1 10 4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gigi Kaur Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Helene Goulet Location The location of the interview Ottawa (over Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:11.982 --> 0:0:19.282 Gigi Kaur OK, ça marche parfait c'est bon, OK, alors je vais commencer avec Hélène Goulet. OK, it works perfectly, it's good, OK, so I'll start with Hélène Goulet. 0:0:19.292 --> 0:0:21.92 Gigi Kaur Goulet, vous allez bien? Goulet, how are you? 0:0:21.732 --> 0:0:23.72 Hélène Goulet Oui, merci vous-même. Yes, thank you yourself. 0:0:23.622 --> 0:0:24.742 Gigi Kaur Toujours. Always Always 0:0:25.92 --> 0:0:33.182 Gigi Kaur Alors aujourd'hui, on fait une petite entrevue pour mon cours d'histoire, historiens, craft pour comprendre les francophones qu'ils étaient là. So today, we're doing a little interview for my history class, historians, craft to understand the francophones they were there. 0:0:34.2 --> 0:1:4.672 Gigi Kaur Pendant les 4 vingts, les 1970 que je vais faire un petit intro, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée au toi, une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés les uns ou l'autre. During the 4 twenties, the 1970s, which I'm going to give a little intro to, cultural historians argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a car-centric consumer culture created a North American popular culture more integrated with the bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related to each other. 0:1:5.42 --> 0:1:14.632 Gigi Kaur La première question que je vous demanderai il y a, il y avait moyen d'appareils électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970? The first question I'll ask you is, how many electronic devices were there in Canadian society in the 1970s? 0:1:14.962 --> 0:1:23.752 Gigi Kaur Comment ôter, structure votre temps libre est que vous faisiez les étudiants de l'université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années quatre-vingt? How to remove, structure your free time is what you were doing University of Ottawa students for fun in the eighties? 0:1:24.2 --> 0:1:26.72 Gigi Kaur 1970. 1970 0:1:26.742 --> 0:1:35.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais, d'accord, ça m'a fait un peu rire la question, parce que je me suis rendu compte que je n’étais pas peut-être pas typique complètement. Yeah, okay, I kind of laughed at the question, because I realized that maybe I wasn't completely typical. 0:1:37.282 --> 0:1:47.422 Hélène Goulet Les dans l'État libre, qui étaient assez peu nombreux finalement, parce que moi je venais d'un petit village, j'arrivais à Ottawa, je ne connaissais pas la ville. Those in the Free State, who were actually quite few in number, because I came from a small village, I'd just arrived in Ottawa, I didn't know the city. 0:1:48.812 --> 0:1:59.152 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus aussi, chez dans la famille, dans la famille, puis j'aidais aussi dans cette famille alors euh. And I lived off-campus too, with my family, in the family, and I also helped out in the family, so um. 0:2:1.82 --> 0:2:6.882 Hélène Goulet Entre les cours, on était un petit groupe, moi je faisais un bac en littérature française et anglaise. Between classes, we were a small group, and I was doing a bac in French and English literature. 0:2:7.852 --> 0:2:20.102 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis liée d'amitié avec ohh 43 ou 45 personnes avec qui on se retrouvait presque tous dans les mêmes cours. And then I made friends with ohh 43 or 45 people with whom we almost all ended up in the same classes. 0:2:20.612 --> 0:2:26.882 Hélène Goulet Et puis entre les cours, on allait souvent à la cafétéria prendre un café, puis jaser. Between classes, we'd often go to the cafeteria for a coffee and a chat. 0:2:27.172 --> 0:2:29.442 Hélène Goulet Fait, il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient. In fact, there was a lot going on. 0:2:31.432 --> 0:2:35.252 Hélène Goulet Et puis moi, Bin les week-ends, je travaillais. And well, I worked on weekends. 0:2:36.792 --> 0:2:38.172 Hélène Goulet Euh la première année? Uh, the first year? 0:2:39.182 --> 0:2:41.352 Hélène Goulet Ouais et weekend. Yeah and weekend. 0:2:41.392 --> 0:2:48.882 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à travailler, je ne me souviens pas si c'était en première année ou en 2e année université, mais je travaillais jeudi soir. I started working, I don't remember if it was my first year or my 2nd year at university, but I worked Thursday evenings. 0:2:48.892 --> 0:2:50.632 Hélène Goulet vendredi soir, samedi, toute la journée. Friday evening, Saturday, all day. 0:2:51.652 --> 0:2:55.832 Hélène Goulet Euh, fait que mes activités sociales étaient reliées. Uh, that my social activities were related. 0:2:58.152 --> 0:3:15.542 Hélène Goulet Je veux un copain la première année que je fais, que j'ai eu un moment donné des copains, des copains, c'est que ma vie sociale était plus autour d’une seule personne ou la famille avec qui J’habitais, qui était ma tante et mes cousins, c'était surtout ça. I want a boyfriend the first year that I do, that I had at some point buddies, buddies, it's that my social life was more around one person or the family that I lived with, which was my aunt and my cousins, it was mostly that. 0:3:15.582 --> 0:3:22.882 Hélène Goulet Je ne, je ne buvais pas d'alcool, je probablement parce que je ne peux pas, je ne peux pas digérer l'alcool. I don't, I don't drink alcohol, I probably don't because I can't, I can't digest alcohol. 0:3:23.782 --> 0:3:38.112 Hélène Goulet Et puis j’ai-je, j'étais très consciente qu'il y avait beaucoup de consommation de marijuana autour de moi, surtout avec des étudiants qui étaient dans les en littérature, c'était encore plus un peu plus épié, plus. And then I, I was very aware that there was a lot of marijuana use around me, especially with students who were in literature, it was even more a little more spied on, more. 0:3:39.752 --> 0:3:43.2 Hélène Goulet Mais moi, je n’ai jamais consommé, j'étais très plate. But I never used, I was very flat. 0:3:45.452 --> 0:3:53.922 Gigi Kaur Moi, moi j'ai trouvé que vous n’êtes pas plate, vous êtes très discipliné, vous à vos affaires, parce que moi je suis restée à la même personne que la semaine. I've found that you're not flat, you're very disciplined, you go about your business, because I've stayed with the same person all week. 0:3:52.532 --> 0:3:55.392 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je suis très disciplinée, c'est vrai. Yeah, I'm very disciplined, that's true. 0:3:53.932 --> 0:3:55.802 Gigi Kaur Différence, c'est que je bois un peu, mais. The difference is that I drink a little, but... 0:3:56.622 --> 0:4:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis mes cours souvent mes cours étaient-elles le matin, j'essaierai d'avoir mes cours concentrés parce que j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus. Yeah, then my classes often my classes were them in the morning, I'll try to have my classes focused because I lived off campus. 0:4:5.552 --> 0:4:22.42 Hélène Goulet Alors quand je retournais à la maison, je retournais pour le reste de la journée, puis j'étais ma tante était monoparental, avec 3 enfants, dont le plus jeune avait 6h, alors j'étais à la maison pour recevoir l'enfant après l'école. So, when I went home, I went home for the rest of the day, then I was my aunt was a single parent, with 3 children, the youngest of whom was 6, so I was home to receive the child after school. 0:4:23.142 --> 0:4:33.712 Hélène Goulet Et puis, pour commencer à préparer le, le repas du soir pour lui aider à préparer le repas du soir fait que c'est un peu ça ma vie, c'est mes parents étaient à l'extérieur d'Ottawa, alors. And then, to start preparing the, the evening meal to help him prepare the evening meal that's kind of my life, my parents were outside Ottawa, so. 0:4:35.462 --> 0:4:44.372 Hélène Goulet Ça m'arrivait le dimanche matin, de prendre le train, puis aller passer la journée avec mes parents puis revenir le soir avec quelqu'un, mais pas toutes les semaines, pas toutes les semaines. Sometimes on Sunday mornings, I'd take the train, spend the day with my parents and then come back in the evening with someone, but not every week, not every week. 0:4:47.372 --> 0:4:51.142 Gigi Kaur Parlant des transports, est-ce que vous étiez très loin de l’école? Speaking of transportation, were you very far from the school? 0:4:51.152 --> 0:5:4.192 Gigi Kaur Ça prenait beaucoup de temps parce que je sais que aujourd hui le transport ça prend beaucoup de temps quand même, n’y a pas changé, n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est que je voulais savoir pendant les 70 est-ce que le transport était plus vite plus long? It took a lot of time because I know that today transportation takes a lot of time anyway, it hasn't changed, there's not much that has changed, but I wanted to know during the 70's was transportation faster longer. 0:5:4.492 --> 0:5:6.252 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que c'était compliqué? Was it complicated? 0:5:6.262 --> 0:5:8.192 Gigi Kaur C'était comment votre expérience ou pas? What was your experience like? 0:5:9.842 --> 0:5:16.262 Hélène Goulet C'était un bus que je prenais très près de la maison à 3 blocs, 3 ou 4 blocs, et j'habite à Vanier. It was a bus that I took very close to home, 3 or 4 blocks away, and I live in Vanier. 0:5:17.232 --> 0:5:26.2 Hélène Goulet Et puis c'est elle te bus numéro 3 à l'époque, c'est plus la même chose maintenant, puis il m'amenait à la rue rideau et Dalhousie. And then it was the number 3 bus back then, it's not the same now, and it took me to Rideau and Dalhousie. 0:5:26.12 --> 0:5:33.12 Hélène Goulet Je crois, alors après ça, je marchais pour aller au campus, alors je marchais, ça me faisait quand même marcher un peu. I think, so after that, I'd walk to campus, so I'd walk, it still made me walk a bit. 0:5:33.52 --> 0:5:34.152 Hélène Goulet Ce qui était très bien. Which was fine. 0:5:34.622 --> 0:5:39.572 Hélène Goulet Euh que c'est un seul bus, ça ne prenait pas très longtemps parce que ce n’est pas très loin. It's only one bus, so it didn't take very long because it's not very far. 0:5:43.982 --> 0:5:44.142 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:5:39.582 --> 0:5:47.432 Hélène Goulet Finalement, c'est peut-être 10, 12-15 minutes, je ne sais pas fait que d'après moi je pouvais me rendre si l'autobus arrivait à l'heure. In the end, it's maybe 10, 12-15 minutes, I don't know, but I think I could make it if the bus arrived on time. 0:5:47.782 --> 0:5:49.792 Hélène Goulet C'était une question de 30 minutes. It was a 30-minute question. 0:5:51.452 --> 0:5:54.382 Hélène Goulet Total, c'est 30 35 minutes avec la marche. Total: 30-35 minutes with walking. 0:5:59.792 --> 0:6:8.402 Gigi Kaur Vous avez dit que vous étiez, avec votre copain, votre famille, et cetera, mais vous avez une vie plus personnelle que sociale à UOttawa. You said you were, with your boyfriend, your family, et cetera, but you have more of a personal life than a social one in UOttawa. 0:6:8.892 --> 0:6:9.102 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:6:8.982 --> 0:6:13.42 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez assisté à des spectacles musicaux pendant vos années d'université? Did you attend any musical performances during your university years? 0:6:13.462 --> 0:6:18.12 Hélène Goulet Oui, beaucoup, j'ai fait ça beaucoup parce qu'on a eu, on avait la boîte à chansons. Yes, a lot, I did that a lot because we had, we had the song box. 0:6:18.142 --> 0:6:21.552 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas si ça s'appelait comme ça, mais il y avait. I don't know if it was called that, but there it was. 0:6:21.562 --> 0:6:41.482 Hélène Goulet Il y avait plusieurs petits immeubles à l'époque gris, des petites maisons grises, comme on voit encore sur le campus, puis dans c’est un de ces immeubles-là, je ne me souviens pas lequel, il y avait un petit, une boîte à chanson au sous-sol, alors j'ai vu déjà qui sont décédés maintenant. There were several small gray buildings at the time, small gray houses, as you can still see on campus, and then in one of these buildings, I don't remember which one, there was a small, a song box in the basement, so I've already seen who's passed away now. 0:6:41.492 --> 0:6:49.342 Hélène Goulet Comme Georges Adoré, québécois qui était très connu à l'époque, Claude Léveillé, Jean-Pierre Ferland. Like Georges Adoré, a Quebecker who was very well known at the time, Claude Léveillée, Jean-Pierre Ferland. 0:6:49.752 --> 0:6:53.482 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu ces gens-là probablement tous à la boîte à chanson. I've seen these people probably all at the song box. 0:6:53.852 --> 0:6:55.972 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu Georges Moustaki I saw Georges Moustaki 0:6:56.222 --> 0:7:1.742 Hélène Goulet Ce sont des heures qui venaient d'ouvrir, puis les étudiants pouvaient y aller pour 2$ dans le balcon. These were hours that had just opened, then students could go for $2 in the balcony. 0:7:3.282 --> 0:7:5.312 Hélène Goulet Alors j'ai fait ça à quelques reprises aussi. So, I did that a few times too. 0:7:7.562 --> 0:7:17.292 Hélène Goulet J'en ai peut-être vu d'autres, mais là, ça m'échappe, mais je recherche beaucoup de la musique en français parce que Ben, j'ai, j'ai d'abord j'ai grandi dans une famille francophone. I may have seen others, but it escapes me, but I look for French music a lot because Ben, I grew up in a French-speaking family. 0:7:17.712 --> 0:7:23.572 Hélène Goulet Et puis la télé était quand même quelque chose de quand j'étais adolescente, moi je suis naze. And then TV was still something of when I was a teenager, I'm lame. 0:7:23.582 --> 0:7:24.652 Hélène Goulet 54. 54 0:7:25.422 --> 0:7:28.642 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais adolescente, la télé, ce n’est pas très vieux encore. When I was a teenager, TV wasn't very old yet. 0:7:29.182 --> 0:7:33.542 Hélène Goulet Il y avait même la plupart des gens n’avaient même pas une télé en couleur, c'était noir et blanc. Most people didn't even have a color TV, it was all black and white. 0:7:34.112 --> 0:7:40.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis fait que j'écoutais beaucoup les émissions culturelles francophones comme jeunesse d'aujourd'hui. I also listened to a lot of French-language cultural programs like Youth Today. 0:7:40.922 --> 0:7:47.482 Hélène Goulet Bon fait que je fais que j'étais beaucoup plus axé sur la musique francophone, je connaissais les Beatles et Rolling Stones. The fact that I was much more focused on French music, I knew the Beatles and Rolling Stones. 0:7:47.492 --> 0:7:59.972 Hélène Goulet J'avais qu'ils étaient, je connaissais certaines chansons, mais euh, ce n’était pas mon gars, tu, mon gout est toujours en français, même si c'était complètement bilingue, parce que j'ai grandi dans un village. I knew that they were, I knew certain songs, but uh, it wasn't my guy, you, my taste is always in French, even if it was completely bilingual, because I grew up in a village. 0:8:1.542 --> 0:8:6.342 Hélène Goulet Complètement bilingue n'est parents, avaient magasin général, alors j'ai grandi complètement bilingue. Completely bilingual is not parents, had general store, so I grew up completely bilingual. 0:8:7.912 --> 0:8:13.692 Hélène Goulet Ouais, mais j'ai toujours travaillé fort pour conserver la langue, ouais. Yeah, but I've always worked hard to keep the language, yeah. 0:8:14.2 --> 0:8:20.472 Gigi Kaur Et parlons de la langue française est ce qu'il y avait de la difficulté à conserver la langue française à UOttawa? And speaking of the French language, was it difficult to preserve the French language at UOttawa? 0:8:20.482 --> 0:8:22.672 Gigi Kaur Ça, c'était plus Intéressant. That was more interesting. 0:8:27.482 --> 0:8:34.992 Hélène Goulet Y avait, il y avait beaucoup plus de francophones proportionnellement à l'époque, j'ai l'impression, c'était très bilingue à l'époque. There were, there were many more Francophones proportionally at the time, I have the impression, it was very bilingual at the time. 0:8:36.212 --> 0:8:42.692 Hélène Goulet Ce que j'ai remarqué parce que je suis retournée à l'université d'Ottawa à quelques reprises étudier plus tard. Which I noticed because I went back to the University of Ottawa a few times to study later. 0:8:42.972 --> 0:8:55.772 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'ai remarqué qu'il y avait eu un glissement que y a beaucoup d'étudiants étrangers qui ne parlent pas français, alors il y a eu un glissement vers l'anglais beaucoup plus. And then I noticed that there had been a shift that there are a lot of foreign students who don't speak French, so there's been a shift towards English a lot more. 0:8:56.502 --> 0:8:59.942 Hélène Goulet D'après moi, et je pense que j'ai lu là-dessus aussi là. In my opinion, and I think I've read about it there too. 0:9:0.292 --> 0:9:6.512 Hélène Goulet Mais à l'époque, on entendait parler français partout, c'est y avait beaucoup de la part des franco-ontariens. But back then, you could hear French being spoken everywhere, so there was a lot of Franco-Ontarian involvement. 0:9:7.832 --> 0:9:12.812 Hélène Goulet Euh aller à l'université d'Ottawa parce que, à l'université de Sudbury, n’existait pas là laurentienne. Uh go to the University of Ottawa because, at the University of Sudbury, didn't exist there. 0:9:12.822 --> 0:9:14.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu’elle n’existait pas à l'époque. I don't think it existed back then. 0:9:20.892 --> 0:9:21.302 Gigi Kaur Ah ouais? Oh Yea? 0:9:15.612 --> 0:9:26.532 Hélène Goulet Et puis on ne serait pas allé au Québec parce qu'on n'avait pas fait le cégep, alors les gens du Québec Fini en Ontario fait que y avait beaucoup de francophones. And then we wouldn't have gone to Quebec because we hadn't gone to CEGEP, so people from Quebec ended up in Ontario because there were a lot of francophones there. 0:9:27.592 --> 0:9:29.512 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très intéressant. OK I find that very interesting. 0:9:26.652 --> 0:9:30.512 Hélène Goulet Ouais toute façon ouais. Yeah anyway yeah. 0:9:35.942 --> 0:9:36.402 Hélène Goulet Hum. Hum 0:9:40.22 --> 0:9:40.222 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:31.592 --> 0:9:40.592 Gigi Kaur Parce que c'est tellement vrai, on a beaucoup de élèves internationaux qui vient de partout maintenant fait qu'on voit de plus en plus en anglais, c'est clair. Because it's so true, we have a lot of international students from all over the world now, so we're seeing more and more in English, that's for sure. 0:9:40.602 --> 0:9:42.692 Gigi Kaur C'est évident que je trouve ça intéressant encore. Obviously, I still find it interesting. 0:9:42.702 --> 0:9:44.42 Gigi Kaur À l'époque, c'était plus francophone. Back then, it was more francophone. 0:9:44.512 --> 0:9:44.822 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:45.732 --> 0:9:53.872 Gigi Kaur Parlant de des pays, des cultures, et cetera, les 40s, les 70, toujours 80, juste pourquoi? Speaking of countries, cultures, et cetera, the 40s, the 70s, still the 80s, just why? 0:9:57.992 --> 0:9:58.442 Hélène Goulet Oui. Yes 0:9:53.882 --> 0:9:58.452 Gigi Kaur Mais les 70Y avait eu la guerre de Vietnam. But the 70Y had the Vietnam War. 0:9:58.872 --> 0:10:1.972 Gigi Kaur Alors, qu'est-ce que vous avez pensé sur la gare de l'événement? So, what did you think of the event station? 0:10:1.982 --> 0:10:5.112 Gigi Kaur Puis, est-ce que vous étiez sur les, les manifestations et cetera? Then, were you on the demonstrations and so on? 0:10:5.562 --> 0:10:9.782 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, j'ai, je n’ai jamais été une personne qui manifestait facilement. No, I've, I've, I've never been a person who protests easily. 0:10:9.832 --> 0:10:14.702 Hélène Goulet J'ai peut-être manifesté de nous 2 fois dans ma vie. I may have manifested from us twice in my life. 0:10:14.712 --> 0:10:23.542 Hélène Goulet Je suis, c'est je ne sais pas vraiment mon bag parce que je trouve que beaucoup de polarisation dans les manifestations. I'm, I don't really know what my bag is because I find that there's a lot of polarization in the demonstrations. 0:10:23.552 --> 0:10:27.22 Hélène Goulet Puis je j'ai tendance à voir les choses de façon beaucoup plus nuancée. Then I tend to see things in a much more nuanced way. 0:10:28.292 --> 0:10:34.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, je ne me souviens pas d'avoir eu, je suis certaine qu'on en a parlé, mais je ne m’en souviens pas vraiment. Uh, I don't remember having, I'm sure we talked about it, but I don't really remember. 0:10:34.652 --> 0:10:40.442 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens plus de ce qui est arrivé avant avec la Guerre froide, puis la crise domicile à Cuba. I can't remember what happened before with the Cold War, then the Cuban home crisis. 0:10:41.122 --> 0:10:52.892 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais au à l'école secondaire, ça, c'est très clair dans mon esprit, la peur que la population avait à l'époque, c'était ça, c'est très palpable. When I was in high school, it's very clear in my mind, the fear that people had at the time, that was it, it's very palpable. 0:10:53.692 --> 0:10:58.2 Hélène Goulet La guerre du Vietnam je ne connaissais pas beaucoup d'Américains à l'époque non plus. I didn't know many Americans back then either. 0:10:58.12 --> 0:11:8.982 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que tu sais toute cette controverse qui avait aux États-Unis qui étaient vraiment très forte aux États-Unis, c'est comme si, en littérature, ça nous rejoint, ça ne nous rejoignait pas beaucoup. So, you know, all this controversy in the United States, which was really, really strong in the United States, it's as if, in literature, it reached us, it didn't reach us very much. 0:11:8.992 --> 0:11:11.52 Hélène Goulet Peut-être, si on avait étudié en histoire ou en. Maybe, if we had studied history or. 0:11:13.142 --> 0:11:15.262 Hélène Goulet Science politique on aurait été beaucoup plus. Political science we would have been much more. 0:11:18.132 --> 0:11:19.142 Hélène Goulet Pris là-dedans, tu sais? Caught up in it, you know? 0:11:19.152 --> 0:11:22.892 Hélène Goulet Dans ces discussions là, mais en littérature, on avait un peu la tête dans les nuages. In these discussions, but in literature, we had our heads in the clouds. 0:11:34.742 --> 0:11:36.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:11:26.572 --> 0:11:40.762 Gigi Kaur Ouais c'est vrai, c'est compréhensible parce que moi je suis dans le cours de l'histoire et science politique, mais nous on est toujours mais elle est dans ces sujets là comme carrément y a la situation de Palestine et Israël fait qu'on parle toujours de ça, il Ukraine. Yeah, it's true, it's understandable because I'm in the history and political science course, but we're always but she's in these subjects there as squarely there's the situation of Palestine and Israel makes that we always talk about it, it Ukraine. 0:11:39.72 --> 0:11:49.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais Ben c'est maintenant, je suis beaucoup prise politisée maintenant dans ma vie je suis beaucoup plus qui se passe dans le monde maintenant mais à l'époque moi j'étais très jeune aussi. I'm much more aware of what's going on in the world now, but back then I was very young too. 0:11:49.372 --> 0:12:0.942 Hélène Goulet Il faut dire que je suis arrivée à l'université, j'avais, j'avais, je venais de mon petit village fait que juste adaptation à la ville, à l'université, je ne connaissais personne dans mes cours. It has to be said that when I arrived at university, I had, I had, I came from my little village, so just adapting to the city, at university, I didn't know anyone in my classes. 0:12:1.722 --> 0:12:5.82 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, c'est très Axios gêne. It was very difficult, it's very axios embarrassing. 0:12:6.62 --> 0:12:12.102 Hélène Goulet C'est qu'il y a eu y a eu ça parce que je devais travailler et que j'avais beaucoup de responsabilités quand même. That's because I had to work, and I had a lot of responsibility. 0:12:12.112 --> 0:12:13.782 Hélène Goulet J'étais l'aîné de ma famille. I was the eldest in my family. 0:12:14.192 --> 0:12:22.292 Hélène Goulet Et puis l'année avant que j’aie l'université, on a eu un feu, on a, on a perdu notre maison, notre magasin. And then the year before I went to university, we had a fire, we lost our house, our store. 0:12:23.452 --> 0:12:28.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis dans un petit village, il n’y a pas de logement, n’y a pas d'appartement. Uh, then in a small village, there's no housing, there's no apartment. 0:12:28.682 --> 0:12:33.202 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, alors mon sens. It was very, very difficult, then, in my opinion. 0:12:33.212 --> 0:12:38.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'avais des frères et des sœurs que moi j'essayais de passer à travers l'université plus vite possible. And then I had brothers and sisters that I was trying to get through college as quickly as possible. 0:12:38.632 --> 0:12:42.942 Hélène Goulet J'ai fait un cours de 4h03 ans parce que je voulais pouvoir aider à mon frère, pour ma sœur. I did a 4:03 course because I wanted to be able to help my brother, for my sister. 0:12:44.712 --> 0:12:48.192 Hélène Goulet Et puis il se fait que j'ai mon sens des responsabilités aiguë. I also happen to have a strong sense of responsibility. 0:12:49.882 --> 0:12:52.92 Hélène Goulet Probablement trop aigu pour mon âge. Probably too sharp for my age. 0:12:52.102 --> 0:12:57.482 Hélène Goulet J'avais à peine 17 ans quand je suis arrivée à l'université, j'étais très jeune. I was barely 17 when I went to university, so I was very young. 0:12:57.942 --> 0:13:3.592 Hélène Goulet Et puis je partais d'un tout petit village, puis je partais d'une école secondaire où j'étais une première de classe. And then I left a very small village, and then I left a high school where I was top of my class. 0:13:3.602 --> 0:13:5.522 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais, tout le monde me connaissait. So, you know, everybody knew me. 0:13:6.112 --> 0:13:10.542 Hélène Goulet Euh bon c'est sûr que ça c'était un gros changement pour moi. Ouais. Well, that was a big change for me. Yeah, it was. 0:13:10.542 --> 0:13:12.122 Gigi Kaur En parlons des gros changements. Let's talk about the big changes. 0:13:12.592 --> 0:13:14.572 Gigi Kaur Je sais que y a plus que ce que je vous demande. I know there's more to it than meets the eye. 0:13:14.582 --> 0:13:24.12 Gigi Kaur C'est vraiment été personnel, ce n’est pas sur la feuille, mais tu sais, je voulais savoir comme vous avez dit la première année, c'était quand même difficile ce que vous avez fait des amis comme facilement. It's really been personal, it's not on the sheet, but you know, I wanted to know as you said the first year, it was still difficult what you did friends as easily. 0:13:24.22 --> 0:13:25.82 Gigi Kaur C'était un petit style aussi. It was a little style too. 0:13:25.772 --> 0:13:27.302 Hélène Goulet Non, je suis assez sociable. No, I'm quite sociable. 0:13:27.312 --> 0:13:35.362 Hélène Goulet Et puis je suis un peu timide mais pas outre mesure, je ne suis pas introverti, je suis plutôt extravertie. And then I'm a bit shy but not overly so, I'm not an introvert, I'm more of an extrovert. 0:13:35.372 --> 0:13:39.62 Hélène Goulet Pas exagérer non plus moins maintenant qu'à l'époque, probablement. It's no exaggeration either, probably less so now than then. 0:13:41.72 --> 0:13:57.952 Hélène Goulet Alors non, je me suis fait un petit groupe d'amis, là très solide, qui a duré pendant toutes les années d'études parce qu'on se retrouvait dans les mêmes cours tout le temps, parce qu'on se spécialisait dans la température, se fait qu'on se retrouvait dans des courses de spécialisation et où il n’y avait presque personne en fait. So no, I made a very solid little group of friends, which lasted throughout my years of study, because we ended up in the same courses all the time, because we were specializing in temperature, and we ended up in specialization courses where there was hardly anyone. 0:13:57.962 --> 0:13:58.822 Hélène Goulet 678. 678 0:13:58.832 --> 0:14:7.602 Hélène Goulet Des fois que c'est toujours le même monde, on t'a toujours avec les mêmes personnes, puis dans les cours de littérature anglaise, ça, c'était intéressant. Sometimes it's always the same world, you're always with the same people, and in English literature classes, that was interesting. 0:14:7.612 --> 0:14:14.652 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas que ma te fais des amis, euh, c'est ma mineure en anglais, elle te retient. I don't remember my making friends, uh, it's my English minor, she's holding you back. 0:14:14.662 --> 0:14:32.152 Hélène Goulet Anglais, c'était ma spécialisation mineure, ma concentration et je ne me souviens pas de m'être fait des amis durables qui ont duré dans le temps, probablement parce que j'avais un petit groupe d'amis qui étaient très solidaire, puis on était, comme presque toujours dans les mêmes courbes. English was my minor specialization, my concentration, and I don't remember making any lasting friends who lasted over time, probably because I had a small group of friends who were very supportive, and then we were, as almost always, in the same curves. 0:14:32.162 --> 0:14:35.262 Hélène Goulet Mais cours d'anglais était souvent très tôt le matin aussi. But English classes were often very early in the morning too. 0:14:35.812 --> 0:14:38.362 Hélène Goulet Alors je ne sais pas, je ne peux pas l'expliquer. So, I don't know, I can't explain it. 0:14:38.772 --> 0:14:54.632 Hélène Goulet Les cours de sociologie, psychologie en première année, c'était des immenses cours avec des centaines d'étudiants, alors ce n’était pas vraiment propice à non plus à enfin avoir des relations plus proches avec les gens. First-year sociology and psychology courses were huge classes with hundreds of students, so it wasn't exactly conducive to finally getting to know people. 0:14:55.92 --> 0:14:55.742 Hélène Goulet Ça fait quoi? How does it feel? 0:14:55.752 --> 0:15:0.792 Hélène Goulet On, c'est comme en fait ce petit groupe là, puis on fait beaucoup de choses ensemble. We're like this little group, and we do a lot of things together. 0:15:2.82 --> 0:15:3.802 Gigi Kaur OKOK parfait. OK Perfect 0:15:8.732 --> 0:15:9.482 Hélène Goulet Non, ça va. No, I'm fine. 0:15:4.982 --> 0:15:32.42 Gigi Kaur Je vais faire un changement de sujet si ça ne vous dérange pas la prochaine question, ce sera les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils ont appelé le féminisme de la 2e vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de là de la contre-culture, les femmes de du début des années 1970, on cherchait à briser les barrières entre les sexes. I'm going to change the subject if you don't mind, the next question will be Cultural historians have written a lot about what they've called 2nd wave feminism, namely that as part of the counter-culture movement, women in the early 1970s were looking to break down barriers between the sexes. 0:15:32.822 --> 0:15:41.42 Gigi Kaur Cet argument raisonné-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970? Does this argument square with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus in the early 1970s? 0:15:42.52 --> 0:15:47.502 Hélène Goulet Oui, donc je dirais que oui, je surtout Ben moi. Yes, so I'd say yes, especially Ben me. 0:15:47.512 --> 0:15:56.192 Hélène Goulet Personnellement, je suis devenu extrêmement féministe à ce moment-là, au point où j'en ai été désagréable parfois certaine. Personally, I became extremely feminist at that time, to the point where I was sometimes unpleasant about it. 0:15:57.732 --> 0:16:8.452 Hélène Goulet Hop, tu commences beaucoup à remarquer, Tu sais, dans ma famille, avec chez ma tante, mes cousins qui ne faisaient pas la vaisselle, tu sais, ma cousine qui faisait la vaisselle n'est pas mes cousins. Hop, you're starting to notice a lot, you know, in my family, with my aunt, my cousins who didn't do the dishes, you know, my cousin who did the dishes isn't my cousins. 0:16:8.462 --> 0:16:18.102 Hélène Goulet Tu sais des choses comme ça, je devenue assez, on dirait strident en anglais par rapport à ça. You know things like that, I've become quite, you'd say strident in English about it. 0:16:18.202 --> 0:16:21.12 Hélène Goulet Puis dans mon petit groupe d'amis, il y avait des femmes. Then in my little group of friends, there were women. 0:16:23.752 --> 0:16:25.782 Hélène Goulet Des femmes très féministes aussi. Very feminist women too. 0:16:26.332 --> 0:16:29.342 Hélène Goulet Et puis on a eu beaucoup de conversations. And then we had a lot of conversations. 0:16:29.352 --> 0:16:37.412 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens au sujet de tu sais, la contraception, le rôle des femmes, l'avortement. I remember about you know, contraception, the role of women, abortion. 0:16:37.422 --> 0:16:45.652 Hélène Goulet Si je me souviens qu'on a eu beaucoup de ces conversations-là dans le petit groupe, il y avait, il y avait un homme dans le petit groupe, puis y avait 3 ou 4 femmes. If I remember we had a lot of these conversations in the small group, there was, there was one man in the small group, and then there were 3 or 4 women. 0:16:47.422 --> 0:16:59.452 Hélène Goulet Puis c'est intéressant parce que cet homme-là, je l'ai retrouvé il n’y a pas longtemps parce qu’il est prof, Fredericton à l'université Fredericton, prof de français. And it's interesting because I found this man not long ago because he's a teacher, Fredericton at Fredericton university, a French teacher. 0:17:0.442 --> 0:17:11.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis devenu auteur aussi, puis j'ai lu un texte qu'il avait écrit de fiction, c'est comme ça que je l'ai retrouvé, puis je lui ai, je l'ai, je lui ai écrit à l'université. And then I became an author too, and then I read a piece of fiction he'd written, and that's how I found it, and then I, I, I wrote to him at university. 0:17:11.952 --> 0:17:16.712 Hélène Goulet Frédéric fait que 50 ans plus tard, j'ai retrouvé quelqu'un. Frédéric means that 50 years later, I've found someone again. 0:17:16.722 --> 0:17:24.12 Hélène Goulet C'est le seul que j'ai retrouvé, il y en avait une autre personne qui était végétarienne à l'époque, puis elle aussi elle s'était retrouvée. He's the only one I've found, there was another person who was a vegetarian at the time, then she too had found herself. 0:17:24.22 --> 0:17:27.582 Hélène Goulet Mais finalement, on n'a pas réussi à maintenir une relation. But in the end, we couldn't maintain a relationship. 0:17:29.862 --> 0:17:34.662 Hélène Goulet Mais oui, il y avait beaucoup de conversations, puis on y trouve beaucoup. But yes, there was a lot of conversation, and then there's a lot. 0:17:34.672 --> 0:17:35.812 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, le 2e cercle? You know, the 2nd circle? 0:17:35.822 --> 0:17:42.842 Hélène Goulet Semaine de Beauvoir, oui, il y avait une conscience féministe qui se développait dans la société. Semaine de Beauvoir, yes, there was a feminist consciousness developing in society. 0:17:42.972 --> 0:17:44.282 Hélène Goulet Ouais très fort. Yeah, very strong. 0:17:45.912 --> 0:17:53.122 Gigi Kaur Je note une question suivie, à part ça, vous trouvez qu’il y avait beaucoup de femmes qui étaient plus féministes où c'était? I note a follow-up question, apart from that, do you find that there were many women who were more feminist where that was? 0:17:53.172 --> 0:17:55.472 Gigi Kaur C'était certaines catégories des femmes. They were certain categories of women. 0:17:55.952 --> 0:18:4.522 Hélène Goulet Ben je, je pense que le fait que ces femmes-là étaient d'abord à l'université, c'était déjà un peu exceptionnel. Well, I think the fact that these women were at university in the first place was already a bit exceptional. 0:18:4.532 --> 0:18:12.742 Hélène Goulet Dans le sens c'est vrai qu'il y avait beaucoup de plus en plus de femmes à l'université à l'époque, mais pour quelqu'un comme moi qui venait d'un petit village, c'était un exploit. It's true that more and more women were going to university at the time, but for someone like me from a small village, it was quite a feat. 0:18:13.802 --> 0:18:16.972 Hélène Goulet On n’avait pas d'autres filles dans mon village qui était à l'université. We didn't have any other girls in my village who were at university. 0:18:16.982 --> 0:18:20.912 Hélène Goulet C'était la seule, il y avait eu un garçon avant moi. She was the only one; there had been a boy before me. 0:18:23.122 --> 0:18:35.702 Hélène Goulet Et puis alors ça en soit c'était un signe qu'on avait une certaine ambition d'être autre chose que des femmes au foyer ou des mères de famille, et qu'on avait des ambitions plus grandes. And so that in itself was a sign that we had a certain ambition to be something other than housewives or mothers, and that we had greater ambitions. 0:18:35.712 --> 0:18:46.972 Hélène Goulet C'est plus de de plus d'indépendance dans nos vies et que je pense que la plupart de ces femmes-là, qui étaient l'université probablement, avait un peu la même chose. It's more independence in our lives and I think most of these women, who were probably in university, had a bit of the same thing. 0:18:46.982 --> 0:18:49.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ils n'étaient pas là pour se trouver un mari, pour avoir des bébés. You know, they weren't there to find husbands or have babies. 0:18:50.402 --> 0:18:51.472 Hélène Goulet Ça coûtait cher. It was expensive. 0:18:51.942 --> 0:18:59.502 Hélène Goulet Et puis on travaillait fort, alors tu sais, je pense que le les gens qui étaient là, euh. And then we worked hard, so you know, I think the people who were there, uh. 0:18:59.672 --> 0:19:4.212 Hélène Goulet En général, les femmes qui étaient là devaient être un peu féministe sinon. In general, the women who were there must have been a bit feminist otherwise. 0:19:6.342 --> 0:19:9.322 Hélène Goulet Ce ne serait pas les ongles que ça serait chercher à Marie, tu sais? It wouldn't be the nails that would be looking for Marie, you know? 0:19:11.382 --> 0:19:25.742 Hélène Goulet Les femmes qui ne sont pas liées à l'université, là je ne peux pas vous dire parce que ce n’est pas mon cercle d'amis, mais il y en a beaucoup comme avec des filles avec qui moi je suis allé à l'école secondaire, ce n’était pas des féministes, celles qui se sont mariés en sortant de l'école secondaire. I can't tell you about women who aren't related to university because they're not my circle of friends, but there are a lot of them, like the girls I went to high school with, who weren't feminists, the ones who got married right out of high school. 0:19:26.892 --> 0:19:30.212 Hélène Goulet Euh elles n’étaient pas féminines? Uh, weren't they feminine? 0:19:30.222 --> 0:19:37.672 Hélène Goulet Se sont mariés, ont commencé à avoir des enfants, demeurent à la maison, c'étaient des femmes dans des rôles traditionnels, la plupart aussi. Got married, started having children, stayed at home, were women in traditional roles, most of them too. 0:19:37.682 --> 0:19:53.472 Hélène Goulet Elles travaillaient, c'était dans des postes non professionnels parce qu'elles avaient un diplôme d'études secondaires seulement, mais moi, j'ai perdu contact avec ces gens-là, quoi que à l'époque, c'était mes amis, puis je j'ai joué de l'orgue à toute leur mariage. They worked in non-professional jobs because they only had a high school diploma, but I lost touch with these people, even though they were my friends at the time, and I played the organ at all their weddings. 0:19:53.892 --> 0:20:6.842 Hélène Goulet C'est moi qui c'est moi qui a joué la musique à tout le mariage, mais je me souviens de de jouer pour le mariage puis de penser merci mon Dieu, ce n’est pas moi. I'm the one who played the music at the wedding, but I remember playing for the wedding and then thinking thank God it wasn't me. 0:20:8.92 --> 0:20:10.32 Hélène Goulet Merci mon Dieu que ce n’est pas moi. Thank God it's not me. 0:20:12.162 --> 0:20:17.762 Hélène Goulet Parce que au bout de la première année, j'ai quitté le copain que j'avais que j'avais eu pendant mon école secondaire. Because after the first year, I left the boyfriend I'd had in high school. 0:20:17.772 --> 0:20:22.362 Hélène Goulet Je l'ai quitté au bout d'un an, puis là, Ben ma vie a changé complètement, c'est ça? I left him after a year, and then Ben completely changed my life, didn't he? 0:20:22.922 --> 0:20:34.412 Gigi Kaur OK, parlons des relations intimes, je sais que vous allez droit de départ répondre, mais après l'université, est ce que vous avez vous trouvé dans un rôle quand même? OK, let's talk about intimate relationships, I know you're going to start answering, but after university, did you find yourself in a role anyway? 0:20:34.422 --> 0:20:40.142 Gigi Kaur Traductionnel d'avoir des enfants la famille, vous avez fait je vraiment focusser sur mon courriel et tout. Translation of having kids the family, you made me really focus on my email and everything. 0:20:40.822 --> 0:21:3.152 Hélène Goulet Bah j'ai je me suis mariée à 20 6h et j'ai eu mon premier enfant à 30 ans et puis je avant 20 6h J'ai fini l'université, j'avais 21 ans, j'ai commencé à travailler enseigner à l'école secondaire à 21 ans, qui était très jeune. Well, I got married at 20 6 and had my first child at 30 and then I finished university, I was 21, I started working as a high school teacher at 21, which was very young. 0:21:5.452 --> 0:21:21.602 Hélène Goulet Parce que j'ai fondamentalement fait 5 ans d'études en 4h parce qu'en étudiant l'été aussi, j'ai comprimer mes 5 années d'études en 4 ans, que j'ai commencé à enseigner à 21 ans à l'école secondaire, que j'étais vraiment dans la vraie vie. Because I basically did 5 years of study in 4 hours, because by studying in the summer too, I compressed my 5 years of study into 4 years, that I started teaching at 21 in high school, that I was really in the real world. 0:21:21.612 --> 0:21:22.972 Hélène Goulet Là, c'est vraiment. This is the real thing. 0:21:25.182 --> 0:21:29.732 Hélène Goulet Projeter dans la vraie vie puis c'est dans une ville nouvelle ville aussi. Project in real life then it's in a new city too. 0:21:30.62 --> 0:21:35.252 Hélène Goulet Euh alors ça, ça m'a, je suis vraiment devenue une adulte. Well, that really made me an adult. 0:21:35.262 --> 0:21:39.422 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais, j'ai été 5 ans J’habitais seule pendant 5h avant de me marier. You know, I lived alone for 5 years before getting married. 0:21:40.632 --> 0:21:47.452 Hélène Goulet Je n’habitais pas dans la même ville que mon copain que j'ai rencontré à 21 ans, euh. I didn't live in the same town as my boyfriend who I met when I was 21. 0:21:49.402 --> 0:21:54.122 Hélène Goulet On n’habitait pas dans la même ville que j'ai eu une vie quand même très indépendante pendant 5 ans. We didn't live in the same town, and I had a very independent life for 5 years. 0:21:55.42 --> 0:22:3.72 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, après que je me suis mariée, je suis, j'ai travaillé encore 2 ans, puis tu retournes à l'école. Then, after I got married, I worked for another 2 years, and then you go back to school. 0:22:3.332 --> 0:22:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'avais commencé mon MBE à temps partiel pendant que je travaillais, puis j'ai travaillé. I had started my MBE part-time while I was working, and then I went to work. 0:22:10.222 --> 0:22:16.782 Hélène Goulet Bon 5h avant de me marier, puis je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler, fait que j'ai, j'ai toujours travaillé. Well, 5 hours before I got married, and then I never stopped working, because I've always worked. 0:22:16.792 --> 0:22:18.102 Hélène Goulet Sauf que je suis retourné à l'école. Except I went back to school. 0:22:19.672 --> 0:22:23.172 Hélène Goulet Alors, 28 ans, 20 9h. So, 28 years, 20 9h. 0:22:24.442 --> 0:22:27.232 Hélène Goulet J'ai travaillé 2 ans après que j'ai été mariée. I worked 2 years after I was married. 0:22:27.642 --> 0:22:29.502 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, je suis retournée faire mon droit. Then I went back to law school. 0:22:31.582 --> 0:22:38.732 Hélène Goulet Mais j'avais commencé mon MBE pendant que je travaillais, donc 21 et 26. But I had started my MBE while I was working, so 21 and 26. 0:22:39.112 --> 0:22:42.642 Hélène Goulet Le temps partiel et puis j'ai terminé, j'ai fait les 2 en même temps. Part-time and then I finished, I did the 2 at the same time. 0:22:42.652 --> 0:22:47.392 Hélène Goulet J'ai terminé en même temps les 2, le MB à et le diplôme de droit Commonwealth. I completed both the MB at and the Commonwealth Law Diploma at the same time. 0:22:48.182 --> 0:22:55.132 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis là j'étais enceinte en 2e année de droit, qui est enceinte? Uh, I was pregnant in my 2nd year of law school, who's pregnant? 0:22:55.222 --> 0:22:55.982 Hélène Goulet Pas dans mon barreau. Not in my bar association. 0:22:57.972 --> 0:23:9.682 Hélène Goulet Et puis les 2 derniers, j'ai eu 4 enfants, puis les 2 derniers, j'étais, j'étais employé au gouvernement fédéral quand j'ai eu les 2 derniers enfants que j'en ai eu 4 en moins de 6h. And then the last 2, I had 4 children, then the last 2, I was, I was employed by the federal government when I had the last 2 children that I had 4 in less than 6 hours. 0:23:11.572 --> 0:23:13.282 Hélène Goulet Mais je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler. But I never stopped working. 0:23:13.322 --> 0:23:15.732 Hélène Goulet Ce soit à l'école ou au travail ou l'autre? Either at school or at work or the other? 0:23:15.742 --> 0:23:20.182 Hélène Goulet J'ai, je n’ai jamais été femme au foyer, tu sais, je suis restée à la maison 4 mois après chaque bébé. I've, I've never been a housewife, you know, I stayed at home 4 months after each baby. 0:23:21.822 --> 0:23:23.352 Hélène Goulet 5 mois après le dernier. 5 months after the last one. 0:23:24.502 --> 0:23:28.582 Hélène Goulet Mais autrement, j'ai toujours été dans le pain principal dans ma famille, à partir de. But otherwise, I've always been into the main bread in my family, from. 0:23:31.452 --> 0:23:40.812 Hélène Goulet À partir du moment où je suis allée travailler au ministère de la Justice, j'ai été le gagne-pain principal dans ma famille, toute ma vie, toute ma vie. Hey. From the moment I went to work for the Justice Department, I've been the main breadwinner in my family, all my life, all my life. Hey. 0:23:39.792 --> 0:23:41.832 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très fascinant. OK I find that very fascinating. 0:23:43.262 --> 0:23:47.322 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est vrai que j'ai combiné les 2, ça a été très difficile par moment hein? Yeah, it's true that I've combined the 2, it's been very difficult at times, hasn't it? 0:23:48.922 --> 0:23:52.512 Hélène Goulet Très difficile par moment, mais j'ai aucun regret par rapport à ça. Very difficult at times, but I have no regrets about that. 0:23:53.312 --> 0:23:55.52 Gigi Kaur Tant que vous êtes content, c'est ça qui compte. As long as you're happy, that's what counts. 0:23:55.502 --> 0:24:2.352 Hélène Goulet Voilà, c'est ça, mais j'ai quitté mon conjoint au bout de 30 ans, puis là, j'ai toute une nouvelle vie depuis 13 ans, ça fait que. That's it, but I left my partner after 30 years, and now I've had a whole new life for 13 years. 0:24:3.752 --> 0:24:5.692 Gigi Kaur Et alors? So what? 0:24:5.702 --> 0:24:19.162 Gigi Kaur J'ai une dernière question suivie, à part de cette sujette dans les années 1970, il y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'université d'Ottawa ou les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins acceptées? I have one last follow-up question: aside from this topic in the 1970s, were there any programs, departments, or clubs at the University of Ottawa where women were less present or less accepted? 0:24:19.762 --> 0:24:24.402 Hélène Goulet Oui, je pense que à génie en particulier, il y avait beaucoup de. Yes, I think in engineering in particular, there were a lot of. 0:24:26.232 --> 0:24:36.442 Hélène Goulet Euh, prêt, j'ai des stéréotypes de stéréotypes par rapport aux femmes dans des en sciences ou en mathématiques, ou en génie ou pas. Uh, ready, I have stereotypes about women in science or math, or engineering or not. 0:24:36.532 --> 0:24:38.432 Hélène Goulet Probablement même en médecine. Probably even in medicine. 0:24:38.442 --> 0:24:45.842 Hélène Goulet Mais ça, je suis moins au courant, mais on entendait souvent parler de des problèmes que les femmes avaient dans certaines facultés. I don't know about that, but we often heard about the problems women had in certain faculties. 0:24:46.172 --> 0:24:57.682 Hélène Goulet En droit, il y avait beaucoup de femmes quand quand, moi je suis retournée faire mon droit en 1982, il y avait beaucoup de femmes, ça fait qu’il n’y avait pas ces préjugés-là. In law, there were a lot of women when I went back to law school in 1982, there were a lot of women, so there wasn't that prejudice. 0:24:57.722 --> 0:25:0.692 Hélène Goulet Autant, en tout cas pas que moi j'ai pu voir. At least not as many as I've seen. 0:25:1.182 --> 0:25:8.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, moi j'étais plus âgée aussi que la plupart des étudiants en droit parce que j'étais presque une autre génération. J'avais. Uh, I was older than most law students, too, because I was almost a different generation. I was. 0:25:10.412 --> 0:25:12.332 Hélène Goulet Grâce à dieu, je peux passer mon droit. Thanks to God, I can pass my law exam. 0:25:12.342 --> 0:25:29.802 Hélène Goulet J'avais 20, 9h20, 9h alors que la plupart des étudiants en droit avaient 22 parce qu'il fait un bac, il venait de tenir leur premier bac où il y avait fait juste 2 ans d'un bac, alors que moi j'avais, je vais déjà l'équivalent de 5 années de d'études universitaires. I was 20, 9h20, 9h whereas most law students were 22 because they'd just had their first baccalaureate where they'd done just 2 years of a baccalaureate, whereas I'd already had the equivalent of 5 years of university studies. 0:25:29.802 --> 0:25:30.902 Hélène Goulet J'avais l'équivalent de. I had the equivalent of. 0:25:32.702 --> 0:25:39.432 Hélène Goulet SATA dans le monde du travail fait que c'était une ça que j'étais comme une autre génération. SATA in the world of work meant that I was like another generation. 0:25:39.742 --> 0:25:43.172 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai commencé à avoir mes enfants pendant cette période. Then I started having my children during this period. 0:25:43.182 --> 0:25:48.152 Hélène Goulet Là aussi que j'étais vraiment encore là, tu sais, la vie sociale, pour moi, elle n'existait pas. I was still really there, you know, social life didn't exist for me. 0:25:48.162 --> 0:25:53.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était les l'école, je retournais à étudier chez nous, j'allais à la bibliothèque. You know, it was back to school, back to studying at home, back to the library. 0:25:53.382 --> 0:25:57.982 Hélène Goulet Il fallait que je trouve quelque chose, puis sociale existe pas. I had to find something, then society doesn't exist. 0:25:58.572 --> 0:26:0.222 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était vraiment ouais. You know, it was really yeah. 0:26:1.32 --> 0:26:2.862 Hélène Goulet Voilà la famille, la famille, ouais. That's family, family, yeah. 0:26:4.132 --> 0:26:16.642 Gigi Kaur Parlons que vous étiez en droit après un certain âge, avec des, des jeunes femmes, ce que vous avez fait des connexions, des relations avec eux, ce qu'ils ont envoyé, comme la grande sœur. Let's talk about you were in law after a certain age, with des, young women, what you did connections, relationships with them, what they sent, like big sister. 0:26:17.492 --> 0:26:28.332 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, je me suis fait quelques très bonnes amies, des hommes aussi d'ailleurs, y avait beaucoup de gens qui venaient du Nord de l'Ontario qui faisaient leur droit français à l'université d'Ottawa. No, I made some very good friends, men too, in fact, there were a lot of people from Northern Ontario who were studying French law at the University of Ottawa. 0:26:28.702 --> 0:26:38.572 Hélène Goulet Euh, je suis devenue très amie avec une jeune femme qui qui avait 7 ans de moins que moi et qui, devenu juge, elle vient juste de prendre sa retraite. Uh, I've become very good friends with a young woman who was 7 years younger than me and who, having become a judge, has just retired. 0:26:38.582 --> 0:26:43.892 Hélène Goulet Le livre revue après plusieurs années, je l'ai revu en décembre dernier. The book was reviewed after several years, I saw it again last December. 0:26:43.902 --> 0:26:45.342 Hélène Goulet On aurait connecté. We would have connected. 0:26:47.532 --> 0:26:48.842 Hélène Goulet Et puis, qui dort? And then, who sleeps? 0:26:48.852 --> 0:26:55.192 Hélène Goulet Il y a une autre personne que j'ai avec qui j'ai gardé contact aussi, euh. There's another person I've kept in touch with too, um. 0:26:55.402 --> 0:26:57.112 Hélène Goulet Jusqu'à maintenant, on se voit encore. So far, we're still seeing each other. 0:26:58.652 --> 0:27:5.502 Hélène Goulet Les autres, je les ai revus à l'occasion dans des événements et tout, mais ma vie a été quand même très occupée. The others I saw occasionally at events and so on, but my life was still very busy. 0:27:5.522 --> 0:27:8.512 Hélène Goulet Puis, avec le temps, évidemment, j'ai développé d'autres intérêts. Then, over time, of course, I developed other interests. 0:27:8.942 --> 0:27:18.322 Hélène Goulet J'ai rencontré d'autres personnes, j'ai un autre cercle d'amis maintenant parce que ça fait tellement d'années que je ne travaille pas comme avocate, que j'ai un peu perdu ce groupe. I've met other people, I have another circle of friends now because it's been so many years since I worked as a lawyer, that I've kind of lost that group. 0:27:18.332 --> 0:27:20.152 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais ouais. Now you know. 0:27:19.342 --> 0:27:24.342 Gigi Kaur Et oui, j'ai vu votre biographie, c'est, je trouve ça très intéressant. And yes, I've seen your biography, it's, I find it very interesting. 0:27:24.732 --> 0:27:24.992 Gigi Kaur Vous avez travaillé pour sa santé Canada, allez travailler pour le doigt, vous allez travailler comme n'importe où. You've worked for his health Canada, go to work for the finger, you'll work like anywhere else. 0:27:37.262 --> 0:27:37.912 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est ça. Yes, that's it. 0:27:31.342 --> 0:27:40.722 Gigi Kaur Ça, ça se montre que vous êtes très flexible à travailler partout, mais vous avez plusieurs intérêts, fait que vous n’êtes pas quelqu'un qui qui aime rester sur une place, je pense. This shows that you're very flexible to work anywhere, but you have many interests, so you're not someone who likes to stay in one place, I think. 0:27:40.292 --> 0:27:41.372 Hélène Goulet Non pas du tout. Not at all. 0:27:41.382 --> 0:27:47.582 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai, je suis un, je suis un, vraiment quelqu'un qui, Life long, learner tout. Then I, I'm a, I'm a, really someone who, Life long, learner everything. 0:27:47.622 --> 0:27:56.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai continué à étudier, je suis retournée à l'université en 2015, j'ai fait un diplôme en théologie contemplative. I continued to study, I went back to university in 2015, I did a degree in contemplative theology. 0:27:56.942 --> 0:28:8.62 Hélène Goulet Ma vie a vraiment, il y a eu un.de bascule causée par plusieurs traumatismes qui sont arrivés en même temps. My life has really, there was a tipping point caused by several traumas that happened at the same time. 0:28:8.872 --> 0:28:11.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis effet que ma vie a complètement basculé. And then my life completely turned upside down. 0:28:11.972 --> 0:28:16.302 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis rebâtie et je me suis complètement rebâtie. And then I rebuilt myself and rebuilt myself completely. 0:28:16.312 --> 0:28:17.22 Hélène Goulet Une vie. One life. 0:28:17.572 --> 0:28:21.82 Hélène Goulet Puis maintenant, je suis très impliquée comme bénévole. And now I'm very, very, very involved as a volunteer. 0:28:23.402 --> 0:28:38.132 Hélène Goulet Mais j'utilise toutes mes compétences de de gestion, d'administration, de police et de toutes les compétences que j'ai acquises dans le monde du travail me servent maintenant dans mon bénévolat. But I'm using all my management, administrative and police skills, and all the skills I've acquired in the working world, to help me in my voluntary work. 0:28:38.142 --> 0:28:42.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais peut-être, à une échelle moins grande, mais quand même? Euh. You know, maybe on a smaller scale, but still? Uh-huh. 0:28:42.832 --> 0:28:45.292 Hélène Goulet Alors c'est ça, ma vie est complètement différente. So that's it, my life is completely different. 0:28:45.302 --> 0:28:50.642 Hélène Goulet Puis depuis ma j'ai pris ma retraite en 2012. Then I retired en 2012. 0:28:53.542 --> 0:28:59.862 Hélène Goulet Même juste ma santé, juste m'occuper de ma santé, c'est quelque chose qui est pour moi, qui a été relativement nouveau. Even just my health, just looking after my health, that's something that's relatively new to me. 0:28:59.872 --> 0:29:2.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, mais maintenant je suis comme très disciplinée. You know, but now I’m very disciplined. 0:29:2.972 --> 0:29:4.912 Hélène Goulet C'est toujours été très disciplinée. She's always been very disciplined. 0:29:4.922 --> 0:29:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'ai toujours cru à short. I've always believed in short. 0:29:8.322 --> 0:29:11.962 Hélène Goulet Pain for long-term Game, c'est ça toujours été ma philosophie de vie. Pain for long-term Game has always been my philosophy. 0:29:11.972 --> 0:29:14.712 Hélène Goulet Ben, mes parents étaient comme ça, tu sais, c'est. Well, my parents were like that, you know, that's it. 0:29:14.722 --> 0:29:17.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai grandi comme ça, j'ai grandi comme ça. I grew up like that, I grew up like that. 0:29:17.442 --> 0:29:18.962 Hélène Goulet Mes parents travaillaient très fort. My parents worked very hard. 0:29:20.932 --> 0:29:25.262 Hélène Goulet Puis on a eu des, des chocs dans la famille, fait que je n’étais pas. Then we had some, some shocks in the family, which meant that I was not. 0:29:25.552 --> 0:29:26.852 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas une enfant gâtée. I wasn't a spoiled brat. 0:29:26.862 --> 0:29:31.292 Hélène Goulet Là, ça, l'aîné de ma famille aussi, alors je ne sais pas gâter. Here, this, the eldest in my family too, so I don't know if I'm spoiled. 0:29:31.302 --> 0:29:35.452 Hélène Goulet J'étais très, très responsable, trop responsable, trop responsable. I was very, very responsible, too responsible, too responsible. 0:29:35.692 --> 0:29:38.272 Hélène Goulet C'est encore vrai, d'ailleurs moins pire qu'avant. It's still true, and not as bad as before. 0:29:43.352 --> 0:29:46.822 Gigi Kaur Parce que je suis toujours dans la même situation aussi, mais ce n’est pas l'entrevue de moi. Because I'm always in the same situation too, but it's not my interview. 0:29:46.832 --> 0:29:50.32 Gigi Kaur Je voulais juste vous comprendre à vous, comment vous vous avez grandi. I just wanted to understand you, how you grew up. 0:29:49.92 --> 0:29:52.342 Hélène Goulet Est-ce que vous êtes une, est-ce que tu es une année de famille aussi? Are you one, are you a family year too? 0:29:53.42 --> 0:29:55.792 Gigi Kaur L'aîné, oui, j'avais une famille comme difficile. The eldest, yes, I had a difficult family. 0:29:55.802 --> 0:30:0.642 Gigi Kaur Ma mère est monoparentale, mon père était quelque chose, quelqu'un d'intéressant. My mother is a single parent, my father was something, someone interesting. 0:30:1.292 --> 0:30:13.732 Gigi Kaur Quand je dis intéressant, ce n’est pas un bon truc, j'ai une sœur quand même qu'il y a les problèmes de santé comme elle est aveugle, les muettes elle a autisme et tout fait qu'il fallait que je. When I say interesting, it's not a good thing, I have a sister anyway that there are the health problems as she is blind, mute she has autism and everything that I had to. 0:30:13.782 --> 0:30:17.502 Gigi Kaur J'ai gardé mes responsabilités, puis grandir un peu plus vite que les autres. I kept my responsibilities, then grew up a little faster than the others. 0:30:17.912 --> 0:30:19.522 Hélène Goulet Ouais ça exactement. Yeah, that's right. 0:30:19.532 --> 0:30:22.832 Hélène Goulet Ouais je comprends, je comprends, je ne ça qui est sourde aussi. Yeah, I get it, I get it, I don't know who's deaf too. 0:30:24.62 --> 0:30:26.582 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça qui est sourde, ma sœur aussi. Yeah, that's who's deaf, my sister too. 0:30:26.592 --> 0:30:27.982 Hélène Goulet Ça, ça a été un autre Matisse. That was another Matisse. 0:30:27.992 --> 0:30:33.852 Hélène Goulet Dans la famille aussi parce qu'elle a dû quitter le village pour aller à l'école, alors ça a été difficile pour mes parents. Ouais. In the family too because she had to leave the village to go to school, so it was difficult for my parents. Yeah, it was. 0:30:34.222 --> 0:30:38.392 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez, comment dire ça, ce que vous avez pris, la langue de singe? Do you have, how do I put this, what you've got, monkey tongue? 0:30:38.932 --> 0:30:41.382 Hélène Goulet Je connais le la langue des signes du Québec. I know Quebec sign language. 0:30:43.532 --> 0:30:50.922 Hélène Goulet Mais à un niveau que je ne considère pas acceptable, mais je connais l'alphabet, les chiffres. But at a level I don't consider acceptable, but I know the alphabet, the numbers. 0:30:50.932 --> 0:31:1.62 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec ma sœur, on s'est développé un système d’où on se comprend quand on se parle, mais je ne suis pas très mon intelligence kinésique. And then with my sister, we've developed a system where we understand each other when we talk, but I'm not very kinetically intelligent. 0:31:2.662 --> 0:31:6.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, score n’est pas très forte, alors j'oublie facilement. Uh, score's not very strong, so I forget easily. 0:31:6.652 --> 0:31:16.402 Hélène Goulet Puis, comme elle travaille bon, on se voit, on se voit moins, on ne se voit pas chaque jour, c'est que c'est plus difficile de conserver le l'acquis, mais maintenant il y a un APP. Then, since she works well, we see each other less, we don't see each other every day, so it's harder to maintain what we've acquired, but now there's an APP. 0:31:19.72 --> 0:31:21.342 Hélène Goulet Avant, j'avais commencé en ligne des cours aussi. Before that, I had started online courses too. 0:31:21.352 --> 0:31:32.762 Hélène Goulet Là elle excuse, j'en ai suivi en personne aussi que j'ai fait certains efforts au fil des ans puis mais j'étais un peu comme la 2e mère de ma sœur parce qu'on avait 9 ans de différence. She's sorry, but I've made some effort over the years, and I was a bit like my sister's 2nd mother because we were 9 years apart. 0:31:33.932 --> 0:31:39.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que j'ai, j'ai eu un rôle important dans la vie de ma sœur. And that's why I played such an important role in my sister's life. 0:31:40.362 --> 0:31:51.972 Gigi Kaur Le Okay je vois clairement que la famille est vraiment importante pour vous depuis très jeune, même avant l'université et cetera fait que ça c'est très, c'est comment dire ça. Okay, I can clearly see that family is really important to you from a very young age, even before university and so on, so that's very, that's how you say it. 0:31:51.982 --> 0:32:9.932 Gigi Kaur C'est très adorable que cette valeur existe toujours parce que les temps ont clairement changé maintenant, mais à propos de on va aller à l'université de toi parce que Ouais, parce que quand même je n’ai pas vraiment votre background, je trouve. It's very adorable that this value still exists because times have clearly changed now, but about we're going to go to college from you because yeah, because still I don't really have your background, I find. 0:32:9.942 --> 0:32:13.832 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes quelqu'un de très responsable, prématurés et très adorable quand même. You're a very responsible, premature, and very adorable person. 0:32:16.272 --> 0:32:18.462 Gigi Kaur Fait, je vais aller sur la prochaine question. Done, I'll go on to the next question. 0:32:19.862 --> 0:32:34.792 Gigi Kaur Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur qu'ils appellent la révolution de contre-culture, c'est à dire que votre génération, c'est relié contre les valeurs de de la génération de vos parents, même chose qui arrive aujourd'hui aussi avec pas grand-chose qui a changé. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counter-culture revolution, meaning that your generation is bound up against the values of your parents' generation, the same thing that's happening today too, with not much that's changed. 0:32:35.192 --> 0:32:38.482 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social? To what extent do the members of your social circle? 0:32:38.492 --> 0:32:45.792 Gigi Kaur Concernent concernent ils qu'il devait se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? Are they concerned about mobilizing for a fairer society and a better world? 0:32:48.42 --> 0:32:50.122 Hélène Goulet Plus juste, c'est un monde meilleur. A fairer world means a better world. 0:32:51.592 --> 0:32:52.312 Hélène Goulet Je pense que. I think. 0:32:53.882 --> 0:32:58.202 Hélène Goulet Euh, je pense le cercle de littérature avec dans lequel j'opérais. Uh, I think the circle of literature I was operating with. 0:32:59.742 --> 0:33:17.472 Hélène Goulet Était plus, euh au niveau des idées, c'était vraiment au niveau de tu sais le rôle des femmes, la libération, y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires, pas moi, mais y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires. It was more, uh, in terms of ideas, it was really in terms of you know the role of women, liberation, there were some who had multiple partners, not me, but there were some who had multiple partners. 0:33:17.952 --> 0:33:23.212 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une sorte de révolte, mais c'était. There was a kind of revolt, but it was. 0:33:25.732 --> 0:33:26.502 Hélène Goulet Comment dire? What can I say? 0:33:26.512 --> 0:33:28.72 Hélène Goulet C'était vraiment plus haut niveau. It really wasn't up to scratch. 0:33:32.362 --> 0:33:40.772 Hélène Goulet Des fois, des fois, moi ça ne me choquait pas, pas fâché, mais un peu un choc parce que moi je voulais de mon petit village, on venait juste de passer au feu. Sometimes, sometimes, I wasn't shocked, not angry, but a little shocked because I wanted to be from my little village, we'd just gone through the fire. 0:33:40.782 --> 0:33:43.152 Hélène Goulet Je n’avais pas beaucoup d'argent, il fallait que je travaille. I didn't have much money, so I had to work. 0:33:43.872 --> 0:33:48.732 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ma vie était quand même très réglée mais y a de ces gens-là. You know, my life was very regulated, but there are people like that. 0:33:48.772 --> 0:33:58.252 Hélène Goulet Altération, heure qui venaient de famille beaucoup plus à l'aise que moi, qui vivait à la maison, alors ça ne leur coûtait rien, n’y avait pas de loyer à payer, il y avait tu sais? Alteration, time that came from a family much more comfortable than me, who lived at home, so it cost them nothing, there was no rent to pay, there was you know? 0:33:58.262 --> 0:34:7.202 Hélène Goulet Bon, c'était la vie était facile pour eux et y en avait une que son père était président de du musée des beaux-arts. Well, life was easy for them, and one of them was her father, president of the Musée des Beaux-Arts. 0:34:7.212 --> 0:34:8.212 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, bon, c'était. You know, well, it was. 0:34:10.862 --> 0:34:31.292 Hélène Goulet Y en a qui étaient pauvres, y en a qui qui étaient comme moi, qui fallait que je travaille, puis qui payent leurs affaires, puis tout ça, il y en a qui étaient en couple, qui vivait avec un homme, euh, fait qu'il y avait une variété, mais il y avait une sorte stop-loss sphère peu irréaliste par rapport à la vie. Some were poor, some were like me, I had to work, then pay for my things and all that, some were in a couple, living with a man, um, so there was variety, but there was a kind of stop-loss sphere that was a little unrealistic in terms of life. 0:34:31.892 --> 0:34:36.172 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, une sorte de manque de responsabilité, tu sais, y avait. You know, a kind of lack of responsibility, you know, there was. 0:34:38.42 --> 0:34:41.2 Hélène Goulet Une sorte de de de de désabusés comme. A sort of de de de de disillusioned like. 0:34:44.432 --> 0:34:46.962 Hélène Goulet C'est comme s'il trouvait que la vie ne valait pas la peine d'être vécue. It's as if he didn't think life was worth living. 0:34:48.72 --> 0:35:0.202 Hélène Goulet Il y avait comme une sorte de mentalité un peu, c'est certaines personnes pas tout le monde, mais à literature, c'était beaucoup dilettante, tu sais dilettante, genre. There was a kind of mentality that was a bit, it's some people not everybody, but at literature, it was a lot of dilettante, you know dilettante, like. 0:35:2.102 --> 0:35:3.42 Hélène Goulet C'était à Paris. It was in Paris. 0:35:3.52 --> 0:35:12.102 Hélène Goulet Il serait assis dans un café qui aurait parlé d'idées, puis de toutes sortes d'affaires, mais il n’y aurait pas, et ce n’était pas comme la vraie vie. He'd be sitting in a café talking about ideas, then all sorts of business, but there wouldn't be, and it wasn't like real life. 0:35:12.172 --> 0:35:19.492 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’était pas vraiment comme la vraie vie, je ne sais pas trop comment l'expliquer, mais je ressentais très fortement à l'époque. You know, it wasn't really like real life, I don't really know how to explain it, but I felt very strongly at the time. 0:35:20.12 --> 0:35:34.832 Gigi Kaur Le fait que si je comprends bien, vous dites que dans le groupe de de littérature, c'était plus les idées qui parlaient, c'était plus des gens qui communiquaient, mais au lieu de faire des actions, puis même les communications ont été defois, irréalistes. The fact that if I understand correctly, you're saying that in the literature group, it was more the ideas that spoke, it was more the people who communicated, but instead of taking action, even the communications were sometimes unrealistic. 0:35:35.482 --> 0:35:43.132 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça, alors que pour moi quand j'étais adolescente, dans mon village, j'étais très engagée dans la Communauté. Yeah right, whereas for me when I was a teenager, in my village, I was very involved in the Community. 0:35:43.582 --> 0:35:46.172 Hélène Goulet Mais parents l'étaient, et moi je l'étais aussi. But my parents were, and I was too. 0:35:46.182 --> 0:35:51.222 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, n’y avait rien dans mon village, il n’y avait rien, rien pour distraire les jeunes. I started a youth club, there was nothing in my village, there was nothing, nothing to entertain young people. 0:35:52.52 --> 0:35:59.682 Hélène Goulet Euh Ben j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, j'organisais des danses surveillées par les parents, des concerts. Well, I started a youth club, organizing dances supervised by parents and concerts. 0:35:59.692 --> 0:36:4.472 Hélène Goulet J'ai organisé toutes sortes d'affaires, des orchestres qui venaient pour jouer pour nous, vous pouvez danser. I've organized all kinds of affairs, orchestras coming to play for us, you can dance. 0:36:6.232 --> 0:36:12.622 Hélène Goulet J'ai vraiment été très engagé mais quand je suis arrivée à Ottawa, Ben là, il fallait que je travaille, fallait que j'aille à l'école. I was really committed, but when I arrived in Ottawa, Ben, I had to work, I had to go to school. 0:36:12.632 --> 0:36:18.422 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je n’ai pas fait beaucoup de choses en action sociale moi-même pendant que j'étais à l'université. You know, I didn't do much social work myself while I was at university. 0:36:20.282 --> 0:36:27.932 Hélène Goulet C'est venu, c'est revenu plus tard dans ma vie quand ça avec les enfants aussi, évidemment, c'est m'appliquer à l'école. It came, it came back later in my life when that with the kids too, obviously, it's applied to me at school. 0:36:27.942 --> 0:36:29.62 Hélène Goulet M'appliquer tu sais? Apply myself, you know? 0:36:29.72 --> 0:36:38.272 Hélène Goulet J'ai suivi de mes enfants comme ça, puis après, évidemment, maintenant je suis très engagée dans un dans un en bénévolat. Then, of course, I'm now very, very, very involved in volunteer work. 0:36:38.282 --> 0:36:43.182 Hélène Goulet C'est ça qui m'ont que je fais au moins un débutant, mais au moins débutant. That's why I'm at least a beginner, but at least a beginner. 0:36:58.162 --> 0:36:58.882 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:36:44.322 --> 0:36:59.902 Gigi Kaur Et vous dites que quand vous étiez à l'université d'Ottawa, vous êtes tellement occupé à travailler, à survivre, à gérer tout, à être responsable que vous n’avez pas eu le temps d'être très social dans la Communauté, mais ça, c'est venu dans les périodes fait qu'avec vos enfants, puis après plus tard. And you say that when you were at the University of Ottawa, you were so busy working, surviving, managing everything, being responsible that you didn't have the time to be very social in the Community, but that came in the periods done with your children, then later on. 0:37:0.322 --> 0:37:4.482 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça avant, avant l'université, puis après. Yeah, that's before, before college, then after. 0:37:4.552 --> 0:37:8.512 Hélène Goulet Après que les enfants sont nés aussi, je me suis impliquée dans certaines choses. After the children were born too, I got involved in a few things. 0:37:8.722 --> 0:37:14.942 Hélène Goulet Puis, après que les enfants ont été grands, Ben là, ma vie a complètement changé en termes de dans quoi je m'explique ça? Ouais. Then, after the kids were grown up, well, my life changed completely in terms of how do I explain this? Yeah. 0:37:14.912 --> 0:37:17.582 Gigi Kaur OK c'est OK, c'est compréhensible. Okay, that's understandable. 0:37:18.92 --> 0:37:22.12 Gigi Kaur Alors le prof, je vais faire un petit suivi dans ça? So, teacher, I'm going to do a little follow-up on this? 0:37:22.382 --> 0:37:29.962 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure va génération, pensait-elle, que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées? To what extent did your generation feel that your parents' notions of gender, family and relationships were outdated? 0:37:30.332 --> 0:37:36.102 Gigi Kaur Je pense que vous êtes déjà répondu, mais je voulais savoir plus sur ce sujet, si ça ne vous dérange pas. I think you've already answered, but I wanted to know more about this subject, if you don't mind. 0:37:36.422 --> 0:37:37.452 Hélène Goulet Oui, non, ça va. Yes, no, I'm fine. 0:37:37.762 --> 0:37:54.792 Hélène Goulet Euh oui, il y avait, il y avait cette ce sens que nos familles, nos parents étaient traditionnelles comme je n’aurais pas pu amener un homme, un jeune homme chez mes parents, puis dormir dans la même Chambre, ça aurait été impensable, même après que j'ai rencontré mon mari pendant 5 ans. Uh yes, there was, there was this sense that our families, our parents were traditional like I wouldn't have been able to bring a man, a young man to my parents, and then sleep in the same room, that would have been unthinkable, even after I'd met my husband for 5 years. 0:37:54.802 --> 0:37:58.862 Hélène Goulet On s'est vu pendant 5 ans, puis il n’y a jamais dormi dans la même chambre que moi chez mes parents. We saw each other for 5 years, then he never slept in the same room as me at my parents' house. 0:37:59.902 --> 0:38:7.142 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai un peu ouvert la voie pour le reste de la famille, toujours comme ça, les aînés ouvrent la voie pour le reste de la famille. But I kind of paved the way for the rest of the family, always like that, the elders pave the way for the rest of the family. 0:38:7.412 --> 0:38:10.112 Hélène Goulet Avec le temps, les mentalités ont changé aussi. Over time, attitudes have changed too. 0:38:10.122 --> 0:38:22.402 Hélène Goulet Mes parents pensaient plus de la même façon non plus, mais je me souviens que ma mère m'avait dit, quand j'ai commencé à enseigner que J’Habitais dans mon propre appartement dans une autre ville, puis elle m'avait dit. My parents didn't think the same way either, but I remember my mother telling me when I started teaching that I lived in my own apartment in another city. 0:38:23.942 --> 0:38:33.452 Hélène Goulet J'espère que tu ne feras rien pour faire honte à ton père, puis là je suis parti à rire, puis je lui ai dit cette conversation-là est arrivé 5 ans trop tard. I hope you won't do anything to shame your father, then I started laughing, then I told him this conversation came 5 years too late. 0:38:40.142 --> 0:38:44.882 Hélène Goulet Mais ma mère n’était pas extrêmement traditionnelle, mais quand même, c'est produit. But my mother wasn't extremely traditional, but still, it's produced. 0:38:44.892 --> 0:38:45.972 Hélène Goulet Sa génération. His generation. 0:38:46.522 --> 0:38:49.332 Hélène Goulet Euh même chose pour la contraception. The same goes for contraception. 0:38:49.342 --> 0:38:57.422 Hélène Goulet Mes parents ont beaucoup souffert de parce qu'il était catholique Romain qu’il n’avait pas le droit d'utiliser la contraception, ma mère a failli mourir à cause de ça. My parents suffered a lot because he was a Roman Catholic and wasn't allowed to use contraception; my mother almost died because of it. 0:38:58.482 --> 0:39:2.972 Hélène Goulet Euh moi j'étais très consciente de ça, j'étais très révoltée contre l'Église. I was very aware of that, and I was very rebellious against the Church. 0:39:2.982 --> 0:39:5.332 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être très révoltée contre l'Église. I began to feel very rebellious towards the Church. 0:39:5.342 --> 0:39:15.722 Hélène Goulet J'étais très jeune, j'avais peut-être 13h quand j'ai commencé à vraiment avoir les gros dans le, les dogmes, puis les la théologie. I was very young, I was maybe 13 when I really started to get the big in the, the dogmas, then the theology. 0:39:15.732 --> 0:39:16.962 Hélène Goulet Là, tu sais la moralité. There, you know there morality. 0:39:18.932 --> 0:39:19.722 Hélène Goulet Catholique romaine. Roman Catholic. 0:39:20.882 --> 0:39:39.522 Hélène Goulet Puis, éventuellement, j'ai quitté l'Église catholique romaine, puis, mais j'ai toujours été pratiquante fait que j'ai choisi d'aller dans des églises où il y avait plus d'actions sociales justement, comme l'Église unie où j'ai passé 10h, puis après ça, j'ai je suis allée dans l'Église anglicane, puis à Ottawa. Then, eventually, I left the Roman Catholic Church, but I've always been a churchgoer, so I chose to go to churches where there was more social action, like the United Church, where I spent 10 hours, and then I went to the Anglican Church, then to Ottawa. 0:39:39.532 --> 0:39:53.462 Hélène Goulet L'Église anglicane est très engagée socialement, cette porte beaucoup, beaucoup de de causes comme le centre 454 well cornerstone, c'est des créations du diocèse anglican d'Ottawa. The Anglican Church is very socially committed, it supports many, many causes such as the 454 well cornerstone center, which is a creation of the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa. 0:39:53.472 --> 0:39:59.312 Hélène Goulet Fait que je me suis appliquée plus à ce niveau-là fait que oui, il y avait. The fact that I applied myself more at that level meant that yes, there was. 0:39:59.352 --> 0:40:3.292 Hélène Goulet Oui, on trouvait que nos parents étaient très vieux jeu. Yes, we thought our parents were very old-fashioned. 0:40:5.252 --> 0:40:22.362 Hélène Goulet Euh, très traditionnel, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté mes parents, tu sais, j'avais des conversations, je n’étais pas toujours d'accord avec eux, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté que j'étais dans leur maison quand j'étais là, puis que je suivais les règles. Uh, very traditional, but at the same time I always respected my parents, you know, I had conversations, I didn't always agree with them, but at the same time I always respected that I was in their house when I was there, and that I followed the rules. 0:40:22.412 --> 0:40:23.152 Hélène Goulet 13 ans. 13 years old. 0:40:23.192 --> 0:40:27.12 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais à l'heure, mais ma vie en dehors de la, c'était ma vie à moi. When I was on time, but my life outside of it was my own. 0:40:28.642 --> 0:40:35.942 Gigi Kaur OK, c'est vraiment intéressant que vous ayez dit à propos de religion parce que je dois même maintenant? OK, that's really interesting what you said about religion because I have to even now? 0:40:35.952 --> 0:40:49.92 Gigi Kaur Les gens dénoncent et il va aller dans un autre ou sinon ils arrêtent complètement mais y a plusieurs choses que vous dites qu'on va maintenant aussi il n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est juste là le temps qui a changé, c'est tout. People denounce and he'll go to another or else they stop altogether but there are several things you say we're going to now too there's not much that's changed, it's just there the weather has changed, that's all. 0:40:51.582 --> 0:40:52.452 Gigi Kaur Exactement. Exactly. 0:40:49.592 --> 0:40:53.582 Hélène Goulet Et ça change plus c'est pareil, malheureusement souvent, mais en tout cas. And it changes the more it's the same, unfortunately often, but in any case. 0:40:53.992 --> 0:40:55.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, à propos de ça. Yeah, about that. 0:40:57.642 --> 0:41:5.312 Gigi Kaur Vu, avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique et quittable et qui répondait aux besoins des citoyens? Did you feel that the political system was democratic and manageable, and that it met the needs of citizens? 0:41:5.322 --> 0:41:7.662 Gigi Kaur On voit ça clairement, ce débat même aujourd? We can see it clearly, this debate even today. 0:41:7.672 --> 0:41:11.662 Gigi Kaur Hui, est-ce que vous voyez ce débat aussi en 1970? Hui, do you also see this debate in 1970? 0:41:12.372 --> 0:41:15.592 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'avoir eu des conversations comme ça. I don't really remember having conversations like that. 0:41:15.602 --> 0:41:22.132 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas très politique à l'époque, ça m'a pris du temps pour devenir plus politique. I wasn't very political at the time, so it took me a while to become more political. 0:41:22.142 --> 0:41:26.502 Hélène Goulet C'est probablement quand j'ai commencé à faire le droit, puis le MDE, où j'ai été plus là. It was probably when I started law school, then MDE, that I was more there. 0:41:26.512 --> 0:41:33.292 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être plus obligé d'une certaine façon de m'intéresser à la politique. I began to feel more compelled in some way to take an interest in politics. 0:41:33.622 --> 0:41:42.512 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a eu toute l'avènement de la Charte des droits, parce que moi, j'ai quand j'étais en droit, c'était le rapatriement de la Constitution 1982. Then there was the whole advent of the Charter of Rights, because when I was in law school, it was the repatriation of the 1982 Constitution. 0:41:42.552 --> 0:41:51.552 Hélène Goulet Moi, j'ai commencé mon droit à 82 et puis j'ai fini à 85 avec l'avènement de la Charte des droits, l'achat de l'égalité. I started law school in '82 and finished in '85 with the advent of the Charter of Rights, the purchase of equality. 0:41:52.232 --> 0:42:3.142 Hélène Goulet Alors quand j'ai commencé à travailler au ministère de la justice, j'ai travaillé beaucoup, beaucoup avec l'achat, avec les droits à l'égalité, fait que je suis devenue pas mal politicien, ouais. So, when I started working at the Ministry of Justice, I worked a lot, a lot with purchasing, with equality rights, so I became quite a politician, yeah. 0:42:5.352 --> 0:42:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:3.882 --> 0:42:11.82 Gigi Kaur OKOK mais vous avez dit en même temps que ça changeait un peu parce qu'il y avait eu des changements politiques aussi, comme la charte et cetera. OKOK but you said at the same time that it was changing a bit because there had been political changes too, like the charter et cetera. 0:42:14.192 --> 0:42:25.172 Hélène Goulet Ouais, y a eu une plus grande conscientisation, je pense de des droits à l'égalité dans la danse, c'était plus dans les années quatre-vingt, mais c'est sûr qu'il y a eu tout un. Yeah, there was a greater awareness, I think, of equality rights in the eighties, but it was definitely a whole thing. 0:42:31.172 --> 0:42:31.372 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:42:27.242 --> 0:42:32.862 Hélène Goulet Que tout ce qui s'est passé des années 70A, mené à ça aussi tu ne sais rien qui arrive comme ça? That everything that happened in the 70s and 70s led to this, too - you don't know anything that just happens, do you? 0:42:32.872 --> 0:42:39.122 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'est toujours une évolution, une sociale, tu sais qui fait que l'évolution sociale. It's always an evolution, a social evolution, you know. 0:42:39.132 --> 0:42:50.932 Hélène Goulet Arrivé avant de changement à la loi, la plupart du temps, c'est parce qu'il y a une pression, y a une pression de la base, c'est, c'est, ça n’arrive pas par en haut, ça arrive par en bas, même si on ne s’en rend pas trop compte, c'est ça? Most of the time, it's because there's pressure, there's grassroots pressure, it's, it doesn't come from the top, it comes from the bottom, even if you're not too aware of it, right? 0:42:51.942 --> 0:42:59.592 Gigi Kaur Ouais en même chose, on voit ça clairement aujourd'hui aussi, la pression d'en bas qui force les politiciens. Yeah, but at the same time, we're seeing this clearly today too, the pressure from below that forces politicians. 0:42:59.872 --> 0:43:0.62 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:59.602 --> 0:43:4.902 Gigi Kaur Le gouvernement à changer leurs documents, et cetera fait qu'on voit clairement la même chose. The government has changed their documents, et cetera, so that we can clearly see the same thing. 0:43:1.372 --> 0:43:14.822 Hélène Goulet Oui, y a on le voit avec la Cour suprême aussi, la Cour suprême, c'est vraiment intéressant parce qu'à l'époque où je faisais mon droit, c'était Borel, le skin qui était le juge en chef de la Cour suprême. It's really interesting because when I was doing my law degree, it was Borel, la skin, who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. 0:43:29.792 --> 0:43:30.82 Gigi Kaur Non? No? 0:43:15.282 --> 0:43:33.732 Hélène Goulet C'était un homme de la gauche était très progressif, très progressif, au point où il était souvent le jugement dissident avec la majorité était ailleurs, n’était pas rendu là encore. He was a man of the left was very progressive, very progressive, to the point where he was often dissenting judgment with the majority was elsewhere, was not rendered there yet. 0:43:34.62 --> 0:43:35.842 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il écrivait des jugements. Then he wrote judgments. 0:43:37.232 --> 0:43:38.842 Hélène Goulet Complètement plus à gauche. Completely more to the left. 0:43:40.352 --> 0:43:58.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec le temps, en l'espace de 10 ans, les jugements dissidents de borella skins sont devenus les jugements majoritaires de la Cour suprême, fait qu'il y a eu une grande influence, mais ça a pris quelques années avant que là, là aussi, le gouvernement a commencé à nommer des juges plus à gauche. And then over time, in the space of 10 years, the dissenting judgments of borella skins became the majority judgments of the Supreme Court, so there was a big influence, but it took a few years before there, too, the government started appointing more left-leaning judges. 0:43:58.772 --> 0:44:0.652 Hélène Goulet Aussi, comme il y a eu Bertha Wilson. Also, as there was Bertha Wilson. 0:44:2.192 --> 0:44:3.612 Hélène Goulet Puis il a commencé à voir des femmes. Then he started seeing women. 0:44:5.562 --> 0:44:10.252 Hélène Goulet T'es avec les femmes, on est devenu beaucoup plus à gauche, beaucoup plus à gauche. With women, we've become much more left-wing, much more left-wing. 0:44:10.262 --> 0:44:14.292 Hélène Goulet Les femmes étaient, les femmes étaient beaucoup plus socialement. Women were women were much more social. 0:44:17.82 --> 0:44:22.92 Hélène Goulet Consciente en général, mais bon, laskin a été. Conscious in general, but hey, laskin was. 0:44:22.162 --> 0:44:26.272 Hélène Goulet Puis texel aussi, ça a été des hommes vraiment exceptionnels. And Texel, too, was a truly exceptional group of men. 0:44:26.642 --> 0:44:32.12 Hélène Goulet Puis bureau Wilson fait qu'il y a eu y a eu tout un mouvement, là vers la gauche, plus vers la gauche. Then Wilson's office saw a whole movement to the left, more to the left. 0:44:32.22 --> 0:44:39.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, maintenant, c'est plus central centre je dirais, mais en tout cas ça c'était vraiment intéressant à vivre. You know, now it's more centrally located, I'd say, but in any case, it was really interesting to experience. 0:44:41.512 --> 0:44:47.642 Gigi Kaur Vous dites plus à gauche, c'était tout de suite après le 2e Guerre mondiale, ça a pris du temps d'aller sur la gauche. You say more to the left, but that was right after the 2nd World War, so it took a while to move to the left. 0:44:47.792 --> 0:44:49.662 Hélène Goulet Oh, ça a pris du temps, mais c'est. Oh, it took a while, but it's. 0:44:49.672 --> 0:44:57.762 Hélène Goulet C'est à mesure que les droits individuels ont pris de l'importance parce qu'avant la 2e Guerre mondiale, il y avait la déclaration des droits. As time went on, individual rights gained in importance, because before the 2nd World War, there was the Bill of Rights. 0:44:58.792 --> 0:45:3.992 Hélène Goulet Euh, qui avait été passée comme en 1949 après la 2e Guerre mondiale? Er, which had been passed as in 1949 after the 2nd World War? 0:45:4.2 --> 0:45:6.722 Hélène Goulet Je pense, tu le saurais mieux que moi? I think you'd know better than me? 0:45:7.182 --> 0:45:14.122 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis c'est à partir de là que l'avènement des droits individuels a commencé à devenir plus important. Uh, then the advent of individual rights started to become more important. 0:45:14.132 --> 0:45:17.672 Hélène Goulet C'est le rôle des femmes, des femmes qui avaient travaillé pendant la guerre. This is the role of women, women who had worked during the war. 0:45:17.682 --> 0:45:19.232 Hélène Goulet Voulait pas retourner dans leur cuisine. Didn't want to go back to their kitchen. 0:45:21.252 --> 0:45:23.442 Hélène Goulet Y avait goûter à gagner de l'argent. Y had a taste for making money. 0:45:23.572 --> 0:45:29.672 Hélène Goulet Il y avait goûter à être indépendant parce que les maris étaient partis à la guerre, fait que là, il y a eu un changement social sais. There was a taste of independence because the husbands had gone off to war, so there was a definite social change. 0:45:29.682 --> 0:45:34.252 Hélène Goulet On l'a vu avec je ne sais pas si t'as j'ai écouté la série Madden. We saw him with I don't know if you've listened to the Madden series. 0:45:37.562 --> 0:45:39.492 Hélène Goulet Ses unis, on l'a vu dans cette série-là. These unis, we saw it in that series there. 0:45:39.502 --> 0:45:46.432 Hélène Goulet Ben la même chose arrivait au Canada un petit peu en retard, ça fait qu'il y a eu beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup de de changements. Well, the same thing happened in Canada a little late, so there were many, many, many changes. 0:45:46.442 --> 0:45:51.52 Hélène Goulet C'est pour ça que par le temps que moi je t'ai adolescente puis jeune adulte. That's why, over the years, I've had you as a teenager and then as a young adult. 0:45:51.62 --> 0:45:58.492 Hélène Goulet Le côté féministe, il est devenu pas mal fort, pas mal, pas mal fort, tu sais, y avait beaucoup de mouvements féministes à l'époque. The feminist side, it became quite strong, quite strong, quite strong, you know, there were a lot of feminist movements at the time. 0:45:58.502 --> 0:46:6.952 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens, il y avait eu, y a eu la formation de plusieurs organismes féministes de cette époque. I remember the formation of several feminist organizations at the time. 0:46:6.962 --> 0:46:9.602 Hélène Goulet Là aussi, Wen, comment ça s'appelait? Here too, Wen, what was it called? 0:46:11.122 --> 0:46:18.532 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une grosse manifestation à Ottawa, ce n’est pas une manifestation, c'est une comme une espèce de d'énorme conférence. There was a big demonstration in Ottawa, it's not a demonstration, it's like a huge conference. 0:46:18.682 --> 0:46:29.442 Hélène Goulet C'était à cette époque-là que c'est arrivé, je n’ai pas participé mais je me souviens qu'à cette époque-là, dans les années 70, qui a vraiment ça bouge beaucoup au niveau du féminisme. I didn't take part, but I remember that at that time, in the '70s, there was a lot of movement in feminism. 0:46:32.772 --> 0:46:48.62 Gigi Kaur Ouais intéressant, je trouve ça très intéressant car clairement quand vous dites les choses dans ma tête, c'est comme en train de relier avec Aujourd hui puis comme je l'ai dit plusieurs fois ça parle vraiment changer, comment on va beaucoup plus de de féministes donc avec leurs organismes. Yeah interesting, I find it very interesting because clearly when you say things in my head, it's like connecting with Today then as I've said several times it really talks about change, how we're going to a lot more of feminists so with their organizations. 0:46:48.392 --> 0:46:56.312 Gigi Kaur Mais cette fois-ci, c'est plus les, les féministes avec la peau plus brune, c'est là, la couleur, et cetera pense ça. But this time, it's more the, the feminists with the browner skin, it's the, the color, et cetera think it. 0:46:56.312 --> 0:46:56.472 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:46:56.322 --> 0:47:1.472 Gigi Kaur Là, c'est plus les féministes blanches, je ne veux pas dire Blanche, mais tu sais, c'est la réalité. Here, it's more the white feminists, I don't want to say white, but you know, it's reality. 0:46:59.112 --> 0:47:3.972 Hélène Goulet Ouais non c'est vrai non, non, c'est vrai, c'est vrai tout à fait vrai. Yeah, no it's true no, no, it's true, it's true absolutely true. 0:47:3.982 --> 0:47:40.792 Hélène Goulet Il y avait très peu de de femmes non ohh racialiser mais femme autochtone, tu sais, y avait très peu à l'époque dans les mouvements féministes, mais c'est moi ce que je remarque, c'est dans le monde entier, c'est que en Amérique du Nord, comme la conscience féministe, c'est beaucoup plus avancée que puis en Europe aussi que dans d'autres pays, c'est des pays moins développés économiquement ou des pays où le rôle des femmes est encore très traditionnel pour les femmes sont encore. There were very few women who weren't ohh racialized but Aboriginal women, you know, there were very few at the time in the feminist movements, but that's what I notice, it's all over the world, it's that in North America, like feminist consciousness, it's much more advanced than then in Europe too than in other countries, it's less economically developed countries or countries where the role of women is still very traditional for women are still. 0:47:41.122 --> 0:47:45.612 Hélène Goulet Tu sais extrêmement, mais on voit qu'avec le temps, l'influence. You know extremely, but we see that with time, influence. 0:47:45.682 --> 0:47:50.522 Hélène Goulet Lance de des pays où les femmes ont plus de droit. Launches countries where women have more rights. 0:47:59.532 --> 0:47:59.752 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:47:50.992 --> 0:48:5.662 Hélène Goulet Il y a comme Bleeding, tu sais, tiens, on voit en Iran en ce moment, tu sais les femmes, puis les hommes, jeunes hommes qui manifestent avec les femmes, c'est ça, c'est, c'est assez nouveau, ça? It's like Bleeding, you know, you see in Iran right now, you know women, then men, young men demonstrating with women, it's that, it's, it's pretty new, that? 0:48:6.712 --> 0:48:10.392 Hélène Goulet Euh, c'est assez nouveau, ce n’est pas juste les femmes toutes seules qui se battent. It's not just women fighting on their own. 0:48:10.402 --> 0:48:12.802 Hélène Goulet Comme en Iran, les jeunes hommes sont là aussi. As in Iran, the young men are there too. 0:48:13.32 --> 0:48:21.992 Hélène Goulet C'est avec les femmes dans les manifestations fait qu'on si on voit qu'il y a des changements, mais c'est tellement lent, tu sais, c'est tellement décourageant par moment, mais. It's with the women in the demonstrations that we if we see that there are changes, but it's so slow, you know, it's so discouraging at times, but. 0:48:23.942 --> 0:48:29.92 Hélène Goulet En Afghanistan test tellement triste ce qui se passe, c'est tellement horrible, tu sais, c'est. In Afghanistan test so sad what's going on, it's so horrible, you know, it's. 0:48:30.942 --> 0:48:33.462 Hélène Goulet Ouais mais les femmes ont goûté à autre chose. Yeah, but women have tasted something else. 0:48:34.632 --> 0:48:42.842 Hélène Goulet Puis, le jour où elles vont avoir la possibilité, elles vont vous vouloir ça encore elles le veulent maintenant, elles ne peuvent pas l'avoir maintenant, mais elles le veulent maintenant. Then, the day they get the chance, they're going to want it again, they want it now, they can't have it now, but they want it now. 0:48:42.852 --> 0:48:54.782 Hélène Goulet En Arabie saoudite, on a vu qu'il y a eu un petit peu de mouvement, c'est lent, c'est extrêmement lent mais en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire maintenant, c'est quoi en Amérique du Nord? In Saudi Arabia, we've seen a little movement, it's slow, it's extremely slow, but in Saudi Arabia, women can drive now, what's it like in North America? 0:48:54.792 --> 0:48:59.672 Hélène Goulet C'est comme en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire une auto maintenant. It's like in Saudi Arabia, women can drive a car now. 0:49:0.152 --> 0:49:3.452 Gigi Kaur Ouais, mais c'était en 2018, je pense que j'étais en secondaire. Yeah, but that was 2018, I think I was in high school. 0:49:3.462 --> 0:49:5.182 Gigi Kaur Ouais, j'étais au secondaire. Yeah, I was in high school. 0:49:5.192 --> 0:49:6.92 Gigi Kaur Enfin en ce temps-là. At least in those days. 0:49:3.152 --> 0:49:7.392 Hélène Goulet Oui, oui, c'est assez, ça, c'est récent hein? Yes, yes, that's enough, it's recent, isn't it? 0:49:8.932 --> 0:49:15.212 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que c'est, c'est l'heure, les, le progrès est extrêmement lent, mais en même temps il est là. That makes it, it's time, the, progress is extremely slow, but at the same time it's there. 0:49:15.322 --> 0:49:19.902 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a comme une sorte d'évolution de la conscience qui se fait très doucement. You know, there's a kind of evolution of consciousness that takes place very slowly. 0:49:21.442 --> 0:49:24.152 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a beaucoup de de recul. Then there's a lot of hindsight. 0:49:25.762 --> 0:49:27.532 Hélène Goulet Comme on l'a vu en Afghanistan. As we saw in Afghanistan. 0:49:27.972 --> 0:49:29.412 Hélène Goulet Et toi, c'est quoi ton background? What's your background? 0:49:31.22 --> 0:49:32.52 Gigi Kaur C'est quoi mon background? What's my background? 0:49:31.32 --> 0:49:34.572 Hélène Goulet Si c'est tu veux me le dire? If do you want to tell me? 0:49:38.92 --> 0:49:38.422 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:32.62 --> 0:49:41.842 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci à mes parents, mes parents sont open jaby fait que noir indienne on dit punjabi, parce qu'on a une situation avec l'Inde, mais ça, c'est une autre histoire, complète. My parents don't have any worries, they're open jaby, which means they're black Indian, Punjabi, because we have a situation with India, but that's another story, complete. 0:49:40.632 --> 0:49:42.792 Hélène Goulet Ouais, ça c'est. Yeah, that's it. 0:49:42.352 --> 0:49:47.702 Gigi Kaur Moi, je moi, je suis née aux États-Unis, je suis venu à l'âge de 10 ans à Montréal. I, myself, was born in the United States and came to Montreal at the age of 10. 0:49:47.992 --> 0:49:48.262 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:48.112 --> 0:49:52.2 Gigi Kaur C'est pour ça que mon français est plus anglophone, mais des fois je fais des fautes et lever, mais tu sais? That's why my French is more Anglophone, but sometimes I make mistakes and get up, but you know? 0:49:51.972 --> 0:49:56.202 Hélène Goulet Tu passes très bien, tu parles très bien, je t'encourage à continuer parce que tu parles très bien. You pass very well, you speak very well, I encourage you to continue because you speak very well. 0:49:56.852 --> 0:50:0.142 Gigi Kaur Merci beaucoup, mais ça je ne suis pas déjà à la base américaine. Thanks a lot, but I'm not at the American base yet. 0:50:0.152 --> 0:50:2.102 Gigi Kaur Après puis après canadienne. After and after Canadian. 0:50:2.652 --> 0:50:3.552 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:50:4.32 --> 0:50:6.902 Hélène Goulet Ouais, j'ai une amie très proche qui est interne. Yeah, I have a very close friend who's an intern. 0:50:7.52 --> 0:50:9.242 Hélène Goulet Elle n’est pas née en Inde, est née ici, mais ça, ça. She wasn't born in India, she was born here, but this, this. 0:50:9.252 --> 0:50:12.682 Hélène Goulet Famille séparent, je pense que ses parents sont nés en Inde. Family separated; I think his parents were born in India. 0:50:12.692 --> 0:50:15.62 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est pareil, on est en Inde. Yes, it's the same, we're in India. 0:50:13.392 --> 0:50:15.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, c'est ça qui est plus. Yeah, that's what's more. 0:50:15.672 --> 0:50:22.302 Gigi Kaur Plusieurs Indiens sont les parents sont, viens, font des enfants ici puis après ils font grandir. Many Indians are parents are, come, make children here then afterwards they make grow up. 0:50:22.312 --> 0:50:23.722 Gigi Kaur Et de génération en génération. And from generation to generation. 0:50:23.782 --> 0:50:26.102 Gigi Kaur Je suis certain que vous voyez. I'm sure you can see. 0:50:29.252 --> 0:50:29.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:26.112 --> 0:50:31.702 Gigi Kaur British Colombia y a beaucoup d'Indiens, beaucoup Chinois là-bas, qu'ils étaient là depuis des années et des années, des années. British Colombia there are a lot of Indians, a lot of Chinese there, they've been there for years and years and years. 0:50:32.192 --> 0:50:32.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:32.132 --> 0:50:38.752 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, ça devient un lin de Chine et là ça devient un homme territoire de l'Inde et Chine, et je trouve ça très drôle. Now it's becoming a China flax and now it's becoming a man from India and China, and I think that's very funny. 0:50:44.642 --> 0:50:50.812 Gigi Kaur Ohh prochaine question après y a quelques minutes, je sais, c'est vraiment long, si jamais t'as besoin quelque chose de ce mois, savoir. Ohh next question after a few minutes, I know, it's really long, if you ever need something this month, know. 0:50:50.732 --> 0:50:55.632 Hélène Goulet Ça veut dire moi juste, je vais juste aller allumer mon four parce que j'ai quelque chose à faire cuire. That just means me, I'm just going to go turn on my oven because I've got something to bake. 0:50:55.642 --> 0:50:59.832 Hélène Goulet J'attendais 11h00 pour parce que ça coûte, ça coûte moins cher après 11h. I waited until 11:00 because it costs less after 11:00. 0:51:0.932 --> 0:51:1.532 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci. No worries. 0:51:15.782 --> 0:51:19.802 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je pense que je vais en profiter pour aller aux toilettes, OK, je reviens. Yeah, I think I'm going to use the bathroom, OK, I'll be right back. 0:51:19.362 --> 0:51:20.392 Gigi Kaur Parfait n’y a pas de souci. Perfect, no worries. 0:52:7.712 --> 0:52:7.942 Hélène Goulet OK. Ok 0:52:9.512 --> 0:52:10.162 Gigi Kaur Parfait. Perfect. 0:52:11.542 --> 0:52:15.162 Gigi Kaur Alors, il y a 2 questions qui restent, puis après je vous laisse, j'essaye. So, there are 2 questions left, then I'll leave you to it, I'll try. 0:52:15.172 --> 0:52:46.582 Gigi Kaur On a parlé pour des heures, des heures, des heures, mais je sais que vous avez plein de choses à faire, que je vous laisserai dans quelques minutes si ça ne vous dérange pas en la prochaine question, les historiens de la culture ont aimé affirmer que les l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation des départements, la division de de l'idéologie de l'amour libre, on modifie les relations entre femmes et les pratiques d'amoureuses. We've talked for hours and hours and hours, but I know you've got plenty to do, so I'll leave you in a few minutes if you don't mind the next question, cultural historians have liked to assert that the introduction of the contraceptive pill, the legalization of departments, the division of the ideology of free love, altered relations between women and the practices of lovemaking. 0:52:46.592 --> 0:52:53.702 Gigi Kaur Au début des années 1970, alors la question, c'est, êtes-vous d'accord avec cette information? In the early 1970s, so the question is, do you agree with this information? 0:52:54.722 --> 0:52:55.852 Hélène Goulet Probablement, oui. Probably, yes. 0:53:0.322 --> 0:53:8.722 Hélène Goulet C'est vrai que la traduction de la période moi je n’ai jamais pris ça, mais il y avait beaucoup de conversations sur l'avortement, tout ça, puis ça vraiment. It's true that the translation of the period I never took that, but there were a lot of conversations about abortion, all that, and then that really. 0:53:11.422 --> 0:53:21.772 Hélène Goulet Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 4 vingts, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 20, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. 0:53:21.782 --> 0:53:32.362 Hélène Goulet Parce que ça s'est rendu en Cour suprême, il y a eu Morgan Taller, y a eu tout ça et moi j'ai, j'ai été témoin de tout ça parce que j'étais avocate à ce moment-là. Because it went to the Supreme Court, there was Morgan Taller, there was all that and I, I witnessed all that because I was a lawyer at the time. 0:53:35.312 --> 0:53:39.972 Hélène Goulet Mais c'est, c'est sûr que la contraception et ce n’est pas juste la contraception, c'est elle. But it's, it's definitely contraception and it's not just contraception, it's her. 0:53:39.982 --> 0:53:46.422 Hélène Goulet Mélange de à quoi réception, qui devenait disponible, mais aussi là, les mentalités qui avaient changé. A mixture of what reception, which was becoming available, but also the, the mentalities that had changed. 0:53:47.432 --> 0:53:49.112 Hélène Goulet Y a tu sais tout le courant féministe? You know the whole feminist movement? 0:53:51.562 --> 0:53:57.782 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que l'avènement de la d'une contraception fiable aide le mouvement féministe. This is what the advent of reliable contraception has done for the feminist movement. 0:53:57.792 --> 0:54:0.272 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe, c'était là quand même. But the feminist movement was there all the same. 0:54:0.542 --> 0:54:2.392 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'était un parallèle. It's, it was a parallel. 0:54:2.402 --> 0:54:7.82 Hélène Goulet D'une certaine façon, c'est ceux que les femmes qui pouvaient prendre la pilule. In a way, they were the ones who could take the pill. 0:54:9.892 --> 0:54:15.122 Hélène Goulet Qu'il apprenait était probablement avec plus de liberté. That he was learning was probably with more freedom. 0:54:15.132 --> 0:54:16.932 Hélène Goulet Tu sais que celle qui ne la prenait pas? You know the one that didn't? 0:54:20.442 --> 0:54:25.102 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai l'impression que c'est vraiment en tout cas c'est juste ça, c'est une impression. But I have the impression that it's really just that, it's just an impression. 0:54:25.112 --> 0:54:29.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une opinion que c'est un peu en parallèle, je ne peux pas prouver ça. It's an opinion that it's a bit parallel, I can't prove that. 0:54:29.822 --> 0:54:35.942 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe avait vraiment pas, peut-être aidé aussi au développement de la contraception. But the feminist movement really hadn't, perhaps also helped the development of contraception. 0:54:35.952 --> 0:54:40.302 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a peut-être, il y a eu du euh. You know, there may have been, there may have been some uh. 0:54:40.542 --> 0:54:42.972 Hélène Goulet Une chose à nourri l'autre tu sais, c'est un peu comme. One thing fed the other, you know, it's kind of like. 0:54:45.812 --> 0:55:7.252 Hélène Goulet Le fait qu'il y avait la pilule contraceptive, ça aide à des femmes à limiter le nombre d'enfants qu'elles avaient, ça les a aidés à pouvoir travailler, ça aide les employeurs à voir les femmes comme fiables sur le marché du travail parce qu'elle elle aurait plus d'enfants qu'il y a eu tout tu sais tout ça, ce influençait un l'autre. The fact that there was the contraceptive pill, it helped women limit the number of children they had, it helped them be able to work, it helped employers see women as reliable on the job market because she would have more children than there were all you know all that, it influenced one another. 0:55:7.262 --> 0:55:16.452 Hélène Goulet Finalement, ce n’est pas une chose qui a fait que tout ça est arrivé, c'est vraiment y avait un mouvement social, il y avait. Finally, it's not one thing that made all this happen, it's really that there was a social movement, there was. 0:55:16.102 --> 0:55:18.542 Gigi Kaur Il y a des choses qui accumulées pour ce moment-là. There are things built up for that moment. 0:55:19.92 --> 0:55:20.892 Hélène Goulet Ouais, absolument ouais. Yeah, absolutely yeah. 0:55:20.942 --> 0:55:22.202 Hélène Goulet Y a eu toutes sortes de choses. There were all kinds of things. 0:55:22.782 --> 0:55:30.142 Gigi Kaur OKOK bah même chose maintenant, je pense que les constructifs sont très présents. OKOK bah same thing now, I think the constructivists are very present. 0:55:30.442 --> 0:55:40.292 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, je pense que les policiers veut enlever pour que pour surtout le comme surtout avortement toujours présent fait que ouais, ça c'est un autre débat complet différent. Now, I think the cops want to remove so that for especially the as especially abortion still present makes that yeah, that's another whole different debate. 0:55:40.302 --> 0:55:40.842 Gigi Kaur Mais ouais. But Yes 0:55:40.132 --> 0:55:46.662 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis on n'est-ce pas qu’il n’y aura pas trop d'influence américaine sur ce qui se passe au Canada? Yeah, and don't you think there won't be too much American influence on what happens in Canada? 0:55:46.672 --> 0:55:56.612 Hélène Goulet Parce que jusqu'à maintenant, je dirais qu au Canada, on est beaucoup plus ouvert par rapport à l'avortement, puis à la pilule, la pilule, avoir avorté. Because until now, I'd say that in Canada, we're much more open about abortion, and then the pill, the pill, having an abortion. 0:55:56.622 --> 0:55:57.852 Hélène Goulet Cie, avertir. Cie, warn. 0:56:1.2 --> 0:56:7.132 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu au Canada, les politiciens ont très peur d'ouvrir ce sujet-là parce qu'ils savent qu’ils n’ont pas d'appui. I think that in Canada, politicians are very afraid to open up this subject because they know they don't have the support. 0:56:7.182 --> 0:56:11.402 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, les Canadiens en général sont plus à gauche sur ce sais. You know, Canadians in general are more to the left on this one. 0:56:11.412 --> 0:56:22.252 Hélène Goulet C'est sûr qu'il y a des, y a des groupes, y a des groupes qui traditionnels, mais ils auraient beaucoup de mal à se faire élire comme gouvernement au Canada. Of course, there are some traditional groups, but they would have a hard time getting elected as a government in Canada. 0:56:22.382 --> 0:56:23.662 Hélène Goulet Encore jusqu'à maintenant. Until now. 0:56:25.312 --> 0:56:32.972 Hélène Goulet Mais aux États-Unis, c'est assez peur, c'est qu'on voit ce qui se passe aussi unis en général sur bien des sujets. But in the U.S., it's pretty scary, because we see what's going on united in general on a lot of issues. 0:56:32.752 --> 0:56:36.832 Gigi Kaur Attends, attends, être un Américain, je peux vous confirmer que c'est le? Wait, wait, being an American, I can confirm that this is the? 0:56:40.622 --> 0:57:0.172 Gigi Kaur Alors la dernière question, je pense que ouais, c'est la dernière question, alors notre génération intéressée par un mouvement de l'amour libre qu'elle était la perception des relations avant le mariage sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970, étiez vu négativement. So, the last question, I think yeah, this is the last question, so our generation interested in a free love movement what the perception of premarital relationships on the University of Ottawa campus in was the 1970s, were seen negatively. 0:57:0.182 --> 0:57:7.152 Gigi Kaur Accepter ou même encourager dans cette période, dans ce mouvement, dans cette mentalité, idéologie? To accept or even encourage in this period, in this movement, in this mentality, ideology? 0:57:8.432 --> 0:57:13.392 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’est pas vraiment dans le cercle dans lequel j'opérais c'était accepté. You know, it's not really in the circle I was operating in that was accepted. 0:57:14.802 --> 0:57:15.902 Hélène Goulet Encourager? Encourage? 0:57:16.312 --> 0:57:17.352 Hélène Goulet Pas nécessairement. Not necessarily. 0:57:18.252 --> 0:57:30.402 Hélène Goulet Euh, mais c'était accepté en général, comme il n’y avait pas de choc, quelqu'un disait qu'il y avait qui était qui avait des relations avec quelqu'un ou qui habitait avec quelqu'un qui n’était pas marié. Uh, but it was accepted in general, as there was no shock, someone would say that there was who was who had relations with someone or who lived with someone who wasn't married. 0:57:30.412 --> 0:57:35.32 Hélène Goulet Il n’y avait pas de choc, il n’y avait pas, tu sais, c'était. There was no shock, there was no, you know, it was. 0:57:35.72 --> 0:57:36.712 Hélène Goulet C'était vu comme assez ordinaire. It was seen as quite ordinary. 0:57:37.842 --> 0:57:38.92 Gigi Kaur OK. Ok 0:57:38.732 --> 0:57:54.782 Hélène Goulet Ouais je ne sais pas ou.de vue comme si les relations multiples était aussi accepté mais quand t'avais un copain puis que tu que tu que t'avais des relations avec ton copain, ça c'était accepté. Yeah, I don't know, like multiple relationships were also accepted, but when you had a boyfriend and then you had relationships with your boyfriend, that was accepted. 0:57:55.652 --> 0:58:8.912 Hélène Goulet Si y avait eu des orgies, je ne sais pas si moi ce n’est pas mon monde, mais y en avait sûrement parce que moi je suis très naïve mais il y en avait sûrement, mais ce n’est pas mon monde, c'est que je ne peux pas vraiment parler. If there had been orgies, I don't know if it's not my world, but there probably were, because I'm very naive, but there probably were, but it's not my world, so I can't really talk. 0:58:12.52 --> 0:58:12.262 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 0:58:9.812 --> 0:58:14.372 Gigi Kaur Et vous avez participé une blague, t'as pas besoin de répondre, t'as pas besoin de répondre. And you participated in a joke, you don't have to answer, you don't have to respond. 0:58:14.912 --> 0:58:17.322 Hélène Goulet Non, ce n’est pas mon bag. No, it's not my bag. 0:58:19.522 --> 0:58:24.222 Gigi Kaur Mais je pense que dans le 1970 et même 4 Vingts, c'était la période, vraiment. But I think in the 1970s and even the 4 Twenties, that was the period, really. 0:58:26.392 --> 0:58:30.262 Gigi Kaur Très, ouvert avec les origines, avec multi partenaires, et cetera. Very, open with origins, with multi partners, et cetera. 0:58:30.272 --> 0:58:33.632 Gigi Kaur Fait, ouais, je suis, je ne serai pas surprise non plus. Fact, yeah, I am, I won't be surprised either. 0:58:33.702 --> 0:58:35.422 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, c'est en train de diminuer à dire. Now it's dwindling to say. 0:58:36.742 --> 0:58:54.782 Hélène Goulet Je pense que quand j'ai commencé à enseigner à Cornwall en 1975, j'ai appris un moment donné pendant que j'étais là pendant 2 ans, qu’il y avait des orgies, des adultes, pas des pas des jeunes et des adultes professionnels. I think when I started teaching in Cornwall in 1975, I learned at one point while I was there for 2 years, that there were orgies, adults, not youths and professional adults. 0:58:54.792 --> 0:58:58.592 Hélène Goulet Il y avait des y avait des, des échanges de coupes. There were exchanges of cups. 0:58:59.912 --> 0:59:2.112 Hélène Goulet C'est l'équivalent à peu près de notre d'énergie. It's roughly equivalent to our energy consumption. 0:59:2.122 --> 0:59:7.2 Hélène Goulet Au fond des échanges de couples qui se passaient dans des parties. Basically, it's about couples exchanging ideas at parties. 0:59:7.12 --> 0:59:15.102 Hélène Goulet Puis tu sais, ça m'avait, à l'époque, je suis très surprise que j'étais très naïve, mais j'étais très naïve d'un petit village. At the time, I'm very surprised that I was so naive, but I was very naive from a small village. 0:59:16.642 --> 0:59:23.832 Hélène Goulet Et puis après ça, j'ai appris que dans c'était très populaire dans les petites villes, les gros villages et les petites villes. And then after that, I learned that in it was very popular in small towns, big villages, and small cities. 0:59:23.842 --> 0:59:27.822 Hélène Goulet Il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient beaucoup, beaucoup de ça qui se passait. There was a lot of that going on, a lot of that going on. 0:59:28.252 --> 0:59:30.722 Hélène Goulet Ça fait probablement que l'université aussi me. That probably makes the university me too. 0:59:31.652 --> 0:59:33.852 Gigi Kaur Alors, les couples qui s'échangent, c'est ça? So, swapping couples, right? 0:59:34.492 --> 0:59:42.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, des échanges de coups Ninja, qui organise un groupe actif, puis tout le monde qui était, se présentait au party. Yes, exchanges of Ninja blows, which organizes an active group, then everyone who was, showed up at the party. 0:59:42.242 --> 0:59:45.42 Hélène Goulet Puis je pense que ça se passait même au parti. Then I think it even happened at the party. 0:59:45.52 --> 0:59:47.632 Hélène Goulet J'ai aucune idée parce que je ne l’ai pas fait, mais. I have no idea because I haven't done it, but. 0:59:49.372 --> 0:59:54.992 Hélène Goulet C'était en tout cas pour moi, ça a toujours été représenté. At least for me, it was always represented. 1:0:0.672 --> 1:0:2.362 Hélène Goulet Un manque de spiritualité? A lack of spirituality? 1:0:4.932 --> 1:0:5.692 Gigi Kaur Qu'est-ce que vous voulez dire? What's that supposed to mean? 1:0:4.942 --> 1:0:11.572 Hélène Goulet Pour moi, pour moi, Ben c'est, c'est très personnel, c'est une opinion, je suis d'accord, tu sais, ce n’est peut-être pas vrai. For me, for me, Ben it's, it's very personal, it's an opinion, I agree, you know, it may not be true. 1:0:11.582 --> 1:0:23.992 Hélène Goulet Mais pour moi, c'est vrai que quand on a une vie spirituelle, pas religieuse, là à la messe, ce n’est pas ça que je veux dire, une vie spirituelle, qu'on est dans un cheminement de croissance personnelle et spirituelle. But for me, it's true that when you have a spiritual life, not a religious one, that's not what I mean, a spiritual life, that you're on a journey of personal and spiritual growth. 1:0:24.52 --> 1:0:29.482 Hélène Goulet Allô que cette sorte de chose là vous intéresse vraiment pas comme on est. Hello that sort of thing really doesn't interest you the way we are. 1:0:29.492 --> 1:0:51.332 Hélène Goulet On veut avoir une relation avec quelqu'un, tu sais une relation qui, OK, qui est en accord avec les principes d'amour de tu sais, de d'engagement de, tu sais même maintenant je ne pourrais pas avoir 2 partenaires en même temps, j'en suis incapable. We want to have a relationship with someone, you know a relationship that, OK, that's in line with the principles of love of you know, of commitment of, you know even now I couldn't have 2 partners at the same time, I'm incapable of it. 1:0:51.342 --> 1:0:58.312 Hélène Goulet Puis pourtant, j'ai un enfant, un de mes enfants, qui est bisexuel et polyamour? And yet, I have a child, one of my children, who is bisexual and polyamorous? 1:0:59.772 --> 1:1:1.142 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais qui est très lui? So, you know who's really him? 1:1:3.182 --> 1:1:4.432 Hélène Goulet C'est très ouvert ça. That's very open. 1:1:4.442 --> 1:1:6.372 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il participé à toutes sortes d'affaires. Then he was involved in all kinds of business. 1:1:6.382 --> 1:1:15.832 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je ne mets pas tout savoir parce que je n’ai pas besoin de le savoir, ce n’est pas ma vie à moi, mais je sais que ça existe encore. You know, I don't want to know everything because I don't need to know, it's not my life, but I know it still exists. 1:1:15.842 --> 1:1:20.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, y a un monde dans lequel ça, c'est choses, là arrivent, ça passe. You know, there's a world in which these, these things, these things come, they go. 1:1:22.402 --> 1:1:24.942 Hélène Goulet Ça fait bon, je m'en vais avec ça je pense. That's good, I think I'll leave with that. 1:1:26.692 --> 1:1:27.462 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, hein? No worries, eh? 1:1:24.952 --> 1:1:30.242 Hélène Goulet Je suis sortie du sujet, ouais c'est ça, c'est ça, ça fait que pour moi ça, ça a toujours été. I've gone off topic, yeah that's it, that's it, that's what it's always been for me. 1:1:32.122 --> 1:1:42.772 Hélène Goulet C'est des gens qui a comme un vide à l'intérieur, puis remplisse le vide avec des choses comme ça parce qu'il pense que ça va remplir le vide, mais ça ne remplit pas le vide, puis éventuellement s'en rencontre. It's people who have a kind of emptiness inside them, then fill the emptiness with things like that because they think it'll fill the emptiness, but it doesn't, and then eventually they run into it. 1:1:42.782 --> 1:1:46.992 Hélène Goulet C'est comme remplir le vide avec l'alcool, remplir le vide, une sorte d'addiction. It's like filling the void with alcohol, filling the void, a kind of addiction. 1:1:47.2 --> 1:1:59.422 Hélène Goulet Au fond, c'est une sorte de dépendance à quelque chose qui n’est pas, qui n’est pas bon à long terme, c'est qui n’est pas simple pour la personne humaine à long terme, mais ça c'est une opinion personnelle. Basically, it's a kind of dependence on something that's not, that's not good in the long term, that's not simple for the human being in the long term, but that's a personal opinion. 1:2:3.42 --> 1:2:3.252 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 1:2:0.152 --> 1:2:3.302 Gigi Kaur Ouais, n’y a pas de souci, vous avez droit à votre opinion personnelle, hein? Yeah, don't worry, you're entitled to your own opinion, aren't you? 1:2:10.312 --> 1:2:12.402 Hélène Goulet Ohh, alors elle, c'est ça? Ohh, so that's her, is it? 1:2:3.682 --> 1:2:18.702 Gigi Kaur C'est ça ne veut pas dire que Trudeau éliminé, le Censorship que ne t’as pas le droit de dire que ce que vous voulez, je moi je suis très à cœur avec vous parce que moi je n’aurais pas capable d’avoir 562 personnes, c'est trop, c'est trop. It doesn't mean that Trudeau eliminated the Censorship, that you don't have the right to say what you want, I'm very sympathetic to you because I wouldn't have been able to get 562 people, it's too much, it's too much. 1:2:19.132 --> 1:2:22.192 Gigi Kaur Même avec moi, des fois je suis un peu trop, hein, je suis comme. Even with me, sometimes I'm a bit too much, eh, I'm like. 1:2:21.892 --> 1:2:28.112 Hélène Goulet Ouais tout à fait la vie, elle est la vie est assez ouais, submergeant par moment. Yeah, quite life, it's life is quite yeah, overwhelming at times. 1:2:28.902 --> 1:2:34.782 Gigi Kaur Fait que la spiritualité, je comprends très bien, je suis très d'accord avec vous sur ça mais. The fact that there spirituality, I understand very well, I agree with you on that but. 1:2:36.702 --> 1:2:36.862 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 1:2:34.392 --> 1:2:40.12 Hélène Goulet C'est, j'ai dit à une amie une fois parce qu’après ma séparation, j'ai eu plusieurs partenaires. That's what I told a friend once, because after my separation, I had several partners. 1:2:40.52 --> 1:2:51.452 Hélène Goulet Au fil du temps, c'est à 13 ans, c'est certains qui ont duré plus longtemps que d'autres et je disais à mon ami, j'ai dit, je suis Cyril monogame est. Over time, that's at 13, it's some that lasted longer than others and I said to my friend, I said, I'm Cyril monogamous is. 1:2:52.992 --> 1:2:54.382 Hélène Goulet Sérieux monogames. Serious monogamists. 1:2:54.442 --> 1:2:59.112 Hélène Goulet Rien parce que j'ai été marié pendant très longtemps, 30 ans. Nothing because I've been married for a very long time, 30 years. 1:2:59.542 --> 1:3:10.332 Hélène Goulet Et puis je fais des choses à comprendre puis à vivre après, mais malgré ça, c'était quand même très laisse. And then I do things I have to understand and then live through afterwards, but despite that, it was still very much on the leash. 1:3:10.342 --> 1:3:10.952 Hélène Goulet Pensable? Thinkable? 1:3:10.962 --> 1:3:16.192 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que la personne que j'ai vécu, puis c'était toujours des personnes avec qui j'étais dans une sorte de relation. That's what the person I experienced, and then it was always people with whom I had some kind of relationship. 1:3:16.202 --> 1:3:24.42 Hélène Goulet Ce n’était pas One Night stand de rencontrer dans un bar puis où je n’allais pas de toute façon, mais tu sais, c'était des gens que j'avais rencontrés. It wasn't One Night stand to meet in a bar then where I wasn't going anyway, but you know, it was people I'd met. 1:3:24.52 --> 1:3:37.772 Hélène Goulet Puis avec qui j'avais une relation, ne sais pas nécessairement là le grand amour de ma vie, mais quand même une relation exclusivement monogame de part et d'autre. Then with whom I had a relationship-not necessarily the great love of my life, but an exclusively monogamous relationship on both sides. 1:3:45.922 --> 1:3:49.612 Gigi Kaur Moi, je pense qu'il faut que j'aille applique aussi, il faut l'appeler. I think I'd better go and apply it too, give it a call. 1:3:50.332 --> 1:3:52.142 Hélène Goulet Ouais, monogame en série. Yeah, serial monogamist. 1:3:52.152 --> 1:3:57.512 Hélène Goulet C'est Ben, c'est ça comme je pense qu'en général, la plupart des gens sont ça. That's Ben, that's the way I think most people are. 1:3:57.552 --> 1:4:8.32 Hélène Goulet Des Monogrammes en Syrie, c'est comme on, on reste plus dans des relations qui nous, ils ne sont pas bonnes pour notre croissance, qui ne sont pas bonnes pour notre évolution. Monograms in Syria, it's like we, we stay more in relationships that we, they are not good for our growth, that are not good for our evolution. 1:4:8.42 --> 1:4:8.472 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, puis. You know, then. 1:4:10.442 --> 1:4:11.362 Hélène Goulet Ça c'est bon ça. That's good. 1:4:11.372 --> 1:4:17.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense que c'est une bonne chose, ce n’est pas, tu sais de pas endurer des choses qu’on ne devrait pas durer. I think it's a good thing, it's not, you know not putting up with things you shouldn't. 1:4:17.72 --> 1:4:17.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une bonne chose. This is a good thing. 1:4:20.32 --> 1:4:25.42 Gigi Kaur Mais merci de tout me d'expliquer, répondre à mes questions. But thank you for explaining everything to me and answering my questions. 1:4:25.52 --> 1:4:30.2 Gigi Kaur J'ai eu tellement d'informations, j'ai comme je vous ai dit au milieu de de l'entrevue. I've got so much information, as I told you in the middle of the interview. 1:4:30.12 --> 1:4:37.102 Gigi Kaur Je vous adore parce que je trouve qu'on les similaires moi même si je ne suis pas beaucoup parlé de moi, ce n’est pas une entrevue de moi, c'est plus de vous. I adore you because I think they're similar to me, even though I don't talk much about myself. It's not an interview with me, it's more about you. 1:4:37.312 --> 1:4:45.852 Gigi Kaur Je vois clairement qu'on est parce que des fois quand je parle avec d'autres personnes, je dis toujours à ma old Soul and Young Bury. I can clearly see that we are because sometimes when I talk to other people, I always say to my old Soul and Young Bury. 1:4:46.912 --> 1:4:48.192 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça exactement. Yeah, that's it exactly. 1:4:49.122 --> 1:5:0.322 Gigi Kaur Fait que des fois, quand je pense certaines choses, puis je l'explique, tu sais comment je suis vraiment une grande mère, c'est, ce n’est pas comme je ne peux pas connecter métiers quand je vous vois, je suis comme Okay, je comprends pourquoi je pense de cette manière. Does that sometimes, when I think certain things, then I explain it, you know how I'm really a big mom, it's, it's not like I can't connect trades when I see you, I'm like okay, I understand why I think that way. 1:5:0.952 --> 1:5:10.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est bon parce que c'est peut-être que tu es, c'est, c'est peut-être t'es peut-être pas dans ta première vie, ton âme, mais peut-être pas dans sa première vie. Yeah, it's okay because maybe you are, it's, it's maybe you're not in your first life, your soul, but maybe not in its first life. 1:5:10.462 --> 1:5:13.872 Hélène Goulet Il y a peut-être une autre vie avant, c'est ça? Maybe there's another life before, right? 1:5:13.882 --> 1:5:19.452 Hélène Goulet Je crois ça, moi, personnellement, je crois, je crois, que l'homme peut choisir de revenir. I personally believe that man can choose to come back. 1:5:19.622 --> 1:5:22.692 Hélène Goulet C'est que Ouais, Ben je crois ça. Yeah, well, I think so. 1:5:22.702 --> 1:5:30.352 Hélène Goulet Je sais que ce n’est pas, ce n’est pas une croyance chrétienne populaire, mais de toute façon mes croyances sont tellement évoluées. I know it's not, it's not a popular Christian belief, but anyway my beliefs are so evolved. 1:5:32.102 --> 1:5:35.652 Gigi Kaur Mais c'est ça, c'est la vie, c'est l'évolution, s’est-il faut, il faut évoluer. But that's it, that's life, that's evolution, it's necessary, it's necessary to evolve. 1:5:35.852 --> 1:5:37.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:5:36.2 --> 1:5:38.42 Gigi Kaur Si tu n’évolue pas, ouais. If you don't evolve, yeah. 1:5:39.282 --> 1:5:43.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais exactement tu vois du poids, tu m'as, c'est ça. Yeah, exactly you see weight, you got me, that's it. 1:5:43.342 --> 1:5:49.862 Hélène Goulet C'est si on y va, on n’avance pas, on recule parce qu’on ne peut pas rester statique, c'est, c'est un principe de vie, d'être dynamique alors. It's if you go, you don't go forward, you go back because you can't stay static, it's, it's a principle of life, to be dynamic then. 1:5:50.822 --> 1:5:55.632 Gigi Kaur Ouais alors est-ce que t'es une dernière question? Yeah, so do you have any last questions? 1:5:55.642 --> 1:5:57.162 Gigi Kaur Mais est-ce que vous voulez dire quelque chose d'autre? But is there anything else you'd like to say? 1:5:57.172 --> 1:5:59.192 Gigi Kaur Propos de Yoann les idéologies? Yoann's comments on ideologies? 1:5:59.202 --> 1:6:1.102 Gigi Kaur Vous avez trouvé que vous avez beaucoup d'idées déjà? Have you come up with a lot of ideas yet? 1:6:1.762 --> 1:6:7.952 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai beaucoup dit déjà, puis je voulais expliquer pourquoi je ne voulais pas mettre de photos. I've said a lot already, and then I wanted to explain why I didn't want to put any photos. 1:6:8.42 --> 1:6:21.352 Hélène Goulet Parce qu'avec l'intelligence artificielle maintenant, je trouve que c'est tellement dangereux qu'on utilise notre identité à des mauvaises fins, puis dans mon monde dans lequel j'ai opéré, je suis assez connue. Because with artificial intelligence now, I think it's so dangerous for our identity to be used for the wrong purposes, and then in my world where I've operated, I'm pretty well known. 1:6:21.882 --> 1:6:30.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que c'est un peu nerveuse par rapport à ça, c'est pour ça que je ne voulais pas que ça soit mis sur le site. And that makes me a bit nervous about it, which is why I didn't want to put it on the site. 1:6:31.702 --> 1:6:34.312 Gigi Kaur Site web de Iowa, Ouais. Website of Iowa, Yeah. 1:6:30.62 --> 1:6:43.122 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas, le site vie la vie sur le campus, soit que je n'ai pas d'objection à utiliser mes initiales, puis utiliser le l'enregistrement dans les salles de classe parce que personne ne peut l'associer à qui la personne? I don't know, site life campus life, either I don't mind using my initials, then use the recording in the classrooms because no one can associate it with who the person? 1:6:43.632 --> 1:6:46.252 Hélène Goulet Parce qu’autrement, je trouve qu'il y a beaucoup de risques. Because otherwise, I think there are a lot of risks. 1:6:46.262 --> 1:6:54.62 Hélène Goulet Maintenant, je ne suis pas très active sur les réseaux sociaux non plus parce que je pense ça non plus, je n’ai pas le temps. Now, I'm not very active on social networks either because I don't have the time. 1:6:55.372 --> 1:6:58.162 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes trop engagés dans la Communauté, ce qu'il faut? You're too involved in the Community, what's needed? 1:6:58.62 --> 1:7:1.122 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:7:7.182 --> 1:7:7.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:6:59.842 --> 1:7:8.122 Gigi Kaur Oh mais bon je vous laisserai parce que déjà vous étiez là avec moi pendant 1h je vois clairement sur le. Oh well, I'll leave you to it because you were already there with me for 1 hour I can see clearly on the. 1:7:8.432 --> 1:7:19.722 Gigi Kaur Le petit timer fait que merci énormément si jamais t'as d'autres questions ou si vous voulez faire notre projet avec moi, n'hésitez pas à me contacter en espérant que je peux vous contacter aussi si jamais. The small timer makes that thank you very much if you ever have any other questions or if you want to do our project with me, do not hesitate to contact me hoping that I can contact you too if ever. 1:7:19.602 --> 1:7:23.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, certainement, ça me ferait plaisir de te mieux te connaître. Yes, certainly, I'd love to get to know you better. 1:7:26.282 --> 1:7:26.602 Hélène Goulet Okay? Ok 1:7:30.232 --> 1:7:30.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:7:24.232 --> 1:7:33.372 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, merci beaucoup, puis fait qu’alors je vais couper le brocoli Bing ici fait que c'est ça, c'est top recording. No worries, thank you very much, then fact that then I'll cut the broccoli Bing here makes that's it, it's top recording. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hours, 7 minutes, 33 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goulet, Hélène (interview) Description An account of the resource The 1970s experience : Protest, Activism, Vietnam War, Feminism, 70s Media, UOttawa Campus, Francophone. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 30, 2023 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thomas Boogaart Relation A related resource Goulet, Helene Language A language of the resource French Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Abortion Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Dating Drugs Faculty of Arts Faculty of Law Feminism Gender Generational Differences Marriage Popular Music Queer Religion Sexuality Sports Student Life The Pill University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Price, Rebecca Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Rebecca: Okay, We are recording. All right. So one of the first things that we're talking about is the impact of popular culture. So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles has created a more integrated North American popular culture. So being that uOttawa is a bilingual university, we want to know a bit more about how the Anglophones and the Francophones related together on this. So to get the ball rolling, I'll ask you, um, nowadays, when students have free time, they tend to gravitate towards electronics and social media and such. The seventies didn't have as many electronics. So what, what did you do in your free time? BK: Well, when I was on campus, there was , uh, what’s the building where the cafeteria is that the, you know, the big central building? The library runs off it- Rebecca: Uh, Lamereux? BK: Yeah. And there was a down on the ground floor, like there was kind of a lowered floor with stairs around it. Rebecca: Oh yes! Like kind of a pit in the ground a little bit? BK: Yeah. So we, you know, if you're in between classes, go and grab a coffee and sit there and just strike up conversations. The other was al- just seemed to recall there was always something going on at uh- tables set up with interest groups. I remember the Communist Party having a table and you know, just sort of uh, yeah. So I was more in person gravitating and that was like the university centre, I thought of it that way. Rebecca: I would still say it is for sure. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So your free time was mostly spent with other people, not necessarily by yourself. BK: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: I would say that's very different nowadays, unfortunately. Um, so would you say that that's one of the more popular hangout spots on campus or were there some other spots on or off campus that you remember? BK: Well, you know, it depends. The- I did two degrees at University of Ottawa in the 1970s, so my first degree was Arts and graduated in 76 and the second was in law and the law degree- the law school Fauteux Hall. Once you were in there, like, that was a very different experience. So I would, uh, there’s on the third floor, there's a lounge and free time would be spent in there, we’d be playing bridge, that kind of thing. But it was a lot more, the law school, um, it’s a lot more intense in the sense that you’re- we were 180 students in the first year and we were three groups of um, 60. So I was in Group B and intense friendships with people that were in that group and people were in that year that we, you know, maintain through I mean, it's 50 years later or, less so with people that I was friends with than Arts. So maybe more contacts, but fewer deeper connections. Rebecca: These deeper connections, are they people you crossed paths with professionally after having graduated? BK: Some of them, some of them. And but others just, we’ve just, you know, kept in touch. We spent a lot of time together and it's law school is it's very- it's it's super hard. Rebecca: So you really bonded. BK: So you sort of bond over that. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, did you attend any live events, theater or music or anything during your time there? BK: Um, I don't really recall live event- not theater. I don't think that, but certainly dances. There were dances that were organized. Rebecca: Put on by the school or like the student union? BK: Student Union. I don't know who, but I remember there were dances with, uh, I can remember with foreign students so that foreign students would get to meet, uh, people. But we did a lot like in the seventies. I would say that was a big feature. Like if you wanted to go out, maybe now you go to clubs there and then it was discotheques. So dancing was a big thing. And you know, it was quite a normal thing to get dressed up and go dancing. And there were dances at the university. Rebecca: Wow, that's fabulous. What kind of- what did dressed up mean in the seventies? BK: Uh, well, I think pretty much what it means now. You put on a dress- Rebecca: Yeah, like you had on party attire kind of thing? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Wow. All right, So, again, being that uOttawa is a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated would you say it was between English and French in that were you in the same classes, programs or after school things? BK: I think it was more after school things. So the group that I hung out with when- in undergrad was definitely a very bilingual group. So there were lots of I'd say there is a core of maybe 12 people that I hung out with a lot and the half of them were Francophone and from northern Ontario, I seem to recall, because I know I visited up on Blind River with one after graduation. So and that- we attended our activities where we'd go out, you know, there was a jazz club and that kind of thing. Things down in the market. Um, there was a club called Le Hibou, the Owl, Le Hibou, um, and was that on campus or close to campus? And uh, the- that was definitely a place where there was live music and, you know, different different groups and things like that Rebecca: Did you feel while you were on campus that you were in the middle of a campus or that you were really integrated with downtown? BK: When I came to OttawaU, this’ a roundabout way of answering the question. Um, I had done a year of Cegep in Montreal. I was at Marianopolis College and my dad was in the military, and so he was transferred from the base at Saint Hubert to the National Headquarters, Defence Headquarters, and I could have stayed in Montreal and finished my program at the um, Marianopolis and then I probably would have gone to McGill because it was kind of right across the street. And, you know, that would have been a completely different path. But I was a little bit intimidated about living in Montreal on my own, so I was 17, turning 18. The, cause- Marianopolis didn't have dorms, so I came to Ottawa and I went to the campus at Carleton and I went to the campus at OttawaU. And I thought Carleton was awful. I was just I just yeah, I thought, Oh my gosh, there's nobody here. There's all these tunnels. Like, where are we? It's like, Yeah, cold. I just did not have a good vibe about Carleton and but with OttawaU I just felt, Oh yeah, this place is cool, it's lively. There's lots of people around. There’s English and French. It just sounds. And I said, no, that’s where I want to go. Rebecca: Wow. That is very, very interesting. I see what you mean about the difference between Carleton and uOttawa, for sure. It's definitely a draw. Um, so sort of in a similar vein, going back to the bilingualism were- nowadays what I find when I look across the campus, I would say that most English students are not bilingual, whereas most Francophones are bilingual. Would you say that was the same case back in the seventies? BK: Uh, yes. Pro- probably. But, you know, it was a smaller place and I don't know that the lines were quite as well drawn. So again, I would contrast the arts experience with the law school. The- then I think as now, you could take the same course in either language and you could write in your own language. Rebecca: Okay, right. BK: So you wouldn’t be- so the idea was you wouldn't be docked marks. But I did feel like, Oh, I don't know. Do I really trust that? You know, what if the professor just, you know, I'm writing in English and they might not be, um, they might be prejudiced against me and I might not get as good a grade because I wanted to go to law school so my grades were important to me. But I think that because the crowd that I hung out with was bilingual, I don't know that I noticed that. But I do know that I had classmates that did not get their degree because you had to pass a test in the other language. So it was mandatory. And so there was- everybody had to- whether you were Francophone or Anglophone, you had to prove your bilingualism before you could get your degree. And so maybe that wasn't the case I got at law school. So my experience in law school was like, no, I lost a lot of my French, um, that was all in English. It was very much more siloed that way. The civil law and the common law students did not mingle together. There wasn't a French common law program, that started the year after I graduated. So it's but I think it was that was a really good way of enforcing this is a bilingual campus. And what they did- what you did was you wrote an aptitude- like you did a test and you were streamed. So you had to take a class in your second language and you had to pass it. So when I took the test and I had just come from Montreal and I was bilingual and I just was put in this class and was just like, Oh my God, these people don't know anything. They have no idea. This is nuts. And so I went and complained at the Office of Second Languages and I said, you know, and I was speaking to the lady in French, and she said, but you're bilingual. I said, yeah, but look at the class it put me in. And so she looked at my score on the whatever the placement test, the proficiency test, it was pretty bad. And I said, well, it doesn't reflect my ability, so put me in a better class. And that was- and I remember that class really well, was a really, um, our teacher was from France. It was a small group and you know, so it was good. And you- that was the only requirement in that class passed that class and that was a uh, what I it was an essential to getting their degree, as I recall it. That's how it was. But I know, I know that's how it was. Rebecca: Yeah, wow. I kind of partly wish that that were still the case because I think there's there's quite a divide right now between English and French, and that's really unfortunate. Yeah, we have such an incredible institution, but there is such a separation in a lot of ways. BK: Yeah. And, and maybe my experience would have been different going in as a unilingual anglophone. Rebecca: Mm hmm. That’s true. BK: I might not have been hanging out with the people that I hung out with, so, you know, so my experience might be unique, but. Rebecca: Yeah. So in a similar vein, was there a dating culture between English and French speakers? BK: I don't know that there was a dating culture was the seventies. Rebecca: Okay, okay. BK: We didn't date. Rebecca: You didn't date. BK: I went to clubs and we danced. And out of that, you might meet somebody that you would go out with. But yeah, I don’t know what a dating culture is. Rebecca: Okay, so. But would would French and English people be interested in each other? There wasn't really a a boundary to cross there at all? BK: Well, not in my world. Rebecca: Right. Okay. Yeah. Because you were going into it bilingual around bilingual people- BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So it was just the same. BK: Yeah Rebecca: Okay. Um, so I guess, actually, you've touched on this a little bit. Um, we nowadays use, like, party culture as anything happening outside of the classroom. So how would you describe the, the party culture of the seventies when you were there? BK: Um, oh, I, I mean, apart from the Panda game, I don't think there's anything that's like, what happens now? Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Like house parties or things like that. BK: Well, there'd be house parties for sure, and- but they didn't spill out into the street and cause riots and that kind of stuff. No, there was nothing like it apart from the Panda game. And I think that was pretty much, as I recall, just confined to the Panda game. And and the vicinity. But we would have parties, we would go out, that kind of thing. Rebecca: But was there a sense of rivalry between uOttawa and Carlton at the time? BK: Yes. Yes, Yes. Rebecca: That has that has lasted. Yes. To this day. So taking maybe a bit of a heavier tern. Um, we in our class talk a lot about and hypothesize how students of the seventies felt about the Vietnam War. So how would you describe what the student body thought about the war while you were there? BK: Um, I don't know that the Vietnam War came up a lot in…When they- when I was there. I don't, but I do, um, I'd say in the late sixties was much more of a protest culture and things had- there was a big difference. And as I recall, there's a big difference between what happened in the sixties and what happened in the seventies. And I can remember Professor- one professor saying, no, you know, we were so much more complacent and not activist enough to… Rebecca: Speaking to you as students? BK: As students, yeah, that that you weren’t- that we weren't, you know, we're more self-interested like what kind of jobs we're going to get in that kind of thing. So a lot more establishment than you know- So a professor from the sixties was disappointed in his students in the seventies. The Vietnam War was definitely a feature of my childhood, my dad's military, so, and he had colleagues who fought, who- you know American counterparts who fought in the war. That would be, um, treated terribly when they got back because the war was so unpopular. So that was one aspect. Then there was terrible things, but, you know, it was, um, it was a brutal war and the rightness and wrongness of it is one thing, but it was a brutal war and and it was not, uh, -but I think the protests, race, the Vietnam War, um, I’d say in the seventies, the environmental concerns were definitely that was something I was interested in. And in some respects it's gotten better and in some respects it's gotten worse. Rebecca: Yes. So speaking about the sixties, the sort of rock and roll artists of the time were were promoting various forms of protest. And so do you do you feel for you that rock and roll, when you experienced it in the seventies as a student, was still tied to that sort of against the systems, or was it more just some music you consumed? BK: Music you loved. Rebecca: Okay. Okay. Interesting. Do you feel that your parents generation viewed rock and roll in the seventies the same way, or did it make more of a statement to them? BK: They were mostly just telling me to turn it down. I don't think they had time to think about it. Rebecca: That’s very fair. Yeah, I think I experienced some of that from my parents too. So I guess it goes on and on. Um, so getting a little bit more taboo possibly. So you can answer or not depending on how you feel. But some youth culture voices in the seventies promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent that you know of were drugs available or accessible and campus life? BK: They were very available. Very accessible. And used a lot. Rebecca: Used a lot? Would it be like during classes that people would be on drugs or was it more part of an after school activity? BK: I think would be more of an after school activity. I mean, there may well have been I know for sure there are people with substance abuse issues. Um, that impacted their schooling. And so yeah, there I'm sure there were kids that were stoned in class and, and I’ve had classmates have seen with the shakes when bars not open till 11. So, yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Was there a discussion about danger, about drugs at the time? BK: Uh, yeah. For sure. Rebecca: So there were people who, who had concerns and then some people who not as much or. BK: I don't think we were very different. Rebecca: Okay. Gotcha. BK: Don’t think young people necessarily think about that but in terms of, you know, just say no to drugs, all the. Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. Would- Okay. Yeah. Um, so nowadays a lot of my generation, we think about the seventies, it's, it's sort of a groovy sort of tripping kind of space and time. Um, were psychedelic drugs a part of the, the culture on campus at all? BK: Well, LSD, these are the drugs, LSD, cocaine and marijuana. That was pretty much it. Rebecca: Okay. And when you say it was like accessible on campus, was that through there was like a hook up that people knew about and students or like how how dis it integrate itself- BK: Well there wasn't a cannabis store like there is now. Rebecca: Absolutely. Okay. All right. So that's everything that I've got on on that sort of section. So moving on to our second theme, which is the female experience on campus. So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the second wave of feminism, and that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early seventies sought to break down some gender barriers. Um, does that resonate with your experience at the University of Ottawa? BK: Mm hmm. It does. Rebecca: Yeah. Well, you were a female in law school then. Did you feel isolated in that or…? BK: No, We were a precisely one third of the class, so if we were 180, there were, um, 60 women in the first year. And the- by the end of the third year, we'd lost a few women and a few men, but more, I think perhaps more women than men. So certainly the being, uh, going to law school as a woman was not a standardized route. And the- when I left law school and when I was in practice, I would say I saw that more, um, you know, but there were women in the law groups. There were you know, there was some bonding. But I honestly, I enjoyed dating. So and I don't date women. So that was more it it really was like, hey, this is a lots of single men here. Rebecca: So it's sort of exciting to be sitting amongst the sea of them. BK: Well, yeah, it was fun there. I can say it was there was always… Rebecca: You had your pick of the litter with them then. So did you feel that there were programs or clubs or activities where women were either less present or less welcome? BK: Oh, hockey for sure. Yeah. And that was a barrier. And I think that's one of the things like this idea that, you know, there was a hockey intramural hockey and that would be something that would exclude women. And then there were a few women that played hockey. And it's not so it's not like it is now. Like that, I think was one of the barriers. So that missing out in the locker room talk or the golf talk, that kind of thing. And that's when golf, not when we were students, but later on the, uh, it was I would say it persists even now, my graduation from or my the day I was called to the bar was April 13th, 1981, and there's a group of classmates, all male, that meet every April 13th at the Prest- at the Prescott, where we used to go after the bar and, you know, sometimes I get invited, sometimes I don’t. I'm just like, Guys, come on, it's 50 years on. Let's just start- Rebecca: So still to this day you weren’t invited. Or you are or aren’t. BK: I ah, yeah. I mean, I could always myself remember think, you know, email Henry and say what's what time I'm going to be there. At our 25th anniversary and I was the only woman that showed up and I went to the bathroom and I'm calling classmates. Come on, get down here. Rebecca: Wow. Wow. That almost shocks me quite a bit that that is still something that persists now. BK: I don't think it's and I don't think it's a conscious thing. Rebecca: Of course. Right. BK: It’s not a conscious Not a conscious thing, but yeah, it does. Rebecca: Wow. BK: So so those guys that formed a tight group, right. Hung around still, you know, they went on fishing trips and that kind of stuff. But I personally wouldn't be interested in going fishing, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. But, you know, and maybe there are groups of women. I've been in a book club for 40 years, so that's outside of the but with classmates from law school. And when we graduated thought, well, we need to- And honestly, if a man tried to join us… No no no no… Rebecca: Okay. So you made your own space, as women, to be together. BK: Well yeah. That’s right. And so even though like many of us that went to law school together and some of the husbands may want to sit down and chat, yeah no, and we all know we all went to school together, but this is a woman only space. Rebecca: Yes. Wow. What do you think that that sort of- did you feel that sort of bond with women while you were doing your studies there? And did you rely on each other just being there or were you really doing your thing? BK: I was just doing my own thing. Rebecca: Yeah. Love that. BK: Well, that I put my head down and work. Yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel while you were in the classrooms that as a woman or looking at other women, that they were less likely to raise their hand or be called upon or or things like that? BK: Um, no, I don't think we would tolerate that. But what we did have was at law school in particular, one criminal law professor who was just vile. Yeah. Rebecca: Towards women. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Like in, in his treatment or in his thoughts? BK: Well it was his treatment, his examples, you know, talking about rape and where there's a lot of sexual assault is a huge part of the workload here it’s amazing, it’s discouraging. It's depressing how many cases there are. I've heard someone describe it as, you know, like there's a war against women and children that people just don't even know about. Talk about domestic violence and, you know well you know, women hit men, you know, not what we're seeing. Yeah. Rebecca: Wow, that’s interesting. Did you ever have a moment in your law studies where it was too hard, or was that always just you decided you were going to law school? You would be a lawyer, You would. You'd stick with it. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. What made law school the path? BK: Uh when I was a teenager, I you know, you did- think in Winnipeg we did aptitude test. What do you want to do? So you had to start to choose your courses. You know what stream were you going to go into and those were a bunch of potential careers. I got teaching, social work. And then I thought, well, law would be, um, you’d have more power to really effect change or help people or, you know, resolve difficulties. And I think that's turned out to be true. Rebecca: Yeah. Did it end up being harder than you thought it would be? BK: I was 19 when I got my B.A. and 22 when I got my LLB, so I just put my head down and worked. It was hard for sure. It was hard in undergrad because I did six courses at a time. So we talk about free time. I did not have a lot of it. And yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel like being so head down in your studies you had been missing out on some of the social aspects? BK: Probably. Oh, I knew. Rebecca: That didn't affect you. BK: Well, I'm a pretty sociable person. You probably have gathered that by now. Rebecca: Yes. BK: I mean a large family. So it- uh, and I would go out pretty much every night. So no, I don't think it made a big difference. But I also was was working hard. Yeah. Rebecca: How did you maintain that school life balance? Like were you tired? BK: I suppose. But I was also young. Rebecca: Yes. BK: Yeah. No, I think the the, the around exam times was very, very intense. And usually by the end of an exam period, about the only thing that I could eat without being sick was scrambled eggs. Just yeah. Rebecca: Right. Were you living at home while you were there or? BK: I lived at home when I was doing my undergrad and then my parents- and my first year of law school. And then my parents- dad got transferred to Prince Edward Island, so got an apartment on Cumberland Street. Rebecca: How did that- did that have any effect on the way you experienced university? BK: Oh, for sure. Being on campus was I mean, where I lived on Cumberland Street, we couldn't be any closer than the next year. I moved to Somerset, so it was a bit more of a hike. I suppose it was faster to get to classes and that kind of thing. Rebecca: Did you feel like being on your own and living closer to campus, you felt more integrated in the culture of the university? BK: I don't think it made a difference that way. Rebecca: You were head down working. Okay. So I'm going to move to a bit of a different topic. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning your generation had rebelled against a lot of the values of your parents generation. Do you find that to be true? BK: Well, I think there were you know, certainly if somebody was if people were living together, you know, if a couple decide to live together generally it was the code you could not tell their parents and their parents very rarely knew that they were shacked up. It was a term that we used, and I don't think that's the case anymore. But I think there was. And that- but I think other forms of rebellion, probably more on the sex than anything, drugs maybe be more accessible, I think. But whether it was drugs or my parents generation was alcohol, it was still a substance, mind altering substance. So is it more rebellious to use drugs than to drink? Drinking would have been more in line with them, but either way, you look at it. Yeah. Rebecca: Right. So did- were these topics that kids would have talk to their parents about or was it- BK: I would never in a million years talk to my parents about that. No. Rebecca: Okay. Do you think it was because they were your parents or because of the thoughts that they had had? BK: We just never would have talked to our parents about that. It was just not expected. Like I could call my dad anytime and he would come and pick me up. And would never make a comment about what state I was in. You know, if I was inebriated or whatever. But the- and I just when I was 18, I just stopped using any drugs at all because I just I you know, I could drink and I could be just pretty much the same as I am now, just even more talkative. But drugs does something to you and sort of just like, no, I'm not who I am, so I'm not going to to do that. Rebecca: So your experience was not actually that it aided to reaching a higher level of anything. It was impeding your ability to be you. BK: Me. Yeah. Rebecca: Do you feel like your peers felt the same way about that? BK: Well, never talked about it. Rebecca: Okay, interesting. Um, so to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to to mobilize for a more just society or a change socially or, or was that not really a topic at hand? BK: Well, I you know, I think that there were definitely issues. I mean, abortion and was one, having access to safe abortion was an issue. And I had friends, you know, we went down to the states, come back on a bus from New York, bleeding and in pain and suffering. So I think that there was more agitation over that. Like, I think that was definitely a cause. That was a concern. Rebecca: And so were you or was there demonstrations or protests or was there a culture at the university of speaking about things? BK: I think we spoke about things, but I don't remember protests. Honestly, I don't think that was a feature very much in the seventies. Rebecca: Right. Okay. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so we've talked about this a little bit, but maybe elaborating a little bit more. To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions and values were were outdated? BK: Well, I think maybe like I said, I alluded to it on the, you know, the sexual front relation, that kind of relationship. But I don’t- yeah, I don't know. I guess you could watch TV shows from the seventies like the All in the Family, that didn’t- that wasn't my experience with my family. My mom was politically active and she if you were talking to her and she was born in the thirties, she was more politically active than I was. So she's I've got pictures of her at protests and that kind of thing. So but I didn't have time for that, because I was studying. Rebecca: Do you think if you hadn't been in such an intensive program, it would have shifted the way you looked at social dynamics on the campus? BK: No, no. Rebecca: Um, do you feel like your generation's views on marriage and what it meant to build a family were were changing compared to generations before? BK: Possibly. I mean, I do know that we would have very intense discussions about the role of women and the um- so when I was married and raising my kids, I really felt it was important that my then husband spend equal amount of time, that there is an equitable division that, you know, he could take kids to doctor's appointments as well as I could. And not everybody would feel that way. I see a very different path now. I find that young women are- I find it discouraging. That I hire a woman and and then she comes and she's afraid to say that she's pregnant. And I think well, that's not what we were fighting for. We had terrible maternity benefits. I lost a job from having family, you know, saying you're more devoted to your kids than you are to this work. Well, what are you talking about? My billings are great. All that- you know, that’s just wrong. So, you know, I think that that’s- and my career did not suffer over that. But yeah, I feel like there's more now. My observation is that there's like a going back and that people aren't fighting as hard to have a good career and family. Rebecca: Hm, yeah. So do you have a hope that that pendulum will swing back to the causes that you guys were so invested in? BK: Well, I think it'll swing back when women realize that they're being subjugated again. Rebecca: Because it's happening quieter than it had been before. BK: And with more willing participation. You know, it's great to say, you know, my goal in life is to make a nice house and raise kids and have all the time to drive kids to a soccer game or whatever. It's a whole other thing than when you find yourself alone and without the means to support yourself and your kids. And when your kids leave home, does that mean that you’re, you know, what your- if that's your your only goal. Yeah. So I feel like that's been really important. Well, I know this, it's been important to me to make a contribution, and the work that I do is I can see the impact of that on Canadians. I can see the impact of that, on how the court works. And, and my kids are great. Rebecca: So it worked. BK: So it worked! But it's a lot of work. It’s really hard and you have to be conscious and intentional all the time and you have to think. And you know, there were times when the boys were little, I'd go to bed and just feeling sick to my stomach. I was so tired, you know. And, uh. Rebecca: Do you feel like your partner had felt the same way? BK: Oh, probably not. Rebecca: Right, okay. So it was even as it could be but there was still… BK: Yeah. Rebecca: There’s still roles. There were still roles. But that probably, and I know still exist today. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so was there, and if so, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as the most out of whack that needed fixing? BK: Well, I think it was women's rights and, and my 20 year old self is surprised to hear my 67 year old self saying that. But, you know, like looking back on it. The sexual harassment that we put up with, you know, from professors from I've had, you know, uh, it was creepy and gross. And I think that, you know, hopefully that's better. Rebecca: Yeah, I would hope. I would hope so. I hope so. Do you feel that when you looked around at the men around you that they were seeing the same things that you had been seeing as a woman? BK: Oh, probably not. Yeah, But, you know, I had good friends who were men and, you know, we- but it was instructive- But one of- and this is varying from the seventies but many of the products. So when I was practicing law and I was in a- representing some clients, the men that were, and they were all men, construction workers and the company that they were working for had gone bankrupt. So there's a thing called construction leans and the- it's a whole scheme to make sure that people get paid. So the first people that get paid are the workers. Then, you know, it's between the banks and the the different lenders and people. So this was a construction project, a building project. And so in this settlement and things are you're with a judge and you've got all the lawyers and you have clients and it's big tables, formal thing and just divvying up the assets. And I was pregnant with my second child and looking around the room, I think I am the only woman here and I'm in this day and I just say, you. Then I thought, Wow. And my clients are the only ones getting money. So I think, yes! One of my classmates was in the room and so we met up afterwards, you know, at a social gathering. And he says, yeah, I was looking around the room and I was just thinking, huh, [she’s] the only one, only woman in this room. I wonder if she feels uncomfortable. And I said, I did notice the fact that I was the only woman. So it's so hopefully that's better. And, you know, I'll look at it from 1990 when Chief Justice Dixon retired and I went to this big retirement like ballroom kind of thing at the Chateau Laurier, and it was just a sea of white men, middle aged. And, you know, I think and I wonder if I'll see a difference. Then when Chief Justice McLaughlin retired in 2017 and a similar big ballroom thing, and it was a much more diverse crowd. And so when we talked about that and then you know that the women men thing, I think that was a big thing for me. But then the racial aspect we haven’t talked about that at all. But I would say that was another feature of diversity that yeah. Rebecca: So speaking on that a little bit, when you looked around campus, was there a lot of racial diversity at the time? BK: To a certain extent, but I would say mostly there were a lot of students from Africa, from the Francophone countries Rebecca: Oh okay, right. That makes sense to me. Okay. Did you see any discrimination happening against them or was, were you so doing your thing that it wasn't really part of what you witnessed there. BK: Probably wouldn't have been what I witnessed, and I think it was more like my interactions were mostly at dances. Cause I like dancing, so. Rebecca: Were your dances- this is of my own curiosity. Did- were there like dance moves like? BK: Yeah, you know that the 1970s there was a whole music called disco. Rebecca: Yes. BK: And there were dances, the hustle, the bump. There was all kinds of. Yeah. Rebecca: So you would do the hustle? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Oh, that's amazing. BK: I know. And it was great. And so this is like, if you want to go back to my school and you starting in the sixties in gym class, we would do- learn dances and, in Winnipeg one of the I remember we had to learn the polka and that was like essential for going to socials. You had to know how to polka. So it was actually built into the school curriculums. But every school that I ever went to, you know, once you get to like, I guess grade six or so, grade seven, I guess grade seven, we would have on Fridays once a month, maybe more often sock hops after school and you take off your shoes and you dance, sock hoppy, and then that when you got to high school, there were regular dances. And I can remember Mum, uh, one time was my good friend came over and Mum would sew us into our dresses so our bra straps, wouldn't show. Rebecca: Wow. BK: Or maybe she had other reasons for sewing us into our dresses, but… Rebecca: Excellent point! Oh, my goodness. That's amazing to hear because the dances that I've experienced are mostly people standing in the gym talking to each other. And there isn't a- there is no dancing. BK: Well, and we used to like in high school in Winnipeg, they- I went to because of Dad's career, I lived all over but there was really regimented. Like if you didn't have a dance partner, it didn't matter. You would line up in rows so you'd be dancing opposite somebody. So if you were standing up against the wall, we called them wallflowers, it was because you wanted to. But there was no reason not to be in there and dancing. And it was just, when it was the slow dances. And then of course, you would have to pair up with somebody. But and that could be a bit more awkward if you didn't find anybody but no, definitely it was. And I noticed that from my sons, like they were never, [son’s name] was a little more involved in student culture and in high school, but the dances were kind of few and far between. And and that was really a fun thing because it was just kind of innocuous and innocent and, you know, Yeah. But me and my friends still, like, of one group of friends where you clear out a space and we put on the music and dance. Rebecca: Oh, my goodness. Are you listening to music now or? BK: More Abba. And.. Rebecca: Yes! And who, who were the who were the ones of the time for you? BK: The of the bands that I liked. Well, loved The Who, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, ABBA was always very entertaining. Um, Doobie Brothers. I don't know. There's a lot. Rebecca: Excellent. BK: Yeah. Bee Gees were great. Oh, so you got to start up dancing. Rebecca: I know! I know. BK: And how are you going to do that? Rebecca: How am I going to do that? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: I’ll figure it out. BK: Okay. Rebecca: Figure it out. I'll host a sock hop. So, I’m sad to leave this conversation, but I do have to get back to politics. Did you feel while you were at the university looking at the government, did it feel fair and responsive to the citizens needs? Did you feel heard even if action wasn't necessarily taken? BK: I honestly don't think I've ever gave that much thought, you know. Rebecca: No problem. BK: I mean, there was big constitutional negotiations going on that culminated in the Constitution Act of 18- of 1982. So, you know, definitely. Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Um, I want to hop into sort of another topic that we've touched a little bit. So cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the seventies. Do you agree with that statement? BK: Yes. Rebecca: Okay. Can you elaborate a bit more about what that meant? BK: Well, if you didn't have to worry about being pregnant, that was a liberating effect. And the abortion, though, I mean, I would that might have been later on like it just I don't think that access to abortion was particularly widespread. So it I think I'd say looking back on it now, I think men have taken it- well we talk about men and women relationships. And I know that there are many different forms, but we're just talking that gender normative, heterosexual straight way. I think that's led to women being treated more poorly. Rebecca: Okay. BK: Yeah, I think it started out a little bit more equal. And I my observation now is like, huh. Rebecca: Why do you think that is? BK: I don't know. Why are women letting themselves be taken advantage of? Rebecca: That’s true. That is a big part of it. BK: I kind of think it is. Rebecca: I agree. Yeah. Um.. BK: Because it's hard. Rebecca: Yeah, it's hard to be the one that always has to stay powerful. BK: Yeah. Yeah, right. Rebecca: You can't relax into your being because you have to be a strong one. Have you felt that in your career or was being strong and owning your power just always an easy part of you? BK: Oh, no, I wouldn't say that was always an easy part of me. But, and confidence comes with experience and age. Rebecca: There you go. That's true. BK: I have plenty of it now so. Both, experience and age. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so I want to hop into something you touched on a little bit, but if it's anything that you don't want to answer and you're uncomfortable with, then we'll skip the section. But it's talking a little bit more about sexuality and harassment. If you're comfortable, I'll ask you a couple of questions about that. BK: Sure. Rebecca: Okay. So many universities today have many policies and rules and regulations about sexual harassment. To what extent did you find the university monitored social events or mixture- mixers or campus experience at all, specifically for women? BK: Oh, uh completely nonexistent. As I recall. Rebecca: Did- was that an anger that you had that that there wasn't more monitoring? BK: I had an incident where a professor, uh, came close to raping me and I had nowhere to turn. And I'm pissed off about that. At the time, all we could do was you know I told my girlfriends what happened, and, you know, I had- the only recourse I had was, well, if I had to meet with him I took a girlfriend and we just kind of glare at him and that was it. But I would hope now… Rebecca: In my experience it’s different, Yeah. BK: You’d be able to say, okay- Rebecca: Something happened here. BK: Something happened here. And you know. Rebecca: So, is that something that you still think about? BK: Well, it's obviously, yeah, because I'm bringing it up. But it is. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this, even to do this interview, which is to think, well, maybe that's something that was silenced then and- Rebecca: Doesn’t have to be now. BK: Yeah, yeah. Rebecca: When you- in your- I don't know, professionally. Do you see a lot of those experiences happening now or is that not something that comes across to you at all? BK: Well, in my position, yeah. I mean it was very- I’m senior executive here and so the sexual harassment is definitely a lot less than it was. And I think we have better systems in place to to address anything that- behaviours that are problematic. And it's it's not a big part of what goes on. So. Rebecca: Okay. Um, our generation is very interested in the free love movement. Um, what was the perception of premarital sex at the University of Ottawa in the seventies? BK: Well, lots of people were doing it, so yeah. Rebecca: It was par for the course. It was just what was happening and was it just sort of happening? Was there an encouragement for it as a rebellion or? BK: I don't think people needed much encouragement. Rebecca: So was just it was just freedom. Do you feel like that was different from your parents generation? BK: Probably. But I think that comes back to birth control because I know I did talk to my mom about it and she would just say, Oh, you know, every month everybody would be worried. And if you got pregnant, you'd have to get married, you know, like, yeah, to have a baby out of wedlock, which is like, well, the most awful thing and. Rebecca: Right. Okay. And that was a conversation that you had with your mother. So that was more a topic that you were free to talk about? BK: I was free to talk to my parents about anything, but we just it honestly never would have occurred to talk to them about…Yeah. It just was different. I talk to my kids about more things and just like, Why are you telling me this? I don't want to know. Rebecca: Do you feel like you ever did that with your parents? BK: Told them stuff they didn't want to know? No, because they would just keep it to myself! Rebecca: Right. And you don't feel like that’s happening now. BK: No. Yeah.Why are you asking me to help edit this essay? I've already been to school. Rebecca and BK: I don't need to do it again. Rebecca: Very true. That’s what I tell my sister when she wants me to give her help. Anyway, um. Yeah. So I guess this kind of talked about this a little bit, but do you feel like your parents generation worried about you guys having premarital or do they maybe not have known that it was happening? BK: Or they weren't that clued out. No, no, I think yeah. No, I don't know. Rebecca: All right. BK: Don’t think it was an issue. Rebecca: That has all the questions that I have. BK: Awesome. Rebecca: Do you have anything else that you want to mention while you have the microphone? BK: While I have the mic, you know, it was two very different experiences on the campus and in the seventies and two different programs. And, uh, but I still think that that initial instinct I had to go to OttawaU was the right one. Yeah. Rebecca: Awesome. Transcription Translation Rebecca : D'accord, nous enregistrons. Nous sommes en train d'enregistrer. L'une des premières choses dont nous parlons est l'impact de la culture populaire. Les historiens de la culture soutiennent que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une université bilingue, nous voulons en savoir un peu plus sur la façon dont les francophones et les anglophones ont collaboré dans ce domaine. De nos jours, lorsque les étudiants ont du temps libre, ils ont tendance à se tourner vers l'électronique, les médias sociaux, etc. Dans les années 70, il n'y avait pas autant d'électronique. Alors, que faisiez-vous pendant votre temps libre ? BK : Eh bien, quand j'étais sur le campus, il y avait, euh, quel est le bâtiment où se trouve la cafétéria qui est, vous savez, le grand bâtiment central ? La bibliothèque en dépend... Rebecca : Euh, Lamereux ? BK : Oui. Et il y avait une descente au rez-de-chaussée, une sorte de plancher abaissé avec des escaliers autour. Rebecca : Oh oui ! Comme une sorte de fosse dans le sol, un peu ? BK : Oui. Alors nous, vous savez, si vous êtes entre deux cours, allez prendre un café et asseyez-vous là et engagez la conversation. L'autre chose, c'est que je me souviens qu'il y avait toujours quelque chose qui se passait à des tables organisées par des groupes d'intérêt. Je me souviens que le Parti communiste avait une table et vous savez, juste une sorte de euh, ouais. Je gravitais donc davantage en personne et c'était comme le centre universitaire, c'est ainsi que je voyais les choses. Rebecca : Je dirais encore que c'est le cas. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Vous passiez donc votre temps libre avec d'autres personnes, pas nécessairement seul. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Je dirais que c'est très différent de nos jours, malheureusement. Euh, diriez-vous que c'est l'un des endroits les plus populaires sur le campus ou y a-t-il d'autres endroits sur le campus ou en dehors dont vous vous souvenez ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, cela dépend. J'ai obtenu deux diplômes à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70, donc mon premier diplôme était en arts et j'ai obtenu mon diplôme en 76 et le second était en droit et le diplôme de droit - la faculté de droit Fauteux Hall. Une fois que vous y étiez, c'était une expérience très différente. Au troisième étage, il y a un salon et on y passait son temps libre, on jouait au bridge, ce genre de choses. Mais c'était beaucoup plus, l'école de droit, euh, c'est beaucoup plus intense dans le sens où nous étions 180 étudiants en première année et nous étions trois groupes de euh, 60. J'étais donc dans le groupe B et j'ai noué des amitiés intenses avec des gens qui étaient dans ce groupe et des gens qui étaient dans cette année-là et que nous entretenons, vous savez, 50 ans plus tard, moins avec les gens avec qui j'étais ami qu'avec ceux des Arts. Il y a donc peut-être plus de contacts, mais moins de liens profonds. Rebecca : Ces liens plus profonds sont-ils le fait de personnes que vous avez rencontrées professionnellement après avoir obtenu votre diplôme ? BK : Certains d'entre eux, certains d'entre eux. Et d'autres, nous avons juste, vous savez, gardé le contact. Nous avons passé beaucoup de temps ensemble et l'école de droit, c'est très... c'est très dur. Rebecca : Vous vous êtes donc vraiment rapprochés. BK : C'est ainsi que vous vous rapprochez. C'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous assisté à des spectacles, à des pièces de théâtre, à des concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre pendant votre séjour ? BK : Euh, je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'événements en direct - pas de théâtre. Je ne pense pas, mais certainement des danses. Il y avait des danses organisées. Rebecca : Organisé par l'école ou par l'association des étudiants ? BK : L'association des étudiants. Je ne sais pas qui, mais je me souviens qu'il y avait des danses avec, euh, je me souviens avec des étudiants étrangers pour que les étudiants étrangers puissent rencontrer, euh, des gens. Mais nous avons fait beaucoup de choses comme dans les années soixante-dix. Je dirais que c'était une caractéristique importante. Si vous vouliez sortir, vous alliez peut-être maintenant dans des clubs, mais à l'époque, c'était des discothèques. La danse était donc très présente. Et vous savez, il était tout à fait normal de s'habiller et d'aller danser. Il y avait des soirées dansantes à l'université. Rebecca : Wow, c'est fabuleux. Quel genre de... que signifiait être habillé dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, eh bien, je pense que c'est à peu près ce que cela signifie aujourd'hui. Vous mettez une robe... Rebecca : Oui, comme si vous aviez une tenue de soirée ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Wow. D'accord. Donc, comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une institution bilingue, à quel point diriez-vous qu'il y a eu intégration linguistique entre l'anglais et le français, c'est-à-dire que vous étiez dans les mêmes classes, les mêmes programmes ou les mêmes activités parascolaires ? BK : Je pense que c'était plus après l'école. Le groupe avec lequel je traînais quand j'étais étudiant était vraiment un groupe très bilingue. Je dirais qu'il y avait un noyau de 12 personnes avec lesquelles je traînais beaucoup et la moitié d'entre elles étaient francophones et du nord de l'Ontario, si je me souviens bien, parce que je sais que j'ai visité Blind River avec l'une d'entre elles après l'obtention de mon diplôme. Nous participions à nos activités et nous sortions, vous savez, il y avait un club de jazz et ce genre de choses. Il y avait des choses au marché. Il y avait un club qui s'appelait Le Hibou, le Owl, Le Hibou, et c'était sur le campus ou près du campus ? Et euh, le... c'était vraiment un endroit où il y avait de la musique live et, vous savez, différents groupes et des choses comme ça Rebecca : Lorsque vous étiez sur le campus, aviez-vous l'impression d'être au milieu d'un campus ou d'être vraiment intégré au centre-ville ? BK : Quand je suis arrivé à l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est une façon détournée de répondre à la question. J'avais fait une année de cégep à Montréal. J'étais au collège Marianopolis et mon père était dans l'armée, il a donc été transféré de la base de Saint-Hubert au quartier général national, au quartier général de la Défense, et j'aurais pu rester à Montréal et terminer mon programme à Marianopolis et ensuite je serais probablement allé à McGill parce que c'était juste de l'autre côté de la rue. Et, vous savez, cela aurait été un chemin complètement différent. Mais j'étais un peu intimidée à l'idée de vivre seule à Montréal, alors j'avais 17 ans et j'allais avoir 18 ans. Marianopolis n'avait pas de dortoirs, alors je suis venu à Ottawa et je suis allé sur le campus de Carleton et sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa. Et j'ai trouvé que Carleton était horrible. Je me disais : " Oh mon Dieu, il n'y a personne ici. Il y a tous ces tunnels. Où sommes-nous ? C'est comme, ouais, c'est froid. Je n'avais pas une bonne impression de Carleton, mais à l'Université d'Ottawa, je me suis dit : " Oh oui, cet endroit est cool, c'est vivant. Il y a beaucoup de monde. Il y a de l'anglais et du français. Ça sonne juste. Et je me suis dit, non, c'est là que je veux aller. Rebecca : Wow. C'est très, très intéressant. Je vois ce que vous voulez dire au sujet de la différence entre Carleton et l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est certain. C'est définitivement une attraction. Euh, dans le même ordre d'idées, pour revenir au bilinguisme, je dirais que la plupart des étudiants anglophones ne sont pas bilingues, alors que la plupart des francophones sont bilingues. Diriez-vous que c'était la même chose dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, oui. Probablement. Mais, vous savez, c'était un endroit plus petit et je ne sais pas si les lignes étaient aussi bien tracées. Encore une fois, je comparerais l'expérience artistique à celle de l'école de droit. Je pense qu'à l'époque comme aujourd'hui, vous pouviez suivre le même cours dans l'une ou l'autre langue et vous pouviez écrire dans votre propre langue. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Donc vous ne seriez pas... donc l'idée était que vous ne seriez pas pénalisé. Mais je me sentais comme, Oh, je ne sais pas. Est-ce que j'ai vraiment confiance ? Et si le professeur se contentait de dire que j'écris en anglais et qu'il n'a peut-être pas de préjugés à mon égard et que je n'obtiendrais peut-être pas une aussi bonne note parce que je voulais aller à l'école de droit et que mes notes étaient donc importantes pour moi. Mais je pense qu'étant donné que les gens avec qui je traînais étaient bilingues, je ne sais pas si je l'ai remarqué. Mais je sais que certains de mes camarades de classe n'ont pas obtenu leur diplôme parce qu'il fallait passer un examen dans l'autre langue. C'était donc obligatoire. Et donc il y avait... tout le monde devait... que vous soyez francophone ou anglophone, vous deviez prouver votre bilinguisme avant d'obtenir votre diplôme. Ce n'est peut-être pas ce qui s'est passé à la faculté de droit. Mon expérience à la faculté de droit a été la suivante : non, j'ai perdu une grande partie de mon français, tout était en anglais. C'était beaucoup plus cloisonné. Les étudiants en droit civil et en common law ne se mélangeaient pas. Il n'y avait pas de programme de common law en français, qui a commencé l'année après que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme. C'est donc, mais je pense que c'était une très bonne façon de faire respecter le fait que nous sommes un campus bilingue. Et ce qu'ils ont fait - ce que vous avez fait, c'est que vous avez passé un test d'aptitude - comme vous avez passé un test et vous avez été orienté. Vous deviez donc suivre un cours dans votre deuxième langue et vous deviez le réussir. Quand j'ai passé le test, je venais d'arriver de Montréal, j'étais bilingue et on m'a mis dans cette classe et je me suis dit : " Oh mon Dieu, ces gens ne savent rien. Ils n'ont aucune idée. C'est de la folie. Je suis donc allée me plaindre au Bureau des langues secondes et j'ai dit, vous savez, et je parlais à la dame en français, et elle m'a dit, mais vous êtes bilingue. J'ai dit, oui, mais regardez la classe dans laquelle on m'a mis. Et elle a regardé mon score au test de placement, le test de compétence, il était assez mauvais. Et j'ai dit, eh bien, cela ne reflète pas mes capacités, alors mettez-moi dans une meilleure classe. Et c'était... et je me souviens très bien de cette classe, c'était vraiment... notre professeur venait de France. C'était un petit groupe et vous savez, c'était bien. Et vous- c'était la seule exigence dans cette classe, on passait cette classe et c'était un euh, ce que je c'était un essentiel pour obtenir leur diplôme, si je me souviens bien. C'était comme ça. Mais je sais, je sais que c'était comme ça. Rebecca : Oui, wow. J'aimerais que ce soit encore le cas, parce que je pense qu'il y a un fossé entre l'anglais et le français, et c'est vraiment malheureux. Oui, nous avons une institution tellement incroyable, mais il y a une telle séparation à bien des égards. BK : Oui. Et, et peut-être que mon expérience aurait été différente en tant qu'anglophone unilingue. Rebecca : Mm hmm. C'est vrai. BK : Je n'aurais peut-être pas traîné avec les gens avec lesquels je traînais, donc, vous savez, mon expérience est peut-être unique, mais... Rebecca : Oui. Dans le même ordre d'idées, y avait-il une culture des rencontres entre les anglophones et les francophones ? BK : Je ne sais pas s'il y avait une culture des rencontres dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : D'accord, d'accord. BK : Nous ne sommes pas sortis ensemble. Rebecca : Tu n'es pas sorti avec quelqu'un. BK : J'allais dans des clubs et nous dansions. Et à partir de là, vous pouviez rencontrer quelqu'un avec qui vous sortiez. Mais oui, je ne sais pas ce qu'est une culture de la rencontre. Rebecca : D'accord. Mais est-ce que les Français et les Anglais s'intéresseraient l'un à l'autre ? Il n'y avait pas vraiment de frontière à franchir ? BK : Pas dans mon monde. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. Parce que vous avez commencé en étant bilingue et en côtoyant des gens bilingues... BK : Oui. Rebecca : C'était donc la même chose. BK : Oui Rebecca : D'accord. Hum, donc je suppose qu'en fait, vous avez un peu abordé ce sujet. Aujourd'hui, nous utilisons l'expression " culture de la fête " pour désigner tout ce qui se passe en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête dans les années soixante-dix quand vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, oh, je, je veux dire, à part le jeu Panda, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait quoi que ce soit qui soit comme, qu'est-ce qui se passe maintenant ? Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Comme des fêtes à la maison ou des choses comme ça. BK : Eh bien, il y avait des fêtes à la maison, c'est sûr, et... mais elles ne débordaient pas dans la rue et ne provoquaient pas d'émeutes et ce genre de choses. Non, il n'y avait rien de tel à part le jeu du Panda. Et je pense que c'était plutôt, si je me souviens bien, limité au jeu du Panda. Et dans les environs. Mais nous organisions des fêtes, nous sortions, ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Mais y avait-il un sentiment de rivalité entre l'Université d'Ottawa et Carlton à l'époque ? BK : Oui. Oui, oui. Rebecca : Cela a duré. Oui. Jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Donc, en prenant peut-être un ton un peu plus lourd, nous parlons beaucoup dans notre classe de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Viêt Nam. Dans notre classe, nous parlons beaucoup de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Vietnam et nous émettons des hypothèses à ce sujet. Comment décririez-vous ce que les étudiants pensaient de la guerre lorsque vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, je ne sais pas si la guerre du Vietnam a beaucoup été évoquée... Quand ils... quand j'étais là. Je ne sais pas, mais je dirais qu'à la fin des années soixante, il y avait beaucoup plus de culture de protestation et les choses avaient - il y avait une grande différence. Et si je me souviens bien, il y a une grande différence entre ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante et ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante-dix. Et je me souviens d'un professeur qui disait, non, vous savez, nous étions tellement plus complaisants et pas assez activistes pour... Rebecca : Vous parler en tant qu'étudiants ? BK : En tant qu'étudiants, oui, que vous n'étiez pas - que nous n'étions pas, vous savez, nous sommes plus intéressés par le type d'emploi que nous allons obtenir dans ce genre de choses. Un professeur des années soixante a été déçu par ses étudiants des années soixante-dix. La guerre du Viêt Nam a définitivement marqué mon enfance, l'armée de mon père, et il avait des collègues qui avaient combattu, qui... vous savez, des homologues américains qui avaient combattu pendant la guerre. Ils étaient, euh, terriblement traités à leur retour parce que la guerre était si impopulaire. C'était donc un aspect. Il y a eu des choses terribles, mais, vous savez, c'était une guerre brutale et le bien ou le mal de cette guerre est une chose, mais c'était une guerre brutale et ce n'était pas, euh, -mais je pense que les protestations, la race, la guerre du Vietnam, euh, je dirais dans les années soixante-dix, les préoccupations environnementales étaient vraiment quelque chose qui m'intéressait. Et à certains égards, la situation s'est améliorée et à d'autres, elle a empiré. Rebecca : Oui. En parlant des années 60, les artistes de rock and roll de l'époque encourageaient diverses formes de protestation. Avez-vous l'impression que le rock and roll, tel que vous l'avez connu dans les années 70 en tant qu'étudiante, était toujours lié à cette sorte de lutte contre le système, ou était-ce plutôt de la musique que vous consommiez ? BK : La musique que vous aimiez. Rebecca : D'accord. D'accord. C'est intéressant. Avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents considérait le rock and roll des années 70 de la même façon, ou est-ce que cela les touchait davantage ? BK : La plupart du temps, ils me disaient simplement de refuser. Je ne pense pas qu'ils aient eu le temps d'y réfléchir. Rebecca : C'est très juste. Oui, je pense que mes parents m'ont aussi fait subir cela. Je suppose que c'est une longue histoire. Euh, ça devient un peu plus tabou peut-être. Vous pouvez donc répondre ou non en fonction de ce que vous ressentez. Mais certaines voix de la culture des jeunes dans les années soixante-dix encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. À votre connaissance, dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou accessibles sur les campus ? BK : Ils étaient très disponibles. Très accessibles. Et très utilisés. Rebecca : Beaucoup ? Est-ce que c'était pendant les cours que les gens se droguaient ou est-ce que ça faisait plutôt partie des activités après l'école ? BK : Je pense qu'il s'agirait plutôt d'une activité extrascolaire. Je veux dire qu'il y a peut-être eu, je le sais, des gens qui ont des problèmes de toxicomanie. Hum, cela a eu un impact sur leur scolarité. Et donc oui, je suis sûr qu'il y avait des enfants qui étaient défoncés en classe et, et j'ai eu des camarades de classe qui ont vu les secousses quand les bars n'ouvraient pas jusqu'à 11 heures. Donc, oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Y a-t-il eu une discussion sur le danger, sur les drogues à l'époque ? BK : Euh, oui. C'est certain. Rebecca : Il y avait donc des gens qui avaient des inquiétudes et d'autres qui n'en avaient pas autant ou qui n'en avaient pas du tout. BK : Je ne pense pas que nous étions très différents. Rebecca : D'accord. J'ai compris. BK : Je ne pense pas que les jeunes y pensent nécessairement, mais en termes de, vous savez, dites simplement non aux drogues, tout le... Oui. Rebecca : Oui. D'accord. Oui. Aujourd'hui, beaucoup de gens de ma génération pensent aux années 70, c'est une sorte d'espace-temps groovy et tripant. Les drogues psychédéliques faisaient-elles partie de la culture du campus ? BK : Eh bien, le LSD, voici les drogues, le LSD, la cocaïne et la marijuana. C'est à peu près tout. Rebecca : D'accord. Et quand vous dites que c'était accessible sur le campus, est-ce que c'était par le biais d'un lien que les gens connaissaient et que les étudiants connaissaient, ou comment est-ce que ça s'est intégré... ? BK : Il n'y avait pas de magasin de cannabis comme aujourd'hui. Rebecca : Absolument. D'accord. D'accord. Voilà donc tout ce que j'avais à dire sur cette partie. Passons maintenant à notre deuxième thème, qui est l'expérience féminine sur le campus. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la deuxième vague du féminisme et sur le fait que, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années soixante-dix ont cherché à briser certaines barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que cela correspond à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? BK : Mm hmm. C'est le cas. Rebecca : Oui. Vous étiez une femme à la faculté de droit. Vous êtes-vous sentie isolée ou... ? BK : Non, nous représentions précisément un tiers de la classe, donc si nous étions 180, il y avait, euh, 60 femmes la première année. Et à la fin de la troisième année, nous avions perdu quelques femmes et quelques hommes, mais plus, je pense, peut-être plus de femmes que d'hommes. Il est donc certain que le fait d'être, euh, d'aller à l'école de droit en tant que femme n'était pas un parcours standardisé. Et quand j'ai quitté l'école de droit et que j'ai exercé, je dirais que j'ai vu plus de, euh, vous savez, mais il y avait des femmes dans les groupes de droit. Il y avait des liens entre elles. Mais honnêtement, j'aimais sortir avec des femmes. Je ne sors pas avec des femmes. Donc c'était plus comme ça, c'était vraiment comme, hey, il y a beaucoup d'hommes célibataires ici. Rebecca : C'est donc un peu excitant d'être assis au milieu de cette mer. BK : Eh bien, oui, c'était amusant là-bas. Je peux dire qu'il y avait toujours... Rebecca : Vous avez donc eu l'embarras du choix. Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'il y avait des programmes, des clubs ou des activités où les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins bien accueillies ? BK : Oh, le hockey bien sûr. Oui, c'est vrai. Et c'était un obstacle. Et je pense que c'est l'une des choses comme cette idée que, vous savez, il y avait un hockey intra-muros et que c'était quelque chose qui excluait les femmes. Et puis, il y avait quelques femmes qui jouaient au hockey. Et ce n'est pas comme aujourd'hui. Je pense que c'était l'un des obstacles. Cela n'a pas été pris en compte dans les discussions sur les vestiaires ou sur le golf, ce genre de choses. Et c'est là que le golf, pas quand nous étions étudiants, mais plus tard, c'était, je dirais que ça persiste encore aujourd'hui, mon diplôme ou le jour où j'ai été appelé au barreau était le 13 avril 1981, et il y a un groupe de camarades de classe, tous des hommes, qui se réunissent tous les 13 avril au Prest- au Prescott, où nous avions l'habitude d'aller après le bar et, vous savez, parfois je suis invité, parfois non. Je me dis : "Les gars, allez, ça fait 50 ans. Commençons... Rebecca : Aujourd'hui encore, vous n'avez pas été invité. Ou vous l'êtes ou vous ne l'êtes pas. BK : Ah, oui. Je veux dire, je pouvais toujours me rappeler, vous savez, envoyer un courriel à Henry et lui dire à quelle heure je serai là. Lors de notre 25e anniversaire, j'étais la seule femme à être venue, je suis allée aux toilettes et j'ai appelé mes camarades de classe. Allez, venez ici. Rebecca : Wow. Ouah ! Je suis presque choquée de voir que cela persiste encore aujourd'hui. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit le cas et je ne pense pas que ce soit une chose consciente. Rebecca : Bien sûr. C'est vrai. BK : Ce n'est pas une chose consciente, mais oui. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ces gars-là formaient un groupe soudé, c'est vrai. Ils traînaient encore, vous savez, ils partaient en voyage de pêche et ce genre de choses. Mais personnellement, je n'aurais pas envie d'aller pêcher, alors ce n'est peut-être pas une si mauvaise chose. Mais, vous savez, il y a peut-être des groupes de femmes. Je fais partie d'un club de lecture depuis 40 ans, en dehors de mes camarades de classe de l'école de droit. Et quand nous avons obtenu notre diplôme, nous nous sommes dit qu'il fallait... Et honnêtement, si un homme essayait de se joindre à nous... Non, non, non, non... Rebecca : Vous avez donc créé votre propre espace, en tant que femmes, pour être ensemble. BK : Eh bien, oui. C'est vrai. Et même si beaucoup d'entre nous ont fait leurs études de droit ensemble et que certains maris veulent s'asseoir et discuter, oui non, et nous savons toutes que nous avons fait nos études ensemble, mais c'est un espace réservé aux femmes. Rebecca : Oui. Wow. Que pensez-vous de cette sorte de - avez-vous ressenti cette sorte de lien avec les femmes pendant que vous faisiez vos études là-bas ? Et est-ce que vous comptiez sur la présence de l'autre ou est-ce que vous faisiez vraiment votre travail ? BK : Je faisais ce que je voulais. Rebecca : Oui. J'adore ça. BK : Eh bien, que je me mette au travail. C'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression, lorsque vous étiez dans les salles de classe, qu'en tant que femme ou en regardant d'autres femmes, elles étaient moins susceptibles de lever la main ou d'être sollicitées, ou des choses comme ça ? BK : Euh, non, je ne pense pas que nous tolérerions cela. Mais nous avons eu, à la faculté de droit en particulier, un professeur de droit pénal qui était tout simplement ignoble. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vers les femmes. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Comme dans, dans son traitement ou dans ses pensées ? BK : C'était son traitement, ses exemples, vous savez, parler du viol et du fait que les agressions sexuelles représentent une grande partie de la charge de travail ici, c'est étonnant, c'est décourageant. Le nombre de cas est déprimant. J'ai entendu quelqu'un dire qu'il s'agissait d'une guerre contre les femmes et les enfants dont les gens ne sont même pas conscients. Parler de violence domestique et, vous savez bien, vous savez, les femmes frappent les hommes, vous savez, ce n'est pas ce que nous voyons. Ce n'est pas ce que l'on voit. Rebecca : C'est intéressant. Avez-vous eu un moment dans vos études de droit où c'était trop dur, ou est-ce que vous avez toujours décidé que vous alliez faire du droit ? Vous deviendriez avocat, vous le feriez. Vous vous y tiendriez. BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Qu'est-ce qui a fait que l'école de droit a été la voie à suivre ? BK : Euh, quand j'étais adolescent, vous savez, on faisait - je crois qu'à Winnipeg, on faisait des tests d'aptitude. Que voulez-vous faire ? Il fallait donc commencer à choisir ses cours. Vous saviez dans quelle filière vous alliez vous orienter et il y avait un tas de carrières potentielles. J'ai choisi l'enseignement, le travail social. Et puis j'ai pensé que le droit serait, euh, que vous auriez plus de pouvoir pour vraiment changer les choses ou aider les gens ou, vous savez, résoudre les difficultés. Et je pense que cela s'est avéré vrai. Rebecca : Oui. Est-ce que cela a été plus difficile que vous ne le pensiez ? BK : J'avais 19 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence et 22 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence en droit. C'était difficile, c'est certain. C'était difficile à l'université parce que je suivais six cours à la fois. Nous parlons donc de temps libre. Je n'en avais pas beaucoup. Et oui. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'en étant si absorbée par vos études, vous aviez manqué certains aspects sociaux ? BK : Probablement. Oh, je le savais. Rebecca : Cela ne vous a pas affecté. BK : Eh bien, je suis quelqu'un d'assez sociable. Vous l'avez probablement compris maintenant. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Je veux dire une famille nombreuse. Et je sortais pratiquement tous les soirs. Alors non, je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une grande différence. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Rebecca : Comment avez-vous réussi à maintenir l'équilibre entre l'école et la vie privée ? Etiez-vous fatiguée ? BK : Je suppose. Mais j'étais aussi jeune. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Oui. Non, je pense que les périodes d'examens étaient très, très intenses. En général, à la fin d'une période d'examen, la seule chose que je pouvais manger sans être malade, c'était des œufs brouillés. C'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Est-ce que vous viviez à la maison pendant que vous étiez là-bas ? BK : J'ai vécu à la maison pendant mes études de premier cycle, puis mes parents... et ma première année d'études de droit. Et puis mes parents - mon père a été muté à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard, alors j'ai pris un appartement sur Cumberland Street. Rebecca : Comment cela a-t-il eu un effet sur la façon dont vous avez vécu l'université ? BK : Oh, bien sûr. Lorsque j'habitais sur Cumberland Street, nous ne pouvions pas être plus près que l'année suivante. J'ai déménagé à Somerset, alors c'était un peu plus loin. Je suppose que c'était plus rapide pour se rendre aux cours et ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression que le fait d'être seule et de vivre plus près du campus vous a permis de mieux vous intégrer à la culture de l'université ? BK : Je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une différence. Rebecca : Vous étiez au travail, tête baissée. Je vais donc passer à un sujet un peu différent. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre beaucoup de valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Trouvez-vous que c'est vrai ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il y avait, vous savez, certainement si quelqu'un vivait ensemble, vous savez, si un couple décidait de vivre ensemble, généralement c'était le code que vous ne pouviez pas dire à leurs parents et leurs parents savaient très rarement qu'ils étaient en concubinage. C'était un terme que nous utilisions, et je ne pense pas que ce soit encore le cas aujourd'hui. Mais je pense que c'était le cas. Et cela - mais je pense que d'autres formes de rébellion, probablement plus sur le plan sexuel qu'autre chose, les drogues sont peut-être plus accessibles, je pense. Mais qu'il s'agisse de drogues ou de l'alcool de la génération de mes parents, il s'agissait toujours d'une substance, d'une substance altérant l'esprit. Est-il donc plus rebelle de se droguer que de boire ? Boire aurait été plus en accord avec eux, mais d'une manière ou d'une autre, il faut voir les choses comme ça. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Alors est-ce que... est-ce que c'était des sujets dont les enfants devaient parler à leurs parents ou est-ce que c'était... BK : Je n'aurais jamais parlé de cela à mes parents. Non. Rebecca : D'accord. Pensez-vous que c'était parce qu'ils étaient vos parents ou à cause des pensées qu'ils avaient eues ? BK : Nous n'aurions jamais parlé de cela à nos parents. On ne s'y attendait pas. Je pouvais appeler mon père n'importe quand et il venait me chercher. Et il n'aurait jamais fait de commentaire sur l'état dans lequel je me trouvais. Vous savez, si j'étais en état d'ébriété ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Mais quand j'ai eu 18 ans, j'ai arrêté de prendre de la drogue parce que je pouvais boire et être à peu près la même que maintenant, même si j'étais plus bavarde. Mais les drogues ont un effet sur vous et vous vous dites : non, je ne suis pas qui je suis, alors je ne vais pas faire ça. Rebecca : Votre expérience n'était donc pas qu'elle vous aidait à atteindre un niveau plus élevé de quelque chose. Il vous empêchait d'être vous-même. BK : Moi. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que vos pairs ressentaient la même chose à ce sujet ? BK : Eh bien, je n'en ai jamais parlé. Rebecca : D'accord, c'est intéressant. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste ou pour un changement social, ou bien n'était-ce pas vraiment un sujet à l'ordre du jour ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, je pense qu'il y avait vraiment des problèmes. Je veux dire, l'avortement était un problème, l'accès à un avortement sûr était un problème. Et j'avais des amis, vous savez, nous sommes allés aux États-Unis, nous sommes revenus en bus de New York, en sang, dans la douleur et la souffrance. Je pense donc qu'il y avait plus d'agitation à ce sujet. Je pense que c'était vraiment une cause. C'était une préoccupation. Rebecca : Et donc, y avait-il des manifestations ou des protestations, ou y avait-il une culture à l'université qui consistait à parler de choses et d'autres ? BK : Je pense que nous avons parlé de certaines choses, mais je ne me souviens pas des manifestations. Honnêtement, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu beaucoup de manifestations dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Hum, nous en avons déjà parlé un peu, mais nous pourrions peut-être élaborer un peu plus. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions et les valeurs de vos parents étaient dépassées ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'y ai peut-être fait allusion en ce qui concerne, vous savez, la relation sexuelle, ce genre de relation. Mais je ne sais pas... oui, je ne sais pas. Je suppose que l'on peut regarder des émissions télévisées des années 70 comme All in the Family, mais ce n'est pas... ce n'est pas l'expérience que j'ai eue avec ma famille. Ma mère était politiquement active et si vous lui parliez, elle était née dans les années 30, elle était plus politiquement active que moi. J'ai des photos d'elle à des manifestations et ce genre de choses. Mais je n'avais pas le temps pour ça, parce que j'étudiais. Rebecca : Pensez-vous que si vous n'aviez pas participé à un programme aussi intensif, cela aurait changé votre façon de voir la dynamique sociale sur le campus ? BK : Non, non. Rebecca : Euh, avez-vous l'impression que les opinions de votre génération sur le mariage et sur ce que signifie construire une famille ont changé par rapport aux générations précédentes ? BK : Peut-être. Lorsque j'étais mariée et que j'élevais mes enfants, j'estimais qu'il était important que mon mari passe autant de temps que moi, qu'il puisse emmener les enfants chez le médecin aussi bien que moi. Ce n'est pas le cas de tout le monde. J'observe aujourd'hui une évolution très différente. Je trouve que les jeunes femmes sont... Je trouve cela décourageant. J'embauche une femme, puis elle vient et a peur de dire qu'elle est enceinte. Et je me dis que ce n'est pas pour cela que nous nous sommes battues. Nous avions de très mauvaises allocations de maternité. J'ai perdu un emploi parce que ma famille m'a dit que j'étais plus dévouée à mes enfants qu'à mon travail. De quoi parlez-vous ? Mes factures sont excellentes. Tout cela... vous savez, c'est tout simplement faux. Donc, vous savez, je pense que c'est... et ma carrière n'en a pas souffert. Mais oui, j'ai l'impression qu'il y a plus de choses maintenant. J'ai l'impression qu'il y a un retour en arrière et que les gens ne se battent plus autant pour avoir une bonne carrière et une bonne famille. Rebecca : Oui. Avez-vous l'espoir que le pendule revienne vers les causes pour lesquelles vous vous êtes tant investis ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il reviendra lorsque les femmes se rendront compte qu'elles sont à nouveau soumises. Rebecca : Parce que les choses se passent plus calmement qu'auparavant. BK : Et avec une participation plus volontaire. Vous savez, c'est bien de dire, vous savez, mon but dans la vie est de construire une belle maison, d'élever des enfants et d'avoir tout le temps de conduire les enfants à un match de football ou autre. C'est tout autre chose que de se retrouver seul et sans les moyens de subvenir à ses besoins et à ceux de ses enfants. Et quand vos enfants quittent la maison, cela signifie-t-il que vous êtes, vous savez, ce que vous... si c'est votre seul objectif. Oui, c'est vrai. J'ai l'impression que c'est très important. Je sais qu'il a été important pour moi d'apporter une contribution, et le travail que je fais, je peux en voir l'impact sur les Canadiens. Je peux en voir l'impact sur le fonctionnement du tribunal. Et mes enfants sont formidables. Rebecca : Cela a donc fonctionné. BK : Cela a donc fonctionné ! Mais c'est beaucoup de travail. C'est vraiment difficile et il faut être conscient et intentionnel tout le temps, et il faut réfléchir. Et vous savez, il y a eu des moments où, lorsque les garçons étaient petits, j'allais me coucher et je me sentais mal à l'estomac. J'étais tellement fatiguée. Et, euh. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que votre partenaire a ressenti la même chose ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Rebecca : Oui, d'accord. C'était donc aussi équilibré que possible, mais il y avait encore... BK : Oui. Rebecca : Il y a encore des rôles. Il y avait encore des rôles. Mais cela existe probablement, et je sais que cela existe encore aujourd'hui. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Euh, y avait-il, et si oui, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait-on comme le plus détraqué et qui avait besoin d'être corrigé ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que c'était les droits des femmes et, et mon moi de 20 ans est surpris d'entendre mon moi de 67 ans dire cela. Mais, vous savez, en y repensant, le harcèlement sexuel que nous avons supporté, vous savez, de la part de professeurs de l'université d'Ottawa. Le harcèlement sexuel que nous subissions de la part des professeurs que j'ai eus, c'était effrayant et dégoûtant. Et je pense que, vous savez, j'espère que c'est mieux. Rebecca : Oui, je l'espère. Je l'espère. Je l'espère. Avez-vous l'impression que lorsque vous regardez les hommes autour de vous, ils voient les mêmes choses que vous en tant que femme ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Oui, mais, vous savez, j'avais de bons amis qui étaient des hommes et, vous savez, nous... mais c'était instructif... Mais l'un des... et cela varie des années soixante-dix, mais de nombreux produits. Lorsque je pratiquais le droit et que je représentais des clients, les hommes qui étaient, et c'étaient tous des hommes, des ouvriers du bâtiment et l'entreprise pour laquelle ils travaillaient avait fait faillite. Il existe donc ce que l'on appelle les prêts à la construction, et il s'agit d'un système qui permet de s'assurer que les gens sont payés. Les premiers à être payés sont donc les ouvriers. Ensuite, vous savez, c'est entre les banques et les différents prêteurs et les gens. Il s'agissait donc d'un projet de construction. Dans le cadre de ce règlement, on se retrouve devant un juge, avec tous les avocats et les clients, et il s'agit de grandes tables, d'un processus formel et de la répartition des actifs. J'étais enceinte de mon deuxième enfant et en regardant autour de moi, je me suis dit que j'étais la seule femme ici, à cette époque, et je me suis dit : "Vous". Puis je me suis dit : "Wow ! Et mes clients sont les seuls à recevoir de l'argent. Alors je me suis dit, oui ! L'un de mes camarades de classe était présent dans la salle et nous nous sommes retrouvés par la suite, lors d'une rencontre sociale. Il m'a dit : "Oui, j'ai regardé la salle et je me suis dit qu'elle était la seule, la seule femme dans cette salle. Je me demande si elle se sent mal à l'aise. Et j'ai répondu que j'avais remarqué que j'étais la seule femme. J'espère que c'est mieux ainsi. Et, vous savez, je me souviens de 1990, lorsque le juge en chef Dixon a pris sa retraite et que je me suis rendue dans cette grande salle de bal au Château Laurier, où il n'y avait qu'une mer d'hommes blancs, d'âge moyen. Je me demande si je verrai une différence. Puis, lorsque le juge en chef McLaughlin a pris sa retraite en 2017, il y a eu un événement similaire dans une grande salle de bal, et la foule était beaucoup plus diversifiée. Et donc quand nous avons parlé de cela et puis vous savez que les femmes et les hommes, je pense que cela a été une grande chose pour moi. Mais nous n'avons pas du tout parlé de l'aspect racial. Mais je dirais que c'était une autre caractéristique de la diversité. Rebecca : À ce propos, quand vous avez regardé le campus, y avait-il beaucoup de diversité raciale à l'époque ? BK : Dans une certaine mesure, mais je dirais qu'il y avait surtout beaucoup d'étudiants originaires d'Afrique, des pays francophones Rebecca : Oh, d'accord, c'est vrai. Cela me paraît logique. D'accord. Avez-vous vu des discriminations à leur encontre ou est-ce que vous faisiez tellement votre truc que ça ne faisait pas vraiment partie de ce que vous avez vu. BK : Ce n'est probablement pas ce dont j'ai été témoin, et je pense que mes interactions se sont surtout produites lors de soirées dansantes. Parce que j'aime danser. Rebecca : Est-ce que vos danses... c'est ma propre curiosité. Est-ce qu'il y avait des mouvements de danse ? BK : Oui, vous savez, dans les années 1970, il y avait toute une musique appelée disco. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Et il y avait des danses, le hustle, le bump. Il y avait toutes sortes de... Oui. Rebecca : Vous feriez donc de l'agitation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Oh, c'est incroyable. BK : Je sais. Et c'était génial. Et c'est comme si, si vous voulez revenir à mon école et que vous commenciez dans les années soixante en cours de gym, nous faisions - apprenions des danses et, à Winnipeg, je me souviens que nous devions apprendre la polka et c'était essentiel pour aller à des soirées sociales. Il fallait savoir danser la polka. C'était donc intégré dans les programmes scolaires. Mais dans toutes les écoles que j'ai fréquentées, vous savez, une fois que vous êtes arrivé à la sixième ou à la septième année, je suppose, nous avions le vendredi, une fois par mois, peut-être plus souvent, des bals de chaussettes après l'école, et vous enleviez vos chaussures et vous dansiez, des bals de chaussettes, et ensuite, lorsque vous arriviez au lycée, il y avait des bals réguliers. Et je me souviens que maman, euh, une fois, ma bonne amie est venue et maman nous a cousu dans nos robes pour que nos bretelles de soutien-gorge ne se voient pas. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ou peut-être avait-elle d'autres raisons de nous coudre dans nos robes, mais... Rebecca : Excellente remarque ! Oh, mon Dieu. C'est incroyable d'entendre ça, parce que les danses que j'ai connues, ce sont surtout des gens qui se tiennent debout dans le gymnase et qui parlent entre eux. Et il n'y a pas... il n'y a pas de danse. BK : Eh bien, et nous avions l'habitude, comme à l'école secondaire de Winnipeg, ils - j'y suis allé à cause de la carrière de mon père, j'ai vécu un peu partout, mais c'était vraiment régimenté. Si vous n'aviez pas de partenaire de danse, ça n'avait pas d'importance. On se mettait en rang pour danser en face de quelqu'un. Si vous vous teniez contre le mur, nous les appelions les "wallflowers", c'était parce que vous le vouliez. Mais il n'y avait aucune raison de ne pas danser. Et c'était juste, quand c'était les danses lentes. Et puis, bien sûr, il fallait se mettre en couple avec quelqu'un. Mais cela pouvait être un peu plus gênant si vous ne trouviez personne, mais non, c'était vraiment le cas. Et j'ai remarqué que mes fils n'étaient jamais, [nom du fils] était un peu plus impliqué dans la culture étudiante et au lycée, mais les bals étaient plutôt rares. Et c'était vraiment amusant parce que c'était juste un peu inoffensif et innocent et, vous savez, Ouais. Mais moi et mes amis, on est toujours dans un groupe d'amis où on libère un espace, on met de la musique et on danse. Rebecca : Oh, mon Dieu. Vous écoutez de la musique en ce moment ou ? BK : Plus d'Abba. Et... Rebecca : Oui ! Et qui, qui étaient les qui étaient les qui étaient les de l'époque pour vous ? BK : Les groupes que j'aimais. J'aimais les Who, les Rolling Stones, les Beatles, ABBA était toujours très divertissant. Um, Doobie Brothers. Je ne sais pas. Il y en a beaucoup. Rebecca : Excellent. BK : Oui. Les Bee Gees étaient géniaux. Oh, alors vous avez commencé à danser. Rebecca : Je sais ! Je sais. BK : Et comment allez-vous faire ? Rebecca : Comment vais-je faire ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Je vais trouver une solution. BK : D'accord. Rebecca : Trouve une solution. J'organiserai un saut de chaussettes. Je suis triste de quitter cette conversation, mais je dois revenir à la politique. Lorsque vous étiez à l'université et que vous regardiez le gouvernement, aviez-vous l'impression qu'il était juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? Avez-vous eu l'impression d'être entendu, même si des mesures n'ont pas nécessairement été prises ? BK : Honnêtement, je ne pense pas y avoir jamais réfléchi. Rebecca : Pas de problème. BK : Je veux dire qu'il y a eu de grandes négociations constitutionnelles qui ont abouti à la loi constitutionnelle de 1982. Donc, vous savez, c'est certain. C'est vrai. Rebecca : D'accord. J'aimerais aborder un autre sujet que nous avons un peu abordé. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague dans les années soixante-dix. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Pouvez-vous nous en dire un peu plus sur ce que cela signifie ? BK : Eh bien, si vous n'aviez pas à vous soucier d'être enceinte, c'était un effet libérateur. Et l'avortement, bien que, je veux dire, je pense que cela aurait pu être plus tard, comme je ne pense pas que l'accès à l'avortement était particulièrement répandu. En y repensant aujourd'hui, je pense que les hommes l'ont pris - nous parlons des relations hommes-femmes. Et je sais qu'il existe de nombreuses formes différentes, mais nous parlons uniquement de la relation hétérosexuelle normative. Je pense que cela a conduit les femmes à être moins bien traitées. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Oui, je pense qu'au début, c'était un peu plus égalitaire. Et j'observe maintenant que c'est comme si c'était le cas. Rebecca : Pourquoi pensez-vous que c'est le cas ? BK : Je ne sais pas. Pourquoi les femmes se laissent-elles abuser ? Rebecca : C'est vrai. C'est un élément important. BK : Je pense que c'est le cas. Rebecca : Je suis d'accord. Je suis d'accord. Hum... BK : Parce que c'est difficile. Rebecca : Oui, c'est difficile d'être celui qui doit toujours rester puissant. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vous ne pouvez pas vous détendre dans votre être parce que vous devez être forte. Avez-vous ressenti cela au cours de votre carrière ou bien avez-vous toujours eu la volonté d'être forte et d'assumer votre pouvoir ? BK : Oh, non, je ne dirais pas que cela a toujours été facile pour moi. Mais la confiance vient avec l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : Voilà. C'est vrai. BK : J'en ai beaucoup maintenant. Les deux, l'expérience et l'âge. Oui, l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : J'aimerais aborder un sujet que vous avez un peu abordé, mais si vous ne voulez pas répondre ou si cela vous met mal à l'aise, nous sauterons la section. Mais il s'agit de parler un peu plus de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Si vous êtes à l'aise, je vous poserai quelques questions à ce sujet. BK : Bien sûr. Rebecca : Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont des politiques, des règles et des règlements sur le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure avez-vous trouvé que l'université surveillait les événements sociaux, les soirées mixtes ou les expériences sur le campus, en particulier pour les femmes ? BK : Oh, euh, complètement inexistant. Si je me souviens bien. Rebecca : Est-ce que... est-ce que vous étiez fâchée qu'il n'y ait pas plus de surveillance ? BK : J'ai eu un incident où un professeur, euh, a failli me violer et je n'avais nulle part où aller. Et j'en suis furieuse. À l'époque, tout ce que nous pouvions faire, c'était de dire à mes amies ce qui s'était passé, et, vous savez, j'avais - le seul recours que j'avais, c'était, eh bien, si je devais le rencontrer, j'emmenais une amie et nous le regardions fixement, et c'était tout. Mais j'espère que maintenant... Rebecca : D'après mon expérience, c'est différent, oui. BK : Vous pourriez dire, d'accord... Rebecca : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. BK : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. Et vous savez. Rebecca : Alors, est-ce que c'est quelque chose auquel vous pensez encore ? BK : Eh bien, c'est évident, oui, parce que j'en parle. Mais c'est le cas. Et c'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles j'ai voulu en parler, et même faire cette interview, pour me dire que c'est peut-être quelque chose qui a été réduit au silence à l'époque et que... Rebecca : Il n'est pas nécessaire que ce soit maintenant. BK : Oui, oui. Rebecca : Quand vous... dans votre... je ne sais pas, professionnellement. Est-ce que vous voyez beaucoup de ces expériences se produire maintenant ou est-ce que ce n'est pas du tout quelque chose qui vous vient à l'esprit ? BK : Eh bien, dans ma position, oui. Je veux dire que c'était très... Je suis cadre supérieur ici et le harcèlement sexuel est nettement moins fréquent qu'avant. Et je pense que nous avons mis en place de meilleurs systèmes pour traiter tout ce qui - les comportements qui posent problème. Et ce n'est pas une grande partie de ce qui se passe. C'est pourquoi. Rebecca : D'accord. Notre génération est très intéressée par le mouvement de l'amour libre. Hum, quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Eh bien, beaucoup de gens le faisaient, alors oui. Rebecca : C'était normal. C'était juste ce qui se passait et est-ce que c'était juste une sorte de hasard ? Y avait-il un encouragement à la rébellion ou ? BK : Je ne pense pas que les gens aient eu besoin de beaucoup d'encouragement. Rebecca : C'était donc la liberté. Avez-vous l'impression que c'était différent de la génération de vos parents ? BK : Probablement. Mais je pense que cela revient au contrôle des naissances parce que je sais que j'en ai parlé à ma mère et qu'elle m'a simplement dit : "Oh, tu sais, chaque mois, tout le monde s'inquiète. Et si vous tombiez enceinte, vous devriez vous marier, vous savez, comme, ouais, pour avoir un bébé hors mariage, ce qui est comme, eh bien, la chose la plus horrible et... Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. C'était donc plutôt un sujet dont vous étiez libre de parler ? BK : J'étais libre de parler de tout à mes parents, mais nous n'aurions jamais eu l'idée de leur parler de... Oui. C'était différent. Je parle à mes enfants de plus de choses et je leur dis : "Pourquoi me dites-vous cela ? Je ne veux pas savoir. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression d'avoir déjà fait cela avec vos parents ? BK : Vous leur avez dit des choses qu'ils ne voulaient pas savoir ? Non, parce qu'ils le garderaient pour moi ! Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et vous n'avez pas l'impression que c'est le cas aujourd'hui. BK : Non. Oui. Pourquoi me demandes-tu de t'aider à réviser cette dissertation ? J'ai déjà été à l'école. Rebecca et BK : Je n'ai pas besoin de le refaire. Rebecca : C'est tout à fait vrai. C'est ce que je dis à ma sœur quand elle veut que je l'aide. Quoi qu'il en soit, euh, oui. Je suppose que nous en avons un peu parlé, mais avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents s'est inquiétée de vos relations prémaritales ou qu'ils n'ont pas su que cela se produisait ? BK : Ou ils n'étaient pas aussi informés. Non, non, je pense que oui. Non, je ne sais pas. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit un problème. Rebecca : Cela répond à toutes les questions que je me pose. BK : Génial. Rebecca : Avez-vous quelque chose d'autre à mentionner pendant que vous avez le micro ? BK : Pendant que j'ai le micro, vous savez, c'était deux expériences très différentes sur le campus et dans les années soixante-dix et deux programmes différents. Et, euh, mais je pense toujours que ce premier réflexe que j'ai eu d'aller à l'Université d'Ottawa était le bon. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Génial. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K, B (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial from University of Ottawa Alumna about campus life and beyond in the 1970s, with a heavy focus on the bilingual and female experience. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MPEG Audio File, 56 minutes, 12 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Abortion Academics Arts Bilingualism Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Law School Marriage Popular Music Sexual Violence Sports Student Life The Pill Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sunstrum, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed B, M Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (via phone call) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emily: Okay, so section 1 of the interview revolves around the impact of popular culture at the time. So, within the society that you were living in at the time what were electronics like during the 1970’s? How was your leisure time structured? Or what did most students at Oxford do for fun in the 1970s? MB: Well, of course there's no Internet. There's lots of sports and different clubs like, you know, drama club and I mean there was a sort of religious club. The Oxford University Debating Society was very famous. I didn't participate in that sort of organized stuff. We would go to the movies and concerts, lots of concerts. Live music and classical music, not rock music. Of course, the Beetles were really big at the time, they came from the place of England that I had gone to school. Actually, when I was in elementary school, just before I went off to boarding school, the Beetles were just starting out so that would be 1962 and they would come to the village fairs and sing. I would see the Beetles live; I was about 3 feet away. But then they became so big we could never afford to go to their concerts or anything like that. We didn’t watch TV or anything like that. Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? MB: There were lots of pubs at Oxford. But also, there's about 35 colleges at Oxford, there is no sort of university building, and each college would have its sort of bar and dining hall and library and stuff like that. Depending on your cluster of friends at the time you hang out at your college or their college, not many people wanted to hang out at the women’s colleges. The colleges were all single sex at the time except for one, it had just become coed. I was in one of the five women's colleges and there were 30odd men's colleges and some were more prestigious than others. Mine was the most prestigious of the women’s colleges and the men's colleges. There were about 5 or 6 really sort of really ancient but kind of like the place that Prime Ministers went to. So, people from my college tended to date people from those colleges. And there were lots of dances and balls and stuff. When I say balls, I mean you dressed up in black tie, sometimes white tie and women wore evening gowns. Emily: Okay, that’s cool. OK. So, you kind of talked a little bit about this. My next question is, did you attend any live music events during your university years? MB: Yes. So that would be. Chamber music, orchestral music, choral music. I participated in a choir. Just remembered. And we would later on we would, I started going into London. I lived quite a cosmopolitan life; I had never been into London until I started dating an American. And he was studying English, so he wanted to go to all the future he possibly could. So, we would go into London sometimes three times a week to go to, you know, West End theatre or opera or concerts of some sort, you know, classical concerts. Emily: OK, cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So, my next question is, we use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: Well, there's kind of two types. There's the very serious students, you know, sort of nerdy types. And then there's the people like Boris Johnson. Imagine Boris Johnson. Not the least bit atypical. And that goes back to probably the Middle Ages. They had this sort of heavy drinking and throwing people into the river and stuff like that. I'm sort of straddling the two because for one thing there were the proportion of women was very low. So, it's about seven guys to every woman in the university mostly. Especially the ones that went to the sort of prestigious colleges didn’t want to be getting in touch with a potential date and being told “oh sorry I have to study” “I have to finish my lab”. So there are lots of art colleges, you know, people could study art, history, whatever, but it wasn't part of the university. So, these colleges became known for providing the competition to female students. To the point (6:32) where, you know, I’d go to a party with my friends and people would say “where are you” they’d say and you would say “Oh I’m at college” which is very sort of neutral. And they pressed and would say “oh well which college” and then if you said, “well I’m going to ‘the college I went to’” and then they would start looking over your shoulder and say, “Oh I just saw Joe, I’ve got to go talk to him” and that was the end of that conversation. It was a whole, it was a very, somewhat divided sort of feeling. And it’s true, if you wanted to, you know, get your work done, you obviously had to take some time out. But it was definitely a party culture. Some of those young men would go to, they had a club which did not include women where they would go and eat fabulous food because the different colleges had wonderful chefs and then they would drink on ancient port which was in the college cellars. And start throwing oranges at 20 century portraits in the dining hall. You could imagine (8:14) it was not all prim and proper. By the way, King Charles was at Cambridge all this time so lots of people were going back and forth. This is probably too much information, I'm just remembering back how it was lots of fun, extremely creative, extremely stimulating intellectually, we met so many interesting people. So many interesting people would come and give lectures. We were just coming out of the deprivations of World War 2, about 25 years since the war had ended. It was a really really depressed society after that, lots of building going on and things started to settle down in the 70s. That’s around the time Britain on its second effort joined the European economic community(10:04), which they have since left. But it's hard to imagine going from really destroyed major towns close to where my family was living at the time, like Liverpool and Manchester. I mean Liverpool was just completely, chunks of it were flattened, burning. Emily: OK, so my next question is what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? MB: Well, I think initially, it was a very conservative place, Oxford. Lots of people's parents were sort of establishment figures, and you know, stockbrokers and bankers and stuff like that. And you know, my old father was an industrialist. And so, they were horrified by the threat of communism and stuff like that. So. I think initially it was sort of, well, let those guys get on with it, but they should be doing bad things. But we shouldn't intervene. But then very quickly, the student body, certainly as the defining thing that happened right before I went off to university was the movement in France (12:31) and Germany and in the Eastern European countries as trying to throw over government and become equitable and especially stop the war. So, there was a huge engagement in the May of 68 riots in France that sort of shut everything down and Germany and so on. Lots of radical movements. So, a wind has started to build at Oxford, and we actually did have some marches and demonstrations and we found out that the deans of the different colleges and also sort of leadership of the university were identifying students who might be good candidates for let's say MI5 or the spy agency and they were forwarding information to these services and saying “oh you might want to interview this person or that person” and that person would get invited to London to have a nice conversation. Of course, we were horrified that the university authorities were sending information to try to identify students who were good candidates without their permission or consent. So, that was the rallying cry at Oxford, of course some of those people went on to work with allies like the United States, which could of course get themselves involved in the war. The cold war was in full swing and that by the way was a terrifying thing that was always around us, sort of equivalent to the climate change crisis today. And a lot of the students were activists against nuclear arms, so people used to go on marches to you know, ban the bomb. My parents took me to visit a boarding school when they were looking for a good school to send me too and it was a very famous school and known for its academics and stuff like that and nice buildings, walking around like a college tour. And then my mother said, “but where are all the girls”, the teacher said, “they're in London at a ban the bomb march”. And it was a quaker school (15:47), run by quaker and they were pro-peace so my parents said “oh we can’t send our daughter there”. But yes the attitude of the Vietnam war, the circles that I ended up in, were very much against the war. But it took a while for me too, it was very hard to sort of when you’ve heard for years this very negative view of students, I mean in the family, of students to rise up and say we should do this, we shouldn’t do this. To sort of switch to the, when we went on marches there were TV cameras and I sort of said “oh what if my father sees me on TV” then I just stopped worrying about it. I don’t think he ever did. Emily: So, my next question for this section is Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Was Rock and Roll becoming popular within this society that you were living in? And if so, did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? MB: They probably thought it was rebellious, but I went to boarding school, I didn’t really live at home much after I was 10. I just saw them on Holidays but also sometimes I went to Holidays somewhere else. So, in a sense we got to make up our own minds, initially I didn’t like the Beetles at all. I would sort of run into them at those village fairs (17:45) and then, I remember, in the summer of 63’ or spring of 63’ we went to this village festival and they would crown the rose queen every year and it was usually a little girl like 14 or something like that and she had little page boys who were much younger and she was dressed in this sort of beautiful queen dress with a velvet cape. And the Beetles started setting up over where they had the stage and amps and stuff like that, and the crowd started to rush over there, and they trampled over the train of the rose queen. I was just horrified; I was very anti Beetles for a couple of years and after that I liked them. I remember for my birthday one year my parents took me to the Beetles movie “Help” that came out, it was pre-made I guess in Liverpool, so we went to go see it. So, in that sense they were supportive, “what movie would you like to see? Ok the Beetles, let's do that then.” But I didn’t have a radio, my sister who was a bit younger, acquired a portable radio, I should have mentioned, that’s probably more like the electronics of the era. But she would do all her homework, everything, going to bed at night, she had to have this radio on and people in the family did not like it. I couldn’t imagine having the radio going when you’re trying to work on something. So that’s another part of the evolution. Emily: OK. That's my next question is some youth culture. Voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were drugs available at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: I don’t know how widespread it was. I became aware of drugs when I became aware of Americans. Oxford has this program called road scholarships and students came from commonwealth countries and also the United States (20:26) and Canada but because the US had the biggest pool of students, they always had the largest number of scholarships. So, I became aware of these students who, for the most part, had already graduated, they already had their undergraduate and they were always like 3-4 years older than us, and they were very puerile young men of our cousins of our friends from school who didn’t like dating actual college students, these young men were completely open to that. But some of them had gotten into using drugs in the states and some of them had served in the forces in Vietnam and they would come back and say “we’ve got to end this” so there was quite a bit of it. I never bought it myself, but I did use it a few times. To be honest I’d be quite happy to use it but it made me paranoid that it was the drugs that was doing it, not me. That’s a side effect that some people experience. There was lots of booze. Emily: Right, ok. That’s all for the first section. So. Now we're moving on to the second section, which is the female experience. So, my main question for this section is culture. Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement. Women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Oxford campus during the 1970s? MB: Absolutely. can I just do a parenthesis and go back a bit Because this reminds me of the student movements and the the radicalism that was building up on other campuses, I would say partly triggered by the Vietnam War, which is all part of the Cold War. The thing that really changed my view happened between when I graduated high school and I've already been admitted to Oxford, and I spend a few months off and started at Oxford in the fall of 69’. There was a Czech student who burned themself to death and it was all about the, sorry I hope that’s not triggering for you Emily: No, that’s okay. MB: The communist Eastern European countries that were under the Soviet domination started to rise up (23:46) in Czechoslovakia in particular had what was called a Prague spring. They were moving more into representative democracy or trying too throughout 1968 and I was completely unaware of that and then this young man, that seemed like my age I actually don’t know how old he was, in January of 69’ so it’s before we went off to France and he burned himself to death. And from that moment, he was protesting the Soviet occupation which was still gradually wiping out the liberal experiment of the Prague spring. And that got me into thinking more about politics and economics as well and then I went to France and lived there for 9 months until university started. I was doing an internship in a chemical firm. And the student people that I started hanging around with were having a lot of activisms on the anniversary of the events of May, 68’ so May of 69’ they had general strikes and so on and it all succeeded forcing the President to resign. So that was also an activated moment that got me thinking about how politics work and I was a very nerdy science student. I was trying to go up to Oxford to read engineering and I was starting to get cold feet about engineering, so I ended up doing physics but by the time I became activated or engaged, I eventually took my high degree of math's and moved over into economics, politics and philosophy where I went into economics. But there was a feminist side to that, in that it was very unusual for women to even do pure science much less engineering. Only one other girl entered to do engineering (26:20) at the same time I did, but of course I dropped it and switched to physics and became the first woman in the history of Britain to become to head of the Engineers association of Britain and this was like 10 years ago. Thats how unequal things were for women at the time and of course it persisted and it's still persisting like we’ve had more women prime ministers for example. I was lucky that I went to an all-girls school so there was no negative thought through the school of doing science, other people would say things like “oh she should be careful because it's hard to be in a lab with just men”. But the other big thing we did during my time at Oxford, so 69’-74’, we gradually pushed and pushed, this was in between sort of major world type movements and individual actions like this idea to become a schoolteacher, so this middling thing at the university level, we pushed to get more colleges to become co-ed. Rach college had its own rules so it happened very gradually, I think most of them are co-ed now. But they would say things like, we had staff, cleaning staff that would come and make up people's rooms and the deans would say “we can't possibly have co-ed colleges because men and women would sleep together”. If the staff came in in the morning and found a man and woman in the same bed, then they would quit so they couldn’t keep the staff. After a bit somebody said, “well maybe we don’t need to go in the bedrooms” and then the answers were (29:13) “well the staff are there to make sure there aren't any young men in your room”, it took a while to get that changed. And the same thing was happening at the time in the US in the ivy league, I don’t know if the dorms at U of O might have been going through the same thing, whether or not they should have co-ed residences. One of our heroes for women and men by the way from American university was Angela Davis. She was a very left-wing activist in the US, and she was jailed at the time, and it was to do with having guns and trials and stuff like that and she became one of our heroes. One of our marches was about free Angela Davis, I think at one point she may have come later on when she was released in 72’, she came and lectured at Oxford. Emily: So, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. So how did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events? MB: I kind of alluded to a whole bunch, do you want me to repeat some of it? Emily: You don't have to repeat it all, but just a little bit of a summary would be good (31:06). MB: Yeah, ok. Well, all but one of the residential colleges of about 35 were single sex, the proportion of women on the university campus was very low and the anecdote about when you would go to social events, many of the men had gone to similar high schools and were the same age as us and in our same classes didn’t particularly want to date women confronting the same work load, deadlines and things that they were. So, we ended up drifting towards grad students or maybe Americans or Canadians. And we were very active on the topic of making things co-ed, you had to enroll in the college, its not like choosing your dorm after you’ve been accepted so if you were in a particiular college you would discover that it was very strict on keeping men and women separate. People used to do things like siging in and out of college, they had these gate hours that the staff had to monitor. So my college closed at 11 so you knew you had to be back inside by 11 o’clock. If you knew you had something that was going to end later, you could sign out a key, but it was really a big deal. What people would do is they would climb over the walls, sometimes injuring themselves, a couple people were killed, probably they were drunk, but they wanted to get in and out so that’s what they would do. Or they stayed out all night. Emily: So, my next question then is in the 1970s were there programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? MB: I'm not really aware of any. I know that some of my contemporaries, from school age contemporary, not a classmate but somebody I knew, went onto to become the first woman president of the Oxford debating union society but I can't even remember when that was (33:58), it happened after I left. But we certainly were aware of women who graduated from Oxford went onto political success in their respective country so like the first woman Prime Minister anywhere I think had gone to Oxford. Margaret Thatcher went to Oxford, actually the 3 woman PMs were all conservative interesting enough and they all went to Oxford. Emily: So that's it for the feminism section. My next question has to do with ideology and generational differences. So, historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? (35:51) MB: I mean that would be 100% what was going through my mind at the time. I started off as a very focused on a very technical career and I mean I have to say my father was an engineer so that was partly the only role model I had. But that meant lots of very serious studying and you didn’t do much reading around other things and then I became engaged in the particular incidents gradually. We weren’t really in our families you know, so it wasn’t a case of going home every evening or week or month or something and having to argue this stuff out with your parents. You could carry on with your own way of thinking, form your own ideas. I mean they were very interested; I don’t want to make it out that they were not interested in these kinds of things, but they weren’t particularly day to day observing whether you skipped classes or whatever. The good thing is you didn’t have to go to lectures there, the key thing is having tutorials one on one and working on a research project and preparing that with your tutor. I would start every single term planning to go to lectures because there were so many interesting ones but then I would get so much work on my plate (37:39), I had my social life and my activism that I didn’t have time to go to lectures. Because it wasn’t obligatory, that was the one thing that was sort of laid back. I did work in mini-shorts and stuff like that, flower child clothes and certainly the young conservative clubs where people like Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May and Liz Truss were making their mark. But they were very serious political wonks, so they weren’t going to go dressing up like flower children, they were all suits and ties and stuff like that. Of course, when we went to dances and balls, we were all elegantly dressed. Emily: OK, so then my next question is to what extent did your generation believe that your parents' notion about gender family dating were outdated? MB: Well, I guess I probably did feel that, I didn’t really confront them, but I did leave Britain right after I finished all the various bits of studying that I did there, and I didn’t go back for a decade. And it was really because I began to be aware, especially well young men, because road scholarships at that time were only open to men. By the way you couldn’t be married to accept a road scholarship. There were all kinds of romances that had originated from these ivy league universities or whatever universities were sending those. And they had to put off their plans for over a year if they wanted a scholarship but then they would meet their eventual wives and they would come over and then I realized these kind had a much more equal relationship than I thought other people, my parents, my aunts and uncles and so on, their relationship did not seem to be so equal and I thought wow there's a certain respect here, they could open their own banking account, I had to get my father to open my account for me. And, you know, I really thought the US (40:11), I was watching what was happening with water gate that was opening up, the protest against the Vietnam war and the water gate breaking and I don’t know if you’ve been looking but it was just the 50th anniversary recently, it was just amazing to see that unfolding and then when they moved to the US, it was actually the first year I was living there, was a combination of water gate and the resignation of Britain in 1974. It was just to me, the most dramatic thing that the government could be, I've seen that happen in France with the goal it 69’ and here it was France was even more socially stratified in gender imbalance society than Britain. But I thought wow you could have really a self-respecting career or life in this place. And I remember my mother saying to me, “but don’t you realize that all these men that you met who are American or Canadian at Oxford are the best of the best, the people that you'll find there are probably not very friendly or feminist or very welcoming to women” and at first I thought yes that’s a good point but then I thought well actually the young men that I met that were British were also supposed to be the best of the best and I was finding them wanting so I thought guess I'll try so I did. Of course, there's lots more nuance to American politics and British politics and French politics. Emily: So yeah, so, my next question is, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizen's needs? MB: In Britain? Emily: Yes, when you were in university in the 1970s MB: No, not at all, I felt that it was extremely trapped in ancient stereotypes, some of those things were very obvious in the single sex colleges and schools. The famous schools don’t accept co-ed students either. But the economy was clearly very biased towards men (42:51). I mean I quite enjoyed when I was still thinking I was going to be an engineer, my father eventually came around and thought it was kind of a neat thing so he started finding out if there was anything that could show yiung women what it might be like to be an engineer. So, like a winter program of two weeks at a university, sort of a lab or an internship or something, so he found a few things like that. I quite liked being the only, or one of two women in those programs, you know you get a lot of attention. And I don’t mean sexual attention, it was just the idea that “here they are doing all their stuff” and then I would stick up my hand say something, and they would all listen but then quite often just carry on what they were doing before. Anyway, it was yes. These things go in lurches I've of course discovered since then, those political changes and economic, I won't say equality, but justice shall we say. Emily: OK, so then, looking back at the 1970s, what aspects of your society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? (44:19) MB: Sorry what aspects of the time seemed out of whack? Emily: Yes, like when you were in university MB: Well, I think the gender imbalances and the fact that political action was concentrated in very small, tight, circles. I mean Bill Clinton was there when I was at Oxford, I think Hillary too. I didn’t know them though, but these people were all floating around, creating their own establishment. But to me watching the televised hearing of how I saw it was a very good exercise in democracy and seeing how lawyers, a lot of whose assistants were people I had been studying with, to being assistant to the prosecutors. Really opened things up but now of course you look back on that and sort of say “well you know, Jim Jordan holds hearings and it's just a political rant you know”. So, it's things lurch and sometimes they go back, 2 steps forward you hope, 1 and a half steps back. Emily: So, I have one more section for you. Um. And my first question is cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? MB: I'm not sure I agree with all of it but certainly I'm not aware of any of my little group of friends that was not on the pill (46:26). I think there were probably many that were Catholics and were not but in my circle. Everyone knew there was a particular place you could go for abortions; I don’t remember when it became legalized, I don’t think it was legal at the time in Britain, I don’t think it was legal until after I left, but there was a place you could go. I mean I never used it because the pill is pretty effective. And I think it did make us a little more, I suspect, I mean I don’t have any older brothers, but I suspect it made us a little more free and easy about dating. By the way we werent completely subject to exactly the same sort of para relationships and psychological abuse as others. Emily: Then what did dating look like on campus in the 1970s? MB: Well, you met people at parties, there's no internet, and we called them cattle market and that’s where people would look at you and go “oh my god you go to college, you’re a university student oh nah”. They preferred to date people that didn’t have other commitments, they wanted to be able to decide when to go on a date and not be told that they had to do a paper or a project or lab or something like that. You know people did pair up, they had their relationships and some of them got married right after university so that was in a sense very 1950’s conventional. I went through a whole phase “oh I'm never going to get married” and then I mean they guy I did marry; I'm still married to (49:02), I met him when I went to Alberta and I thought I was just moving there briefly but I've been here in Canada ever since, about 45 years ago, sort of a love at first sight paradigm. I certainly left Britain on my own initiative and a couple of guys from the States I had known and even dated at Oxford, they would say things like “I really like you why don’t we just get married” and I kind of said “No, I don’t want to get married”. So, I think that liberated me in a sense that not to get into a situation that would be more complicated than it needed to be. I had lots of issues with the whole 5 years before I lived in the US, I had constantly tried to get my visa extended. Emily: I feel like this kind of ties into a little bit of what you were saying just then but my last question is how did your generation look at family and marriage? MB: Many of us were quite determined not to get married and then later on even when we had got married not to have children. I think you still hear some of that but of course it happened so we kind of changed that for the world. And by the way, I don’t know if this is part of your thinking at all but, gay life at Oxford was extremely well established (51:16) and quite common and that goes back centuries and that’s because it was all male for so long. And profs could not be married so they kept their families outside the city limits or outside the limits of the university jurisdiction but that was only in late 19th century. But you could think people like the guy who wrote “Alice in Wonderland” he was a very typical Oxford prof. And it was I wouldn’t say celebrated, gayness, but it was definitely, and the other thing is because it was World War 2 a lot of the school teachers and I, which happened to be in Oxford had no boyfriends or there weren’t any young men around or maybe they weren’t interested in young men. And so, it was perfectly normal for two women to be living together and my math teacher and gym teacher and on and on and on and you were totally not bothered by it. When I was in my upper classes in high school, I started going to clubs and parties at Oxford events and you'd see certain young men and you’d say, “oh I kind of like that guy” and then a bit later you’d realize “oh he's with this other guy, that’s fine”. It was legalized in Britain in 1968 (53:18) so right away from the time I was at boarding school it was illegal and the when I went to university it was legal. It was certainly a very open... Emily: It was accepted MB: Ya, accepted, that’s a better way of putting it because I'm sure there was a lot of prejudice elsewhere in Britain and probably Cambridge and some of the other universities were very much welcoming and supportive. Emily: Well, that is all the questions that I have for you today. MB: I hope I wasn't too much of a fire hose Emily: No that’s okay, thank you so much for your time (55:17) Transcription Translation Emily : D'accord, la première partie de l'entretien porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire de l'époque. Au sein de la société dans laquelle vous viviez à l'époque, à quoi ressemblait l'électronique dans les années 1970 ? Comment était structuré votre temps libre ? Ou que faisaient la plupart des étudiants d'Oxford pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? MB : Bien sûr, il n'y avait pas d'Internet. Il y avait beaucoup de sports et différents clubs comme, vous savez, le club de théâtre et je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de club religieux. La Oxford University Debating Society était très célèbre. Je ne participais pas à ce genre d'activités organisées. Nous allions au cinéma et à des concerts, beaucoup de concerts. De la musique live et de la musique classique, pas de la musique rock. Bien sûr, les Beetles étaient très populaires à l'époque, ils venaient de la région d'Angleterre où j'étais allé à l'école. En fait, lorsque j'étais à l'école primaire, juste avant d'aller à l'internat, les Beetles commençaient à peine, c'était en 1962, et ils venaient chanter dans les foires de village. J'ai vu les Beetles en concert ; j'étais à un mètre de distance. Mais ils sont devenus si importants que nous n'avons jamais pu nous permettre d'aller à leurs concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre. Nous ne regardions pas la télévision. Emily : Oui, ça a l'air bien. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? MB : Il y avait beaucoup de pubs à Oxford. Mais il y a aussi 35 collèges à Oxford, il n'y a pas de bâtiment universitaire, et chaque collège a son bar, son réfectoire, sa bibliothèque, etc. En fonction de votre groupe d'amis à ce moment-là, vous fréquentez votre collège ou leur collège, mais peu de gens voulaient fréquenter les collèges de femmes. Les universités étaient toutes unisexes à l'époque, à l'exception d'une seule, qui venait de devenir mixte. J'étais dans l'une des cinq universités féminines et il y avait une trentaine d'universités masculines, dont certaines étaient plus prestigieuses que d'autres. La mienne était la plus prestigieuse des universités féminines et masculines. Il y en avait 5 ou 6 qui étaient vraiment très anciens, mais qui ressemblaient un peu à l'endroit où allaient les Premiers ministres. Les gens de mon collège avaient donc tendance à sortir avec des gens de ces collèges. Il y avait beaucoup de danses, de bals et d'autres choses. Quand je parle de bals, je veux dire qu'on s'habillait en cravate noire, parfois en cravate blanche et les femmes portaient des robes de soirée. Emily : D'accord, c'est cool. D'ACCORD. Vous en avez un peu parlé. Ma prochaine question est la suivante : avez-vous assisté à des événements musicaux pendant vos années d'université ? MB : Oui. Je dirais donc que c'est le cas. Musique de chambre, musique orchestrale, musique chorale. J'ai participé à une chorale. Je m'en souviens. Plus tard, j'ai commencé à aller à Londres. Je vivais une vie assez cosmopolite ; je n'étais jamais allée à Londres jusqu'à ce que je sorte avec un Américain. Et comme il étudiait l'anglais, il voulait aller dans tous les futurs qu'il pouvait. Nous allions donc à Londres parfois trois fois par semaine pour aller au théâtre du West End, à l'opéra ou à des concerts classiques. Emily : OK, cool. Oui, ça a l'air cool. Ma question suivante est la suivante : nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête " pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Oxford dans les années 1970 ? MB : Eh bien, il y a deux types d'étudiants. Il y a les étudiants très sérieux, les intellos. Et puis il y a les gens comme Boris Johnson. Imaginez Boris Johnson. Pas le moins du monde atypique. Et cela remonte probablement au Moyen-Âge. Les gens buvaient beaucoup, jetaient les gens dans les rivières, etc. Je suis en quelque sorte à cheval entre les deux parce que, d'une part, la proportion de femmes était très faible. Il y a environ sept hommes pour une femme à l'université. En particulier, celles qui allaient dans des universités prestigieuses ne voulaient pas entrer en contact avec une fille potentielle et se faire dire "oh, désolé, je dois étudier" "je dois finir mon labo". Il existe donc de nombreuses écoles d'art, où l'on peut étudier l'art, l'histoire ou autre chose, mais qui ne font pas partie de l'université. C'est ainsi que ces écoles sont devenues célèbres pour la concurrence qu'elles offraient aux étudiantes. À tel point que, lorsque j'allais à une fête avec mes amis, les gens me demandaient "Où es-tu ?" et vous répondiez "Oh, je suis à l'université", ce qui est tout à fait neutre. Ils insistaient et disaient "Oh, quelle université" et si vous répondiez "Eh bien, je vais à l'université où je suis allé", ils commençaient à regarder par-dessus votre épaule et disaient "Oh, je viens de voir Joe, il faut que j'aille lui parler" et c'était la fin de la conversation. C'était un sentiment très, très divisé. Et c'est vrai, si vous vouliez, vous savez, faire votre travail, vous deviez évidemment prendre un peu de temps pour vous. Mais c'était vraiment une culture de la fête. Certains de ces jeunes hommes se rendaient dans un club qui n'incluait pas de femmes, où ils allaient manger des plats fabuleux parce que les différents collèges avaient de merveilleux chefs, puis ils buvaient du porto ancien qui se trouvait dans les caves des collèges. Et ils commençaient à jeter des oranges sur des portraits du 20ème siècle dans le réfectoire. Vous pouvez imaginer que tout n'était pas rose et correct. D'ailleurs, le roi Charles était à Cambridge pendant tout ce temps, si bien que beaucoup de gens allaient et venaient. C'est probablement trop d'informations, mais je me souviens simplement que c'était très amusant, très créatif, très stimulant intellectuellement, et que nous avons rencontré tant de gens intéressants. Nous avons rencontré tant de personnes intéressantes. Tant de personnes intéressantes venaient donner des conférences. Nous sortions tout juste des privations de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, environ 25 ans après la fin de la guerre. La société était vraiment très déprimée après cela, il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours et les choses ont commencé à se calmer dans les années 70. C'est à cette époque que la Grande-Bretagne, pour son deuxième effort, a rejoint la Communauté économique européenne, qu'elle a quittée depuis. Mais il est difficile d'imaginer la destruction des grandes villes proches de l'endroit où ma famille vivait à l'époque, comme Liverpool et Manchester. Je veux dire que Liverpool a été complètement détruite, des pans entiers de la ville ont été rasés, brûlés. Emily : D'accord, alors ma question suivante est : que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? MB : Eh bien, je pense qu'au départ, c'était un endroit très conservateur, Oxford. Les parents de beaucoup de gens étaient des figures de l'establishment, des agents de change, des banquiers, etc. Et vous savez, mon père était un industriel. Ils étaient donc horrifiés par la menace du communisme et ce genre de choses. Donc. Je pense qu'au départ, c'était un peu comme si on laissait ces gens faire ce qu'ils voulaient, mais qu'ils devaient faire de mauvaises choses. Mais nous ne devrions pas intervenir. Mais très vite, le corps étudiant, certainement parce que la chose déterminante qui s'est produite juste avant que je n'entre à l'université a été le mouvement en France et en Allemagne et dans les pays d'Europe de l'Est pour essayer de se débarrasser du gouvernement et de devenir équitable, et surtout d'arrêter la guerre. Les émeutes de mai 68 en France, qui ont en quelque sorte tout bloqué, ainsi qu'en Allemagne et dans d'autres pays, ont été l'occasion d'un engagement considérable. Beaucoup de mouvements radicaux. Nous avons découvert que les doyens des différents collèges et la direction de l'université identifiaient les étudiants susceptibles d'être de bons candidats pour le MI5 ou l'agence d'espionnage, par exemple, et qu'ils transmettaient des informations à ces services en disant : "Oh, vous voudrez peut-être interviewer telle ou telle personne" et que cette personne était invitée à Londres pour avoir une conversation agréable. Bien sûr, nous étions horrifiés que les autorités universitaires envoient des informations pour tenter d'identifier les étudiants qui étaient de bons candidats sans leur permission ou leur consentement. C'était donc le cri de ralliement à Oxford, et bien sûr, certaines de ces personnes sont allées travailler avec des alliés comme les États-Unis, qui pouvaient bien sûr s'impliquer dans la guerre. La guerre froide battait son plein et c'était d'ailleurs une chose terrifiante qui nous entourait en permanence, une sorte d'équivalent de la crise du changement climatique aujourd'hui. Beaucoup d'étudiants militaient contre l'armement nucléaire et organisaient des marches pour interdire la bombe. Mes parents m'ont emmenée visiter un internat lorsqu'ils cherchaient une bonne école où m'envoyer. Il s'agissait d'une école très réputée, connue pour ses études et d'autres choses du même genre, avec de beaux bâtiments, où l'on se promenait comme dans une visite d'université. Et puis ma mère a dit, "mais où sont toutes les filles", le professeur a répondu, "elles sont à Londres à une marche pour l'interdiction des bombes". C'était une école de quakers, dirigée par des quakers et ils étaient pour la paix, alors mes parents ont dit "oh, nous ne pouvons pas envoyer notre fille là-bas". Mais oui, l'attitude à l'égard de la guerre du Viêt Nam, les cercles dans lesquels je me suis retrouvée, étaient très opposés à la guerre. Mais il m'a fallu un certain temps pour que, après avoir entendu pendant des années cette vision très négative des étudiants, je veux dire dans la famille, les étudiants se lèvent et disent que nous devrions faire ceci, que nous ne devrions pas faire cela. Lorsque nous avons participé à des marches, il y avait des caméras de télévision et je me suis dit "Oh, et si mon père me voyait à la télévision", puis j'ai cessé de m'en préoccuper. Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais fait. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B, M (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonal about the life on campus of Oxford University in the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 1970s Abortion Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Hippies Oxford, England Physics Popular Music Protest Queer Sexuality Student Life The Pill Vietnam Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Catholic grade schools Immaculata High School University of Ottawa Degree BA Career professional Occupation Nurse Ethnicity Swiss Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Paradis, Philippe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Palmer, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis So for the first question, cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa has a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis So the first question would be there were less electronics in Canada in the 70s. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Like none. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis So how was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 70s? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Well, we went to the pub after school. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer I'm sure they still do that now, but there was. 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer We went to my father, used to laugh. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer We went to the library every night and after the library closed that cause I was studying nursing. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer So we were at the medical library, we would go to the the Albion, which I don't think is there anymore. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer It's gone and probably went there almost every night. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer There were dances, there were. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer We ran the School of Nursing on. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.140 Liz Palmer We were in the and at that point we were at the building where engineering is now. 0:1:44.750 --> 0:1:50.940 Liz Palmer Which is probably an old building to you, but for us it was brand new and every Friday we ran a pub. 0:1:51.530 --> 0:1:56.410 Liz Palmer One week it was by nursing and the other week it was by the engineering students. 0:1:57.150 --> 0:2:3.220 Liz Palmer So there were lots of pubs, parties, lots of get togethers. 0:2:3.750 --> 0:2:7.180 Liz Palmer Umm, that kind of thing. 0:2:7.190 --> 0:2:9.700 Liz Palmer And there was some art groups. 0:2:10.230 --> 0:2:12.800 Liz Palmer There were readings. 0:2:13.470 --> 0:2:14.230 Liz Palmer There were. 0:2:16.730 --> 0:2:18.0 Liz Palmer Poetry readings auto. 0:2:18.10 --> 0:2:21.770 Liz Palmer You had a lot of that kind of stuff and they used to go to all those sorts of things, yeah. 0:2:22.820 --> 0:2:25.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So like a lot of obviously in person activities. 0:2:25.250 --> 0:2:27.100 Liz Palmer All it was all in person. 0:2:32.10 --> 0:2:36.980 Philippe Alain Paradis And so you mentioned pubs, so that sort of answers the question. 0:2:36.990 --> 0:2:40.260 Philippe Alain Paradis What we're the most popular hangout spots on and off campus. 0:2:41.770 --> 0:2:51.420 Liz Palmer It would be the Albion for us and and then the pub that we ran, the weekly pub that ran at the at the at the build. 0:2:51.430 --> 0:2:54.860 Liz Palmer I forget what the name of the building is now, but it was it's. 0:2:55.70 --> 0:2:56.620 Liz Palmer It's the engineering building now. 0:2:56.710 --> 0:3:2.300 Liz Palmer They had a big common room there and that's that's that was every Friday night through the through the whole year. 0:3:3.520 --> 0:3:3.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Nice. 0:3:4.620 --> 0:3:7.750 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you attend any live music events during the university years? 0:3:8.990 --> 0:3:12.100 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, a lot of those things that we went to had live bands. 0:3:13.300 --> 0:3:17.10 Liz Palmer Some of them had DJ's, umm. 0:3:17.210 --> 0:3:18.920 Liz Palmer There was no rap in those days. 0:3:18.930 --> 0:3:23.790 Liz Palmer Everything was disco in the 70s, so yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:3:25.380 --> 0:3:32.280 Liz Palmer Ohh, looky, Looky Boo was a big deal on Sussex and it was alternative music at the time. 0:3:33.170 --> 0:3:37.720 Liz Palmer Umm, it would have been folk music, different things like that. 0:3:38.590 --> 0:3:42.470 Liz Palmer Different groups would have come into that smaller area. 0:3:42.840 --> 0:3:44.620 Liz Palmer Bruce Coburn in different people like that. 0:3:45.650 --> 0:3:47.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Were there a lot of rock bands back then? 0:3:47.970 --> 0:3:49.120 Philippe Alain Paradis At these places. 0:3:49.100 --> 0:3:51.710 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, there were some that wasn't really. 0:3:51.720 --> 0:3:54.80 Liz Palmer I I liked a lot of different music but. 0:3:56.250 --> 0:4:3.770 Liz Palmer Trying to think of there were quite a number of Ottawa that five man electrical band I think was one of them. 0:4:5.140 --> 0:4:7.340 Philippe Alain Paradis So disco is the big one. 0:4:7.840 --> 0:4:10.30 Liz Palmer Disco was the big thing at that time. 0:4:10.40 --> 0:4:18.40 Liz Palmer Probably more into the mid 70s, but I started in started Ottawa U. 0:4:18.50 --> 0:4:21.420 Liz Palmer Guess it was September of 1970, yeah. 0:4:26.990 --> 0:4:29.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa said earlier auto you auto was the bilingual institution. 0:4:30.370 --> 0:4:34.0 Philippe Alain Paradis How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? 0:4:39.700 --> 0:4:40.640 Liz Palmer Yep, Yep. 0:4:34.10 --> 0:4:40.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? Yeah. 0:4:41.860 --> 0:4:43.550 Liz Palmer I wasn't a big club person. 0:4:44.310 --> 0:4:46.980 Liz Palmer The nursing program was very busy. 0:4:48.510 --> 0:4:50.930 Liz Palmer We had lots of classes in. 0:4:50.940 --> 0:4:53.320 Liz Palmer Mike was interesting in my class Ottawa. 0:4:53.330 --> 0:5:1.930 Liz Palmer You the first year there were, I would say, 120 students, 130 students maybe. 0:5:1.940 --> 0:5:2.590 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:5:2.680 --> 0:5:6.440 Liz Palmer They seem to be a lot out, I'd say more than half of them were French speaking. 0:5:7.260 --> 0:5:11.430 Liz Palmer They had very little, if any, English. 0:5:11.580 --> 0:5:13.670 Liz Palmer Most of them came to Ottawa. 0:5:13.680 --> 0:5:17.550 Liz Palmer Because they were told they could take their course in French. 0:5:18.120 --> 0:5:25.600 Liz Palmer However, the nursing program at that time was very new in on Canada and especially on Ontario. 0:5:25.870 --> 0:5:30.910 Liz Palmer So they're all the teachers came from the US or had been trained in the US so they all spoke English. 0:5:31.640 --> 0:5:37.730 Liz Palmer So all the nursing programs were done in English, but they could do all their other classes in French. 0:5:38.260 --> 0:5:45.630 Liz Palmer So we lost, I would say at least 1/3 of the students after first year because they couldn't, they couldn't. 0:5:46.220 --> 0:5:52.870 Liz Palmer They weren't good enough in English to to pass to sit through the classes, so I don't know where they went. 0:5:52.880 --> 0:5:57.330 Liz Palmer They may have gone to to Montreal or to Sherbrooke, or I don't know where they went. 0:5:58.110 --> 0:6:2.320 Liz Palmer But the English, the nursing program was only offered in English. 0:6:2.330 --> 0:6:5.170 Liz Palmer I'm I'm not sure, but I think it still is even to this day. 0:6:6.400 --> 0:6:7.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Huh, that's interesting. 0:6:9.30 --> 0:6:10.590 Philippe Alain Paradis They were really just French. 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:12.60 Philippe Alain Paradis There weren't as many bilingual people? 0:6:12.660 --> 0:6:21.160 Liz Palmer Well, the bilingual students were fine, but there were a large number of French only students, and they came from all over Quebec. 0:6:21.420 --> 0:6:24.830 Liz Palmer Small a lot of them came from small towns, northern Ontario. 0:6:25.820 --> 0:6:29.500 Liz Palmer Some of them came from New Brunswick and and they only spoke French. 0:6:30.650 --> 0:6:35.460 Liz Palmer So, but anyone who was bilingual and and had enough English. 0:6:35.940 --> 0:6:36.290 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:6:36.300 --> 0:6:44.240 Liz Palmer A number of my friends were French Canadian and they but they were bilingual and they had enough of English that they could. 0:6:44.250 --> 0:6:51.120 Liz Palmer They could handle the course load, so that was fine, but if you were totally French, it was very difficult. 0:6:53.60 --> 0:7:1.240 Philippe Alain Paradis You might not know this cause it's like a really specific question, but do you have any information on if anglophones and francophones dated each other during the 1970s? 0:7:1.710 --> 0:7:2.820 Liz Palmer Oh, absolutely. 0:7:3.300 --> 0:7:3.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:7:3.210 --> 0:7:4.330 Liz Palmer Absolutely. Sure. 0:7:5.100 --> 0:7:5.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:7:7.70 --> 0:7:7.730 Liz Palmer Why wouldn't we? 0:7:6.270 --> 0:7:8.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, so we use the term alright. 0:7:10.940 --> 0:7:13.350 Philippe Alain Paradis I mean, I guess like the language barrier with a lot of them, right? 0:7:13.360 --> 0:7:15.580 Philippe Alain Paradis If they if they just spoke French, they. 0:7:16.270 --> 0:7:19.400 Liz Palmer Most I'll tell you, most French people speak some English. 0:7:19.870 --> 0:7:22.330 Liz Palmer Most English people don't speak very much French. 0:7:24.810 --> 0:7:25.800 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:7:23.370 --> 0:7:26.330 Philippe Alain Paradis I've I've found that to be true as well, yeah. 0:7:25.870 --> 0:7:35.910 Liz Palmer And I spoke, I I grew up in a Ottawa in a in a real working class neighborhood and I would say more than 50% of the people in my neighborhood spoke French. 0:7:39.70 --> 0:7:39.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:7:35.920 --> 0:7:39.900 Liz Palmer So I could speak French to A to some degree, yeah. 0:7:40.50 --> 0:7:40.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:7:40.730 --> 0:7:45.920 Philippe Alain Paradis So we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. 0:7:46.160 --> 0:7:50.910 Philippe Alain Paradis How do you describe the party culture on the University Ottawa campus during 70s? 0:7:52.480 --> 0:7:53.0 Liz Palmer Vibrant. 0:7:56.820 --> 0:7:57.470 Liz Palmer It was. 0:7:57.880 --> 0:8:0.230 Liz Palmer It was very active and it was great. 0:8:0.240 --> 0:8:0.600 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:8:0.660 --> 0:8:2.20 Liz Palmer Yeah, we had a lot of parties. 0:8:2.30 --> 0:8:5.530 Liz Palmer We I remember everything was face to face. 0:8:5.540 --> 0:8:7.360 Liz Palmer There was no virtual stuff. 0:8:7.670 --> 0:8:10.360 Liz Palmer Computers didn't really exist. 0:8:10.450 --> 0:8:12.10 Liz Palmer I had a friend who was in. 0:8:14.30 --> 0:8:19.870 Liz Palmer Uh, in computer math at in Kitchener. 0:8:19.880 --> 0:8:21.420 Liz Palmer Waterloo at Waterloo. 0:8:21.430 --> 0:8:23.590 Liz Palmer You and she. 0:8:24.710 --> 0:8:31.60 Liz Palmer I would go down to visit her and I would go into would go in at 2:00, o'clock in the morning to play, quote, unquote play on the computer. 0:8:31.70 --> 0:8:34.270 Liz Palmer And the computer was the size of a of a huge room, right? 0:8:35.80 --> 0:8:42.240 Liz Palmer So computers, that's the that's that was probably 7273 somewhere in there. 0:8:42.330 --> 0:8:48.900 Liz Palmer So at that point, there were no tabletop computers or anything that you could that you could easily use. 0:8:49.50 --> 0:8:52.460 Liz Palmer There were no phones like cell phones or anything like that. 0:8:52.470 --> 0:9:4.90 Liz Palmer So yeah, the whole culture was, uh, face to face party, music, dancing, you know, different things like that. So. 0:9:5.20 --> 0:9:5.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:9:5.370 --> 0:9:7.390 Philippe Alain Paradis You really had to like if you want to have fun. 0:9:12.540 --> 0:9:13.250 Liz Palmer Well, it was. 0:9:7.400 --> 0:9:13.300 Philippe Alain Paradis You really have to like set up events and stuff that there wasn't as much digital stuff you want or any digital stuff you could do, yeah. 0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:15.590 Liz Palmer It was normal to set stuff up. 0:9:16.270 --> 0:9:16.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:9:15.600 --> 0:9:22.270 Liz Palmer I mean, whether you go down to the market, the market was a place that you could go to, but it wasn't the way it is now. 0:9:22.780 --> 0:9:28.170 Liz Palmer Leibu was on Sussex and then there were a couple of other coffee houses in the city, but. 0:9:30.360 --> 0:9:36.650 Liz Palmer If you wanted to meet people, you had to go out and and it was just you. 0:9:36.660 --> 0:9:38.410 Liz Palmer Just everybody just went out all the time. 0:9:38.420 --> 0:9:43.110 Liz Palmer It was none of this, like, you know, covid's really put a damper on a whole lot of stuff. 0:9:43.120 --> 0:9:45.860 Liz Palmer So life was very, very different. 0:9:46.820 --> 0:9:47.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:9:47.240 --> 0:9:51.430 Philippe Alain Paradis Today, if you want to go to a party, you like have to seek it out pretty intensely. 0:9:52.580 --> 0:9:53.490 Liz Palmer Yeah, I. 0:9:51.440 --> 0:9:55.980 Philippe Alain Paradis I find like the you have to, you have to really look for it. Umm. 0:9:56.40 --> 0:10:1.650 Liz Palmer So yeah, the and the girls that lived in the I lived at home, I say half the class. 0:10:1.660 --> 0:10:4.350 Liz Palmer The My class still lived at home in Ottawa. 0:10:4.800 --> 0:10:11.290 Liz Palmer A few were from outside the city and a number of people lived, you know, on on campus. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.830 Liz Palmer And there were campus. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.320 Liz Palmer There were parties, you know, and on campus as well. 0:10:17.810 --> 0:10:21.70 Liz Palmer And there was, I think there were. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:31.540 Liz Palmer Not that I went there very often, but there were small little cafes all around the university and you could go there and just drink. 0:10:31.630 --> 0:10:35.180 Liz Palmer They didn't have booze or anything, but you go drink coffee and meet your friends and stuff. 0:10:35.190 --> 0:10:37.60 Liz Palmer And there were a number of those places around. 0:10:37.810 --> 0:10:40.60 Liz Palmer There were couple on on Laurie. 0:10:40.70 --> 0:10:48.300 Liz Palmer There was a coffee, quote unquote coffee house at the university, but it was kind of more like a, you know, a great big open area. 0:10:48.310 --> 0:10:53.240 Liz Palmer It wasn't very intimate or small or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:57.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:10:54.930 --> 0:11:0.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Total like 180 from that what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:11:2.320 --> 0:11:3.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like the general sentiment. 0:11:6.390 --> 0:11:7.410 Liz Palmer Pretty much over by then. 0:11:8.340 --> 0:11:8.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.750 Liz Palmer It was in my life. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.90 Liz Palmer It wasn't a huge deal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.480 Liz Palmer The bigger deal, because I was at school during the October crisis. 0:11:18.620 --> 0:11:18.810 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:11:18.740 --> 0:11:19.50 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:11:18.820 --> 0:11:19.770 Liz Palmer With the FLQ. 0:11:19.780 --> 0:11:25.880 Liz Palmer So when I was walking up to school, there were soldiers in the streets and there were tanks in the streets. 0:11:26.860 --> 0:11:39.100 Liz Palmer And that was interesting, I mean, but it just was there, I mean those things you know, if there's, you know you're walking up to school one day cause I lived in new Edinburgh and I would walk up to Ottawa. 0:11:39.110 --> 0:11:51.990 Liz Palmer You where I take the bus and all of a sudden there were tanks in the streets and there were and they because Ottawa U was a French university, quote unquote. It was. 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:54.180 Liz Palmer It was classified as a French university. 0:11:55.590 --> 0:11:57.860 Liz Palmer They had a lot of soldiers and stuff around there. 0:11:57.870 --> 0:12:4.810 Liz Palmer Nothing ever happened, but it because of the FLQ crisis and everything that happened after that, there was a lot of. 0:12:7.360 --> 0:12:12.770 Liz Palmer I guess there was a lot of people watching to make sure nothing else would happen, but I never saw anything happened. 0:12:12.780 --> 0:12:19.900 Liz Palmer I just remember walking up and seeing this and being thinking ohh, but I wasn't terribly politically involved at that point. 0:12:26.910 --> 0:12:28.470 Liz Palmer Exactly, yeah. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:34.420 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, that, that reminds me a little bit of my first year when I am I could hear like the trucker convoy honking like it's it's just kind of jarring to know that there's like a large group of people that in, like, tensions are really high. 0:12:34.490 --> 0:12:34.690 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that must have been something to witness. 0:12:36.970 --> 0:12:42.240 Liz Palmer It it it was, it was quite something that we never seen anything like that before, right? 0:12:42.250 --> 0:12:50.30 Liz Palmer And but there was no like, I mean there my parents would say, well, I I tell them what happened and they say, oh, well, just stay out of the neighborhood or walk around it. 0:12:50.40 --> 0:12:56.520 Liz Palmer And nobody had little fits about, you know, all the oh, my God, my kids gonna get killed or something. 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:57.120 Liz Palmer It was nothing. 0:13:1.260 --> 0:13:1.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:12:58.180 --> 0:13:2.370 Liz Palmer I guess people just didn't realize what could have happened if something had happened. 0:13:2.380 --> 0:13:4.600 Liz Palmer You know, I don't know, but. 0:13:4.700 --> 0:13:13.510 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, it's interesting that people weren't as well, like, at least some people weren't as interested in the Vietnam War cause the way like I was taught it, it was such like a contentious thing. 0:13:13.740 --> 0:13:16.840 Philippe Alain Paradis But I guess by the 70s it was, it was mostly done with. 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:18.800 Liz Palmer It was contentious in the states. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:13:19.50 --> 0:13:21.330 Liz Palmer There were in Canada. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.890 Liz Palmer There were. 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:39.810 Liz Palmer There was a woman in my class whose husband was a deserter or a conscientious objector or deserter, according to whichever side you were on and and she and she and her husband moved up from the States and she was quite a bit older. 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:49.550 Liz Palmer She was probably in her mid mid 20s and she had a child at that point, so they came up ohm because of that and that was always interesting. 0:13:49.560 --> 0:13:49.920 Liz Palmer You talked? 0:13:49.930 --> 0:13:53.260 Liz Palmer Or kept in touch with her for years and years after. 0:13:53.430 --> 0:13:54.420 Liz Palmer But they never went back. 0:13:55.430 --> 0:14:0.920 Liz Palmer They stayed in Canada that they liked it and they didn't want their son to end up going through what they had gone through. 0:14:0.930 --> 0:14:3.980 Liz Palmer But I mean, it was in the news all the time and whatever. 0:14:3.990 --> 0:14:10.780 Liz Palmer But it was just part of it's, you know, part of the regular news news reports. 0:14:11.710 --> 0:14:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm so rock'n'roll artists and the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:33.840 Liz Palmer Thanking care one way or the other, my parents were from Switzerland, so they were first generate like they were. 0:14:34.70 --> 0:14:43.0 Liz Palmer They both came in the late 40s and had every intention of moving back to Switzerland, but then somehow with four kids, it didn't happen. 0:14:43.370 --> 0:14:44.270 Liz Palmer So they were really. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:46.890 Liz Palmer Music. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.330 Liz Palmer Yeah, rock'n'roll was just a type of music for them. 0:14:49.340 --> 0:14:52.360 Liz Palmer They didn't particularly like it, but we didn't. 0:14:52.510 --> 0:14:59.790 Liz Palmer I didn't really start listening to the radio till I was about 12 years old, maybe 12 or 13 or so. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:8.880 Liz Palmer That would have been what, 6465, somewhere like that, as I really didn't know much about the music at all. 0:15:8.890 --> 0:15:10.360 Liz Palmer And I was the oldest of four. 0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:15.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:15:10.370 --> 0:15:15.700 Liz Palmer So U the others followed whatever they wanted to. 0:15:17.430 --> 0:15:20.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So they were kind of just indifferent about it, uh. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.220 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:15:22.70 --> 0:15:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Uh, so some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.20 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 70s? 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:34.330 Liz Palmer Not quite available. 0:15:33.470 --> 0:15:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis If you know, yeah. 0:15:34.620 --> 0:15:35.990 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were quite available. 0:15:36.380 --> 0:15:37.290 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were. 0:15:37.300 --> 0:15:43.510 Liz Palmer There was always somebody you could always buy something you always knew there was somebody around who could get stuff for you. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:47.450 Liz Palmer Never did anything for me, just made me feel sick. 0:15:47.460 --> 0:15:48.900 Liz Palmer So I never did much of it. 0:15:49.550 --> 0:15:51.370 Liz Palmer Umm so it's. 0:15:53.820 --> 0:15:57.270 Liz Palmer And we were so busy with other things that we didn't have time for that. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:7.700 Liz Palmer I mean, you know when when you're doing a nursing program, you went to school five days a week and then, but then you had to do, we had to be in the hospital 3 mornings a week. 0:16:7.710 --> 0:16:11.370 Liz Palmer So you didn't have time to, you didn't have time for any of that nonsense. 0:16:11.380 --> 0:16:18.810 Liz Palmer And we were all older and most of us, well, certainly me didn't have any access to it. 0:16:18.820 --> 0:16:24.30 Liz Palmer I went to a Catholic girls high school, so it was pretty strict and my family was very strict. 0:16:24.140 --> 0:16:26.930 Liz Palmer So I never really had got into this. 0:16:34.80 --> 0:16:34.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:29.0 --> 0:16:37.130 Liz Palmer Probably until I got to university, but and it was never a big deal for me or my friends, yeah. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Today it's pretty common like today, it's pretty common. 0:16:37.780 --> 0:16:41.430 Philippe Alain Paradis You'll see, like I'll be in the parking lot and I'll see someone smoking something a little funny. 0:16:42.110 --> 0:16:42.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.970 Philippe Alain Paradis And and you know it's it's very it was it open like that back then like it was just or well a more secretive. 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.840 Liz Palmer No, no, because it it was far more secretive. 0:16:49.850 --> 0:17:1.830 Liz Palmer I mean, I mean, the best thing was, is I remember we go to parties and there were brownies and I love brownies, so I would eat these brownies and and feel really weird after that. 0:17:1.840 --> 0:17:4.160 Liz Palmer And then somebody would say how many did you have? 0:17:4.170 --> 0:17:9.790 Liz Palmer And I say I had two or three and I said, Oh my God, you better go home or go sit in the corner and fall asleep. 0:17:9.800 --> 0:17:11.730 Liz Palmer So that's all it ever did and made me sleep. 0:17:11.740 --> 0:17:21.460 Liz Palmer So I was no fun at a party if they if if there were any drugs like that around it, it just wasn't something I wanted to waste my time or my money on. 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:22.610 Liz Palmer I didn't have any money either. 0:17:22.620 --> 0:17:24.770 Liz Palmer So you know that was the other thing too. 0:17:24.0 --> 0:17:26.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, not super appealing. 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:27.590 Liz Palmer No. 0:17:29.260 --> 0:17:38.930 Philippe Alain Paradis And the 19 in the 1970s see a lot of talk about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach like a higher state of consciousness. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you know like to what extent people use Hallucinogenics specifically? 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:46.950 Liz Palmer Not many people I knew. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 Liz Palmer We just, we all just figured it was stupid to do that. 0:17:50.700 --> 0:17:50.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Fair. 0:17:50.620 --> 0:17:52.610 Liz Palmer So why would you want to do that to yourself? 0:17:53.460 --> 0:17:53.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:17:53.780 --> 0:17:58.590 Liz Palmer Like we, we were not umm, we're very practical. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:1.60 Liz Palmer Down to Earth people, I don't know that it was just not. 0:18:2.680 --> 0:18:17.180 Liz Palmer I mean, I guess also because we were in nursing in medicine, we would see the results of some of this and it was very you know when we're doing mental health, there were a lot of people at the royal at that time who had tripped badly and there was no way I was gonna do any of that stuff. 0:18:18.170 --> 0:18:18.880 Philippe Alain Paradis That's interesting. 0:18:18.890 --> 0:18:23.230 Philippe Alain Paradis You actually got to see like the the bad results from that. Umm. 0:18:23.20 --> 0:18:23.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:34.910 Liz Palmer And if some of them were pretty awful, I mean that that was, I think the thing being in medicine or nursing or anything is that you you saw the result of bad medicine or bad tripping or bad drugs or whatever it was. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.540 Liz Palmer And you know, it was not pleasant. 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.100 Liz Palmer And and again we weren't. 0:18:39.90 --> 0:18:40.220 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you get a lot of those? 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.580 Liz Palmer There were some. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.70 Liz Palmer You know, we surgeries that went bad. 0:18:48.80 --> 0:19:4.610 Liz Palmer Uh, I saw a 12 year old have a baby and decided that point that maybe you know that having an abortion was not a bad thing, got into a lot of our angry discussions with my own parents who are fiercely Catholic and whatever. 0:19:4.620 --> 0:19:15.350 Liz Palmer And at that point, I left the church, and because there's no way that I could ever condone a 12 year old having a baby because that was, you know, she was my she was my client. 0:19:15.360 --> 0:19:20.280 Liz Palmer And I'm thinking, Holy God, you know, that's just not a way for anybody to start their life. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Nope. 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:22.540 Liz Palmer No. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, alright, so this one. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:30.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:43.250 Philippe Alain Paradis Will this next section will focus more on the female experience, so cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.80 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:49.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:54.310 --> 0:19:54.820 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:59.800 Liz Palmer I mean, there was we, we read all the the books and we, you know, we followed all that sort of stuff. 0:20:0.810 --> 0:20:2.530 Liz Palmer Probably more so than the war in Vietnam. 0:20:5.830 --> 0:20:14.760 Liz Palmer But everything was changing at that time, so it was very different from probably people have been at university in the 60s like. 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:25.730 Liz Palmer I mean, if you if you would talk to someone who was university in the 60s, if you'd get it very different viewpoint, I think umm, it was accepted that women would work. 0:20:26.740 --> 0:20:30.360 Liz Palmer It was accepted that, you know, women would get equal pay. 0:20:32.70 --> 0:20:33.130 Liz Palmer Uh, of course. 0:20:33.140 --> 0:20:36.170 Liz Palmer At that point, everybody is saying, oh, yes, yes, yes, that's the way it is. 0:20:36.180 --> 0:20:42.380 Liz Palmer And it wasn't till 20 years later that we realized that women were being paid less for the same jobs. 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:42.980 Liz Palmer Right. 0:20:43.580 --> 0:20:43.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:20:43.860 --> 0:20:44.580 Philippe Alain Paradis They're wage gap. 0:20:43.90 --> 0:20:44.860 Liz Palmer But that had yet to come. 0:20:45.130 --> 0:20:45.530 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:20:45.590 --> 0:20:51.360 Liz Palmer So the so the possibilities were there, everybody looked forward to things changing. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.560 Liz Palmer You know the burn, your bra thing that was there were a lot of went to a lot of those sorts of rallies and things like that. 0:21:0.580 --> 0:21:6.130 Liz Palmer Umm, but honestly, we were so busy we didn't have time to do a lot of that. 0:21:6.140 --> 0:21:12.420 Liz Palmer I mean, we were busy living our life and going to school and doing stuff was, you know, we didn't. 0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:14.450 Liz Palmer You had to hand write all your essays. 0:21:15.770 --> 0:21:17.140 Liz Palmer I didn't have a typewriter. 0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:25.60 Liz Palmer So you can imagine like you know, you were busy doing stuff and you actually had to go to a library and use books to look things up. 0:21:25.70 --> 0:21:27.0 Liz Palmer There was nothing online to do it. 0:21:27.10 --> 0:21:33.760 Liz Palmer So your life was busy doing things that now take a tenth of the time of what they used to take. 0:21:35.250 --> 0:21:35.710 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:21:34.730 --> 0:21:44.340 Liz Palmer And there's no there were no chat bots or whatever to get you through stuff, and there was no AI to write your papers for you or anything, you know. 0:21:44.350 --> 0:21:46.340 Liz Palmer So it was it was. 0:21:46.570 --> 0:21:47.280 Liz Palmer It was different. 0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:47.660 Liz Palmer It was a very. 0:21:49.450 --> 0:21:56.290 Liz Palmer Different time and I guess for women, I do remember I had a a friend in my class. 0:21:56.300 --> 0:21:58.560 Liz Palmer Her father was a physician here in Ottawa. 0:21:58.670 --> 0:22:0.440 Liz Palmer Old, old fashioned. 0:22:0.890 --> 0:22:1.740 Liz Palmer Nice man. 0:22:1.750 --> 0:22:3.310 Liz Palmer Old-fashioned French Canadian. 0:22:5.360 --> 0:22:7.190 Liz Palmer His daughter is was brilliant. 0:22:7.280 --> 0:22:14.770 Liz Palmer Probably the smartest of the whole family should have been a position, but he wouldn't allow her to do medicine because she was a girl. 0:22:14.820 --> 0:22:22.400 Liz Palmer Because women should stay home and have babies and look after their families and and at the time, I couldn't. 0:22:25.340 --> 0:22:25.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.830 Liz Palmer I I had really had a problem with that because. 0:22:25.630 --> 0:22:33.630 Philippe Alain Paradis So you went to like some events because like, I imagine that probably like sure like that made you feel stuff there that that's pretty that's pretty like upsetting to hear. 0:22:33.980 --> 0:22:35.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. Yeah. 0:22:33.930 --> 0:22:37.690 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, it was I I found it very upsetting but I have to. 0:22:38.580 --> 0:22:44.210 Liz Palmer It wasn't till years later till I realized that my parents were very different from a lot of other. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:47.70 Liz Palmer I came from a low a very working class neighborhood. 0:22:48.490 --> 0:22:54.350 Liz Palmer My parents both worked with no choice because they, but because they came from Europe, they were. 0:22:54.360 --> 0:22:58.320 Liz Palmer They weren't German, they were Swiss, but they were always treated as if they were German. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:22:59.990 Liz Palmer So post war, that was a big deal. 0:23:2.400 --> 0:23:12.10 Liz Palmer But my parents always said to said to my sister and I at the two oldest you guys are going to go to university like there was never any option that we wouldn't go. 0:23:13.50 --> 0:23:17.0 Liz Palmer It was expected that we would go to university and that's all there was to it. 0:23:17.170 --> 0:23:18.420 Liz Palmer We grew up that way. 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:30.700 Liz Palmer My brothers, my two younger brothers, went as well and I didn't realize till I was quite a bit older than a lot of women like they had to pay their own way to go to universe. 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:35.580 Liz Palmer Their parents wouldn't pay for it because women didn't go to university in those days. 0:23:36.130 --> 0:23:36.710 Liz Palmer They just didn't. 0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:41.450 Liz Palmer Umm, it was just you would go to. 0:23:41.460 --> 0:23:43.190 Liz Palmer You know you could work in the government. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:44.790 Liz Palmer You could do secretarial school. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:52.470 Liz Palmer I had good friends that did secretarial school, but out of my like, I'm thinking about my my sort of grade school class. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.100 Liz Palmer My even my high school, my high school class, was the best. 0:23:56.770 --> 0:24:10.780 Liz Palmer Graduated June 1970, I would say 1/3 of 1/3 of my class went on to university and I would say about half my class got married because they were. 0:24:11.130 --> 0:24:14.960 Liz Palmer They were Italian background so they got it. 0:24:15.70 --> 0:24:21.560 Liz Palmer They were lucky they got through high school and then they got married that summer and then the rest of us went on to do different things. 0:24:21.570 --> 0:24:25.310 Liz Palmer And I say maybe 1/3 of us out of that class went on to university. 0:24:26.120 --> 0:24:27.620 Liz Palmer So it was a very different time. 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:28.830 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:24:34.860 --> 0:24:36.750 Liz Palmer I wasn't inequality, it's just the way it was. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:37.230 Liz Palmer It was. 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:37.470 Philippe Alain Paradis So like as you went along, you started being exposed to more of these like injustices and like inequalities and a little bit, right? 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.70 Liz Palmer It was cultural. 0:24:38.80 --> 0:24:46.280 Liz Palmer It was very, very cultural and because because it was a Catholic girls school, there were a lot of Italian young ladies there. 0:24:46.290 --> 0:24:52.180 Liz Palmer They were friends, but those of us that weren't that were from different backgrounds. 0:24:52.190 --> 0:25:0.140 Liz Palmer I would say uh, as I said about 1/3 a third of bus went on to university and and finished university and did different things. 0:25:1.550 --> 0:25:4.140 Liz Palmer But then a whole lot of them didn't. 0:25:4.210 --> 0:25:7.960 Liz Palmer You know, some went on to secretarial school, some worked in a government. 0:25:9.40 --> 0:25:12.110 Liz Palmer It was umm, but I didn't realize again. 0:25:12.120 --> 0:25:21.280 Liz Palmer As I said earlier, until much later in life that my family was very different because the expectation was that we would go to university and my parents paid for it. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:22.160 Liz Palmer That was the other thing. 0:25:22.780 --> 0:25:23.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:25:22.750 --> 0:25:23.390 Liz Palmer My dad. 0:25:23.120 --> 0:25:23.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you. 0:25:23.470 --> 0:25:24.130 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:24.350 --> 0:25:25.240 Liz Palmer Yeah, my dad sort. 0:25:29.220 --> 0:25:29.370 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:32.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, you didn't realize like maybe later other people wouldn't agree with that, like other people might not like the notion of a woman going. Yeah. 0:25:33.980 --> 0:25:34.200 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:34.690 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, no women didn't. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:41.90 Liz Palmer There was still that that old fashioned idea that women don't go to university, they don't need higher education because they're just gonna get married. 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.100 Liz Palmer And they're gonna have kids, and they're gonna stay home. 0:25:43.850 --> 0:25:49.490 Liz Palmer Well, neither myself, my sister nor my good friends did any of that. 0:25:49.500 --> 0:25:50.800 Liz Palmer We we all. 0:25:50.860 --> 0:25:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, most of us married, we all had jobs. 0:25:53.210 --> 0:25:53.910 Liz Palmer We worked. 0:25:54.330 --> 0:26:7.310 Liz Palmer We were like that whole generation of younger women that had our children use daycare or whatever and and continued working right up until we retired. 0:26:8.700 --> 0:26:9.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:9.330 --> 0:26:13.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:26:14.120 --> 0:26:14.630 Philippe Alain Paradis How did? 0:26:14.740 --> 0:26:15.470 Philippe Alain Paradis How did that? 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:16.790 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:26:17.180 --> 0:26:17.620 Liz Palmer No kidding. 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:18.250 Philippe Alain Paradis How did peeing a woman? 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:18.890 Philippe Alain Paradis How? 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis How is it being a woman result in different treatments and expectations in classrooms where at social events compared to male students? 0:26:27.970 --> 0:26:31.120 Liz Palmer It's hard to say because most everyone in my class was female. 0:26:31.130 --> 0:26:33.390 Liz Palmer There were no male students, so. 0:26:33.450 --> 0:26:34.20 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:34.750 --> 0:26:41.770 Liz Palmer So in those days, yes, if you were going in to a building, the men would hold the door for you. 0:26:44.300 --> 0:26:44.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:26:44.230 --> 0:26:45.340 Liz Palmer That's all I. 0:26:45.380 --> 0:26:52.360 Liz Palmer But as you know, when it came to other, I think expectations of female students and male students were the same. 0:26:52.370 --> 0:26:53.480 Liz Palmer You had to produce. 0:26:53.790 --> 0:26:58.950 Liz Palmer You know, if there was paperwork to be done or essays to be written, you had to produce those. 0:27:0.540 --> 0:27:5.150 Liz Palmer I don't because my class was all women and all taught by women. 0:27:5.160 --> 0:27:7.670 Liz Palmer There were no male teachers either it. 0:27:8.800 --> 0:27:16.300 Liz Palmer I mean, I took the psychology and philosophy and I did some film classes and art classes and stuff, but. 0:27:21.150 --> 0:27:21.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:27:18.470 --> 0:27:22.210 Liz Palmer I didn't feel that there was any difference, to be honest. Yeah. 0:27:24.230 --> 0:27:24.990 Liz Palmer That was it, yeah. 0:27:21.670 --> 0:27:26.250 Philippe Alain Paradis You just attended class and did the work and that was that. Yeah. 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:39.160 Philippe Alain Paradis So in the 1970s, were there, you oughta programs, departments or clubs or like just social events or anything where women like or maybe you or just women in general, like felt less like present and accepted. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:42.930 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:43.930 Liz Palmer No, I never felt that. 0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:45.260 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:27:45.340 --> 0:27:47.130 Liz Palmer Now if I wanted to be there, I'd be there. 0:27:47.140 --> 0:27:49.500 Liz Palmer If I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. 0:27:49.860 --> 0:28:0.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, alright, so historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:28:1.390 --> 0:28:1.640 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:28:0.100 --> 0:28:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? 0:28:13.170 --> 0:28:15.380 Liz Palmer Umm interesting question. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:23.140 Liz Palmer I think we all felt the need to see it to get into a better world, for sure. 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:30.150 Liz Palmer Umm, we certainly felt that women were equal to anything a man did. 0:28:31.370 --> 0:28:31.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:28:34.650 --> 0:28:41.450 Liz Palmer There were probably guys I met that were stupid, but you know, they didn't last long in my world. 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.870 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.320 Liz Palmer I most of the boyfriends I had were older. 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:54.700 Liz Palmer UM, at the time the like. 0:28:54.710 --> 0:28:55.360 Liz Palmer It was interesting. 0:28:55.370 --> 0:29:1.590 Liz Palmer The engineers in our building were big drinkers, Big partiers. 0:29:2.850 --> 0:29:10.180 Liz Palmer I don't know if they're still the same I, but at the time that's the way they were the, you know, there was the football games and all that stuff. 0:29:10.190 --> 0:29:12.180 Liz Palmer And they were always drunk or whatever. 0:29:12.570 --> 0:29:21.230 Liz Palmer And they always sort of made stupid comments, but as we got to know them and they got to know us as people, it was that kind of disappeared. 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:22.470 Philippe Alain Paradis But humanize them. 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.610 Liz Palmer But that whole? 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.310 Liz Palmer Yeah, exactly. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.510 Liz Palmer But you know at the beginning it was all this stupid stuff and we just told them to get stuffed. 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:37.390 Liz Palmer And I mean, it was just most of our friends most we did a lot of work with the with medicine. 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:51.740 Liz Palmer Like we took some of our courses with the medical students and as we got to know them really well, like the people in that like their first year medicine and stuff we did, we did some anatomy and Physiology classes over at the medical building. 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:52.260 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:29:52.270 --> 0:30:2.930 Liz Palmer I don't think they do that anymore, but I I don't know how it's set up, but we got to know those guys and there were a few women, but again, it was mainly men there as well. 0:30:3.630 --> 0:30:8.0 Liz Palmer So and the and the nursing was all was all women and all female teachers. 0:30:8.10 --> 0:30:10.970 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess. 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:13.780 Liz Palmer I don't. 0:30:17.780 --> 0:30:18.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:30:15.10 --> 0:30:20.170 Liz Palmer I don't remember being terribly conscious about it, but it was certainly something that we were aware of. 0:30:20.180 --> 0:30:20.910 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:30:22.330 --> 0:30:30.120 Philippe Alain Paradis And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents, notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:30:35.780 --> 0:30:37.690 Liz Palmer Yeah, well, that was an interesting one. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:45.100 Liz Palmer Umm my, I would go on a date in the first thing my mother would say is what is this father do and where does he go to church? 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.390 Liz Palmer And I said I have no clue. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:48.250 Liz Palmer I could just. 0:30:48.820 --> 0:30:52.330 Liz Palmer To me, that was that was the traditional role, right? 0:30:52.700 --> 0:30:58.390 Liz Palmer I I remember at one point I was going out with a fellow for for quite a while and my mother was getting very insistent. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.870 Liz Palmer I said, mom, I'm going to dinner. 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:9.470 Liz Palmer I'm not marrying the man and she was, like, totally blown away because if you were going out to someone, then the possibility was there that you're in it, married. 0:31:9.480 --> 0:31:10.450 Liz Palmer And I said absolutely not. 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.330 Liz Palmer I mean, we're just going out for dinner. 0:31:12.340 --> 0:31:13.890 Liz Palmer We're going to a movie. 0:31:13.900 --> 0:31:15.150 Liz Palmer We're going to a concert. 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:16.450 Liz Palmer You know, whatever it is. 0:31:17.140 --> 0:31:29.570 Liz Palmer So I I would say that yes, our our notions of dating and marriage and and as I mentioned, you know, some religious notions were were very much at odds with each other. 0:31:29.580 --> 0:31:36.720 Liz Palmer But you had to respect your parents because they were older and they lived a different through a very different time than we did. 0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:42.440 Liz Palmer Umm, but that didn't mean that I had to follow like as I said with the religious thing. 0:31:42.450 --> 0:31:47.40 Liz Palmer And there were things I saw when I was working in the hospital. 0:31:47.50 --> 0:31:55.660 Liz Palmer And you know things that happened to people as a result of stupid religious stuff like, you know, not being able to have an abortion or something and it. 0:31:55.670 --> 0:31:59.460 Liz Palmer And as I said, that was I would never do that for myself. 0:32:3.800 --> 0:32:4.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:31:59.470 --> 0:32:4.990 Liz Palmer But then I never got myself in that into that position either, so yeah. 0:32:4.900 --> 0:32:9.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that's interesting, because that's a like the way that you see the situation of just going to the movies with someone. 0:32:9.860 --> 0:32:13.470 Philippe Alain Paradis And the way that your parents look at it is so vastly different. 0:32:13.590 --> 0:32:14.60 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.740 Philippe Alain Paradis It's like you're not like marriage is not a thing that like you're going to a movie. 0:32:16.540 --> 0:32:17.910 Liz Palmer Yo, I got I. 0:32:18.340 --> 0:32:20.190 Liz Palmer Yeah, and all the time. 0:32:20.380 --> 0:32:20.520 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:28.240 Liz Palmer I mean, most of my friends during that time, we all, most of us married in in the end. 0:32:30.0 --> 0:32:32.990 Liz Palmer But it wasn't till later and I actually got married. 0:32:33.0 --> 0:32:33.790 Liz Palmer I met my husband. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.290 Liz Palmer I graduated in June. 0:32:35.660 --> 0:32:47.130 Liz Palmer I met my husband the following September and we got married the following June and most of my friends got married after that course and a couple got married. 0:32:47.190 --> 0:32:57.810 Liz Palmer Just sort of at the end of that school year, those four years because it was just too hard to deal with marriage and living together and all that other kind of stuff. 0:32:58.700 --> 0:32:59.130 Liz Palmer A lot. 0:32:59.140 --> 0:33:4.790 Liz Palmer A number of people did live together with their boyfriends, but that again was later on. 0:33:6.390 --> 0:33:16.350 Liz Palmer Ottawa was still a pretty small town in those days and we weren't big city people either, so there was a lot of it was still a little bit of that hanging on. 0:33:17.60 --> 0:33:17.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:25.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And looking back at the 70s, what aspects of Canadian society do you see most out of whack and either fixing? 0:33:25.40 --> 0:33:28.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what were you the most passionate about problems wise? 0:33:30.250 --> 0:33:32.160 Liz Palmer Sorry, I don't really understand that question. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:39.80 Philippe Alain Paradis I'm like for example like it could be like feminism or something like what in Canadian society back then. 0:33:41.930 --> 0:33:47.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel like the strongest about that you felt needed changing like a societal thing? 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.200 Liz Palmer Oh, I see. 0:33:49.710 --> 0:33:49.950 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:33:51.340 --> 0:34:0.460 Liz Palmer While religion was still very, very strong, had a big especially in a small town like like Ottawa was a small town a feminism. 0:34:3.90 --> 0:34:4.450 Liz Palmer Was certainly talked about. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:11.610 Liz Palmer I looked on with a great deal of hmm, you know, do we do? 0:34:11.620 --> 0:34:12.590 Liz Palmer Do we want this or not? 0:34:15.820 --> 0:34:32.170 Liz Palmer I I would think that religion really, when it comes down to it was it was still had a huge hold on and certainly in the early 70s had a huge hold on how people thought about their lives, about how they lived it, umm, how they brought up their children. 0:34:33.330 --> 0:34:37.300 Liz Palmer Ah, what they would stand for and what they wouldn't so. 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:45.670 Liz Palmer Yeah, families at the war in Vietnam also was an issue because we had so many people. 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:55.730 Liz Palmer We we know there were a number of people that came up to Ontario and there were other people that I had met later on in the years that came up because of that. Umm. 0:34:58.130 --> 0:34:59.600 Liz Palmer We didn't have a lot of money. 0:34:59.610 --> 0:35:1.0 Liz Palmer Money was still a big issue. 0:35:1.10 --> 0:35:10.560 Liz Palmer Money was still a really big class issue in those days too, so if you didn't have a lot of money, you didn't travel, you didn't have the fancy clothes. 0:35:10.570 --> 0:35:13.140 Liz Palmer You didn't live in the fancy houses. 0:35:13.150 --> 0:35:21.620 Liz Palmer You, you know, again, as I say, I came from a pretty working class neighborhood, but my parents, you know, they did everything for us kids. 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:30.60 Liz Palmer They they lived and so their children could do, I guess, could do better in their life, right? 0:35:29.260 --> 0:35:30.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm yeah. 0:35:32.370 --> 0:35:33.80 Liz Palmer There wasn't. 0:35:33.90 --> 0:35:39.810 Liz Palmer It's not like now when you know people have kids and they kind of let them go feral and do whatever they want. 0:35:41.150 --> 0:35:43.50 Liz Palmer Your parents, you know, you came home. 0:35:43.60 --> 0:35:44.860 Liz Palmer You had dinner every night together. 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:49.80 Liz Palmer Uh, and that's what I did with we did with our own children. 0:35:49.90 --> 0:35:50.660 Liz Palmer Is that, you know, dinner was important. 0:35:50.670 --> 0:35:54.820 Liz Palmer You had to come home, have dinner, unless you had a hockey practice or something like that. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:56.910 Liz Palmer But family came first. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:2.0 Liz Palmer Your work and then your schooling, etcetera came was ever. 0:36:3.470 --> 0:36:4.780 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues? 0:36:4.790 --> 0:36:6.840 Philippe Alain Paradis It sounds like you mentioned religion a few times. 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:15.840 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:36:6.850 --> 0:36:19.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues that like to at the time you were, like, frustrated about it like you like, like like you mentioned for example, like religion a few times like you saw someone at like in that, like clearly needed an abortion. 0:36:19.570 --> 0:36:23.410 Philippe Alain Paradis So like that sounds like that like struck a chord with you a little bit like, yeah. 0:36:22.90 --> 0:36:23.980 Liz Palmer Ohh definitely that was a it was. 0:36:23.990 --> 0:36:32.400 Liz Palmer It was a very big deal for me and because my parents were such staunch Catholics, that became an issue in our family, between myself and my mom. 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:40.650 Liz Palmer My dad was pretty easy going because my excuse me, my dad was originally Lutheran but became Catholic. 0:36:40.660 --> 0:36:44.30 Liz Palmer So he could marry my mother because she wouldn't marry him if he wasn't cast like so. 0:36:44.40 --> 0:36:51.20 Liz Palmer That's how strong her religion was, and we were brought up very strictly in the Catholic faith and we didn't know any better. 0:36:51.30 --> 0:36:53.540 Liz Palmer And we, you know, we actually had a very good life. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:55.150 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:36:56.370 --> 0:36:58.290 Liz Palmer And you know, very safe. 0:36:58.720 --> 0:37:2.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, like I mean, you know, we were never in any danger. 0:37:2.640 --> 0:37:3.840 Liz Palmer We always had enough food. 0:37:5.290 --> 0:37:14.920 Liz Palmer I mean, when you look at what people are going through today, we actually even though we didn't have a lot, we were always you know, well looked after well fed and well loved. 0:37:15.720 --> 0:37:27.120 Liz Palmer But as we got as my sister and I both got older and even my brothers, because they are quite a bit younger than we are, we all left the church behind, which was really interesting. 0:37:27.170 --> 0:37:28.20 Liz Palmer None of us. 0:37:29.290 --> 0:37:32.970 Liz Palmer Well, my kids, I took my kids to church. 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.300 Liz Palmer They went to Sunday school, but my husband's not Catholic. 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:39.970 Liz Palmer My mother in law just about died when she had to go to a Catholic Church. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.940 Liz Palmer We got married. 0:37:40.950 --> 0:37:44.510 Liz Palmer That was hard for her, but you know, it was those. 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:45.850 Liz Palmer So those religious things? 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:48.580 Liz Palmer Protestant, Catholic, whatever were very, very strong. 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:57.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:37:51.190 --> 0:37:59.30 Liz Palmer But I guess that that was probably the biggest, the biggest thing, I think until until we got older and things. 0:38:1.520 --> 0:38:2.240 Philippe Alain Paradis Mellow down. 0:38:1.140 --> 0:38:2.770 Liz Palmer Sort of resolved, but again my. 0:38:2.840 --> 0:38:4.340 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:38:5.0 --> 0:38:5.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:5.640 --> 0:38:9.270 Liz Palmer And then the church changed in the 70s and the late in the 80s too. 0:38:9.280 --> 0:38:11.620 Liz Palmer So that was a whole other big issue then. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:21.460 Philippe Alain Paradis What did you see back then as the biggest form of injustice in Canadian society, like the things that you found the most unfair? 0:38:23.70 --> 0:38:23.480 Liz Palmer Hmm. 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:30.850 Liz Palmer In the at that time, probably women's rights. UM. 0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:39.370 Liz Palmer There wasn't much I worked one summer up north in Moosonee. 0:38:39.380 --> 0:38:55.490 Liz Palmer I worked at A and indigenous hospital at the time and that was the first time I really saw the differences between living, you know, as a white person living South and then going up to an area cause I worked the whole summer up there. 0:38:55.500 --> 0:38:56.330 Liz Palmer I would take. 0:38:56.660 --> 0:39:4.330 Liz Palmer I would take patients back up north to different we they fly them up north and the nurse would have to go with them. 0:39:4.340 --> 0:39:5.500 Liz Palmer I was going as the nurse. 0:39:6.570 --> 0:39:12.270 Liz Palmer That was the first time I really saw those types of injustice, and that was that was a huge deal at the time, I remember. 0:39:13.550 --> 0:39:16.70 Liz Palmer Umm but. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:25.660 Liz Palmer Probably I, you know, I wasn't terribly aware in those days of those things to be quite honest, it was. 0:39:25.390 --> 0:39:31.340 Philippe Alain Paradis But it was clear that something had to had to be done about it, and it's. 0:39:30.490 --> 0:39:32.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, the women's rights were a big deal. 0:39:36.670 --> 0:39:43.510 Liz Palmer Medical medical advances that were available to some people and not to others available in some areas but not in others. 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:55.180 Liz Palmer There were, you know, when I was up north, there were women used to come quote unquote S to musani to Moose factory to have their babies. 0:39:55.190 --> 0:40:2.390 Liz Palmer And there were a lot of babies born with very awful birth defects that most of them didn't live. 0:40:4.450 --> 0:40:10.820 Liz Palmer So there was a lot of that that we saw and they're just because they lived in small places like small villages and stuff up north. 0:40:10.870 --> 0:40:11.910 Liz Palmer He had to come that far. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:25.250 Liz Palmer So, but you know, it was it was just a very different life, and that was the first exposure I got to, you know, women that would have 10 or 12 children and and with the child didn't live, they were OK with that because the kid was. 0:40:32.220 --> 0:40:32.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:25.260 --> 0:40:36.660 Liz Palmer So I mean, there was no way the child could live because they were so badly are they had so many health issues that they wouldn't live outside of an incubator, right. 0:40:37.410 --> 0:40:37.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:40:37.260 --> 0:40:40.890 Liz Palmer So those those children died within a few days, and the mother was sad. 0:40:40.900 --> 0:40:44.870 Liz Palmer But it was an acceptance which you would never get here. 0:40:44.940 --> 0:40:45.640 Liz Palmer Never get here. 0:40:45.380 --> 0:40:47.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that sounds quite jarring to witness. 0:40:48.170 --> 0:40:50.70 Liz Palmer Umm I was and and then. 0:40:47.700 --> 0:40:52.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And that's yeah, like to see that that that was like normal sort of there was. 0:40:52.590 --> 0:40:53.280 Liz Palmer Exactly. 0:40:53.490 --> 0:40:55.880 Liz Palmer It was, yes, more normalized than it should have been. 0:40:56.750 --> 0:40:56.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:1.590 Liz Palmer But then the children were born with birth defects that you wouldn't see here because of the inbreeding. 0:41:1.600 --> 0:41:2.250 Liz Palmer That a lot of it. 0:41:2.300 --> 0:41:4.70 Liz Palmer That's how it was explained to me at the time. 0:41:5.170 --> 0:41:10.680 Liz Palmer But I think now it was also things like mercury in the water pesticide use. 0:41:10.720 --> 0:41:12.300 Liz Palmer There's probably all that kind of stuff. 0:41:12.310 --> 0:41:14.800 Liz Palmer That was all in there, but we didn't know about it in those times. 0:41:15.460 --> 0:41:15.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:41:15.700 --> 0:41:23.540 Philippe Alain Paradis So you saw some pretty pretty like bad issues on the reservations that that's that that's quite a good example of injustice. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That's that's tragic. 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:30.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:41:24.790 --> 0:41:36.820 Liz Palmer Well, that was the reserves were very also, you know you go up there, you land, there's a nursing station and the house where the doctor lived or the nurse lived at the social worker and the teachers lived. 0:41:36.830 --> 0:41:41.180 Liz Palmer And then then there's where the actual people in the village live. 0:41:42.660 --> 0:41:42.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:41:41.270 --> 0:41:50.70 Liz Palmer Very different and my husband will actually was a was a teacher for, I think two years in a northern community as well on the reserve. 0:41:50.80 --> 0:41:53.680 Liz Palmer And you know, his stories were very similar to that as well. 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:1.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:42:2.0 --> 0:42:4.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing any of the any of these issues at all. 0:42:5.900 --> 0:42:8.830 Liz Palmer Ohh, probably not, but honestly I wasn't. 0:42:8.840 --> 0:42:11.200 Liz Palmer I really wasn't into politics at that point. 0:42:11.180 --> 0:42:11.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:42:11.990 --> 0:42:18.350 Liz Palmer I was my family was liberal and I used to work at different. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:19.30 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:19.100 --> 0:42:19.420 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:21.660 --> 0:42:25.700 Liz Palmer Work at, you know, different times when they were elections and stuff. 0:42:26.620 --> 0:42:27.590 Liz Palmer I was part of that. 0:42:27.740 --> 0:42:35.160 Liz Palmer I used to go to meetings, political meetings and stuff like that, but it was never John Turner was who I worked for. 0:42:35.170 --> 0:42:41.280 Liz Palmer I think when one year, but he lost out to Pierre Trudeau senior, so that was different. 0:42:41.690 --> 0:42:44.30 Liz Palmer But anyway, so it was the again. 0:42:46.0 --> 0:42:47.670 Liz Palmer Different times, you know. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:48.550 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:42:48.620 --> 0:42:52.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there like an assumption that, like the government wasn't doing things correctly back then? 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:53.930 Liz Palmer Oh, no. 0:42:52.860 --> 0:42:54.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing these things, no. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.280 Philippe Alain Paradis OK. 0:42:53.940 --> 0:42:58.680 Liz Palmer No, no, no, no government could do no wrong in those days in our household anyway. 0:43:2.550 --> 0:43:20.280 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, so for the this next section, cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you agree with that statement? 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:25.470 Liz Palmer Ohh, absolutely absolutely yes. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.420 Liz Palmer Yes, with the pill you could do whatever you want and you didn't have to worry about getting pregnant, right? 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:33.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis That must have been a huge change. 0:43:37.10 --> 0:43:38.870 Liz Palmer Yes and no. 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:39.120 Philippe Alain Paradis Compared to. 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.270 Liz Palmer I mean it compared to before, probably, yeah. 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.70 Liz Palmer But the pill had always been available. 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:50.120 Liz Palmer I mean, even though I went to a Catholic girls school, we all knew about the pill. 0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:51.400 Liz Palmer My mother was very good about. 0:43:53.940 --> 0:43:58.150 Liz Palmer Uh, you know, teaching us the sex education schools didn't do it in those days. 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:5.310 Liz Palmer Like, I mean, your parents did it, but my parents were very open about things and they were very good about that. 0:44:5.320 --> 0:44:9.190 Liz Palmer So we we knew about those things, but of course we were allowed to take it right. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:9.200 --> 0:44:13.460 Liz Palmer And of course, there was no sex before marriage and all that other kind of stuff. 0:44:13.470 --> 0:44:15.120 Liz Palmer But that all changed. 0:44:17.130 --> 0:44:20.790 Philippe Alain Paradis And what did dating look like at Yowa during the 1970s? 0:44:22.890 --> 0:44:23.820 Liz Palmer But how do you mean? 0:44:23.830 --> 0:44:26.400 Liz Palmer Just ohh guys got. 0:44:23.500 --> 0:44:27.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, I'm just like, yeah, very generally speaking. 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:29.320 Liz Palmer Oh, just guys. 0:44:29.330 --> 0:44:30.110 Liz Palmer Ask girls out. 0:44:31.300 --> 0:44:31.980 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:44:33.790 --> 0:44:35.320 Liz Palmer You would go for coffee. 0:44:35.330 --> 0:44:37.700 Liz Palmer There were the coffee go to movies. 0:44:43.270 --> 0:44:43.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:39.350 --> 0:44:44.660 Liz Palmer Nobody had any money, so nobody really went out to dinner unless you went out with someone who was older. 0:44:45.110 --> 0:44:49.220 Liz Palmer So you would go to concerts, you'd go to movies, you'd go to parties together. 0:44:49.670 --> 0:44:50.720 Liz Palmer You know, that kind of thing? 0:44:51.890 --> 0:44:52.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Just. 0:44:50.810 --> 0:44:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, pretty normal stuff, yeah. 0:44:53.990 --> 0:44:54.300 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:54.310 --> 0:44:54.830 Philippe Alain Paradis That reminds me. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what you were saying earlier? 0:44:58.300 --> 0:44:59.180 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah. 0:44:55.980 --> 0:44:59.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you do a lot of really casual things and just like normal. 0:45:0.980 --> 0:45:1.220 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:3.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Hang out and yeah, and then your parents had their views on it. 0:45:5.170 --> 0:45:5.740 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:45:4.640 --> 0:45:6.590 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:45:5.790 --> 0:45:6.840 Liz Palmer What is this father do? 0:45:6.850 --> 0:45:7.860 Liz Palmer And where does he go to church? 0:45:7.960 --> 0:45:9.240 Liz Palmer I've no clue. 0:45:8.870 --> 0:45:9.920 Philippe Alain Paradis I haven't even met him. 0:45:9.250 --> 0:45:10.20 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:45:9.970 --> 0:45:10.620 Philippe Alain Paradis I don't know his name. 0:45:10.230 --> 0:45:13.870 Liz Palmer I will he be live in Montreal? 0:45:14.20 --> 0:45:15.850 Liz Palmer Because a lot of people came to Ottawa. 0:45:15.860 --> 0:45:17.950 Liz Palmer You from a lot of different places, right? 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:18.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:31.120 Liz Palmer So because they had programs there that didn't have any other places, so there were lots of and and the other thing too is that it was thought that was the easy to get into Ottawa because they always were looking for students. 0:45:32.20 --> 0:45:32.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:45:32.90 --> 0:45:37.310 Liz Palmer But then of course, my sister went to Saint Paths, which was a separate college. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.300 Liz Palmer But then became part of Carlton. 0:45:40.90 --> 0:45:47.90 Liz Palmer But then, of course, he always disparage Carlton because they were just the, you know, anybody could get into Carlton. 0:45:49.540 --> 0:45:50.500 Liz Palmer So yes. 0:45:50.190 --> 0:45:50.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:45:50.690 --> 0:45:59.180 Philippe Alain Paradis And was it ever look down on, like just dating casually, like amongst just just the younger people, just the uottawa? 0:45:59.710 --> 0:46:1.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Or was it just totally normal? 0:46:1.900 --> 0:46:4.30 Liz Palmer Ohh it's not you mean what do you mean dating? 0:46:7.880 --> 0:46:8.120 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:46:4.630 --> 0:46:8.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, yeah, like some parents might not approve of, like their kids going around and dating it. 0:46:8.480 --> 0:46:8.860 Philippe Alain Paradis You Ottawa. 0:46:8.870 --> 0:46:10.320 Philippe Alain Paradis But amongst students, was it. 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:11.390 Liz Palmer Oh, it's not. 0:46:10.330 --> 0:46:12.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it frowned upon at all? No. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:12.930 Liz Palmer No, no, not at all. 0:46:12.940 --> 0:46:13.680 Liz Palmer Day dating was. 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:16.360 Liz Palmer Well, that's how you got to meet people, right? 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 0:46:18.170 --> 0:46:19.490 Philippe Alain Paradis Like just relationships and stuff. 0:46:19.500 --> 0:46:21.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That was just it was just normal. 0:46:21.720 --> 0:46:22.450 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:46:29.550 --> 0:46:29.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:46:22.460 --> 0:46:31.760 Liz Palmer I mean, I think my sister in law put it when you went to university to to earn your Mrs right and your misses like to find your husband, right? 0:46:31.770 --> 0:46:32.300 Liz Palmer Your Mrs? 0:46:32.270 --> 0:46:33.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. Yeah. 0:46:41.380 --> 0:46:41.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:44.670 Liz Palmer Well, that's, I guess that was kind of what it was like, but I mean, no, everybody just dated and and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't, you know. 0:46:47.20 --> 0:46:49.610 Philippe Alain Paradis How did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:46:49.620 --> 0:46:50.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there any like? 0:46:50.820 --> 0:46:56.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Did they ever really like challenge those notions or discuss it or yeah. 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:4.850 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, I think a lot of younger women because of the pill and because of the changing morays of the time. 0:47:4.860 --> 0:47:12.950 Liz Palmer You could you could have a relationship with someone you could move in, but you didn't have to get married, and that was a huge deal for a lot of girls. 0:47:13.20 --> 0:47:15.880 Liz Palmer And a lot of women guys, of course, were happy with that. 0:47:18.350 --> 0:47:18.530 Liz Palmer But. 0:47:21.460 --> 0:47:28.630 Liz Palmer I think in the end they're probably more after we graduated that happened, I would find. 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:33.580 Liz Palmer But because when we were at school, nobody, as I said, nobody had any money like so. 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:37.150 Liz Palmer Certainly my friends in my class, most people didn't have a lot of money. 0:47:37.460 --> 0:47:45.150 Liz Palmer So, you know, we were living at home or we were, you know, living on campus or you were living in an apartment with two or three other people. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Liz Palmer So you were scrimping and saving, so it was. 0:47:50.700 --> 0:47:51.990 Liz Palmer It was kind of different. 0:47:54.660 --> 0:48:2.310 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess the the fact that you didn't have to get married anymore was the that that was a huge deal. 0:48:3.70 --> 0:48:3.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:2.960 --> 0:48:5.680 Liz Palmer That was a huge deal at the time and I think that made a difference. 0:48:6.600 --> 0:48:9.880 Liz Palmer Umm, because you didn't really need to. 0:48:12.820 --> 0:48:20.220 Liz Palmer Uh, you didn't really need to worry about getting married, cause all of a sudden you didn't really need to get married. 0:48:21.550 --> 0:48:26.350 Liz Palmer But still, having kids without a partner, I always felt was very difficult cause. 0:48:28.390 --> 0:48:29.370 Liz Palmer Kids are a lot of work. 0:48:30.270 --> 0:48:30.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:33.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:32.490 --> 0:48:36.690 Liz Palmer I take a lot out of the you need two people to do that or or a village to raise a child, yes. 0:48:35.260 --> 0:48:38.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, for sure. Right. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:41.930 Philippe Alain Paradis So like just the notion of like, do you like having to get married and stuff? 0:48:41.940 --> 0:48:46.730 Philippe Alain Paradis It was looked at like more practically, if at times by younger people, yeah. 0:48:45.750 --> 0:48:47.170 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was it. 0:48:47.210 --> 0:48:49.660 Liz Palmer There was no notion of having to get married anymore. 0:48:49.470 --> 0:48:49.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:49.670 --> 0:48:50.280 Liz Palmer You got married. 0:48:50.290 --> 0:48:54.110 Liz Palmer If you wanted to, and if you wanted, if you wanted to, that was great. 0:48:56.370 --> 0:48:56.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.380 Liz Palmer But if you didn't want to, you didn't have to, which was fine too, yeah. 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:57.690 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:48:58.610 --> 0:48:59.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:59.670 --> 0:49:15.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And just before I move on to the last section, do you like, do you think that like just regarding all of these things and and just general attitudes, behavior and stuff on campus, do you think like movies and music and stuff influence like people's behavior a lot? 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like maybe like rock becoming popular a little later. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.870 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:49:18.810 --> 0:49:25.250 Philippe Alain Paradis And did you ever see like the impact of like media on people and their behavior on campus at all? 0:49:26.670 --> 0:49:27.580 Philippe Alain Paradis It's gonna make but. 0:49:33.390 --> 0:49:33.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:49:30.330 --> 0:49:34.120 Liz Palmer Yes, music in particular, music. 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:34.940 Liz Palmer Governed. 0:49:35.110 --> 0:49:35.320 Liz Palmer Who? 0:49:35.330 --> 0:49:37.400 Liz Palmer Your friends were where you went. 0:49:37.460 --> 0:49:44.370 Liz Palmer The concerts you went to, the books you read, the group she belonged to. Uh. 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.270 Liz Palmer Disco was part of it, but then I was far more at. 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.670 Liz Palmer At one point I was far more into umm. 0:49:58.620 --> 0:50:0.420 Liz Palmer It's sort of the coffee house scene. 0:50:1.90 --> 0:50:1.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:50:2.910 --> 0:50:10.620 Liz Palmer And all those, all that kind of sort of stuff, we were far more hip than the people that went to do disco. 0:50:12.470 --> 0:50:14.190 Liz Palmer We thought we were like, put it that way. 0:50:15.940 --> 0:50:17.190 Liz Palmer We were that we were smarter. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.910 Liz Palmer You know, we've always thought we were better than the rest, but I mean, we were just stupid. 0:50:21.300 --> 0:50:23.860 Liz Palmer But umm, it was. 0:50:25.540 --> 0:50:32.540 Liz Palmer I think it really led into how you lived, who, where you went, who your friends were. 0:50:40.670 --> 0:50:41.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Wow. 0:50:33.830 --> 0:50:42.910 Liz Palmer As I said, the books you read the the opinions you held and who and in the end who you ended up voting for too, it was, you know, so it it. 0:50:42.980 --> 0:50:43.330 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:50:43.340 --> 0:51:8.20 Liz Palmer Because you know, if it was, it's as I got older, I got more and more into the into the political stuff because you you always, you know, sort of became aware as time went on as of how who you voted for in the election would affect how much money was going to education or healthcare or you know the what was going into you know whatever was affecting the world at that time but umm. 0:51:10.90 --> 0:51:14.360 Liz Palmer Yeah, I think I think there was certainly a correlation in there for sure. 0:51:14.580 --> 0:51:20.480 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that that's interesting because you named basically every facet of like what makes someone and like an individual, right? 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:20.860 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:23.540 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:20.490 --> 0:51:28.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Like their opinions, they're the people they hung around with that then all of that, like music, had a pardon. Hmm. 0:51:25.750 --> 0:51:40.0 Liz Palmer And and movies were a big thing, too, because we got very snotty about about watching French films, and I'm I learned, I I I started to smoke when I was at university, cause everybody smoked and it ought to be you. 0:51:40.10 --> 0:51:40.490 Liz Palmer You smoke? 0:51:40.500 --> 0:51:42.180 Liz Palmer God was in Japan, right? 0:51:42.190 --> 0:51:43.220 Liz Palmer The French cigarettes. 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:44.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.960 Liz Palmer So anything French became very ohkura very. 0:51:51.220 --> 0:51:54.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right trends and stuff, but that could all that. Mm-hmm. 0:51:49.910 --> 0:51:55.420 Liz Palmer In very if you want trend trend, yes, trendy. 0:51:55.490 --> 0:51:59.320 Liz Palmer And if you wanted to be, quote unquote, one of the cool kids, this is what you did. 0:51:59.330 --> 0:52:1.860 Liz Palmer So you wore certain clothing you. 0:52:3.900 --> 0:52:6.810 Liz Palmer You went to certain places, you went to certain clubs, you. 0:52:7.670 --> 0:52:10.700 Liz Palmer Uh, you spoke French or you didn't? 0:52:10.710 --> 0:52:12.840 Liz Palmer Or or you pretended you did. 0:52:12.850 --> 0:52:18.640 Liz Palmer Or, you know, whatever it it did affect your it did affect your life at one point. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:19.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:19.250 --> 0:52:21.770 Liz Palmer So yeah, I would say definitely. 0:52:21.780 --> 0:52:26.670 Liz Palmer And and movies from the states, I mean, you had you had Deer Hunter you had. 0:52:28.350 --> 0:52:28.970 Liz Palmer Taxi. 0:52:33.820 --> 0:52:34.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:28.980 --> 0:52:37.40 Liz Palmer You had all those other movies that came in to being at like I Love films, so that was something that I really like to to to do. 0:52:37.490 --> 0:52:41.620 Liz Palmer But in a place like Ottawa, there weren't a lot of, you know. 0:52:43.430 --> 0:52:46.860 Liz Palmer Films that came out that that were anything. 0:52:46.930 --> 0:52:48.450 Liz Palmer The what was it the? 0:52:51.70 --> 0:52:57.210 Liz Palmer And I forget that the theater on Queen Street Bank and Queen forget. 0:52:57.220 --> 0:52:58.300 Liz Palmer I think it was called the realtor. 0:52:58.370 --> 0:52:59.210 Liz Palmer No, it wasn't that. 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:1.50 Liz Palmer Forget what it was called anyway. 0:53:1.660 --> 0:53:4.30 Liz Palmer They would have foreign films come in. 0:53:4.40 --> 0:53:8.760 Liz Palmer So you'd have foreign film festivals or you go to Montreal to see movies and stuff like that too. 0:53:9.920 --> 0:53:10.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.20 Philippe Alain Paradis So this final section is totally optional. 0:53:14.580 --> 0:53:21.590 Philippe Alain Paradis There's a disclaimer that comes with it because it it's a it's a very, very sensitive topic, so if I'll read this claimer and you just have to say yes or no. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.300 Philippe Alain Paradis And if you say no, I won't ask any questions and that'll be it for the interview. 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:26.160 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:53:26.80 --> 0:53:32.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, OK, so this glimmer is the following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:53:32.580 --> 0:53:39.90 Philippe Alain Paradis We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:53:39.300 --> 0:53:43.470 Philippe Alain Paradis You may choose to not answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:53:45.170 --> 0:53:47.650 Liz Palmer I'm fine with that. Yep. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:53.250 Philippe Alain Paradis OK, so many universities today have been, uh, forced to police sexual harassment. 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.640 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:54:1.450 --> 0:54:2.530 Liz Palmer I don't think they did anything. 0:54:4.980 --> 0:54:5.500 Liz Palmer Why would they? 0:54:6.650 --> 0:54:8.960 Philippe Alain Paradis Did did you see it as much of an issue back then? 0:54:8.970 --> 0:54:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, were there rumors circulating or like, people getting caught? 0:54:12.500 --> 0:54:12.850 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:54:12.730 --> 0:54:13.610 Liz Palmer No, no. 0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:17.860 Philippe Alain Paradis So it must have been like pretty like hush hush if yeah. 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 Liz Palmer If it happened, we didn't hear about it. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm wow. 0:54:20.500 --> 0:54:21.780 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way, yeah. 0:54:21.80 --> 0:54:26.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, because I like I have seen stats and so I was like, I have seen people seen stats and stuff and it seems that it was it was quite it. 0:54:26.900 --> 0:54:29.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It turns out like now we know that it was quite prevalent. 0:54:29.490 --> 0:54:33.310 Philippe Alain Paradis So it's interesting to hear that it was kept like you know. 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:36.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:38.270 Liz Palmer I think you have to look at the times from the perspective of the times. 0:54:39.770 --> 0:54:43.520 Liz Palmer Nowadays, women get all upset because the guy whistles at them on the street. 0:54:44.10 --> 0:54:44.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:45.340 --> 0:54:46.650 Liz Palmer No big deal in my day. 0:54:47.240 --> 0:54:47.820 Liz Palmer So what? 0:54:48.430 --> 0:54:49.70 Philippe Alain Paradis If you. 0:54:48.260 --> 0:54:50.510 Liz Palmer So good, I appreciate what you looked like. 0:54:50.990 --> 0:54:51.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:50.580 --> 0:54:54.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays someone will go hearing off to the police saying, Oh my God, he whistled at me. 0:54:56.530 --> 0:54:56.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:54:56.310 --> 0:54:58.690 Liz Palmer That's harassment in some women's. 0:55:0.560 --> 0:55:4.490 Liz Palmer You know and and fair enough if they feel harassed and that then that's it. 0:55:4.840 --> 0:55:6.440 Liz Palmer But in our day, that was not a deal. 0:55:7.220 --> 0:55:9.790 Philippe Alain Paradis If you applied, I'll put A twist on the question. 0:55:9.990 --> 0:55:10.210 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:55:16.90 --> 0:55:18.100 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, they're probably was there. 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.80 Liz Palmer It was there. 0:55:9.960 --> 0:55:19.590 Philippe Alain Paradis If you apply just just for fun, if you applied today's standards of sexual harassment, what would it would have been bad, yeah. 0:55:22.300 --> 0:55:22.570 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:55:19.150 --> 0:55:28.20 Liz Palmer I would I remember being on the bus and a man sitting really close to me like and pushing me like coming right close to me. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.130 Liz Palmer That's harassment as far as I'm concerned. 0:55:30.590 --> 0:55:34.900 Liz Palmer I got up, stepped on his foot, got off the bus. 0:55:36.390 --> 0:55:38.730 Liz Palmer So never reported it. 0:55:39.850 --> 0:55:41.700 Liz Palmer That happened all the time. 0:55:42.370 --> 0:55:42.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:55:41.950 --> 0:55:43.390 Liz Palmer If you were young woman, yeah. 0:55:44.940 --> 0:55:45.210 Liz Palmer I'm. 0:55:45.220 --> 0:55:46.770 Liz Palmer I'm not gonna say all the time, but it happened. 0:55:47.190 --> 0:55:47.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:48.330 Liz Palmer It happened a lot. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.980 Liz Palmer There were, but As for me, I was never. 0:55:56.170 --> 0:56:0.550 Liz Palmer I was never a victim of that type of harassment. 0:56:0.560 --> 0:56:1.430 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:56:1.440 --> 0:56:5.470 Liz Palmer Like anything that that these days, women would complain about. 0:56:5.480 --> 0:56:9.920 Liz Palmer I mean, yeah, some guy would punch your pinch your bottom or something. 0:56:12.420 --> 0:56:13.370 Liz Palmer So no big deal. 0:56:14.170 --> 0:56:14.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:13.780 --> 0:56:18.830 Liz Palmer I mean, that's just, that's just what happened and that's how it was thought of in those days. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:19.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays it's not. 0:56:19.980 --> 0:56:20.730 Liz Palmer It's different. 0:56:20.860 --> 0:56:21.180 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:27.870 Liz Palmer My daughter, would you know, she she would probably, Umm, report somebody who did that. 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.350 Liz Palmer But in my day it was part of the culture. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.950 Liz Palmer If you can put it that way, I mean, I'm not saying it's right. 0:56:32.300 --> 0:56:34.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm it, yeah. 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:36.880 Liz Palmer I'm just saying that that's that's the way it was. 0:56:36.890 --> 0:56:41.560 Liz Palmer That's that's what guys did and I grew up in working class neighborhoods. 0:56:42.770 --> 0:56:44.250 Philippe Alain Paradis There's normalized totally. 0:56:41.570 --> 0:56:45.670 Liz Palmer So there was it was exactly. 0:56:47.570 --> 0:56:47.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:45.740 --> 0:56:48.500 Liz Palmer That's a very good way to put it was normalized, so yeah. 0:56:47.950 --> 0:56:50.200 Philippe Alain Paradis So it wasn't even viewed as a problem that needed fixing. 0:56:50.210 --> 0:56:52.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just how? Wow. 0:56:52.30 --> 0:56:54.300 Liz Palmer It's just the way some men are stupid. 0:56:54.770 --> 0:56:55.660 Liz Palmer That's the way they are. 0:56:55.830 --> 0:56:56.440 Liz Palmer You didn't. 0:56:56.450 --> 0:57:2.600 Liz Palmer You didn't have anything to do with those guys, but you know my my mom used to make it very clear. 0:57:2.610 --> 0:57:3.440 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:3.570 --> 0:57:4.290 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:5.350 --> 0:57:5.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:57:6.60 --> 0:57:6.300 Liz Palmer OK. 0:57:5.930 --> 0:57:11.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And our yeah, our generation is interested in a like in a free love movement. 0:57:11.670 --> 0:57:17.380 Philippe Alain Paradis What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? 0:57:17.390 --> 0:57:21.640 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it viewed negatively accepted or like literally encouraged? 0:57:21.650 --> 0:57:23.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Or like amongst the. 0:57:22.730 --> 0:57:23.700 Liz Palmer Was accepted. 0:57:24.50 --> 0:57:24.940 Liz Palmer It was accepted. 0:57:24.950 --> 0:57:29.0 Liz Palmer I meet most of the girls in in my class had boyfriends and. 0:57:31.230 --> 0:57:31.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:31.170 --> 0:57:32.480 Liz Palmer They all went to bed together. 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:33.40 Liz Palmer I mean, it was. 0:57:34.550 --> 0:57:34.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:33.50 --> 0:57:35.260 Liz Palmer No, it was accepted. 0:57:35.270 --> 0:57:35.600 Liz Palmer It was. 0:57:35.610 --> 0:57:38.680 Liz Palmer It was your choice if you wanted to, umm. 0:57:42.890 --> 0:57:43.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:39.330 --> 0:57:50.660 Liz Palmer As it as of whether they were pressured, I don't know what was never brought up as as an issue like I never knew anybody who was upset by the fact that some guy had pressured. 0:57:50.710 --> 0:57:52.840 Liz Palmer I mean, there were guys that were stupid enough to. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:53.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:54.830 --> 0:57:56.720 Liz Palmer Think that you know you didn't talk to each other. 0:57:56.730 --> 0:57:57.420 Liz Palmer There was one guy. 0:57:58.810 --> 0:58:1.370 Liz Palmer He was in law and he was a football player. 0:58:2.410 --> 0:58:7.520 Liz Palmer He was going out with a girl in my class and he called me up and asked me out on a date and I said ohh great and I. 0:58:7.530 --> 0:58:9.420 Liz Palmer But aren't you going out with so and so's? 0:58:9.430 --> 0:58:11.340 Liz Palmer Ohh no, no, no, no, that's all over. 0:58:12.870 --> 0:58:12.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:11.690 --> 0:58:18.330 Liz Palmer So I find out later because no one's talking to me in my class, that she found out that he was going out. 0:58:18.340 --> 0:58:22.810 Liz Palmer He went out with me and I said, well, he told me that you two would split up. 0:58:22.890 --> 0:58:23.550 Liz Palmer We haven't. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:24.710 Liz Palmer I didn't know that. 0:58:25.180 --> 0:58:28.590 Liz Palmer Well, that was the end of that from both sides. 0:58:29.300 --> 0:58:38.250 Liz Palmer But I mean so there was always that kind of stuff that was going on, but he was a I mean we only ever got to the point of going out for a meal or something. 0:58:38.260 --> 0:58:42.270 Liz Palmer And then I'm sure he he wanted to take a further, but there was no. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.370 Liz Palmer But then my friend found out. 0:58:46.940 --> 0:58:47.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:45.380 --> 0:58:48.750 Liz Palmer And then, of course, then the whole class just turned on him, and that was that. 0:58:48.820 --> 0:58:49.590 Liz Palmer But I mean there. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.860 Liz Palmer So that kind of thing happened. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.20 Liz Palmer But that's just the kind of thing that happened to me. 0:58:59.100 --> 0:59:0.240 Philippe Alain Paradis That was your experience. 0:59:0.250 --> 0:59:0.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:54.30 --> 0:59:1.50 Liz Palmer There might have been other things that happened to other women, but I don't know of any of them. Yeah. 0:59:1.70 --> 0:59:8.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And and just casual relationships like that, like they there was, there wasn't much judgment going around regarding that type of thing. 0:59:8.310 --> 0:59:9.40 Liz Palmer Oh no mate. 0:59:8.440 --> 0:59:13.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Like if a woman went with a lot of guys like it wasn't as or, you know, not not to your knowledge. 0:59:13.130 --> 0:59:15.91 Liz Palmer Well, I have to say I i.e. 0:59:15.870 --> 0:59:20.380 Liz Palmer My sister was going out with somebody and their first boyfriend. 0:59:20.390 --> 0:59:21.660 Liz Palmer She's still married to him. 0:59:21.750 --> 0:59:22.890 Liz Palmer 50 some odd years later. 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:30.160 Liz Palmer And he used to say to me, well, you know, you should get a boyfriend. 0:59:30.170 --> 0:59:31.860 Liz Palmer And I said, well, why would I want a boyfriend? 0:59:31.870 --> 0:59:33.340 Liz Palmer I'm meeting all these nice men. 0:59:34.310 --> 0:59:36.970 Liz Palmer We're going out to concerts and I mean nothing ever happened. 0:59:37.810 --> 0:59:39.660 Liz Palmer Uh, but I just didn't find. 0:59:43.830 --> 0:59:44.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:59:39.670 --> 0:59:45.300 Liz Palmer You know, there was just nobody I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with at that point, and that was so, so. 0:59:45.310 --> 0:59:49.740 Liz Palmer But he would, you know, that was from his perspective is that you should have one guy and only go up with one guy. 0:59:49.750 --> 0:59:53.580 Liz Palmer Well, I didn't feel that necessity and I didn't hadn't met the right person. 0:59:53.590 --> 0:59:55.840 Liz Palmer So, so that was different so. 0:59:59.130 --> 1:0:3.300 Liz Palmer But most of the most of my good friends, we all dated lots of different people. 1:0:3.670 --> 1:0:5.860 Liz Palmer We didn't sleep with them, but we dated them. 1:0:6.390 --> 1:0:6.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:6.30 --> 1:0:8.440 Liz Palmer Some of them may have slept with them, but I, you know, I didn't. 1:0:9.300 --> 1:0:9.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:9.590 --> 1:0:10.820 Liz Palmer So that was just me. 1:0:10.870 --> 1:0:14.680 Liz Palmer But then the other thing is is I lived at home, so there was no. 1:0:14.810 --> 1:0:18.380 Liz Palmer That was another big, huge problem for a lot of guys, too. 1:0:19.220 --> 1:0:20.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:0:20.990 --> 1:0:25.770 Philippe Alain Paradis And I imagine what did members of your parents generation to worry about premarital sex a lot. 1:0:26.180 --> 1:0:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Ohh. 1:0:26.110 --> 1:0:27.980 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, they were terrified of it. 1:0:26.410 --> 1:0:28.900 Philippe Alain Paradis Like. Yeah. Yeah. 1:0:28.30 --> 1:0:29.360 Liz Palmer Absolutely terrified of it, yes. 1:0:31.30 --> 1:0:31.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 1:0:31.730 --> 1:0:35.720 Philippe Alain Paradis So like, it sounds like amongst the younger people, it just wasn't much of a thought. 1:0:40.920 --> 1:0:42.170 Liz Palmer Most of, yeah. 1:0:35.730 --> 1:0:42.860 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just normal and OK and but the older crowd that was it was like not there was tension there probably. Umm. 1:0:42.260 --> 1:0:47.290 Liz Palmer Most of our parents felt that it was, you know, premarital sex was just not cause. 1:0:47.360 --> 1:0:53.330 Liz Palmer Most of my friends were Catholic or came from religious or Protestant Jewish families. 1:0:53.750 --> 1:0:56.420 Liz Palmer So you didn't even talk about premarital sex. 1:0:56.430 --> 1:1:5.560 Liz Palmer But but in our generation like that, I mean, I know there were girls that that slept around, but it was no big deal. 1:1:5.570 --> 1:1:6.780 Liz Palmer Like, I mean it wasn't. 1:1:9.330 --> 1:1:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 1:1:7.470 --> 1:1:10.460 Liz Palmer We didn't look down on them or think any less of them. 1:1:10.470 --> 1:1:11.520 Liz Palmer I mean, that was their choice. 1:1:12.900 --> 1:1:13.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 1:1:12.550 --> 1:1:18.440 Liz Palmer But that was also part of the feminist movement at the time, because that was your choice to sleep with whomever you wanted. 1:1:19.550 --> 1:1:20.410 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:1:20.360 --> 1:1:20.520 Liz Palmer Yeah. 1:1:20.420 --> 1:1:22.820 Philippe Alain Paradis So yeah, alright, I've done. 1:1:22.830 --> 1:1:24.110 Philippe Alain Paradis That's every question. 1:1:24.120 --> 1:1:25.660 Philippe Alain Paradis I'll I'll stop the recording real quick. 1:1:26.160 --> 1:1:26.360 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. Transcription Translation 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Pour la première question, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation autour de l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa a une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Donc la première question serait qu'il y avait moins d'électronique au Canada dans les années 70. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Pas du tout. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Alors, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 70 ? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Eh bien, nous allions au pub après l'école. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer Je suis sûre que c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, mais il y avait... 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer On allait voir mon père, on riait. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer Nous allions à la bibliothèque tous les soirs et après la fermeture de la bibliothèque, parce que j'étudiais les soins infirmiers. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer Nous allions donc à la bibliothèque médicale, puis à l'Albion, qui n'existe plus, je crois. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer Il n'existe plus et nous y allions probablement presque tous les soirs. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer Il y avait des danses. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer Nous avons dirigé l'école d'infirmières. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Palmer, Elizabeth Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about life on campus in the University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including social life, and people's views during that time. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, 1:01:37 Language A language of the resource English 1970s Abortion Academics Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Disrcimination Generational Differences Marriage Nursing October Crisis Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam