1 10 11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1950 Birthplace ParrySound, ON, CA Death Date None Schools Attended University Western, London, 1968-1971 Degree BA Career education Occupation teacher, technical writer. Ethnicity English Religious Culture Protestant Christian Devotional Life chose not to respond Gender Identity chose not to respond Sexual Orientation chose not to respond Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Yuanming Tian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeannette Logan Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (via Microsoft team) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Transcription Translation 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:0.400 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:1.540 --> 0:0:7.220 Yuanming Tian I want the interval question section one per。 0:0:8.430 --> 0:0:10.310 Yuanming Tian um，section one，um。，um。 0:0:17.500 --> 0:0:20.260 Yuanming Tian Impact，impact popular。 0:0:22.60 --> 0:0:23.100 Yuanming Tian Popular。 0:0:25.570 --> 0:0:26.210 Yuanming Tian Culture。 0:0:28.110 --> 0:0:30.710 Yuanming Tian In impact impact，the popular culture。 0:0:35.660 --> 0:0:36.140 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:0:32.400 --> 0:0:37.800 Jeannette Logan If are you saying impact IMPACT impact？ 0:0:37.480 --> 0:0:38.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah impact。 0:0:39.340 --> 0:0:40.20 Jeannette Logan Of popular culture。 0:0:40.410 --> 0:0:40.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:0:42.960 --> 0:0:46.280 Yuanming Tian um，let me see。 0:0:48.60 --> 0:0:48.180 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:0:49.910 --> 0:0:51.110 Yuanming Tian There were these。 0:0:57.190 --> 0:1:8.70 Yuanming Tian OK，，what，what？Where the most popular，uh，huh？Hang out sport spores on sports on of campus。 0:1:9.910 --> 0:1:11.670 Jeannette Logan What were the most popular？ 0:1:15.790 --> 0:1:18.310 Yuanming Tian Hung hung uh hung out。 0:1:18.710 --> 0:1:19.790 Jeannette Logan Hey Hangouts。 0:1:24.900 --> 0:1:25.100 Jeannette Logan But。 0:1:19.910 --> 0:1:27.630 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah，yeah。Yeah。How to spots spots on？Yeah，an of a campus。 0:1:30.380 --> 0:1:30.820 Yuanming Tian 二一。 0:1:28.830 --> 0:1:34.870 Jeannette Logan Ohh，my goodness，what so when when I was at university，what were the popular Hangouts？ 0:1:35.440 --> 0:1:41.920 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，uh，University of Ottawa in，uh，one。 0:1:43.420 --> 0:1:43.580 Yuanming Tian What？ 0:1:44.900 --> 0:1:48.860 Yuanming Tian Nineteen seventies nineteen seven nineteen seventies。 0:1:50.890 --> 0:1:54.170 Jeannette Logan In the nineteen seventies，popular Hangouts where？ 0:1:55.590 --> 0:1:56.470 Jeannette Logan For bars。 0:1:57.720 --> 0:1:58.480 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah。 0:2:0.210 --> 0:2:2.570 Jeannette Logan Usually bars that had music。 0:2:5.360 --> 0:2:13.680 Jeannette Logan Musicians playing in in the in the bars，and sometimes it was very loud and it was hard to talk。 0:2:16.220 --> 0:2:21.20 Yuanming Tian OK，you can see anything because we have a lot of time。 0:2:25.170 --> 0:2:25.450 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:2:28.630 --> 0:2:29.70 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:2:30.80 --> 0:2:47.520 Jeannette Logan But I also，I also was involved with um activities where I would meet other people such as I sang and acquire with other people，and I did some。 0:2:47.940 --> 0:2:49.140 Jeannette Logan With other people。 0:2:51.820 --> 0:2:52.500 Jeannette Logan And。 0:2:55.30 --> 0:3:2.230 Jeannette Logan I like to go to a cultural events like such as concerts and。 0:3:3.750 --> 0:3:4.830 Jeannette Logan Art galleries。 0:3:6.0 --> 0:3:7.600 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:3:14.790 --> 0:3:15.430 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:18.210 --> 0:3:28.290 Yuanming Tian Next next question，did you attend any leave music events during you university years？ 0:3:29.380 --> 0:3:30.580 Jeannette Logan Did I attend what？ 0:3:33.230 --> 0:3:33.990 Yuanming Tian Music。 0:3:36.250 --> 0:3:38.130 Yuanming Tian Let me see music。 0:3:39.250 --> 0:3:42.610 Yuanming Tian Events，yeah，music events，music events。 0:3:43.580 --> 0:3:45.260 Jeannette Logan Musical events yes。 0:3:46.10 --> 0:3:46.370 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:3:46.220 --> 0:3:49.60 Jeannette Logan II attended lots of rock concerts。 0:3:50.480 --> 0:3:50.920 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:3:52.620 --> 0:3:54.140 Jeannette Logan Huge rock concerts with。 0:3:55.260 --> 0:4:1.20 Jeannette Logan But with hundreds of people sometimes outside if it was in the summer。 0:4:2.970 --> 0:4:3.530 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:4:4.900 --> 0:4:8.260 Jeannette Logan I attended a concert for Three Dog Night。I remember that。 0:4:10.500 --> 0:4:13.740 Jeannette Logan Also folk folk music，I like folk music as well。 0:4:14.980 --> 0:4:18.660 Jeannette Logan Gordon Lightfoot I'm pretty sure was even singing that then。 0:4:21.440 --> 0:4:22.840 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:4:24.320 --> 0:4:36.880 Yuanming Tian um，I sent you this this interval question in mailbox in，communicate in，communicate box。You can see this question because I because I。 0:4:37.840 --> 0:4:50.440 Yuanming Tian um。You can see communicate。Uh，you can you can see communicateumcommunicate box because II send you this interval question word。 0:4:53.600 --> 0:4:58.240 Jeannette Logan Sorry，I didn't。I didn't get that you were saying something about communication。 0:5:1.440 --> 0:5:3.320 Yuanming Tian Communication boxum。 0:5:5.990 --> 0:5:6.830 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:5:8.710 --> 0:5:8.830 Yuanming Tian um。 0:5:9.960 --> 0:5:10.80 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:5:11.50 --> 0:5:13.490 Yuanming Tian Or chat chat you can see chat。 0:5:14.70 --> 0:5:15.270 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I had to type。 0:5:15.780 --> 0:5:16.700 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:5:17.180 --> 0:5:21.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh，well，to be honest，I didn't do much typing。 0:5:23.140 --> 0:5:25.340 Jeannette Logan Everything。What was happening back then？ 0:5:27.850 --> 0:5:32.890 Jeannette Logan Because，uh，if things needed to be typed，I had a secretary who typed typed。 0:5:36.750 --> 0:5:38.310 Jeannette Logan Well，I learned I learned，um。 0:5:39.610 --> 0:5:45.170 Jeannette Logan I learned how to type，you're perfectly right。I wasn't a good typist，but I did learn how to type。 0:5:47.950 --> 0:5:48.870 Jeannette Logan What did they call it？ 0:5:50.900 --> 0:6:10.100 Jeannette Logan Like with with just with two two fingers not with all my fingers and I had to learn that when I got the job as a technical writer，that's right，OK？So when I became a technical writer，I had to learn how to type things and we had。 0:6:11.890 --> 0:6:15.690 Jeannette Logan So we had a central computer。I remember that。 0:6:16.950 --> 0:6:20.630 Jeannette Logan And we you，could you？ 0:6:21.10 --> 0:6:26.450 Jeannette Logan You could correct all your mistakes。I remember you learn how to correct your mistakes anyway。 0:6:29.290 --> 0:6:47.250 Jeannette Logan But to be honest，I think I used to write out my texts in longhand first and my and the secretary would type it in for the first time and then I would edit it afterwards。That's what that was。What happened at the beginning？We didn't have personal computers。 0:6:53.230 --> 0:6:53.590 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:6:48.150 --> 0:6:55.270 Jeannette Logan I didn't have a personal computer for quite some time。I don't think，certainly not in the nineteen seventies。 0:6:56.240 --> 0:7:16.240 Yuanming Tian OKumII send you a document in chat that's，that's，I mean，because I I'm afraid I will cause you to have a problem understanding，so I send I send this document in team team uh team uh in team chat。 0:7:20.480 --> 0:7:22.80 Jeannette Logan You want to send me a document？ 0:7:22.610 --> 0:7:27.210 Yuanming Tian Yeah，yeah，I have sent you document in team chat，you can see。 0:7:28.260 --> 0:7:28.740 Jeannette Logan Just a minute。 0:7:29.40 --> 0:7:30.0 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah。 0:7:32.890 --> 0:7:48.530 Yuanming Tian In chat document this is all interval question because I am afraid I will cause you have a problem to understand，so I send you this document that that's，I mean。 0:8:9.550 --> 0:8:10.390 Yuanming Tian Team chat。 0:8:10.220 --> 0:8:13.180 Jeannette Logan I'm I'm looking on my phone to see if I see any。 0:8:15.730 --> 0:8:18.690 Jeannette Logan You，you set you say you sent me some documents。 0:8:19.280 --> 0:8:21.440 Yuanming Tian um。 0:8:24.320 --> 0:8:25.800 Yuanming Tian You，you，you can see it。 0:8:35.710 --> 0:8:37.110 Yuanming Tian I send you again。 0:8:38.680 --> 0:8:38.920 Jeannette Logan Okay。 0:8:38.410 --> 0:8:42.90 Yuanming Tian I send you OKOKOKOKOK。 0:8:40.750 --> 0:8:43.470 Jeannette Logan Ohh，OK，but I thought something you sent me。 0:8:44.640 --> 0:8:44.880 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:8:47.860 --> 0:8:48.540 Jeannette Logan Then maybe stopping。 0:8:49.780 --> 0:8:50.660 Jeannette Logan No，that's not bad。 0:8:52.710 --> 0:8:53.110 Jeannette Logan Yeah。 0:8:54.450 --> 0:8:55.690 Jeannette Logan Confidentiality。 0:8:59.180 --> 0:9:0.620 Jeannette Logan Conversation participants。 0:9:8.660 --> 0:9:8.900 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:9:11.480 --> 0:9:12.840 Yuanming Tian Do you see it？ 0:9:14.480 --> 0:9:17.640 Jeannette Logan I was starting to think maybe there was some。 0:9:19.740 --> 0:9:20.260 Jeannette Logan Thank you for me。 0:9:34.110 --> 0:9:35.230 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything。 0:9:44.860 --> 0:9:46.60 Jeannette Logan I haven't found anything here。 0:9:50.440 --> 0:9:57.800 Yuanming Tian I sent you document inumin team in team chat。 0:9:58.660 --> 0:10:0.60 Yuanming Tian um。Can you see it？ 0:10:3.890 --> 0:10:5.330 Jeannette Logan Ohh，it says just。 0:10:7.50 --> 0:10:8.90 Jeannette Logan Why is it？No。 0:10:24.620 --> 0:10:25.220 Jeannette Logan Ohh dear。 0:10:38.110 --> 0:10:40.110 Yuanming Tian Chat box chat box。 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:46.50 Yuanming Tian Chat chat box in team。 0:10:49.560 --> 0:10:55.200 Yuanming Tian II send you document about interval question to understand。 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:3.680 Yuanming Tian I send this the document in chat box in chat box in team。 0:11:5.40 --> 0:11:7.800 Jeannette Logan Yeah，are you talking about question？ 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:11.120 Jeannette Logan You you。 0:11:7.410 --> 0:11:12.850 Yuanming Tian um，document。um，Adobe document about interval question。 0:11:13.530 --> 0:11:15.290 Jeannette Logan Did you just send it now？ 0:11:16.590 --> 0:11:17.70 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.200 Yuanming Tian No，no，just now I send you。 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.200 Jeannette Logan Did you send it by e-mail？ 0:11:26.100 --> 0:11:34.780 Yuanming Tian No no no um chat box chat box in uh chat box in in in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:38.610 Yuanming Tian You，you can。Yeah，you can see in team。 0:11:36.370 --> 0:11:39.610 Jeannette Logan You checked，you checked it out in in teams。 0:11:40.150 --> 0:11:41.390 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah。 0:11:42.650 --> 0:11:42.930 Jeannette Logan Enjoy。 0:11:42.620 --> 0:11:44.700 Yuanming Tian You can see chat box，um？ 0:11:51.180 --> 0:11:53.100 Yuanming Tian I can't e-mail to you。 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:54.760 Jeannette Logan OK。 0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:59.770 Yuanming Tian um，but you could，um，but you，um，decor decorally to。 0:12:1.510 --> 0:12:4.670 Yuanming Tian To see in bug in chat box in team。 0:12:13.230 --> 0:12:15.910 Jeannette Logan So you're going to send me an e-mail，is that what you said？ 0:12:17.630 --> 0:12:18.790 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I sent you。 0:12:21.310 --> 0:12:22.190 Yuanming Tian Are you see it？ 0:12:25.430 --> 0:12:28.550 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，uh，are you see it？ 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:32.110 Jeannette Logan So I don't see it yet。 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:38.700 Yuanming Tian II have send。 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.760 Yuanming Tian um，so I want，哎。So I want to continue my interval question。 0:12:59.60 --> 0:13:0.700 Yuanming Tian 偶太偶taiwa was a。 0:13:2.60 --> 0:13:3.500 Yuanming Tian Was be。 0:13:7.900 --> 0:13:8.820 Yuanming Tian Let me see。 0:13:14.230 --> 0:13:16.30 Yuanming Tian Whatever is the one？ 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.0 Yuanming Tian Bilingual or whatever is a bilingual school。How？ 0:13:30.890 --> 0:13:37.290 Yuanming Tian As because I want I afraid you don't understand，so I send you e-mail，can you see it？ 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.0 Jeannette Logan You're sending me an e-mail？ 0:13:40.330 --> 0:13:41.530 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:14:12.740 --> 0:14:12.940 Jeannette Logan Add it。 0:14:13.550 --> 0:14:14.830 Yuanming Tian 对okok okokok。 0:14:15.990 --> 0:14:21.790 Yuanming Tian This is all interval question，um，just now II ask two questions。 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:25.210 Yuanming Tian You can，yeah。 0:14:27.150 --> 0:14:27.350 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:14:24.620 --> 0:14:41.180 Jeannette Logan It says the main question is cultural historians have argued that television，Hollywood，popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture otta。 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:47.720 Jeannette Logan Bilingual institution，and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together。 0:14:48.990 --> 0:14:54.550 Jeannette Logan There was less electronics and Canadian society during the Seventies。How？ 0:14:54.850 --> 0:14:56.170 Jeannette Logan Pleasure time structured。 0:15:2.780 --> 0:15:3.180 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:14:58.110 --> 0:15:7.550 Jeannette Logan And what did students do for fun in the nineteen seventies？OK so II answered，the one about the hang up hangout spots。 0:15:9.880 --> 0:15:12.840 Yuanming Tian Yeah yeah，yeah，I know。 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960 Yuanming Tian You answer two questions。Yeah。 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:22.880 Jeannette Logan Yeah and live a music？Yes，yes，we had lots of live music，which was great。 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.920 Jeannette Logan Now you're saying that Ottawa was a bilingual institution。 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeannette Logan Back in the back in the Seventies，I mean，I studied。I studied French and high school。 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Jeannette Logan But it was only when did I start？ 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.880 Jeannette Logan Actually，I started studying French。 0:15:49.330 --> 0:15:54.810 Jeannette Logan At in the evening classes again in in about nineteen seventy five。 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Jeannette Logan And I。 0:16:0.560 --> 0:16:2.840 Jeannette Logan I took conversational French classes。 0:16:4.270 --> 0:16:8.630 Jeannette Logan And then in the early eighties，I。 0:16:10.500 --> 0:16:27.180 Jeannette Logan I joined a sailing group where we most of the members were francophone，so I started really improving my French by the nineteen eighties and now I am fully bilingual。 0:16:29.60 --> 0:16:30.940 Jeannette Logan I can read and write in in French。 0:16:31.930 --> 0:16:33.50 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:16:34.150 --> 0:16:34.310 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:37.960 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:16:39.70 --> 0:16:43.990 Jeannette Logan Did anglophones and francophones date each other during the nineteen seventies。 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:49.450 Jeannette Logan Probably not very much。 0:16:50.250 --> 0:16:50.570 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:16:50.410 --> 0:16:51.690 Jeannette Logan I didn't have any。 0:16:53.30 --> 0:16:56.710 Jeannette Logan Francophone boyfriends that I'm aware of，I don't think so。 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:1.720 Jeannette Logan Use the park party culture。 0:17:3.600 --> 0:17:6.840 Jeannette Logan One of the things I remember in the in the nineteen seventies was。 0:17:8.620 --> 0:17:18.580 Jeannette Logan I was not a member of a sorority or a fraternity，but a lot of the boys wear and they used to have what they call these frat parties。 0:17:20.260 --> 0:17:25.740 Jeannette Logan At the frat house fraternity house，and they were really。 0:17:28.460 --> 0:17:36.900 Jeannette Logan There was a lot of drinking alcohol in those places and in those days I did not drink very much。Thank goodness，but I certainly remember。 0:17:38.700 --> 0:17:51.260 Jeannette Logan The some of the boys getting very，very drunk。I remember something called purple Jesus it was。It was a type of alcohol that they mixed with grape juice and it was horrible。 0:17:53.470 --> 0:18:0.790 Jeannette Logan So I did not drink very much of it，but other people did，um，the other thing I remember was wine。 0:18:1.910 --> 0:18:9.310 Jeannette Logan Very sweet in those days，people drank very sweet wine，which I do not like it all and now I get very dry wine now。 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:13.310 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I know，okay？ 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 Jeannette Logan All the Vietnam War that。 0:18:19.100 --> 0:18:19.820 Jeannette Logan Was an issue。 0:18:21.660 --> 0:18:22.660 Jeannette Logan We had。 0:18:25.220 --> 0:18:32.420 Jeannette Logan Young men that were called draft dodgers，they came up to Canada and I certainly knew some draft dodgers。 0:18:35.630 --> 0:18:36.750 Jeannette Logan In the Seventies。 0:18:39.370 --> 0:18:58.410 Jeannette Logan And one place where I worked，yes，that was in the Seventies we had some draft dodgers that were employed at at the at the I worked at the Ontario Science Center，and we had some American young men working there in the audio visual department。I remember that。 0:18:59.250 --> 0:19:1.650 Jeannette Logan Yeah，the Vietnam War that was awful。 0:19:3.850 --> 0:19:17.210 Jeannette Logan I remember a cousin of mine and who lives in the states，was drafted，but thank goodness he had flat feet for the so they didn't accept them as a soldier，so he didn't have to go to Vietnam。But I remember。 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:18.540 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:19:20.110 --> 0:19:20.590 Yuanming Tian Okay。 0:19:24.510 --> 0:19:28.270 Jeannette Logan Oh rock and roll that was very big。Um。 0:19:28.570 --> 0:19:36.250 Jeannette Logan The friends who are in a rock and roll band and these were friends from from from my high school back in Perry sound and。 0:19:37.770 --> 0:19:59.370 Jeannette Logan They had AA band in the beginning called the Georgian four，which was named after a Georgian Bay。That's where we came from near Georgia Bay and then later on they actually recorded music under the name chemos DHIMO。And if you go on to YouTube today，you can hear chemo。 0:20:0.870 --> 0:20:1.150 Jeannette Logan Now。 0:20:2.130 --> 0:20:2.410 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:20:3.990 --> 0:20:5.150 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:20:7.230 --> 0:20:8.190 Jeannette Logan Youth culture。 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:17.720 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:20:9.380 --> 0:20:25.300 Jeannette Logan Um，there was。I wasn't aware of any kind of drugs other than cigarettes。Cigarettes were all my goodness when I talked about the bars，that was one of the worst things about the bars that was so smoky，it was awful。I did。I never smoked。 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560 Jeannette Logan So I guess I probably tried a little marijuana now and then，but I didn't really。 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:33.620 Yuanming Tian Yeah，and。 0:20:33.250 --> 0:20:36.890 Jeannette Logan I didn't really adopt any drugs at all。 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:39.480 Yuanming Tian Yeah，I think。 0:20:42.60 --> 0:20:47.140 Jeannette Logan But I do remember to talk about psychedelic drugs like LSD。That was。 0:20:49.410 --> 0:20:52.650 Jeannette Logan Talked about，but I was not familiar of any。 0:20:54.980 --> 0:20:59.900 Jeannette Logan Any um use of LSD in my friend。 0:21:2.30 --> 0:21:5.150 Jeannette Logan Now the next section is called the female experience。 0:21:5.560 --> 0:21:7.280 Yuanming Tian Yeah，female experience。 0:21:8.280 --> 0:21:13.880 Jeannette Logan It says cultural historian to written a lot about what they call the second wave feminism。 0:21:14.670 --> 0:21:14.830 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:21:14.860 --> 0:21:26.20 Jeannette Logan That as part of the counter coach of movement women during this early seventies，sought to breakdown gender barriers。Does this argument resonate with your experience？Yes，very much so。 0:21:27.740 --> 0:21:28.860 Jeannette Logan I was certainly a。 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.40 Jeannette Logan A woman of that second wave feminism，I read a lot about it。 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:44.280 Jeannette Logan I never changed my name。Jeanette Logan is my birthday，even though I have been be。 0:21:44.580 --> 0:21:52.700 Jeannette Logan II never changed my name。I always thought it was important to keep my own identity。I always had my own bank accounts。 0:21:55.460 --> 0:21:58.580 Jeannette Logan That was important，but also in the nineteen seventy。 0:21:59.700 --> 0:22:14.340 Jeannette Logan We were leading up to the the royal Commission on the status of women in the nineteen seventies here in Canada，and those were very important women to us。They。 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.640 Jeannette Logan The way to to our freedom。 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:21.520 Jeannette Logan Or，our independent。That's right that way。 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:43.240 Jeannette Logan And in nineteen seventy five，that was the year the year of the woman，nineteen seventy five，but also I could say a big influence for women was the availability of the birth control field that came became available in the nineteen sixties。 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.600 Jeannette Logan Till the late nineteen sixties，and that was。 0:22:49.980 --> 0:22:56.140 Jeannette Logan That certainly involved a lot，a lot more sexual freedom than before。 0:22:58.760 --> 0:22:59.280 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:23:2.470 --> 0:23:3.270 Yuanming Tian OK thanks。 0:23:5.30 --> 0:23:11.30 Jeannette Logan To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notion about gender or family and dating were outdated？ 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.520 Jeannette Logan Well yes，I agree with that statement，except that my mother。 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:39.800 Jeannette Logan She was not allowed to go to university when she she graduated the top of her class in high school and but it was at the beginning of the Second World War for her too，and it was important that she went out to work while my father went to overseas to fight。But。 0:23:51.610 --> 0:23:51.770 Yuanming Tian oh 0:23:42.90 --> 0:23:53.170 Jeannette Logan My mother was certainly in favor of education for all of all of our children and my father too。My family supported higher education，so that was important。 0:23:54.540 --> 0:23:54.660 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:0.280 Jeannette Logan What part of Canadian society was most out of whack in need of fixing？ 0:24:2.280 --> 0:24:7.600 Jeannette Logan Good question。Oh well，job opportunities，job opportunities were poor for women。 0:24:9.400 --> 0:24:9.520 Jeannette Logan I。 0:24:9.740 --> 0:24:14.780 Jeannette Logan Could remember，and II could quote you when。 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:26.280 Jeannette Logan For a job as a medical because I studied sciences and I had worked in medical labs at a hospital and also at clinics。 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:57.760 Jeannette Logan I could I could take blood and other kinds of and do analysis，and I applied for a job。This is before I started teaching。I applied for a job，is to work in a laboratory and the man interviewing me told actually said to me，why would I hire you？You will just get married and have children and I won't have an employee anymore。I was twenty one years old and this is what he。 0:24:59.20 --> 0:25:15.140 Jeannette Logan He told me at the interview，so that was not very encouraging。I have to admit，so that's what I decided to go to，to go to teachers college because I wanted to help the next generation of children know more about science。So that's when I started teaching science in school。 0:25:17.500 --> 0:25:20.660 Jeannette Logan So I actually proved them wrong。I worked my whole life。 0:25:23.290 --> 0:25:23.770 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:25:25.980 --> 0:25:43.620 Jeannette Logan But there certainly was a glass ceiling that was II counted that throat in my whole career when I was still at university，I my original intentions were to be be a doctor and coming out of high。 0:25:51.40 --> 0:25:51.160 Yuanming Tian 。 0:25:44.180 --> 0:25:51.260 Jeannette Logan It's a valedictorian of my class and I had been accepted at three universities and。 0:25:54.50 --> 0:25:57.810 Jeannette Logan Throttle，Queens and western，and。 0:25:59.610 --> 0:26:2.90 Jeannette Logan But western offered me a very good scholarship。 0:26:3.770 --> 0:26:16.410 Jeannette Logan And my I was the eldest of six children and I thought that would be really helpful to have the scholarship，so I accepted their invitation to go to western，and then I discovered that。 0:26:18.290 --> 0:26:32.50 Jeannette Logan That I wouldn't be going into what was called pre Med in those days I had。I was going into AA standard science program and then I had to reapply for medical school after two years。 0:26:33.350 --> 0:26:56.790 Jeannette Logan And when I reapplied after two years，I did not get in。They had a quota on the number of women in in medical school at western。I think it was the same everywhere，but only twenty percent of the class could be female，so eighty percent of class was male and twenty percent was female。And my。 0:26:58.50 --> 0:27:12.290 Jeannette Logan Grades uh，I had seventy four point something percent，but that was not good enough。I had male colleagues in my chemistry class who got in with sixty six percent，but I couldn't get in with with seventy four。 0:27:14.290 --> 0:27:22.10 Jeannette Logan So I continued on in chemistry and graduated，but I didn't want to work in a laboratory，so that's how I ended up。 0:27:22.870 --> 0:27:27.870 Jeannette Logan Teaching but II don't regret it though I enjoy the teaching。 0:27:30.780 --> 0:27:36.260 Jeannette Logan OK，so where are we at that？That was out of whack，that's for sure，and that was injustice too。 0:27:37.650 --> 0:27:38.850 Yuanming Tian I also like teaching。 0:27:39.820 --> 0:27:44.540 Jeannette Logan You feel that the political system was democratic，fair and responsive to citizens needs。 0:27:46.220 --> 0:27:51.180 Jeannette Logan Well，I was quite involved with politics too。In those days，I certainly campaigned for。 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:57.440 Jeannette Logan For for Pierre Elliott Trudeau。I was part of the youth。 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:29.360 Jeannette Logan Do you use campaigning for for，uh，during that election？Um so II，actually my，my，my family was quite involved with politics at the local level，so it wasn't unusual，so I was I we we all look forward to having Pierre Trudeau as our as our Prime Minister。He seemed to be，he seemed to be more with it than。 0:28:30.820 --> 0:28:34.180 Jeannette Logan Than some of the other ones once we had before。 0:28:40.270 --> 0:28:43.470 Jeannette Logan OK，do you wanna go on to question number three now？ 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.600 Yuanming Tian Yeah。 0:28:45.850 --> 0:28:58.730 Jeannette Logan Cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill，legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology change，gender relations and dating practice in the early seventies。 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:1.520 Jeannette Logan Yes，I would agree with that statement。 0:29:4.490 --> 0:29:10.210 Jeannette Logan I definitely，uh。I first took the birth control pill because I had very painful。 0:29:12.10 --> 0:29:30.330 Jeannette Logan Menstrual periods and I。But I can remember have being embarrassed going to pick up the the birth control pills at the drug store because the pharmacist or the person dispensing them would give you AA sly look about what，what are you going to do this weekend？I can remember being very。 0:29:31.390 --> 0:29:32.590 Jeannette Logan Improper，if you ask me？ 0:29:38.890 --> 0:29:49.130 Jeannette Logan Uh date with with a lot of dating at university。Uh，there were lots of，uh，events like dances and uh other。 0:29:51.50 --> 0:30:2.490 Jeannette Logan Other um social events that happened and I was a very social person，so I participated a lot of them and I had a number of boyfriends，but only。 0:30:2.710 --> 0:30:8.550 Jeannette Logan Few of them became intimate boyfriends or very few to be honest，but some。 0:30:10.930 --> 0:30:11.450 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:30:15.60 --> 0:30:17.540 Jeannette Logan How did your generation look at family and marriage？ 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.600 Jeannette Logan Well，yes，that was，um。 0:30:25.710 --> 0:30:26.710 Jeannette Logan You basically，you know？ 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.720 Jeannette Logan You're basically where it's supposed to get pregnant。Unfortunately，I did。 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.520 Jeannette Logan And getting it getting an abortion was even though it was supposedly legal。 0:30:39.260 --> 0:30:39.580 Jeannette Logan Was not。 0:30:40.740 --> 0:30:57.660 Jeannette Logan Not readily available。Let's put it that way and I ended up having um，an illegal abortion which was not a pleasant experience。Well，the experience wasn't too bad，but the aftermath was unpleasant and I ended up in the hospital，so that was。 0:30:58.370 --> 0:31:1.490 Jeannette Logan Not a good experience，I have to admit。 0:31:2.600 --> 0:31:4.960 Jeannette Logan But that was the way things were those days。 0:31:7.150 --> 0:31:7.630 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:22.380 Jeannette Logan Ohh，I remember when my my sister got pregnant as well，and，um，this was well with a little bit after me，of course，but。 0:31:24.340 --> 0:31:26.340 Jeannette Logan One and she。 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:52.320 Jeannette Logan Miscarriage and she went to the local hospital and I remember my mother refused to go and visit her in the hospital because we lived in a small town and she was not going to go and and show her face because her daughter was there who had a miscarriage so that sort of shows what the feeling was about having a child out of wedlock and not being married。 0:31:57.660 --> 0:32:3.220 Jeannette Logan OK，so the next section is called sexuality and harassment。 0:32:6.300 --> 0:32:15.900 Jeannette Logan Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment to what extent the university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe。 0:32:17.190 --> 0:32:21.830 Jeannette Logan Well，I have to be honest，I never felt unsafe，so I'm not。 0:32:23.730 --> 0:32:26.650 Jeannette Logan All the dances and whatever did have monitors there。 0:32:28.350 --> 0:32:30.110 Jeannette Logan I would suspect if somebody。 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.760 Jeannette Logan Thought they were in trouble。They might be able to get some help。 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.360 Jeannette Logan But，but to be honest。 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:42.440 Jeannette Logan I didn't have。 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:52.760 Jeannette Logan Any problems at university that I recall feeling harassed or I was pretty good at looking after myself，I guess？ 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:55.750 Jeannette Logan Speaking up for myself。 0:33:3.400 --> 0:33:16.480 Jeannette Logan What our generation is interested in a free love movement。What was the perception of premarital sex on the campus in the Seventies？Was it viewed，negatively accepted or even encouraged？ 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:24.680 Jeannette Logan I don't recall it being encouraged，but it wasn't。It wasn't unacceptable。 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:33.720 Jeannette Logan But when you say free love though，I certainly wouldn't have was never an adherent of of different sexual partners at the same time。 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:47.760 Jeannette Logan II was one one boyfriend at a time person and usually a boyfriend that I'd had for for a period of time，not just not just the first date kind of arrangement。 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.240 Yuanming Tian Ohh OK。 0:33:58.980 --> 0:34:2.140 Jeannette Logan Of your parents generation worry about premarital sex。 0:34:4.70 --> 0:34:10.990 Jeannette Logan Well，if they did，I don't remember them talking to me about it other than I guess it was sort of a understood that。 0:34:12.370 --> 0:34:14.530 Jeannette Logan That was a dangerous thing to to do。 0:34:16.410 --> 0:34:20.450 Jeannette Logan Because，well，unless you were，unless you were on the birth control pill。 0:34:22.630 --> 0:34:26.870 Jeannette Logan Which once it was available，I was，I was，I was on the birth control pill。 0:34:47.10 --> 0:34:47.130 Yuanming Tian Huh？ 0:34:28.330 --> 0:34:58.50 Jeannette Logan Years like all the time，but although I do remember these，they used to say that you shouldn't stay on the brisket tool for for a long period of time and they advised you to get off it for a couple of months each year。That that's what I got pregnant。That's what I remember，and I could tell you that unfortunately，poorest poor sexual education didn't help my boyfriend at the time，who had been a boyfriend for quite some time。 0:34:59.630 --> 0:35:24.30 Jeannette Logan Didn't realize that he could impregnate me before he had an orgasm，so he would determine ignorant because he didn't know that he didn't know that information，but that was that was the cause of me getting pregnant because he was unaware even though and I can remember I tried to talk him out of it，but that didn't work。Come to think of it。 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.600 Yuanming Tian OK no problem。 0:35:29.690 --> 0:35:32.10 Yuanming Tian It shouldn't be all finished。 0:35:33.620 --> 0:35:35.340 Jeannette Logan Have I answered all the questions now？ 0:35:36.550 --> 0:35:38.590 Yuanming Tian Uh，maybe no question。 0:35:39.990 --> 0:35:41.910 Yuanming Tian Let me see just a second。 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:43.40 Yuanming Tian um。 0:35:44.410 --> 0:35:46.650 Yuanming Tian Just a second I want to see。 0:35:48.250 --> 0:35:49.730 Yuanming Tian Maybe it's no question。 0:35:50.220 --> 0:35:51.140 Jeannette Logan No more questions。 0:35:51.580 --> 0:35:52.580 Yuanming Tian Yeah，maybe，um？ 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:53.470 Jeannette Logan Maybe。 0:35:58.40 --> 0:36:0.440 Jeannette Logan Are you asking？Is there anything else I wish to add？ 0:36:5.450 --> 0:36:8.530 Yuanming Tian Uh，yeah，yeah，you can。You can do it。 0:36:14.260 --> 0:36:25.300 Jeannette Logan Well，um，I would say that nineteen seventies was a，um。There were a lot of things happening in the nineteen seventies，not just with the women's liberation。 0:36:27.60 --> 0:36:33.660 Jeannette Logan The other thing that was that was coming on board then was talk about the environment。 0:36:35.700 --> 0:36:39.460 Jeannette Logan We were already having started。 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:47.920 Jeannette Logan I can remember I was recycling bottles and cans and papers from the beginning in the nineteen seventies in Ottawa。 0:36:49.570 --> 0:36:49.810 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:36:49.300 --> 0:36:56.60 Jeannette Logan Um，I lived in，uh，I lived in Ottawa during the nineteen seventies，and um。 0:36:57.900 --> 0:36:59.180 Jeannette Logan And I also remember。 0:37:0.780 --> 0:37:10.620 Jeannette Logan Learning about because I worked at the Ontario Science Center at one point in Toronto，and we had AA new。 0:37:10.700 --> 0:37:12.860 Jeannette Logan Exhibition area called。 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:29.980 Jeannette Logan Planet earth and it was based on ecology，so I learned about ecology in the relationship between the environment and and everything in the environment，and I。 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:42.120 Jeannette Logan Learned about groups of people that were working to alert us to the problems that were appearing in our environment，and there was a。 0:37:44.100 --> 0:37:46.540 Jeannette Logan Group in Switzerland，I think。 0:37:50.150 --> 0:38:2.670 Jeannette Logan I'm trying to know what they were called though，but they。They produced a book called limits to growth，and if I remember correctly it was published in nineteen seventy five and it basically said that。 0:38:4.550 --> 0:38:16.190 Jeannette Logan We couldn't keep on just thinking we could grow bigger and better，bigger and better every year and not destroy the environment basically so。 0:38:16.610 --> 0:38:22.730 Jeannette Logan And Dr Suzuki was David Suzuki was was beginning in those years。 0:38:24.530 --> 0:38:27.930 Jeannette Logan He he was the original produc。 0:38:28.610 --> 0:38:35.10 Jeannette Logan The radio program called quirks and quarks，which is on CBC radio still today。 0:38:36.270 --> 0:38:45.710 Jeannette Logan And um and and he was talking about the environment back back then，and so when I，my career towards。 0:38:47.550 --> 0:38:48.510 Jeannette Logan Towards the end。 0:38:51.350 --> 0:39:12.670 Jeannette Logan I was working in the field of environment and and this was because of what I learned back in the nineteen seventies。I was now into the nineteen nineties，but I was really conscious of of the concern for the environment and look at us。Look at us now like。 0:39:14.670 --> 0:39:27.310 Jeannette Logan How many，how many more years？I would agree about？Thirty years later，after the nineteen nineties and we're talking about a climate crisis，but we were already talking about the potential for a climate crisis in the nineteen seventies，so。 0:39:29.70 --> 0:39:36.30 Jeannette Logan It was a very important decade if you asked me and I。 0:39:36.230 --> 0:39:38.230 Jeannette Logan At A at a very significant。 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:48.290 Jeannette Logan On not only my life personally，but also my career and and my activity，my activism today。 0:39:50.70 --> 0:39:56.150 Jeannette Logan I am still active in in society，trying to help the environment and。 0:39:57.350 --> 0:40:1.590 Jeannette Logan Other important things。So like I said，that's about all I wanted to say。 0:40:3.600 --> 0:40:4.880 Yuanming Tian OK sounds good。 0:40:8.90 --> 0:40:18.50 Jeannette Logan Well，thank you。Thank you，Philip。Um for giving me this opportunity to share my history，I really enjoyed it and I hope I haven't forgotten anything significant。 0:40:18.890 --> 0:40:23.890 Yuanming Tian Ohh yeah yeah I buy I buy。 0:40:24.110 --> 0:40:47.510 Yuanming Tian Sir，you give me a opportunity to now，uh，the Canada history because I'm international student，so II prefer to now other countries history such as my hometown country，my hometown history，so I don't I。 0:40:48.490 --> 0:40:56.930 Yuanming Tian um，clear the Kandahar history，but you tell me today，so I'm very thank you，um，I thank you very much。 0:40:59.430 --> 0:40:59.630 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:0.810 --> 0:41:1.290 Yuanming Tian OK。 0:41:2.220 --> 0:41:2.380 Yuanming Tian um？ 0:41:1.0 --> 0:41:30.680 Jeannette Logan Thank you。Thank you for this and thank you for your efforts Philip and uh content。I hope I also enjoy history even though I studied sciences。Um，I found out as an adult later that I didn't know enough about history，so I've I've read quite a bit of his history for Canada and other countries as well，and it's a it's a。It's a strong interest of mine amongst other interests。 0:41:32.40 --> 0:41:32.640 Jeannette Logan Bye bye for now。 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.440 Yuanming Tian OKbye。 0:41:37.420 --> 0:41:38.780 Yuanming Tian Have a nice day bye。 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:40.120 Jeannette Logan Goodbye。 0:41:40.730 --> 0:41:41.290 Yuanming Tian um，bye Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Logan, Jeanette (interview) Subject The topic of the resource Analyze the experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Yuanming Tian Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Microsoft Teams Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 42 minutes 1970s Bilingualism Dating Drugs Gender Gender Discrimination Marriage medical school Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Pill Popular Music Royal Commission on the Status of Women Second-Wave Feminism University of Ottawa Vietnam Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Catholic grade schools Immaculata High School University of Ottawa Degree BA Career professional Occupation Nurse Ethnicity Swiss Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Paradis, Philippe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Palmer, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis So for the first question, cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa has a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis So the first question would be there were less electronics in Canada in the 70s. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Like none. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis So how was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 70s? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Well, we went to the pub after school. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer I'm sure they still do that now, but there was. 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer We went to my father, used to laugh. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer We went to the library every night and after the library closed that cause I was studying nursing. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer So we were at the medical library, we would go to the the Albion, which I don't think is there anymore. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer It's gone and probably went there almost every night. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer There were dances, there were. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer We ran the School of Nursing on. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.140 Liz Palmer We were in the and at that point we were at the building where engineering is now. 0:1:44.750 --> 0:1:50.940 Liz Palmer Which is probably an old building to you, but for us it was brand new and every Friday we ran a pub. 0:1:51.530 --> 0:1:56.410 Liz Palmer One week it was by nursing and the other week it was by the engineering students. 0:1:57.150 --> 0:2:3.220 Liz Palmer So there were lots of pubs, parties, lots of get togethers. 0:2:3.750 --> 0:2:7.180 Liz Palmer Umm, that kind of thing. 0:2:7.190 --> 0:2:9.700 Liz Palmer And there was some art groups. 0:2:10.230 --> 0:2:12.800 Liz Palmer There were readings. 0:2:13.470 --> 0:2:14.230 Liz Palmer There were. 0:2:16.730 --> 0:2:18.0 Liz Palmer Poetry readings auto. 0:2:18.10 --> 0:2:21.770 Liz Palmer You had a lot of that kind of stuff and they used to go to all those sorts of things, yeah. 0:2:22.820 --> 0:2:25.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So like a lot of obviously in person activities. 0:2:25.250 --> 0:2:27.100 Liz Palmer All it was all in person. 0:2:32.10 --> 0:2:36.980 Philippe Alain Paradis And so you mentioned pubs, so that sort of answers the question. 0:2:36.990 --> 0:2:40.260 Philippe Alain Paradis What we're the most popular hangout spots on and off campus. 0:2:41.770 --> 0:2:51.420 Liz Palmer It would be the Albion for us and and then the pub that we ran, the weekly pub that ran at the at the at the build. 0:2:51.430 --> 0:2:54.860 Liz Palmer I forget what the name of the building is now, but it was it's. 0:2:55.70 --> 0:2:56.620 Liz Palmer It's the engineering building now. 0:2:56.710 --> 0:3:2.300 Liz Palmer They had a big common room there and that's that's that was every Friday night through the through the whole year. 0:3:3.520 --> 0:3:3.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Nice. 0:3:4.620 --> 0:3:7.750 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you attend any live music events during the university years? 0:3:8.990 --> 0:3:12.100 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, a lot of those things that we went to had live bands. 0:3:13.300 --> 0:3:17.10 Liz Palmer Some of them had DJ's, umm. 0:3:17.210 --> 0:3:18.920 Liz Palmer There was no rap in those days. 0:3:18.930 --> 0:3:23.790 Liz Palmer Everything was disco in the 70s, so yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:3:25.380 --> 0:3:32.280 Liz Palmer Ohh, looky, Looky Boo was a big deal on Sussex and it was alternative music at the time. 0:3:33.170 --> 0:3:37.720 Liz Palmer Umm, it would have been folk music, different things like that. 0:3:38.590 --> 0:3:42.470 Liz Palmer Different groups would have come into that smaller area. 0:3:42.840 --> 0:3:44.620 Liz Palmer Bruce Coburn in different people like that. 0:3:45.650 --> 0:3:47.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Were there a lot of rock bands back then? 0:3:47.970 --> 0:3:49.120 Philippe Alain Paradis At these places. 0:3:49.100 --> 0:3:51.710 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, there were some that wasn't really. 0:3:51.720 --> 0:3:54.80 Liz Palmer I I liked a lot of different music but. 0:3:56.250 --> 0:4:3.770 Liz Palmer Trying to think of there were quite a number of Ottawa that five man electrical band I think was one of them. 0:4:5.140 --> 0:4:7.340 Philippe Alain Paradis So disco is the big one. 0:4:7.840 --> 0:4:10.30 Liz Palmer Disco was the big thing at that time. 0:4:10.40 --> 0:4:18.40 Liz Palmer Probably more into the mid 70s, but I started in started Ottawa U. 0:4:18.50 --> 0:4:21.420 Liz Palmer Guess it was September of 1970, yeah. 0:4:26.990 --> 0:4:29.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa said earlier auto you auto was the bilingual institution. 0:4:30.370 --> 0:4:34.0 Philippe Alain Paradis How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? 0:4:39.700 --> 0:4:40.640 Liz Palmer Yep, Yep. 0:4:34.10 --> 0:4:40.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? Yeah. 0:4:41.860 --> 0:4:43.550 Liz Palmer I wasn't a big club person. 0:4:44.310 --> 0:4:46.980 Liz Palmer The nursing program was very busy. 0:4:48.510 --> 0:4:50.930 Liz Palmer We had lots of classes in. 0:4:50.940 --> 0:4:53.320 Liz Palmer Mike was interesting in my class Ottawa. 0:4:53.330 --> 0:5:1.930 Liz Palmer You the first year there were, I would say, 120 students, 130 students maybe. 0:5:1.940 --> 0:5:2.590 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:5:2.680 --> 0:5:6.440 Liz Palmer They seem to be a lot out, I'd say more than half of them were French speaking. 0:5:7.260 --> 0:5:11.430 Liz Palmer They had very little, if any, English. 0:5:11.580 --> 0:5:13.670 Liz Palmer Most of them came to Ottawa. 0:5:13.680 --> 0:5:17.550 Liz Palmer Because they were told they could take their course in French. 0:5:18.120 --> 0:5:25.600 Liz Palmer However, the nursing program at that time was very new in on Canada and especially on Ontario. 0:5:25.870 --> 0:5:30.910 Liz Palmer So they're all the teachers came from the US or had been trained in the US so they all spoke English. 0:5:31.640 --> 0:5:37.730 Liz Palmer So all the nursing programs were done in English, but they could do all their other classes in French. 0:5:38.260 --> 0:5:45.630 Liz Palmer So we lost, I would say at least 1/3 of the students after first year because they couldn't, they couldn't. 0:5:46.220 --> 0:5:52.870 Liz Palmer They weren't good enough in English to to pass to sit through the classes, so I don't know where they went. 0:5:52.880 --> 0:5:57.330 Liz Palmer They may have gone to to Montreal or to Sherbrooke, or I don't know where they went. 0:5:58.110 --> 0:6:2.320 Liz Palmer But the English, the nursing program was only offered in English. 0:6:2.330 --> 0:6:5.170 Liz Palmer I'm I'm not sure, but I think it still is even to this day. 0:6:6.400 --> 0:6:7.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Huh, that's interesting. 0:6:9.30 --> 0:6:10.590 Philippe Alain Paradis They were really just French. 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:12.60 Philippe Alain Paradis There weren't as many bilingual people? 0:6:12.660 --> 0:6:21.160 Liz Palmer Well, the bilingual students were fine, but there were a large number of French only students, and they came from all over Quebec. 0:6:21.420 --> 0:6:24.830 Liz Palmer Small a lot of them came from small towns, northern Ontario. 0:6:25.820 --> 0:6:29.500 Liz Palmer Some of them came from New Brunswick and and they only spoke French. 0:6:30.650 --> 0:6:35.460 Liz Palmer So, but anyone who was bilingual and and had enough English. 0:6:35.940 --> 0:6:36.290 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:6:36.300 --> 0:6:44.240 Liz Palmer A number of my friends were French Canadian and they but they were bilingual and they had enough of English that they could. 0:6:44.250 --> 0:6:51.120 Liz Palmer They could handle the course load, so that was fine, but if you were totally French, it was very difficult. 0:6:53.60 --> 0:7:1.240 Philippe Alain Paradis You might not know this cause it's like a really specific question, but do you have any information on if anglophones and francophones dated each other during the 1970s? 0:7:1.710 --> 0:7:2.820 Liz Palmer Oh, absolutely. 0:7:3.300 --> 0:7:3.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:7:3.210 --> 0:7:4.330 Liz Palmer Absolutely. Sure. 0:7:5.100 --> 0:7:5.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:7:7.70 --> 0:7:7.730 Liz Palmer Why wouldn't we? 0:7:6.270 --> 0:7:8.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, so we use the term alright. 0:7:10.940 --> 0:7:13.350 Philippe Alain Paradis I mean, I guess like the language barrier with a lot of them, right? 0:7:13.360 --> 0:7:15.580 Philippe Alain Paradis If they if they just spoke French, they. 0:7:16.270 --> 0:7:19.400 Liz Palmer Most I'll tell you, most French people speak some English. 0:7:19.870 --> 0:7:22.330 Liz Palmer Most English people don't speak very much French. 0:7:24.810 --> 0:7:25.800 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:7:23.370 --> 0:7:26.330 Philippe Alain Paradis I've I've found that to be true as well, yeah. 0:7:25.870 --> 0:7:35.910 Liz Palmer And I spoke, I I grew up in a Ottawa in a in a real working class neighborhood and I would say more than 50% of the people in my neighborhood spoke French. 0:7:39.70 --> 0:7:39.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:7:35.920 --> 0:7:39.900 Liz Palmer So I could speak French to A to some degree, yeah. 0:7:40.50 --> 0:7:40.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:7:40.730 --> 0:7:45.920 Philippe Alain Paradis So we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. 0:7:46.160 --> 0:7:50.910 Philippe Alain Paradis How do you describe the party culture on the University Ottawa campus during 70s? 0:7:52.480 --> 0:7:53.0 Liz Palmer Vibrant. 0:7:56.820 --> 0:7:57.470 Liz Palmer It was. 0:7:57.880 --> 0:8:0.230 Liz Palmer It was very active and it was great. 0:8:0.240 --> 0:8:0.600 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:8:0.660 --> 0:8:2.20 Liz Palmer Yeah, we had a lot of parties. 0:8:2.30 --> 0:8:5.530 Liz Palmer We I remember everything was face to face. 0:8:5.540 --> 0:8:7.360 Liz Palmer There was no virtual stuff. 0:8:7.670 --> 0:8:10.360 Liz Palmer Computers didn't really exist. 0:8:10.450 --> 0:8:12.10 Liz Palmer I had a friend who was in. 0:8:14.30 --> 0:8:19.870 Liz Palmer Uh, in computer math at in Kitchener. 0:8:19.880 --> 0:8:21.420 Liz Palmer Waterloo at Waterloo. 0:8:21.430 --> 0:8:23.590 Liz Palmer You and she. 0:8:24.710 --> 0:8:31.60 Liz Palmer I would go down to visit her and I would go into would go in at 2:00, o'clock in the morning to play, quote, unquote play on the computer. 0:8:31.70 --> 0:8:34.270 Liz Palmer And the computer was the size of a of a huge room, right? 0:8:35.80 --> 0:8:42.240 Liz Palmer So computers, that's the that's that was probably 7273 somewhere in there. 0:8:42.330 --> 0:8:48.900 Liz Palmer So at that point, there were no tabletop computers or anything that you could that you could easily use. 0:8:49.50 --> 0:8:52.460 Liz Palmer There were no phones like cell phones or anything like that. 0:8:52.470 --> 0:9:4.90 Liz Palmer So yeah, the whole culture was, uh, face to face party, music, dancing, you know, different things like that. So. 0:9:5.20 --> 0:9:5.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:9:5.370 --> 0:9:7.390 Philippe Alain Paradis You really had to like if you want to have fun. 0:9:12.540 --> 0:9:13.250 Liz Palmer Well, it was. 0:9:7.400 --> 0:9:13.300 Philippe Alain Paradis You really have to like set up events and stuff that there wasn't as much digital stuff you want or any digital stuff you could do, yeah. 0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:15.590 Liz Palmer It was normal to set stuff up. 0:9:16.270 --> 0:9:16.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:9:15.600 --> 0:9:22.270 Liz Palmer I mean, whether you go down to the market, the market was a place that you could go to, but it wasn't the way it is now. 0:9:22.780 --> 0:9:28.170 Liz Palmer Leibu was on Sussex and then there were a couple of other coffee houses in the city, but. 0:9:30.360 --> 0:9:36.650 Liz Palmer If you wanted to meet people, you had to go out and and it was just you. 0:9:36.660 --> 0:9:38.410 Liz Palmer Just everybody just went out all the time. 0:9:38.420 --> 0:9:43.110 Liz Palmer It was none of this, like, you know, covid's really put a damper on a whole lot of stuff. 0:9:43.120 --> 0:9:45.860 Liz Palmer So life was very, very different. 0:9:46.820 --> 0:9:47.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:9:47.240 --> 0:9:51.430 Philippe Alain Paradis Today, if you want to go to a party, you like have to seek it out pretty intensely. 0:9:52.580 --> 0:9:53.490 Liz Palmer Yeah, I. 0:9:51.440 --> 0:9:55.980 Philippe Alain Paradis I find like the you have to, you have to really look for it. Umm. 0:9:56.40 --> 0:10:1.650 Liz Palmer So yeah, the and the girls that lived in the I lived at home, I say half the class. 0:10:1.660 --> 0:10:4.350 Liz Palmer The My class still lived at home in Ottawa. 0:10:4.800 --> 0:10:11.290 Liz Palmer A few were from outside the city and a number of people lived, you know, on on campus. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.830 Liz Palmer And there were campus. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.320 Liz Palmer There were parties, you know, and on campus as well. 0:10:17.810 --> 0:10:21.70 Liz Palmer And there was, I think there were. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:31.540 Liz Palmer Not that I went there very often, but there were small little cafes all around the university and you could go there and just drink. 0:10:31.630 --> 0:10:35.180 Liz Palmer They didn't have booze or anything, but you go drink coffee and meet your friends and stuff. 0:10:35.190 --> 0:10:37.60 Liz Palmer And there were a number of those places around. 0:10:37.810 --> 0:10:40.60 Liz Palmer There were couple on on Laurie. 0:10:40.70 --> 0:10:48.300 Liz Palmer There was a coffee, quote unquote coffee house at the university, but it was kind of more like a, you know, a great big open area. 0:10:48.310 --> 0:10:53.240 Liz Palmer It wasn't very intimate or small or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:57.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:10:54.930 --> 0:11:0.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Total like 180 from that what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:11:2.320 --> 0:11:3.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like the general sentiment. 0:11:6.390 --> 0:11:7.410 Liz Palmer Pretty much over by then. 0:11:8.340 --> 0:11:8.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.750 Liz Palmer It was in my life. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.90 Liz Palmer It wasn't a huge deal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.480 Liz Palmer The bigger deal, because I was at school during the October crisis. 0:11:18.620 --> 0:11:18.810 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:11:18.740 --> 0:11:19.50 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:11:18.820 --> 0:11:19.770 Liz Palmer With the FLQ. 0:11:19.780 --> 0:11:25.880 Liz Palmer So when I was walking up to school, there were soldiers in the streets and there were tanks in the streets. 0:11:26.860 --> 0:11:39.100 Liz Palmer And that was interesting, I mean, but it just was there, I mean those things you know, if there's, you know you're walking up to school one day cause I lived in new Edinburgh and I would walk up to Ottawa. 0:11:39.110 --> 0:11:51.990 Liz Palmer You where I take the bus and all of a sudden there were tanks in the streets and there were and they because Ottawa U was a French university, quote unquote. It was. 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:54.180 Liz Palmer It was classified as a French university. 0:11:55.590 --> 0:11:57.860 Liz Palmer They had a lot of soldiers and stuff around there. 0:11:57.870 --> 0:12:4.810 Liz Palmer Nothing ever happened, but it because of the FLQ crisis and everything that happened after that, there was a lot of. 0:12:7.360 --> 0:12:12.770 Liz Palmer I guess there was a lot of people watching to make sure nothing else would happen, but I never saw anything happened. 0:12:12.780 --> 0:12:19.900 Liz Palmer I just remember walking up and seeing this and being thinking ohh, but I wasn't terribly politically involved at that point. 0:12:26.910 --> 0:12:28.470 Liz Palmer Exactly, yeah. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:34.420 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, that, that reminds me a little bit of my first year when I am I could hear like the trucker convoy honking like it's it's just kind of jarring to know that there's like a large group of people that in, like, tensions are really high. 0:12:34.490 --> 0:12:34.690 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that must have been something to witness. 0:12:36.970 --> 0:12:42.240 Liz Palmer It it it was, it was quite something that we never seen anything like that before, right? 0:12:42.250 --> 0:12:50.30 Liz Palmer And but there was no like, I mean there my parents would say, well, I I tell them what happened and they say, oh, well, just stay out of the neighborhood or walk around it. 0:12:50.40 --> 0:12:56.520 Liz Palmer And nobody had little fits about, you know, all the oh, my God, my kids gonna get killed or something. 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:57.120 Liz Palmer It was nothing. 0:13:1.260 --> 0:13:1.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:12:58.180 --> 0:13:2.370 Liz Palmer I guess people just didn't realize what could have happened if something had happened. 0:13:2.380 --> 0:13:4.600 Liz Palmer You know, I don't know, but. 0:13:4.700 --> 0:13:13.510 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, it's interesting that people weren't as well, like, at least some people weren't as interested in the Vietnam War cause the way like I was taught it, it was such like a contentious thing. 0:13:13.740 --> 0:13:16.840 Philippe Alain Paradis But I guess by the 70s it was, it was mostly done with. 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:18.800 Liz Palmer It was contentious in the states. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:13:19.50 --> 0:13:21.330 Liz Palmer There were in Canada. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.890 Liz Palmer There were. 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:39.810 Liz Palmer There was a woman in my class whose husband was a deserter or a conscientious objector or deserter, according to whichever side you were on and and she and she and her husband moved up from the States and she was quite a bit older. 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:49.550 Liz Palmer She was probably in her mid mid 20s and she had a child at that point, so they came up ohm because of that and that was always interesting. 0:13:49.560 --> 0:13:49.920 Liz Palmer You talked? 0:13:49.930 --> 0:13:53.260 Liz Palmer Or kept in touch with her for years and years after. 0:13:53.430 --> 0:13:54.420 Liz Palmer But they never went back. 0:13:55.430 --> 0:14:0.920 Liz Palmer They stayed in Canada that they liked it and they didn't want their son to end up going through what they had gone through. 0:14:0.930 --> 0:14:3.980 Liz Palmer But I mean, it was in the news all the time and whatever. 0:14:3.990 --> 0:14:10.780 Liz Palmer But it was just part of it's, you know, part of the regular news news reports. 0:14:11.710 --> 0:14:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm so rock'n'roll artists and the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:33.840 Liz Palmer Thanking care one way or the other, my parents were from Switzerland, so they were first generate like they were. 0:14:34.70 --> 0:14:43.0 Liz Palmer They both came in the late 40s and had every intention of moving back to Switzerland, but then somehow with four kids, it didn't happen. 0:14:43.370 --> 0:14:44.270 Liz Palmer So they were really. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:46.890 Liz Palmer Music. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.330 Liz Palmer Yeah, rock'n'roll was just a type of music for them. 0:14:49.340 --> 0:14:52.360 Liz Palmer They didn't particularly like it, but we didn't. 0:14:52.510 --> 0:14:59.790 Liz Palmer I didn't really start listening to the radio till I was about 12 years old, maybe 12 or 13 or so. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:8.880 Liz Palmer That would have been what, 6465, somewhere like that, as I really didn't know much about the music at all. 0:15:8.890 --> 0:15:10.360 Liz Palmer And I was the oldest of four. 0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:15.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:15:10.370 --> 0:15:15.700 Liz Palmer So U the others followed whatever they wanted to. 0:15:17.430 --> 0:15:20.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So they were kind of just indifferent about it, uh. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.220 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:15:22.70 --> 0:15:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Uh, so some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.20 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 70s? 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:34.330 Liz Palmer Not quite available. 0:15:33.470 --> 0:15:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis If you know, yeah. 0:15:34.620 --> 0:15:35.990 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were quite available. 0:15:36.380 --> 0:15:37.290 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were. 0:15:37.300 --> 0:15:43.510 Liz Palmer There was always somebody you could always buy something you always knew there was somebody around who could get stuff for you. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:47.450 Liz Palmer Never did anything for me, just made me feel sick. 0:15:47.460 --> 0:15:48.900 Liz Palmer So I never did much of it. 0:15:49.550 --> 0:15:51.370 Liz Palmer Umm so it's. 0:15:53.820 --> 0:15:57.270 Liz Palmer And we were so busy with other things that we didn't have time for that. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:7.700 Liz Palmer I mean, you know when when you're doing a nursing program, you went to school five days a week and then, but then you had to do, we had to be in the hospital 3 mornings a week. 0:16:7.710 --> 0:16:11.370 Liz Palmer So you didn't have time to, you didn't have time for any of that nonsense. 0:16:11.380 --> 0:16:18.810 Liz Palmer And we were all older and most of us, well, certainly me didn't have any access to it. 0:16:18.820 --> 0:16:24.30 Liz Palmer I went to a Catholic girls high school, so it was pretty strict and my family was very strict. 0:16:24.140 --> 0:16:26.930 Liz Palmer So I never really had got into this. 0:16:34.80 --> 0:16:34.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:29.0 --> 0:16:37.130 Liz Palmer Probably until I got to university, but and it was never a big deal for me or my friends, yeah. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Today it's pretty common like today, it's pretty common. 0:16:37.780 --> 0:16:41.430 Philippe Alain Paradis You'll see, like I'll be in the parking lot and I'll see someone smoking something a little funny. 0:16:42.110 --> 0:16:42.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.970 Philippe Alain Paradis And and you know it's it's very it was it open like that back then like it was just or well a more secretive. 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.840 Liz Palmer No, no, because it it was far more secretive. 0:16:49.850 --> 0:17:1.830 Liz Palmer I mean, I mean, the best thing was, is I remember we go to parties and there were brownies and I love brownies, so I would eat these brownies and and feel really weird after that. 0:17:1.840 --> 0:17:4.160 Liz Palmer And then somebody would say how many did you have? 0:17:4.170 --> 0:17:9.790 Liz Palmer And I say I had two or three and I said, Oh my God, you better go home or go sit in the corner and fall asleep. 0:17:9.800 --> 0:17:11.730 Liz Palmer So that's all it ever did and made me sleep. 0:17:11.740 --> 0:17:21.460 Liz Palmer So I was no fun at a party if they if if there were any drugs like that around it, it just wasn't something I wanted to waste my time or my money on. 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:22.610 Liz Palmer I didn't have any money either. 0:17:22.620 --> 0:17:24.770 Liz Palmer So you know that was the other thing too. 0:17:24.0 --> 0:17:26.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, not super appealing. 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:27.590 Liz Palmer No. 0:17:29.260 --> 0:17:38.930 Philippe Alain Paradis And the 19 in the 1970s see a lot of talk about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach like a higher state of consciousness. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you know like to what extent people use Hallucinogenics specifically? 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:46.950 Liz Palmer Not many people I knew. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 Liz Palmer We just, we all just figured it was stupid to do that. 0:17:50.700 --> 0:17:50.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Fair. 0:17:50.620 --> 0:17:52.610 Liz Palmer So why would you want to do that to yourself? 0:17:53.460 --> 0:17:53.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:17:53.780 --> 0:17:58.590 Liz Palmer Like we, we were not umm, we're very practical. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:1.60 Liz Palmer Down to Earth people, I don't know that it was just not. 0:18:2.680 --> 0:18:17.180 Liz Palmer I mean, I guess also because we were in nursing in medicine, we would see the results of some of this and it was very you know when we're doing mental health, there were a lot of people at the royal at that time who had tripped badly and there was no way I was gonna do any of that stuff. 0:18:18.170 --> 0:18:18.880 Philippe Alain Paradis That's interesting. 0:18:18.890 --> 0:18:23.230 Philippe Alain Paradis You actually got to see like the the bad results from that. Umm. 0:18:23.20 --> 0:18:23.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:34.910 Liz Palmer And if some of them were pretty awful, I mean that that was, I think the thing being in medicine or nursing or anything is that you you saw the result of bad medicine or bad tripping or bad drugs or whatever it was. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.540 Liz Palmer And you know, it was not pleasant. 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.100 Liz Palmer And and again we weren't. 0:18:39.90 --> 0:18:40.220 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you get a lot of those? 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.580 Liz Palmer There were some. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.70 Liz Palmer You know, we surgeries that went bad. 0:18:48.80 --> 0:19:4.610 Liz Palmer Uh, I saw a 12 year old have a baby and decided that point that maybe you know that having an abortion was not a bad thing, got into a lot of our angry discussions with my own parents who are fiercely Catholic and whatever. 0:19:4.620 --> 0:19:15.350 Liz Palmer And at that point, I left the church, and because there's no way that I could ever condone a 12 year old having a baby because that was, you know, she was my she was my client. 0:19:15.360 --> 0:19:20.280 Liz Palmer And I'm thinking, Holy God, you know, that's just not a way for anybody to start their life. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Nope. 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:22.540 Liz Palmer No. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, alright, so this one. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:30.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:43.250 Philippe Alain Paradis Will this next section will focus more on the female experience, so cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.80 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:49.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:54.310 --> 0:19:54.820 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:59.800 Liz Palmer I mean, there was we, we read all the the books and we, you know, we followed all that sort of stuff. 0:20:0.810 --> 0:20:2.530 Liz Palmer Probably more so than the war in Vietnam. 0:20:5.830 --> 0:20:14.760 Liz Palmer But everything was changing at that time, so it was very different from probably people have been at university in the 60s like. 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:25.730 Liz Palmer I mean, if you if you would talk to someone who was university in the 60s, if you'd get it very different viewpoint, I think umm, it was accepted that women would work. 0:20:26.740 --> 0:20:30.360 Liz Palmer It was accepted that, you know, women would get equal pay. 0:20:32.70 --> 0:20:33.130 Liz Palmer Uh, of course. 0:20:33.140 --> 0:20:36.170 Liz Palmer At that point, everybody is saying, oh, yes, yes, yes, that's the way it is. 0:20:36.180 --> 0:20:42.380 Liz Palmer And it wasn't till 20 years later that we realized that women were being paid less for the same jobs. 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:42.980 Liz Palmer Right. 0:20:43.580 --> 0:20:43.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:20:43.860 --> 0:20:44.580 Philippe Alain Paradis They're wage gap. 0:20:43.90 --> 0:20:44.860 Liz Palmer But that had yet to come. 0:20:45.130 --> 0:20:45.530 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:20:45.590 --> 0:20:51.360 Liz Palmer So the so the possibilities were there, everybody looked forward to things changing. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.560 Liz Palmer You know the burn, your bra thing that was there were a lot of went to a lot of those sorts of rallies and things like that. 0:21:0.580 --> 0:21:6.130 Liz Palmer Umm, but honestly, we were so busy we didn't have time to do a lot of that. 0:21:6.140 --> 0:21:12.420 Liz Palmer I mean, we were busy living our life and going to school and doing stuff was, you know, we didn't. 0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:14.450 Liz Palmer You had to hand write all your essays. 0:21:15.770 --> 0:21:17.140 Liz Palmer I didn't have a typewriter. 0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:25.60 Liz Palmer So you can imagine like you know, you were busy doing stuff and you actually had to go to a library and use books to look things up. 0:21:25.70 --> 0:21:27.0 Liz Palmer There was nothing online to do it. 0:21:27.10 --> 0:21:33.760 Liz Palmer So your life was busy doing things that now take a tenth of the time of what they used to take. 0:21:35.250 --> 0:21:35.710 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:21:34.730 --> 0:21:44.340 Liz Palmer And there's no there were no chat bots or whatever to get you through stuff, and there was no AI to write your papers for you or anything, you know. 0:21:44.350 --> 0:21:46.340 Liz Palmer So it was it was. 0:21:46.570 --> 0:21:47.280 Liz Palmer It was different. 0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:47.660 Liz Palmer It was a very. 0:21:49.450 --> 0:21:56.290 Liz Palmer Different time and I guess for women, I do remember I had a a friend in my class. 0:21:56.300 --> 0:21:58.560 Liz Palmer Her father was a physician here in Ottawa. 0:21:58.670 --> 0:22:0.440 Liz Palmer Old, old fashioned. 0:22:0.890 --> 0:22:1.740 Liz Palmer Nice man. 0:22:1.750 --> 0:22:3.310 Liz Palmer Old-fashioned French Canadian. 0:22:5.360 --> 0:22:7.190 Liz Palmer His daughter is was brilliant. 0:22:7.280 --> 0:22:14.770 Liz Palmer Probably the smartest of the whole family should have been a position, but he wouldn't allow her to do medicine because she was a girl. 0:22:14.820 --> 0:22:22.400 Liz Palmer Because women should stay home and have babies and look after their families and and at the time, I couldn't. 0:22:25.340 --> 0:22:25.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.830 Liz Palmer I I had really had a problem with that because. 0:22:25.630 --> 0:22:33.630 Philippe Alain Paradis So you went to like some events because like, I imagine that probably like sure like that made you feel stuff there that that's pretty that's pretty like upsetting to hear. 0:22:33.980 --> 0:22:35.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. Yeah. 0:22:33.930 --> 0:22:37.690 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, it was I I found it very upsetting but I have to. 0:22:38.580 --> 0:22:44.210 Liz Palmer It wasn't till years later till I realized that my parents were very different from a lot of other. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:47.70 Liz Palmer I came from a low a very working class neighborhood. 0:22:48.490 --> 0:22:54.350 Liz Palmer My parents both worked with no choice because they, but because they came from Europe, they were. 0:22:54.360 --> 0:22:58.320 Liz Palmer They weren't German, they were Swiss, but they were always treated as if they were German. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:22:59.990 Liz Palmer So post war, that was a big deal. 0:23:2.400 --> 0:23:12.10 Liz Palmer But my parents always said to said to my sister and I at the two oldest you guys are going to go to university like there was never any option that we wouldn't go. 0:23:13.50 --> 0:23:17.0 Liz Palmer It was expected that we would go to university and that's all there was to it. 0:23:17.170 --> 0:23:18.420 Liz Palmer We grew up that way. 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:30.700 Liz Palmer My brothers, my two younger brothers, went as well and I didn't realize till I was quite a bit older than a lot of women like they had to pay their own way to go to universe. 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:35.580 Liz Palmer Their parents wouldn't pay for it because women didn't go to university in those days. 0:23:36.130 --> 0:23:36.710 Liz Palmer They just didn't. 0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:41.450 Liz Palmer Umm, it was just you would go to. 0:23:41.460 --> 0:23:43.190 Liz Palmer You know you could work in the government. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:44.790 Liz Palmer You could do secretarial school. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:52.470 Liz Palmer I had good friends that did secretarial school, but out of my like, I'm thinking about my my sort of grade school class. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.100 Liz Palmer My even my high school, my high school class, was the best. 0:23:56.770 --> 0:24:10.780 Liz Palmer Graduated June 1970, I would say 1/3 of 1/3 of my class went on to university and I would say about half my class got married because they were. 0:24:11.130 --> 0:24:14.960 Liz Palmer They were Italian background so they got it. 0:24:15.70 --> 0:24:21.560 Liz Palmer They were lucky they got through high school and then they got married that summer and then the rest of us went on to do different things. 0:24:21.570 --> 0:24:25.310 Liz Palmer And I say maybe 1/3 of us out of that class went on to university. 0:24:26.120 --> 0:24:27.620 Liz Palmer So it was a very different time. 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:28.830 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:24:34.860 --> 0:24:36.750 Liz Palmer I wasn't inequality, it's just the way it was. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:37.230 Liz Palmer It was. 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:37.470 Philippe Alain Paradis So like as you went along, you started being exposed to more of these like injustices and like inequalities and a little bit, right? 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.70 Liz Palmer It was cultural. 0:24:38.80 --> 0:24:46.280 Liz Palmer It was very, very cultural and because because it was a Catholic girls school, there were a lot of Italian young ladies there. 0:24:46.290 --> 0:24:52.180 Liz Palmer They were friends, but those of us that weren't that were from different backgrounds. 0:24:52.190 --> 0:25:0.140 Liz Palmer I would say uh, as I said about 1/3 a third of bus went on to university and and finished university and did different things. 0:25:1.550 --> 0:25:4.140 Liz Palmer But then a whole lot of them didn't. 0:25:4.210 --> 0:25:7.960 Liz Palmer You know, some went on to secretarial school, some worked in a government. 0:25:9.40 --> 0:25:12.110 Liz Palmer It was umm, but I didn't realize again. 0:25:12.120 --> 0:25:21.280 Liz Palmer As I said earlier, until much later in life that my family was very different because the expectation was that we would go to university and my parents paid for it. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:22.160 Liz Palmer That was the other thing. 0:25:22.780 --> 0:25:23.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:25:22.750 --> 0:25:23.390 Liz Palmer My dad. 0:25:23.120 --> 0:25:23.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you. 0:25:23.470 --> 0:25:24.130 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:24.350 --> 0:25:25.240 Liz Palmer Yeah, my dad sort. 0:25:29.220 --> 0:25:29.370 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:32.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, you didn't realize like maybe later other people wouldn't agree with that, like other people might not like the notion of a woman going. Yeah. 0:25:33.980 --> 0:25:34.200 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:34.690 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, no women didn't. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:41.90 Liz Palmer There was still that that old fashioned idea that women don't go to university, they don't need higher education because they're just gonna get married. 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.100 Liz Palmer And they're gonna have kids, and they're gonna stay home. 0:25:43.850 --> 0:25:49.490 Liz Palmer Well, neither myself, my sister nor my good friends did any of that. 0:25:49.500 --> 0:25:50.800 Liz Palmer We we all. 0:25:50.860 --> 0:25:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, most of us married, we all had jobs. 0:25:53.210 --> 0:25:53.910 Liz Palmer We worked. 0:25:54.330 --> 0:26:7.310 Liz Palmer We were like that whole generation of younger women that had our children use daycare or whatever and and continued working right up until we retired. 0:26:8.700 --> 0:26:9.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:9.330 --> 0:26:13.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:26:14.120 --> 0:26:14.630 Philippe Alain Paradis How did? 0:26:14.740 --> 0:26:15.470 Philippe Alain Paradis How did that? 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:16.790 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:26:17.180 --> 0:26:17.620 Liz Palmer No kidding. 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:18.250 Philippe Alain Paradis How did peeing a woman? 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:18.890 Philippe Alain Paradis How? 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis How is it being a woman result in different treatments and expectations in classrooms where at social events compared to male students? 0:26:27.970 --> 0:26:31.120 Liz Palmer It's hard to say because most everyone in my class was female. 0:26:31.130 --> 0:26:33.390 Liz Palmer There were no male students, so. 0:26:33.450 --> 0:26:34.20 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:34.750 --> 0:26:41.770 Liz Palmer So in those days, yes, if you were going in to a building, the men would hold the door for you. 0:26:44.300 --> 0:26:44.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:26:44.230 --> 0:26:45.340 Liz Palmer That's all I. 0:26:45.380 --> 0:26:52.360 Liz Palmer But as you know, when it came to other, I think expectations of female students and male students were the same. 0:26:52.370 --> 0:26:53.480 Liz Palmer You had to produce. 0:26:53.790 --> 0:26:58.950 Liz Palmer You know, if there was paperwork to be done or essays to be written, you had to produce those. 0:27:0.540 --> 0:27:5.150 Liz Palmer I don't because my class was all women and all taught by women. 0:27:5.160 --> 0:27:7.670 Liz Palmer There were no male teachers either it. 0:27:8.800 --> 0:27:16.300 Liz Palmer I mean, I took the psychology and philosophy and I did some film classes and art classes and stuff, but. 0:27:21.150 --> 0:27:21.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:27:18.470 --> 0:27:22.210 Liz Palmer I didn't feel that there was any difference, to be honest. Yeah. 0:27:24.230 --> 0:27:24.990 Liz Palmer That was it, yeah. 0:27:21.670 --> 0:27:26.250 Philippe Alain Paradis You just attended class and did the work and that was that. Yeah. 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:39.160 Philippe Alain Paradis So in the 1970s, were there, you oughta programs, departments or clubs or like just social events or anything where women like or maybe you or just women in general, like felt less like present and accepted. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:42.930 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:43.930 Liz Palmer No, I never felt that. 0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:45.260 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:27:45.340 --> 0:27:47.130 Liz Palmer Now if I wanted to be there, I'd be there. 0:27:47.140 --> 0:27:49.500 Liz Palmer If I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. 0:27:49.860 --> 0:28:0.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, alright, so historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:28:1.390 --> 0:28:1.640 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:28:0.100 --> 0:28:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? 0:28:13.170 --> 0:28:15.380 Liz Palmer Umm interesting question. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:23.140 Liz Palmer I think we all felt the need to see it to get into a better world, for sure. 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:30.150 Liz Palmer Umm, we certainly felt that women were equal to anything a man did. 0:28:31.370 --> 0:28:31.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:28:34.650 --> 0:28:41.450 Liz Palmer There were probably guys I met that were stupid, but you know, they didn't last long in my world. 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.870 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.320 Liz Palmer I most of the boyfriends I had were older. 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:54.700 Liz Palmer UM, at the time the like. 0:28:54.710 --> 0:28:55.360 Liz Palmer It was interesting. 0:28:55.370 --> 0:29:1.590 Liz Palmer The engineers in our building were big drinkers, Big partiers. 0:29:2.850 --> 0:29:10.180 Liz Palmer I don't know if they're still the same I, but at the time that's the way they were the, you know, there was the football games and all that stuff. 0:29:10.190 --> 0:29:12.180 Liz Palmer And they were always drunk or whatever. 0:29:12.570 --> 0:29:21.230 Liz Palmer And they always sort of made stupid comments, but as we got to know them and they got to know us as people, it was that kind of disappeared. 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:22.470 Philippe Alain Paradis But humanize them. 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.610 Liz Palmer But that whole? 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.310 Liz Palmer Yeah, exactly. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.510 Liz Palmer But you know at the beginning it was all this stupid stuff and we just told them to get stuffed. 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:37.390 Liz Palmer And I mean, it was just most of our friends most we did a lot of work with the with medicine. 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:51.740 Liz Palmer Like we took some of our courses with the medical students and as we got to know them really well, like the people in that like their first year medicine and stuff we did, we did some anatomy and Physiology classes over at the medical building. 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:52.260 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:29:52.270 --> 0:30:2.930 Liz Palmer I don't think they do that anymore, but I I don't know how it's set up, but we got to know those guys and there were a few women, but again, it was mainly men there as well. 0:30:3.630 --> 0:30:8.0 Liz Palmer So and the and the nursing was all was all women and all female teachers. 0:30:8.10 --> 0:30:10.970 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess. 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:13.780 Liz Palmer I don't. 0:30:17.780 --> 0:30:18.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:30:15.10 --> 0:30:20.170 Liz Palmer I don't remember being terribly conscious about it, but it was certainly something that we were aware of. 0:30:20.180 --> 0:30:20.910 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:30:22.330 --> 0:30:30.120 Philippe Alain Paradis And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents, notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:30:35.780 --> 0:30:37.690 Liz Palmer Yeah, well, that was an interesting one. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:45.100 Liz Palmer Umm my, I would go on a date in the first thing my mother would say is what is this father do and where does he go to church? 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.390 Liz Palmer And I said I have no clue. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:48.250 Liz Palmer I could just. 0:30:48.820 --> 0:30:52.330 Liz Palmer To me, that was that was the traditional role, right? 0:30:52.700 --> 0:30:58.390 Liz Palmer I I remember at one point I was going out with a fellow for for quite a while and my mother was getting very insistent. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.870 Liz Palmer I said, mom, I'm going to dinner. 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:9.470 Liz Palmer I'm not marrying the man and she was, like, totally blown away because if you were going out to someone, then the possibility was there that you're in it, married. 0:31:9.480 --> 0:31:10.450 Liz Palmer And I said absolutely not. 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.330 Liz Palmer I mean, we're just going out for dinner. 0:31:12.340 --> 0:31:13.890 Liz Palmer We're going to a movie. 0:31:13.900 --> 0:31:15.150 Liz Palmer We're going to a concert. 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:16.450 Liz Palmer You know, whatever it is. 0:31:17.140 --> 0:31:29.570 Liz Palmer So I I would say that yes, our our notions of dating and marriage and and as I mentioned, you know, some religious notions were were very much at odds with each other. 0:31:29.580 --> 0:31:36.720 Liz Palmer But you had to respect your parents because they were older and they lived a different through a very different time than we did. 0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:42.440 Liz Palmer Umm, but that didn't mean that I had to follow like as I said with the religious thing. 0:31:42.450 --> 0:31:47.40 Liz Palmer And there were things I saw when I was working in the hospital. 0:31:47.50 --> 0:31:55.660 Liz Palmer And you know things that happened to people as a result of stupid religious stuff like, you know, not being able to have an abortion or something and it. 0:31:55.670 --> 0:31:59.460 Liz Palmer And as I said, that was I would never do that for myself. 0:32:3.800 --> 0:32:4.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:31:59.470 --> 0:32:4.990 Liz Palmer But then I never got myself in that into that position either, so yeah. 0:32:4.900 --> 0:32:9.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that's interesting, because that's a like the way that you see the situation of just going to the movies with someone. 0:32:9.860 --> 0:32:13.470 Philippe Alain Paradis And the way that your parents look at it is so vastly different. 0:32:13.590 --> 0:32:14.60 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.740 Philippe Alain Paradis It's like you're not like marriage is not a thing that like you're going to a movie. 0:32:16.540 --> 0:32:17.910 Liz Palmer Yo, I got I. 0:32:18.340 --> 0:32:20.190 Liz Palmer Yeah, and all the time. 0:32:20.380 --> 0:32:20.520 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:28.240 Liz Palmer I mean, most of my friends during that time, we all, most of us married in in the end. 0:32:30.0 --> 0:32:32.990 Liz Palmer But it wasn't till later and I actually got married. 0:32:33.0 --> 0:32:33.790 Liz Palmer I met my husband. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.290 Liz Palmer I graduated in June. 0:32:35.660 --> 0:32:47.130 Liz Palmer I met my husband the following September and we got married the following June and most of my friends got married after that course and a couple got married. 0:32:47.190 --> 0:32:57.810 Liz Palmer Just sort of at the end of that school year, those four years because it was just too hard to deal with marriage and living together and all that other kind of stuff. 0:32:58.700 --> 0:32:59.130 Liz Palmer A lot. 0:32:59.140 --> 0:33:4.790 Liz Palmer A number of people did live together with their boyfriends, but that again was later on. 0:33:6.390 --> 0:33:16.350 Liz Palmer Ottawa was still a pretty small town in those days and we weren't big city people either, so there was a lot of it was still a little bit of that hanging on. 0:33:17.60 --> 0:33:17.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:25.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And looking back at the 70s, what aspects of Canadian society do you see most out of whack and either fixing? 0:33:25.40 --> 0:33:28.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what were you the most passionate about problems wise? 0:33:30.250 --> 0:33:32.160 Liz Palmer Sorry, I don't really understand that question. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:39.80 Philippe Alain Paradis I'm like for example like it could be like feminism or something like what in Canadian society back then. 0:33:41.930 --> 0:33:47.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel like the strongest about that you felt needed changing like a societal thing? 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.200 Liz Palmer Oh, I see. 0:33:49.710 --> 0:33:49.950 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:33:51.340 --> 0:34:0.460 Liz Palmer While religion was still very, very strong, had a big especially in a small town like like Ottawa was a small town a feminism. 0:34:3.90 --> 0:34:4.450 Liz Palmer Was certainly talked about. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:11.610 Liz Palmer I looked on with a great deal of hmm, you know, do we do? 0:34:11.620 --> 0:34:12.590 Liz Palmer Do we want this or not? 0:34:15.820 --> 0:34:32.170 Liz Palmer I I would think that religion really, when it comes down to it was it was still had a huge hold on and certainly in the early 70s had a huge hold on how people thought about their lives, about how they lived it, umm, how they brought up their children. 0:34:33.330 --> 0:34:37.300 Liz Palmer Ah, what they would stand for and what they wouldn't so. 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:45.670 Liz Palmer Yeah, families at the war in Vietnam also was an issue because we had so many people. 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:55.730 Liz Palmer We we know there were a number of people that came up to Ontario and there were other people that I had met later on in the years that came up because of that. Umm. 0:34:58.130 --> 0:34:59.600 Liz Palmer We didn't have a lot of money. 0:34:59.610 --> 0:35:1.0 Liz Palmer Money was still a big issue. 0:35:1.10 --> 0:35:10.560 Liz Palmer Money was still a really big class issue in those days too, so if you didn't have a lot of money, you didn't travel, you didn't have the fancy clothes. 0:35:10.570 --> 0:35:13.140 Liz Palmer You didn't live in the fancy houses. 0:35:13.150 --> 0:35:21.620 Liz Palmer You, you know, again, as I say, I came from a pretty working class neighborhood, but my parents, you know, they did everything for us kids. 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:30.60 Liz Palmer They they lived and so their children could do, I guess, could do better in their life, right? 0:35:29.260 --> 0:35:30.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm yeah. 0:35:32.370 --> 0:35:33.80 Liz Palmer There wasn't. 0:35:33.90 --> 0:35:39.810 Liz Palmer It's not like now when you know people have kids and they kind of let them go feral and do whatever they want. 0:35:41.150 --> 0:35:43.50 Liz Palmer Your parents, you know, you came home. 0:35:43.60 --> 0:35:44.860 Liz Palmer You had dinner every night together. 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:49.80 Liz Palmer Uh, and that's what I did with we did with our own children. 0:35:49.90 --> 0:35:50.660 Liz Palmer Is that, you know, dinner was important. 0:35:50.670 --> 0:35:54.820 Liz Palmer You had to come home, have dinner, unless you had a hockey practice or something like that. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:56.910 Liz Palmer But family came first. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:2.0 Liz Palmer Your work and then your schooling, etcetera came was ever. 0:36:3.470 --> 0:36:4.780 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues? 0:36:4.790 --> 0:36:6.840 Philippe Alain Paradis It sounds like you mentioned religion a few times. 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:15.840 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:36:6.850 --> 0:36:19.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues that like to at the time you were, like, frustrated about it like you like, like like you mentioned for example, like religion a few times like you saw someone at like in that, like clearly needed an abortion. 0:36:19.570 --> 0:36:23.410 Philippe Alain Paradis So like that sounds like that like struck a chord with you a little bit like, yeah. 0:36:22.90 --> 0:36:23.980 Liz Palmer Ohh definitely that was a it was. 0:36:23.990 --> 0:36:32.400 Liz Palmer It was a very big deal for me and because my parents were such staunch Catholics, that became an issue in our family, between myself and my mom. 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:40.650 Liz Palmer My dad was pretty easy going because my excuse me, my dad was originally Lutheran but became Catholic. 0:36:40.660 --> 0:36:44.30 Liz Palmer So he could marry my mother because she wouldn't marry him if he wasn't cast like so. 0:36:44.40 --> 0:36:51.20 Liz Palmer That's how strong her religion was, and we were brought up very strictly in the Catholic faith and we didn't know any better. 0:36:51.30 --> 0:36:53.540 Liz Palmer And we, you know, we actually had a very good life. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:55.150 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:36:56.370 --> 0:36:58.290 Liz Palmer And you know, very safe. 0:36:58.720 --> 0:37:2.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, like I mean, you know, we were never in any danger. 0:37:2.640 --> 0:37:3.840 Liz Palmer We always had enough food. 0:37:5.290 --> 0:37:14.920 Liz Palmer I mean, when you look at what people are going through today, we actually even though we didn't have a lot, we were always you know, well looked after well fed and well loved. 0:37:15.720 --> 0:37:27.120 Liz Palmer But as we got as my sister and I both got older and even my brothers, because they are quite a bit younger than we are, we all left the church behind, which was really interesting. 0:37:27.170 --> 0:37:28.20 Liz Palmer None of us. 0:37:29.290 --> 0:37:32.970 Liz Palmer Well, my kids, I took my kids to church. 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.300 Liz Palmer They went to Sunday school, but my husband's not Catholic. 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:39.970 Liz Palmer My mother in law just about died when she had to go to a Catholic Church. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.940 Liz Palmer We got married. 0:37:40.950 --> 0:37:44.510 Liz Palmer That was hard for her, but you know, it was those. 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:45.850 Liz Palmer So those religious things? 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:48.580 Liz Palmer Protestant, Catholic, whatever were very, very strong. 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:57.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:37:51.190 --> 0:37:59.30 Liz Palmer But I guess that that was probably the biggest, the biggest thing, I think until until we got older and things. 0:38:1.520 --> 0:38:2.240 Philippe Alain Paradis Mellow down. 0:38:1.140 --> 0:38:2.770 Liz Palmer Sort of resolved, but again my. 0:38:2.840 --> 0:38:4.340 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:38:5.0 --> 0:38:5.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:5.640 --> 0:38:9.270 Liz Palmer And then the church changed in the 70s and the late in the 80s too. 0:38:9.280 --> 0:38:11.620 Liz Palmer So that was a whole other big issue then. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:21.460 Philippe Alain Paradis What did you see back then as the biggest form of injustice in Canadian society, like the things that you found the most unfair? 0:38:23.70 --> 0:38:23.480 Liz Palmer Hmm. 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:30.850 Liz Palmer In the at that time, probably women's rights. UM. 0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:39.370 Liz Palmer There wasn't much I worked one summer up north in Moosonee. 0:38:39.380 --> 0:38:55.490 Liz Palmer I worked at A and indigenous hospital at the time and that was the first time I really saw the differences between living, you know, as a white person living South and then going up to an area cause I worked the whole summer up there. 0:38:55.500 --> 0:38:56.330 Liz Palmer I would take. 0:38:56.660 --> 0:39:4.330 Liz Palmer I would take patients back up north to different we they fly them up north and the nurse would have to go with them. 0:39:4.340 --> 0:39:5.500 Liz Palmer I was going as the nurse. 0:39:6.570 --> 0:39:12.270 Liz Palmer That was the first time I really saw those types of injustice, and that was that was a huge deal at the time, I remember. 0:39:13.550 --> 0:39:16.70 Liz Palmer Umm but. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:25.660 Liz Palmer Probably I, you know, I wasn't terribly aware in those days of those things to be quite honest, it was. 0:39:25.390 --> 0:39:31.340 Philippe Alain Paradis But it was clear that something had to had to be done about it, and it's. 0:39:30.490 --> 0:39:32.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, the women's rights were a big deal. 0:39:36.670 --> 0:39:43.510 Liz Palmer Medical medical advances that were available to some people and not to others available in some areas but not in others. 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:55.180 Liz Palmer There were, you know, when I was up north, there were women used to come quote unquote S to musani to Moose factory to have their babies. 0:39:55.190 --> 0:40:2.390 Liz Palmer And there were a lot of babies born with very awful birth defects that most of them didn't live. 0:40:4.450 --> 0:40:10.820 Liz Palmer So there was a lot of that that we saw and they're just because they lived in small places like small villages and stuff up north. 0:40:10.870 --> 0:40:11.910 Liz Palmer He had to come that far. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:25.250 Liz Palmer So, but you know, it was it was just a very different life, and that was the first exposure I got to, you know, women that would have 10 or 12 children and and with the child didn't live, they were OK with that because the kid was. 0:40:32.220 --> 0:40:32.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:25.260 --> 0:40:36.660 Liz Palmer So I mean, there was no way the child could live because they were so badly are they had so many health issues that they wouldn't live outside of an incubator, right. 0:40:37.410 --> 0:40:37.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:40:37.260 --> 0:40:40.890 Liz Palmer So those those children died within a few days, and the mother was sad. 0:40:40.900 --> 0:40:44.870 Liz Palmer But it was an acceptance which you would never get here. 0:40:44.940 --> 0:40:45.640 Liz Palmer Never get here. 0:40:45.380 --> 0:40:47.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that sounds quite jarring to witness. 0:40:48.170 --> 0:40:50.70 Liz Palmer Umm I was and and then. 0:40:47.700 --> 0:40:52.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And that's yeah, like to see that that that was like normal sort of there was. 0:40:52.590 --> 0:40:53.280 Liz Palmer Exactly. 0:40:53.490 --> 0:40:55.880 Liz Palmer It was, yes, more normalized than it should have been. 0:40:56.750 --> 0:40:56.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:1.590 Liz Palmer But then the children were born with birth defects that you wouldn't see here because of the inbreeding. 0:41:1.600 --> 0:41:2.250 Liz Palmer That a lot of it. 0:41:2.300 --> 0:41:4.70 Liz Palmer That's how it was explained to me at the time. 0:41:5.170 --> 0:41:10.680 Liz Palmer But I think now it was also things like mercury in the water pesticide use. 0:41:10.720 --> 0:41:12.300 Liz Palmer There's probably all that kind of stuff. 0:41:12.310 --> 0:41:14.800 Liz Palmer That was all in there, but we didn't know about it in those times. 0:41:15.460 --> 0:41:15.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:41:15.700 --> 0:41:23.540 Philippe Alain Paradis So you saw some pretty pretty like bad issues on the reservations that that's that that's quite a good example of injustice. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That's that's tragic. 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:30.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:41:24.790 --> 0:41:36.820 Liz Palmer Well, that was the reserves were very also, you know you go up there, you land, there's a nursing station and the house where the doctor lived or the nurse lived at the social worker and the teachers lived. 0:41:36.830 --> 0:41:41.180 Liz Palmer And then then there's where the actual people in the village live. 0:41:42.660 --> 0:41:42.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:41:41.270 --> 0:41:50.70 Liz Palmer Very different and my husband will actually was a was a teacher for, I think two years in a northern community as well on the reserve. 0:41:50.80 --> 0:41:53.680 Liz Palmer And you know, his stories were very similar to that as well. 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:1.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:42:2.0 --> 0:42:4.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing any of the any of these issues at all. 0:42:5.900 --> 0:42:8.830 Liz Palmer Ohh, probably not, but honestly I wasn't. 0:42:8.840 --> 0:42:11.200 Liz Palmer I really wasn't into politics at that point. 0:42:11.180 --> 0:42:11.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:42:11.990 --> 0:42:18.350 Liz Palmer I was my family was liberal and I used to work at different. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:19.30 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:19.100 --> 0:42:19.420 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:21.660 --> 0:42:25.700 Liz Palmer Work at, you know, different times when they were elections and stuff. 0:42:26.620 --> 0:42:27.590 Liz Palmer I was part of that. 0:42:27.740 --> 0:42:35.160 Liz Palmer I used to go to meetings, political meetings and stuff like that, but it was never John Turner was who I worked for. 0:42:35.170 --> 0:42:41.280 Liz Palmer I think when one year, but he lost out to Pierre Trudeau senior, so that was different. 0:42:41.690 --> 0:42:44.30 Liz Palmer But anyway, so it was the again. 0:42:46.0 --> 0:42:47.670 Liz Palmer Different times, you know. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:48.550 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:42:48.620 --> 0:42:52.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there like an assumption that, like the government wasn't doing things correctly back then? 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:53.930 Liz Palmer Oh, no. 0:42:52.860 --> 0:42:54.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing these things, no. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.280 Philippe Alain Paradis OK. 0:42:53.940 --> 0:42:58.680 Liz Palmer No, no, no, no government could do no wrong in those days in our household anyway. 0:43:2.550 --> 0:43:20.280 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, so for the this next section, cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you agree with that statement? 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:25.470 Liz Palmer Ohh, absolutely absolutely yes. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.420 Liz Palmer Yes, with the pill you could do whatever you want and you didn't have to worry about getting pregnant, right? 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:33.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis That must have been a huge change. 0:43:37.10 --> 0:43:38.870 Liz Palmer Yes and no. 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:39.120 Philippe Alain Paradis Compared to. 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.270 Liz Palmer I mean it compared to before, probably, yeah. 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.70 Liz Palmer But the pill had always been available. 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:50.120 Liz Palmer I mean, even though I went to a Catholic girls school, we all knew about the pill. 0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:51.400 Liz Palmer My mother was very good about. 0:43:53.940 --> 0:43:58.150 Liz Palmer Uh, you know, teaching us the sex education schools didn't do it in those days. 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:5.310 Liz Palmer Like, I mean, your parents did it, but my parents were very open about things and they were very good about that. 0:44:5.320 --> 0:44:9.190 Liz Palmer So we we knew about those things, but of course we were allowed to take it right. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:9.200 --> 0:44:13.460 Liz Palmer And of course, there was no sex before marriage and all that other kind of stuff. 0:44:13.470 --> 0:44:15.120 Liz Palmer But that all changed. 0:44:17.130 --> 0:44:20.790 Philippe Alain Paradis And what did dating look like at Yowa during the 1970s? 0:44:22.890 --> 0:44:23.820 Liz Palmer But how do you mean? 0:44:23.830 --> 0:44:26.400 Liz Palmer Just ohh guys got. 0:44:23.500 --> 0:44:27.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, I'm just like, yeah, very generally speaking. 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:29.320 Liz Palmer Oh, just guys. 0:44:29.330 --> 0:44:30.110 Liz Palmer Ask girls out. 0:44:31.300 --> 0:44:31.980 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:44:33.790 --> 0:44:35.320 Liz Palmer You would go for coffee. 0:44:35.330 --> 0:44:37.700 Liz Palmer There were the coffee go to movies. 0:44:43.270 --> 0:44:43.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:39.350 --> 0:44:44.660 Liz Palmer Nobody had any money, so nobody really went out to dinner unless you went out with someone who was older. 0:44:45.110 --> 0:44:49.220 Liz Palmer So you would go to concerts, you'd go to movies, you'd go to parties together. 0:44:49.670 --> 0:44:50.720 Liz Palmer You know, that kind of thing? 0:44:51.890 --> 0:44:52.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Just. 0:44:50.810 --> 0:44:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, pretty normal stuff, yeah. 0:44:53.990 --> 0:44:54.300 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:54.310 --> 0:44:54.830 Philippe Alain Paradis That reminds me. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what you were saying earlier? 0:44:58.300 --> 0:44:59.180 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah. 0:44:55.980 --> 0:44:59.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you do a lot of really casual things and just like normal. 0:45:0.980 --> 0:45:1.220 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:3.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Hang out and yeah, and then your parents had their views on it. 0:45:5.170 --> 0:45:5.740 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:45:4.640 --> 0:45:6.590 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:45:5.790 --> 0:45:6.840 Liz Palmer What is this father do? 0:45:6.850 --> 0:45:7.860 Liz Palmer And where does he go to church? 0:45:7.960 --> 0:45:9.240 Liz Palmer I've no clue. 0:45:8.870 --> 0:45:9.920 Philippe Alain Paradis I haven't even met him. 0:45:9.250 --> 0:45:10.20 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:45:9.970 --> 0:45:10.620 Philippe Alain Paradis I don't know his name. 0:45:10.230 --> 0:45:13.870 Liz Palmer I will he be live in Montreal? 0:45:14.20 --> 0:45:15.850 Liz Palmer Because a lot of people came to Ottawa. 0:45:15.860 --> 0:45:17.950 Liz Palmer You from a lot of different places, right? 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:18.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:31.120 Liz Palmer So because they had programs there that didn't have any other places, so there were lots of and and the other thing too is that it was thought that was the easy to get into Ottawa because they always were looking for students. 0:45:32.20 --> 0:45:32.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:45:32.90 --> 0:45:37.310 Liz Palmer But then of course, my sister went to Saint Paths, which was a separate college. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.300 Liz Palmer But then became part of Carlton. 0:45:40.90 --> 0:45:47.90 Liz Palmer But then, of course, he always disparage Carlton because they were just the, you know, anybody could get into Carlton. 0:45:49.540 --> 0:45:50.500 Liz Palmer So yes. 0:45:50.190 --> 0:45:50.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:45:50.690 --> 0:45:59.180 Philippe Alain Paradis And was it ever look down on, like just dating casually, like amongst just just the younger people, just the uottawa? 0:45:59.710 --> 0:46:1.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Or was it just totally normal? 0:46:1.900 --> 0:46:4.30 Liz Palmer Ohh it's not you mean what do you mean dating? 0:46:7.880 --> 0:46:8.120 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:46:4.630 --> 0:46:8.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, yeah, like some parents might not approve of, like their kids going around and dating it. 0:46:8.480 --> 0:46:8.860 Philippe Alain Paradis You Ottawa. 0:46:8.870 --> 0:46:10.320 Philippe Alain Paradis But amongst students, was it. 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:11.390 Liz Palmer Oh, it's not. 0:46:10.330 --> 0:46:12.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it frowned upon at all? No. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:12.930 Liz Palmer No, no, not at all. 0:46:12.940 --> 0:46:13.680 Liz Palmer Day dating was. 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:16.360 Liz Palmer Well, that's how you got to meet people, right? 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 0:46:18.170 --> 0:46:19.490 Philippe Alain Paradis Like just relationships and stuff. 0:46:19.500 --> 0:46:21.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That was just it was just normal. 0:46:21.720 --> 0:46:22.450 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:46:29.550 --> 0:46:29.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:46:22.460 --> 0:46:31.760 Liz Palmer I mean, I think my sister in law put it when you went to university to to earn your Mrs right and your misses like to find your husband, right? 0:46:31.770 --> 0:46:32.300 Liz Palmer Your Mrs? 0:46:32.270 --> 0:46:33.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. Yeah. 0:46:41.380 --> 0:46:41.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:44.670 Liz Palmer Well, that's, I guess that was kind of what it was like, but I mean, no, everybody just dated and and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't, you know. 0:46:47.20 --> 0:46:49.610 Philippe Alain Paradis How did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:46:49.620 --> 0:46:50.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there any like? 0:46:50.820 --> 0:46:56.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Did they ever really like challenge those notions or discuss it or yeah. 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:4.850 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, I think a lot of younger women because of the pill and because of the changing morays of the time. 0:47:4.860 --> 0:47:12.950 Liz Palmer You could you could have a relationship with someone you could move in, but you didn't have to get married, and that was a huge deal for a lot of girls. 0:47:13.20 --> 0:47:15.880 Liz Palmer And a lot of women guys, of course, were happy with that. 0:47:18.350 --> 0:47:18.530 Liz Palmer But. 0:47:21.460 --> 0:47:28.630 Liz Palmer I think in the end they're probably more after we graduated that happened, I would find. 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:33.580 Liz Palmer But because when we were at school, nobody, as I said, nobody had any money like so. 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:37.150 Liz Palmer Certainly my friends in my class, most people didn't have a lot of money. 0:47:37.460 --> 0:47:45.150 Liz Palmer So, you know, we were living at home or we were, you know, living on campus or you were living in an apartment with two or three other people. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Liz Palmer So you were scrimping and saving, so it was. 0:47:50.700 --> 0:47:51.990 Liz Palmer It was kind of different. 0:47:54.660 --> 0:48:2.310 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess the the fact that you didn't have to get married anymore was the that that was a huge deal. 0:48:3.70 --> 0:48:3.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:2.960 --> 0:48:5.680 Liz Palmer That was a huge deal at the time and I think that made a difference. 0:48:6.600 --> 0:48:9.880 Liz Palmer Umm, because you didn't really need to. 0:48:12.820 --> 0:48:20.220 Liz Palmer Uh, you didn't really need to worry about getting married, cause all of a sudden you didn't really need to get married. 0:48:21.550 --> 0:48:26.350 Liz Palmer But still, having kids without a partner, I always felt was very difficult cause. 0:48:28.390 --> 0:48:29.370 Liz Palmer Kids are a lot of work. 0:48:30.270 --> 0:48:30.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:33.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:32.490 --> 0:48:36.690 Liz Palmer I take a lot out of the you need two people to do that or or a village to raise a child, yes. 0:48:35.260 --> 0:48:38.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, for sure. Right. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:41.930 Philippe Alain Paradis So like just the notion of like, do you like having to get married and stuff? 0:48:41.940 --> 0:48:46.730 Philippe Alain Paradis It was looked at like more practically, if at times by younger people, yeah. 0:48:45.750 --> 0:48:47.170 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was it. 0:48:47.210 --> 0:48:49.660 Liz Palmer There was no notion of having to get married anymore. 0:48:49.470 --> 0:48:49.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:49.670 --> 0:48:50.280 Liz Palmer You got married. 0:48:50.290 --> 0:48:54.110 Liz Palmer If you wanted to, and if you wanted, if you wanted to, that was great. 0:48:56.370 --> 0:48:56.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.380 Liz Palmer But if you didn't want to, you didn't have to, which was fine too, yeah. 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:57.690 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:48:58.610 --> 0:48:59.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:59.670 --> 0:49:15.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And just before I move on to the last section, do you like, do you think that like just regarding all of these things and and just general attitudes, behavior and stuff on campus, do you think like movies and music and stuff influence like people's behavior a lot? 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like maybe like rock becoming popular a little later. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.870 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:49:18.810 --> 0:49:25.250 Philippe Alain Paradis And did you ever see like the impact of like media on people and their behavior on campus at all? 0:49:26.670 --> 0:49:27.580 Philippe Alain Paradis It's gonna make but. 0:49:33.390 --> 0:49:33.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:49:30.330 --> 0:49:34.120 Liz Palmer Yes, music in particular, music. 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:34.940 Liz Palmer Governed. 0:49:35.110 --> 0:49:35.320 Liz Palmer Who? 0:49:35.330 --> 0:49:37.400 Liz Palmer Your friends were where you went. 0:49:37.460 --> 0:49:44.370 Liz Palmer The concerts you went to, the books you read, the group she belonged to. Uh. 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.270 Liz Palmer Disco was part of it, but then I was far more at. 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.670 Liz Palmer At one point I was far more into umm. 0:49:58.620 --> 0:50:0.420 Liz Palmer It's sort of the coffee house scene. 0:50:1.90 --> 0:50:1.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:50:2.910 --> 0:50:10.620 Liz Palmer And all those, all that kind of sort of stuff, we were far more hip than the people that went to do disco. 0:50:12.470 --> 0:50:14.190 Liz Palmer We thought we were like, put it that way. 0:50:15.940 --> 0:50:17.190 Liz Palmer We were that we were smarter. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.910 Liz Palmer You know, we've always thought we were better than the rest, but I mean, we were just stupid. 0:50:21.300 --> 0:50:23.860 Liz Palmer But umm, it was. 0:50:25.540 --> 0:50:32.540 Liz Palmer I think it really led into how you lived, who, where you went, who your friends were. 0:50:40.670 --> 0:50:41.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Wow. 0:50:33.830 --> 0:50:42.910 Liz Palmer As I said, the books you read the the opinions you held and who and in the end who you ended up voting for too, it was, you know, so it it. 0:50:42.980 --> 0:50:43.330 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:50:43.340 --> 0:51:8.20 Liz Palmer Because you know, if it was, it's as I got older, I got more and more into the into the political stuff because you you always, you know, sort of became aware as time went on as of how who you voted for in the election would affect how much money was going to education or healthcare or you know the what was going into you know whatever was affecting the world at that time but umm. 0:51:10.90 --> 0:51:14.360 Liz Palmer Yeah, I think I think there was certainly a correlation in there for sure. 0:51:14.580 --> 0:51:20.480 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that that's interesting because you named basically every facet of like what makes someone and like an individual, right? 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:20.860 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:23.540 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:20.490 --> 0:51:28.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Like their opinions, they're the people they hung around with that then all of that, like music, had a pardon. Hmm. 0:51:25.750 --> 0:51:40.0 Liz Palmer And and movies were a big thing, too, because we got very snotty about about watching French films, and I'm I learned, I I I started to smoke when I was at university, cause everybody smoked and it ought to be you. 0:51:40.10 --> 0:51:40.490 Liz Palmer You smoke? 0:51:40.500 --> 0:51:42.180 Liz Palmer God was in Japan, right? 0:51:42.190 --> 0:51:43.220 Liz Palmer The French cigarettes. 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:44.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.960 Liz Palmer So anything French became very ohkura very. 0:51:51.220 --> 0:51:54.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right trends and stuff, but that could all that. Mm-hmm. 0:51:49.910 --> 0:51:55.420 Liz Palmer In very if you want trend trend, yes, trendy. 0:51:55.490 --> 0:51:59.320 Liz Palmer And if you wanted to be, quote unquote, one of the cool kids, this is what you did. 0:51:59.330 --> 0:52:1.860 Liz Palmer So you wore certain clothing you. 0:52:3.900 --> 0:52:6.810 Liz Palmer You went to certain places, you went to certain clubs, you. 0:52:7.670 --> 0:52:10.700 Liz Palmer Uh, you spoke French or you didn't? 0:52:10.710 --> 0:52:12.840 Liz Palmer Or or you pretended you did. 0:52:12.850 --> 0:52:18.640 Liz Palmer Or, you know, whatever it it did affect your it did affect your life at one point. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:19.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:19.250 --> 0:52:21.770 Liz Palmer So yeah, I would say definitely. 0:52:21.780 --> 0:52:26.670 Liz Palmer And and movies from the states, I mean, you had you had Deer Hunter you had. 0:52:28.350 --> 0:52:28.970 Liz Palmer Taxi. 0:52:33.820 --> 0:52:34.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:28.980 --> 0:52:37.40 Liz Palmer You had all those other movies that came in to being at like I Love films, so that was something that I really like to to to do. 0:52:37.490 --> 0:52:41.620 Liz Palmer But in a place like Ottawa, there weren't a lot of, you know. 0:52:43.430 --> 0:52:46.860 Liz Palmer Films that came out that that were anything. 0:52:46.930 --> 0:52:48.450 Liz Palmer The what was it the? 0:52:51.70 --> 0:52:57.210 Liz Palmer And I forget that the theater on Queen Street Bank and Queen forget. 0:52:57.220 --> 0:52:58.300 Liz Palmer I think it was called the realtor. 0:52:58.370 --> 0:52:59.210 Liz Palmer No, it wasn't that. 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:1.50 Liz Palmer Forget what it was called anyway. 0:53:1.660 --> 0:53:4.30 Liz Palmer They would have foreign films come in. 0:53:4.40 --> 0:53:8.760 Liz Palmer So you'd have foreign film festivals or you go to Montreal to see movies and stuff like that too. 0:53:9.920 --> 0:53:10.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.20 Philippe Alain Paradis So this final section is totally optional. 0:53:14.580 --> 0:53:21.590 Philippe Alain Paradis There's a disclaimer that comes with it because it it's a it's a very, very sensitive topic, so if I'll read this claimer and you just have to say yes or no. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.300 Philippe Alain Paradis And if you say no, I won't ask any questions and that'll be it for the interview. 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:26.160 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:53:26.80 --> 0:53:32.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, OK, so this glimmer is the following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:53:32.580 --> 0:53:39.90 Philippe Alain Paradis We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:53:39.300 --> 0:53:43.470 Philippe Alain Paradis You may choose to not answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:53:45.170 --> 0:53:47.650 Liz Palmer I'm fine with that. Yep. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:53.250 Philippe Alain Paradis OK, so many universities today have been, uh, forced to police sexual harassment. 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.640 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:54:1.450 --> 0:54:2.530 Liz Palmer I don't think they did anything. 0:54:4.980 --> 0:54:5.500 Liz Palmer Why would they? 0:54:6.650 --> 0:54:8.960 Philippe Alain Paradis Did did you see it as much of an issue back then? 0:54:8.970 --> 0:54:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, were there rumors circulating or like, people getting caught? 0:54:12.500 --> 0:54:12.850 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:54:12.730 --> 0:54:13.610 Liz Palmer No, no. 0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:17.860 Philippe Alain Paradis So it must have been like pretty like hush hush if yeah. 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 Liz Palmer If it happened, we didn't hear about it. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm wow. 0:54:20.500 --> 0:54:21.780 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way, yeah. 0:54:21.80 --> 0:54:26.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, because I like I have seen stats and so I was like, I have seen people seen stats and stuff and it seems that it was it was quite it. 0:54:26.900 --> 0:54:29.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It turns out like now we know that it was quite prevalent. 0:54:29.490 --> 0:54:33.310 Philippe Alain Paradis So it's interesting to hear that it was kept like you know. 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:36.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:38.270 Liz Palmer I think you have to look at the times from the perspective of the times. 0:54:39.770 --> 0:54:43.520 Liz Palmer Nowadays, women get all upset because the guy whistles at them on the street. 0:54:44.10 --> 0:54:44.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:45.340 --> 0:54:46.650 Liz Palmer No big deal in my day. 0:54:47.240 --> 0:54:47.820 Liz Palmer So what? 0:54:48.430 --> 0:54:49.70 Philippe Alain Paradis If you. 0:54:48.260 --> 0:54:50.510 Liz Palmer So good, I appreciate what you looked like. 0:54:50.990 --> 0:54:51.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:50.580 --> 0:54:54.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays someone will go hearing off to the police saying, Oh my God, he whistled at me. 0:54:56.530 --> 0:54:56.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:54:56.310 --> 0:54:58.690 Liz Palmer That's harassment in some women's. 0:55:0.560 --> 0:55:4.490 Liz Palmer You know and and fair enough if they feel harassed and that then that's it. 0:55:4.840 --> 0:55:6.440 Liz Palmer But in our day, that was not a deal. 0:55:7.220 --> 0:55:9.790 Philippe Alain Paradis If you applied, I'll put A twist on the question. 0:55:9.990 --> 0:55:10.210 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:55:16.90 --> 0:55:18.100 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, they're probably was there. 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.80 Liz Palmer It was there. 0:55:9.960 --> 0:55:19.590 Philippe Alain Paradis If you apply just just for fun, if you applied today's standards of sexual harassment, what would it would have been bad, yeah. 0:55:22.300 --> 0:55:22.570 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:55:19.150 --> 0:55:28.20 Liz Palmer I would I remember being on the bus and a man sitting really close to me like and pushing me like coming right close to me. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.130 Liz Palmer That's harassment as far as I'm concerned. 0:55:30.590 --> 0:55:34.900 Liz Palmer I got up, stepped on his foot, got off the bus. 0:55:36.390 --> 0:55:38.730 Liz Palmer So never reported it. 0:55:39.850 --> 0:55:41.700 Liz Palmer That happened all the time. 0:55:42.370 --> 0:55:42.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:55:41.950 --> 0:55:43.390 Liz Palmer If you were young woman, yeah. 0:55:44.940 --> 0:55:45.210 Liz Palmer I'm. 0:55:45.220 --> 0:55:46.770 Liz Palmer I'm not gonna say all the time, but it happened. 0:55:47.190 --> 0:55:47.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:48.330 Liz Palmer It happened a lot. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.980 Liz Palmer There were, but As for me, I was never. 0:55:56.170 --> 0:56:0.550 Liz Palmer I was never a victim of that type of harassment. 0:56:0.560 --> 0:56:1.430 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:56:1.440 --> 0:56:5.470 Liz Palmer Like anything that that these days, women would complain about. 0:56:5.480 --> 0:56:9.920 Liz Palmer I mean, yeah, some guy would punch your pinch your bottom or something. 0:56:12.420 --> 0:56:13.370 Liz Palmer So no big deal. 0:56:14.170 --> 0:56:14.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:13.780 --> 0:56:18.830 Liz Palmer I mean, that's just, that's just what happened and that's how it was thought of in those days. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:19.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays it's not. 0:56:19.980 --> 0:56:20.730 Liz Palmer It's different. 0:56:20.860 --> 0:56:21.180 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:27.870 Liz Palmer My daughter, would you know, she she would probably, Umm, report somebody who did that. 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.350 Liz Palmer But in my day it was part of the culture. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.950 Liz Palmer If you can put it that way, I mean, I'm not saying it's right. 0:56:32.300 --> 0:56:34.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm it, yeah. 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:36.880 Liz Palmer I'm just saying that that's that's the way it was. 0:56:36.890 --> 0:56:41.560 Liz Palmer That's that's what guys did and I grew up in working class neighborhoods. 0:56:42.770 --> 0:56:44.250 Philippe Alain Paradis There's normalized totally. 0:56:41.570 --> 0:56:45.670 Liz Palmer So there was it was exactly. 0:56:47.570 --> 0:56:47.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:45.740 --> 0:56:48.500 Liz Palmer That's a very good way to put it was normalized, so yeah. 0:56:47.950 --> 0:56:50.200 Philippe Alain Paradis So it wasn't even viewed as a problem that needed fixing. 0:56:50.210 --> 0:56:52.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just how? Wow. 0:56:52.30 --> 0:56:54.300 Liz Palmer It's just the way some men are stupid. 0:56:54.770 --> 0:56:55.660 Liz Palmer That's the way they are. 0:56:55.830 --> 0:56:56.440 Liz Palmer You didn't. 0:56:56.450 --> 0:57:2.600 Liz Palmer You didn't have anything to do with those guys, but you know my my mom used to make it very clear. 0:57:2.610 --> 0:57:3.440 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:3.570 --> 0:57:4.290 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:5.350 --> 0:57:5.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:57:6.60 --> 0:57:6.300 Liz Palmer OK. 0:57:5.930 --> 0:57:11.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And our yeah, our generation is interested in a like in a free love movement. 0:57:11.670 --> 0:57:17.380 Philippe Alain Paradis What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? 0:57:17.390 --> 0:57:21.640 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it viewed negatively accepted or like literally encouraged? 0:57:21.650 --> 0:57:23.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Or like amongst the. 0:57:22.730 --> 0:57:23.700 Liz Palmer Was accepted. 0:57:24.50 --> 0:57:24.940 Liz Palmer It was accepted. 0:57:24.950 --> 0:57:29.0 Liz Palmer I meet most of the girls in in my class had boyfriends and. 0:57:31.230 --> 0:57:31.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:31.170 --> 0:57:32.480 Liz Palmer They all went to bed together. 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:33.40 Liz Palmer I mean, it was. 0:57:34.550 --> 0:57:34.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:33.50 --> 0:57:35.260 Liz Palmer No, it was accepted. 0:57:35.270 --> 0:57:35.600 Liz Palmer It was. 0:57:35.610 --> 0:57:38.680 Liz Palmer It was your choice if you wanted to, umm. 0:57:42.890 --> 0:57:43.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:39.330 --> 0:57:50.660 Liz Palmer As it as of whether they were pressured, I don't know what was never brought up as as an issue like I never knew anybody who was upset by the fact that some guy had pressured. 0:57:50.710 --> 0:57:52.840 Liz Palmer I mean, there were guys that were stupid enough to. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:53.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:54.830 --> 0:57:56.720 Liz Palmer Think that you know you didn't talk to each other. 0:57:56.730 --> 0:57:57.420 Liz Palmer There was one guy. 0:57:58.810 --> 0:58:1.370 Liz Palmer He was in law and he was a football player. 0:58:2.410 --> 0:58:7.520 Liz Palmer He was going out with a girl in my class and he called me up and asked me out on a date and I said ohh great and I. 0:58:7.530 --> 0:58:9.420 Liz Palmer But aren't you going out with so and so's? 0:58:9.430 --> 0:58:11.340 Liz Palmer Ohh no, no, no, no, that's all over. 0:58:12.870 --> 0:58:12.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:11.690 --> 0:58:18.330 Liz Palmer So I find out later because no one's talking to me in my class, that she found out that he was going out. 0:58:18.340 --> 0:58:22.810 Liz Palmer He went out with me and I said, well, he told me that you two would split up. 0:58:22.890 --> 0:58:23.550 Liz Palmer We haven't. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:24.710 Liz Palmer I didn't know that. 0:58:25.180 --> 0:58:28.590 Liz Palmer Well, that was the end of that from both sides. 0:58:29.300 --> 0:58:38.250 Liz Palmer But I mean so there was always that kind of stuff that was going on, but he was a I mean we only ever got to the point of going out for a meal or something. 0:58:38.260 --> 0:58:42.270 Liz Palmer And then I'm sure he he wanted to take a further, but there was no. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.370 Liz Palmer But then my friend found out. 0:58:46.940 --> 0:58:47.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:45.380 --> 0:58:48.750 Liz Palmer And then, of course, then the whole class just turned on him, and that was that. 0:58:48.820 --> 0:58:49.590 Liz Palmer But I mean there. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.860 Liz Palmer So that kind of thing happened. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.20 Liz Palmer But that's just the kind of thing that happened to me. 0:58:59.100 --> 0:59:0.240 Philippe Alain Paradis That was your experience. 0:59:0.250 --> 0:59:0.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:54.30 --> 0:59:1.50 Liz Palmer There might have been other things that happened to other women, but I don't know of any of them. Yeah. 0:59:1.70 --> 0:59:8.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And and just casual relationships like that, like they there was, there wasn't much judgment going around regarding that type of thing. 0:59:8.310 --> 0:59:9.40 Liz Palmer Oh no mate. 0:59:8.440 --> 0:59:13.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Like if a woman went with a lot of guys like it wasn't as or, you know, not not to your knowledge. 0:59:13.130 --> 0:59:15.91 Liz Palmer Well, I have to say I i.e. 0:59:15.870 --> 0:59:20.380 Liz Palmer My sister was going out with somebody and their first boyfriend. 0:59:20.390 --> 0:59:21.660 Liz Palmer She's still married to him. 0:59:21.750 --> 0:59:22.890 Liz Palmer 50 some odd years later. 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:30.160 Liz Palmer And he used to say to me, well, you know, you should get a boyfriend. 0:59:30.170 --> 0:59:31.860 Liz Palmer And I said, well, why would I want a boyfriend? 0:59:31.870 --> 0:59:33.340 Liz Palmer I'm meeting all these nice men. 0:59:34.310 --> 0:59:36.970 Liz Palmer We're going out to concerts and I mean nothing ever happened. 0:59:37.810 --> 0:59:39.660 Liz Palmer Uh, but I just didn't find. 0:59:43.830 --> 0:59:44.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:59:39.670 --> 0:59:45.300 Liz Palmer You know, there was just nobody I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with at that point, and that was so, so. 0:59:45.310 --> 0:59:49.740 Liz Palmer But he would, you know, that was from his perspective is that you should have one guy and only go up with one guy. 0:59:49.750 --> 0:59:53.580 Liz Palmer Well, I didn't feel that necessity and I didn't hadn't met the right person. 0:59:53.590 --> 0:59:55.840 Liz Palmer So, so that was different so. 0:59:59.130 --> 1:0:3.300 Liz Palmer But most of the most of my good friends, we all dated lots of different people. 1:0:3.670 --> 1:0:5.860 Liz Palmer We didn't sleep with them, but we dated them. 1:0:6.390 --> 1:0:6.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:6.30 --> 1:0:8.440 Liz Palmer Some of them may have slept with them, but I, you know, I didn't. 1:0:9.300 --> 1:0:9.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:9.590 --> 1:0:10.820 Liz Palmer So that was just me. 1:0:10.870 --> 1:0:14.680 Liz Palmer But then the other thing is is I lived at home, so there was no. 1:0:14.810 --> 1:0:18.380 Liz Palmer That was another big, huge problem for a lot of guys, too. 1:0:19.220 --> 1:0:20.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:0:20.990 --> 1:0:25.770 Philippe Alain Paradis And I imagine what did members of your parents generation to worry about premarital sex a lot. 1:0:26.180 --> 1:0:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Ohh. 1:0:26.110 --> 1:0:27.980 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, they were terrified of it. 1:0:26.410 --> 1:0:28.900 Philippe Alain Paradis Like. Yeah. Yeah. 1:0:28.30 --> 1:0:29.360 Liz Palmer Absolutely terrified of it, yes. 1:0:31.30 --> 1:0:31.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 1:0:31.730 --> 1:0:35.720 Philippe Alain Paradis So like, it sounds like amongst the younger people, it just wasn't much of a thought. 1:0:40.920 --> 1:0:42.170 Liz Palmer Most of, yeah. 1:0:35.730 --> 1:0:42.860 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just normal and OK and but the older crowd that was it was like not there was tension there probably. Umm. 1:0:42.260 --> 1:0:47.290 Liz Palmer Most of our parents felt that it was, you know, premarital sex was just not cause. 1:0:47.360 --> 1:0:53.330 Liz Palmer Most of my friends were Catholic or came from religious or Protestant Jewish families. 1:0:53.750 --> 1:0:56.420 Liz Palmer So you didn't even talk about premarital sex. 1:0:56.430 --> 1:1:5.560 Liz Palmer But but in our generation like that, I mean, I know there were girls that that slept around, but it was no big deal. 1:1:5.570 --> 1:1:6.780 Liz Palmer Like, I mean it wasn't. 1:1:9.330 --> 1:1:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 1:1:7.470 --> 1:1:10.460 Liz Palmer We didn't look down on them or think any less of them. 1:1:10.470 --> 1:1:11.520 Liz Palmer I mean, that was their choice. 1:1:12.900 --> 1:1:13.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 1:1:12.550 --> 1:1:18.440 Liz Palmer But that was also part of the feminist movement at the time, because that was your choice to sleep with whomever you wanted. 1:1:19.550 --> 1:1:20.410 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:1:20.360 --> 1:1:20.520 Liz Palmer Yeah. 1:1:20.420 --> 1:1:22.820 Philippe Alain Paradis So yeah, alright, I've done. 1:1:22.830 --> 1:1:24.110 Philippe Alain Paradis That's every question. 1:1:24.120 --> 1:1:25.660 Philippe Alain Paradis I'll I'll stop the recording real quick. 1:1:26.160 --> 1:1:26.360 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. Transcription Translation 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Pour la première question, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation autour de l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa a une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Donc la première question serait qu'il y avait moins d'électronique au Canada dans les années 70. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Pas du tout. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Alors, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 70 ? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Eh bien, nous allions au pub après l'école. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer Je suis sûre que c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, mais il y avait... 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer On allait voir mon père, on riait. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer Nous allions à la bibliothèque tous les soirs et après la fermeture de la bibliothèque, parce que j'étudiais les soins infirmiers. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer Nous allions donc à la bibliothèque médicale, puis à l'Albion, qui n'existe plus, je crois. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer Il n'existe plus et nous y allions probablement presque tous les soirs. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer Il y avait des danses. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer Nous avons dirigé l'école d'infirmières. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Palmer, Elizabeth Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about life on campus in the University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including social life, and people's views during that time. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, 1:01:37 Language A language of the resource English 1970s Abortion Academics Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Disrcimination Generational Differences Marriage Nursing October Crisis Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sunstrum, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed B, M Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (via phone call) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emily: Okay, so section 1 of the interview revolves around the impact of popular culture at the time. So, within the society that you were living in at the time what were electronics like during the 1970’s? How was your leisure time structured? Or what did most students at Oxford do for fun in the 1970s? MB: Well, of course there's no Internet. There's lots of sports and different clubs like, you know, drama club and I mean there was a sort of religious club. The Oxford University Debating Society was very famous. I didn't participate in that sort of organized stuff. We would go to the movies and concerts, lots of concerts. Live music and classical music, not rock music. Of course, the Beetles were really big at the time, they came from the place of England that I had gone to school. Actually, when I was in elementary school, just before I went off to boarding school, the Beetles were just starting out so that would be 1962 and they would come to the village fairs and sing. I would see the Beetles live; I was about 3 feet away. But then they became so big we could never afford to go to their concerts or anything like that. We didn’t watch TV or anything like that. Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? MB: There were lots of pubs at Oxford. But also, there's about 35 colleges at Oxford, there is no sort of university building, and each college would have its sort of bar and dining hall and library and stuff like that. Depending on your cluster of friends at the time you hang out at your college or their college, not many people wanted to hang out at the women’s colleges. The colleges were all single sex at the time except for one, it had just become coed. I was in one of the five women's colleges and there were 30odd men's colleges and some were more prestigious than others. Mine was the most prestigious of the women’s colleges and the men's colleges. There were about 5 or 6 really sort of really ancient but kind of like the place that Prime Ministers went to. So, people from my college tended to date people from those colleges. And there were lots of dances and balls and stuff. When I say balls, I mean you dressed up in black tie, sometimes white tie and women wore evening gowns. Emily: Okay, that’s cool. OK. So, you kind of talked a little bit about this. My next question is, did you attend any live music events during your university years? MB: Yes. So that would be. Chamber music, orchestral music, choral music. I participated in a choir. Just remembered. And we would later on we would, I started going into London. I lived quite a cosmopolitan life; I had never been into London until I started dating an American. And he was studying English, so he wanted to go to all the future he possibly could. So, we would go into London sometimes three times a week to go to, you know, West End theatre or opera or concerts of some sort, you know, classical concerts. Emily: OK, cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So, my next question is, we use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: Well, there's kind of two types. There's the very serious students, you know, sort of nerdy types. And then there's the people like Boris Johnson. Imagine Boris Johnson. Not the least bit atypical. And that goes back to probably the Middle Ages. They had this sort of heavy drinking and throwing people into the river and stuff like that. I'm sort of straddling the two because for one thing there were the proportion of women was very low. So, it's about seven guys to every woman in the university mostly. Especially the ones that went to the sort of prestigious colleges didn’t want to be getting in touch with a potential date and being told “oh sorry I have to study” “I have to finish my lab”. So there are lots of art colleges, you know, people could study art, history, whatever, but it wasn't part of the university. So, these colleges became known for providing the competition to female students. To the point (6:32) where, you know, I’d go to a party with my friends and people would say “where are you” they’d say and you would say “Oh I’m at college” which is very sort of neutral. And they pressed and would say “oh well which college” and then if you said, “well I’m going to ‘the college I went to’” and then they would start looking over your shoulder and say, “Oh I just saw Joe, I’ve got to go talk to him” and that was the end of that conversation. It was a whole, it was a very, somewhat divided sort of feeling. And it’s true, if you wanted to, you know, get your work done, you obviously had to take some time out. But it was definitely a party culture. Some of those young men would go to, they had a club which did not include women where they would go and eat fabulous food because the different colleges had wonderful chefs and then they would drink on ancient port which was in the college cellars. And start throwing oranges at 20 century portraits in the dining hall. You could imagine (8:14) it was not all prim and proper. By the way, King Charles was at Cambridge all this time so lots of people were going back and forth. This is probably too much information, I'm just remembering back how it was lots of fun, extremely creative, extremely stimulating intellectually, we met so many interesting people. So many interesting people would come and give lectures. We were just coming out of the deprivations of World War 2, about 25 years since the war had ended. It was a really really depressed society after that, lots of building going on and things started to settle down in the 70s. That’s around the time Britain on its second effort joined the European economic community(10:04), which they have since left. But it's hard to imagine going from really destroyed major towns close to where my family was living at the time, like Liverpool and Manchester. I mean Liverpool was just completely, chunks of it were flattened, burning. Emily: OK, so my next question is what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? MB: Well, I think initially, it was a very conservative place, Oxford. Lots of people's parents were sort of establishment figures, and you know, stockbrokers and bankers and stuff like that. And you know, my old father was an industrialist. And so, they were horrified by the threat of communism and stuff like that. So. I think initially it was sort of, well, let those guys get on with it, but they should be doing bad things. But we shouldn't intervene. But then very quickly, the student body, certainly as the defining thing that happened right before I went off to university was the movement in France (12:31) and Germany and in the Eastern European countries as trying to throw over government and become equitable and especially stop the war. So, there was a huge engagement in the May of 68 riots in France that sort of shut everything down and Germany and so on. Lots of radical movements. So, a wind has started to build at Oxford, and we actually did have some marches and demonstrations and we found out that the deans of the different colleges and also sort of leadership of the university were identifying students who might be good candidates for let's say MI5 or the spy agency and they were forwarding information to these services and saying “oh you might want to interview this person or that person” and that person would get invited to London to have a nice conversation. Of course, we were horrified that the university authorities were sending information to try to identify students who were good candidates without their permission or consent. So, that was the rallying cry at Oxford, of course some of those people went on to work with allies like the United States, which could of course get themselves involved in the war. The cold war was in full swing and that by the way was a terrifying thing that was always around us, sort of equivalent to the climate change crisis today. And a lot of the students were activists against nuclear arms, so people used to go on marches to you know, ban the bomb. My parents took me to visit a boarding school when they were looking for a good school to send me too and it was a very famous school and known for its academics and stuff like that and nice buildings, walking around like a college tour. And then my mother said, “but where are all the girls”, the teacher said, “they're in London at a ban the bomb march”. And it was a quaker school (15:47), run by quaker and they were pro-peace so my parents said “oh we can’t send our daughter there”. But yes the attitude of the Vietnam war, the circles that I ended up in, were very much against the war. But it took a while for me too, it was very hard to sort of when you’ve heard for years this very negative view of students, I mean in the family, of students to rise up and say we should do this, we shouldn’t do this. To sort of switch to the, when we went on marches there were TV cameras and I sort of said “oh what if my father sees me on TV” then I just stopped worrying about it. I don’t think he ever did. Emily: So, my next question for this section is Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Was Rock and Roll becoming popular within this society that you were living in? And if so, did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? MB: They probably thought it was rebellious, but I went to boarding school, I didn’t really live at home much after I was 10. I just saw them on Holidays but also sometimes I went to Holidays somewhere else. So, in a sense we got to make up our own minds, initially I didn’t like the Beetles at all. I would sort of run into them at those village fairs (17:45) and then, I remember, in the summer of 63’ or spring of 63’ we went to this village festival and they would crown the rose queen every year and it was usually a little girl like 14 or something like that and she had little page boys who were much younger and she was dressed in this sort of beautiful queen dress with a velvet cape. And the Beetles started setting up over where they had the stage and amps and stuff like that, and the crowd started to rush over there, and they trampled over the train of the rose queen. I was just horrified; I was very anti Beetles for a couple of years and after that I liked them. I remember for my birthday one year my parents took me to the Beetles movie “Help” that came out, it was pre-made I guess in Liverpool, so we went to go see it. So, in that sense they were supportive, “what movie would you like to see? Ok the Beetles, let's do that then.” But I didn’t have a radio, my sister who was a bit younger, acquired a portable radio, I should have mentioned, that’s probably more like the electronics of the era. But she would do all her homework, everything, going to bed at night, she had to have this radio on and people in the family did not like it. I couldn’t imagine having the radio going when you’re trying to work on something. So that’s another part of the evolution. Emily: OK. That's my next question is some youth culture. Voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were drugs available at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: I don’t know how widespread it was. I became aware of drugs when I became aware of Americans. Oxford has this program called road scholarships and students came from commonwealth countries and also the United States (20:26) and Canada but because the US had the biggest pool of students, they always had the largest number of scholarships. So, I became aware of these students who, for the most part, had already graduated, they already had their undergraduate and they were always like 3-4 years older than us, and they were very puerile young men of our cousins of our friends from school who didn’t like dating actual college students, these young men were completely open to that. But some of them had gotten into using drugs in the states and some of them had served in the forces in Vietnam and they would come back and say “we’ve got to end this” so there was quite a bit of it. I never bought it myself, but I did use it a few times. To be honest I’d be quite happy to use it but it made me paranoid that it was the drugs that was doing it, not me. That’s a side effect that some people experience. There was lots of booze. Emily: Right, ok. That’s all for the first section. So. Now we're moving on to the second section, which is the female experience. So, my main question for this section is culture. Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement. Women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Oxford campus during the 1970s? MB: Absolutely. can I just do a parenthesis and go back a bit Because this reminds me of the student movements and the the radicalism that was building up on other campuses, I would say partly triggered by the Vietnam War, which is all part of the Cold War. The thing that really changed my view happened between when I graduated high school and I've already been admitted to Oxford, and I spend a few months off and started at Oxford in the fall of 69’. There was a Czech student who burned themself to death and it was all about the, sorry I hope that’s not triggering for you Emily: No, that’s okay. MB: The communist Eastern European countries that were under the Soviet domination started to rise up (23:46) in Czechoslovakia in particular had what was called a Prague spring. They were moving more into representative democracy or trying too throughout 1968 and I was completely unaware of that and then this young man, that seemed like my age I actually don’t know how old he was, in January of 69’ so it’s before we went off to France and he burned himself to death. And from that moment, he was protesting the Soviet occupation which was still gradually wiping out the liberal experiment of the Prague spring. And that got me into thinking more about politics and economics as well and then I went to France and lived there for 9 months until university started. I was doing an internship in a chemical firm. And the student people that I started hanging around with were having a lot of activisms on the anniversary of the events of May, 68’ so May of 69’ they had general strikes and so on and it all succeeded forcing the President to resign. So that was also an activated moment that got me thinking about how politics work and I was a very nerdy science student. I was trying to go up to Oxford to read engineering and I was starting to get cold feet about engineering, so I ended up doing physics but by the time I became activated or engaged, I eventually took my high degree of math's and moved over into economics, politics and philosophy where I went into economics. But there was a feminist side to that, in that it was very unusual for women to even do pure science much less engineering. Only one other girl entered to do engineering (26:20) at the same time I did, but of course I dropped it and switched to physics and became the first woman in the history of Britain to become to head of the Engineers association of Britain and this was like 10 years ago. Thats how unequal things were for women at the time and of course it persisted and it's still persisting like we’ve had more women prime ministers for example. I was lucky that I went to an all-girls school so there was no negative thought through the school of doing science, other people would say things like “oh she should be careful because it's hard to be in a lab with just men”. But the other big thing we did during my time at Oxford, so 69’-74’, we gradually pushed and pushed, this was in between sort of major world type movements and individual actions like this idea to become a schoolteacher, so this middling thing at the university level, we pushed to get more colleges to become co-ed. Rach college had its own rules so it happened very gradually, I think most of them are co-ed now. But they would say things like, we had staff, cleaning staff that would come and make up people's rooms and the deans would say “we can't possibly have co-ed colleges because men and women would sleep together”. If the staff came in in the morning and found a man and woman in the same bed, then they would quit so they couldn’t keep the staff. After a bit somebody said, “well maybe we don’t need to go in the bedrooms” and then the answers were (29:13) “well the staff are there to make sure there aren't any young men in your room”, it took a while to get that changed. And the same thing was happening at the time in the US in the ivy league, I don’t know if the dorms at U of O might have been going through the same thing, whether or not they should have co-ed residences. One of our heroes for women and men by the way from American university was Angela Davis. She was a very left-wing activist in the US, and she was jailed at the time, and it was to do with having guns and trials and stuff like that and she became one of our heroes. One of our marches was about free Angela Davis, I think at one point she may have come later on when she was released in 72’, she came and lectured at Oxford. Emily: So, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. So how did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events? MB: I kind of alluded to a whole bunch, do you want me to repeat some of it? Emily: You don't have to repeat it all, but just a little bit of a summary would be good (31:06). MB: Yeah, ok. Well, all but one of the residential colleges of about 35 were single sex, the proportion of women on the university campus was very low and the anecdote about when you would go to social events, many of the men had gone to similar high schools and were the same age as us and in our same classes didn’t particularly want to date women confronting the same work load, deadlines and things that they were. So, we ended up drifting towards grad students or maybe Americans or Canadians. And we were very active on the topic of making things co-ed, you had to enroll in the college, its not like choosing your dorm after you’ve been accepted so if you were in a particiular college you would discover that it was very strict on keeping men and women separate. People used to do things like siging in and out of college, they had these gate hours that the staff had to monitor. So my college closed at 11 so you knew you had to be back inside by 11 o’clock. If you knew you had something that was going to end later, you could sign out a key, but it was really a big deal. What people would do is they would climb over the walls, sometimes injuring themselves, a couple people were killed, probably they were drunk, but they wanted to get in and out so that’s what they would do. Or they stayed out all night. Emily: So, my next question then is in the 1970s were there programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? MB: I'm not really aware of any. I know that some of my contemporaries, from school age contemporary, not a classmate but somebody I knew, went onto to become the first woman president of the Oxford debating union society but I can't even remember when that was (33:58), it happened after I left. But we certainly were aware of women who graduated from Oxford went onto political success in their respective country so like the first woman Prime Minister anywhere I think had gone to Oxford. Margaret Thatcher went to Oxford, actually the 3 woman PMs were all conservative interesting enough and they all went to Oxford. Emily: So that's it for the feminism section. My next question has to do with ideology and generational differences. So, historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? (35:51) MB: I mean that would be 100% what was going through my mind at the time. I started off as a very focused on a very technical career and I mean I have to say my father was an engineer so that was partly the only role model I had. But that meant lots of very serious studying and you didn’t do much reading around other things and then I became engaged in the particular incidents gradually. We weren’t really in our families you know, so it wasn’t a case of going home every evening or week or month or something and having to argue this stuff out with your parents. You could carry on with your own way of thinking, form your own ideas. I mean they were very interested; I don’t want to make it out that they were not interested in these kinds of things, but they weren’t particularly day to day observing whether you skipped classes or whatever. The good thing is you didn’t have to go to lectures there, the key thing is having tutorials one on one and working on a research project and preparing that with your tutor. I would start every single term planning to go to lectures because there were so many interesting ones but then I would get so much work on my plate (37:39), I had my social life and my activism that I didn’t have time to go to lectures. Because it wasn’t obligatory, that was the one thing that was sort of laid back. I did work in mini-shorts and stuff like that, flower child clothes and certainly the young conservative clubs where people like Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May and Liz Truss were making their mark. But they were very serious political wonks, so they weren’t going to go dressing up like flower children, they were all suits and ties and stuff like that. Of course, when we went to dances and balls, we were all elegantly dressed. Emily: OK, so then my next question is to what extent did your generation believe that your parents' notion about gender family dating were outdated? MB: Well, I guess I probably did feel that, I didn’t really confront them, but I did leave Britain right after I finished all the various bits of studying that I did there, and I didn’t go back for a decade. And it was really because I began to be aware, especially well young men, because road scholarships at that time were only open to men. By the way you couldn’t be married to accept a road scholarship. There were all kinds of romances that had originated from these ivy league universities or whatever universities were sending those. And they had to put off their plans for over a year if they wanted a scholarship but then they would meet their eventual wives and they would come over and then I realized these kind had a much more equal relationship than I thought other people, my parents, my aunts and uncles and so on, their relationship did not seem to be so equal and I thought wow there's a certain respect here, they could open their own banking account, I had to get my father to open my account for me. And, you know, I really thought the US (40:11), I was watching what was happening with water gate that was opening up, the protest against the Vietnam war and the water gate breaking and I don’t know if you’ve been looking but it was just the 50th anniversary recently, it was just amazing to see that unfolding and then when they moved to the US, it was actually the first year I was living there, was a combination of water gate and the resignation of Britain in 1974. It was just to me, the most dramatic thing that the government could be, I've seen that happen in France with the goal it 69’ and here it was France was even more socially stratified in gender imbalance society than Britain. But I thought wow you could have really a self-respecting career or life in this place. And I remember my mother saying to me, “but don’t you realize that all these men that you met who are American or Canadian at Oxford are the best of the best, the people that you'll find there are probably not very friendly or feminist or very welcoming to women” and at first I thought yes that’s a good point but then I thought well actually the young men that I met that were British were also supposed to be the best of the best and I was finding them wanting so I thought guess I'll try so I did. Of course, there's lots more nuance to American politics and British politics and French politics. Emily: So yeah, so, my next question is, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizen's needs? MB: In Britain? Emily: Yes, when you were in university in the 1970s MB: No, not at all, I felt that it was extremely trapped in ancient stereotypes, some of those things were very obvious in the single sex colleges and schools. The famous schools don’t accept co-ed students either. But the economy was clearly very biased towards men (42:51). I mean I quite enjoyed when I was still thinking I was going to be an engineer, my father eventually came around and thought it was kind of a neat thing so he started finding out if there was anything that could show yiung women what it might be like to be an engineer. So, like a winter program of two weeks at a university, sort of a lab or an internship or something, so he found a few things like that. I quite liked being the only, or one of two women in those programs, you know you get a lot of attention. And I don’t mean sexual attention, it was just the idea that “here they are doing all their stuff” and then I would stick up my hand say something, and they would all listen but then quite often just carry on what they were doing before. Anyway, it was yes. These things go in lurches I've of course discovered since then, those political changes and economic, I won't say equality, but justice shall we say. Emily: OK, so then, looking back at the 1970s, what aspects of your society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? (44:19) MB: Sorry what aspects of the time seemed out of whack? Emily: Yes, like when you were in university MB: Well, I think the gender imbalances and the fact that political action was concentrated in very small, tight, circles. I mean Bill Clinton was there when I was at Oxford, I think Hillary too. I didn’t know them though, but these people were all floating around, creating their own establishment. But to me watching the televised hearing of how I saw it was a very good exercise in democracy and seeing how lawyers, a lot of whose assistants were people I had been studying with, to being assistant to the prosecutors. Really opened things up but now of course you look back on that and sort of say “well you know, Jim Jordan holds hearings and it's just a political rant you know”. So, it's things lurch and sometimes they go back, 2 steps forward you hope, 1 and a half steps back. Emily: So, I have one more section for you. Um. And my first question is cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? MB: I'm not sure I agree with all of it but certainly I'm not aware of any of my little group of friends that was not on the pill (46:26). I think there were probably many that were Catholics and were not but in my circle. Everyone knew there was a particular place you could go for abortions; I don’t remember when it became legalized, I don’t think it was legal at the time in Britain, I don’t think it was legal until after I left, but there was a place you could go. I mean I never used it because the pill is pretty effective. And I think it did make us a little more, I suspect, I mean I don’t have any older brothers, but I suspect it made us a little more free and easy about dating. By the way we werent completely subject to exactly the same sort of para relationships and psychological abuse as others. Emily: Then what did dating look like on campus in the 1970s? MB: Well, you met people at parties, there's no internet, and we called them cattle market and that’s where people would look at you and go “oh my god you go to college, you’re a university student oh nah”. They preferred to date people that didn’t have other commitments, they wanted to be able to decide when to go on a date and not be told that they had to do a paper or a project or lab or something like that. You know people did pair up, they had their relationships and some of them got married right after university so that was in a sense very 1950’s conventional. I went through a whole phase “oh I'm never going to get married” and then I mean they guy I did marry; I'm still married to (49:02), I met him when I went to Alberta and I thought I was just moving there briefly but I've been here in Canada ever since, about 45 years ago, sort of a love at first sight paradigm. I certainly left Britain on my own initiative and a couple of guys from the States I had known and even dated at Oxford, they would say things like “I really like you why don’t we just get married” and I kind of said “No, I don’t want to get married”. So, I think that liberated me in a sense that not to get into a situation that would be more complicated than it needed to be. I had lots of issues with the whole 5 years before I lived in the US, I had constantly tried to get my visa extended. Emily: I feel like this kind of ties into a little bit of what you were saying just then but my last question is how did your generation look at family and marriage? MB: Many of us were quite determined not to get married and then later on even when we had got married not to have children. I think you still hear some of that but of course it happened so we kind of changed that for the world. And by the way, I don’t know if this is part of your thinking at all but, gay life at Oxford was extremely well established (51:16) and quite common and that goes back centuries and that’s because it was all male for so long. And profs could not be married so they kept their families outside the city limits or outside the limits of the university jurisdiction but that was only in late 19th century. But you could think people like the guy who wrote “Alice in Wonderland” he was a very typical Oxford prof. And it was I wouldn’t say celebrated, gayness, but it was definitely, and the other thing is because it was World War 2 a lot of the school teachers and I, which happened to be in Oxford had no boyfriends or there weren’t any young men around or maybe they weren’t interested in young men. And so, it was perfectly normal for two women to be living together and my math teacher and gym teacher and on and on and on and you were totally not bothered by it. When I was in my upper classes in high school, I started going to clubs and parties at Oxford events and you'd see certain young men and you’d say, “oh I kind of like that guy” and then a bit later you’d realize “oh he's with this other guy, that’s fine”. It was legalized in Britain in 1968 (53:18) so right away from the time I was at boarding school it was illegal and the when I went to university it was legal. It was certainly a very open... Emily: It was accepted MB: Ya, accepted, that’s a better way of putting it because I'm sure there was a lot of prejudice elsewhere in Britain and probably Cambridge and some of the other universities were very much welcoming and supportive. Emily: Well, that is all the questions that I have for you today. MB: I hope I wasn't too much of a fire hose Emily: No that’s okay, thank you so much for your time (55:17) Transcription Translation Emily : D'accord, la première partie de l'entretien porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire de l'époque. Au sein de la société dans laquelle vous viviez à l'époque, à quoi ressemblait l'électronique dans les années 1970 ? Comment était structuré votre temps libre ? Ou que faisaient la plupart des étudiants d'Oxford pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? MB : Bien sûr, il n'y avait pas d'Internet. Il y avait beaucoup de sports et différents clubs comme, vous savez, le club de théâtre et je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de club religieux. La Oxford University Debating Society était très célèbre. Je ne participais pas à ce genre d'activités organisées. Nous allions au cinéma et à des concerts, beaucoup de concerts. De la musique live et de la musique classique, pas de la musique rock. Bien sûr, les Beetles étaient très populaires à l'époque, ils venaient de la région d'Angleterre où j'étais allé à l'école. En fait, lorsque j'étais à l'école primaire, juste avant d'aller à l'internat, les Beetles commençaient à peine, c'était en 1962, et ils venaient chanter dans les foires de village. J'ai vu les Beetles en concert ; j'étais à un mètre de distance. Mais ils sont devenus si importants que nous n'avons jamais pu nous permettre d'aller à leurs concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre. Nous ne regardions pas la télévision. Emily : Oui, ça a l'air bien. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? MB : Il y avait beaucoup de pubs à Oxford. Mais il y a aussi 35 collèges à Oxford, il n'y a pas de bâtiment universitaire, et chaque collège a son bar, son réfectoire, sa bibliothèque, etc. En fonction de votre groupe d'amis à ce moment-là, vous fréquentez votre collège ou leur collège, mais peu de gens voulaient fréquenter les collèges de femmes. Les universités étaient toutes unisexes à l'époque, à l'exception d'une seule, qui venait de devenir mixte. J'étais dans l'une des cinq universités féminines et il y avait une trentaine d'universités masculines, dont certaines étaient plus prestigieuses que d'autres. La mienne était la plus prestigieuse des universités féminines et masculines. Il y en avait 5 ou 6 qui étaient vraiment très anciens, mais qui ressemblaient un peu à l'endroit où allaient les Premiers ministres. Les gens de mon collège avaient donc tendance à sortir avec des gens de ces collèges. Il y avait beaucoup de danses, de bals et d'autres choses. Quand je parle de bals, je veux dire qu'on s'habillait en cravate noire, parfois en cravate blanche et les femmes portaient des robes de soirée. Emily : D'accord, c'est cool. D'ACCORD. Vous en avez un peu parlé. Ma prochaine question est la suivante : avez-vous assisté à des événements musicaux pendant vos années d'université ? MB : Oui. Je dirais donc que c'est le cas. Musique de chambre, musique orchestrale, musique chorale. J'ai participé à une chorale. Je m'en souviens. Plus tard, j'ai commencé à aller à Londres. Je vivais une vie assez cosmopolite ; je n'étais jamais allée à Londres jusqu'à ce que je sorte avec un Américain. Et comme il étudiait l'anglais, il voulait aller dans tous les futurs qu'il pouvait. Nous allions donc à Londres parfois trois fois par semaine pour aller au théâtre du West End, à l'opéra ou à des concerts classiques. Emily : OK, cool. Oui, ça a l'air cool. Ma question suivante est la suivante : nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête " pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Oxford dans les années 1970 ? MB : Eh bien, il y a deux types d'étudiants. Il y a les étudiants très sérieux, les intellos. Et puis il y a les gens comme Boris Johnson. Imaginez Boris Johnson. Pas le moins du monde atypique. Et cela remonte probablement au Moyen-Âge. Les gens buvaient beaucoup, jetaient les gens dans les rivières, etc. Je suis en quelque sorte à cheval entre les deux parce que, d'une part, la proportion de femmes était très faible. Il y a environ sept hommes pour une femme à l'université. En particulier, celles qui allaient dans des universités prestigieuses ne voulaient pas entrer en contact avec une fille potentielle et se faire dire "oh, désolé, je dois étudier" "je dois finir mon labo". Il existe donc de nombreuses écoles d'art, où l'on peut étudier l'art, l'histoire ou autre chose, mais qui ne font pas partie de l'université. C'est ainsi que ces écoles sont devenues célèbres pour la concurrence qu'elles offraient aux étudiantes. À tel point que, lorsque j'allais à une fête avec mes amis, les gens me demandaient "Où es-tu ?" et vous répondiez "Oh, je suis à l'université", ce qui est tout à fait neutre. Ils insistaient et disaient "Oh, quelle université" et si vous répondiez "Eh bien, je vais à l'université où je suis allé", ils commençaient à regarder par-dessus votre épaule et disaient "Oh, je viens de voir Joe, il faut que j'aille lui parler" et c'était la fin de la conversation. C'était un sentiment très, très divisé. Et c'est vrai, si vous vouliez, vous savez, faire votre travail, vous deviez évidemment prendre un peu de temps pour vous. Mais c'était vraiment une culture de la fête. Certains de ces jeunes hommes se rendaient dans un club qui n'incluait pas de femmes, où ils allaient manger des plats fabuleux parce que les différents collèges avaient de merveilleux chefs, puis ils buvaient du porto ancien qui se trouvait dans les caves des collèges. Et ils commençaient à jeter des oranges sur des portraits du 20ème siècle dans le réfectoire. Vous pouvez imaginer que tout n'était pas rose et correct. D'ailleurs, le roi Charles était à Cambridge pendant tout ce temps, si bien que beaucoup de gens allaient et venaient. C'est probablement trop d'informations, mais je me souviens simplement que c'était très amusant, très créatif, très stimulant intellectuellement, et que nous avons rencontré tant de gens intéressants. Nous avons rencontré tant de personnes intéressantes. Tant de personnes intéressantes venaient donner des conférences. Nous sortions tout juste des privations de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, environ 25 ans après la fin de la guerre. La société était vraiment très déprimée après cela, il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours et les choses ont commencé à se calmer dans les années 70. C'est à cette époque que la Grande-Bretagne, pour son deuxième effort, a rejoint la Communauté économique européenne, qu'elle a quittée depuis. Mais il est difficile d'imaginer la destruction des grandes villes proches de l'endroit où ma famille vivait à l'époque, comme Liverpool et Manchester. Je veux dire que Liverpool a été complètement détruite, des pans entiers de la ville ont été rasés, brûlés. Emily : D'accord, alors ma question suivante est : que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? MB : Eh bien, je pense qu'au départ, c'était un endroit très conservateur, Oxford. Les parents de beaucoup de gens étaient des figures de l'establishment, des agents de change, des banquiers, etc. Et vous savez, mon père était un industriel. Ils étaient donc horrifiés par la menace du communisme et ce genre de choses. Donc. Je pense qu'au départ, c'était un peu comme si on laissait ces gens faire ce qu'ils voulaient, mais qu'ils devaient faire de mauvaises choses. Mais nous ne devrions pas intervenir. Mais très vite, le corps étudiant, certainement parce que la chose déterminante qui s'est produite juste avant que je n'entre à l'université a été le mouvement en France et en Allemagne et dans les pays d'Europe de l'Est pour essayer de se débarrasser du gouvernement et de devenir équitable, et surtout d'arrêter la guerre. Les émeutes de mai 68 en France, qui ont en quelque sorte tout bloqué, ainsi qu'en Allemagne et dans d'autres pays, ont été l'occasion d'un engagement considérable. Beaucoup de mouvements radicaux. Nous avons découvert que les doyens des différents collèges et la direction de l'université identifiaient les étudiants susceptibles d'être de bons candidats pour le MI5 ou l'agence d'espionnage, par exemple, et qu'ils transmettaient des informations à ces services en disant : "Oh, vous voudrez peut-être interviewer telle ou telle personne" et que cette personne était invitée à Londres pour avoir une conversation agréable. Bien sûr, nous étions horrifiés que les autorités universitaires envoient des informations pour tenter d'identifier les étudiants qui étaient de bons candidats sans leur permission ou leur consentement. C'était donc le cri de ralliement à Oxford, et bien sûr, certaines de ces personnes sont allées travailler avec des alliés comme les États-Unis, qui pouvaient bien sûr s'impliquer dans la guerre. La guerre froide battait son plein et c'était d'ailleurs une chose terrifiante qui nous entourait en permanence, une sorte d'équivalent de la crise du changement climatique aujourd'hui. Beaucoup d'étudiants militaient contre l'armement nucléaire et organisaient des marches pour interdire la bombe. Mes parents m'ont emmenée visiter un internat lorsqu'ils cherchaient une bonne école où m'envoyer. Il s'agissait d'une école très réputée, connue pour ses études et d'autres choses du même genre, avec de beaux bâtiments, où l'on se promenait comme dans une visite d'université. Et puis ma mère a dit, "mais où sont toutes les filles", le professeur a répondu, "elles sont à Londres à une marche pour l'interdiction des bombes". C'était une école de quakers, dirigée par des quakers et ils étaient pour la paix, alors mes parents ont dit "oh, nous ne pouvons pas envoyer notre fille là-bas". Mais oui, l'attitude à l'égard de la guerre du Viêt Nam, les cercles dans lesquels je me suis retrouvée, étaient très opposés à la guerre. Mais il m'a fallu un certain temps pour que, après avoir entendu pendant des années cette vision très négative des étudiants, je veux dire dans la famille, les étudiants se lèvent et disent que nous devrions faire ceci, que nous ne devrions pas faire cela. Lorsque nous avons participé à des marches, il y avait des caméras de télévision et je me suis dit "Oh, et si mon père me voyait à la télévision", puis j'ai cessé de m'en préoccuper. Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais fait. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B, M (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonal about the life on campus of Oxford University in the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 1970s Abortion Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Hippies Oxford, England Physics Popular Music Protest Queer Sexuality Student Life The Pill Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Trepanier, Kaelan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Voisard, Yvette Location The location of the interview Gatineau, Quebec, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 00:00:03 - KT: So, uh cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. KT: Um You didn't grow up in Ottawa but you grew up in Verdun, um was, was Verdun bilingual? YV: Yes KT: Um, at the time. YV: Yeah, yeah. KT: Um So we want to understand better how anglophones and francophones kind of related to each other. YV: Well, they didn't. As far as I can remember, we didn't participate in anything with the, with the French uh community. YV: Um As a like a student, it was completely separate, the school systems were completely separate. If we participated in sports in school, Uh we played English schools, we didn't play French schools. KT: OK. YV: Okay, um What was integrated, it was hockey. Like my brother would play and he always had, there were always French players on the team as well. Okay, so maybe with the boys section or maybe because of the type of sport there was more interaction. YV: Um My mom and dad uh neighbors were all English. Okay. YV: Uh are the big gang that we were in? Like we were about 12 kids in there okay, most of them were all English. The parents might have been French, okay, but the kids, all, we all grew up, they became English. We didn't become French. KT: Yup. YV: Okay? They became English. YV: And so we’d join our gang. So there wasn't a lot of like sharing, KT: Yup. YV: And that was probably part of the problem that led to the quote revolution. KT: Yep. YV: Okay, yeah. KT: Do you think they became English because their parents saw English as a good way to kind of, uh? 00:02:00 - YV: I, I'm, I'm not too sure. YV: Um I do know that I once applied for a job at a bank and I had written my application letter in French and I was phoned up immediately for the job. Okay? KT: Hm. YV: But I didn't have a good linguistic background, oral. KT: Okay. YV: So I had to tell the guy that, okay, but he was looking for people who were bilingual who could speak French to work in the bank as a clerk, KT: Yep. YV: and he couldn't find them. KT: So, YV: couldn't find them. YV: You wanna go out? YV: You know. So there was a problem with the, the friendship. I mean, there was a divide, there was, it was there. YV: Come on, you wanna go out? Come on. YV: Sorry about that. I didn't expect to have KT: um uh huh. Yeah. YV: Even when I worked as a waitress, everything was in English. The menus were in English. I served in English. Uh people ordered in English even though they may have been French. Okay. KT: When did that change? YV: Well, we, you know, they started talking about uh using the proper French words for, for like,so I started using Guimauve for marshmallow and the French people didn't understand what I'm talking about. KT: Yep, [giggles] YV: So, you know, so there was so much English involved, I think in their language that they were using our words far more than we were using any French terms. KT: Yep. 00:03:57 - YV: Okay. But obviously it started to change then because that's in, uh, 19 Duplessis was out. Okay. Bourrassa was in so they probably started at that point, you know, thinking about the French culture and stuff like that. KT: Um So I grew up with, I grew up in Point Clare, which is in the West Island. And the way that I've grown up is um basically everything like West of Dorval is English, right? KT: English and not rich. But you got, you got some money, you know. Um and then everything East of that is much more French and they don't have as much money. KT: Would you say it's kind of the same thing or similar? YV: Yeah, yeah yeah. In Verdun, It was divided up in such a way that um there was a place called Crawford Park down at this end, and that was very English and had much more money than where I was living. Okay? YV: I was living where the the there were three floors in the apartment block. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay? And so the tenements are both French or English. So you could be living um on the first floor, for example, we lived in one place on the first floor and we were English but the people upstairs were French. Okay. That kind of thing. YV: So there was a mixed bank and then further down that way, towards the East of Montreal. You're talking Pointe Saint Charles. KT: Yep. YV: More French. KT: Okay. YV: So it went from very, very English, a mix and then very, very French. KT: Interesting. KT: Did you notice any um, economic differences? Like where the English people, did they have more money or? YV: they had, they had, they would have a car. KT: Okay. YV: Like my mom, my mom and dad didn't have a car. The kids would be better dressed. Okay, than us. Okay. 00:05:54 - YV: Um, they would be going to, uh, things like, uh, the auditorium or the movies or something like that far more frequently than we would. YV: They didn't participate in the, the park situation. Okay, the playground situation. YV: Verdun had a very, very active playground situation for kids. You could go to the playground and be there from 9 to 9 and there was, there were monitors. YV: I was a monitor, there were monitors there all day who did eight hour shifts and then every hour there was a scheduled activity. Could have been art, dance, take the kids for a baseball game, you know, a shag bet game, take them swimming, all, all kinds of stuff. Okay. YV: Where I worked it was 100% crowded. At the other end, not so. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, because they were able to, they might have had a cottage and were able to go away on the weekend and stuff like that. KT: Yep. YV: Okay KT: Um, so obvious, obviously there was a lot less electronics in society back when you were in university. Um, how was your leisure time structured or, did you have any? YV: Well, well, high school or university? KT: Uh, uh university. YV: University? Oh, that one’s a toughie, because I didn't have much leisure time. Okay. 00:07:39 - YV: Classes, like, sometimes because of labs, like Abby, finish long. Didn't have night classes, but when I used to get home, okay ,then I would have to do whatever homework and assignments I had to do. So I did not have a lot of leisure time. Okay and then when I started working that was even less because I worked Friday nights, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday and then started. YV: So it was no, I didn't have much leisure time. YV: I managed to go to the odd hockey game with Morris, the movie. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, but apart from that, not a lot. And of course, like maybe a Tuesday night have basketball games. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, and then in the spring and in the fall, you know, baseball, KT: Yep. YV: but that was very often on an afternoon because not all the parks had lights to work in the evening. KT: Wow. YV: Okay, so you had to have your games during the, KT: Yeah. YV: the afternoon. Yeah. KT: Um. YV: I did a lot of reading. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, I did a lot of reading on my own. Um, KT: Was that books from the library or? YV: some of them were from the, a lot of them were from the library. My mom for my birthday and Christmas would buy me books, but I would tell her which ones to go. And there was only one English bookstore that you sort of went to, and that was the classics. YV: Okay. Which was taken over by Indigo later on. Okay, but that was a long time ago. YV: It's up on Saint Catherine Street near Bishops. Okay. Yeah, so. KT: When, when you were talking about the, um, hockey games, that was the Habs? YV: Yeah, I was a Boston fan though. KT: Ohh. YV: I still am. I've always been, always, always, always, yeah, Morris was a, uh, Montreal Canadians and my, my father was an avid Montreal Canadian fan. My mother could care less, and my sisters. KT: No. YV: No. Okay. And then the two boys got into hockey and once they were finished hockey, Paul and I never went back to another game. KT: Hm. YV: That was it. 00:09:52 - KT: Was, it, um, was, it as big as it is now? like the Habs? YV: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. KT: Those were the years. YV: Yeah, those were the years and there were few rules on the ice. Okay, I mean, uh, helmets, players didn't wear helmets. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. So, completely different. Although kids wore helmets, I'm pretty sure that Marcel had a helmet when he played, you know, but pick up hockey, KT: Mhm. YV: nobody wore a helmet. KT: Yep. YV: No, KT: Hm. YV: no. KT: Um, so transitioning to, um, campus, um, where, what were the most popular hangout spots on campus and then off campus as well? YV: Well, of course there was a Union building at McGill Okay. Um, you have to remember you weren't allowed in bars. So, you know, that was, uh, you were checked, KT: Yep. YV: you were checked all the time. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: If you went in. Okay. So that was a hard, a hard one to go to. So it would have had to have been a, something like a, a restaurant place where, you know, a local restaurant. You wouldn't be allowed in, uh, downtown Montreal into a place. Okay, yeah, one of the, KT: Mhm. YV: you couldn't get into the contiki, for example, that was a bar and dinner place you had to show your, KT: ID. YV: ID to get KT: Yep. YV: into them, you know. So, so, uh, so, uh, hangouts would have been local areas where, like I said, the boardwalk KT: Yep. YV: and the movie theater and, you know, places around the, a baseball field or where people skated and played hockey during the winter time, you know. YV: So, um, even, even in university, I mean, I was 20 when I graduated from university, I wasn't allowed in the, I mean, I did go, you know, KT: Yep. YV: but, you know, if I was carded, that was, that was it, goodbye! You know, KT: Yep. YV: hold the lead. KT: Were there any hangout spots on campus? Um. 00:11:56 - YV: No, not at our place. Um, M McGill. I can't remember at McGill, I can't remember. Um, there was nothing at the medical building and there was nothing at Loyola that I can remember. YV: Okay, so it would have been just the Union Building. KT: Is that I know, uh, campuses now have spots built to, to hang out, you know? Did they back then? YV: No, KT: No YV: no, I think that came as a KT: Later. YV: Yeah. KT: Yeah, okay. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, how linguistically integrated was Marianopolis? YV: Wasn’t. KT: at all? YV: Right. No, it was English. KT: Yeah. Um, YV: It was English. KT: um, were there any French, um, people that, that tried to go there? YV: Oh, I wouldn’t know that. KT: Okay. YV: That I wouldn't know. And I don't, like, I never had a French student, uh, classmate. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, in my science classes? KT: Yep. YV: Okay. There might have been some in the, uh, b A programs. KT: Mhm. YV: I wouldn't know. I didn't hang around with them. We were too busy. You didn't have time enough to hang around with them, you know? So, I don't know. I don't know. KT: Um, the whole party culture that we refer to now, uh, referring to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe that? It doesn't have to be parties but like you mentioned the boardwalk, um, and how that was popular? YV: Well, that was, that was a hangout for, um, you know, from the spring through to the fall. Okay because it closed down, the building, the boardwalk building KT: Mhm. YV: closed down over the winter time. But when you went there, they always had the beau the beauty of it. Uh, even if you didn't, you couldn't drink inside. I mean, I'm not saying that there wasn't any booze on the but there was a whole grass park all the way around it. 00:14:03 - KT: Mhm. So you could, you know, join in the, the music, participate in any music that was coming from there because a lot of it was a DJ or um, a popular band in the area. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. So it was one of those places where you, you know, you, you see in a movie where the girls are all dressed up and hanging out and dancing on the grass or whatever that ki that kind of association. Nothing more, more formal than that. And a lot of times it was just groups of kids. So, so in my gang, we were, good lord, I'm trying to think. We must have been 15, 15 people. YV: We were boys and girls, KT: Mhm. YV: but we didn't pair up as boys and girls. Everybody just met, KT: Yeah. YV: went and did something, then went home and then the next day we re-meet again sometimes it was just a pickup football game or we'd all go to the pool or we'd all go to the movies but it was not so and so was with somebody else and KT: Yeah. YV: so no, it was none of that. YV: Okay? But that was, you know, when I was 18 years old, you know, kind of thing. KT: Mhm YV: There wasn't any uh pairing up and I, I would imagine that a lot of that continued at the boardwalk, okay? YV: Until, you know, I mean, people got married when they were quite young, you know, a lot of my friends were married by the time they were 20 you know. KT: Wow. YV: So, yeah, KT: very different, very different than today. YV: Yeah, very different than today because at the time that's what you did, KT: Yeah. YV: you got married and then you had children and you started with the cycle all over again, KT: Yeah. YV: you know. KT: Um, was there any, like, parties like you would think about today, um, when you're in university that you can think of or was it more like at the bar? Right? There was no house parties. There was 00:15:57 - YV: No, no, there were no house. I, I have never been to any of my associates in class, KT: Mhm. to their, their places. And um never, no, not one KT: Hm. YV: not to Dana's not to Christine. Not, no, no, never. KT: So all the, all the, the hangout spots were outside of, YV: outside of the school and in your own neighborhood. Not, not uh you didn't have a common place where you would get together. KT: So, did you have different friends from school and different friends from where you grew up? YV: Yeah. KT: Did they ever mix? YV: No. KT: Was there anyone where you grew up with them? And they went to the same school? YV: Uh, Gail, I grew up with Gail and she went to Marianapolis as well, but she went in the arts program. KT: Okay. YV: So I didn't see her. KT: Yep. YV: Alright, Christine went into the arts program. Joyce went into the arts program. YV: There weren't a lot of people who went into the science program. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, so once we got there and said hello and whatever in the morning or for a cup of coffee or whatever, then there was, you never saw them? Okay? KT: Yep. YV: And, and we always had a lab, we always had labs. Okay. So you, you would be walking into the, the caf area at four o'clock in the afternoon and there were nobody there, KT: [giggles] YV: just the science people would be there. KT: Yep. YV: You know, we're all doing lab work KT: [giggles] YV: or we're all doing lab reports or we're doing freaking math. Did so much math, KT: Yeah. YV: you know. YV: So, no, it, it's really, really interesting when I think about it because, uh, when you, okay, you come in the door and there's a locker area and then you went up the stairs, there was a washrooms and then they had coffee machines and, you know, like a vending machine, KT: Mhm. YV: not food, coffee, maybe soft drinks. 00:17:57 - YV: Okay, And then you went into what was quote the cafeteria That side was the art side and this side was the science side. KT: Was that on purpose or just? YV: No, it's just the way it happened. Okay., and I think it's because we walked around in our white lab coats the whole day because we were, and we smelled because every single lab produced something that would stink up the place, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, and you just. My, even my mother would say the same thing. KT: [giggles] YV: She pointed to the back and say, take your stuff out there, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, we were that, that bad, you know. YV: So I think that's, and then it just got worse in the sense that you got more involved in your science classes and your lab cla and they got more involved in their thing and you saw less and less and less of,of the friends that you had in high school. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, but you didn't make social friends at university too many like me, KT: Mhm. YV: I, you know, I would leave Friday afternoon and I go to work, you know, so there wasn't much time for socializing and that kind of thing, KT: Yep. YV: you know. KT: Um, I know the Vietnam War came a little bit later. Um, and, you know, Canada, we weren't participating. Um, but what did the, the, what did you guys think about the Vietnam War? Did you know anything about that? YV: Well, I knew about it in the sense that my boyfriend went, was enlisted in there. There were three guys from my area who hung around together who enlisted in the same time. Okay. YV: Morris was killed. The other two were not. YV: Um, but so I did know, uh, about the war in that time but you didn't get anything on TV, until later. Okay, with Walter Conkright and Tom Brokaw and a couple of those guys from CBS. Alright. YV: Don't forget we didn't have the internet. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. 00:19:57 - YV: And if I was lucky I saw news on TV, because I either had to rely on a radio or, or I'd get home at seven o'clock at night and the news would be over because news was from 6 to 7 on TV. Okay. YV: It wasn't, uh, you didn't have CNN that had news all day. KT: Yep. YV: That didn't happen. Okay. News wasn't from 6 to 7 and from 11 to 12. KT: Was there anything in the magazines that you said you were reading? YV: Yes. And Time Magazine, Time would write up stuff on Vietnam, but they wrote what they had to write, you know, like, so you didn't hear a lot about what was going on. You didn't hear about the body count. You didn't hear about the Napalm that was being dropped. KT: Yep. YV: Okay? A lot of that only came out when Nixon came around and, and started to invade Cambodia to try to get to Vietnam. Okay. That's when a lot of the garbage started to show up and the body bags started to come home KT: Yeah. YV: and that was on TV, where they would have the coffins coming off the airplane. And that's when I think people started to realize that this was a war that the Americans were not going to win. KT: Yep. KT: Was there any, um were there any Vietnamese or Asian people where you grew up or you went to school with? YV: No, KT: So, YV: no. Um um there was a Chinatown? Okay. But, and, ok, do you know Montreal? KT: Yeah. YV: You know, Atwater? KT: Yeah. YV: Ok. That whole area was a black area. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, and Chinatown was further East and South. Um, I don't think I even had a black student in class. My school. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay, and certainly not an Asian. I don't remember we had Polish, KT: Mhm. 00:22:00 - YV: Hungarian, Czechs, Germans, certainly a lot of English. No French. KT: No. YV: no, there might have been people who spoke French but they weren't French. KT: Yep. YV: French. Okay. So, no. Alright. KT: Um, so there is uh, rock and roll artists YV: Hm. KT: in the, in the sixties, right? YV: Hm. KT: Um Looking back on it, people say that it promoted various forms of protest and that was a way of rebelling against their parents YV: Oh yeah Joan Baez and, and all of these guys, yeah KT: what did, YV: Um KT: what did you guys think about that? YV: Liked the music I don't know if we thought it was personally, I don't think I found that it encouraged me to, you know, fight against anything or, KT: Yep. YV: or nothing like that. You know, KT: Mhm. YV: I think a lot of, a lot of people like me thought that was an American problem, KT: Okay. YV: not a Canadian problem because, well, Canada might have supported verbally. They didn't do anything. I mean, they, you know, in that sense, ok. And the people who volunteered to go into the American army, they did it as, as a choice on their part, there was no problem of uh going across the border and signing up at the army posting or whatever, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, and nobody questioned you, you wanted to go, you went, that was it you know, KT: Yep. YV: you didn't have to go through customs or anything. There was nothing. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. So, it, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't an issue. Okay. That, that was an American problem. That was not a Canadian problem. KT: Interesting. Um. YV: Well, we were very staid. We, we don't forget, Canadians are very staid. Very conservative. Like a lot of stuff behind closed doors. KT: Yep. True. YV: Still do. Kt: Yeah. Like, we're like the Americans. But, very different. 00:24:01 - YV: Not like the Americans. KT: Yeah. Um, some youth culture, voices of the seventies promoted recreational drugs. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, you went to a Catholic University, I assume those weren't present. YV: No. KT: Yeah. YV: No, and even the amount of recreational drugs that were in the schools was minimum. Even, even in the, in the seventies at, at my high school. KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. I mean, it, when I left, no, maybe in the eighties and the early nineties we could, every teacher knew every drug seller in the school, KT: Mhm. YV: and the leader of the pack was one of the most, was one of the most intelligent kids in the school. Very gregarious. Very polite. Hello, Miss. And how are you and everything, KT: Interesting how that works YV: And he made a fortune, KT: Wow. Um, What about where you grew up in Verdun? YV: Yeah. KT: Did you notice, did you notice anything about drugs there? YV: No, I can't say as I did. Even in. No, no, I think it was something that if it was done it was done quietly among friends. KT: Yeah. YV: It wasn't a, uh, you know, the whole park lighting up. Okay. It wasn't, uh, you know, uh, Woodstock or anything like that. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: No, everything was done quietly. You know, your friends, if you, if your, if it were your friends and you smoked a joint, okay. It was your friends. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. It wasn't, you know, the whole 200 people who are there KT: Yep. YV: with your friends, you know. KT: Um, so I'd like to transition to the female experience. YV: Oh my, okay. KT: Um, in, yeah, in your own words. What did feminism signify, um to you when you were in university? You, you said you went to an all, all girls university, right? Was that um present at all or it was kind of just whatever? 00:26:02 - YV: I don't, I don't think it was a major concern. Okay? I don't think feminism comes into play while you're in university with a bunch of females. Okay? It's only if you step out into a career or something, There's a lot of that shows up because you didn't get that kind of attitude. The men who are professors never had any of that. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: And we had a lot of women professors and they were like models for you. You know, KT: Yep. YV: uh one of my physics teacher uh was nine months pregnant, went and had the baby and was teaching back in two days. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. Like everybody said, was she really pregnant, you know, KT: [giggles] YV: kind of thing. KT: Yep. Yep. YV: But she was, you know, but on the other hand, Doctor Tasik, who was my biology professor, uh she was a very, very feminine you know, like to the point where, you know, she, she wouldn't give me an, she wouldn't raise, she wouldn't allow a person to pass. A course bacteriology because it would give me a 90 and she wouldn't allow that. YV: Now, why would you do that? You know? Is it because she's against high marks? I mean what's, what was the problem of, about her having a 90 you know, KT: Yeah. YV: and could never get an answer out of her, you know. KT: Mhm. YV: So, so it might have been very subtle. Okay. But it wasn't something that was promoted and it was so it wasn't something that, that we,we had to have uh other than that situation at Biochem and McGill with this guy KT: Yep. YV: until I finally said no way. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. And he backed off. KT: Yeah, what about, um, when you became a teacher? Uh Did you notice any of that with your, um, did you have any other colleagues that were women? Um And did you guys ever talk about things like that? 00:28:02 - YV: Um No, you got to remember. I'm 21 years old and I'm low man on the totem pole, KT: Yeah YV: you know, so somebody who's been there for 20 years, you don't, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, start up a lot of stuff. No, it, it was only when we, when, when Paul and I went to our, uh, Richmond regional. Okay. And I got involved in union stuff and got on what they call the school council. It was the equivalent of a student council only it's uh it's at the teacher level. Okay? And, or administrative level. And then, and then you would, you would take what you were learning through the union and then apply it to situations in the school. Okay. But you had to do it very, very carefully because a lot of there were men who thought that, as I said, I should have stayed home and, and raised more English kids for the English community. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. Which I, you know, if I, my husband and I said, if my husband and my father have no problem with my working, what do you? You know, KT: Yep. YV: you have no right to tell me what to do, you know. So it wasn't, it, it might have been like a lot of male teachers who were there who had wives who stayed at home and raised their kids. So it was a generational thing I, I would think KT: Mhm. YV: and as, as younger teachers came in, as the older teachers retired. Well, we didn't all think that way. You know, we all had, I remember there was a teacher in our school who did not have a checkbook, did not have a credit card. KT: Wow. YV: Okay. And this was, she came the year before Shane graduated, 86. Okay. And I remember myself and another female teacher said to her, you're going to apply for a credit card and then you're gonna go to the store and then you're gonna buy something and you're gonna charge it and then when the bill comes in, you're gonna pay for it. And now your credit line is established, Your 00:30:15 - KT: Yep. YV: credit history is established. And only then did she start to realize that Hey, I'm making money and I've got to take care of myself in that sense. And it's a good thing because her husband did some work on the roof and fell, he was tied, but he fell and his back hit the, the balcony railing and paralyzed him. Okay. KT: Oh wow. YV: So for two years, he was in on sick leave and he went back to work. He was a math teacher and there was an elevator in the school so he could drive and wheel himself into the elevator and up, he goes to his classroom. Okay. But it put a lot of burden on her and she had her financial stability because of what we had told her to do. KT: Yep. YV: So there were, this is the late eighties. So there were a lot of people who had really old fashioned ideas and then there were, you know, a couple of us in the staff room, we said no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that, KT: Yep. YV: you know, and how to save money and where to tax shelter it and all kinds of stuff like that. Okay. But we did it quietly. We didn't do it with men around. KT: So do you think it was more about just helping each other rather than kind of saying a big F U to the men? And like YV: I think it was more of a question of helping each other rather than, you know, you know, the thing is with a lot of, a lot of men, some of them would never have said a word, but there were others who would have poopooed the idea. Why do you want to do that? Why doesn't your husband do that? You know, KT: Yep. YV: Paul and I were married the second year. He, he went and got, went money, got money from the bank. And two days later, he could not tell me where he had spent the 200 bucks. Now, $200 way back in the early seventies is a lot of money. 00:32:04 - KT: Yeah. YV: And he looked at me and he said, I want you to take over the finances KT: Smart. YV: and he wasn't on allowance or anything. But whenever he wanted money, he could go at the bank. But I'd say to him, okay. What did you do? You put gas in the car? Did you buy your cigarettes? KT: Yep. YV: Did you go buy beer? Did you? Oh, okay, and he slowly learned. Okay. So this is where, where my involvement got into it KT: Yep. YV: because before that I didn't do a lot. Okay. And it's still my father who was illiterate, signed the checks, not my mother who was literate who could do math, who could do things like that? I couldn't get a loan. Uh, I had to have my husband sign for a loan. Okay. KT: Wow. That's not that long ago. YV: No, it wasn't that long ago. You know. Anyway. KT: Um. YV: So, feminism. Well, I think we just quietly worked away KT: Yep. YV: at what we could do. KT: Yep. YV: Okay, because it didn't rock the boat for anybody, you know? KT: So all the, all the protests would you say are more American? And YV: yeah. Well, maybe big city. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. KT: Yep. YV: As opposed to just being American, I think big city kind of thing because their ideas would have been more individual because you don't get that community kind of thing. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. And because uh in a small town, I mean, everybody knew everybody, everybody knew Paul and I, KT: Yep. YV: yeah, there goes Mr and Mrs Voisard you know, we didn't know who, who they were. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay, but they knew who we were, KT: Yep. YV: you know, so there's a lot of circumspect that you had to pay attention to in a small community as opposed to. So if you wanted to, you know, throw your bra around, it's much easier to do it in the city than to go down to the local cenotaph 00:34:09 - KT: yeah. YV: and, you know, swirl your bra because that was a square in, in Richmond and it was a cenotaph, you know, so, KT: um so we, we spoke about how being woman resulted in different treatment and expectations in classrooms. Um When you had those, those uh was it biochem YV: Hm KT: with um the YV: McGill students? KT: McGill students, um Did you notice any different treatment from the professors? Um, no? YV: No. Um, you don't do labs, do you? KT: No. YV: What happens is ok. In a lab? I, I'm going to assume it's the same thing for Abby. I don't know. But in a lab, um, you might have a 20 minute or 30 minute, uh, um, session, a teaching session before and then you give in the lab. KT: And then its just go do it YV: Go do it. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. So you had to read through the lab. You sort of knew what you were supposed to be working on KT: Mhm YV: because you just had a lecture on it. Okay. KT: Yep. YV: Um, but you, all, you had was a technician walking around to make sure that the sinks didn't clog or that you could get a particular chemical or whatever. KT: Mhm. YV: You just worked for three hours on this assignment and away you went, you know. KT: Mhm. Um. YV: So there was no, he didn't, like, I don't think I saw the professor at all in a lab. KT: Okay YV: Okay. YV: It would have been his fourth-year student or something who was a techie for the, for the day, KT: Yeah. Uh, when you were a teacher, YV: Mhm. KT: when you just started teaching. Did you? I know you taught high school kids. YV: Yeah. KT: So they're a little bit more, I guess, rebellious than, uh, than university. Um, but did you notice any difference from a treatment from the kids versus like, uh, how they would treat male, male teachers? Or? 00:36:10 - YV: I wouldn’t know, I wouldn’t know because, uh, your classroom is your classroom? You don't, you don't know what's KT: Yeah. YV: going on in, in the other classrooms, you know, you don't, and you don't see a lot of, uh, stuff in the hallway. KT: Okay. YV: Okay at the time. Okay. I mean, you weren't supposed to be in a hallway, period, you know, uh, you were walking down a hallway, somebody could stop you and say, what are you doing here? KT: Yeah. YV: You know, kind of thing. Okay. KT: Mhm YV: So, no, I, I'm gonna say no, I'm not aware of any, any differences from student to teacher. No. KT: Okay. Um Were there any, going back to when you were in university, YV: Right KT: um Were there any programs? Um You mentioned that there was not many of you in the science YV: Hm. KT: programs? Um Was there any like, were there any clubs going on at the time? Um YV: Hm. KT: I can't even think of an example of a club. YV: Yeah, I know. I know you're thinking of like a drama club, KT: Yeah stuff like that YV: choir, stuff like that. I don't know actually. There weren't, there weren't any for science. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. No, there aren't any for science. There might have been some in the art section in the B A section. KT: Yeah. YV: I don't, I don't know, but it wasn't a drama thing because I don't remember going to any drama productions. Okay. KT: Yep. YV: So my clubs would have been outside with my sports, KT: Yep. YV: with my town sports. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. 00:37:51 - KT: Um So historians have written a lot about the, what they call the counterculture revolution. Uh Meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle, both uh at university and back home in, in Verdun? Um where did you like? Did you see yourselves as needing to do anything to, to create a more just society and a better world like uh for me growing up as, as an example, um the whole climate change thing is, is, you know, big like a lot of people my age like, oh you gotta recycle, recycle, recycle climate change, you know, was there anything like that when you were? YV: I'm gonna say no, no, I think, I think a lot of it was uh educational reform at the time KT: Okay. YV: Okay and only those people who were in education or who had kids in the school system, were aware of it. Okay. Um the, the French and English divide was coming into the fore, you know, um um where the French sector, you became a doctor or a lawyer or you worked KT: Mhm YV: Okay. So, you know, in many respects, it was exactly the same as the English sector. If you had like, I have a niece who has three Children, all of them went to private college, private high school KT: Mhm. YV: and then went to private CEGEPs in the French sector. KT: Yeah. YV: And are now, you know, either at uh actually two of them studied in the university in the States. Now, the fact that they went to a French private place. KT: Yeah. YV: Got them the English. KT: Interesting. YV: Okay, because you don't get the amount of English in the public system, in the French system as you do in the private sector. KT: Yeah. 00:39:59 - YV: Okay. So that's why, and I mean, private, I mean, $35,000 a year, KT: Yeah. YV: I don't mean the three or $4000 place where you can go to quote what they call a private French high school. KT: Yeah YV: Uh uh. I mean, the really okay, there was a lot of money that was spent and a lot of education. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. So, so there was not a lot of, I mean, climate change was not even an issue. Okay. Uh, not even, uh, food pricing was not an issue. Uh, even cars and, and smog or anything like that was not an issue. Half the population of Quebec didn't have a car. We used public transportation KT: Yep. YV: to get everywhere in the city. Okay. KT: Mhm. YV: Yeah. So, no, I don't, I don't think there was like one major issue that people were aware of. Like, I mean, Quebec started their own income tax form in 60 67 68 72. And I don't even remember a buzz about it. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. They, they had their own QPP set up KT: Yep. YV: and their own income tax set up KT: Interesting YV: and I don't remember anybody making a fuss about it. I think, I think a lot of it has to do with the very patriarchal society like, uh, today the CAQ, um, you know, it's Legault, who decides everything. It isn't his cabinet, bullshit. KT: Yeah. YV: He's the one who's saying yes. No, or whatever it is. KT: Mhm. Did you notice anything, um, like today there's a lot of, um, social justice for, uh, gay people YV: Yeah, no. KT: and black people and all that stuff. YV: No. KT: Was there any? None of that at all? YV: No. No. In fact, a lot of it was probably frowned on. KT: Yeah. 00:41:58 - YV: Okay, far more. I mean, uh, um, I don't know how many blacks were allowed in to quote the contiki. I like using the contiki because it was such an English bar KT: Mhm. YV: kind of thing. Okay. You know, they had their own establishments, you know, for going out for all kinds of different things, you know, and as I say, I don't even remember blacks living in my neighborhood in Verdun. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. And the same thing applies to Richmond. It wasn't until many years later that we actually had a colored person at the, at the school, attending the school. Okay. So Shane and Jason never grew up. They were aware because we'd bring them everywhere we went. Okay. So every time we came to Montreal and went out to a movie or stayed at a hotel over the weekend for swimming and hockey tournament, that's when they would see another okay, culture. KT: Mhm. YV: But it was, you know, in hockey or whatever. Okay. KT: Yeah. YV: There wasn't anything in, in Richmond and there was very little in Sherbrooke KT: And none of that was on purpose, right? It was just, YV: No, it was just the way it was. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. Now, I can remember, um, remember when the riots were held in the late sixties in the States, L A blew up, KT: Yep. YV: okay. Chicago blew up. KT: Yep. YV: New Jersey. Okay. We would have, we had a lot of visitors that came from the States and a lot of them were black and, uh, I mean, they must have had money to come to Canada and stay for whatever it was. But they were the only ones that we saw in our restaurants. We didn't normally have black people who actually came to the restaurant to the A&W. KT: Hm. YV: Okay. But A&W is a chain in the States and they're familiar with it. Okay. KT: Yep. 00:44:00 - YV: So they, because there was no Burger King. Burger King didn't come to Canada. Oh. Oh, Jason was born in 74 75. Okay. Burger King was still in the States, didn’t come to Canada KT: Yep. YV: and mcdonald's. I don't even know if mcdonald's was around at the time. So A&W was okay.And that was a familiar chain KT: Mhm YV: and I think that's why we got, you know, KT: Yep, interesting. YV: so, no, no, there wasn't. We, we, we just didn't have, KT: Yep. YV: we just didn't meet, we didn't get together for anything. KT: Hm. Um, to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? Like YV: I have no idea. KT: Yeah, YV: no idea about that. Like, um, I don't think mom and dad ever had anything concrete to say about any of that, you know, when Lilian started going out or when Marcel started going or I was going out, there was no, you know, KT: There was no trying to control? YV: No, no, no, no, no. I think we were raised to the point where we knew, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, that there were limits, KT: Yep. YV: kind of thing KT: Yep. YV: that, okay, and we just absorb the limits and use the limits. Uh, you know, without even thinking. KT: Yeah. YV: Okay. KT: Um, were you in tune with the political system at all? YV: I'm gonna say, no, I was not. I mean, I might have known who was the prime minister at the time and stuff like that. But apart from that, no, and it only, you know, at Saint Joe's when I did my Bachelor of Education when the parent report came in and that was only because we had to take a history of education program. Okay. Of course,there's something like along that line KT: Mhm. YV: apart from that. No. No, 00:45:57 - KT: Interesting YV: it was not. Um, no, KT: it wasn't big. YV: It wasn't big. Like, I didn't even know there was like who the mayor of Verdun was like, and we lived across the street from the city hall. KT: Yeah. YV: no, politics was not, KT: not as big as it is. YV: No. KT: Do you think that has to do with the connectedness of today's society? Um, YV: Well, I think, I think, yes, I think the fact that so much can happen and within two minutes everybody knows what's going on. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. Um, and I'm sure that a lot of that had to do with the, uh, Vietnam and the reporting of Vietnam and then, and then Nixon getting into the troubles that he, and, and then, you know, like all of a sudden there's a trial on TV, like, I mean, the judge was right there and they were, you know, you know, questioning John Dean and all of the, the people who worked for, for Nixon, you know, like that never happened anywhere at any time. And then all of a sudden,you know, KT: Boom. YV: boom, all of this stuff started coming out, you know, and it may have raised some questions about what was going on in the Quebec thing or, you know, you know, Renee Levesque coming up as, uh, you know, the PQ and, and that kind of thing. But, uh, in the early seventies, no. KT: Did you, um, what was the first time you voted if you voted at all? YV: Oh, yeah, I, I voted when I was, had the right to vote. KT: Okay. YV: I voted all the time.I've always voted. KT: And was it more, um, you're voting for the specific party or you, were you voting for the person? YV: It depended. KT: Okay. YV: Okay, um, but for the most part it was in the federal, it was for the party in the provincial. It, it varied because we didn't have a PQ involved in this. Okay. KT: Mhm. 00:47:57 - YV: So you could, uh, you know, legitimately, you know, vote for an individual. KT: Yep. YV: And then later on, uh in Richmond, for example, uh even in municipal politics, it was for the individual. Okay? And then for the provincial, it was, that was political, that was the party. But at the federal, it was what was on the slate, not the people, KT: Mhm YV: but what the things were on the slate. Okay. So it, it changed. Ok. From doing, it's something in a very specific way to making more, uh, decisive decisions and knowing that if you went one way, your vote wouldn't count for anything, but it would at least show that there was a dissenting, there were dissenting voices. KT: Yep. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, so you said that you weren't really aware of or in tune with the political system? Did you know at all if, um, like for me growing up, I've always, uh, the West Island has always been very liberal, right? Like I voted when I was 18. Um, it didn't matter who I voted for. Liberals are going to win. Did you kind of have the same attitude in Verdun? Um, or was it kind of changing, you know? YV: No, I didn't vote in Verdun. I don't think, I, I don't remember voting in Verdun. KT: Okay. YV: Okay. And I don't think it's because I didn't vote. I think it was because there was no election. Okay. KT: Interesting. YV: Yeah, I don't think, okay, because then I moved KT: Yeah. YV: to Richmond. KT: Yeah. YV: And that's where the voting took place. Okay. And that's where you voted? Okay. Well, a lot of it was politics. A lot of it was, uh, French versus English. A lot of it was Bill 101. you know, there was a lot of stuff that was going on at the time and that sort of decided how you were going to vote. 00:50:12 - KT: Interesting. Um, historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill legalization of abortion and dissemination of the free love ideology, changed gender relations and dating practices. Um do you agree with that statement? YV: It probably did at a philosophical level. I don't know if it did, like at a KT: Practically YV: practical, you know, KT: Yeah YV: I used birth control pills just like, you know, KT: Mhm. YV: everybody else, you know, kind of thing. And, and then I almost got, I thought I was pregnant the third time and I wasn't OK. But then that's when we decided that I couldn't. That was, that's an interesting point. I could not have my tubes tied because I was not 30 KT: Mhm. YV: and I didn't have three Children. And I was told that categorically by the doctor. KT: Hm. YV: So when I, when I went home and told Paul, I said, I can't have my tubes tied or whatever. He said, all right, then he'll have a vasectomy. And now both, both of the boys have had vasectomies. Okay? Two kids. And that was that was it KT: Hm. YV: no more. Okay? KT: Interesting. YV: Yeah, it was a really, you know, like, I mean, I think that was a real shocker KT: Yeah. YV: to me to have a doctor. Tell me that I couldn't decide that there was some autocrat someplace in the health department who said I couldn't do this? KT: Wow. YV: Yeah. KT: Um, you said dating was much more formal. YV: Mhm. KT: Um, was that the same in university as it was? So, when you went to Richmond, were you already with 00:52:00 - YV: Paul KT: Paul? YV: Yeah KT: Okay. So where, where did you meet him? YV: at my at Bachelor of Education at Saint Joe's? KT: Okay. YV: Okay. He had done a four year program at Saint Mary's in Halifax KT: Mhm. YV: and didn't know what he was going to do afterwards. So he did, did the education program. Meantime, he decided he wanted to go to Oxford or Cambridge and do a year of study there. KT: Mhm. YV: And he got his professor from Saint Mary's to contact Cambridge or, or what you do is you apply and one of them will take you not both. So almost like the CEGEP system, KT: Yeah YV: you know, in Quebec KT: Yep. YV: you send out the form and then they tell you kind of thing. Okay. Well, the same thing. So he got accepted at Oxford. KT: Wow. YV: And so after we graduated, I went to work and he went to Oxford for a year and studied anthropology. He did anthropology. KT: That's interesting. YV: And then, and then when he came back, we both uh looked for jobs and he had a sister who, who had a friend who was a psychologist at the Eastern Townships regional school board at the time it was called and they were opening up Richmond Regional high school and were looking for teachers KT: Hm. YV: and so we applied and we got the job. I got a science and he got history. KT: Wow. Um, how did your generation look at family and marriage? Was it like a, a necessity? Um, that it was like, or, or, or sorry. Was it like that's just what you did? That's just what you were going to do. YV: That's what you did. Yeah, at the time. Although, um, I had a lot of people at the school who didn't get married but lived together. 00:54:00 - KT: Mhm. YV: Okay. Um, I remember a secretary, you know, one day just said out of the blue to me and I'm not having any Children, Yvette and I looked at her and I said, I don't give a shit KT: [giggles] YV: that you're not gonna have children I thought not my problem. KT: Yeah. YV: Well, everybody thinks I should. Well, if you don't want any, please don't have any, KT: Yep. YV: you know? KT: Yep. YV: Oh, you don't mind? why the hell should I not? I could not get over that because this was a, a strong minded woman. KT: Mhm. YV: Obviously, her family had been at her to have children and she didn't want any. KT: Mhm. YV: So I think, I think, I think expectations started out where you follow the, the same old rule, you know, you got married you had children, you bla bla bla bla and then I think that slowly began to loosen. Okay. So, so people lived together and they had Children but they didn't get married KT: Mhm. YV: or they lived together, they didn't have any children. Okay. Um, the other thing is in teaching, you come across so many bad situations that it, you know, opens your eyes to a lot of different situations that, you know, you really makes you question some of the things that you might want to decide to do, you know. KT: Yeah. YV: Um Yeah. KT: Um, moving on to the whole um sexuality and harassment thing. YV: Hm. KT: So, like, like I said, if you don't feel comfortable answering any of these, just, YV: I don't, I don't remember being involved in any, anything like that that I would call. KT: Yep. YV: Okay. KT: Um, YV: Patriarchal. Yes. OK. In the sense that uh I'm the boss and it's always a male 00:56:00 - KT: Yep. YV: and this is what you're going to do, but I wouldn't attribute that to being uh sexual harassment. I didn't get that kind of thing even in the restaurant. I never got that KT: interesting. Um So now nowadays there's uh a lot uh being done to police uh sexual harassment. There was none of that going on back then? YV: Not that I know of. KT: Yeah. YV: you know, I mean, I never encountered the police for, for anything, you know, like they were there or they weren't there, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, KT: Um, YV: they were the good guys anyway, we all, you know, the police were good guys. Fire people were good guys. The ambulance people were good guys. You know, you didn't have to question everything, KT: Yeah YV: you know, you didn't, that wasn't, you know, KT: So its changed. YV: Yeah. You know, anybody, like, like, you know, Jason had a very bad accident, uh, when he was out with his friends, KT: Mhm. YV: you know, and the friends didn't know what to do with it. So they stopped a car on the highway and they put him in the car and, and they phoned us and told us the guy drove him to the hospital. Do you know what which hospital? No. KT: [giggles] YV: Paul and I damn near Anyway, we found him KT: Yep. YV: at a hospital and somebody had dropped him off at the hospital. Okay. And we have no idea who that good Samaritan was, KT: Yeah. YV: but he was 12 years old. Okay. So that would have been in 86. I tell you every bad idea went through KT: Yeah YV: our heads until we found him, KT: Yeah. YV: you know, and, and they were, you know, see the kids were perfectly okay because they trusted this adult in the car KT: Yeah YV: and you, you know, like we, we never said anything wrong. We never, you know, gave them a hard time or, or anything like that. We just kept our fingers crossed, you know, and 00:58:04 - KT: it's, uh, very different from today. YV: Yes. 00:58:06 - KT: Um, I don't, I think we're running out of time. Yeah, we've basically run out of time. So, um, okay, thank you. And Transcription Translation KT : Donc, euh, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation construite autour des automobiles ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. KT : Euh, vous n'avez pas grandi à Ottawa mais à Verdun, euh, est-ce que Verdun était bilingue ? YV : Oui KT : Euh, à l'époque. YV : Oui, oui. KT : Hum. Nous voulons donc mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient en quelque sorte liés les uns aux autres. YV : Eh bien, ce n'était pas le cas. Autant que je me souvienne, nous n'avons pas participé à quoi que ce soit avec la communauté française. YV : Um En tant qu'étudiant, c'était complètement séparé, les systèmes scolaires étaient complètement séparés. Si nous faisions du sport à l'école, nous jouions contre les écoles anglaises, nous ne jouions pas contre les écoles françaises. KT : D'ACCORD. YV : D'accord, ce qui était intégré, c'était le hockey. Mon frère jouait et il y avait toujours des joueurs français dans l'équipe. D'accord, donc peut-être avec la section des garçons ou peut-être à cause du type de sport, il y avait plus d'interaction. YV : Euh, ma mère et mon père, euh, les voisins étaient tous anglais. D'accord. YV : Euh, c'est la grande bande dont nous faisions partie ? Nous étions environ 12 enfants, la plupart d'entre eux étaient anglais. Les parents étaient peut-être français, d'accord, mais les enfants, tous, nous avons tous grandi, ils sont devenus anglais. Nous ne sommes pas devenus français. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord ? Ils sont devenus anglais. YV : Et nous rejoignions notre gang. Il n'y avait donc pas beaucoup de partage, KT : Oui. YV : Et c'est probablement une partie du problème qui a mené à la révolution des citations. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, oui. KT : Pensez-vous qu'ils sont devenus anglais parce que leurs parents considéraient l'anglais comme un bon moyen de, euh ? YV : Je, je, je ne suis pas très sûr. YV : Je sais qu'une fois, j'ai postulé pour un emploi dans une banque et j'avais écrit ma lettre de candidature en français et on m'a téléphoné immédiatement pour m'embaucher. Et on m'a téléphoné immédiatement pour m'embaucher. KT : Hm. YV : Mais je n'avais pas un bon bagage linguistique, oral. KT : D'accord. YV : J'ai donc dû dire au gars que, d'accord, mais il cherchait des personnes bilingues qui pouvaient parler français pour travailler dans la banque en tant qu'employé de bureau, KT : Oui. YV : et il ne les trouvait pas. KT : Donc, YV : Il ne les trouvait pas. YV : Tu veux sortir ? YV : Vous savez. Il y avait donc un problème avec l'amitié. Je veux dire, il y avait un fossé, il y en avait un. YV : Allez, tu veux sortir ? Allez, viens. YV : Désolé. Je ne m'attendais pas à avoir KT : um uh huh. Oui, c'est vrai. YV : Même quand je travaillais comme serveuse, tout était en anglais. Les menus étaient en anglais. Je servais en anglais. Les gens commandaient en anglais même s'ils étaient français. D'accord. KT : Quand cela a-t-il changé ? YV : Eh bien, nous, vous savez, ils ont commencé à parler de l'utilisation des mots français appropriés pour, comme, alors j'ai commencé à utiliser Guimauve pour guimauve et les Français ne comprenaient pas de quoi je parlais. KT : Oui, [rires] YV : Donc, vous savez, il y avait tellement d'anglais, je pense, dans leur langue qu'ils utilisaient nos mots bien plus que nous n'utilisions de termes français. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Mais évidemment, ça a commencé à changer à ce moment-là parce que c'est en, euh, 19 Duplessis n'était plus là. Bourrassa était là, alors ils ont probablement commencé à ce moment-là, vous savez, à penser à la culture française et à des choses comme ça. KT : J'ai grandi à Point Clare, dans l'ouest de l'île. Et la façon dont j'ai grandi, c'est que tout ce qui est à l'ouest de Dorval est anglais, n'est-ce pas ? KT : Anglais et pas riches. Mais vous avez, vous avez de l'argent, vous savez. Um et tout ce qui est à l'est est beaucoup plus français et ils n'ont pas autant d'argent. KT : Diriez-vous que c'est un peu la même chose ou que c'est similaire ? YV : Oui, oui, oui. A Verdun, c'était divisé de telle façon que euh il y avait un endroit appelé Crawford Park à cette extrémité, et c'était très anglais et il y avait beaucoup plus d'argent que là où je vivais. D'accord ? YV : Je vivais là où il y avait trois étages dans l'immeuble. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord ? Et donc les immeubles sont à la fois français et anglais. Par exemple, nous vivions au premier étage et nous étions anglais, mais les gens à l'étage étaient français. Nous étions anglais, mais les gens à l'étage étaient français. Ce genre de choses. YV : Il y avait donc une banque mixte et plus loin, vers l'est de Montréal. Vous parlez de Pointe Saint Charles. KT : Oui. YV : Plus français. KT : D'accord. YV : Donc, c'est passé de très, très anglais, à un mélange, puis à très, très français. KT : Intéressant. KT : Avez-vous remarqué des différences économiques ? Par exemple, les Anglais avaient-ils plus d'argent ou ? YV : Ils avaient, ils avaient, ils avaient une voiture. KT : D'accord. YV : Ma mère, mon père et ma mère n'avaient pas de voiture. Les enfants étaient mieux habillés. Ok, que nous. D'accord. YV : Euh, ils allaient, euh, à des choses comme, euh, l'auditorium ou le cinéma ou quelque chose comme ça beaucoup plus souvent que nous. YV : Ils ne participaient pas à la, à la situation du parc. D'accord, le terrain de jeu. YV : Verdun avait un terrain de jeu très, très actif pour les enfants. Vous pouviez aller au terrain de jeu et y rester de 9 h à 9 h et il y avait, il y avait des surveillants. YV : J'étais surveillant, il y avait des surveillants toute la journée qui faisaient des quarts de huit heures et toutes les heures, il y avait une activité prévue. Il pouvait s'agir d'art, de danse, d'emmener les enfants à un match de baseball, vous savez, un match de shag bet, de les emmener nager, toutes sortes de choses. D'accord. YV : Là où je travaillais, il y avait 100% de monde. A l'autre bout, ce n'était pas le cas. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, parce qu'ils pouvaient, ils avaient peut-être un chalet et pouvaient partir le week-end et des choses comme ça. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord KT : Euh, il est évident qu'il y avait beaucoup moins d'électronique dans la société à l'époque où vous étiez à l'université. Hum, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou en aviez-vous ? YV : Eh bien, au lycée ou à l'université ? KT : Euh, euh, l'université. YV : L'université ? Oh, celle-là est difficile, parce que je n'avais pas beaucoup de temps libre. D'accord. YV : Les cours, parfois à cause des laboratoires, comme Abby, duraient longtemps. Je n'avais pas de cours du soir, mais quand je rentrais à la maison, je devais faire mes devoirs et mes travaux. Je n'avais donc pas beaucoup de temps libre. Et quand j'ai commencé à travailler, c'était encore moins parce que je travaillais le vendredi soir, toute la journée du samedi et toute la journée du dimanche, puis j'ai commencé. YV : Je n'avais donc pas beaucoup de temps libre. YV : Je me débrouillais pour aller au match de hockey avec Morris, au cinéma. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, mais à part ça, pas grand-chose. Et bien sûr, peut-être le mardi soir, il y avait des matchs de basket. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, et puis au printemps et à l'automne, vous savez, le base-ball, KT : Oui. YV : Mais c'était très souvent l'après-midi parce que tous les parcs n'avaient pas d'éclairage pour travailler le soir. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord, donc vous deviez jouer pendant le.., KT : Oui. YV : L'après-midi. Oui, l'après-midi. KT : Hum. YV : Je lisais beaucoup. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, j'ai beaucoup lu de mon côté. Hum, KT : C'était des livres de la bibliothèque ou ? YV : Certains venaient de la, beaucoup venaient de la bibliothèque. Pour mon anniversaire et pour Noël, ma mère m'achetait des livres, mais je lui disais où aller. Et il n'y avait qu'une seule librairie anglaise que l'on fréquentait, et c'était celle des classiques. YV : D'accord. Qui a été reprise par Indigo plus tard. D'accord, mais c'était il y a longtemps. YV : C'est dans la rue Sainte-Catherine, près de Bishops. D'accord. KT : Quand vous parliez des matchs de hockey, c'était les Habs ? YV : Oui, mais j'étais un fan de Boston. KT : Ohh. YV : Je le suis toujours. J'ai toujours été, toujours, toujours, toujours, ouais, Morris était un, euh, Canadien de Montréal et mon, mon père était un fervent fan du Canadien de Montréal. Ma mère s'en fichait, et mes soeurs aussi. KT : Non. YV : Non. D'accord. Et puis les deux garçons se sont mis au hockey et une fois qu'ils en ont eu fini avec le hockey, Paul et moi ne sommes jamais retournés voir un autre match. KT : Hm. YV : C'est tout. KT : Était-ce aussi important qu'aujourd'hui ? comme les Habs ? YV : Oh, oui. Oh, oui. KT : C'était l'époque. YV : Oui, c'était les années où il y avait peu de règles sur la glace. Ok, je veux dire, euh, les casques, les joueurs ne portaient pas de casque. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, c'est complètement différent. Même si les enfants portaient des casques, je suis presque sûr que Marcel avait un casque quand il jouait, vous savez, au hockey improvisé, KT : Mhm. YV : Personne ne portait de casque. KT : Oui. YV : Non, KT : Hum. YV : Non. KT : Euh, donc pour passer au campus, euh, où, quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et aussi en dehors du campus ? YV : Bien sûr, il y avait le bâtiment de l'Union à McGill Okay. Il faut se rappeler qu'on n'avait pas le droit d'entrer dans les bars. Donc, vous savez, c'était, euh, vous étiez contrôlé, KT : Oui. YV : On était contrôlé tout le temps. YV : On vous contrôlait tout le temps. KT : Mhm. YV : Si vous entriez. Ok. Donc c'était difficile, difficile d'y aller. Il aurait fallu que ce soit, quelque chose comme un restaurant où, vous savez, un restaurant local. Vous n'auriez pas été autorisé à entrer dans un restaurant au centre-ville de Montréal. D'accord, oui, l'un des, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous ne pouviez pas entrer dans le contiki, par exemple, qui était un bar et un restaurant, vous deviez montrer votre, KT : UNE PIÈCE D'IDENTITÉ. YV : Une pièce d'identité pour entrer KT : Oui. YV : Pour y entrer, vous savez. Donc, donc, euh, donc, euh, les lieux de rencontre auraient été des zones locales où, comme je l'ai dit, la promenade KT : Oui. YV : et le cinéma et, vous savez, les endroits autour du, d'un terrain de baseball ou où les gens patinaient et jouaient au hockey pendant l'hiver, vous savez. YV : Donc, hum, même, même à l'université, je veux dire, j'avais 20 ans quand j'ai obtenu mon diplôme universitaire, je n'avais pas le droit d'entrer dans le, je veux dire, j'y suis allé, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : mais, vous savez, si on me donnait une carte, c'était, c'était fini, au revoir ! Vous voyez, KT : Yep. YV : Je tenais le haut du pavé. KT : Y avait-il des endroits où l'on pouvait se retrouver sur le campus ? Euh... YV : Non, pas chez nous. Euh, à McGill. Je ne me souviens pas à McGill, je ne me souviens pas. Hum, il n'y avait rien au bâtiment médical et il n'y avait rien à Loyola dont je me souvienne. YV : D'accord, donc il n'y avait que l'Union Building. KT : C'est que je sais, euh, les campus ont maintenant des endroits construits pour, pour traîner, vous savez ? Est-ce que c'était le cas à l'époque ? YV : Non, KT : Non YV : Non, je pense que c'est venu comme un KT : Plus tard. YV : Oui. KT : Oui, d'accord. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, à quel point Marianopolis était-elle intégrée sur le plan linguistique ? YV : Pas du tout. KT : Pas du tout ? YV : Oui. Non, c'était l'anglais. KT : Oui. Hum, YV : C'était anglais. KT : Euh, est-ce qu'il y avait des Français, euh, des gens qui, qui ont essayé d'aller là-bas ? YV : Oh, je ne sais pas. KT : D'accord. YV : Je ne le sais pas. Et je n'ai pas, comme, je n'ai jamais eu d'étudiant français, euh, de camarade de classe. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, dans mes cours de sciences ? KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Il y en avait peut-être dans les programmes b A. KT : Mhm. YV : Je ne sais pas. Je n'ai pas traîné avec eux. Nous étions trop occupés. On n'avait pas assez de temps pour les fréquenter, vous savez ? Alors, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais pas. KT : Euh, la culture de la fête à laquelle nous faisons référence aujourd'hui, euh, se réfère aux activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décrirais-tu cela ? Il ne s'agit pas forcément de fêtes, mais comme vous avez mentionné la promenade, euh, et à quel point c'était populaire ? YV : Eh bien, c'était, c'était un lieu de rendez-vous pour, euh, vous savez, du printemps à l'automne. Ok, parce qu'il a fermé, le bâtiment, le bâtiment de la promenade... KT : Mhm. YV : Il a fermé pendant l'hiver. Mais quand vous y alliez, il y avait toujours le beau, la beauté. Euh, même si vous ne pouviez pas, vous ne pouviez pas boire à l'intérieur. Je veux dire, je ne dis pas qu'il n'y avait pas d'alcool à l'intérieur, mais il y avait un parc tout autour. KT : Mhm. Donc vous pouviez, vous savez, participer à la musique, participer à la musique qui venait de là parce que c'était souvent un DJ ou un groupe populaire dans la région. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. C'était donc un de ces endroits où vous, vous savez, vous, vous voyez dans un film où les filles sont toutes habillées et traînent et dansent sur l'herbe ou quoi que ce soit d'autre qui ki ce genre d'association. Rien de plus, de plus formel que cela. Et bien souvent, il s'agissait simplement de groupes d'enfants. Donc, dans ma bande, nous étions, bon Dieu, j'essaie de réfléchir. Nous devions être 15, 15 personnes. YV : Nous étions des garçons et des filles, KT : Mhm. YV : Mais on ne se mettait pas par deux, garçons et filles. Tout le monde se rencontrait, KT : Oui. YV : On allait faire quelque chose, puis on rentrait à la maison et le lendemain, on se rencontrait à nouveau. Parfois, c'était juste un match de football ou on allait tous à la piscine ou au cinéma, mais ce n'était pas untel ou untel qui était avec quelqu'un d'autre et... KT : Oui. YV : Donc non, ce n'était rien de tout cela. YV : D'accord ? Mais c'était, vous savez, quand j'avais 18 ans, vous savez, ce genre de choses. KT : Mhm YV : Il n'y avait pas d'appariement et j'imagine que cela s'est poursuivi sur la promenade, d'accord ? YV : Jusqu'à ce que, vous savez, je veux dire, les gens se marient quand ils sont assez jeunes, vous savez, beaucoup de mes amis étaient mariés avant d'avoir 20 ans, vous savez. KT : Wow. YV : Donc, oui, KT : Très différent, très différent d'aujourd'hui. YV : Oui, très différent d'aujourd'hui parce qu'à l'époque, c'est ce que vous faisiez, KT : Oui. YV : On se mariait, puis on avait des enfants et on recommençait le cycle, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. KT : Euh, y avait-il des fêtes comme celles auxquelles on pense aujourd'hui, euh, quand on est à l'université, ou était-ce plutôt au bar ? C'est ça ? Il n'y avait pas de fêtes à la maison. Il y avait YV : Non, non, il n'y en avait pas. Je n'ai jamais été chez l'un de mes camarades de classe, KT : Mhm. chez eux. Et je n'ai jamais, non, pas un seul KT : Hm. YV : pas chez Dana, pas chez Christine. Non, non, non, jamais. KT : Donc tous les, tous les, les lieux de rencontre étaient à l'extérieur de, YV : En dehors de l'école et dans votre propre quartier. Pas, pas euh vous n'aviez pas de lieu commun où vous vous retrouviez. KT : Alors, vous aviez des amis différents à l'école et des amis différents là où vous avez grandi ? YV : Oui. KT : Est-ce qu'ils se mélangeaient ? YV : Non. KT : Y avait-il quelqu'un avec qui vous aviez grandi ? Et ils allaient à la même école ? YV : Euh, Gail, j'ai grandi avec Gail et elle est allée à Marianapolis aussi, mais dans le programme artistique. KT : D'accord. YV : Je ne l'ai donc pas vue. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, Christine a suivi le programme artistique. Joyce est allée dans le programme artistique. YV : Il n'y avait pas beaucoup de gens qui allaient dans le programme scientifique. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, donc une fois qu'on est arrivé et qu'on s'est dit bonjour le matin ou qu'on a pris une tasse de café ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, on ne les a jamais vus ? Vous ne les avez jamais vus ? KT : Oui. YV : Et, et nous avions toujours un laboratoire, nous avions toujours des laboratoires. Alors vous, vous entriez dans le café à quatre heures de l'après-midi et il n'y avait personne, KT : [rires] YV : Il n'y avait que les scientifiques. KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, nous sommes tous en train de faire du travail de laboratoire KT : [rires] YV : ou on fait tous des rapports de laboratoire ou on fait des putains de maths. On faisait tellement de maths, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. YV : Alors, non, c'est vraiment, vraiment intéressant quand j'y pense parce que, euh, quand vous, ok, vous entrez par la porte et il y a un vestiaire et puis vous montez les escaliers, il y a des toilettes et puis ils ont des machines à café et, vous savez, comme un distributeur automatique, KT : Mhm. YV : Pas de la nourriture, du café, peut-être des boissons non alcoolisées. YV : D'accord, et puis vous alliez dans ce qu'on appelait la cafétéria. Ce côté était le côté art et ce côté était le côté science. KT : C'était fait exprès ou juste ? YV : Non, c'est juste la façon dont ça s'est passé. Je pense que c'est parce qu'on se promenait en blouse blanche toute la journée parce qu'on était, et on sentait parce que chaque laboratoire produisait quelque chose qui empestait l'endroit, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, et vous. Ma, même ma mère dirait la même chose. KT : [rires] YV : Elle montrait l'arrière et disait, prenez vos affaires là-bas, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, nous étions si, si mauvais, vous savez. YV : Je pense que c'est, et puis ça a empiré dans le sens où tu t'impliquais davantage dans tes cours de sciences et ton laboratoire, et eux s'impliquaient davantage dans leur truc, et tu voyais de moins en moins les amis que tu avais au lycée. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, mais vous ne vous êtes pas fait beaucoup d'amis sociaux à l'université, comme moi, KT : Mhm. YV : Je, vous savez, je partais le vendredi après-midi et j'allais travailler, vous savez, donc il n'y avait pas beaucoup de temps pour les relations sociales et ce genre de choses, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez. KT : Euh, je sais que la guerre du Vietnam est arrivée un peu plus tard. Hum, et, vous savez, le Canada, nous n'y participions pas. Mais que pensiez-vous de la guerre du Vietnam ? Saviez-vous quelque chose à ce sujet ? YV : Eh bien, j'en savais quelque chose dans le sens où mon petit ami est allé, a été enrôlé là-bas. Il y avait trois gars de ma région qui traînaient ensemble et qui se sont enrôlés en même temps. D'accord. YV : Morris a été tué. Les deux autres ne l'ont pas été. YV : Euh, mais j'étais au courant, euh, de la guerre à cette époque, mais il n'y avait rien à la télévision, jusqu'à plus tard. D'accord, avec Walter Conkright et Tom Brokaw et quelques-uns de ces gars de CBS. D'accord. YV : N'oubliez pas que nous n'avions pas Internet. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. YV : Et si j'avais de la chance, je voyais les nouvelles à la télévision, parce que je devais compter sur la radio ou, ou je rentrais à la maison à sept heures du soir et les nouvelles étaient terminées parce que les nouvelles étaient diffusées de 18 h à 19 h à la télévision. D'accord. YV : Ce n'était pas, euh, vous n'aviez pas CNN qui présentait les nouvelles toute la journée. KT : Oui. YV : Cela n'arrivait pas. D'accord. Les nouvelles n'étaient pas diffusées de 6 à 7 et de 11 à 12. KT : Y avait-il quelque chose dans les magazines que vous disiez lire ? YV : Oui. Et Time Magazine, Time écrivait des choses sur le Vietnam, mais ils écrivaient ce qu'ils avaient à écrire, vous savez, donc on n'entendait pas beaucoup parler de ce qui se passait. On n'entendait pas parler du nombre de morts. On n'entendait pas parler du napalm qui était largué. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord ? Beaucoup de choses ne sont apparues que lorsque Nixon est arrivé et a commencé à envahir le Cambodge pour essayer d'atteindre le Vietnam. D'accord. C'est à ce moment-là que les ordures ont commencé à apparaître et que les sacs mortuaires ont commencé à être ramenés à la maison KT : Oui. YV : Et c'était à la télévision, où l'on voyait les cercueils descendre de l'avion. Je pense que c'est à ce moment-là que les gens ont commencé à comprendre que les Américains n'allaient pas gagner cette guerre. KT : Oui. KT : Y avait-il des Vietnamiens ou des Asiatiques avec qui vous avez grandi ou avec qui vous êtes allé à l'école ? YV : Non, KT : Donc, YV : Non. Il y avait un quartier chinois ? D'accord. Mais, et, d'accord, connaissez-vous Montréal ? KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, Atwater ? KT : Oui. YV : Ok. Tout ce quartier était un quartier noir. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, et Chinatown était plus à l'est et au sud. Je ne pense pas avoir eu un seul élève noir en classe. Mon école. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord, et certainement pas un Asiatique. Je ne me souviens pas que nous ayons eu des Polonais, KT : Mhm. YV : Des Hongrois, des Tchèques, des Allemands, certainement beaucoup d'Anglais. Pas de Français. KT : Non. YV : Non, il y avait peut-être des gens qui parlaient français mais ils n'étaient pas français. KT : Oui. YV : Français. Ok. Donc, non. D'accord. KT : Euh, donc il y a eu euh, des artistes de rock and roll. YV : Hm. KT : dans les années 60, n'est-ce pas ? YV : Hm. KT : En y repensant, les gens disent qu'ils ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation et que c'était une façon de se rebeller contre leurs parents. YV : Oh oui Joan Baez et, et tous ces types, oui KT : qui l'ont fait, YV : Um KT : Qu'est-ce que vous en avez pensé ? YV : On aimait la musique, mais je ne sais pas si on pensait que c'était personnel, je ne pense pas que ça m'encourageait à, vous savez, à me battre contre quoi que ce soit, KT : Oui. YV : ou rien de ce genre. Vous savez, KT : Mhm. YV : Je pense que beaucoup de gens comme moi pensaient que c'était un problème américain, KT : D'accord. YV : Pas un problème canadien parce que, eh bien, le Canada a peut-être soutenu verbalement. Ils n'ont rien fait. Je veux dire, ils, vous savez, dans ce sens, ok. Et les gens qui se sont portés volontaires pour aller dans l'armée américaine, ils l'ont fait comme, comme un choix de leur part, il n'y avait pas de problème de euh traverser la frontière et de s'inscrire au poste de l'armée ou quoi que ce soit, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous savez, personne ne vous posait de questions, vous vouliez y aller, vous y alliez, c'est tout, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : Vous n'aviez pas à passer par la douane ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Il n'y avait rien. KT : Wow. YV : Ok. Donc, ce n'était pas, vous savez, ce n'était pas un problème. C'était un problème américain. C'était un problème américain. Ce n'était pas un problème canadien. KT : Intéressant. Hum. YV : Eh bien, nous étions très statiques. Nous, nous n'oublions pas que les Canadiens sont très statiques. Très conservateurs. Ils aiment beaucoup de choses derrière des portes closes. KT : Oui. C'est vrai. YV : C'est toujours le cas. Kt : Oui. Nous sommes comme les Américains. Mais très différents. YV : Pas comme les Américains. KT : Oui. Hum, une partie de la culture des jeunes, les voix des années soixante-dix ont fait la promotion des drogues récréatives. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, vous êtes allé dans une université catholique, je suppose que ces drogues n'étaient pas présentes. YV : Non. KT : Oui. YV : Non, et même la quantité de drogues récréatives dans les écoles était minimale. Même, même dans les années 70, dans mon lycée. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. Je veux dire, quand je suis parti, non, peut-être dans les années 80 et au début des années 90, on pouvait, chaque professeur connaissait tous les vendeurs de drogue de l'école, KT : Mhm. YV : et le chef de meute était l'un des enfants les plus intelligents de l'école. Très sociable. Très poli. Bonjour, mademoiselle. Comment allez-vous et tout le reste ? KT : C'est intéressant de voir comment ça marche YV : Et il a fait fortune, KT : Wow. Euh, et l'endroit où vous avez grandi, à Verdun ? YV : Oui. KT : Avez-vous remarqué, avez-vous remarqué quelque chose à propos de la drogue là-bas ? YV : Non, je ne peux pas dire que c'était le cas. Même en. Non, non, je pense que c'était quelque chose qui se faisait discrètement entre amis. KT : Oui. YV : Ce n'était pas, euh, vous savez, tout le parc qui s'illuminait. D'accord. Ce n'était pas, euh, vous savez, euh, Woodstock ou quelque chose comme ça. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Non, tout se faisait discrètement. Vous savez, vos amis, si vous, si vos, si c'était vos amis et que vous fumiez un joint, d'accord. C'était vos amis. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Ce n'était pas, vous savez, l'ensemble des 200 personnes qui sont là KT : Oui. YV : Avec vos amis, vous savez. KT : J'aimerais passer à l'expérience féminine. YV : Oh mon, ok. KT : Euh, en, oui, avec vos propres mots. Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait, euh, pour vous quand vous étiez à l'université ? Vous, vous avez dit que vous étiez dans une université de filles, n'est-ce pas ? Est-ce que c'était présent ou est-ce que c'était un peu n'importe quoi ? YV : Je ne pense pas que c'était une préoccupation majeure. Je ne pense pas que ce soit une préoccupation majeure. Je ne pense pas que le féminisme entre en jeu lorsque vous êtes à l'université avec un groupe de femmes. Je ne pense pas que le féminisme entre en jeu lorsque vous êtes à l'université avec un groupe de femmes. Ce n'est que si vous vous lancez dans une carrière ou quelque chose du genre, que cela se manifeste parce que vous n'avez pas eu ce genre d'attitude. Les hommes qui sont professeurs n'ont jamais eu ça. Les hommes qui sont professeurs n'ont jamais eu ce genre d'attitude. KT : Mhm. YV : Et nous avions beaucoup de femmes professeurs et elles étaient comme des modèles pour vous. Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Euh, une de mes professeures de physique était enceinte de neuf mois, elle est allée accoucher et a repris ses cours en deux jours. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord. Comme tout le monde l'a dit, était-elle vraiment enceinte ? KT : [rires] YV : Ce genre de choses. KT : Oui. Yep. YV : Mais elle l'était, vous savez, mais d'un autre côté, le docteur Tasik, qui était mon professeur de biologie, euh, elle était très, très féminine, vous savez, au point où, vous savez, elle, elle ne me donnerait pas un, elle ne relèverait pas, elle ne permettrait pas à une personne de passer. Un cours de bactériologie parce que cela me donnerait un 90 et elle ne le permettrait pas. YV : Maintenant, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Vous comprenez ? Est-ce parce qu'elle est contre les bonnes notes ? Je veux dire, quel était le problème avec le fait qu'elle ait eu 90, vous savez, KT : Oui. YV : Et je n'arrivais jamais à obtenir une réponse d'elle, vous savez. KT : Mhm. YV : Donc, c'était peut-être très subtil. D'accord. Mais ce n'était pas quelque chose qui était promu et ce n'était donc pas quelque chose que, que nous, nous devions avoir euh autre que cette situation à Biochem et à McGill avec ce type. KT : Oui. YV : Jusqu'à ce que je dise finalement non. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et il a reculé. KT : Oui, et quand vous êtes devenue enseignante ? Avez-vous remarqué quelque chose de ce genre avec vos, euh, avez-vous eu d'autres collègues qui étaient des femmes ? Et est-ce que vous avez déjà parlé de ce genre de choses ? YV : Non, il faut se souvenir. J'ai 21 ans et je suis l'homme le plus bas du totem, KT : Oui YV : Vous savez, alors quelqu'un qui est là depuis 20 ans, ce n'est pas le cas, KT : Oui. YV : vous savez, on ne lance pas beaucoup de choses. Non, c'était seulement quand nous, quand, quand Paul et moi sommes allés à notre, euh, régional de Richmond. D'accord. Et je me suis impliqué dans les affaires syndicales et j'ai fait partie de ce qu'on appelle le conseil d'école. C'était l'équivalent d'un conseil étudiant, sauf que c'est au niveau de l'enseignant. D'accord ? Et, ou au niveau administratif. Et puis, on prenait ce qu'on apprenait au syndicat et on l'appliquait aux situations de l'école. Mais il fallait faire très, très attention parce que beaucoup d'hommes pensaient que, comme je l'ai dit, j'aurais dû rester à la maison et élever plus d'enfants anglais pour la communauté anglaise. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Ce que je, vous savez, si je, mon mari et je disais, si mon mari et mon père n'ont aucun problème avec le fait que je travaille, qu'est-ce que vous faites ? Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Vous n'avez pas le droit de me dire ce que je dois faire, vous savez. Donc ce n'était pas, c'était peut-être comme beaucoup d'enseignants masculins qui étaient là et dont les femmes restaient à la maison et élevaient leurs enfants. C'était donc une question de génération. KT : Mhm. YV : Et au fur et à mesure que les jeunes enseignants arrivaient, que les plus âgés prenaient leur retraite. Eh bien, nous ne pensions pas tous de cette façon. Vous savez, nous avions tous, je me souviens qu'il y avait un professeur dans notre école qui n'avait pas de chéquier, pas de carte de crédit. KT : Wow. YV : D'accord. Et c'était, elle est arrivée l'année avant que Shane n'obtienne son diplôme, en 86. D'accord. Je me souviens qu'une autre enseignante et moi-même lui avons dit : tu vas demander une carte de crédit, puis tu iras au magasin, tu achèteras quelque chose, tu le chargeras et quand la facture arrivera, tu la paieras. Et maintenant, votre ligne de crédit est établie, votre KT : Oui. YV : votre historique de crédit est établi. Ce n'est qu'à ce moment-là qu'elle a commencé à se rendre compte qu'elle gagnait de l'argent et qu'il fallait qu'elle prenne soin d'elle. Et c'est une bonne chose parce que son mari travaillait sur le toit et il est tombé, il était attaché, mais il est tombé et son dos a heurté la balustrade du balcon et l'a paralysé. Il est tombé et son dos a heurté la balustrade du balcon et l'a paralysé. KT : Oh wow. YV : Pendant deux ans, il a été en congé de maladie, puis il est retourné au travail. Il était professeur de mathématiques et il y avait un ascenseur dans l'école, alors il pouvait conduire et se déplacer dans l'ascenseur et monter jusqu'à sa salle de classe. D'accord, mais cela lui a imposé un lourd fardeau et elle a retrouvé sa stabilité financière grâce à ce que nous lui avions dit de faire. KT : Oui. YV : Il y avait donc, nous sommes à la fin des années quatre-vingt. Il y avait donc beaucoup de gens qui avaient des idées vraiment démodées et puis il y avait, vous savez, quelques uns d'entre nous dans la salle du personnel, nous avons dit non, non, non, non, non, nous ne ferons pas ça, KT : Yep. YV : vous savez, et comment économiser de l'argent et où le mettre à l'abri de l'impôt et toutes sortes de choses comme ça. D'accord, mais nous l'avons fait discrètement. Nous ne le faisions pas avec des hommes autour de nous. KT : Pensez-vous qu'il s'agissait davantage de s'entraider que de dire un grand " F U " aux hommes ? Et comme YV : Je pense que c'était plus une question d'entraide que de, vous savez, vous savez, le truc c'est qu'avec beaucoup, beaucoup d'hommes, certains n'auraient jamais dit un mot, mais il y en avait d'autres qui auraient rejeté l'idée. Pourquoi voulez-vous faire ça ? Pourquoi votre mari ne le fait-il pas ? Vous voyez, KT : Oui. YV : Paul et moi nous sommes mariés la deuxième année. Il est allé chercher de l'argent à la banque. Et deux jours plus tard, il ne pouvait pas me dire où il avait dépensé les 200 dollars. Au début des années soixante-dix, 200 dollars, c'était beaucoup d'argent. KT : Oui. YV : Il m'a regardé et m'a dit : " Je veux que tu prennes en charge les finances KT : Intelligent. YV : Et il n'avait pas d'argent de poche ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Mais quand il voulait de l'argent, il pouvait aller à la banque. Mais je lui disais, d'accord. Qu'est-ce que tu as fait ? Tu as mis de l'essence dans la voiture ? Tu as acheté tes cigarettes ? KT : Oui. YV : Tu as acheté de la bière ? Vous avez acheté de la bière ? Oh, d'accord, et il a appris petit à petit. D'accord. C'est donc là que mon implication est intervenue KT : Oui. YV : Parce qu'avant cela, je ne faisais pas grand-chose. D'accord. Et c'est toujours mon père, qui était analphabète, qui signait les chèques, et non ma mère qui était alphabétisée, qui pouvait faire des maths, qui pouvait faire des choses comme ça ? Je n'ai pas pu obtenir de prêt. Euh, je devais faire signer mon mari pour un prêt. D'accord. KT : Wow. Ce n'est pas si loin. YV : Non, il n'y a pas si longtemps. Vous savez, c'était il n'y a pas si longtemps. Quoi qu'il en soit. KT : Hum. YV : Donc, le féminisme. Eh bien, je pense que nous avons travaillé tranquillement... KT : Oui. YV : à ce que nous pouvions faire. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, parce que ça ne faisait pas de vagues pour qui que ce soit, vous voyez ? KT : Donc, toutes les protestations sont plus américaines, selon vous ? Et YV : Oui. Eh bien, peut-être dans les grandes villes. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Par opposition au fait d'être américain, je pense que c'est le genre de grande ville, parce que leurs idées auraient été plus individuelles, parce qu'il n'y a pas ce genre de communauté. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et parce que dans une petite ville, tout le monde connaissait tout le monde, tout le monde connaissait Paul et moi, KT : Yep. YV : Ouais, il y a M. et Mme Voisard, vous savez, nous ne savions pas qui, qui ils étaient. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, mais ils savaient qui nous étions, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, il y a donc beaucoup de circonspection à laquelle il faut faire attention dans une petite communauté. Si vous voulez, vous savez, jeter votre soutien-gorge, c'est beaucoup plus facile de le faire en ville que d'aller au cénotaphe local... KT : Oui. YV : et, vous savez, faire tournoyer votre soutien-gorge parce que c'était une place à, à Richmond et c'était un cénotaphe, vous savez, donc, KT : Euh, nous avons parlé de la façon dont le fait d'être une femme entraînait un traitement différent et des attentes différentes dans les salles de classe. Quand vous avez eu ces, ces euh était-ce de la biochimie ? YV : Hm KT : avec euh les YV : Les étudiants de McGill ? KT : Avec les étudiants de McGill, avez-vous remarqué une différence de traitement de la part des professeurs ? Euh, non ? YV : Non. Euh, vous ne faites pas de laboratoires, n'est-ce pas ? KT : Non. YV : Ce qui se passe est ok. Dans un laboratoire ? Je vais supposer que c'est la même chose pour Abby. Je ne sais pas. Mais dans un laboratoire, euh, vous pouvez avoir une session de 20 ou 30 minutes, euh, euh, une session d'enseignement avant et ensuite vous donnez dans le laboratoire. KT : Et ensuite, il suffit de le faire YV : Allez-y. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Vous deviez donc lire le laboratoire. Vous saviez en quelque sorte sur quoi vous étiez censé travailler. KT : Mhm YV : Parce que vous venez d'avoir un cours sur le sujet. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Hum, mais vous, tout ce que vous aviez, c'était un technicien qui se promenait pour s'assurer que les éviers ne se bouchaient pas ou que vous pouviez obtenir un produit chimique particulier ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. KT : Mhm. YV : Vous avez juste travaillé pendant trois heures sur cette mission et vous êtes parti, vous savez. KT : Mhm. Hum. YV : Donc il n'y avait pas, il n'y avait pas, comme, je ne pense pas que j'ai vu le professeur du tout dans un laboratoire. KT : D'accord YV : D'accord. YV : C'était son étudiant de quatrième année ou quelque chose comme ça qui était technicien pour la journée, KT : Oui. Euh, quand vous étiez professeur, YV : Mhm. KT : Quand vous avez commencé à enseigner. Vous l'avez fait ? Je sais que vous avez enseigné à des lycéens. YV : Oui. KT : Ils sont donc un peu plus, je suppose, rebelles que, euh, que l'université. Mais avez-vous remarqué une différence de traitement entre les enfants et les enseignants masculins ? Ou ? YV : Je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas parce que, euh, votre classe est votre classe ? Vous ne savez pas, vous ne savez pas ce qui est... KT : Oui. YV : Ce qui se passe dans les autres classes, vous savez, vous ne voyez pas, et vous ne voyez pas beaucoup de choses dans le couloir. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, à l'époque. Je veux dire, vous n'étiez pas censé être dans un couloir, point, vous savez, euh, vous marchiez dans un couloir, quelqu'un pouvait vous arrêter et vous dire, qu'est-ce que vous faites ici ? KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, ce genre de choses. D'accord. KT : Mhm YV : Donc, non, je, je vais dire non, je ne suis pas au courant d'une quelconque, d'une quelconque différence entre les étudiants et les enseignants. Non. KT : D'accord. Euh... Est-ce qu'il y a eu des différences quand vous étiez à l'université ? YV : Oui, c'est vrai KT : Euh, y avait-il des programmes ? Hum. Vous avez mentionné que vous n'étiez pas nombreux dans le domaine des sciences. YV : Hm. KT : Des programmes ? Y avait-il des clubs à l'époque ? Hum YV : Hm. KT : Je ne peux même pas penser à un exemple de club. YV : Oui, je sais. Je sais que vous pensez à un club de théâtre, KT : Oui, des choses comme ça YV : Une chorale, des choses comme ça. En fait, je ne sais pas. Il n'y en avait pas, il n'y en avait pas pour les sciences. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Non, il n'y en a pas pour les sciences. Il y en avait peut-être dans la section art, dans la section B A. KT : Oui. YV : Je ne sais pas, je ne sais pas, mais ce n'était pas un truc de théâtre parce que je ne me souviens pas d'avoir assisté à des productions de théâtre. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Mes clubs étaient donc à l'extérieur, avec mes activités sportives, KT : Oui. YV : Avec les sports de ma ville. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. KT : Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture. Ce qui signifie que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social, à la fois à l'université et chez vous à Verdun ? Où aimiez-vous ? Vous considérez-vous comme devant faire quelque chose pour créer une société plus juste et un monde meilleur, comme, par exemple, pour moi qui ai grandi, toute cette histoire de changement climatique est, vous savez, énorme, comme beaucoup de gens de mon âge, oh vous devez recycler, recycler, recycler le changement climatique, vous savez, y avait-il quelque chose de ce genre quand vous étiez ? YV : Je vais dire non, non, je pense, je pense que c'était en grande partie une réforme de l'éducation à l'époque. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, et seules les personnes qui travaillaient dans l'éducation ou qui avaient des enfants dans le système scolaire étaient au courant. D'accord. Euh, le fossé entre les Français et les Anglais était en train de se creuser, vous savez, euh, euh, où le secteur français, vous deveniez médecin ou avocat ou vous travailliez... KT : Mhm YV : Ok. Donc, vous savez, à bien des égards, c'était exactement la même chose que le secteur anglais. J'ai une nièce qui a trois enfants, tous sont allés dans un collège ou un lycée privé. KT : Mhm. YV : Et puis ils sont allés dans des CEGEP privés dans le secteur français. KT : Oui. YV : Et ils sont maintenant, vous savez, soit à euh en fait deux d'entre eux ont étudié à l'université aux États-Unis. Le fait qu'ils soient allés dans un établissement privé français. KT : Oui. YV : Ils ont appris l'anglais. KT : Intéressant. YV : D'accord, parce qu'on n'apprend pas autant l'anglais dans le système public, dans le système français, que dans le secteur privé. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. C'est pourquoi, et je veux dire, dans le privé, je veux dire, 35 000 $ par an, Oui. YV : Je ne parle pas des trois ou quatre mille dollars où l'on peut aller pour citer ce qu'ils appellent un lycée privé français. KT : Oui YV : Euh, euh. Je veux dire, le vrai bon, il y avait beaucoup d'argent qui a été dépensé et beaucoup d'éducation. KT : Hm. YV : Ok. Donc, il n'y avait pas beaucoup de, je veux dire, le changement climatique n'était même pas un problème. D'accord. Euh, même pas, euh, le prix des aliments n'était pas un problème. Euh, même les voitures et, et le smog ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre n'était pas un problème. La moitié de la population du Québec n'avait pas de voiture. Nous utilisions les transports en commun KT : Oui. YV : pour aller partout dans la ville. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Oui. Donc, non, je ne pense pas, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu un problème majeur dont les gens étaient conscients. Par exemple, je veux dire, le Québec a commencé à établir son propre formulaire d'impôt sur le revenu en 60 67 68 72. Et je ne me souviens même pas d'avoir entendu parler de ça. KT : Hm. YV : D'accord. Ils, ils ont mis en place leur propre RRQ KT : Oui. YV : et leur propre régime d'impôt sur le revenu. KT : Intéressant YV : et je ne me souviens pas que quelqu'un ait fait des histoires à ce sujet. Je pense, je pense que ça a beaucoup à voir avec la société très patriarcale comme, euh, aujourd'hui la CAQ, euh, vous savez, c'est Legault, qui décide de tout. C'est pas son cabinet, c'est des conneries. KT : Ouais. YV : C'est lui qui dit oui. Non, ou quoi que ce soit. KT : Mhm. Avez-vous remarqué quelque chose, euh, comme aujourd'hui il y a beaucoup de, euh, de justice sociale pour, euh, les homosexuels YV : Oui, non. KT : Et les Noirs, et tout ça. YV : Non. KT : Y en avait-il ? Rien de tout cela ? YV : Non. Non. En fait, beaucoup de choses étaient probablement mal vues. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord, beaucoup plus. Je veux dire, euh, euh, je ne sais pas combien de Noirs étaient autorisés à entrer pour citer le contiki. J'aime utiliser le contiki parce que c'était un bar anglais. KT : Mhm. YV : Ce genre de choses. Vous savez, ils avaient leurs propres établissements, vous savez, pour sortir pour toutes sortes de choses différentes, vous savez, et comme je l'ai dit, je ne me souviens même pas que des Noirs vivaient dans mon quartier à Verdun. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Et la même chose s'applique à Richmond. Ce n'est que bien des années plus tard que nous avons eu une personne de couleur à l'école, à l'école, à l'école. Shane et Jason n'ont donc jamais grandi. Ils étaient au courant parce que nous les amenions partout où nous allions. Chaque fois que nous venions à Montréal et que nous allions au cinéma ou que nous restions à l'hôtel pendant le week-end pour un tournoi de natation ou de hockey, c'est là qu'ils voyaient une autre culture. KT : Mhm. YV : Mais c'était, vous savez, au hockey ou ailleurs. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Il n'y avait rien à, à Richmond et il y avait très peu à Sherbrooke KT : Et rien de tout cela n'était voulu, n'est-ce pas ? C'était juste, YV : Non, c'était comme ça. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Maintenant, je me souviens, hum, je me souviens quand les émeutes ont eu lieu à la fin des années 60 aux États-Unis, L.A. a explosé, KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Chicago a explosé. KT : Oui. YV : New Jersey. D'accord. Nous aurions, nous avions beaucoup de visiteurs qui venaient des États-Unis et beaucoup d'entre eux étaient noirs et, euh, je veux dire, ils devaient avoir de l'argent pour venir au Canada et y rester pour quelque raison que ce soit. Mais c'étaient les seuls que nous voyions dans nos restaurants. Normalement, nous n'avions pas de Noirs qui venaient au restaurant A&W. KT : Hm. YV : D'accord. Mais A&W est une chaîne aux États-Unis et ils la connaissent bien. D'accord. KT : Oui. YV : Alors ils, parce qu'il n'y avait pas de Burger King. Burger King n'est pas venu au Canada. Oh. Oh, Jason est né en 74-75. Burger King était encore aux États-Unis, il n'est pas venu au Canada KT : Oui. YV : Et McDonald's. Je ne sais même pas si McDonald's existait à l'époque. A&W était donc bien, et c'était une chaîne familière. KT : Mhm YV : Et je pense que c'est la raison pour laquelle nous avons, vous savez, KT : Oui, intéressant. YV : Donc, non, non, il n'y en avait pas. Nous, nous, nous n'avions tout simplement pas, KT : Oui. YV : On ne se rencontrait pas, on ne se réunissait pas pour quoi que ce soit. KT : Hm. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les idées de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? Comme YV : Je n'en ai aucune idée. KT : Oui, YV : Aucune idée à ce sujet. Je ne pense pas que papa et maman aient jamais eu quoi que ce soit de concret à dire à ce sujet, vous savez, quand Lilian a commencé à sortir ou quand Marcel a commencé à sortir ou quand j'ai commencé à sortir, il n'y avait pas de, vous savez, KT : On n'essayait pas de contrôler ? YV : Non, non, non, non, non, non. Je pense que nous avons été élevés à un point tel que nous savions, KT : Mhm. YV : vous savez, qu'il y avait des limites, KT : Oui. YV : Ce genre de choses KT : Oui. YV : que, ok, et nous absorbons simplement les limites et utilisons les limites. Euh, vous savez, sans même y penser. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. KT : Euh, étiez-vous en phase avec le système politique ? YV : Je vais dire que non, je ne l'étais pas. Je veux dire que je savais peut-être qui était le premier ministre à l'époque et des choses comme ça. Mais à part ça, non, et c'est seulement, vous savez, à Saint Joe's quand j'ai fait mon Bachelor of Education quand le rapport des parents est arrivé et c'était seulement parce que nous devions suivre un programme d'histoire de l'éducation. C'était uniquement parce que nous devions suivre un programme d'histoire de l'éducation. Bien sûr, il y a quelque chose qui va dans ce sens. KT : Mhm. YV : A part ça. Non. Non, KT : Intéressant YV : Ce n'était pas le cas. Hum, non, KT : ce n'était pas grand. YV : Ce n'était pas important. Je ne savais même pas qu'il y avait un maire de Verdun, et nous habitions en face de l'hôtel de ville. KT : Oui. YV : Non, la politique n'était pas, KT : pas aussi importante qu'elle l'est. YV : Non. KT : Pensez-vous que cela ait un rapport avec la connectivité de la société d'aujourd'hui ? Hum, YV : Eh bien, je pense, je pense, oui, je pense que le fait que tant de choses peuvent se produire et qu'en deux minutes, tout le monde sait ce qui se passe. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. Hum, et je suis sûr que cela a beaucoup à voir avec le, euh, le Vietnam et les reportages sur le Vietnam et puis, et puis Nixon qui s'est retrouvé dans les problèmes qu'il, et, et puis, vous savez, comme si tout d'un coup il y avait un procès à la télévision, comme, je veux dire, le juge était juste là et ils, vous savez, vous savez, ils interrogeaient John Dean et tous les, les gens qui travaillaient pour, pour Nixon, vous savez, comme si cela n'était jamais arrivé nulle part à aucun moment. Et puis tout d'un coup, vous savez, KT : Boom. YV : Boom, toutes ces choses ont commencé à sortir, vous savez, et ça a pu soulever quelques questions sur ce qui se passait au Québec ou, vous savez, vous savez, Renée Lévesque se présentant comme, euh, vous savez, le PQ et, et ce genre de choses. Mais au début des années 70, non. KT : Avez-vous, euh, quelle a été la première fois que vous avez voté, si vous avez voté ? YV : Oh, oui, j'ai voté quand j'ai eu le droit de voter. KT : D'accord. YV : J'ai voté tout le temps, j'ai toujours voté. KT : Et c'était plus, euh, vous votiez pour un parti spécifique ou vous, vous votiez pour la personne ? YV : Cela dépendait. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord, mais la plupart du temps, c'était au niveau fédéral, c'était pour le parti au niveau provincial. Ça variait parce qu'il n'y avait pas de PQ impliqué là-dedans. D'accord. KT : Mhm. YV : Vous pouviez donc, euh, vous savez, légitimement, vous savez, voter pour un individu. KT : Oui. YV : Et plus tard, euh, à Richmond, par exemple, euh, même dans la politique municipale, c'était pour l'individu. D'accord ? Et puis pour le provincial, c'était, c'était politique, c'était le parti. Mais au niveau fédéral, c'était ce qu'il y avait sur la liste, pas les gens, KT : Mhm YV : mais ce qu'il y avait sur la liste. Ok. Donc ça, ça a changé. D'accord. De faire, c'est quelque chose de très spécifique à prendre des décisions plus, euh, décisives et de savoir que si vous alliez dans un sens, votre vote ne compterait pour rien, mais il montrerait au moins qu'il y avait une dissidence, qu'il y avait des voix dissidentes. KT : Oui. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, donc vous avez dit que vous n'étiez pas vraiment au courant ou en phase avec le système politique ? Saviez-vous si, euh, comme pour moi qui ai grandi, j'ai toujours, euh, l'Ouest de l'île a toujours été très libéral, n'est-ce pas ? J'ai voté quand j'avais 18 ans. Peu importe pour qui je votais. Les libéraux allaient gagner. Aviez-vous la même attitude à Verdun ? Hum, ou est-ce que ça changeait, vous savez ? YV : Non, je n'ai pas voté à Verdun. Je ne pense pas, je, je ne me souviens pas avoir voté à Verdun. KT : D'accord. YV : D'accord. Et je ne pense pas que ce soit parce que je n'ai pas voté. Je pense que c'est parce qu'il n'y avait pas d'élection. Je pense que c'est parce qu'il n'y a pas eu d'élections. KT : Intéressant. YV : Oui, je ne pense pas, d'accord, parce qu'ensuite j'ai déménagé KT : Oui. YV : A Richmond. KT : Oui. YV : Et c'est là que le vote a eu lieu. C'est là que le vote a eu lieu. Et c'est là que vous avez voté ? D'accord. Eh bien, il s'agissait en grande partie de politique. C'était en grande partie, euh, le français contre l'anglais. Il y avait beaucoup de choses qui se passaient à l'époque et c'est ce qui décidait de la façon dont vous alliez voter. KT : Intéressant. Les historiens ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les pratiques de drague. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? YV : Probablement à un niveau philosophique. Je ne sais pas si c'est le cas à un niveau philosophique. KT : Pratiquement YV : Pratiquement, vous savez, KT : Oui YV : J'ai utilisé des pilules contraceptives, comme, vous savez, KT : Mhm. YV : tout le monde, vous savez, ce genre de choses. Et, et puis j'ai failli, j'ai cru que j'étais enceinte la troisième fois et ça n'allait pas. Mais c'est à ce moment-là que nous avons décidé que je ne pouvais pas. C'est un point intéressant. Je ne pouvais pas me faire ligaturer les trompes parce que je n'avais pas 30 ans. KT : Mhm. YV : et je n'avais pas trois enfants. Et le médecin me l'a dit catégoriquement. KT : Hm. YV : Alors quand je suis rentrée chez moi et que je l'ai dit à Paul, je lui ai dit que je ne pouvais pas me faire ligaturer les trompes ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Il a dit, d'accord, alors il va subir une vasectomie. Et maintenant, les deux, les deux garçons ont subi une vasectomie. D'accord ? Deux enfants. Et c'était ça KT : Hm. YV : plus rien. D'accord ? KT : Intéressant. YV : Oui, c'était vraiment, vous savez, comme, je veux dire, je pense que c'était un vrai choc KT : Oui. YV : Pour moi, avoir un médecin. Dites-moi que je ne pouvais pas décider qu'il y avait un autocrate quelque part dans le département de la santé qui disait que je ne pouvais pas faire ça ? KT : Wow. YV : Oui. KT : Hum, vous avez dit que les rendez-vous étaient beaucoup plus formels. YV : Mhm. KT : Euh, est-ce que c'était la même chose à l'université ? Quand vous êtes allée à Richmond, étiez-vous déjà avec YV : Paul KT : Paul ? YV : Oui KT : D'accord. Alors où, où l'avez-vous rencontré ? YV : à mon baccalauréat en éducation à Saint Joe's ? KT : D'accord. Il avait suivi un programme de quatre ans à Saint Mary's, à Halifax. KT : Mhm. YV : Et il ne savait pas ce qu'il allait faire après. Il a donc suivi le programme d'éducation. Entre-temps, il a décidé d'aller à Oxford ou à Cambridge et d'y faire une année d'études. KT : Mhm. YV : Et il a demandé à son professeur de Saint Mary's de contacter Cambridge ou, ou ce que vous faites, c'est que vous postulez et l'un d'entre eux vous prendra, pas les deux. C'est un peu comme le système des CEGEP, KT : Oui YV : vous savez, au Québec KT : Oui. YV : Vous envoyez le formulaire et ils vous disent ce qu'ils veulent. D'accord. Eh bien, c'est la même chose. Il a donc été accepté à Oxford. KT : Wow. YV : Après avoir obtenu notre diplôme, je suis allée travailler et il est allé à Oxford pendant un an pour étudier l'anthropologie. Il a fait de l'anthropologie. KT : C'est intéressant. YV : Et puis, et puis quand il est revenu, on a tous les deux euh cherché des emplois et il avait une soeur qui, qui avait un ami qui était psychologue à la commission scolaire régionale des Cantons de l'Est à l'époque où ça s'appelait et ils ouvraient l'école secondaire régionale de Richmond et ils cherchaient des enseignants KT : Hm. YV : Nous avons donc posé notre candidature et nous avons obtenu le poste. J'ai obtenu un poste en sciences et il a obtenu un poste en histoire. KT : Wow. Hum, comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? Était-ce une nécessité ? Hum, c'était comme, ou, ou, ou désolé. Est-ce que c'était comme si c'était juste ce que vous faisiez ? C'est juste ce que vous alliez faire. YV : C'est ce que vous avez fait. Oui, à l'époque. Bien que, euh, j'avais beaucoup de gens à l'école qui ne s'étaient pas mariés mais qui vivaient ensemble. KT : Mhm. YV : D'accord. Je me souviens d'une secrétaire qui m'a dit un jour, sans crier gare, que je n'avais pas d'enfants, Yvette, et je l'ai regardée et j'ai dit : " Je m'en fous ". KT : [rires] YV : Que tu n'aies pas d'enfants, je pensais que ce n'était pas mon problème. KT : Oui. YV : Eh bien, tout le monde pense que je devrais en avoir. Eh bien, si vous n'en voulez pas, s'il vous plaît, n'en ayez pas, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez ? KT : Oui. YV : Oh, ça ne vous dérange pas ? pourquoi diable ne le ferais-je pas ? Je n'arrivais pas à m'en remettre parce que c'était une femme à l'esprit fort. KT : Mhm. YV : De toute évidence, sa famille l'avait poussée à avoir des enfants et elle n'en voulait pas. KT : Mhm. YV : Je pense donc que les attentes ont commencé par suivre la même vieille règle, vous savez, vous vous mariez, vous avez des enfants, vous bla bla bla, et puis je pense que cela a lentement commencé à se relâcher. Les gens vivaient ensemble et avaient des enfants, mais ne se mariaient pas. KT : Mhm. YV : Ou ils vivaient ensemble, mais n'avaient pas d'enfants. D'accord. Hum, l'autre chose, c'est que dans l'enseignement, vous rencontrez tellement de mauvaises situations que cela, vous savez, vous ouvre les yeux sur beaucoup de situations différentes qui, vous savez, vous font vraiment remettre en question certaines des choses que vous pourriez décider de faire, vous savez. KT : Oui. YV : Euh, oui. KT : Hum, pour en venir à la sexualité et au harcèlement. YV : Hm. KT : Donc, comme je l'ai dit, si vous ne vous sentez pas à l'aise pour répondre à l'une ou l'autre de ces questions, vous n'avez qu'à le faire, YV : Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir été impliqué dans quelque chose de ce genre que j'appellerais. KT : Oui. YV : D'accord. KT : Hum, YV : Patriarcale. Oui. D'ACCORD. Dans le sens où je suis le patron et que c'est toujours un homme... KT : Oui. YV : et c'est ce que vous allez faire, mais je ne dirais pas que c'est du harcèlement sexuel. Je n'ai pas eu droit à ce genre de choses, même au restaurant. Je n'ai jamais eu ça KT : intéressant. Aujourd'hui, on fait beaucoup pour lutter contre le harcèlement sexuel. Il n'y avait rien de tout cela à l'époque ? YV : Pas que je sache. KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, je veux dire, je n'ai jamais rencontré la police pour, pour quoi que ce soit, vous savez, comme s'ils étaient là ou pas là, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, KT : Hum, YV : Ils étaient les gentils de toute façon, nous étions tous, vous savez, la police était gentille. Les pompiers étaient de bons gars. Les ambulanciers étaient de bons gars. Vous savez, vous n'aviez pas à remettre tout en question, KT : Oui YV : Vous savez, vous n'aviez pas, ce n'était pas, vous savez, KT : Donc ça a changé. YV : Oui. Tu sais, n'importe qui, comme, comme, tu sais, Jason a eu un très mauvais accident, euh, quand il était dehors avec ses amis, KT : Mhm. YV : Vous savez, et les amis ne savaient pas quoi faire. Alors ils ont arrêté une voiture sur l'autoroute et ils l'ont mis dans la voiture et, et ils nous ont téléphoné et nous ont dit que le gars l'avait conduit à l'hôpital. Savez-vous de quel hôpital il s'agit ? Non. KT : [rires] YV : Paul et moi avons failli Bref, nous l'avons trouvé KT : Oui. YV : à l'hôpital et quelqu'un l'avait déposé à l'hôpital. Et nous n'avons aucune idée de l'identité de ce brave homme. Et nous n'avons aucune idée de l'identité de ce bon samaritain, KT : Oui. YV : mais il avait 12 ans. C'était donc en 86. Je vous le dis, toutes les mauvaises idées nous sont passées par la tête KT : Ouais YV : jusqu'à ce qu'on le trouve, KT : Oui. YV : Vous savez, et, et ils étaient, vous savez, vous voyez, les enfants allaient parfaitement bien parce qu'ils faisaient confiance à cet adulte dans la voiture. KT : Oui YV : et vous, vous savez, comme nous, nous n'avons jamais rien dit de mal. Nous n'avons jamais, vous savez, passé un mauvais quart d'heure ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. On a juste croisé les doigts, vous savez, et KT : C'est, euh, très différent d'aujourd'hui. YV : Oui. KT : Euh, je ne pense pas, je pense que nous manquons de temps. Oui, nous n'avons pratiquement plus de temps. Donc, euh, ok, merci. Et Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Voisard, Yvette (interview) Description An account of the resource Oral history about Mrs. Voisard's university experience in the mid 1960s, as well as her teaching experience in the 1970s. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MPEG-4 Audio (.m4a), 58 minutes, 16 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1960s 1970s Bachelor of Education Bachelor of Science Bilingualism Campus Life Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Marianopolis College Marriage Popular Music Protest Race Richmond, Quebec Social life Sports Verdun, Quebec Vietnam Vietnam War Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Major, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00 EM: The date is October 25th, 2023. This is an oral interview with MP, the interviewer is Elizabeth Major and the topic is life on campus 0:14 EM: Cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. There were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured; or what did UOttawa students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:38 PM: In the 1970s, um…I think it was pretty much a reflection of what the American culture was. It was not that restricted, it was pretty liberal. So we went to dances. There were a lot of clubs that opened, discotechs, and, of course we all had cars, or at least we aspired to have cars. We had motorcycles and, so we went out a lot and socialized a lot but also there were drive thrus for, new drive thrus for places like McDonalds which had just opened recently and A&W, so we did a lot of socializing that way. There were a lot of uh school dances still and so we went to school dances and that was about the just of it. 1:42 EM: And um what were the most popular hang out spots on and off campus? 1:47 PM: On campus uh it was usually… let me think of it now, in high school you mean? 1:59 EM: At uOttawa. 2:00 PM: Oh at Ottawa U. Um the most popular places were probably the cafeteria where people would sit down and do their work, and of course for social, or not much for socializing but the library, we spent a lot of time in the library. And then on the weekends well there were dances at the community center in the hub and stuff at Ottawa U. And uh yeah it was a good social life. 2:29 EM: And did you live on campus? 2:32 PM: No I did not. 2:34 EM: And did the student body generally live on campus or with their parents? 2:36 PM: uh most of them lived independently and had apartments in the area around Ottawa U, the people that I knew anyways a lot of them were international students and uh they lived in the Sandy Hill area, there were a lot of rooms available then, small apartments and it was pretty well crammed with students 3:05 EM: And what countries were the international students mainly from? 3:11 PM: uh mostly from..well my friends were from Ethiopia, two very good friends from Ethiopia. Other ones were from uh Norway, and uh and England uh…I can't think of anything else. Not a lot of other cultures…oh there was some on the fringe I suppose a few Indian students but not very many at that point. 3: 41 EM: Did you attend any live music events during your university years? 3:46 PM: Yes, I did. I applied, I applied uh to concerts in Ottawa. Bob Dylan concert and what else was there, there was some lots of live bands in the clubs, we used to go to the live bands in the clubs a lot, different types of music, Blues bands, Rock and Roll, a lot of Jazz singers so we tried everything we just went everywhere. 4:20 EM: uOttawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s; did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? 4:34 PM: I don’t know because personally I took a lot of classes in French and so I knew a lot of French students and uh we all got along and there wasn’t any problems and of course I took a lot of English classes too so I met a lot of English kids but there were not a lot of cross references so a lot of the French kids stuck to the French courses and the English kids stuck to the English courses. I was perhaps an exception because I enjoyed the uh French grammar and French literature so I took a lot of those courses 5:12 EM: And did anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s? 5:17 PM: Uh yes they did. Some friends of mine who were mixed French and English dated each other and also international students dated Francophone students and international students also dated, the ones that I knew, English students. 5:39 EM: We use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? 5:49 PM: The 70s were well pretty well a reflection of the general public as I said people were going out to clubs a lot and listened to live music a lot, and although there were a lot of events on campus too on Saturday nights in the cafeteria, especially they had bands in there too so we went there as well. So party culture was not…it was mostly limited to weekends and stuff because we were all busy during the week. I would say there was not a great deal of carousing during the the week we were pretty serious. 6:36 EM: And what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 6:38 PM: There was a lot of division about Vietnam uh throughout North America as a reflection of and on the university there were mostly protests which were against the war and I personally had a connection with a couple of guys who had gone over there and I never heard from again. They were Americans at that point I was hitchhiking across Canada and I got a ride with a guy in a VW and he was anyways, he never came back he was an American. And also um people that were avoiding the draft that I knew about that I talked to a couple times. And they were adamant that they were not going to go over there and kill everybody because it was just wrong. 7:38 EM: And so, Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. Did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 7: 50 PM: Uh my father thought that the Rock and Roll was stupid and crazy and that everybody that was rebelling they were all morons and that had no idea of what reality is in terms of society so he was not very sympathetic to any protest…but he was also mysogynistic. 8:18 EM: Some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 8: 29 PM: Recreational drugs were available if you wanted them. They were fairly easy to get; just ask a friend who knew a friend and uh you’d get some. There was never a lot of money involved. It was not a big sale thing I knew people would give them away, give marijuana to other people to you know, just have a good time. And it was not as it is today a big uh business. It was just free for everybody and everybody helped everybody else out if they wanted some drugs they could have some. But there was mostly marijuana anyway, no hard drugs in those days. 9: 10 EM: So um to follow up on that, people from the 1970s speak about “tripping” and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 9:25 PM: Uh some did some because possibly following Timothy Leary who was a professor at uh in the states who advocated the use of LSD for enlightenment to change your ideas and your perceptions. And so some students did and uh and uh it was not a general usage, it was isolated i’d say to a few students but it was also driven by curiosity rather than by habits or any thrills or anything like that . 10: 11 EM: Um Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 1970s? 10: 31 PM: The women in the 1970s were smart, really intelligent, they were assertive, and they knew that they were going through uh a phase where they would become more assertive - that they were no longer just baby machines, and they wanted to have their own place in society and uh we respected that. 11:04 EM: And In your own words, what did “feminism” signify in Canada during the early 1970s? 11: 11 PM: As I said, women were coming to terms with the fact that the roles were not restricted by their biology and that they had an opportunity, although it was probably not well defined at that point, exactly what they were gonna do and what they wanted to do. They knew that they had to do something different and that they were going to be reasonably happy and as I say, not restricted anymore from school and just raising children. 11: 42 EM: Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to male students? 11: 56 PM: I’d say the classrooms…the classrooms I was in anyway, was not much different they were pretty liberal. And in terms of social events, there were, there was still discrimination in terms of women, in terms of what was expected of them and what people could perceive them as. And, however, there was also a lot of other people that stood up for them when they were being, they thought that there was some injustice, the males that is. So there was a transition, there was something happening socially. 12: 43 EM: In the 1970s were there UOttawa programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? 12: 51 PM: Programs and clubs? I don’t know that that’s true. I don’t think they were less accepted than anyone else in the classroom, they were all treated the same and we listened as well on an equal basis. We were there to learn and we were all learning from each other - males and females. 13: 19 EM: Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents’ generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? So, To what extent did your generation believe that your parents’ notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 13: 44 PM: Well we knew that intrinsically because our parents, our parents were just caught up in an ideology that was just untenable because we saw basically all our friends and people that I hung around with and stuff they were all…their parents were just miserable all the time. They were unhappy their marriages, the women didn’t seem very happy and general feeling of unease and not feeling to reproduce the same things. We all felt that we had to change something, both the men and the women and our perception of we were gonna do it, we had to do it ourselves and it was difficult at times because there was a lot of arguing around the kitchen table but it had to happen. And we set forth and consciously tried to do that. 14:44 EM: And Looking back to the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? 14: 56 PM: What aspects of society? Well I think, I think that overall it was the ideology that men and women were set in their own roles and women had particular roles in society and they were expected to fulfill those roles as mothers and caregivers and the men were to go out and work all day and bring home the money and give the money to the woman to run the household. And basically the men had a lot more freedom and could go off in the evening whereas the women were still stuck at home with their children and doing homework and so on and so forth so. 15:55 EM: What were the principal forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 16: 03 PM: Injustice. I don’t know that you could term it injustice if Everybody believed that it was just its just the way things ought to be . That men should go out and work, that women should stay home and that was just the way everybody thought about it and that’s what was accepted at the time until of course the kids decided to say well no that’s not the way it should be, it's just not fair and nobodys happy. Everybody was just miserable. 16:38 EM: And did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens’ needs? 16:46 PM: Whose needs? 16:47 EM: citizens’ needs. 16:48 PM: Yes, of course. Politics is always a reflection of what the trends in society and it was still fairly democratic in terms of the citizens overall given the ideology at the time and the customs. 17:08 EM: Um Cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion and dissemination of the ‘free love’ ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with that statement? 17: 25 PM: Yes, absolutely. Getting the pill and uh access to abortion was a key element in the changes that we all sought and the women sought for sure because it allowed them the freedom to be a part of the workforce and be more than what their mothers and grandmothers were. 17: 51 EM: And what did dating look like at the University of Ottawa during the early 1970s? 17:58 PM: Dating? 17:58EM: yes 18:00 PM: Dating was pretty regular, they were all very young of course. They girls were young, the boys were young, we were all feeling our way along and we were all pretty tolerant of each other. 18: 17 EM: And how did your generation look at family and marriage? 18: 23 PM: our generation rejected marriage and we thought that family had to change because it just didn’t work the way it was. All my friends were not happy with the way their parents were. 18:45 EM: So was marriage part of your long-term relationship plans for you and your peers? 18: 49 PM: No, not necessarily, in fact, many of us lived common law. Girls accepted it, we accepted it and we just lived together freely. As we were supposed to be free from all conventions and from all the deterioration of marriage and the commitment we were experimenting. It was frowned upon by our elders and it was not really accepted, not like it is today. Transcription Translation 0:00 EM : La date est le 25 octobre 2023. Il s'agit d'un entretien oral avec MP, l'intervieweuse est Elizabeth Major et le sujet est la vie sur le campus. 0:14 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment vos loisirs étaient-ils structurés, ou que faisaient les étudiants de l'Université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? 0:38 PM : Dans les années 1970, euh... je pense que c'était un peu le reflet de ce qu'était la culture américaine. Elle n'était pas si restreinte, elle était plutôt libérale. Nous allions donc danser. Il y avait beaucoup de clubs qui s'ouvraient, des discothèques, et, bien sûr, nous avions tous des voitures, ou du moins nous aspirions à en avoir. Nous avions des motos et, donc nous sortions beaucoup et nous socialisions beaucoup, mais il y avait aussi des drive thrus pour, de nouveaux drive thrus pour des endroits comme McDonalds qui venait d'ouvrir récemment et A&W, donc nous socialisions beaucoup de cette façon. Il y avait encore beaucoup de bals d'école et nous allions aux bals d'école, et c'était à peu près tout. 1:42 EM : Et quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? 1:47 PM : Sur le campus, c'était généralement... laissez-moi y penser maintenant, au lycée, vous voulez dire ? 1:59 EM : À l'Université d'Ottawa. 2:00 PM : OH, À L'UNIVERSITÉ D'OTTAWA : Les endroits les plus populaires étaient probablement la cafétéria où les gens s'asseyaient et travaillaient, et bien sûr pour les activités sociales, ou pas vraiment pour les activités sociales, mais la bibliothèque, nous passions beaucoup de temps à la bibliothèque. Et puis le week-end, il y avait des soirées dansantes au centre communautaire dans le hub et d'autres choses à Ottawa U. Et euh oui, c'était une bonne vie sociale. 2:29 EM : Et vous viviez sur le campus ? 2:32 PM : NON : Non, je ne vivais pas sur le campus. 2:34 EM : Et les étudiants vivaient-ils généralement sur le campus ou avec leurs parents ? 2:36 PM : Euh, la plupart d'entre eux vivaient indépendamment et avaient des appartements dans les environs de l'Université d'Ottawa, les gens que je connaissais en tout cas, beaucoup d'entre eux étaient des étudiants internationaux et euh, ils vivaient dans le quartier de Sandy Hill, il y avait beaucoup de chambres disponibles à l'époque, de petits appartements et c'était assez bien rempli d'étudiants. 3:05 EM : Et de quels pays venaient principalement les étudiants étrangers ? 3:11 PM : Euh, principalement de... eh bien, mes amis venaient d'Éthiopie, deux très bons amis d'Éthiopie. D'autres venaient de Norvège, et d'Angleterre... Je ne me souviens de rien d'autre. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'autres cultures... Oh, il y en avait un peu en marge, je suppose, quelques étudiants indiens, mais pas beaucoup à ce moment-là. 3:41 EM : Avez-vous assisté à des concerts pendant vos années d'université ? 3:46 PM : Oui, j'y ai assisté. J'ai postulé, j'ai postulé euh à des concerts à Ottawa. Il y avait beaucoup de groupes de musique dans les clubs, nous allions souvent voir des groupes de musique dans les clubs, différents types de musique, des groupes de blues, de rock and roll, beaucoup de chanteurs de jazz, alors nous avons tout essayé, nous sommes allés partout. 4:20 EM : L'Université d'Ottawa était une institution bilingue. Les francophones et les anglophones s'inscrivaient-ils aux mêmes cours universitaires et participaient-ils aux mêmes clubs ? 4:34 PM : Je ne sais pas parce que personnellement, j'ai pris beaucoup de cours en français et j'ai donc connu beaucoup d'étudiants français et nous nous sommes tous entendus et il n'y a pas eu de problèmes. Bien sûr, j'ai pris beaucoup de cours en anglais aussi et j'ai donc rencontré beaucoup d'étudiants anglais mais il n'y avait pas beaucoup de références croisées et beaucoup d'étudiants français s'en tenaient aux cours de français et les étudiants anglais aux cours d'anglais. J'étais peut-être une exception parce que j'aimais la grammaire française et la littérature française, alors j'ai suivi beaucoup de ces cours. 5:12 EM : Et est-ce que les anglophones et les francophones se fréquentaient pendant les années 70 ? 5:17 PM : Euh, oui. Certains de mes amis qui étaient à la fois français et anglais sortaient ensemble et les étudiants internationaux sortaient avec des étudiants francophones et les étudiants internationaux sortaient aussi, ceux que je connaissais, avec des étudiants anglais. 5:39 EM : Nous utilisons le terme "culture de la fête" pour faire référence aux activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970 ? 5:49 PM : Les années 70 reflétaient assez bien le grand public, comme je l'ai dit, les gens sortaient beaucoup en boîte et écoutaient beaucoup de musique live, et bien qu'il y ait eu beaucoup d'événements sur le campus le samedi soir à la cafétéria, il y avait aussi des groupes de musique, alors nous y allions aussi. La culture de la fête n'était donc pas... elle était surtout limitée aux week-ends et à d'autres choses parce que nous étions tous occupés pendant la semaine. Je dirais qu'il n'y avait pas beaucoup de fêtes pendant la semaine, nous étions plutôt sérieux. 6:36 EM : Et que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? 6:38 PM : Il y avait beaucoup de divisions au sujet du Vietnam, dans toute l'Amérique du Nord, comme un reflet de l'université, il y avait surtout des protestations contre la guerre et j'étais personnellement en contact avec deux gars qui étaient allés là-bas et dont je n'ai plus jamais entendu parler. Ils étaient américains à l'époque, je faisais de l'auto-stop à travers le Canada et j'ai été pris en stop par un gars dans une VW et il était de toute façon, il n'est jamais revenu, c'était un Américain. Et aussi des gens qui évitaient l'appel sous les drapeaux et dont je connaissais l'existence, à qui j'ai parlé plusieurs fois. Et ils étaient catégoriques sur le fait qu'ils n'allaient pas aller là-bas et tuer tout le monde parce que ce n'était pas bien. 7:38 EM : Dans les années 60, les artistes du Rock and Roll ont encouragé diverses formes de protestation. Vos parents considéraient-ils le Rock and Roll comme une forme de rébellion ou simplement comme une forme de musique populaire ? 7:50 PM : Mon père pensait que le Rock and Roll était stupide et fou et que tous ceux qui se rebellaient étaient des crétins qui n'avaient aucune idée de ce qu'est la réalité en termes de société, donc il n'était pas très favorable aux protestations... mais il était aussi mysogyne. 8:18 EM : Certaines voix de la culture des jeunes des années 1970 ont encouragé la prise de drogues récréatives. Dans quelle mesure les drogues récréatives étaient-elles disponibles sur les campus au cours des années 1970 ? 8:29 PM : Les drogues récréatives étaient disponibles si vous en vouliez. Elles étaient assez faciles à obtenir ; il suffisait de demander à un ami qui connaissait un ami et, euh, on en obtenait. Il n'y avait pas beaucoup d'argent en jeu. Je savais que les gens les donnaient, donnaient de la marijuana à d'autres personnes pour, vous savez, passer un bon moment. Et ce n'était pas comme aujourd'hui un gros commerce. C'était gratuit pour tout le monde et tout le monde aidait les autres, s'ils voulaient de la drogue, ils pouvaient en avoir. Mais il y avait surtout de la marijuana, pas de drogues plus dures. 9;10 EM : Pour poursuivre, les gens des années 70 parlent de "tripping" et de prendre des psychédéliques pour atteindre un état de conscience plus élevé. Dans quelle mesure les étudiants du campus consommaient-ils des hallucinogènes ? 9:25 PM : Certains l'ont fait parce qu'ils suivaient peut-être Timothy Leary, un professeur aux États-Unis qui prônait l'utilisation du LSD pour s'éclairer et changer ses idées et ses perceptions. Certains étudiants l'ont fait et ce n'était pas un usage général, c'était isolé, je dirais, pour quelques étudiants, mais c'était aussi motivé par la curiosité plutôt que par des habitudes ou des sensations fortes ou quoi que ce soit de ce genre. 10:11 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent le féminisme de la deuxième vague, selon lequel, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années 1970 ont cherché à briser les barrières entre les sexes. Cet argument résonne-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? 10:31 PM : Les femmes des années 1970 étaient intelligentes, vraiment intelligentes, elles s'affirmaient, et elles savaient qu'elles traversaient une phase où elles s'affirmeraient davantage - qu'elles n'étaient plus de simples bébés-machines, et qu'elles voulaient avoir leur propre place dans la société, et euh, nous respections cela. 11:04 EM : Et selon vos propres termes, que signifiait le " féminisme " au Canada au début des années 1970 ? 11:11 PM : Comme je l'ai dit, les femmes acceptaient le fait que les rôles n'étaient pas limités par leur biologie et qu'elles avaient la possibilité, même si ce n'était probablement pas bien défini à ce moment-là, de savoir exactement ce qu'elles allaient faire et ce qu'elles voulaient faire. Elles savaient qu'elles devaient faire quelque chose de différent et qu'elles allaient être raisonnablement heureuses et, comme je l'ai dit, qu'elles n'étaient plus limitées à l'école et à l'éducation des enfants. 11:42 EM : Les distinctions entre les sexes étaient plus prononcées dans les années 70 qu'aujourd'hui. En quoi le fait d'être une femme se traduisait-il par un traitement et des attentes différents de ceux des étudiants masculins dans les salles de classe ou lors d'événements sociaux ? 11:56 PM : Je dirais que les salles de classe... les salles de classe dans lesquelles j'étais en tout cas, n'étaient pas très différentes, elles étaient plutôt libérales. Et en termes d'événements sociaux, il y avait, il y avait encore de la discrimination à l'égard des femmes, en termes de ce que l'on attendait d'elles et de ce que les gens pouvaient percevoir d'elles. Mais il y avait aussi beaucoup d'autres personnes qui les défendaient lorsqu'elles pensaient qu'il y avait une injustice, c'est-à-dire les hommes. Il y a donc eu une transition, il s'est passé quelque chose sur le plan social. 12:43 EM : Dans les années 1970, y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'Université d'Ottawa où les femmes étaient moins présentes et moins acceptées ? 12:51 PM : Des programmes et des clubs ? Je ne sais pas si c'est vrai. Je ne pense pas qu'elles étaient moins acceptées que n'importe qui d'autre dans la salle de classe, elles étaient toutes traitées de la même façon et nous écoutions aussi sur un pied d'égalité. Nous étions là pour apprendre et nous apprenions tous les uns des autres - hommes et femmes. 13:19 EM : Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre les valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur ? Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées ? 13:44 PM : Nous le savions intrinsèquement parce que nos parents, nos parents étaient pris dans une idéologie qui était tout simplement intenable parce que nous avons vu tous nos amis et les gens avec qui je traînais, ils étaient tous... leurs parents étaient tout simplement malheureux tout le temps. Ils étaient malheureux dans leur mariage, les femmes ne semblaient pas très heureuses, et il y avait un sentiment général de malaise et de ne pas avoir envie de reproduire les mêmes choses. Nous avions tous le sentiment qu'il fallait changer quelque chose, les hommes comme les femmes, et notre perception de ce que nous allions faire, nous devions le faire nous-mêmes, et c'était parfois difficile parce qu'il y avait beaucoup de disputes autour de la table de la cuisine, mais il fallait le faire. Nous nous sommes mis en route et avons consciemment essayé de le faire. 14:44 EM : Et si l'on se réfère aux années 1970, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait-on comme le plus détraqué et le plus à corriger ? 14:56 PM : Quels aspects de la société ? Eh bien, je pense que dans l'ensemble, c'était l'idéologie selon laquelle les hommes et les femmes avaient leurs propres rôles et les femmes avaient des rôles particuliers dans la société et on attendait d'elles qu'elles remplissent ces rôles en tant que mères et soignantes et les hommes devaient sortir et travailler toute la journée et ramener l'argent à la maison et donner l'argent à la femme pour qu'elle s'occupe du ménage. En fait, les hommes avaient beaucoup plus de liberté et pouvaient sortir le soir, tandis que les femmes restaient à la maison avec leurs enfants, à faire leurs devoirs, etc. 15:55 EM : Quelles étaient les principales formes d'injustice dans la société canadienne au cours des années 1970 ? 16:03 PM : L'injustice. Je ne sais pas si on peut parler d'injustice si tout le monde croit que c'est juste, que c'est comme ça que les choses devraient être. Les hommes devaient sortir et travailler, les femmes devaient rester à la maison et c'était la façon dont tout le monde pensait et c'était ce qui était accepté à l'époque jusqu'à ce que les enfants décident de dire que non, ce n'est pas comme ça que ça devrait être, que ce n'est pas juste et que personne n'est heureux. Tout le monde était malheureux. 16:38 EM : Et avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique, juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? 16:46 PM : Les besoins de qui ? 16:47 EM : Les besoins des citoyens. 16:48 PM : Oui, bien sûr. La politique est toujours le reflet des tendances de la société et c'était encore assez démocratique en termes de citoyens dans l'ensemble, étant donné l'idéologie de l'époque et les coutumes. 17:08 EM : Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de "l'amour libre" ont modifié les relations entre les hommes et les femmes et les pratiques amoureuses au début des années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? 17:25 PM : Oui, absolument. L'obtention de la pilule et l'accès à l'avortement étaient un élément clé des changements que nous recherchions tous et que les femmes recherchaient certainement parce que cela leur donnait la liberté de faire partie de la main-d'œuvre et d'être plus que ce qu'étaient leurs mères et leurs grands-mères. 17:51 EM : Et à quoi ressemblaient les rencontres à l'Université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970 ? 17:58 PM : Des rencontres ? 17:58 EM : Oui. 18:00 PM : Les rencontres étaient assez régulières, ils étaient tous très jeunes bien sûr. Les filles étaient jeunes, les garçons étaient jeunes, nous tâtonnions tous et nous étions tous assez tolérants les uns envers les autres. 18:17 EM : Et comment votre génération considérait-elle la famille et le mariage ? 18:23 PM : Notre génération rejetait le mariage et nous pensions que la famille devait changer parce qu'elle ne fonctionnait pas comme avant. Tous mes amis n'étaient pas satisfaits de la façon dont leurs parents vivaient. 18: 45 EM : Le mariage faisait-il partie de vos projets de relations à long terme, pour vous et vos pairs ? 18: 49 PM : Non, pas nécessairement, en fait, beaucoup d'entre nous vivaient en union libre. Les filles l'acceptaient, nous l'acceptions et nous vivions ensemble librement. Comme nous étions censés être libres de toutes les conventions et de toute la détérioration du mariage et de l'engagement, nous faisions des expériences. C'était mal vu par nos aînés et ce n'était pas vraiment accepté, pas comme c'est le cas aujourd'hui. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M, P (Interview) Subject The topic of the resource Testimonial about the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario during the early 1970s, including counterculture movement. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 19 minutes, 19 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Marriage Popular Music University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Price, Rebecca Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Rebecca: Okay, We are recording. All right. So one of the first things that we're talking about is the impact of popular culture. So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and a consumer culture built around automobiles has created a more integrated North American popular culture. So being that uOttawa is a bilingual university, we want to know a bit more about how the Anglophones and the Francophones related together on this. So to get the ball rolling, I'll ask you, um, nowadays, when students have free time, they tend to gravitate towards electronics and social media and such. The seventies didn't have as many electronics. So what, what did you do in your free time? BK: Well, when I was on campus, there was , uh, what’s the building where the cafeteria is that the, you know, the big central building? The library runs off it- Rebecca: Uh, Lamereux? BK: Yeah. And there was a down on the ground floor, like there was kind of a lowered floor with stairs around it. Rebecca: Oh yes! Like kind of a pit in the ground a little bit? BK: Yeah. So we, you know, if you're in between classes, go and grab a coffee and sit there and just strike up conversations. The other was al- just seemed to recall there was always something going on at uh- tables set up with interest groups. I remember the Communist Party having a table and you know, just sort of uh, yeah. So I was more in person gravitating and that was like the university centre, I thought of it that way. Rebecca: I would still say it is for sure. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So your free time was mostly spent with other people, not necessarily by yourself. BK: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: I would say that's very different nowadays, unfortunately. Um, so would you say that that's one of the more popular hangout spots on campus or were there some other spots on or off campus that you remember? BK: Well, you know, it depends. The- I did two degrees at University of Ottawa in the 1970s, so my first degree was Arts and graduated in 76 and the second was in law and the law degree- the law school Fauteux Hall. Once you were in there, like, that was a very different experience. So I would, uh, there’s on the third floor, there's a lounge and free time would be spent in there, we’d be playing bridge, that kind of thing. But it was a lot more, the law school, um, it’s a lot more intense in the sense that you’re- we were 180 students in the first year and we were three groups of um, 60. So I was in Group B and intense friendships with people that were in that group and people were in that year that we, you know, maintain through I mean, it's 50 years later or, less so with people that I was friends with than Arts. So maybe more contacts, but fewer deeper connections. Rebecca: These deeper connections, are they people you crossed paths with professionally after having graduated? BK: Some of them, some of them. And but others just, we’ve just, you know, kept in touch. We spent a lot of time together and it's law school is it's very- it's it's super hard. Rebecca: So you really bonded. BK: So you sort of bond over that. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, did you attend any live events, theater or music or anything during your time there? BK: Um, I don't really recall live event- not theater. I don't think that, but certainly dances. There were dances that were organized. Rebecca: Put on by the school or like the student union? BK: Student Union. I don't know who, but I remember there were dances with, uh, I can remember with foreign students so that foreign students would get to meet, uh, people. But we did a lot like in the seventies. I would say that was a big feature. Like if you wanted to go out, maybe now you go to clubs there and then it was discotheques. So dancing was a big thing. And you know, it was quite a normal thing to get dressed up and go dancing. And there were dances at the university. Rebecca: Wow, that's fabulous. What kind of- what did dressed up mean in the seventies? BK: Uh, well, I think pretty much what it means now. You put on a dress- Rebecca: Yeah, like you had on party attire kind of thing? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Wow. All right, So, again, being that uOttawa is a bilingual institution, how linguistically integrated would you say it was between English and French in that were you in the same classes, programs or after school things? BK: I think it was more after school things. So the group that I hung out with when- in undergrad was definitely a very bilingual group. So there were lots of I'd say there is a core of maybe 12 people that I hung out with a lot and the half of them were Francophone and from northern Ontario, I seem to recall, because I know I visited up on Blind River with one after graduation. So and that- we attended our activities where we'd go out, you know, there was a jazz club and that kind of thing. Things down in the market. Um, there was a club called Le Hibou, the Owl, Le Hibou, um, and was that on campus or close to campus? And uh, the- that was definitely a place where there was live music and, you know, different different groups and things like that Rebecca: Did you feel while you were on campus that you were in the middle of a campus or that you were really integrated with downtown? BK: When I came to OttawaU, this’ a roundabout way of answering the question. Um, I had done a year of Cegep in Montreal. I was at Marianopolis College and my dad was in the military, and so he was transferred from the base at Saint Hubert to the National Headquarters, Defence Headquarters, and I could have stayed in Montreal and finished my program at the um, Marianopolis and then I probably would have gone to McGill because it was kind of right across the street. And, you know, that would have been a completely different path. But I was a little bit intimidated about living in Montreal on my own, so I was 17, turning 18. The, cause- Marianopolis didn't have dorms, so I came to Ottawa and I went to the campus at Carleton and I went to the campus at OttawaU. And I thought Carleton was awful. I was just I just yeah, I thought, Oh my gosh, there's nobody here. There's all these tunnels. Like, where are we? It's like, Yeah, cold. I just did not have a good vibe about Carleton and but with OttawaU I just felt, Oh yeah, this place is cool, it's lively. There's lots of people around. There’s English and French. It just sounds. And I said, no, that’s where I want to go. Rebecca: Wow. That is very, very interesting. I see what you mean about the difference between Carleton and uOttawa, for sure. It's definitely a draw. Um, so sort of in a similar vein, going back to the bilingualism were- nowadays what I find when I look across the campus, I would say that most English students are not bilingual, whereas most Francophones are bilingual. Would you say that was the same case back in the seventies? BK: Uh, yes. Pro- probably. But, you know, it was a smaller place and I don't know that the lines were quite as well drawn. So again, I would contrast the arts experience with the law school. The- then I think as now, you could take the same course in either language and you could write in your own language. Rebecca: Okay, right. BK: So you wouldn’t be- so the idea was you wouldn't be docked marks. But I did feel like, Oh, I don't know. Do I really trust that? You know, what if the professor just, you know, I'm writing in English and they might not be, um, they might be prejudiced against me and I might not get as good a grade because I wanted to go to law school so my grades were important to me. But I think that because the crowd that I hung out with was bilingual, I don't know that I noticed that. But I do know that I had classmates that did not get their degree because you had to pass a test in the other language. So it was mandatory. And so there was- everybody had to- whether you were Francophone or Anglophone, you had to prove your bilingualism before you could get your degree. And so maybe that wasn't the case I got at law school. So my experience in law school was like, no, I lost a lot of my French, um, that was all in English. It was very much more siloed that way. The civil law and the common law students did not mingle together. There wasn't a French common law program, that started the year after I graduated. So it's but I think it was that was a really good way of enforcing this is a bilingual campus. And what they did- what you did was you wrote an aptitude- like you did a test and you were streamed. So you had to take a class in your second language and you had to pass it. So when I took the test and I had just come from Montreal and I was bilingual and I just was put in this class and was just like, Oh my God, these people don't know anything. They have no idea. This is nuts. And so I went and complained at the Office of Second Languages and I said, you know, and I was speaking to the lady in French, and she said, but you're bilingual. I said, yeah, but look at the class it put me in. And so she looked at my score on the whatever the placement test, the proficiency test, it was pretty bad. And I said, well, it doesn't reflect my ability, so put me in a better class. And that was- and I remember that class really well, was a really, um, our teacher was from France. It was a small group and you know, so it was good. And you- that was the only requirement in that class passed that class and that was a uh, what I it was an essential to getting their degree, as I recall it. That's how it was. But I know, I know that's how it was. Rebecca: Yeah, wow. I kind of partly wish that that were still the case because I think there's there's quite a divide right now between English and French, and that's really unfortunate. Yeah, we have such an incredible institution, but there is such a separation in a lot of ways. BK: Yeah. And, and maybe my experience would have been different going in as a unilingual anglophone. Rebecca: Mm hmm. That’s true. BK: I might not have been hanging out with the people that I hung out with, so, you know, so my experience might be unique, but. Rebecca: Yeah. So in a similar vein, was there a dating culture between English and French speakers? BK: I don't know that there was a dating culture was the seventies. Rebecca: Okay, okay. BK: We didn't date. Rebecca: You didn't date. BK: I went to clubs and we danced. And out of that, you might meet somebody that you would go out with. But yeah, I don’t know what a dating culture is. Rebecca: Okay, so. But would would French and English people be interested in each other? There wasn't really a a boundary to cross there at all? BK: Well, not in my world. Rebecca: Right. Okay. Yeah. Because you were going into it bilingual around bilingual people- BK: Yeah. Rebecca: So it was just the same. BK: Yeah Rebecca: Okay. Um, so I guess, actually, you've touched on this a little bit. Um, we nowadays use, like, party culture as anything happening outside of the classroom. So how would you describe the, the party culture of the seventies when you were there? BK: Um, oh, I, I mean, apart from the Panda game, I don't think there's anything that's like, what happens now? Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Like house parties or things like that. BK: Well, there'd be house parties for sure, and- but they didn't spill out into the street and cause riots and that kind of stuff. No, there was nothing like it apart from the Panda game. And I think that was pretty much, as I recall, just confined to the Panda game. And and the vicinity. But we would have parties, we would go out, that kind of thing. Rebecca: But was there a sense of rivalry between uOttawa and Carlton at the time? BK: Yes. Yes, Yes. Rebecca: That has that has lasted. Yes. To this day. So taking maybe a bit of a heavier tern. Um, we in our class talk a lot about and hypothesize how students of the seventies felt about the Vietnam War. So how would you describe what the student body thought about the war while you were there? BK: Um, I don't know that the Vietnam War came up a lot in…When they- when I was there. I don't, but I do, um, I'd say in the late sixties was much more of a protest culture and things had- there was a big difference. And as I recall, there's a big difference between what happened in the sixties and what happened in the seventies. And I can remember Professor- one professor saying, no, you know, we were so much more complacent and not activist enough to… Rebecca: Speaking to you as students? BK: As students, yeah, that that you weren’t- that we weren't, you know, we're more self-interested like what kind of jobs we're going to get in that kind of thing. So a lot more establishment than you know- So a professor from the sixties was disappointed in his students in the seventies. The Vietnam War was definitely a feature of my childhood, my dad's military, so, and he had colleagues who fought, who- you know American counterparts who fought in the war. That would be, um, treated terribly when they got back because the war was so unpopular. So that was one aspect. Then there was terrible things, but, you know, it was, um, it was a brutal war and the rightness and wrongness of it is one thing, but it was a brutal war and and it was not, uh, -but I think the protests, race, the Vietnam War, um, I’d say in the seventies, the environmental concerns were definitely that was something I was interested in. And in some respects it's gotten better and in some respects it's gotten worse. Rebecca: Yes. So speaking about the sixties, the sort of rock and roll artists of the time were were promoting various forms of protest. And so do you do you feel for you that rock and roll, when you experienced it in the seventies as a student, was still tied to that sort of against the systems, or was it more just some music you consumed? BK: Music you loved. Rebecca: Okay. Okay. Interesting. Do you feel that your parents generation viewed rock and roll in the seventies the same way, or did it make more of a statement to them? BK: They were mostly just telling me to turn it down. I don't think they had time to think about it. Rebecca: That’s very fair. Yeah, I think I experienced some of that from my parents too. So I guess it goes on and on. Um, so getting a little bit more taboo possibly. So you can answer or not depending on how you feel. But some youth culture voices in the seventies promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent that you know of were drugs available or accessible and campus life? BK: They were very available. Very accessible. And used a lot. Rebecca: Used a lot? Would it be like during classes that people would be on drugs or was it more part of an after school activity? BK: I think would be more of an after school activity. I mean, there may well have been I know for sure there are people with substance abuse issues. Um, that impacted their schooling. And so yeah, there I'm sure there were kids that were stoned in class and, and I’ve had classmates have seen with the shakes when bars not open till 11. So, yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Was there a discussion about danger, about drugs at the time? BK: Uh, yeah. For sure. Rebecca: So there were people who, who had concerns and then some people who not as much or. BK: I don't think we were very different. Rebecca: Okay. Gotcha. BK: Don’t think young people necessarily think about that but in terms of, you know, just say no to drugs, all the. Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. Would- Okay. Yeah. Um, so nowadays a lot of my generation, we think about the seventies, it's, it's sort of a groovy sort of tripping kind of space and time. Um, were psychedelic drugs a part of the, the culture on campus at all? BK: Well, LSD, these are the drugs, LSD, cocaine and marijuana. That was pretty much it. Rebecca: Okay. And when you say it was like accessible on campus, was that through there was like a hook up that people knew about and students or like how how dis it integrate itself- BK: Well there wasn't a cannabis store like there is now. Rebecca: Absolutely. Okay. All right. So that's everything that I've got on on that sort of section. So moving on to our second theme, which is the female experience on campus. So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the second wave of feminism, and that as part of the counterculture movement, women during the early seventies sought to break down some gender barriers. Um, does that resonate with your experience at the University of Ottawa? BK: Mm hmm. It does. Rebecca: Yeah. Well, you were a female in law school then. Did you feel isolated in that or…? BK: No, We were a precisely one third of the class, so if we were 180, there were, um, 60 women in the first year. And the- by the end of the third year, we'd lost a few women and a few men, but more, I think perhaps more women than men. So certainly the being, uh, going to law school as a woman was not a standardized route. And the- when I left law school and when I was in practice, I would say I saw that more, um, you know, but there were women in the law groups. There were you know, there was some bonding. But I honestly, I enjoyed dating. So and I don't date women. So that was more it it really was like, hey, this is a lots of single men here. Rebecca: So it's sort of exciting to be sitting amongst the sea of them. BK: Well, yeah, it was fun there. I can say it was there was always… Rebecca: You had your pick of the litter with them then. So did you feel that there were programs or clubs or activities where women were either less present or less welcome? BK: Oh, hockey for sure. Yeah. And that was a barrier. And I think that's one of the things like this idea that, you know, there was a hockey intramural hockey and that would be something that would exclude women. And then there were a few women that played hockey. And it's not so it's not like it is now. Like that, I think was one of the barriers. So that missing out in the locker room talk or the golf talk, that kind of thing. And that's when golf, not when we were students, but later on the, uh, it was I would say it persists even now, my graduation from or my the day I was called to the bar was April 13th, 1981, and there's a group of classmates, all male, that meet every April 13th at the Prest- at the Prescott, where we used to go after the bar and, you know, sometimes I get invited, sometimes I don’t. I'm just like, Guys, come on, it's 50 years on. Let's just start- Rebecca: So still to this day you weren’t invited. Or you are or aren’t. BK: I ah, yeah. I mean, I could always myself remember think, you know, email Henry and say what's what time I'm going to be there. At our 25th anniversary and I was the only woman that showed up and I went to the bathroom and I'm calling classmates. Come on, get down here. Rebecca: Wow. Wow. That almost shocks me quite a bit that that is still something that persists now. BK: I don't think it's and I don't think it's a conscious thing. Rebecca: Of course. Right. BK: It’s not a conscious Not a conscious thing, but yeah, it does. Rebecca: Wow. BK: So so those guys that formed a tight group, right. Hung around still, you know, they went on fishing trips and that kind of stuff. But I personally wouldn't be interested in going fishing, so maybe that's not such a bad thing. But, you know, and maybe there are groups of women. I've been in a book club for 40 years, so that's outside of the but with classmates from law school. And when we graduated thought, well, we need to- And honestly, if a man tried to join us… No no no no… Rebecca: Okay. So you made your own space, as women, to be together. BK: Well yeah. That’s right. And so even though like many of us that went to law school together and some of the husbands may want to sit down and chat, yeah no, and we all know we all went to school together, but this is a woman only space. Rebecca: Yes. Wow. What do you think that that sort of- did you feel that sort of bond with women while you were doing your studies there? And did you rely on each other just being there or were you really doing your thing? BK: I was just doing my own thing. Rebecca: Yeah. Love that. BK: Well, that I put my head down and work. Yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel while you were in the classrooms that as a woman or looking at other women, that they were less likely to raise their hand or be called upon or or things like that? BK: Um, no, I don't think we would tolerate that. But what we did have was at law school in particular, one criminal law professor who was just vile. Yeah. Rebecca: Towards women. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Like in, in his treatment or in his thoughts? BK: Well it was his treatment, his examples, you know, talking about rape and where there's a lot of sexual assault is a huge part of the workload here it’s amazing, it’s discouraging. It's depressing how many cases there are. I've heard someone describe it as, you know, like there's a war against women and children that people just don't even know about. Talk about domestic violence and, you know well you know, women hit men, you know, not what we're seeing. Yeah. Rebecca: Wow, that’s interesting. Did you ever have a moment in your law studies where it was too hard, or was that always just you decided you were going to law school? You would be a lawyer, You would. You'd stick with it. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. What made law school the path? BK: Uh when I was a teenager, I you know, you did- think in Winnipeg we did aptitude test. What do you want to do? So you had to start to choose your courses. You know what stream were you going to go into and those were a bunch of potential careers. I got teaching, social work. And then I thought, well, law would be, um, you’d have more power to really effect change or help people or, you know, resolve difficulties. And I think that's turned out to be true. Rebecca: Yeah. Did it end up being harder than you thought it would be? BK: I was 19 when I got my B.A. and 22 when I got my LLB, so I just put my head down and worked. It was hard for sure. It was hard in undergrad because I did six courses at a time. So we talk about free time. I did not have a lot of it. And yeah. Rebecca: Did you feel like being so head down in your studies you had been missing out on some of the social aspects? BK: Probably. Oh, I knew. Rebecca: That didn't affect you. BK: Well, I'm a pretty sociable person. You probably have gathered that by now. Rebecca: Yes. BK: I mean a large family. So it- uh, and I would go out pretty much every night. So no, I don't think it made a big difference. But I also was was working hard. Yeah. Rebecca: How did you maintain that school life balance? Like were you tired? BK: I suppose. But I was also young. Rebecca: Yes. BK: Yeah. No, I think the the, the around exam times was very, very intense. And usually by the end of an exam period, about the only thing that I could eat without being sick was scrambled eggs. Just yeah. Rebecca: Right. Were you living at home while you were there or? BK: I lived at home when I was doing my undergrad and then my parents- and my first year of law school. And then my parents- dad got transferred to Prince Edward Island, so got an apartment on Cumberland Street. Rebecca: How did that- did that have any effect on the way you experienced university? BK: Oh, for sure. Being on campus was I mean, where I lived on Cumberland Street, we couldn't be any closer than the next year. I moved to Somerset, so it was a bit more of a hike. I suppose it was faster to get to classes and that kind of thing. Rebecca: Did you feel like being on your own and living closer to campus, you felt more integrated in the culture of the university? BK: I don't think it made a difference that way. Rebecca: You were head down working. Okay. So I'm going to move to a bit of a different topic. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning your generation had rebelled against a lot of the values of your parents generation. Do you find that to be true? BK: Well, I think there were you know, certainly if somebody was if people were living together, you know, if a couple decide to live together generally it was the code you could not tell their parents and their parents very rarely knew that they were shacked up. It was a term that we used, and I don't think that's the case anymore. But I think there was. And that- but I think other forms of rebellion, probably more on the sex than anything, drugs maybe be more accessible, I think. But whether it was drugs or my parents generation was alcohol, it was still a substance, mind altering substance. So is it more rebellious to use drugs than to drink? Drinking would have been more in line with them, but either way, you look at it. Yeah. Rebecca: Right. So did- were these topics that kids would have talk to their parents about or was it- BK: I would never in a million years talk to my parents about that. No. Rebecca: Okay. Do you think it was because they were your parents or because of the thoughts that they had had? BK: We just never would have talked to our parents about that. It was just not expected. Like I could call my dad anytime and he would come and pick me up. And would never make a comment about what state I was in. You know, if I was inebriated or whatever. But the- and I just when I was 18, I just stopped using any drugs at all because I just I you know, I could drink and I could be just pretty much the same as I am now, just even more talkative. But drugs does something to you and sort of just like, no, I'm not who I am, so I'm not going to to do that. Rebecca: So your experience was not actually that it aided to reaching a higher level of anything. It was impeding your ability to be you. BK: Me. Yeah. Rebecca: Do you feel like your peers felt the same way about that? BK: Well, never talked about it. Rebecca: Okay, interesting. Um, so to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to to mobilize for a more just society or a change socially or, or was that not really a topic at hand? BK: Well, I you know, I think that there were definitely issues. I mean, abortion and was one, having access to safe abortion was an issue. And I had friends, you know, we went down to the states, come back on a bus from New York, bleeding and in pain and suffering. So I think that there was more agitation over that. Like, I think that was definitely a cause. That was a concern. Rebecca: And so were you or was there demonstrations or protests or was there a culture at the university of speaking about things? BK: I think we spoke about things, but I don't remember protests. Honestly, I don't think that was a feature very much in the seventies. Rebecca: Right. Okay. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so we've talked about this a little bit, but maybe elaborating a little bit more. To what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions and values were were outdated? BK: Well, I think maybe like I said, I alluded to it on the, you know, the sexual front relation, that kind of relationship. But I don’t- yeah, I don't know. I guess you could watch TV shows from the seventies like the All in the Family, that didn’t- that wasn't my experience with my family. My mom was politically active and she if you were talking to her and she was born in the thirties, she was more politically active than I was. So she's I've got pictures of her at protests and that kind of thing. So but I didn't have time for that, because I was studying. Rebecca: Do you think if you hadn't been in such an intensive program, it would have shifted the way you looked at social dynamics on the campus? BK: No, no. Rebecca: Um, do you feel like your generation's views on marriage and what it meant to build a family were were changing compared to generations before? BK: Possibly. I mean, I do know that we would have very intense discussions about the role of women and the um- so when I was married and raising my kids, I really felt it was important that my then husband spend equal amount of time, that there is an equitable division that, you know, he could take kids to doctor's appointments as well as I could. And not everybody would feel that way. I see a very different path now. I find that young women are- I find it discouraging. That I hire a woman and and then she comes and she's afraid to say that she's pregnant. And I think well, that's not what we were fighting for. We had terrible maternity benefits. I lost a job from having family, you know, saying you're more devoted to your kids than you are to this work. Well, what are you talking about? My billings are great. All that- you know, that’s just wrong. So, you know, I think that that’s- and my career did not suffer over that. But yeah, I feel like there's more now. My observation is that there's like a going back and that people aren't fighting as hard to have a good career and family. Rebecca: Hm, yeah. So do you have a hope that that pendulum will swing back to the causes that you guys were so invested in? BK: Well, I think it'll swing back when women realize that they're being subjugated again. Rebecca: Because it's happening quieter than it had been before. BK: And with more willing participation. You know, it's great to say, you know, my goal in life is to make a nice house and raise kids and have all the time to drive kids to a soccer game or whatever. It's a whole other thing than when you find yourself alone and without the means to support yourself and your kids. And when your kids leave home, does that mean that you’re, you know, what your- if that's your your only goal. Yeah. So I feel like that's been really important. Well, I know this, it's been important to me to make a contribution, and the work that I do is I can see the impact of that on Canadians. I can see the impact of that, on how the court works. And, and my kids are great. Rebecca: So it worked. BK: So it worked! But it's a lot of work. It’s really hard and you have to be conscious and intentional all the time and you have to think. And you know, there were times when the boys were little, I'd go to bed and just feeling sick to my stomach. I was so tired, you know. And, uh. Rebecca: Do you feel like your partner had felt the same way? BK: Oh, probably not. Rebecca: Right, okay. So it was even as it could be but there was still… BK: Yeah. Rebecca: There’s still roles. There were still roles. But that probably, and I know still exist today. BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so was there, and if so, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as the most out of whack that needed fixing? BK: Well, I think it was women's rights and, and my 20 year old self is surprised to hear my 67 year old self saying that. But, you know, like looking back on it. The sexual harassment that we put up with, you know, from professors from I've had, you know, uh, it was creepy and gross. And I think that, you know, hopefully that's better. Rebecca: Yeah, I would hope. I would hope so. I hope so. Do you feel that when you looked around at the men around you that they were seeing the same things that you had been seeing as a woman? BK: Oh, probably not. Yeah, But, you know, I had good friends who were men and, you know, we- but it was instructive- But one of- and this is varying from the seventies but many of the products. So when I was practicing law and I was in a- representing some clients, the men that were, and they were all men, construction workers and the company that they were working for had gone bankrupt. So there's a thing called construction leans and the- it's a whole scheme to make sure that people get paid. So the first people that get paid are the workers. Then, you know, it's between the banks and the the different lenders and people. So this was a construction project, a building project. And so in this settlement and things are you're with a judge and you've got all the lawyers and you have clients and it's big tables, formal thing and just divvying up the assets. And I was pregnant with my second child and looking around the room, I think I am the only woman here and I'm in this day and I just say, you. Then I thought, Wow. And my clients are the only ones getting money. So I think, yes! One of my classmates was in the room and so we met up afterwards, you know, at a social gathering. And he says, yeah, I was looking around the room and I was just thinking, huh, [she’s] the only one, only woman in this room. I wonder if she feels uncomfortable. And I said, I did notice the fact that I was the only woman. So it's so hopefully that's better. And, you know, I'll look at it from 1990 when Chief Justice Dixon retired and I went to this big retirement like ballroom kind of thing at the Chateau Laurier, and it was just a sea of white men, middle aged. And, you know, I think and I wonder if I'll see a difference. Then when Chief Justice McLaughlin retired in 2017 and a similar big ballroom thing, and it was a much more diverse crowd. And so when we talked about that and then you know that the women men thing, I think that was a big thing for me. But then the racial aspect we haven’t talked about that at all. But I would say that was another feature of diversity that yeah. Rebecca: So speaking on that a little bit, when you looked around campus, was there a lot of racial diversity at the time? BK: To a certain extent, but I would say mostly there were a lot of students from Africa, from the Francophone countries Rebecca: Oh okay, right. That makes sense to me. Okay. Did you see any discrimination happening against them or was, were you so doing your thing that it wasn't really part of what you witnessed there. BK: Probably wouldn't have been what I witnessed, and I think it was more like my interactions were mostly at dances. Cause I like dancing, so. Rebecca: Were your dances- this is of my own curiosity. Did- were there like dance moves like? BK: Yeah, you know that the 1970s there was a whole music called disco. Rebecca: Yes. BK: And there were dances, the hustle, the bump. There was all kinds of. Yeah. Rebecca: So you would do the hustle? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: Oh, that's amazing. BK: I know. And it was great. And so this is like, if you want to go back to my school and you starting in the sixties in gym class, we would do- learn dances and, in Winnipeg one of the I remember we had to learn the polka and that was like essential for going to socials. You had to know how to polka. So it was actually built into the school curriculums. But every school that I ever went to, you know, once you get to like, I guess grade six or so, grade seven, I guess grade seven, we would have on Fridays once a month, maybe more often sock hops after school and you take off your shoes and you dance, sock hoppy, and then that when you got to high school, there were regular dances. And I can remember Mum, uh, one time was my good friend came over and Mum would sew us into our dresses so our bra straps, wouldn't show. Rebecca: Wow. BK: Or maybe she had other reasons for sewing us into our dresses, but… Rebecca: Excellent point! Oh, my goodness. That's amazing to hear because the dances that I've experienced are mostly people standing in the gym talking to each other. And there isn't a- there is no dancing. BK: Well, and we used to like in high school in Winnipeg, they- I went to because of Dad's career, I lived all over but there was really regimented. Like if you didn't have a dance partner, it didn't matter. You would line up in rows so you'd be dancing opposite somebody. So if you were standing up against the wall, we called them wallflowers, it was because you wanted to. But there was no reason not to be in there and dancing. And it was just, when it was the slow dances. And then of course, you would have to pair up with somebody. But and that could be a bit more awkward if you didn't find anybody but no, definitely it was. And I noticed that from my sons, like they were never, [son’s name] was a little more involved in student culture and in high school, but the dances were kind of few and far between. And and that was really a fun thing because it was just kind of innocuous and innocent and, you know, Yeah. But me and my friends still, like, of one group of friends where you clear out a space and we put on the music and dance. Rebecca: Oh, my goodness. Are you listening to music now or? BK: More Abba. And.. Rebecca: Yes! And who, who were the who were the ones of the time for you? BK: The of the bands that I liked. Well, loved The Who, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, ABBA was always very entertaining. Um, Doobie Brothers. I don't know. There's a lot. Rebecca: Excellent. BK: Yeah. Bee Gees were great. Oh, so you got to start up dancing. Rebecca: I know! I know. BK: And how are you going to do that? Rebecca: How am I going to do that? BK: Yeah. Rebecca: I’ll figure it out. BK: Okay. Rebecca: Figure it out. I'll host a sock hop. So, I’m sad to leave this conversation, but I do have to get back to politics. Did you feel while you were at the university looking at the government, did it feel fair and responsive to the citizens needs? Did you feel heard even if action wasn't necessarily taken? BK: I honestly don't think I've ever gave that much thought, you know. Rebecca: No problem. BK: I mean, there was big constitutional negotiations going on that culminated in the Constitution Act of 18- of 1982. So, you know, definitely. Yeah. Rebecca: Okay. Um, I want to hop into sort of another topic that we've touched a little bit. So cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the seventies. Do you agree with that statement? BK: Yes. Rebecca: Okay. Can you elaborate a bit more about what that meant? BK: Well, if you didn't have to worry about being pregnant, that was a liberating effect. And the abortion, though, I mean, I would that might have been later on like it just I don't think that access to abortion was particularly widespread. So it I think I'd say looking back on it now, I think men have taken it- well we talk about men and women relationships. And I know that there are many different forms, but we're just talking that gender normative, heterosexual straight way. I think that's led to women being treated more poorly. Rebecca: Okay. BK: Yeah, I think it started out a little bit more equal. And I my observation now is like, huh. Rebecca: Why do you think that is? BK: I don't know. Why are women letting themselves be taken advantage of? Rebecca: That’s true. That is a big part of it. BK: I kind of think it is. Rebecca: I agree. Yeah. Um.. BK: Because it's hard. Rebecca: Yeah, it's hard to be the one that always has to stay powerful. BK: Yeah. Yeah, right. Rebecca: You can't relax into your being because you have to be a strong one. Have you felt that in your career or was being strong and owning your power just always an easy part of you? BK: Oh, no, I wouldn't say that was always an easy part of me. But, and confidence comes with experience and age. Rebecca: There you go. That's true. BK: I have plenty of it now so. Both, experience and age. Yeah. Rebecca: Um, so I want to hop into something you touched on a little bit, but if it's anything that you don't want to answer and you're uncomfortable with, then we'll skip the section. But it's talking a little bit more about sexuality and harassment. If you're comfortable, I'll ask you a couple of questions about that. BK: Sure. Rebecca: Okay. So many universities today have many policies and rules and regulations about sexual harassment. To what extent did you find the university monitored social events or mixture- mixers or campus experience at all, specifically for women? BK: Oh, uh completely nonexistent. As I recall. Rebecca: Did- was that an anger that you had that that there wasn't more monitoring? BK: I had an incident where a professor, uh, came close to raping me and I had nowhere to turn. And I'm pissed off about that. At the time, all we could do was you know I told my girlfriends what happened, and, you know, I had- the only recourse I had was, well, if I had to meet with him I took a girlfriend and we just kind of glare at him and that was it. But I would hope now… Rebecca: In my experience it’s different, Yeah. BK: You’d be able to say, okay- Rebecca: Something happened here. BK: Something happened here. And you know. Rebecca: So, is that something that you still think about? BK: Well, it's obviously, yeah, because I'm bringing it up. But it is. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this, even to do this interview, which is to think, well, maybe that's something that was silenced then and- Rebecca: Doesn’t have to be now. BK: Yeah, yeah. Rebecca: When you- in your- I don't know, professionally. Do you see a lot of those experiences happening now or is that not something that comes across to you at all? BK: Well, in my position, yeah. I mean it was very- I’m senior executive here and so the sexual harassment is definitely a lot less than it was. And I think we have better systems in place to to address anything that- behaviours that are problematic. And it's it's not a big part of what goes on. So. Rebecca: Okay. Um, our generation is very interested in the free love movement. Um, what was the perception of premarital sex at the University of Ottawa in the seventies? BK: Well, lots of people were doing it, so yeah. Rebecca: It was par for the course. It was just what was happening and was it just sort of happening? Was there an encouragement for it as a rebellion or? BK: I don't think people needed much encouragement. Rebecca: So was just it was just freedom. Do you feel like that was different from your parents generation? BK: Probably. But I think that comes back to birth control because I know I did talk to my mom about it and she would just say, Oh, you know, every month everybody would be worried. And if you got pregnant, you'd have to get married, you know, like, yeah, to have a baby out of wedlock, which is like, well, the most awful thing and. Rebecca: Right. Okay. And that was a conversation that you had with your mother. So that was more a topic that you were free to talk about? BK: I was free to talk to my parents about anything, but we just it honestly never would have occurred to talk to them about…Yeah. It just was different. I talk to my kids about more things and just like, Why are you telling me this? I don't want to know. Rebecca: Do you feel like you ever did that with your parents? BK: Told them stuff they didn't want to know? No, because they would just keep it to myself! Rebecca: Right. And you don't feel like that’s happening now. BK: No. Yeah.Why are you asking me to help edit this essay? I've already been to school. Rebecca and BK: I don't need to do it again. Rebecca: Very true. That’s what I tell my sister when she wants me to give her help. Anyway, um. Yeah. So I guess this kind of talked about this a little bit, but do you feel like your parents generation worried about you guys having premarital or do they maybe not have known that it was happening? BK: Or they weren't that clued out. No, no, I think yeah. No, I don't know. Rebecca: All right. BK: Don’t think it was an issue. Rebecca: That has all the questions that I have. BK: Awesome. Rebecca: Do you have anything else that you want to mention while you have the microphone? BK: While I have the mic, you know, it was two very different experiences on the campus and in the seventies and two different programs. And, uh, but I still think that that initial instinct I had to go to OttawaU was the right one. Yeah. Rebecca: Awesome. Transcription Translation Rebecca : D'accord, nous enregistrons. Nous sommes en train d'enregistrer. L'une des premières choses dont nous parlons est l'impact de la culture populaire. Les historiens de la culture soutiennent que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. Comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une université bilingue, nous voulons en savoir un peu plus sur la façon dont les francophones et les anglophones ont collaboré dans ce domaine. De nos jours, lorsque les étudiants ont du temps libre, ils ont tendance à se tourner vers l'électronique, les médias sociaux, etc. Dans les années 70, il n'y avait pas autant d'électronique. Alors, que faisiez-vous pendant votre temps libre ? BK : Eh bien, quand j'étais sur le campus, il y avait, euh, quel est le bâtiment où se trouve la cafétéria qui est, vous savez, le grand bâtiment central ? La bibliothèque en dépend... Rebecca : Euh, Lamereux ? BK : Oui. Et il y avait une descente au rez-de-chaussée, une sorte de plancher abaissé avec des escaliers autour. Rebecca : Oh oui ! Comme une sorte de fosse dans le sol, un peu ? BK : Oui. Alors nous, vous savez, si vous êtes entre deux cours, allez prendre un café et asseyez-vous là et engagez la conversation. L'autre chose, c'est que je me souviens qu'il y avait toujours quelque chose qui se passait à des tables organisées par des groupes d'intérêt. Je me souviens que le Parti communiste avait une table et vous savez, juste une sorte de euh, ouais. Je gravitais donc davantage en personne et c'était comme le centre universitaire, c'est ainsi que je voyais les choses. Rebecca : Je dirais encore que c'est le cas. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Vous passiez donc votre temps libre avec d'autres personnes, pas nécessairement seul. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Je dirais que c'est très différent de nos jours, malheureusement. Euh, diriez-vous que c'est l'un des endroits les plus populaires sur le campus ou y a-t-il d'autres endroits sur le campus ou en dehors dont vous vous souvenez ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, cela dépend. J'ai obtenu deux diplômes à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années 70, donc mon premier diplôme était en arts et j'ai obtenu mon diplôme en 76 et le second était en droit et le diplôme de droit - la faculté de droit Fauteux Hall. Une fois que vous y étiez, c'était une expérience très différente. Au troisième étage, il y a un salon et on y passait son temps libre, on jouait au bridge, ce genre de choses. Mais c'était beaucoup plus, l'école de droit, euh, c'est beaucoup plus intense dans le sens où nous étions 180 étudiants en première année et nous étions trois groupes de euh, 60. J'étais donc dans le groupe B et j'ai noué des amitiés intenses avec des gens qui étaient dans ce groupe et des gens qui étaient dans cette année-là et que nous entretenons, vous savez, 50 ans plus tard, moins avec les gens avec qui j'étais ami qu'avec ceux des Arts. Il y a donc peut-être plus de contacts, mais moins de liens profonds. Rebecca : Ces liens plus profonds sont-ils le fait de personnes que vous avez rencontrées professionnellement après avoir obtenu votre diplôme ? BK : Certains d'entre eux, certains d'entre eux. Et d'autres, nous avons juste, vous savez, gardé le contact. Nous avons passé beaucoup de temps ensemble et l'école de droit, c'est très... c'est très dur. Rebecca : Vous vous êtes donc vraiment rapprochés. BK : C'est ainsi que vous vous rapprochez. C'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous assisté à des spectacles, à des pièces de théâtre, à des concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre pendant votre séjour ? BK : Euh, je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'événements en direct - pas de théâtre. Je ne pense pas, mais certainement des danses. Il y avait des danses organisées. Rebecca : Organisé par l'école ou par l'association des étudiants ? BK : L'association des étudiants. Je ne sais pas qui, mais je me souviens qu'il y avait des danses avec, euh, je me souviens avec des étudiants étrangers pour que les étudiants étrangers puissent rencontrer, euh, des gens. Mais nous avons fait beaucoup de choses comme dans les années soixante-dix. Je dirais que c'était une caractéristique importante. Si vous vouliez sortir, vous alliez peut-être maintenant dans des clubs, mais à l'époque, c'était des discothèques. La danse était donc très présente. Et vous savez, il était tout à fait normal de s'habiller et d'aller danser. Il y avait des soirées dansantes à l'université. Rebecca : Wow, c'est fabuleux. Quel genre de... que signifiait être habillé dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, eh bien, je pense que c'est à peu près ce que cela signifie aujourd'hui. Vous mettez une robe... Rebecca : Oui, comme si vous aviez une tenue de soirée ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Wow. D'accord. Donc, comme l'Université d'Ottawa est une institution bilingue, à quel point diriez-vous qu'il y a eu intégration linguistique entre l'anglais et le français, c'est-à-dire que vous étiez dans les mêmes classes, les mêmes programmes ou les mêmes activités parascolaires ? BK : Je pense que c'était plus après l'école. Le groupe avec lequel je traînais quand j'étais étudiant était vraiment un groupe très bilingue. Je dirais qu'il y avait un noyau de 12 personnes avec lesquelles je traînais beaucoup et la moitié d'entre elles étaient francophones et du nord de l'Ontario, si je me souviens bien, parce que je sais que j'ai visité Blind River avec l'une d'entre elles après l'obtention de mon diplôme. Nous participions à nos activités et nous sortions, vous savez, il y avait un club de jazz et ce genre de choses. Il y avait des choses au marché. Il y avait un club qui s'appelait Le Hibou, le Owl, Le Hibou, et c'était sur le campus ou près du campus ? Et euh, le... c'était vraiment un endroit où il y avait de la musique live et, vous savez, différents groupes et des choses comme ça Rebecca : Lorsque vous étiez sur le campus, aviez-vous l'impression d'être au milieu d'un campus ou d'être vraiment intégré au centre-ville ? BK : Quand je suis arrivé à l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est une façon détournée de répondre à la question. J'avais fait une année de cégep à Montréal. J'étais au collège Marianopolis et mon père était dans l'armée, il a donc été transféré de la base de Saint-Hubert au quartier général national, au quartier général de la Défense, et j'aurais pu rester à Montréal et terminer mon programme à Marianopolis et ensuite je serais probablement allé à McGill parce que c'était juste de l'autre côté de la rue. Et, vous savez, cela aurait été un chemin complètement différent. Mais j'étais un peu intimidée à l'idée de vivre seule à Montréal, alors j'avais 17 ans et j'allais avoir 18 ans. Marianopolis n'avait pas de dortoirs, alors je suis venu à Ottawa et je suis allé sur le campus de Carleton et sur le campus de l'Université d'Ottawa. Et j'ai trouvé que Carleton était horrible. Je me disais : " Oh mon Dieu, il n'y a personne ici. Il y a tous ces tunnels. Où sommes-nous ? C'est comme, ouais, c'est froid. Je n'avais pas une bonne impression de Carleton, mais à l'Université d'Ottawa, je me suis dit : " Oh oui, cet endroit est cool, c'est vivant. Il y a beaucoup de monde. Il y a de l'anglais et du français. Ça sonne juste. Et je me suis dit, non, c'est là que je veux aller. Rebecca : Wow. C'est très, très intéressant. Je vois ce que vous voulez dire au sujet de la différence entre Carleton et l'Université d'Ottawa, c'est certain. C'est définitivement une attraction. Euh, dans le même ordre d'idées, pour revenir au bilinguisme, je dirais que la plupart des étudiants anglophones ne sont pas bilingues, alors que la plupart des francophones sont bilingues. Diriez-vous que c'était la même chose dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Euh, oui. Probablement. Mais, vous savez, c'était un endroit plus petit et je ne sais pas si les lignes étaient aussi bien tracées. Encore une fois, je comparerais l'expérience artistique à celle de l'école de droit. Je pense qu'à l'époque comme aujourd'hui, vous pouviez suivre le même cours dans l'une ou l'autre langue et vous pouviez écrire dans votre propre langue. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Donc vous ne seriez pas... donc l'idée était que vous ne seriez pas pénalisé. Mais je me sentais comme, Oh, je ne sais pas. Est-ce que j'ai vraiment confiance ? Et si le professeur se contentait de dire que j'écris en anglais et qu'il n'a peut-être pas de préjugés à mon égard et que je n'obtiendrais peut-être pas une aussi bonne note parce que je voulais aller à l'école de droit et que mes notes étaient donc importantes pour moi. Mais je pense qu'étant donné que les gens avec qui je traînais étaient bilingues, je ne sais pas si je l'ai remarqué. Mais je sais que certains de mes camarades de classe n'ont pas obtenu leur diplôme parce qu'il fallait passer un examen dans l'autre langue. C'était donc obligatoire. Et donc il y avait... tout le monde devait... que vous soyez francophone ou anglophone, vous deviez prouver votre bilinguisme avant d'obtenir votre diplôme. Ce n'est peut-être pas ce qui s'est passé à la faculté de droit. Mon expérience à la faculté de droit a été la suivante : non, j'ai perdu une grande partie de mon français, tout était en anglais. C'était beaucoup plus cloisonné. Les étudiants en droit civil et en common law ne se mélangeaient pas. Il n'y avait pas de programme de common law en français, qui a commencé l'année après que j'ai obtenu mon diplôme. C'est donc, mais je pense que c'était une très bonne façon de faire respecter le fait que nous sommes un campus bilingue. Et ce qu'ils ont fait - ce que vous avez fait, c'est que vous avez passé un test d'aptitude - comme vous avez passé un test et vous avez été orienté. Vous deviez donc suivre un cours dans votre deuxième langue et vous deviez le réussir. Quand j'ai passé le test, je venais d'arriver de Montréal, j'étais bilingue et on m'a mis dans cette classe et je me suis dit : " Oh mon Dieu, ces gens ne savent rien. Ils n'ont aucune idée. C'est de la folie. Je suis donc allée me plaindre au Bureau des langues secondes et j'ai dit, vous savez, et je parlais à la dame en français, et elle m'a dit, mais vous êtes bilingue. J'ai dit, oui, mais regardez la classe dans laquelle on m'a mis. Et elle a regardé mon score au test de placement, le test de compétence, il était assez mauvais. Et j'ai dit, eh bien, cela ne reflète pas mes capacités, alors mettez-moi dans une meilleure classe. Et c'était... et je me souviens très bien de cette classe, c'était vraiment... notre professeur venait de France. C'était un petit groupe et vous savez, c'était bien. Et vous- c'était la seule exigence dans cette classe, on passait cette classe et c'était un euh, ce que je c'était un essentiel pour obtenir leur diplôme, si je me souviens bien. C'était comme ça. Mais je sais, je sais que c'était comme ça. Rebecca : Oui, wow. J'aimerais que ce soit encore le cas, parce que je pense qu'il y a un fossé entre l'anglais et le français, et c'est vraiment malheureux. Oui, nous avons une institution tellement incroyable, mais il y a une telle séparation à bien des égards. BK : Oui. Et, et peut-être que mon expérience aurait été différente en tant qu'anglophone unilingue. Rebecca : Mm hmm. C'est vrai. BK : Je n'aurais peut-être pas traîné avec les gens avec lesquels je traînais, donc, vous savez, mon expérience est peut-être unique, mais... Rebecca : Oui. Dans le même ordre d'idées, y avait-il une culture des rencontres entre les anglophones et les francophones ? BK : Je ne sais pas s'il y avait une culture des rencontres dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : D'accord, d'accord. BK : Nous ne sommes pas sortis ensemble. Rebecca : Tu n'es pas sorti avec quelqu'un. BK : J'allais dans des clubs et nous dansions. Et à partir de là, vous pouviez rencontrer quelqu'un avec qui vous sortiez. Mais oui, je ne sais pas ce qu'est une culture de la rencontre. Rebecca : D'accord. Mais est-ce que les Français et les Anglais s'intéresseraient l'un à l'autre ? Il n'y avait pas vraiment de frontière à franchir ? BK : Pas dans mon monde. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. Parce que vous avez commencé en étant bilingue et en côtoyant des gens bilingues... BK : Oui. Rebecca : C'était donc la même chose. BK : Oui Rebecca : D'accord. Hum, donc je suppose qu'en fait, vous avez un peu abordé ce sujet. Aujourd'hui, nous utilisons l'expression " culture de la fête " pour désigner tout ce qui se passe en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête dans les années soixante-dix quand vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, oh, je, je veux dire, à part le jeu Panda, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait quoi que ce soit qui soit comme, qu'est-ce qui se passe maintenant ? Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Comme des fêtes à la maison ou des choses comme ça. BK : Eh bien, il y avait des fêtes à la maison, c'est sûr, et... mais elles ne débordaient pas dans la rue et ne provoquaient pas d'émeutes et ce genre de choses. Non, il n'y avait rien de tel à part le jeu du Panda. Et je pense que c'était plutôt, si je me souviens bien, limité au jeu du Panda. Et dans les environs. Mais nous organisions des fêtes, nous sortions, ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Mais y avait-il un sentiment de rivalité entre l'Université d'Ottawa et Carlton à l'époque ? BK : Oui. Oui, oui. Rebecca : Cela a duré. Oui. Jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Donc, en prenant peut-être un ton un peu plus lourd, nous parlons beaucoup dans notre classe de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Viêt Nam. Dans notre classe, nous parlons beaucoup de la façon dont les étudiants des années soixante-dix ressentaient la guerre du Vietnam et nous émettons des hypothèses à ce sujet. Comment décririez-vous ce que les étudiants pensaient de la guerre lorsque vous y étiez ? BK : Euh, je ne sais pas si la guerre du Vietnam a beaucoup été évoquée... Quand ils... quand j'étais là. Je ne sais pas, mais je dirais qu'à la fin des années soixante, il y avait beaucoup plus de culture de protestation et les choses avaient - il y avait une grande différence. Et si je me souviens bien, il y a une grande différence entre ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante et ce qui s'est passé dans les années soixante-dix. Et je me souviens d'un professeur qui disait, non, vous savez, nous étions tellement plus complaisants et pas assez activistes pour... Rebecca : Vous parler en tant qu'étudiants ? BK : En tant qu'étudiants, oui, que vous n'étiez pas - que nous n'étions pas, vous savez, nous sommes plus intéressés par le type d'emploi que nous allons obtenir dans ce genre de choses. Un professeur des années soixante a été déçu par ses étudiants des années soixante-dix. La guerre du Viêt Nam a définitivement marqué mon enfance, l'armée de mon père, et il avait des collègues qui avaient combattu, qui... vous savez, des homologues américains qui avaient combattu pendant la guerre. Ils étaient, euh, terriblement traités à leur retour parce que la guerre était si impopulaire. C'était donc un aspect. Il y a eu des choses terribles, mais, vous savez, c'était une guerre brutale et le bien ou le mal de cette guerre est une chose, mais c'était une guerre brutale et ce n'était pas, euh, -mais je pense que les protestations, la race, la guerre du Vietnam, euh, je dirais dans les années soixante-dix, les préoccupations environnementales étaient vraiment quelque chose qui m'intéressait. Et à certains égards, la situation s'est améliorée et à d'autres, elle a empiré. Rebecca : Oui. En parlant des années 60, les artistes de rock and roll de l'époque encourageaient diverses formes de protestation. Avez-vous l'impression que le rock and roll, tel que vous l'avez connu dans les années 70 en tant qu'étudiante, était toujours lié à cette sorte de lutte contre le système, ou était-ce plutôt de la musique que vous consommiez ? BK : La musique que vous aimiez. Rebecca : D'accord. D'accord. C'est intéressant. Avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents considérait le rock and roll des années 70 de la même façon, ou est-ce que cela les touchait davantage ? BK : La plupart du temps, ils me disaient simplement de refuser. Je ne pense pas qu'ils aient eu le temps d'y réfléchir. Rebecca : C'est très juste. Oui, je pense que mes parents m'ont aussi fait subir cela. Je suppose que c'est une longue histoire. Euh, ça devient un peu plus tabou peut-être. Vous pouvez donc répondre ou non en fonction de ce que vous ressentez. Mais certaines voix de la culture des jeunes dans les années soixante-dix encourageaient la prise de drogues récréatives. À votre connaissance, dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou accessibles sur les campus ? BK : Ils étaient très disponibles. Très accessibles. Et très utilisés. Rebecca : Beaucoup ? Est-ce que c'était pendant les cours que les gens se droguaient ou est-ce que ça faisait plutôt partie des activités après l'école ? BK : Je pense qu'il s'agirait plutôt d'une activité extrascolaire. Je veux dire qu'il y a peut-être eu, je le sais, des gens qui ont des problèmes de toxicomanie. Hum, cela a eu un impact sur leur scolarité. Et donc oui, je suis sûr qu'il y avait des enfants qui étaient défoncés en classe et, et j'ai eu des camarades de classe qui ont vu les secousses quand les bars n'ouvraient pas jusqu'à 11 heures. Donc, oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Y a-t-il eu une discussion sur le danger, sur les drogues à l'époque ? BK : Euh, oui. C'est certain. Rebecca : Il y avait donc des gens qui avaient des inquiétudes et d'autres qui n'en avaient pas autant ou qui n'en avaient pas du tout. BK : Je ne pense pas que nous étions très différents. Rebecca : D'accord. J'ai compris. BK : Je ne pense pas que les jeunes y pensent nécessairement, mais en termes de, vous savez, dites simplement non aux drogues, tout le... Oui. Rebecca : Oui. D'accord. Oui. Aujourd'hui, beaucoup de gens de ma génération pensent aux années 70, c'est une sorte d'espace-temps groovy et tripant. Les drogues psychédéliques faisaient-elles partie de la culture du campus ? BK : Eh bien, le LSD, voici les drogues, le LSD, la cocaïne et la marijuana. C'est à peu près tout. Rebecca : D'accord. Et quand vous dites que c'était accessible sur le campus, est-ce que c'était par le biais d'un lien que les gens connaissaient et que les étudiants connaissaient, ou comment est-ce que ça s'est intégré... ? BK : Il n'y avait pas de magasin de cannabis comme aujourd'hui. Rebecca : Absolument. D'accord. D'accord. Voilà donc tout ce que j'avais à dire sur cette partie. Passons maintenant à notre deuxième thème, qui est l'expérience féminine sur le campus. Les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la deuxième vague du féminisme et sur le fait que, dans le cadre du mouvement de la contre-culture, les femmes du début des années soixante-dix ont cherché à briser certaines barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que cela correspond à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? BK : Mm hmm. C'est le cas. Rebecca : Oui. Vous étiez une femme à la faculté de droit. Vous êtes-vous sentie isolée ou... ? BK : Non, nous représentions précisément un tiers de la classe, donc si nous étions 180, il y avait, euh, 60 femmes la première année. Et à la fin de la troisième année, nous avions perdu quelques femmes et quelques hommes, mais plus, je pense, peut-être plus de femmes que d'hommes. Il est donc certain que le fait d'être, euh, d'aller à l'école de droit en tant que femme n'était pas un parcours standardisé. Et quand j'ai quitté l'école de droit et que j'ai exercé, je dirais que j'ai vu plus de, euh, vous savez, mais il y avait des femmes dans les groupes de droit. Il y avait des liens entre elles. Mais honnêtement, j'aimais sortir avec des femmes. Je ne sors pas avec des femmes. Donc c'était plus comme ça, c'était vraiment comme, hey, il y a beaucoup d'hommes célibataires ici. Rebecca : C'est donc un peu excitant d'être assis au milieu de cette mer. BK : Eh bien, oui, c'était amusant là-bas. Je peux dire qu'il y avait toujours... Rebecca : Vous avez donc eu l'embarras du choix. Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'il y avait des programmes, des clubs ou des activités où les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins bien accueillies ? BK : Oh, le hockey bien sûr. Oui, c'est vrai. Et c'était un obstacle. Et je pense que c'est l'une des choses comme cette idée que, vous savez, il y avait un hockey intra-muros et que c'était quelque chose qui excluait les femmes. Et puis, il y avait quelques femmes qui jouaient au hockey. Et ce n'est pas comme aujourd'hui. Je pense que c'était l'un des obstacles. Cela n'a pas été pris en compte dans les discussions sur les vestiaires ou sur le golf, ce genre de choses. Et c'est là que le golf, pas quand nous étions étudiants, mais plus tard, c'était, je dirais que ça persiste encore aujourd'hui, mon diplôme ou le jour où j'ai été appelé au barreau était le 13 avril 1981, et il y a un groupe de camarades de classe, tous des hommes, qui se réunissent tous les 13 avril au Prest- au Prescott, où nous avions l'habitude d'aller après le bar et, vous savez, parfois je suis invité, parfois non. Je me dis : "Les gars, allez, ça fait 50 ans. Commençons... Rebecca : Aujourd'hui encore, vous n'avez pas été invité. Ou vous l'êtes ou vous ne l'êtes pas. BK : Ah, oui. Je veux dire, je pouvais toujours me rappeler, vous savez, envoyer un courriel à Henry et lui dire à quelle heure je serai là. Lors de notre 25e anniversaire, j'étais la seule femme à être venue, je suis allée aux toilettes et j'ai appelé mes camarades de classe. Allez, venez ici. Rebecca : Wow. Ouah ! Je suis presque choquée de voir que cela persiste encore aujourd'hui. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit le cas et je ne pense pas que ce soit une chose consciente. Rebecca : Bien sûr. C'est vrai. BK : Ce n'est pas une chose consciente, mais oui. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ces gars-là formaient un groupe soudé, c'est vrai. Ils traînaient encore, vous savez, ils partaient en voyage de pêche et ce genre de choses. Mais personnellement, je n'aurais pas envie d'aller pêcher, alors ce n'est peut-être pas une si mauvaise chose. Mais, vous savez, il y a peut-être des groupes de femmes. Je fais partie d'un club de lecture depuis 40 ans, en dehors de mes camarades de classe de l'école de droit. Et quand nous avons obtenu notre diplôme, nous nous sommes dit qu'il fallait... Et honnêtement, si un homme essayait de se joindre à nous... Non, non, non, non... Rebecca : Vous avez donc créé votre propre espace, en tant que femmes, pour être ensemble. BK : Eh bien, oui. C'est vrai. Et même si beaucoup d'entre nous ont fait leurs études de droit ensemble et que certains maris veulent s'asseoir et discuter, oui non, et nous savons toutes que nous avons fait nos études ensemble, mais c'est un espace réservé aux femmes. Rebecca : Oui. Wow. Que pensez-vous de cette sorte de - avez-vous ressenti cette sorte de lien avec les femmes pendant que vous faisiez vos études là-bas ? Et est-ce que vous comptiez sur la présence de l'autre ou est-ce que vous faisiez vraiment votre travail ? BK : Je faisais ce que je voulais. Rebecca : Oui. J'adore ça. BK : Eh bien, que je me mette au travail. C'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression, lorsque vous étiez dans les salles de classe, qu'en tant que femme ou en regardant d'autres femmes, elles étaient moins susceptibles de lever la main ou d'être sollicitées, ou des choses comme ça ? BK : Euh, non, je ne pense pas que nous tolérerions cela. Mais nous avons eu, à la faculté de droit en particulier, un professeur de droit pénal qui était tout simplement ignoble. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vers les femmes. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Comme dans, dans son traitement ou dans ses pensées ? BK : C'était son traitement, ses exemples, vous savez, parler du viol et du fait que les agressions sexuelles représentent une grande partie de la charge de travail ici, c'est étonnant, c'est décourageant. Le nombre de cas est déprimant. J'ai entendu quelqu'un dire qu'il s'agissait d'une guerre contre les femmes et les enfants dont les gens ne sont même pas conscients. Parler de violence domestique et, vous savez bien, vous savez, les femmes frappent les hommes, vous savez, ce n'est pas ce que nous voyons. Ce n'est pas ce que l'on voit. Rebecca : C'est intéressant. Avez-vous eu un moment dans vos études de droit où c'était trop dur, ou est-ce que vous avez toujours décidé que vous alliez faire du droit ? Vous deviendriez avocat, vous le feriez. Vous vous y tiendriez. BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Qu'est-ce qui a fait que l'école de droit a été la voie à suivre ? BK : Euh, quand j'étais adolescent, vous savez, on faisait - je crois qu'à Winnipeg, on faisait des tests d'aptitude. Que voulez-vous faire ? Il fallait donc commencer à choisir ses cours. Vous saviez dans quelle filière vous alliez vous orienter et il y avait un tas de carrières potentielles. J'ai choisi l'enseignement, le travail social. Et puis j'ai pensé que le droit serait, euh, que vous auriez plus de pouvoir pour vraiment changer les choses ou aider les gens ou, vous savez, résoudre les difficultés. Et je pense que cela s'est avéré vrai. Rebecca : Oui. Est-ce que cela a été plus difficile que vous ne le pensiez ? BK : J'avais 19 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence et 22 ans lorsque j'ai obtenu ma licence en droit. C'était difficile, c'est certain. C'était difficile à l'université parce que je suivais six cours à la fois. Nous parlons donc de temps libre. Je n'en avais pas beaucoup. Et oui. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression qu'en étant si absorbée par vos études, vous aviez manqué certains aspects sociaux ? BK : Probablement. Oh, je le savais. Rebecca : Cela ne vous a pas affecté. BK : Eh bien, je suis quelqu'un d'assez sociable. Vous l'avez probablement compris maintenant. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Je veux dire une famille nombreuse. Et je sortais pratiquement tous les soirs. Alors non, je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une grande différence. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Mais je travaillais aussi beaucoup. Rebecca : Comment avez-vous réussi à maintenir l'équilibre entre l'école et la vie privée ? Etiez-vous fatiguée ? BK : Je suppose. Mais j'étais aussi jeune. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Oui. Non, je pense que les périodes d'examens étaient très, très intenses. En général, à la fin d'une période d'examen, la seule chose que je pouvais manger sans être malade, c'était des œufs brouillés. C'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Est-ce que vous viviez à la maison pendant que vous étiez là-bas ? BK : J'ai vécu à la maison pendant mes études de premier cycle, puis mes parents... et ma première année d'études de droit. Et puis mes parents - mon père a été muté à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard, alors j'ai pris un appartement sur Cumberland Street. Rebecca : Comment cela a-t-il eu un effet sur la façon dont vous avez vécu l'université ? BK : Oh, bien sûr. Lorsque j'habitais sur Cumberland Street, nous ne pouvions pas être plus près que l'année suivante. J'ai déménagé à Somerset, alors c'était un peu plus loin. Je suppose que c'était plus rapide pour se rendre aux cours et ce genre de choses. Rebecca : Avez-vous eu l'impression que le fait d'être seule et de vivre plus près du campus vous a permis de mieux vous intégrer à la culture de l'université ? BK : Je ne pense pas que cela ait fait une différence. Rebecca : Vous étiez au travail, tête baissée. Je vais donc passer à un sujet un peu différent. Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils appellent la révolution de la contre-culture, c'est-à-dire que votre génération s'est rebellée contre beaucoup de valeurs de la génération de vos parents. Trouvez-vous que c'est vrai ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il y avait, vous savez, certainement si quelqu'un vivait ensemble, vous savez, si un couple décidait de vivre ensemble, généralement c'était le code que vous ne pouviez pas dire à leurs parents et leurs parents savaient très rarement qu'ils étaient en concubinage. C'était un terme que nous utilisions, et je ne pense pas que ce soit encore le cas aujourd'hui. Mais je pense que c'était le cas. Et cela - mais je pense que d'autres formes de rébellion, probablement plus sur le plan sexuel qu'autre chose, les drogues sont peut-être plus accessibles, je pense. Mais qu'il s'agisse de drogues ou de l'alcool de la génération de mes parents, il s'agissait toujours d'une substance, d'une substance altérant l'esprit. Est-il donc plus rebelle de se droguer que de boire ? Boire aurait été plus en accord avec eux, mais d'une manière ou d'une autre, il faut voir les choses comme ça. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : C'est vrai. Alors est-ce que... est-ce que c'était des sujets dont les enfants devaient parler à leurs parents ou est-ce que c'était... BK : Je n'aurais jamais parlé de cela à mes parents. Non. Rebecca : D'accord. Pensez-vous que c'était parce qu'ils étaient vos parents ou à cause des pensées qu'ils avaient eues ? BK : Nous n'aurions jamais parlé de cela à nos parents. On ne s'y attendait pas. Je pouvais appeler mon père n'importe quand et il venait me chercher. Et il n'aurait jamais fait de commentaire sur l'état dans lequel je me trouvais. Vous savez, si j'étais en état d'ébriété ou quoi que ce soit d'autre. Mais quand j'ai eu 18 ans, j'ai arrêté de prendre de la drogue parce que je pouvais boire et être à peu près la même que maintenant, même si j'étais plus bavarde. Mais les drogues ont un effet sur vous et vous vous dites : non, je ne suis pas qui je suis, alors je ne vais pas faire ça. Rebecca : Votre expérience n'était donc pas qu'elle vous aidait à atteindre un niveau plus élevé de quelque chose. Il vous empêchait d'être vous-même. BK : Moi. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que vos pairs ressentaient la même chose à ce sujet ? BK : Eh bien, je n'en ai jamais parlé. Rebecca : D'accord, c'est intéressant. Dans quelle mesure les gens de votre cercle social considéraient-ils qu'ils devaient se mobiliser pour une société plus juste ou pour un changement social, ou bien n'était-ce pas vraiment un sujet à l'ordre du jour ? BK : Eh bien, vous savez, je pense qu'il y avait vraiment des problèmes. Je veux dire, l'avortement était un problème, l'accès à un avortement sûr était un problème. Et j'avais des amis, vous savez, nous sommes allés aux États-Unis, nous sommes revenus en bus de New York, en sang, dans la douleur et la souffrance. Je pense donc qu'il y avait plus d'agitation à ce sujet. Je pense que c'était vraiment une cause. C'était une préoccupation. Rebecca : Et donc, y avait-il des manifestations ou des protestations, ou y avait-il une culture à l'université qui consistait à parler de choses et d'autres ? BK : Je pense que nous avons parlé de certaines choses, mais je ne me souviens pas des manifestations. Honnêtement, je ne pense pas qu'il y ait eu beaucoup de manifestations dans les années soixante-dix. Rebecca : C'est vrai. D'accord. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Hum, nous en avons déjà parlé un peu, mais nous pourrions peut-être élaborer un peu plus. Dans quelle mesure votre génération pensait-elle que les notions et les valeurs de vos parents étaient dépassées ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'y ai peut-être fait allusion en ce qui concerne, vous savez, la relation sexuelle, ce genre de relation. Mais je ne sais pas... oui, je ne sais pas. Je suppose que l'on peut regarder des émissions télévisées des années 70 comme All in the Family, mais ce n'est pas... ce n'est pas l'expérience que j'ai eue avec ma famille. Ma mère était politiquement active et si vous lui parliez, elle était née dans les années 30, elle était plus politiquement active que moi. J'ai des photos d'elle à des manifestations et ce genre de choses. Mais je n'avais pas le temps pour ça, parce que j'étudiais. Rebecca : Pensez-vous que si vous n'aviez pas participé à un programme aussi intensif, cela aurait changé votre façon de voir la dynamique sociale sur le campus ? BK : Non, non. Rebecca : Euh, avez-vous l'impression que les opinions de votre génération sur le mariage et sur ce que signifie construire une famille ont changé par rapport aux générations précédentes ? BK : Peut-être. Lorsque j'étais mariée et que j'élevais mes enfants, j'estimais qu'il était important que mon mari passe autant de temps que moi, qu'il puisse emmener les enfants chez le médecin aussi bien que moi. Ce n'est pas le cas de tout le monde. J'observe aujourd'hui une évolution très différente. Je trouve que les jeunes femmes sont... Je trouve cela décourageant. J'embauche une femme, puis elle vient et a peur de dire qu'elle est enceinte. Et je me dis que ce n'est pas pour cela que nous nous sommes battues. Nous avions de très mauvaises allocations de maternité. J'ai perdu un emploi parce que ma famille m'a dit que j'étais plus dévouée à mes enfants qu'à mon travail. De quoi parlez-vous ? Mes factures sont excellentes. Tout cela... vous savez, c'est tout simplement faux. Donc, vous savez, je pense que c'est... et ma carrière n'en a pas souffert. Mais oui, j'ai l'impression qu'il y a plus de choses maintenant. J'ai l'impression qu'il y a un retour en arrière et que les gens ne se battent plus autant pour avoir une bonne carrière et une bonne famille. Rebecca : Oui. Avez-vous l'espoir que le pendule revienne vers les causes pour lesquelles vous vous êtes tant investis ? BK : Eh bien, je pense qu'il reviendra lorsque les femmes se rendront compte qu'elles sont à nouveau soumises. Rebecca : Parce que les choses se passent plus calmement qu'auparavant. BK : Et avec une participation plus volontaire. Vous savez, c'est bien de dire, vous savez, mon but dans la vie est de construire une belle maison, d'élever des enfants et d'avoir tout le temps de conduire les enfants à un match de football ou autre. C'est tout autre chose que de se retrouver seul et sans les moyens de subvenir à ses besoins et à ceux de ses enfants. Et quand vos enfants quittent la maison, cela signifie-t-il que vous êtes, vous savez, ce que vous... si c'est votre seul objectif. Oui, c'est vrai. J'ai l'impression que c'est très important. Je sais qu'il a été important pour moi d'apporter une contribution, et le travail que je fais, je peux en voir l'impact sur les Canadiens. Je peux en voir l'impact sur le fonctionnement du tribunal. Et mes enfants sont formidables. Rebecca : Cela a donc fonctionné. BK : Cela a donc fonctionné ! Mais c'est beaucoup de travail. C'est vraiment difficile et il faut être conscient et intentionnel tout le temps, et il faut réfléchir. Et vous savez, il y a eu des moments où, lorsque les garçons étaient petits, j'allais me coucher et je me sentais mal à l'estomac. J'étais tellement fatiguée. Et, euh. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression que votre partenaire a ressenti la même chose ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Rebecca : Oui, d'accord. C'était donc aussi équilibré que possible, mais il y avait encore... BK : Oui. Rebecca : Il y a encore des rôles. Il y avait encore des rôles. Mais cela existe probablement, et je sais que cela existe encore aujourd'hui. BK : Oui. Rebecca : Euh, y avait-il, et si oui, quel aspect de la société canadienne considérait-on comme le plus détraqué et qui avait besoin d'être corrigé ? BK : Eh bien, je pense que c'était les droits des femmes et, et mon moi de 20 ans est surpris d'entendre mon moi de 67 ans dire cela. Mais, vous savez, en y repensant, le harcèlement sexuel que nous avons supporté, vous savez, de la part de professeurs de l'université d'Ottawa. Le harcèlement sexuel que nous subissions de la part des professeurs que j'ai eus, c'était effrayant et dégoûtant. Et je pense que, vous savez, j'espère que c'est mieux. Rebecca : Oui, je l'espère. Je l'espère. Je l'espère. Avez-vous l'impression que lorsque vous regardez les hommes autour de vous, ils voient les mêmes choses que vous en tant que femme ? BK : Oh, probablement pas. Oui, mais, vous savez, j'avais de bons amis qui étaient des hommes et, vous savez, nous... mais c'était instructif... Mais l'un des... et cela varie des années soixante-dix, mais de nombreux produits. Lorsque je pratiquais le droit et que je représentais des clients, les hommes qui étaient, et c'étaient tous des hommes, des ouvriers du bâtiment et l'entreprise pour laquelle ils travaillaient avait fait faillite. Il existe donc ce que l'on appelle les prêts à la construction, et il s'agit d'un système qui permet de s'assurer que les gens sont payés. Les premiers à être payés sont donc les ouvriers. Ensuite, vous savez, c'est entre les banques et les différents prêteurs et les gens. Il s'agissait donc d'un projet de construction. Dans le cadre de ce règlement, on se retrouve devant un juge, avec tous les avocats et les clients, et il s'agit de grandes tables, d'un processus formel et de la répartition des actifs. J'étais enceinte de mon deuxième enfant et en regardant autour de moi, je me suis dit que j'étais la seule femme ici, à cette époque, et je me suis dit : "Vous". Puis je me suis dit : "Wow ! Et mes clients sont les seuls à recevoir de l'argent. Alors je me suis dit, oui ! L'un de mes camarades de classe était présent dans la salle et nous nous sommes retrouvés par la suite, lors d'une rencontre sociale. Il m'a dit : "Oui, j'ai regardé la salle et je me suis dit qu'elle était la seule, la seule femme dans cette salle. Je me demande si elle se sent mal à l'aise. Et j'ai répondu que j'avais remarqué que j'étais la seule femme. J'espère que c'est mieux ainsi. Et, vous savez, je me souviens de 1990, lorsque le juge en chef Dixon a pris sa retraite et que je me suis rendue dans cette grande salle de bal au Château Laurier, où il n'y avait qu'une mer d'hommes blancs, d'âge moyen. Je me demande si je verrai une différence. Puis, lorsque le juge en chef McLaughlin a pris sa retraite en 2017, il y a eu un événement similaire dans une grande salle de bal, et la foule était beaucoup plus diversifiée. Et donc quand nous avons parlé de cela et puis vous savez que les femmes et les hommes, je pense que cela a été une grande chose pour moi. Mais nous n'avons pas du tout parlé de l'aspect racial. Mais je dirais que c'était une autre caractéristique de la diversité. Rebecca : À ce propos, quand vous avez regardé le campus, y avait-il beaucoup de diversité raciale à l'époque ? BK : Dans une certaine mesure, mais je dirais qu'il y avait surtout beaucoup d'étudiants originaires d'Afrique, des pays francophones Rebecca : Oh, d'accord, c'est vrai. Cela me paraît logique. D'accord. Avez-vous vu des discriminations à leur encontre ou est-ce que vous faisiez tellement votre truc que ça ne faisait pas vraiment partie de ce que vous avez vu. BK : Ce n'est probablement pas ce dont j'ai été témoin, et je pense que mes interactions se sont surtout produites lors de soirées dansantes. Parce que j'aime danser. Rebecca : Est-ce que vos danses... c'est ma propre curiosité. Est-ce qu'il y avait des mouvements de danse ? BK : Oui, vous savez, dans les années 1970, il y avait toute une musique appelée disco. Rebecca : Oui. BK : Et il y avait des danses, le hustle, le bump. Il y avait toutes sortes de... Oui. Rebecca : Vous feriez donc de l'agitation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Oh, c'est incroyable. BK : Je sais. Et c'était génial. Et c'est comme si, si vous voulez revenir à mon école et que vous commenciez dans les années soixante en cours de gym, nous faisions - apprenions des danses et, à Winnipeg, je me souviens que nous devions apprendre la polka et c'était essentiel pour aller à des soirées sociales. Il fallait savoir danser la polka. C'était donc intégré dans les programmes scolaires. Mais dans toutes les écoles que j'ai fréquentées, vous savez, une fois que vous êtes arrivé à la sixième ou à la septième année, je suppose, nous avions le vendredi, une fois par mois, peut-être plus souvent, des bals de chaussettes après l'école, et vous enleviez vos chaussures et vous dansiez, des bals de chaussettes, et ensuite, lorsque vous arriviez au lycée, il y avait des bals réguliers. Et je me souviens que maman, euh, une fois, ma bonne amie est venue et maman nous a cousu dans nos robes pour que nos bretelles de soutien-gorge ne se voient pas. Rebecca : Wow. BK : Ou peut-être avait-elle d'autres raisons de nous coudre dans nos robes, mais... Rebecca : Excellente remarque ! Oh, mon Dieu. C'est incroyable d'entendre ça, parce que les danses que j'ai connues, ce sont surtout des gens qui se tiennent debout dans le gymnase et qui parlent entre eux. Et il n'y a pas... il n'y a pas de danse. BK : Eh bien, et nous avions l'habitude, comme à l'école secondaire de Winnipeg, ils - j'y suis allé à cause de la carrière de mon père, j'ai vécu un peu partout, mais c'était vraiment régimenté. Si vous n'aviez pas de partenaire de danse, ça n'avait pas d'importance. On se mettait en rang pour danser en face de quelqu'un. Si vous vous teniez contre le mur, nous les appelions les "wallflowers", c'était parce que vous le vouliez. Mais il n'y avait aucune raison de ne pas danser. Et c'était juste, quand c'était les danses lentes. Et puis, bien sûr, il fallait se mettre en couple avec quelqu'un. Mais cela pouvait être un peu plus gênant si vous ne trouviez personne, mais non, c'était vraiment le cas. Et j'ai remarqué que mes fils n'étaient jamais, [nom du fils] était un peu plus impliqué dans la culture étudiante et au lycée, mais les bals étaient plutôt rares. Et c'était vraiment amusant parce que c'était juste un peu inoffensif et innocent et, vous savez, Ouais. Mais moi et mes amis, on est toujours dans un groupe d'amis où on libère un espace, on met de la musique et on danse. Rebecca : Oh, mon Dieu. Vous écoutez de la musique en ce moment ou ? BK : Plus d'Abba. Et... Rebecca : Oui ! Et qui, qui étaient les qui étaient les qui étaient les de l'époque pour vous ? BK : Les groupes que j'aimais. J'aimais les Who, les Rolling Stones, les Beatles, ABBA était toujours très divertissant. Um, Doobie Brothers. Je ne sais pas. Il y en a beaucoup. Rebecca : Excellent. BK : Oui. Les Bee Gees étaient géniaux. Oh, alors vous avez commencé à danser. Rebecca : Je sais ! Je sais. BK : Et comment allez-vous faire ? Rebecca : Comment vais-je faire ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : Je vais trouver une solution. BK : D'accord. Rebecca : Trouve une solution. J'organiserai un saut de chaussettes. Je suis triste de quitter cette conversation, mais je dois revenir à la politique. Lorsque vous étiez à l'université et que vous regardiez le gouvernement, aviez-vous l'impression qu'il était juste et qu'il répondait aux besoins des citoyens ? Avez-vous eu l'impression d'être entendu, même si des mesures n'ont pas nécessairement été prises ? BK : Honnêtement, je ne pense pas y avoir jamais réfléchi. Rebecca : Pas de problème. BK : Je veux dire qu'il y a eu de grandes négociations constitutionnelles qui ont abouti à la loi constitutionnelle de 1982. Donc, vous savez, c'est certain. C'est vrai. Rebecca : D'accord. J'aimerais aborder un autre sujet que nous avons un peu abordé. Les historiens de la culture ont affirmé que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et la diffusion de l'idéologie de l'amour libre ont modifié les relations entre les sexes et les pratiques de drague dans les années soixante-dix. Êtes-vous d'accord avec cette affirmation ? BK : Oui. Rebecca : D'accord. Pouvez-vous nous en dire un peu plus sur ce que cela signifie ? BK : Eh bien, si vous n'aviez pas à vous soucier d'être enceinte, c'était un effet libérateur. Et l'avortement, bien que, je veux dire, je pense que cela aurait pu être plus tard, comme je ne pense pas que l'accès à l'avortement était particulièrement répandu. En y repensant aujourd'hui, je pense que les hommes l'ont pris - nous parlons des relations hommes-femmes. Et je sais qu'il existe de nombreuses formes différentes, mais nous parlons uniquement de la relation hétérosexuelle normative. Je pense que cela a conduit les femmes à être moins bien traitées. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Oui, je pense qu'au début, c'était un peu plus égalitaire. Et j'observe maintenant que c'est comme si c'était le cas. Rebecca : Pourquoi pensez-vous que c'est le cas ? BK : Je ne sais pas. Pourquoi les femmes se laissent-elles abuser ? Rebecca : C'est vrai. C'est un élément important. BK : Je pense que c'est le cas. Rebecca : Je suis d'accord. Je suis d'accord. Hum... BK : Parce que c'est difficile. Rebecca : Oui, c'est difficile d'être celui qui doit toujours rester puissant. BK : Oui. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Vous ne pouvez pas vous détendre dans votre être parce que vous devez être forte. Avez-vous ressenti cela au cours de votre carrière ou bien avez-vous toujours eu la volonté d'être forte et d'assumer votre pouvoir ? BK : Oh, non, je ne dirais pas que cela a toujours été facile pour moi. Mais la confiance vient avec l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : Voilà. C'est vrai. BK : J'en ai beaucoup maintenant. Les deux, l'expérience et l'âge. Oui, l'expérience et l'âge. Rebecca : J'aimerais aborder un sujet que vous avez un peu abordé, mais si vous ne voulez pas répondre ou si cela vous met mal à l'aise, nous sauterons la section. Mais il s'agit de parler un peu plus de la sexualité et du harcèlement. Si vous êtes à l'aise, je vous poserai quelques questions à ce sujet. BK : Bien sûr. Rebecca : Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont des politiques, des règles et des règlements sur le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure avez-vous trouvé que l'université surveillait les événements sociaux, les soirées mixtes ou les expériences sur le campus, en particulier pour les femmes ? BK : Oh, euh, complètement inexistant. Si je me souviens bien. Rebecca : Est-ce que... est-ce que vous étiez fâchée qu'il n'y ait pas plus de surveillance ? BK : J'ai eu un incident où un professeur, euh, a failli me violer et je n'avais nulle part où aller. Et j'en suis furieuse. À l'époque, tout ce que nous pouvions faire, c'était de dire à mes amies ce qui s'était passé, et, vous savez, j'avais - le seul recours que j'avais, c'était, eh bien, si je devais le rencontrer, j'emmenais une amie et nous le regardions fixement, et c'était tout. Mais j'espère que maintenant... Rebecca : D'après mon expérience, c'est différent, oui. BK : Vous pourriez dire, d'accord... Rebecca : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. BK : Il s'est passé quelque chose ici. Et vous savez. Rebecca : Alors, est-ce que c'est quelque chose auquel vous pensez encore ? BK : Eh bien, c'est évident, oui, parce que j'en parle. Mais c'est le cas. Et c'est l'une des raisons pour lesquelles j'ai voulu en parler, et même faire cette interview, pour me dire que c'est peut-être quelque chose qui a été réduit au silence à l'époque et que... Rebecca : Il n'est pas nécessaire que ce soit maintenant. BK : Oui, oui. Rebecca : Quand vous... dans votre... je ne sais pas, professionnellement. Est-ce que vous voyez beaucoup de ces expériences se produire maintenant ou est-ce que ce n'est pas du tout quelque chose qui vous vient à l'esprit ? BK : Eh bien, dans ma position, oui. Je veux dire que c'était très... Je suis cadre supérieur ici et le harcèlement sexuel est nettement moins fréquent qu'avant. Et je pense que nous avons mis en place de meilleurs systèmes pour traiter tout ce qui - les comportements qui posent problème. Et ce n'est pas une grande partie de ce qui se passe. C'est pourquoi. Rebecca : D'accord. Notre génération est très intéressée par le mouvement de l'amour libre. Hum, quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage à l'Université d'Ottawa dans les années soixante-dix ? BK : Eh bien, beaucoup de gens le faisaient, alors oui. Rebecca : C'était normal. C'était juste ce qui se passait et est-ce que c'était juste une sorte de hasard ? Y avait-il un encouragement à la rébellion ou ? BK : Je ne pense pas que les gens aient eu besoin de beaucoup d'encouragement. Rebecca : C'était donc la liberté. Avez-vous l'impression que c'était différent de la génération de vos parents ? BK : Probablement. Mais je pense que cela revient au contrôle des naissances parce que je sais que j'en ai parlé à ma mère et qu'elle m'a simplement dit : "Oh, tu sais, chaque mois, tout le monde s'inquiète. Et si vous tombiez enceinte, vous devriez vous marier, vous savez, comme, ouais, pour avoir un bébé hors mariage, ce qui est comme, eh bien, la chose la plus horrible et... Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. Et c'est une conversation que vous avez eue avec votre mère. C'était donc plutôt un sujet dont vous étiez libre de parler ? BK : J'étais libre de parler de tout à mes parents, mais nous n'aurions jamais eu l'idée de leur parler de... Oui. C'était différent. Je parle à mes enfants de plus de choses et je leur dis : "Pourquoi me dites-vous cela ? Je ne veux pas savoir. Rebecca : Avez-vous l'impression d'avoir déjà fait cela avec vos parents ? BK : Vous leur avez dit des choses qu'ils ne voulaient pas savoir ? Non, parce qu'ils le garderaient pour moi ! Rebecca : C'est vrai. Et vous n'avez pas l'impression que c'est le cas aujourd'hui. BK : Non. Oui. Pourquoi me demandes-tu de t'aider à réviser cette dissertation ? J'ai déjà été à l'école. Rebecca et BK : Je n'ai pas besoin de le refaire. Rebecca : C'est tout à fait vrai. C'est ce que je dis à ma sœur quand elle veut que je l'aide. Quoi qu'il en soit, euh, oui. Je suppose que nous en avons un peu parlé, mais avez-vous l'impression que la génération de vos parents s'est inquiétée de vos relations prémaritales ou qu'ils n'ont pas su que cela se produisait ? BK : Ou ils n'étaient pas aussi informés. Non, non, je pense que oui. Non, je ne sais pas. Rebecca : D'accord. BK : Je ne pense pas que ce soit un problème. Rebecca : Cela répond à toutes les questions que je me pose. BK : Génial. Rebecca : Avez-vous quelque chose d'autre à mentionner pendant que vous avez le micro ? BK : Pendant que j'ai le micro, vous savez, c'était deux expériences très différentes sur le campus et dans les années soixante-dix et deux programmes différents. Et, euh, mais je pense toujours que ce premier réflexe que j'ai eu d'aller à l'Université d'Ottawa était le bon. Oui, c'est vrai. Rebecca : Génial. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K, B (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial from University of Ottawa Alumna about campus life and beyond in the 1970s, with a heavy focus on the bilingual and female experience. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MPEG Audio File, 56 minutes, 12 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Abortion Academics Arts Bilingualism Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Law School Marriage Popular Music Sexual Violence Sports Student Life The Pill Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lafrance, Elizabeth Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Turpin, Nicole Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (Via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm Elizabeth Lafrance interviewing. Nicole Turpin, about the Life on campus project in the 70s. 0:0:12.980 --> 0:0:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:0:17.750 --> 0:0:20.560
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so one of the main themes that we're trying to like,
Um, delve into is the impact of popular culture, and so the main question for this part that we're trying to like get into is cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones are related. Together. 0:0:52.680 --> 0:1:3.950
Elizabeth Lafrance
They were less at electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did you? What did you do with students do for fun and then 1970s? 0:1:5.580 --> 0:1:8.790
Nicole
I guess the biggest piece was we spent time together. 0:1:10.230 --> 0:1:14.940
Nicole
There was definitely a separation between the Francophones and the Anglophones. 0:1:16.360 --> 0:1:17.300
Nicole
In first year. 0:1:18.60 --> 0:1:23.300
Nicole
It was more because there was a lot of francophones that were coming from outside of Ottawa. 0:1:24.50 --> 0:1:26.590
Nicole
And did not speak a lot of English. 0:1:27.940 --> 0:1:44.670
Nicole
So there really was a big separation. I was actually in the middle because I came from Ottawa. I was completely bilingual and in sports because I had a fixed and kinesiology courses. 0:1:45.330 --> 0:2:1.190
Nicole
All sports, all the competitive sports, was mixed together. So there was a social circle that was created that didn't exist on campus part from sports. That's the sports part. 0:2:2.390 --> 0:2:2.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:2:2.370 --> 0:2:8.690
Nicole
So for there, that's what. That's where we hung around more and more with both Anglophone and Francophone. 0:2:11.910 --> 0:2:14.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
So did you not have a problem like? 0:2:14.750 --> 0:2:21.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Between each, like anglophone or francophone, where you completely in the middle? Or did you find yourself going to like one side? 0:2:22.140 --> 0:2:26.410
Nicole
Being a Franco Ontarian is very different than a quebecker. 0:2:27.360 --> 0:2:32.640
Nicole
And because I've lived all my life in a bilingual environment, most of my life. 0:2:52.680 --> 0:2:53.280
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:2:33.400 --> 0:3:3.690
Nicole
I was used to it and all of my friends that went to university with me from Ottawa, we would switch back and forth in French and English without even thinking about it. As soon as there was an anglophone in the group, we would switch all the English for that person because the anglophone never even had thought of thinking or talking in French. But the francophones we were all used to it. So that's how we worked. 0:3:4.890 --> 0:3:5.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:6.780 --> 0:3:12.340
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, what were the most popular hangout spots on and off of campus? 0:3:13.310 --> 0:3:13.690
Nicole
Again. 0:3:13.770 --> 0:3:15.420
Nicole
The first year was pretty quiet. 0:3:16.240 --> 0:3:39.300
Nicole
Residence was always a popular place and there was a room, a big room, a meeting room, and there was, I can't remember if there was alcohol on campus or not. I have no memory of that. But it was a big there. there was a lot of music and a lot of dancing, and there was always. You always started there as a group. 0:3:42.740 --> 0:3:43.360
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:40.580 --> 0:3:48.780
Nicole
But we were underage at that time, so it there was a lot less alcohol in those first years. 0:3:50.80 --> 0:4:4.370
Nicole
It's yet to be 21, so it was just kind of like in and out. And yes, there was alcohol everywhere, but it wasn't, you know, in a lot of places. We just aren't allowed to go. We couldn't get in. We looked too young. So that's thing. 0:4:6.720 --> 0:4:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
And when you like, we're graduating. Was it more like focused on alcohol? Like, whenever you'd hang out? 0:4:14.890 --> 0:4:16.110
Nicole
It depended on the group. 0:4:17.200 --> 0:4:22.950
Nicole
We, I hung around very much with the Sports Group, with the athletes. 0:4:23.650 --> 0:4:43.960
Nicole
So most people was mostly alcohol, but I, I knew some people who were completely into drugs as whatever you wanted was there on campus and some some people got really deep into it and even some of my friends that I knew and kind of stayed away from that. 0:4:45.20 --> 0:4:48.330
Nicole
But there was anything you wanted on campus. 0:4:49.360 --> 0:4:49.950
Nicole
Really was. 0:4:52.320 --> 0:4:56.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:4:57.180 --> 0:5:4.780
Nicole
Oh my God. All the time dancing really was something everybody did. Like you went somewhere and you dance. 0:5:14.120 --> 0:5:14.530
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:5:5.410 --> 0:5:26.930
Nicole
For hours and hours and hours. And you, you. You did it like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. You know you did it here every night and 1st year was quieter again. And I lived at home for the first year. So I, you know, of course, my parents were still controlling a little bit more. And I lived in Aylmer in that point. So it was far. 0:5:27.640 --> 0:5:49.960
Nicole
And so that was made a difference in first year. It was a lot quieter after that. I moved into an apartment in Sandy Hill. So that changed everything. I was living on my own with a couple of girlfriends, and life was a lot busier socially. There was always a party going on any night. There was always something for you. 0:5:51.180 --> 0:5:59.30
Nicole
On campus, around campus, the bars around the campus down in-in-the in the market, were always open. 0:6:0.10 --> 0:6:4.790
Nicole
And so yeah, depending on what you need to do that night, there was always something. 0:6:7.980 --> 0:6:20.230
Elizabeth Lafrance
UOttawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s. Did the Francophones and anglophones enrol in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? 0:6:20.620 --> 0:6:22.580
Nicole
OK, so in those days. 0:6:23.420 --> 0:6:29.280
Nicole
Thou shall not cross that line. The courses were only in French and only in English. 0:6:30.10 --> 0:6:32.370
Nicole
I was actually the first student. 0:6:33.750 --> 0:6:48.260
Nicole
That thought that and I ended up sitting in the Dean's office and arguing the point. Why should I not be allowed to go into the French course? Or the English course, depending on which teacher or what time? 0:6:49.650 --> 0:6:54.360
Nicole
Work better for me. But you had to be bilingual to do that. 0:6:55.330 --> 0:7:0.350
Nicole
And I've got they let me do it. And it was not. 0:7:1.110 --> 0:7:7.260
Nicole
It was extremely rare where the courses were together at all. It really was two schools. 0:7:7.920 --> 0:7:10.280
Nicole
On one French side and one English side. 0:7:10.880 --> 0:7:18.730
Nicole
We did, however, socialize a lot together. As we got older and got to know each other. 0:7:20.380 --> 0:7:30.860
Nicole
But to start, it was very much the English type and very much the French type to the point when not where you started or when I was there, we had to do a language test. 0:7:32.310 --> 0:7:32.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:7:32.190 --> 0:7:33.470
Nicole
Or second language test. 0:7:34.200 --> 0:7:39.470
Nicole
And most people, the second language was much lower. 0:7:40.80 --> 0:7:45.740
Nicole
So you would take whatever level, but you were mandated to take a second language course. 0:7:47.190 --> 0:7:53.400
Nicole
I was a keener and being who I was and how I was, I came from a French private school. We were really very, very bilingual. I ended up taking the French sides French and the English sides English of Anthology of English verse, which was horrible. But that's how bilingual I was. 0:8:12.590 --> 0:8:12.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:12.430 --> 0:8:19.880
Nicole
But there was a lot of francophones who could, and anglophones who did not speak a word of the other language or barely. 0:8:21.150 --> 0:8:21.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:22.460 --> 0:8:27.420
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um did Anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:8:27.470 --> 0:8:29.710
Nicole
Ohhhhh the French girls are popular. 0:8:31.630 --> 0:8:39.830
Nicole
There's no question about that. And very quickly everybody started dating and we mixed very quickly. 0:8:41.120 --> 0:9:1.410
Nicole
We were all very close to both the groups, especially in in the groupings, because again, as I said, the sports were worked integrated. So we-we-we got to know each other a lot. It was not like that for a lot of other places. But in our department it really was mixed. 0:9:4.760 --> 0:9:7.750
Elizabeth Lafrance
So how did, like, you being a part of sport change your experince? 0:9:8.850 --> 0:9:15.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
Taking sports, like, change how you ,like, experienced university. 0:9:16.230 --> 0:9:19.480
Nicole
The sports how did it change? Where am I? 0:9:20.980 --> 0:9:21.740
Nicole
Uh. 0:9:21.350 --> 0:9:23.300
Elizabeth Lafrance
No, that was like that's all the script but. 0:9:23.230 --> 0:9:26.600
Nicole
Oh, it's not the- OK, how did I integrate? 0:9:27.580 --> 0:9:35.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
Or like how did you been a part of like sports clubs instead of change how, like your social life like was? 0:9:36.130 --> 0:9:39.330
Nicole
It was very different because I was so fluent. 0:9:40.910 --> 0:9:48.630
Nicole
So whatever sport I wanted to go into, it gravitated different sports gravitated different culture like different groupings, whether it was francophones for certain sports, like volleyball, it was francophone. 0:9:58.130 --> 0:10:0.510
Nicole
And basketball was anglophone. 0:10:1.190 --> 0:10:24.490
Nicole
That was their sports. And so again, I got to do both, but most of the others didn't. But because we were started getting to know each other so much in those sports, and there were others that everybody joined in and you would hear both languages running at the same time. And on the- in the same sentence. 0:10:25.680 --> 0:10:31.210
Nicole
As people got more and more integrated into each other, wanting to be social with each other. 0:10:32.140 --> 0:10:37.190
Nicole
And so that-that created a much more cultural group. 0:10:39.90 --> 0:10:39.820
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:10:41.260 --> 0:10:53.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
We used the term party culture to refer to the social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the part the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? 0:10:54.740 --> 0:10:56.110
Nicole
I have. It was wild. 0:10:57.170 --> 0:10:59.790
Nicole
It was. You have to realize that. 0:11:0.510 --> 0:11:17.380
Nicole
We had been wild. I was coming from private boarding school girls, private school for five years. No, four years. Sorry, that was crazy all of a sudden, it- and you were away from home. Most of half the groupings were in residence. 0:11:18.70 --> 0:11:18.600
Nicole
Um. 0:11:19.260 --> 0:11:19.590
Nicole
Yeah. 0:11:20.460 --> 0:11:22.810
Nicole
There was a a lot of- 0:11:23.710 --> 0:11:28.660
Nicole
Every night girls and boys, there were some heavy partying in those days. 0:11:30.170 --> 0:11:42.180
Nicole
And depending on how important your-your class and your report card or your marks was it, it changed. I mean there was this big crazy time and then everybody kind of. 0:11:42.890 --> 0:11:47.620
Nicole
Who bought a bit realized. Oh, wait a SEC. We actually have to go to classes and we actually have to. 0:11:48.230 --> 0:11:55.700
Nicole
Graduate. So there was this ebb and flow, but it was it really was, wild. Anything, everything. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:2.520
Nicole
And at the same time, it was the first generation of women who we went on the pill. 0:12:3.870 --> 0:12:4.300
Nicole
That. 0:12:4.50 --> 0:12:4.400
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:12:9.200 --> 0:12:10.10
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:12:12.230 --> 0:12:14.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did the student body think about the? 0:12:15.870 --> 0:12:16.190
Nicole
Review. 0:12:15.780 --> 0:12:16.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Vietnam War. 0:12:17.90 --> 0:12:17.530
Nicole
Nothing. 0:12:18.350 --> 0:12:19.470
Nicole
It didn't exist. 0:12:20.290 --> 0:12:30.240
Nicole
You know what did it? Did it? It was barely mentioned. No interest was what was, though hugely was the FLQ and what that is. 0:12:32.850 --> 0:12:33.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:12:31.730 --> 0:12:33.780
Nicole
So that tends to back. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:35.910
Nicole
When we went into. 0:12:38.300 --> 0:12:45.560
Nicole
The FLQ took some English people and ended up they wanted to separate the-the-the province. 0:12:46.730 --> 0:12:53.500
Nicole
It was. It was violent. There's someone that was killed. You'll have to research that part. The FLQ. 0:12:54.170 --> 0:12:57.780
Nicole
That we talked about all the time because. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:4.30
Nicole
In grade12 and 13, when it happened, that's when I was in it. 0:13:4.690 --> 0:13:5.580
Nicole
We had. 0:13:6.330 --> 0:13:28.670
Nicole
Um students in our school that their parents were cabinet ministers and representatives, and we actually had RCMP on campus in our schools for weeks and months so that no one would be kidnapped or that there was no Violence. 0:13:29.370 --> 0:13:34.80
Nicole
But we lived through the FLQ, but Vietnam nothing. Not a word. 0:13:34.970 --> 0:13:38.0
Nicole
I have no memory of everybody talking about that part. 0:13:39.260 --> 0:13:40.190
Nicole
It was more the FLQ. 0:13:39.780 --> 0:13:40.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
So. 0:13:49.660 --> 0:13:52.820
Nicole
It it it warranted a lot of discussions. 0:13:53.510 --> 0:14:9.30
Nicole
It talked about the French identity, Canadian identity, how to integrate French and English. So we we had a lot of discussions with the Francophones and Anglophones talking about identity. 0:14:9.810 --> 0:14:11.740
Nicole
That we did a lot of discussions about. 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:16.390
Nicole
Um, but not nothing about the Vietnam War. 0:14:17.100 --> 0:14:20.60
Nicole
Not with that English French dynamic. 0:14:21.80 --> 0:14:21.620
Elizabeth Lafrance Hmm. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:36.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Rock'n'roll artists in that 1960s had promoted various forms of protests. Did your, did your parents think of rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:38.430 --> 0:14:41.120
Nicole
I was the eldest of seven kids. 0:14:41.980 --> 0:14:47.550
Nicole
And and so I was the first one that walked out the door kind of thing and started. 0:14:49.380 --> 0:14:50.640
Nicole
But they were very. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.850
Nicole
Confident about me as a person and I wasn't into drugs. 0:14:57.550 --> 0:14:58.660
Nicole
So they kind of. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:9.270
Nicole
I mean, they'd comment about it. I can remember my boyfriend at the time. His parents were appalled because he had started letting his hair grow, and that was like. 0:15:10.60 --> 0:15:14.30
Nicole
A huge challenge to parents was the boys having long hair. 0:15:15.0 --> 0:15:25.940
Nicole
When you think about it now it's hilarious. But in those days the boys hair was long and getting longer. That was absolutely the rock influence. 0:15:26.930 --> 0:15:32.400
Nicole
Not the big drug thing because like we skirted it, we didn't really get into it. 0:15:33.670 --> 0:15:39.410
Nicole
Our parents weren't as worried, but I know other parents were. They were definitely worried about it. 0:15:41.830 --> 0:15:44.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
So would you say that your parents were like, strict? 0:15:45.630 --> 0:15:45.920
Nicole
I'm. 0:15:50.890 --> 0:15:51.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:15:47.610 --> 0:15:52.40
Nicole
You have to remember when we're talking about, you know, expectations for children. 0:15:53.80 --> 0:16:4.880
Nicole
Pretty clear, but then I moved out so I only stayed a year with my parents and then I-I was gone after that they they had no say over me, really. I mean, I didn't. 0:16:6.160 --> 0:16:11.220
Nicole
I didn't change my behavior. I still saw them regularly. I still, you know, went over and. 0:16:12.380 --> 0:16:19.880
Nicole
Got fed as often as I could because I lived in the same city. I mean, I lived close. My parents were in in Alymer at that point, so. 0:16:20.570 --> 0:16:22.270
Nicole
It it wasn't as obvious. 0:16:27.660 --> 0:16:27.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:16:22.950 --> 0:16:38.400
Nicole
What did i do that they didn't have a clue what I was doing, really, you know? But they had my younger brother and sisters, they were already into it too. So they were concerned. But I think they trusted us to make good choices at the time. 0:16:41.150 --> 0:16:53.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, some youth culture voices in the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent where recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.190
Nicole
Anything you wanted, you. 0:16:56.530 --> 0:17:9.370
Nicole
I know that I didn't. My sister got into heavy like, i’ll let you know, acid and everything she was into absolutely everything. And she could get it anyway she wanted. 0:17:10.250 --> 0:17:11.830
Nicole
It really was there. 0:17:12.810 --> 0:17:21.380
Nicole
But again, I didn't so, but I knew it was. And me and my husband always talked about. He was stoned during his university. He has no memory of. 0:17:22.130 --> 0:17:29.90
Nicole
Most of the University of the social, so it depended on what you were doing at the time. But yes, it was there. Absolutely. 0:17:34.460 --> 0:17:36.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
During the 1970s. 0:17:36.980 --> 0:17:51.780
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, and you don't have to answer this question, but during 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:17:52.260 --> 0:17:56.360
Nicole
I knew they were, but because I wasn't in it, I don't know. 0:17:58.340 --> 0:17:59.360
Nicole
I mean, I heard about it. 0:18:0.0 --> 0:18:5.330
Nicole
People talk about it, but I didn't do any of it, so I was afraid of drugs actually most. 0:18:5.990 --> 0:18:13.170
Nicole
Really was? I just didn't trust people. Just little Baggies walking around saying here, you know, I just didn't trust it. 0:18:14.130 --> 0:18:14.470
Nicole
So. 0:18:15.540 --> 0:18:18.370
Elizabeth Lafrance
But you were like around that kind of like culture. 0:18:18.150 --> 0:18:24.210
Nicole
Yes, sometimes I was, yeah. Depending on the party, there was always somebody that had a bad a baggie of something. 0:18:25.820 --> 0:18:27.0
Nicole
And you could always get it. 0:18:27.670 --> 0:18:28.180
Nicole
But. 0:18:29.270 --> 0:18:30.880
Nicole
Our group was pretty. 0:18:31.890 --> 0:18:34.530
Nicole
Quiet compared for the for drugs anyway. 0:18:35.950 --> 0:18:43.490
Nicole
So we just kind of stayed away from it and there was groups that that's all they did, they were always stoned in class and out of class. 0:18:44.260 --> 0:18:45.120
Nicole
They they were. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:19:1.200
Nicole
Fine, because I did take quite a lot of our classes outside of the Phys Ed department. Right? You still have sociology. You still had language. You still have other classes where we were mixed with other departments, and there was always somebody that was so gone. 0:19:1.830 --> 0:19:2.530
Nicole
Sat there and. 0:19:4.940 --> 0:19:5.170
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:19:4.350 --> 0:19:5.750
Nicole
Don't know why they were there, really. 0:19:11.360 --> 0:19:11.530
Nicole
Yeah. 0:19:9.190 --> 0:19:13.140
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is like the second section, the female experience. 0:19:14.630 --> 0:19:14.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Uh. 0:19:14.10 --> 0:19:16.960
Nicole
You don't have to read the whole question if you don't want to. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.500
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'll probably do it for like the transcript. 0:19:20.530 --> 0:19:22.0
Nicole
OK, it helps. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.730
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um cultural historians have written a lot about. 0:19:27.470 --> 0:19:44.800
Elizabeth Lafrance
What they call second wave feminism guy as per of the culture, cultural movement, women during the early 1970s sought to breakdown gender barriers. What does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:49.430 --> 0:19:54.920
Nicole
The biggest change in our world, and it was massive really. 0:19:56.390 --> 0:20:0.640
Nicole
All of a sudden, all you need to do was take the pill, you didn't get Pregnant. 0:20:1.480 --> 0:20:7.10
Nicole
And that completely changed their lives as a group of women and. 0:20:7.920 --> 0:20:9.890
Nicole
Most of my friends, we were all in the pit. 0:20:11.780 --> 0:20:16.350
Nicole
And in those days, those pills could have worked on a horse. 0:20:17.260 --> 0:20:22.90
Nicole
And not getting pregnant. It was so, so strong it was. 0:20:23.270 --> 0:20:31.810
Nicole
Crazy the level of of hormones that they gave us in those initial wave of pills, but we took them. 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:34.410
Nicole
And so. 0:20:35.260 --> 0:20:42.910
Nicole
We didn't hear as much about, you know, the horrible life of being pregnant because. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.90
Nicole
Pretty well. Everybody was on the pill that wanted to. 0:20:48.290 --> 0:20:49.250
Nicole
And you could get it. 0:20:50.330 --> 0:20:59.370
Nicole
On or off campus somewhere close, so all the people in residence are the women in residence would go and get, you know, get on the pill. 0:21:2.180 --> 0:21:10.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
In your own words, did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s, or what did? Sorry. 0:21:10.580 --> 0:21:19.840
Nicole
Well, apart from the pill, equal rights all of a sudden, yes, we did a lot of talking as women about how. 0:21:22.490 --> 0:21:30.530
Nicole
Our parents were our our mothers were being encased in this expectation and that we didn't wanna be the same. 0:21:31.530 --> 0:21:38.10
Nicole
We wanted to have more choices. We wanted more things and we realized very quickly that. 0:21:39.870 --> 0:21:49.410
Nicole
It was the man that was running this world and and we weren’t. We were. There was a lot of discussion. There was some really good discussions about. 0:21:50.40 --> 0:22:19.990
Nicole
Representation about government being only men, you know, corporations being led by men we were. We were definitely incensed about that. And it that messaging was definitely coming from the states. It we were hearing it. We were seeing it, there was campus groupings of women that and I remember sitting a couple of them I went, you know, once in a while I'd sit in on on some of those groups you. Cassie was really important that we we understand. 0:22:20.70 --> 0:22:21.750
Nicole
Why and how to change that? 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:36.760
Nicole
But University had the social culture and the and the intellectual culture that we were more even equal because you could talk and you could challenge it there. 0:22:37.670 --> 0:22:40.570
Nicole
But it was very different when we went out into the real world. 0:22:42.170 --> 0:22:46.80
Nicole
That environment that university gave, gave us the opportunity. 0:22:46.730 --> 0:22:47.770
Nicole
To question ourselves. 0:22:48.550 --> 0:22:51.0
Nicole
But it's only when we got into the real world that. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.70
Nicole
We realized wait a SEC. 0:22:54.40 --> 0:22:55.530
Nicole
Still not doing it right. 0:23:4.280 --> 0:23:4.720
Nicole
Yes. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:5.190
Elizabeth Lafrance
So were you a part of like those conversations that was happening in university about, like, feminism and, like, equal rights? 0:23:6.260 --> 0:23:12.830
Nicole
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Often we. Like I said, we would join some of the groups and, and have these discussions. 0:23:13.710 --> 0:23:36.530
Nicole
Think we thought we with the universities you can create a group anytime you wanted to and you could, you know, have a meeting and use a a room. So yes, I-I did was I one to March? No, because I felt quite comfortable where I was in my world. But yes we did. I did sit in on quite a lot of the discussions at that time. 0:23:39.60 --> 0:23:39.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:23:41.130 --> 0:23:53.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to the male students? 0:23:54.510 --> 0:23:59.600
Nicole
So the most interesting thing that happened to us when we when I started. 0:24:0.420 --> 0:24:1.950
Nicole
The first year. 0:24:3.250 --> 0:24:24.580
Nicole
All our classes. OK, so we were the things that we were specializing in teaching physical education, right. It was a course that brought you teaching Phys Ed in schools. OK, so at the first my first year, all my courses in sports were separate. 0:24:25.420 --> 0:24:26.130
Nicole
From the boys. 0:24:27.50 --> 0:24:37.100
Nicole
So we learned the female courses like dance and all of the sports, even basketball. It was all the girls together. 0:24:38.330 --> 0:24:47.300
Nicole
The next year we were there, UOttawa, the Department of Phys Ed, decided that they could not keep doing this. 0:24:48.230 --> 0:25:4.230
Nicole
Because when a teachers got into the real world of teaching, they got caught or they got, they were told they had to teach a class of boys or a class of girls, and they didn't have any background in it. 0:25:4.900 --> 0:25:13.370 Nicole
So that second year and forever after that, all the teaching of sports was mixed. 0:25:14.230 --> 0:25:25.600
Nicole
So, and it was hilarious. I can still see this. One of the guys. And I knew him quite well. He was huge. He was like 280 and he was on the provincial wrestling team. 0:25:27.90 --> 0:25:35.360
Nicole
And he comes to me and says, OK, here it is. You're gonna teach me how to teach dance. And I'm gonna teach you how to how to teach wrestling. 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:43.880
Nicole
I'm nearly got killed with him because he was so huge, but that's how much we had to change all of a sudden. 0:25:44.650 --> 0:25:54.380
Nicole
How we were looking at-at all of the introduction of teaching, because we have to learn the other sports. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:26:9.330
Nicole
And that was a huge hardship, and the teachers had a hard time with you because here you come in with a group of women and go, OK, what do we do with them? Like, how am I gonna teach wrestling to girls who never in their lives wrestle? 0:26:10.210 --> 0:26:10.830
Nicole
That was. 0:26:10.780 --> 0:26:11.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:16.180
Nicole
A big piece, but absolutely shifted how we looked at everything. 0:26:17.30 --> 0:26:20.860
Nicole
And because of that my first job. 0:26:21.980 --> 0:26:28.60
Nicole
I was able to teach. I had three girls classes, but I had two boys classes. 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:32.370
Nicole
And they hired me because I had had that preparation. 0:26:33.890 --> 0:26:34.880
Nicole
But it did make a difference. 0:26:35.730 --> 0:26:36.60
Nicole
Yeah. 0:26:37.750 --> 0:26:45.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
And the 1970s were there, UOttawa programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? 0:26:46.30 --> 0:26:46.230
Nicole
Absoluteely. 0:26:46.340 --> 0:26:46.840
Nicole
Remotely. 0:26:47.540 --> 0:26:52.0
Nicole
Everywhere there were certain things that you could see that you know, the women just weren't there. 0:26:52.660 --> 0:26:55.710
Nicole
Um, there was there was a. 0:26:56.490 --> 0:27:4.870
Nicole
Pick up hockey was the one of the first ones, and again, because women didn't play hockey in those days. 0:27:6.140 --> 0:27:11.890
Nicole
And I remember going to the rink and that's just one example going to the rink and saying I’d love to play hockey. 0:27:12.660 --> 0:27:16.670
Nicole
I can skate. Why can't I learn to play hockey? I got killed. 0:27:18.140 --> 0:27:31.300
Nicole
And if we should pick up hockey, but I because the guys knew me, I they taught me how to do it. But Oh God, there was so many things where it was still the women on one side and the minimum. There's no question about it. 0:27:32.60 --> 0:27:43.900
Nicole
And the man introduced, you know, wanting to go on the on the women's side too, it was as much one side as the other, but slowly, by the end of my five years. 0:27:44.740 --> 0:27:47.350
Nicole
It it was integrated a lot more. 0:27:48.10 --> 0:27:49.820
Nicole
Space compared to when I started. 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:51.230
Nicole
Absolutely. 0:27:53.430 --> 0:27:57.640
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you yourself face challenges, like when you wanted to like? 0:27:58.430 --> 0:28:1.520
Elizabeth Lafrance
Go into a space that was not as like female dominated. 0:28:3.190 --> 0:28:4.880
Nicole
Yes, absolutely. 0:28:5.680 --> 0:28:9.230
Nicole
Um and some women were more. 0:28:10.250 --> 0:28:13.460
Nicole
Comfortable and being in that world. 0:28:14.630 --> 0:28:29.900
Nicole
And I was, um, it really depended on how you-you looked at things. Some of the women weren't comfortable at all. I was skiing instructor, downhill ski instructor, and I ran. 0:28:31.0 --> 0:28:33.730
Nicole
The Speed School Children's school. At camp fortune. 0:28:35.210 --> 0:28:48.180
Nicole
All the way through university on the weekends, I was in charge of all the kids programs and we're talking 2000 kids a weekend. It was a massive ski school and I ran that. 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:50.670
Nicole
So I was with the guys all the time. 0:28:52.30 --> 0:29:3.840
Nicole
And I was the only woman that ran these programs. The others were all male, so I was more comfortable. But I knew a lot of women who would never have stepped up. 0:29:5.130 --> 0:29:15.970
Nicole
But again, by the end of my five years there, it was more accepted. It was more natural to have a women coming into sports that. 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:17.840
Nicole
You know, wouldn't have. 0:29:18.500 --> 0:29:25.430
Nicole
Now, but even then, I- my daughter, who played boys, competitive hockey. 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:36.310
Nicole
Did have her challenges? So I could I can still see. It's not completely there. It never will be. I don't think. But we've come a long way. 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:44.790
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm going to move on to the another theme that ideology and generation on differences. 0:29:46.490 --> 0:30:6.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents, generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize or a more just or just adjust society and better world? 0:30:8.590 --> 0:30:17.580
Nicole
So there's a lot of. So we talked a lot about language and female and male. The one I think that. 0:30:18.750 --> 0:30:23.170
Nicole
Really, we started to understand more as we got into you like. 0:30:24.770 --> 0:30:29.890
Nicole
Old in more older grades of the university was more multicultural. 0:30:31.100 --> 0:30:31.850
Nicole
It was all white. 0:30:32.730 --> 0:30:35.230
Nicole
And if there were so few black. 0:30:35.890 --> 0:30:37.620
Nicole
Kids in the school. 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:50.290
Nicole
And that's the one that we all all of a sudden started questioning saying, why is it like that? Like what is it with, you know, all of a sudden there was there was these discussions about. 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:55.710
Nicole
That hadn't existed before. My world was completely white. 0:30:57.280 --> 0:31:7.10
Nicole
And all of a sudden we were starting to say, well, why aren't they here or there we-we would talk to them and and they would be starting to say. 0:31:8.210 --> 0:31:9.650
Nicole
But why is it like that? 0:31:9.990 --> 0:31:13.250
Nicole
Um, so yeah, we-we did start. 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:26.620
Nicole
Talking about why and how you know, also again still the male female challenges of being represented to everywhere. So we you were pushing the envelope. 0:31:28.220 --> 0:31:31.890
Nicole
In our days, quite a lot more than when we started. 0:31:33.510 --> 0:31:43.110
Nicole
There was a lot more of why not and why can't we do this and let's let's go and find out or let's get involved more. 0:31:44.300 --> 0:31:51.940
Nicole
Which a lot of women didn't at the beginning and we had a greater voice of challenging that that piece. 0:31:53.80 --> 0:31:55.260
Nicole
But the multicultural piece does. 0:31:56.270 --> 0:32:1.540
Nicole
I really eye opener at the beginning started talking to the few. 0:32:2.680 --> 0:32:3.980
Nicole
Black kids that were with us. 0:32:5.290 --> 0:32:8.110
Nicole
And it was really eye opening back for sure. 0:32:10.650 --> 0:32:18.90
Elizabeth Lafrance
To what extent did your generation believe that your parents, and their notions about gender, family and dating, were outdated? 0:32:20.490 --> 0:32:21.160
Nicole
OK. 0:32:24.290 --> 0:32:28.780
Nicole
Yes, it it was because of the pill. The pill changed our lives. 0:32:29.540 --> 0:32:30.870
Nicole
Because before that. 0:32:31.650 --> 0:32:32.40
Nicole
If. 0:32:35.950 --> 0:32:40.80
Nicole
And all of a sudden that was all gone. You could do whatever you wanted to. 0:32:40.770 --> 0:32:42.460
Nicole
Where as our parents. 0:32:43.630 --> 0:32:47.0
Nicole
You know, they they really believed in in being, you know. 0:32:48.370 --> 0:32:49.740
Nicole
More individual. 0:32:50.380 --> 0:32:51.30
Nicole
Um. 0:32:53.180 --> 0:32:58.140
Nicole
I could see that that was definitely a challenge. 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:0.650
Nicole
Equal pay for equal work. 0:33:1.650 --> 0:33:7.930
Nicole
Um, I think that was one that we started hearing a lot now in education, it was equal. 0:33:8.910 --> 0:33:18.150
Nicole
But the jobs were not equal and we were hearing that already because we would have, we would go into schools and do practicals. 0:33:19.140 --> 0:33:23.690
Nicole
And so we were in the schools and it was very obvious that. 0:33:24.620 --> 0:33:28.270
Nicole
The senior administration, principals and vice principals were all male. 0:33:29.910 --> 0:33:31.140
Nicole
There were no female. 0:33:32.10 --> 0:33:36.460
Nicole
That we saw. So we realized even then that. 0:33:37.210 --> 0:33:43.250
Nicole
Wait a SEC, why is there not. And-and 80% of teachers are female, but yet? 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:53.780
Nicole
You know, it was like 90% male in administration and and and also in the teaching environment we didn't have a lot of female teachers. 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:58.420
Nicole
So, and the ones we did really did help us. 0:33:59.210 --> 0:34:2.680
Nicole
To voice our-our concerns, but there's no question. 0:34:3.850 --> 0:34:6.370
Nicole
We were second guessing ourselves for that one for sure. 0:34:9.860 --> 0:34:12.670
Elizabeth Lafrance
Talking about to the 1970s. 0:34:14.780 --> 0:34:21.160
Elizabeth Lafrance
What aspect of Canadian to society did you see as most out of whack and in needing of fixing? 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.170
Nicole
Again, same thing. It really was. 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.330
Nicole
OK, great. equal work. 0:34:28.460 --> 0:34:37.30
Nicole
We- it was very obvious about that. We thought we could change the world. You do when you're at university because you're talking with other people that agree with you. 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:42.830
Nicole
And so it's only when you get into the work world that. 0:34:43.710 --> 0:34:46.310
Nicole
Things don't change as quickly as you want it to. 0:34:47.350 --> 0:34:51.180
Nicole
So the environment you live in through your university years. 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.120
Nicole
Are your most open. 0:34:55.260 --> 0:34:58.840
Nicole
In terms of questioning the why and how. 0:35:0.160 --> 0:35:4.550
Nicole
But it's only when you get into the work world that you realize, oh. 0:35:5.260 --> 0:35:6.120
Nicole
It's not as simple as that. 0:35:7.710 --> 0:35:10.120
Nicole
But in theory it sounded great that university. 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:12.680
Nicole
That was a huge right there. 0:35:14.240 --> 0:35:17.120
Nicole
And and it needed fixing. There's no question about that. 0:35:19.370 --> 0:35:20.140
Nicole
That’s the difference. 0:35:19.850 --> 0:35:20.380
Elizabeth Lafrance I'm. 0:35:24.900 --> 0:35:30.690
Elizabeth Lafrance
What were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:35:32.130 --> 0:35:36.950
Nicole
Again, women being able to work outside of home. 0:35:37.700 --> 0:35:41.610
Nicole
And I was still in that generation where you stayed at home with your kids. 0:35:42.810 --> 0:35:43.680
Nicole
Um. 0:35:45.890 --> 0:36:2.190
Nicole
And most women I knew were talking about being home with kids, you know, and share your kids and racism again, same thing. There was a lot of injustices in-in, in the black community. 0:36:2.940 --> 0:36:5.870
Nicole
And we were just starting to be aware. 0:36:7.510 --> 0:36:9.410
Nicole
So there was definitely. 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:11.330
Nicole
For that too. 0:36:15.240 --> 0:36:23.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you feel that any political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:36:24.430 --> 0:36:28.890
Nicole
They were responsible, responsive to the white male. 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:31.260
Nicole
No one else. 0:36:32.40 --> 0:36:33.850
Nicole
It was all about the white male. 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:36.420
Nicole
Everything was. 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:44.900
Nicole
Control directed. There's no question that we were not equal and not and we still are not represented. 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.130
Nicole
So you can imagine back then how much, how little there was. 0:36:49.900 --> 0:37:2.930
Nicole
And we were we were talking about it a lot more or aware of it here. That first generation that said, hang on here. You know, why is it that? But it took a lot of. 0:37:4.100 --> 0:37:8.840
Nicole
Thinking of looking ahead to want to be one of those women that broke the seal? 0:37:10.110 --> 0:37:12.820
Nicole
And that was that. It took a while for that to happen. 0:37:13.620 --> 0:37:13.820
Nicole
Here. 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:16.930
Elizabeth Lafrance
And. 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:25.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is also talking on how cultural historians have argued that introduction to the birth control pill. 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:28.70
Elizabeth Lafrance
Legalization of abortion and dissemination. 0:37:28.550 --> 0:37:40.540
Elizabeth Lafrance
Of the manifestation of the free love ideology changed general gender relations and dating practices, in the early 1970s, do you agree with this statement? 0:37:41.10 --> 0:37:48.790
Nicole
Absolutely. It was massive. It really was. It was huge. It changed the whole lives up for us as a woman. 0:37:49.780 --> 0:37:53.570
Nicole
And you could decide when you wanted to be a mother. 0:37:55.340 --> 0:37:56.0
Nicole
Didn't before. 0:37:56.650 --> 0:38:0.370
Nicole
There was an expectation when I remember my mom telling me that that. 0:38:1.490 --> 0:38:8.570
Nicole
These would come around and they’d be pregnant by now. Again like there was a huge push, whereas the pill changed back. 0:38:9.540 --> 0:38:12.370
Nicole
You wanted to work for another five years and not get pregnant. 0:38:13.500 --> 0:38:13.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:38:14.660 --> 0:38:18.750
Nicole
And you had control over your life much, much more than our parents did. 0:38:22.500 --> 0:38:26.660
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did dating look like? At UOttawa in the 1970s? 0:38:29.220 --> 0:38:29.420
Nicole
I. 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:31.310
Nicole
It was pretty crazy. 0:38:32.430 --> 0:38:36.760
Nicole
It really was that first generation of. 0:38:37.500 --> 0:38:38.950
Nicole
Whenever we want because. 0:38:39.630 --> 0:38:40.660
Nicole
I can't get pregnant. 0:38:42.210 --> 0:38:43.750
Nicole
So it was. 0:38:44.620 --> 0:38:47.480
Nicole
Some of it was bad. Some of it was over the top. 0:38:48.290 --> 0:38:51.0
Nicole
Some women got badly. 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:54.100
Nicole
Abused. 0:38:55.90 --> 0:38:57.940
Nicole
Because of that, and we. 0:38:58.810 --> 0:39:1.610
Nicole
We didn't know any better to say. 0:39:4.210 --> 0:39:6.660
Nicole
It's saying when we said no. 0:39:7.310 --> 0:39:9.480
Nicole
It means no those days. 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:15.250
Nicole
You-you had to be strong as an individual woman to say no. 0:39:15.980 --> 0:39:20.120
Nicole
And then I heard through the Grapevine often. 0:39:21.190 --> 0:39:33.200
Nicole
Me push the limits and women have been raped and and we would talk about it, but we never did anything about it. You didn't go to the police, didn't go to senior staff about it. You just. 0:39:34.660 --> 0:39:36.660
Nicole
Model of the person that had lived through it. 0:39:38.20 --> 0:39:38.580
Nicole
It was. 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:40.940
Nicole
Yeah, it was bad. 0:39:41.740 --> 0:39:47.920
Nicole
Um, you got smart as the group of women, and so if you didn't want to be. 0:39:48.940 --> 0:39:51.430
Nicole
You you moved in groups a lot. 0:39:52.980 --> 0:39:55.390
Nicole
As women, we still do, don't you? 0:39:56.180 --> 0:39:56.660
Nicole
You know. 0:39:56.520 --> 0:39:56.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yes. 0:39:57.340 --> 0:40:0.250
Nicole
Yeah. So you learn to be smart. 0:40:1.810 --> 0:40:3.920
Nicole
And I think that's what we learned. 0:40:4.750 --> 0:40:8.940
Nicole
About that part, just because you were on the pill did not mean you were safe, yes. 0:40:9.690 --> 0:40:13.400
Nicole
That's the people I think that they're very quickly. 0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:14.600
Nicole
Um. 0:40:15.330 --> 0:40:16.590
Nicole
And saying no. 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:29.750
Nicole
With something that we learned has a group of women like talking to each other and and saying, wait a SEC. You know, I don't want to go out with this guy and they're saying, well, why do we have to kind of thing? 0:40:30.500 --> 0:40:30.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:40:31.930 --> 0:40:32.230
Nicole
Negative. 0:40:33.470 --> 0:40:36.960
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:40:38.430 --> 0:40:38.890
Nicole
Ah. 0:40:40.240 --> 0:40:40.680
Nicole
I think. 0:40:42.60 --> 0:40:48.280
Nicole
We still work very, very much living the same as our parents in terms of expectations. 0:40:49.180 --> 0:40:51.520
Nicole
Finding a family wanting to be married. 0:40:52.240 --> 0:40:58.450
Nicole
But we took longer to do it. We waited longer because we had that luxury. 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:1.40
Nicole
Of not getting pregnant. 0:41:2.40 --> 0:41:6.710
Nicole
He had the time to make the decisions later. 0:41:7.440 --> 0:41:8.170
Nicole
Then our parents. 0:41:8.930 --> 0:41:12.30
Nicole
My mom was pregnant by 21. 0:41:12.690 --> 0:41:16.400
Nicole
Married. You know, in the suit she's married. She was pregnant. 0:41:17.500 --> 0:41:18.110
Nicole
Whereas. 0:41:18.870 --> 0:41:33.130
Nicole
I had that luxury of saying, well, you know what I-I wanna work. I wanna work more and take my time making those decisions and maybe finding the right guy. And so we had that luxury. 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:42.550
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:44.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so. 0:41:45.20 --> 0:41:46.620
Elizabeth Lafrance
You’ve read the questions, right? 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:47.140
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:49.430 --> 0:41:49.780
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:48.40 --> 0:41:50.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Do you want to answer like, the final question? 0:41:51.930 --> 0:41:52.990
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:55.290 --> 0:42:6.110
Elizabeth Lafrance
Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:42:6.810 --> 0:42:7.920
Nicole
Absolutely nothing. 0:42:9.600 --> 0:42:17.380
Nicole
There was always a security guard there, but he was as dangerous as the kids and the boys. 0:42:18.130 --> 0:42:21.730
Nicole
And that's why we were really hung out as groups. 0:42:22.870 --> 0:42:29.100
Nicole
So women, unless you were with your boyfriend, you know that was wrong. You know, more of a relationship. 0:42:30.70 --> 0:42:40.430
Nicole
That security was half the time. It was one of the older guys that was paid to be that. It would have put a jacket on and he'd be a security guy. 0:42:41.100 --> 0:42:51.650
Nicole
Or an older man. And no, you did not go and tell those guys that something happened to you. It was never talked that way unless. 0:42:53.250 --> 0:43:3.420
Nicole
Unless the woman was beaten up and you had called, you had to call an ambulance. That was a different story, and even then it was it was not sexually. 0:43:5.630 --> 0:43:9.850
Nicole
I'm saying so it we didn’t talk about that part very much- she didn't. 0:43:10.870 --> 0:43:16.530
Nicole
I never experienced anyone around me that happened. I heard it through the Grapevine. 0:43:17.210 --> 0:43:17.800
Nicole
Um. 0:43:18.900 --> 0:43:21.270
Nicole
But no, there was.
Nicole
You really had to think on your feet. You had to be smart. 0:43:30.350 --> 0:43:31.740
Nicole
And you learned that. 0:43:32.410 --> 0:43:39.910
Nicole
Being the women burned, what was safer to do so that you wouldn't? You wouldn't get in that situation. 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:41.320
Nicole
And. 0:43:42.490 --> 0:43:53.430
Nicole
I was lucky and my group lucky, so I guess it depended on you know, the type of relationship you have with the guys and how you did each other. 0:43:54.60 --> 0:43:57.350
Nicole
But I heard that line I would hear about. 0:43:58.210 --> 0:43:58.460
Nicole
Or. 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:3.890
Nicole
Absolutely. Especially the first two years and it was always senior guys. 0:44:4.780 --> 0:44:5.740
Nicole
You know that would be. 0:44:7.220 --> 0:44:10.700
Nicole
Going on at after the- the younger ones who had just arrived. 0:44:12.130 --> 0:44:13.620
Nicole
And that- that made a big difference. 0:44:16.810 --> 0:44:30.940
Elizabeth Lafrance
Our generation is interested in a free love movement. What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in 1970s? Was it viewed negatively, accepted or even encouraged? 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:36.810
Nicole
It was encouraged. I was fun. It really was. I mean, we were that first generation. 0:44:37.550 --> 0:44:39.190
Nicole
That all of a sudden? 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.170
Nicole
You you didn't have to worry about it. So you. 0:44:44.240 --> 0:44:45.10
Nicole
You had fun. 0:44:46.310 --> 0:44:48.260
Nicole
It was definitely expected. 0:44:48.920 --> 0:45:3.980
Nicole
And yet there was still a lot of girls who didn't want to go on the pill and did not really, you know, save themselves for the- the guy. And that was fine too. But most of us. 0:45:5.10 --> 0:45:8.760
Nicole
Um, you just live the way you want to. 0:45:10.170 --> 0:45:11.950
Nicole
It was pretty wild, that's for sure. 0:45:15.530 --> 0:45:21.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did members of your parents generation worry about pre marital sex? 0:45:22.30 --> 0:45:24.710
Nicole
Ohm. My God, my mother was so petrified for me to get pregnant. 0:45:25.410 --> 0:45:52.490
Nicole
And she didn't find out I was on the pill till much later. Didn't ask her permission to. I didn't dare talk about that. And it's only years later. And by then my sister, who's not much older and much younger than I was. And I'm the one who told her, alright, you're gonna do something. You better go get it and we could. We could go into a clinic. We could go into. It was right on campus. 0:45:53.850 --> 0:45:56.80
Nicole
That part you could find. 0:45:56.270 --> 0:46:0.980
Nicole
Um prescription for- for the pill, that's for sure. 0:46:2.130 --> 0:46:3.120
Nicole
It was. 0:46:5.350 --> 0:46:30.950
Nicole
It would. You just could find it. I- I went to my family doctor and by then I was one. And the other thing too. We were we were older because we had grade 13. Right. So we were one year older. So by the time we finished and I had to have a 5 year degree. So we were there for quite a while. So we were a lot older. 0:46:31.990 --> 0:46:33.570
Nicole
So that made a difference too. 0:46:34.660 --> 0:46:40.720
Nicole
But the decisions were easier to get to, and the- the bill was easy to get too, for sure. 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:41.950
Nicole
Um. 0:46:42.850 --> 0:46:45.80
Nicole
And I think that changed. How. 0:46:46.610 --> 0:46:47.220
Nicole
We lived. 0:46:51.100 --> 0:46:52.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So it's all my questions. 0:46:53.10 --> 0:46:56.590
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'm going to stop the recording and. 0:46:59.10 --> 0:46:59.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
transcription now. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4, 47 minutes, 13 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Turpin, Nicole (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about The University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including the counter-culture movement and second-wave feminism Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Bilingualism Generational Differences Hippies Kiniesiology Leisure Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Popular Music Race Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Sovereignty Sports The Pill University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mokhtare Zadeh, Tara Location The location of the interview Toronto, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:6.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'm testing it right now and it doesn't seem the echo is affecting it. 0:0:6.470 --> 0:0:8.20
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So, OK, there we go. 0:3:19.180 --> 0:3:22.750
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So I'll start the recording process now. 0:3:29.880 --> 0:3:30.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:3:30.980 --> 0:3:36.880
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll begin with the first section, which is impact of popular culture. 0:3:37.810 --> 0:3:48.990
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music in a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:3:50.300 --> 0:3:57.550
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We want to better understand how students relate together with popular culture. 0:3:57.980 --> 0:4:3.320
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. 0:4:3.690 --> 0:4:8.970
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How was your leisure time structured, or what did students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:4:11.740 --> 0:4:13.30
Dave
We weren't on our cell phones. 0:4:16.820 --> 0:4:17.310
Dave
Golly. 0:4:20.200 --> 0:4:21.310
Dave
I've umm. 0:4:22.330 --> 0:4:26.40
Dave
I had a car so I did and it kept me pretty poor. 0:4:26.270 --> 0:4:28.540
Dave
You either had a car or you could have a social life. 0:4:28.630 --> 0:4:29.420
Dave
I picked a car. 0:4:31.250 --> 0:4:31.780
Dave
I didn't. 0:4:31.870 --> 0:4:36.910
Dave
I didn't go out a lot so I I I I didn't live on campus. 0:4:36.920 --> 0:4:37.940
Dave
I lived off campus. 0:4:37.950 --> 0:4:41.460
Dave
My my first degree, but there I didn't. 0:4:44.90 --> 0:4:47.60
Dave
I meet a lot of people there. 0:4:47.70 --> 0:4:47.320
Dave
I'm. 0:4:47.330 --> 0:4:58.880
Dave
I'm not that at that time wasn't really going or Calgarian, so I don't think I I didn't go and hang out to to any of the bars or whatever busy studying too. 0:4:58.890 --> 0:4:59.60
Dave
A lot. 0:4:59.700 --> 0:5:2.230
Dave
Umm and I go home on. 0:5:2.320 --> 0:5:6.60
Dave
So I lived in Toronto at the time, so I I'd go home from London to Toronto. 0:5:8.40 --> 0:5:11.140
Dave
Many weekends, I think at that time I had a girlfriend. 0:5:12.980 --> 0:5:15.470
Dave
So any of the social stuff I did was probably in Toronto. 0:5:18.510 --> 0:5:19.280
Dave
I didn't really. 0:5:19.290 --> 0:5:26.880
Dave
So I lived off campus, so I didn't do a lot of on campus stuff and I didn't really go out and hang out a lot off campus. 0:5:27.570 --> 0:5:28.280
Dave
This, I said. 0:5:28.520 --> 0:5:29.970
Dave
If you had a car, you were poor. 0:5:31.940 --> 0:5:32.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:5:31.680 --> 0:5:37.660
Dave
I put myself through university mostly so it was whatever my summer job gave me in terms of money. 0:5:37.670 --> 0:5:41.440
Dave
That's what I lived on, so it was pretty, pretty Spartan. 0:5:42.880 --> 0:5:52.900
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I know you said that you didn't spend much time on campus, but what were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus that you are aware of? 0:5:54.180 --> 0:5:58.780
Dave
It was a every campus has a bar pub, so I'd go there a bit. 0:6:1.260 --> 0:6:2.410
Dave
Let's say I don't really think. 0:6:2.420 --> 0:6:4.350
Dave
I mean, there'd be football games. 0:6:4.360 --> 0:6:10.240
Dave
You know the the the people go to umm, you really hang out that much? 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:14.310
Dave
Umm I I hadn't met that many people. 0:6:14.540 --> 0:6:15.200
Dave
Men or women? 0:6:19.30 --> 0:6:21.870
Dave
Yeah, I don't really didn't really do that much on campus, to be honest. 0:6:23.360 --> 0:6:23.940
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:6:23.980 --> 0:6:27.360
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:6:28.640 --> 0:6:29.150
Dave
They had. 0:6:29.900 --> 0:6:33.50
Dave
Yeah, there was a concert venue off campus. 0:6:33.250 --> 0:6:39.510
Dave
A few shows dating with Murray McLaughlin was one vice Canadian folk singer. 0:6:40.160 --> 0:6:44.560
Dave
A few of those, but again, I'm I didn't spend a lot of money on that. 0:6:44.570 --> 0:6:45.880
Dave
So a few things. 0:6:46.670 --> 0:6:51.590
Dave
Mostly it'd be like a, a, a concert or something like that rock concert. 0:6:53.110 --> 0:6:55.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'll be skipping the next question. 0:6:56.70 --> 0:7:3.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the original question after that is did anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:7:3.530 --> 0:7:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
But since Western isn't a bilingual institution, I'll change that question. 0:7:8.210 --> 0:7:16.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did anglophones and basically anyone else, whether it was like international students or anything, did they date each other in the 1970s? 0:7:17.690 --> 0:7:32.690
Dave
Album I I think so and back then it was a the university was a lot more white and Western is a is is or has been probably still is known as a fairly well off university. 0:7:32.700 --> 0:7:39.600
Dave
They the the women on campus, usually we're pretty from from from some money so. 0:7:41.910 --> 0:7:50.990
Dave
But I I don't think there was much in the way of uh, you know, mixed cultures or races, but I don't think anybody thought much of it. 0:7:51.0 --> 0:7:55.900
Dave
Like if you you just you hung out with these people in class or you date them. 0:7:55.910 --> 0:7:58.140
Dave
I don't think there's any issue that I don't think it wasn't. 0:7:58.150 --> 0:8:0.730
Dave
It wasn't big or or small or anything like it was just something. 0:8:0.740 --> 0:8:4.680
Dave
Ohh well, you know you're you're dating, you know, black girl, brown girl or whatever. 0:8:4.690 --> 0:8:6.50
Dave
I don't only get ever matter to anybody. 0:8:7.40 --> 0:8:8.150
Dave
You have to remember, was the. 0:8:8.310 --> 0:8:9.490
Dave
That was the early 70s. 0:8:9.500 --> 0:8:20.610
Dave
So when I did my physics degree and and things were pretty like Toronto was still pretty white back then, it wasn't that there was a lot of other cultures and so on. 0:8:20.620 --> 0:8:22.490
Dave
It wasn't that we didn't know about them. 0:8:22.500 --> 0:8:23.570
Dave
It just wasn't that common. 0:8:23.580 --> 0:8:26.980
Dave
So Western was kind of a microcosm of that. 0:8:27.60 --> 0:8:31.440
Dave
So there there wasn't a lot of different cultures and that was. 0:8:33.160 --> 0:8:35.70
Dave
50 years ago so. 0:8:34.950 --> 0:8:35.90
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You. 0:8:37.600 --> 0:8:43.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside the classroom. 0:8:44.80 --> 0:8:48.410
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How would you describe the party culture on campus during the 1970s? 0:8:52.100 --> 0:9:0.310
Dave
Well, by the time my, my second degree I I started I started 1979, I graduated 92. 0:9:1.120 --> 0:9:7.290
Dave
Umm, there was a lot, a lot more party atmosphere than I think that much later. 0:9:8.20 --> 0:9:14.760
Dave
But again, I I lived off campus in my PhD degree or my my physiotherapy degree. 0:9:14.770 --> 0:9:17.470
Dave
I was married at the time and my first daughter. 0:9:17.480 --> 0:9:23.480
Dave
Your Matt's mom was two weeks old when I first started. 0:9:24.100 --> 0:9:31.600
Dave
Umm my physiotherapy degree, so there wasn't a lot of social life that I kind of participated in. 0:9:33.340 --> 0:9:39.870
Dave
I think most of a lot of my classmates, it was a professional degree, so a lot of my classmates, we got to know each other, we hung out. 0:9:39.880 --> 0:9:44.360
Dave
We had a lot of class parties, umm and love love. 0:9:44.370 --> 0:9:49.740
Dave
The kids would go to off campus to some of the bars and stuff, so I think that was fairly common all through the 70s. 0:9:52.930 --> 0:9:56.250
Dave
I mean, there's only so much on campus, and you're gonna do most of the social life. 0:9:56.300 --> 0:10:0.740
Dave
You went off, grabbed a bus with your buddies or whatever when off campus. 0:10:3.60 --> 0:10:7.0
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:13.850
Dave
Yeah, it's a. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.930
Dave
It's a while ago I I don't. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:17.950
Dave
It wasn't umm. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:22.290
Dave
I don't think it's a big thing. 0:10:22.300 --> 0:10:23.800
Dave
I mean, it wasn't something we talked about. 0:10:24.900 --> 0:10:28.110
Dave
You knew what was going on, but I don't think it was. 0:10:28.340 --> 0:10:36.370
Dave
I don't recall it being a big topic of conversation or or, you know, getting together and having, you know, heated conversations about whether right or wrong. 0:10:36.380 --> 0:10:37.560
Dave
I would or whatever. Umm. 0:10:38.430 --> 0:10:42.100
Dave
I I at that like and by the by the late 70s. 0:10:42.110 --> 0:10:43.130
Dave
I don't think it was a. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.950
Dave
Not really a topic of conversation at all, and it wasn't it. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.50
Dave
It was South of the border, so it wasn't as much our problem as it was. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.50
Dave
I've had friends from high school who went. 0:10:55.620 --> 0:10:58.820
Dave
Listed in the states, but it wasn't really our problem. 0:10:58.830 --> 0:11:1.650
Dave
I don't think was a lot of conversation about it. 0:11:2.280 --> 0:11:4.570
Dave
The way probably was in the state. 0:11:6.110 --> 0:11:12.250
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so rock'n'roll artist in the 1960s have promoted various forms of protest. 0:11:12.590 --> 0:11:17.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just some sort of pop form of popular music? 0:11:20.560 --> 0:11:24.580
Dave
My folks are pretty straight at least, so they there was. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.310
Dave
I thought there was a little bit of rebellion or dollars. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:28.930
Dave
They weren't awful, but they were. 0:11:29.80 --> 0:11:33.110
Dave
Mom and Dad were straight down the line, so yes, I would say they were. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.150
Dave
They would consider it a bit rebellious, uh? 0:11:39.620 --> 0:11:42.230
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so some sorry. 0:11:40.670 --> 0:11:45.640
Dave
That dad dad used to joke that they were there to be some music on the radio. 0:11:45.650 --> 0:11:48.200
Dave
He he'd say those guys aren't gonna finish at the same time. 0:11:48.210 --> 0:11:50.650
Dave
Are they all the positions is there? 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:54.110
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:11:52.370 --> 0:11:54.380
Dave
Sorry, yeah, didn't much show. 0:11:57.50 --> 0:12:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs to what extent to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 0:12:10.930 --> 0:12:11.330
Dave
It wasn't. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.790
Dave
It wasn't a big thing. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.580
Dave
I mean it it there are kids are kids. 0:12:19.170 --> 0:12:22.160
Dave
If you wanted pot, you could you always do somebody. 0:12:22.170 --> 0:12:22.800
Dave
You could get it. 0:12:22.810 --> 0:12:24.170
Dave
It was still illegal then. Obviously. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:26.170
Dave
Umm yeah. 0:12:26.900 --> 0:12:28.190
Dave
I I don't think. 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:31.330
Dave
I don't know. 0:12:31.340 --> 0:12:33.120
Dave
There's a lot of regular outside of part of. 0:12:33.130 --> 0:12:34.770
Dave
There's a lot of recreational drug use. 0:12:34.810 --> 0:12:36.370
Dave
And even cocaine was not. 0:12:38.420 --> 0:12:41.790
Dave
Probably by the 80s or 90s, cocaine became more calm. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.140
Dave
And but I don't think, umm, I didn't know anybody. 0:12:45.150 --> 0:12:45.520
Dave
Who? 0:12:45.590 --> 0:12:47.240
Dave
Who knew anybody kind of thing? 0:12:47.250 --> 0:12:47.480
Dave
Who? 0:12:47.490 --> 0:12:48.60
Dave
Who used it? 0:12:48.70 --> 0:12:48.880
Dave
Or or or or. 0:12:48.890 --> 0:12:49.800
Dave
No, but I mean it was. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:55.520
Dave
Was around I'm sure, but I think that the most common thing would have been marijuana. 0:12:55.530 --> 0:12:57.450
Dave
But again, you had to. 0:12:57.700 --> 0:12:59.650
Dave
You had to work hard to get it and. 0:13:1.640 --> 0:13:2.350
Dave
Hello I don't. 0:13:4.730 --> 0:13:8.190
Dave
So I'm aware of not none of my friends or classmates really used it a lot. 0:13:8.920 --> 0:13:13.500
Dave
If anything was marijuana, I don't think anybody I knew used anything else. 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:15.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Here. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the next question is optional, but I'll ask it anyways. 0:13:18.900 --> 0:13:21.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You could choose to answer it or not. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:27.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So from the 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:13:32.450 --> 0:13:32.700
Dave
Who? 0:13:32.900 --> 0:13:35.50
Dave
I you know, I don't, I don't think so. 0:13:35.60 --> 0:13:39.870
Dave
I think I may be naive here, but I I think you're at on campus. 0:13:40.270 --> 0:13:46.780
Dave
You have why should have a little bit more money to maybe other campuses, but I I I I don't think there was a really a focus on that. 0:13:46.790 --> 0:13:52.700
Dave
I think you kids are kids, obviously, but I don't think there was a lot of tripping went on. 0:13:52.710 --> 0:13:55.800
Dave
I mean, you had to still show up for class and not fail out and so on. 0:13:56.130 --> 0:13:56.540
Dave
So I don't. 0:13:58.890 --> 0:14:1.290
Dave
I don't think at at at Western. 0:14:1.300 --> 0:14:5.980
Dave
I don't think there's a big thing at all, and certainly nothing that I heard. 0:14:6.250 --> 0:14:10.40
Dave
I mean, I was always something, I guess, but it wasn't really common at all. 0:14:10.470 --> 0:14:13.940
Dave
And I again, they were harder to come by even than than marijuana. 0:14:13.980 --> 0:14:14.440
Dave
So. 0:14:14.650 --> 0:14:18.750
Dave
So I don't think it was a big thing for me on on Western's campus. 0:14:20.250 --> 0:14:20.960
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:14:21.30 --> 0:14:25.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll be moving on to next section, which is about the female experience. 0:14:26.730 --> 0:14:31.720
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave feminism. 0:14:32.210 --> 0:14:38.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the night in the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:14:39.250 --> 0:14:45.160
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Universe University campus during the early 1970s? 0:14:47.0 --> 0:14:47.890
Dave
I would say so. 0:14:47.900 --> 0:14:49.940
Dave
I think it was it. 0:14:50.100 --> 0:14:56.480
Dave
Yeah, there was a lot of assuming we can do what we want to kind of thing, I mean. 0:14:58.610 --> 0:15:3.660
Dave
I I think that was the the the in the the heat of it back then. 0:15:3.670 --> 0:15:14.20
Dave
I mean, women were very conscious of doing what they wanted as they wanted, looking out for themselves, career, sex, as they wanted to, relationships as they wanted to. 0:15:14.30 --> 0:15:16.20
Dave
I think that was huge back then. 0:15:16.30 --> 0:15:20.90
Dave
I it wasn't something you to me. 0:15:20.100 --> 0:15:21.980
Dave
It wasn't a big thing, was kind of like, you know, OK. 0:15:22.20 --> 0:15:27.160
Dave
Ohh of course you know and I think a lot of it was that it wasn't like people were. 0:15:27.450 --> 0:15:30.960
Dave
I don't remember a protester or or things like that. 0:15:31.30 --> 0:15:36.890
Dave
On a cap, women on campus protesting stuff like that, which is kind of, we're just going to do like, let's get it done kind of thing. 0:15:36.990 --> 0:15:37.580
Dave
It wasn't. 0:15:37.890 --> 0:15:38.760
Dave
It wasn't really. 0:15:39.670 --> 0:15:40.410
Dave
There was a lot of. 0:15:41.150 --> 0:15:42.870
Dave
I'm sad. 0:15:43.450 --> 0:15:46.440
Dave
Social action about which is something like you kind of went. 0:15:46.450 --> 0:15:46.800
Dave
Yeah, OK. 0:15:46.810 --> 0:15:47.570
Dave
This makes sense. 0:15:47.580 --> 0:15:48.870
Dave
At least that's my perception of it. 0:15:49.900 --> 0:15:56.570
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so in your own words, what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? 0:15:59.30 --> 0:15:59.700
Dave
Jeez, I don't know. 0:16:5.820 --> 0:16:11.900
Dave
I I guess just equality like the do do. 0:16:11.910 --> 0:16:16.990
Dave
There's no particular roles that do what you want it to. 0:16:17.660 --> 0:16:20.110
Dave
I it wasn't to me. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:29.110
Dave
It wasn't about and activism or or protesting or whatever I think was just about, well, yeah, just do what? 0:16:29.290 --> 0:16:30.30
Dave
What's right? 0:16:30.40 --> 0:16:30.680
Dave
You know what I mean? 0:16:30.690 --> 0:16:31.780
Dave
I it wasn't. 0:16:31.850 --> 0:16:39.200
Dave
I don't think it was a something to galvanized people to to get together and protest or you know, whatever. 0:16:39.210 --> 0:16:40.150
Dave
I think it was just kinda. 0:16:40.460 --> 0:16:43.220
Dave
Yeah, that's just this is this is right, let's just move on. 0:16:45.260 --> 0:16:49.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:16:50.180 --> 0:16:56.820
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classroom or at social events compared to male students? 0:17:3.570 --> 0:17:4.60
Dave
Yeah, I know. 0:17:4.70 --> 0:17:7.430
Dave
We like, I think roles were still like. 0:17:11.100 --> 0:17:11.440
Dave
You're. 0:17:13.820 --> 0:17:14.220
Dave
Your. 0:17:15.740 --> 0:17:19.160
Dave
Dating and hanging out, it was like a A I don't think. 0:17:22.140 --> 0:17:23.500
Dave
I mean a role. 0:17:23.510 --> 0:17:27.590
Dave
I don't know if you had classmates who were male, female. 0:17:27.660 --> 0:17:28.490
Dave
Have you hung out? 0:17:28.980 --> 0:17:31.680
Dave
We'd, we'd laugh and joke and and study. 0:17:37.420 --> 0:17:38.190
Dave
OK, this thing. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:39.780
Dave
Sorry, my phones ringing here. 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:40.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That's OK. 0:17:42.300 --> 0:17:42.660
Dave
I can't even. 0:17:46.930 --> 0:17:47.500
Dave
So I don't. 0:17:49.650 --> 0:17:50.970
Dave
Like I don't, it's just. 0:17:54.340 --> 0:17:55.150
Dave
There wasn't a blur. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.60
Dave
I I don't know like it was just you. 0:17:59.370 --> 0:18:0.830
Dave
Guys hang out with girls like. 0:18:0.840 --> 0:18:3.170
Dave
Yeah, because they were girls and and and vice versa. 0:18:3.180 --> 0:18:6.940
Dave
Like it wasn't a, it wasn't kind of a confusion or a wondering about that. 0:18:7.90 --> 0:18:9.390
Dave
It was just kind of, you know, does that make sense? 0:18:10.650 --> 0:18:11.980
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
I suppose, yeah. 0:18:12.390 --> 0:18:17.220
0:20:59.170 --> 0:21:6.450
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So in the 1970s, where their programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted. 0:21:12.590 --> 0:21:12.800
Dave
I'm. 0:21:16.0 --> 0:21:18.70
Dave
I don't, I don't think so. 0:21:18.530 --> 0:21:20.0
Dave
I'm. I never. 0:21:20.90 --> 0:21:25.140
Dave
I didn't join many of those things, so I don't draw a lot of first time knowledge. 0:21:25.150 --> 0:21:25.980
Dave
I don't think there was any. 0:21:28.150 --> 0:21:33.940
Dave
I think, yeah, nothing that I can think are really any any discrimination that way. 0:21:33.950 --> 0:21:34.500
Dave
Any difference? 0:21:36.660 --> 0:21:36.850
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:21:37.890 --> 0:21:46.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
In the sense of departments, I suppose it's meaning like the Steins Department or alike engineering, where they less present in that. 0:21:45.750 --> 0:21:48.580
Dave
Ohh, OK Ohh OK, sorry I misunderstood. 0:21:48.590 --> 0:21:48.920
Dave
Yeah. 0:21:48.930 --> 0:21:54.810
Dave
Well, certainly engineering was, you know, was a guys hang out all the stuff they did. 0:21:54.820 --> 0:21:58.160
Dave
There were very few women in engineering. 0:21:58.390 --> 0:22:7.0
Dave
More in science, my that's we have a my class in in, umm physiotherapy. 0:22:7.200 --> 0:22:7.840
Dave
It was. 0:22:7.990 --> 0:22:11.720
Dave
It was thirty students and 25 are women, so that was. 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:17.560
Dave
But I think that kind of reflected more sort of what society expected people to do. 0:22:17.620 --> 0:22:27.650
Dave
But the I think that was part of it, that women didn't gravitate into things like engineering and technology math, that sort of thing. Umm. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:27.910
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:22:29.590 --> 0:22:35.280
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll move on to next bit, which is about ideology and generational differences. 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:44.430
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're a generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:52.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.660
Dave
I don't think there was a lot of. 0:23:1.160 --> 0:23:4.680
Dave
Yeah, sort of social action around that. 0:23:4.690 --> 0:23:9.780
Dave
I I think we, uh, something that you knew about, but it wasn't. 0:23:9.790 --> 0:23:10.570
Dave
There wasn't a whole lot of. 0:23:13.190 --> 0:23:16.350
Dave
Activity around that like I think we were aware of it, but there wasn't. 0:23:16.390 --> 0:23:20.0
Dave
It wasn't something that we it wasn't protests and and things like that. 0:23:20.10 --> 0:23:23.770
Dave
I mean, umm, universities are a different culture. 0:23:23.780 --> 0:23:30.330
Dave
It's kind of a little microcosm of the the world in there, but I don't think I recall anything along those lines. 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:39.660
Dave
Umm, any kind of counterculture kind of extra interest the. 0:23:42.290 --> 0:23:44.670
Dave
Maybe I I I just can't think of. 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:52.790
Dave
Like aside from from different faculties and so on, but I I don't think there's any kind of interest in that kind of stuff at all. 0:23:52.850 --> 0:23:53.710
Dave
Not that I'm aware of. 0:23:55.260 --> 0:24:3.350
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:24:9.160 --> 0:24:11.740
Dave
But to a fair degree, I guess I mean. 0:24:13.630 --> 0:24:19.40
Dave
Umm, gender wasn't a big thing back then, not like it is now. 0:24:19.230 --> 0:24:25.640
Dave
Dating, I think you know, my parents hope that you'd marry. 0:24:26.10 --> 0:24:30.160
Dave
So don't have kids and grandkids so quickly kind of thing. 0:24:30.170 --> 0:24:35.300
Dave
So and and you know you, you'd marry a nice girl or she'd marry a nice guy or whatever. 0:24:36.310 --> 0:24:45.160
Dave
I think by the 70s we were a little more laid back about who we picked as a partner, whatever for dating or for marriage or whatever. 0:24:45.170 --> 0:24:52.50
Dave
So yeah, I would say we were then pushing away from what my parents would expect. 0:24:53.580 --> 0:24:59.230
Dave
Back in my so my parents culture is very like they they it was, it was post war. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:4.910
Dave
So it was busy getting on with things and building a life and so on and all of other stuff. 0:25:4.920 --> 0:25:15.290
Dave
My, my, my parents didn't probably appreciate that as much the so why can't you just find a nice girl and settle down and kind of would be there philosophy, you know? 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:16.620
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:25:17.610 --> 0:25:26.610
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so looking back at the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? 0:25:29.980 --> 0:25:30.140
Dave
Yeah. 0:25:31.770 --> 0:25:32.440
Dave
See, I don't know. 0:25:32.460 --> 0:25:33.750
Dave
I really thought about it. Umm. 0:25:40.130 --> 0:25:42.150
Dave
I'm not really sure. 0:25:44.540 --> 0:25:49.870
Dave
I don't think Ohh most of the people I knew weren't really social activists. 0:25:50.780 --> 0:25:52.290
Dave
Umm, weren't. 0:25:54.430 --> 0:25:55.60
Dave
Concerned. 0:25:56.180 --> 0:25:57.460
Dave
No, that's not the right word. 0:25:57.540 --> 0:25:59.900
Dave
Word weren't active about it. Umm. 0:26:2.20 --> 0:26:2.530
Dave
I don't think we. 0:26:4.390 --> 0:26:7.810
Dave
Like you're you're sort of busy doing your own thing rather than worrying about. 0:26:9.490 --> 0:26:10.560
Dave
Social change. 0:26:10.570 --> 0:26:14.60
Dave
Social action, at least not that I'm aware of. 0:26:14.70 --> 0:26:14.570
Dave
I don't, I don't. 0:26:16.330 --> 0:26:20.130
Dave
In kind of a university environment, that wasn't anything that I particularly saw. 0:26:22.90 --> 0:26:28.380
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:26:30.550 --> 0:26:30.980
Dave
Don't go away. 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.130
Dave
That I'm having trouble remembering. 0:26:38.110 --> 0:26:40.630
Dave
Well, we weren't aware of it, but certainly indigenous. 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.880
Dave
Stuff was we I don't think we were aware of it as much back then as we are now. 0:26:48.40 --> 0:26:56.400
Dave
Umm, some level of of gender women weren't didn't have access to as many things, but we weren't. 0:26:57.310 --> 0:26:59.200
Dave
That wasn't a hot social issue. 0:27:0.380 --> 0:27:1.30
Dave
Umm. 0:27:5.990 --> 0:27:11.460
Dave
And I I can't think of like it wasn't something that I I think I was particularly aware of. 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:19.770
Dave
You know you're busy doing other things, but not really aware of the the wider social issues kind of thing. 0:27:21.740 --> 0:27:22.390
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:27.710
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:27:31.20 --> 0:27:39.900
Dave
I I would say mostly I mean, so I don't think people thought the system was perfect, but I don't think there was much. 0:27:42.450 --> 0:27:43.570
Dave
Unrestored or. 0:27:45.90 --> 0:27:46.350
Dave
Activism around that. 0:27:48.580 --> 0:27:51.240
Dave
I think there was, I think. 0:27:53.900 --> 0:27:54.40
Dave
Yeah. 0:27:54.40 --> 0:27:58.810
Dave
It's just they're the political system has always been a bit corrupt, I suppose. 0:27:58.820 --> 0:28:8.160
Dave
Or open to all kinds of things, but not not as much and not as umm known as as it is today. Umm. 0:28:9.920 --> 0:28:12.300
Dave
So umm, I would say. 0:28:14.450 --> 0:28:17.280
Dave
To some degree, but not we were. 0:28:17.290 --> 0:28:20.510
Dave
We were busy doing other things, I think rather than focused on that stuff. 0:28:22.510 --> 0:28:37.580
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and it's this, the dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and the dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:28:37.890 --> 0:28:39.180
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Do you agree with that statement? 0:28:40.180 --> 0:28:41.80
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:42.820
Dave
Yes, very much so. 0:28:43.40 --> 0:28:43.670
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:44.450 --> 0:28:44.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:28:44.100 --> 0:28:47.100
Dave
Yeah, we did change dating hugely. 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:53.80
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did dating look like on campus during the 1970s? 0:28:54.830 --> 0:28:56.210
Dave
Alright, there was. 0:28:56.220 --> 0:28:57.630
Dave
There was a lot of party, yeah. 0:29:0.220 --> 0:29:3.400
Dave
I I think it was much more. 0:29:7.740 --> 0:29:14.650
Dave
Kids were looking to *** **** more and and did *** **** more than you know a decade before. 0:29:14.820 --> 0:29:20.940
Dave
Certainly my parents generation the the uh birth control, it changed a lot. 0:29:20.950 --> 0:29:22.940
Dave
The contraception changed all that. 0:29:23.850 --> 0:29:29.430
Dave
Which meant you could be more sexual activity that with, you know, worrying about and. 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:33.90
Dave
And it was kind of like, well, this is where it should be kind of thing. 0:29:33.100 --> 0:29:33.820
Dave
You know, it wasn't. 0:29:34.130 --> 0:29:40.210
Dave
You went around celebrate, but it was just kind of, but it made things a lot easier. 0:29:40.220 --> 0:29:42.230
Dave
I think people had a lot more fun. 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.870
Dave
I think a lot more hooking up the one on umm, uh. 0:29:46.730 --> 0:29:47.540
Dave
Personally, not me. 0:29:47.550 --> 0:29:51.620
Dave
I had a girlfriend back in Toronto at the time and my secondary. 0:29:51.630 --> 0:29:56.420
Dave
I was married with a host at a mortgage and A and a two week old baby. 0:29:56.430 --> 0:29:59.940
Dave
So it was a lot of partying there for me, but I think it was. 0:30:0.570 --> 0:30:6.470
Dave
I think it definitely had an impact and made, uh, minute kids. 0:30:6.620 --> 0:30:11.790
Dave
So want to enable to some do more. 0:30:13.620 --> 0:30:17.170
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:30:19.950 --> 0:30:24.400
Dave
I think it was just assumed that you'd eventually get married and have a family. 0:30:24.410 --> 0:30:30.50
Dave
I think that was many of the people I knew that wasn't an overt thing. 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:32.940
Dave
The joke in the 70s was that. 0:30:35.710 --> 0:30:38.860
Dave
At Western lot of women came to get their Mrs degree. 0:30:39.890 --> 0:30:41.280
Dave
They did to find a husband. 0:30:41.610 --> 0:30:44.440
Dave
That was the Western something that way. 0:30:44.450 --> 0:30:46.580
Dave
But I think it was kind of. 0:30:46.790 --> 0:30:51.390
Dave
It was assumed that you'd at some point get married and have a family. 0:30:53.460 --> 0:30:58.460
Dave
That was the only sort of social structure we you you grew up with kind of thing. 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:0.760
Dave
And again at the time. 0:31:2.830 --> 0:31:3.630
Dave
Toronto is fairly. 0:31:4.540 --> 0:31:7.830
Dave
Of pretty, pretty straightforward. 0:31:7.840 --> 0:31:18.990
Dave
We were conservative, I think very conservative in our behavior and there wasn't a lot of I'm non non traditional families and stuff like that. 0:31:19.0 --> 0:31:26.810
Dave
So you came from a background where where you know the mom and dad and you had kids, you know, you had siblings and so on. 0:31:26.820 --> 0:31:33.190
Dave
And that's kind of what you grew up expecting, I think in the 70s, people were looking perhaps to change that later. 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:38.440
Dave
But I think the expectations were, you know, a family house in the suburbs and and whatnot. 0:31:41.40 --> 0:31:41.500
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:51.470
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we've reached the final portion of the interview, but this portion is completely optional and it does come with the disclaimer. 0:31:52.100 --> 0:31:56.810
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the following section is optional and it concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:31:57.300 --> 0:32:4.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:32:5.240 --> 0:32:10.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You may choose to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:32:13.170 --> 0:32:13.390
Dave
Yep. 0:32:14.550 --> 0:32:20.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. 0:32:20.410 --> 0:32:25.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:32:28.420 --> 0:32:33.100
Dave
I'm not not much if I don't think. 0:32:33.950 --> 0:32:38.220
Dave
I don't know that parties were that wild back then. 0:32:40.260 --> 0:32:43.220
Dave
I don't think the universities police that much at all. 0:32:43.230 --> 0:32:46.570
Dave
I mean, if something happened on campus, the police would show up, but it wasn't. 0:32:46.900 --> 0:32:47.450
Dave
Well, I don't know. 0:32:47.460 --> 0:32:49.130
Dave
It was a big thing policing. 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:56.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so our generation is interested in a free love movement. 0:32:56.640 --> 0:33:1.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
What was the perception of premarital sex on the university campus in the 1970s? 0:33:1.670 --> 0:33:4.310
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Was it viewed negatively accepted or even encouraged? 0:33:5.180 --> 0:33:6.620
Dave
Yeah, I would definitely encourage them. 0:33:8.60 --> 0:33:8.640
Dave
It was a. 0:33:13.330 --> 0:33:17.510
Dave
Like the world had opened, the doors are opened and you could do what you wanted to do. 0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:21.70
Dave
And yeah, so it was a very much a, I mean it wasn't. 0:33:23.550 --> 0:33:25.640
Dave
Radical hippies running around the university campus. 0:33:25.650 --> 0:33:28.850
Dave
But I I think that very much umm was. 0:33:31.290 --> 0:33:34.540
Dave
A birth control and and said open sexuality and so on. 0:33:34.550 --> 0:33:38.410
Dave
And and being able to do what you wanted was very much a thing then. 0:33:40.740 --> 0:33:44.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So did members of your parents generation worry about premarital sex? 0:33:45.980 --> 0:33:48.370
Dave
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:50.820
Dave
But only because you didn't. 0:33:50.860 --> 0:33:52.520
Dave
You didn't want to get the. 0:33:53.550 --> 0:34:0.290
Dave
You didn't want your daughter to get pregnant or your son to get her pregnant, so that was, I think, the premarital sex and and. 0:34:0.960 --> 0:34:7.160
Dave
And having a having a child having a pregnancy were were the big thing that. 0:34:7.170 --> 0:34:13.360
Dave
Not sure they were so worried about having sex was the consequences of that if if you happen to get her pregnant kind of thing. 0:34:13.370 --> 0:34:15.100
Dave
So I was very much concerned of theirs. 0:34:16.740 --> 0:34:24.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so that was the last question of the interview and I would love like to thank you so much for your time. Yes. 0:34:24.290 --> 0:34:24.720
Dave
OK. 0:34:24.730 --> 0:34:25.440
Dave
You're welcome. 0:34:25.450 --> 0:34:25.970
Dave
I hope it's helpful. 0:34:27.60 --> 0:34:27.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yes. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilkinson, Dave (Interview) Subject The topic of the resource Testimonial about Western University in London, Ontario during the 1970s, discussing popular culture, the female experience, ideology and generational differences, and sexuality and harassment. Description An account of the resource 2023-11-1 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nu7WhJHAE74?si=ey8dEPYmq50jRiFu" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><br />"Interview with Dave Wikkinson." Life on Campus, November 2, 2023. Video,&nbsp;<br />https://youtu.be/nu7WhJHAE74?si=J1EN0amFbW76fFx7 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 28 minutes, 18 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Activism Dating Drugs Free Love Gender Popular Music Protest Sexuality Vietnam Western University Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wang, Jonathan S. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. L (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview British Columbia, via phone call Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jonathan: Uh, hello? (00:00:19) L.M.: Hello? Jonathan: Hello, uh, L. Is this L.? L.M.: Yes. Can you hear me? Jonathan: Yeah, I can hear you. L.M.: OK. Well, that's good. Jonathan: OK. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this again. I, I can't believe. The last time didn't record anything. Uh. L.M.: Yeah, that's too bad. However, we'll try again. Jonathan: Yeah, we'll try again. Thank. Thank you so much for this, L.M.: You're welcome. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. Today is October 24th. And let us begin the interview. I'm gonna, I'm just going to go through all the questions in order this time. OK. So the first question about the popular culture of the time: “there were less electronics in Canadian society in the 1970s. How did you spend your leisure time”, or what did you do for fun? L.M.: I used to go swimming at the pool of University of Ottawa. I used to go skating on the canal. I used to go to the National Art Centre and the National Gallery and I used to have, go to restaurants or pubs with friends. (1:19) Jonathan: OK and, uh, were these restaurants, pubs the most popular hangout spots? L.M.: Uh, no. I used to go to a good Indian restaurant with my boyfriend that was on Nam. That was near the university and there was a creperie down on Rideau St. and there was Nate’s Delicatessen. Yeah, it was good. But yeah, I guess they were popular enough. I don't know. (01:52) Jonathan: But did you know any like, super popular places? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? OK then. Hmm. Well, yeah, that's that, I guess. Anyhow, you listen to- L.M.: That's right, I'm. I'm not really. I don't really fit the mold for wherever this this project is trying to go, I think anyway. Jonathan: Yeah. The super average student, I guess. Well, you listen to a lot of music during the time, right? L.M.: Yeah, I listen to folk music primarily. Jonathan: Yeah, hello. Folk and classical, you said last time. L.M.: Yeah, folk and classical. But I listen to, you know, I'm listened to Joan Baez. That's she would have been. She was popular in the time because she certainly was a, an, a political activist. Jonathan: Oh, but- (3:03) L.M.: So there you go. Jonathan: With the music, did you attend any live, live music concerts? L.M.: Well, as I said, yeah, some, some classical at the arts centre. I went to a couple of shows in Montreal, I went down to Montreal and heard Gilles Vigneault and Michel Fugain. At the Art Centre in Montreal. Jonathan: Yeah, the Arts in Montreal. Damn. Honestly, I don't, I don't even know any of these names. L.M.: Well, that's not surprising. They're they're, they're francophone, for one thing, so they're probably not culture that you're familiar with, and they're from the 70s, so. Jonathan: Yeah, long time. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. So you want to hear me say things like, oh, yeah, I went to The Rolling Stones and the Grateful Dead and. Jonathan: Well, it would be a lot more convenient if you did. L.M.: You'd have boxes that you could tick off. (4:00) Jonathan: Yeah, and be a lot easier to write everything. Ohh. OK, so the next part “we use the term party culture to describe certain universities.” How would you describe the “party culture” in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: That well, I wasn't particularly aware of it. I don't know if it was if it was around there, there used to be dances at the the first year I was in residence and there were often dances in the in the residence beside mine that I sometimes went to. Jonathan: Umm, but it was just like, dancing. Nothing really else happened there. L.M.: Yeah, it's just dancing. No, was just dancing. They had, you know, recorded music and there was dancing. Jonathan: Oh. Did you go to them? L.M.: Did I go to, did I go dancing there? Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. What's it like? “Organized dancing”, or is it like, you know, you just shake around, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M.: Yeah, let's just kind of shake around dancing. That's right. Jonathan: OK. And uh, what did the student body or yourself think about the Vietnam War? L.M.: Well, I wasn't. I wasn't in favor of it, obviously. It was. It was certainly disturbing at the time. There was a whole lot of as, as with any war, there's a whole lot of people being killed unnecessarily. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. But. Do you think there's like a, the- L.M.: There wasn't. There wasn't much discussion of it at, you know, in, you know, certainly among students. Jonathan: But did you think like the general consensus that most people, weren't, didn't really like it. They were kind of against it? (5:53) L.M.: Yeah, I think most people probably were. I mean, and certainly Canada, you know we we ended up with a lot of draft Dodgers from the, from the war. I think I mentioned that before I was. Certainly, you know, aware of that that there were young men coming up here because they didn't believe in the war. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm, did you personally see, meet any draft dodgers? L.M.: No, not that I can recall. Jonathan: All right. Next it's about rock'n'roll. I know you didn't listen to it a lot. But did you or maybe your parents think of, like, have any opinions about rock'n'roll? Do you see as like “devil music”? L.M.: No, I mean, I certainly it was totally, it was totally acceptable music for young people at the time, I didn't have anything against it. It just wasn't something I listened to a lot personally. Jonathan: OK. But and your. Did your parents have any opinions on it? (6:59) L.M.: No, I don't think so. Jonathan: Hmm, OK. Alright and- L.M.: I mean I- Jonathan: Yeah. L.M.: -Yeah. Jonathan: OK. L.M.: I mean the, I certainly, I certainly heard that. I mean I heard The Beatles, I heard the stones, I heard I. You know, if, if kids were having a party, that's the kind of that's the kind of music that we'd put on, it's actually. Jonathan: Ah. So it was still popular. L.M.: Certainly that now I'm going now. You know, I'm going back to UBC days. I think. I think maybe part of the difference at, with U of O is that I was a graduate student, you know, and I hung out with Med students and, and they were all pretty serious. You know, they had to get through Med school and so. Jonathan: Yeah, bachelor students are, yeah. A lot more relaxed. L.M.: Yeah. Well, exactly. I mean, they're younger and they're, you know, they're this is there for a lot of them. That's kind of their their, their chance to get away from home and so but. Jonathan: Have some fun, yeah. OK. And of course, 1970s. A lot of the, there was a lot of drugs being taken then. To what extent were drugs available or used on campus? (8:02) L.M.: I don't really know because I wasn't using them personally. You know, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were available. They're available everywhere, have been for years. Always have been, always will be. Jonathan: They are, that's true. But, hmm, did you maybe know a lot of drug users, like people who smoked marijuana? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? L.M.: I mean, yeah, well, that's, yeah. No, I certainly did. I certainly did know. Know some, I think, because I I knew a fellow who was, you know, who'd gone to high school in Ottawa. So he. Yeah, yeah, I know, he and his friends. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, it was definitely around. I was aware of. Of people who were using it. Jonathan: But do you also think it was common too? (9:04) L.M.: Oh yeah, sure, it was common. Jonathan: OK. And last thing about drugs. Uh, do you think a lot of students used hallucinogenics? Or psychedelic drugs too. L.M.: Yeah, I have no idea. I certainly I don't think. I don't think my friends were particular. I mean, the people I knew weren't into that, but. Again, I'm sure. They were out there. I know they were out there so. Jonathan: But it wasn't that common that you, you knew anyone who used it? L.M.: Yeah, it certainly wasn't terribly common among medical students. Jonathan: Oh yeah, would medical students know like a lot more about the drugs? L.M.: Oh, they probably knew somewhat more, but I don't. I not necessarily cause because I don't think any of them were. They probably knew enough not to use them. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. And that ends the first section about pop culture. Next is about the feminism, OK, so historians say they talk about the 2nd wave feminism as part of a, the general counterculture movement in the 1970s. It says that- (9:57) L.M.: How did that be second wave? When was the first wave? Did they talk about when the 1st? Jonathan: It was in. I think that was the early 1900s, when women like first got the right to vote. L.M.: Oh, OK. All right. So the, so second wave is what's going along in the 70s, OK? Jonathan: Yeah. So it says in the 1970s, woman worked to breakdown gender barriers and such. Does this? Well, does this description you know align with your experience in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: Oh yeah, sure. Jonathan: Yeah? Is there any like, specific thing that you can describe? L.M.: Well, I'm thinking that you know, I mean as I said, I ended up knowing a lot of medical students, my roommates were medical students. There were probably more women and well, and then and then I had one for a while one who was a law student too, so certainly there were more women. Entering the professions in that era than had been seen previously. (10:53) Jonathan: Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. OK. L.M.: There were more. There were more women in university and there were more women. There were definitely more women in the in the professions, particularly law, and medicine. I, I certainly saw more. Yeah, there were a lot more women going into those fields. I think it took a while for them to go, you know. And now you're seeing more in engineering too, that, that that was that that was longer, that took longer coming. But as I say in my in my era. There were, I think it was really the the beginning of, you know, seeing a lot of women in medicine and law. Jonathan: OK, so medicine and law you said we're like for you was the big, like a lot of woman took it up. I don't really describe that. Yeah. OK, uh, what did feminism like? Mean to you back then? Or maybe you'd- (11:55) L.M.: Yeah, as I think I- Jonathan: Yeah, I think you answered this before. L.M.: That yeah, I mean, because my own mother was a university professor like she was like way ahead of the curve. Right. So for me, having a, but I I certainly know as a child, I was the only, you know, I was the only woman. Er the only woman, the only person in my elementary school whose mother was. Was working I think, and you know, and that was probably pretty much the same through, through high school, although things might have started to change by then there were maybe some women, you know, working because their kids were in school. But but it was certainly less common, but to me. That was, you know, I, I always expected that I'd go to university and that I'd work because that was, you know, with having my mother as a role model that's just what I figured I'd do. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. So I guess would you call your, your mother, a feminist role model? (13:16) L.M.: She certainly wouldn't call herself that. You know, as many as the first. The women who were successful professionally tended to poo-poo the feminist movement because, you know, they'd made their own way. So they really couldn't understand what anybody else's problem was. But that said, I mean I don't agree with my mother on that. I, I think there and we're still seeing issues, you know, in terms of how women are treated in the workplace, I was very fortunate. I, you know, I didn't encounter any issues myself. Well, yeah, there there's, there's certainly, I, I would say there's some certainly some aspects of the old boys network and and you know men looking after themselves and it was harder for women to make their way, generally I think. Jonathan: Hmm, that's interesting. But you're saying your mother, you know, didn't really like the feminism movement? (14:18) L.M.: No, because she didn't. For, for her it was a non-issue, you know. You just get out there and you do it, you do what you want to do and that's that. And she, I mean. And she worked obviously in that era she was working in a very male environment but she was successful. So I think she, she wasn't overly sympathetic. She just. Jonathan: Yeah, that's. That is pretty interesting. I didn't really, you know I think. She's in the male dominated place, she should be, yeah, you know. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, I think it maybe it was that era that you just kind of accepted it, you know, I mean, you didn't really, I don't know. (15:01) Jonathan: Yeah, I guess that was true. You did just accept things. Is just how it is. L.M.: Yeah, yeah. Jonathan: OK. And then of course, you already said about the law and medical, but you know in U Ottawa the programs and departments were there places where women were like. Not accepted. You know, maybe like engineering. L.M.: Well, yeah, that's probably true- Jonathan: The big one? L.M.: -I think that I think, yeah, I don't think I knew any women in engineering so. Yeah, I think that's possible, but I wasn't really. I didn't. I wasn't really close to anybody in engineering review though either. So yeah, it's hard to say. Jonathan: But was there? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, maybe you knew any. Maybe you also knew any clubs or like, oh no, we don't like women in this club. L.M.: Yeah, I wasn't really. Jonathan: Into clubs? L.M.: I wasn't really into clubs, so yeah. (16:04) Jonathan: OK. And the next part, is about, uh, the general counterculture, which is basically all, you know, you don't really agree with the values your parents. You already said, uh, you know, you had a little bit of conflict with your mother over feminism? L.M.: Um, I, I. No, I wasn't conflicted with her. I, you know- Jonathan: But you just disagreed. L.M.: -I was inclined to agree with her. Pardon? Jonathan: Yeah. So you just disagreed? Never, no, really. Conflict. L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think at the time, I mean I, I would have, I would have disagreed later in life. I think at the time I just kind of accepted, um, you know, I thought she probably knew what she was talking about, and I didn't. I didn't expect to encounter any issues personally. And then I really never did so, but- Jonathan: So at the time you, you know, didn't really think about, you, you mostly agreed? (17:02) L.M.: Yeah, at that time, I didn't. Yeah, I at the time, I just assumed I was going to, you know, finish my degree and get a job and that that, that a Masters degree might might lead to an interesting job. And, and I always did have interesting jobs, whether the Masters degree contributed to I have no idea. Suddenly, the being bilingual did, being bilingual in Ottawa, was the big thing? Jonathan: Well, that's a big thing. Yeah, I'd like to think your Masters degree helps because I'm looking to get one after this. L.M.: Are you well good for you. What's your? What's your? Your field is history. Jonathan: Yeah, it's history. L.M.: Yeah, well, good for you. Jonathan: Well, thank you. L.M.: Yeah, no, I would encourage you to do that. Jonathan: I like to. I like to think that it was a big a big help. L.M.: Yeah, well, you know, I I do believe that that degrees in well in, in, the, the in history or you know English or social sciences that that that they're all I think they're all very useful because at the end of the day. (17:56) Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: At the end of the day, you need to be able to understand people. Whatever field you're in. So, and that's those studies help with that. Jonathan: Yeah, honestly, I just think a bachelor is one is one of those things that people don't like. So you have to have a masters, right? L.M.: Well, that's what. That's what I thought at the time too. And and you know, maybe I was right. As I say, I certainly, I certainly always ended up with interesting jobs. So. Jonathan: Ohh well I hope, I hope you are still right. L.M.: Yeah, for your sake, I hope I'm right too, I'm sure. Well, I'm sure if you're if you're in first year and you're props already asking you to do this kind of this kind of work, which you said usually only third and fourth year students do, that's that's a good sign. Jonathan: I hope it is, yeah. OK. And uh next part about these questions, OK, so uh, do you think that people maybe not yourself, but like people you knew maybe clashed in values with their parents? (19:07) L.M.: Yeah, I think I think to to some degree yeah. I mean I think that's, that's probably fairly normal with every generation though I would say. Jonathan: Yeah, that's true. L.M.: But because I mean, things do change and evolve and and, and it it may have been particularly true in the 70s. I mean, because of the feminist movement and because, you know, women were, had felt that they had more control of their bodies. They felt that they had, more, they were more likely to you know, to to get good jobs that they could do what they wanted. I mean, I think that was the thing. About feminism was that it started, you know that the, the gender roles were starting to break down. Which was a good. That, that, that. I think was the start of that. Jonathan: OK. But with that, do you know any, maybe, other women who were, like activists, may they participated in marches or protests and such? (20:22) L.M.: No, not particularly. Jonathan: Hmm. Were these sort of things rare in Ottawa? L.M.: I don't remember any, to be honest. You know, it's funny. I can remember things going on in Vancouver, but I don't remember, I don't remember Ottawa and, as I say, maybe I just hung out with people who were too studious, who were either. Jonathan: No time for activism. (21:02) L.M.: That's right. But yeah, I don't really remember. And it's it's weird because you'd think in Ottawa there would be but. But I don't know. Jonathan: Maybe they're all in, like a far off place. Not not near the university. Now that is interesting. L.M.: Well, maybe there are just so many Main Street because it's such a government town that it's government and engineering. I mean, so maybe maybe, the maybe the folks there were just more straight-laced. They they were part of, you know, they were at the power centre, so they didn't have to protest. Jonathan: Yeah, they they already did all the things. Yeah. Umm, well, usually just like out of town. People come to Ottawa. It's like, oh, you know, do some marches and protests. L.M.: Yeah, it certainly happens now, doesn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, it's pretty, it seems pretty common these days ugh. (21:57) L.M.: Yeah. But I don't remember that kind of thing happening in. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. But OK, looking back during that time, what aspect of Canadian society do you think was the most, you know or broken or just something that had to be dixed. I think you said something about, was it Western alienation? L.M.: Yeah, there was. Well, there was, there was Western alienation and there was the also the the focus on Quebec and trying to get Quebec to stay within Canada. That was certainly a big issue at the time. Jonathan: And it overshadowed like other issues that you thought were also very important. L.M.: Yeah, I think so. Jonathan: Yeah, were, any like specific maybe Western issues that you thought just was never addressed? L.M.: No, I think it was. It was just more feeling. You know, I don't know that there was anything specific I I think. There was a, you know, financial to some degree, I think there was a sense that that, that a lot of a lot of federal money went into Quebec to try to appease Quebec? And that the. (22:58) Jonathan: It was more feeling like you're just like second rate. OK. And similar to that, what do you think was the biggest forms of injustice during that time? I guess you can probably still answer Western alienation. L.M.: Yeah, and and also I mean, I do think even though as I say, my my mother didn't think it was an issue. I do think it was. There were still challenges with women in the workforce. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, you don't have anything more to say about that? (24:04) L.M.: Quebec, as I said, and and you know, Quebec separatism because I think I think most well, certainly the people I knew whether in BC or in Ontario did not want to see Quebec separate because of the feeling that it would be very disrupt, it would be very disruptive to the entire country. Jonathan: Yeah, definitely would’ve been. L.M.: So that as I say, that was probably. You know in Canada that was probably one of the the key issues at the time. Jonathan: The issues of the time, well, I guess all that federal money did pay off, Quebec voted to stay in, yeah. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. They're still with us. Jonathan: And last question about this, did you think the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the issues at the time? L.M.: I yeah, I think I did. Because I was a, I was a, you know, I was a student liberal at the time. And so I believed that the, the Liberal government was, you know, doing its best to address things. And also in the day I think politics were far more respectful. I mean, I remember having, I think I mentioned I was a teaching assistant and I remember one of my students worked on the Hill and worked for a, a Conservative MP, you know, and was talking about the, the genuine respect behind the scenes that you know that basically that all MP's had for one another because you know which, which is not, I don't think you see that to the same degree today, which is very distressing both in Canada and the US, well around the world. We seem to be getting more polarized. (25:01) Jonathan: That that is true, yeah. (26:04) L.M.: It is very disturbing. But you know at the time, I think at the time, I think government probably worked better than it does now. You know, I think we had a cabinet system that worked reasonably well, and, so yeah, at the time, I think I thought things were being reasonably well handled. Jonathan: OK, uh, the Prime Minister at times, that was Pierre Trudeau, right? L.M.: Right. Jonathan: Yeah, Pierre Trudeau, OK. So you thought it was, good. L.M.: I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I had a fair amount of respect for him. And I thought he was trying to do some, Some decent things. Jonathan: And even like government in general, the politics in general that they were better, better then than now? L.M.: The politics in general were much better than they are now, yes. I think, Trudeau senior was smarter than his son and cabinet government was more- (26:58) Jonathan: Competent? L.M.: -was more effective than. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Because over time there's just been more and more power concentrated in the, in the Prime Minister's office. Jonathan: OK. And now we're at the last part in 30 minutes. We've actually I think we might have spent more time talking the last time. L.M.: Yeah, we probably did, but- Jonathan: Yeah. Well, that's it. That's good, longer, longer, Interview is better for me. OK, OK. So the last part, historians again they say that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the, the free love Movement changed gender relations and dating in the 1970s. Do you agree with? L.M.: Yes. (28:05) Jonathan: Yes? Do you have anything more to add about that, like personal insight? L.M.: Well, no. Yeah, not personal insight necessarily, but just I think that it made. Well, for one thing, I mean it, it's part of what made it possible for women to be more involved in the in the workforce because they had, they had control over if or when they had kids. Because that was certainly, you know, in the beginning that was one of the, the challenges or the things that was was thrown up at women in terms of hiring women. You know, why would you do that? Because, you know, they'll just go off and have a family because that's what women were always supposed to do in the past. So, I think that, I think that did make a difference. Jonathan: OK. (29:02) L.M.: And, it probably also made a difference, I don't know whether this is true or not, I'm thinking that that women. And I never felt this, but, and I don't know whether some women felt that it, you know, they were more, it was easier to have kind of multiple relationships or, or people were more relaxed in terms of, you know, how soon, or whether they had sex in a in a relationship? Jonathan: No. Hmm. L.M.: I think there were that that would have that made a difference to women. Jonathan: OK. And about, you know, dating and stuff was what, a dating look like back then, eh? L.M.: What did dating look like? Jonathan: Yeah, it was, you know, just the same as now, you know? Yeah. You take your date, you go to dinner. L.M.: Well, I mean, I don't know, because I honestly, I don't know. I don't know anything about what dating looks like now. It looks like everybody just stares at their phones all the time. (29:57) Jonathan: Well, yeah. You, you do, you do that a lot, but you also, you know, go to restaurants, go to concerts, go to the yeah. L.M.: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good without your phone. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, without out phones, you gotta physically interact too. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that's still going on because yeah, that I mean, that's basically what I, certainly, I mean I remember, you know, going down to Quebec City to visit friends, I had friends who'd come out from Vancouver, and I was at you of all friends at Laval and, and, and yeah, and my boyfriend moved in. He was in Ottawa for, for a couple of years and then he moved to Montreal. He interned down there, so I went back and forth to so. But yeah, it was more, you know, going out with friends or just going out together, going to restaurant, maybe going to the theatre. Jonathan: Did you actually, did you maybe have like long phone calls or something with them? Maybe you know if you're far away. (31:03) L.M.: Yeah, we sometimes had long phone calls and we used to go. We used to go get together. We used to go hiking. I remember going, you know, with him and with other friends going, going on canoe trips in the summer that one of my friends organized. Jonathan: Yeah. That's too outdoors for me. L.M.: Yeah, that's way too outdoorsy for this survey, isn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, well. Probably depends on the person. I'm a, I'm a city person, so uh, I don't like going. L.M.: Yeah. So that doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably happening more and more and more, but. Jonathan: A lot more people live in cities. L.M.: But no, I enjoyed. Yeah, I enjoy the outdoors. I still do, not as. Anyway, yeah, because I used to go cross country skiing and I used to go downhill skiing too. When I was U of O, I was probably still doing more downhill, and then I got more into cross country. But yeah, no, I, I enjoy the outdoors. So yeah, I went hiking and. Jonathan: There’s skiing in Ottawa? (32:06) L.M.: Well, there's camp fortune. I don't know whether Camp Fortune still exists. I mean, it's not. Much of A ski. Can't forget it. Not much of a, you know for sure. I think it was called Camp Fortune. Yeah. Jonathan: It's still there. Ohh it's north of Gatineau. L.M.: Was up in the Gatineau yeah. Jonathan: But still close to Ottawa. L.M.: Yeah, that's right, because, that was the other thing. There was a fair amount of, you know, you know I had some friends who used to go over to, to Quebec to go drinking, you know, they'd go over to the Chaudiere(??). Was a, was a well known hang out. Jonathan: Because the legal age was lower? L.M.: A bit like. The, the hours were longer. Jonathan: Oh. Ah, you could drink more. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. Jonathan: I've never went drinking, so I wouldn't know about any of the sort of stuff. Do you think there's any, like maybe special things in the 1970s. Like something that just never happens again about dating or, you know, social life-ing? (32:55) L.M.: No, I mean, I think as I say, I think it was the beginning of a shift probably in terms of, of, of, of women feeling freer than they had in the past and you know able. Having more control of their lives. But that that has continued, like although there's now, there's folks in the states we may not, there's probably some nutbars here too, who want to close that down. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. L.M.: You know, some of the crazy Republicans who were trying to take control, take women's control away and ban abortion and ban birth control, which is that's I I, find that unbelievable that that people could be trying to take a step backwards at this point, but. Jonathan: Yeah, it's insane. It's been like, what, 50 years? (34:07) L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think they just it. I think it is some just really primarily just really conservative men who are just feeling threatened by everything they're threatened by, they're threatened by women, they're threatened by people of different races. I I don't know what their problem is, but they're they're. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think we dwelled a bit too much on that. Yeah, it's about the 1970s, not, not today. L.M.: Yeah. OK. Sorry. Yeah, no. But I think that was the beginning. I I don't, I wouldn't say that it's something that, you know that happened then that we never haven't seen again. But I think there were some significant shifts that happened then that are still carrying on in terms of. In terms of gender roles. Jonathan: OK, so there was a big social shift during that. (35:07) L.M.: Time, though I think there. Yeah, I think that was the beginning of a significant shift. Jonathan: But at the same time, it didn't really affect like what you'd actually do for, you know, fun and stuff. L.M.: No, I mean, I don't think my interests have shifted particularly you know, I mean I grew up interested in arts and theatre and and that, that, that still stuff today, you know, it was stuff I did then it was stuff I did before then, it's stuff I've done since then, you know, I'm, I'm still the the same person and I just carry on with my own interests. Jonathan: OK. Yeah, well, OK. And the final, final, final part. Uh, it's the stuff about sexual harassment and. OK, many universities today have been forced to, you know, heavily police sexual harassment. To what extent did the university maybe monitor social events or mixers back then because of sexual harassment? L.M.: I don't think at all. (36:14) Jonathan: Just not at all? L.M.: I don't think so. Jonathan: Was there any like, do you think there's, like a pamphlet like, oh, don’t, don't rape? Sorry. L.M.: I well. Yeah, I don't think that. I don't think that kind of thing was really coming to light at that point. I think that's been far more, recent that there are those. I mean, I think there were issues then, but I don't think I mean obviously based on what we know now, there's been a whole lot of bad behavior going on for a long time and it would have been going on then too, but it wasn't, it wasn't coming to light then. That's something that's happened more recently. Jonathan: But do you think the university viewed it as a problem or it's like, oh, this is just personal stuff? (37:05) L.M.: Yeah, I think they viewed it, I don't think they did view it as a problem, but I don't think it was, really on the radar I. Well, I shouldn't say that. I mean, obviously you know, if if, if a rape happened that people were worried about it, but. Jonathan: OK. OK. L.M.: But I don't. It's yeah. Jonathan: But the university didn't go out of its way to try to stop it. L.M.: No, there there was nothing proactive at the time with respect to- Jonathan: OK. L.M.: -to to rape. To to those issues that's I guess that's how I'd have. To put it. Jonathan: Alright. And oh, actually miss something for the final thing, the final thing is about sexuality and harassment. Sorry. And so the last two questions. Because the specific uh, the project is, there's a lot of interest in the free love stuff. So what was the perception of premarital sex? Do you think it was you know, accepted, or is it not accepted? Or- (37:49) L.M.: Yeah, it was that that I'd. Say that was a a difference between like my parents generation and my generation is that that premarital sex from from in my generation like in the 70s, that was, that was pretty much accepted and I don't think it was in previous generations. And I I think, yeah, I think it was accepted in the 70s because of the availability of birth control. Jonathan: OK. Do you think? But do you think maybe it was even encouraged, like people like, because of birth control, let's have a lot of sex? L.M.: I think it was probably far, it was more, there were more people engaging in in sexual activity than when than in my parents' generation, probably, yeah. (38:58) Jonathan: OK. And with your parents, did your parents or like other people's parents, worry about that sort of things, like, oh, “don't have premarital sex.” They ever maybe tell you or tell you? L.M.: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that would have been as I, I mean I never discussed sex with my parents. We never had that conversation- Jonathan: Ah yeah. L.M.: -but I do remember, you know there at at some point it it came up because I mean, as I said, I used to go camping with my boyfriend. And stuff and so. So I think my, you know, my parents were probably worried about what might be going on and, you know. If that concerned them, they were right to be worried, but we never talked about it and and, you know- Jonathan: So you never knew if they were like- (39:57) L.M.: -I was using birth control, so I it was, you know, to me that that seemed to be a natural thing to be doing at that age. For my parents, it probably wouldn't have been and they would, would have preferred that my behavior emulated theirs, but it was a different era. So. Jonathan: Hmm, that yeah, well that's the same now you know. My parents, they won't me to be more like them, yeah. L.M.: Sure. Yeah, I think that's I think I think that's the expectation of parents because you know that's what they know, and so it's they, they're. People always seem to find change difficult. Jonathan: Yeah, that is true. Well, that's actually all the questions. Alright, alright, perfect. L.M.: All right. Well, I hope this has worked this time and uh- Jonathan: Yeah, I really hope to. Ugh. L.M.: -Yeah. Yeah, sorry you got stuck with a, with a subject who's not not, not, outside of the norm of what the project's looking for. Jonathan: Well, to be fair, I think I think you're a lot closer than some of the other people because, apparently a lot of other students had trouble even contacting the, the first person they were given. (41:04) L.M.: Oh, is that right? Jonathan: Yeah. And apparently because there was so much problems that the teacher just like, oh, “do you know anyone who went to school in the 1970s?” Yes, anyone. Basically it's like OK, you ask your own parents if they if they went to like university then so I think you are a lot closer to what they expected. L.M.: You know how? Yeah. Do you know how they they came up with the list? Like how did they, how did they. Jonathan: The list of people? L.M.: Yeah, the list of the list of contacts that that you were working with. Jonathan: I have no idea. I just know the the teacher like you know that he contacted a lot of people. How how did how do you reach you? L.M.: Well, interestingly in my case I wasn't reached directly, but but in the the the reaching there was a a, a friend of mine who was the only other anglophone in the program that I was in at U of O and the masters program and and, for some reason, he was on the list and and then he forwarded it to me saying, you know, in case I was interested, he figured I'd probably received it too, since he received it, but I hadn't. And so that's why I was curious because I thought, well, I have given money to U of O, I'm still on, you know, still get bumped from U of O. (41:57) Jonathan: Ohh. L.M.: But I didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't on their their list, so I was curious as to how they managed to. Because I mean, it shouldn't be. Jonathan: All right. I think with you specifically is that uh, you graduated, uh, 1976, right? L.M.: Correct. Jonathan: They like initially if I remember very correctly they wanted the people who graduated in 1974. (42:58) L.M.: Right, yeah. Jonathan: That's a bit weird, and yeah, you were just, like, just off from the list. L.M.: That's right. I think we were kind of at the end of the wave. I mean, I think in many ways a lot of the really exciting stuff was happening in the late 60s. And so that's when that's when these, you know, a lot of these ideas were more, new if you like. That's, yeah. So we were, we were kind of at the end of. Jonathan: OK, remember, I think he said he just he went to yearbooks and like the university database or something and just contacted people's emails just gave like everyone an e-mail and see who responded. L.M.: OK. Yeah. Yeah, because that would be the challenge. I mean, you have the list of who graduated, but you have no idea where they are now, so. But but I still don't understand why I wouldn't have been contacted because, well, maybe it's as you say, it's just mind you, my, my friend who was we were there at the same time we were there for the same. We were both there from 74 to 76. We were there at the same two years, so I'm not quite sure why they would have found him and not me. Jonathan: Yeah, I think it really is. Maybe he just he just missed you. Yeah, you know he. Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's how it is. (44:03) L.M.: Well, anyway, well, I I. Like, I hope that you're you and your friends. How many people have you had to interview? Jonathan: Uh, no, just you. There was. I had another person, but he said he was too busy to work with. L.M.: OK. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, honestly, I think I'm very lucky that you responded, yeah. L.M.: Well, it It probably comes from my my teaching assistant experience. I have sympathy for students. Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: You're welcome, and I wish you the best of luck with your studies. Jonathan: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for for doing this again. L.M.: You're welcome. (45:02) Jonathan: Yeah. Have a great day. L.M.: You too. Bye now. Jonathan: Yeah. Thank you. Bye. (45:05) Transcription Translation Jonathan : Euh, bonjour ? (00:00:19) L.M. : Bonjour ? Jonathan : Bonjour, L. C'est bien L.? L.M. : Oui. Est-ce que vous m'entendez ? Jonathan : Oui, je vous entends. L.M. : D'accord, c'est bien. Jonathan : OK. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. Je n'arrive pas à y croire. La dernière fois, on n'a rien enregistré. Euh. L.M. : Oui, c'est dommage. Mais nous allons réessayer. Jonathan : Oui, nous allons réessayer. Merci. Merci beaucoup pour cela, L.M. : De rien. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Nous sommes le 24 octobre. Commençons l'interview. Je vais passer en revue toutes les questions dans l'ordre cette fois-ci. D'ACCORD. La première question porte sur la culture populaire de l'époque : "Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment occupiez-vous votre temps libre ?", ou que faisiez-vous pour vous amuser ? L.M. : J'allais nager à la piscine de l'Université d'Ottawa. J'allais patiner sur le canal. J'allais au Centre national d'art et à la Galerie nationale et j'allais au restaurant ou au pub avec des amis. (1:19) Jonathan : OK et, euh, est-ce que ces restaurants, ces pubs étaient les endroits les plus populaires ? L.M. : Euh, non. J'avais l'habitude d'aller dans un bon restaurant indien avec mon petit ami qui se trouvait sur Nam. C'était près de l'université et il y avait une crêperie sur la rue Rideau et Nate's Delicatessen. Oui, c'était bien. Mais oui, je suppose qu'ils étaient assez populaires. Je ne sais pas. (01:52) Jonathan : Mais connaissiez-vous des endroits super populaires ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? D'accord, alors. Hmm. Eh bien, oui, c'est ça, je suppose. Quoi qu'il en soit, vous écoutez... L.M. : C'est vrai, je suis. Je ne le suis pas vraiment. Je n'entre pas vraiment dans le moule de ce que ce projet essaie de faire, je pense en tout cas. Jonathan : Oui, c'est ça. L'étudiant super moyen, je suppose. Vous écoutez beaucoup de musique pendant ce temps, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Oui, j'écoute surtout de la musique folk. Jonathan : Oui, bonjour. Folk et classique, avez-vous dit la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, le folk et le classique. Mais j'écoute, vous savez, j'écoute Joan Baez. C'est ce qu'elle aurait été. Elle était populaire à l'époque parce qu'elle était certainement une activiste politique. Jonathan : Oh, mais... (3:03) L.M. : Voilà. Jonathan : En ce qui concerne la musique, avez-vous assisté à des concerts de musique en direct ? L.M. : Eh bien, comme je l'ai dit, oui, un peu de classique au centre des arts. J'ai assisté à quelques spectacles à Montréal, je suis allé à Montréal et j'ai entendu Gilles Vigneault et Michel Fugain. Au Centre d'art de Montréal. Jonathan : Oui, les Arts à Montréal. Bon sang. Honnêtement, je ne connais aucun de ces noms. L.M. : Ce n'est pas surprenant. Ils sont francophones, d'une part, donc leur culture ne vous est probablement pas familière, et ils datent des années 70. Jonathan : Oui, depuis longtemps. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Alors vous voulez m'entendre dire des choses comme, oh, oui, je suis allé voir les Rolling Stones et le Grateful Dead et... Jonathan : Eh bien, ce serait beaucoup plus pratique si vous le faisiez. L.M. : Il y aurait des cases à cocher. (4:00) Jonathan : Oui, et c'est beaucoup plus facile de tout écrire. Ohh. Ok, donc la partie suivante "nous utilisons le terme culture de la fête pour décrire certaines universités". Comment décririez-vous la "culture du parti" à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Eh bien, je n'étais pas particulièrement au courant. Je ne sais pas si c'était dans le coin, il y avait des soirées dansantes la première année où j'étais en résidence et il y avait souvent des soirées dans la résidence à côté de la mienne où j'allais parfois. Jonathan : Umm, mais c'était juste pour danser. Il ne s'est rien passé d'autre. L.M. : Oui, c'est juste de la danse. Non, c'était juste de la danse. Ils avaient, vous savez, de la musique enregistrée et il y avait de la danse. Jonathan : Oh. Tu es allé les voir ? L.M. : Est-ce que je suis allé, est-ce que je suis allé danser là-bas ? Oui. Jonathan : Oui. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? "C'est de la danse organisée, ou c'est comme, tu sais, tu te secoues, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M. : Oui, secouons-nous en dansant. C'est ça. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et euh, que pensait le corps étudiant ou vous-même de la guerre du Vietnam ? L.M. : Eh bien, je ne l'étais pas. Je n'étais pas pour, évidemment. C'est vrai. C'était certainement troublant à l'époque. Comme dans toute guerre, il y avait beaucoup de gens qui étaient tués inutilement. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm. Mais. Est-ce que tu penses qu'il y a une, la... L.M. : Non. Il n'y a pas eu beaucoup de discussions à ce sujet, vous savez, dans, vous savez, certainement parmi les étudiants. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que le consensus général était que la plupart des gens, n'étaient pas, n'aimaient pas vraiment ça. Ils étaient plutôt contre ? (5:53) L.M. : Oui, je pense que la plupart des gens l'étaient. Je veux dire, et certainement le Canada, vous savez, nous nous sommes retrouvés avec beaucoup de Dodgers de la guerre. Je crois que je l'ai déjà mentionné. J'étais certainement conscient qu'il y avait des jeunes hommes qui venaient ici parce qu'ils ne croyaient pas à la guerre. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm, avez-vous personnellement vu, rencontré des réfractaires ? L.M. : Non, pas que je me souvienne. Jonathan : Très bien. Le prochain sujet est le rock'n'roll. Je sais que vous n'en écoutiez pas beaucoup. Mais est-ce que vous, ou peut-être vos parents, avez des opinions sur le rock'n'roll ? Est-ce que vous le considérez comme de la " musique du diable " ? L.M. : Non, je veux dire que c'était certainement une musique tout à fait acceptable pour les jeunes de l'époque, je n'avais rien contre. C'est juste que ce n'était pas quelque chose que j'écoutais beaucoup personnellement. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais et vos. Est-ce que vos parents avaient un avis sur la question ? (6:59) L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Hmm, OK. D'accord et... L.M. : Je veux dire que je... Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : -Oui. Jonathan : OK. L.M. : Je veux dire, j'ai certainement, j'ai certainement entendu ça. Je veux dire que j'ai entendu les Beatles, j'ai entendu les Stone, j'ai entendu I. Vous savez, si, si des enfants faisaient une fête, c'est le genre de musique qu'on mettrait, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Ah. C'était donc encore populaire. L.M. : Certainement que maintenant, j'y vais. Vous savez, je reviens à l'époque de l'UBC. Je pense que. Je pense qu'une partie de la différence avec l'Université de l'Ontario est que j'étais un étudiant diplômé, vous savez, et je traînais avec des étudiants en médecine et, et ils étaient tous assez sérieux. Vous savez, ils devaient passer par l'école de médecine et ainsi de suite. Jonathan : Oui, les étudiants en licence sont, oui. Beaucoup plus détendus. L.M. : Oui. Tout à fait. Je veux dire, ils sont plus jeunes et ils sont, vous savez, ils sont là pour beaucoup d'entre eux. C'est un peu leur chance, leur chance de s'éloigner de la maison, etc. Jonathan : Amusez-vous bien, oui. D'ACCORD. Et bien sûr, les années 1970. Il y avait beaucoup de drogues à l'époque. Dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou consommées sur le campus ? (8:02) L.M. : Je ne sais pas vraiment parce que je ne les utilisais pas personnellement. Vous savez, je suis sûre qu'il y en avait. Je suis sûr qu'ils étaient disponibles. Ils sont disponibles partout, depuis des années. Ils l'ont toujours été et le seront toujours. Jonathan : C'est vrai. Mais, hmm, est-ce que tu as connu beaucoup de toxicomanes, comme des gens qui fumaient de la marijuana ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? L.M. : Je veux dire, oui, eh bien, c'est, oui. Non, c'est certain. Je connaissais certainement. J'en connaissais certains, je pense, parce que je connaissais un gars qui était, vous savez, qui était allé à l'école secondaire à Ottawa. Alors il... Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Je dirais donc que, oui, c'était bel et bien présent. J'étais au courant. Des gens qui l'utilisaient. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous aussi que c'était courant ? (9:04) L.M. : Oui, bien sûr, c'était courant. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Dernière chose à propos des drogues. Pensez-vous que beaucoup d'étudiants ont consommé des hallucinogènes ? Ou des drogues psychédéliques aussi. L.M. : Oui, je n'en ai aucune idée. En tout cas, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que mes amis étaient particuliers. Je veux dire, les gens que je connaissais n'étaient pas intéressés, mais... Encore une fois, j'en suis sûre. Ils étaient là. Je sais qu'ils étaient là. Jonathan : Mais ce n'était pas si courant que ça, vous connaissiez quelqu'un qui l'utilisait ? L.M. : Oui, ce n'était certainement pas très courant parmi les étudiants en médecine. Jonathan : Oh oui, les étudiants en médecine en sauraient-ils beaucoup plus sur les médicaments ? L.M. : Oh, ils en savaient probablement un peu plus, mais pas moi. Je n'en suis pas nécessairement la cause parce que je ne pense pas qu'aucun d'entre eux l'était. Ils en savaient probablement assez pour ne pas les utiliser. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. C'est ainsi que se termine la première partie sur la culture pop. Les historiens parlent du féminisme de la deuxième vague comme faisant partie du mouvement général de la contre-culture dans les années 1970. Il est dit que... (9:57) L.M. : En quoi cela a-t-il été la deuxième vague ? Quand a eu lieu la première vague ? Ont-ils parlé de la première vague ? Jonathan : C'était au. Je pense que c'était au début des années 1900, lorsque les femmes ont obtenu le droit de vote. L.M. : Oh, d'accord. D'accord. La deuxième vague, c'est ce qui se passe dans les années 70, d'accord ? Jonathan : Oui. Il est dit que dans les années 1970, les femmes se sont efforcées de faire tomber les barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que c'est le cas ? Cette description correspond-elle à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Jonathan : Oui ? Y a-t-il une chose spécifique que vous pouvez décrire ? L.M. : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'ai fini par connaître beaucoup d'étudiants en médecine, mes colocataires étaient des étudiants en médecine. Il y avait probablement plus de femmes, et puis j'en ai eu une pendant un certain temps qui était aussi étudiante en droit, donc il y avait certainement plus de femmes. Il y avait donc certainement plus de femmes que par le passé qui accédaient aux professions libérales à cette époque. (10:53) Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, voilà. Oui, c'est ça. OK. L.M. : Il y en avait plus. Il y avait plus de femmes à l'université et plus de femmes. Il y avait certainement plus de femmes dans les professions libérales, en particulier en droit et en médecine. J'en ai certainement vu plus. Oui, il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes dans ces domaines. Je pense qu'il a fallu un certain temps pour qu'elles y aillent, vous savez. Et maintenant, on en voit plus dans l'ingénierie aussi, c'était plus long, c'était plus long à venir. Mais comme je l'ai dit à mon époque. Il y avait, je pense que c'était vraiment le début de, vous savez, voir beaucoup de femmes en médecine et en droit. Jonathan : OK, donc la médecine et le droit, vous avez dit que pour vous, c'était le grand, comme beaucoup de femmes l'ont fait. Je ne peux pas vraiment décrire cela. Je ne sais pas vraiment comment le décrire. OK, euh, qu'est-ce que le féminisme ? Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait pour vous à l'époque ? Ou peut-être que vous... (11:55) L.M. : Oui, comme je pense que je... Jonathan : Oui, je crois que vous avez déjà répondu à cette question. L.M. : Oui, parce que ma mère était professeur d'université et qu'elle avait une longueur d'avance. C'est vrai. Pour moi, le fait d'avoir une, mais je sais certainement qu'en tant qu'enfant, j'étais la seule, vous savez, j'étais la seule femme. J'étais la seule femme, la seule personne de mon école primaire dont la mère travaillait. Elle travaillait, je pense, et vous savez, et c'était probablement à peu près la même chose jusqu'à, jusqu'au lycée, bien que les choses aient peut-être commencé à changer à ce moment-là, il y avait peut-être quelques femmes, vous savez, qui travaillaient parce que leurs enfants étaient à l'école. Mais c'était certainement moins courant, mais pour moi. J'ai toujours pensé que j'irais à l'université et que je travaillerais parce que c'était, vous savez, avec ma mère comme modèle, ce que je pensais faire. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Donc je suppose que vous appelleriez votre, votre mère, un modèle féministe ? (13:16) L.M. : Elle ne s'appellerait certainement pas comme ça. Vous savez, autant que la première. Les femmes qui avaient réussi professionnellement avaient tendance à bouder le mouvement féministe parce que, vous savez, elles avaient fait leur propre chemin. Elles ne pouvaient donc pas comprendre quel était le problème des autres. Cela dit, je ne suis pas d'accord avec ma mère sur ce point. Je pense qu'il y a des problèmes, et il y en a encore, sur la façon dont les femmes sont traitées sur le lieu de travail, mais j'ai eu beaucoup de chance. Je n'ai pas rencontré de problèmes moi-même. Eh bien, oui, il y a, il y a certainement, je, je dirais qu'il y a certainement certains aspects du réseau des vieux garçons et vous savez les hommes qui s'occupent d'eux-mêmes et il était plus difficile pour les femmes de se frayer un chemin, généralement je pense. Jonathan : Hmm, c'est intéressant. Mais vous dites que votre mère n'aimait pas vraiment le mouvement féministe ? (14:18) L.M. : Non, parce qu'elle ne l'a pas fait. Pour elle, ce n'était pas un problème, vous savez. Il suffit d'y aller et de le faire, de faire ce que l'on veut faire et c'est tout. Et elle, je veux dire. Et elle travaillait évidemment à cette époque dans un environnement très masculin, mais elle a réussi. Je pense donc qu'elle n'était pas trop compatissante. Elle était juste. Jonathan : Oui, c'est. C'est très intéressant. Je n'avais pas vraiment, vous savez, je pense. Elle est dans un endroit dominé par les hommes, elle devrait l'être, oui, vous savez. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, oui. Je pense que c'est peut-être à cette époque qu'on l'a accepté, on ne l'a pas vraiment accepté, je ne sais pas. (15:01) Jonathan : Oui, je suppose que c'était vrai. Vous avez accepté les choses. C'est comme ça. L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et puis bien sûr, vous avez déjà parlé du droit et de la médecine, mais vous savez, à U Ottawa, les programmes et les départements étaient des endroits où les femmes n'étaient pas acceptées. Pas acceptées. Vous savez, peut-être comme l'ingénierie. L.M. : Eh bien, oui, c'est probablement vrai... Jonathan : Le plus gros ? L.M. : -Je pense que je pense, oui, je ne pense pas que je connaissais des femmes dans l'ingénierie. Oui, je pense que c'est possible, mais je ne l'étais pas vraiment. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas vraiment proche de quelqu'un dans la revue d'ingénierie non plus. Alors oui, c'est difficile à dire. Jonathan : Mais y en avait-il ? Oui. Oui. Mais tu sais, peut-être que tu en connaissais. Peut-être que vous connaissiez aussi des clubs ou comme, oh non, on n'aime pas les femmes dans ce club. L.M. : Oui, pas vraiment. Jonathan : Dans les clubs ? L.M. : Je n'aimais pas vraiment les clubs, alors oui. (16:04) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et la partie suivante, c'est sur, euh, la contre-culture en général, qui est en fait tout, vous savez, vous n'êtes pas vraiment d'accord avec les valeurs de vos parents. Vous avez déjà dit, euh, vous savez, vous avez eu un petit conflit avec votre mère à propos du féminisme ? L.M. : Euh, je, je. Non, je n'étais pas en conflit avec elle. Je, vous savez... Jonathan : Mais vous n'étiez pas d'accord. L.M. : -J'étais enclin à être d'accord avec elle. Pardon ? Jonathan : Oui. Vous n'étiez donc pas d'accord ? Jamais, non, vraiment. Conflit. L.M. : Oui. Eh bien, je pense qu'à l'époque, je veux dire que j'aurais, j'aurais été en désaccord plus tard dans la vie. Je pense qu'à l'époque, j'ai juste accepté, hum, vous savez, je pensais qu'elle savait probablement de quoi elle parlait, et je ne le savais pas. Je ne m'attendais pas à rencontrer des problèmes personnels. Et cela n'a jamais été le cas, mais... Jonathan : Donc à l'époque vous, vous savez, vous n'avez pas vraiment réfléchi, vous, vous étiez plutôt d'accord ? (17:02) L.M. : Oui, à l'époque, je ne le savais pas. Oui, à l'époque, je pensais simplement que j'allais, vous savez, terminer mon diplôme et trouver un emploi et que ce, qu'un master pourrait conduire à un emploi intéressant. Et, et j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants, je ne sais pas si le master y a contribué. Soudain, le fait d'être bilingue, d'être bilingue à Ottawa, c'était la grande affaire ? Jonathan : C'est une chose importante. Oui, j'aime à penser que votre maîtrise vous aide parce que j'envisage d'en obtenir une après cela. L.M. : Vous allez bien, c'est bien pour vous. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Quel est le vôtre ? Votre domaine est l'histoire. Jonathan : Oui, c'est de l'histoire ancienne. L.M. : Oui, tant mieux pour vous. Jonathan : Merci. L.M. : Oui, non, je vous encourage à le faire. Jonathan : J'aime bien. J'aime à penser que cela a été d'une grande aide. L.M. : Oui, vous savez, je crois que les diplômes en histoire, en anglais ou en sciences sociales sont tous très utiles parce qu'en fin de compte. (17:56) Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : En fin de compte, il faut être capable de comprendre les gens. Quel que soit le domaine dans lequel on travaille. C'est pourquoi les études aident à cela. Jonathan : Oui, honnêtement, je pense qu'une licence est l'une de ces choses que les gens n'aiment pas. Il faut donc avoir un master, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Eh bien, c'est ce que je pensais à l'époque. C'est ce que je pensais aussi à l'époque. Et vous savez, j'avais peut-être raison. Comme je l'ai dit, j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants. Donc. Jonathan : J'espère que vous avez toujours raison. L.M. : Oui, pour vous, j'espère que j'ai raison aussi, j'en suis sûre. Je suis sûr que si vous êtes en première année et que vous êtes déjà en train de faire ce genre de travail, ce que vous avez dit que seuls les étudiants de troisième et quatrième année font habituellement, c'est un bon signe. Jonathan : J'espère que oui. D'ACCORD. Et euh, la prochaine partie de ces questions, OK, donc euh, pensez-vous que les gens, peut-être pas vous-même, mais comme les gens que vous avez connus, ont peut-être des valeurs différentes de celles de leurs parents ? (19:07) L.M. : Oui, je pense que dans une certaine mesure, oui. Je veux dire que je pense que c'est, c'est probablement assez normal pour chaque génération, je dirais. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. L.M. : Mais parce que je veux dire, les choses changent et évoluent et, et c'était peut-être particulièrement vrai dans les années 70. Je veux dire, à cause du mouvement féministe et parce que, vous savez, les femmes avaient, avaient le sentiment de mieux contrôler leur corps. Elles pensaient qu'elles avaient plus de chances d'obtenir de bons emplois et de pouvoir faire ce qu'elles voulaient. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était ça le truc. Le féminisme a commencé à briser les rôles attribués aux hommes et aux femmes, ce qui était une bonne chose. Ce qui était une bonne chose. C'est, c'est, c'est. Je pense que c'était le début. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais à ce propos, connaissez-vous d'autres femmes qui étaient des activistes, qui ont participé à des marches ou à des protestations ? (20:22) L.M. : Non, pas particulièrement. Jonathan : Hmm. Ce genre de choses était-il rare à Ottawa ? L.M. : Je ne m'en souviens pas, pour être honnête. Vous savez, c'est amusant. Je me souviens de choses qui se passaient à Vancouver, mais je ne me souviens pas, je ne me souviens pas d'Ottawa et, comme je l'ai dit, peut-être que je traînais simplement avec des gens qui étaient trop studieux, qui étaient soit. Jonathan : Pas de temps pour l'activisme. (21:02) L.M. : C'est exact. Mais oui, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Et c'est bizarre parce qu'on pourrait penser qu'à Ottawa, il y aurait des mais. Mais je ne sais pas. Jonathan : Peut-être qu'ils sont tous dans un endroit très éloigné. Pas près de l'université. C'est intéressant. L.M. : Peut-être qu'il y a tellement de Main Street parce que c'est une ville tellement gouvernementale que c'est le gouvernement et l'ingénierie. Je veux dire, alors peut-être que les gens là-bas étaient plus droits. Ils faisaient partie, vous savez, ils étaient au centre du pouvoir, donc ils n'avaient pas à protester. Jonathan : Oui, ils ont déjà fait toutes les choses. Oui. Umm, eh bien, d'habitude, c'est comme à l'extérieur de la ville. Les gens viennent à Ottawa. C'est comme, oh, vous savez, faire des marches et des protestations. L.M. : Oui, c'est certainement le cas aujourd'hui, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, c'est assez, ça semble assez courant de nos jours ugh. (21:57) L.M. : Oui. Mais je ne me souviens pas que ce genre de choses se soit produit à... Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Mais d'accord, en regardant en arrière pendant cette période, quel aspect de la société canadienne était le plus, vous savez, cassé ou juste quelque chose qui devait être désinfecté. Je crois que vous avez parlé de l'aliénation de l'Occident. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Eh bien, il y avait l'aliénation de l'Ouest et il y avait aussi l'accent mis sur le Québec et la tentative de faire en sorte que le Québec reste au sein du Canada. C'était certainement une question importante à l'époque. Jonathan : Et cela a éclipsé d'autres questions que vous jugiez également très importantes. L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Jonathan : Ouais, est-ce qu'il y a eu des problèmes spécifiques à l'Ouest qui n'ont jamais été abordés ? L.M. : Non, je pense que oui. C'était juste plus un sentiment. Je ne sais pas s'il y avait quelque chose de spécifique. Il y avait un sentiment, vous savez, financier dans une certaine mesure, je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment que, que beaucoup d'argent fédéral allait au Québec pour essayer d'apaiser le Québec... Et que le... (22:58). Et que le (22:58) Jonathan : C'est plutôt le sentiment d'être une personne de seconde zone. D'ACCORD. Dans le même ordre d'idées, quelles étaient, selon vous, les plus grandes formes d'injustice à cette époque ? Je pense que vous pouvez toujours répondre à la question de l'aliénation occidentale. L.M. : Oui, et aussi, je veux dire, je pense que même si, comme je l'ai dit, ma mère ne pensait pas que c'était un problème. Je pense que c'était le cas. Il y avait encore des problèmes avec les femmes sur le marché du travail. Jonathan : Oui. Bon, vous n'avez rien d'autre à dire à ce sujet ? (24:04) L.M. : Le Québec, comme je l'ai dit, et vous savez, le séparatisme québécois parce que je pense que la plupart des gens, certainement les gens que je connaissais, que ce soit en Colombie-Britannique ou en Ontario, ne voulaient pas que le Québec se sépare parce qu'ils avaient le sentiment que cela perturberait beaucoup l'ensemble du pays. Jonathan : Oui, certainement. L.M. : Comme je l'ai dit, c'était probablement le cas. Vous savez, au Canada, c'était probablement l'une des principales questions à l'époque. Jonathan : Les enjeux de l'époque, eh bien, je suppose que tout cet argent fédéral a porté ses fruits, le Québec a voté pour rester dans le groupe, oui. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Ils sont toujours avec nous. Jonathan : Et dernière question à ce sujet, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et adapté aux problèmes de l'époque ? L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Parce que j'étais, vous savez, j'étais un étudiant libéral à l'époque. Je pensais donc que le gouvernement libéral faisait de son mieux pour régler les problèmes. De plus, à l'époque, je pense que la politique était beaucoup plus respectueuse. Je me souviens d'avoir eu, je crois que j'ai mentionné que j'étais assistant d'enseignement et je me souviens que l'un de mes étudiants travaillait sur la Colline et travaillait pour un député conservateur, vous savez, et il parlait du, du véritable respect en coulisses que vous savez, que tous les députés avaient les uns pour les autres parce que vous savez, ce qui n'est pas, je ne pense pas que vous voyez cela au même degré aujourd'hui, ce qui est très affligeant à la fois au Canada et aux États-Unis, ainsi que dans le monde entier. Il semble que nous soyons de plus en plus polarisés. (25:01) Jonathan : C'est vrai, oui. (26:04) L.M. : C'est très inquiétant. Mais vous savez, à l'époque, je pense que le gouvernement fonctionnait probablement mieux qu'aujourd'hui. Je pense que nous avions un système de cabinet qui fonctionnait raisonnablement bien, et donc oui, à l'époque, je pensais que les choses étaient raisonnablement bien gérées. Jonathan : OK, euh, le premier ministre à certains moments, c'était Pierre Trudeau, c'est ça ? L.M. : Oui. Jonathan : Oui, Pierre Trudeau, OK. Vous avez donc pensé que c'était bien. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais pas mal de respect pour lui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais un certain respect pour lui. Et je pensais qu'il essayait de faire des choses décentes. Jonathan : Et même comme le gouvernement en général, la politique en général, c'était mieux, mieux à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui ? L.M. : La politique en général était bien meilleure qu'aujourd'hui, oui. Je pense que Trudeau père était plus intelligent que son fils et que le gouvernement était plus... (26:58) Jonathan : Compétent ? L.M. : -était plus efficace que. Oui, c'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Parce qu'au fil du temps, il y a eu de plus en plus de pouvoir concentré dans le bureau du Premier ministre. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Nous en sommes maintenant à la dernière partie, dans 30 minutes. En fait, je pense que nous avons passé plus de temps à parler la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, probablement, mais... Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, c'est tout. C'est bien, plus long, plus long, Entretien c'est mieux pour moi. D'ACCORD, D'ACCORD. Pour finir, les historiens disent que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et le mouvement de l'amour libre ont changé les relations entre les hommes et les femmes dans les années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord ? L.M. : Oui (28:05) Jonathan : Oui ? Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter à ce sujet, comme un point de vue personnel ? L.M. : Eh bien, non. Oui, ce n'est pas nécessairement un point de vue personnel, mais je pense que cela a permis. D'abord, c'est en partie ce qui a permis aux femmes de s'impliquer davantage dans le monde du travail, parce qu'elles pouvaient décider si elles avaient des enfants ou quand elles en auraient. Parce que c'était certainement, vous savez, au début, l'un des défis ou l'une des choses que l'on lançait aux femmes en termes d'embauche. Vous savez, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Parce que, vous savez, elles vont juste partir et fonder une famille parce que c'est ce que les femmes étaient toujours censées faire dans le passé. Je pense donc que cela a fait une différence. Jonathan : OK. (29:02) L.M. : Et, cela a probablement aussi fait une différence, je ne sais pas si c'est vrai ou non, je pense que les femmes. Je n'ai jamais ressenti cela, mais je ne sais pas si certaines femmes ont eu l'impression qu'il était plus facile d'avoir des relations multiples ou si les gens étaient plus détendus en ce qui concerne la fréquence ou l'opportunité des rapports sexuels au sein d'une relation. Jonathan : Non. L.M. : Je pense qu'il y en a eu qui auraient fait la différence pour les femmes. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et à propos de, vous savez, les rencontres et tout ça, à quoi ressemblait une rencontre à l'époque, hein ? L.M. : À quoi ressemblaient les rendez-vous ? Jonathan : Oui, c'était la même chose qu'aujourd'hui. Oui, c'est vrai. Vous prenez votre rendez-vous, vous allez dîner. L.M. : Eh bien, je veux dire, je ne sais pas, parce qu'honnêtement, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais rien de ce à quoi ressemblent les rencontres aujourd'hui. On dirait que tout le monde regarde son téléphone tout le temps. (29:57) Jonathan : Eh bien, oui. Vous, vous faites, vous faites ça beaucoup, mais vous allez aussi, vous savez, au restaurant, au concert, au théâtre, etc. L.M. : Oui, c'est bien. C'est bien sans ton téléphone. Jonathan : Oui. Sans téléphone, il faut aussi interagir physiquement. L.M. : Oui. Oui. Je suis contente d'entendre que ça continue parce que oui, c'est en gros ce que j'ai fait, certainement, je me souviens d'être allée à Québec pour rendre visite à des amis, j'avais des amis qui étaient venus de Vancouver, et j'étais à Laval, et, et, et oui, et mon petit ami a emménagé. Il a vécu à Ottawa pendant quelques années, puis il a déménagé à Montréal. Il a fait un stage là-bas, alors j'ai fait des allers-retours. Mais oui, c'était plus, vous savez, sortir avec des amis ou juste sortir ensemble, aller au restaurant, peut-être aller au théâtre. Jonathan : Est-ce que vous avez eu de longs appels téléphoniques avec eux ? Peut-être que si vous êtes loin, vous savez. (31:03) L.M. : Oui, nous avions parfois de longs appels téléphoniques et nous avions l'habitude d'y aller. Nous avions l'habitude de nous retrouver. Nous faisions des randonnées. Je me souviens d'avoir fait, avec lui et d'autres amis, des excursions en canoë pendant l'été, organisées par l'un de mes amis. Jonathan : Oui. C'est trop à l'extérieur pour moi. L.M. : Oui, c'est beaucoup trop extérieur pour cette enquête, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, eh bien. Cela dépend probablement de la personne. Je suis un citadin, donc je n'aime pas y aller. L.M. : Oui. Ce n'est donc pas le cas. Oui. Oui. Je pense que c'est probablement ce qui se passe de plus en plus, mais... Jonathan : Beaucoup plus de gens vivent dans les villes. L.M. : Mais non, j'ai aimé. Oui, j'aime le plein air. C'est toujours le cas, mais pas autant. En tout cas, oui, parce que j'avais l'habitude de faire du ski de fond et du ski alpin. Quand j'étais à l'Université de l'Ontario, je faisais probablement encore plus de ski alpin, puis j'ai commencé à faire du ski de fond. Mais oui, non, j'aime le plein air. Alors oui, j'ai fait de la randonnée et... Jonathan : Il y a du ski à Ottawa ? (32:06) L.M. : Eh bien, il y a le camp fortune. Je ne sais pas si le Camp Fortune existe encore. Je veux dire que ce n'est pas le cas. Beaucoup de ski A. Je ne peux pas l'oublier. Il n'y a pas grand-chose, c'est sûr. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Jonathan : C'est toujours là. Ohh c'est au nord de Gatineau. L.M. : Dans la région de Gatineau, oui. Jonathan : Mais toujours près d'Ottawa. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai, parce que c'était l'autre chose. Il y avait pas mal de, vous savez, vous savez, j'avais des amis qui allaient au Québec pour boire, vous savez, ils allaient à la Chaudière ( ??). C'était un endroit très connu. Jonathan : Parce que l'âge légal était plus bas ? L.M. : Un peu comme. Les heures étaient plus longues. Jonathan : Oh. Ah, tu peux boire plus. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Je n'ai jamais bu, donc je ne connais pas ce genre de choses. Pensez-vous qu'il y ait des choses spéciales dans les années 1970 ? Comme quelque chose qui ne se reproduit plus jamais en matière de rencontres ou, vous savez, de vie sociale ? (32:55) L.M. : Non, je veux dire, comme je l'ai dit, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement probablement en termes de, de, de, de, de femmes se sentant plus libres que par le passé et vous savez, capables. D'avoir plus de contrôle sur leur vie. Mais cela s'est poursuivi, bien qu'il y ait maintenant, aux États-Unis, des gens que nous n'avons peut-être pas, il y a probablement des cinglés ici aussi, qui veulent mettre un terme à cela. Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : Vous savez, certains des républicains fous qui essayaient de prendre le contrôle, d'enlever le contrôle aux femmes et d'interdire l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances, je trouve incroyable que l'on puisse essayer de faire un pas en arrière à ce stade, mais je pense que c'est une bonne chose. Jonathan : Oui, c'est fou. Ça fait quoi, 50 ans ? (34:07) L.M. : Oui. Je pense que c'est tout simplement ça. Je pense qu'il s'agit d'hommes très conservateurs qui se sentent menacés par tout, par les femmes, par les personnes d'autres races. Je ne sais pas quel est leur problème, mais ils le sont. Jonathan : Oui. Je crois qu'on s'est un peu trop attardé là-dessus. Oui, il s'agit des années 70, pas d'aujourd'hui. L.M. : Oui. D'ACCORD. Je suis désolée. Oui, non. Mais je pense que c'était le début. Je ne dirais pas que c'est quelque chose qui s'est produit à l'époque et que nous n'avons jamais revu. Mais je pense qu'il y a eu des changements significatifs qui se sont produits à l'époque et qui se poursuivent encore aujourd'hui en termes de rôles des hommes et des femmes. En ce qui concerne les rôles des hommes et des femmes. Jonathan : OK, donc il y a eu un grand changement social pendant cette période. (35:07) L.M. : Le temps, mais je pense que c'est là. Oui, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement important. Jonathan : Mais en même temps, ça n'affectait pas vraiment ce que vous faisiez pour vous amuser et tout ça. L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas que mes centres d'intérêt aient particulièrement changé, j'ai grandi en m'intéressant aux arts et au théâtre et c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, c'est ce que j'ai fait à l'époque, c'est ce que j'ai fait avant, c'est ce que j'ai fait depuis, je suis toujours la même personne et je continue à m'intéresser à ce qui m'entoure. Jonathan : OK. Oui, bon, d'accord. Et la dernière, dernière, dernière partie. Il s'agit du harcèlement sexuel. Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été obligées de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure l'université surveillait-elle les événements sociaux ou les réunions à l'époque à cause du harcèlement sexuel ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas du tout. (36:14) Jonathan : Pas du tout ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Est-ce qu'il y a eu, est-ce que vous pensez qu'il y a eu, comme un pamphlet du genre, oh, ne, ne violez pas ? Je suis désolée. L.M. : Eh bien. Oui, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que ce genre de choses ait vraiment été mis en lumière à ce moment-là. Je pense que c'est beaucoup plus récent. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il y avait des problèmes à l'époque, mais je ne pense pas que je veux dire, évidemment, sur la base de ce que nous savons maintenant, il y a eu tout un tas de mauvais comportements pendant longtemps et il y en avait aussi à l'époque, mais ce n'était pas, ce n'était pas mis en lumière à l'époque. C'est quelque chose qui s'est produit plus récemment. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que l'université a considéré cela comme un problème ou qu'elle s'est dit, oh, c'est juste une affaire personnelle ? (37:05) L.M. : Oui, je pense qu'ils le considéraient, je ne pense pas qu'ils le considéraient comme un problème, mais je ne pense pas que c'était vraiment sur le radar. Je veux dire, évidemment, vous savez, si, si un viol se produisait, les gens s'en inquiéteraient, mais... Jonathan : OK. D'ACCORD. L.M. : Mais pas moi. C'est oui. Jonathan : Mais l'université n'a pas fait tout ce qui était en son pouvoir pour l'empêcher. L.M. : Non, il n'y avait rien de proactif à l'époque en ce qui concerne... Jonathan : OK. L.M. : -au viol. A ces questions, je suppose que c'est ainsi que j'aurais. Pour le dire. Jonathan : D'accord. Et oh, j'ai oublié quelque chose pour la dernière chose, la dernière chose concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Je suis désolé. Et donc les deux dernières questions. Parce que le projet spécifique est, il y a beaucoup d'intérêt pour l'amour libre. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Pensez-vous que c'était accepté ou non ? Ou... (37:49) L.M. : Oui, c'est ça. La différence entre la génération de mes parents et la mienne, c'est que les relations sexuelles avant le mariage étaient acceptées dans ma génération, dans les années 70, alors qu'elles ne l'étaient pas dans les générations précédentes. Et je pense, oui, je pense que c'était accepté dans les années 70 à cause de la disponibilité du contrôle des naissances. Jonathan : OK. Est-ce que vous pensez ? Mais pensez-vous que c'était peut-être même encouragé, comme si les gens, à cause du contrôle des naissances, voulaient avoir beaucoup de relations sexuelles ? L.M. : Je pense que c'était probablement beaucoup plus, c'était plus, il y avait plus de gens qui s'engageaient dans une activité sexuelle que dans la génération de mes parents, probablement, oui. (38:58) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents ou les parents d'autres personnes, s'inquiétaient de ce genre de choses, comme, oh, "n'ayez pas de relations sexuelles avant le mariage". Est-ce qu'ils vous l'ont déjà dit ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Oui, je pense que cela aurait été comme je, je veux dire que je n'ai jamais parlé de sexe avec mes parents. Nous n'avons jamais eu cette conversation... Jonathan : Ah oui. L.M. : ... mais je me souviens qu'à un moment donné, il en a été question parce que, comme je l'ai dit, j'avais l'habitude d'aller camper avec mon petit ami. Et d'autres choses encore. Alors je pense que mes parents étaient probablement inquiets de ce qui pouvait se passer et, vous savez, s'ils étaient inquiets, ils avaient raison. Si ça les concernait, ils avaient raison d'être inquiets, mais on n'en a jamais parlé et, vous savez... Jonathan : Donc on ne savait jamais s'ils étaient comme... (39:57) L.M. : -J'utilisais un moyen de contraception, donc c'était, vous savez, pour moi, une chose naturelle à faire à cet âge. Pour mes parents, cela ne l'aurait probablement pas été et ils auraient préféré que mon comportement imite le leur, mais c'était une autre époque. C'était une autre époque. Jonathan : Hmm, ça ouais, c'est pareil maintenant tu sais. Mes parents, ils ne veulent pas que je leur ressemble, oui. L.M. : Bien sûr. Oui, je pense que c'est l'attente des parents parce que c'est ce qu'ils savent, et donc c'est eux, ils sont. Les gens semblent toujours trouver le changement difficile. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. Bon, en fait, c'est toutes les questions. D'accord, d'accord, parfait. L.M. : Très bien. J'espère que cela a fonctionné cette fois-ci et... Jonathan : Oui, je l'espère vraiment. Ugh. L.M. : Oui. Oui, je suis désolée que vous vous soyez retrouvée coincée avec un sujet qui n'est pas, pas, en dehors de la norme de ce que le projet recherche. Jonathan : Eh bien, pour être juste, je pense que vous êtes beaucoup plus proche que d'autres personnes parce que, apparemment, beaucoup d'autres étudiants ont eu du mal à contacter la, la première personne qu'on leur a donnée. (41:04) L.M. : Oh, c'est vrai ? Jonathan : Oui. Et apparemment, comme il y avait beaucoup de problèmes, le professeur a dit : "Connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui est allé à l'école dans les années 1970 ?" Oui, n'importe qui. En fait, c'est comme si on demandait à ses propres parents s'ils étaient allés à l'université à l'époque, alors je pense qu'on est beaucoup plus proche de ce qu'ils attendaient. L.M. : Vous savez comment ? Oui. Savez-vous comment ils ont dressé la liste ? Comment ont-ils fait, comment ont-ils fait. Jonathan : La liste des personnes ? L.M. : Oui, la liste des contacts avec lesquels vous travailliez. Jonathan : Je n'en ai aucune idée. Je sais juste que le professeur comme vous savez qu'il a contacté beaucoup de monde. Comment comment vous joindre ? L.M. : Eh bien, il est intéressant de noter que dans mon cas, je n'ai pas été contacté directement, mais dans le cadre du contact, il y avait un, un de mes amis qui était le seul autre anglophone dans le programme que je suivais à l'Université d'Ottawa et dans le programme de maîtrise et, pour une raison quelconque, il était sur la liste et il me l'a transmise en disant, vous savez, au cas où je serais intéressé, il pensait que je l'avais probablement reçue aussi, puisqu'il l'avait reçue, mais je ne l'avais pas reçue. C'est pourquoi j'étais curieux parce que je me disais que j'avais donné de l'argent à l'Université d'Ottawa, que j'étais toujours sur la liste et que j'étais toujours exclu de l'Université d'Ottawa (41:57). Jonathan : Ohh. L.M. : Mais je ne l'ai pas fait. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas sur leur liste, alors j'étais curieuse de savoir comment ils y étaient parvenus. Parce que je veux dire, ça ne devrait pas être le cas. Jonathan : D'accord. Je pense qu'en ce qui vous concerne plus particulièrement, vous avez obtenu votre diplôme en 1976, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : C'est exact. Jonathan : Au départ, si je me souviens bien, ils voulaient les gens qui avaient obtenu leur diplôme en 1974. (42:58) L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : C'est un peu bizarre, et oui, vous étiez juste, comme, juste en dehors de la liste. L.M. : C'est exact. Je pense que nous étions en quelque sorte à la fin de la vague. Je veux dire, je pense qu'à bien des égards, la plupart des choses vraiment excitantes se sont produites à la fin des années 60. C'est donc à ce moment-là que ces idées étaient plus nouvelles, si vous voulez. C'est ça, oui. Nous étions donc à la fin de cette période. Jonathan : Je crois qu'il a dit qu'il avait consulté les annuaires et la base de données de l'université, par exemple, et qu'il avait contacté les adresses électroniques des gens, qu'il avait envoyé un courriel à tout le monde pour voir qui répondait. L.M. : D'accord. Oui, parce que c'est là que réside le défi. Vous avez la liste des diplômés, mais vous n'avez aucune idée de l'endroit où ils se trouvent aujourd'hui. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi je n'ai pas été contactée parce que, peut-être que c'est comme vous dites, c'est juste que mon ami qui était là à la même époque, nous étions là pour la même chose. Nous y étions tous les deux de 74 à 76. Nous étions là les deux mêmes années, alors je ne sais pas vraiment pourquoi ils l'auraient trouvé lui et pas moi. Jonathan : Oui, je pense que c'est vraiment le cas. Peut-être que tu lui as manqué. Oui, tu sais qu'il... Oui, tu le sais. C'est comme ça, oui, c'est comme ça. (44:03) L.M. : Eh bien, de toute façon, eh bien, je... J'espère que vous êtes vous et vos amis. Combien de personnes avez-vous dû interviewer ? Jonathan : Euh, non, juste toi. Il y en avait un. J'avais une autre personne, mais elle a dit qu'elle était trop occupée pour travailler avec moi. L.M. : OK. Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, honnêtement, je pense que j'ai beaucoup de chance que vous ayez répondu, oui. L.M. : Eh bien, cela vient probablement de mon expérience d'assistante pédagogique. J'ai de la sympathie pour les étudiants. Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : De rien, et je vous souhaite bonne chance dans vos études. Jonathan : Merci. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. L.M. : De rien. (45:02) Jonathan : Oui, bonne journée. L.M. : Vous aussi. Au revoir. Jonathan : Oui. Je vous remercie. Au revoir. (45:05) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., L (pseudonym) (Interview) Description An account of the resource Interview about uOttawa in the 1970s, including the dating/social life, feminism, and a little politics. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, 45 minutes, 10 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boogaart, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vares, Thomas Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vares, Thomas Interview Title: Interview with Thomas Vares Interviewed by: Thomas Boogaart II Date of Interview: November 10, 2023 Venue: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada using Teams Transcription Method: Microsoft Teams Original Language: English Translation: DeepL and Thomas Boogaart edits Tags (English): Ottawa, Toronto, Estonian Immigrant Culture, University of Ottawa, Youth Rebellion, Counterculture Movement, Hair Styles, Sexism, Shoplifting, Francophone Culture, Department of History, Party Culture. Citation: • Bibliography: Vares, Thomas. Interview with Thomas Boogaart. November 10, 2023. 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds. https://omeka.uottawa.ca/lifeoncampus/admin/items/show/1 • Footnote: Thomas Vares, interview with Thomas Boogaart, November 10, 2023, 23:06-23:24. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M39RtSf81k Thomas Boogaart (TB): It is November 10, 2023. We're in Desmarais 9114 and I have with me an illustrious alumni from the class of 1973, AKA a dinosaur generation. Thomas Vare (TV): The dinosaur generation? TB: Yes, we're looking forward to hearing some histories, Thomas Vares; did I pronounce it correctly? TV: Yeah. TB: OK, so I'm a little bit of a historian of the 20th century, and for an Estonian of that generation, usually when your family came over here (to Canada) it was related in some way to World War Two. So, I was curious how your family landed here. TV: Very well. So, I was born in Toronto. We lived in the Beach, which is the East End, a very Anglo-Saxon neighborhood, and still perhaps one of the most Anglo-Saxon neighborhoods in multicultural Toronto today. So, my parents came from Estonia, one of the Baltic countries, very, very small, about the size of Montreal, a country with a population of about 1.2 million, one-third being Russian today. And, they were overtaken by the Soviets during the Second World War, and people had basically 48 hours to make a decision. Do they stay and become part of the Soviet occupation, or do they flee? So, my parents fled from different families, and they fled across Europe and my mother, and her mother, fled to Germany. And they were in one of these work camps in Germany. They were actually in Dresden for the fire bombings by the Allies. And you know, they described to me these stories of how all the buildings were burning, and the only way that they could escape the bombed area was to wrap wet bed sheets around their bodies and run between the burning buildings. TB: Did they use white phosphorus? TV: I don't know what they used at that point in the bombing, and also my mother and her mother became separated in Dresden at one point. And so people would go to a wall and they dropped their name. And then say, you know, meet me at such and such a place and people could get unified again. So, my mother and my grandmother reunited. And then they came to Canada together. TB: They were displaced persons in Germany? TV: Exactly. And, so, they immigrated under that program, and they became maids for the Nielsen family in Toronto. The Chocolate Nielsen family. So, they were made for that particular family. That was the first employment they had. Now my father's story is a bit different. My father was from one of the major cities in Estonia and there was a political problem in that family. The Vares family, where one of the brothers was a Soviet sympathizer, and became the 1st President of the Estonian, of the Soviet version of Estonia, Estonian, USSR. So, my father; he fled with his mother and father and they ended up in New York. And somehow, I don't know the story, but my father managed to come to Canada and established himself in Toronto, where he worked on the railway. And so that's where he met my mother in Toronto. TB: So, they were both Estonian, but they didn't meet in the neighborhood. They met at work. TV: I don't know, they were dating somehow. I don't know how it was, but the immigrant community was very interesting because let's say all of these Estonians that immigrated in that wave after the Second World War in Toronto, all became a network of friends. And you know, my godparents were friends or friends, and it was a very, very tight network. TB: It's very typical with immigrants. TV: The street that I grew up on in Toronto, it had 12 Estonian families, but you believe that's the, let's say there were maybe 70 homes on Glen Davis. The street in the east and there were like 11 or 12 Estonian families on that street. TB: I think Estonian was Catholic. TV: No, they were Lutheran. So, you have regular Lutheran, and then you have an evangelical branch. TB: Yes, I'm familiar with that. So, were those church institutions important in Toronto in terms of integrating your social life? TV: Yes, very much so. The Priest- the minister- would visit our home and talk to my parents, etcetera. And, every year, an amount of money was identified by the minister as to how much the family had to contribute to the church. TB: The Tithe. TV: Exactly. So, it's almost like the old-fashioned Catholic way of doing things. TB: So, growing up in that system, imagine a lot of your social activities would have been in the church. TV: Exactly. So, I went to the Estonian Lutheran Church in Toronto. I went to Estonian summer camp where we spoke Estonian and it maintained the language. I went to Estonian school once a week in the evenings learning how to read and write, learn the history, and that sort of thing. So one of the things that sort of bothered me was that being brought up in that type of home, European Home Canada was put on a second level and the Estonian way of doing things is always the best, the superior way. These Canadians don't know anything. They don't know how to make soup. They, you know, eat soup out of again. But we European Estonians we cooked from scratch, you know? TB: It makes sense, right? Because they were forced to flee their home. So there was a kind of a loneliness for a home. TV: They couldn't go back, but as you know, very interesting. Is that what they don't realize? They couldn't go back really at that point because of the Soviet situation. You know what is interesting is the home country evolves. TB: Um-hmm. TV: And advances yes, and the language advances the vocabulary advances, but the all the exported colony. Yes, is frozen in time. TB: So, the linguists come to the United States to study the old language because it's frozen. TV: So exactly this is what happened, let's say with French. So, when New France was established in North America, the people here, the culture, the accent, it froze. Meanwhile, France, the metropolis it was evolving, right? So the Quebec accent that you have today is very much based on umm, you know exactly that's that same. TB: So you really grew up in an English Estonian environment? TV: Yes. TB: What was your perception growing up about Francophone culture? TV: Yeah, I believe in another life I was francophone because let me tell you, at the age of five or six, when I was sitting down at breakfast reading and looking at the Shreddies box or cornflakes, there's French and there's English. I was always fascinated. What is the French we used to get orange pekoe tea in a box, right? And they had a bird card. So, you could make your collection of bird cards. They were bilingual and the instructions on the box were bilingual, so I was always fascinated by this other language. But the overall attitude of immigrants vis-a-vis French was, well, why did they think they're special? You know, there was a little bit of a, a grudge there about well, well, why, you know, why is that language being given all of this attention to when we TB: And that's in the 50s and 60s? TV: Yes. TB: Before the sovereignty movement? TV: Yeah. even before that: And that value never changed with my parents. But they much wanted me to learn French, and we learned it in high school in Toronto, it was only in high school that you really started to seriously studying French. TB: So did you have an idea about Montreal as a cultural scene? TV: Well, Montreal was, you know, up until 1970, Montreal was the biggest city in Canada and the capital of not only French Canadian culture, but English, Canadian culture, because CBC radio and television English section was headquartered in Montreal. So all of the stars and the writers they were all established in Montreal. It wasn't until the political situation and people moved down the 4:01 that Toronto overcame Montreal and then CBC and the English Center of Culture shifted from Montreal to Toronto. TB: But you were growing up in this metropolitan area of Toronto, what was your sense of Montreal as a metropole? TV: Oh, fantastic because in my mind the first contact I had with Montreal was 1967. Expo 67 and all of the students from Toronto came to Montreal for four days or five days and we stayed at the College in the West End and the Agricultural College, TB: John Abott College? TV: Yes, and they had like a dorm. Som we stayed there and then we went to Expo and that's where we met French Canadians for the first time. It was totally amazing and one of the memories I have is they had the Expo train that went around the Expo site and at one point there was this dramatic view of the entire Expo site and there were some students, a class of students from Montreal, French-speaking, that were on that particular train with our class. And the minute they saw this huge view of the Expo, spontaneously, they started singing. Oh, Canada in French. It was a totally amazing moment, but getting back to what you're saying, my affinity and my love for Montreal from that point on was they were European. TB: Like you? TV: Yes, I was of European background. Their values of life were similar to the European values, even has a port. TB: Reading the cereal box you had this sense of affinity for that something. TV: And then when I met French Canadians for the first time when we came here to Montreal and 67, it clicked and I said, you know what, they are European and (Torontonians) they are not. And I don't wanna be racist or anything, but I always felt that English-speaking values and culture it’s sterile. There was something missing there. And the one that's one thing I agreed with my parents that the European background, we know how to live life and a bit more than just working 9 to 5 going home and that sort of thing. TB: That's the affinity you felt. TV: That's the affinity that clicked and then of course coming with my school, my public school, to Ottawa for a tour. Also, that was one of the visits that they organized. It was that whole idea. My God, I just where the government is and I became a political junkie. TB: Did you have a sense that Ottawa was not a cultural center but more of a political center? TV: It was not only a Cultural Center, but when we came here with our class from public school. It was the first time I saw a functioning bilingual environment where you could go into a store and you would hear French-speaking in English-speaking people they had a full-time French radio station, and a television station because, in Toronto, it wasn't until about 1970 that they opened up Radio Canada television station service. : What they had was once in a while they would carry French programs on one of the Hamilton stations, but there was no French-speaking television at that point until about 1970. TB: So you already told me you'll have to do it again. The story of how you came to Ottawa, but I can already see you had a kind of affinity. TV: Right. So yeah, so, I had this. I had this urge to become French-Canadian; Pierre Elliot Trudeau had a lot to do with it. He was my absolute idol and when I came here with my public school tour, it was the, you know, the end of public school. As such, we bumped into him getting, you know, he was getting into his car, and we got to talk to him. So you know it was, yes. So that was that was the first real step towards Ottawa. So what happened was I enrolled in the French program at Glendon College, York University in the 70s, and late 60s. It was a totally francophone college. Lawrence and Bayview. Beautiful campus. Nice mansion. That and classes were very small and it was a totally French program. Today I think it's sort of transformed itself into a half-French program, a half York University English program. So I took two years there and learned everything from French Canadian literature to courses in French Canadian history, took courses in French, Canadian politics, nationalism, all of that. And after two years, I I sat down with my counselor and I said this would have been 1970. I said well, listen, how can I really, really improve my French? Should I go to Quebec City for a summer job, or you know’ what are my options? And they said, well, you know what you could do, you could go to University of Ottawa. They have a fabulous program there where as an Anglophone you can take your history courses in French, but you can write your essays and your exams in English, so you get the best of both worlds and you get really immersed in French. I said, well, that sounds fantastic. So I spoke to my parents. So, they were all for that. And I arrived here at Ottawa U in my third year and this would have been 70, 71, 72 and loved it and never went back to Toronto and graduated. TB: So you did three years? TV: I did two years. TB: Two years and then two years. TV; Yeah, and it was fabulous. TB: Got a job on thenHill? TV: It's a student job. TB: As a page? TV: During the summer I worked in the post office. TB: OK, yes, it's important. TV: Sorting mail for the MP TB: there was a lot more mail back then. TV: Yes, it was fabulous. And then I became involved with the Liberal Party. It became a young liberal and that's a whole different story. TB: yeah, I'd be curious to hear that too, but we should probably leave that. So, what were your first impressions? You talk very positively about your university experience. But I mean you the first time you kind of came off the train where were you, and where were you living? Did you get an apartment? TV: We were living in residences. Well, you know what I have to tell you, the truth about some of it is rather wild. So, my father drove me to the airport in Toronto to come to Ottawa, and as we were driving to the airport, he gave me the father sons and he said, you know, we're so proud of you. You know, we have absolute confidence in you. We know that you're not gonna be a political radical. Umm, although I was, you know, a child flower child in the 60s and you know, a Beatles fan and you know, so I was a little bit of a cultural revolutionary. He said we have absolute confidence in you and we know you won't do drugs and alcohol and that sort of thing. And I didn't even smoke. So, you know, we know that you're gonna be a good boy. Oh, well, let me tell you about the first week in residence. I'm not even going to go into the details, but all of that just went out the window. TB: Uh-huh. TV: Alright, so my first impression of the society is that the society or the culture of the university residence culture was it was really dominated in immersed in the drug culture of the 60s. TB: OK, you know, so even in this, we're talking about alcohol, hashish, marijuana. TV: (nodding); LSD was very, very big. Let's put it this way. First week in residence and I was on the Marshawn residence right by the driveway there, the Nicholas Street. I had marijuana for the first time, and I think it took me 3 mornings to wake up and not be floating above my mattress. I think or whatever it was. So, I indulged in that, but I knew what my limit was after that. And, so, as I saw my friends advancing from marijuana to hashish to LSD and that sort of thing, I would be in the room and I would decline. And quite sometimes it was quite different. Difficult to be the only person in the room that was there. Umm well, everyone else was hallucinating or doing what they were doing, but I don't blame them or anything. But yeah, that was my first impression was now my second impression was, well, coming from Toronto. This was the first time that I met people from small towns.Yes, from Kingston, Napanee, Apine, or whatever it is, they had an entirely different view of life. TB: Yeah. TV: And absolutely different values and I found myself to be the goody goody of the bunch coming from Toronto. TB: From a strict European family, rebelling against their conservative environment? TV: I don't know. I think it was just values that and again, you know I'm not being critical of these people because they were wonderful people. But for instance, you know, I'll give you one example. So, this you know, Thomas, we've got to shake you up here, like, get you into the real world. So, have you ever shoplifted? I said, what are you talking about? He said, well, you know, shoplifted go into a store and steal something. I said absolutely not. I've never done that, I said. How can you possibly do that without being arrested? So, they said to me they were like two guys from Kingston. OK, where you go to Spark St, there's a there's a Kreski's. Umm, we're gonna show you how to shoplift/ TB: They broke you in? TV: OK, so we went. So, we go into the store and just one guy from Kingston, the leader of sort of our pack, said. OK, so this is what you do you see that lighter over there? This is winter. He said you have one glove here and one glove there. So what you do is you pick up the ledger, you look at it and you put it on top of that glove and then when no one's looking, you take the other glove and you put it on top of that and you walk out of the store. Or so I looked at the lighter. I've never and it's just. I'm sorry I can't do it. I can't do it. TB: you were a good boy. TV: No, no, I you know it wasn't a question of being a good boy. I couldn't do the dare. It was a dare, I said, you know, like, I'm sorry. I mean you can call me a suck if you want to. I cannot do it. Then the second guy. I won't tell you his name, but he was wearing one of these huge leather cowboy hats that they were wearing in the 70s and it was a winter's day and there was like a Blizzard outside. So, we were the only people in this Kresky store. So, I, you know, defied the dare. So, this other guy said, well, you see the records over there, I'm going to go over there and I'm gonna steal one of the records. And I looked at him and I said the store is completely empty. There's three of us in this store, He's got this incredible hat on.I mean, I just said I said, you know what? I'm outta here. I'm going back to residence. You know, you guys can do whatever you wanna do. So went back to residence and an hour later the phones in the hall and I get buzzed, saying there's a phone call for you in the hall. I pick up the phone and it's the guy. Well, what do you want from me? Where are you? I'm at the police station. They won't let me out unless somebody comes down and signs for me. And then you know, I can get out. And then I have to go to court, right? TB: So that's just an example of values and I wish it would call that the teenage rebellion culture like these are wild and maybe they settled down and they're couple years. TV: I think you know, again, I've never been brought up in a small town. You know, I've been brought up in the big city and I said, you know, a disciplined home, first-generation Canadian from a European family where it's, you know, you know, the father, the head of the family says, as long as you, as long as you live in my house and you he really said this: when I tell you to jump, you jump and halfway up I'll tell you how high. And if you don't wanna follow my rules and you go and get your own house, like, that's the type of, you know, European for general, you know, home that I was brought up and so looking at these people from small towns, I think they just had a different set of values and I think they saw Ottawa as the big city and that, that, and ou're right that here is a chance for them to act up. TB: Yeah and rebel. TV: And not be impressed with the bigness college. TB: That was part of breaking away from your parents. I mean cycle and the value you know (verify) TV: I must say that you're on to something. I had that same feeling in a sense, but I always had. A desire to push my parents and their insistence on Estonian background to the second level and bring my Canadian to the front level most of my Estonian friends remained in the Estonian culture, and I said to my parents when I moved to Ottawa you and everything I said, you know, this is an important step for me because you know what? I am Canadian first, Estonian background. Second, never, ever question that. So, I'm not gonna waste my time going to Estonian dance. Hmm group or the literature group, I said. I want the Canadian experience, so I'll take that time and I'll learn about French, Canadian literature, and culture. So, that was a little bit of my revolt. But there was a bit of patriotism thing. TB: I want to go back to something you said because that might help to explain it. You said, well, you identified as a flower child. Like you were influenced by The Beatles, but what did that mean? TV: OK, you listen to the beat of people who give me, give you an example. So classical music at home records, you know, but your parents control the record player. So, it was classical records. The only other music there was Nat King Cole, I think, and I think there were some Sinatra disks. So, one day I went out and I bought one of The Beatles albums. This would have been what, 66-65 TB: 1966 (actually 1964) when they were first coming in with the British invasion? TV: Yeah. And I put and I put that on the record player in the living room and my dad. My dad walks in. What on Earth is that? What is that stuff, and take that off. And why are you playing this it? Because I like it. I like it and that was sort of it. I was surprised because he didn't challenge me on that. Usually, I was challenged on everything like, you know, they determined what type of haircut my mom bought me, all my clothes. TB: you had a crew cut. TV: Yes. TB: And the Beatles cut? TV; Oh please you know I was dying for that. TB: So what? TV: I'll give you an example of how I broke away out of that mode. So my mom wants in a while would give me Her Simpsons card retail card to go downtown to Queen St to buy her a particular fashion patterner or something, and then she would always say while you're there, why don’t you buy something for yourself? So, this would have been 68 I think. So, I went downtown to do some at the store and I bought her pattern or whatever it was. But by saw the Sonny and Cher bell bottoms with flowers and yellow and orange and checks and stripes and I said I have to be happy. TB: Wow. TV: Yeah. So, I bought them. I went home and it gave my mom-- my dad hadn't come home from work at that point-- and gave them my mom. I said to her, Mom, can you hem these pants for me? She's like you just take those things back right now. And when your Dad comes home, I'm gonna tell him, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, what I did was I went upstairs. I've never done any sewing or whatever it is. I went into my mom's sewing kit and I hemmed them, I don't know how I knew how to do it, but I shortened those pants. But I was afraid to come out of my room. So, I heard downstairs my dad was home and there was the usual call. Dinner time to go down. So, I go walking downstairs into the dining room and my dad and my mom were there. TB: They are at the table. TV: Yeah, at the table and I'm just like, I'm modeling these Sonny and Cher flower child, bell bottom pants. And you know what? They didn't say anything. TB; You think they had discussed it? TV: I don't know. I don't know, but nothing. TB: No criticism? TV: Absolutely nothing. From then on, I was able to change my clothes. TB: You think they came to some sort of an assessment at that point, they viewed that as a threat. They were gonna lose their son, or what was the threat presented? TV: I think it was cultural. I think it was saying that you know, like we wanted like at this straight European type of child you know a conservative and not into all of this. You know, cultural revolution and everything, but it was sort of step by step. So it was the music that I wanted to hear. It was, you know, getting the bell bottoms. TB: It seemed like the way you're describing it, you can tell me if I'm right or not for your parents it was a sense of you developing your own identity away from old Estonia, but they didn't see it as like you were becoming liberal, promiscuous? TV; No, no, I think they also found it to be. A reality, you know, a reality in a sense. And I think they understood that you know, I was growing and you know, at one point you have to show some respect and acceptance as such. So you know that was so the music, the clothes. And then after the pants, the hair became, you know, I could go to the Barber alone. And I could decide on, you know, but education, strict control. OK. And I'll never forgive my dad for high school. He forced me to take Latin for five years, and my God, I hated that. TB: It's valuable for history. TV: Oh please, are you kidding? I've never used it day in my life and and and my dad. You know, it was. Oh, my son, if you wanna be a lawyer, you wanna be a pharmacist? Do you wanna be a doctor? TB: You have to know latin. . .. TV: No, please. TB: Latin died ten years later. TV: I think the only thing it helped me with is learning French. TB: Base for languages? TV: Yeah, German. I you know, I've studied German. I've studied Russian, studied some other languages. You know how to parse sends a subject, adjective, adverb, that type of thing. You can go into different languages and that was the other great thing about the public school system and taking English was that they took. We took grammar. So you would take it was called parsing, so you would take a sentence in English and identify the subject that a squiggly line, the verb with one bracket for adjectives, square brackets for clauses that but the case is accusative, nominative, that sort of thing. And you really learn skills for almost any language, so this would have been about 2015 in Toronto. I took German cases are very important in German and I was the only I was the oldest person in the class I was the only person who understood when the professor was saying, well, in this particular case, this is the object and it. But it's an object of the preposition, not the verb you know and we went into that and all the younger people in the class of single how do you understand it? All of this stuff, it just clicked because my brother went to school five years after I did, and the grammar study had already changed from forgetting about subject-verb. Just look at the sentence and learn it. TB: So can you go a little bit back to Frosh week? It sounded like all these people, you know, all these people are coming from different backgrounds? TV: Yeah, all over from Ontario. TB: They're broken away from the nest of their parents, and it just seemed like it was a wild party. Do you remember what it was like? You were in a dorm, so it was a party? TV: It was absolutely a party, party, party and you know whichever group that you belong to. You know, it was very difficult to study the group. TB: You belong to the group, the people on your floor that you were assigned to? TV: Yeah,, let's put it this way. All right, the favorite thing was let's skip class. Oh my God. TB: Right. TV: You know, high school. You can't. You get a detention. At university, no one is checking it, so they're in this? Oh, it's not good. You know, let's skip class today and you know, go down to the penny for a beer or whatever it is, right? It got to the point where at the end of the second semester in 3rd year where you have to sit down with your professors and decide on what the subject is for your essay or whatever it is. Why would show up and the professor would look at me and say who are you? I have never seen you before, right? And as a result, I was called into the Dean's office and I was told point blank. Sorry, we're not going to allow you to go on to the 4th year program because your marks are a disaster for 30, for 30-year. Ohhh, my gosh, just like Alex Trebek who got a second chance. TB: you pleaded. TV; I know, I pleaded. And I pleaded and I said, look, this is would be the end of my world. You know, I could never go back home if this happened to me, you know? Please, please, please give me a chance. So, they said. All right. Well, put you on probation. So first, first term, 4th year you're on probation. If you don't get over 65% in everything you know we won't allow you to proceed. Well, did I learn no more parties on Friday, Saturday, Sunday? Totally in the library all the time reading, doing my essays studying, regardless of what my friends said. So, the end of the term, uh, the officers were in the arts building the old arts building. That's where you had your nicer things were just starting to be computerized. Admins, admin, admin for administration. Obviously, we didn't. TB: Ordinary people didn't have computers. TV; So when I went to meet my advisor, I hadn't received my marks yet, because there's always a month delay before you get the paper thing in the mail. So I have scheduled a meeting with my advisor. He said, OK, well, this is the moment of truth. TB: Your marks? TV: I'm gonna click in your file number, and all of the marks are filed now. So this is the moment of truth, and I'm just sitting there saying oh my God. Then the course they came in sort of what you said, 95, 86. You were a little bit uncertain, even though. No, no, I was just, you know, you know. And she's meeting them 95, 85, you know, 82. TB: You did it. TV: I did it, and from that moment on I knew what studying was all about, but that became a very important moment in my life, in the sense of second chances. So, this would have been the year 2004. When I was in Toronto, I had so many different jobs and I don't know if you want to get into that, but at one point I was teaching public relations in a three-year program at Durham College in Oshawa. I lived in Toronto. I commuted so I had a three-year program and so I had students that just came out of high school or I had people who were adults, who were changing their careers. So what I saw was there were many, many students in my first-year class that had trouble adjusting to skipping classes the way I did, you know, goofed around and I could have kicked them out of the program. I had that same serious talk with him. And you know what? Mostly when they graduated, many of them, they were the stars, and won all the awards, and some of the people who were excelling in their first year never graduated in 3rd year, right? So I remember the convocation at one point for after, you know, at the end of the school year and at that college and all of the professors were sitting on the stage behind and then all of the students are named and they come up and they get their diploma and also they get their awards. So we're sitting there and some of my students are coming up in a say, yes, and well, I kicked her out of my classroom. You know, I suspended him for a week because he, you know, he wasn't adjusting. So the little bit of discipline in the talks worked. The second chance seemed to be really working, so the big value that I get from audible, you, and my own experience was in life. You need to give people a second chance and apply standards. TB: Yeah, yeah. Apply standards and have a serious talk. TV: Yeah, but don't just write them off. You have to explore. You know, an opportunity. So that was one of the big, big takeaways from (the university of) Ottawa. TB: If I can just go back to the partying of the early years as one subject, I haven't gone into that, and you can feel free not to answer for whatever reason. But you know the hippie, the element of the free love movement, the pill, and everything else you know what I mean, there was a lot of alcohol and campus. You were talking about recreational judge drugs. To what extent was there, OK, a hook-up culture? TV: OK. Actually, to tell you. OK, so I've always been gay, but I was never active until much later in life and I have to say that in my group. We were not aware that there was any sexuality going on in residence or on the campus. I think we were once in a while. We heard a story about, you know, people, you know, a couple hooking up or here. But in my particular group, no, there was no, no. It was more like goofing off and all that sort of thing, but no hookups, and sexuality was not really that evident in in our group. And it was perfect for me because one of the things that is not really openly discussed in many European families, that generation right- is sexuality. So I never had a discussion with my parents about sexuality until my God, my 40s, when I went home and we had that discussion about being gay. TB: Do you think they suspected? TV: You know, of course, parents know their children. TB: They didn't wanna confirm, but they don't . . . TV: I think they were just parking, you know, park it on the side and don't deal with it and don't. . . TB: Yeah. TV: So, do you want to hear this? I don't know if you want to hear that story, but that's really not related to Ottawa. OK? TB: Well, you can tell whatever stories you want, but one of the things you mention, you were really a Francophile. TV: Yeah. TB: And the impression I got from other people I've interviewed so far, and I'm just at the beginning of the process, that anglophones and francophones, were relatively segregated in the sense that that the class work, there were English and French classes like today. And you know, there was some interaction in the dorms, there was the meeting of anglophones and francophones. TV: Absolutely. I would say that in residence there was no differentiation between francophones and anglophones. Everyone mixed, particularly if you were having lunch or dinner at the cafeteria, you never knew who you were sitting with, but it was camaraderie. And you know, you had many really interesting situations where you had anglophones who didn't speak a word of French, and you had francophones, you had some francophones who didn't speak a word of French (meant English). And to give you an example, one of the great things in residence was ordering a pizza at midnight. TB: That is so universal. TV: Yeah. So, I remember, one day I was responsible for taking the order and there was one guy in our group who was a francophone, who did not speak any English. So my friends at that point were more or less high school French with a little bit of advancement here. And I remember speaking to him and confirming with him what do you want on your pizza? TB: OK. TV: And he clearly told me that the only thing he wanted on his pizza was anchovies. And I looked at him again and I said, Are you sure? I'm Schwab, you know, like in this is what you want? So, the orders came in, and he gets his pizza, and he opens his box, and he has a fit because all it is cheese and anchovies and I said, but that's what you told me. And I asked you several times. So once in a while, like you know . . . TB: Lost in translation. TV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other game in residence that was a lot of fun; and the radio stations and the school came on to it, was we would phone the radio station and say this is the University of Ottawa calling, and all classes are canceled tomorrow. It's a snow day and they would broadcast it over the radio saying that all classes were canceled at the University of Ottawa, right, and it caused total chaos. So finally, the radio stations in the university got smart and I think there was a code number that the university would give the radio station to assure them that it was a valid OK, a valid thing, right? So yeah, we got away with a couple of calls about snow days. TB: You're gonna be a big star for the students. Cause a lot of things you've said are very insightful. We're dealing with society from within, and I just got to go over some stuff that I think I was good. TB: Yeah. TV: And then you can get. TB: Maybe follow up. TV: I just wanted to say a couple of things. So you know, coming to university; the University of Ottawa, of course, as you said the early 70s was a very important time in the world, of transition and just some of the events that are remembered that are related to that in Ottawa was November 1971, they were doing nuclear tests in Alaska and Chittka was the island and there was a lot of turmoil and anti-nuclear movement. And this was my first political expression, and it happened. And we organized ourselves into a demonstration and went to the American Embassy. And I remember having this sign that said bomb Washington, DC, not Chittka! So that was my, you know, first political approach tests. TV: Then, in April 72, Nixon came to Ottawa and he came from the airport. And his limousine went by the driveway just down there. So, all of us ran from the residence down to the driveway to wave as his limo went by. So, I just remember that like a friendly wave, yes, I think it was a friendly wave at that point because, you know, he was the President of the United States. And although we protested this and that Canadians are thought generation was still very much in awe. This was the Big Brother, and we were the smaller TB: OK, because when Trump and Bush came, they got a welcome too. TV: September 72, the Russia-Canada hockey game. TB: Yeah. TV: We were all glued to the television sets in residence for that particular game, and it came across in the afternoon. I think it wasn't an evening broadcast because it was live and when they won and that final goal was scored, the whole campus emptied out downtown with Canadian flags and people were running all over the place. So that was an event that I will never, never forget. TV: Then there was a 1972 the election federal election. Pierre Trudeau was reelected. But it was, I think, with a minority government at that point. So the political parties were very active on campus and recruiting and I was recruited to work for John Turner in AltaVista. Was that was sort of his writing and that's how I sort of became really involved with the Liberal Party at that point TB: door to door? TV: Yes, canvassing and knocking on doors. And you know, it was a really interesting canvassing technique for Turner. So, we as young people would go to an apartment building and knock on all the doors, saying John Turner would be in the lobby in 40 minutes. So, if you want to meet him, come downstairs in 40 minutes and you can talk to him. Then he would come down and we be at the next building, knocking on doors sort of things. So, it was really, really organized and he at that point was looked at as the JFK in waiting like the, you know, they don't of course, you know, Trudeau was the star and everything, but he was already there. But Turner was sort of looked at as the, you know, the leader in waiting. TB: Yeah, yeah. Let's see. The History Department personnel or what I would love to know more. TV: The History department, yeah. So, there were three particular professors of note that I remember from the History Department. Canadian history was what I was studying. There was Jacques Monet and I think he was a. . . TB: an oblate? TV: Yes, an oblate, leftover, and his specialty was the monarchy and the Constitution. And I could not get over that because one of the values that stayed with me from my European background was monarchy. What the heck is that? Right? And, so I've always ended very British, so I've always rejected that. So I was sitting. . . TB: Did they give you Geoffrey Elton to read? TV: Yes, all those types of history. And he became the specialist on the monarchy in Canada for royal visits, and the governor. And I think he had some sort of a book with the Governor General or something like that. And then there was a Philemon Wallet. I think he was a brother as well. I'm not sure, but his specialty was French Canadian nationalism and politics, so he was the one that really gave me an understanding of the Quiet Revolution and an understanding the October Crisis and that sort of thing. Then there was John Trent, who I think was one of the longest-reining professors at the University of Ottawa, and he was a Constitutionalist as well, so I remember taking constitutional history with him. And then there was Dave Broadfoot from Toronto, and he was the first socialist professor that I really ran into. And he wrote a book on the Depression and Canada, which is the Bible Broadfoot on Hatch. (verify) So those are the professors that I sort of . . . TB: There was some Marxism on campus, but it was more in the social sciences? TV: It's worse than I think, it must have been more in the social sciences because really, it wasn't really that evident in the history side because it was past political history, and since I didn't get any Russian history or maybe it came out of that or I didn't study European history as such. But in Canadian history, although there was socialism and Marxism in Canadian history, it really was social history more than political history. But of course, today we know it was a very significant movement now in in not only in Canada but in the United States, that has more or less been overlooked. But I think that's something that social history is really looking into. TB: If I could ask you some basic questions that I think students might be very interested in. I mean, one of the things that students need to do in their advanced courses, in their third and fourth years, you have to write a term paper. So describe to me one of the term paper assignments that one of these professors would assign to you? TB: OK. One good example and this would have been with Wallette. I believed in my studies that the Act of Confederation in 1867 was the Union, you know, of the Canadas. But in my mind, it was the separation of French and English because Quebec became its own province. Previously to 1867, Quebec was part of the Union of Upper Canada on Lower Canada, and he vehemently disagreed with that because he liked to focus on the Union, I wanted to write an essay saying that in fact, in many ways the Confederation Act of 1867 was an act of disunion as much as it was union. TB: So where did you have this debate? TV: In his office and his office in the little building with the crooked floors. And. TB: Yeah. TV: And he just would not hear of it. And then finally, somehow I guess you know he said. OK, I did so I wrote my essay. I made my point, and if I remember I got a very, you know, I got a very decent mark for it and that was the point that I've always wanted to emphasize in that particular area. TB: How long was this term paper? TV: This term paper would have been. 30 pages type double spaced. TB: How many sources? TV: Oh, come on. You know all those days, you know what in those days you go into the, you know, you go to the library says, why should, yeah. In those days, you go to the library with an index box, some recipe cards and elastic bands. TB: OK. TV: And you spend days and days leading these books and noting on these recipe cards quote page font. You know this. So at the end of your research, you've got like a box of recipe cards like this, and you have to sit down and play exact solid hair. Map it out on. You know how on heaven's name are you gonna put this together? TB: Yeah. TV: OK, that was the challenge. And then in resident support, when is the best time to do this? After midnight, when people and you know, and so you're sitting there and you're typing. TB: You went to the lounge to find a big table, which to arrange your cards? TV: Well, no. I had them on the floor on the floor of my residence. And then, of course, you know, at 1:00 o'clock in the morning you're typing because the essay is due the next day and you leave things OK? So, it's like thing your roommates sleeping real people are coming knocking on. They're just, can you please tape your bell? You know, that sort of thing. So yeah, so, that's the way we that's the way you did your essays. TB: These students are so spoiled they just do not understand. We have to go into detail. TV: Yeah. TB: Explain how a typewriter works and how TV: Underwood was the brand. TB: OK. TV: And you know what? And then the only way that you could correct the mistake was by having this liquid, a white liquid that you could put on it. TB: liquid paper! TV: Whatever it is. And, oh, but just as an aside, and that was the course of working in government was if you were writing a letter for someone’s signature, you made a mistake in the last sentence. You have to start all over again because you cannot use liquid paper for a formal document. So, in those days it was a pain in the back. Let me tell you, and then buying ribbons. TB: What about footnotes when you decide to change. . . TV: Yeah, I'm just wrong. My God, you have to. And let's put it this way. When I was doing, you know in the mid 2000s and doing my masters in social history and Toronto. What a difference. My God, you've got everything on your laptop and clean, clean, clean, clean. It's there. And now. Yeah, this paragraph and shift TB: And now you have this, this algorithm, this chat GPT. TV: Actually, you know what? I've actually tried it, and you know, and sometimes it comes up with an answer. You know, I'm new and I'm just learning about this. Yeah, or sorry, I don't give medical advice. You know, there are certain, but yeah, but umm, I think I, you know and I know that professors have a very different view of this. But the chatbot GPT you know, as long as you as the student understand what the chatbot is providing you with and you agree with it and you can source it and then identify that particular source. I wouldn't have a problem with it and I think maybe that's the compromise that, you know, scholars are gonna have to come to say that. TB: Yes, you can use artificial intelligence. TV: You can't deny it, but as long as you are able to go back beyond the well-artificial capture TB: The problem is that the professors are still in the 1970s, the students already looking to 2040 when they don't have to do any work. TV: You know you have to sort of. When again I wasn't that much of an academic professor. German college. It was more or less a, you know, communications course. And II did teach them communications history. And by the way, Mackenzie King, our first Prime Minister, was the first practitioner. Public relations in North America because who was the rich millionaire with the coal mines in the United States? TB: Dale Carnegie? TV: I think it was Carnegie or there was another one. Anyways, he went down. There were coal mine strikes and Mackenzie King went down and taught him how to treat his employees, how to negotiate the strikes, and as things such as you know, what you have to have family picnics. TB: The Harlan County War? TV: Yeah, used to have that family picnics. And you have to do this so our Prime Minister and he was like an incredible Prime Minister during the war as well. If you go back into actually studying what he did, all of the committees and organizations that he had to set up internally within his government during the IT is like totally amazing what this man did. He's identified as a Kook and all that sort of thing, consulting ghosts and everything. But the man was a genius, an organizational, administrative genius. TB: Yeah. We were promised some stories about women on campus. That was one big theme, alright? TV: This goes to orientation week, so orientation week is organized by in residence by the senior guys in the men's residence. At that point, we didn't have, you know, Coed residence. And so I was in Marshall, and I forget what the women's residence was called; Tabaret? TB: No. TV: yes, Stanton, and there were two towers. Men, women, and then the cafeteria joined on two towers underneath, right with a pool room. And that's where it was, you know, mingling. So the seniors in the men's residence organized orientation week, so there were a couple of highlights of orientation week. The first one was the panty raid. Talk about sexism. Alright, so the panty raid, so the senior guys in the men's residence, would you know, lined us all up the newbies and we would have been maybe 50. TB: Hmm. TV: I said OK, so we are now going to do a panty raid. TB: So what you need to do is you need to storm the women's dorm and you need to get into a room and steal a pair of panties and come back and you can't come back until you bring some panties back. TV: Oh my God. So, this I'm telling you, I am not exaggerating, folks. This was totally out of control. TB: Like storming the castle. TV: Oh where they project but it was totally unknown. Give control. So, in order to get into some of these dorms for the women to open at one point, I remember being in a hall where the guys got the water hose, and the fire hose out of the wall and started just blasting it at doors. Unfortunately, this one girl opened the door and the fire hose is going like right into her right into her residence room. People storm in and get their panties. At one point I remember looking at another open door and somehow somebody had taken honey or molasses and poured it all over. Somebody staring. TB: The women didn’t resist? TV: Oh well, I don't think we. I don't think we were there long. Yeah, you know, it's like grab and run. TB: So you hadn't shoplifted before? TV: Well, no. And honestly, I wish I could say that I got a pair of panties I don't remember. OK, I don't remember, but I think I think in the back of my mind, I really knew that it was wrong because I'll tell you one thing, I've always looked at myself as a feminist because even in the so I started my first employment in Parliament in 1974 full time, and at that point, when women and men had different salaries and you know, but you know what, in my entire life, I have never internally differentiated between a colleague being male or female. They've always been colleagues, so I wouldn't understand the difference in salaries. TB: So many people tell me that that they, didn't have this gender bias. TV: No. TB: But we did hear a story last night. One of the female students was talking about how when she would walk around campus they would whistle and pinch her butt. TV: Uh, that, you know, like that I that I didn't see that. I didn't see, but again, there were two types of guys. I think there's like the not saying an enlightened but sort of the oblivious to gender type of people that I associate with. But there was always the type of guy, and once in awhile you meet one of these men. Adults today, where they refer to their the wife, Umm. And so, the remember there was one guy in our group who was going out with somebody and he always said my girl never used her name or something. Then I remember one time I said, I said, does she have a name? Like, why are you always saying my girl? What is her name? Use her name for Heaven’s sakes, right? TB: What did he say? TV: He got very angry and told me to mind my own business, but I just found that, you know, or the wave, umm, uh now. So the panty raid was one thing, then let me tell you two things. You're gonna second thoughts about sharing yesterday, so we ran to the market and we got live lobsters. TB: Oh no. TV: Somehow we got into the women's dorm and went to the washroom with some of the girls were taking showers, and put the live lobsters into the shower through behind the curtain. And the screen. Can you imagine that? So yeah, I wouldn't wait. Yeah. No, that sounds like a plan. OK. TV: And I did this. I admit that I did this so 4th year when I was on the team of organizing. TB: You were studious. TV: Yeah. Well, no. Would have been. It would. Yeah, I would have been where I had to be studious. You still? I don't remember. So then we said, OK, you know what? We're gonna do with the with this new crew. So we went into the washroom toilets and we took peanut butter. We smeared it all over the seats so it looked like you know what? Then we called the guys in line them up in the Washington. Alright, who did this? This is disgusting that I walked up to the toilet seat like this. Right. You know what? It's. Can you imagine that? And the other thing in the girl's residence was putting Saran wrap underneath the toilet of seat. I've asked to be like the oldest joke. Ohh, you know they didn't notice it. Yeah. Well, of course they did, because you know sort of thing before they sat down. They would know. Ohh yes, later then just. I'm gonna give you two other little stories. One was so these people from small towns, rabble rousers. Uh. Fire. Fire was. I don't know. They were. This particular group was just like into fire, so 4:00 o'clock in the residence woman's residents, usually people come back from class, go up the elevator, go to the rooms, dump off their books, come down the elevator to go into the cafeteria. So these guys went to the second floor and stopped the elevator and I was down on the 1st floor to see what being told to. You need to stay on the 1st floor and see what happens. So there's a mob of people waiting on the 1st floor get into the elevator. The elevator comes down from the 2nd floor. The people move forward to get in. They had stuff newspaper on the floor of the elevator and set a fire. So the doors opened and the leaves are coming up from, you know, and people Ruby forward to get in the elevator. I could not believe that second fire story. They took bed sheets and they tied them together and hung them out the window on the side of the building. So the bed sheets went down four floors, then somebody went down to the bottom of the floor to the floor, where the bed sheet was, and lit it on fire. So that the bed sheets were on fire all the way up to the, you know, so, these were some absolutely unbelievable. . . I don't know where the ideas came from. I can't believe that these people weren't arrested or expelled from residence. TB: I have a question about it. It seems like the generation before the 60s generation, they did some of these stunts and there seemed to be a purpose for it, like fighting for social justice. Your generation seemed to be like animal house. TV: It was just, yeah, playing. So this is, let me tell you that is I've never seen the movie because that's not the type of movie I would ever go to see to begin with, but from what people have talked about, yeah, it was like goons. It was just absolutely out of control. TB: Craziness and I don't know, is it youth acting out their wild oats? TV: Sewing up I think. Basically, I think it had to be made. I don't think everyone shared that particular view. I have a feeling it may have been mental problem or you know, psychology TB: Were they more anglophones? TV: These well, they were anglophones from small anglophone town. The francophones were more studious, more studious. I would say well from the group that I knew and the group that I would hang out with, you know that was my choice. But no, I think that though this craziness, I think maybe it was something to do with the they're bup bringing or I can't say that it was like a value by the time other than it was insanity and maybe it was a branch of the orientation week where basically people were told to be crazy. TB: Bbut they were rebels without a cause. There was no. . . TV: Yeah, they were. Absolutely. They were. I think they were just crazy out to do. Business type of thing where you've testified very long. TB: I don't wanna tire you out, but if you have at least 5 minutes, I'd have a few more questions about the department. TV: No, no, absolutely ask me. TB: I just wanted to just double check. I just wanted to return to something you mention before about fashion. TV; Ohh great. TB: OK, great. TV: So wooden clogs TB: Klompen? TV: Yeah. So the from Europe about two years after everyone was wearing Caso was in Sweden at one point. At that point, Guy family there, everyone on campus was wearing wooden clogs. TB: You don't see them anymore, right? TV: But yes, so it wouldn't clogs bell bottom jeans and then cowboy boots and the cowboy boots were very special. They were the brown, tall boots with the square toe. Because the square toe would go into the is sterile. Disturb. TV: Alright, but So what? You would have to do what I was taught from these people, from the small town. I had to get pair of these boots to be cool, but to be really cool you buy the boots with the square toe. Then you have to soak the boots in water until they're soft. Take a hammer and then round out the square toe so it's round. So then you end up with the same cowboy boot. TV: The type of thing food, the highlight of the cafeteria food, you know? Ohh my, it turns my stomach Hawaiian pizza. Can you imagine pizza with pineapple on it? I don't know, but that was the go to invented, OK? And if you were sophisticated and you went out to a restaurant at that period, you would be ordering schedule Brionne for two. TB: OK. TV: Because you it only came for two, you would be drinking horrible sweet matuse wine. And for dessert, you would have Black Forest cake, Black Forest cake. That was like the top of it. You know, if you're going out on a date with that sort of thing, and I think I have said. Everything. TV: So you can ask me 5 the questions that you want.. TB: You're gonna be a star witness, so I wanna go a little bit more into. I just wanna go back to something that you just mentioned like the clothes you wore. So once you came to campus, you were your own person. You could choose your own clothes. Did your hair go down? Did your shave less? TV: Oh, you know what this where for one year. The rebellious year, when I didn't go to class and all that sort of thing. Yes, the hair came down to my shoulder. I was told when I went home for Christmas by all my relatives about parents that I looked like meathead on what was that program meathead? The American sitcom Edith and Archie Bunker. TB: Archie Bunker, all in the family. TV: Yeah, All in the Family. Yeah, meathead was the guy who married his daughter, right? So, the mustache I gained weight to that. I would look like meathead, so that's what I looked like. And then, yeah, the clogs, the bell bottoms and then, you know, basically sweatshirt or whatever it is. And that's how you dress. TB: So yeah, it seemed like there was a hair war like the teenagers or the the university students would wear it long and their parents would definitely comment on it. TV: It would be like the first thing when you came in the door, so that was kind of what it was. But Beatles started it right with The Beatles MOP. TB: Yeah. TV: Mop haircuts and then it became rather bohemian, I say. TB: But did the parents generation, did they view that a rejection of their culture? Or did they worry, what did this signify that you think? TV: I think parents very much understood. At one point, you know, after The Beatles became accepted that that I think what The Beatles did more than just give us great music and help people like me rebel against my parents’ culture and everything was they made my parents generation, except the shift of generations. I think with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and the long hair and the fashion, the pair, that generation finally realized- the postwar generation-that there had been a generational shift and that they that they no longer were. TB: So you had the Beatniks before. They were making some of these hippy ideas more mainstream and acceptable. They were transitioning into. TV: I think that, I think the Beatnik culture that is there was there are two parts to that, the elitist poetry and you know, the artistic group and then the general. Public kids that adopted some of the you know. So, living in Toronto and the 666768, the Yorkville Village which is now like one of the most expensive areas of the city was where all the coffee houses were. So, we would become weekend. So, what would happen is that you would dress up like a hippie on Saturday and Sunday and go and hang out there. TB: And then go back home and transform into the regular person. TV: Yeah, you know, so I think that was it, but no. But I think The Beatles helped and The Rolling Stones helped; the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah, they helped the post war generation to accept that the transition had been made. And in particular, when Boston Symphony and some of these orchestra started playing classical versions of Beatles songs, because previous to that, that the afterward generation, this is trash, this is garbage. It isn't even music. Well, we're in Arthur Fiedler started incorporating Beatles songs into his Sunday concerts, and they started playing that on the radio. All of a sudden that generation of my parents were saying, well, really TB: What about the relationship between music and dancing? Did your parents have an issue with dancing? TV: I think dancing is every generation. I think it's accepted by every generation. You have to keep up with the changes in dancers. I don't think dancers big as with music, right? Like I think it's an accepted thing that you've got to dance the latest dance craze that's part of dancing. TB: Did they feel that rock'n'roll was connected to sexuality in some ways, like there was a joke in in Michigan that you didn't have sex standing up because it could lead to dancing, like the ministers would forget if you promote. TV: Yeah, but isn't that the whole in the United States, the whole thing about, you know, black music bleeding juristic and I don't think we have that in Canada. I don't think that because you know, like Tian, Warwick and the Motown sound and all that that, you know, I was brought up in Toronto and yeah, it's we worship that. TB: Yeah. TV: And there was not a problem with. Don't think that or with Elvis. Maybe with Elvis Presley? From what I've read, you know the hips and all that sort of thing at the very beginning. Yeah, maybe that was a big issue, but that was sort of a little bit before, before my time. TB: Did you listen to funk music during those times? TV; What did I listen to? I'm trying to what I listened to was Bob Dylan here on campus and remember having his records, Neil Young, we worshipped because he just came out with his two big albums, right TB: Harvest? TV: That was the later one. Canada's Gordon Lightfoot. But definitely which rock wise it would have been Alice to be cool, right? So, you know, I had limited music experience in Toronto. So coming here, I learned to love Alice Cooper. You know that that type of thing, but just to get back to dancing and, you know, I don't wanna the sidetrack. TB: So you're saying about, we know, did did older generations present the changes in dance music and let's put it this way. TV: And when disco came in, I was in high school. Sorry, no, I was at Glendon College at that point. And the discos were in Yorkville as well. So I remember going out with my friends to this disco in Yorkville. And so we show up at this disco. We go into this disco, we get seated and we're ready to go on the dance floor.Lo and behold, my mother and father are dancing on the dance floor. TB: Hmm. TV: Ohh my God, I said. Let's get the hell out of here. I think it was called Applebee's or Apple bums or something like that. Yeah, that's so, I don't think parents. So they want they want to be cool. TBL Just five more minutes. Walk me into Monet’s classroom. How many women are there? How many men? How many people have long hair? What is the class like? TV: OK, so I don't think there were very many women in any of my Canadian history classes that I remember, but it was everybody basically looked the same. I think everyone had long hair. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: Or longish hair and most people were wearing clogs or, you know, it was sort of like it's a thing. TB: how big were the classes? TV: There were maybe 10 people, 11 people. There were a few classes held in a different building where there may have been 20 people at the most. One of the great things about classrooms and courses that you had to take was you had to take philosophy in order to get a history degree. TB: Critical Reasoning? TV: Ohhh my gosh did that come useful in life. Ohh my Lord. Absolutely. And that's what I've always said to people is you can tell the difference between someone who's taken philosophy and is university educated in someone who is just high school educated, because when you get into a discussion with somebody who hasn't been in university, everything they talk about was from personal experience. I saw I did. I heard my friend. TB: Did you know somebody from university? TV: Its ideas OK, it's not at all based on personal experience. You take an idea from somewhere and then you incorporate it into your argument or your discussion. It's very, very rarely is it based on personal experience, but yet people who don't have that benefit of that post secondary education are very much restricted to the real physical world. What they've experienced, what they've seen, that's the limit to their discussion. TB: Did you, when you were on campus, did you go to high culture places like the Arts Center, the cinemas? TV: Yes, that would go to the to the Art Center to see all of the French singers and this little church on the corner. TB: Sacre Coeur TV: So I could OK it burned down in 1978. I think when it was still going when I was here. They had a little coffee club in the basement. All and, you know French Canadian artists had a very limited area for gigs. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: And they're, you know, and they didn't earn all that much money. So all of the famous Quebec singers would come to this levia cloche, it was called, and they would sing in the basement. So, it was like money from that generation money clairac, he said. They'll Pierre and explode, Claude debois. Robert charlebois. And you know, so, you know, all these French singers and some absolutely. TB: Yeah. TV: And the running anglophones friends know those as well or yes, because the yeah, even the notorious gang, we would go down to, we would go, we we would go to that. But I was sort of the Francophile, leading the group, right? So, even once I graduated, when I was living here in Ottawa with my anglophone friends, I was always the guy who would say, OK, you know, Salvatore Adamo, you know, Saki is coming to the CNA. We've got to go and see him. Aznavour is coming. They called is coming. We must go and see, you know, even if you never heard of him, is important to go and see, right. TB: Yeah., I mean, you're gonna be a big star here. TV: I don't really. TBL You got you got us into some really important topics, TV: But definitely, you know, if you're talking about women and sexism, it was very much evident. TV: Umm. TB: In the values that that time, unfortunately, and I don't know what and again I'm trying to think, I don't think there were very many very many. I don't think there was a single history for Canadian history professor who was a female. No, at that particular time and the students who were talking less than 10%. Yeah. TV: And I I did have the only female professor that I had during my two years here . . I I took a course in Canadian literature which you believe it. She was from Dallas, TX with a heavy Texas accent and she said alright folks, you know this time of year I'd be at the Cotton Bowl and the Sun would be shining and and you know, blah blah blah. And now let's open our books and turn to page 59. We're gonna study a poem by Al Purdy. And you know what? And then I want you to read the poem on page 9 to 5. Leonard Cohen. Yeah, it was really interesting to have an American from. I don't know what she's doing. You know how she ended up studying Canadian literature? TB: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 95% of Canadians didn't even know who else heard he was at that point. Right? So yeah, so definitely even within faculty, there seemed to be a big lack of females and it could be the religious background at that point of the a lot of Jesus, the Jesuit tradition, classical studies at that point. But I tell you this university is fantastic. And I am so proud of it. I want, you know, I'm supporting it because it is contributing a lot and just walk along. Go to the cafeteria. Look at the young people you know. I was talking to a few of them yesterday when we were having lunch and you know there one guy was studied kinetics. I don't know, I think this is like chemistry, engineering or whatever it is, TB: It's human kinetics? TV: Yeah. So I said to him, I said, what in hell’s name do you wanna do with kinetics? And you said, well, I'm still trying to figure that one out. TB: Yeah, it's like movement at the body. TV: OK, there these electrical shocks and no, it has to do TB: Like we're kind of biomechanical wrecks cause we don't walk properly and everything else. TV: So, he could get into like sports fitness or something like that makes. TB: yeah. TV: Well, listen, I hope that I haven't. insulted anyone. Personally, I haven't mentioned names. -END INTERVIEW Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vares, Thomas (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about growing up in an Estonian family in postwar Toronto, moving to Ottawa to pursue a fascination with francophone language and culture, and the wild experiences of the first year of study as well as nurturing environment of the Department of History. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-11-10 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-M39RtSf81k?si=NhAqWguW1AbmYX9Z" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Canadian History Dorms Gender Hippies Party Culture Popular Music Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Student Life University of Ottawa