. Les normes sociales sont radicalement différentes. Si vous regardez un film des années 60, il est normal que les femmes soient soit des mères, soit des objets sexuels. Roger Charles : Au fur et à mesure que les femmes allaient à l'université et s'instruisaient, et que la société passait d'une société rurale à une société urbaine, elles ont commencé à exiger, à juste titre avec le recul, un plus grand respect. Il est donc arrivé à plusieurs reprises que le mouvement féministe soit perçu comme un mouvement de femmes qui ne portent pas de soutien-gorge, qui ne se rasent pas les jambes ni les aisselles et qui portent des bottes militaires. Roger Charles : Et donc cette transition était certainement, très consciente de ce changement d'attitude envers les femmes à l'université et cela, vous savez, incluait des gens, des hommes comme moi. vous savez, vous étiez toujours attiré par les femmes et vous les convoitiez toujours, mais les femmes devenaient certainement beaucoup plus conscientes et conscientes de leurs propres droits en tant qu'individus plutôt que la vieille blague, vous savez, une femme allait à l'université pour obtenir un baccalauréat, le baccalauréat. et cette attitude de trouver un mari qui subviendrait aux besoins était définitivement en train de changer. Roger Charles : Les femmes que j'ai connues au cours de mes études supérieures étaient plutôt indépendantes d'esprit. Qui voyaient leur vie en termes de carrière et non en termes de mari ou de famille. Roger Charles : Je dirais que les années 70 ont été la période où le mouvement féministe a vraiment commencé à s'implanter dans l'université. Roger Charles : Cela dit, je pense que socialement, la plupart des femmes et des hommes qui sont encore censés se marier sont encore censés avoir des enfants. Mais ce n'était plus un choix automatique par défaut, et ce changement nuancé était le résultat et le reflet du mouvement féministe, qui a vraiment démarré à la fin des années 60 et est devenu encore plus prononcé dans les années qui ont suivi. Matthew Bhamjee : Il y a donc beaucoup de changements ? Roger Charles : Oui, mais avec le recul, dans 50 ans, quelqu'un vous contactera probablement pour vous demander ce que vous faisiez à l'époque. Quand vous êtes là-bas, vous vivez dans le cadre de l'expérience que vous vivez et des normes sociales que vous acceptez comme étant les normes d'aujourd'hui. En ce sens, les choses ont changé de manière spectaculaire par rapport à aujourd'hui, mais on ne se réveille pas avec une sorte de moment Eureka. La vie et les normes sociales changent toutes, ne faut-il pas s'en accommoder ? Roger Charles : Ce n'est qu'avec le recul que l'on se rend compte de la situation dans laquelle nous nous trouvons aujourd'hui et que l'on regarde où l'on était il y a 50 ans et que l'on se rend compte qu'une transition était en cours, mais que l'on n'était pas, que l'on n'était pas complètement complexé. Roger Charles : La plupart des hommes étaient très dédaigneux à l'égard du mouvement féministe et les considéraient comme de vilaines lesbiennes. Mais en réalité, le travail accompli par la plupart des féministes pour changer la mentalité des hommes et de la société en général a été absorbé et le fait qu'il y ait aujourd'hui plus de femmes que d'hommes dans les universités est le résultat de cette transition. Matthew : Ok, donc pour la question suivante, diriez-vous qu'il y avait des programmes à l'université, des départements ou des clubs où les femmes étaient moins présentes, acceptées ou représentées ? Roger Charles : Tous les clubs de sport, je pense, certainement le football, le hockey, vous savez, et c'était encore des sports dominés par les hommes. Les femmes, si nous faisons du sport, je pense qu'à cette époque, nous sommes encore très humm genre d'amateur pour la plupart. Roger Charles : Je pense que les GG de l'Université d'Ottawa étaient à l'époque une équipe de football très performante. Ils avaient beaucoup de succès, bien plus que Carleton à l'époque. Et l'équipe de hockey sur glace. Je pense donc que la plupart du temps, les équipes sportives étaient encore perçues comme des équipes masculines. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il y avait des sports féminins intercollégiaux, mais je ne pense pas qu'ils jouaient le même rôle que les grandes équipes sportives. Roger Charles : Et encore une fois, à cette époque, et même aujourd'hui, dans une certaine mesure, je pense qu'ils essaient de changer la mentalité selon laquelle les femmes allaient dans les sciences plus douces, donc on s'attendait toujours à ce que les femmes aillent dans les soins infirmiers. J'avais des amies qui étaient des femmes et qui se destinaient à la médecine. Le nombre de femmes qui s'orientaient vers les professions médicales augmentait donc très rapidement. Roger Charles : Il y a eu très peu de croisements, je pense, entre les deux clubs et je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu une grande fusion de ces systèmes de valeurs à l'époque. Matthew Bhamjee : D'accord. Juste pour vous rassurer, nous sommes toujours bien meilleurs que Carleton au football. Roger Charles : D'accord, je suis heureux de l'entendre. Matthew Bhamjee : Je crois qu'on en est à 5 jeux de panda d'affilée ou quelque chose comme ça. Roger Charles : Vous savez, je connais le propriétaire des Red Blacks d'Ottawa, John Ruddy. Lui et moi sommes allés à l'école ensemble et il a joué [au football] à Carleton. J'ai donc appris à connaître un peu les équipes de football parce que je l'ai connu et qu'il est devenu un promoteur très prospère. C'est pourquoi je pense qu'il a ramené l'équipe de football de Carlton en raison des liens qu'il avait tissés dans les années 70 en jouant au football là-bas. Roger Charles : Je voudrais ajouter une chose. J'étais très ami avec Maureen McTeer, l'épouse de Joe Clark, qui est devenu premier ministre en 1980. Je m'en souviens très bien, elle était un très bon exemple de l'évolution des femmes dans les années 70. Je suis allée au lycée avec elle, à Saint Pat's, puis j'ai fait mes études à l'UBC. Mais nous nous sommes retrouvées à l'Université d'Ottawa et à ce momentlà, elle était une femme déterminée et indépendante et elle a fait des études de droit à l'Université d'Ottawa. Roger Charles : Elle était donc une très bonne illustration de la nouvelle femme, la femme de ma génération, la génération des baby-boomers, car elle était très déterminée. Elle avait de grandes ambitions politiques. Elle savait qu'elle voulait être avocate et qu'elle n'allait pas devenir mère simplement parce qu'elle était une femme. Roger Charles : Et la dernière fois, je me souviens vraiment m'être assis sur le campus avec elle pour discuter. À cette époque, c'est-à-dire à la fin des années 70, elle avait épousé Joe Clark. Elle m'a raconté qu'elle allait devenir chef de l'opposition au père de Justin Trudeau, qui était encore Premier ministre à ce moment-là et qui se présentait, et qu'ils l'ont eu et qu'elle est devenue la femme du Premier ministre, Joe Clark. Et beaucoup de gens l'ont détestée précisément parce qu'elle a fait valoir son indépendance. Elle n'était pas la personne assise à l'arrière, silencieuse et humble, elle est sortie et a fait valoir ses droits. Les deux livres et tout le reste. Elle était donc une très bonne illustration de la façon dont les femmes prenaient leur vie en main et devenaient des professionnelles. Roger Charles : Au lieu d'épouser des hommes et d'avoir des enfants, elles étaient tout à fait déterminées à mener une vie indépendante. Elle et les femmes que j'ai connues et qui sont devenues médecins ont donc été la première vague, la grande vague de femmes affirmant une vie professionnelle indépendante devenant beaucoup, beaucoup plus répandue. Matthew Bhamjee : Très bien, nous allons passer à la troisième partie. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, et sur le fait que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure, dans votre cercle social, les gens considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur, comme vous le dites ? Roger Charles : Je n'en suis pas sûr. Je pense que toutes les générations se considèrent comme révolutionnaires et défiantes. Mais vous savez, ce qui caractérise notre génération, les baby-boomers, c'est que nous sommes à l'université et que nous sommes la première génération à avoir vraiment eu de la chance. En effet, mes parents sont partis à la guerre, ils ont grandi pendant la dépression, puis après la guerre, c'était les années glorieuses, des années 50 aux années 70. Roger Charles : Les économies occidentales, y compris l'économie canadienne qui, à l'époque de la fin des années 60 et des années 70, était encore le deuxième pays le plus riche du monde. Aujourd'hui, nous nous situons aux alentours de la 15e ou de la 20e place. Nous avons donc eu la chance de bénéficier d'un système de santé et de toutes sortes de choses qui ont rendu nos vies plutôt agréables. Roger Charles : Vous savez, la guerre du Vietnam se déroulait aux États-Unis et certains Américains partaient à la guerre. Mais les Canadiens n'étaient pas confrontés à ce genre de traumatisme. Et nous n'avions pas de conscription. Roger Charles : Si vous deviez me demander quel a été le plus grand changement dans le système de valeurs qui s'est produit, c'est la pilule. Vous savez, quand les femmes pouvaient avoir des relations sexuelles sans avoir à s'inquiéter de tomber enceintes. Ensuite, il y a eu une libération sexuelle et tout le reste, qui a provoqué un énorme changement mental, tant pour les femmes que pour les hommes. Ainsi, l'idée que si vous aviez des relations sexuelles avec une femme, vous deviez l'épouser parce que vous risquiez de tomber enceinte n'existait plus. Roger Charles : Et puis, bien sûr, les drogues sont devenues assez populaires. Tout cela est basé sur un taux de chômage de 2 ou 3 % et une croissance économique de 2, 3 ou 4 %, etc. Mais dans les années 70, les choses ont commencé à changer. Il n'y avait plus de droit automatique à un emploi à la sortie de l'université. Ainsi, lorsque vous avez parlé dans votre préambule des années 70 comme d'un âge ennuyeux pour la plupart des gens, je pense que c'est à cause des excès des années 60 et de la révolution ou de la réaction au conservatisme ou au traditionalisme que nos parents ont dû considérer avec eux, parce que les modèles économiques qui avaient abouti à la croissance de la société économique occidentale au cours des 25 années précédentes échouaient. Et donc, par définition, les gens sont devenus plus réservés et plus conservateurs. Roger Charles : Et bien sûr, en fin de compte, cela a abouti à un grand désastre, dans un sens, qu'à partir des années 80, nous avons le reflux conservateur. Et ce que nous voyons quand le chaos fait aux ÉtatsUnis aujourd'hui et Pierre Poilievre de et le parti populaire aujourd'hui est un reflet de toutes les choses, umm, que nous avons commencé comme une réaction à la situation économique qui se déroulait dans les années 70. Roger Charles : Je ne suis pas sûr que l'on puisse dire que notre génération est vraiment révolutionnaire, les gouvernements des baby-boomers sont une source d'embarras pour votre génération. Je regarde Trump et beaucoup de gens qui ont le pouvoir, Xi Jinping en Chine, Modi en Inde et Erdogan, ils font tous partie de ma génération et je pense que ce sont des gens horribles. Ils font tous partie de ma génération et je pense que ce sont des gens horribles. Roger Charles : Donc oui, je suis sûr qu'il s'agit d'une réaction culturelle, pas d'une révolution. Matthew Bhamjee : Sur ce point, je pense que les gens deviennent parfois un peu plus conservateurs en vieillissant. Je suis sûr que cela m'arrivera, et en plus de cela, peut-être que ces personnes au pouvoir étaient plus privilégiées lorsqu'elles étaient plus jeunes et qu'elles n'ont donc pas eu la même perspective. Donald Trump n'aurait pas nécessairement été affecté par les effets de la guerre du Viêt Nam parce que son père s'est assuré qu'il n'était pas enrôlé ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Roger Charles : Bill Clinton, lui aussi, a échappé à l'appel sous les drapeaux. Tous les présidents américains et George W. Bush ont donc échappé à l'appel sous les drapeaux parce qu'ils le pouvaient. Quoi qu'il en soit, c'est une autre histoire. Matthew Bhamjee : D'accord. Je pense que nous avons le temps pour une dernière question. Est-ce que vous aimeriez poser la question sur la sexualité et le harcèlement, ou préférez-vous continuer sur la voie des protestations et de la contre-culture ? Roger Charles : Je pense que la sexualité et le harcèlement, je ne sais pas... Matthew Bhamjee : C'est à vous de décider, vous n'êtes pas obligé de parler de ce qui vous met mal à l'aise. Roger Charles : Je dirai simplement que le harcèlement sexuel est un sujet très à la mode aujourd'hui, bien sûr, avec les affaires d'Harvey Weinstein et tout ce genre de choses. Et oui, toutes ces choses se passaient à l'époque, et les professeurs étaient tout aussi mauvais que tout le monde le sait. Pas beaucoup, mais certains d'entre eux couraient certainement après les filles. Vous feriez donc mieux de parler de harcèlement sexuel à des femmes de mon âge, car je suis sûre qu'elles en ont subi beaucoup. Roger Charles : Ou pas beaucoup, mais c'était évident et personne n'en pensait rien. Le mouvement féministe s'est précisément attaqué à ce genre de choses pour montrer que les femmes ne sont pas seulement des objets sexuels et des jouets sexuels pour le plaisir interdit. Roger Charles : Il ne fait donc aucun doute que ces choses ont existé. Mais en tant qu'homme, avez-vous pensé que c'était particulièrement mauvais ? Vous savez, vous êtes allé voir un film de James Bond et ils étaient terriblement sexistes. En fait, la plupart des films étaient terriblement sexistes. Si vous regardez les films de l'époque, l'idée d'avoir des relations sexuelles avec une jeune fille de 16 ans était normale. Ce n'est plus le cas aujourd'hui. Mais on n'était pas un paria pour ce genre de choses. Il m'est donc très difficile de parler de ce genre de choses, car il s'agissait d'une norme acceptée qui n'est plus acceptable aujourd'hui. Roger Charles : L'autre chose, c'est que (et j'y reviens) la grande dynamique à Ottawa, c'était de savoir si le Québec allait se séparer ou non. Roger Charles : Pour être honnête, j'ai beaucoup travaillé au Québec dans les années 60 et 70 et aucune société au Canada n'a changé autant que le Québec. Au Québec, le pouvoir de l'Église catholique était très important, mais aujourd'hui, plus personne ne va à l'église au Québec. Et puis il y a eu la révolution sociale, qui a été provoquée en partie par le désir d'indépendance du Québec. Roger Charles : Et la combinaison de la pilule et de l'urbanisation et de toutes ces choses a eu un impact beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup plus grand sur euh, la société québécoise et la société française que sur la société canadienne anglaise, qui était la société dominante et le conflit était principalement un conflit français. Et le conflit n'est jamais terminé. Roger Charles : Et donc c'était, je pense que c'était une question beaucoup plus sensible là où vous précisément parce que c'était une université bilingue. Je suis sorti et j'ai eu de bonnes relations avec des Français que je connaissais, filles et garçons, mais il y avait des solitudes considérables entre les Anglais et les Français. Roger Charles : Eh bien, c'est encore assez important. À mon avis, je suis très heureux d'être allé à l'Université d'Ottawa à l'époque, car l'Université d'Ottawa et Carlton étaient à peu près sur un pied d'égalité. Même Carlton était un peu mieux loti. Maintenant, il est clair qu'Ottawa est beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup mieux. Je pense qu'elle offre une grande valeur ajoutée, précisément parce qu'elle a été ou est la plus grande université bilingue du Canada, voire du monde. Roger Charles : Et c'était un triomphe de l'administration que l'Université d'Ottawa a assumé pour garder ce, ce dynamisme et cet, cet engagement interculturel dans des temps assez difficiles politiquement au Canada. Donc je pense que s'il y a eu, s'il y a un soulignement schématique à Ottawa pendant cette période, c'était la gestion d'une université qui avait les pieds dans les deux camps, le Canada français et le Canada anglais, et où il y avait parfois un potentiel pour un vrai conflit physique, vous savez ? Roger Charles : Mais le FLQ, on faisait sauter des boîtes postales et en 1970, bien sûr, il y a eu la Loi sur les mesures de guerre parce qu'un tas de gens ont été tués. L'Université d'Ottawa aurait donc été dans l'épaisseur de la dynamique politique, alors je pense que c'est à l'honneur de l'administration de l'époque de gérer les deux, la dynamique à l'université, encore une fois avec le recul, très bien. Et l'université, je pense, est bénie et cela dit, a énormément bénéficié du fait d'être une université bilingue. Matthew Bhamjee : D'accord. Je vous remercie. Je pense que c'est tout ce dont j'ai besoin. --FIN DE L'ENTRETIEN FORMEL Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Charles, Roger (Interview) Type The nature or genre of the resource person Description An account of the resource Testimonial about time at the University of Ottawa during the 1970s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Matthew Bhamjee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource No Audio Captured Language A language of the resource English 1970s Campus Life Canadian History English-French Relations Feminist Movement University Culture University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date <em>1952</em> Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended University of Ottawa, 1971-1975 McGill, 1976-1980 University of Ottawa, 1992-1997 Degree PhD MA Professional degree Career professional education Occupation Nurse Professor Biographical Text Did not provide. Ethnicity chose not to respond Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Translation Aidan Mclean Nous sommes le mardi 24 octobre à 11h00. Aidan Mclean Je m'appelle Aidan McLean et aujourd'hui je vais interviewer JESSICA H.. JESSICA H. Oui. Aidan Mclean La question principale de notre entretien d'aujourd'hui porte sur la culture. Aidan Mclean Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Ottawa était une institution bilingue, et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés les uns aux autres. Aidan Mclean Comment vos loisirs étaient-ils structurés et qu'est-ce que vous faisiez pour vous amuser, vous les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa, dans les années 1970 ? JESSICA H. D'accord, de mon point de vue, mon programme était très exigeant, avec beaucoup d'heures de travail et... JESSICA H. Je dirais que vous savez, il n'y avait pas beaucoup de temps libre. JESSICA H. Euh, mais je me souviens que je vivais en résidence, donc mon point de vue est celui de quelqu'un qui a vécu en résidence et j'ai en fait vécu dans la résidence Stanton. Aidan Mclean Oh oui, c'est là que j'ai vécu. JESSICA H. Oui, à l'époque, c'était réservé aux femmes. JESSICA H. Et Marchand à côté, c'était pour les hommes seulement. JESSICA H. Et je pense que lorsque j'étais en deuxième ou troisième année, peut-être en troisième année, Thompson Hall a ouvert et c'était vraiment important parce que c'était pour les hommes et les femmes et je ne me souviens pas qu'il y avait des hommes. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'il y avait un mélange de chambres, donc c'était vraiment important. JESSICA H. Mais contrairement à d'autres institutions où je me souviens de certaines résidences et d'autres endroits où les hommes n'étaient pas du tout autorisés à monter dans votre chambre, il y avait une liberté totale ici à l'université. JESSICA H. Alors ma vie sociale, j'allais à des fêtes qui se déroulaient parfois dans le quartier central de la résidence. Aidan Mclean Oui, c'est ça. JESSICA H. Euh, je me souviens que des amis et moi-même sortions pour dîner et boire un verre. Nous ne pouvions nous permettre qu'un seul verre, alors cela nous suffisait pour toute la nuit. JESSICA H. C'était notre grande sortie. JESSICA H. Je me souviens, comme je l'ai dit, j'avais environ 40 heures de cours par semaine, y compris les cours cliniques. JESSICA H. Il n'y avait donc pas beaucoup de temps libre et je pense que lorsque vous êtes dans une école professionnelle, vous avez tendance à être très concentré et dévoué parce que vous avez un objectif final à atteindre. JESSICA H. Je dirais donc que notre expérience est probablement différente de celle des étudiants du programme artistique, par exemple, qui ont beaucoup de travail, mais qui ont plus de temps libre. Aidan Mclean Y a-t-il un endroit particulier, sur le campus ou à l'extérieur, que vous appelleriez en quelque sorte votre lieu de rencontre principal ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, il y avait un restaurant. JESSICA H. Il n'existe probablement plus et j'essaie de me rappeler où il se trouvait. JESSICA H. La rue Rideau, bien sûr, le Centre Rideau n'existait pas. JESSICA H. Je me souviens qu'il y avait une épicerie sur Rideau et qu'il suffisait d'acheter suffisamment de provisions pour pouvoir les rapporter dans un sac en papier. JESSICA H. Les sacs à dos n'existaient pas. JESSICA H. Et donc, oui, j'achetais juste assez de provisions pour pouvoir les rapporter. JESSICA H. Je n'avais pas de plan de repas, alors je faisais mes repas dans ma chambre. JESSICA H. J'avais une poêle à frire. JESSICA H. Et peut-être que c'était tout dans un petit frigo, mais ma croissance n'existait pas. Aidan Mclean Ohh. JESSICA H. Alors oui, vous ne pouvez pas imaginer la vie sans les micro-ondes, n'est-ce pas ? Aidan Mclean Oui, c'est un peu long. JESSICA H. Oui, c'est vrai. Aidan Mclean Vous avez donc mentionné que les résidences autres que Thompson étaient principalement séparées par sexe. JESSICA H. Oui. Aidan Mclean Ottawa étant la plus grande institution bilingue au monde ou la plus grande école au monde ? Aidan Mclean Avez-vous constaté que, les francophones et les anglophones étaient séparés ? Aidan Mclean Ou pensez-vous qu'ils étaient ensemble ou dans quel sens pensez-vous qu'ils interagissent ? JESSICA H. Je peux parler pour notre classe, l'enseignement était entièrement en anglais à l'époque, donc je pense que le nombre de programmes francophones était assez limité à l'époque. JESSICA H. Les programmes de sciences de la santé étaient tous en anglais seulement, et il y avait donc quelques étudiants francophones dans notre classe, probablement environ un quart de la classe au maximum. JESSICA H. Et ils avaient tendance à rester entre eux. JESSICA H. Et je ne me souviens pas d'avoir vu des francophones dans notre résidence, donc nous avions surtout des étudiants anglophones. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Cela a beaucoup changé au fil des ans. JESSICA H. Je dirais qu'il n'était pas vraiment bilingue. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'à l'époque, tout simplement parce que les programmes étaient tous en anglais et que le niveau de bilinguisme chez les gens comme moi était vraiment bas. JESSICA H. Cela a donc changé en l'espace d'une génération. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Pourquoi pensez-vous que ce changement s'est produit ? JESSICA H. Je veux dire que nous n'avions tout simplement pas accès à l'enseignement français. Aidan Mclean Est-ce que c'était une pratique courante sur le campus, avec des anglophones et des francophones qui se fréquentaient dans les années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Hmm. JESSICA H. Oui JESSICA H. Oui, je dirais que cela s'est produit. JESSICA H. Je suis sorti avec un francophone pendant un petit moment. JESSICA H. Umm, donc je pense que cela s'est produit. JESSICA H. Je pense que les francophones qui venaient à l'Université d'Ottawa à cette époque. JESSICA H. Nous avions aussi de très bonnes compétences en anglais, probablement. Nous avons aussi de très bonnes connaissances en anglais, probablement. Aidan Mclean OK, donc pour eux, cela ressemblait plus à une institution anglophone. Aidan Mclean Ils pensaient donc qu'ils avaient besoin de cela. JESSICA H. Eh bien, cela dépendait de votre programme. JESSICA H. Dans les arts et les sciences, c'était nettement plus fort en français, mais pas dans les écoles professionnelles. JESSICA H. Et bien sûr, en droit, il y avait la common law et le droit civil. Aidan Mclean Umm. JESSICA H. Le droit civil était en français, donc cela dépendait vraiment de votre programme. Aidan Mclean D'ACCORD. JESSICA H. Notre programme a changé pour devenir bilingue quelques années après que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme. Aidan Mclean Nous utilisons le terme "culture de la fête" pour faire référence aux activités sociales en dehors de la classe. la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? dans les années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Je ne pense pas être la bonne personne pour en parler, parce que je ne peux vraiment parler que de notre point de vue et je ne décrirais pas notre groupe comme un groupe de fêtards. JESSICA H. Je sais que certains membres de notre groupe vivaient en dehors du campus. JESSICA H. Ils faisaient probablement plus la fête. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. J'entendais des histoires à leur sujet, mais le groupe en résidence. JESSICA H. Umm, eh bien, c'était juste, vous savez, je ne faisais pas beaucoup la fête, mais d'autres la faisaient certainement. JESSICA H. Mais je ne dirais pas que l'université est une université qui fait la fête. Aidan Mclean Il n'y a pas grand-chose qui a changé aujourd'hui dans ce sens Aidan Mclean Dans les années 70, il y a eu beaucoup de grands événements sociaux et politiques. JESSICA H. Oui. Aidan Mclean Comment les étudiants ont-ils réagi et que pensaient-ils de la guerre du Viêt Nam ? JESSICA H. Je pense que la guerre du Viêt Nam suscitait des inquiétudes. JESSICA H. Je ne me souviens pas précisément s'il y a eu des manifestations sur le campus. JESSICA H. Euh, la seule protestation dont je me souvienne était celle des étudiants. JESSICA H. Euh, sur le campus principal, nous étions à l'extrémité du campus, nous étions dans le bâtiment de l'ingénierie à ce moment-là. Aidan Mclean D'ACCORD. JESSICA H. Et je me souviens que les étudiants les avaient installés près du bâtiment administratif et que ces bâtiments organisaient un rassemblement pour protester contre l'augmentation des frais de scolarité et... JESSICA H. Et je me souviens qu'aucun d'entre nous n'avait l'intention d'y aller parce que c'était pendant les heures de cours ou de clinique ou quelque chose comme ça. JESSICA H. Et donc ce n'était même pas une option. Aidan Mclean Diriez-vous que c'était peut-être une petite partie du corps étudiant qui était intéressée par ce genre de manifestations civiles ? JESSICA H. Umm, je dirais que oui. JESSICA H. Encore une fois, je présente le point de vue de quelqu'un qui est dans une école professionnelle et je pense que c'est très, très différent, comme ces gens qui étaient en médecine et en soins infirmiers et qui savaient déjà quel était leur plan de carrière. Aidan Mclean C'est tout à fait vrai. JESSICA H. Et ils n'allaient pas faire quoi que ce soit pour le compromettre, donc je pense. Aidan Mclean Juste avant les années 70, les artistes de rock'n'roll étaient bien sûr très présents dans les années 60 et ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Aidan Mclean Vos parents considéraient-ils le rock'n'roll comme une forme de rébellion ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire ? JESSICA H. Je ne pense pas qu'ils le considéraient comme rebelle. JESSICA H. Mes parents ? JESSICA H. Non. Non. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Dans les années 1970, certaines voix de la culture des jeunes ont encouragé la prise de récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur les campus au cours des 1970s ? JESSICA H. Je suis sûr que c'était le cas. JESSICA H. Cela ne faisait pas du tout partie de mon expérience. Aidan Mclean D'ACCORD. JESSICA H. Euh, je pense que je me souviens l'avoir vu plus souvent quand j'étais au lycée. Aidan Mclean Oui, c'est vrai. JESSICA H. Mais encore une fois, c'était une école professionnelle et il y avait peut-être des mais. JESSICA H. Non, cela ne faisait pas du tout partie de ma vie. Aidan Mclean Bon, le deuxième thème de cet entretien concerne l'expérience féminine. Aidan Mclean C'est un sujet sur lequel vous avez peut-être un peu plus de recul. JESSICA H. Oh oui, j'ai encore beaucoup de choses à dire. Aidan Mclean Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, selon lequel, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Presque certainement. JESSICA H. Les soins infirmiers sont donc majoritairement féminins. JESSICA H. Et c'était le cas. JESSICA H. Tous mes camarades de classe étaient des femmes. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Je pense que c'était une expérience différente, mais je me souviens d'avoir été exposée à beaucoup de féminisme et d'avoir lu beaucoup de choses sur les rôles des hommes et des femmes. JESSICA H. Et je pense que je dirais que c'est plutôt les changements qui se sont produits d'une génération à l'autre. JESSICA H. C'était un grand changement, oui. Aidan Mclean Selon vous, que signifiait le féminisme au Canada au début des années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, je pense qu'avant cela, bien que les femmes aient participé à la Seconde Guerre mondiale, la plupart d'entre elles sont retournées à leurs rôles traditionnels, c'est-à-dire rester à la maison et s'occuper des enfants. JESSICA H. Et c'est le mari qui faisait carrière. Aidan Mclean Mm-hmm. JESSICA H. Et ce schéma traditionnel a complètement changé. Même lorsque je choisissais ma carrière, les possibilités étaient assez limitées pour les femmes. JESSICA H. On s'attendait à ce que vous deveniez enseignante, infirmière ou secrétaire. JESSICA H. C'est-à-dire qu'on ne pensait même pas à la possibilité d'être ingénieur ou à toute une série de choses. JESSICA H. Je me souviens que mes parents disaient qu'il était important que mon frère aille à l'université, mais que ce n'était pas aussi important pour moi d'aller à l'université parce que j'allais me marier de toute façon. JESSICA H. Le monde traditionnel des femmes. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes de l'Université d'Ottawa, je sais que vous avez déjà mentionné les départements de soins infirmiers, y avait-il des clubs où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptées ? JESSICA H. Oui, je n'en faisais pas partie. JESSICA H. Je n'en suis pas sûre, mais je l'ai constaté au fur et à mesure que l'on commençait à travailler, mais non, je ne peux pas vraiment faire de commentaires à ce sujet. Aidan Mclean Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? JESSICA H. Une société juste ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, je pense qu'il y avait une prise de conscience à ce sujet et probablement que certaines des injustices se reflétaient dans le rôle des femmes. JESSICA H. C'est vrai. JESSICA H. Je suis sûre que nous avons abordé la question de la pauvreté, qui est devenue beaucoup plus importante. JESSICA H. Oui, d'autres types d'inégalités, je pense qu'en tant que jeune personne, vous vous concentrez sur votre propre vie et sur le fait de démarrer votre propre vie. JESSICA H. Je me souviens donc que les règles fondées sur le genre constituaient une grande partie de ce contre quoi je me rebellais et que je voyais cela même dans l'environnement professionnel, dans une certaine mesure, et que cela a beaucoup changé pour la génération de mes filles et de mes fils. Aidan Mclean Je sais que vous en avez parlé un peu plus tôt, mais dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, je caractériserais certainement certaines des attitudes de mes parents par le fait que les enfants doivent être vus et non entendus. Aidan Mclean Ok, c'est intéressant. JESSICA H. Et donc le fait d'avoir une conversation autour de la table, ce qui était peut-être inhabituel. JESSICA H. N'était pas attendu. JESSICA H. Vous savez, nous étions censés être silencieux. JESSICA H. Pour que mon père puisse être tranquille quand il rentrait du travail. JESSICA H. Les rôles étaient très rigides, il y avait les rôles des hommes et des femmes au sein du foyer. Umm. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'il en va de même pour l'éducation des enfants. JESSICA H. Umm, ma mère n'était pas du tout favorable à ce que je fasse carrière. JESSICA H. Elle aimait l'idée que j'aille à l'école et que je reçoive une éducation, mais elle ne m'encourageait pas à faire carrière parce que si vous aviez des enfants, ils allaient devenir des délinquants. JESSICA H. Il y a eu un énorme changement. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'il est probablement difficile pour vous d'imaginer un monde comme celui où vous étiez, où les femmes ne travaillaient pas et où les pères ne participaient pas à l'éducation des enfants. JESSICA H. Mon père s'est très peu impliqué dans mon enfance. JESSICA H. Et c'était simplement parce que c'était son rôle. JESSICA H. Mais mon mari s'est impliqué dans tous les aspects de l'éducation des enfants et nous avons partagé les tâches ménagères en fonction de l'intérêt qu'elles suscitaient, et non pas en fonction du fait qu'il s'agissait d'un travail masculin. JESSICA H. Et ça, c'est un travail de femme. JESSICA H. Il y a donc beaucoup de changements. JESSICA H. Nous avons certainement élevé nos enfants en leur faisant croire qu'ils pouvaient faire ce qu'ils voulaient et qu'ils n'étaient pas martelés par le fait qu'ils étaient un homme ou une femme. Aidan Mclean Pensez-vous que cette vision plus rigide et plus structurée des rôles des hommes et des femmes que vous aviez avec vos parents vous a empêché d'être aussi proches que vous l'êtes aujourd'hui avec vos enfants ? JESSICA H. Il est presque certain que je n'ai pas été très proche de mes parents à cause de toutes les frictions, alors que je suis très, très proche de nos enfants et de nos petits-enfants, oui. Aidan Mclean C'est très bien. Aidan Mclean Dans les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne vous semblait le plus déréglé et le plus à corriger ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, encore une fois, je regarderais probablement l'attitude à l'égard des femmes. JESSICA H. Je l'ai constaté en tant que femme de carrière. JESSICA H. J'ai trouvé très frustrant d'être victime de discrimination. Lorsque j'ai cherché mes premiers emplois, j'ai dû enlever ma bague de fiançailles parce que les personnes qui m'interviewaient remarquaient que j'avais une bague de fiançailles et commençaient à me demander si j'allais me marier et à quel moment. JESSICA H. Et il y avait une réticence à embaucher des femmes, des jeunes diplômées qui allaient se marier parce qu'ils supposaient qu'elles auraient des enfants. JESSICA H. Et qu'elles ne pourraient pas poursuivre leur carrière. Aidan Mclean Hmm, vous pensez que c'était un préjugé contre vous à cause de cela ? JESSICA H. Oh oui, tout à fait, tout à fait. JESSICA H. Comme je l'ai dit, j'ai dû enlever ma bague. Aidan Mclean Oui, c'est vrai. JESSICA H. Je veux dire, c'est du jamais vu, n'est-ce pas ? Aidan Mclean Oui, ce serait très problématique aujourd'hui JESSICA H. À notre époque, et je me souviens d'une interview. JESSICA H. C'était après que j'ai eu mes enfants, et on me demandait si j'avais des enfants. JESSICA H. Ohh vous avez une fille et un garçon. JESSICA H. Oh, c'est bien. JESSICA H. Eh bien, c'est peut-être la fin de leurs enfants, parce qu'on vous a demandé quand vous alliez avoir d'autres enfants lors de votre entretien d'embauche. JESSICA H. On ne l'a jamais demandé aux hommes, mais aux femmes, oui. Aidan Mclean Quelles étaient les principales formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne des années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Je sais qu'il y en avait d'autres. JESSICA H. Umm. JESSICA H. Je suppose que pour moi, c'était le "it" ? JESSICA H. J'étais très en colère contre les injustices faites aux femmes. JESSICA H. Euh, donc je pense que je me concentrais sur cela plus que sur d'autres choses. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'en vieillissant, je suis devenue plus consciente des injustices en général. Aidan Mclean Des questions qui vous concernent. JESSICA H. Mais à l'époque où j'étais plus jeune, j'essayais en quelque sorte d'établir ma carrière et j'étais très concentré sur les injustices que j'avais l'impression de subir, oui. Aidan Mclean Pensez-vous que le système politique des années 70 était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, il y avait des choses qui sortaient comme... JESSICA H. Soutenir les femmes de carrière. JESSICA H. Ils ont donc introduit. JESSICA H. Le congé de maternité, lorsqu'il a été introduit pour la première fois, était de trois mois. JESSICA H. Donc, les amies qui avaient des enfants devaient reprendre le travail dans les trois mois, sinon elles perdaient leur emploi. JESSICA H. C'était dur et... JESSICA H. Mais je considère que maintenant, un an de congé maternité est très courant et que les aides à la garde d'enfants commençaient tout juste à se mettre en place. Aidan Mclean Je suppose qu'avant l'introduction du congé de maternité, il fallait choisir entre avoir des enfants et avoir un emploi. JESSICA H. Oui, oui. JESSICA H. Je me souviens avoir travaillé avec une femme qui avait presque l'âge de ma mère. JESSICA H. Je dirais que c'est juste pour vous donner une idée des attitudes et je me souviens qu'elle m'a dit qu'elle avait le droit de travailler. JESSICA H. Son mari l'autorisait à travailler à condition qu'elle fasse toutes les tâches ménagères avant d'aller travailler. JESSICA H. J'étais donc entourée de ce genre d'attitudes. Aidan Mclean D'ACCORD. JESSICA H. Et je suppose que je me suis beaucoup concentrée sur les injustices envers les femmes et que je les ai ressenties tout au long de ma carrière, de différentes manières. Aidan Mclean C'est donc une autre de nos questions principales. Aidan Mclean Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations hommes-femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. Aidan Mclean Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? Aidan Mclean Diriez-vous ? JESSICA H. Oui, oui, sans aucun doute. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Donc je pense que jusqu'à cette époque, les hommes pouvaient être sexuellement actifs, mais les femmes ne pouvaient pas l'être parce qu'il y avait un risque de grossesse. JESSICA H. Mais je pense que cela a beaucoup changé les choses. Aidan Mclean Pensez-vous qu'avec l'introduction de la pilule, la promiscuité sexuelle est devenue un peu plus acceptable pour les femmes, comme elle l'était déjà pour les hommes ? JESSICA H. Non, je ne pense pas que c'était acceptable. JESSICA H. Non. Aidan Mclean D'ACCORD. JESSICA H. S'il y avait encore deux normes, certainement. JESSICA H. Oui, je pense que cela a pris quelques années de plus et je pense que cela n'existe pas encore dans une certaine mesure aujourd'hui. Aidan Mclean Je suis d'accord avec cela, personnellement. Aidan Mclean Oui, je dirais que c'est le cas. JESSICA H. Les deux normes, oui, oui. Aidan Mclean À quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? JESSICA H. Quoi ? JESSICA H. Quel genre de rencontre recherchez-vous ? Aidan Mclean Est-ce que ces relations étaient peut-être, euh, comme quelqu'un qui commence à sortir avec quelqu'un, qui se fiance et qui se marie avec cette personne ? Aidan Mclean Ou est-ce qu'il s'agissait plutôt de relations à court terme et peut-être plutôt d'un grand nombre de relations ou simplement de sortir avec quelqu'un et de voir ce qu'il y a dans le coin ? JESSICA H. Vous savez, notre groupe de camarades de classe était peut-être plus traditionnel que d'autres étudiants d'autres programmes, mais je dirais que... JESSICA H. Ohh, la moitié ou les trois quarts d'entre nous probablement. JESSICA H. Nous nous sommes fiancés à la fin de nos études et nous nous sommes mariés peu de temps après. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Beaucoup de mes camarades de classe n'ont pas eu leur premier enfant avant la trentaine. Je dirais donc que la plupart d'entre nous sortaient ensemble, mais que nous avions aussi l'intention de nous marier. Aidan Mclean C'était donc plutôt un style de relation à long terme. JESSICA H. Oui, je pense que oui. Aidan Mclean OK, comment votre génération voyait-elle la famille et le mariage ? JESSICA H. Eh bien, je crois. JESSICA H. Problème Je pense que c'était un changement par rapport à la génération de nos parents en ce qui concerne le partenariat, comme je l'ai mentionné plus tôt. JESSICA H. Je me souviens d'avoir eu ces conversations avec mon mari pour savoir quels seraient nos rôles. Et. JESSICA H. Et l'attente que nous partagions, et mon mari m'a énormément soutenue dans ma carrière et ma progression de carrière, et cela n'aurait pas été possible sans son soutien. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Mais. JESSICA H. Vous savez, ce partage, ce partenariat et le fait que les deux carrières sont aussi importantes l'une que l'autre. JESSICA H. Il y a eu des moments dans la carrière où l'un avait un travail plus exigeant que l'autre, et il y a eu des concessions et des concessions. JESSICA H. Comme ça, mais je pense que le partenariat, je ne vois pas vraiment que la génération de mes parents était un partenariat au même titre que le partage des responsabilités. JESSICA H. Je dirais que même si j'ai eu des conversations avec nos enfants, ils perçoivent que la façon dont nous envisagions notre mariage et l'éducation des enfants était un peu en avance sur notre temps. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. La plupart de mes amis ont adopté une règle similaire. JESSICA H. Ils ne savent rien de différent, mais de leur point de vue, les autres parents étaient différents. Aidan Mclean Pensez-vous qu'en raison de votre programme à prédominance féminine, vous avez peut-être acquis une vision plus moderne et plus féministe de ce à quoi un couple et une famille traditionnels peuvent ressembler ? JESSICA H. C'est possible, et nous avions, dans le cadre de notre éducation, de nombreux cours de psychologie et de sociologie, donc nous étions peut-être un peu plus conscientes. JESSICA H. Et l'autre chose, c'est que si vous avez mis tous ces efforts dans votre éducation, vous n'alliez pas ne pas les utiliser lors des réunions. JESSICA H. J'ai vu que c'était peut-être le cas. JESSICA H. Jusqu'à un quart d'entre elles n'ont peut-être pas fini par travailler à plein temps ou à l'extérieur de la maison. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. La grande majorité d'entre nous a travaillé à l'extérieur de la maison et a fait carrière. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Nous avons une autre section potentielle, bien que celle-ci soit facultative. Aidan Mclean Il s'agit de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Aidan Mclean La section suivante est facultative et concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Aidan Mclean Nous sommes conscients que tout le monde ne se sentira pas à l'aise avec ces questions et nous tenons à réaffirmer que votre participation est entièrement volontaire. Aidan Mclean Vous pouvez choisir de ne pas répondre aux questions qui vous mettent mal à l'aise ou de sauter cette section. Aidan Mclean Voulez-vous participer à cette section ? JESSICA H. Ce n'est pas quelque chose que j'ai vécu. Aidan Mclean Je peux vous lire les questions si vous le souhaitez. JESSICA H. D'accord, je vais voir. JESSICA H. Je ne sais pas si je peux. JESSICA H. Il y a certainement eu de la discrimination. JESSICA H. OK, continuez avec les questions. Aidan Mclean Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été contraintes de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Aidan Mclean Dans quelle mesure les autorités universitaires ont-elles surveillé les soirées et les événements sociaux pour assurer la sécurité des femmes ? JESSICA H. Oh, je ne m'en souviens pas du tout. JESSICA H. Je ne m'en souviens pas du tout. Aidan Mclean OK, notre génération s'intéresse au mouvement de l'amour libre. Aidan Mclean Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? Aidan Mclean Était-elle perçue négativement, acceptée ou même encouragée ? JESSICA H. Je dirais qu'on l'acceptait, mais je ne dirais pas qu'on l'encourageait. JESSICA H. C'est resté privé. JESSICA H. Je veux dire que l'université en tant que telle n'avait aucune politique en la matière. JESSICA H. Il n'y avait aucun contrôle par rapport aux autres résidents qui contrôlaient les interactions des étudiants dans les dortoirs. Aidan Mclean Je sais que vous avez mentionné tout à l'heure que la perception était un peu différente pour les garçons et les filles. Aidan Mclean C'était vraiment quelque chose que l'on pouvait ressentir dans l'atmosphère de l'époque ? JESSICA H. Oh, je pense que oui. JESSICA H. Je pense que oui. JESSICA H. Ce n'était pas seulement l'université, c'était la société dans son ensemble. Aidan Mclean OK, les membres de la génération de vos parents s'inquiétaient-ils des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? JESSICA H. Oui, sans aucun doute. Aidan Mclean Est-ce que c'est quelque chose dont ils vous ont parlé, dont ils vous ont fait honte ou contre lequel ils vous ont mis en garde ? JESSICA H. Oh, je pense que mes parents étaient très inquiets que je sois enceinte avant la fin de mes études. JESSICA H. Quand j'ai commencé à sortir avec mon mari, oui, je pense qu'ils étaient inquiets. JESSICA H. Je pense qu'ils ont été soulagés lorsque je me suis mariée et que je n'étais toujours pas enceinte. Aidan Mclean J'ai réussi à aller jusqu'au bout. JESSICA H. Oui, c'est vrai. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Merci beaucoup de nous avoir consacré du temps. Aidan Mclean C'était très bien. Aidan Mclean Vous avez été un excellent interlocuteur. JESSICA H. Je vous remercie. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Aidan Mclean It is Tuesday, October 24th at 11:00 AM. Aidan Mclean My name is Aidan McLean and today I will be interviewing JESSICA H. JESSICA H. Yes. Aidan Mclean Great. Aidan Mclean So, the main question of our interview today is generally about culture. Aidan Mclean Cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. Aidan Mclean How was your leisure time structured and what did you uOttawa students do for fun in the 1970s? JESSICA H. OK, so from my perspective my program was very demanding with lots of hours and I would say you know, so there wasn't a lot of free time. JESSICA H. Uh, but I remember I lived in residence, so my perspective is from someone who lived in residence and I actually lived in Stanton residence. Aidan Mclean Oh Yeah, that's where I lived. JESSICA H. Yeah, at that time, it was for women only. JESSICA H. And Marchand beside there was for men only. JESSICA H. And I think when I was in maybe second or third year, maybe third year as it was during third year, Thompson Hall opened up and this was a really big deal because it was for men and women and I can't remember they had men. JESSICA H. I think they had it mixed like by rooms, so that was a really big deal. JESSICA H. But unlike other institutions where I remember some residences and other places where men wouldn't be allowed up into your room at all, there was complete freedom here at the university. JESSICA H. So my social life they had parties sometimes at the central area of the residence. Aidan Mclean Yeah. JESSICA H. Uh, I remember friends and myself going out for dinner and one drink we could only afford one drink, so that would do us the whole night. JESSICA H. That was our big outing. JESSICA H. I remember as I said, I had about 40 hours of classes a week, including clinical. JESSICA H. So there wasn't a lot of spare time and I think when you're in a professional school, you tend to be very focused and dedicated because you've got an end goal in sight. JESSICA H. So I would say that our experience is probably different than students in the arts program, for instance, who you know have lots of work, but they had more free time and such. Aidan Mclean Is there any particular place on or off campus that you would say you would kind of call your main hangout spot so to speak? JESSICA H. Well, there was a restaurant. JESSICA H. It probably doesn't exist anymore and I'm trying to remember where it was. JESSICA H. Rideau St, of course, the Rideau Center didn't exist. JESSICA H. I remember there was a grocery store on Rideau and so you just buy enough groceries that you could carry it back in a paper bag. JESSICA H. Backpacks didn't exist. JESSICA H. And so yeah, I just carried enough groceries. JESSICA H. I didn't have a meal plan, so I made meals in my room. JESSICA H. I had a frying pan. JESSICA H. And maybe that was it and a little fridge, but microwaves didn't exist. Aidan Mclean Ohh. JESSICA H. So yeah, you can't imagine life without microwaves eh? Aidan Mclean Yeah, that is quite a time. JESSICA H. Yeah. Aidan Mclean So you mentioned that the residences other than Thompson were segregated by gender and also by language. JESSICA H. Yes. Aidan Mclean Ottawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s; did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? JESSICA H. Oh well I can speak for our class so our instruction was all in English at that time so I think the amount of francophone programs were quite limited at that time. JESSICA H. So the Health Sciences programs were all in English only, and so there were some francophone students in our class, probably about 1/4 of the class at the most. JESSICA H. And they tended to hang around with themselves. JESSICA H. And I don't recall any francophones in our residence, so ours was mostly anglophone students. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. It's changed dramatically over the years. JESSICA H. I would say it wasn't really that bilingual. JESSICA H. I would think that at that time, just because the programs were all in English at that time and the level of bilingualism amongst people like myself was really low. JESSICA H. So that changed in a generation. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Why do you think that change happened? JESSICA H. I mean, we just didn't have access to French education. Aidan Mclean Was this a prevalent thing on campus with anglophones and francophones dating each other during the 1970s? JESSICA H. Hmm. JESSICA H. Yes JESSICA H. Yes, I would say that occurred. JESSICA H. I went out with a francophone guy for a little while. JESSICA H. Umm, so I think that that went on. JESSICA H. I think maybe the Francophones who came to the University of Ottawa at that time had very strong English skills as well, probably. Aidan Mclean OK, so it seemed more like an anglophone institution to them. Aidan Mclean So they felt that they needed that. JESSICA H. Well, it depended on your program. JESSICA H. So in arts and science, it was definitely stronger in French, but not the professional schools. JESSICA H. And of course, in law they had common law and civil law. JESSICA H. Civil law would have been in French, so it really depended on your program. Aidan Mclean OK. JESSICA H. Now our program changed to become bilingual a few years after I graduated. Aidan Mclean We use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? JESSICA H. I don't think I'm a good person to talk about that, cause I can really only talk about our perspective and I would not describe our group as a party group. JESSICA H. I know there was some in our group who lived off campus. JESSICA H. They probably partied more. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. I would hear stories about them, but the group in residence. JESSICA H. Umm well, it was just, you know, I didn't party a lot, but others certainly did. JESSICA H. But I would not call the university a party university. Aidan Mclean Not to much has changed today in that sense. Aidan Mclean So during the 1970s you had a lot of large social and political events happening. JESSICA H. Yes. Aidan Mclean So how did the student body react and what did they think about the Vietnam War? JESSICA H. I think there was concern about the Vietnam War. JESSICA H. Umm, I don't recall specifically if there were protests on campus. JESSICA H. Uh, the only protest I remember was the students. JESSICA H. Uh, on the kind of the main campus we were at the end of the campus, we were in the engineering building at that time. Aidan Mclean OK. JESSICA H. And I remember the students had them near the admin building and those buildings were organizing a rally to protest the increase in tuition fees. JESSICA H. And I remember none of us were going to go because it was during class time or clinical or something. JESSICA H. And so it just wasn't even an option. Aidan Mclean So would you say that maybe it was a smaller portion of the student body was interested in civil protesting like that? JESSICA H. Umm, I would say so. JESSICA H. Again, I'm presenting the perspective of someone who is in a professional school and I think it's very, very different, like those people that were in medicine and nursing and they already knew what their career path was. Aidan Mclean Very true. JESSICA H. And they weren't going to do anything to jeopardize it, so I think. Aidan Mclean So just prior to the 1970s, rock'n'roll artists were, of course a very large, large mainstream thing in the 60s and have promoted various forms of protests. Aidan Mclean Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? JESSICA H. I don't think they thought of it as rebellious. JESSICA H. My parents? JESSICA H. No. No. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? JESSICA H. I'm sure it was. JESSICA H. It wasn't part of my experience at all. Aidan Mclean OK. JESSICA H. Uh, I think I remember seeing it probably more when I was in high school. Aidan Mclean Oh yeah. JESSICA H. But again, it was a professional school and there may have been some but. JESSICA H. No, it wasn't a part of my life at all. Aidan Mclean OK, so for the second theme of this interview is it's about the female experience. Aidan Mclean Something you might have a little more insight into. JESSICA H. Oh yes, I have a lot more to say. Aidan Mclean Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? JESSICA H. Almost definitely that. JESSICA H. So nursing is predominantly female. JESSICA H. And so it was. JESSICA H. Almost all of my classmates were women. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. So I think that made a different experience too but I saw this was I remember being exposed to a lot of feminism and reading a lot about gender roles. JESSICA H. And I think I would say that was more the changes that occurred from one generation to the next. JESSICA H. That was a big change, yeah. Aidan Mclean So in your own words, what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? JESSICA H. Well, prior to then, although women were involved during the Second World War, most women went back to traditional roles of staying home and caring for the children. JESSICA H. And the husband was the one with the career. Aidan Mclean Mm-hmm. JESSICA H. And that that traditional pattern got changed completely. Even when I was choosing careers, it was quite limited for women. JESSICA H. You were expected that you would go into teaching or nursing or secretarial. JESSICA H. Mean the thought that you could be an engineer or the whole range of things wasn't even thought about. JESSICA H. I remember my parents saying it was important that my brother go to university, but it wasn't as important for me to go to university because I was gonna get married anyways. JESSICA H. The traditional world for women. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean In the 1970s, were there uOttawa programs, I know that you already mentioned nursing departments were there clubs where women were less present and accepted. JESSICA H. Yeah, I didn't belong to any. JESSICA H. So I'm not sure, certainly as it became working, I saw that, but no, I can't comment on that really. Aidan Mclean OK, so one of our other main sort of questions is Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents’ generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more-just society and better world? JESSICA H. Well, I think there was an awareness of that and probably some of the injustices reflected around women's role. JESSICA H. I'm sure we addressed poverty and that has become much more to the forefront and yeah, other kinds of inequalities, I think as a young person, you kind of focused on your own life and getting your own life started. JESSICA H. So I remember gender-based rules being a big part of what I was rebelling against and seeing that even in the work environment to quite an extent and how that has changed so much for my daughters and son's generation. Aidan Mclean So I know you touched on this earlier a little bit, but to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? JESSICA H. Well, certainly I would characterize some of my parents attitudes that children were to be seen and not heard. Aidan Mclean Ok interesting. JESSICA H. And so having conversation around the dinner table and which may have been unusual. JESSICA H. Was not expected. JESSICA H. You know, we were supposed to be quiet. JESSICA H. So my father could have some quiet time when he came home from work. JESSICA H. Roles were very rigid there was men's roles and women's roles in terms of the household. JESSICA H. Umm, my mother was not at all supportive of me having a career. JESSICA H. She liked the idea that I was going to school and getting educated, but there was no support for having a career because if you had children they were going to be delinquents. JESSICA H. There has been a huge change. JESSICA H. I think it's probably hard for you to imagine a world like that where you were women didn't work and fathers didn't share in the child rearing. JESSICA H. My father was very limited in his involvement in my growing up. JESSICA H. And it was just because that's the role. JESSICA H. But my husband was involved with every aspect of child rearing and we shared it and we shared the household chores and they were divided up based on interest, not whether this is a male kind of job. JESSICA H. And this is a female kind of job. JESSICA H. So there are a lot of changes. JESSICA H. Certainly when we raised our children to believe that they could do whatever they wanted and they weren't hammered by the fact they were a man or a woman. Aidan Mclean Do you think that sort of this, more rigid and structured view of gender roles that you had with your parents made it harder for you guys to be as close as you may now be with your children? JESSICA H. Almost definitely I ended up not being very close to my parents because of all the friction, whereas I'm very, very close to our children and grandchildren, yeah. Aidan Mclean That's good. Aidan Mclean Looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? JESSICA H. Well, again, I would probably look at the attitude towards women. JESSICA H. I found it as a career woman. JESSICA H. I found it very frustrating to be discriminated against, so when I was seeking my first jobs, I had to take off my engagement ring because the people interviewing me would notice I had an engagement ring and would start talking about whether I was getting married and when it was getting married. JESSICA H. And there was a reluctance to hire women, young graduates who were going to be married because they assumed that they would have children. JESSICA H. And then they wouldn't be able to continue in their career path. Aidan Mclean Hmm, you think it was a bias against you because of that? JESSICA H. Oh yes, definitely definitely. JESSICA H. Well, as I said, I had to take my ring off. Aidan Mclean Yeah. JESSICA H. I mean, that's unheard of, isn't it? Aidan Mclean Yeah, that would be very problematic today JESSICA H. In this day and age, and I remember an interview. JESSICA H. This was after I had my children and they kind of go around and they'd say ”so you have any children?” JESSICA H. Ohh I have a girl and a boy. JESSICA H. “Oh, that's nice they’d” say JESSICA H. Well, maybe that's the end of their children because you were asked about when you were having more children in your job interview. JESSICA H. Men were never asked that, but women were. Aidan Mclean What were the principal forms of injustice in Canadian society during 1970s? JESSICA H. Well, I know there were others. JESSICA H. Umm. JESSICA H. I guess for me it was the it? JESSICA H. I used to get very angry about the injustices towards women. JESSICA H. Uh, so I think I was focused on that more than other things. JESSICA H. I think as I got older, I became more aware of broadly the injustices. Aidan Mclean Issues that pertain to you. JESSICA H. But at the time I was younger, I was kind of trying to establish my career and was very focused on the fact of the injustices I felt I was going through, yeah. Aidan Mclean Did you feel that the political system in the 1970s was democratic, fair and responsive to citizen’s needs. JESSICA H. Well, there were things coming out such as. JESSICA H. To support career women. JESSICA H. So they did introduce. JESSICA H. Maternity leave when it was first introduced, it was three months. JESSICA H. So, friends who had children were back at work in three months, or they'd lose their job. JESSICA H. So that was hard. JESSICA H. But I consider, you know now a year's maternity leave is very common and the supports that were their childcare was just starting to come about. Aidan Mclean So I so I guess that before maternity leave was introduced, there was a it was almost like a choice between having children or having a job. JESSICA H. Yes, yes. JESSICA H. I remember I worked with a woman who was, umm, almost the age of my mother. JESSICA H. I would say just to give you an idea of attitudes and I remember her telling me that she was allowed to work. JESSICA H. Her husband permitted her to work as long as she did all the housework before she went to work. JESSICA H. So you know, I was just surrounded by those kinds of attitudes. Aidan Mclean OK. JESSICA H. And I suppose I was quite focused on the injustices towards women and felt it throughout my career in different ways. Aidan Mclean So this is another one of our main questions. Aidan Mclean Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology, change gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Aidan Mclean Do you agree with that statement? Aidan Mclean Would you say? JESSICA H. Yes, yes, most definitely. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. So I think up to then it was all right for men to be sexually active, but women couldn't be because that was the risk of pregnancy. JESSICA H. But I think that changed things a lot. Aidan Mclean Do you think that with the introduction of the pill it made sexual promiscuity a little bit more acceptable for women as it was already a little more acceptable for men. JESSICA H. No, I don't think it was acceptable. JESSICA H. No. Aidan Mclean OK. JESSICA H. There was still 2 standards, most definitely. JESSICA H. Yeah, I think it took a few more years and I think that still exists to a certain extent today too. Aidan Mclean I agree with that, personally. Aidan Mclean Yes, I would say there is. JESSICA H. The two standards, yeah. Aidan Mclean So what did dating look like at the University of Ottawa during the 1970s? JESSICA H. What? JESSICA H. What kind of are you looking for? Aidan Mclean Were these relationships dating for marriage? Aidan Mclean Or were they more sort of short-term and maybe more like a high volume of relationships or just sort of dating around and seeing you what there is out there? JESSICA H. You know, maybe our group of classmates were perhaps more traditional than other students from other programs, but I would say. JESSICA H. Ohh half or 3/4 of us probably. JESSICA H. Were engaged by the time we were graduating and we got married shortly after. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Although many of my classmates didn't have their first child until in their 30s, so I would say that probably most of us were dating, but then with the view to marry. Aidan Mclean So it was more of a long-term relationship style. JESSICA H. Yes, I think so, yeah. Aidan Mclean OK, so how did your generation look at the family and marriage? JESSICA H. Well, I think. JESSICA H. Probably I think it was a change from our parents' generation in that it was the partnership as I mentioned earlier. JESSICA H. So certainly when I remember having these conversations with my husband to be about, what would our roles be. JESSICA H. And the expectation that we would share responsibility and certainly my husband's been tremendously supportive of my career and my career progression and it wouldn't have been possible without his support. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. But. JESSICA H. You know, just kind of that sharing and that partnership and the fact that both careers are equally important. JESSICA H. There were times in my career where one had a job that was more demanding than the other, and so there was give and take. JESSICA H. But I think a partnership, I don't really see that my parents' generation was a partnership in the same way as sharing of responsibilities. JESSICA H. I would say that although when I've had conversations with our children, they perceive that the way we viewed our marriage and child rearing was a little ahead of the time. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. Most of my friends took a similar rule. JESSICA H. They don't know anything different, but from their perspective, other parents were different. Aidan Mclean Do you think that maybe because of your, more female-dominated program you maybe got more of a sort of modern and more like feminist sort of view on what a traditional couple and family might look like? JESSICA H. It could be, and we had as part of our education, lots of courses in psychology and sociology, so we were perhaps a bit more aware. JESSICA H. And the other thing is, if you're going to put all this effort into your education, you weren't about to not use it. JESSICA H. I've seen that maybe. JESSICA H. Up to 1/4 maybe didn't end up working full time or outside the home. Aidan Mclean Hmm. JESSICA H. The vast majority of us did work outside the home and had career paths. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean We have one other potential section, although this one is an optional section. Aidan Mclean It's about sexuality and harassment. Aidan Mclean The following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. Aidan Mclean We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate, that you're participation is entirely voluntary. Aidan Mclean You may choose not to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. Aidan Mclean So would you like to participate in this section? JESSICA H. It's not something I experienced. Aidan Mclean I can read out the questions to you if you’d like. JESSICA H. OK, I'll see. JESSICA H. I don't know if I can comment. JESSICA H. Certainly there was discrimination. JESSICA H. OK, go ahead with the questions. Aidan Mclean Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. Aidan Mclean To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? JESSICA H. Oh, I don't recall that at all. JESSICA H. Yeah. Aidan Mclean OK, our generation is interested in a free love movement. Aidan Mclean What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? Aidan Mclean Was it viewed negatively accepted or even encouraged? JESSICA H. I would say accepted wouldn't say it was encouraged. JESSICA H. It was kept private. JESSICA H. I mean the university per se had no policy on it at all. JESSICA H. There were no controls that as compared to other residents did control the interactions of students in dormitories. Aidan Mclean I know you mentioned earlier that there was a bit of a different perception for boys and girls. Aidan Mclean That was definitely something you could like to feel in the atmosphere at the time or? JESSICA H. Oh I think so. JESSICA H. I think so. JESSICA H. It was not just the university, it was society as a whole. Aidan Mclean OK, did the members of your parents' generation worry about premarital sex? JESSICA H. Yes, most definitely. Aidan Mclean Was this something they would sort of tell you guys about or shame you guys about or like, warn you against? JESSICA H. Oh, I think my parents were very worried I would be pregnant before I finished school. JESSICA H. When I started dating my husband, yeah, I think there was a worry there. JESSICA H. I think they were quite relieved once I got married and I still wasn't pregnant. Aidan Mclean Made it to the end. JESSICA H. Yeah. Aidan Mclean OK. Aidan Mclean Thank you very much for volunteering your time for this. Aidan Mclean It was great. Aidan Mclean You were a great interviewee. JESSICA H. Thank you. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview McLean, Aidan Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource H, Jessica (interview) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about student life on the uOttawa campus in the 1970s covering student life, social issues of the time, and generational differences. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McLean, Aidan Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gumboc, Reyana Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maxted, John Location The location of the interview Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Reyana Gumboc started transcription Reyana Gumboc 0:03Believe it's recording.OK.So the first main theme is the impact of popular culture and I have a statement here.A cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture, and Ottawa was a more bilingual institution.So we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together.And now here's a question.There were less electronics in society at the time.How is your leisure time structured?What do you do for fun in the 1970s? John Maxted 0:53I missed part of that question.How was what structured? Reyana Gumboc 0:56Your leisure time structured. John Maxted 0:57Later. Reyana Gumboc 0:59Yeah. John Maxted 1:01Well, I mean, I guess I have to start my answer to that question by stating that I didn't have a lot of leisure time.I mean, I had a couple of goals and at that point in time and these were lifetime goals and that was to establish myself as a doctor at that point in time.Although I became a family doctor, I didn't know that's what I would become. Reyana Gumboc 1:25Mm-hmm. John Maxted 1:26I was really most interested in graduating with an MD and then choosing or before that choosing what kind of specialty I'd like to go into.So I mean, I had spent the previous few years.Yeah, in preparation for beginning university, which started in 1968 and then ended in 1974 at the University of Ottawa.Umm I had started as a being very involved in trying to make enough money to be able to go to university and to attend university and to pay the costs that were associated, especially with medicine, which costs were usually a little higher.So even while I was getting ready to go to university, and even when I started university in 1968, I was holding down a few part time jobs.Umm.And and then when I started University, of course I I started in what was called the Pre Med medicine program at University of Ottawa and we were the last contingent of students that were allowed to start that program.The benefits of that program were tremendous.If I could keep my average at a certain level for the next two years, I was guaranteed a position in the program in medicine.When I started in 1970, which is exactly what happened, I was able to maintain my average and enjoy those first two years, which were kind of like a science program.And then went on to medicine.So I was devoting a lot of time to those objectives and quite frankly, I didn't have a lot of time for leisure activities that were our better social things going on in my life, some of them surrounding my church, some of them surrounding my friends. Reyana Gumboc 3:04Yeah. John Maxted 3:18But quite frankly, I was being driven by trying to get my education and trying to become what I wanted to become. Reyana Gumboc 3:25Sure.Yeah.So the next question is about hangout spots.So you would not usually hang out.What would you say were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? John Maxted 3:39Well, as time evolved I I mean I can't remember the first couple of years that I've mentioned to you as being the premed years, but most definitely in pre Med.We were still involved in the Faculty of Medicine because that was managed by the faculty in medicine and so as time evolved, we became more and more involved in what was called the ice Glapion Society, which was a club or association.I guess it would be more than a club in the basement.It physically was situated in the basement of the faculty and medicine on Nicholas Street in downtown Ottawa and and we used to we used to meet there a lot. Reyana Gumboc 4:12Well. John Maxted 4:18We would meet there between classes and we would have, you know, both familiar personal as well as professional and more formal educational discussions and questions.But it was kind of a place where we could let loose.Umm, I don't recall there ever being any alcohol served in that in that place, except there may have been an occasional party where we had some beer or something like that, but I can't even recall that. Reyana Gumboc 4:39Yeah. John Maxted 4:45But it was really I a collecting center where in medicine we could collect and and the share our thoughts and feelings and let loose a little bit.And I would say that that was primarily where where we had a lot of social interactions.There were some of my friends who met in the Albion, which was a nearby beer parlor down the street a little ways.I didn't usually go there myself, but some I knew I knew some of my friends went there sometimes. Reyana Gumboc 5:16OK, I think I've heard of the Albion, but I've never been.I don't know if it's still up.The next questions are about live music events.Seeing that you're such shown so you were so education driven, you probably didn't go too many live music events, did you?No. John Maxted 5:35No, it didn't.In fact, you know, one of the things that we did have that was an attraction at the university at the time where the gigis umm, that, that that was the football team and they're being a fan of football. Reyana Gumboc 5:37All right.Ohh yeah. John Maxted 5:48I did enjoy going to a few of the Gigi football games and so that was also an outlet for some relief from time to time. Reyana Gumboc 5:57Mm-hmm.So the next question here is about bilingualism.Uh, were there any integrated bilingual courses at the time or clubs? John Maxted 6:15No, there was.There was definitely no courses that I took that were I I don't know exactly how you're defining bilingualism, but there were no courses in French that I took at the time.The university obviously was trying to become more bilingual and trying to integrate French into the language of the university.I think it's succeeded more in the last several years than it did at that time, but it was certainly not.There was no animosity.There was no ill feelings about that happening.In fact, as a as a student within University of Ottawa, I welcome that opportunity because my French actually my languages skills had been one of my areas of excellence when I was in high school and I had received awards for that.So I was quite happy to be at a university where I may be forced to some extent to speak French, but quite frankly I wasn't forced very much and and when I was forced or when I had to understand French, the French language, I welcomed that opportunity.But unfortunately it wasn't to the extent that I ever became bilingual or became able to speak French fluently. Reyana Gumboc 7:30OK.Umm.By like bilingual, I mean like, umm, francophones and anglophones, enrolling in same courses and joining the same clubs.But did you know if any anglophones and francophones dated each other at the time?Like was that a thing? John Maxted 7:50I don't think there was any barrier or any question of that not being OK or not not being OK. Reyana Gumboc 7:54OK. John Maxted 7:57Umm, you know, we had French speaking ohm students in my class and I we made good friends and you know there was no, there was no feelings of one against the other.I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this questioning, but but it was never a consideration that there was a difference between French speaking or English speaking people. Reyana Gumboc 8:14Yeah. John Maxted 8:20We welcomed each other and we were great friends with each other. Reyana Gumboc 8:24Well, that's good.I think it's about the same now these aren't my questions.They're just given to me so everyone can read them out. John Maxted 8:30They're almost suggesting that there was a problem, but there was no problem at all. Reyana Gumboc 8:33Yeah. John Maxted 8:35In fact, it and I, I think the absence of a problem results in the absence of consideration to some extent, and it was no consideration as to whether we should promote one language over the other or one culture over the other. Reyana Gumboc 8:35Oh, that's good.Yeah.OK.And so moving on the next question is about party culture.Now you said that you aren't.You didn't really do that.Kind of stuff, but did you know anyone who did or how they would describe the priority John campus? John Maxted 9:08I think the party culture mainly, I mean, I've already told you about the escalating society and we did have a few parties there from time to time. Reyana Gumboc 9:16Umm. John Maxted 9:16Umm, I've also told you about the Albion Club where there was maybe occasional party.Umm, we would probably occasionally go to and then some of the students lived in Ottawa as I did too.I'm, but occasionally I think I mean, as with most classes, there were groups that formed within the class and so some of those groups would go out for an evening, either go out drinking or go out to each other's homes or something like this.Umm.I certainly had some close friends within the with within the class as well that I that I got closer to than I did. Reyana Gumboc 9:57Umm. John Maxted 9:57Last, but I can't recall that we actually had any particular venue that we frequented in order to party. Reyana Gumboc 10:08Alright, that's fine.And the next question is about the Vietnam War.Just what the student body thought about it.So the question is, what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? John Maxted 10:25Well, I have to tell you quite honestly that it was not.A big thing on our on our radar. Reyana Gumboc 10:32Mm-hmm. John Maxted 10:33Umm.In fact, I'm surprised by your question.Uh, it's almost a political question and I would say that at the time we didn't support the Vietnam War.We were concerned about the I'm just like today about the number of people that were being killed through the process and would have much preferred, a more peaceful resolution to that situation.But I also can't say that it was anything that was very high on our radar screen. Reyana Gumboc 11:11Well, probably today, wars are more like on the radar because of social media.So that's most likely a reason, but I'm I'm not gonna say definitively umm.And next question really different, but rock'n'roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest.Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? John Maxted 11:46Umm.That's a hard question to answer.I can't say that there was an awful lot of rock'n'roll going on within my parents family.Umm, but I think my I don't. Reyana Gumboc 12:01Umm. John Maxted 12:04I don't.I don't think there was any much of a question that there was a rebellious nature to rock'n'roll.It was something that was there and they just sort of accepted that.That's the way it was.And there was a new form of music, and I don't recall rebelliousness as being something that was.Promoted or abhorred or or?Recognized intensely in the rock'n'roll group.Again, a bit of a surprising question. Reyana Gumboc 12:39 Yeah, I was reading through a this script and a lot of them are kind of touchy and weird, but this next one is about recreational drugs.So to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus? John Maxted 13:00Well, I didn't go underground on campus.And so whether there was an underground phenomenon going on within the university, I'm not absolutely certain. Reyana Gumboc 13:04Umm. John Maxted 13:12Umm, I would say that you know it's not a drug, but the greatest prominence back in the 1970s was alcohol itself. Reyana Gumboc 13:12Umm. John Maxted 13:20And as students, we were just becoming drinkers of alcohol and that was kind of the latest craze.And so every time we wanted to enjoy ourselves, it was alcohol that would come into the party.Umm, I don't even recall anything about cannabis at that point in time.I don't think cannabis came on strong until later and I can't remember my friends ever getting into that kind of thing, nor can I remember.Certainly getting into opioids or any of those other kinds of medications which are available now on the underground market. Reyana Gumboc 14:03Umm, umm, alright.Thank you.The next theme is about the female experience.Obviously you're a man, so you might not be able to answer these questions to your full ability, but umm.There's a statement here.Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers.Does this argument resonate with your experience on campus at the time? John Maxted 14:43The question is a bit like.Some of your earlier questions and that it makes certain assumption based on today's culture, today's gender disparity to today's inequalities.Today's diversity that has challenges in itself.And so it's a little hard to answer your question because.A lot of these issues that you're referring to became issues later on.In fact, many, many years later, and it's only within the last five to 10 years, that's that some of the issues you're talking about became issues that were obvious to the general populace.And so back in 1970s, I would not say that gender issues were concerned.I did not perceive at that time that if this is an answer to your question that women were sort of trying to fight their way into society, but it was there nevertheless. Reyana Gumboc 15:42OK. John Maxted 15:44I mean, there was no denying that, you know, for example, going years back that there had been a fight for women to be able to vote even, and it was that kind of thing.That was continuing to work its way into society.Was there questions about the degree to which women were involved?While absolutely, I mean there was still issues then about, you know, how many if if females is the right word, I should be using how many females were in the class versus males.How many females were going into medicine versus males?There was still that stuff going on very much so I wouldn't say that it was given as much attention at that time as it is now, but nevertheless, I can't think of it time in my life when there hasn't been a comparison between the genders in terms of their promotion or their ability to make inroads into different aspects of life in society. Reyana Gumboc 16:47Will you answer some of the questions that I have here about women in clubs and departments?So you'd say women were less represented in or like less present in science STEM programs. John Maxted 17:04Yes, I was choosing a profession in choosing medicine through science that was.Predominated by males?Umm, thankfully it's made a change. Reyana Gumboc 17:14Mm-hmm. John Maxted 17:17In fact, it seems to be the other way around right now, but nevertheless, at that time, umm, women were definitely trying to.I wouldn't.I don't know whether they were trying to, but they were increasing their involvement in science and medicine. Reyana Gumboc 17:37Awesome.Uh, sorry, I'm just reading the questions.Umm this one is about the treatment of women in classrooms where they necessarily different ways, different treatment or expectations in classroom or at social events for women compared to male students. John Maxted 18:01Again, a reflection of some of my early answers, but also a reflection of some of the things I was thinking earlier that I had forgotten about to mention. Umm.Your question.You know, it's almost taken in light of what's happened since then, and I think that the way we treated women then and the way we included women in, umm, events and and organizations and meetings and all that sort of stuff, the assumptions we made about a woman's role in what we were doing were ones that would probably be found at fault at this point in time, in our culture, we didn't think of them as that at that point in time because they were not identified as such.And so for us, it was not a problem.We didn't think we were hurting women or that we were.There was no intention behind it.Put it that way, it's hard for me to find some of these words and not to cotton, not to misrepresent the situation. Reyana Gumboc 19:03Yeah. John Maxted 19:09But there was no intention behind our thinking or our language or the way we behaved.But I suspect if you were to look at it in present day terms, which is what your question where your questions seem to be coming from, then probably there would be things to find at fault with the way we behaved, the way we treated women, the way we included in them in in what we were doing.But I can't think of, quite frankly.And honestly, I can't think of any examples at this point in time where I think, yeah, that was a situation where we were very mean to the female sex or, you know, we should have treated them better or something like that.Some of those things, as with a lot of cultural issues in the 19 and the 2000s.Had to be pointed out to us over the years for us to recognize, and then I would have to go back and reflect on well, did we do something that was not quite the way it should have been?And quite frankly, I've not been challenged with that question up until now.Yeah. Reyana Gumboc 20:11Well, that's that's good for me.I wrote that down. Umm.The next main question is about ideology and generational differences.Umm, historians have written a lot about what they call counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents.To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just or better world? John Maxted 20:47I I was.I was actually not a participant in in any mobilization.Uh, initiative that I can recall.Umm, that's at a group level at a personal level.Umm, I recognize that was part of what I would have called at that point in time in the 70s, the newest generation, just like the the generations have they evolved since then.You know we, we we call them all sorts of things.Generations zed and X and everything else that we we keep calling them.And so, yes.I'm I and my associates friends.We certainly had our own way of thinking things.We had our own beliefs, which some, many of which some of which were different than our parents, some of which were different than those who are older than us.I'm and I can't say that there was a huge reaction.We just sort of went their own ways and our parents just like the parents of today, accepted that the younger generation thought differently and and they accepted that and tried to integrate that with family life, with social life and with the general life life in general. Reyana Gumboc 22:08Yeah.Well, generally children will like try to be different from their parents, move away from that.Umm, but to what extent did the generation of your time believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were updated? John Maxted 22:35I think I think that, I mean again it was not.An obvious discussion with my associates or friends that they were outdated and we were gonna act differently.We just did. Reyana Gumboc 22:49Yeah. John Maxted 22:49Umm.And and we didn't go home and say, oh, by the way, mom and dad, I just acted differently.Or I just did something that you wouldn't agree with or disagree with, or something like this. Reyana Gumboc 22:59Yeah. John Maxted 23:00I mean, it was and we didn't try to create a big movement around it and and try to react but as with.Many evolutions in society, as it became more obvious that we were behaving that way and doing that way, and and doing it that way.Umm, the discussion became broader and perhaps we got to the point where we were more comfortable in having the discussion with our parents.But we didn't tell our parents or our older folks everything that we were doing.We just did it because that's what we wanted to do or that's what we thought was OK to do. Reyana Gumboc 23:38Yeah.Umm.So looking back at the 1970s, what aspect as of Canadian society did you see, as in need of fixing? John Maxted 23:59Ah, that's a hard question to answer too. Umm. Reyana Gumboc 24:03Sorry, just hitting you question after question. John Maxted 24:09I mean, politics has always been something that I've paid a lot of attention to and and being in Ottawa, uh, I've always said, in fact, I'm writing my memoirs right now and one of my paragraphs is on how when we were in Ottawa, we always had a national perspective. Reyana Gumboc 24:16Yeah. John Maxted 24:26We never had a provincial or territorial perspective living in Ottawa and so as a national perspective, it was always, you know, what we like or don't like about Canada and and at that time, I think that generally speaking, the feeling amongst most of my associates and myself was that we were very thankful we were in Canada.We were very thankful for the culture, the society, the liberties, the way of life, the security, everything we had at that time. Reyana Gumboc 24:50Umm. John Maxted 25:03We were thankful for those things.We.Yes, we took them for granted to some extent, the way people do nowadays, but we probably didn't fight about them as much then as they do nowadays.And yet politics will still very important the party in power was still very important to us.You know whether it was Diefenbaker and Pearson in those days, or whether it was Trudeau, Pierre Trudeau, that came a little bit later.Those were things that we often discussed and we had our likes and dislikes about the policies that they adhere to.I can't remember anything specific at this point in time.Politically with regards to that and those days, but nevertheless, there were certainly things that were going on. Reyana Gumboc 25:51That's fine.Umm.Were there any principle forms of injustice in Canadian society?During the 1970s.Umm, I think that means like maybe hate crimes or.I'm not too sure what forms of injustice is referring to. John Maxted 26:21Well, if I was to turn that question a little bit on its heels, I might introduce the idea of equity, diversity and inclusion, which is a very important subject in 2023 and since a lot of your questions seemed to come from the culture that we're exempt, that we're experiencing right now in 2023, I would say that there were, yeah, there were lots of issues of equity. Uh. Reyana Gumboc 26:26Umm.You yeah. John Maxted 26:51Inequity.Umm, the lack of diversion and the lack of inclusion in the 1970s did we talk about it as much?Absolutely not.It was, you know, all the things you don't like about those things nowadays existed in the 1970s.So you know the names we used to refer to certain cultures and certain races and so on. Reyana Gumboc 27:13Umm. John Maxted 27:20Uh, we're not questioned then the way they are now, or disallowed the way they are now.Umm, the cultural issues and cultural disparities were not as obvious at that time.Umm, some of that was good in that, just like I've discussed with you, the inclusion of French and English language in the class and the the difference between that and the difference between genders was not as big an issue as it is now. Reyana Gumboc 27:41Yeah. John Maxted 27:46Some of that was probably good for the issues that we now identify around equity diversion and inclusion, but at the same time, it was also to our ignorance that we carried on that way because indigenous issues, for example, we're ongoing and we were to a large extent ignoring them.Umm, I wouldn't say entirely ignoring them because indigenous issues of fairness to the indigenous peoples has been an issue for government for a long time, but it was not as addressed as well, probably back in the 70s as it is as as as as they are trying to address it at this point in time.So those things absolutely existed.We didn't have to be as concerned about our language then, but that language, that same language around equity, diversity and inclusion probably contributed to some of the issues.The problems the ohh challenges that we have in 2023. Reyana Gumboc 28:51Mm-hmm.So did you feel that the system was democratic and responsive to the needs of the citizens?The question says, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? John Maxted 29:13As a white Caucasian that had been born and raised in Canada, I did. Reyana Gumboc 29:17No. Yeah. John Maxted 29:19But if you were asking that of me and I was an indigenous people's person, umm, or I was somebody coming from East Asia who had maybe just arrived in the country, I would probably answer differently to that question. Reyana Gumboc 29:40OK, so the next main question is about birth control.So cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s.Would you agree with that? John Maxted 30:05Absolutely. Reyana Gumboc 30:10OK.And what did dating look like at the time? John Maxted 30:15But the dating look like. Reyana Gumboc 30:17Dating, yeah. John Maxted 30:21I'm not sure what that question means.I would say it looked much the way it does nowadays.I mean, two people get together and decide that they like one another.Enough that they want to become a little more personal, or a little.Or develop a relationship and the way it went?Umm, I would say you know you.You you did mention abortion and birth control and something else.I can't remember what it was now, but anyways I would say that those things were just becoming available and I'm more popular and those days and and as well in those days, abortion and birth control and what was the third thing you mentioned there? Reyana Gumboc 31:03Uh dissemination of the free love ideology. John Maxted 31:06OK.Love.Yeah, I would say that those things were just sort of coming into the fore, umm and so as a result there was a lot of antagonism towards behaviors that might have reflected the availability of birth, free or not free birth.But but but birth control, the variability of gender breakdowns and stuff like that. Reyana Gumboc 31:28Mm-hmm. John Maxted 31:35There was a lot of controversy around that.Not nearly as much as there is nowadays, but, but it was early years for some of that sexual freedom that I think you're referring to.And so those early years for sexual freedom obviously would have influenced the relationships as well that you were asking me about. Reyana Gumboc 31:57Yeah.Umm, the next question is how did your generation look at family and marriage like?Was it more of a nuclear family expectation or was less traditional familial like relationships where they more accepted? John Maxted 32:24I think the feelings about family and marriage in 1970s were were very traditional.I think it was still man and woman.Umm.And I think the nuclear family was still very important.I would you know, I would answering that question 2023.I would say it's still very important but but, but nevertheless the makeup of a family, the relationships that form within the family, Umm, we're very traditional at that time and have certainly changed in the meantime. Reyana Gumboc 32:57I would agree.I would.I would say that it's still very traditional, but I would say it's kind of changed.Umm, the next section is optional.We don't have to do it, but it's about sexuality and harassment.Would you like to?Go go ahead with the questions. John Maxted 33:18I mean I can try to answer them.I I'm not exactly sure what the questions would entail. Reyana Gumboc 33:25I'll just read the disclaimer.The following section is optional concerns to sexuality harassment.We appreciate that not everyone will be comfortable with these questions.We want to reiterate that your participation as well unitary, you may choose not to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable.So basically it's.Uh policing of sexual harassment.UM, I'm just skimming the questions and premarital sex.Would you like to carry on? John Maxted 34:06I just.I'm not sure that I'm going to have my very much to contribute to that.That's all. Reyana Gumboc 34:11Alright, that's fine.We don't have to do it and but other than that, that's all of the questions that I have for you.It's been very. John Maxted 34:19That's it. Reyana Gumboc 34:20Yeah, that's it.It's been 30 minutes. John Maxted 34:22So it's really, really not about universe.It's really not about university life.It's more about the social and cultural norms at that time. Reyana Gumboc 34:28Yeah, yeah. John Maxted 34:29OK, I thought I thought you were interested in, you know, talking about the University of Ottawa and what we enjoyed about going to school and stuff like that, but. Reyana Gumboc 34:39Like the academics of it, yeah, no, it's it's more of a. John Maxted 34:40Yeah. Reyana Gumboc 34:46It's more of a pop culture type of society based interview, but I think that the information that you've given me has been useful and I'll definitely like I'll be putting this into a database.So thank you for participating. John Maxted 35:05OK. Reyana Gumboc 35:06Yeah, it's been nice meeting you.You seem like a very smart and interesting guy, so I hope that this was fun for you for a little bit. John Maxted 35:21Yeah.Well, it's a little different than what I thought.And as I've already expressed to you, so I you know, I I really enjoyed my time at University of Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 35:24Yeah. John Maxted 35:31If I'm allowed to say that and and and so that's why I decided I wouldn't mind being part of this because it does bring back memories, even answering some of your questions brought back some memories. Reyana Gumboc 35:41Yeah. John Maxted 35:44When I started talking about the escalating society and so on with the faculty and medicine, but the questions I think are probably well beyond the university to some extent.And the more societal and and some of them personal questions as well, but don't necessarily relate to my being a student at University of Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 36:07Yeah, he seemed kind of shocked by a lot of the questions, actually.But I think that's a. John Maxted 36:14Anyhow, thanks very much for yours for your help as well and all the best in your education because you still have a few years to go. Reyana Gumboc 36:17Yeah.Thank you so much.Thank you. John Maxted 36:23But he's not with you. Reyana Gumboc 36:23Yeah, quite a. John Maxted 36:25Well, in your way. Reyana Gumboc stopped transcription Transcription Translation Reyana Gumboc a commencé la transcription Reyana Gumboc 0:03Croyons que c'est l'enregistrement.OK.Donc le premier thème principal est l'impact de la culture populaire et j'ai une déclaration ici.Un historien de la culture a soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée, et Ottawa était une institution plus bilingue.Donc nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient en relation. Nous voulons donc mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés.Et maintenant, voici une question.Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société à l'époque.Comment votre temps de loisirs est-il structuré ? Que faites-vous pour vous amuser dans les années 1970 ? John Maxted 0:53J'ai raté une partie de cette question.comment était structuré ce qui était structuré ? Reyana Gumboc 0:56Votre temps libre est structuré. John Maxted 0:57Plus tard. Reyana Gumboc 0:59Oui. John Maxted 1:01Et bien, je suppose que je dois commencer ma réponse à cette question en disant que je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps libre.Je veux dire que j'avais quelques objectifs et à ce moment-là, et c'étaient les objectifs de toute une vie, c'était de m'établir comme médecin à ce moment-là.Même si je suis devenu médecin de famille, je ne savais pas que c'était ce que je deviendrais. Reyana Gumboc 1:25Mm-hmm. John Maxted 1:26Ce qui m'intéressait le plus, c'était d'obtenir mon diplôme de médecine et de choisir ensuite, ou avant, le type de spécialité que j'aimerais suivre. J'avais donc passé les quelques années précédentes à me préparer à entrer à l'université, ce qui a commencé en 1968 et s'est terminé en 1974 à l'Université d'Ottawa. J'avais commencé par essayer de gagner suffisamment d'argent pour pouvoir aller à l'université et payer les frais qui y étaient associés, surtout en médecine, où les frais étaient généralement un peu plus élevés. Donc, même pendant que je me préparais à aller à l'université, et même quand j'ai commencé l'université en 1968, j'avais quelques emplois à temps partiel. Et puis quand j'ai commencé l'université, bien sûr, j'ai commencé dans ce qu'on appelait le programme de médecine pré-médicale à l'Université d'Ottawa et nous étions le dernier contingent d'étudiants autorisés à commencer ce programme.Les avantages de ce programme étaient énormes.Si je pouvais maintenir ma moyenne à un certain niveau pendant les deux années suivantes, j'étais assuré d'avoir une place dans le programme de médecine. Quand j'ai commencé en 1970, et c'est exactement ce qui s'est passé, j'ai pu maintenir ma moyenne et profiter de ces deux premières années, qui étaient un peu comme un programme scientifique.Et puis j'ai continué en médecine.Donc je consacrais beaucoup de temps à ces objectifs et franchement, je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps pour les activités de loisirs qui étaient nos meilleures activités sociales dans ma vie, certaines autour de mon église, d'autres autour de mes amis. Reyana Gumboc 3:04Oui. John Maxted 3:18Mais franchement, j'étais motivé par le fait d'essayer de faire des études et de devenir ce que je voulais devenir. Reyana Gumboc 3:25Bien sûr. La question suivante porte sur les lieux de sortie. Vous n'avez pas l'habitude de sortir. Quels sont, selon vous, les lieux de sortie les plus populaires sur le campus et à l'extérieur ? John Maxted 3:39 Eh bien, avec le temps, je ne me souviens plus des deux premières années que je vous ai mentionnées comme étant les années de prépa médecine, mais nous étions toujours impliqués dans la Faculté de médecine parce qu'elle était gérée par la faculté de médecine et, avec le temps, nous nous sommes de plus en plus impliqués dans ce qu'on appelait la ice Glapion Society, qui était un club ou une association. Elle était physiquement située dans le sous-sol de la faculté de médecine, rue Nicholas, au centre-ville d'Ottawa, et nous nous y réunissions souvent. Reyana Gumboc 4:12Eh bien. John Maxted 4:18On se retrouvait là entre les cours et on avait, vous savez, des discussions et des questions personnelles, professionnelles et plus formelles sur l'éducation. Mais c'était un peu un endroit où on pouvait se lâcher. Je ne me souviens pas qu'on ait jamais servi d'alcool dans cet endroit, sauf peut-être à l'occasion d'une fête où on buvait de la bière ou quelque chose comme ça, mais je ne m'en souviens même pas. Reyana Gumboc 4:39Oui. John Maxted 4:45Mais c'était vraiment un centre de collecte où, en médecine, nous pouvions nous rassembler et partager nos pensées et nos sentiments et nous laisser aller un peu. Et je dirais que c'était surtout là que nous avions beaucoup d'interactions sociales. Certains de mes amis se réunissaient à l'Albion, qui était un bar à bière tout proche, un peu plus loin dans la rue. Je n'y allais généralement pas moi-même, mais je savais que certains de mes amis s'y rendaient parfois. Reyana Gumboc 5:16OK, je crois que j'ai entendu parler de l'Albion, mais je n'y suis jamais allée. Je ne sais pas s'il existe encore. Les questions suivantes portent sur les événements musicaux. Étant donné que vous êtes très cultivés, vous n'avez probablement pas assisté à beaucoup d'événements musicaux, n'est-ce pas ? John Maxted 5:35Non, pas du tout.En fait, vous savez, l'une des choses que nous avions, c'était une attraction à l'université à l'époque où les gigis umm, c'était, c'était l'équipe de football et ils étaient fans de football. Reyana Gumboc 5:37 D'accord, oh oui. John Maxted 5:48J'aimais bien assister à quelques matchs de football des Gigis et c'était aussi un exutoire pour me soulager de temps en temps. Reyana Gumboc 5:57Mm-hmm.La question suivante porte sur le bilinguisme.Euh, y avait-il des cours bilingues intégrés à l'époque ou des clubs ? John Maxted 6:15 Non, il n'y en avait pas. Je ne sais pas exactement comment vous définissez le bilinguisme, mais je n'ai pas suivi de cours de français à l'époque. L'université essayait évidemment de devenir plus bilingue et d'intégrer le français dans la langue de l'université. Je pense qu'elle a mieux réussi ces dernières années qu'à l'époque, mais ce n'était certainement pas le cas. Il n'y avait pas d'animosité. Il n'y avait pas de mauvais sentiments à ce sujet. En fait, en tant qu'étudiant de l'Université d'Ottawa, j'ai apprécié cette opportunité car mes compétences en français et en langues étaient l'un de mes domaines d'excellence lorsque j'étais au lycée et j'avais reçu des prix pour cela.J'étais donc très heureux d'être dans une université où je pourrais être forcé dans une certaine mesure à parler français, mais franchement je n'ai pas été forcé beaucoup et lorsque j'ai été forcé ou lorsque j'ai dû comprendre le français, la langue française, j'ai apprécié cette opportunité.mais malheureusement cela n'a pas été au point que je devienne bilingue ou que je sois capable de parler couramment le français. Reyana Gumboc 7:30OK.Umm.Par bilingue, je veux dire, umm, francophones et anglophones, s'inscrivant aux mêmes cours et rejoignant les mêmes clubs.Mais saviez-vous si des anglophones et des francophones sortaient ensemble à l'époque ? John Maxted 7:50Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu de barrière ou de question sur le fait que ce n'était pas correct ou pas correct. Reyana Gumboc 7:54OK. John Maxted 7:57Umm, vous savez, nous avions des étudiants francophones dans ma classe et nous sommes devenus de bons amis. Je ne sais pas exactement où vous voulez en venir avec cette question, mais il n'y a jamais eu de différence entre les francophones et les anglophones. Reyana Gumboc 8:14Oui. John Maxted 8:20 Nous nous sommes accueillis mutuellement et nous étions de grands amis les uns pour les autres. Reyana Gumboc 8:24 C'est bien. Je pense que c'est à peu près la même chose maintenant, ce ne sont pas mes questions, elles me sont données pour que tout le monde puisse les lire. John Maxted 8:30Ils suggèrent presque qu'il y a eu un problème, mais il n'y en a pas eu du tout. Reyana Gumboc 8:33Oui. John Maxted 8:35En fait, je pense que l'absence de problème se traduit par l'absence de considération dans une certaine mesure, et il n'y a pas eu de réflexion sur la question de savoir si nous devions promouvoir une langue plutôt qu'une autre ou une culture plutôt qu'une autre. Reyana Gumboc 8:35Oh, c'est bien.Ouais.OK.Et maintenant, la question suivante porte sur la culture de la fête.Vous avez dit que vous n'étiez pas.Vous n'avez pas vraiment fait ce genre de choses.Mais connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui l'a fait ou comment décrirait-il la priorité John campus ? John Maxted 9:08Je pense que la culture de la fête, c'est surtout, je veux dire, je vous ai déjà parlé de l'escalade de la société et nous avons eu quelques fêtes de temps en temps. Reyana Gumboc 9:16Umm. John Maxted 9:16Umm, je vous ai aussi parlé de l'Albion Club où il y avait peut-être des fêtes de temps en temps. Umm, on y allait probablement de temps en temps et puis certains étudiants vivaient à Ottawa, comme moi. Je suis, mais occasionnellement, je pense que, comme dans la plupart des classes, il y avait des groupes qui se formaient au sein de la classe et donc certains de ces groupes sortaient pour une soirée, soit pour aller boire, soit pour aller chez l'autre ou quelque chose comme ça.Umm.J'ai certainement eu quelques amis proches au sein de la avec au sein de la classe aussi que je me suis rapproché de plus que moi. Reyana Gumboc 9:57Umm. John Maxted 9:57Dernier, mais je ne me souviens pas que nous ayons eu un lieu particulier que nous ayons fréquenté pour faire la fête. Reyana Gumboc 10:08D'accord, c'est très bien.La question suivante porte sur la guerre du Vietnam, sur ce qu'en pensait le corps étudiant. John Maxted 10:25 Eh bien, je dois vous dire très honnêtement que ce n'était pas un sujet très important pour nous. Reyana Gumboc 10:32Mm-hmm. John Maxted 10:33Umm.En fait, je suis surpris par votre question.Euh, c'est presque une question politique et je dirais qu'à l'époque, nous ne soutenions pas la guerre du Vietnam.Nous étions préoccupés par le je suis comme aujourd'hui par le nombre de personnes qui étaient tuées au cours du processus et nous aurions préféré une résolution plus pacifique de cette situation.Mais je ne peux pas non plus dire que c'était quelque chose qui était très important sur notre écran radar. Reyana Gumboc 11:11Et bien, probablement qu'aujourd'hui, les guerres sont plus comme sur le radar à cause des médias sociaux.Donc c'est très probablement une raison, mais je ne vais pas dire définitivement umm.Et la question suivante est vraiment différente, mais les artistes de rock'n'roll dans les années 1960 ont promu diverses formes de protestation.Est-ce que vos parents ont vu le rock'n'roll comme rebelle ou juste une forme de musique populaire ? John Maxted 11:46Umm.C'est une question à laquelle il est difficile de répondre.Je ne peux pas dire qu'il y avait beaucoup de rock'n'roll dans la famille de mes parents.Umm, mais je pense que ce n'est pas le cas. Reyana Gumboc 12:01Umm. John Maxted 12:04Je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu de doute sur la nature rebelle du rock'n'roll. C'était quelque chose qui existait et ils l'ont accepté. C'était comme ça. Il y avait une nouvelle forme de musique et je ne me souviens pas que la rébellion ait été promue, abhorrée ou reconnue intensément dans le groupe de rock'n'roll. Encore une fois, c'est une question un peu surprenante. Reyana Gumboc 12:39 Oui, je lisais ce texte et beaucoup d'entre eux sont un peu délicats et bizarres, mais le prochain concerne les drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur le campus ? John Maxted 13:00Je n'ai pas été clandestin sur le campus et je ne suis pas absolument certain qu'il y ait eu un phénomène clandestin au sein de l'université. Reyana Gumboc 13:04Umm. John Maxted 13:12Umm, je dirais que ce n'est pas une drogue, mais dans les années 70, c'est l'alcool qui était le plus en vue. Reyana Gumboc 13:12Umm. John Maxted 13:20En tant qu'étudiants, nous commencions à boire de l'alcool et c'était la dernière mode. Chaque fois que nous voulions nous amuser, c'était l'alcool qui entrait dans la fête. Je ne me souviens même pas d'avoir entendu parler de cannabis à cette époque. Je pense que le cannabis n'est apparu que plus tard et je ne me souviens pas que mes amis se soient mis à ce genre de choses, pas plus que je ne me souviens d'avoir pris des opioïdes ou d'autres types de médicaments disponibles aujourd'hui sur le marché clandestin. Reyana Gumboc 14:03Umm, umm, d'accord.Merci.Le thème suivant concerne l'expérience féminine.Évidemment, vous êtes un homme, donc vous ne pourrez peut-être pas répondre à ces questions avec toute votre compétence, mais umm.Il y a une déclaration ici.Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague.Dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes.Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus à l'époque ? John Maxted 14:43La question ressemble un peu à certaines de vos questions précédentes et elle fait certaines suppositions basées sur la culture d'aujourd'hui, la disparité entre les sexes d'aujourd'hui et les inégalités d'aujourd'hui.La diversité d'aujourd'hui présente des défis en soi.Il est donc un peu difficile de répondre à votre question parce que beaucoup de ces questions auxquelles vous faites référence sont devenues des questions plus tard. En fait, bien des années plus tard, et ce n'est qu'au cours des cinq à dix dernières années, que certains des problèmes dont vous parlez sont devenus des questions évidentes pour la population en général.Ainsi, dans les années 1970, je ne dirais pas que les questions de genre étaient concernées.Je n'ai pas perçu à l'époque, si c'est une réponse à votre question, que les femmes essayaient en quelque sorte de se frayer un chemin dans la société, mais c'était là néanmoins. Reyana Gumboc 15:42OK. John Maxted 15:44 On ne peut pas nier que, par exemple, il y a quelques années, on s'est battu pour que les femmes puissent voter, et c'est ce genre de choses. Est-ce qu'il y avait des questions sur le degré d'implication des femmes ? Absolument, je veux dire qu'il y avait encore des questions à l'époque sur, vous savez, le nombre de femmes dans la classe par rapport aux hommes, si le mot " femmes " est le bon. Je ne dirais donc pas que l'on y accordait autant d'attention à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui, mais je ne me souviens pas d'une époque de ma vie où il n'y a pas eu de comparaison entre les sexes en termes de promotion ou de capacité à pénétrer les différents aspects de la vie en société. Reyana Gumboc 16:47Pouvez-vous répondre aux questions que je me pose sur les femmes dans les clubs et les départements ? Vous diriez donc que les femmes sont moins représentées ou moins présentes dans les programmes scientifiques STEM. John Maxted 17:04Oui, je choisissais une profession en choisissant la médecine par le biais de la science qui était dominée par les hommes... Heureusement, les choses ont changé. Reyana Gumboc 17:14Mm-hmm. John Maxted 17:17En fait, il semble que ce soit l'inverse aujourd'hui, mais néanmoins, à l'époque, humm, les femmes essayaient vraiment de... Je ne dirais pas... Je ne sais pas si elles essayaient, mais elles s'impliquaient de plus en plus dans les sciences et la médecine. Reyana Gumboc 17:37 Génial. Euh, désolé, je suis en train de lire les questions. Euh, celle-ci porte sur le traitement des femmes dans les salles de classe, où il y a nécessairement des différences, un traitement différent ou des attentes différentes dans la salle de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux pour les femmes par rapport aux étudiants masculins. John Maxted 18:01 Encore une fois, c'est le reflet de certaines de mes premières réponses, mais aussi le reflet de certaines choses auxquelles je pensais plus tôt et que j'avais oublié de mentionner. Je pense que la façon dont nous traitions les femmes à l'époque et la façon dont nous les incluions dans les événements, les organisations, les réunions et tout le reste, les hypothèses que nous faisions sur le rôle d'une femme dans ce que nous faisions étaient des hypothèses qui seraient probablement considérées comme fautives aujourd'hui, dans notre culture, mais nous ne les considérions pas comme telles à ce moment-là parce qu'elles n'étaient pas identifiées en tant que telles. Et donc pour nous, ce n'était pas un problème.Nous ne pensions pas que nous faisions du mal aux femmes ou que nous en faisions.Il n'y avait pas d'intention derrière cela.Dit comme ça, c'est difficile pour moi de trouver certains de ces mots et de ne pas coter, de ne pas déformer la situation. Reyana Gumboc 19:03Oui. John Maxted 19:09Mais il n'y avait pas d'intention derrière notre pensée, notre langage ou notre façon de nous comporter. Mais je pense que si vous deviez regarder les choses en termes actuels, ce qui est l'objet de votre question, il y aurait probablement des choses à reprocher à notre comportement, à notre façon de traiter les femmes, à la façon dont nous les incluions dans ce que nous faisions. Honnêtement, je n'ai pas d'exemples à l'heure actuelle où je me dis que nous avons été très méchants avec les femmes ou que nous aurions dû mieux les traiter, ou quelque chose comme ça. Il a fallu qu'on nous le fasse remarquer au fil des ans pour que nous le reconnaissions, et il a fallu que je revienne en arrière et que je me demande si nous avions fait quelque chose qui n'était pas tout à fait ce qu'il aurait fallu faire... Et très franchement, je n'ai pas été confrontée à cette question jusqu'à présent. Reyana Gumboc 20:11Et bien, c'est une bonne chose pour moi, je l'ai noté. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour un monde plus juste ou meilleur ? John Maxted 20:47Je l'ai été.Je n'ai en fait participé à aucune mobilisation.Euh, initiative dont je me souvienne.Umm, c'est au niveau du groupe, au niveau personnel.Umm, je reconnais que cela faisait partie de ce que j'aurais appelé à ce moment-là, dans les années 70, la toute nouvelle génération, tout comme les générations ont évolué depuis lors. Vous savez, nous, nous les appelons toutes sortes de choses. Les générations ZED et X et tout ce que nous continuons à appeler. Et donc, oui, je suis moi et mes amis associés. Nous avions certainement notre propre façon de penser, nos propres croyances, dont certaines, beaucoup, étaient différentes de celles de nos parents, de ceux qui étaient plus âgés que nous. Nous avons suivi notre propre voie et nos parents, tout comme les parents d'aujourd'hui, ont accepté que la jeune génération pense différemment et ils ont essayé de l'intégrer à la vie familiale, à la vie sociale et à la vie en général. Reyana Gumboc 22:08Oui. En général, les enfants essaient d'être différents de leurs parents, de s'en éloigner. Mais dans quelle mesure la génération de votre époque pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses avaient été mises à jour ? John Maxted 22:35Je pense que je pense que, encore une fois, ce n'était pas une discussion évidente avec mes associés ou mes amis sur le fait qu'elles étaient dépassées et que nous allions agir différemment. Reyana Gumboc 22:49Oui. John Maxted 22:49Umm. Et nous ne sommes pas rentrés à la maison en disant, oh, au fait, maman et papa, j'ai juste agi différemment. Ou j'ai juste fait quelque chose avec lequel vous ne seriez pas d'accord ou pas d'accord, ou quelque chose comme ça. Reyana Gumboc 22:59Oui. John Maxted 23:00Nous n'avons pas essayé de créer un grand mouvement autour de cela et de réagir, mais comme pour beaucoup d'évolutions dans la société, il est devenu de plus en plus évident que nous nous comportions et agissions de cette manière, et que nous le faisions de cette manière. Mais nous ne disions pas à nos parents ou à nos aînés tout ce que nous faisions. Nous le faisions simplement parce que c'était ce que nous voulions faire ou ce que nous pensions qu'il était bon de faire. Reyana Gumboc 23:38Ouais.Umm.Donc, en regardant les années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérez-vous comme ayant besoin d'être corrigé ? John Maxted 23:59Ah, c'est une question à laquelle il est difficile de répondre. Umm. Reyana Gumboc 24:03Désolée, je vous pose question sur question. John Maxted 24:09Je veux dire que la politique a toujours été quelque chose à laquelle j'ai prêté beaucoup d'attention et en étant à Ottawa, euh, j'ai toujours dit, en fait, je suis en train d'écrire mes mémoires en ce moment et l'un de mes paragraphes porte sur le fait que lorsque nous étions à Ottawa, nous avions toujours une perspective nationale. Reyana Gumboc 24:16Oui. John Maxted 24:26Nous n'avons jamais eu de perspective provinciale ou territoriale en vivant à Ottawa et donc, en tant que perspective nationale, c'était toujours, vous savez, ce que nous aimons ou n'aimons pas au sujet du Canada et à l'époque, je pense qu'en général, le sentiment de la plupart de mes associés et de moi-même était que nous étions très reconnaissants d'être au Canada. Nous étions très reconnaissants pour la culture, la société, les libertés, le mode de vie, la sécurité, tout ce que nous avions à l'époque. Reyana Gumboc 24:50Umm. John Maxted 25:03Nous étions reconnaissants de ces choses. Oui, nous les tenions pour acquises dans une certaine mesure, comme les gens le font aujourd'hui, mais nous ne nous battions probablement pas autant à ce sujet qu'aujourd'hui. Et pourtant, la politique était toujours très importante, le parti au pouvoir était toujours très important pour nous. Qu'il s'agisse de Diefenbaker et Pearson à l'époque, ou de Trudeau, Pierre Trudeau, qui est arrivé un peu plus tard.C'était des choses dont nous discutions souvent et nous avions nos préférences et nos aversions sur les politiques auxquelles ils adhéraient.Je ne me souviens pas de quelque chose de spécifique à ce stade.Politiquement, en ce qui concerne cette époque, mais néanmoins, il y avait certainement des choses qui se passaient. Reyana Gumboc 25:51C'est bien.Umm.Y avait-il des formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne pendant les années 70.Umm, je pense que ça veut dire des crimes de haine ou... Je ne sais pas trop à quelles formes d'injustice on fait référence. John Maxted 26:21Et bien, si je devais tourner cette question un peu à l'envers, je pourrais introduire l'idée de l'équité, de la diversité et de l'inclusion, qui est un sujet très important en 2023 et puisque beaucoup de vos questions semblaient provenir de la culture dont nous sommes exempts, que nous vivons en ce moment en 2023, je dirais qu'il y avait, oui, il y avait beaucoup de problèmes d'équité. Je dirais qu'il y avait, oui, beaucoup de questions d'équité. Reyana Gumboc 26:26Umm.vous oui. John Maxted 26:51Inequité.Umm, le manque de diversion et le manque d'inclusion dans les années 70, est-ce qu'on en parlait autant ? Absolument pas.C'était, vous savez, tout ce qu'on n'aime pas dans ces choses qui existaient aujourd'hui dans les années 70.Vous savez, les noms qu'on utilisait pour désigner certaines cultures, certaines races et ainsi de suite. Reyana Gumboc 27:13Umm. John Maxted 27:20Uh, on ne nous a pas posé de questions comme on le fait aujourd'hui, on ne nous a pas interdit de le faire comme on le fait maintenant.Umm, les questions culturelles et les disparités culturelles n'étaient pas aussi évidentes à l'époque.Umm, c'était bien en partie parce que, comme j'en ai parlé avec vous, l'inclusion du français et de l'anglais dans la classe et la différence entre ces deux langues et la différence entre les sexes n'étaient pas un problème aussi important qu'aujourd'hui. Reyana Gumboc 27:41Oui. John Maxted 27:46Certaines de ces mesures étaient probablement bonnes pour les questions que nous identifions aujourd'hui autour de l'équité, de la diversion et de l'inclusion, mais en même temps, c'est aussi à notre insu que nous avons continué dans cette voie parce que les questions indigènes, par exemple, sont permanentes et que nous les ignorions dans une large mesure. Je ne dirais pas que nous les avons entièrement ignorées, parce que la question de l'équité envers les peuples indigènes est une question qui préoccupe le gouvernement depuis longtemps, mais elle n'a pas été aussi bien traitée, probablement dans les années 70, qu'elle ne l'est aujourd'hui. Nous n'avions pas à nous préoccuper autant de notre langue à l'époque, mais cette langue, cette même langue autour de l'équité, de la diversité et de l'inclusion a probablement contribué à certains des problèmes. Les problèmes, les ohh défis que nous avons en 2023. Reyana Gumboc 28:51Mm-hmm.Alors, avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système était démocratique et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? La question dit : avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? John Maxted 29:13En tant que Blanc caucasien né et élevé au Canada, oui. Reyana Gumboc 29:17Non. John Maxted 29:19Mais si vous me posiez cette question et que j'étais un indigène, humm, ou quelqu'un d'Asie de l'Est qui venait peut-être d'arriver dans le pays, je répondrais probablement différemment à cette question. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. John Maxted 30:05 Absolument. Reyana Gumboc 30:10OK. Et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'époque ? John Maxted 30:15Mais à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres ? Reyana Gumboc 30:17Les rendez-vous, oui. John Maxted 30:21Je ne suis pas sûr du sens de cette question. Je dirais que cela ressemblait beaucoup à ce qui se passe aujourd'hui. Je veux dire que deux personnes se rencontrent et décident qu'elles s'apprécient suffisamment pour vouloir devenir un peu plus personnelles, ou développer une relation, et la façon dont cela s'est passé... Umm, je dirais que vous vous connaissez. Vous avez mentionné l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances et quelque chose d'autre. Je ne me souviens plus de ce que c'était maintenant, mais en tout cas je dirais que ces choses devenaient disponibles et je suis plus populaire à cette époque et aussi à cette époque, l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances et quelle était la troisième chose que vous avez mentionnée ? Reyana Gumboc 31:03Uh la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre. John Maxted 31:06OK.l'amour.oui, je dirais que ces choses venaient juste de passer au premier plan, umm et donc en conséquence il y avait beaucoup d'antagonisme envers les comportements qui auraient pu refléter la disponibilité des naissances, libres ou non libres.mais mais mais mais mais le contrôle des naissances, la variabilité des répartitions des sexes et des choses comme ça. Reyana Gumboc 31:28Mm-hmm. John Maxted 31:35Il y a eu beaucoup de controverses à ce sujet, pas autant qu'aujourd'hui, mais c'était les premières années de la liberté sexuelle à laquelle vous faites allusion. Et ces premières années de liberté sexuelle ont évidemment influencé les relations que vous m'avez demandées. Reyana Gumboc 31:57Oui. La question suivante est de savoir comment votre génération considérait la famille et le mariage : s'agissait-il plutôt d'une attente de famille nucléaire ou de relations familiales moins traditionnelles qui étaient mieux acceptées ? John Maxted 32:24Je pense que les sentiments à l'égard de la famille et du mariage dans les années 1970 étaient très traditionnels. Je pense qu'il s'agissait toujours d'un homme et d'une femme. Et je pense que la famille nucléaire était encore très importante. Je répondrais à cette question en 2023. Je dirais qu'elle est encore très importante, mais la composition d'une famille, les relations qui se forment au sein de la famille... Nous étions très traditionnels à l'époque et nous avons certainement changé entre-temps. Reyana Gumboc 32:57Je suis d'accord.Je dirais que c'est encore très traditionnel, mais je dirais que ça a un peu changé.Umm, la section suivante est facultative.Nous ne sommes pas obligés de la faire, mais elle concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement.Voulez-vous ? Allez-y avec les questions. John Maxted 33:18Je veux dire que je peux essayer d'y répondre, mais je ne sais pas exactement en quoi consistent les questions. Reyana Gumboc 33:25Je vais juste lire l'avertissement.La section suivante est facultative concernant le harcèlement sexuel.Nous comprenons que tout le monde ne sera pas à l'aise avec ces questions.Nous voulons réitérer que votre participation est aussi unitaire, vous pouvez choisir de ne pas répondre aux questions qui vous mettent mal à l'aise.Donc en gros c'est.Euh la police du harcèlement sexuel.UM, je ne fais que survoler les questions et les relations sexuelles avant le mariage.Voulez-vous continuer ? John Maxted 34:06 Je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir grand-chose à dire à ce sujet, c'est tout. Reyana Gumboc 34:11 D'accord, c'est très bien. Nous ne sommes pas obligés de le faire, mais à part ça, c'est toutes les questions que j'avais à vous poser. John Maxted 34:19C'est tout. Reyana Gumboc 34:20Oui, c'est tout, ça fait 30 minutes. John Maxted 34:22 Il ne s'agit donc vraiment pas de l'univers, ni de la vie universitaire, mais plutôt des normes sociales et culturelles de l'époque. Reyana Gumboc 34:28Oui, oui. John Maxted 34:29OK, je pensais que vous étiez intéressée à parler de l'Université d'Ottawa et de ce qu'on aimait faire à l'école et tout ça, mais... Reyana Gumboc 34:39Les études, oui, non, c'est plus une... John Maxted 34:40Oui. Reyana Gumboc 34:46C'est plus une interview basée sur la culture pop et la société, mais je pense que les informations que vous m'avez données ont été utiles et je vais certainement les mettre dans une base de données. John Maxted 35:05OK. Reyana Gumboc 35:06Oui, j'ai été ravie de vous rencontrer. Vous avez l'air d'un homme très intelligent et intéressant, alors j'espère que vous avez pu vous amuser un peu. John Maxted 35:21Oui, c'est un peu différent de ce que je pensais, et comme je vous l'ai déjà dit, j'ai vraiment apprécié mon séjour à l'Université d'Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 35:24Oui. John Maxted 35:31Si je peux me permettre de dire cela et et et c'est pourquoi j'ai décidé que cela ne me dérangerait pas de participer à ce projet parce que cela me rappelle des souvenirs, même le fait de répondre à certaines de vos questions m'a rappelé des souvenirs. Reyana Gumboc 35:41Oui. John Maxted 35:44Quand j'ai commencé à parler de l'escalade de la société et ainsi de suite avec la faculté et la médecine, mais je pense que les questions vont probablement bien au-delà de l'université dans une certaine mesure.et les questions plus sociétales et certaines questions personnelles aussi, mais qui ne sont pas nécessairement liées au fait que j'étais étudiante à l'Université d'Ottawa. Reyana Gumboc 36:07Oui, il a semblé un peu choqué par beaucoup de questions, en fait, mais je pense que c'est une... John Maxted 36:14En tout cas, merci beaucoup pour votre aide et bonne chance dans vos études parce qu'il vous reste encore quelques années à faire. Reyana Gumboc 36:17Oui, merci beaucoup, merci. John Maxted 36:23Mais il n'est pas avec vous. Reyana Gumboc 36:23Oui, tout à fait. John Maxted 36:25Et bien, à votre manière. Reyana Gumboc a arrêté la transcription Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maxted, John, (interview) Description An account of the resource Interview on the student experience on the University of Ottawa Campus during the early 1970's, including the "free love" movement and the counterculture revolution. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 36 minutes, 29 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyana Gumboc diversity medical medical school Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1950 Birthplace ParrySound, ON, CA Death Date None Schools Attended University Western, London, 1968-1971 Degree BA Career education Occupation teacher, technical writer. Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life chose not to respond Gender Identity chose not to respond Sexual Orientation chose not to respond Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Yuanming Tian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeannette Logan Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Microsoft team) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Transcription Translation 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan, Jeanette (interview) Subject The topic of the resource Analyze the experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yuanming Tian Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Microsoft Teams Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 42 minutes 1970s Bilingualism Dating Drugs Gender Gender Discrimination Marriage medical school Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Pill Popular Music Royal Commission on the Status of Women Second-Wave Feminism University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boogaart, Thomas Jr Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Boogaart, Thomas Sr Location The location of the interview Holland, Michigan, United States (via Zoom) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) Leave blank Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Tom JR: “OK so uh the date is July 17, 2023. The time is 11 25. This is an oral interview with Tom Boogaart senior. The interviewer is Tom Boogaart Jr and the topic is life on campus.” Tom JR: “Now, Tom you went to Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. What years were you at Calvin College? Tom SR: “ I was uh there from 1968 to 1972.” Tom JR; “OK, so those were the years kind of the tail end and also the high point of the Vietnam War. Now every University was a little bit different in terms of the anti-war movement. Do you have any memories about how that played out on Calvin's campus?” Tom SR: “I have a few memories. (2:00) I think that generally, Calvin's campus was fairly quiet at least in my first year in 1968. There was some student activism. There's two memories that I have are pretty clear from that year from 1968, and one was that I commuted so I lived in town and then drove to campus every morning- and one morning- and I don't know it must have been in the spring,- maybe of 1969, there was a science building that had a about a six story brick face with no windows in it that kind of faced the main Highway, and somebody that night- in huge letters covering six stories- had END the war. Each one three letters E-N-D was in the top two stories, and “the” in the second two stories, and “War” was on the third, and now how they did it and who did it? Obviously I knew nothing about it, but, obviously, there was a group of students who had been active and who were protesting. So then I parked the car, took a class, and then at about 11 o'clock there was a huge canvas hanging over to hide the sign. And then the next day they hired people with these steam cleaners and they were they were steaming it (paint) off the bricks the next day, and it made the whole thing pretty effective; and that got the whole campus a buzz, of course, so why? What was the college worried about that? Why did they have to hide the message? Why did they have to? Now think of the symbolism. You hide the message, you have to try to erase it as if it never happened, and so that that got everybody, in other words; their attempt to kind of suppress the message got the message out even more. Even more so “End the War,” it had a very short shelf life, “end the war” it maybe lasted about two or three hours, so that was one memory and um the other memory I have is the conversation about the war {that} came up in a history class that I was taking. And this must, well, I'm confused whether it was the first or second year; either 68 or 69. And um the professor, Ron Wells, was his name, was very active and very vocal about his opposition to the war, and he was telling the class that that weekend he had gone with a friend to a pub where there were singers and they were singing you know pop songs; rock and roll songs; and when they got done they asked the audience with did you have any requests? And he {Wells} said so I raised my hand and he said to the singer why don't you sing a song of social significance, and, uh, the singer was just befuddled. And then he was telling the story as an example of how life is just kind of going on and nobody's paying attention, but when you ask a question like that; sing a song of social significance, all of a sudden the singer didn't know what to sing or what to say, and it isn't like there weren't some songs; that I mean we had all kinds of songs of social significance- Bob Dylan being- you know- the main one that we all knew, and I don't remember after that what happened but I do remember that. Tom Jr: “That it came up in the classroom.” TOM Sr: “It came up in the class and the other thing that came up in the class that again; like you said; you know this is years ago, and my memory's uncertain a little bit- I mean certain things; I know I remember certain things; I just don't remember in what context exactly but the um we um in one of our classes they talked about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and that it was fake and they were seeking some justification for the war, and so they they created it, and we as students- I remember I didn't disbelieve it- what we were hearing because; you know; it was a history class and we were going over and looking at the stuff, but I remember being somewhat surprised by it, because I had been raised basically to think that Authority was benign, or it was well-meaning generally. I mean there was possibly a pressure, and I didn't figure this out until years later; my dad was in the Coast Guard during the war {World War II}, and so he wasn't on the frontlines, or anything, but he was protecting boats from German subs, which is dangerous enough in itself, of course, and then- um- Eisenhower was the main General of D-Day. It was a really big thing, and Eisenhower was a respected rational; compassionate leader, and then he became President immediately after in those post-war years, and my dad; because of Eisenhower I think, basically trusted government, and basically thought everybody was a version of Eisenhower, and so when trouble started with Nixon in those years, and we were also studying uh the fact that we weren't getting the data- the right data from the government, so we in class were; it wasn't radicalized or anything- but we were being exposed; we were being asked to be critical, I mean, that was the good thing about Calvin College; now at University is that they wanted us to critically engage the world, I mean just don't accept everything you hear, it might be true, but probe it to see what's there, and don't be afraid to- you know- look at evidence that's being suppressed, and things like that. So we were we being engaged to be critical, and, of course, all of a sudden, with the Gulf of Tonkin, with the inflated message {that} we're winning the war basically, all we need is a few more men, a little more equipment, that was escalating; and we knew that wasn’t true, and I was still living at home at the time. It created real trouble at Sunday meals because my dad would hear nothing of it, and then we were suspicious that not only had Johnson lied to us, but that Nixon was lying to us, and my dad just wouldn't hear it. When I look back, I realized that he was very slow, given his experience to trust government, and when I look back, it's largely because of his- Eisenhower, in fact, he had all these buttons he kept from Eisenhower's campaigns. We like Ike, I remember, that little button that even he even gave us those little buttons that we had in our bedroom for a while; “We like Ike,” and so and so, he wouldn't hear it, and he was stubborn, and it created-yeah it created real tension- around the table, and that, and then I wasn't alone in that. Pete- you know Pete is my brother who's a year older he's getting the same education at Calvin that I'm getting, and is not buying into it either, and so, anyway. Tom Jr; “It was the Counter Culture Revolution and a generational struggle between the Boomers and you know their kids. So what you're describing seems to fit that mold a little bit that there was a divide between you and your siblings and your parents. Was this true in other households as well or was this particular to your household?” Tom Sr: “No, no, I think that was generally true, but my parents had a high view of Education. They were not unhappy with our education. In fact, they were really happy. I mean, my dad was a graduate of Calvin, and he taught in a Christian school. So we were really embedded in that system, and it wasn't like he was questioning some of the things that there were. Yeah, they're just so it's there's a conflict there for him, and I kind of wondered how he ever resolved it because he really did believe in education. He wanted us to be, so in one sense he wanted us to be critical, but he was not gonna; he just would not accept-specially when it came to a head over Nixon, and then later Watergate came up, and things like that are you saying then that from your perception he believed that your anti-war views were something that came from leaving the home, and being exposed to this at Calvin, yeah, and I think it's something that he valued. I don't think he wanted- he did not want us to be uneducated, and he understood- I think- that education meant critical reflection, but when it came down to that, it's in the abstract, but when it came down to the concrete, what about Richard Nixon, all of a sudden he would not budge on that. I don't think he ever budged on it. I think even though knowing everything in 72, he voted for Nixon, where and I don't think my mother did, but she never said, she was closed-lipped about that. Tom Jr: “So you went to Calvin in 68. I guess that would be September and uh what you seem to be alluding to is in 1968 before you went to Calvin College. You didn't have a sense that the Vietnam War was incorrect driven by lies and misinformation; that was something of an appreciation that you acquired by going to campus and talking to other people there?” Tom Sr: “Yeah I think so. If- again my memory's a little vague- but High School in this system did not invite us to be critical. High school was we're right about everything -you know-you’re being inculcated in some fundamental Christian values, and I remember when Martin Luther King was assassinated; I was sitting in a another history class in high school, and I think what they did; they were worried I think- they suspended school that day, and then sent us home- if I remember correctly. But there was never any discussion about that, and we didn't talk about the Civil Rights Movement much, but we were aware of it. Then, of course, when he's assassinated, I remember my memory is that I had seen enough of racism that I never doubted that some of these fundamental institutions were racist in our country, and that the African-Americans had reasons- I think- I was sympathetic to it, but we never talked about it. It wasn't analyzed. What we weren't invited to be critical about, I think it was largely ignored, was the Vietnam War- was almost largely ignored in high schools. I remember it, I just don't remember any class where that ever came up. So college for us was a real shocker in a way, and college that Calvin College (University now), had a very different ethos than the ethos of that high school, so there was a pretty radical break for people like me who have been nurtured through that system for all those years Tom Jr, but I believe that many people in the in the Christian schools that you went to in East Grand Rapids actually went to Calvin, so you were still in in a cohort that was very similar to you. Tom Sr: “Oh yeah, I would think that at those years all of the Calvin students streamed from the various Christian high schools around the country. And, of course, Grand Rapids was a main Center, and was the big feeder of students to Calvin. All, virtually half the ones who went on to college, probably half of my {High School} graduating class went to Calvin, so I was in class again in college with people I've been in class with in high school, and, of course, a lot of new people too, coming from- you know- some schools out from the state of Washington. A lot of Iowa students were coming at that time, and a lot of Canadian students were coming. Tom Jr: “So what you're saying is the college experience was really important in terms of shaping your views?” Tom Sr. “Yeah looking on politics; looking back, there was a required course at the time called hristian perspectives on learning, cpol, that we have our first year, and that course was designed to help us understand culture itself, and how cults are formed and shaped. Again it wasn't explicitly ideological. It wasn't anti-war. It wasn't taking a position on the war. It wasn't taking position on the Civil Rights Movement, but it was inviting us to the whole idea of a kind of critical engagement with your world, and that you had to develop a Christian world and lifeview, but you had to do it critically. You couldn't just absorb everything that was happening around you. In fact, they had a class, they had a speaker. They played a Richard De Vos, it was just starting to take off with Amway, and he was a huge donor to Calvin, even in those early years, when I was there. They gave a speech that he had given to the Chamber of Commerce or something, and the speech was America's the greatest country in the world because we have 90 percent of the world's refrigerators, we have 65 percent of the world's washing machines, we have you know blah blah blah, and then we broke up into our small groups. There were like 300 new students there, or more than that. There must have been like 500 students. We'd break up into groups of 15, led by a professor, and they just started critiquing that does that. What makes you great; is that really what you want? I think- and I remember thinking- it's ridiculous! What was this? What's this guy saying? What about Christian values? What about you know, so they were so- we were being (indecipherable), and then they dropped that lecture, because DeVos heard about it, and he threatened to take the money away, so my class got that, or maybe some classes before me, but as soon as the boss heard about it, they didn't really give us that lecture anymore. They got it that the same idea in other ways, but they did use him as a foil. Tom Jr: “ It seems interesting because she had that story earlier about the anti-war message that had had to be covered up, and how quickly that was covered up, and you know this was a conservative School treatments, but also teaching critical thought. Tom Jr: “Was there any tension in the University between the professors and the administration and the donors, or is there something larger going on in society that just kind of it was absorbed in Calvin's campus, so that the students and the faculty were starting to question was a larger movement you think?” Tom Sr: “Well I I think it was a larger movement in a way, because Calvin wasn't our only life. We were- you know- I was working at Hendricks at the time, a sheet metal company, I worked on a paint crew one summer. We were in a larger world, and we watched the news at night and things like that. And so we were aware of the Civil Rights, and what fascinated me most now that you're asking me about it- I'd forgotten about this- it was also the beginning of the environment; a raising of environmental awareness, Rachel Carson. We read Silent Spring in that CPO class as I remember. That was my first exposure to environmental degradation; the way that the economic system was just spoiling the environment, and so the one movement that I was somewhat involved in college was the environmental movement. I wasn't actively involved in the anti-war movement, or in the Civil Rights Movement, but I was involved in the environmental movement. Well when you thought about the environmental movement, and something needed to be done. Tom Jr: “Who did you see as the cause for these environmental problems? Was it the system itself? Was it greedy corporations? Was it rich people? Who was causing these environmental problems? What was the threat to your generation? Would you believe that you could change the world?” Tom Sr: “I think it focused largely on industry. I think I remember the DDT thing was- I mean- so the bald eagle was threatened with extinction, and the information came out that the DDT weakened their eggs, and they weren't having their little eaglets. You know growing up, and things like that, and then Dupont, of course, I think it was Dupont was the biggest seller of DDT, and we also knew that Agent Orange was degrading the environment of Vietnam; that was very clear, and so we saw the bad boys as greedy industry. I don't know if we- I don't think at that point- I was mature enough to see that I was greedy; that I was participating and I wanted all the goods of the that the modern economy was offering, but I didn't see my desire for the goods and services as part of the greedy system. I think that we focused largely on greedy CEOs, greedy corporations and you know that's partly true, but, of course, that's a system, and everybody's in the system, and that was that didn't come until that, that didn't come until I don't think I was old, or mature enough, so when you start thinking about these things, you start at- you know- kind of growing awareness class 101. And then graduate, you go to second year 201, and then eventually you get to 401 and you slowly begin to see the problem more deeply, or more clearly, but that wasn't I don't think at that stage, I didn't see myself so much as a participant. I saw myself as a somehow strangely outside of it. Tom Jr: “You mentioned Dupont; their slogan was Better Living Through Chemistry right? You would unlock the science; you'd make better products and it would make life easier, but you were talking about these pollutants, killing the bald eagle. So in your environmental activism these greedy corporations what you want to do so that they won't be hurting the environment? I mean what was your activism focused on doing? Tom Sr: “It was focused on legislation. We were- we wanted to create enough buzz around these issues that you would force Congress then to pass protections for- I think that there were some clean water, there were some major I think around 1970, there were some major legislation passed about clean water and the Endangered Species Act. I don't know if it was called that exactly, it was, yeah it was in those years, or very close to those years that we were, that was all, it took a while to get that but we were agitating, or I as I remember it for those bills to be passed, so we were largely thinking democratically using the system; making corrections, forcing, so reforming capitalism essentially. Tom Jr “ You didn't think about in those terms, but you were going to use government to make the corporations be more responsible right? Tom Sr: “yeah I think that's right. I think that's kind of Tom Jr: “When you were you were mobilizing through the democratic system; how were you doing that? You were having meetings, you were writing Congress people? How were you making change happen?” Tom Sr.: “ Well, it was largely. . . how did we make change happen? Yeah, that's a good question, because I remember one night we were, yeah it was it was scattered, it was a little Helter Skelter, those of us- I don't even know that we were even organized into a group- but um a group of us got together one night and said well how can we make Calvin more aware of the environmental problems? And this must have been like in 69, no it must have been um maybe yeah again like you said I don't I don't know the years now. They had a Commons bookstore Café, kind of area and they every morning when I would come to school early I would see there'd be a lot of black smoke coming out of the main chimney, and they were burning whatever refuse they weren't recycling; they were burning it, and the black smoke would just be. They wouldn't do it during the day, they would do it early in the morning, so no one could see it, so then our group got together. We said to others, yeah, you see that? Yeah, they all saw that. So then- I remember this- I worked at a sheet metal shop at the time, so I would make the different parts for you know anything that goes from your furnace to your register, all the metal work that gets the air, hot air ducts, and pipe, and elbows, and things like that, so um I there was a low, it was a low wind, there was a low ceiling, there was a place where you could climb up, and then come up on the roof. So one night I climbed up on the roof of that Commons and I took a measurement of that chimney, and I was going to make a metal box, and I was gonna drop it over the top of the chimney, so that when they tried to burn, it would, of course, it wouldn't release. And it was as a protest, well that I have that memory, so I remember going up. I remember getting the measurements, but I think that someone in the group at that point said you know um you don't want anyone to get hurt because of this, and you don't want to start a fire do you? This could go wrong; this is not such a good idea exactly- something like that. So, we ended up not doing it, but it shows you that we were aware, we were Helter Skelter. We had a few little plants, but we weren't going . . . . Tom Jr: “I have to stop you there a minute because historians have argued that there's a link between the Civil Rights Movement which was largely black students and activists during the 50s and early 60s and the subsequent counterculture Revolution that became more mainstream. It went to White campuses, but one of their techniques was activism and confronting injustice. So, Martin Luther King jr. would propose this and they'd have sit-ins and so your idea, which came spontaneously, you know, it's essentially a type of terrorism or vandalism; it's not something you would normally do. Was this an idea that was inspired, you think by the environment?” Tom Sr: “It was anger, yeah, that people were irresponsible; this was unnecessary. You didn't have to do this. There are other ways to do all of this. It's been Tom Jr: “Your action was for justice?” Tom Sr. “What you're doing is I would I think so yeah it wasn't it wasn't too in this case it was Justice for the environment I mean but partly you know we're part of the environment, it was Justice for us too, and, yeah, we felt I guess we felt- was Tom JR: “That incinerator in a way {was} a symbol of the establishment, the system that was not responding to justice that needed to be sent a message. How did you how did you view it did you see Calvin's authorities as connected somehow to decision makers, the corporations, the government?” Tom Sr: “Well, I think so I think that's I think it was a microcosm it is in a way I mean you know it's just a small you know go down to Gary, Indiana at the time, our Aaron, when I was that age, we breathed the worst air in the United States, because we were downwind from Gary Indiana. We thought we learned about those things too; air quality was a huge issue that we talked about, so we felt personally we had a personal stake in it, but it wasn’t really consciousness like you said. It wasn't, it wasn't wanting to hurt anybody, but to find almost like King did- find non-violent ways to protest, and then raise awareness, and so we thought- gosh- you know- think you know like that in the war thing, how effective that was. We thought well, we'll put that little lid on that thing.” Tom Jr. “And this is why you didn't act, because you, someone in your group said this kind of goes across the boundary to potentially being a violent act, that could cause harm right? Someone could get hurt, or maybe it starts a fire, or you know?” Tom Sr: “I don't know and then we kind of backed off on it, it didn't, you know, someone did propose rather than well I don't know something like don't close it off, leave a little opening you know, but we in the end, we didn't do it. We didn't do it so Tom Jr: “You talked earlier about the Martin Luther King assassination. This wasn't a major event. I mean this period for historians is interesting, because it's really at the turning between you know the height of the anti-war movement the transition to the 70s when there's a lot of you know liberal legislation to protect environment and everything else, you said that they closed down your high school and sent you home. Do you remember why they closed your school down? What were they afraid of? Tom Sr. “No, I think I'm accurate with that memory, but again you have to this is oral history right yeah you'd have to double check, but I they were um we had had um we had had riots in Detroit before this as I remember, so we were aware of that I guess. We were aware of that, too, I think they were afraid because we- our high school- was located in the quote “black neighborhood” of town. It was the corner of Madison and Fulton, or no full Fuller, no Franklin Madison and Franklin's no wait, not Franklin gosh, yeah isn't that funny I can't remember Madison and something, but anyway we were you know, just a few blocks from South High, which was an all-black high school, pretty much all-black high school, and I think they were afraid of riots; that's what I think. No one said that or anything. . .” Tom Jr: “Because you were talking earlier that- you know- about the Civil Rights Movement had a kind of a hard time making sense of it, but I think to what extent did you see racial injustice in in the community that you live in, like how many African or black students were there in your Christian High School?” Tom Sr: “Um, I don't think there was a single one. If I'm thinking about it now, later when adoption agencies started to be more active, there would be more families within our white largely Dutch communities that would be adapting Asian children, and maybe African children. I don't, so their Church Tom Jr: “Did you have any African or black African-Americans in Church?” Tom Sr: “No, not a single one. In fact, you know, because I you know I wrote about this when my dad died, and Phil is my younger, for those who are going to be reading this e found the original deed to my boyhood home that was they built. My parents built my house when I was born in 1950, and they lived there you know like 55 years before, maybe 60 years, before they went to a retirement home. The original deed was Caucasians only. That the new neighborhoods in the post-world War II were segregated and so I was guaranteed to grow up in a neighborhood that would not have any African-Americans in fact there was a provision that you could have black um people serving you in your home as domestic servants so there's a clause about that but there was something about they couldn't live there or something like that I don't know.” Tom Jr: “So Caucasians really means white, so it means not just Asians in America, but Hispanic s Asians too would be excluded from your neighborhood.” Tom Sr: “It just said Caucasians only and I think it was directed at black African-Americans and so um, yeah, I was guaranteed not to have any contact. There was not in our churches, not in our schools. In fact when I was a wrestler in high school, I've written about this too, uh, we, the first time we had to wrestle South High, I was in 10th Grade- must have been, yeah- I don't know my 1968 or no, no, 65 or something like that, also and I realized that I was gonna most likely be wrestling an African-American young man, and I was just I was I couldn't even think about the match, all I could think about he's going to be African-American. I'm gonna have to wrestle in African-American, and think of the symbolism here, we had never been in contact before, ever even touched before, and now we're gonna wrestle. Tom Jr: “ Talk about touch. Did they make you afraid or uncomfortable, or it is strange?” Tom Sr: “It just it just was a violation of the structures of my world. It made me, I don't, I wouldn't say afraid, but I was just I was confused basically, I didn't know what to make of it, and then I thought- I kind of thought to myself what in the heck, what do you, why are you going on about this this- you know- like you know, so my mind was just churning. Journey churning, and then the interest and here's the fascinating thing Tom is that so I'm all nervous, and sure enough you know, I don't know you've never gone to arresting me, but you all you line up by weights, and then before the meet starts the two wrestlers they stand on the side, and then weight by weight they go out, and they acknowledge each other. And I said, well, sure enough. I'm going to be wrestling a black guy, but then as soon as the match started, I was terribly nervous. I was kind of, I wouldn't even know what to do. He went in for a double Leg Takedown, which is a wrestling move, and I threw what we used to call a wizard to protect myself. Flat I pancaked, and threw a wizard, and as soon as we touched all of that anxiety was gone, and I thought, he's just a guy, like any other guy, like I don't know what the world you know- and so the rest of the wrestling match we're going back and forth. I'm not, I'm just wrestling a guy, and then I thought later years later, when I thought about that, the touch, that my society was so afraid of, was the very touch that I needed to overcome my fear. Isn't that ironic? It was, it was literally the touch that made you nervous because wrestling is very- I mean, yeah I think, yeah there's. Tom Jr.: “You've been so segregated your entire life.” Tom Sr. “Absolutely,” Tom Jr. “So this was really first Contact.” Tom Sr: “First Contact, first ever in my life, yeah, some of the race structures at least innocently by watching television and the Civil Rights well you could see there was Injustice, yeah, but it was still something else to be confronted right in this way, so we had no social interactions with African Americans before, nothing but my mother, and she had no interactions either, but my mother was very compassionate. She made it clear to us that every person was a person, and so we grew up in a home, I mean so it's ironic because all the social structures are racist, in a sense. . .” Tom Jr: “There’s institutionalized separation of peoples.” Tom Sr: “Call that whatever you want, but that's not the way, at least we were talking about our values as a family, and so that laid the groundwork, when I later would you know come to greater consciousness of what's going on, I had already my Mom had laid the ground, more than my dad- I think- my Mom had laid the groundwork, that every person was a person. Tom Jr: “ What would it happen if you had an African-American girlfriend. Would that have changed her view? Would she have accepted that? Would your father have accepted that or not?” Tom Sr: “Um, yeah I have no idea. I mean it wasn't. . .” Tom Jr: “Do you remember any interracial couples when you were growing up in high school or college?” Tom Sr: “Oh no, that was just that was a line that was simply not crossed. Yeah, no, no,” Tom Jr: “go ahead” Tom Sr: “No, no, never, not that I know, not that I could, certainly not a church not at school, um, no I don't think so.” Tom Jr: “What about other White ethnic groups like Poles or Roman Catholics with those other were those also completely?” Tom Sr: “Well interestingly in the neighborhood that I grew up in was a kind of Levittown neighborhood, a little tiny Levittown house, many tiny rooms, yeah so, that our tiny little house had four bedrooms, but you could hardly put a bed in the bedroom, the person across the street was Paul, the neighbor on the -what side would that be?- on the West Side, I guess, was Polish, and the family across the street was Jewish, and so we were we were with the Polish a lot of us were, but we weren't in an exclusive. . . There were other neighborhoods that were exclusively Dutch, we were in a quote- mixed neighborhood, and the uh, my mom was very good friends.” Tom Jr: “it was white.” Tom Sr: “It was definitely white. My mom was good friends with a Jewish couple across the street, and we did not go there, there was an anti polish, they were catholic and there was quite a barrier there, we did not interact with them. I mean we, my mom, was civil, they engaged each other as Neighbors, and he drank beer, he would sit on his porch at night and drink beer, and, uh and then after he'd had a few beers, he'd start singing songs, and we were all we were all a little suspicious that that was immoral. We weren't you know.” Tom Jr: “Those Catholics, you know, they don't have the same standards that we have?” Tom Sr: “Well no one said that, but that was kind of that was kind of what we were. Tom Jr: “still the idea of the Reformation going on?” Tom Sr: “Yeah, oh absolutely yeah that's that kind of anti-Catholic, in a way, you didn't associate, so anyway, so it was it was in that sense white index, which was unusual because a lot of my friends at school only lived in neighborhoods that were also entirely Dutch.” Tom Jr: “ It kind of reached the end of the hour, but I wanted to go back on a couple things you talked earlier about. You know there's an emerging conflict with your father about the war and politics, and your criticism of that I was wondering if that carried over to the environment as well, or if you're your father and your mother also felt that corporations had gone too far, and they needed to be reformed, to protect human health, air quality, protect our natural spaces, etc?” Tom Sr: “Well, I think, and I don't remember talking about it. Of course, my Dad, I never talked to my Dad about anything really. He was working all the time, yeah it the conflicts were largely political, and they were largely as I remember it- certainly around the war, but they weren't around the environment. My parents, when they were able, they didn't have a lot of money, but when they were able, and got a car that was good enough, we did extensive travel. And my parents loved nature. They loved getting out. We went to National Parks. We hiked, took thousands of slides of the Smoky Mountains, and the Tetons, and the Rockies, so I don't remember them saying anything explicit about it, but clearly nature had spiritual significance for them, I think. They wanted to share that with us, and we picked that up then when we were very young. So, I don't remember talking much about it, maybe the fact that I can't remember, we didn't fight about it. I think they probably agreed, they probably were sympathetic to that kind of thing. Tom Jr: “Just one last question. I didn't talk to you a lot about the hippies, and of course East Grand Rapids was not a big hippie Colony.” Tom Sr: “ East Grand Rapids, Tom is a separate town, so it's Grand Rapids. East Grand Rapids is where Jeremy lives now. Tom Jr: “Okay, so it's Grand Rapids, but the subculture influenced the wider culture in various ways like popular music, you know, Neil Young and John Lennon. Also the hippie uniform, so people were wearing clothes that were comfortable, they were not wearing the Brooks Brothers shirt, they were you know this was kind of a way of protesting the establishment in terms of your sartorial choices. Did you in any way adopt these types of fashions, consciously or unconsciously?” Tom Sr: “That's funny that you bring that up, because it I would have I wouldn't have thought of this, but, hair, was a big deal for my dad. And my dad was always at a buzz cut, a kind of a military buzz cut, and he would always cut our hair. And what he'd do is just take the thing, just shave you, so you had like a maybe an eighth of an inch left when he was done, all over your head. And then it would grow out. And then he'd shave it again. And he did that to save money. There's no way to know, I never sat in the seat of a barber, we would not pay, and probably couldn't afford to pay a barber, so he cut our hair, but then I started dating your Mom, Judy, in high school. And Judy hated that she didn't like that short hair. And so, grow it out, grow it out. And my dad did not like that. No, I finally, you know you're old enough, and you're dating, and you're like now a senior in high school. He can't. He's got no control over what you're going to do with your hair or anything like that. He did not. It's funny how that hippie culture for some came down to, I think for my dad it came down to hair. And if he saw that long hair, you know hanging all over, or covering your ears, he reacted to that. He didn't like it. Tom Jr: “ He took that as a rejection of him as a father, of the establishment, of his values?” Tom Sr: “What he tried to instill, I think, it was a symbol of loss of control, I mean that people who did that, didn't have restraint. So, I think he thought, well, you have to restrain yourself. You have to be disciplined. That, that's all, just seen that's just- you know- that's free love. You know if you can't control your hair, how are you going to control your sexual relationships? Tom Jr: “ So this was that kind of like what we call a gateway drug, if you begin with a longer hair, you're on the path to damnation, that you'd go into other things like you know maybe something?/” Tom Sr: “Like, yeah, you were being sucked into that uh Freedom closer yeah, yeah, the kind of hidden it he saw it as hedonistic. I think rather than it being disciplined. Tom Jr: “ And hedonistic would mean then anti-Christian values?” Tom Sr: “Yeah pleasure seeking, just you know you you're just life isn't to be you know actually life's not about pleasure, life's about work; that was my dad's view. Tom Jr: “What did you take from that kind of Calvinistic idea, like when you were growing your hair long, did you view this as Hedonism, rejecting the bad, or were just growing out your hair? I mean did you look at hippies, and also look down on them, that this was hedonistic?” Tom Sr: “No, no, no, I didn't I didn't think anything of it. I thought some of the outfits were ugly. I thought I'm not going to wear that, but it wasn't because I was opposed to it, or anything. I grew mine in now, when I went in the Seminary, my hair, I grew my hair pretty long.” Tom Jr: “And your dad's criticism was ridiculous then, you just didn't take that seriously? You saw that that as being kind of a limited immature?” Tom Sr: “Yeah, I mean I just um, that was just him. And I thought, yeah, I thought, and said I thought it was in a sense, that's ridiculous. So I said to him, even as a young boy, oh Dad, don't cut my hair. And he said, I have to. Your hair's is too thin. So he'd give me these awful excuses about it so I grew up thinking, oh I've always got to have short hair, because my hair is too thin, because that's what my dad told me. So I mean, he had a stake in that. I think with his friends, when he wanted his friends to see us as his boys, that that he was trying to send a message by that, to his world. You know, I don't know, but hair was a big deal. Tom Jr: “Did it include then shaving, or did you grow your hair long or not shave or was that any way a part of it?” Tom Sr: “Yeah, I would have included that, but you know sideburns, I didn't like sideburns. I think, yeah, I didn't , now my brother Pete, he always shaved in high school. I didn't shave until I hit later in college. I mean I had a little bit of facial hair, but not a lot until I kind of reached my mid-20s, really or early 20s, maybe, so shaving wasn't so much an issue, but yeah, it's interesting to say that now. you say, that as soon as I could, I had a mustache. My whole life, as soon as I could grow a mustache, I had one. That was also, actually, you're right, that was kind of a that was a little sign you know. Tom Jr: “That you're not going to be clean shaven, as the way he had taught you should be.” Tom Sr: “Um, yeah, yeah,” Tom Jr: “Well, we've gone a little bit over an hour. As there any other things you want to add, based on our conversation? We only kind of really scratched the surface. There's obviously a lot of things there?” Tom Sr: “Right, yeah, I was something I was gonna Flash. Now I forgot about I was going to tell you, but no, I think those are some of the memories. Tom Jr: “so I'm uh pausing the interview at 12 15.” Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Video recording (simple vocab) Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) Leave blank Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview Leave blank Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boogaart, Thomas Sr. (interview) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-07-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 50 minutes, 06 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Relation A related resource <iframe width="100%" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8ckWFZGMYeE?si=b20xNciR9S3d_GUy" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><br /><br /><span class="citationStyles_Gno2WRpf" aria-live="polite"><span class="citationStyles_Gno2WRpf" aria-live="polite">"</span></span>Boogaart, Thomas Sr, (interview) July 17, 2023<span id="formatted-citation-text" class="citationStyles_Gno2WRpf" aria-live="polite">." Life on Campus. July 17, 2023. Video, https://youtu.be/8ckWFZGMYeE?si=-_xLIxNPTgxBz-ZZ.</span> Description An account of the resource Testimonial about Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan during the 1970s, including the antiwar movement and the counterculture revolution. 1970s Antiwar Movement Calvin College Grand Rapids, Racism Vietnam War Person An individual. Birth Date 1950 Birthplace Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States Occupation professor Biographical Text Lecturer, Rijksuniversiteit Groningen 1978-1981, 1984-1986 Replacement Professor, Central College 1981-1983, 1984-1986 Fellow, Exeter University, 1983-1984 Professor, Western Theological Seminary 1986-2019 Ethnicity Dutch Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Degree PhD MA BA Bibliography Leave blank Schools Attended Calvin College, 1968-1972 Western Theological Seminary, 1972-1975 Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, 1975-1981 Career education Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boogaart, Thomas Type The nature or genre of the resource person Person An individual. Birth Date 1948 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Carleton University: ? - 1971 University of Ottawa, 1971 - 1974 Degree Professional degree BA Occupation Lawyer Author Religious Culture Orthodox Christian Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tannis, Ernest Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource person Person An individual. Birth Date 1946 Birthplace Montreal, Quebec, Canada Schools Attended McGill University, 1963-1968 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1968-1970 University of Ottawa, 1971-1974 Degree Professional degree MA BA Career professional Occupation Lawyer Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Reformed Judaism Devotional Life practicing Gender Identity man Sexual Orientation straight Biographical Text Articling Student, Cassels 1974-1975 Student, Law Society of Upper Ontario 1975-1976 Lawyer, Barrigar & Oyen 1976-1980 Partner, Barrigar & Oyen 1980-1984 Associate Lawyer, Smart & Biggar 1984-1985, 1985-1986 Partner, Smart & Biggar 1986-2011 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., Jacob (Pseudonym) Type The nature or genre of the resource person