1 10 8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sunstrum, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed B, M Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (via phone call) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Emily: Okay, so section 1 of the interview revolves around the impact of popular culture at the time. So, within the society that you were living in at the time what were electronics like during the 1970’s? How was your leisure time structured? Or what did most students at Oxford do for fun in the 1970s? MB: Well, of course there's no Internet. There's lots of sports and different clubs like, you know, drama club and I mean there was a sort of religious club. The Oxford University Debating Society was very famous. I didn't participate in that sort of organized stuff. We would go to the movies and concerts, lots of concerts. Live music and classical music, not rock music. Of course, the Beetles were really big at the time, they came from the place of England that I had gone to school. Actually, when I was in elementary school, just before I went off to boarding school, the Beetles were just starting out so that would be 1962 and they would come to the village fairs and sing. I would see the Beetles live; I was about 3 feet away. But then they became so big we could never afford to go to their concerts or anything like that. We didn’t watch TV or anything like that. Emily: Yeah, that sounds good. What were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus? MB: There were lots of pubs at Oxford. But also, there's about 35 colleges at Oxford, there is no sort of university building, and each college would have its sort of bar and dining hall and library and stuff like that. Depending on your cluster of friends at the time you hang out at your college or their college, not many people wanted to hang out at the women’s colleges. The colleges were all single sex at the time except for one, it had just become coed. I was in one of the five women's colleges and there were 30odd men's colleges and some were more prestigious than others. Mine was the most prestigious of the women’s colleges and the men's colleges. There were about 5 or 6 really sort of really ancient but kind of like the place that Prime Ministers went to. So, people from my college tended to date people from those colleges. And there were lots of dances and balls and stuff. When I say balls, I mean you dressed up in black tie, sometimes white tie and women wore evening gowns. Emily: Okay, that’s cool. OK. So, you kind of talked a little bit about this. My next question is, did you attend any live music events during your university years? MB: Yes. So that would be. Chamber music, orchestral music, choral music. I participated in a choir. Just remembered. And we would later on we would, I started going into London. I lived quite a cosmopolitan life; I had never been into London until I started dating an American. And he was studying English, so he wanted to go to all the future he possibly could. So, we would go into London sometimes three times a week to go to, you know, West End theatre or opera or concerts of some sort, you know, classical concerts. Emily: OK, cool. Yeah, that does sound cool. So, my next question is, we use the term “party culture” to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: Well, there's kind of two types. There's the very serious students, you know, sort of nerdy types. And then there's the people like Boris Johnson. Imagine Boris Johnson. Not the least bit atypical. And that goes back to probably the Middle Ages. They had this sort of heavy drinking and throwing people into the river and stuff like that. I'm sort of straddling the two because for one thing there were the proportion of women was very low. So, it's about seven guys to every woman in the university mostly. Especially the ones that went to the sort of prestigious colleges didn’t want to be getting in touch with a potential date and being told “oh sorry I have to study” “I have to finish my lab”. So there are lots of art colleges, you know, people could study art, history, whatever, but it wasn't part of the university. So, these colleges became known for providing the competition to female students. To the point (6:32) where, you know, I’d go to a party with my friends and people would say “where are you” they’d say and you would say “Oh I’m at college” which is very sort of neutral. And they pressed and would say “oh well which college” and then if you said, “well I’m going to ‘the college I went to’” and then they would start looking over your shoulder and say, “Oh I just saw Joe, I’ve got to go talk to him” and that was the end of that conversation. It was a whole, it was a very, somewhat divided sort of feeling. And it’s true, if you wanted to, you know, get your work done, you obviously had to take some time out. But it was definitely a party culture. Some of those young men would go to, they had a club which did not include women where they would go and eat fabulous food because the different colleges had wonderful chefs and then they would drink on ancient port which was in the college cellars. And start throwing oranges at 20 century portraits in the dining hall. You could imagine (8:14) it was not all prim and proper. By the way, King Charles was at Cambridge all this time so lots of people were going back and forth. This is probably too much information, I'm just remembering back how it was lots of fun, extremely creative, extremely stimulating intellectually, we met so many interesting people. So many interesting people would come and give lectures. We were just coming out of the deprivations of World War 2, about 25 years since the war had ended. It was a really really depressed society after that, lots of building going on and things started to settle down in the 70s. That’s around the time Britain on its second effort joined the European economic community(10:04), which they have since left. But it's hard to imagine going from really destroyed major towns close to where my family was living at the time, like Liverpool and Manchester. I mean Liverpool was just completely, chunks of it were flattened, burning. Emily: OK, so my next question is what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? MB: Well, I think initially, it was a very conservative place, Oxford. Lots of people's parents were sort of establishment figures, and you know, stockbrokers and bankers and stuff like that. And you know, my old father was an industrialist. And so, they were horrified by the threat of communism and stuff like that. So. I think initially it was sort of, well, let those guys get on with it, but they should be doing bad things. But we shouldn't intervene. But then very quickly, the student body, certainly as the defining thing that happened right before I went off to university was the movement in France (12:31) and Germany and in the Eastern European countries as trying to throw over government and become equitable and especially stop the war. So, there was a huge engagement in the May of 68 riots in France that sort of shut everything down and Germany and so on. Lots of radical movements. So, a wind has started to build at Oxford, and we actually did have some marches and demonstrations and we found out that the deans of the different colleges and also sort of leadership of the university were identifying students who might be good candidates for let's say MI5 or the spy agency and they were forwarding information to these services and saying “oh you might want to interview this person or that person” and that person would get invited to London to have a nice conversation. Of course, we were horrified that the university authorities were sending information to try to identify students who were good candidates without their permission or consent. So, that was the rallying cry at Oxford, of course some of those people went on to work with allies like the United States, which could of course get themselves involved in the war. The cold war was in full swing and that by the way was a terrifying thing that was always around us, sort of equivalent to the climate change crisis today. And a lot of the students were activists against nuclear arms, so people used to go on marches to you know, ban the bomb. My parents took me to visit a boarding school when they were looking for a good school to send me too and it was a very famous school and known for its academics and stuff like that and nice buildings, walking around like a college tour. And then my mother said, “but where are all the girls”, the teacher said, “they're in London at a ban the bomb march”. And it was a quaker school (15:47), run by quaker and they were pro-peace so my parents said “oh we can’t send our daughter there”. But yes the attitude of the Vietnam war, the circles that I ended up in, were very much against the war. But it took a while for me too, it was very hard to sort of when you’ve heard for years this very negative view of students, I mean in the family, of students to rise up and say we should do this, we shouldn’t do this. To sort of switch to the, when we went on marches there were TV cameras and I sort of said “oh what if my father sees me on TV” then I just stopped worrying about it. I don’t think he ever did. Emily: So, my next question for this section is Rock and Roll artists in the 1960s promoted various forms of protest. Was Rock and Roll becoming popular within this society that you were living in? And if so, did your parents see Rock and Roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? MB: They probably thought it was rebellious, but I went to boarding school, I didn’t really live at home much after I was 10. I just saw them on Holidays but also sometimes I went to Holidays somewhere else. So, in a sense we got to make up our own minds, initially I didn’t like the Beetles at all. I would sort of run into them at those village fairs (17:45) and then, I remember, in the summer of 63’ or spring of 63’ we went to this village festival and they would crown the rose queen every year and it was usually a little girl like 14 or something like that and she had little page boys who were much younger and she was dressed in this sort of beautiful queen dress with a velvet cape. And the Beetles started setting up over where they had the stage and amps and stuff like that, and the crowd started to rush over there, and they trampled over the train of the rose queen. I was just horrified; I was very anti Beetles for a couple of years and after that I liked them. I remember for my birthday one year my parents took me to the Beetles movie “Help” that came out, it was pre-made I guess in Liverpool, so we went to go see it. So, in that sense they were supportive, “what movie would you like to see? Ok the Beetles, let's do that then.” But I didn’t have a radio, my sister who was a bit younger, acquired a portable radio, I should have mentioned, that’s probably more like the electronics of the era. But she would do all her homework, everything, going to bed at night, she had to have this radio on and people in the family did not like it. I couldn’t imagine having the radio going when you’re trying to work on something. So that’s another part of the evolution. Emily: OK. That's my next question is some youth culture. Voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent were drugs available at Oxford during the 1970s? MB: I don’t know how widespread it was. I became aware of drugs when I became aware of Americans. Oxford has this program called road scholarships and students came from commonwealth countries and also the United States (20:26) and Canada but because the US had the biggest pool of students, they always had the largest number of scholarships. So, I became aware of these students who, for the most part, had already graduated, they already had their undergraduate and they were always like 3-4 years older than us, and they were very puerile young men of our cousins of our friends from school who didn’t like dating actual college students, these young men were completely open to that. But some of them had gotten into using drugs in the states and some of them had served in the forces in Vietnam and they would come back and say “we’ve got to end this” so there was quite a bit of it. I never bought it myself, but I did use it a few times. To be honest I’d be quite happy to use it but it made me paranoid that it was the drugs that was doing it, not me. That’s a side effect that some people experience. There was lots of booze. Emily: Right, ok. That’s all for the first section. So. Now we're moving on to the second section, which is the female experience. So, my main question for this section is culture. Cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism, that as part of the counterculture movement. Women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Oxford campus during the 1970s? MB: Absolutely. can I just do a parenthesis and go back a bit Because this reminds me of the student movements and the the radicalism that was building up on other campuses, I would say partly triggered by the Vietnam War, which is all part of the Cold War. The thing that really changed my view happened between when I graduated high school and I've already been admitted to Oxford, and I spend a few months off and started at Oxford in the fall of 69’. There was a Czech student who burned themself to death and it was all about the, sorry I hope that’s not triggering for you Emily: No, that’s okay. MB: The communist Eastern European countries that were under the Soviet domination started to rise up (23:46) in Czechoslovakia in particular had what was called a Prague spring. They were moving more into representative democracy or trying too throughout 1968 and I was completely unaware of that and then this young man, that seemed like my age I actually don’t know how old he was, in January of 69’ so it’s before we went off to France and he burned himself to death. And from that moment, he was protesting the Soviet occupation which was still gradually wiping out the liberal experiment of the Prague spring. And that got me into thinking more about politics and economics as well and then I went to France and lived there for 9 months until university started. I was doing an internship in a chemical firm. And the student people that I started hanging around with were having a lot of activisms on the anniversary of the events of May, 68’ so May of 69’ they had general strikes and so on and it all succeeded forcing the President to resign. So that was also an activated moment that got me thinking about how politics work and I was a very nerdy science student. I was trying to go up to Oxford to read engineering and I was starting to get cold feet about engineering, so I ended up doing physics but by the time I became activated or engaged, I eventually took my high degree of math's and moved over into economics, politics and philosophy where I went into economics. But there was a feminist side to that, in that it was very unusual for women to even do pure science much less engineering. Only one other girl entered to do engineering (26:20) at the same time I did, but of course I dropped it and switched to physics and became the first woman in the history of Britain to become to head of the Engineers association of Britain and this was like 10 years ago. Thats how unequal things were for women at the time and of course it persisted and it's still persisting like we’ve had more women prime ministers for example. I was lucky that I went to an all-girls school so there was no negative thought through the school of doing science, other people would say things like “oh she should be careful because it's hard to be in a lab with just men”. But the other big thing we did during my time at Oxford, so 69’-74’, we gradually pushed and pushed, this was in between sort of major world type movements and individual actions like this idea to become a schoolteacher, so this middling thing at the university level, we pushed to get more colleges to become co-ed. Rach college had its own rules so it happened very gradually, I think most of them are co-ed now. But they would say things like, we had staff, cleaning staff that would come and make up people's rooms and the deans would say “we can't possibly have co-ed colleges because men and women would sleep together”. If the staff came in in the morning and found a man and woman in the same bed, then they would quit so they couldn’t keep the staff. After a bit somebody said, “well maybe we don’t need to go in the bedrooms” and then the answers were (29:13) “well the staff are there to make sure there aren't any young men in your room”, it took a while to get that changed. And the same thing was happening at the time in the US in the ivy league, I don’t know if the dorms at U of O might have been going through the same thing, whether or not they should have co-ed residences. One of our heroes for women and men by the way from American university was Angela Davis. She was a very left-wing activist in the US, and she was jailed at the time, and it was to do with having guns and trials and stuff like that and she became one of our heroes. One of our marches was about free Angela Davis, I think at one point she may have come later on when she was released in 72’, she came and lectured at Oxford. Emily: So, gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. So how did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events? MB: I kind of alluded to a whole bunch, do you want me to repeat some of it? Emily: You don't have to repeat it all, but just a little bit of a summary would be good (31:06). MB: Yeah, ok. Well, all but one of the residential colleges of about 35 were single sex, the proportion of women on the university campus was very low and the anecdote about when you would go to social events, many of the men had gone to similar high schools and were the same age as us and in our same classes didn’t particularly want to date women confronting the same work load, deadlines and things that they were. So, we ended up drifting towards grad students or maybe Americans or Canadians. And we were very active on the topic of making things co-ed, you had to enroll in the college, its not like choosing your dorm after you’ve been accepted so if you were in a particiular college you would discover that it was very strict on keeping men and women separate. People used to do things like siging in and out of college, they had these gate hours that the staff had to monitor. So my college closed at 11 so you knew you had to be back inside by 11 o’clock. If you knew you had something that was going to end later, you could sign out a key, but it was really a big deal. What people would do is they would climb over the walls, sometimes injuring themselves, a couple people were killed, probably they were drunk, but they wanted to get in and out so that’s what they would do. Or they stayed out all night. Emily: So, my next question then is in the 1970s were there programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? MB: I'm not really aware of any. I know that some of my contemporaries, from school age contemporary, not a classmate but somebody I knew, went onto to become the first woman president of the Oxford debating union society but I can't even remember when that was (33:58), it happened after I left. But we certainly were aware of women who graduated from Oxford went onto political success in their respective country so like the first woman Prime Minister anywhere I think had gone to Oxford. Margaret Thatcher went to Oxford, actually the 3 woman PMs were all conservative interesting enough and they all went to Oxford. Emily: So that's it for the feminism section. My next question has to do with ideology and generational differences. So, historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents' generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? (35:51) MB: I mean that would be 100% what was going through my mind at the time. I started off as a very focused on a very technical career and I mean I have to say my father was an engineer so that was partly the only role model I had. But that meant lots of very serious studying and you didn’t do much reading around other things and then I became engaged in the particular incidents gradually. We weren’t really in our families you know, so it wasn’t a case of going home every evening or week or month or something and having to argue this stuff out with your parents. You could carry on with your own way of thinking, form your own ideas. I mean they were very interested; I don’t want to make it out that they were not interested in these kinds of things, but they weren’t particularly day to day observing whether you skipped classes or whatever. The good thing is you didn’t have to go to lectures there, the key thing is having tutorials one on one and working on a research project and preparing that with your tutor. I would start every single term planning to go to lectures because there were so many interesting ones but then I would get so much work on my plate (37:39), I had my social life and my activism that I didn’t have time to go to lectures. Because it wasn’t obligatory, that was the one thing that was sort of laid back. I did work in mini-shorts and stuff like that, flower child clothes and certainly the young conservative clubs where people like Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May and Liz Truss were making their mark. But they were very serious political wonks, so they weren’t going to go dressing up like flower children, they were all suits and ties and stuff like that. Of course, when we went to dances and balls, we were all elegantly dressed. Emily: OK, so then my next question is to what extent did your generation believe that your parents' notion about gender family dating were outdated? MB: Well, I guess I probably did feel that, I didn’t really confront them, but I did leave Britain right after I finished all the various bits of studying that I did there, and I didn’t go back for a decade. And it was really because I began to be aware, especially well young men, because road scholarships at that time were only open to men. By the way you couldn’t be married to accept a road scholarship. There were all kinds of romances that had originated from these ivy league universities or whatever universities were sending those. And they had to put off their plans for over a year if they wanted a scholarship but then they would meet their eventual wives and they would come over and then I realized these kind had a much more equal relationship than I thought other people, my parents, my aunts and uncles and so on, their relationship did not seem to be so equal and I thought wow there's a certain respect here, they could open their own banking account, I had to get my father to open my account for me. And, you know, I really thought the US (40:11), I was watching what was happening with water gate that was opening up, the protest against the Vietnam war and the water gate breaking and I don’t know if you’ve been looking but it was just the 50th anniversary recently, it was just amazing to see that unfolding and then when they moved to the US, it was actually the first year I was living there, was a combination of water gate and the resignation of Britain in 1974. It was just to me, the most dramatic thing that the government could be, I've seen that happen in France with the goal it 69’ and here it was France was even more socially stratified in gender imbalance society than Britain. But I thought wow you could have really a self-respecting career or life in this place. And I remember my mother saying to me, “but don’t you realize that all these men that you met who are American or Canadian at Oxford are the best of the best, the people that you'll find there are probably not very friendly or feminist or very welcoming to women” and at first I thought yes that’s a good point but then I thought well actually the young men that I met that were British were also supposed to be the best of the best and I was finding them wanting so I thought guess I'll try so I did. Of course, there's lots more nuance to American politics and British politics and French politics. Emily: So yeah, so, my next question is, did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the citizen's needs? MB: In Britain? Emily: Yes, when you were in university in the 1970s MB: No, not at all, I felt that it was extremely trapped in ancient stereotypes, some of those things were very obvious in the single sex colleges and schools. The famous schools don’t accept co-ed students either. But the economy was clearly very biased towards men (42:51). I mean I quite enjoyed when I was still thinking I was going to be an engineer, my father eventually came around and thought it was kind of a neat thing so he started finding out if there was anything that could show yiung women what it might be like to be an engineer. So, like a winter program of two weeks at a university, sort of a lab or an internship or something, so he found a few things like that. I quite liked being the only, or one of two women in those programs, you know you get a lot of attention. And I don’t mean sexual attention, it was just the idea that “here they are doing all their stuff” and then I would stick up my hand say something, and they would all listen but then quite often just carry on what they were doing before. Anyway, it was yes. These things go in lurches I've of course discovered since then, those political changes and economic, I won't say equality, but justice shall we say. Emily: OK, so then, looking back at the 1970s, what aspects of your society did you see as the most out of whack and in need of fixing? (44:19) MB: Sorry what aspects of the time seemed out of whack? Emily: Yes, like when you were in university MB: Well, I think the gender imbalances and the fact that political action was concentrated in very small, tight, circles. I mean Bill Clinton was there when I was at Oxford, I think Hillary too. I didn’t know them though, but these people were all floating around, creating their own establishment. But to me watching the televised hearing of how I saw it was a very good exercise in democracy and seeing how lawyers, a lot of whose assistants were people I had been studying with, to being assistant to the prosecutors. Really opened things up but now of course you look back on that and sort of say “well you know, Jim Jordan holds hearings and it's just a political rant you know”. So, it's things lurch and sometimes they go back, 2 steps forward you hope, 1 and a half steps back. Emily: So, I have one more section for you. Um. And my first question is cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. Do you agree with this statement? MB: I'm not sure I agree with all of it but certainly I'm not aware of any of my little group of friends that was not on the pill (46:26). I think there were probably many that were Catholics and were not but in my circle. Everyone knew there was a particular place you could go for abortions; I don’t remember when it became legalized, I don’t think it was legal at the time in Britain, I don’t think it was legal until after I left, but there was a place you could go. I mean I never used it because the pill is pretty effective. And I think it did make us a little more, I suspect, I mean I don’t have any older brothers, but I suspect it made us a little more free and easy about dating. By the way we werent completely subject to exactly the same sort of para relationships and psychological abuse as others. Emily: Then what did dating look like on campus in the 1970s? MB: Well, you met people at parties, there's no internet, and we called them cattle market and that’s where people would look at you and go “oh my god you go to college, you’re a university student oh nah”. They preferred to date people that didn’t have other commitments, they wanted to be able to decide when to go on a date and not be told that they had to do a paper or a project or lab or something like that. You know people did pair up, they had their relationships and some of them got married right after university so that was in a sense very 1950’s conventional. I went through a whole phase “oh I'm never going to get married” and then I mean they guy I did marry; I'm still married to (49:02), I met him when I went to Alberta and I thought I was just moving there briefly but I've been here in Canada ever since, about 45 years ago, sort of a love at first sight paradigm. I certainly left Britain on my own initiative and a couple of guys from the States I had known and even dated at Oxford, they would say things like “I really like you why don’t we just get married” and I kind of said “No, I don’t want to get married”. So, I think that liberated me in a sense that not to get into a situation that would be more complicated than it needed to be. I had lots of issues with the whole 5 years before I lived in the US, I had constantly tried to get my visa extended. Emily: I feel like this kind of ties into a little bit of what you were saying just then but my last question is how did your generation look at family and marriage? MB: Many of us were quite determined not to get married and then later on even when we had got married not to have children. I think you still hear some of that but of course it happened so we kind of changed that for the world. And by the way, I don’t know if this is part of your thinking at all but, gay life at Oxford was extremely well established (51:16) and quite common and that goes back centuries and that’s because it was all male for so long. And profs could not be married so they kept their families outside the city limits or outside the limits of the university jurisdiction but that was only in late 19th century. But you could think people like the guy who wrote “Alice in Wonderland” he was a very typical Oxford prof. And it was I wouldn’t say celebrated, gayness, but it was definitely, and the other thing is because it was World War 2 a lot of the school teachers and I, which happened to be in Oxford had no boyfriends or there weren’t any young men around or maybe they weren’t interested in young men. And so, it was perfectly normal for two women to be living together and my math teacher and gym teacher and on and on and on and you were totally not bothered by it. When I was in my upper classes in high school, I started going to clubs and parties at Oxford events and you'd see certain young men and you’d say, “oh I kind of like that guy” and then a bit later you’d realize “oh he's with this other guy, that’s fine”. It was legalized in Britain in 1968 (53:18) so right away from the time I was at boarding school it was illegal and the when I went to university it was legal. It was certainly a very open... Emily: It was accepted MB: Ya, accepted, that’s a better way of putting it because I'm sure there was a lot of prejudice elsewhere in Britain and probably Cambridge and some of the other universities were very much welcoming and supportive. Emily: Well, that is all the questions that I have for you today. MB: I hope I wasn't too much of a fire hose Emily: No that’s okay, thank you so much for your time (55:17) Transcription Translation Emily : D'accord, la première partie de l'entretien porte sur l'impact de la culture populaire de l'époque. Au sein de la société dans laquelle vous viviez à l'époque, à quoi ressemblait l'électronique dans les années 1970 ? Comment était structuré votre temps libre ? Ou que faisaient la plupart des étudiants d'Oxford pour s'amuser dans les années 1970 ? MB : Bien sûr, il n'y avait pas d'Internet. Il y avait beaucoup de sports et différents clubs comme, vous savez, le club de théâtre et je veux dire qu'il y avait une sorte de club religieux. La Oxford University Debating Society était très célèbre. Je ne participais pas à ce genre d'activités organisées. Nous allions au cinéma et à des concerts, beaucoup de concerts. De la musique live et de la musique classique, pas de la musique rock. Bien sûr, les Beetles étaient très populaires à l'époque, ils venaient de la région d'Angleterre où j'étais allé à l'école. En fait, lorsque j'étais à l'école primaire, juste avant d'aller à l'internat, les Beetles commençaient à peine, c'était en 1962, et ils venaient chanter dans les foires de village. J'ai vu les Beetles en concert ; j'étais à un mètre de distance. Mais ils sont devenus si importants que nous n'avons jamais pu nous permettre d'aller à leurs concerts ou à quoi que ce soit d'autre. Nous ne regardions pas la télévision. Emily : Oui, ça a l'air bien. Quels étaient les endroits les plus populaires sur le campus et en dehors ? MB : Il y avait beaucoup de pubs à Oxford. Mais il y a aussi 35 collèges à Oxford, il n'y a pas de bâtiment universitaire, et chaque collège a son bar, son réfectoire, sa bibliothèque, etc. En fonction de votre groupe d'amis à ce moment-là, vous fréquentez votre collège ou leur collège, mais peu de gens voulaient fréquenter les collèges de femmes. Les universités étaient toutes unisexes à l'époque, à l'exception d'une seule, qui venait de devenir mixte. J'étais dans l'une des cinq universités féminines et il y avait une trentaine d'universités masculines, dont certaines étaient plus prestigieuses que d'autres. La mienne était la plus prestigieuse des universités féminines et masculines. Il y en avait 5 ou 6 qui étaient vraiment très anciens, mais qui ressemblaient un peu à l'endroit où allaient les Premiers ministres. Les gens de mon collège avaient donc tendance à sortir avec des gens de ces collèges. Il y avait beaucoup de danses, de bals et d'autres choses. Quand je parle de bals, je veux dire qu'on s'habillait en cravate noire, parfois en cravate blanche et les femmes portaient des robes de soirée. Emily : D'accord, c'est cool. D'ACCORD. Vous en avez un peu parlé. Ma prochaine question est la suivante : avez-vous assisté à des événements musicaux pendant vos années d'université ? MB : Oui. Je dirais donc que c'est le cas. Musique de chambre, musique orchestrale, musique chorale. J'ai participé à une chorale. Je m'en souviens. Plus tard, j'ai commencé à aller à Londres. Je vivais une vie assez cosmopolite ; je n'étais jamais allée à Londres jusqu'à ce que je sorte avec un Américain. Et comme il étudiait l'anglais, il voulait aller dans tous les futurs qu'il pouvait. Nous allions donc à Londres parfois trois fois par semaine pour aller au théâtre du West End, à l'opéra ou à des concerts classiques. Emily : OK, cool. Oui, ça a l'air cool. Ma question suivante est la suivante : nous utilisons le terme " culture de la fête " pour désigner les activités sociales en dehors de la salle de classe. Comment décririez-vous la culture de la fête à Oxford dans les années 1970 ? MB : Eh bien, il y a deux types d'étudiants. Il y a les étudiants très sérieux, les intellos. Et puis il y a les gens comme Boris Johnson. Imaginez Boris Johnson. Pas le moins du monde atypique. Et cela remonte probablement au Moyen-Âge. Les gens buvaient beaucoup, jetaient les gens dans les rivières, etc. Je suis en quelque sorte à cheval entre les deux parce que, d'une part, la proportion de femmes était très faible. Il y a environ sept hommes pour une femme à l'université. En particulier, celles qui allaient dans des universités prestigieuses ne voulaient pas entrer en contact avec une fille potentielle et se faire dire "oh, désolé, je dois étudier" "je dois finir mon labo". Il existe donc de nombreuses écoles d'art, où l'on peut étudier l'art, l'histoire ou autre chose, mais qui ne font pas partie de l'université. C'est ainsi que ces écoles sont devenues célèbres pour la concurrence qu'elles offraient aux étudiantes. À tel point que, lorsque j'allais à une fête avec mes amis, les gens me demandaient "Où es-tu ?" et vous répondiez "Oh, je suis à l'université", ce qui est tout à fait neutre. Ils insistaient et disaient "Oh, quelle université" et si vous répondiez "Eh bien, je vais à l'université où je suis allé", ils commençaient à regarder par-dessus votre épaule et disaient "Oh, je viens de voir Joe, il faut que j'aille lui parler" et c'était la fin de la conversation. C'était un sentiment très, très divisé. Et c'est vrai, si vous vouliez, vous savez, faire votre travail, vous deviez évidemment prendre un peu de temps pour vous. Mais c'était vraiment une culture de la fête. Certains de ces jeunes hommes se rendaient dans un club qui n'incluait pas de femmes, où ils allaient manger des plats fabuleux parce que les différents collèges avaient de merveilleux chefs, puis ils buvaient du porto ancien qui se trouvait dans les caves des collèges. Et ils commençaient à jeter des oranges sur des portraits du 20ème siècle dans le réfectoire. Vous pouvez imaginer que tout n'était pas rose et correct. D'ailleurs, le roi Charles était à Cambridge pendant tout ce temps, si bien que beaucoup de gens allaient et venaient. C'est probablement trop d'informations, mais je me souviens simplement que c'était très amusant, très créatif, très stimulant intellectuellement, et que nous avons rencontré tant de gens intéressants. Nous avons rencontré tant de personnes intéressantes. Tant de personnes intéressantes venaient donner des conférences. Nous sortions tout juste des privations de la Seconde Guerre mondiale, environ 25 ans après la fin de la guerre. La société était vraiment très déprimée après cela, il y avait beaucoup de constructions en cours et les choses ont commencé à se calmer dans les années 70. C'est à cette époque que la Grande-Bretagne, pour son deuxième effort, a rejoint la Communauté économique européenne, qu'elle a quittée depuis. Mais il est difficile d'imaginer la destruction des grandes villes proches de l'endroit où ma famille vivait à l'époque, comme Liverpool et Manchester. Je veux dire que Liverpool a été complètement détruite, des pans entiers de la ville ont été rasés, brûlés. Emily : D'accord, alors ma question suivante est : que pensait le corps étudiant de la guerre du Vietnam ? MB : Eh bien, je pense qu'au départ, c'était un endroit très conservateur, Oxford. Les parents de beaucoup de gens étaient des figures de l'establishment, des agents de change, des banquiers, etc. Et vous savez, mon père était un industriel. Ils étaient donc horrifiés par la menace du communisme et ce genre de choses. Donc. Je pense qu'au départ, c'était un peu comme si on laissait ces gens faire ce qu'ils voulaient, mais qu'ils devaient faire de mauvaises choses. Mais nous ne devrions pas intervenir. Mais très vite, le corps étudiant, certainement parce que la chose déterminante qui s'est produite juste avant que je n'entre à l'université a été le mouvement en France et en Allemagne et dans les pays d'Europe de l'Est pour essayer de se débarrasser du gouvernement et de devenir équitable, et surtout d'arrêter la guerre. Les émeutes de mai 68 en France, qui ont en quelque sorte tout bloqué, ainsi qu'en Allemagne et dans d'autres pays, ont été l'occasion d'un engagement considérable. Beaucoup de mouvements radicaux. Nous avons découvert que les doyens des différents collèges et la direction de l'université identifiaient les étudiants susceptibles d'être de bons candidats pour le MI5 ou l'agence d'espionnage, par exemple, et qu'ils transmettaient des informations à ces services en disant : "Oh, vous voudrez peut-être interviewer telle ou telle personne" et que cette personne était invitée à Londres pour avoir une conversation agréable. Bien sûr, nous étions horrifiés que les autorités universitaires envoient des informations pour tenter d'identifier les étudiants qui étaient de bons candidats sans leur permission ou leur consentement. C'était donc le cri de ralliement à Oxford, et bien sûr, certaines de ces personnes sont allées travailler avec des alliés comme les États-Unis, qui pouvaient bien sûr s'impliquer dans la guerre. La guerre froide battait son plein et c'était d'ailleurs une chose terrifiante qui nous entourait en permanence, une sorte d'équivalent de la crise du changement climatique aujourd'hui. Beaucoup d'étudiants militaient contre l'armement nucléaire et organisaient des marches pour interdire la bombe. Mes parents m'ont emmenée visiter un internat lorsqu'ils cherchaient une bonne école où m'envoyer. Il s'agissait d'une école très réputée, connue pour ses études et d'autres choses du même genre, avec de beaux bâtiments, où l'on se promenait comme dans une visite d'université. Et puis ma mère a dit, "mais où sont toutes les filles", le professeur a répondu, "elles sont à Londres à une marche pour l'interdiction des bombes". C'était une école de quakers, dirigée par des quakers et ils étaient pour la paix, alors mes parents ont dit "oh, nous ne pouvons pas envoyer notre fille là-bas". Mais oui, l'attitude à l'égard de la guerre du Viêt Nam, les cercles dans lesquels je me suis retrouvée, étaient très opposés à la guerre. Mais il m'a fallu un certain temps pour que, après avoir entendu pendant des années cette vision très négative des étudiants, je veux dire dans la famille, les étudiants se lèvent et disent que nous devrions faire ceci, que nous ne devrions pas faire cela. Lorsque nous avons participé à des marches, il y avait des caméras de télévision et je me suis dit "Oh, et si mon père me voyait à la télévision", puis j'ai cessé de m'en préoccuper. Je ne pense pas qu'il l'ait jamais fait. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B, M (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonal about the life on campus of Oxford University in the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-26 1970s Abortion Dating Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Discrimination Generational Differences Hippies Oxford, England Physics Popular Music Protest Queer Sexuality Student Life The Pill Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erik Galama Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed G. George Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Erik Galama 0:15 It’s the 21 of October the date or the time I should say is 1:15. I am, I the interviewer Erik Galama And I'm interviewing George over teams for the life on campus project. So let's get started. Alright. So. Ah, where do I put? There's questions. Alright, so is the first topic we are going over is pop culture. So the. The main Category here is or I say the main question is, cultural historians have argued that the television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles has created a more integral North American popular culture. Um, as Ottawa or University of Ottawa is a bilingual institution? The purpose is questions are to better understand how anglophones and francophones relate together. So the first question here is um. So there was less electronics in Canada society in the 1970s compared to today. How was a leisure time structured? Or how did OttawaU use students or what do use students do for fun in that time period? George 1:40 That's the question? Erik Galama 1:42 Yeah. So. George 1:42 Do for fun. Erik Galama 1:44 Yep, first one. Yeah, for fun. So what, what was the like? What how was your leisure time structured? What was it built around? Was it? I cause this was television still came more popular around this time. Most people would've had one. So was it built around? That was the other things. George 2:09 (illegible) is always part of society nowadays or at that time too. Think work was also very important leisure time because I didn't have time for leisure time at university and then basically I work and I study. So I didn't have a lot of real quality leisure time available to myself. Erik Galama 2:27 So you would say it's at least was for you was mostly structure around work and there wouldn't be a lot of time just for leisure. George 2:37 Exactly exactly. I had to pay for my education, right? So I've been working basically all the time that I have free and then I have to study as well. So it's. There was a much leisure time, as if we're called leisure time. Erik Galama 2:51 All right, for follow up is that I'm so first the on campus itself. If there was time, to be hanging out and stuff, what would be the most popular spots to people would be hanging out on or off campus? George 3:09 If I hung out It would be. It would have been on campus because it would have been. Probably near where my classes were being held. Would that be with my colleagues waiting them. Talk. Whatever is, are sticking to the corner 30 minutes away or something like that. Not as far as going outside the campus area, no. Erik Galama 3:28 No. OK. George 3:29 No. Erik Galama 3:30 Uh, so next question, I don't know how much is applies to you, but during your years at university, did you ever attend a live musical event? George 3:40 No. Erik Galama 3:40 No. Uh, where's your many are in Ottawa at that time for you to even attend if you wanted to. George 3:49 Don't think I don't really recall like live ones? No, no. Erik Galama 3:53 OK. George 3:53 I think the UFT had a couple of smaller ones like some. like in the cafeteria or something. A small local like a student band or something like that, but that, that, that would be the closest to live entertain. Erik Galama 4:07 All right. Um, so OttawaU uses to be bilingual or is bilingual institution. Um. That. I. Sorry, that question was written in broken English. Oh yeah, so basically because OttawaU is a bilingual institution. There's many. There's a bunch of mixing in francophones and anglophones because they rolled the same university and courses. How much was like how? How much was there mixing between anglophones and francophones? Or were they quite separate apart? George 4:48 That's a good question. What I could tell? I mean my classes were filled with both anglophones and francophones. I don't really think it was really that easy to distinguish the two. They seemed to I I'm I'm basically anglophone, right? So I don't speak French. Maybe. It was a different, but the people I saw met or you got along pretty good together ang francophones. Erik Galama 5:16 Alright, so you wouldn't say that. There was like noticeable like separation between the two groups. George 5:24 I did not see that. No, no. Erik Galama 5:26 OK. Next question actually relate to that is, did anglophones and francophones ever date each other? George 5:35 You'd have to ask them individually, I guess, right? Erik Galama 5:38 Yeah, fair enough. Well, from your own perspectives, did you see that? George 5:41 that I don't, that I don't have any ideas. Erik Galama 5:44 Then it is alright. Um. So in modern terms, to, we used the term party culture to refer to social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the party culture on university of ottawa during the 70s if you could? George 6:01 First, I lived off at, at home, right? So that was like it's now work transit every day. About 2 hours back one way and those days. So I didn't have much time at all to partake in the party culture. Well there was party culture there, but I didn't take part. I just have to the time. Erik Galama 6:04 All right. George 6:17 How? How big it was? I don't really know. But there I know people that that's, that's all they talk about. But that would be the minority. Erik Galama 6:25 OK. Um. Next is, so I during actually when you're at the university, the Vietnam War would be over. But generally speaking, how would you see the student body over like idea of the Vietnam War was it? And like, how prevalent was anywhere that person? So how did the student body when you where there, view the Vietnam War or is the anti-war movement? George 7:00 I don't recall it in my time period at all. Erik Galama 7:03 No. George 7:03 not a lot of university, no. doesn’t seem part of the conversation. But what I saw, maybe there's some people that are more involved in that and talking about it in their groups and even more to. not into the people that are associated with. Erik Galama 7:18 Alright. George 7:20 I think I think it was before my time at university anyway, so. Erik Galama 7:20 I. Yeah, it should have been, but I wasn't sure also how much bleed over there was. George 7:27 Yeah. Erik Galama 7:34 Uh. That I so in the 70s, two rock'n'roll started to become more populous and a lot of art, rock and rollers in the 1960s have been promoted, promoted various forms of protest. How did your parents or see rock roll as a rebellious like former music? Or was it just a form of popular music? George 8:02 They didn't like it. I thought it was really poor quality and looking like the old music which people involved, right or technical skills and stuff like that. They didn't like it. I don't think they looked at as being rebellious. They just they'd like it. Erik Galama 8:17 So they. George 8:17 The other was more like, but then was just yelling and screaming. That's really what it was. I don't think they really think about it being rebellious music or stuff with that. Erik Galama 8:27 So they so they never thought it was rebellious, more as a they just didn't like the sound of it. Would that be correct? George 8:36 I would say I was. I would say that's what it was. Yes, it's not what they grew up with and when it was such a different thing. Yeah. You recognize that people look into that time so. Erik Galama 8:46 Yep. Um, follow-up is so so some culture voices In the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent did recreational drugs availability on campus occur during 1970s? So how common were drugs basically? George 9:07 Was there but. sorts of the people I hung around with. It wasn't not really there. So there's probably a certain sub segments of the student body and not for the cluster body as well, but. If it was not they. Very, very minimal from what I saw. Erik Galama 9:25 Alright, for reference, would you say it's be more as prevalent or less prevalent today, like in just general cult like public? And like culture. George 9:39 Probably probably less, I would say. Erik Galama 9:42 That's alright. George 9:43 Yeah, I think so. But it's it's. It's a tough question. Erik Galama 9:50 Next one sort of relating to the last question was. So in the 70s. psychedelics were coming more common use, to what extent did the students on campus use psychedelic drugs. Or if any? George 10:06 I I. I made it. I've been really answered that question. I mean, I know where stuff out there, but how much I've, you know, I I can't even take a guess at that that would be. Erik Galama 10:12 Yeah. George 10:17 Wrong thing to do. It's so small, small writes up, but maybe there's a whole segment of this to the population that was very heavily involved in it, but I would not in that group. Erik Galama 10:26 OK. Alright, so that is the first section done, which is the impact of popular culture. So this section section we're gonna get onto is the female experience. So as the main question there is. Sorry is. For culture, historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave of feminism. This is part of the counterculture movement and women in the 19 early 1970s sought to breakdown gender barriers during this. Does this argument with your experience, or does this argument resonated with your experience on the campus during the 70s? Um and also basically, do you believe that? There was a large or a noticeable feminist movement on campus. George 11:31 Hmm. Either way, there was some of that you wouldn't say is like really noticeable anything, but you can see people becoming more sensitive to that whole notation. Erik Galama 11:46 Uh, so would you say? It was more prevalent. Like the first few years there or did became more and more common. At the later you're. George 11:57 I don't. I was only there for three years. I was not a perfectionist student like some people, so I can't really. I wanted to try to answer that one. Erik Galama 12:02 Alright. So you wouldn't have any idea if, uh, like so for like the first year is there, you have no clue if was more common than when you're by the time you graduated or left? George 12:15 Yeah, like that was there to study them, went home to work, right. So I'm not socializing with a lot of people at the university, so I can't really property answer that question. Right. I didn't notice. I, I could. I can’t answer that. I didn’t notice the difference. Erik Galama 12:24 All right. OK. And also follow-up to that. The time before you went to university, how would you say it was also common before that? George 12:42 I would say it was about the same. Yeah, that's sort of run that time period, yeah. Erik Galama 12:45 All right. So in your own words, what did feminism like mean to Canada in the early 70s? George 12:59 It was just think it was trying to. Have recalled by of the the sexist or and recognition of the difference, but building equality. Erik Galama 13:10 Alright. George 13:10 A little more respect for each other, I guess is what it comes down to really. Erik Galama 13:14 Hmm. Uh. OK. For two is so in the 70s. Words are programs, apartments, clubs that were at were women were less. Um, represent or less or more and less of compared to other programs. George 13:35 Alright, if I look at the programs that I was in, I'd say it was a. It wasn't really that much difference. I mean, maybe a little bit less women than men, but not really significant amount. Erik Galama 13:47 What program? George 13:48 Such steps, although my studies right, I mean that they go to school to study, didn't go there to going join clubs and stuff like that and have the time for it had to work for my fees to pay processors right to renting the building and stuff. So all I could talk about is my classroom and the classrooms were. Erik Galama 13:53 Yeah. Yeah. George 14:03 Not much difference over people, even distributed. Maybe some less females than males, but not not a significant amount. Erik Galama 14:10 Alright, I around. I would program were you in. So I can just get George, so I. George 14:22 Commerce, commerce. Erik Galama 14:22 Commerce, OK. George 14:24 Yeah. Erik Galama 14:24 So you'd say commerce was around a 50/50 split? George 14:28 Yeah, a little bit less than 50/50, but it wasn't. You're not looking like 80/20 or anything like that no. Erik Galama 14:31 Alright. OK, so it wasn't, it was quite evenly split originally not like a major difference. George 14:39 No, I think it's rounded time when. When we started getting more into those fields like we're talking about the late 70s. Erik Galama 14:44 Hmm. George 14:47 Not the beginning. At the moment, it's the movement already been underway for a while and. Erik Galama 14:52 OK, I. So you said you you're not sure about our programs you at all, so you wouldn't be able to tell for like engineering or you sent that? George 15:02 No, no. I would like to talk about other programs. That's what I came to study and that's basically where I stayed. Erik Galama 15:08 OK. Uh. So then it is for that's done for feminism. Next topic is on ideology, and like generational differences. So many question here is historians have written a lot about what they called the counterculture revolution. That meaning means that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents, revolution or generation. To what extent did people in your cultural or social circles seem cells as need to mobilize for more? Just for more just society and the better world. George 15:57 We don't know the like like, you know, I think that I think that this historians trying to write something on paper so they could get their this is approved. Erik Galama 15:57 Yes. George 16:05 Uh, I think that there was a lot of conversation about. You know the way it was with our parents, right? And the way we wanted to have. Erik Galama 16:12 Hmm. George 16:14 I wouldn't hold like a rebellion and stuff like that. I think that just overstating it let me go to the movement for it. I guess in general, but because a lot of people realize that, you know the. Or our parents generation. They had a lot of good stuff going for them and we need to be changed in certain ways, but. You know, it's just like it's like any generation. I mean, you talked about my generation. You gonna talk about the Ask the same question about your generation and you'll find it. It's basically the same answers. It all changed, right? I mean, every generation wants to change from the preceding generation. Doesn't mean that the generation thinks that preceding generation was. Erik Galama 16:39 Hmm. George 16:49 Was bad or wrong, it's just a different way. They want to look at thinking different way before every setback maybe be more open mind or something and you know, next generation gonna say maybe we should be more close minded. It says it's a cycle that goes through. Erik Galama 16:49 Hmm. George 17:02 So yeah, that was part of the conversation. Erik Galama 17:02 OK. So you said it be part conversation. You just wouldn't say it be like a dramatic change. It was more smaller changes. George 17:10 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's more realistic. It was there. People talk about it and and stuff like that, but it wasn't getting into rebellion. Finding stuff like the like the refresh. Wanna stay sometimes? No, I don't think that's what the case at all. At least not with environment that I was in. Erik Galama 17:12 OK. OK. So yeah, so far for that is so to. What extent, I guess, did your generation believe in your parents like ideals of gender, family and dating? That's like the cultural ideals of your parents. How much did they believe in that? George 17:50 I think there's. That's where a lot of the changes were basically around that. I mean, it's generally more open to add more openness to meeting and stuff like that and less stricter rules and that kind of stuff, so. Looking for more freaking like that? Like I think they probably there from their parents as same same time. What are the same to my parents talking about their parents? There's they were rebellious as well right so. Erik Galama 18:02 Right. OK. So you would say that there was. The main change is at least were towards dating and. That idea instead of actually, yeah, that's what you said would be. So they made changes were towards dating and compared to their parents. George 18:35 Yeah, dating and and and even like that. I think with the. Try to get into your era of the divorce at that time. Divorce of becoming very popular. I think that was a big difference too. Erik Galama 18:45 Yeah. George 18:46 Your parents didn't really believe in divorce, although my mother said that people can't live together why should they but a lot of other people. We're very different than that. Erik Galama 18:56 OK. George 18:56 There were no days that that time started being like you doesn't work just. It also goes up someplace else. Erik Galama 19:03 Alright. So looking back on the 70s, what like aspect of Canadian society do you see as the most? Broken and in the need of fixing. George 19:26 Broken in the need of shifting. Erik Galama 19:28 Yeah. So that could be, um, how? Like women how are perceived. It could be also towards gender any it could be to. You it's quite broad, so basically any idea of part of like any culture or society? George 19:46 Yeah, I I see. I wish it would be (illegible) if in this situation right, you don't know how they were being treated that that was, in my view becoming. Erik Galama 19:54 Hmm. George 19:59 More upfront coming up more that time already. Erik Galama 20:06 OK. George 20:06 Is what? What? What story of that is because it was before I went to university. But before I went to university, and that's for sure. We lived in Ottawa still at that time and. They're going to triplex. And inside us moved in Inuit people that they were locating people. Yeah, at that time also, there's been very, very unfair because they cannot at all adapt to society for the very mean and very tough on them. And that's that was before I was able to go to university. But that sort of started coming through little more university as well-being aware of those kind of things and other people were more aware of that as well. So for me, I think I was probably more. Noticeable than other things that people talk about. Erik Galama 20:48 Alright, so you so you say like the main progressing that was noticeable appeal. Don't try to talk about be like how I Native Americans were treated at the time? George 21:01 Yeah, that's what I was really starting to come out or more and more that and now it's really out everywhere there. That time I notices that are coming out, I would aware of it that I'm already the schools and stuff like that so. Erik Galama 21:06 Hmm. Hmm. George 21:13 It's like to me that was. An injustice in society. Something had to be fixed at that moment. Erik Galama 21:19 That actually started to leads into actual one and or sort of answers. So next follow-up was. So what's what like forms of injustice were common in the in Canadian society at the time? George 21:34 What was it that in in the first people that was an injustice that a lot of way? Erik Galama 21:34 So. George 21:40 Uh. Was there anything else? Erik Galama 21:44 Yeah, like, would you say there was any, like, racial industrious. So towards African Americans? Or are also Asians. Was there like injustice towards those groups? George 21:56 I don't think there. There would have been some, yes, but not large amount, but not like we're hearing about nowadays. Sometimes I think Canada in that time United States was very bad, but Canada was nothing like what I notice, added states at that time. Erik Galama 22:04 So. M. George 22:15 Told them more, got along better, right? Erik Galama 22:15 Uh. George 22:23 I would say United States was really bad, but in Canada it was not as bad. Wouldn't be the way it was, but it wasn't really bad. Erik Galama 22:23 Yeah. So you would say it wasn't perfect, like there was some injustice, but it wasn't as common or as prevalent as it was in the United States. George 22:41 Oh, no, wait. No way at all, no. Erik Galama 22:43 No. OK. George 22:44 No. Erik Galama 22:46 I and also so how did you feel about the political system of Canada, the democracy that we have? Did you see that as fair and they represent the resistant rights? And needs. George 23:02 No. Erik Galama 23:05 So you elaborate on this, so I I was not sure what Prime Minister was at the times. George 23:14 Not sure exactly what that time either, but. Structure the break back to that time at the politics at that time and the. Erik Galama 23:17 But. George 23:22 Means. I don't think it was much different than it is now. I get politician to make promises. They break promises, and sometimes people get a little more annoyed than other times. Erik Galama 23:25 This. George 23:35 But I don't think it was anything really radically different at that time. Maybe. Erik Galama 23:35 OK. George 23:41 Of course it made a little more respect for each other in the political world, but. I don't know if that's where the problem too is in the old days there wasn't that much. News coverage. Of that kind of thing as yours now, now everything gets put on Internet and stuff like that on Facebook and Twitter and whatever you have those days, which is really on TV and newspaper, so doesn't mean that we're hearing everything going on like this. What the few tools. Would decide what to make public, available for people. Nowadays it's a whole other world, right? And we applied our world to those days. Maybe they're the same. I don't know. Or maybe they are different. Erik Galama 24:22 No. So would you say that there is like less political polarization compared to today? At in the 70s. George 24:40 I don't know. I can't really say. I almost want to say no, but. Not sure if that's a fair answer or not. Erik Galama 24:47 Alright. Uh, yeah. you also mentioned, too that news and stuff was. You will get it on. You would just be the TV. You get it? How much did you think? Like the TV played a part in, like which political parties, like the view of political parties to general public? George 25:11 Which is. You got the TV. You got the radio and got the newspapers, right. And maybe some magazines. And that was really the only source of. Erik Galama 25:17 Hmm. George 25:20 Really information. Unless you were lucky enough to you, that meet these people are going to Parliament and listen to people in Parliament. I think the main form really was either. TV or radio? Not so much newspaper. Erik Galama 25:36 OK. George 25:37 Radio at that time because you had a good radio station. Was not like modern radio station, but it was more. It's like an all news station, but. It was more like through news and in-depth reporting and stuff like that, and they would always have, you know, politics and stuff like that and interview them on on that station. So that that was good. So you can really get at least from the (illegible) peoples point of view what they're thinking about. Erik Galama 25:52 Hmm. Alright. Um. So so let's little bit is so the last. Sorry, I lost the main question. Is going to be mainly talking about the free love move, but but also along with. Changes in like gender, relationship and. Ideology. So the main question here is cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill and legalization of abortion and. The dissemination of the free love ideology changed gender relationships and dating practices in the early 1970s. How much would you agree with that statement? George 26:52 Close from the 1970s right to the OT, but I would say that the other was, yeah, influence it for sure. Erik Galama 26:55 Yeah. So would you say that? What, like I, was those three things I mentioned. So was the birth control pills, the legalization of abortion, and the increased prevalence of free love ideology. I was just three things. What would you say most change the. But like dating practices at the time. George 27:26 I think they all relate. We've got that right. We think about the first controlled and even get abortions and. Erik Galama 27:28 Hmm. George 27:32 Yeah, it's, it's it's. I think they're all the same. I think I'll just relate to each other. Well, one cause it together they should. So they just go like a unison. There not. There not like one and another another. Like this. Sort of. They roll together almost. Erik Galama 27:48 All right. the follow-up to that to is so. Um, how? As you can describe how did dating look like on campus? George 28:02 There really wasn't there that much about. I mean that's that's seen teachers and students dating and making out in the cafeteria and stuff with. That's that's that's that's a fact. That's not a joke, that's a fact. I'm. You know other people, they, they they dated and sometimes they would have lived together and stuff like that. You had more than maybe in years prior to that. So it was a little more. Openness about that kind of. Erik Galama 28:31 OK. Um. Start at so you say it be more open to previous years. Crooked. George 28:42 I'm sorry. Say again. Erik Galama 28:42 Uh, you would say it would be more open compared to previous years. Yep. George 28:46 Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Erik Galama 28:48 Would you say it became less open as the years like in later years? George 28:55 I would say no, no, it would just became more accepted. Right. So it wouldn't more it wouldn't as in your faces, it was at that time it just. Erik Galama 29:04 Hmm. George 29:05 Or part of a society. This is more accepted nowadays. Erik Galama 29:07 OK. Um nursing on tight is how did your generation view family and marriage? So how common was it for people to want to start a family? George 29:27 I think that was part of the norm, right? It wasn't. And people are married. They want to get married. They were there. Some people that were just wanted to live together, but marriage was still an institution at that time. People saw that and they went for like a normal weddings and stuff. And most of them want to children as well. Yeah, so. So that time at all think that had. I think nowadays I sort of breaking down where should say breaking up where. Yeah you have marriage but the the wedding itself is not as important as you used to be and a lot simpler and. Maybe more practical or more meaning collectively that way in then large, expensive weddings. Erik Galama 30:08 OK. Um. So you would say be it was still essentially the same like level compared to previous generations where people still wanted to buy the same appeal. Also want to get married and start families. George 30:26 Yeah, me maybe a little bit less, but I don't think it had done. I would say it was significantly less. Erik Galama 30:31 OK. And then the final section, yeah, if you don't want talk about, we don't have to. It's talks about sexual harassment and or sexual sexuality and also sexual harassment. That if you want to talk about, we can if you don't want to, you don't have to. George 30:51 Pass that one. You're gonna do there. You don't want her to pass it. Erik Galama 30:55 Alright. Alright, person, if you don't wanna do it, I'm fine that. And then I think that is all the questions. So that is I'm gonna stop the recording. George 31:08 Yeah. Erik Galama 31:09 And that's gonna be the end. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource G. George (Interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial bout University of Ottawa during the end of the 1970s Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Dating Gender Generational Differences Leisure Marriage Race Sexuality Social Justice University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gigi Kaur Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Helene Goulet Location The location of the interview Ottawa (over Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:11.982 --> 0:0:19.282 Gigi Kaur OK, ça marche parfait c'est bon, OK, alors je vais commencer avec Hélène Goulet. OK, it works perfectly, it's good, OK, so I'll start with Hélène Goulet. 0:0:19.292 --> 0:0:21.92 Gigi Kaur Goulet, vous allez bien? Goulet, how are you? 0:0:21.732 --> 0:0:23.72 Hélène Goulet Oui, merci vous-même. Yes, thank you yourself. 0:0:23.622 --> 0:0:24.742 Gigi Kaur Toujours. Always Always 0:0:25.92 --> 0:0:33.182 Gigi Kaur Alors aujourd'hui, on fait une petite entrevue pour mon cours d'histoire, historiens, craft pour comprendre les francophones qu'ils étaient là. So today, we're doing a little interview for my history class, historians, craft to understand the francophones they were there. 0:0:34.2 --> 0:1:4.672 Gigi Kaur Pendant les 4 vingts, les 1970 que je vais faire un petit intro, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et une culture de consommation axée sur l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée au toi, une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones étaient liés les uns ou l'autre. During the 4 twenties, the 1970s, which I'm going to give a little intro to, cultural historians argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a car-centric consumer culture created a North American popular culture more integrated with the bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related to each other. 0:1:5.42 --> 0:1:14.632 Gigi Kaur La première question que je vous demanderai il y a, il y avait moyen d'appareils électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970? The first question I'll ask you is, how many electronic devices were there in Canadian society in the 1970s? 0:1:14.962 --> 0:1:23.752 Gigi Kaur Comment ôter, structure votre temps libre est que vous faisiez les étudiants de l'université d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années quatre-vingt? How to remove, structure your free time is what you were doing University of Ottawa students for fun in the eighties? 0:1:24.2 --> 0:1:26.72 Gigi Kaur 1970. 1970 0:1:26.742 --> 0:1:35.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais, d'accord, ça m'a fait un peu rire la question, parce que je me suis rendu compte que je n’étais pas peut-être pas typique complètement. Yeah, okay, I kind of laughed at the question, because I realized that maybe I wasn't completely typical. 0:1:37.282 --> 0:1:47.422 Hélène Goulet Les dans l'État libre, qui étaient assez peu nombreux finalement, parce que moi je venais d'un petit village, j'arrivais à Ottawa, je ne connaissais pas la ville. Those in the Free State, who were actually quite few in number, because I came from a small village, I'd just arrived in Ottawa, I didn't know the city. 0:1:48.812 --> 0:1:59.152 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus aussi, chez dans la famille, dans la famille, puis j'aidais aussi dans cette famille alors euh. And I lived off-campus too, with my family, in the family, and I also helped out in the family, so um. 0:2:1.82 --> 0:2:6.882 Hélène Goulet Entre les cours, on était un petit groupe, moi je faisais un bac en littérature française et anglaise. Between classes, we were a small group, and I was doing a bac in French and English literature. 0:2:7.852 --> 0:2:20.102 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis liée d'amitié avec ohh 43 ou 45 personnes avec qui on se retrouvait presque tous dans les mêmes cours. And then I made friends with ohh 43 or 45 people with whom we almost all ended up in the same classes. 0:2:20.612 --> 0:2:26.882 Hélène Goulet Et puis entre les cours, on allait souvent à la cafétéria prendre un café, puis jaser. Between classes, we'd often go to the cafeteria for a coffee and a chat. 0:2:27.172 --> 0:2:29.442 Hélène Goulet Fait, il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient. In fact, there was a lot going on. 0:2:31.432 --> 0:2:35.252 Hélène Goulet Et puis moi, Bin les week-ends, je travaillais. And well, I worked on weekends. 0:2:36.792 --> 0:2:38.172 Hélène Goulet Euh la première année? Uh, the first year? 0:2:39.182 --> 0:2:41.352 Hélène Goulet Ouais et weekend. Yeah and weekend. 0:2:41.392 --> 0:2:48.882 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à travailler, je ne me souviens pas si c'était en première année ou en 2e année université, mais je travaillais jeudi soir. I started working, I don't remember if it was my first year or my 2nd year at university, but I worked Thursday evenings. 0:2:48.892 --> 0:2:50.632 Hélène Goulet vendredi soir, samedi, toute la journée. Friday evening, Saturday, all day. 0:2:51.652 --> 0:2:55.832 Hélène Goulet Euh, fait que mes activités sociales étaient reliées. Uh, that my social activities were related. 0:2:58.152 --> 0:3:15.542 Hélène Goulet Je veux un copain la première année que je fais, que j'ai eu un moment donné des copains, des copains, c'est que ma vie sociale était plus autour d’une seule personne ou la famille avec qui J’habitais, qui était ma tante et mes cousins, c'était surtout ça. I want a boyfriend the first year that I do, that I had at some point buddies, buddies, it's that my social life was more around one person or the family that I lived with, which was my aunt and my cousins, it was mostly that. 0:3:15.582 --> 0:3:22.882 Hélène Goulet Je ne, je ne buvais pas d'alcool, je probablement parce que je ne peux pas, je ne peux pas digérer l'alcool. I don't, I don't drink alcohol, I probably don't because I can't, I can't digest alcohol. 0:3:23.782 --> 0:3:38.112 Hélène Goulet Et puis j’ai-je, j'étais très consciente qu'il y avait beaucoup de consommation de marijuana autour de moi, surtout avec des étudiants qui étaient dans les en littérature, c'était encore plus un peu plus épié, plus. And then I, I was very aware that there was a lot of marijuana use around me, especially with students who were in literature, it was even more a little more spied on, more. 0:3:39.752 --> 0:3:43.2 Hélène Goulet Mais moi, je n’ai jamais consommé, j'étais très plate. But I never used, I was very flat. 0:3:45.452 --> 0:3:53.922 Gigi Kaur Moi, moi j'ai trouvé que vous n’êtes pas plate, vous êtes très discipliné, vous à vos affaires, parce que moi je suis restée à la même personne que la semaine. I've found that you're not flat, you're very disciplined, you go about your business, because I've stayed with the same person all week. 0:3:52.532 --> 0:3:55.392 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je suis très disciplinée, c'est vrai. Yeah, I'm very disciplined, that's true. 0:3:53.932 --> 0:3:55.802 Gigi Kaur Différence, c'est que je bois un peu, mais. The difference is that I drink a little, but... 0:3:56.622 --> 0:4:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis mes cours souvent mes cours étaient-elles le matin, j'essaierai d'avoir mes cours concentrés parce que j'habitais à l'extérieur du campus. Yeah, then my classes often my classes were them in the morning, I'll try to have my classes focused because I lived off campus. 0:4:5.552 --> 0:4:22.42 Hélène Goulet Alors quand je retournais à la maison, je retournais pour le reste de la journée, puis j'étais ma tante était monoparental, avec 3 enfants, dont le plus jeune avait 6h, alors j'étais à la maison pour recevoir l'enfant après l'école. So, when I went home, I went home for the rest of the day, then I was my aunt was a single parent, with 3 children, the youngest of whom was 6, so I was home to receive the child after school. 0:4:23.142 --> 0:4:33.712 Hélène Goulet Et puis, pour commencer à préparer le, le repas du soir pour lui aider à préparer le repas du soir fait que c'est un peu ça ma vie, c'est mes parents étaient à l'extérieur d'Ottawa, alors. And then, to start preparing the, the evening meal to help him prepare the evening meal that's kind of my life, my parents were outside Ottawa, so. 0:4:35.462 --> 0:4:44.372 Hélène Goulet Ça m'arrivait le dimanche matin, de prendre le train, puis aller passer la journée avec mes parents puis revenir le soir avec quelqu'un, mais pas toutes les semaines, pas toutes les semaines. Sometimes on Sunday mornings, I'd take the train, spend the day with my parents and then come back in the evening with someone, but not every week, not every week. 0:4:47.372 --> 0:4:51.142 Gigi Kaur Parlant des transports, est-ce que vous étiez très loin de l’école? Speaking of transportation, were you very far from the school? 0:4:51.152 --> 0:5:4.192 Gigi Kaur Ça prenait beaucoup de temps parce que je sais que aujourd hui le transport ça prend beaucoup de temps quand même, n’y a pas changé, n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est que je voulais savoir pendant les 70 est-ce que le transport était plus vite plus long? It took a lot of time because I know that today transportation takes a lot of time anyway, it hasn't changed, there's not much that has changed, but I wanted to know during the 70's was transportation faster longer. 0:5:4.492 --> 0:5:6.252 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que c'était compliqué? Was it complicated? 0:5:6.262 --> 0:5:8.192 Gigi Kaur C'était comment votre expérience ou pas? What was your experience like? 0:5:9.842 --> 0:5:16.262 Hélène Goulet C'était un bus que je prenais très près de la maison à 3 blocs, 3 ou 4 blocs, et j'habite à Vanier. It was a bus that I took very close to home, 3 or 4 blocks away, and I live in Vanier. 0:5:17.232 --> 0:5:26.2 Hélène Goulet Et puis c'est elle te bus numéro 3 à l'époque, c'est plus la même chose maintenant, puis il m'amenait à la rue rideau et Dalhousie. And then it was the number 3 bus back then, it's not the same now, and it took me to Rideau and Dalhousie. 0:5:26.12 --> 0:5:33.12 Hélène Goulet Je crois, alors après ça, je marchais pour aller au campus, alors je marchais, ça me faisait quand même marcher un peu. I think, so after that, I'd walk to campus, so I'd walk, it still made me walk a bit. 0:5:33.52 --> 0:5:34.152 Hélène Goulet Ce qui était très bien. Which was fine. 0:5:34.622 --> 0:5:39.572 Hélène Goulet Euh que c'est un seul bus, ça ne prenait pas très longtemps parce que ce n’est pas très loin. It's only one bus, so it didn't take very long because it's not very far. 0:5:43.982 --> 0:5:44.142 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:5:39.582 --> 0:5:47.432 Hélène Goulet Finalement, c'est peut-être 10, 12-15 minutes, je ne sais pas fait que d'après moi je pouvais me rendre si l'autobus arrivait à l'heure. In the end, it's maybe 10, 12-15 minutes, I don't know, but I think I could make it if the bus arrived on time. 0:5:47.782 --> 0:5:49.792 Hélène Goulet C'était une question de 30 minutes. It was a 30-minute question. 0:5:51.452 --> 0:5:54.382 Hélène Goulet Total, c'est 30 35 minutes avec la marche. Total: 30-35 minutes with walking. 0:5:59.792 --> 0:6:8.402 Gigi Kaur Vous avez dit que vous étiez, avec votre copain, votre famille, et cetera, mais vous avez une vie plus personnelle que sociale à UOttawa. You said you were, with your boyfriend, your family, et cetera, but you have more of a personal life than a social one in UOttawa. 0:6:8.892 --> 0:6:9.102 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:6:8.982 --> 0:6:13.42 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez assisté à des spectacles musicaux pendant vos années d'université? Did you attend any musical performances during your university years? 0:6:13.462 --> 0:6:18.12 Hélène Goulet Oui, beaucoup, j'ai fait ça beaucoup parce qu'on a eu, on avait la boîte à chansons. Yes, a lot, I did that a lot because we had, we had the song box. 0:6:18.142 --> 0:6:21.552 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas si ça s'appelait comme ça, mais il y avait. I don't know if it was called that, but there it was. 0:6:21.562 --> 0:6:41.482 Hélène Goulet Il y avait plusieurs petits immeubles à l'époque gris, des petites maisons grises, comme on voit encore sur le campus, puis dans c’est un de ces immeubles-là, je ne me souviens pas lequel, il y avait un petit, une boîte à chanson au sous-sol, alors j'ai vu déjà qui sont décédés maintenant. There were several small gray buildings at the time, small gray houses, as you can still see on campus, and then in one of these buildings, I don't remember which one, there was a small, a song box in the basement, so I've already seen who's passed away now. 0:6:41.492 --> 0:6:49.342 Hélène Goulet Comme Georges Adoré, québécois qui était très connu à l'époque, Claude Léveillé, Jean-Pierre Ferland. Like Georges Adoré, a Quebecker who was very well known at the time, Claude Léveillée, Jean-Pierre Ferland. 0:6:49.752 --> 0:6:53.482 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu ces gens-là probablement tous à la boîte à chanson. I've seen these people probably all at the song box. 0:6:53.852 --> 0:6:55.972 Hélène Goulet J'ai vu Georges Moustaki I saw Georges Moustaki 0:6:56.222 --> 0:7:1.742 Hélène Goulet Ce sont des heures qui venaient d'ouvrir, puis les étudiants pouvaient y aller pour 2$ dans le balcon. These were hours that had just opened, then students could go for $2 in the balcony. 0:7:3.282 --> 0:7:5.312 Hélène Goulet Alors j'ai fait ça à quelques reprises aussi. So, I did that a few times too. 0:7:7.562 --> 0:7:17.292 Hélène Goulet J'en ai peut-être vu d'autres, mais là, ça m'échappe, mais je recherche beaucoup de la musique en français parce que Ben, j'ai, j'ai d'abord j'ai grandi dans une famille francophone. I may have seen others, but it escapes me, but I look for French music a lot because Ben, I grew up in a French-speaking family. 0:7:17.712 --> 0:7:23.572 Hélène Goulet Et puis la télé était quand même quelque chose de quand j'étais adolescente, moi je suis naze. And then TV was still something of when I was a teenager, I'm lame. 0:7:23.582 --> 0:7:24.652 Hélène Goulet 54. 54 0:7:25.422 --> 0:7:28.642 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais adolescente, la télé, ce n’est pas très vieux encore. When I was a teenager, TV wasn't very old yet. 0:7:29.182 --> 0:7:33.542 Hélène Goulet Il y avait même la plupart des gens n’avaient même pas une télé en couleur, c'était noir et blanc. Most people didn't even have a color TV, it was all black and white. 0:7:34.112 --> 0:7:40.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis fait que j'écoutais beaucoup les émissions culturelles francophones comme jeunesse d'aujourd'hui. I also listened to a lot of French-language cultural programs like Youth Today. 0:7:40.922 --> 0:7:47.482 Hélène Goulet Bon fait que je fais que j'étais beaucoup plus axé sur la musique francophone, je connaissais les Beatles et Rolling Stones. The fact that I was much more focused on French music, I knew the Beatles and Rolling Stones. 0:7:47.492 --> 0:7:59.972 Hélène Goulet J'avais qu'ils étaient, je connaissais certaines chansons, mais euh, ce n’était pas mon gars, tu, mon gout est toujours en français, même si c'était complètement bilingue, parce que j'ai grandi dans un village. I knew that they were, I knew certain songs, but uh, it wasn't my guy, you, my taste is always in French, even if it was completely bilingual, because I grew up in a village. 0:8:1.542 --> 0:8:6.342 Hélène Goulet Complètement bilingue n'est parents, avaient magasin général, alors j'ai grandi complètement bilingue. Completely bilingual is not parents, had general store, so I grew up completely bilingual. 0:8:7.912 --> 0:8:13.692 Hélène Goulet Ouais, mais j'ai toujours travaillé fort pour conserver la langue, ouais. Yeah, but I've always worked hard to keep the language, yeah. 0:8:14.2 --> 0:8:20.472 Gigi Kaur Et parlons de la langue française est ce qu'il y avait de la difficulté à conserver la langue française à UOttawa? And speaking of the French language, was it difficult to preserve the French language at UOttawa? 0:8:20.482 --> 0:8:22.672 Gigi Kaur Ça, c'était plus Intéressant. That was more interesting. 0:8:27.482 --> 0:8:34.992 Hélène Goulet Y avait, il y avait beaucoup plus de francophones proportionnellement à l'époque, j'ai l'impression, c'était très bilingue à l'époque. There were, there were many more Francophones proportionally at the time, I have the impression, it was very bilingual at the time. 0:8:36.212 --> 0:8:42.692 Hélène Goulet Ce que j'ai remarqué parce que je suis retournée à l'université d'Ottawa à quelques reprises étudier plus tard. Which I noticed because I went back to the University of Ottawa a few times to study later. 0:8:42.972 --> 0:8:55.772 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'ai remarqué qu'il y avait eu un glissement que y a beaucoup d'étudiants étrangers qui ne parlent pas français, alors il y a eu un glissement vers l'anglais beaucoup plus. And then I noticed that there had been a shift that there are a lot of foreign students who don't speak French, so there's been a shift towards English a lot more. 0:8:56.502 --> 0:8:59.942 Hélène Goulet D'après moi, et je pense que j'ai lu là-dessus aussi là. In my opinion, and I think I've read about it there too. 0:9:0.292 --> 0:9:6.512 Hélène Goulet Mais à l'époque, on entendait parler français partout, c'est y avait beaucoup de la part des franco-ontariens. But back then, you could hear French being spoken everywhere, so there was a lot of Franco-Ontarian involvement. 0:9:7.832 --> 0:9:12.812 Hélène Goulet Euh aller à l'université d'Ottawa parce que, à l'université de Sudbury, n’existait pas là laurentienne. Uh go to the University of Ottawa because, at the University of Sudbury, didn't exist there. 0:9:12.822 --> 0:9:14.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu’elle n’existait pas à l'époque. I don't think it existed back then. 0:9:20.892 --> 0:9:21.302 Gigi Kaur Ah ouais? Oh Yea? 0:9:15.612 --> 0:9:26.532 Hélène Goulet Et puis on ne serait pas allé au Québec parce qu'on n'avait pas fait le cégep, alors les gens du Québec Fini en Ontario fait que y avait beaucoup de francophones. And then we wouldn't have gone to Quebec because we hadn't gone to CEGEP, so people from Quebec ended up in Ontario because there were a lot of francophones there. 0:9:27.592 --> 0:9:29.512 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très intéressant. OK I find that very interesting. 0:9:26.652 --> 0:9:30.512 Hélène Goulet Ouais toute façon ouais. Yeah anyway yeah. 0:9:35.942 --> 0:9:36.402 Hélène Goulet Hum. Hum 0:9:40.22 --> 0:9:40.222 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:31.592 --> 0:9:40.592 Gigi Kaur Parce que c'est tellement vrai, on a beaucoup de élèves internationaux qui vient de partout maintenant fait qu'on voit de plus en plus en anglais, c'est clair. Because it's so true, we have a lot of international students from all over the world now, so we're seeing more and more in English, that's for sure. 0:9:40.602 --> 0:9:42.692 Gigi Kaur C'est évident que je trouve ça intéressant encore. Obviously, I still find it interesting. 0:9:42.702 --> 0:9:44.42 Gigi Kaur À l'époque, c'était plus francophone. Back then, it was more francophone. 0:9:44.512 --> 0:9:44.822 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:9:45.732 --> 0:9:53.872 Gigi Kaur Parlant de des pays, des cultures, et cetera, les 40s, les 70, toujours 80, juste pourquoi? Speaking of countries, cultures, et cetera, the 40s, the 70s, still the 80s, just why? 0:9:57.992 --> 0:9:58.442 Hélène Goulet Oui. Yes 0:9:53.882 --> 0:9:58.452 Gigi Kaur Mais les 70Y avait eu la guerre de Vietnam. But the 70Y had the Vietnam War. 0:9:58.872 --> 0:10:1.972 Gigi Kaur Alors, qu'est-ce que vous avez pensé sur la gare de l'événement? So, what did you think of the event station? 0:10:1.982 --> 0:10:5.112 Gigi Kaur Puis, est-ce que vous étiez sur les, les manifestations et cetera? Then, were you on the demonstrations and so on? 0:10:5.562 --> 0:10:9.782 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, j'ai, je n’ai jamais été une personne qui manifestait facilement. No, I've, I've, I've never been a person who protests easily. 0:10:9.832 --> 0:10:14.702 Hélène Goulet J'ai peut-être manifesté de nous 2 fois dans ma vie. I may have manifested from us twice in my life. 0:10:14.712 --> 0:10:23.542 Hélène Goulet Je suis, c'est je ne sais pas vraiment mon bag parce que je trouve que beaucoup de polarisation dans les manifestations. I'm, I don't really know what my bag is because I find that there's a lot of polarization in the demonstrations. 0:10:23.552 --> 0:10:27.22 Hélène Goulet Puis je j'ai tendance à voir les choses de façon beaucoup plus nuancée. Then I tend to see things in a much more nuanced way. 0:10:28.292 --> 0:10:34.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, je ne me souviens pas d'avoir eu, je suis certaine qu'on en a parlé, mais je ne m’en souviens pas vraiment. Uh, I don't remember having, I'm sure we talked about it, but I don't really remember. 0:10:34.652 --> 0:10:40.442 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens plus de ce qui est arrivé avant avec la Guerre froide, puis la crise domicile à Cuba. I can't remember what happened before with the Cold War, then the Cuban home crisis. 0:10:41.122 --> 0:10:52.892 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais au à l'école secondaire, ça, c'est très clair dans mon esprit, la peur que la population avait à l'époque, c'était ça, c'est très palpable. When I was in high school, it's very clear in my mind, the fear that people had at the time, that was it, it's very palpable. 0:10:53.692 --> 0:10:58.2 Hélène Goulet La guerre du Vietnam je ne connaissais pas beaucoup d'Américains à l'époque non plus. I didn't know many Americans back then either. 0:10:58.12 --> 0:11:8.982 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que tu sais toute cette controverse qui avait aux États-Unis qui étaient vraiment très forte aux États-Unis, c'est comme si, en littérature, ça nous rejoint, ça ne nous rejoignait pas beaucoup. So, you know, all this controversy in the United States, which was really, really strong in the United States, it's as if, in literature, it reached us, it didn't reach us very much. 0:11:8.992 --> 0:11:11.52 Hélène Goulet Peut-être, si on avait étudié en histoire ou en. Maybe, if we had studied history or. 0:11:13.142 --> 0:11:15.262 Hélène Goulet Science politique on aurait été beaucoup plus. Political science we would have been much more. 0:11:18.132 --> 0:11:19.142 Hélène Goulet Pris là-dedans, tu sais? Caught up in it, you know? 0:11:19.152 --> 0:11:22.892 Hélène Goulet Dans ces discussions là, mais en littérature, on avait un peu la tête dans les nuages. In these discussions, but in literature, we had our heads in the clouds. 0:11:34.742 --> 0:11:36.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:11:26.572 --> 0:11:40.762 Gigi Kaur Ouais c'est vrai, c'est compréhensible parce que moi je suis dans le cours de l'histoire et science politique, mais nous on est toujours mais elle est dans ces sujets là comme carrément y a la situation de Palestine et Israël fait qu'on parle toujours de ça, il Ukraine. Yeah, it's true, it's understandable because I'm in the history and political science course, but we're always but she's in these subjects there as squarely there's the situation of Palestine and Israel makes that we always talk about it, it Ukraine. 0:11:39.72 --> 0:11:49.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais Ben c'est maintenant, je suis beaucoup prise politisée maintenant dans ma vie je suis beaucoup plus qui se passe dans le monde maintenant mais à l'époque moi j'étais très jeune aussi. I'm much more aware of what's going on in the world now, but back then I was very young too. 0:11:49.372 --> 0:12:0.942 Hélène Goulet Il faut dire que je suis arrivée à l'université, j'avais, j'avais, je venais de mon petit village fait que juste adaptation à la ville, à l'université, je ne connaissais personne dans mes cours. It has to be said that when I arrived at university, I had, I had, I came from my little village, so just adapting to the city, at university, I didn't know anyone in my classes. 0:12:1.722 --> 0:12:5.82 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, c'est très Axios gêne. It was very difficult, it's very axios embarrassing. 0:12:6.62 --> 0:12:12.102 Hélène Goulet C'est qu'il y a eu y a eu ça parce que je devais travailler et que j'avais beaucoup de responsabilités quand même. That's because I had to work, and I had a lot of responsibility. 0:12:12.112 --> 0:12:13.782 Hélène Goulet J'étais l'aîné de ma famille. I was the eldest in my family. 0:12:14.192 --> 0:12:22.292 Hélène Goulet Et puis l'année avant que j’aie l'université, on a eu un feu, on a, on a perdu notre maison, notre magasin. And then the year before I went to university, we had a fire, we lost our house, our store. 0:12:23.452 --> 0:12:28.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis dans un petit village, il n’y a pas de logement, n’y a pas d'appartement. Uh, then in a small village, there's no housing, there's no apartment. 0:12:28.682 --> 0:12:33.202 Hélène Goulet C'était très difficile, alors mon sens. It was very, very difficult, then, in my opinion. 0:12:33.212 --> 0:12:38.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis j'avais des frères et des sœurs que moi j'essayais de passer à travers l'université plus vite possible. And then I had brothers and sisters that I was trying to get through college as quickly as possible. 0:12:38.632 --> 0:12:42.942 Hélène Goulet J'ai fait un cours de 4h03 ans parce que je voulais pouvoir aider à mon frère, pour ma sœur. I did a 4:03 course because I wanted to be able to help my brother, for my sister. 0:12:44.712 --> 0:12:48.192 Hélène Goulet Et puis il se fait que j'ai mon sens des responsabilités aiguë. I also happen to have a strong sense of responsibility. 0:12:49.882 --> 0:12:52.92 Hélène Goulet Probablement trop aigu pour mon âge. Probably too sharp for my age. 0:12:52.102 --> 0:12:57.482 Hélène Goulet J'avais à peine 17 ans quand je suis arrivée à l'université, j'étais très jeune. I was barely 17 when I went to university, so I was very young. 0:12:57.942 --> 0:13:3.592 Hélène Goulet Et puis je partais d'un tout petit village, puis je partais d'une école secondaire où j'étais une première de classe. And then I left a very small village, and then I left a high school where I was top of my class. 0:13:3.602 --> 0:13:5.522 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais, tout le monde me connaissait. So, you know, everybody knew me. 0:13:6.112 --> 0:13:10.542 Hélène Goulet Euh bon c'est sûr que ça c'était un gros changement pour moi. Ouais. Well, that was a big change for me. Yeah, it was. 0:13:10.542 --> 0:13:12.122 Gigi Kaur En parlons des gros changements. Let's talk about the big changes. 0:13:12.592 --> 0:13:14.572 Gigi Kaur Je sais que y a plus que ce que je vous demande. I know there's more to it than meets the eye. 0:13:14.582 --> 0:13:24.12 Gigi Kaur C'est vraiment été personnel, ce n’est pas sur la feuille, mais tu sais, je voulais savoir comme vous avez dit la première année, c'était quand même difficile ce que vous avez fait des amis comme facilement. It's really been personal, it's not on the sheet, but you know, I wanted to know as you said the first year, it was still difficult what you did friends as easily. 0:13:24.22 --> 0:13:25.82 Gigi Kaur C'était un petit style aussi. It was a little style too. 0:13:25.772 --> 0:13:27.302 Hélène Goulet Non, je suis assez sociable. No, I'm quite sociable. 0:13:27.312 --> 0:13:35.362 Hélène Goulet Et puis je suis un peu timide mais pas outre mesure, je ne suis pas introverti, je suis plutôt extravertie. And then I'm a bit shy but not overly so, I'm not an introvert, I'm more of an extrovert. 0:13:35.372 --> 0:13:39.62 Hélène Goulet Pas exagérer non plus moins maintenant qu'à l'époque, probablement. It's no exaggeration either, probably less so now than then. 0:13:41.72 --> 0:13:57.952 Hélène Goulet Alors non, je me suis fait un petit groupe d'amis, là très solide, qui a duré pendant toutes les années d'études parce qu'on se retrouvait dans les mêmes cours tout le temps, parce qu'on se spécialisait dans la température, se fait qu'on se retrouvait dans des courses de spécialisation et où il n’y avait presque personne en fait. So no, I made a very solid little group of friends, which lasted throughout my years of study, because we ended up in the same courses all the time, because we were specializing in temperature, and we ended up in specialization courses where there was hardly anyone. 0:13:57.962 --> 0:13:58.822 Hélène Goulet 678. 678 0:13:58.832 --> 0:14:7.602 Hélène Goulet Des fois que c'est toujours le même monde, on t'a toujours avec les mêmes personnes, puis dans les cours de littérature anglaise, ça, c'était intéressant. Sometimes it's always the same world, you're always with the same people, and in English literature classes, that was interesting. 0:14:7.612 --> 0:14:14.652 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas que ma te fais des amis, euh, c'est ma mineure en anglais, elle te retient. I don't remember my making friends, uh, it's my English minor, she's holding you back. 0:14:14.662 --> 0:14:32.152 Hélène Goulet Anglais, c'était ma spécialisation mineure, ma concentration et je ne me souviens pas de m'être fait des amis durables qui ont duré dans le temps, probablement parce que j'avais un petit groupe d'amis qui étaient très solidaire, puis on était, comme presque toujours dans les mêmes courbes. English was my minor specialization, my concentration, and I don't remember making any lasting friends who lasted over time, probably because I had a small group of friends who were very supportive, and then we were, as almost always, in the same curves. 0:14:32.162 --> 0:14:35.262 Hélène Goulet Mais cours d'anglais était souvent très tôt le matin aussi. But English classes were often very early in the morning too. 0:14:35.812 --> 0:14:38.362 Hélène Goulet Alors je ne sais pas, je ne peux pas l'expliquer. So, I don't know, I can't explain it. 0:14:38.772 --> 0:14:54.632 Hélène Goulet Les cours de sociologie, psychologie en première année, c'était des immenses cours avec des centaines d'étudiants, alors ce n’était pas vraiment propice à non plus à enfin avoir des relations plus proches avec les gens. First-year sociology and psychology courses were huge classes with hundreds of students, so it wasn't exactly conducive to finally getting to know people. 0:14:55.92 --> 0:14:55.742 Hélène Goulet Ça fait quoi? How does it feel? 0:14:55.752 --> 0:15:0.792 Hélène Goulet On, c'est comme en fait ce petit groupe là, puis on fait beaucoup de choses ensemble. We're like this little group, and we do a lot of things together. 0:15:2.82 --> 0:15:3.802 Gigi Kaur OKOK parfait. OK Perfect 0:15:8.732 --> 0:15:9.482 Hélène Goulet Non, ça va. No, I'm fine. 0:15:4.982 --> 0:15:32.42 Gigi Kaur Je vais faire un changement de sujet si ça ne vous dérange pas la prochaine question, ce sera les historiens de la culture ont beaucoup écrit sur ce qu'ils ont appelé le féminisme de la 2e vague, à savoir que dans le cadre du mouvement de là de la contre-culture, les femmes de du début des années 1970, on cherchait à briser les barrières entre les sexes. I'm going to change the subject if you don't mind, the next question will be Cultural historians have written a lot about what they've called 2nd wave feminism, namely that as part of the counter-culture movement, women in the early 1970s were looking to break down barriers between the sexes. 0:15:32.822 --> 0:15:41.42 Gigi Kaur Cet argument raisonné-t-il avec votre expérience sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa au début des années 1970? Does this argument square with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus in the early 1970s? 0:15:42.52 --> 0:15:47.502 Hélène Goulet Oui, donc je dirais que oui, je surtout Ben moi. Yes, so I'd say yes, especially Ben me. 0:15:47.512 --> 0:15:56.192 Hélène Goulet Personnellement, je suis devenu extrêmement féministe à ce moment-là, au point où j'en ai été désagréable parfois certaine. Personally, I became extremely feminist at that time, to the point where I was sometimes unpleasant about it. 0:15:57.732 --> 0:16:8.452 Hélène Goulet Hop, tu commences beaucoup à remarquer, Tu sais, dans ma famille, avec chez ma tante, mes cousins qui ne faisaient pas la vaisselle, tu sais, ma cousine qui faisait la vaisselle n'est pas mes cousins. Hop, you're starting to notice a lot, you know, in my family, with my aunt, my cousins who didn't do the dishes, you know, my cousin who did the dishes isn't my cousins. 0:16:8.462 --> 0:16:18.102 Hélène Goulet Tu sais des choses comme ça, je devenue assez, on dirait strident en anglais par rapport à ça. You know things like that, I've become quite, you'd say strident in English about it. 0:16:18.202 --> 0:16:21.12 Hélène Goulet Puis dans mon petit groupe d'amis, il y avait des femmes. Then in my little group of friends, there were women. 0:16:23.752 --> 0:16:25.782 Hélène Goulet Des femmes très féministes aussi. Very feminist women too. 0:16:26.332 --> 0:16:29.342 Hélène Goulet Et puis on a eu beaucoup de conversations. And then we had a lot of conversations. 0:16:29.352 --> 0:16:37.412 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens au sujet de tu sais, la contraception, le rôle des femmes, l'avortement. I remember about you know, contraception, the role of women, abortion. 0:16:37.422 --> 0:16:45.652 Hélène Goulet Si je me souviens qu'on a eu beaucoup de ces conversations-là dans le petit groupe, il y avait, il y avait un homme dans le petit groupe, puis y avait 3 ou 4 femmes. If I remember we had a lot of these conversations in the small group, there was, there was one man in the small group, and then there were 3 or 4 women. 0:16:47.422 --> 0:16:59.452 Hélène Goulet Puis c'est intéressant parce que cet homme-là, je l'ai retrouvé il n’y a pas longtemps parce qu’il est prof, Fredericton à l'université Fredericton, prof de français. And it's interesting because I found this man not long ago because he's a teacher, Fredericton at Fredericton university, a French teacher. 0:17:0.442 --> 0:17:11.912 Hélène Goulet Et puis devenu auteur aussi, puis j'ai lu un texte qu'il avait écrit de fiction, c'est comme ça que je l'ai retrouvé, puis je lui ai, je l'ai, je lui ai écrit à l'université. And then I became an author too, and then I read a piece of fiction he'd written, and that's how I found it, and then I, I, I wrote to him at university. 0:17:11.952 --> 0:17:16.712 Hélène Goulet Frédéric fait que 50 ans plus tard, j'ai retrouvé quelqu'un. Frédéric means that 50 years later, I've found someone again. 0:17:16.722 --> 0:17:24.12 Hélène Goulet C'est le seul que j'ai retrouvé, il y en avait une autre personne qui était végétarienne à l'époque, puis elle aussi elle s'était retrouvée. He's the only one I've found, there was another person who was a vegetarian at the time, then she too had found herself. 0:17:24.22 --> 0:17:27.582 Hélène Goulet Mais finalement, on n'a pas réussi à maintenir une relation. But in the end, we couldn't maintain a relationship. 0:17:29.862 --> 0:17:34.662 Hélène Goulet Mais oui, il y avait beaucoup de conversations, puis on y trouve beaucoup. But yes, there was a lot of conversation, and then there's a lot. 0:17:34.672 --> 0:17:35.812 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, le 2e cercle? You know, the 2nd circle? 0:17:35.822 --> 0:17:42.842 Hélène Goulet Semaine de Beauvoir, oui, il y avait une conscience féministe qui se développait dans la société. Semaine de Beauvoir, yes, there was a feminist consciousness developing in society. 0:17:42.972 --> 0:17:44.282 Hélène Goulet Ouais très fort. Yeah, very strong. 0:17:45.912 --> 0:17:53.122 Gigi Kaur Je note une question suivie, à part ça, vous trouvez qu’il y avait beaucoup de femmes qui étaient plus féministes où c'était? I note a follow-up question, apart from that, do you find that there were many women who were more feminist where that was? 0:17:53.172 --> 0:17:55.472 Gigi Kaur C'était certaines catégories des femmes. They were certain categories of women. 0:17:55.952 --> 0:18:4.522 Hélène Goulet Ben je, je pense que le fait que ces femmes-là étaient d'abord à l'université, c'était déjà un peu exceptionnel. Well, I think the fact that these women were at university in the first place was already a bit exceptional. 0:18:4.532 --> 0:18:12.742 Hélène Goulet Dans le sens c'est vrai qu'il y avait beaucoup de plus en plus de femmes à l'université à l'époque, mais pour quelqu'un comme moi qui venait d'un petit village, c'était un exploit. It's true that more and more women were going to university at the time, but for someone like me from a small village, it was quite a feat. 0:18:13.802 --> 0:18:16.972 Hélène Goulet On n’avait pas d'autres filles dans mon village qui était à l'université. We didn't have any other girls in my village who were at university. 0:18:16.982 --> 0:18:20.912 Hélène Goulet C'était la seule, il y avait eu un garçon avant moi. She was the only one; there had been a boy before me. 0:18:23.122 --> 0:18:35.702 Hélène Goulet Et puis alors ça en soit c'était un signe qu'on avait une certaine ambition d'être autre chose que des femmes au foyer ou des mères de famille, et qu'on avait des ambitions plus grandes. And so that in itself was a sign that we had a certain ambition to be something other than housewives or mothers, and that we had greater ambitions. 0:18:35.712 --> 0:18:46.972 Hélène Goulet C'est plus de de plus d'indépendance dans nos vies et que je pense que la plupart de ces femmes-là, qui étaient l'université probablement, avait un peu la même chose. It's more independence in our lives and I think most of these women, who were probably in university, had a bit of the same thing. 0:18:46.982 --> 0:18:49.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ils n'étaient pas là pour se trouver un mari, pour avoir des bébés. You know, they weren't there to find husbands or have babies. 0:18:50.402 --> 0:18:51.472 Hélène Goulet Ça coûtait cher. It was expensive. 0:18:51.942 --> 0:18:59.502 Hélène Goulet Et puis on travaillait fort, alors tu sais, je pense que le les gens qui étaient là, euh. And then we worked hard, so you know, I think the people who were there, uh. 0:18:59.672 --> 0:19:4.212 Hélène Goulet En général, les femmes qui étaient là devaient être un peu féministe sinon. In general, the women who were there must have been a bit feminist otherwise. 0:19:6.342 --> 0:19:9.322 Hélène Goulet Ce ne serait pas les ongles que ça serait chercher à Marie, tu sais? It wouldn't be the nails that would be looking for Marie, you know? 0:19:11.382 --> 0:19:25.742 Hélène Goulet Les femmes qui ne sont pas liées à l'université, là je ne peux pas vous dire parce que ce n’est pas mon cercle d'amis, mais il y en a beaucoup comme avec des filles avec qui moi je suis allé à l'école secondaire, ce n’était pas des féministes, celles qui se sont mariés en sortant de l'école secondaire. I can't tell you about women who aren't related to university because they're not my circle of friends, but there are a lot of them, like the girls I went to high school with, who weren't feminists, the ones who got married right out of high school. 0:19:26.892 --> 0:19:30.212 Hélène Goulet Euh elles n’étaient pas féminines? Uh, weren't they feminine? 0:19:30.222 --> 0:19:37.672 Hélène Goulet Se sont mariés, ont commencé à avoir des enfants, demeurent à la maison, c'étaient des femmes dans des rôles traditionnels, la plupart aussi. Got married, started having children, stayed at home, were women in traditional roles, most of them too. 0:19:37.682 --> 0:19:53.472 Hélène Goulet Elles travaillaient, c'était dans des postes non professionnels parce qu'elles avaient un diplôme d'études secondaires seulement, mais moi, j'ai perdu contact avec ces gens-là, quoi que à l'époque, c'était mes amis, puis je j'ai joué de l'orgue à toute leur mariage. They worked in non-professional jobs because they only had a high school diploma, but I lost touch with these people, even though they were my friends at the time, and I played the organ at all their weddings. 0:19:53.892 --> 0:20:6.842 Hélène Goulet C'est moi qui c'est moi qui a joué la musique à tout le mariage, mais je me souviens de de jouer pour le mariage puis de penser merci mon Dieu, ce n’est pas moi. I'm the one who played the music at the wedding, but I remember playing for the wedding and then thinking thank God it wasn't me. 0:20:8.92 --> 0:20:10.32 Hélène Goulet Merci mon Dieu que ce n’est pas moi. Thank God it's not me. 0:20:12.162 --> 0:20:17.762 Hélène Goulet Parce que au bout de la première année, j'ai quitté le copain que j'avais que j'avais eu pendant mon école secondaire. Because after the first year, I left the boyfriend I'd had in high school. 0:20:17.772 --> 0:20:22.362 Hélène Goulet Je l'ai quitté au bout d'un an, puis là, Ben ma vie a changé complètement, c'est ça? I left him after a year, and then Ben completely changed my life, didn't he? 0:20:22.922 --> 0:20:34.412 Gigi Kaur OK, parlons des relations intimes, je sais que vous allez droit de départ répondre, mais après l'université, est ce que vous avez vous trouvé dans un rôle quand même? OK, let's talk about intimate relationships, I know you're going to start answering, but after university, did you find yourself in a role anyway? 0:20:34.422 --> 0:20:40.142 Gigi Kaur Traductionnel d'avoir des enfants la famille, vous avez fait je vraiment focusser sur mon courriel et tout. Translation of having kids the family, you made me really focus on my email and everything. 0:20:40.822 --> 0:21:3.152 Hélène Goulet Bah j'ai je me suis mariée à 20 6h et j'ai eu mon premier enfant à 30 ans et puis je avant 20 6h J'ai fini l'université, j'avais 21 ans, j'ai commencé à travailler enseigner à l'école secondaire à 21 ans, qui était très jeune. Well, I got married at 20 6 and had my first child at 30 and then I finished university, I was 21, I started working as a high school teacher at 21, which was very young. 0:21:5.452 --> 0:21:21.602 Hélène Goulet Parce que j'ai fondamentalement fait 5 ans d'études en 4h parce qu'en étudiant l'été aussi, j'ai comprimer mes 5 années d'études en 4 ans, que j'ai commencé à enseigner à 21 ans à l'école secondaire, que j'étais vraiment dans la vraie vie. Because I basically did 5 years of study in 4 hours, because by studying in the summer too, I compressed my 5 years of study into 4 years, that I started teaching at 21 in high school, that I was really in the real world. 0:21:21.612 --> 0:21:22.972 Hélène Goulet Là, c'est vraiment. This is the real thing. 0:21:25.182 --> 0:21:29.732 Hélène Goulet Projeter dans la vraie vie puis c'est dans une ville nouvelle ville aussi. Project in real life then it's in a new city too. 0:21:30.62 --> 0:21:35.252 Hélène Goulet Euh alors ça, ça m'a, je suis vraiment devenue une adulte. Well, that really made me an adult. 0:21:35.262 --> 0:21:39.422 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais, j'ai été 5 ans J’habitais seule pendant 5h avant de me marier. You know, I lived alone for 5 years before getting married. 0:21:40.632 --> 0:21:47.452 Hélène Goulet Je n’habitais pas dans la même ville que mon copain que j'ai rencontré à 21 ans, euh. I didn't live in the same town as my boyfriend who I met when I was 21. 0:21:49.402 --> 0:21:54.122 Hélène Goulet On n’habitait pas dans la même ville que j'ai eu une vie quand même très indépendante pendant 5 ans. We didn't live in the same town, and I had a very independent life for 5 years. 0:21:55.42 --> 0:22:3.72 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, après que je me suis mariée, je suis, j'ai travaillé encore 2 ans, puis tu retournes à l'école. Then, after I got married, I worked for another 2 years, and then you go back to school. 0:22:3.332 --> 0:22:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'avais commencé mon MBE à temps partiel pendant que je travaillais, puis j'ai travaillé. I had started my MBE part-time while I was working, and then I went to work. 0:22:10.222 --> 0:22:16.782 Hélène Goulet Bon 5h avant de me marier, puis je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler, fait que j'ai, j'ai toujours travaillé. Well, 5 hours before I got married, and then I never stopped working, because I've always worked. 0:22:16.792 --> 0:22:18.102 Hélène Goulet Sauf que je suis retourné à l'école. Except I went back to school. 0:22:19.672 --> 0:22:23.172 Hélène Goulet Alors, 28 ans, 20 9h. So, 28 years, 20 9h. 0:22:24.442 --> 0:22:27.232 Hélène Goulet J'ai travaillé 2 ans après que j'ai été mariée. I worked 2 years after I was married. 0:22:27.642 --> 0:22:29.502 Hélène Goulet Ensuite, je suis retournée faire mon droit. Then I went back to law school. 0:22:31.582 --> 0:22:38.732 Hélène Goulet Mais j'avais commencé mon MBE pendant que je travaillais, donc 21 et 26. But I had started my MBE while I was working, so 21 and 26. 0:22:39.112 --> 0:22:42.642 Hélène Goulet Le temps partiel et puis j'ai terminé, j'ai fait les 2 en même temps. Part-time and then I finished, I did the 2 at the same time. 0:22:42.652 --> 0:22:47.392 Hélène Goulet J'ai terminé en même temps les 2, le MB à et le diplôme de droit Commonwealth. I completed both the MB at and the Commonwealth Law Diploma at the same time. 0:22:48.182 --> 0:22:55.132 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis là j'étais enceinte en 2e année de droit, qui est enceinte? Uh, I was pregnant in my 2nd year of law school, who's pregnant? 0:22:55.222 --> 0:22:55.982 Hélène Goulet Pas dans mon barreau. Not in my bar association. 0:22:57.972 --> 0:23:9.682 Hélène Goulet Et puis les 2 derniers, j'ai eu 4 enfants, puis les 2 derniers, j'étais, j'étais employé au gouvernement fédéral quand j'ai eu les 2 derniers enfants que j'en ai eu 4 en moins de 6h. And then the last 2, I had 4 children, then the last 2, I was, I was employed by the federal government when I had the last 2 children that I had 4 in less than 6 hours. 0:23:11.572 --> 0:23:13.282 Hélène Goulet Mais je n’ai jamais arrêté de travailler. But I never stopped working. 0:23:13.322 --> 0:23:15.732 Hélène Goulet Ce soit à l'école ou au travail ou l'autre? Either at school or at work or the other? 0:23:15.742 --> 0:23:20.182 Hélène Goulet J'ai, je n’ai jamais été femme au foyer, tu sais, je suis restée à la maison 4 mois après chaque bébé. I've, I've never been a housewife, you know, I stayed at home 4 months after each baby. 0:23:21.822 --> 0:23:23.352 Hélène Goulet 5 mois après le dernier. 5 months after the last one. 0:23:24.502 --> 0:23:28.582 Hélène Goulet Mais autrement, j'ai toujours été dans le pain principal dans ma famille, à partir de. But otherwise, I've always been into the main bread in my family, from. 0:23:31.452 --> 0:23:40.812 Hélène Goulet À partir du moment où je suis allée travailler au ministère de la Justice, j'ai été le gagne-pain principal dans ma famille, toute ma vie, toute ma vie. Hey. From the moment I went to work for the Justice Department, I've been the main breadwinner in my family, all my life, all my life. Hey. 0:23:39.792 --> 0:23:41.832 Gigi Kaur OK je trouve ça très fascinant. OK I find that very fascinating. 0:23:43.262 --> 0:23:47.322 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est vrai que j'ai combiné les 2, ça a été très difficile par moment hein? Yeah, it's true that I've combined the 2, it's been very difficult at times, hasn't it? 0:23:48.922 --> 0:23:52.512 Hélène Goulet Très difficile par moment, mais j'ai aucun regret par rapport à ça. Very difficult at times, but I have no regrets about that. 0:23:53.312 --> 0:23:55.52 Gigi Kaur Tant que vous êtes content, c'est ça qui compte. As long as you're happy, that's what counts. 0:23:55.502 --> 0:24:2.352 Hélène Goulet Voilà, c'est ça, mais j'ai quitté mon conjoint au bout de 30 ans, puis là, j'ai toute une nouvelle vie depuis 13 ans, ça fait que. That's it, but I left my partner after 30 years, and now I've had a whole new life for 13 years. 0:24:3.752 --> 0:24:5.692 Gigi Kaur Et alors? So what? 0:24:5.702 --> 0:24:19.162 Gigi Kaur J'ai une dernière question suivie, à part de cette sujette dans les années 1970, il y avait-il des programmes, des départements ou des clubs de l'université d'Ottawa ou les femmes étaient moins présentes ou moins acceptées? I have one last follow-up question: aside from this topic in the 1970s, were there any programs, departments, or clubs at the University of Ottawa where women were less present or less accepted? 0:24:19.762 --> 0:24:24.402 Hélène Goulet Oui, je pense que à génie en particulier, il y avait beaucoup de. Yes, I think in engineering in particular, there were a lot of. 0:24:26.232 --> 0:24:36.442 Hélène Goulet Euh, prêt, j'ai des stéréotypes de stéréotypes par rapport aux femmes dans des en sciences ou en mathématiques, ou en génie ou pas. Uh, ready, I have stereotypes about women in science or math, or engineering or not. 0:24:36.532 --> 0:24:38.432 Hélène Goulet Probablement même en médecine. Probably even in medicine. 0:24:38.442 --> 0:24:45.842 Hélène Goulet Mais ça, je suis moins au courant, mais on entendait souvent parler de des problèmes que les femmes avaient dans certaines facultés. I don't know about that, but we often heard about the problems women had in certain faculties. 0:24:46.172 --> 0:24:57.682 Hélène Goulet En droit, il y avait beaucoup de femmes quand quand, moi je suis retournée faire mon droit en 1982, il y avait beaucoup de femmes, ça fait qu’il n’y avait pas ces préjugés-là. In law, there were a lot of women when I went back to law school in 1982, there were a lot of women, so there wasn't that prejudice. 0:24:57.722 --> 0:25:0.692 Hélène Goulet Autant, en tout cas pas que moi j'ai pu voir. At least not as many as I've seen. 0:25:1.182 --> 0:25:8.672 Hélène Goulet Euh, moi j'étais plus âgée aussi que la plupart des étudiants en droit parce que j'étais presque une autre génération. J'avais. Uh, I was older than most law students, too, because I was almost a different generation. I was. 0:25:10.412 --> 0:25:12.332 Hélène Goulet Grâce à dieu, je peux passer mon droit. Thanks to God, I can pass my law exam. 0:25:12.342 --> 0:25:29.802 Hélène Goulet J'avais 20, 9h20, 9h alors que la plupart des étudiants en droit avaient 22 parce qu'il fait un bac, il venait de tenir leur premier bac où il y avait fait juste 2 ans d'un bac, alors que moi j'avais, je vais déjà l'équivalent de 5 années de d'études universitaires. I was 20, 9h20, 9h whereas most law students were 22 because they'd just had their first baccalaureate where they'd done just 2 years of a baccalaureate, whereas I'd already had the equivalent of 5 years of university studies. 0:25:29.802 --> 0:25:30.902 Hélène Goulet J'avais l'équivalent de. I had the equivalent of. 0:25:32.702 --> 0:25:39.432 Hélène Goulet SATA dans le monde du travail fait que c'était une ça que j'étais comme une autre génération. SATA in the world of work meant that I was like another generation. 0:25:39.742 --> 0:25:43.172 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai commencé à avoir mes enfants pendant cette période. Then I started having my children during this period. 0:25:43.182 --> 0:25:48.152 Hélène Goulet Là aussi que j'étais vraiment encore là, tu sais, la vie sociale, pour moi, elle n'existait pas. I was still really there, you know, social life didn't exist for me. 0:25:48.162 --> 0:25:53.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était les l'école, je retournais à étudier chez nous, j'allais à la bibliothèque. You know, it was back to school, back to studying at home, back to the library. 0:25:53.382 --> 0:25:57.982 Hélène Goulet Il fallait que je trouve quelque chose, puis sociale existe pas. I had to find something, then society doesn't exist. 0:25:58.572 --> 0:26:0.222 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, c'était vraiment ouais. You know, it was really yeah. 0:26:1.32 --> 0:26:2.862 Hélène Goulet Voilà la famille, la famille, ouais. That's family, family, yeah. 0:26:4.132 --> 0:26:16.642 Gigi Kaur Parlons que vous étiez en droit après un certain âge, avec des, des jeunes femmes, ce que vous avez fait des connexions, des relations avec eux, ce qu'ils ont envoyé, comme la grande sœur. Let's talk about you were in law after a certain age, with des, young women, what you did connections, relationships with them, what they sent, like big sister. 0:26:17.492 --> 0:26:28.332 Hélène Goulet Non, j'ai, je me suis fait quelques très bonnes amies, des hommes aussi d'ailleurs, y avait beaucoup de gens qui venaient du Nord de l'Ontario qui faisaient leur droit français à l'université d'Ottawa. No, I made some very good friends, men too, in fact, there were a lot of people from Northern Ontario who were studying French law at the University of Ottawa. 0:26:28.702 --> 0:26:38.572 Hélène Goulet Euh, je suis devenue très amie avec une jeune femme qui qui avait 7 ans de moins que moi et qui, devenu juge, elle vient juste de prendre sa retraite. Uh, I've become very good friends with a young woman who was 7 years younger than me and who, having become a judge, has just retired. 0:26:38.582 --> 0:26:43.892 Hélène Goulet Le livre revue après plusieurs années, je l'ai revu en décembre dernier. The book was reviewed after several years, I saw it again last December. 0:26:43.902 --> 0:26:45.342 Hélène Goulet On aurait connecté. We would have connected. 0:26:47.532 --> 0:26:48.842 Hélène Goulet Et puis, qui dort? And then, who sleeps? 0:26:48.852 --> 0:26:55.192 Hélène Goulet Il y a une autre personne que j'ai avec qui j'ai gardé contact aussi, euh. There's another person I've kept in touch with too, um. 0:26:55.402 --> 0:26:57.112 Hélène Goulet Jusqu'à maintenant, on se voit encore. So far, we're still seeing each other. 0:26:58.652 --> 0:27:5.502 Hélène Goulet Les autres, je les ai revus à l'occasion dans des événements et tout, mais ma vie a été quand même très occupée. The others I saw occasionally at events and so on, but my life was still very busy. 0:27:5.522 --> 0:27:8.512 Hélène Goulet Puis, avec le temps, évidemment, j'ai développé d'autres intérêts. Then, over time, of course, I developed other interests. 0:27:8.942 --> 0:27:18.322 Hélène Goulet J'ai rencontré d'autres personnes, j'ai un autre cercle d'amis maintenant parce que ça fait tellement d'années que je ne travaille pas comme avocate, que j'ai un peu perdu ce groupe. I've met other people, I have another circle of friends now because it's been so many years since I worked as a lawyer, that I've kind of lost that group. 0:27:18.332 --> 0:27:20.152 Hélène Goulet Là tu sais ouais. Now you know. 0:27:19.342 --> 0:27:24.342 Gigi Kaur Et oui, j'ai vu votre biographie, c'est, je trouve ça très intéressant. And yes, I've seen your biography, it's, I find it very interesting. 0:27:24.732 --> 0:27:24.992 Gigi Kaur Vous avez travaillé pour sa santé Canada, allez travailler pour le doigt, vous allez travailler comme n'importe où. You've worked for his health Canada, go to work for the finger, you'll work like anywhere else. 0:27:37.262 --> 0:27:37.912 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est ça. Yes, that's it. 0:27:31.342 --> 0:27:40.722 Gigi Kaur Ça, ça se montre que vous êtes très flexible à travailler partout, mais vous avez plusieurs intérêts, fait que vous n’êtes pas quelqu'un qui qui aime rester sur une place, je pense. This shows that you're very flexible to work anywhere, but you have many interests, so you're not someone who likes to stay in one place, I think. 0:27:40.292 --> 0:27:41.372 Hélène Goulet Non pas du tout. Not at all. 0:27:41.382 --> 0:27:47.582 Hélène Goulet Puis j'ai, je suis un, je suis un, vraiment quelqu'un qui, Life long, learner tout. Then I, I'm a, I'm a, really someone who, Life long, learner everything. 0:27:47.622 --> 0:27:56.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai continué à étudier, je suis retournée à l'université en 2015, j'ai fait un diplôme en théologie contemplative. I continued to study, I went back to university in 2015, I did a degree in contemplative theology. 0:27:56.942 --> 0:28:8.62 Hélène Goulet Ma vie a vraiment, il y a eu un.de bascule causée par plusieurs traumatismes qui sont arrivés en même temps. My life has really, there was a tipping point caused by several traumas that happened at the same time. 0:28:8.872 --> 0:28:11.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis effet que ma vie a complètement basculé. And then my life completely turned upside down. 0:28:11.972 --> 0:28:16.302 Hélène Goulet Et puis je me suis rebâtie et je me suis complètement rebâtie. And then I rebuilt myself and rebuilt myself completely. 0:28:16.312 --> 0:28:17.22 Hélène Goulet Une vie. One life. 0:28:17.572 --> 0:28:21.82 Hélène Goulet Puis maintenant, je suis très impliquée comme bénévole. And now I'm very, very, very involved as a volunteer. 0:28:23.402 --> 0:28:38.132 Hélène Goulet Mais j'utilise toutes mes compétences de de gestion, d'administration, de police et de toutes les compétences que j'ai acquises dans le monde du travail me servent maintenant dans mon bénévolat. But I'm using all my management, administrative and police skills, and all the skills I've acquired in the working world, to help me in my voluntary work. 0:28:38.142 --> 0:28:42.372 Hélène Goulet Tu sais peut-être, à une échelle moins grande, mais quand même? Euh. You know, maybe on a smaller scale, but still? Uh-huh. 0:28:42.832 --> 0:28:45.292 Hélène Goulet Alors c'est ça, ma vie est complètement différente. So that's it, my life is completely different. 0:28:45.302 --> 0:28:50.642 Hélène Goulet Puis depuis ma j'ai pris ma retraite en 2012. Then I retired en 2012. 0:28:53.542 --> 0:28:59.862 Hélène Goulet Même juste ma santé, juste m'occuper de ma santé, c'est quelque chose qui est pour moi, qui a été relativement nouveau. Even just my health, just looking after my health, that's something that's relatively new to me. 0:28:59.872 --> 0:29:2.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, mais maintenant je suis comme très disciplinée. You know, but now I’m very disciplined. 0:29:2.972 --> 0:29:4.912 Hélène Goulet C'est toujours été très disciplinée. She's always been very disciplined. 0:29:4.922 --> 0:29:7.742 Hélène Goulet J'ai toujours cru à short. I've always believed in short. 0:29:8.322 --> 0:29:11.962 Hélène Goulet Pain for long-term Game, c'est ça toujours été ma philosophie de vie. Pain for long-term Game has always been my philosophy. 0:29:11.972 --> 0:29:14.712 Hélène Goulet Ben, mes parents étaient comme ça, tu sais, c'est. Well, my parents were like that, you know, that's it. 0:29:14.722 --> 0:29:17.432 Hélène Goulet J'ai grandi comme ça, j'ai grandi comme ça. I grew up like that, I grew up like that. 0:29:17.442 --> 0:29:18.962 Hélène Goulet Mes parents travaillaient très fort. My parents worked very hard. 0:29:20.932 --> 0:29:25.262 Hélène Goulet Puis on a eu des, des chocs dans la famille, fait que je n’étais pas. Then we had some, some shocks in the family, which meant that I was not. 0:29:25.552 --> 0:29:26.852 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas une enfant gâtée. I wasn't a spoiled brat. 0:29:26.862 --> 0:29:31.292 Hélène Goulet Là, ça, l'aîné de ma famille aussi, alors je ne sais pas gâter. Here, this, the eldest in my family too, so I don't know if I'm spoiled. 0:29:31.302 --> 0:29:35.452 Hélène Goulet J'étais très, très responsable, trop responsable, trop responsable. I was very, very responsible, too responsible, too responsible. 0:29:35.692 --> 0:29:38.272 Hélène Goulet C'est encore vrai, d'ailleurs moins pire qu'avant. It's still true, and not as bad as before. 0:29:43.352 --> 0:29:46.822 Gigi Kaur Parce que je suis toujours dans la même situation aussi, mais ce n’est pas l'entrevue de moi. Because I'm always in the same situation too, but it's not my interview. 0:29:46.832 --> 0:29:50.32 Gigi Kaur Je voulais juste vous comprendre à vous, comment vous vous avez grandi. I just wanted to understand you, how you grew up. 0:29:49.92 --> 0:29:52.342 Hélène Goulet Est-ce que vous êtes une, est-ce que tu es une année de famille aussi? Are you one, are you a family year too? 0:29:53.42 --> 0:29:55.792 Gigi Kaur L'aîné, oui, j'avais une famille comme difficile. The eldest, yes, I had a difficult family. 0:29:55.802 --> 0:30:0.642 Gigi Kaur Ma mère est monoparentale, mon père était quelque chose, quelqu'un d'intéressant. My mother is a single parent, my father was something, someone interesting. 0:30:1.292 --> 0:30:13.732 Gigi Kaur Quand je dis intéressant, ce n’est pas un bon truc, j'ai une sœur quand même qu'il y a les problèmes de santé comme elle est aveugle, les muettes elle a autisme et tout fait qu'il fallait que je. When I say interesting, it's not a good thing, I have a sister anyway that there are the health problems as she is blind, mute she has autism and everything that I had to. 0:30:13.782 --> 0:30:17.502 Gigi Kaur J'ai gardé mes responsabilités, puis grandir un peu plus vite que les autres. I kept my responsibilities, then grew up a little faster than the others. 0:30:17.912 --> 0:30:19.522 Hélène Goulet Ouais ça exactement. Yeah, that's right. 0:30:19.532 --> 0:30:22.832 Hélène Goulet Ouais je comprends, je comprends, je ne ça qui est sourde aussi. Yeah, I get it, I get it, I don't know who's deaf too. 0:30:24.62 --> 0:30:26.582 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça qui est sourde, ma sœur aussi. Yeah, that's who's deaf, my sister too. 0:30:26.592 --> 0:30:27.982 Hélène Goulet Ça, ça a été un autre Matisse. That was another Matisse. 0:30:27.992 --> 0:30:33.852 Hélène Goulet Dans la famille aussi parce qu'elle a dû quitter le village pour aller à l'école, alors ça a été difficile pour mes parents. Ouais. In the family too because she had to leave the village to go to school, so it was difficult for my parents. Yeah, it was. 0:30:34.222 --> 0:30:38.392 Gigi Kaur Est-ce que vous avez, comment dire ça, ce que vous avez pris, la langue de singe? Do you have, how do I put this, what you've got, monkey tongue? 0:30:38.932 --> 0:30:41.382 Hélène Goulet Je connais le la langue des signes du Québec. I know Quebec sign language. 0:30:43.532 --> 0:30:50.922 Hélène Goulet Mais à un niveau que je ne considère pas acceptable, mais je connais l'alphabet, les chiffres. But at a level I don't consider acceptable, but I know the alphabet, the numbers. 0:30:50.932 --> 0:31:1.62 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec ma sœur, on s'est développé un système d’où on se comprend quand on se parle, mais je ne suis pas très mon intelligence kinésique. And then with my sister, we've developed a system where we understand each other when we talk, but I'm not very kinetically intelligent. 0:31:2.662 --> 0:31:6.642 Hélène Goulet Euh, score n’est pas très forte, alors j'oublie facilement. Uh, score's not very strong, so I forget easily. 0:31:6.652 --> 0:31:16.402 Hélène Goulet Puis, comme elle travaille bon, on se voit, on se voit moins, on ne se voit pas chaque jour, c'est que c'est plus difficile de conserver le l'acquis, mais maintenant il y a un APP. Then, since she works well, we see each other less, we don't see each other every day, so it's harder to maintain what we've acquired, but now there's an APP. 0:31:19.72 --> 0:31:21.342 Hélène Goulet Avant, j'avais commencé en ligne des cours aussi. Before that, I had started online courses too. 0:31:21.352 --> 0:31:32.762 Hélène Goulet Là elle excuse, j'en ai suivi en personne aussi que j'ai fait certains efforts au fil des ans puis mais j'étais un peu comme la 2e mère de ma sœur parce qu'on avait 9 ans de différence. She's sorry, but I've made some effort over the years, and I was a bit like my sister's 2nd mother because we were 9 years apart. 0:31:33.932 --> 0:31:39.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que j'ai, j'ai eu un rôle important dans la vie de ma sœur. And that's why I played such an important role in my sister's life. 0:31:40.362 --> 0:31:51.972 Gigi Kaur Le Okay je vois clairement que la famille est vraiment importante pour vous depuis très jeune, même avant l'université et cetera fait que ça c'est très, c'est comment dire ça. Okay, I can clearly see that family is really important to you from a very young age, even before university and so on, so that's very, that's how you say it. 0:31:51.982 --> 0:32:9.932 Gigi Kaur C'est très adorable que cette valeur existe toujours parce que les temps ont clairement changé maintenant, mais à propos de on va aller à l'université de toi parce que Ouais, parce que quand même je n’ai pas vraiment votre background, je trouve. It's very adorable that this value still exists because times have clearly changed now, but about we're going to go to college from you because yeah, because still I don't really have your background, I find. 0:32:9.942 --> 0:32:13.832 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes quelqu'un de très responsable, prématurés et très adorable quand même. You're a very responsible, premature, and very adorable person. 0:32:16.272 --> 0:32:18.462 Gigi Kaur Fait, je vais aller sur la prochaine question. Done, I'll go on to the next question. 0:32:19.862 --> 0:32:34.792 Gigi Kaur Les historiens ont beaucoup écrit sur qu'ils appellent la révolution de contre-culture, c'est à dire que votre génération, c'est relié contre les valeurs de de la génération de vos parents, même chose qui arrive aujourd'hui aussi avec pas grand-chose qui a changé. Historians have written a lot about what they call the counter-culture revolution, meaning that your generation is bound up against the values of your parents' generation, the same thing that's happening today too, with not much that's changed. 0:32:35.192 --> 0:32:38.482 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure les membres de votre cercle social? To what extent do the members of your social circle? 0:32:38.492 --> 0:32:45.792 Gigi Kaur Concernent concernent ils qu'il devait se mobiliser pour une société plus juste et un monde meilleur? Are they concerned about mobilizing for a fairer society and a better world? 0:32:48.42 --> 0:32:50.122 Hélène Goulet Plus juste, c'est un monde meilleur. A fairer world means a better world. 0:32:51.592 --> 0:32:52.312 Hélène Goulet Je pense que. I think. 0:32:53.882 --> 0:32:58.202 Hélène Goulet Euh, je pense le cercle de littérature avec dans lequel j'opérais. Uh, I think the circle of literature I was operating with. 0:32:59.742 --> 0:33:17.472 Hélène Goulet Était plus, euh au niveau des idées, c'était vraiment au niveau de tu sais le rôle des femmes, la libération, y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires, pas moi, mais y en a qui avaient multiples partenaires. It was more, uh, in terms of ideas, it was really in terms of you know the role of women, liberation, there were some who had multiple partners, not me, but there were some who had multiple partners. 0:33:17.952 --> 0:33:23.212 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une sorte de révolte, mais c'était. There was a kind of revolt, but it was. 0:33:25.732 --> 0:33:26.502 Hélène Goulet Comment dire? What can I say? 0:33:26.512 --> 0:33:28.72 Hélène Goulet C'était vraiment plus haut niveau. It really wasn't up to scratch. 0:33:32.362 --> 0:33:40.772 Hélène Goulet Des fois, des fois, moi ça ne me choquait pas, pas fâché, mais un peu un choc parce que moi je voulais de mon petit village, on venait juste de passer au feu. Sometimes, sometimes, I wasn't shocked, not angry, but a little shocked because I wanted to be from my little village, we'd just gone through the fire. 0:33:40.782 --> 0:33:43.152 Hélène Goulet Je n’avais pas beaucoup d'argent, il fallait que je travaille. I didn't have much money, so I had to work. 0:33:43.872 --> 0:33:48.732 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ma vie était quand même très réglée mais y a de ces gens-là. You know, my life was very regulated, but there are people like that. 0:33:48.772 --> 0:33:58.252 Hélène Goulet Altération, heure qui venaient de famille beaucoup plus à l'aise que moi, qui vivait à la maison, alors ça ne leur coûtait rien, n’y avait pas de loyer à payer, il y avait tu sais? Alteration, time that came from a family much more comfortable than me, who lived at home, so it cost them nothing, there was no rent to pay, there was you know? 0:33:58.262 --> 0:34:7.202 Hélène Goulet Bon, c'était la vie était facile pour eux et y en avait une que son père était président de du musée des beaux-arts. Well, life was easy for them, and one of them was her father, president of the Musée des Beaux-Arts. 0:34:7.212 --> 0:34:8.212 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, bon, c'était. You know, well, it was. 0:34:10.862 --> 0:34:31.292 Hélène Goulet Y en a qui étaient pauvres, y en a qui qui étaient comme moi, qui fallait que je travaille, puis qui payent leurs affaires, puis tout ça, il y en a qui étaient en couple, qui vivait avec un homme, euh, fait qu'il y avait une variété, mais il y avait une sorte stop-loss sphère peu irréaliste par rapport à la vie. Some were poor, some were like me, I had to work, then pay for my things and all that, some were in a couple, living with a man, um, so there was variety, but there was a kind of stop-loss sphere that was a little unrealistic in terms of life. 0:34:31.892 --> 0:34:36.172 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, une sorte de manque de responsabilité, tu sais, y avait. You know, a kind of lack of responsibility, you know, there was. 0:34:38.42 --> 0:34:41.2 Hélène Goulet Une sorte de de de de désabusés comme. A sort of de de de de disillusioned like. 0:34:44.432 --> 0:34:46.962 Hélène Goulet C'est comme s'il trouvait que la vie ne valait pas la peine d'être vécue. It's as if he didn't think life was worth living. 0:34:48.72 --> 0:35:0.202 Hélène Goulet Il y avait comme une sorte de mentalité un peu, c'est certaines personnes pas tout le monde, mais à literature, c'était beaucoup dilettante, tu sais dilettante, genre. There was a kind of mentality that was a bit, it's some people not everybody, but at literature, it was a lot of dilettante, you know dilettante, like. 0:35:2.102 --> 0:35:3.42 Hélène Goulet C'était à Paris. It was in Paris. 0:35:3.52 --> 0:35:12.102 Hélène Goulet Il serait assis dans un café qui aurait parlé d'idées, puis de toutes sortes d'affaires, mais il n’y aurait pas, et ce n’était pas comme la vraie vie. He'd be sitting in a café talking about ideas, then all sorts of business, but there wouldn't be, and it wasn't like real life. 0:35:12.172 --> 0:35:19.492 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’était pas vraiment comme la vraie vie, je ne sais pas trop comment l'expliquer, mais je ressentais très fortement à l'époque. You know, it wasn't really like real life, I don't really know how to explain it, but I felt very strongly at the time. 0:35:20.12 --> 0:35:34.832 Gigi Kaur Le fait que si je comprends bien, vous dites que dans le groupe de de littérature, c'était plus les idées qui parlaient, c'était plus des gens qui communiquaient, mais au lieu de faire des actions, puis même les communications ont été defois, irréalistes. The fact that if I understand correctly, you're saying that in the literature group, it was more the ideas that spoke, it was more the people who communicated, but instead of taking action, even the communications were sometimes unrealistic. 0:35:35.482 --> 0:35:43.132 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça, alors que pour moi quand j'étais adolescente, dans mon village, j'étais très engagée dans la Communauté. Yeah right, whereas for me when I was a teenager, in my village, I was very involved in the Community. 0:35:43.582 --> 0:35:46.172 Hélène Goulet Mais parents l'étaient, et moi je l'étais aussi. But my parents were, and I was too. 0:35:46.182 --> 0:35:51.222 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, n’y avait rien dans mon village, il n’y avait rien, rien pour distraire les jeunes. I started a youth club, there was nothing in my village, there was nothing, nothing to entertain young people. 0:35:52.52 --> 0:35:59.682 Hélène Goulet Euh Ben j'ai commencé un club de jeunes, j'organisais des danses surveillées par les parents, des concerts. Well, I started a youth club, organizing dances supervised by parents and concerts. 0:35:59.692 --> 0:36:4.472 Hélène Goulet J'ai organisé toutes sortes d'affaires, des orchestres qui venaient pour jouer pour nous, vous pouvez danser. I've organized all kinds of affairs, orchestras coming to play for us, you can dance. 0:36:6.232 --> 0:36:12.622 Hélène Goulet J'ai vraiment été très engagé mais quand je suis arrivée à Ottawa, Ben là, il fallait que je travaille, fallait que j'aille à l'école. I was really committed, but when I arrived in Ottawa, Ben, I had to work, I had to go to school. 0:36:12.632 --> 0:36:18.422 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je n’ai pas fait beaucoup de choses en action sociale moi-même pendant que j'étais à l'université. You know, I didn't do much social work myself while I was at university. 0:36:20.282 --> 0:36:27.932 Hélène Goulet C'est venu, c'est revenu plus tard dans ma vie quand ça avec les enfants aussi, évidemment, c'est m'appliquer à l'école. It came, it came back later in my life when that with the kids too, obviously, it's applied to me at school. 0:36:27.942 --> 0:36:29.62 Hélène Goulet M'appliquer tu sais? Apply myself, you know? 0:36:29.72 --> 0:36:38.272 Hélène Goulet J'ai suivi de mes enfants comme ça, puis après, évidemment, maintenant je suis très engagée dans un dans un en bénévolat. Then, of course, I'm now very, very, very involved in volunteer work. 0:36:38.282 --> 0:36:43.182 Hélène Goulet C'est ça qui m'ont que je fais au moins un débutant, mais au moins débutant. That's why I'm at least a beginner, but at least a beginner. 0:36:58.162 --> 0:36:58.882 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:36:44.322 --> 0:36:59.902 Gigi Kaur Et vous dites que quand vous étiez à l'université d'Ottawa, vous êtes tellement occupé à travailler, à survivre, à gérer tout, à être responsable que vous n’avez pas eu le temps d'être très social dans la Communauté, mais ça, c'est venu dans les périodes fait qu'avec vos enfants, puis après plus tard. And you say that when you were at the University of Ottawa, you were so busy working, surviving, managing everything, being responsible that you didn't have the time to be very social in the Community, but that came in the periods done with your children, then later on. 0:37:0.322 --> 0:37:4.482 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça avant, avant l'université, puis après. Yeah, that's before, before college, then after. 0:37:4.552 --> 0:37:8.512 Hélène Goulet Après que les enfants sont nés aussi, je me suis impliquée dans certaines choses. After the children were born too, I got involved in a few things. 0:37:8.722 --> 0:37:14.942 Hélène Goulet Puis, après que les enfants ont été grands, Ben là, ma vie a complètement changé en termes de dans quoi je m'explique ça? Ouais. Then, after the kids were grown up, well, my life changed completely in terms of how do I explain this? Yeah. 0:37:14.912 --> 0:37:17.582 Gigi Kaur OK c'est OK, c'est compréhensible. Okay, that's understandable. 0:37:18.92 --> 0:37:22.12 Gigi Kaur Alors le prof, je vais faire un petit suivi dans ça? So, teacher, I'm going to do a little follow-up on this? 0:37:22.382 --> 0:37:29.962 Gigi Kaur Dans quelle mesure va génération, pensait-elle, que les notions de vos parents sur le genre, la famille et les relations amoureuses étaient dépassées? To what extent did your generation feel that your parents' notions of gender, family and relationships were outdated? 0:37:30.332 --> 0:37:36.102 Gigi Kaur Je pense que vous êtes déjà répondu, mais je voulais savoir plus sur ce sujet, si ça ne vous dérange pas. I think you've already answered, but I wanted to know more about this subject, if you don't mind. 0:37:36.422 --> 0:37:37.452 Hélène Goulet Oui, non, ça va. Yes, no, I'm fine. 0:37:37.762 --> 0:37:54.792 Hélène Goulet Euh oui, il y avait, il y avait cette ce sens que nos familles, nos parents étaient traditionnelles comme je n’aurais pas pu amener un homme, un jeune homme chez mes parents, puis dormir dans la même Chambre, ça aurait été impensable, même après que j'ai rencontré mon mari pendant 5 ans. Uh yes, there was, there was this sense that our families, our parents were traditional like I wouldn't have been able to bring a man, a young man to my parents, and then sleep in the same room, that would have been unthinkable, even after I'd met my husband for 5 years. 0:37:54.802 --> 0:37:58.862 Hélène Goulet On s'est vu pendant 5 ans, puis il n’y a jamais dormi dans la même chambre que moi chez mes parents. We saw each other for 5 years, then he never slept in the same room as me at my parents' house. 0:37:59.902 --> 0:38:7.142 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai un peu ouvert la voie pour le reste de la famille, toujours comme ça, les aînés ouvrent la voie pour le reste de la famille. But I kind of paved the way for the rest of the family, always like that, the elders pave the way for the rest of the family. 0:38:7.412 --> 0:38:10.112 Hélène Goulet Avec le temps, les mentalités ont changé aussi. Over time, attitudes have changed too. 0:38:10.122 --> 0:38:22.402 Hélène Goulet Mes parents pensaient plus de la même façon non plus, mais je me souviens que ma mère m'avait dit, quand j'ai commencé à enseigner que J’Habitais dans mon propre appartement dans une autre ville, puis elle m'avait dit. My parents didn't think the same way either, but I remember my mother telling me when I started teaching that I lived in my own apartment in another city. 0:38:23.942 --> 0:38:33.452 Hélène Goulet J'espère que tu ne feras rien pour faire honte à ton père, puis là je suis parti à rire, puis je lui ai dit cette conversation-là est arrivé 5 ans trop tard. I hope you won't do anything to shame your father, then I started laughing, then I told him this conversation came 5 years too late. 0:38:40.142 --> 0:38:44.882 Hélène Goulet Mais ma mère n’était pas extrêmement traditionnelle, mais quand même, c'est produit. But my mother wasn't extremely traditional, but still, it's produced. 0:38:44.892 --> 0:38:45.972 Hélène Goulet Sa génération. His generation. 0:38:46.522 --> 0:38:49.332 Hélène Goulet Euh même chose pour la contraception. The same goes for contraception. 0:38:49.342 --> 0:38:57.422 Hélène Goulet Mes parents ont beaucoup souffert de parce qu'il était catholique Romain qu’il n’avait pas le droit d'utiliser la contraception, ma mère a failli mourir à cause de ça. My parents suffered a lot because he was a Roman Catholic and wasn't allowed to use contraception; my mother almost died because of it. 0:38:58.482 --> 0:39:2.972 Hélène Goulet Euh moi j'étais très consciente de ça, j'étais très révoltée contre l'Église. I was very aware of that, and I was very rebellious against the Church. 0:39:2.982 --> 0:39:5.332 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être très révoltée contre l'Église. I began to feel very rebellious towards the Church. 0:39:5.342 --> 0:39:15.722 Hélène Goulet J'étais très jeune, j'avais peut-être 13h quand j'ai commencé à vraiment avoir les gros dans le, les dogmes, puis les la théologie. I was very young, I was maybe 13 when I really started to get the big in the, the dogmas, then the theology. 0:39:15.732 --> 0:39:16.962 Hélène Goulet Là, tu sais la moralité. There, you know there morality. 0:39:18.932 --> 0:39:19.722 Hélène Goulet Catholique romaine. Roman Catholic. 0:39:20.882 --> 0:39:39.522 Hélène Goulet Puis, éventuellement, j'ai quitté l'Église catholique romaine, puis, mais j'ai toujours été pratiquante fait que j'ai choisi d'aller dans des églises où il y avait plus d'actions sociales justement, comme l'Église unie où j'ai passé 10h, puis après ça, j'ai je suis allée dans l'Église anglicane, puis à Ottawa. Then, eventually, I left the Roman Catholic Church, but I've always been a churchgoer, so I chose to go to churches where there was more social action, like the United Church, where I spent 10 hours, and then I went to the Anglican Church, then to Ottawa. 0:39:39.532 --> 0:39:53.462 Hélène Goulet L'Église anglicane est très engagée socialement, cette porte beaucoup, beaucoup de de causes comme le centre 454 well cornerstone, c'est des créations du diocèse anglican d'Ottawa. The Anglican Church is very socially committed, it supports many, many causes such as the 454 well cornerstone center, which is a creation of the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa. 0:39:53.472 --> 0:39:59.312 Hélène Goulet Fait que je me suis appliquée plus à ce niveau-là fait que oui, il y avait. The fact that I applied myself more at that level meant that yes, there was. 0:39:59.352 --> 0:40:3.292 Hélène Goulet Oui, on trouvait que nos parents étaient très vieux jeu. Yes, we thought our parents were very old-fashioned. 0:40:5.252 --> 0:40:22.362 Hélène Goulet Euh, très traditionnel, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté mes parents, tu sais, j'avais des conversations, je n’étais pas toujours d'accord avec eux, mais en même temps j'ai toujours respecté que j'étais dans leur maison quand j'étais là, puis que je suivais les règles. Uh, very traditional, but at the same time I always respected my parents, you know, I had conversations, I didn't always agree with them, but at the same time I always respected that I was in their house when I was there, and that I followed the rules. 0:40:22.412 --> 0:40:23.152 Hélène Goulet 13 ans. 13 years old. 0:40:23.192 --> 0:40:27.12 Hélène Goulet Quand j'étais à l'heure, mais ma vie en dehors de la, c'était ma vie à moi. When I was on time, but my life outside of it was my own. 0:40:28.642 --> 0:40:35.942 Gigi Kaur OK, c'est vraiment intéressant que vous ayez dit à propos de religion parce que je dois même maintenant? OK, that's really interesting what you said about religion because I have to even now? 0:40:35.952 --> 0:40:49.92 Gigi Kaur Les gens dénoncent et il va aller dans un autre ou sinon ils arrêtent complètement mais y a plusieurs choses que vous dites qu'on va maintenant aussi il n’y a pas grand-chose qui a changé, c'est juste là le temps qui a changé, c'est tout. People denounce and he'll go to another or else they stop altogether but there are several things you say we're going to now too there's not much that's changed, it's just there the weather has changed, that's all. 0:40:51.582 --> 0:40:52.452 Gigi Kaur Exactement. Exactly. 0:40:49.592 --> 0:40:53.582 Hélène Goulet Et ça change plus c'est pareil, malheureusement souvent, mais en tout cas. And it changes the more it's the same, unfortunately often, but in any case. 0:40:53.992 --> 0:40:55.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, à propos de ça. Yeah, about that. 0:40:57.642 --> 0:41:5.312 Gigi Kaur Vu, avez-vous eu le sentiment que le système politique était démocratique et quittable et qui répondait aux besoins des citoyens? Did you feel that the political system was democratic and manageable, and that it met the needs of citizens? 0:41:5.322 --> 0:41:7.662 Gigi Kaur On voit ça clairement, ce débat même aujourd? We can see it clearly, this debate even today. 0:41:7.672 --> 0:41:11.662 Gigi Kaur Hui, est-ce que vous voyez ce débat aussi en 1970? Hui, do you also see this debate in 1970? 0:41:12.372 --> 0:41:15.592 Hélène Goulet Je ne me souviens pas vraiment d'avoir eu des conversations comme ça. I don't really remember having conversations like that. 0:41:15.602 --> 0:41:22.132 Hélène Goulet Je n’étais pas très politique à l'époque, ça m'a pris du temps pour devenir plus politique. I wasn't very political at the time, so it took me a while to become more political. 0:41:22.142 --> 0:41:26.502 Hélène Goulet C'est probablement quand j'ai commencé à faire le droit, puis le MDE, où j'ai été plus là. It was probably when I started law school, then MDE, that I was more there. 0:41:26.512 --> 0:41:33.292 Hélène Goulet J'ai commencé à être plus obligé d'une certaine façon de m'intéresser à la politique. I began to feel more compelled in some way to take an interest in politics. 0:41:33.622 --> 0:41:42.512 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a eu toute l'avènement de la Charte des droits, parce que moi, j'ai quand j'étais en droit, c'était le rapatriement de la Constitution 1982. Then there was the whole advent of the Charter of Rights, because when I was in law school, it was the repatriation of the 1982 Constitution. 0:41:42.552 --> 0:41:51.552 Hélène Goulet Moi, j'ai commencé mon droit à 82 et puis j'ai fini à 85 avec l'avènement de la Charte des droits, l'achat de l'égalité. I started law school in '82 and finished in '85 with the advent of the Charter of Rights, the purchase of equality. 0:41:52.232 --> 0:42:3.142 Hélène Goulet Alors quand j'ai commencé à travailler au ministère de la justice, j'ai travaillé beaucoup, beaucoup avec l'achat, avec les droits à l'égalité, fait que je suis devenue pas mal politicien, ouais. So, when I started working at the Ministry of Justice, I worked a lot, a lot with purchasing, with equality rights, so I became quite a politician, yeah. 0:42:5.352 --> 0:42:5.542 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:3.882 --> 0:42:11.82 Gigi Kaur OKOK mais vous avez dit en même temps que ça changeait un peu parce qu'il y avait eu des changements politiques aussi, comme la charte et cetera. OKOK but you said at the same time that it was changing a bit because there had been political changes too, like the charter et cetera. 0:42:14.192 --> 0:42:25.172 Hélène Goulet Ouais, y a eu une plus grande conscientisation, je pense de des droits à l'égalité dans la danse, c'était plus dans les années quatre-vingt, mais c'est sûr qu'il y a eu tout un. Yeah, there was a greater awareness, I think, of equality rights in the eighties, but it was definitely a whole thing. 0:42:31.172 --> 0:42:31.372 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:42:27.242 --> 0:42:32.862 Hélène Goulet Que tout ce qui s'est passé des années 70A, mené à ça aussi tu ne sais rien qui arrive comme ça? That everything that happened in the 70s and 70s led to this, too - you don't know anything that just happens, do you? 0:42:32.872 --> 0:42:39.122 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'est toujours une évolution, une sociale, tu sais qui fait que l'évolution sociale. It's always an evolution, a social evolution, you know. 0:42:39.132 --> 0:42:50.932 Hélène Goulet Arrivé avant de changement à la loi, la plupart du temps, c'est parce qu'il y a une pression, y a une pression de la base, c'est, c'est, ça n’arrive pas par en haut, ça arrive par en bas, même si on ne s’en rend pas trop compte, c'est ça? Most of the time, it's because there's pressure, there's grassroots pressure, it's, it doesn't come from the top, it comes from the bottom, even if you're not too aware of it, right? 0:42:51.942 --> 0:42:59.592 Gigi Kaur Ouais en même chose, on voit ça clairement aujourd'hui aussi, la pression d'en bas qui force les politiciens. Yeah, but at the same time, we're seeing this clearly today too, the pressure from below that forces politicians. 0:42:59.872 --> 0:43:0.62 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:42:59.602 --> 0:43:4.902 Gigi Kaur Le gouvernement à changer leurs documents, et cetera fait qu'on voit clairement la même chose. The government has changed their documents, et cetera, so that we can clearly see the same thing. 0:43:1.372 --> 0:43:14.822 Hélène Goulet Oui, y a on le voit avec la Cour suprême aussi, la Cour suprême, c'est vraiment intéressant parce qu'à l'époque où je faisais mon droit, c'était Borel, le skin qui était le juge en chef de la Cour suprême. It's really interesting because when I was doing my law degree, it was Borel, la skin, who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. 0:43:29.792 --> 0:43:30.82 Gigi Kaur Non? No? 0:43:15.282 --> 0:43:33.732 Hélène Goulet C'était un homme de la gauche était très progressif, très progressif, au point où il était souvent le jugement dissident avec la majorité était ailleurs, n’était pas rendu là encore. He was a man of the left was very progressive, very progressive, to the point where he was often dissenting judgment with the majority was elsewhere, was not rendered there yet. 0:43:34.62 --> 0:43:35.842 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il écrivait des jugements. Then he wrote judgments. 0:43:37.232 --> 0:43:38.842 Hélène Goulet Complètement plus à gauche. Completely more to the left. 0:43:40.352 --> 0:43:58.622 Hélène Goulet Et puis avec le temps, en l'espace de 10 ans, les jugements dissidents de borella skins sont devenus les jugements majoritaires de la Cour suprême, fait qu'il y a eu une grande influence, mais ça a pris quelques années avant que là, là aussi, le gouvernement a commencé à nommer des juges plus à gauche. And then over time, in the space of 10 years, the dissenting judgments of borella skins became the majority judgments of the Supreme Court, so there was a big influence, but it took a few years before there, too, the government started appointing more left-leaning judges. 0:43:58.772 --> 0:44:0.652 Hélène Goulet Aussi, comme il y a eu Bertha Wilson. Also, as there was Bertha Wilson. 0:44:2.192 --> 0:44:3.612 Hélène Goulet Puis il a commencé à voir des femmes. Then he started seeing women. 0:44:5.562 --> 0:44:10.252 Hélène Goulet T'es avec les femmes, on est devenu beaucoup plus à gauche, beaucoup plus à gauche. With women, we've become much more left-wing, much more left-wing. 0:44:10.262 --> 0:44:14.292 Hélène Goulet Les femmes étaient, les femmes étaient beaucoup plus socialement. Women were women were much more social. 0:44:17.82 --> 0:44:22.92 Hélène Goulet Consciente en général, mais bon, laskin a été. Conscious in general, but hey, laskin was. 0:44:22.162 --> 0:44:26.272 Hélène Goulet Puis texel aussi, ça a été des hommes vraiment exceptionnels. And Texel, too, was a truly exceptional group of men. 0:44:26.642 --> 0:44:32.12 Hélène Goulet Puis bureau Wilson fait qu'il y a eu y a eu tout un mouvement, là vers la gauche, plus vers la gauche. Then Wilson's office saw a whole movement to the left, more to the left. 0:44:32.22 --> 0:44:39.962 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, maintenant, c'est plus central centre je dirais, mais en tout cas ça c'était vraiment intéressant à vivre. You know, now it's more centrally located, I'd say, but in any case, it was really interesting to experience. 0:44:41.512 --> 0:44:47.642 Gigi Kaur Vous dites plus à gauche, c'était tout de suite après le 2e Guerre mondiale, ça a pris du temps d'aller sur la gauche. You say more to the left, but that was right after the 2nd World War, so it took a while to move to the left. 0:44:47.792 --> 0:44:49.662 Hélène Goulet Oh, ça a pris du temps, mais c'est. Oh, it took a while, but it's. 0:44:49.672 --> 0:44:57.762 Hélène Goulet C'est à mesure que les droits individuels ont pris de l'importance parce qu'avant la 2e Guerre mondiale, il y avait la déclaration des droits. As time went on, individual rights gained in importance, because before the 2nd World War, there was the Bill of Rights. 0:44:58.792 --> 0:45:3.992 Hélène Goulet Euh, qui avait été passée comme en 1949 après la 2e Guerre mondiale? Er, which had been passed as in 1949 after the 2nd World War? 0:45:4.2 --> 0:45:6.722 Hélène Goulet Je pense, tu le saurais mieux que moi? I think you'd know better than me? 0:45:7.182 --> 0:45:14.122 Hélène Goulet Euh, puis c'est à partir de là que l'avènement des droits individuels a commencé à devenir plus important. Uh, then the advent of individual rights started to become more important. 0:45:14.132 --> 0:45:17.672 Hélène Goulet C'est le rôle des femmes, des femmes qui avaient travaillé pendant la guerre. This is the role of women, women who had worked during the war. 0:45:17.682 --> 0:45:19.232 Hélène Goulet Voulait pas retourner dans leur cuisine. Didn't want to go back to their kitchen. 0:45:21.252 --> 0:45:23.442 Hélène Goulet Y avait goûter à gagner de l'argent. Y had a taste for making money. 0:45:23.572 --> 0:45:29.672 Hélène Goulet Il y avait goûter à être indépendant parce que les maris étaient partis à la guerre, fait que là, il y a eu un changement social sais. There was a taste of independence because the husbands had gone off to war, so there was a definite social change. 0:45:29.682 --> 0:45:34.252 Hélène Goulet On l'a vu avec je ne sais pas si t'as j'ai écouté la série Madden. We saw him with I don't know if you've listened to the Madden series. 0:45:37.562 --> 0:45:39.492 Hélène Goulet Ses unis, on l'a vu dans cette série-là. These unis, we saw it in that series there. 0:45:39.502 --> 0:45:46.432 Hélène Goulet Ben la même chose arrivait au Canada un petit peu en retard, ça fait qu'il y a eu beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup de de changements. Well, the same thing happened in Canada a little late, so there were many, many, many changes. 0:45:46.442 --> 0:45:51.52 Hélène Goulet C'est pour ça que par le temps que moi je t'ai adolescente puis jeune adulte. That's why, over the years, I've had you as a teenager and then as a young adult. 0:45:51.62 --> 0:45:58.492 Hélène Goulet Le côté féministe, il est devenu pas mal fort, pas mal, pas mal fort, tu sais, y avait beaucoup de mouvements féministes à l'époque. The feminist side, it became quite strong, quite strong, quite strong, you know, there were a lot of feminist movements at the time. 0:45:58.502 --> 0:46:6.952 Hélène Goulet Je me souviens, il y avait eu, y a eu la formation de plusieurs organismes féministes de cette époque. I remember the formation of several feminist organizations at the time. 0:46:6.962 --> 0:46:9.602 Hélène Goulet Là aussi, Wen, comment ça s'appelait? Here too, Wen, what was it called? 0:46:11.122 --> 0:46:18.532 Hélène Goulet Il y avait une grosse manifestation à Ottawa, ce n’est pas une manifestation, c'est une comme une espèce de d'énorme conférence. There was a big demonstration in Ottawa, it's not a demonstration, it's like a huge conference. 0:46:18.682 --> 0:46:29.442 Hélène Goulet C'était à cette époque-là que c'est arrivé, je n’ai pas participé mais je me souviens qu'à cette époque-là, dans les années 70, qui a vraiment ça bouge beaucoup au niveau du féminisme. I didn't take part, but I remember that at that time, in the '70s, there was a lot of movement in feminism. 0:46:32.772 --> 0:46:48.62 Gigi Kaur Ouais intéressant, je trouve ça très intéressant car clairement quand vous dites les choses dans ma tête, c'est comme en train de relier avec Aujourd hui puis comme je l'ai dit plusieurs fois ça parle vraiment changer, comment on va beaucoup plus de de féministes donc avec leurs organismes. Yeah interesting, I find it very interesting because clearly when you say things in my head, it's like connecting with Today then as I've said several times it really talks about change, how we're going to a lot more of feminists so with their organizations. 0:46:48.392 --> 0:46:56.312 Gigi Kaur Mais cette fois-ci, c'est plus les, les féministes avec la peau plus brune, c'est là, la couleur, et cetera pense ça. But this time, it's more the, the feminists with the browner skin, it's the, the color, et cetera think it. 0:46:56.312 --> 0:46:56.472 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:46:56.322 --> 0:47:1.472 Gigi Kaur Là, c'est plus les féministes blanches, je ne veux pas dire Blanche, mais tu sais, c'est la réalité. Here, it's more the white feminists, I don't want to say white, but you know, it's reality. 0:46:59.112 --> 0:47:3.972 Hélène Goulet Ouais non c'est vrai non, non, c'est vrai, c'est vrai tout à fait vrai. Yeah, no it's true no, no, it's true, it's true absolutely true. 0:47:3.982 --> 0:47:40.792 Hélène Goulet Il y avait très peu de de femmes non ohh racialiser mais femme autochtone, tu sais, y avait très peu à l'époque dans les mouvements féministes, mais c'est moi ce que je remarque, c'est dans le monde entier, c'est que en Amérique du Nord, comme la conscience féministe, c'est beaucoup plus avancée que puis en Europe aussi que dans d'autres pays, c'est des pays moins développés économiquement ou des pays où le rôle des femmes est encore très traditionnel pour les femmes sont encore. There were very few women who weren't ohh racialized but Aboriginal women, you know, there were very few at the time in the feminist movements, but that's what I notice, it's all over the world, it's that in North America, like feminist consciousness, it's much more advanced than then in Europe too than in other countries, it's less economically developed countries or countries where the role of women is still very traditional for women are still. 0:47:41.122 --> 0:47:45.612 Hélène Goulet Tu sais extrêmement, mais on voit qu'avec le temps, l'influence. You know extremely, but we see that with time, influence. 0:47:45.682 --> 0:47:50.522 Hélène Goulet Lance de des pays où les femmes ont plus de droit. Launches countries where women have more rights. 0:47:59.532 --> 0:47:59.752 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 0:47:50.992 --> 0:48:5.662 Hélène Goulet Il y a comme Bleeding, tu sais, tiens, on voit en Iran en ce moment, tu sais les femmes, puis les hommes, jeunes hommes qui manifestent avec les femmes, c'est ça, c'est, c'est assez nouveau, ça? It's like Bleeding, you know, you see in Iran right now, you know women, then men, young men demonstrating with women, it's that, it's, it's pretty new, that? 0:48:6.712 --> 0:48:10.392 Hélène Goulet Euh, c'est assez nouveau, ce n’est pas juste les femmes toutes seules qui se battent. It's not just women fighting on their own. 0:48:10.402 --> 0:48:12.802 Hélène Goulet Comme en Iran, les jeunes hommes sont là aussi. As in Iran, the young men are there too. 0:48:13.32 --> 0:48:21.992 Hélène Goulet C'est avec les femmes dans les manifestations fait qu'on si on voit qu'il y a des changements, mais c'est tellement lent, tu sais, c'est tellement décourageant par moment, mais. It's with the women in the demonstrations that we if we see that there are changes, but it's so slow, you know, it's so discouraging at times, but. 0:48:23.942 --> 0:48:29.92 Hélène Goulet En Afghanistan test tellement triste ce qui se passe, c'est tellement horrible, tu sais, c'est. In Afghanistan test so sad what's going on, it's so horrible, you know, it's. 0:48:30.942 --> 0:48:33.462 Hélène Goulet Ouais mais les femmes ont goûté à autre chose. Yeah, but women have tasted something else. 0:48:34.632 --> 0:48:42.842 Hélène Goulet Puis, le jour où elles vont avoir la possibilité, elles vont vous vouloir ça encore elles le veulent maintenant, elles ne peuvent pas l'avoir maintenant, mais elles le veulent maintenant. Then, the day they get the chance, they're going to want it again, they want it now, they can't have it now, but they want it now. 0:48:42.852 --> 0:48:54.782 Hélène Goulet En Arabie saoudite, on a vu qu'il y a eu un petit peu de mouvement, c'est lent, c'est extrêmement lent mais en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire maintenant, c'est quoi en Amérique du Nord? In Saudi Arabia, we've seen a little movement, it's slow, it's extremely slow, but in Saudi Arabia, women can drive now, what's it like in North America? 0:48:54.792 --> 0:48:59.672 Hélène Goulet C'est comme en Arabie saoudite, les femmes peuvent conduire une auto maintenant. It's like in Saudi Arabia, women can drive a car now. 0:49:0.152 --> 0:49:3.452 Gigi Kaur Ouais, mais c'était en 2018, je pense que j'étais en secondaire. Yeah, but that was 2018, I think I was in high school. 0:49:3.462 --> 0:49:5.182 Gigi Kaur Ouais, j'étais au secondaire. Yeah, I was in high school. 0:49:5.192 --> 0:49:6.92 Gigi Kaur Enfin en ce temps-là. At least in those days. 0:49:3.152 --> 0:49:7.392 Hélène Goulet Oui, oui, c'est assez, ça, c'est récent hein? Yes, yes, that's enough, it's recent, isn't it? 0:49:8.932 --> 0:49:15.212 Hélène Goulet Ça fait que c'est, c'est l'heure, les, le progrès est extrêmement lent, mais en même temps il est là. That makes it, it's time, the, progress is extremely slow, but at the same time it's there. 0:49:15.322 --> 0:49:19.902 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a comme une sorte d'évolution de la conscience qui se fait très doucement. You know, there's a kind of evolution of consciousness that takes place very slowly. 0:49:21.442 --> 0:49:24.152 Hélène Goulet Puis il y a beaucoup de de recul. Then there's a lot of hindsight. 0:49:25.762 --> 0:49:27.532 Hélène Goulet Comme on l'a vu en Afghanistan. As we saw in Afghanistan. 0:49:27.972 --> 0:49:29.412 Hélène Goulet Et toi, c'est quoi ton background? What's your background? 0:49:31.22 --> 0:49:32.52 Gigi Kaur C'est quoi mon background? What's my background? 0:49:31.32 --> 0:49:34.572 Hélène Goulet Si c'est tu veux me le dire? If do you want to tell me? 0:49:38.92 --> 0:49:38.422 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:32.62 --> 0:49:41.842 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci à mes parents, mes parents sont open jaby fait que noir indienne on dit punjabi, parce qu'on a une situation avec l'Inde, mais ça, c'est une autre histoire, complète. My parents don't have any worries, they're open jaby, which means they're black Indian, Punjabi, because we have a situation with India, but that's another story, complete. 0:49:40.632 --> 0:49:42.792 Hélène Goulet Ouais, ça c'est. Yeah, that's it. 0:49:42.352 --> 0:49:47.702 Gigi Kaur Moi, je moi, je suis née aux États-Unis, je suis venu à l'âge de 10 ans à Montréal. I, myself, was born in the United States and came to Montreal at the age of 10. 0:49:47.992 --> 0:49:48.262 Hélène Goulet OK. OK 0:49:48.112 --> 0:49:52.2 Gigi Kaur C'est pour ça que mon français est plus anglophone, mais des fois je fais des fautes et lever, mais tu sais? That's why my French is more Anglophone, but sometimes I make mistakes and get up, but you know? 0:49:51.972 --> 0:49:56.202 Hélène Goulet Tu passes très bien, tu parles très bien, je t'encourage à continuer parce que tu parles très bien. You pass very well, you speak very well, I encourage you to continue because you speak very well. 0:49:56.852 --> 0:50:0.142 Gigi Kaur Merci beaucoup, mais ça je ne suis pas déjà à la base américaine. Thanks a lot, but I'm not at the American base yet. 0:50:0.152 --> 0:50:2.102 Gigi Kaur Après puis après canadienne. After and after Canadian. 0:50:2.652 --> 0:50:3.552 Hélène Goulet Ouais c'est ça. Yeah, right. 0:50:4.32 --> 0:50:6.902 Hélène Goulet Ouais, j'ai une amie très proche qui est interne. Yeah, I have a very close friend who's an intern. 0:50:7.52 --> 0:50:9.242 Hélène Goulet Elle n’est pas née en Inde, est née ici, mais ça, ça. She wasn't born in India, she was born here, but this, this. 0:50:9.252 --> 0:50:12.682 Hélène Goulet Famille séparent, je pense que ses parents sont nés en Inde. Family separated; I think his parents were born in India. 0:50:12.692 --> 0:50:15.62 Hélène Goulet Oui, c'est pareil, on est en Inde. Yes, it's the same, we're in India. 0:50:13.392 --> 0:50:15.662 Gigi Kaur Ouais, c'est ça qui est plus. Yeah, that's what's more. 0:50:15.672 --> 0:50:22.302 Gigi Kaur Plusieurs Indiens sont les parents sont, viens, font des enfants ici puis après ils font grandir. Many Indians are parents are, come, make children here then afterwards they make grow up. 0:50:22.312 --> 0:50:23.722 Gigi Kaur Et de génération en génération. And from generation to generation. 0:50:23.782 --> 0:50:26.102 Gigi Kaur Je suis certain que vous voyez. I'm sure you can see. 0:50:29.252 --> 0:50:29.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:26.112 --> 0:50:31.702 Gigi Kaur British Colombia y a beaucoup d'Indiens, beaucoup Chinois là-bas, qu'ils étaient là depuis des années et des années, des années. British Colombia there are a lot of Indians, a lot of Chinese there, they've been there for years and years and years. 0:50:32.192 --> 0:50:32.432 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 0:50:32.132 --> 0:50:38.752 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, ça devient un lin de Chine et là ça devient un homme territoire de l'Inde et Chine, et je trouve ça très drôle. Now it's becoming a China flax and now it's becoming a man from India and China, and I think that's very funny. 0:50:44.642 --> 0:50:50.812 Gigi Kaur Ohh prochaine question après y a quelques minutes, je sais, c'est vraiment long, si jamais t'as besoin quelque chose de ce mois, savoir. Ohh next question after a few minutes, I know, it's really long, if you ever need something this month, know. 0:50:50.732 --> 0:50:55.632 Hélène Goulet Ça veut dire moi juste, je vais juste aller allumer mon four parce que j'ai quelque chose à faire cuire. That just means me, I'm just going to go turn on my oven because I've got something to bake. 0:50:55.642 --> 0:50:59.832 Hélène Goulet J'attendais 11h00 pour parce que ça coûte, ça coûte moins cher après 11h. I waited until 11:00 because it costs less after 11:00. 0:51:0.932 --> 0:51:1.532 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci. No worries. 0:51:15.782 --> 0:51:19.802 Hélène Goulet Ouais, je pense que je vais en profiter pour aller aux toilettes, OK, je reviens. Yeah, I think I'm going to use the bathroom, OK, I'll be right back. 0:51:19.362 --> 0:51:20.392 Gigi Kaur Parfait n’y a pas de souci. Perfect, no worries. 0:52:7.712 --> 0:52:7.942 Hélène Goulet OK. Ok 0:52:9.512 --> 0:52:10.162 Gigi Kaur Parfait. Perfect. 0:52:11.542 --> 0:52:15.162 Gigi Kaur Alors, il y a 2 questions qui restent, puis après je vous laisse, j'essaye. So, there are 2 questions left, then I'll leave you to it, I'll try. 0:52:15.172 --> 0:52:46.582 Gigi Kaur On a parlé pour des heures, des heures, des heures, mais je sais que vous avez plein de choses à faire, que je vous laisserai dans quelques minutes si ça ne vous dérange pas en la prochaine question, les historiens de la culture ont aimé affirmer que les l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation des départements, la division de de l'idéologie de l'amour libre, on modifie les relations entre femmes et les pratiques d'amoureuses. We've talked for hours and hours and hours, but I know you've got plenty to do, so I'll leave you in a few minutes if you don't mind the next question, cultural historians have liked to assert that the introduction of the contraceptive pill, the legalization of departments, the division of the ideology of free love, altered relations between women and the practices of lovemaking. 0:52:46.592 --> 0:52:53.702 Gigi Kaur Au début des années 1970, alors la question, c'est, êtes-vous d'accord avec cette information? In the early 1970s, so the question is, do you agree with this information? 0:52:54.722 --> 0:52:55.852 Hélène Goulet Probablement, oui. Probably, yes. 0:53:0.322 --> 0:53:8.722 Hélène Goulet C'est vrai que la traduction de la période moi je n’ai jamais pris ça, mais il y avait beaucoup de conversations sur l'avortement, tout ça, puis ça vraiment. It's true that the translation of the period I never took that, but there were a lot of conversations about abortion, all that, and then that really. 0:53:11.422 --> 0:53:21.772 Hélène Goulet Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 4 vingts, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. Dans les années 94, 85 fois dans les années 20, la question de l'avortement est devenue encore plus présente. 0:53:21.782 --> 0:53:32.362 Hélène Goulet Parce que ça s'est rendu en Cour suprême, il y a eu Morgan Taller, y a eu tout ça et moi j'ai, j'ai été témoin de tout ça parce que j'étais avocate à ce moment-là. Because it went to the Supreme Court, there was Morgan Taller, there was all that and I, I witnessed all that because I was a lawyer at the time. 0:53:35.312 --> 0:53:39.972 Hélène Goulet Mais c'est, c'est sûr que la contraception et ce n’est pas juste la contraception, c'est elle. But it's, it's definitely contraception and it's not just contraception, it's her. 0:53:39.982 --> 0:53:46.422 Hélène Goulet Mélange de à quoi réception, qui devenait disponible, mais aussi là, les mentalités qui avaient changé. A mixture of what reception, which was becoming available, but also the, the mentalities that had changed. 0:53:47.432 --> 0:53:49.112 Hélène Goulet Y a tu sais tout le courant féministe? You know the whole feminist movement? 0:53:51.562 --> 0:53:57.782 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que l'avènement de la d'une contraception fiable aide le mouvement féministe. This is what the advent of reliable contraception has done for the feminist movement. 0:53:57.792 --> 0:54:0.272 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe, c'était là quand même. But the feminist movement was there all the same. 0:54:0.542 --> 0:54:2.392 Hélène Goulet C'est, c'était un parallèle. It's, it was a parallel. 0:54:2.402 --> 0:54:7.82 Hélène Goulet D'une certaine façon, c'est ceux que les femmes qui pouvaient prendre la pilule. In a way, they were the ones who could take the pill. 0:54:9.892 --> 0:54:15.122 Hélène Goulet Qu'il apprenait était probablement avec plus de liberté. That he was learning was probably with more freedom. 0:54:15.132 --> 0:54:16.932 Hélène Goulet Tu sais que celle qui ne la prenait pas? You know the one that didn't? 0:54:20.442 --> 0:54:25.102 Hélène Goulet Mais j'ai l'impression que c'est vraiment en tout cas c'est juste ça, c'est une impression. But I have the impression that it's really just that, it's just an impression. 0:54:25.112 --> 0:54:29.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une opinion que c'est un peu en parallèle, je ne peux pas prouver ça. It's an opinion that it's a bit parallel, I can't prove that. 0:54:29.822 --> 0:54:35.942 Hélène Goulet Mais le mouvement féministe avait vraiment pas, peut-être aidé aussi au développement de la contraception. But the feminist movement really hadn't, perhaps also helped the development of contraception. 0:54:35.952 --> 0:54:40.302 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, il y a peut-être, il y a eu du euh. You know, there may have been, there may have been some uh. 0:54:40.542 --> 0:54:42.972 Hélène Goulet Une chose à nourri l'autre tu sais, c'est un peu comme. One thing fed the other, you know, it's kind of like. 0:54:45.812 --> 0:55:7.252 Hélène Goulet Le fait qu'il y avait la pilule contraceptive, ça aide à des femmes à limiter le nombre d'enfants qu'elles avaient, ça les a aidés à pouvoir travailler, ça aide les employeurs à voir les femmes comme fiables sur le marché du travail parce qu'elle elle aurait plus d'enfants qu'il y a eu tout tu sais tout ça, ce influençait un l'autre. The fact that there was the contraceptive pill, it helped women limit the number of children they had, it helped them be able to work, it helped employers see women as reliable on the job market because she would have more children than there were all you know all that, it influenced one another. 0:55:7.262 --> 0:55:16.452 Hélène Goulet Finalement, ce n’est pas une chose qui a fait que tout ça est arrivé, c'est vraiment y avait un mouvement social, il y avait. Finally, it's not one thing that made all this happen, it's really that there was a social movement, there was. 0:55:16.102 --> 0:55:18.542 Gigi Kaur Il y a des choses qui accumulées pour ce moment-là. There are things built up for that moment. 0:55:19.92 --> 0:55:20.892 Hélène Goulet Ouais, absolument ouais. Yeah, absolutely yeah. 0:55:20.942 --> 0:55:22.202 Hélène Goulet Y a eu toutes sortes de choses. There were all kinds of things. 0:55:22.782 --> 0:55:30.142 Gigi Kaur OKOK bah même chose maintenant, je pense que les constructifs sont très présents. OKOK bah same thing now, I think the constructivists are very present. 0:55:30.442 --> 0:55:40.292 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, je pense que les policiers veut enlever pour que pour surtout le comme surtout avortement toujours présent fait que ouais, ça c'est un autre débat complet différent. Now, I think the cops want to remove so that for especially the as especially abortion still present makes that yeah, that's another whole different debate. 0:55:40.302 --> 0:55:40.842 Gigi Kaur Mais ouais. But Yes 0:55:40.132 --> 0:55:46.662 Hélène Goulet Ouais, puis on n'est-ce pas qu’il n’y aura pas trop d'influence américaine sur ce qui se passe au Canada? Yeah, and don't you think there won't be too much American influence on what happens in Canada? 0:55:46.672 --> 0:55:56.612 Hélène Goulet Parce que jusqu'à maintenant, je dirais qu au Canada, on est beaucoup plus ouvert par rapport à l'avortement, puis à la pilule, la pilule, avoir avorté. Because until now, I'd say that in Canada, we're much more open about abortion, and then the pill, the pill, having an abortion. 0:55:56.622 --> 0:55:57.852 Hélène Goulet Cie, avertir. Cie, warn. 0:56:1.2 --> 0:56:7.132 Hélène Goulet Je pense qu au Canada, les politiciens ont très peur d'ouvrir ce sujet-là parce qu'ils savent qu’ils n’ont pas d'appui. I think that in Canada, politicians are very afraid to open up this subject because they know they don't have the support. 0:56:7.182 --> 0:56:11.402 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, les Canadiens en général sont plus à gauche sur ce sais. You know, Canadians in general are more to the left on this one. 0:56:11.412 --> 0:56:22.252 Hélène Goulet C'est sûr qu'il y a des, y a des groupes, y a des groupes qui traditionnels, mais ils auraient beaucoup de mal à se faire élire comme gouvernement au Canada. Of course, there are some traditional groups, but they would have a hard time getting elected as a government in Canada. 0:56:22.382 --> 0:56:23.662 Hélène Goulet Encore jusqu'à maintenant. Until now. 0:56:25.312 --> 0:56:32.972 Hélène Goulet Mais aux États-Unis, c'est assez peur, c'est qu'on voit ce qui se passe aussi unis en général sur bien des sujets. But in the U.S., it's pretty scary, because we see what's going on united in general on a lot of issues. 0:56:32.752 --> 0:56:36.832 Gigi Kaur Attends, attends, être un Américain, je peux vous confirmer que c'est le? Wait, wait, being an American, I can confirm that this is the? 0:56:40.622 --> 0:57:0.172 Gigi Kaur Alors la dernière question, je pense que ouais, c'est la dernière question, alors notre génération intéressée par un mouvement de l'amour libre qu'elle était la perception des relations avant le mariage sur le campus de l'université d'Ottawa dans les années 1970, étiez vu négativement. So, the last question, I think yeah, this is the last question, so our generation interested in a free love movement what the perception of premarital relationships on the University of Ottawa campus in was the 1970s, were seen negatively. 0:57:0.182 --> 0:57:7.152 Gigi Kaur Accepter ou même encourager dans cette période, dans ce mouvement, dans cette mentalité, idéologie? To accept or even encourage in this period, in this movement, in this mentality, ideology? 0:57:8.432 --> 0:57:13.392 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, ce n’est pas vraiment dans le cercle dans lequel j'opérais c'était accepté. You know, it's not really in the circle I was operating in that was accepted. 0:57:14.802 --> 0:57:15.902 Hélène Goulet Encourager? Encourage? 0:57:16.312 --> 0:57:17.352 Hélène Goulet Pas nécessairement. Not necessarily. 0:57:18.252 --> 0:57:30.402 Hélène Goulet Euh, mais c'était accepté en général, comme il n’y avait pas de choc, quelqu'un disait qu'il y avait qui était qui avait des relations avec quelqu'un ou qui habitait avec quelqu'un qui n’était pas marié. Uh, but it was accepted in general, as there was no shock, someone would say that there was who was who had relations with someone or who lived with someone who wasn't married. 0:57:30.412 --> 0:57:35.32 Hélène Goulet Il n’y avait pas de choc, il n’y avait pas, tu sais, c'était. There was no shock, there was no, you know, it was. 0:57:35.72 --> 0:57:36.712 Hélène Goulet C'était vu comme assez ordinaire. It was seen as quite ordinary. 0:57:37.842 --> 0:57:38.92 Gigi Kaur OK. Ok 0:57:38.732 --> 0:57:54.782 Hélène Goulet Ouais je ne sais pas ou.de vue comme si les relations multiples était aussi accepté mais quand t'avais un copain puis que tu que tu que t'avais des relations avec ton copain, ça c'était accepté. Yeah, I don't know, like multiple relationships were also accepted, but when you had a boyfriend and then you had relationships with your boyfriend, that was accepted. 0:57:55.652 --> 0:58:8.912 Hélène Goulet Si y avait eu des orgies, je ne sais pas si moi ce n’est pas mon monde, mais y en avait sûrement parce que moi je suis très naïve mais il y en avait sûrement, mais ce n’est pas mon monde, c'est que je ne peux pas vraiment parler. If there had been orgies, I don't know if it's not my world, but there probably were, because I'm very naive, but there probably were, but it's not my world, so I can't really talk. 0:58:12.52 --> 0:58:12.262 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 0:58:9.812 --> 0:58:14.372 Gigi Kaur Et vous avez participé une blague, t'as pas besoin de répondre, t'as pas besoin de répondre. And you participated in a joke, you don't have to answer, you don't have to respond. 0:58:14.912 --> 0:58:17.322 Hélène Goulet Non, ce n’est pas mon bag. No, it's not my bag. 0:58:19.522 --> 0:58:24.222 Gigi Kaur Mais je pense que dans le 1970 et même 4 Vingts, c'était la période, vraiment. But I think in the 1970s and even the 4 Twenties, that was the period, really. 0:58:26.392 --> 0:58:30.262 Gigi Kaur Très, ouvert avec les origines, avec multi partenaires, et cetera. Very, open with origins, with multi partners, et cetera. 0:58:30.272 --> 0:58:33.632 Gigi Kaur Fait, ouais, je suis, je ne serai pas surprise non plus. Fact, yeah, I am, I won't be surprised either. 0:58:33.702 --> 0:58:35.422 Gigi Kaur Maintenant, c'est en train de diminuer à dire. Now it's dwindling to say. 0:58:36.742 --> 0:58:54.782 Hélène Goulet Je pense que quand j'ai commencé à enseigner à Cornwall en 1975, j'ai appris un moment donné pendant que j'étais là pendant 2 ans, qu’il y avait des orgies, des adultes, pas des pas des jeunes et des adultes professionnels. I think when I started teaching in Cornwall in 1975, I learned at one point while I was there for 2 years, that there were orgies, adults, not youths and professional adults. 0:58:54.792 --> 0:58:58.592 Hélène Goulet Il y avait des y avait des, des échanges de coupes. There were exchanges of cups. 0:58:59.912 --> 0:59:2.112 Hélène Goulet C'est l'équivalent à peu près de notre d'énergie. It's roughly equivalent to our energy consumption. 0:59:2.122 --> 0:59:7.2 Hélène Goulet Au fond des échanges de couples qui se passaient dans des parties. Basically, it's about couples exchanging ideas at parties. 0:59:7.12 --> 0:59:15.102 Hélène Goulet Puis tu sais, ça m'avait, à l'époque, je suis très surprise que j'étais très naïve, mais j'étais très naïve d'un petit village. At the time, I'm very surprised that I was so naive, but I was very naive from a small village. 0:59:16.642 --> 0:59:23.832 Hélène Goulet Et puis après ça, j'ai appris que dans c'était très populaire dans les petites villes, les gros villages et les petites villes. And then after that, I learned that in it was very popular in small towns, big villages, and small cities. 0:59:23.842 --> 0:59:27.822 Hélène Goulet Il y avait beaucoup de ça qui se passaient beaucoup, beaucoup de ça qui se passait. There was a lot of that going on, a lot of that going on. 0:59:28.252 --> 0:59:30.722 Hélène Goulet Ça fait probablement que l'université aussi me. That probably makes the university me too. 0:59:31.652 --> 0:59:33.852 Gigi Kaur Alors, les couples qui s'échangent, c'est ça? So, swapping couples, right? 0:59:34.492 --> 0:59:42.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, des échanges de coups Ninja, qui organise un groupe actif, puis tout le monde qui était, se présentait au party. Yes, exchanges of Ninja blows, which organizes an active group, then everyone who was, showed up at the party. 0:59:42.242 --> 0:59:45.42 Hélène Goulet Puis je pense que ça se passait même au parti. Then I think it even happened at the party. 0:59:45.52 --> 0:59:47.632 Hélène Goulet J'ai aucune idée parce que je ne l’ai pas fait, mais. I have no idea because I haven't done it, but. 0:59:49.372 --> 0:59:54.992 Hélène Goulet C'était en tout cas pour moi, ça a toujours été représenté. At least for me, it was always represented. 1:0:0.672 --> 1:0:2.362 Hélène Goulet Un manque de spiritualité? A lack of spirituality? 1:0:4.932 --> 1:0:5.692 Gigi Kaur Qu'est-ce que vous voulez dire? What's that supposed to mean? 1:0:4.942 --> 1:0:11.572 Hélène Goulet Pour moi, pour moi, Ben c'est, c'est très personnel, c'est une opinion, je suis d'accord, tu sais, ce n’est peut-être pas vrai. For me, for me, Ben it's, it's very personal, it's an opinion, I agree, you know, it may not be true. 1:0:11.582 --> 1:0:23.992 Hélène Goulet Mais pour moi, c'est vrai que quand on a une vie spirituelle, pas religieuse, là à la messe, ce n’est pas ça que je veux dire, une vie spirituelle, qu'on est dans un cheminement de croissance personnelle et spirituelle. But for me, it's true that when you have a spiritual life, not a religious one, that's not what I mean, a spiritual life, that you're on a journey of personal and spiritual growth. 1:0:24.52 --> 1:0:29.482 Hélène Goulet Allô que cette sorte de chose là vous intéresse vraiment pas comme on est. Hello that sort of thing really doesn't interest you the way we are. 1:0:29.492 --> 1:0:51.332 Hélène Goulet On veut avoir une relation avec quelqu'un, tu sais une relation qui, OK, qui est en accord avec les principes d'amour de tu sais, de d'engagement de, tu sais même maintenant je ne pourrais pas avoir 2 partenaires en même temps, j'en suis incapable. We want to have a relationship with someone, you know a relationship that, OK, that's in line with the principles of love of you know, of commitment of, you know even now I couldn't have 2 partners at the same time, I'm incapable of it. 1:0:51.342 --> 1:0:58.312 Hélène Goulet Puis pourtant, j'ai un enfant, un de mes enfants, qui est bisexuel et polyamour? And yet, I have a child, one of my children, who is bisexual and polyamorous? 1:0:59.772 --> 1:1:1.142 Hélène Goulet Alors tu sais qui est très lui? So, you know who's really him? 1:1:3.182 --> 1:1:4.432 Hélène Goulet C'est très ouvert ça. That's very open. 1:1:4.442 --> 1:1:6.372 Hélène Goulet Puis lui, il participé à toutes sortes d'affaires. Then he was involved in all kinds of business. 1:1:6.382 --> 1:1:15.832 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, je ne mets pas tout savoir parce que je n’ai pas besoin de le savoir, ce n’est pas ma vie à moi, mais je sais que ça existe encore. You know, I don't want to know everything because I don't need to know, it's not my life, but I know it still exists. 1:1:15.842 --> 1:1:20.542 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, y a un monde dans lequel ça, c'est choses, là arrivent, ça passe. You know, there's a world in which these, these things, these things come, they go. 1:1:22.402 --> 1:1:24.942 Hélène Goulet Ça fait bon, je m'en vais avec ça je pense. That's good, I think I'll leave with that. 1:1:26.692 --> 1:1:27.462 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, hein? No worries, eh? 1:1:24.952 --> 1:1:30.242 Hélène Goulet Je suis sortie du sujet, ouais c'est ça, c'est ça, ça fait que pour moi ça, ça a toujours été. I've gone off topic, yeah that's it, that's it, that's what it's always been for me. 1:1:32.122 --> 1:1:42.772 Hélène Goulet C'est des gens qui a comme un vide à l'intérieur, puis remplisse le vide avec des choses comme ça parce qu'il pense que ça va remplir le vide, mais ça ne remplit pas le vide, puis éventuellement s'en rencontre. It's people who have a kind of emptiness inside them, then fill the emptiness with things like that because they think it'll fill the emptiness, but it doesn't, and then eventually they run into it. 1:1:42.782 --> 1:1:46.992 Hélène Goulet C'est comme remplir le vide avec l'alcool, remplir le vide, une sorte d'addiction. It's like filling the void with alcohol, filling the void, a kind of addiction. 1:1:47.2 --> 1:1:59.422 Hélène Goulet Au fond, c'est une sorte de dépendance à quelque chose qui n’est pas, qui n’est pas bon à long terme, c'est qui n’est pas simple pour la personne humaine à long terme, mais ça c'est une opinion personnelle. Basically, it's a kind of dependence on something that's not, that's not good in the long term, that's not simple for the human being in the long term, but that's a personal opinion. 1:2:3.42 --> 1:2:3.252 Hélène Goulet Non? Non? 1:2:0.152 --> 1:2:3.302 Gigi Kaur Ouais, n’y a pas de souci, vous avez droit à votre opinion personnelle, hein? Yeah, don't worry, you're entitled to your own opinion, aren't you? 1:2:10.312 --> 1:2:12.402 Hélène Goulet Ohh, alors elle, c'est ça? Ohh, so that's her, is it? 1:2:3.682 --> 1:2:18.702 Gigi Kaur C'est ça ne veut pas dire que Trudeau éliminé, le Censorship que ne t’as pas le droit de dire que ce que vous voulez, je moi je suis très à cœur avec vous parce que moi je n’aurais pas capable d’avoir 562 personnes, c'est trop, c'est trop. It doesn't mean that Trudeau eliminated the Censorship, that you don't have the right to say what you want, I'm very sympathetic to you because I wouldn't have been able to get 562 people, it's too much, it's too much. 1:2:19.132 --> 1:2:22.192 Gigi Kaur Même avec moi, des fois je suis un peu trop, hein, je suis comme. Even with me, sometimes I'm a bit too much, eh, I'm like. 1:2:21.892 --> 1:2:28.112 Hélène Goulet Ouais tout à fait la vie, elle est la vie est assez ouais, submergeant par moment. Yeah, quite life, it's life is quite yeah, overwhelming at times. 1:2:28.902 --> 1:2:34.782 Gigi Kaur Fait que la spiritualité, je comprends très bien, je suis très d'accord avec vous sur ça mais. The fact that there spirituality, I understand very well, I agree with you on that but. 1:2:36.702 --> 1:2:36.862 Gigi Kaur Ouais. Yes 1:2:34.392 --> 1:2:40.12 Hélène Goulet C'est, j'ai dit à une amie une fois parce qu’après ma séparation, j'ai eu plusieurs partenaires. That's what I told a friend once, because after my separation, I had several partners. 1:2:40.52 --> 1:2:51.452 Hélène Goulet Au fil du temps, c'est à 13 ans, c'est certains qui ont duré plus longtemps que d'autres et je disais à mon ami, j'ai dit, je suis Cyril monogame est. Over time, that's at 13, it's some that lasted longer than others and I said to my friend, I said, I'm Cyril monogamous is. 1:2:52.992 --> 1:2:54.382 Hélène Goulet Sérieux monogames. Serious monogamists. 1:2:54.442 --> 1:2:59.112 Hélène Goulet Rien parce que j'ai été marié pendant très longtemps, 30 ans. Nothing because I've been married for a very long time, 30 years. 1:2:59.542 --> 1:3:10.332 Hélène Goulet Et puis je fais des choses à comprendre puis à vivre après, mais malgré ça, c'était quand même très laisse. And then I do things I have to understand and then live through afterwards, but despite that, it was still very much on the leash. 1:3:10.342 --> 1:3:10.952 Hélène Goulet Pensable? Thinkable? 1:3:10.962 --> 1:3:16.192 Hélène Goulet C'est ce que la personne que j'ai vécu, puis c'était toujours des personnes avec qui j'étais dans une sorte de relation. That's what the person I experienced, and then it was always people with whom I had some kind of relationship. 1:3:16.202 --> 1:3:24.42 Hélène Goulet Ce n’était pas One Night stand de rencontrer dans un bar puis où je n’allais pas de toute façon, mais tu sais, c'était des gens que j'avais rencontrés. It wasn't One Night stand to meet in a bar then where I wasn't going anyway, but you know, it was people I'd met. 1:3:24.52 --> 1:3:37.772 Hélène Goulet Puis avec qui j'avais une relation, ne sais pas nécessairement là le grand amour de ma vie, mais quand même une relation exclusivement monogame de part et d'autre. Then with whom I had a relationship-not necessarily the great love of my life, but an exclusively monogamous relationship on both sides. 1:3:45.922 --> 1:3:49.612 Gigi Kaur Moi, je pense qu'il faut que j'aille applique aussi, il faut l'appeler. I think I'd better go and apply it too, give it a call. 1:3:50.332 --> 1:3:52.142 Hélène Goulet Ouais, monogame en série. Yeah, serial monogamist. 1:3:52.152 --> 1:3:57.512 Hélène Goulet C'est Ben, c'est ça comme je pense qu'en général, la plupart des gens sont ça. That's Ben, that's the way I think most people are. 1:3:57.552 --> 1:4:8.32 Hélène Goulet Des Monogrammes en Syrie, c'est comme on, on reste plus dans des relations qui nous, ils ne sont pas bonnes pour notre croissance, qui ne sont pas bonnes pour notre évolution. Monograms in Syria, it's like we, we stay more in relationships that we, they are not good for our growth, that are not good for our evolution. 1:4:8.42 --> 1:4:8.472 Hélène Goulet Tu sais, puis. You know, then. 1:4:10.442 --> 1:4:11.362 Hélène Goulet Ça c'est bon ça. That's good. 1:4:11.372 --> 1:4:17.62 Hélène Goulet Je pense que c'est une bonne chose, ce n’est pas, tu sais de pas endurer des choses qu’on ne devrait pas durer. I think it's a good thing, it's not, you know not putting up with things you shouldn't. 1:4:17.72 --> 1:4:17.812 Hélène Goulet C'est une bonne chose. This is a good thing. 1:4:20.32 --> 1:4:25.42 Gigi Kaur Mais merci de tout me d'expliquer, répondre à mes questions. But thank you for explaining everything to me and answering my questions. 1:4:25.52 --> 1:4:30.2 Gigi Kaur J'ai eu tellement d'informations, j'ai comme je vous ai dit au milieu de de l'entrevue. I've got so much information, as I told you in the middle of the interview. 1:4:30.12 --> 1:4:37.102 Gigi Kaur Je vous adore parce que je trouve qu'on les similaires moi même si je ne suis pas beaucoup parlé de moi, ce n’est pas une entrevue de moi, c'est plus de vous. I adore you because I think they're similar to me, even though I don't talk much about myself. It's not an interview with me, it's more about you. 1:4:37.312 --> 1:4:45.852 Gigi Kaur Je vois clairement qu'on est parce que des fois quand je parle avec d'autres personnes, je dis toujours à ma old Soul and Young Bury. I can clearly see that we are because sometimes when I talk to other people, I always say to my old Soul and Young Bury. 1:4:46.912 --> 1:4:48.192 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça exactement. Yeah, that's it exactly. 1:4:49.122 --> 1:5:0.322 Gigi Kaur Fait que des fois, quand je pense certaines choses, puis je l'explique, tu sais comment je suis vraiment une grande mère, c'est, ce n’est pas comme je ne peux pas connecter métiers quand je vous vois, je suis comme Okay, je comprends pourquoi je pense de cette manière. Does that sometimes, when I think certain things, then I explain it, you know how I'm really a big mom, it's, it's not like I can't connect trades when I see you, I'm like okay, I understand why I think that way. 1:5:0.952 --> 1:5:10.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est bon parce que c'est peut-être que tu es, c'est, c'est peut-être t'es peut-être pas dans ta première vie, ton âme, mais peut-être pas dans sa première vie. Yeah, it's okay because maybe you are, it's, it's maybe you're not in your first life, your soul, but maybe not in its first life. 1:5:10.462 --> 1:5:13.872 Hélène Goulet Il y a peut-être une autre vie avant, c'est ça? Maybe there's another life before, right? 1:5:13.882 --> 1:5:19.452 Hélène Goulet Je crois ça, moi, personnellement, je crois, je crois, que l'homme peut choisir de revenir. I personally believe that man can choose to come back. 1:5:19.622 --> 1:5:22.692 Hélène Goulet C'est que Ouais, Ben je crois ça. Yeah, well, I think so. 1:5:22.702 --> 1:5:30.352 Hélène Goulet Je sais que ce n’est pas, ce n’est pas une croyance chrétienne populaire, mais de toute façon mes croyances sont tellement évoluées. I know it's not, it's not a popular Christian belief, but anyway my beliefs are so evolved. 1:5:32.102 --> 1:5:35.652 Gigi Kaur Mais c'est ça, c'est la vie, c'est l'évolution, s’est-il faut, il faut évoluer. But that's it, that's life, that's evolution, it's necessary, it's necessary to evolve. 1:5:35.852 --> 1:5:37.22 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:5:36.2 --> 1:5:38.42 Gigi Kaur Si tu n’évolue pas, ouais. If you don't evolve, yeah. 1:5:39.282 --> 1:5:43.302 Hélène Goulet Ouais exactement tu vois du poids, tu m'as, c'est ça. Yeah, exactly you see weight, you got me, that's it. 1:5:43.342 --> 1:5:49.862 Hélène Goulet C'est si on y va, on n’avance pas, on recule parce qu’on ne peut pas rester statique, c'est, c'est un principe de vie, d'être dynamique alors. It's if you go, you don't go forward, you go back because you can't stay static, it's, it's a principle of life, to be dynamic then. 1:5:50.822 --> 1:5:55.632 Gigi Kaur Ouais alors est-ce que t'es une dernière question? Yeah, so do you have any last questions? 1:5:55.642 --> 1:5:57.162 Gigi Kaur Mais est-ce que vous voulez dire quelque chose d'autre? But is there anything else you'd like to say? 1:5:57.172 --> 1:5:59.192 Gigi Kaur Propos de Yoann les idéologies? Yoann's comments on ideologies? 1:5:59.202 --> 1:6:1.102 Gigi Kaur Vous avez trouvé que vous avez beaucoup d'idées déjà? Have you come up with a lot of ideas yet? 1:6:1.762 --> 1:6:7.952 Hélène Goulet J'ai, j'ai beaucoup dit déjà, puis je voulais expliquer pourquoi je ne voulais pas mettre de photos. I've said a lot already, and then I wanted to explain why I didn't want to put any photos. 1:6:8.42 --> 1:6:21.352 Hélène Goulet Parce qu'avec l'intelligence artificielle maintenant, je trouve que c'est tellement dangereux qu'on utilise notre identité à des mauvaises fins, puis dans mon monde dans lequel j'ai opéré, je suis assez connue. Because with artificial intelligence now, I think it's so dangerous for our identity to be used for the wrong purposes, and then in my world where I've operated, I'm pretty well known. 1:6:21.882 --> 1:6:30.22 Hélène Goulet Et puis ça fait que c'est un peu nerveuse par rapport à ça, c'est pour ça que je ne voulais pas que ça soit mis sur le site. And that makes me a bit nervous about it, which is why I didn't want to put it on the site. 1:6:31.702 --> 1:6:34.312 Gigi Kaur Site web de Iowa, Ouais. Website of Iowa, Yeah. 1:6:30.62 --> 1:6:43.122 Hélène Goulet Je ne sais pas, le site vie la vie sur le campus, soit que je n'ai pas d'objection à utiliser mes initiales, puis utiliser le l'enregistrement dans les salles de classe parce que personne ne peut l'associer à qui la personne? I don't know, site life campus life, either I don't mind using my initials, then use the recording in the classrooms because no one can associate it with who the person? 1:6:43.632 --> 1:6:46.252 Hélène Goulet Parce qu’autrement, je trouve qu'il y a beaucoup de risques. Because otherwise, I think there are a lot of risks. 1:6:46.262 --> 1:6:54.62 Hélène Goulet Maintenant, je ne suis pas très active sur les réseaux sociaux non plus parce que je pense ça non plus, je n’ai pas le temps. Now, I'm not very active on social networks either because I don't have the time. 1:6:55.372 --> 1:6:58.162 Gigi Kaur Vous êtes trop engagés dans la Communauté, ce qu'il faut? You're too involved in the Community, what's needed? 1:6:58.62 --> 1:7:1.122 Hélène Goulet Ouais, c'est ça, c'est ça. Yeah, that's it, that's it. 1:7:7.182 --> 1:7:7.362 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:6:59.842 --> 1:7:8.122 Gigi Kaur Oh mais bon je vous laisserai parce que déjà vous étiez là avec moi pendant 1h je vois clairement sur le. Oh well, I'll leave you to it because you were already there with me for 1 hour I can see clearly on the. 1:7:8.432 --> 1:7:19.722 Gigi Kaur Le petit timer fait que merci énormément si jamais t'as d'autres questions ou si vous voulez faire notre projet avec moi, n'hésitez pas à me contacter en espérant que je peux vous contacter aussi si jamais. The small timer makes that thank you very much if you ever have any other questions or if you want to do our project with me, do not hesitate to contact me hoping that I can contact you too if ever. 1:7:19.602 --> 1:7:23.232 Hélène Goulet Oui, certainement, ça me ferait plaisir de te mieux te connaître. Yes, certainly, I'd love to get to know you better. 1:7:26.282 --> 1:7:26.602 Hélène Goulet Okay? Ok 1:7:30.232 --> 1:7:30.452 Hélène Goulet Ouais. Yes 1:7:24.232 --> 1:7:33.372 Gigi Kaur Il n’y a pas de souci, merci beaucoup, puis fait qu’alors je vais couper le brocoli Bing ici fait que c'est ça, c'est top recording. No worries, thank you very much, then fact that then I'll cut the broccoli Bing here makes that's it, it's top recording. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hours, 7 minutes, 33 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goulet, Hélène (interview) Description An account of the resource The 1970s experience : Protest, Activism, Vietnam War, Feminism, 70s Media, UOttawa Campus, Francophone. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 30, 2023 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Thomas Boogaart Relation A related resource Goulet, Helene Language A language of the resource French Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Abortion Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Dating Drugs Faculty of Arts Faculty of Law Feminism Gender Generational Differences Marriage Popular Music Queer Religion Sexuality Sports Student Life The Pill University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Wang, Jonathan S. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M. L (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview British Columbia, via phone call Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Jonathan: Uh, hello? (00:00:19) L.M.: Hello? Jonathan: Hello, uh, L. Is this L.? L.M.: Yes. Can you hear me? Jonathan: Yeah, I can hear you. L.M.: OK. Well, that's good. Jonathan: OK. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this again. I, I can't believe. The last time didn't record anything. Uh. L.M.: Yeah, that's too bad. However, we'll try again. Jonathan: Yeah, we'll try again. Thank. Thank you so much for this, L.M.: You're welcome. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. Today is October 24th. And let us begin the interview. I'm gonna, I'm just going to go through all the questions in order this time. OK. So the first question about the popular culture of the time: “there were less electronics in Canadian society in the 1970s. How did you spend your leisure time”, or what did you do for fun? L.M.: I used to go swimming at the pool of University of Ottawa. I used to go skating on the canal. I used to go to the National Art Centre and the National Gallery and I used to have, go to restaurants or pubs with friends. (1:19) Jonathan: OK and, uh, were these restaurants, pubs the most popular hangout spots? L.M.: Uh, no. I used to go to a good Indian restaurant with my boyfriend that was on Nam. That was near the university and there was a creperie down on Rideau St. and there was Nate’s Delicatessen. Yeah, it was good. But yeah, I guess they were popular enough. I don't know. (01:52) Jonathan: But did you know any like, super popular places? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? OK then. Hmm. Well, yeah, that's that, I guess. Anyhow, you listen to- L.M.: That's right, I'm. I'm not really. I don't really fit the mold for wherever this this project is trying to go, I think anyway. Jonathan: Yeah. The super average student, I guess. Well, you listen to a lot of music during the time, right? L.M.: Yeah, I listen to folk music primarily. Jonathan: Yeah, hello. Folk and classical, you said last time. L.M.: Yeah, folk and classical. But I listen to, you know, I'm listened to Joan Baez. That's she would have been. She was popular in the time because she certainly was a, an, a political activist. Jonathan: Oh, but- (3:03) L.M.: So there you go. Jonathan: With the music, did you attend any live, live music concerts? L.M.: Well, as I said, yeah, some, some classical at the arts centre. I went to a couple of shows in Montreal, I went down to Montreal and heard Gilles Vigneault and Michel Fugain. At the Art Centre in Montreal. Jonathan: Yeah, the Arts in Montreal. Damn. Honestly, I don't, I don't even know any of these names. L.M.: Well, that's not surprising. They're they're, they're francophone, for one thing, so they're probably not culture that you're familiar with, and they're from the 70s, so. Jonathan: Yeah, long time. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. So you want to hear me say things like, oh, yeah, I went to The Rolling Stones and the Grateful Dead and. Jonathan: Well, it would be a lot more convenient if you did. L.M.: You'd have boxes that you could tick off. (4:00) Jonathan: Yeah, and be a lot easier to write everything. Ohh. OK, so the next part “we use the term party culture to describe certain universities.” How would you describe the “party culture” in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: That well, I wasn't particularly aware of it. I don't know if it was if it was around there, there used to be dances at the the first year I was in residence and there were often dances in the in the residence beside mine that I sometimes went to. Jonathan: Umm, but it was just like, dancing. Nothing really else happened there. L.M.: Yeah, it's just dancing. No, was just dancing. They had, you know, recorded music and there was dancing. Jonathan: Oh. Did you go to them? L.M.: Did I go to, did I go dancing there? Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. What's it like? “Organized dancing”, or is it like, you know, you just shake around, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M.: Yeah, let's just kind of shake around dancing. That's right. Jonathan: OK. And uh, what did the student body or yourself think about the Vietnam War? L.M.: Well, I wasn't. I wasn't in favor of it, obviously. It was. It was certainly disturbing at the time. There was a whole lot of as, as with any war, there's a whole lot of people being killed unnecessarily. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. But. Do you think there's like a, the- L.M.: There wasn't. There wasn't much discussion of it at, you know, in, you know, certainly among students. Jonathan: But did you think like the general consensus that most people, weren't, didn't really like it. They were kind of against it? (5:53) L.M.: Yeah, I think most people probably were. I mean, and certainly Canada, you know we we ended up with a lot of draft Dodgers from the, from the war. I think I mentioned that before I was. Certainly, you know, aware of that that there were young men coming up here because they didn't believe in the war. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm, did you personally see, meet any draft dodgers? L.M.: No, not that I can recall. Jonathan: All right. Next it's about rock'n'roll. I know you didn't listen to it a lot. But did you or maybe your parents think of, like, have any opinions about rock'n'roll? Do you see as like “devil music”? L.M.: No, I mean, I certainly it was totally, it was totally acceptable music for young people at the time, I didn't have anything against it. It just wasn't something I listened to a lot personally. Jonathan: OK. But and your. Did your parents have any opinions on it? (6:59) L.M.: No, I don't think so. Jonathan: Hmm, OK. Alright and- L.M.: I mean I- Jonathan: Yeah. L.M.: -Yeah. Jonathan: OK. L.M.: I mean the, I certainly, I certainly heard that. I mean I heard The Beatles, I heard the stones, I heard I. You know, if, if kids were having a party, that's the kind of that's the kind of music that we'd put on, it's actually. Jonathan: Ah. So it was still popular. L.M.: Certainly that now I'm going now. You know, I'm going back to UBC days. I think. I think maybe part of the difference at, with U of O is that I was a graduate student, you know, and I hung out with Med students and, and they were all pretty serious. You know, they had to get through Med school and so. Jonathan: Yeah, bachelor students are, yeah. A lot more relaxed. L.M.: Yeah. Well, exactly. I mean, they're younger and they're, you know, they're this is there for a lot of them. That's kind of their their, their chance to get away from home and so but. Jonathan: Have some fun, yeah. OK. And of course, 1970s. A lot of the, there was a lot of drugs being taken then. To what extent were drugs available or used on campus? (8:02) L.M.: I don't really know because I wasn't using them personally. You know, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were available. They're available everywhere, have been for years. Always have been, always will be. Jonathan: They are, that's true. But, hmm, did you maybe know a lot of drug users, like people who smoked marijuana? L.M.: No. Jonathan: No? L.M.: I mean, yeah, well, that's, yeah. No, I certainly did. I certainly did know. Know some, I think, because I I knew a fellow who was, you know, who'd gone to high school in Ottawa. So he. Yeah, yeah, I know, he and his friends. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, it was definitely around. I was aware of. Of people who were using it. Jonathan: But do you also think it was common too? (9:04) L.M.: Oh yeah, sure, it was common. Jonathan: OK. And last thing about drugs. Uh, do you think a lot of students used hallucinogenics? Or psychedelic drugs too. L.M.: Yeah, I have no idea. I certainly I don't think. I don't think my friends were particular. I mean, the people I knew weren't into that, but. Again, I'm sure. They were out there. I know they were out there so. Jonathan: But it wasn't that common that you, you knew anyone who used it? L.M.: Yeah, it certainly wasn't terribly common among medical students. Jonathan: Oh yeah, would medical students know like a lot more about the drugs? L.M.: Oh, they probably knew somewhat more, but I don't. I not necessarily cause because I don't think any of them were. They probably knew enough not to use them. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. And that ends the first section about pop culture. Next is about the feminism, OK, so historians say they talk about the 2nd wave feminism as part of a, the general counterculture movement in the 1970s. It says that- (9:57) L.M.: How did that be second wave? When was the first wave? Did they talk about when the 1st? Jonathan: It was in. I think that was the early 1900s, when women like first got the right to vote. L.M.: Oh, OK. All right. So the, so second wave is what's going along in the 70s, OK? Jonathan: Yeah. So it says in the 1970s, woman worked to breakdown gender barriers and such. Does this? Well, does this description you know align with your experience in the University of Ottawa? L.M.: Oh yeah, sure. Jonathan: Yeah? Is there any like, specific thing that you can describe? L.M.: Well, I'm thinking that you know, I mean as I said, I ended up knowing a lot of medical students, my roommates were medical students. There were probably more women and well, and then and then I had one for a while one who was a law student too, so certainly there were more women. Entering the professions in that era than had been seen previously. (10:53) Jonathan: Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. OK. L.M.: There were more. There were more women in university and there were more women. There were definitely more women in the in the professions, particularly law, and medicine. I, I certainly saw more. Yeah, there were a lot more women going into those fields. I think it took a while for them to go, you know. And now you're seeing more in engineering too, that, that that was that that was longer, that took longer coming. But as I say in my in my era. There were, I think it was really the the beginning of, you know, seeing a lot of women in medicine and law. Jonathan: OK, so medicine and law you said we're like for you was the big, like a lot of woman took it up. I don't really describe that. Yeah. OK, uh, what did feminism like? Mean to you back then? Or maybe you'd- (11:55) L.M.: Yeah, as I think I- Jonathan: Yeah, I think you answered this before. L.M.: That yeah, I mean, because my own mother was a university professor like she was like way ahead of the curve. Right. So for me, having a, but I I certainly know as a child, I was the only, you know, I was the only woman. Er the only woman, the only person in my elementary school whose mother was. Was working I think, and you know, and that was probably pretty much the same through, through high school, although things might have started to change by then there were maybe some women, you know, working because their kids were in school. But but it was certainly less common, but to me. That was, you know, I, I always expected that I'd go to university and that I'd work because that was, you know, with having my mother as a role model that's just what I figured I'd do. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. So I guess would you call your, your mother, a feminist role model? (13:16) L.M.: She certainly wouldn't call herself that. You know, as many as the first. The women who were successful professionally tended to poo-poo the feminist movement because, you know, they'd made their own way. So they really couldn't understand what anybody else's problem was. But that said, I mean I don't agree with my mother on that. I, I think there and we're still seeing issues, you know, in terms of how women are treated in the workplace, I was very fortunate. I, you know, I didn't encounter any issues myself. Well, yeah, there there's, there's certainly, I, I would say there's some certainly some aspects of the old boys network and and you know men looking after themselves and it was harder for women to make their way, generally I think. Jonathan: Hmm, that's interesting. But you're saying your mother, you know, didn't really like the feminism movement? (14:18) L.M.: No, because she didn't. For, for her it was a non-issue, you know. You just get out there and you do it, you do what you want to do and that's that. And she, I mean. And she worked obviously in that era she was working in a very male environment but she was successful. So I think she, she wasn't overly sympathetic. She just. Jonathan: Yeah, that's. That is pretty interesting. I didn't really, you know I think. She's in the male dominated place, she should be, yeah, you know. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, I think it maybe it was that era that you just kind of accepted it, you know, I mean, you didn't really, I don't know. (15:01) Jonathan: Yeah, I guess that was true. You did just accept things. Is just how it is. L.M.: Yeah, yeah. Jonathan: OK. And then of course, you already said about the law and medical, but you know in U Ottawa the programs and departments were there places where women were like. Not accepted. You know, maybe like engineering. L.M.: Well, yeah, that's probably true- Jonathan: The big one? L.M.: -I think that I think, yeah, I don't think I knew any women in engineering so. Yeah, I think that's possible, but I wasn't really. I didn't. I wasn't really close to anybody in engineering review though either. So yeah, it's hard to say. Jonathan: But was there? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, maybe you knew any. Maybe you also knew any clubs or like, oh no, we don't like women in this club. L.M.: Yeah, I wasn't really. Jonathan: Into clubs? L.M.: I wasn't really into clubs, so yeah. (16:04) Jonathan: OK. And the next part, is about, uh, the general counterculture, which is basically all, you know, you don't really agree with the values your parents. You already said, uh, you know, you had a little bit of conflict with your mother over feminism? L.M.: Um, I, I. No, I wasn't conflicted with her. I, you know- Jonathan: But you just disagreed. L.M.: -I was inclined to agree with her. Pardon? Jonathan: Yeah. So you just disagreed? Never, no, really. Conflict. L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think at the time, I mean I, I would have, I would have disagreed later in life. I think at the time I just kind of accepted, um, you know, I thought she probably knew what she was talking about, and I didn't. I didn't expect to encounter any issues personally. And then I really never did so, but- Jonathan: So at the time you, you know, didn't really think about, you, you mostly agreed? (17:02) L.M.: Yeah, at that time, I didn't. Yeah, I at the time, I just assumed I was going to, you know, finish my degree and get a job and that that, that a Masters degree might might lead to an interesting job. And, and I always did have interesting jobs, whether the Masters degree contributed to I have no idea. Suddenly, the being bilingual did, being bilingual in Ottawa, was the big thing? Jonathan: Well, that's a big thing. Yeah, I'd like to think your Masters degree helps because I'm looking to get one after this. L.M.: Are you well good for you. What's your? What's your? Your field is history. Jonathan: Yeah, it's history. L.M.: Yeah, well, good for you. Jonathan: Well, thank you. L.M.: Yeah, no, I would encourage you to do that. Jonathan: I like to. I like to think that it was a big a big help. L.M.: Yeah, well, you know, I I do believe that that degrees in well in, in, the, the in history or you know English or social sciences that that that they're all I think they're all very useful because at the end of the day. (17:56) Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: At the end of the day, you need to be able to understand people. Whatever field you're in. So, and that's those studies help with that. Jonathan: Yeah, honestly, I just think a bachelor is one is one of those things that people don't like. So you have to have a masters, right? L.M.: Well, that's what. That's what I thought at the time too. And and you know, maybe I was right. As I say, I certainly, I certainly always ended up with interesting jobs. So. Jonathan: Ohh well I hope, I hope you are still right. L.M.: Yeah, for your sake, I hope I'm right too, I'm sure. Well, I'm sure if you're if you're in first year and you're props already asking you to do this kind of this kind of work, which you said usually only third and fourth year students do, that's that's a good sign. Jonathan: I hope it is, yeah. OK. And uh next part about these questions, OK, so uh, do you think that people maybe not yourself, but like people you knew maybe clashed in values with their parents? (19:07) L.M.: Yeah, I think I think to to some degree yeah. I mean I think that's, that's probably fairly normal with every generation though I would say. Jonathan: Yeah, that's true. L.M.: But because I mean, things do change and evolve and and, and it it may have been particularly true in the 70s. I mean, because of the feminist movement and because, you know, women were, had felt that they had more control of their bodies. They felt that they had, more, they were more likely to you know, to to get good jobs that they could do what they wanted. I mean, I think that was the thing. About feminism was that it started, you know that the, the gender roles were starting to break down. Which was a good. That, that, that. I think was the start of that. Jonathan: OK. But with that, do you know any, maybe, other women who were, like activists, may they participated in marches or protests and such? (20:22) L.M.: No, not particularly. Jonathan: Hmm. Were these sort of things rare in Ottawa? L.M.: I don't remember any, to be honest. You know, it's funny. I can remember things going on in Vancouver, but I don't remember, I don't remember Ottawa and, as I say, maybe I just hung out with people who were too studious, who were either. Jonathan: No time for activism. (21:02) L.M.: That's right. But yeah, I don't really remember. And it's it's weird because you'd think in Ottawa there would be but. But I don't know. Jonathan: Maybe they're all in, like a far off place. Not not near the university. Now that is interesting. L.M.: Well, maybe there are just so many Main Street because it's such a government town that it's government and engineering. I mean, so maybe maybe, the maybe the folks there were just more straight-laced. They they were part of, you know, they were at the power centre, so they didn't have to protest. Jonathan: Yeah, they they already did all the things. Yeah. Umm, well, usually just like out of town. People come to Ottawa. It's like, oh, you know, do some marches and protests. L.M.: Yeah, it certainly happens now, doesn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, it's pretty, it seems pretty common these days ugh. (21:57) L.M.: Yeah. But I don't remember that kind of thing happening in. Jonathan: Yeah. OK. But OK, looking back during that time, what aspect of Canadian society do you think was the most, you know or broken or just something that had to be dixed. I think you said something about, was it Western alienation? L.M.: Yeah, there was. Well, there was, there was Western alienation and there was the also the the focus on Quebec and trying to get Quebec to stay within Canada. That was certainly a big issue at the time. Jonathan: And it overshadowed like other issues that you thought were also very important. L.M.: Yeah, I think so. Jonathan: Yeah, were, any like specific maybe Western issues that you thought just was never addressed? L.M.: No, I think it was. It was just more feeling. You know, I don't know that there was anything specific I I think. There was a, you know, financial to some degree, I think there was a sense that that, that a lot of a lot of federal money went into Quebec to try to appease Quebec? And that the. (22:58) Jonathan: It was more feeling like you're just like second rate. OK. And similar to that, what do you think was the biggest forms of injustice during that time? I guess you can probably still answer Western alienation. L.M.: Yeah, and and also I mean, I do think even though as I say, my my mother didn't think it was an issue. I do think it was. There were still challenges with women in the workforce. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, you don't have anything more to say about that? (24:04) L.M.: Quebec, as I said, and and you know, Quebec separatism because I think I think most well, certainly the people I knew whether in BC or in Ontario did not want to see Quebec separate because of the feeling that it would be very disrupt, it would be very disruptive to the entire country. Jonathan: Yeah, definitely would’ve been. L.M.: So that as I say, that was probably. You know in Canada that was probably one of the the key issues at the time. Jonathan: The issues of the time, well, I guess all that federal money did pay off, Quebec voted to stay in, yeah. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. They're still with us. Jonathan: And last question about this, did you think the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to the issues at the time? L.M.: I yeah, I think I did. Because I was a, I was a, you know, I was a student liberal at the time. And so I believed that the, the Liberal government was, you know, doing its best to address things. And also in the day I think politics were far more respectful. I mean, I remember having, I think I mentioned I was a teaching assistant and I remember one of my students worked on the Hill and worked for a, a Conservative MP, you know, and was talking about the, the genuine respect behind the scenes that you know that basically that all MP's had for one another because you know which, which is not, I don't think you see that to the same degree today, which is very distressing both in Canada and the US, well around the world. We seem to be getting more polarized. (25:01) Jonathan: That that is true, yeah. (26:04) L.M.: It is very disturbing. But you know at the time, I think at the time, I think government probably worked better than it does now. You know, I think we had a cabinet system that worked reasonably well, and, so yeah, at the time, I think I thought things were being reasonably well handled. Jonathan: OK, uh, the Prime Minister at times, that was Pierre Trudeau, right? L.M.: Right. Jonathan: Yeah, Pierre Trudeau, OK. So you thought it was, good. L.M.: I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I had a fair amount of respect for him. And I thought he was trying to do some, Some decent things. Jonathan: And even like government in general, the politics in general that they were better, better then than now? L.M.: The politics in general were much better than they are now, yes. I think, Trudeau senior was smarter than his son and cabinet government was more- (26:58) Jonathan: Competent? L.M.: -was more effective than. Yeah, it was. Yeah. Because over time there's just been more and more power concentrated in the, in the Prime Minister's office. Jonathan: OK. And now we're at the last part in 30 minutes. We've actually I think we might have spent more time talking the last time. L.M.: Yeah, we probably did, but- Jonathan: Yeah. Well, that's it. That's good, longer, longer, Interview is better for me. OK, OK. So the last part, historians again they say that the introduction of the birth control pill, the legalization of abortion and the, the free love Movement changed gender relations and dating in the 1970s. Do you agree with? L.M.: Yes. (28:05) Jonathan: Yes? Do you have anything more to add about that, like personal insight? L.M.: Well, no. Yeah, not personal insight necessarily, but just I think that it made. Well, for one thing, I mean it, it's part of what made it possible for women to be more involved in the in the workforce because they had, they had control over if or when they had kids. Because that was certainly, you know, in the beginning that was one of the, the challenges or the things that was was thrown up at women in terms of hiring women. You know, why would you do that? Because, you know, they'll just go off and have a family because that's what women were always supposed to do in the past. So, I think that, I think that did make a difference. Jonathan: OK. (29:02) L.M.: And, it probably also made a difference, I don't know whether this is true or not, I'm thinking that that women. And I never felt this, but, and I don't know whether some women felt that it, you know, they were more, it was easier to have kind of multiple relationships or, or people were more relaxed in terms of, you know, how soon, or whether they had sex in a in a relationship? Jonathan: No. Hmm. L.M.: I think there were that that would have that made a difference to women. Jonathan: OK. And about, you know, dating and stuff was what, a dating look like back then, eh? L.M.: What did dating look like? Jonathan: Yeah, it was, you know, just the same as now, you know? Yeah. You take your date, you go to dinner. L.M.: Well, I mean, I don't know, because I honestly, I don't know. I don't know anything about what dating looks like now. It looks like everybody just stares at their phones all the time. (29:57) Jonathan: Well, yeah. You, you do, you do that a lot, but you also, you know, go to restaurants, go to concerts, go to the yeah. L.M.: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good without your phone. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, without out phones, you gotta physically interact too. L.M.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that's still going on because yeah, that I mean, that's basically what I, certainly, I mean I remember, you know, going down to Quebec City to visit friends, I had friends who'd come out from Vancouver, and I was at you of all friends at Laval and, and, and yeah, and my boyfriend moved in. He was in Ottawa for, for a couple of years and then he moved to Montreal. He interned down there, so I went back and forth to so. But yeah, it was more, you know, going out with friends or just going out together, going to restaurant, maybe going to the theatre. Jonathan: Did you actually, did you maybe have like long phone calls or something with them? Maybe you know if you're far away. (31:03) L.M.: Yeah, we sometimes had long phone calls and we used to go. We used to go get together. We used to go hiking. I remember going, you know, with him and with other friends going, going on canoe trips in the summer that one of my friends organized. Jonathan: Yeah. That's too outdoors for me. L.M.: Yeah, that's way too outdoorsy for this survey, isn't it? Jonathan: Yeah, well. Probably depends on the person. I'm a, I'm a city person, so uh, I don't like going. L.M.: Yeah. So that doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably happening more and more and more, but. Jonathan: A lot more people live in cities. L.M.: But no, I enjoyed. Yeah, I enjoy the outdoors. I still do, not as. Anyway, yeah, because I used to go cross country skiing and I used to go downhill skiing too. When I was U of O, I was probably still doing more downhill, and then I got more into cross country. But yeah, no, I, I enjoy the outdoors. So yeah, I went hiking and. Jonathan: There’s skiing in Ottawa? (32:06) L.M.: Well, there's camp fortune. I don't know whether Camp Fortune still exists. I mean, it's not. Much of A ski. Can't forget it. Not much of a, you know for sure. I think it was called Camp Fortune. Yeah. Jonathan: It's still there. Ohh it's north of Gatineau. L.M.: Was up in the Gatineau yeah. Jonathan: But still close to Ottawa. L.M.: Yeah, that's right, because, that was the other thing. There was a fair amount of, you know, you know I had some friends who used to go over to, to Quebec to go drinking, you know, they'd go over to the Chaudiere(??). Was a, was a well known hang out. Jonathan: Because the legal age was lower? L.M.: A bit like. The, the hours were longer. Jonathan: Oh. Ah, you could drink more. L.M.: Yeah, that's right. Jonathan: I've never went drinking, so I wouldn't know about any of the sort of stuff. Do you think there's any, like maybe special things in the 1970s. Like something that just never happens again about dating or, you know, social life-ing? (32:55) L.M.: No, I mean, I think as I say, I think it was the beginning of a shift probably in terms of, of, of, of women feeling freer than they had in the past and you know able. Having more control of their lives. But that that has continued, like although there's now, there's folks in the states we may not, there's probably some nutbars here too, who want to close that down. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. L.M.: You know, some of the crazy Republicans who were trying to take control, take women's control away and ban abortion and ban birth control, which is that's I I, find that unbelievable that that people could be trying to take a step backwards at this point, but. Jonathan: Yeah, it's insane. It's been like, what, 50 years? (34:07) L.M.: Yeah. Well, I think they just it. I think it is some just really primarily just really conservative men who are just feeling threatened by everything they're threatened by, they're threatened by women, they're threatened by people of different races. I I don't know what their problem is, but they're they're. Jonathan: Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think we dwelled a bit too much on that. Yeah, it's about the 1970s, not, not today. L.M.: Yeah. OK. Sorry. Yeah, no. But I think that was the beginning. I I don't, I wouldn't say that it's something that, you know that happened then that we never haven't seen again. But I think there were some significant shifts that happened then that are still carrying on in terms of. In terms of gender roles. Jonathan: OK, so there was a big social shift during that. (35:07) L.M.: Time, though I think there. Yeah, I think that was the beginning of a significant shift. Jonathan: But at the same time, it didn't really affect like what you'd actually do for, you know, fun and stuff. L.M.: No, I mean, I don't think my interests have shifted particularly you know, I mean I grew up interested in arts and theatre and and that, that, that still stuff today, you know, it was stuff I did then it was stuff I did before then, it's stuff I've done since then, you know, I'm, I'm still the the same person and I just carry on with my own interests. Jonathan: OK. Yeah, well, OK. And the final, final, final part. Uh, it's the stuff about sexual harassment and. OK, many universities today have been forced to, you know, heavily police sexual harassment. To what extent did the university maybe monitor social events or mixers back then because of sexual harassment? L.M.: I don't think at all. (36:14) Jonathan: Just not at all? L.M.: I don't think so. Jonathan: Was there any like, do you think there's, like a pamphlet like, oh, don’t, don't rape? Sorry. L.M.: I well. Yeah, I don't think that. I don't think that kind of thing was really coming to light at that point. I think that's been far more, recent that there are those. I mean, I think there were issues then, but I don't think I mean obviously based on what we know now, there's been a whole lot of bad behavior going on for a long time and it would have been going on then too, but it wasn't, it wasn't coming to light then. That's something that's happened more recently. Jonathan: But do you think the university viewed it as a problem or it's like, oh, this is just personal stuff? (37:05) L.M.: Yeah, I think they viewed it, I don't think they did view it as a problem, but I don't think it was, really on the radar I. Well, I shouldn't say that. I mean, obviously you know, if if, if a rape happened that people were worried about it, but. Jonathan: OK. OK. L.M.: But I don't. It's yeah. Jonathan: But the university didn't go out of its way to try to stop it. L.M.: No, there there was nothing proactive at the time with respect to- Jonathan: OK. L.M.: -to to rape. To to those issues that's I guess that's how I'd have. To put it. Jonathan: Alright. And oh, actually miss something for the final thing, the final thing is about sexuality and harassment. Sorry. And so the last two questions. Because the specific uh, the project is, there's a lot of interest in the free love stuff. So what was the perception of premarital sex? Do you think it was you know, accepted, or is it not accepted? Or- (37:49) L.M.: Yeah, it was that that I'd. Say that was a a difference between like my parents generation and my generation is that that premarital sex from from in my generation like in the 70s, that was, that was pretty much accepted and I don't think it was in previous generations. And I I think, yeah, I think it was accepted in the 70s because of the availability of birth control. Jonathan: OK. Do you think? But do you think maybe it was even encouraged, like people like, because of birth control, let's have a lot of sex? L.M.: I think it was probably far, it was more, there were more people engaging in in sexual activity than when than in my parents' generation, probably, yeah. (38:58) Jonathan: OK. And with your parents, did your parents or like other people's parents, worry about that sort of things, like, oh, “don't have premarital sex.” They ever maybe tell you or tell you? L.M.: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that would have been as I, I mean I never discussed sex with my parents. We never had that conversation- Jonathan: Ah yeah. L.M.: -but I do remember, you know there at at some point it it came up because I mean, as I said, I used to go camping with my boyfriend. And stuff and so. So I think my, you know, my parents were probably worried about what might be going on and, you know. If that concerned them, they were right to be worried, but we never talked about it and and, you know- Jonathan: So you never knew if they were like- (39:57) L.M.: -I was using birth control, so I it was, you know, to me that that seemed to be a natural thing to be doing at that age. For my parents, it probably wouldn't have been and they would, would have preferred that my behavior emulated theirs, but it was a different era. So. Jonathan: Hmm, that yeah, well that's the same now you know. My parents, they won't me to be more like them, yeah. L.M.: Sure. Yeah, I think that's I think I think that's the expectation of parents because you know that's what they know, and so it's they, they're. People always seem to find change difficult. Jonathan: Yeah, that is true. Well, that's actually all the questions. Alright, alright, perfect. L.M.: All right. Well, I hope this has worked this time and uh- Jonathan: Yeah, I really hope to. Ugh. L.M.: -Yeah. Yeah, sorry you got stuck with a, with a subject who's not not, not, outside of the norm of what the project's looking for. Jonathan: Well, to be fair, I think I think you're a lot closer than some of the other people because, apparently a lot of other students had trouble even contacting the, the first person they were given. (41:04) L.M.: Oh, is that right? Jonathan: Yeah. And apparently because there was so much problems that the teacher just like, oh, “do you know anyone who went to school in the 1970s?” Yes, anyone. Basically it's like OK, you ask your own parents if they if they went to like university then so I think you are a lot closer to what they expected. L.M.: You know how? Yeah. Do you know how they they came up with the list? Like how did they, how did they. Jonathan: The list of people? L.M.: Yeah, the list of the list of contacts that that you were working with. Jonathan: I have no idea. I just know the the teacher like you know that he contacted a lot of people. How how did how do you reach you? L.M.: Well, interestingly in my case I wasn't reached directly, but but in the the the reaching there was a a, a friend of mine who was the only other anglophone in the program that I was in at U of O and the masters program and and, for some reason, he was on the list and and then he forwarded it to me saying, you know, in case I was interested, he figured I'd probably received it too, since he received it, but I hadn't. And so that's why I was curious because I thought, well, I have given money to U of O, I'm still on, you know, still get bumped from U of O. (41:57) Jonathan: Ohh. L.M.: But I didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't on their their list, so I was curious as to how they managed to. Because I mean, it shouldn't be. Jonathan: All right. I think with you specifically is that uh, you graduated, uh, 1976, right? L.M.: Correct. Jonathan: They like initially if I remember very correctly they wanted the people who graduated in 1974. (42:58) L.M.: Right, yeah. Jonathan: That's a bit weird, and yeah, you were just, like, just off from the list. L.M.: That's right. I think we were kind of at the end of the wave. I mean, I think in many ways a lot of the really exciting stuff was happening in the late 60s. And so that's when that's when these, you know, a lot of these ideas were more, new if you like. That's, yeah. So we were, we were kind of at the end of. Jonathan: OK, remember, I think he said he just he went to yearbooks and like the university database or something and just contacted people's emails just gave like everyone an e-mail and see who responded. L.M.: OK. Yeah. Yeah, because that would be the challenge. I mean, you have the list of who graduated, but you have no idea where they are now, so. But but I still don't understand why I wouldn't have been contacted because, well, maybe it's as you say, it's just mind you, my, my friend who was we were there at the same time we were there for the same. We were both there from 74 to 76. We were there at the same two years, so I'm not quite sure why they would have found him and not me. Jonathan: Yeah, I think it really is. Maybe he just he just missed you. Yeah, you know he. Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's how it is. (44:03) L.M.: Well, anyway, well, I I. Like, I hope that you're you and your friends. How many people have you had to interview? Jonathan: Uh, no, just you. There was. I had another person, but he said he was too busy to work with. L.M.: OK. Jonathan: Yeah. Well, honestly, I think I'm very lucky that you responded, yeah. L.M.: Well, it It probably comes from my my teaching assistant experience. I have sympathy for students. Jonathan: Thank you. L.M.: You're welcome, and I wish you the best of luck with your studies. Jonathan: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for for doing this again. L.M.: You're welcome. (45:02) Jonathan: Yeah. Have a great day. L.M.: You too. Bye now. Jonathan: Yeah. Thank you. Bye. (45:05) Transcription Translation Jonathan : Euh, bonjour ? (00:00:19) L.M. : Bonjour ? Jonathan : Bonjour, L. C'est bien L.? L.M. : Oui. Est-ce que vous m'entendez ? Jonathan : Oui, je vous entends. L.M. : D'accord, c'est bien. Jonathan : OK. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. Je n'arrive pas à y croire. La dernière fois, on n'a rien enregistré. Euh. L.M. : Oui, c'est dommage. Mais nous allons réessayer. Jonathan : Oui, nous allons réessayer. Merci. Merci beaucoup pour cela, L.M. : De rien. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Nous sommes le 24 octobre. Commençons l'interview. Je vais passer en revue toutes les questions dans l'ordre cette fois-ci. D'ACCORD. La première question porte sur la culture populaire de l'époque : "Il y avait moins d'électronique dans la société canadienne des années 1970. Comment occupiez-vous votre temps libre ?", ou que faisiez-vous pour vous amuser ? L.M. : J'allais nager à la piscine de l'Université d'Ottawa. J'allais patiner sur le canal. J'allais au Centre national d'art et à la Galerie nationale et j'allais au restaurant ou au pub avec des amis. (1:19) Jonathan : OK et, euh, est-ce que ces restaurants, ces pubs étaient les endroits les plus populaires ? L.M. : Euh, non. J'avais l'habitude d'aller dans un bon restaurant indien avec mon petit ami qui se trouvait sur Nam. C'était près de l'université et il y avait une crêperie sur la rue Rideau et Nate's Delicatessen. Oui, c'était bien. Mais oui, je suppose qu'ils étaient assez populaires. Je ne sais pas. (01:52) Jonathan : Mais connaissiez-vous des endroits super populaires ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? D'accord, alors. Hmm. Eh bien, oui, c'est ça, je suppose. Quoi qu'il en soit, vous écoutez... L.M. : C'est vrai, je suis. Je ne le suis pas vraiment. Je n'entre pas vraiment dans le moule de ce que ce projet essaie de faire, je pense en tout cas. Jonathan : Oui, c'est ça. L'étudiant super moyen, je suppose. Vous écoutez beaucoup de musique pendant ce temps, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Oui, j'écoute surtout de la musique folk. Jonathan : Oui, bonjour. Folk et classique, avez-vous dit la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, le folk et le classique. Mais j'écoute, vous savez, j'écoute Joan Baez. C'est ce qu'elle aurait été. Elle était populaire à l'époque parce qu'elle était certainement une activiste politique. Jonathan : Oh, mais... (3:03) L.M. : Voilà. Jonathan : En ce qui concerne la musique, avez-vous assisté à des concerts de musique en direct ? L.M. : Eh bien, comme je l'ai dit, oui, un peu de classique au centre des arts. J'ai assisté à quelques spectacles à Montréal, je suis allé à Montréal et j'ai entendu Gilles Vigneault et Michel Fugain. Au Centre d'art de Montréal. Jonathan : Oui, les Arts à Montréal. Bon sang. Honnêtement, je ne connais aucun de ces noms. L.M. : Ce n'est pas surprenant. Ils sont francophones, d'une part, donc leur culture ne vous est probablement pas familière, et ils datent des années 70. Jonathan : Oui, depuis longtemps. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Alors vous voulez m'entendre dire des choses comme, oh, oui, je suis allé voir les Rolling Stones et le Grateful Dead et... Jonathan : Eh bien, ce serait beaucoup plus pratique si vous le faisiez. L.M. : Il y aurait des cases à cocher. (4:00) Jonathan : Oui, et c'est beaucoup plus facile de tout écrire. Ohh. Ok, donc la partie suivante "nous utilisons le terme culture de la fête pour décrire certaines universités". Comment décririez-vous la "culture du parti" à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Eh bien, je n'étais pas particulièrement au courant. Je ne sais pas si c'était dans le coin, il y avait des soirées dansantes la première année où j'étais en résidence et il y avait souvent des soirées dans la résidence à côté de la mienne où j'allais parfois. Jonathan : Umm, mais c'était juste pour danser. Il ne s'est rien passé d'autre. L.M. : Oui, c'est juste de la danse. Non, c'était juste de la danse. Ils avaient, vous savez, de la musique enregistrée et il y avait de la danse. Jonathan : Oh. Tu es allé les voir ? L.M. : Est-ce que je suis allé, est-ce que je suis allé danser là-bas ? Oui. Jonathan : Oui. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? "C'est de la danse organisée, ou c'est comme, tu sais, tu te secoues, yada, yada. (5:00) L.M. : Oui, secouons-nous en dansant. C'est ça. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et euh, que pensait le corps étudiant ou vous-même de la guerre du Vietnam ? L.M. : Eh bien, je ne l'étais pas. Je n'étais pas pour, évidemment. C'est vrai. C'était certainement troublant à l'époque. Comme dans toute guerre, il y avait beaucoup de gens qui étaient tués inutilement. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm. Mais. Est-ce que tu penses qu'il y a une, la... L.M. : Non. Il n'y a pas eu beaucoup de discussions à ce sujet, vous savez, dans, vous savez, certainement parmi les étudiants. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que le consensus général était que la plupart des gens, n'étaient pas, n'aimaient pas vraiment ça. Ils étaient plutôt contre ? (5:53) L.M. : Oui, je pense que la plupart des gens l'étaient. Je veux dire, et certainement le Canada, vous savez, nous nous sommes retrouvés avec beaucoup de Dodgers de la guerre. Je crois que je l'ai déjà mentionné. J'étais certainement conscient qu'il y avait des jeunes hommes qui venaient ici parce qu'ils ne croyaient pas à la guerre. Jonathan : Oui. Hmm, avez-vous personnellement vu, rencontré des réfractaires ? L.M. : Non, pas que je me souvienne. Jonathan : Très bien. Le prochain sujet est le rock'n'roll. Je sais que vous n'en écoutiez pas beaucoup. Mais est-ce que vous, ou peut-être vos parents, avez des opinions sur le rock'n'roll ? Est-ce que vous le considérez comme de la " musique du diable " ? L.M. : Non, je veux dire que c'était certainement une musique tout à fait acceptable pour les jeunes de l'époque, je n'avais rien contre. C'est juste que ce n'était pas quelque chose que j'écoutais beaucoup personnellement. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais et vos. Est-ce que vos parents avaient un avis sur la question ? (6:59) L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Hmm, OK. D'accord et... L.M. : Je veux dire que je... Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : -Oui. Jonathan : OK. L.M. : Je veux dire, j'ai certainement, j'ai certainement entendu ça. Je veux dire que j'ai entendu les Beatles, j'ai entendu les Stone, j'ai entendu I. Vous savez, si, si des enfants faisaient une fête, c'est le genre de musique qu'on mettrait, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Ah. C'était donc encore populaire. L.M. : Certainement que maintenant, j'y vais. Vous savez, je reviens à l'époque de l'UBC. Je pense que. Je pense qu'une partie de la différence avec l'Université de l'Ontario est que j'étais un étudiant diplômé, vous savez, et je traînais avec des étudiants en médecine et, et ils étaient tous assez sérieux. Vous savez, ils devaient passer par l'école de médecine et ainsi de suite. Jonathan : Oui, les étudiants en licence sont, oui. Beaucoup plus détendus. L.M. : Oui. Tout à fait. Je veux dire, ils sont plus jeunes et ils sont, vous savez, ils sont là pour beaucoup d'entre eux. C'est un peu leur chance, leur chance de s'éloigner de la maison, etc. Jonathan : Amusez-vous bien, oui. D'ACCORD. Et bien sûr, les années 1970. Il y avait beaucoup de drogues à l'époque. Dans quelle mesure les drogues étaient-elles disponibles ou consommées sur le campus ? (8:02) L.M. : Je ne sais pas vraiment parce que je ne les utilisais pas personnellement. Vous savez, je suis sûre qu'il y en avait. Je suis sûr qu'ils étaient disponibles. Ils sont disponibles partout, depuis des années. Ils l'ont toujours été et le seront toujours. Jonathan : C'est vrai. Mais, hmm, est-ce que tu as connu beaucoup de toxicomanes, comme des gens qui fumaient de la marijuana ? L.M. : Non. Jonathan : Non ? L.M. : Je veux dire, oui, eh bien, c'est, oui. Non, c'est certain. Je connaissais certainement. J'en connaissais certains, je pense, parce que je connaissais un gars qui était, vous savez, qui était allé à l'école secondaire à Ottawa. Alors il... Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Oui, oui, je sais, lui et ses amis. Je dirais donc que, oui, c'était bel et bien présent. J'étais au courant. Des gens qui l'utilisaient. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous aussi que c'était courant ? (9:04) L.M. : Oui, bien sûr, c'était courant. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Dernière chose à propos des drogues. Pensez-vous que beaucoup d'étudiants ont consommé des hallucinogènes ? Ou des drogues psychédéliques aussi. L.M. : Oui, je n'en ai aucune idée. En tout cas, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que mes amis étaient particuliers. Je veux dire, les gens que je connaissais n'étaient pas intéressés, mais... Encore une fois, j'en suis sûre. Ils étaient là. Je sais qu'ils étaient là. Jonathan : Mais ce n'était pas si courant que ça, vous connaissiez quelqu'un qui l'utilisait ? L.M. : Oui, ce n'était certainement pas très courant parmi les étudiants en médecine. Jonathan : Oh oui, les étudiants en médecine en sauraient-ils beaucoup plus sur les médicaments ? L.M. : Oh, ils en savaient probablement un peu plus, mais pas moi. Je n'en suis pas nécessairement la cause parce que je ne pense pas qu'aucun d'entre eux l'était. Ils en savaient probablement assez pour ne pas les utiliser. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. C'est ainsi que se termine la première partie sur la culture pop. Les historiens parlent du féminisme de la deuxième vague comme faisant partie du mouvement général de la contre-culture dans les années 1970. Il est dit que... (9:57) L.M. : En quoi cela a-t-il été la deuxième vague ? Quand a eu lieu la première vague ? Ont-ils parlé de la première vague ? Jonathan : C'était au. Je pense que c'était au début des années 1900, lorsque les femmes ont obtenu le droit de vote. L.M. : Oh, d'accord. D'accord. La deuxième vague, c'est ce qui se passe dans les années 70, d'accord ? Jonathan : Oui. Il est dit que dans les années 1970, les femmes se sont efforcées de faire tomber les barrières entre les sexes. Est-ce que c'est le cas ? Cette description correspond-elle à votre expérience à l'Université d'Ottawa ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Jonathan : Oui ? Y a-t-il une chose spécifique que vous pouvez décrire ? L.M. : Eh bien, je pense que, comme je l'ai dit, j'ai fini par connaître beaucoup d'étudiants en médecine, mes colocataires étaient des étudiants en médecine. Il y avait probablement plus de femmes, et puis j'en ai eu une pendant un certain temps qui était aussi étudiante en droit, donc il y avait certainement plus de femmes. Il y avait donc certainement plus de femmes que par le passé qui accédaient aux professions libérales à cette époque. (10:53) Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, voilà. Oui, c'est ça. OK. L.M. : Il y en avait plus. Il y avait plus de femmes à l'université et plus de femmes. Il y avait certainement plus de femmes dans les professions libérales, en particulier en droit et en médecine. J'en ai certainement vu plus. Oui, il y avait beaucoup plus de femmes dans ces domaines. Je pense qu'il a fallu un certain temps pour qu'elles y aillent, vous savez. Et maintenant, on en voit plus dans l'ingénierie aussi, c'était plus long, c'était plus long à venir. Mais comme je l'ai dit à mon époque. Il y avait, je pense que c'était vraiment le début de, vous savez, voir beaucoup de femmes en médecine et en droit. Jonathan : OK, donc la médecine et le droit, vous avez dit que pour vous, c'était le grand, comme beaucoup de femmes l'ont fait. Je ne peux pas vraiment décrire cela. Je ne sais pas vraiment comment le décrire. OK, euh, qu'est-ce que le féminisme ? Qu'est-ce que le féminisme signifiait pour vous à l'époque ? Ou peut-être que vous... (11:55) L.M. : Oui, comme je pense que je... Jonathan : Oui, je crois que vous avez déjà répondu à cette question. L.M. : Oui, parce que ma mère était professeur d'université et qu'elle avait une longueur d'avance. C'est vrai. Pour moi, le fait d'avoir une, mais je sais certainement qu'en tant qu'enfant, j'étais la seule, vous savez, j'étais la seule femme. J'étais la seule femme, la seule personne de mon école primaire dont la mère travaillait. Elle travaillait, je pense, et vous savez, et c'était probablement à peu près la même chose jusqu'à, jusqu'au lycée, bien que les choses aient peut-être commencé à changer à ce moment-là, il y avait peut-être quelques femmes, vous savez, qui travaillaient parce que leurs enfants étaient à l'école. Mais c'était certainement moins courant, mais pour moi. J'ai toujours pensé que j'irais à l'université et que je travaillerais parce que c'était, vous savez, avec ma mère comme modèle, ce que je pensais faire. Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Donc je suppose que vous appelleriez votre, votre mère, un modèle féministe ? (13:16) L.M. : Elle ne s'appellerait certainement pas comme ça. Vous savez, autant que la première. Les femmes qui avaient réussi professionnellement avaient tendance à bouder le mouvement féministe parce que, vous savez, elles avaient fait leur propre chemin. Elles ne pouvaient donc pas comprendre quel était le problème des autres. Cela dit, je ne suis pas d'accord avec ma mère sur ce point. Je pense qu'il y a des problèmes, et il y en a encore, sur la façon dont les femmes sont traitées sur le lieu de travail, mais j'ai eu beaucoup de chance. Je n'ai pas rencontré de problèmes moi-même. Eh bien, oui, il y a, il y a certainement, je, je dirais qu'il y a certainement certains aspects du réseau des vieux garçons et vous savez les hommes qui s'occupent d'eux-mêmes et il était plus difficile pour les femmes de se frayer un chemin, généralement je pense. Jonathan : Hmm, c'est intéressant. Mais vous dites que votre mère n'aimait pas vraiment le mouvement féministe ? (14:18) L.M. : Non, parce qu'elle ne l'a pas fait. Pour elle, ce n'était pas un problème, vous savez. Il suffit d'y aller et de le faire, de faire ce que l'on veut faire et c'est tout. Et elle, je veux dire. Et elle travaillait évidemment à cette époque dans un environnement très masculin, mais elle a réussi. Je pense donc qu'elle n'était pas trop compatissante. Elle était juste. Jonathan : Oui, c'est. C'est très intéressant. Je n'avais pas vraiment, vous savez, je pense. Elle est dans un endroit dominé par les hommes, elle devrait l'être, oui, vous savez. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, oui. Je pense que c'est peut-être à cette époque qu'on l'a accepté, on ne l'a pas vraiment accepté, je ne sais pas. (15:01) Jonathan : Oui, je suppose que c'était vrai. Vous avez accepté les choses. C'est comme ça. L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et puis bien sûr, vous avez déjà parlé du droit et de la médecine, mais vous savez, à U Ottawa, les programmes et les départements étaient des endroits où les femmes n'étaient pas acceptées. Pas acceptées. Vous savez, peut-être comme l'ingénierie. L.M. : Eh bien, oui, c'est probablement vrai... Jonathan : Le plus gros ? L.M. : -Je pense que je pense, oui, je ne pense pas que je connaissais des femmes dans l'ingénierie. Oui, je pense que c'est possible, mais je ne l'étais pas vraiment. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas vraiment proche de quelqu'un dans la revue d'ingénierie non plus. Alors oui, c'est difficile à dire. Jonathan : Mais y en avait-il ? Oui. Oui. Mais tu sais, peut-être que tu en connaissais. Peut-être que vous connaissiez aussi des clubs ou comme, oh non, on n'aime pas les femmes dans ce club. L.M. : Oui, pas vraiment. Jonathan : Dans les clubs ? L.M. : Je n'aimais pas vraiment les clubs, alors oui. (16:04) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et la partie suivante, c'est sur, euh, la contre-culture en général, qui est en fait tout, vous savez, vous n'êtes pas vraiment d'accord avec les valeurs de vos parents. Vous avez déjà dit, euh, vous savez, vous avez eu un petit conflit avec votre mère à propos du féminisme ? L.M. : Euh, je, je. Non, je n'étais pas en conflit avec elle. Je, vous savez... Jonathan : Mais vous n'étiez pas d'accord. L.M. : -J'étais enclin à être d'accord avec elle. Pardon ? Jonathan : Oui. Vous n'étiez donc pas d'accord ? Jamais, non, vraiment. Conflit. L.M. : Oui. Eh bien, je pense qu'à l'époque, je veux dire que j'aurais, j'aurais été en désaccord plus tard dans la vie. Je pense qu'à l'époque, j'ai juste accepté, hum, vous savez, je pensais qu'elle savait probablement de quoi elle parlait, et je ne le savais pas. Je ne m'attendais pas à rencontrer des problèmes personnels. Et cela n'a jamais été le cas, mais... Jonathan : Donc à l'époque vous, vous savez, vous n'avez pas vraiment réfléchi, vous, vous étiez plutôt d'accord ? (17:02) L.M. : Oui, à l'époque, je ne le savais pas. Oui, à l'époque, je pensais simplement que j'allais, vous savez, terminer mon diplôme et trouver un emploi et que ce, qu'un master pourrait conduire à un emploi intéressant. Et, et j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants, je ne sais pas si le master y a contribué. Soudain, le fait d'être bilingue, d'être bilingue à Ottawa, c'était la grande affaire ? Jonathan : C'est une chose importante. Oui, j'aime à penser que votre maîtrise vous aide parce que j'envisage d'en obtenir une après cela. L.M. : Vous allez bien, c'est bien pour vous. Qu'est-ce que c'est ? Quel est le vôtre ? Votre domaine est l'histoire. Jonathan : Oui, c'est de l'histoire ancienne. L.M. : Oui, tant mieux pour vous. Jonathan : Merci. L.M. : Oui, non, je vous encourage à le faire. Jonathan : J'aime bien. J'aime à penser que cela a été d'une grande aide. L.M. : Oui, vous savez, je crois que les diplômes en histoire, en anglais ou en sciences sociales sont tous très utiles parce qu'en fin de compte. (17:56) Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : En fin de compte, il faut être capable de comprendre les gens. Quel que soit le domaine dans lequel on travaille. C'est pourquoi les études aident à cela. Jonathan : Oui, honnêtement, je pense qu'une licence est l'une de ces choses que les gens n'aiment pas. Il faut donc avoir un master, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : Eh bien, c'est ce que je pensais à l'époque. C'est ce que je pensais aussi à l'époque. Et vous savez, j'avais peut-être raison. Comme je l'ai dit, j'ai toujours eu des emplois intéressants. Donc. Jonathan : J'espère que vous avez toujours raison. L.M. : Oui, pour vous, j'espère que j'ai raison aussi, j'en suis sûre. Je suis sûr que si vous êtes en première année et que vous êtes déjà en train de faire ce genre de travail, ce que vous avez dit que seuls les étudiants de troisième et quatrième année font habituellement, c'est un bon signe. Jonathan : J'espère que oui. D'ACCORD. Et euh, la prochaine partie de ces questions, OK, donc euh, pensez-vous que les gens, peut-être pas vous-même, mais comme les gens que vous avez connus, ont peut-être des valeurs différentes de celles de leurs parents ? (19:07) L.M. : Oui, je pense que dans une certaine mesure, oui. Je veux dire que je pense que c'est, c'est probablement assez normal pour chaque génération, je dirais. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. L.M. : Mais parce que je veux dire, les choses changent et évoluent et, et c'était peut-être particulièrement vrai dans les années 70. Je veux dire, à cause du mouvement féministe et parce que, vous savez, les femmes avaient, avaient le sentiment de mieux contrôler leur corps. Elles pensaient qu'elles avaient plus de chances d'obtenir de bons emplois et de pouvoir faire ce qu'elles voulaient. Je veux dire, je pense que c'était ça le truc. Le féminisme a commencé à briser les rôles attribués aux hommes et aux femmes, ce qui était une bonne chose. Ce qui était une bonne chose. C'est, c'est, c'est. Je pense que c'était le début. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Mais à ce propos, connaissez-vous d'autres femmes qui étaient des activistes, qui ont participé à des marches ou à des protestations ? (20:22) L.M. : Non, pas particulièrement. Jonathan : Hmm. Ce genre de choses était-il rare à Ottawa ? L.M. : Je ne m'en souviens pas, pour être honnête. Vous savez, c'est amusant. Je me souviens de choses qui se passaient à Vancouver, mais je ne me souviens pas, je ne me souviens pas d'Ottawa et, comme je l'ai dit, peut-être que je traînais simplement avec des gens qui étaient trop studieux, qui étaient soit. Jonathan : Pas de temps pour l'activisme. (21:02) L.M. : C'est exact. Mais oui, je ne me souviens pas vraiment. Et c'est bizarre parce qu'on pourrait penser qu'à Ottawa, il y aurait des mais. Mais je ne sais pas. Jonathan : Peut-être qu'ils sont tous dans un endroit très éloigné. Pas près de l'université. C'est intéressant. L.M. : Peut-être qu'il y a tellement de Main Street parce que c'est une ville tellement gouvernementale que c'est le gouvernement et l'ingénierie. Je veux dire, alors peut-être que les gens là-bas étaient plus droits. Ils faisaient partie, vous savez, ils étaient au centre du pouvoir, donc ils n'avaient pas à protester. Jonathan : Oui, ils ont déjà fait toutes les choses. Oui. Umm, eh bien, d'habitude, c'est comme à l'extérieur de la ville. Les gens viennent à Ottawa. C'est comme, oh, vous savez, faire des marches et des protestations. L.M. : Oui, c'est certainement le cas aujourd'hui, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, c'est assez, ça semble assez courant de nos jours ugh. (21:57) L.M. : Oui. Mais je ne me souviens pas que ce genre de choses se soit produit à... Jonathan : Oui. D'ACCORD. Mais d'accord, en regardant en arrière pendant cette période, quel aspect de la société canadienne était le plus, vous savez, cassé ou juste quelque chose qui devait être désinfecté. Je crois que vous avez parlé de l'aliénation de l'Occident. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Eh bien, il y avait l'aliénation de l'Ouest et il y avait aussi l'accent mis sur le Québec et la tentative de faire en sorte que le Québec reste au sein du Canada. C'était certainement une question importante à l'époque. Jonathan : Et cela a éclipsé d'autres questions que vous jugiez également très importantes. L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Jonathan : Ouais, est-ce qu'il y a eu des problèmes spécifiques à l'Ouest qui n'ont jamais été abordés ? L.M. : Non, je pense que oui. C'était juste plus un sentiment. Je ne sais pas s'il y avait quelque chose de spécifique. Il y avait un sentiment, vous savez, financier dans une certaine mesure, je pense qu'il y avait un sentiment que, que beaucoup d'argent fédéral allait au Québec pour essayer d'apaiser le Québec... Et que le... (22:58). Et que le (22:58) Jonathan : C'est plutôt le sentiment d'être une personne de seconde zone. D'ACCORD. Dans le même ordre d'idées, quelles étaient, selon vous, les plus grandes formes d'injustice à cette époque ? Je pense que vous pouvez toujours répondre à la question de l'aliénation occidentale. L.M. : Oui, et aussi, je veux dire, je pense que même si, comme je l'ai dit, ma mère ne pensait pas que c'était un problème. Je pense que c'était le cas. Il y avait encore des problèmes avec les femmes sur le marché du travail. Jonathan : Oui. Bon, vous n'avez rien d'autre à dire à ce sujet ? (24:04) L.M. : Le Québec, comme je l'ai dit, et vous savez, le séparatisme québécois parce que je pense que la plupart des gens, certainement les gens que je connaissais, que ce soit en Colombie-Britannique ou en Ontario, ne voulaient pas que le Québec se sépare parce qu'ils avaient le sentiment que cela perturberait beaucoup l'ensemble du pays. Jonathan : Oui, certainement. L.M. : Comme je l'ai dit, c'était probablement le cas. Vous savez, au Canada, c'était probablement l'une des principales questions à l'époque. Jonathan : Les enjeux de l'époque, eh bien, je suppose que tout cet argent fédéral a porté ses fruits, le Québec a voté pour rester dans le groupe, oui. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Ils sont toujours avec nous. Jonathan : Et dernière question à ce sujet, pensiez-vous que le système politique était démocratique, juste et adapté aux problèmes de l'époque ? L.M. : Oui, je pense que oui. Parce que j'étais, vous savez, j'étais un étudiant libéral à l'époque. Je pensais donc que le gouvernement libéral faisait de son mieux pour régler les problèmes. De plus, à l'époque, je pense que la politique était beaucoup plus respectueuse. Je me souviens d'avoir eu, je crois que j'ai mentionné que j'étais assistant d'enseignement et je me souviens que l'un de mes étudiants travaillait sur la Colline et travaillait pour un député conservateur, vous savez, et il parlait du, du véritable respect en coulisses que vous savez, que tous les députés avaient les uns pour les autres parce que vous savez, ce qui n'est pas, je ne pense pas que vous voyez cela au même degré aujourd'hui, ce qui est très affligeant à la fois au Canada et aux États-Unis, ainsi que dans le monde entier. Il semble que nous soyons de plus en plus polarisés. (25:01) Jonathan : C'est vrai, oui. (26:04) L.M. : C'est très inquiétant. Mais vous savez, à l'époque, je pense que le gouvernement fonctionnait probablement mieux qu'aujourd'hui. Je pense que nous avions un système de cabinet qui fonctionnait raisonnablement bien, et donc oui, à l'époque, je pensais que les choses étaient raisonnablement bien gérées. Jonathan : OK, euh, le premier ministre à certains moments, c'était Pierre Trudeau, c'est ça ? L.M. : Oui. Jonathan : Oui, Pierre Trudeau, OK. Vous avez donc pensé que c'était bien. L.M. : Oui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais pas mal de respect pour lui. Oui, oui, non, j'avais un certain respect pour lui. Et je pensais qu'il essayait de faire des choses décentes. Jonathan : Et même comme le gouvernement en général, la politique en général, c'était mieux, mieux à l'époque qu'aujourd'hui ? L.M. : La politique en général était bien meilleure qu'aujourd'hui, oui. Je pense que Trudeau père était plus intelligent que son fils et que le gouvernement était plus... (26:58) Jonathan : Compétent ? L.M. : -était plus efficace que. Oui, c'est vrai. Oui, c'est vrai. Parce qu'au fil du temps, il y a eu de plus en plus de pouvoir concentré dans le bureau du Premier ministre. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Nous en sommes maintenant à la dernière partie, dans 30 minutes. En fait, je pense que nous avons passé plus de temps à parler la dernière fois. L.M. : Oui, probablement, mais... Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, c'est tout. C'est bien, plus long, plus long, Entretien c'est mieux pour moi. D'ACCORD, D'ACCORD. Pour finir, les historiens disent que l'introduction de la pilule contraceptive, la légalisation de l'avortement et le mouvement de l'amour libre ont changé les relations entre les hommes et les femmes dans les années 1970. Êtes-vous d'accord ? L.M. : Oui (28:05) Jonathan : Oui ? Avez-vous quelque chose à ajouter à ce sujet, comme un point de vue personnel ? L.M. : Eh bien, non. Oui, ce n'est pas nécessairement un point de vue personnel, mais je pense que cela a permis. D'abord, c'est en partie ce qui a permis aux femmes de s'impliquer davantage dans le monde du travail, parce qu'elles pouvaient décider si elles avaient des enfants ou quand elles en auraient. Parce que c'était certainement, vous savez, au début, l'un des défis ou l'une des choses que l'on lançait aux femmes en termes d'embauche. Vous savez, pourquoi feriez-vous cela ? Parce que, vous savez, elles vont juste partir et fonder une famille parce que c'est ce que les femmes étaient toujours censées faire dans le passé. Je pense donc que cela a fait une différence. Jonathan : OK. (29:02) L.M. : Et, cela a probablement aussi fait une différence, je ne sais pas si c'est vrai ou non, je pense que les femmes. Je n'ai jamais ressenti cela, mais je ne sais pas si certaines femmes ont eu l'impression qu'il était plus facile d'avoir des relations multiples ou si les gens étaient plus détendus en ce qui concerne la fréquence ou l'opportunité des rapports sexuels au sein d'une relation. Jonathan : Non. L.M. : Je pense qu'il y en a eu qui auraient fait la différence pour les femmes. Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et à propos de, vous savez, les rencontres et tout ça, à quoi ressemblait une rencontre à l'époque, hein ? L.M. : À quoi ressemblaient les rendez-vous ? Jonathan : Oui, c'était la même chose qu'aujourd'hui. Oui, c'est vrai. Vous prenez votre rendez-vous, vous allez dîner. L.M. : Eh bien, je veux dire, je ne sais pas, parce qu'honnêtement, je ne sais pas. Je ne sais rien de ce à quoi ressemblent les rencontres aujourd'hui. On dirait que tout le monde regarde son téléphone tout le temps. (29:57) Jonathan : Eh bien, oui. Vous, vous faites, vous faites ça beaucoup, mais vous allez aussi, vous savez, au restaurant, au concert, au théâtre, etc. L.M. : Oui, c'est bien. C'est bien sans ton téléphone. Jonathan : Oui. Sans téléphone, il faut aussi interagir physiquement. L.M. : Oui. Oui. Je suis contente d'entendre que ça continue parce que oui, c'est en gros ce que j'ai fait, certainement, je me souviens d'être allée à Québec pour rendre visite à des amis, j'avais des amis qui étaient venus de Vancouver, et j'étais à Laval, et, et, et oui, et mon petit ami a emménagé. Il a vécu à Ottawa pendant quelques années, puis il a déménagé à Montréal. Il a fait un stage là-bas, alors j'ai fait des allers-retours. Mais oui, c'était plus, vous savez, sortir avec des amis ou juste sortir ensemble, aller au restaurant, peut-être aller au théâtre. Jonathan : Est-ce que vous avez eu de longs appels téléphoniques avec eux ? Peut-être que si vous êtes loin, vous savez. (31:03) L.M. : Oui, nous avions parfois de longs appels téléphoniques et nous avions l'habitude d'y aller. Nous avions l'habitude de nous retrouver. Nous faisions des randonnées. Je me souviens d'avoir fait, avec lui et d'autres amis, des excursions en canoë pendant l'été, organisées par l'un de mes amis. Jonathan : Oui. C'est trop à l'extérieur pour moi. L.M. : Oui, c'est beaucoup trop extérieur pour cette enquête, n'est-ce pas ? Jonathan : Oui, eh bien. Cela dépend probablement de la personne. Je suis un citadin, donc je n'aime pas y aller. L.M. : Oui. Ce n'est donc pas le cas. Oui. Oui. Je pense que c'est probablement ce qui se passe de plus en plus, mais... Jonathan : Beaucoup plus de gens vivent dans les villes. L.M. : Mais non, j'ai aimé. Oui, j'aime le plein air. C'est toujours le cas, mais pas autant. En tout cas, oui, parce que j'avais l'habitude de faire du ski de fond et du ski alpin. Quand j'étais à l'Université de l'Ontario, je faisais probablement encore plus de ski alpin, puis j'ai commencé à faire du ski de fond. Mais oui, non, j'aime le plein air. Alors oui, j'ai fait de la randonnée et... Jonathan : Il y a du ski à Ottawa ? (32:06) L.M. : Eh bien, il y a le camp fortune. Je ne sais pas si le Camp Fortune existe encore. Je veux dire que ce n'est pas le cas. Beaucoup de ski A. Je ne peux pas l'oublier. Il n'y a pas grand-chose, c'est sûr. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Je crois que ça s'appelait Camp Fortune. Jonathan : C'est toujours là. Ohh c'est au nord de Gatineau. L.M. : Dans la région de Gatineau, oui. Jonathan : Mais toujours près d'Ottawa. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai, parce que c'était l'autre chose. Il y avait pas mal de, vous savez, vous savez, j'avais des amis qui allaient au Québec pour boire, vous savez, ils allaient à la Chaudière ( ??). C'était un endroit très connu. Jonathan : Parce que l'âge légal était plus bas ? L.M. : Un peu comme. Les heures étaient plus longues. Jonathan : Oh. Ah, tu peux boire plus. L.M. : Oui, c'est vrai. Jonathan : Je n'ai jamais bu, donc je ne connais pas ce genre de choses. Pensez-vous qu'il y ait des choses spéciales dans les années 1970 ? Comme quelque chose qui ne se reproduit plus jamais en matière de rencontres ou, vous savez, de vie sociale ? (32:55) L.M. : Non, je veux dire, comme je l'ai dit, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement probablement en termes de, de, de, de, de femmes se sentant plus libres que par le passé et vous savez, capables. D'avoir plus de contrôle sur leur vie. Mais cela s'est poursuivi, bien qu'il y ait maintenant, aux États-Unis, des gens que nous n'avons peut-être pas, il y a probablement des cinglés ici aussi, qui veulent mettre un terme à cela. Jonathan : Oui. L.M. : Vous savez, certains des républicains fous qui essayaient de prendre le contrôle, d'enlever le contrôle aux femmes et d'interdire l'avortement et le contrôle des naissances, je trouve incroyable que l'on puisse essayer de faire un pas en arrière à ce stade, mais je pense que c'est une bonne chose. Jonathan : Oui, c'est fou. Ça fait quoi, 50 ans ? (34:07) L.M. : Oui. Je pense que c'est tout simplement ça. Je pense qu'il s'agit d'hommes très conservateurs qui se sentent menacés par tout, par les femmes, par les personnes d'autres races. Je ne sais pas quel est leur problème, mais ils le sont. Jonathan : Oui. Je crois qu'on s'est un peu trop attardé là-dessus. Oui, il s'agit des années 70, pas d'aujourd'hui. L.M. : Oui. D'ACCORD. Je suis désolée. Oui, non. Mais je pense que c'était le début. Je ne dirais pas que c'est quelque chose qui s'est produit à l'époque et que nous n'avons jamais revu. Mais je pense qu'il y a eu des changements significatifs qui se sont produits à l'époque et qui se poursuivent encore aujourd'hui en termes de rôles des hommes et des femmes. En ce qui concerne les rôles des hommes et des femmes. Jonathan : OK, donc il y a eu un grand changement social pendant cette période. (35:07) L.M. : Le temps, mais je pense que c'est là. Oui, je pense que c'était le début d'un changement important. Jonathan : Mais en même temps, ça n'affectait pas vraiment ce que vous faisiez pour vous amuser et tout ça. L.M. : Non, je ne pense pas que mes centres d'intérêt aient particulièrement changé, j'ai grandi en m'intéressant aux arts et au théâtre et c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, c'est ce que j'ai fait à l'époque, c'est ce que j'ai fait avant, c'est ce que j'ai fait depuis, je suis toujours la même personne et je continue à m'intéresser à ce qui m'entoure. Jonathan : OK. Oui, bon, d'accord. Et la dernière, dernière, dernière partie. Il s'agit du harcèlement sexuel. Aujourd'hui, de nombreuses universités ont été obligées de contrôler le harcèlement sexuel. Dans quelle mesure l'université surveillait-elle les événements sociaux ou les réunions à l'époque à cause du harcèlement sexuel ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas du tout. (36:14) Jonathan : Pas du tout ? L.M. : Je ne pense pas. Jonathan : Est-ce qu'il y a eu, est-ce que vous pensez qu'il y a eu, comme un pamphlet du genre, oh, ne, ne violez pas ? Je suis désolée. L.M. : Eh bien. Oui, je ne pense pas. Je ne pense pas que ce genre de choses ait vraiment été mis en lumière à ce moment-là. Je pense que c'est beaucoup plus récent. Je veux dire, je pense qu'il y avait des problèmes à l'époque, mais je ne pense pas que je veux dire, évidemment, sur la base de ce que nous savons maintenant, il y a eu tout un tas de mauvais comportements pendant longtemps et il y en avait aussi à l'époque, mais ce n'était pas, ce n'était pas mis en lumière à l'époque. C'est quelque chose qui s'est produit plus récemment. Jonathan : Mais pensez-vous que l'université a considéré cela comme un problème ou qu'elle s'est dit, oh, c'est juste une affaire personnelle ? (37:05) L.M. : Oui, je pense qu'ils le considéraient, je ne pense pas qu'ils le considéraient comme un problème, mais je ne pense pas que c'était vraiment sur le radar. Je veux dire, évidemment, vous savez, si, si un viol se produisait, les gens s'en inquiéteraient, mais... Jonathan : OK. D'ACCORD. L.M. : Mais pas moi. C'est oui. Jonathan : Mais l'université n'a pas fait tout ce qui était en son pouvoir pour l'empêcher. L.M. : Non, il n'y avait rien de proactif à l'époque en ce qui concerne... Jonathan : OK. L.M. : -au viol. A ces questions, je suppose que c'est ainsi que j'aurais. Pour le dire. Jonathan : D'accord. Et oh, j'ai oublié quelque chose pour la dernière chose, la dernière chose concerne la sexualité et le harcèlement. Je suis désolé. Et donc les deux dernières questions. Parce que le projet spécifique est, il y a beaucoup d'intérêt pour l'amour libre. Quelle était la perception des relations sexuelles avant le mariage ? Pensez-vous que c'était accepté ou non ? Ou... (37:49) L.M. : Oui, c'est ça. La différence entre la génération de mes parents et la mienne, c'est que les relations sexuelles avant le mariage étaient acceptées dans ma génération, dans les années 70, alors qu'elles ne l'étaient pas dans les générations précédentes. Et je pense, oui, je pense que c'était accepté dans les années 70 à cause de la disponibilité du contrôle des naissances. Jonathan : OK. Est-ce que vous pensez ? Mais pensez-vous que c'était peut-être même encouragé, comme si les gens, à cause du contrôle des naissances, voulaient avoir beaucoup de relations sexuelles ? L.M. : Je pense que c'était probablement beaucoup plus, c'était plus, il y avait plus de gens qui s'engageaient dans une activité sexuelle que dans la génération de mes parents, probablement, oui. (38:58) Jonathan : D'ACCORD. Et avec vos parents, est-ce que vos parents ou les parents d'autres personnes, s'inquiétaient de ce genre de choses, comme, oh, "n'ayez pas de relations sexuelles avant le mariage". Est-ce qu'ils vous l'ont déjà dit ? L.M. : Oui, bien sûr. Oui, je pense que cela aurait été comme je, je veux dire que je n'ai jamais parlé de sexe avec mes parents. Nous n'avons jamais eu cette conversation... Jonathan : Ah oui. L.M. : ... mais je me souviens qu'à un moment donné, il en a été question parce que, comme je l'ai dit, j'avais l'habitude d'aller camper avec mon petit ami. Et d'autres choses encore. Alors je pense que mes parents étaient probablement inquiets de ce qui pouvait se passer et, vous savez, s'ils étaient inquiets, ils avaient raison. Si ça les concernait, ils avaient raison d'être inquiets, mais on n'en a jamais parlé et, vous savez... Jonathan : Donc on ne savait jamais s'ils étaient comme... (39:57) L.M. : -J'utilisais un moyen de contraception, donc c'était, vous savez, pour moi, une chose naturelle à faire à cet âge. Pour mes parents, cela ne l'aurait probablement pas été et ils auraient préféré que mon comportement imite le leur, mais c'était une autre époque. C'était une autre époque. Jonathan : Hmm, ça ouais, c'est pareil maintenant tu sais. Mes parents, ils ne veulent pas que je leur ressemble, oui. L.M. : Bien sûr. Oui, je pense que c'est l'attente des parents parce que c'est ce qu'ils savent, et donc c'est eux, ils sont. Les gens semblent toujours trouver le changement difficile. Jonathan : Oui, c'est vrai. Bon, en fait, c'est toutes les questions. D'accord, d'accord, parfait. L.M. : Très bien. J'espère que cela a fonctionné cette fois-ci et... Jonathan : Oui, je l'espère vraiment. Ugh. L.M. : Oui. Oui, je suis désolée que vous vous soyez retrouvée coincée avec un sujet qui n'est pas, pas, en dehors de la norme de ce que le projet recherche. Jonathan : Eh bien, pour être juste, je pense que vous êtes beaucoup plus proche que d'autres personnes parce que, apparemment, beaucoup d'autres étudiants ont eu du mal à contacter la, la première personne qu'on leur a donnée. (41:04) L.M. : Oh, c'est vrai ? Jonathan : Oui. Et apparemment, comme il y avait beaucoup de problèmes, le professeur a dit : "Connaissez-vous quelqu'un qui est allé à l'école dans les années 1970 ?" Oui, n'importe qui. En fait, c'est comme si on demandait à ses propres parents s'ils étaient allés à l'université à l'époque, alors je pense qu'on est beaucoup plus proche de ce qu'ils attendaient. L.M. : Vous savez comment ? Oui. Savez-vous comment ils ont dressé la liste ? Comment ont-ils fait, comment ont-ils fait. Jonathan : La liste des personnes ? L.M. : Oui, la liste des contacts avec lesquels vous travailliez. Jonathan : Je n'en ai aucune idée. Je sais juste que le professeur comme vous savez qu'il a contacté beaucoup de monde. Comment comment vous joindre ? L.M. : Eh bien, il est intéressant de noter que dans mon cas, je n'ai pas été contacté directement, mais dans le cadre du contact, il y avait un, un de mes amis qui était le seul autre anglophone dans le programme que je suivais à l'Université d'Ottawa et dans le programme de maîtrise et, pour une raison quelconque, il était sur la liste et il me l'a transmise en disant, vous savez, au cas où je serais intéressé, il pensait que je l'avais probablement reçue aussi, puisqu'il l'avait reçue, mais je ne l'avais pas reçue. C'est pourquoi j'étais curieux parce que je me disais que j'avais donné de l'argent à l'Université d'Ottawa, que j'étais toujours sur la liste et que j'étais toujours exclu de l'Université d'Ottawa (41:57). Jonathan : Ohh. L.M. : Mais je ne l'ai pas fait. Je n'étais pas. Je n'étais pas sur leur liste, alors j'étais curieuse de savoir comment ils y étaient parvenus. Parce que je veux dire, ça ne devrait pas être le cas. Jonathan : D'accord. Je pense qu'en ce qui vous concerne plus particulièrement, vous avez obtenu votre diplôme en 1976, n'est-ce pas ? L.M. : C'est exact. Jonathan : Au départ, si je me souviens bien, ils voulaient les gens qui avaient obtenu leur diplôme en 1974. (42:58) L.M. : Oui, oui. Jonathan : C'est un peu bizarre, et oui, vous étiez juste, comme, juste en dehors de la liste. L.M. : C'est exact. Je pense que nous étions en quelque sorte à la fin de la vague. Je veux dire, je pense qu'à bien des égards, la plupart des choses vraiment excitantes se sont produites à la fin des années 60. C'est donc à ce moment-là que ces idées étaient plus nouvelles, si vous voulez. C'est ça, oui. Nous étions donc à la fin de cette période. Jonathan : Je crois qu'il a dit qu'il avait consulté les annuaires et la base de données de l'université, par exemple, et qu'il avait contacté les adresses électroniques des gens, qu'il avait envoyé un courriel à tout le monde pour voir qui répondait. L.M. : D'accord. Oui, parce que c'est là que réside le défi. Vous avez la liste des diplômés, mais vous n'avez aucune idée de l'endroit où ils se trouvent aujourd'hui. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas pourquoi je n'ai pas été contactée parce que, peut-être que c'est comme vous dites, c'est juste que mon ami qui était là à la même époque, nous étions là pour la même chose. Nous y étions tous les deux de 74 à 76. Nous étions là les deux mêmes années, alors je ne sais pas vraiment pourquoi ils l'auraient trouvé lui et pas moi. Jonathan : Oui, je pense que c'est vraiment le cas. Peut-être que tu lui as manqué. Oui, tu sais qu'il... Oui, tu le sais. C'est comme ça, oui, c'est comme ça. (44:03) L.M. : Eh bien, de toute façon, eh bien, je... J'espère que vous êtes vous et vos amis. Combien de personnes avez-vous dû interviewer ? Jonathan : Euh, non, juste toi. Il y en avait un. J'avais une autre personne, mais elle a dit qu'elle était trop occupée pour travailler avec moi. L.M. : OK. Jonathan : Oui. Eh bien, honnêtement, je pense que j'ai beaucoup de chance que vous ayez répondu, oui. L.M. : Eh bien, cela vient probablement de mon expérience d'assistante pédagogique. J'ai de la sympathie pour les étudiants. Jonathan : Je vous remercie. L.M. : De rien, et je vous souhaite bonne chance dans vos études. Jonathan : Merci. Oui, c'est vrai. Je vous remercie. Merci beaucoup d'avoir renouvelé l'expérience. L.M. : De rien. (45:02) Jonathan : Oui, bonne journée. L.M. : Vous aussi. Au revoir. Jonathan : Oui. Je vous remercie. Au revoir. (45:05) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource M., L (pseudonym) (Interview) Description An account of the resource Interview about uOttawa in the 1970s, including the dating/social life, feminism, and a little politics. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, 45 minutes, 10 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Birth Date 1952 Birthplace Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Schools Attended Catholic grade schools Immaculata High School University of Ottawa Degree BA Career professional Occupation Nurse Ethnicity Swiss Religious Culture Catholic Christian Devotional Life casual Gender Identity woman Sexual Orientation straight Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Paradis, Philippe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Palmer, Elizabeth Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, via Teams Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis So for the first question, cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music and consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa has a bilingual institution and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones related together. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis So the first question would be there were less electronics in Canada in the 70s. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Like none. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis So how was your leisure time structured or what did you Ottawa students do for fun in the 70s? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Well, we went to the pub after school. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer I'm sure they still do that now, but there was. 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer We went to my father, used to laugh. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer We went to the library every night and after the library closed that cause I was studying nursing. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer So we were at the medical library, we would go to the the Albion, which I don't think is there anymore. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer It's gone and probably went there almost every night. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer There were dances, there were. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer We ran the School of Nursing on. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.140 Liz Palmer We were in the and at that point we were at the building where engineering is now. 0:1:44.750 --> 0:1:50.940 Liz Palmer Which is probably an old building to you, but for us it was brand new and every Friday we ran a pub. 0:1:51.530 --> 0:1:56.410 Liz Palmer One week it was by nursing and the other week it was by the engineering students. 0:1:57.150 --> 0:2:3.220 Liz Palmer So there were lots of pubs, parties, lots of get togethers. 0:2:3.750 --> 0:2:7.180 Liz Palmer Umm, that kind of thing. 0:2:7.190 --> 0:2:9.700 Liz Palmer And there was some art groups. 0:2:10.230 --> 0:2:12.800 Liz Palmer There were readings. 0:2:13.470 --> 0:2:14.230 Liz Palmer There were. 0:2:16.730 --> 0:2:18.0 Liz Palmer Poetry readings auto. 0:2:18.10 --> 0:2:21.770 Liz Palmer You had a lot of that kind of stuff and they used to go to all those sorts of things, yeah. 0:2:22.820 --> 0:2:25.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So like a lot of obviously in person activities. 0:2:25.250 --> 0:2:27.100 Liz Palmer All it was all in person. 0:2:32.10 --> 0:2:36.980 Philippe Alain Paradis And so you mentioned pubs, so that sort of answers the question. 0:2:36.990 --> 0:2:40.260 Philippe Alain Paradis What we're the most popular hangout spots on and off campus. 0:2:41.770 --> 0:2:51.420 Liz Palmer It would be the Albion for us and and then the pub that we ran, the weekly pub that ran at the at the at the build. 0:2:51.430 --> 0:2:54.860 Liz Palmer I forget what the name of the building is now, but it was it's. 0:2:55.70 --> 0:2:56.620 Liz Palmer It's the engineering building now. 0:2:56.710 --> 0:3:2.300 Liz Palmer They had a big common room there and that's that's that was every Friday night through the through the whole year. 0:3:3.520 --> 0:3:3.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Nice. 0:3:4.620 --> 0:3:7.750 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you attend any live music events during the university years? 0:3:8.990 --> 0:3:12.100 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, a lot of those things that we went to had live bands. 0:3:13.300 --> 0:3:17.10 Liz Palmer Some of them had DJ's, umm. 0:3:17.210 --> 0:3:18.920 Liz Palmer There was no rap in those days. 0:3:18.930 --> 0:3:23.790 Liz Palmer Everything was disco in the 70s, so yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:3:25.380 --> 0:3:32.280 Liz Palmer Ohh, looky, Looky Boo was a big deal on Sussex and it was alternative music at the time. 0:3:33.170 --> 0:3:37.720 Liz Palmer Umm, it would have been folk music, different things like that. 0:3:38.590 --> 0:3:42.470 Liz Palmer Different groups would have come into that smaller area. 0:3:42.840 --> 0:3:44.620 Liz Palmer Bruce Coburn in different people like that. 0:3:45.650 --> 0:3:47.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Were there a lot of rock bands back then? 0:3:47.970 --> 0:3:49.120 Philippe Alain Paradis At these places. 0:3:49.100 --> 0:3:51.710 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah yeah, there were some that wasn't really. 0:3:51.720 --> 0:3:54.80 Liz Palmer I I liked a lot of different music but. 0:3:56.250 --> 0:4:3.770 Liz Palmer Trying to think of there were quite a number of Ottawa that five man electrical band I think was one of them. 0:4:5.140 --> 0:4:7.340 Philippe Alain Paradis So disco is the big one. 0:4:7.840 --> 0:4:10.30 Liz Palmer Disco was the big thing at that time. 0:4:10.40 --> 0:4:18.40 Liz Palmer Probably more into the mid 70s, but I started in started Ottawa U. 0:4:18.50 --> 0:4:21.420 Liz Palmer Guess it was September of 1970, yeah. 0:4:26.990 --> 0:4:29.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa said earlier auto you auto was the bilingual institution. 0:4:30.370 --> 0:4:34.0 Philippe Alain Paradis How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s? 0:4:39.700 --> 0:4:40.640 Liz Palmer Yep, Yep. 0:4:34.10 --> 0:4:40.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Did francophones and anglophones enroll in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? Yeah. 0:4:41.860 --> 0:4:43.550 Liz Palmer I wasn't a big club person. 0:4:44.310 --> 0:4:46.980 Liz Palmer The nursing program was very busy. 0:4:48.510 --> 0:4:50.930 Liz Palmer We had lots of classes in. 0:4:50.940 --> 0:4:53.320 Liz Palmer Mike was interesting in my class Ottawa. 0:4:53.330 --> 0:5:1.930 Liz Palmer You the first year there were, I would say, 120 students, 130 students maybe. 0:5:1.940 --> 0:5:2.590 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:5:2.680 --> 0:5:6.440 Liz Palmer They seem to be a lot out, I'd say more than half of them were French speaking. 0:5:7.260 --> 0:5:11.430 Liz Palmer They had very little, if any, English. 0:5:11.580 --> 0:5:13.670 Liz Palmer Most of them came to Ottawa. 0:5:13.680 --> 0:5:17.550 Liz Palmer Because they were told they could take their course in French. 0:5:18.120 --> 0:5:25.600 Liz Palmer However, the nursing program at that time was very new in on Canada and especially on Ontario. 0:5:25.870 --> 0:5:30.910 Liz Palmer So they're all the teachers came from the US or had been trained in the US so they all spoke English. 0:5:31.640 --> 0:5:37.730 Liz Palmer So all the nursing programs were done in English, but they could do all their other classes in French. 0:5:38.260 --> 0:5:45.630 Liz Palmer So we lost, I would say at least 1/3 of the students after first year because they couldn't, they couldn't. 0:5:46.220 --> 0:5:52.870 Liz Palmer They weren't good enough in English to to pass to sit through the classes, so I don't know where they went. 0:5:52.880 --> 0:5:57.330 Liz Palmer They may have gone to to Montreal or to Sherbrooke, or I don't know where they went. 0:5:58.110 --> 0:6:2.320 Liz Palmer But the English, the nursing program was only offered in English. 0:6:2.330 --> 0:6:5.170 Liz Palmer I'm I'm not sure, but I think it still is even to this day. 0:6:6.400 --> 0:6:7.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Huh, that's interesting. 0:6:9.30 --> 0:6:10.590 Philippe Alain Paradis They were really just French. 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:12.60 Philippe Alain Paradis There weren't as many bilingual people? 0:6:12.660 --> 0:6:21.160 Liz Palmer Well, the bilingual students were fine, but there were a large number of French only students, and they came from all over Quebec. 0:6:21.420 --> 0:6:24.830 Liz Palmer Small a lot of them came from small towns, northern Ontario. 0:6:25.820 --> 0:6:29.500 Liz Palmer Some of them came from New Brunswick and and they only spoke French. 0:6:30.650 --> 0:6:35.460 Liz Palmer So, but anyone who was bilingual and and had enough English. 0:6:35.940 --> 0:6:36.290 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:6:36.300 --> 0:6:44.240 Liz Palmer A number of my friends were French Canadian and they but they were bilingual and they had enough of English that they could. 0:6:44.250 --> 0:6:51.120 Liz Palmer They could handle the course load, so that was fine, but if you were totally French, it was very difficult. 0:6:53.60 --> 0:7:1.240 Philippe Alain Paradis You might not know this cause it's like a really specific question, but do you have any information on if anglophones and francophones dated each other during the 1970s? 0:7:1.710 --> 0:7:2.820 Liz Palmer Oh, absolutely. 0:7:3.300 --> 0:7:3.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:7:3.210 --> 0:7:4.330 Liz Palmer Absolutely. Sure. 0:7:5.100 --> 0:7:5.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:7:7.70 --> 0:7:7.730 Liz Palmer Why wouldn't we? 0:7:6.270 --> 0:7:8.930 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, so we use the term alright. 0:7:10.940 --> 0:7:13.350 Philippe Alain Paradis I mean, I guess like the language barrier with a lot of them, right? 0:7:13.360 --> 0:7:15.580 Philippe Alain Paradis If they if they just spoke French, they. 0:7:16.270 --> 0:7:19.400 Liz Palmer Most I'll tell you, most French people speak some English. 0:7:19.870 --> 0:7:22.330 Liz Palmer Most English people don't speak very much French. 0:7:24.810 --> 0:7:25.800 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:7:23.370 --> 0:7:26.330 Philippe Alain Paradis I've I've found that to be true as well, yeah. 0:7:25.870 --> 0:7:35.910 Liz Palmer And I spoke, I I grew up in a Ottawa in a in a real working class neighborhood and I would say more than 50% of the people in my neighborhood spoke French. 0:7:39.70 --> 0:7:39.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:7:35.920 --> 0:7:39.900 Liz Palmer So I could speak French to A to some degree, yeah. 0:7:40.50 --> 0:7:40.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:7:40.730 --> 0:7:45.920 Philippe Alain Paradis So we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside of the classroom. 0:7:46.160 --> 0:7:50.910 Philippe Alain Paradis How do you describe the party culture on the University Ottawa campus during 70s? 0:7:52.480 --> 0:7:53.0 Liz Palmer Vibrant. 0:7:56.820 --> 0:7:57.470 Liz Palmer It was. 0:7:57.880 --> 0:8:0.230 Liz Palmer It was very active and it was great. 0:8:0.240 --> 0:8:0.600 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:8:0.660 --> 0:8:2.20 Liz Palmer Yeah, we had a lot of parties. 0:8:2.30 --> 0:8:5.530 Liz Palmer We I remember everything was face to face. 0:8:5.540 --> 0:8:7.360 Liz Palmer There was no virtual stuff. 0:8:7.670 --> 0:8:10.360 Liz Palmer Computers didn't really exist. 0:8:10.450 --> 0:8:12.10 Liz Palmer I had a friend who was in. 0:8:14.30 --> 0:8:19.870 Liz Palmer Uh, in computer math at in Kitchener. 0:8:19.880 --> 0:8:21.420 Liz Palmer Waterloo at Waterloo. 0:8:21.430 --> 0:8:23.590 Liz Palmer You and she. 0:8:24.710 --> 0:8:31.60 Liz Palmer I would go down to visit her and I would go into would go in at 2:00, o'clock in the morning to play, quote, unquote play on the computer. 0:8:31.70 --> 0:8:34.270 Liz Palmer And the computer was the size of a of a huge room, right? 0:8:35.80 --> 0:8:42.240 Liz Palmer So computers, that's the that's that was probably 7273 somewhere in there. 0:8:42.330 --> 0:8:48.900 Liz Palmer So at that point, there were no tabletop computers or anything that you could that you could easily use. 0:8:49.50 --> 0:8:52.460 Liz Palmer There were no phones like cell phones or anything like that. 0:8:52.470 --> 0:9:4.90 Liz Palmer So yeah, the whole culture was, uh, face to face party, music, dancing, you know, different things like that. So. 0:9:5.20 --> 0:9:5.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:9:5.370 --> 0:9:7.390 Philippe Alain Paradis You really had to like if you want to have fun. 0:9:12.540 --> 0:9:13.250 Liz Palmer Well, it was. 0:9:7.400 --> 0:9:13.300 Philippe Alain Paradis You really have to like set up events and stuff that there wasn't as much digital stuff you want or any digital stuff you could do, yeah. 0:9:13.320 --> 0:9:15.590 Liz Palmer It was normal to set stuff up. 0:9:16.270 --> 0:9:16.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:9:15.600 --> 0:9:22.270 Liz Palmer I mean, whether you go down to the market, the market was a place that you could go to, but it wasn't the way it is now. 0:9:22.780 --> 0:9:28.170 Liz Palmer Leibu was on Sussex and then there were a couple of other coffee houses in the city, but. 0:9:30.360 --> 0:9:36.650 Liz Palmer If you wanted to meet people, you had to go out and and it was just you. 0:9:36.660 --> 0:9:38.410 Liz Palmer Just everybody just went out all the time. 0:9:38.420 --> 0:9:43.110 Liz Palmer It was none of this, like, you know, covid's really put a damper on a whole lot of stuff. 0:9:43.120 --> 0:9:45.860 Liz Palmer So life was very, very different. 0:9:46.820 --> 0:9:47.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:9:47.240 --> 0:9:51.430 Philippe Alain Paradis Today, if you want to go to a party, you like have to seek it out pretty intensely. 0:9:52.580 --> 0:9:53.490 Liz Palmer Yeah, I. 0:9:51.440 --> 0:9:55.980 Philippe Alain Paradis I find like the you have to, you have to really look for it. Umm. 0:9:56.40 --> 0:10:1.650 Liz Palmer So yeah, the and the girls that lived in the I lived at home, I say half the class. 0:10:1.660 --> 0:10:4.350 Liz Palmer The My class still lived at home in Ottawa. 0:10:4.800 --> 0:10:11.290 Liz Palmer A few were from outside the city and a number of people lived, you know, on on campus. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.830 Liz Palmer And there were campus. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.320 Liz Palmer There were parties, you know, and on campus as well. 0:10:17.810 --> 0:10:21.70 Liz Palmer And there was, I think there were. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:31.540 Liz Palmer Not that I went there very often, but there were small little cafes all around the university and you could go there and just drink. 0:10:31.630 --> 0:10:35.180 Liz Palmer They didn't have booze or anything, but you go drink coffee and meet your friends and stuff. 0:10:35.190 --> 0:10:37.60 Liz Palmer And there were a number of those places around. 0:10:37.810 --> 0:10:40.60 Liz Palmer There were couple on on Laurie. 0:10:40.70 --> 0:10:48.300 Liz Palmer There was a coffee, quote unquote coffee house at the university, but it was kind of more like a, you know, a great big open area. 0:10:48.310 --> 0:10:53.240 Liz Palmer It wasn't very intimate or small or anything like that, but yeah, yeah. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:57.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:10:54.930 --> 0:11:0.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Total like 180 from that what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:11:2.320 --> 0:11:3.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like the general sentiment. 0:11:6.390 --> 0:11:7.410 Liz Palmer Pretty much over by then. 0:11:8.340 --> 0:11:8.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.750 Liz Palmer It was in my life. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:14.90 Liz Palmer It wasn't a huge deal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.480 Liz Palmer The bigger deal, because I was at school during the October crisis. 0:11:18.620 --> 0:11:18.810 Liz Palmer Uh. 0:11:18.740 --> 0:11:19.50 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:11:18.820 --> 0:11:19.770 Liz Palmer With the FLQ. 0:11:19.780 --> 0:11:25.880 Liz Palmer So when I was walking up to school, there were soldiers in the streets and there were tanks in the streets. 0:11:26.860 --> 0:11:39.100 Liz Palmer And that was interesting, I mean, but it just was there, I mean those things you know, if there's, you know you're walking up to school one day cause I lived in new Edinburgh and I would walk up to Ottawa. 0:11:39.110 --> 0:11:51.990 Liz Palmer You where I take the bus and all of a sudden there were tanks in the streets and there were and they because Ottawa U was a French university, quote unquote. It was. 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:54.180 Liz Palmer It was classified as a French university. 0:11:55.590 --> 0:11:57.860 Liz Palmer They had a lot of soldiers and stuff around there. 0:11:57.870 --> 0:12:4.810 Liz Palmer Nothing ever happened, but it because of the FLQ crisis and everything that happened after that, there was a lot of. 0:12:7.360 --> 0:12:12.770 Liz Palmer I guess there was a lot of people watching to make sure nothing else would happen, but I never saw anything happened. 0:12:12.780 --> 0:12:19.900 Liz Palmer I just remember walking up and seeing this and being thinking ohh, but I wasn't terribly politically involved at that point. 0:12:26.910 --> 0:12:28.470 Liz Palmer Exactly, yeah. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:34.420 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, that, that reminds me a little bit of my first year when I am I could hear like the trucker convoy honking like it's it's just kind of jarring to know that there's like a large group of people that in, like, tensions are really high. 0:12:34.490 --> 0:12:34.690 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that must have been something to witness. 0:12:36.970 --> 0:12:42.240 Liz Palmer It it it was, it was quite something that we never seen anything like that before, right? 0:12:42.250 --> 0:12:50.30 Liz Palmer And but there was no like, I mean there my parents would say, well, I I tell them what happened and they say, oh, well, just stay out of the neighborhood or walk around it. 0:12:50.40 --> 0:12:56.520 Liz Palmer And nobody had little fits about, you know, all the oh, my God, my kids gonna get killed or something. 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:57.120 Liz Palmer It was nothing. 0:13:1.260 --> 0:13:1.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:12:58.180 --> 0:13:2.370 Liz Palmer I guess people just didn't realize what could have happened if something had happened. 0:13:2.380 --> 0:13:4.600 Liz Palmer You know, I don't know, but. 0:13:4.700 --> 0:13:13.510 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, it's interesting that people weren't as well, like, at least some people weren't as interested in the Vietnam War cause the way like I was taught it, it was such like a contentious thing. 0:13:13.740 --> 0:13:16.840 Philippe Alain Paradis But I guess by the 70s it was, it was mostly done with. 0:13:16.770 --> 0:13:18.800 Liz Palmer It was contentious in the states. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:13:19.50 --> 0:13:21.330 Liz Palmer There were in Canada. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:23.890 Liz Palmer There were. 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:39.810 Liz Palmer There was a woman in my class whose husband was a deserter or a conscientious objector or deserter, according to whichever side you were on and and she and she and her husband moved up from the States and she was quite a bit older. 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:49.550 Liz Palmer She was probably in her mid mid 20s and she had a child at that point, so they came up ohm because of that and that was always interesting. 0:13:49.560 --> 0:13:49.920 Liz Palmer You talked? 0:13:49.930 --> 0:13:53.260 Liz Palmer Or kept in touch with her for years and years after. 0:13:53.430 --> 0:13:54.420 Liz Palmer But they never went back. 0:13:55.430 --> 0:14:0.920 Liz Palmer They stayed in Canada that they liked it and they didn't want their son to end up going through what they had gone through. 0:14:0.930 --> 0:14:3.980 Liz Palmer But I mean, it was in the news all the time and whatever. 0:14:3.990 --> 0:14:10.780 Liz Palmer But it was just part of it's, you know, part of the regular news news reports. 0:14:11.710 --> 0:14:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm so rock'n'roll artists and the 1960s had promoted various forms of protest. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:33.840 Liz Palmer Thanking care one way or the other, my parents were from Switzerland, so they were first generate like they were. 0:14:34.70 --> 0:14:43.0 Liz Palmer They both came in the late 40s and had every intention of moving back to Switzerland, but then somehow with four kids, it didn't happen. 0:14:43.370 --> 0:14:44.270 Liz Palmer So they were really. 0:14:46.150 --> 0:14:46.890 Liz Palmer Music. 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.330 Liz Palmer Yeah, rock'n'roll was just a type of music for them. 0:14:49.340 --> 0:14:52.360 Liz Palmer They didn't particularly like it, but we didn't. 0:14:52.510 --> 0:14:59.790 Liz Palmer I didn't really start listening to the radio till I was about 12 years old, maybe 12 or 13 or so. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:8.880 Liz Palmer That would have been what, 6465, somewhere like that, as I really didn't know much about the music at all. 0:15:8.890 --> 0:15:10.360 Liz Palmer And I was the oldest of four. 0:15:14.970 --> 0:15:15.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:15:10.370 --> 0:15:15.700 Liz Palmer So U the others followed whatever they wanted to. 0:15:17.430 --> 0:15:20.360 Philippe Alain Paradis So they were kind of just indifferent about it, uh. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.220 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was, yeah, pretty much. 0:15:22.70 --> 0:15:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Uh, so some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.20 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 70s? 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:34.330 Liz Palmer Not quite available. 0:15:33.470 --> 0:15:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis If you know, yeah. 0:15:34.620 --> 0:15:35.990 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were quite available. 0:15:36.380 --> 0:15:37.290 Liz Palmer Yeah, they were. 0:15:37.300 --> 0:15:43.510 Liz Palmer There was always somebody you could always buy something you always knew there was somebody around who could get stuff for you. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:47.450 Liz Palmer Never did anything for me, just made me feel sick. 0:15:47.460 --> 0:15:48.900 Liz Palmer So I never did much of it. 0:15:49.550 --> 0:15:51.370 Liz Palmer Umm so it's. 0:15:53.820 --> 0:15:57.270 Liz Palmer And we were so busy with other things that we didn't have time for that. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:7.700 Liz Palmer I mean, you know when when you're doing a nursing program, you went to school five days a week and then, but then you had to do, we had to be in the hospital 3 mornings a week. 0:16:7.710 --> 0:16:11.370 Liz Palmer So you didn't have time to, you didn't have time for any of that nonsense. 0:16:11.380 --> 0:16:18.810 Liz Palmer And we were all older and most of us, well, certainly me didn't have any access to it. 0:16:18.820 --> 0:16:24.30 Liz Palmer I went to a Catholic girls high school, so it was pretty strict and my family was very strict. 0:16:24.140 --> 0:16:26.930 Liz Palmer So I never really had got into this. 0:16:34.80 --> 0:16:34.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:16:29.0 --> 0:16:37.130 Liz Palmer Probably until I got to university, but and it was never a big deal for me or my friends, yeah. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Today it's pretty common like today, it's pretty common. 0:16:37.780 --> 0:16:41.430 Philippe Alain Paradis You'll see, like I'll be in the parking lot and I'll see someone smoking something a little funny. 0:16:42.110 --> 0:16:42.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.970 Philippe Alain Paradis And and you know it's it's very it was it open like that back then like it was just or well a more secretive. 0:16:46.370 --> 0:16:49.840 Liz Palmer No, no, because it it was far more secretive. 0:16:49.850 --> 0:17:1.830 Liz Palmer I mean, I mean, the best thing was, is I remember we go to parties and there were brownies and I love brownies, so I would eat these brownies and and feel really weird after that. 0:17:1.840 --> 0:17:4.160 Liz Palmer And then somebody would say how many did you have? 0:17:4.170 --> 0:17:9.790 Liz Palmer And I say I had two or three and I said, Oh my God, you better go home or go sit in the corner and fall asleep. 0:17:9.800 --> 0:17:11.730 Liz Palmer So that's all it ever did and made me sleep. 0:17:11.740 --> 0:17:21.460 Liz Palmer So I was no fun at a party if they if if there were any drugs like that around it, it just wasn't something I wanted to waste my time or my money on. 0:17:21.470 --> 0:17:22.610 Liz Palmer I didn't have any money either. 0:17:22.620 --> 0:17:24.770 Liz Palmer So you know that was the other thing too. 0:17:24.0 --> 0:17:26.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, not super appealing. 0:17:27.390 --> 0:17:27.590 Liz Palmer No. 0:17:29.260 --> 0:17:38.930 Philippe Alain Paradis And the 19 in the 1970s see a lot of talk about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach like a higher state of consciousness. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you know like to what extent people use Hallucinogenics specifically? 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:46.950 Liz Palmer Not many people I knew. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280 Liz Palmer We just, we all just figured it was stupid to do that. 0:17:50.700 --> 0:17:50.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Fair. 0:17:50.620 --> 0:17:52.610 Liz Palmer So why would you want to do that to yourself? 0:17:53.460 --> 0:17:53.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:17:53.780 --> 0:17:58.590 Liz Palmer Like we, we were not umm, we're very practical. 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:1.60 Liz Palmer Down to Earth people, I don't know that it was just not. 0:18:2.680 --> 0:18:17.180 Liz Palmer I mean, I guess also because we were in nursing in medicine, we would see the results of some of this and it was very you know when we're doing mental health, there were a lot of people at the royal at that time who had tripped badly and there was no way I was gonna do any of that stuff. 0:18:18.170 --> 0:18:18.880 Philippe Alain Paradis That's interesting. 0:18:18.890 --> 0:18:23.230 Philippe Alain Paradis You actually got to see like the the bad results from that. Umm. 0:18:23.20 --> 0:18:23.310 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:34.910 Liz Palmer And if some of them were pretty awful, I mean that that was, I think the thing being in medicine or nursing or anything is that you you saw the result of bad medicine or bad tripping or bad drugs or whatever it was. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.540 Liz Palmer And you know, it was not pleasant. 0:18:38.820 --> 0:18:40.100 Liz Palmer And and again we weren't. 0:18:39.90 --> 0:18:40.220 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you get a lot of those? 0:18:42.850 --> 0:18:43.580 Liz Palmer There were some. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.70 Liz Palmer You know, we surgeries that went bad. 0:18:48.80 --> 0:19:4.610 Liz Palmer Uh, I saw a 12 year old have a baby and decided that point that maybe you know that having an abortion was not a bad thing, got into a lot of our angry discussions with my own parents who are fiercely Catholic and whatever. 0:19:4.620 --> 0:19:15.350 Liz Palmer And at that point, I left the church, and because there's no way that I could ever condone a 12 year old having a baby because that was, you know, she was my she was my client. 0:19:15.360 --> 0:19:20.280 Liz Palmer And I'm thinking, Holy God, you know, that's just not a way for anybody to start their life. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Nope. 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:22.540 Liz Palmer No. 0:19:24.130 --> 0:19:26.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, alright, so this one. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:30.630 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:43.250 Philippe Alain Paradis Will this next section will focus more on the female experience, so cultural historians have written a lot about what they call second wave feminism that as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.80 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:49.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:54.310 --> 0:19:54.820 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:19:54.830 --> 0:19:59.800 Liz Palmer I mean, there was we, we read all the the books and we, you know, we followed all that sort of stuff. 0:20:0.810 --> 0:20:2.530 Liz Palmer Probably more so than the war in Vietnam. 0:20:5.830 --> 0:20:14.760 Liz Palmer But everything was changing at that time, so it was very different from probably people have been at university in the 60s like. 0:20:14.770 --> 0:20:25.730 Liz Palmer I mean, if you if you would talk to someone who was university in the 60s, if you'd get it very different viewpoint, I think umm, it was accepted that women would work. 0:20:26.740 --> 0:20:30.360 Liz Palmer It was accepted that, you know, women would get equal pay. 0:20:32.70 --> 0:20:33.130 Liz Palmer Uh, of course. 0:20:33.140 --> 0:20:36.170 Liz Palmer At that point, everybody is saying, oh, yes, yes, yes, that's the way it is. 0:20:36.180 --> 0:20:42.380 Liz Palmer And it wasn't till 20 years later that we realized that women were being paid less for the same jobs. 0:20:42.450 --> 0:20:42.980 Liz Palmer Right. 0:20:43.580 --> 0:20:43.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:20:43.860 --> 0:20:44.580 Philippe Alain Paradis They're wage gap. 0:20:43.90 --> 0:20:44.860 Liz Palmer But that had yet to come. 0:20:45.130 --> 0:20:45.530 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:20:45.590 --> 0:20:51.360 Liz Palmer So the so the possibilities were there, everybody looked forward to things changing. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.560 Liz Palmer You know the burn, your bra thing that was there were a lot of went to a lot of those sorts of rallies and things like that. 0:21:0.580 --> 0:21:6.130 Liz Palmer Umm, but honestly, we were so busy we didn't have time to do a lot of that. 0:21:6.140 --> 0:21:12.420 Liz Palmer I mean, we were busy living our life and going to school and doing stuff was, you know, we didn't. 0:21:12.810 --> 0:21:14.450 Liz Palmer You had to hand write all your essays. 0:21:15.770 --> 0:21:17.140 Liz Palmer I didn't have a typewriter. 0:21:17.430 --> 0:21:25.60 Liz Palmer So you can imagine like you know, you were busy doing stuff and you actually had to go to a library and use books to look things up. 0:21:25.70 --> 0:21:27.0 Liz Palmer There was nothing online to do it. 0:21:27.10 --> 0:21:33.760 Liz Palmer So your life was busy doing things that now take a tenth of the time of what they used to take. 0:21:35.250 --> 0:21:35.710 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:21:34.730 --> 0:21:44.340 Liz Palmer And there's no there were no chat bots or whatever to get you through stuff, and there was no AI to write your papers for you or anything, you know. 0:21:44.350 --> 0:21:46.340 Liz Palmer So it was it was. 0:21:46.570 --> 0:21:47.280 Liz Palmer It was different. 0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:47.660 Liz Palmer It was a very. 0:21:49.450 --> 0:21:56.290 Liz Palmer Different time and I guess for women, I do remember I had a a friend in my class. 0:21:56.300 --> 0:21:58.560 Liz Palmer Her father was a physician here in Ottawa. 0:21:58.670 --> 0:22:0.440 Liz Palmer Old, old fashioned. 0:22:0.890 --> 0:22:1.740 Liz Palmer Nice man. 0:22:1.750 --> 0:22:3.310 Liz Palmer Old-fashioned French Canadian. 0:22:5.360 --> 0:22:7.190 Liz Palmer His daughter is was brilliant. 0:22:7.280 --> 0:22:14.770 Liz Palmer Probably the smartest of the whole family should have been a position, but he wouldn't allow her to do medicine because she was a girl. 0:22:14.820 --> 0:22:22.400 Liz Palmer Because women should stay home and have babies and look after their families and and at the time, I couldn't. 0:22:25.340 --> 0:22:25.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.830 Liz Palmer I I had really had a problem with that because. 0:22:25.630 --> 0:22:33.630 Philippe Alain Paradis So you went to like some events because like, I imagine that probably like sure like that made you feel stuff there that that's pretty that's pretty like upsetting to hear. 0:22:33.980 --> 0:22:35.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. Yeah. 0:22:33.930 --> 0:22:37.690 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, it was I I found it very upsetting but I have to. 0:22:38.580 --> 0:22:44.210 Liz Palmer It wasn't till years later till I realized that my parents were very different from a lot of other. 0:22:44.220 --> 0:22:47.70 Liz Palmer I came from a low a very working class neighborhood. 0:22:48.490 --> 0:22:54.350 Liz Palmer My parents both worked with no choice because they, but because they came from Europe, they were. 0:22:54.360 --> 0:22:58.320 Liz Palmer They weren't German, they were Swiss, but they were always treated as if they were German. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:22:59.990 Liz Palmer So post war, that was a big deal. 0:23:2.400 --> 0:23:12.10 Liz Palmer But my parents always said to said to my sister and I at the two oldest you guys are going to go to university like there was never any option that we wouldn't go. 0:23:13.50 --> 0:23:17.0 Liz Palmer It was expected that we would go to university and that's all there was to it. 0:23:17.170 --> 0:23:18.420 Liz Palmer We grew up that way. 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:30.700 Liz Palmer My brothers, my two younger brothers, went as well and I didn't realize till I was quite a bit older than a lot of women like they had to pay their own way to go to universe. 0:23:30.710 --> 0:23:35.580 Liz Palmer Their parents wouldn't pay for it because women didn't go to university in those days. 0:23:36.130 --> 0:23:36.710 Liz Palmer They just didn't. 0:23:37.810 --> 0:23:41.450 Liz Palmer Umm, it was just you would go to. 0:23:41.460 --> 0:23:43.190 Liz Palmer You know you could work in the government. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:44.790 Liz Palmer You could do secretarial school. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:52.470 Liz Palmer I had good friends that did secretarial school, but out of my like, I'm thinking about my my sort of grade school class. 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.100 Liz Palmer My even my high school, my high school class, was the best. 0:23:56.770 --> 0:24:10.780 Liz Palmer Graduated June 1970, I would say 1/3 of 1/3 of my class went on to university and I would say about half my class got married because they were. 0:24:11.130 --> 0:24:14.960 Liz Palmer They were Italian background so they got it. 0:24:15.70 --> 0:24:21.560 Liz Palmer They were lucky they got through high school and then they got married that summer and then the rest of us went on to do different things. 0:24:21.570 --> 0:24:25.310 Liz Palmer And I say maybe 1/3 of us out of that class went on to university. 0:24:26.120 --> 0:24:27.620 Liz Palmer So it was a very different time. 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:28.830 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:24:34.860 --> 0:24:36.750 Liz Palmer I wasn't inequality, it's just the way it was. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:37.230 Liz Palmer It was. 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:37.470 Philippe Alain Paradis So like as you went along, you started being exposed to more of these like injustices and like inequalities and a little bit, right? 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.70 Liz Palmer It was cultural. 0:24:38.80 --> 0:24:46.280 Liz Palmer It was very, very cultural and because because it was a Catholic girls school, there were a lot of Italian young ladies there. 0:24:46.290 --> 0:24:52.180 Liz Palmer They were friends, but those of us that weren't that were from different backgrounds. 0:24:52.190 --> 0:25:0.140 Liz Palmer I would say uh, as I said about 1/3 a third of bus went on to university and and finished university and did different things. 0:25:1.550 --> 0:25:4.140 Liz Palmer But then a whole lot of them didn't. 0:25:4.210 --> 0:25:7.960 Liz Palmer You know, some went on to secretarial school, some worked in a government. 0:25:9.40 --> 0:25:12.110 Liz Palmer It was umm, but I didn't realize again. 0:25:12.120 --> 0:25:21.280 Liz Palmer As I said earlier, until much later in life that my family was very different because the expectation was that we would go to university and my parents paid for it. 0:25:21.290 --> 0:25:22.160 Liz Palmer That was the other thing. 0:25:22.780 --> 0:25:23.110 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:25:22.750 --> 0:25:23.390 Liz Palmer My dad. 0:25:23.120 --> 0:25:23.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you. 0:25:23.470 --> 0:25:24.130 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:24.350 --> 0:25:25.240 Liz Palmer Yeah, my dad sort. 0:25:29.220 --> 0:25:29.370 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:32.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, you didn't realize like maybe later other people wouldn't agree with that, like other people might not like the notion of a woman going. Yeah. 0:25:33.980 --> 0:25:34.200 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:34.690 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, no women didn't. 0:25:34.780 --> 0:25:41.90 Liz Palmer There was still that that old fashioned idea that women don't go to university, they don't need higher education because they're just gonna get married. 0:25:41.100 --> 0:25:43.100 Liz Palmer And they're gonna have kids, and they're gonna stay home. 0:25:43.850 --> 0:25:49.490 Liz Palmer Well, neither myself, my sister nor my good friends did any of that. 0:25:49.500 --> 0:25:50.800 Liz Palmer We we all. 0:25:50.860 --> 0:25:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, most of us married, we all had jobs. 0:25:53.210 --> 0:25:53.910 Liz Palmer We worked. 0:25:54.330 --> 0:26:7.310 Liz Palmer We were like that whole generation of younger women that had our children use daycare or whatever and and continued working right up until we retired. 0:26:8.700 --> 0:26:9.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:9.330 --> 0:26:13.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:26:14.120 --> 0:26:14.630 Philippe Alain Paradis How did? 0:26:14.740 --> 0:26:15.470 Philippe Alain Paradis How did that? 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:16.790 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:26:17.180 --> 0:26:17.620 Liz Palmer No kidding. 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:18.250 Philippe Alain Paradis How did peeing a woman? 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:18.890 Philippe Alain Paradis How? 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis How is it being a woman result in different treatments and expectations in classrooms where at social events compared to male students? 0:26:27.970 --> 0:26:31.120 Liz Palmer It's hard to say because most everyone in my class was female. 0:26:31.130 --> 0:26:33.390 Liz Palmer There were no male students, so. 0:26:33.450 --> 0:26:34.20 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:26:34.750 --> 0:26:41.770 Liz Palmer So in those days, yes, if you were going in to a building, the men would hold the door for you. 0:26:44.300 --> 0:26:44.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:26:44.230 --> 0:26:45.340 Liz Palmer That's all I. 0:26:45.380 --> 0:26:52.360 Liz Palmer But as you know, when it came to other, I think expectations of female students and male students were the same. 0:26:52.370 --> 0:26:53.480 Liz Palmer You had to produce. 0:26:53.790 --> 0:26:58.950 Liz Palmer You know, if there was paperwork to be done or essays to be written, you had to produce those. 0:27:0.540 --> 0:27:5.150 Liz Palmer I don't because my class was all women and all taught by women. 0:27:5.160 --> 0:27:7.670 Liz Palmer There were no male teachers either it. 0:27:8.800 --> 0:27:16.300 Liz Palmer I mean, I took the psychology and philosophy and I did some film classes and art classes and stuff, but. 0:27:21.150 --> 0:27:21.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:27:18.470 --> 0:27:22.210 Liz Palmer I didn't feel that there was any difference, to be honest. Yeah. 0:27:24.230 --> 0:27:24.990 Liz Palmer That was it, yeah. 0:27:21.670 --> 0:27:26.250 Philippe Alain Paradis You just attended class and did the work and that was that. Yeah. 0:27:26.360 --> 0:27:39.160 Philippe Alain Paradis So in the 1970s, were there, you oughta programs, departments or clubs or like just social events or anything where women like or maybe you or just women in general, like felt less like present and accepted. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:42.930 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:27:42.750 --> 0:27:43.930 Liz Palmer No, I never felt that. 0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:45.260 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright. 0:27:45.340 --> 0:27:47.130 Liz Palmer Now if I wanted to be there, I'd be there. 0:27:47.140 --> 0:27:49.500 Liz Palmer If I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. 0:27:49.860 --> 0:28:0.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, alright, so historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:28:1.390 --> 0:28:1.640 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:28:0.100 --> 0:28:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and better world? 0:28:13.170 --> 0:28:15.380 Liz Palmer Umm interesting question. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:23.140 Liz Palmer I think we all felt the need to see it to get into a better world, for sure. 0:28:24.550 --> 0:28:30.150 Liz Palmer Umm, we certainly felt that women were equal to anything a man did. 0:28:31.370 --> 0:28:31.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:28:34.650 --> 0:28:41.450 Liz Palmer There were probably guys I met that were stupid, but you know, they didn't last long in my world. 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.870 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.320 Liz Palmer I most of the boyfriends I had were older. 0:28:50.610 --> 0:28:54.700 Liz Palmer UM, at the time the like. 0:28:54.710 --> 0:28:55.360 Liz Palmer It was interesting. 0:28:55.370 --> 0:29:1.590 Liz Palmer The engineers in our building were big drinkers, Big partiers. 0:29:2.850 --> 0:29:10.180 Liz Palmer I don't know if they're still the same I, but at the time that's the way they were the, you know, there was the football games and all that stuff. 0:29:10.190 --> 0:29:12.180 Liz Palmer And they were always drunk or whatever. 0:29:12.570 --> 0:29:21.230 Liz Palmer And they always sort of made stupid comments, but as we got to know them and they got to know us as people, it was that kind of disappeared. 0:29:21.550 --> 0:29:22.470 Philippe Alain Paradis But humanize them. 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.610 Liz Palmer But that whole? 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.310 Liz Palmer Yeah, exactly. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:29.510 Liz Palmer But you know at the beginning it was all this stupid stuff and we just told them to get stuffed. 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:37.390 Liz Palmer And I mean, it was just most of our friends most we did a lot of work with the with medicine. 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:51.740 Liz Palmer Like we took some of our courses with the medical students and as we got to know them really well, like the people in that like their first year medicine and stuff we did, we did some anatomy and Physiology classes over at the medical building. 0:29:51.750 --> 0:29:52.260 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:29:52.270 --> 0:30:2.930 Liz Palmer I don't think they do that anymore, but I I don't know how it's set up, but we got to know those guys and there were a few women, but again, it was mainly men there as well. 0:30:3.630 --> 0:30:8.0 Liz Palmer So and the and the nursing was all was all women and all female teachers. 0:30:8.10 --> 0:30:10.970 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess. 0:30:13.100 --> 0:30:13.780 Liz Palmer I don't. 0:30:17.780 --> 0:30:18.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:30:15.10 --> 0:30:20.170 Liz Palmer I don't remember being terribly conscious about it, but it was certainly something that we were aware of. 0:30:20.180 --> 0:30:20.910 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:30:21.310 --> 0:30:21.600 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:30:22.330 --> 0:30:30.120 Philippe Alain Paradis And to what extent did your generation believe that your parents, notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:30:35.780 --> 0:30:37.690 Liz Palmer Yeah, well, that was an interesting one. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:45.100 Liz Palmer Umm my, I would go on a date in the first thing my mother would say is what is this father do and where does he go to church? 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.390 Liz Palmer And I said I have no clue. 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:48.250 Liz Palmer I could just. 0:30:48.820 --> 0:30:52.330 Liz Palmer To me, that was that was the traditional role, right? 0:30:52.700 --> 0:30:58.390 Liz Palmer I I remember at one point I was going out with a fellow for for quite a while and my mother was getting very insistent. 0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.870 Liz Palmer I said, mom, I'm going to dinner. 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:9.470 Liz Palmer I'm not marrying the man and she was, like, totally blown away because if you were going out to someone, then the possibility was there that you're in it, married. 0:31:9.480 --> 0:31:10.450 Liz Palmer And I said absolutely not. 0:31:10.810 --> 0:31:12.330 Liz Palmer I mean, we're just going out for dinner. 0:31:12.340 --> 0:31:13.890 Liz Palmer We're going to a movie. 0:31:13.900 --> 0:31:15.150 Liz Palmer We're going to a concert. 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:16.450 Liz Palmer You know, whatever it is. 0:31:17.140 --> 0:31:29.570 Liz Palmer So I I would say that yes, our our notions of dating and marriage and and as I mentioned, you know, some religious notions were were very much at odds with each other. 0:31:29.580 --> 0:31:36.720 Liz Palmer But you had to respect your parents because they were older and they lived a different through a very different time than we did. 0:31:37.690 --> 0:31:42.440 Liz Palmer Umm, but that didn't mean that I had to follow like as I said with the religious thing. 0:31:42.450 --> 0:31:47.40 Liz Palmer And there were things I saw when I was working in the hospital. 0:31:47.50 --> 0:31:55.660 Liz Palmer And you know things that happened to people as a result of stupid religious stuff like, you know, not being able to have an abortion or something and it. 0:31:55.670 --> 0:31:59.460 Liz Palmer And as I said, that was I would never do that for myself. 0:32:3.800 --> 0:32:4.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:31:59.470 --> 0:32:4.990 Liz Palmer But then I never got myself in that into that position either, so yeah. 0:32:4.900 --> 0:32:9.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that's interesting, because that's a like the way that you see the situation of just going to the movies with someone. 0:32:9.860 --> 0:32:13.470 Philippe Alain Paradis And the way that your parents look at it is so vastly different. 0:32:13.590 --> 0:32:14.60 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah. 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.740 Philippe Alain Paradis It's like you're not like marriage is not a thing that like you're going to a movie. 0:32:16.540 --> 0:32:17.910 Liz Palmer Yo, I got I. 0:32:18.340 --> 0:32:20.190 Liz Palmer Yeah, and all the time. 0:32:20.380 --> 0:32:20.520 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:28.240 Liz Palmer I mean, most of my friends during that time, we all, most of us married in in the end. 0:32:30.0 --> 0:32:32.990 Liz Palmer But it wasn't till later and I actually got married. 0:32:33.0 --> 0:32:33.790 Liz Palmer I met my husband. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:35.290 Liz Palmer I graduated in June. 0:32:35.660 --> 0:32:47.130 Liz Palmer I met my husband the following September and we got married the following June and most of my friends got married after that course and a couple got married. 0:32:47.190 --> 0:32:57.810 Liz Palmer Just sort of at the end of that school year, those four years because it was just too hard to deal with marriage and living together and all that other kind of stuff. 0:32:58.700 --> 0:32:59.130 Liz Palmer A lot. 0:32:59.140 --> 0:33:4.790 Liz Palmer A number of people did live together with their boyfriends, but that again was later on. 0:33:6.390 --> 0:33:16.350 Liz Palmer Ottawa was still a pretty small town in those days and we weren't big city people either, so there was a lot of it was still a little bit of that hanging on. 0:33:17.60 --> 0:33:17.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:25.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And looking back at the 70s, what aspects of Canadian society do you see most out of whack and either fixing? 0:33:25.40 --> 0:33:28.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what were you the most passionate about problems wise? 0:33:30.250 --> 0:33:32.160 Liz Palmer Sorry, I don't really understand that question. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:39.80 Philippe Alain Paradis I'm like for example like it could be like feminism or something like what in Canadian society back then. 0:33:41.930 --> 0:33:47.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel like the strongest about that you felt needed changing like a societal thing? 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.200 Liz Palmer Oh, I see. 0:33:49.710 --> 0:33:49.950 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:33:51.340 --> 0:34:0.460 Liz Palmer While religion was still very, very strong, had a big especially in a small town like like Ottawa was a small town a feminism. 0:34:3.90 --> 0:34:4.450 Liz Palmer Was certainly talked about. 0:34:5.350 --> 0:34:11.610 Liz Palmer I looked on with a great deal of hmm, you know, do we do? 0:34:11.620 --> 0:34:12.590 Liz Palmer Do we want this or not? 0:34:15.820 --> 0:34:32.170 Liz Palmer I I would think that religion really, when it comes down to it was it was still had a huge hold on and certainly in the early 70s had a huge hold on how people thought about their lives, about how they lived it, umm, how they brought up their children. 0:34:33.330 --> 0:34:37.300 Liz Palmer Ah, what they would stand for and what they wouldn't so. 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:45.670 Liz Palmer Yeah, families at the war in Vietnam also was an issue because we had so many people. 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:55.730 Liz Palmer We we know there were a number of people that came up to Ontario and there were other people that I had met later on in the years that came up because of that. Umm. 0:34:58.130 --> 0:34:59.600 Liz Palmer We didn't have a lot of money. 0:34:59.610 --> 0:35:1.0 Liz Palmer Money was still a big issue. 0:35:1.10 --> 0:35:10.560 Liz Palmer Money was still a really big class issue in those days too, so if you didn't have a lot of money, you didn't travel, you didn't have the fancy clothes. 0:35:10.570 --> 0:35:13.140 Liz Palmer You didn't live in the fancy houses. 0:35:13.150 --> 0:35:21.620 Liz Palmer You, you know, again, as I say, I came from a pretty working class neighborhood, but my parents, you know, they did everything for us kids. 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:30.60 Liz Palmer They they lived and so their children could do, I guess, could do better in their life, right? 0:35:29.260 --> 0:35:30.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm yeah. 0:35:32.370 --> 0:35:33.80 Liz Palmer There wasn't. 0:35:33.90 --> 0:35:39.810 Liz Palmer It's not like now when you know people have kids and they kind of let them go feral and do whatever they want. 0:35:41.150 --> 0:35:43.50 Liz Palmer Your parents, you know, you came home. 0:35:43.60 --> 0:35:44.860 Liz Palmer You had dinner every night together. 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:49.80 Liz Palmer Uh, and that's what I did with we did with our own children. 0:35:49.90 --> 0:35:50.660 Liz Palmer Is that, you know, dinner was important. 0:35:50.670 --> 0:35:54.820 Liz Palmer You had to come home, have dinner, unless you had a hockey practice or something like that. 0:35:55.330 --> 0:35:56.910 Liz Palmer But family came first. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:2.0 Liz Palmer Your work and then your schooling, etcetera came was ever. 0:36:3.470 --> 0:36:4.780 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues? 0:36:4.790 --> 0:36:6.840 Philippe Alain Paradis It sounds like you mentioned religion a few times. 0:36:15.630 --> 0:36:15.840 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. 0:36:6.850 --> 0:36:19.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Is there one of those issues that like to at the time you were, like, frustrated about it like you like, like like you mentioned for example, like religion a few times like you saw someone at like in that, like clearly needed an abortion. 0:36:19.570 --> 0:36:23.410 Philippe Alain Paradis So like that sounds like that like struck a chord with you a little bit like, yeah. 0:36:22.90 --> 0:36:23.980 Liz Palmer Ohh definitely that was a it was. 0:36:23.990 --> 0:36:32.400 Liz Palmer It was a very big deal for me and because my parents were such staunch Catholics, that became an issue in our family, between myself and my mom. 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:40.650 Liz Palmer My dad was pretty easy going because my excuse me, my dad was originally Lutheran but became Catholic. 0:36:40.660 --> 0:36:44.30 Liz Palmer So he could marry my mother because she wouldn't marry him if he wasn't cast like so. 0:36:44.40 --> 0:36:51.20 Liz Palmer That's how strong her religion was, and we were brought up very strictly in the Catholic faith and we didn't know any better. 0:36:51.30 --> 0:36:53.540 Liz Palmer And we, you know, we actually had a very good life. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:55.150 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:36:56.370 --> 0:36:58.290 Liz Palmer And you know, very safe. 0:36:58.720 --> 0:37:2.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, like I mean, you know, we were never in any danger. 0:37:2.640 --> 0:37:3.840 Liz Palmer We always had enough food. 0:37:5.290 --> 0:37:14.920 Liz Palmer I mean, when you look at what people are going through today, we actually even though we didn't have a lot, we were always you know, well looked after well fed and well loved. 0:37:15.720 --> 0:37:27.120 Liz Palmer But as we got as my sister and I both got older and even my brothers, because they are quite a bit younger than we are, we all left the church behind, which was really interesting. 0:37:27.170 --> 0:37:28.20 Liz Palmer None of us. 0:37:29.290 --> 0:37:32.970 Liz Palmer Well, my kids, I took my kids to church. 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.300 Liz Palmer They went to Sunday school, but my husband's not Catholic. 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:39.970 Liz Palmer My mother in law just about died when she had to go to a Catholic Church. 0:37:39.980 --> 0:37:40.940 Liz Palmer We got married. 0:37:40.950 --> 0:37:44.510 Liz Palmer That was hard for her, but you know, it was those. 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:45.850 Liz Palmer So those religious things? 0:37:45.860 --> 0:37:48.580 Liz Palmer Protestant, Catholic, whatever were very, very strong. 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:57.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:37:51.190 --> 0:37:59.30 Liz Palmer But I guess that that was probably the biggest, the biggest thing, I think until until we got older and things. 0:38:1.520 --> 0:38:2.240 Philippe Alain Paradis Mellow down. 0:38:1.140 --> 0:38:2.770 Liz Palmer Sort of resolved, but again my. 0:38:2.840 --> 0:38:4.340 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:38:5.0 --> 0:38:5.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:5.640 --> 0:38:9.270 Liz Palmer And then the church changed in the 70s and the late in the 80s too. 0:38:9.280 --> 0:38:11.620 Liz Palmer So that was a whole other big issue then. 0:38:13.460 --> 0:38:21.460 Philippe Alain Paradis What did you see back then as the biggest form of injustice in Canadian society, like the things that you found the most unfair? 0:38:23.70 --> 0:38:23.480 Liz Palmer Hmm. 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:28.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:38:25.940 --> 0:38:30.850 Liz Palmer In the at that time, probably women's rights. UM. 0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:39.370 Liz Palmer There wasn't much I worked one summer up north in Moosonee. 0:38:39.380 --> 0:38:55.490 Liz Palmer I worked at A and indigenous hospital at the time and that was the first time I really saw the differences between living, you know, as a white person living South and then going up to an area cause I worked the whole summer up there. 0:38:55.500 --> 0:38:56.330 Liz Palmer I would take. 0:38:56.660 --> 0:39:4.330 Liz Palmer I would take patients back up north to different we they fly them up north and the nurse would have to go with them. 0:39:4.340 --> 0:39:5.500 Liz Palmer I was going as the nurse. 0:39:6.570 --> 0:39:12.270 Liz Palmer That was the first time I really saw those types of injustice, and that was that was a huge deal at the time, I remember. 0:39:13.550 --> 0:39:16.70 Liz Palmer Umm but. 0:39:18.200 --> 0:39:25.660 Liz Palmer Probably I, you know, I wasn't terribly aware in those days of those things to be quite honest, it was. 0:39:25.390 --> 0:39:31.340 Philippe Alain Paradis But it was clear that something had to had to be done about it, and it's. 0:39:30.490 --> 0:39:32.630 Liz Palmer Yeah, the women's rights were a big deal. 0:39:36.670 --> 0:39:43.510 Liz Palmer Medical medical advances that were available to some people and not to others available in some areas but not in others. 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:55.180 Liz Palmer There were, you know, when I was up north, there were women used to come quote unquote S to musani to Moose factory to have their babies. 0:39:55.190 --> 0:40:2.390 Liz Palmer And there were a lot of babies born with very awful birth defects that most of them didn't live. 0:40:4.450 --> 0:40:10.820 Liz Palmer So there was a lot of that that we saw and they're just because they lived in small places like small villages and stuff up north. 0:40:10.870 --> 0:40:11.910 Liz Palmer He had to come that far. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:25.250 Liz Palmer So, but you know, it was it was just a very different life, and that was the first exposure I got to, you know, women that would have 10 or 12 children and and with the child didn't live, they were OK with that because the kid was. 0:40:32.220 --> 0:40:32.450 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:25.260 --> 0:40:36.660 Liz Palmer So I mean, there was no way the child could live because they were so badly are they had so many health issues that they wouldn't live outside of an incubator, right. 0:40:37.410 --> 0:40:37.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:40:37.260 --> 0:40:40.890 Liz Palmer So those those children died within a few days, and the mother was sad. 0:40:40.900 --> 0:40:44.870 Liz Palmer But it was an acceptance which you would never get here. 0:40:44.940 --> 0:40:45.640 Liz Palmer Never get here. 0:40:45.380 --> 0:40:47.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that sounds quite jarring to witness. 0:40:48.170 --> 0:40:50.70 Liz Palmer Umm I was and and then. 0:40:47.700 --> 0:40:52.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And that's yeah, like to see that that that was like normal sort of there was. 0:40:52.590 --> 0:40:53.280 Liz Palmer Exactly. 0:40:53.490 --> 0:40:55.880 Liz Palmer It was, yes, more normalized than it should have been. 0:40:56.750 --> 0:40:56.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:1.590 Liz Palmer But then the children were born with birth defects that you wouldn't see here because of the inbreeding. 0:41:1.600 --> 0:41:2.250 Liz Palmer That a lot of it. 0:41:2.300 --> 0:41:4.70 Liz Palmer That's how it was explained to me at the time. 0:41:5.170 --> 0:41:10.680 Liz Palmer But I think now it was also things like mercury in the water pesticide use. 0:41:10.720 --> 0:41:12.300 Liz Palmer There's probably all that kind of stuff. 0:41:12.310 --> 0:41:14.800 Liz Palmer That was all in there, but we didn't know about it in those times. 0:41:15.460 --> 0:41:15.690 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:41:15.700 --> 0:41:23.540 Philippe Alain Paradis So you saw some pretty pretty like bad issues on the reservations that that's that that's quite a good example of injustice. 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That's that's tragic. 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:30.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:41:24.790 --> 0:41:36.820 Liz Palmer Well, that was the reserves were very also, you know you go up there, you land, there's a nursing station and the house where the doctor lived or the nurse lived at the social worker and the teachers lived. 0:41:36.830 --> 0:41:41.180 Liz Palmer And then then there's where the actual people in the village live. 0:41:42.660 --> 0:41:42.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:41:41.270 --> 0:41:50.70 Liz Palmer Very different and my husband will actually was a was a teacher for, I think two years in a northern community as well on the reserve. 0:41:50.80 --> 0:41:53.680 Liz Palmer And you know, his stories were very similar to that as well. 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:1.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:42:2.0 --> 0:42:4.310 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing any of the any of these issues at all. 0:42:5.900 --> 0:42:8.830 Liz Palmer Ohh, probably not, but honestly I wasn't. 0:42:8.840 --> 0:42:11.200 Liz Palmer I really wasn't into politics at that point. 0:42:11.180 --> 0:42:11.500 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:42:11.990 --> 0:42:18.350 Liz Palmer I was my family was liberal and I used to work at different. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:19.30 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:19.100 --> 0:42:19.420 Liz Palmer I used to. 0:42:21.660 --> 0:42:25.700 Liz Palmer Work at, you know, different times when they were elections and stuff. 0:42:26.620 --> 0:42:27.590 Liz Palmer I was part of that. 0:42:27.740 --> 0:42:35.160 Liz Palmer I used to go to meetings, political meetings and stuff like that, but it was never John Turner was who I worked for. 0:42:35.170 --> 0:42:41.280 Liz Palmer I think when one year, but he lost out to Pierre Trudeau senior, so that was different. 0:42:41.690 --> 0:42:44.30 Liz Palmer But anyway, so it was the again. 0:42:46.0 --> 0:42:47.670 Liz Palmer Different times, you know. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:48.550 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:42:48.620 --> 0:42:52.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there like an assumption that, like the government wasn't doing things correctly back then? 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:53.930 Liz Palmer Oh, no. 0:42:52.860 --> 0:42:54.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like when addressing these things, no. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:57.280 Philippe Alain Paradis OK. 0:42:53.940 --> 0:42:58.680 Liz Palmer No, no, no, no government could do no wrong in those days in our household anyway. 0:43:2.550 --> 0:43:20.280 Philippe Alain Paradis Alright, so for the this next section, cultural historians have argued that introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:43:20.590 --> 0:43:22.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Do you agree with that statement? 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:25.470 Liz Palmer Ohh, absolutely absolutely yes. 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.420 Liz Palmer Yes, with the pill you could do whatever you want and you didn't have to worry about getting pregnant, right? 0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:33.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:34.950 Philippe Alain Paradis That must have been a huge change. 0:43:37.10 --> 0:43:38.870 Liz Palmer Yes and no. 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:39.120 Philippe Alain Paradis Compared to. 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.270 Liz Palmer I mean it compared to before, probably, yeah. 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.70 Liz Palmer But the pill had always been available. 0:43:45.870 --> 0:43:50.120 Liz Palmer I mean, even though I went to a Catholic girls school, we all knew about the pill. 0:43:50.130 --> 0:43:51.400 Liz Palmer My mother was very good about. 0:43:53.940 --> 0:43:58.150 Liz Palmer Uh, you know, teaching us the sex education schools didn't do it in those days. 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:5.310 Liz Palmer Like, I mean, your parents did it, but my parents were very open about things and they were very good about that. 0:44:5.320 --> 0:44:9.190 Liz Palmer So we we knew about those things, but of course we were allowed to take it right. 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:12.0 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:9.200 --> 0:44:13.460 Liz Palmer And of course, there was no sex before marriage and all that other kind of stuff. 0:44:13.470 --> 0:44:15.120 Liz Palmer But that all changed. 0:44:17.130 --> 0:44:20.790 Philippe Alain Paradis And what did dating look like at Yowa during the 1970s? 0:44:22.890 --> 0:44:23.820 Liz Palmer But how do you mean? 0:44:23.830 --> 0:44:26.400 Liz Palmer Just ohh guys got. 0:44:23.500 --> 0:44:27.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, I'm just like, yeah, very generally speaking. 0:44:28.110 --> 0:44:29.320 Liz Palmer Oh, just guys. 0:44:29.330 --> 0:44:30.110 Liz Palmer Ask girls out. 0:44:31.300 --> 0:44:31.980 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:44:33.790 --> 0:44:35.320 Liz Palmer You would go for coffee. 0:44:35.330 --> 0:44:37.700 Liz Palmer There were the coffee go to movies. 0:44:43.270 --> 0:44:43.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:39.350 --> 0:44:44.660 Liz Palmer Nobody had any money, so nobody really went out to dinner unless you went out with someone who was older. 0:44:45.110 --> 0:44:49.220 Liz Palmer So you would go to concerts, you'd go to movies, you'd go to parties together. 0:44:49.670 --> 0:44:50.720 Liz Palmer You know, that kind of thing? 0:44:51.890 --> 0:44:52.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Just. 0:44:50.810 --> 0:44:53.200 Liz Palmer Yeah, pretty normal stuff, yeah. 0:44:53.990 --> 0:44:54.300 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:44:54.310 --> 0:44:54.830 Philippe Alain Paradis That reminds me. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.970 Philippe Alain Paradis Like what you were saying earlier? 0:44:58.300 --> 0:44:59.180 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah. 0:44:55.980 --> 0:44:59.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Like you do a lot of really casual things and just like normal. 0:45:0.980 --> 0:45:1.220 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:44:59.720 --> 0:45:3.340 Philippe Alain Paradis Hang out and yeah, and then your parents had their views on it. 0:45:5.170 --> 0:45:5.740 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:45:4.640 --> 0:45:6.590 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:45:5.790 --> 0:45:6.840 Liz Palmer What is this father do? 0:45:6.850 --> 0:45:7.860 Liz Palmer And where does he go to church? 0:45:7.960 --> 0:45:9.240 Liz Palmer I've no clue. 0:45:8.870 --> 0:45:9.920 Philippe Alain Paradis I haven't even met him. 0:45:9.250 --> 0:45:10.20 Liz Palmer I don't know. 0:45:9.970 --> 0:45:10.620 Philippe Alain Paradis I don't know his name. 0:45:10.230 --> 0:45:13.870 Liz Palmer I will he be live in Montreal? 0:45:14.20 --> 0:45:15.850 Liz Palmer Because a lot of people came to Ottawa. 0:45:15.860 --> 0:45:17.950 Liz Palmer You from a lot of different places, right? 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:18.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:31.120 Liz Palmer So because they had programs there that didn't have any other places, so there were lots of and and the other thing too is that it was thought that was the easy to get into Ottawa because they always were looking for students. 0:45:32.20 --> 0:45:32.230 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:45:32.90 --> 0:45:37.310 Liz Palmer But then of course, my sister went to Saint Paths, which was a separate college. 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.300 Liz Palmer But then became part of Carlton. 0:45:40.90 --> 0:45:47.90 Liz Palmer But then, of course, he always disparage Carlton because they were just the, you know, anybody could get into Carlton. 0:45:49.540 --> 0:45:50.500 Liz Palmer So yes. 0:45:50.190 --> 0:45:50.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:45:50.690 --> 0:45:59.180 Philippe Alain Paradis And was it ever look down on, like just dating casually, like amongst just just the younger people, just the uottawa? 0:45:59.710 --> 0:46:1.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Or was it just totally normal? 0:46:1.900 --> 0:46:4.30 Liz Palmer Ohh it's not you mean what do you mean dating? 0:46:7.880 --> 0:46:8.120 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:46:4.630 --> 0:46:8.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, yeah, like some parents might not approve of, like their kids going around and dating it. 0:46:8.480 --> 0:46:8.860 Philippe Alain Paradis You Ottawa. 0:46:8.870 --> 0:46:10.320 Philippe Alain Paradis But amongst students, was it. 0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:11.390 Liz Palmer Oh, it's not. 0:46:10.330 --> 0:46:12.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it frowned upon at all? No. 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:12.930 Liz Palmer No, no, not at all. 0:46:12.940 --> 0:46:13.680 Liz Palmer Day dating was. 0:46:14.730 --> 0:46:16.360 Liz Palmer Well, that's how you got to meet people, right? 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.80 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 0:46:18.170 --> 0:46:19.490 Philippe Alain Paradis Like just relationships and stuff. 0:46:19.500 --> 0:46:21.160 Philippe Alain Paradis That was just it was just normal. 0:46:21.720 --> 0:46:22.450 Liz Palmer Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:46:29.550 --> 0:46:29.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:46:22.460 --> 0:46:31.760 Liz Palmer I mean, I think my sister in law put it when you went to university to to earn your Mrs right and your misses like to find your husband, right? 0:46:31.770 --> 0:46:32.300 Liz Palmer Your Mrs? 0:46:32.270 --> 0:46:33.770 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. Yeah. 0:46:41.380 --> 0:46:41.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:44.670 Liz Palmer Well, that's, I guess that was kind of what it was like, but I mean, no, everybody just dated and and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't, you know. 0:46:47.20 --> 0:46:49.610 Philippe Alain Paradis How did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:46:49.620 --> 0:46:50.530 Philippe Alain Paradis Was there any like? 0:46:50.820 --> 0:46:56.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Did they ever really like challenge those notions or discuss it or yeah. 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:4.850 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, I think a lot of younger women because of the pill and because of the changing morays of the time. 0:47:4.860 --> 0:47:12.950 Liz Palmer You could you could have a relationship with someone you could move in, but you didn't have to get married, and that was a huge deal for a lot of girls. 0:47:13.20 --> 0:47:15.880 Liz Palmer And a lot of women guys, of course, were happy with that. 0:47:18.350 --> 0:47:18.530 Liz Palmer But. 0:47:21.460 --> 0:47:28.630 Liz Palmer I think in the end they're probably more after we graduated that happened, I would find. 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:33.580 Liz Palmer But because when we were at school, nobody, as I said, nobody had any money like so. 0:47:33.590 --> 0:47:37.150 Liz Palmer Certainly my friends in my class, most people didn't have a lot of money. 0:47:37.460 --> 0:47:45.150 Liz Palmer So, you know, we were living at home or we were, you know, living on campus or you were living in an apartment with two or three other people. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.600 Liz Palmer So you were scrimping and saving, so it was. 0:47:50.700 --> 0:47:51.990 Liz Palmer It was kind of different. 0:47:54.660 --> 0:48:2.310 Liz Palmer So yeah, I guess the the fact that you didn't have to get married anymore was the that that was a huge deal. 0:48:3.70 --> 0:48:3.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:2.960 --> 0:48:5.680 Liz Palmer That was a huge deal at the time and I think that made a difference. 0:48:6.600 --> 0:48:9.880 Liz Palmer Umm, because you didn't really need to. 0:48:12.820 --> 0:48:20.220 Liz Palmer Uh, you didn't really need to worry about getting married, cause all of a sudden you didn't really need to get married. 0:48:21.550 --> 0:48:26.350 Liz Palmer But still, having kids without a partner, I always felt was very difficult cause. 0:48:28.390 --> 0:48:29.370 Liz Palmer Kids are a lot of work. 0:48:30.270 --> 0:48:30.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, yeah. 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:33.360 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:48:32.490 --> 0:48:36.690 Liz Palmer I take a lot out of the you need two people to do that or or a village to raise a child, yes. 0:48:35.260 --> 0:48:38.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, for sure. Right. 0:48:38.300 --> 0:48:41.930 Philippe Alain Paradis So like just the notion of like, do you like having to get married and stuff? 0:48:41.940 --> 0:48:46.730 Philippe Alain Paradis It was looked at like more practically, if at times by younger people, yeah. 0:48:45.750 --> 0:48:47.170 Liz Palmer Yeah, it was it. 0:48:47.210 --> 0:48:49.660 Liz Palmer There was no notion of having to get married anymore. 0:48:49.470 --> 0:48:49.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:49.670 --> 0:48:50.280 Liz Palmer You got married. 0:48:50.290 --> 0:48:54.110 Liz Palmer If you wanted to, and if you wanted, if you wanted to, that was great. 0:48:56.370 --> 0:48:56.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.380 Liz Palmer But if you didn't want to, you didn't have to, which was fine too, yeah. 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:57.690 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:48:58.610 --> 0:48:59.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:48:59.670 --> 0:49:15.910 Philippe Alain Paradis And just before I move on to the last section, do you like, do you think that like just regarding all of these things and and just general attitudes, behavior and stuff on campus, do you think like movies and music and stuff influence like people's behavior a lot? 0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Like maybe like rock becoming popular a little later. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.870 Liz Palmer Ohh. 0:49:18.810 --> 0:49:25.250 Philippe Alain Paradis And did you ever see like the impact of like media on people and their behavior on campus at all? 0:49:26.670 --> 0:49:27.580 Philippe Alain Paradis It's gonna make but. 0:49:33.390 --> 0:49:33.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:49:30.330 --> 0:49:34.120 Liz Palmer Yes, music in particular, music. 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:34.940 Liz Palmer Governed. 0:49:35.110 --> 0:49:35.320 Liz Palmer Who? 0:49:35.330 --> 0:49:37.400 Liz Palmer Your friends were where you went. 0:49:37.460 --> 0:49:44.370 Liz Palmer The concerts you went to, the books you read, the group she belonged to. Uh. 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.270 Liz Palmer Disco was part of it, but then I was far more at. 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.670 Liz Palmer At one point I was far more into umm. 0:49:58.620 --> 0:50:0.420 Liz Palmer It's sort of the coffee house scene. 0:50:1.90 --> 0:50:1.990 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:50:2.910 --> 0:50:10.620 Liz Palmer And all those, all that kind of sort of stuff, we were far more hip than the people that went to do disco. 0:50:12.470 --> 0:50:14.190 Liz Palmer We thought we were like, put it that way. 0:50:15.940 --> 0:50:17.190 Liz Palmer We were that we were smarter. 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.910 Liz Palmer You know, we've always thought we were better than the rest, but I mean, we were just stupid. 0:50:21.300 --> 0:50:23.860 Liz Palmer But umm, it was. 0:50:25.540 --> 0:50:32.540 Liz Palmer I think it really led into how you lived, who, where you went, who your friends were. 0:50:40.670 --> 0:50:41.30 Philippe Alain Paradis Wow. 0:50:33.830 --> 0:50:42.910 Liz Palmer As I said, the books you read the the opinions you held and who and in the end who you ended up voting for too, it was, you know, so it it. 0:50:42.980 --> 0:50:43.330 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:50:43.340 --> 0:51:8.20 Liz Palmer Because you know, if it was, it's as I got older, I got more and more into the into the political stuff because you you always, you know, sort of became aware as time went on as of how who you voted for in the election would affect how much money was going to education or healthcare or you know the what was going into you know whatever was affecting the world at that time but umm. 0:51:10.90 --> 0:51:14.360 Liz Palmer Yeah, I think I think there was certainly a correlation in there for sure. 0:51:14.580 --> 0:51:20.480 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, that that's interesting because you named basically every facet of like what makes someone and like an individual, right? 0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:20.860 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:23.540 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:51:20.490 --> 0:51:28.40 Philippe Alain Paradis Like their opinions, they're the people they hung around with that then all of that, like music, had a pardon. Hmm. 0:51:25.750 --> 0:51:40.0 Liz Palmer And and movies were a big thing, too, because we got very snotty about about watching French films, and I'm I learned, I I I started to smoke when I was at university, cause everybody smoked and it ought to be you. 0:51:40.10 --> 0:51:40.490 Liz Palmer You smoke? 0:51:40.500 --> 0:51:42.180 Liz Palmer God was in Japan, right? 0:51:42.190 --> 0:51:43.220 Liz Palmer The French cigarettes. 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:44.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:47.960 Liz Palmer So anything French became very ohkura very. 0:51:51.220 --> 0:51:54.850 Philippe Alain Paradis Right trends and stuff, but that could all that. Mm-hmm. 0:51:49.910 --> 0:51:55.420 Liz Palmer In very if you want trend trend, yes, trendy. 0:51:55.490 --> 0:51:59.320 Liz Palmer And if you wanted to be, quote unquote, one of the cool kids, this is what you did. 0:51:59.330 --> 0:52:1.860 Liz Palmer So you wore certain clothing you. 0:52:3.900 --> 0:52:6.810 Liz Palmer You went to certain places, you went to certain clubs, you. 0:52:7.670 --> 0:52:10.700 Liz Palmer Uh, you spoke French or you didn't? 0:52:10.710 --> 0:52:12.840 Liz Palmer Or or you pretended you did. 0:52:12.850 --> 0:52:18.640 Liz Palmer Or, you know, whatever it it did affect your it did affect your life at one point. 0:52:19.420 --> 0:52:19.650 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:19.250 --> 0:52:21.770 Liz Palmer So yeah, I would say definitely. 0:52:21.780 --> 0:52:26.670 Liz Palmer And and movies from the states, I mean, you had you had Deer Hunter you had. 0:52:28.350 --> 0:52:28.970 Liz Palmer Taxi. 0:52:33.820 --> 0:52:34.150 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:52:28.980 --> 0:52:37.40 Liz Palmer You had all those other movies that came in to being at like I Love films, so that was something that I really like to to to do. 0:52:37.490 --> 0:52:41.620 Liz Palmer But in a place like Ottawa, there weren't a lot of, you know. 0:52:43.430 --> 0:52:46.860 Liz Palmer Films that came out that that were anything. 0:52:46.930 --> 0:52:48.450 Liz Palmer The what was it the? 0:52:51.70 --> 0:52:57.210 Liz Palmer And I forget that the theater on Queen Street Bank and Queen forget. 0:52:57.220 --> 0:52:58.300 Liz Palmer I think it was called the realtor. 0:52:58.370 --> 0:52:59.210 Liz Palmer No, it wasn't that. 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:1.50 Liz Palmer Forget what it was called anyway. 0:53:1.660 --> 0:53:4.30 Liz Palmer They would have foreign films come in. 0:53:4.40 --> 0:53:8.760 Liz Palmer So you'd have foreign film festivals or you go to Montreal to see movies and stuff like that too. 0:53:9.920 --> 0:53:10.570 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.20 Philippe Alain Paradis So this final section is totally optional. 0:53:14.580 --> 0:53:21.590 Philippe Alain Paradis There's a disclaimer that comes with it because it it's a it's a very, very sensitive topic, so if I'll read this claimer and you just have to say yes or no. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.300 Philippe Alain Paradis And if you say no, I won't ask any questions and that'll be it for the interview. 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:26.160 Liz Palmer Umm. 0:53:26.80 --> 0:53:32.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm, OK, so this glimmer is the following section is optional and concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:53:32.580 --> 0:53:39.90 Philippe Alain Paradis We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:53:39.300 --> 0:53:43.470 Philippe Alain Paradis You may choose to not answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:53:45.170 --> 0:53:47.650 Liz Palmer I'm fine with that. Yep. 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:53.250 Philippe Alain Paradis OK, so many universities today have been, uh, forced to police sexual harassment. 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.640 Philippe Alain Paradis To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:54:1.450 --> 0:54:2.530 Liz Palmer I don't think they did anything. 0:54:4.980 --> 0:54:5.500 Liz Palmer Why would they? 0:54:6.650 --> 0:54:8.960 Philippe Alain Paradis Did did you see it as much of an issue back then? 0:54:8.970 --> 0:54:12.130 Philippe Alain Paradis Like, were there rumors circulating or like, people getting caught? 0:54:12.500 --> 0:54:12.850 Philippe Alain Paradis No. 0:54:12.730 --> 0:54:13.610 Liz Palmer No, no. 0:54:13.800 --> 0:54:17.860 Philippe Alain Paradis So it must have been like pretty like hush hush if yeah. 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 Liz Palmer If it happened, we didn't hear about it. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.70 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm wow. 0:54:20.500 --> 0:54:21.780 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way, yeah. 0:54:21.80 --> 0:54:26.890 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah, because I like I have seen stats and so I was like, I have seen people seen stats and stuff and it seems that it was it was quite it. 0:54:26.900 --> 0:54:29.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It turns out like now we know that it was quite prevalent. 0:54:29.490 --> 0:54:33.310 Philippe Alain Paradis So it's interesting to hear that it was kept like you know. 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:36.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:54:32.930 --> 0:54:38.270 Liz Palmer I think you have to look at the times from the perspective of the times. 0:54:39.770 --> 0:54:43.520 Liz Palmer Nowadays, women get all upset because the guy whistles at them on the street. 0:54:44.10 --> 0:54:44.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:45.340 --> 0:54:46.650 Liz Palmer No big deal in my day. 0:54:47.240 --> 0:54:47.820 Liz Palmer So what? 0:54:48.430 --> 0:54:49.70 Philippe Alain Paradis If you. 0:54:48.260 --> 0:54:50.510 Liz Palmer So good, I appreciate what you looked like. 0:54:50.990 --> 0:54:51.290 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:54:50.580 --> 0:54:54.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays someone will go hearing off to the police saying, Oh my God, he whistled at me. 0:54:56.530 --> 0:54:56.880 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 0:54:56.310 --> 0:54:58.690 Liz Palmer That's harassment in some women's. 0:55:0.560 --> 0:55:4.490 Liz Palmer You know and and fair enough if they feel harassed and that then that's it. 0:55:4.840 --> 0:55:6.440 Liz Palmer But in our day, that was not a deal. 0:55:7.220 --> 0:55:9.790 Philippe Alain Paradis If you applied, I'll put A twist on the question. 0:55:9.990 --> 0:55:10.210 Liz Palmer Yeah. 0:55:16.90 --> 0:55:18.100 Liz Palmer Oh yeah, they're probably was there. 0:55:18.230 --> 0:55:19.80 Liz Palmer It was there. 0:55:9.960 --> 0:55:19.590 Philippe Alain Paradis If you apply just just for fun, if you applied today's standards of sexual harassment, what would it would have been bad, yeah. 0:55:22.300 --> 0:55:22.570 Philippe Alain Paradis And. 0:55:19.150 --> 0:55:28.20 Liz Palmer I would I remember being on the bus and a man sitting really close to me like and pushing me like coming right close to me. 0:55:28.110 --> 0:55:30.130 Liz Palmer That's harassment as far as I'm concerned. 0:55:30.590 --> 0:55:34.900 Liz Palmer I got up, stepped on his foot, got off the bus. 0:55:36.390 --> 0:55:38.730 Liz Palmer So never reported it. 0:55:39.850 --> 0:55:41.700 Liz Palmer That happened all the time. 0:55:42.370 --> 0:55:42.660 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:55:41.950 --> 0:55:43.390 Liz Palmer If you were young woman, yeah. 0:55:44.940 --> 0:55:45.210 Liz Palmer I'm. 0:55:45.220 --> 0:55:46.770 Liz Palmer I'm not gonna say all the time, but it happened. 0:55:47.190 --> 0:55:47.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:55:46.780 --> 0:55:48.330 Liz Palmer It happened a lot. 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:52.980 Liz Palmer There were, but As for me, I was never. 0:55:56.170 --> 0:56:0.550 Liz Palmer I was never a victim of that type of harassment. 0:56:0.560 --> 0:56:1.430 Liz Palmer Let's put it that way. 0:56:1.440 --> 0:56:5.470 Liz Palmer Like anything that that these days, women would complain about. 0:56:5.480 --> 0:56:9.920 Liz Palmer I mean, yeah, some guy would punch your pinch your bottom or something. 0:56:12.420 --> 0:56:13.370 Liz Palmer So no big deal. 0:56:14.170 --> 0:56:14.620 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:13.780 --> 0:56:18.830 Liz Palmer I mean, that's just, that's just what happened and that's how it was thought of in those days. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:19.970 Liz Palmer Nowadays it's not. 0:56:19.980 --> 0:56:20.730 Liz Palmer It's different. 0:56:20.860 --> 0:56:21.180 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:27.870 Liz Palmer My daughter, would you know, she she would probably, Umm, report somebody who did that. 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.350 Liz Palmer But in my day it was part of the culture. 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.950 Liz Palmer If you can put it that way, I mean, I'm not saying it's right. 0:56:32.300 --> 0:56:34.740 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm it, yeah. 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:36.880 Liz Palmer I'm just saying that that's that's the way it was. 0:56:36.890 --> 0:56:41.560 Liz Palmer That's that's what guys did and I grew up in working class neighborhoods. 0:56:42.770 --> 0:56:44.250 Philippe Alain Paradis There's normalized totally. 0:56:41.570 --> 0:56:45.670 Liz Palmer So there was it was exactly. 0:56:47.570 --> 0:56:47.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:56:45.740 --> 0:56:48.500 Liz Palmer That's a very good way to put it was normalized, so yeah. 0:56:47.950 --> 0:56:50.200 Philippe Alain Paradis So it wasn't even viewed as a problem that needed fixing. 0:56:50.210 --> 0:56:52.480 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just how? Wow. 0:56:52.30 --> 0:56:54.300 Liz Palmer It's just the way some men are stupid. 0:56:54.770 --> 0:56:55.660 Liz Palmer That's the way they are. 0:56:55.830 --> 0:56:56.440 Liz Palmer You didn't. 0:56:56.450 --> 0:57:2.600 Liz Palmer You didn't have anything to do with those guys, but you know my my mom used to make it very clear. 0:57:2.610 --> 0:57:3.440 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:3.570 --> 0:57:4.290 Liz Palmer You just ignore it. 0:57:5.350 --> 0:57:5.800 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:57:6.60 --> 0:57:6.300 Liz Palmer OK. 0:57:5.930 --> 0:57:11.580 Philippe Alain Paradis And our yeah, our generation is interested in a like in a free love movement. 0:57:11.670 --> 0:57:17.380 Philippe Alain Paradis What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in the 1970s? 0:57:17.390 --> 0:57:21.640 Philippe Alain Paradis Was it viewed negatively accepted or like literally encouraged? 0:57:21.650 --> 0:57:23.560 Philippe Alain Paradis Or like amongst the. 0:57:22.730 --> 0:57:23.700 Liz Palmer Was accepted. 0:57:24.50 --> 0:57:24.940 Liz Palmer It was accepted. 0:57:24.950 --> 0:57:29.0 Liz Palmer I meet most of the girls in in my class had boyfriends and. 0:57:31.230 --> 0:57:31.470 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:31.170 --> 0:57:32.480 Liz Palmer They all went to bed together. 0:57:32.490 --> 0:57:33.40 Liz Palmer I mean, it was. 0:57:34.550 --> 0:57:34.760 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:33.50 --> 0:57:35.260 Liz Palmer No, it was accepted. 0:57:35.270 --> 0:57:35.600 Liz Palmer It was. 0:57:35.610 --> 0:57:38.680 Liz Palmer It was your choice if you wanted to, umm. 0:57:42.890 --> 0:57:43.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:39.330 --> 0:57:50.660 Liz Palmer As it as of whether they were pressured, I don't know what was never brought up as as an issue like I never knew anybody who was upset by the fact that some guy had pressured. 0:57:50.710 --> 0:57:52.840 Liz Palmer I mean, there were guys that were stupid enough to. 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:53.870 Philippe Alain Paradis Umm. 0:57:54.830 --> 0:57:56.720 Liz Palmer Think that you know you didn't talk to each other. 0:57:56.730 --> 0:57:57.420 Liz Palmer There was one guy. 0:57:58.810 --> 0:58:1.370 Liz Palmer He was in law and he was a football player. 0:58:2.410 --> 0:58:7.520 Liz Palmer He was going out with a girl in my class and he called me up and asked me out on a date and I said ohh great and I. 0:58:7.530 --> 0:58:9.420 Liz Palmer But aren't you going out with so and so's? 0:58:9.430 --> 0:58:11.340 Liz Palmer Ohh no, no, no, no, that's all over. 0:58:12.870 --> 0:58:12.990 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:11.690 --> 0:58:18.330 Liz Palmer So I find out later because no one's talking to me in my class, that she found out that he was going out. 0:58:18.340 --> 0:58:22.810 Liz Palmer He went out with me and I said, well, he told me that you two would split up. 0:58:22.890 --> 0:58:23.550 Liz Palmer We haven't. 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:24.710 Liz Palmer I didn't know that. 0:58:25.180 --> 0:58:28.590 Liz Palmer Well, that was the end of that from both sides. 0:58:29.300 --> 0:58:38.250 Liz Palmer But I mean so there was always that kind of stuff that was going on, but he was a I mean we only ever got to the point of going out for a meal or something. 0:58:38.260 --> 0:58:42.270 Liz Palmer And then I'm sure he he wanted to take a further, but there was no. 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:45.370 Liz Palmer But then my friend found out. 0:58:46.940 --> 0:58:47.140 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:45.380 --> 0:58:48.750 Liz Palmer And then, of course, then the whole class just turned on him, and that was that. 0:58:48.820 --> 0:58:49.590 Liz Palmer But I mean there. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:50.860 Liz Palmer So that kind of thing happened. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:54.20 Liz Palmer But that's just the kind of thing that happened to me. 0:58:59.100 --> 0:59:0.240 Philippe Alain Paradis That was your experience. 0:59:0.250 --> 0:59:0.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 0:58:54.30 --> 0:59:1.50 Liz Palmer There might have been other things that happened to other women, but I don't know of any of them. Yeah. 0:59:1.70 --> 0:59:8.30 Philippe Alain Paradis And and just casual relationships like that, like they there was, there wasn't much judgment going around regarding that type of thing. 0:59:8.310 --> 0:59:9.40 Liz Palmer Oh no mate. 0:59:8.440 --> 0:59:13.810 Philippe Alain Paradis Like if a woman went with a lot of guys like it wasn't as or, you know, not not to your knowledge. 0:59:13.130 --> 0:59:15.91 Liz Palmer Well, I have to say I i.e. 0:59:15.870 --> 0:59:20.380 Liz Palmer My sister was going out with somebody and their first boyfriend. 0:59:20.390 --> 0:59:21.660 Liz Palmer She's still married to him. 0:59:21.750 --> 0:59:22.890 Liz Palmer 50 some odd years later. 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:30.160 Liz Palmer And he used to say to me, well, you know, you should get a boyfriend. 0:59:30.170 --> 0:59:31.860 Liz Palmer And I said, well, why would I want a boyfriend? 0:59:31.870 --> 0:59:33.340 Liz Palmer I'm meeting all these nice men. 0:59:34.310 --> 0:59:36.970 Liz Palmer We're going out to concerts and I mean nothing ever happened. 0:59:37.810 --> 0:59:39.660 Liz Palmer Uh, but I just didn't find. 0:59:43.830 --> 0:59:44.90 Philippe Alain Paradis Right. 0:59:39.670 --> 0:59:45.300 Liz Palmer You know, there was just nobody I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with at that point, and that was so, so. 0:59:45.310 --> 0:59:49.740 Liz Palmer But he would, you know, that was from his perspective is that you should have one guy and only go up with one guy. 0:59:49.750 --> 0:59:53.580 Liz Palmer Well, I didn't feel that necessity and I didn't hadn't met the right person. 0:59:53.590 --> 0:59:55.840 Liz Palmer So, so that was different so. 0:59:59.130 --> 1:0:3.300 Liz Palmer But most of the most of my good friends, we all dated lots of different people. 1:0:3.670 --> 1:0:5.860 Liz Palmer We didn't sleep with them, but we dated them. 1:0:6.390 --> 1:0:6.610 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:6.30 --> 1:0:8.440 Liz Palmer Some of them may have slept with them, but I, you know, I didn't. 1:0:9.300 --> 1:0:9.540 Philippe Alain Paradis Mm-hmm. 1:0:9.590 --> 1:0:10.820 Liz Palmer So that was just me. 1:0:10.870 --> 1:0:14.680 Liz Palmer But then the other thing is is I lived at home, so there was no. 1:0:14.810 --> 1:0:18.380 Liz Palmer That was another big, huge problem for a lot of guys, too. 1:0:19.220 --> 1:0:20.270 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:0:20.990 --> 1:0:25.770 Philippe Alain Paradis And I imagine what did members of your parents generation to worry about premarital sex a lot. 1:0:26.180 --> 1:0:26.400 Philippe Alain Paradis Ohh. 1:0:26.110 --> 1:0:27.980 Liz Palmer Ohh yeah, they were terrified of it. 1:0:26.410 --> 1:0:28.900 Philippe Alain Paradis Like. Yeah. Yeah. 1:0:28.30 --> 1:0:29.360 Liz Palmer Absolutely terrified of it, yes. 1:0:31.30 --> 1:0:31.680 Philippe Alain Paradis Yeah. 1:0:31.730 --> 1:0:35.720 Philippe Alain Paradis So like, it sounds like amongst the younger people, it just wasn't much of a thought. 1:0:40.920 --> 1:0:42.170 Liz Palmer Most of, yeah. 1:0:35.730 --> 1:0:42.860 Philippe Alain Paradis It was just normal and OK and but the older crowd that was it was like not there was tension there probably. Umm. 1:0:42.260 --> 1:0:47.290 Liz Palmer Most of our parents felt that it was, you know, premarital sex was just not cause. 1:0:47.360 --> 1:0:53.330 Liz Palmer Most of my friends were Catholic or came from religious or Protestant Jewish families. 1:0:53.750 --> 1:0:56.420 Liz Palmer So you didn't even talk about premarital sex. 1:0:56.430 --> 1:1:5.560 Liz Palmer But but in our generation like that, I mean, I know there were girls that that slept around, but it was no big deal. 1:1:5.570 --> 1:1:6.780 Liz Palmer Like, I mean it wasn't. 1:1:9.330 --> 1:1:9.700 Philippe Alain Paradis Hmm. 1:1:7.470 --> 1:1:10.460 Liz Palmer We didn't look down on them or think any less of them. 1:1:10.470 --> 1:1:11.520 Liz Palmer I mean, that was their choice. 1:1:12.900 --> 1:1:13.330 Philippe Alain Paradis Interesting. 1:1:12.550 --> 1:1:18.440 Liz Palmer But that was also part of the feminist movement at the time, because that was your choice to sleep with whomever you wanted. 1:1:19.550 --> 1:1:20.410 Philippe Alain Paradis Right, right. 1:1:20.360 --> 1:1:20.520 Liz Palmer Yeah. 1:1:20.420 --> 1:1:22.820 Philippe Alain Paradis So yeah, alright, I've done. 1:1:22.830 --> 1:1:24.110 Philippe Alain Paradis That's every question. 1:1:24.120 --> 1:1:25.660 Philippe Alain Paradis I'll I'll stop the recording real quick. 1:1:26.160 --> 1:1:26.360 Liz Palmer Mm-hmm. Transcription Translation 0:0:13.260 --> 0:0:28.940 Philippe Alain Paradis Pour la première question, les historiens de la culture ont soutenu que la télévision, Hollywood, la musique populaire et la culture de consommation autour de l'automobile ont créé une culture populaire nord-américaine plus intégrée. 0:0:30.50 --> 0:0:37.920 Philippe Alain Paradis Ottawa a une institution bilingue et nous voulons mieux comprendre comment les anglophones et les francophones se sont rapprochés. 0:0:39.50 --> 0:0:44.50 Philippe Alain Paradis Donc la première question serait qu'il y avait moins d'électronique au Canada dans les années 70. 0:0:45.700 --> 0:0:46.220 Liz Palmer Pas du tout. 0:0:48.410 --> 0:0:53.390 Philippe Alain Paradis Alors, comment était structuré votre temps libre ou que faisaient les étudiants d'Ottawa pour s'amuser dans les années 70 ? 0:1:1.570 --> 0:1:4.120 Liz Palmer Eh bien, nous allions au pub après l'école. 0:1:4.130 --> 0:1:6.950 Liz Palmer Je suis sûre que c'est encore le cas aujourd'hui, mais il y avait... 0:1:14.60 --> 0:1:15.870 Liz Palmer On allait voir mon père, on riait. 0:1:15.880 --> 0:1:21.130 Liz Palmer Nous allions à la bibliothèque tous les soirs et après la fermeture de la bibliothèque, parce que j'étudiais les soins infirmiers. 0:1:21.140 --> 0:1:27.210 Liz Palmer Nous allions donc à la bibliothèque médicale, puis à l'Albion, qui n'existe plus, je crois. 0:1:27.220 --> 0:1:30.830 Liz Palmer Il n'existe plus et nous y allions probablement presque tous les soirs. 0:1:31.120 --> 0:1:32.750 Liz Palmer Il y avait des danses. 0:1:34.100 --> 0:1:37.320 Liz Palmer Nous avons dirigé l'école d'infirmières. 0:1:38.910 --> 0:1:43.1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Palmer, Elizabeth Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Description An account of the resource Interview about life on campus in the University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including social life, and people's views during that time. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, 1:01:37 Language A language of the resource English 1970s Abortion Academics Bilingualism Campus Hangouts Campus Life Dances Drugs Feminism Gender Gender Disrcimination Generational Differences Marriage Nursing October Crisis Popular Music Sexuality University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lafrance, Elizabeth Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Turpin, Nicole Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario (Via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm Elizabeth Lafrance interviewing. Nicole Turpin, about the Life on campus project in the 70s. 0:0:12.980 --> 0:0:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:0:17.750 --> 0:0:20.560
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so one of the main themes that we're trying to like,
Um, delve into is the impact of popular culture, and so the main question for this part that we're trying to like get into is cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music, and a consumer culture around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. Ottawa was a bilingual institution, and we want to better understand how anglophones and francophones are related. Together. 0:0:52.680 --> 0:1:3.950
Elizabeth Lafrance
They were less at electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. How was your leisure time structured or what did you? What did you do with students do for fun and then 1970s? 0:1:5.580 --> 0:1:8.790
Nicole
I guess the biggest piece was we spent time together. 0:1:10.230 --> 0:1:14.940
Nicole
There was definitely a separation between the Francophones and the Anglophones. 0:1:16.360 --> 0:1:17.300
Nicole
In first year. 0:1:18.60 --> 0:1:23.300
Nicole
It was more because there was a lot of francophones that were coming from outside of Ottawa. 0:1:24.50 --> 0:1:26.590
Nicole
And did not speak a lot of English. 0:1:27.940 --> 0:1:44.670
Nicole
So there really was a big separation. I was actually in the middle because I came from Ottawa. I was completely bilingual and in sports because I had a fixed and kinesiology courses. 0:1:45.330 --> 0:2:1.190
Nicole
All sports, all the competitive sports, was mixed together. So there was a social circle that was created that didn't exist on campus part from sports. That's the sports part. 0:2:2.390 --> 0:2:2.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:2:2.370 --> 0:2:8.690
Nicole
So for there, that's what. That's where we hung around more and more with both Anglophone and Francophone. 0:2:11.910 --> 0:2:14.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
So did you not have a problem like? 0:2:14.750 --> 0:2:21.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Between each, like anglophone or francophone, where you completely in the middle? Or did you find yourself going to like one side? 0:2:22.140 --> 0:2:26.410
Nicole
Being a Franco Ontarian is very different than a quebecker. 0:2:27.360 --> 0:2:32.640
Nicole
And because I've lived all my life in a bilingual environment, most of my life. 0:2:52.680 --> 0:2:53.280
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:2:33.400 --> 0:3:3.690
Nicole
I was used to it and all of my friends that went to university with me from Ottawa, we would switch back and forth in French and English without even thinking about it. As soon as there was an anglophone in the group, we would switch all the English for that person because the anglophone never even had thought of thinking or talking in French. But the francophones we were all used to it. So that's how we worked. 0:3:4.890 --> 0:3:5.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:6.780 --> 0:3:12.340
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, what were the most popular hangout spots on and off of campus? 0:3:13.310 --> 0:3:13.690
Nicole
Again. 0:3:13.770 --> 0:3:15.420
Nicole
The first year was pretty quiet. 0:3:16.240 --> 0:3:39.300
Nicole
Residence was always a popular place and there was a room, a big room, a meeting room, and there was, I can't remember if there was alcohol on campus or not. I have no memory of that. But it was a big there. there was a lot of music and a lot of dancing, and there was always. You always started there as a group. 0:3:42.740 --> 0:3:43.360
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:3:40.580 --> 0:3:48.780
Nicole
But we were underage at that time, so it there was a lot less alcohol in those first years. 0:3:50.80 --> 0:4:4.370
Nicole
It's yet to be 21, so it was just kind of like in and out. And yes, there was alcohol everywhere, but it wasn't, you know, in a lot of places. We just aren't allowed to go. We couldn't get in. We looked too young. So that's thing. 0:4:6.720 --> 0:4:13.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
And when you like, we're graduating. Was it more like focused on alcohol? Like, whenever you'd hang out? 0:4:14.890 --> 0:4:16.110
Nicole
It depended on the group. 0:4:17.200 --> 0:4:22.950
Nicole
We, I hung around very much with the Sports Group, with the athletes. 0:4:23.650 --> 0:4:43.960
Nicole
So most people was mostly alcohol, but I, I knew some people who were completely into drugs as whatever you wanted was there on campus and some some people got really deep into it and even some of my friends that I knew and kind of stayed away from that. 0:4:45.20 --> 0:4:48.330
Nicole
But there was anything you wanted on campus. 0:4:49.360 --> 0:4:49.950
Nicole
Really was. 0:4:52.320 --> 0:4:56.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:4:57.180 --> 0:5:4.780
Nicole
Oh my God. All the time dancing really was something everybody did. Like you went somewhere and you dance. 0:5:14.120 --> 0:5:14.530
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:5:5.410 --> 0:5:26.930
Nicole
For hours and hours and hours. And you, you. You did it like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. You know you did it here every night and 1st year was quieter again. And I lived at home for the first year. So I, you know, of course, my parents were still controlling a little bit more. And I lived in Aylmer in that point. So it was far. 0:5:27.640 --> 0:5:49.960
Nicole
And so that was made a difference in first year. It was a lot quieter after that. I moved into an apartment in Sandy Hill. So that changed everything. I was living on my own with a couple of girlfriends, and life was a lot busier socially. There was always a party going on any night. There was always something for you. 0:5:51.180 --> 0:5:59.30
Nicole
On campus, around campus, the bars around the campus down in-in-the in the market, were always open. 0:6:0.10 --> 0:6:4.790
Nicole
And so yeah, depending on what you need to do that night, there was always something. 0:6:7.980 --> 0:6:20.230
Elizabeth Lafrance
UOttawa was a bilingual institution. How linguistically integrated was it during the 1970s. Did the Francophones and anglophones enrol in the same university courses and participate in the same clubs? 0:6:20.620 --> 0:6:22.580
Nicole
OK, so in those days. 0:6:23.420 --> 0:6:29.280
Nicole
Thou shall not cross that line. The courses were only in French and only in English. 0:6:30.10 --> 0:6:32.370
Nicole
I was actually the first student. 0:6:33.750 --> 0:6:48.260
Nicole
That thought that and I ended up sitting in the Dean's office and arguing the point. Why should I not be allowed to go into the French course? Or the English course, depending on which teacher or what time? 0:6:49.650 --> 0:6:54.360
Nicole
Work better for me. But you had to be bilingual to do that. 0:6:55.330 --> 0:7:0.350
Nicole
And I've got they let me do it. And it was not. 0:7:1.110 --> 0:7:7.260
Nicole
It was extremely rare where the courses were together at all. It really was two schools. 0:7:7.920 --> 0:7:10.280
Nicole
On one French side and one English side. 0:7:10.880 --> 0:7:18.730
Nicole
We did, however, socialize a lot together. As we got older and got to know each other. 0:7:20.380 --> 0:7:30.860
Nicole
But to start, it was very much the English type and very much the French type to the point when not where you started or when I was there, we had to do a language test. 0:7:32.310 --> 0:7:32.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:7:32.190 --> 0:7:33.470
Nicole
Or second language test. 0:7:34.200 --> 0:7:39.470
Nicole
And most people, the second language was much lower. 0:7:40.80 --> 0:7:45.740
Nicole
So you would take whatever level, but you were mandated to take a second language course. 0:7:47.190 --> 0:7:53.400
Nicole
I was a keener and being who I was and how I was, I came from a French private school. We were really very, very bilingual. I ended up taking the French sides French and the English sides English of Anthology of English verse, which was horrible. But that's how bilingual I was. 0:8:12.590 --> 0:8:12.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:12.430 --> 0:8:19.880
Nicole
But there was a lot of francophones who could, and anglophones who did not speak a word of the other language or barely. 0:8:21.150 --> 0:8:21.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:8:22.460 --> 0:8:27.420
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um did Anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:8:27.470 --> 0:8:29.710
Nicole
Ohhhhh the French girls are popular. 0:8:31.630 --> 0:8:39.830
Nicole
There's no question about that. And very quickly everybody started dating and we mixed very quickly. 0:8:41.120 --> 0:9:1.410
Nicole
We were all very close to both the groups, especially in in the groupings, because again, as I said, the sports were worked integrated. So we-we-we got to know each other a lot. It was not like that for a lot of other places. But in our department it really was mixed. 0:9:4.760 --> 0:9:7.750
Elizabeth Lafrance
So how did, like, you being a part of sport change your experince? 0:9:8.850 --> 0:9:15.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
Taking sports, like, change how you ,like, experienced university. 0:9:16.230 --> 0:9:19.480
Nicole
The sports how did it change? Where am I? 0:9:20.980 --> 0:9:21.740
Nicole
Uh. 0:9:21.350 --> 0:9:23.300
Elizabeth Lafrance
No, that was like that's all the script but. 0:9:23.230 --> 0:9:26.600
Nicole
Oh, it's not the- OK, how did I integrate? 0:9:27.580 --> 0:9:35.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
Or like how did you been a part of like sports clubs instead of change how, like your social life like was? 0:9:36.130 --> 0:9:39.330
Nicole
It was very different because I was so fluent. 0:9:40.910 --> 0:9:48.630
Nicole
So whatever sport I wanted to go into, it gravitated different sports gravitated different culture like different groupings, whether it was francophones for certain sports, like volleyball, it was francophone. 0:9:58.130 --> 0:10:0.510
Nicole
And basketball was anglophone. 0:10:1.190 --> 0:10:24.490
Nicole
That was their sports. And so again, I got to do both, but most of the others didn't. But because we were started getting to know each other so much in those sports, and there were others that everybody joined in and you would hear both languages running at the same time. And on the- in the same sentence. 0:10:25.680 --> 0:10:31.210
Nicole
As people got more and more integrated into each other, wanting to be social with each other. 0:10:32.140 --> 0:10:37.190
Nicole
And so that-that created a much more cultural group. 0:10:39.90 --> 0:10:39.820
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:10:41.260 --> 0:10:53.850
Elizabeth Lafrance
We used the term party culture to refer to the social activities outside the classroom. How would you describe the part the party culture on the University of Ottawa campus during the 1970s? 0:10:54.740 --> 0:10:56.110
Nicole
I have. It was wild. 0:10:57.170 --> 0:10:59.790
Nicole
It was. You have to realize that. 0:11:0.510 --> 0:11:17.380
Nicole
We had been wild. I was coming from private boarding school girls, private school for five years. No, four years. Sorry, that was crazy all of a sudden, it- and you were away from home. Most of half the groupings were in residence. 0:11:18.70 --> 0:11:18.600
Nicole
Um. 0:11:19.260 --> 0:11:19.590
Nicole
Yeah. 0:11:20.460 --> 0:11:22.810
Nicole
There was a a lot of- 0:11:23.710 --> 0:11:28.660
Nicole
Every night girls and boys, there were some heavy partying in those days. 0:11:30.170 --> 0:11:42.180
Nicole
And depending on how important your-your class and your report card or your marks was it, it changed. I mean there was this big crazy time and then everybody kind of. 0:11:42.890 --> 0:11:47.620
Nicole
Who bought a bit realized. Oh, wait a SEC. We actually have to go to classes and we actually have to. 0:11:48.230 --> 0:11:55.700
Nicole
Graduate. So there was this ebb and flow, but it was it really was, wild. Anything, everything. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:2.520
Nicole
And at the same time, it was the first generation of women who we went on the pill. 0:12:3.870 --> 0:12:4.300
Nicole
That. 0:12:4.50 --> 0:12:4.400
Elizabeth Lafrance
Hmm. 0:12:9.200 --> 0:12:10.10
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:12:12.230 --> 0:12:14.700
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did the student body think about the? 0:12:15.870 --> 0:12:16.190
Nicole
Review. 0:12:15.780 --> 0:12:16.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
Vietnam War. 0:12:17.90 --> 0:12:17.530
Nicole
Nothing. 0:12:18.350 --> 0:12:19.470
Nicole
It didn't exist. 0:12:20.290 --> 0:12:30.240
Nicole
You know what did it? Did it? It was barely mentioned. No interest was what was, though hugely was the FLQ and what that is. 0:12:32.850 --> 0:12:33.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:12:31.730 --> 0:12:33.780
Nicole
So that tends to back. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:35.910
Nicole
When we went into. 0:12:38.300 --> 0:12:45.560
Nicole
The FLQ took some English people and ended up they wanted to separate the-the-the province. 0:12:46.730 --> 0:12:53.500
Nicole
It was. It was violent. There's someone that was killed. You'll have to research that part. The FLQ. 0:12:54.170 --> 0:12:57.780
Nicole
That we talked about all the time because. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:4.30
Nicole
In grade12 and 13, when it happened, that's when I was in it. 0:13:4.690 --> 0:13:5.580
Nicole
We had. 0:13:6.330 --> 0:13:28.670
Nicole
Um students in our school that their parents were cabinet ministers and representatives, and we actually had RCMP on campus in our schools for weeks and months so that no one would be kidnapped or that there was no Violence. 0:13:29.370 --> 0:13:34.80
Nicole
But we lived through the FLQ, but Vietnam nothing. Not a word. 0:13:34.970 --> 0:13:38.0
Nicole
I have no memory of everybody talking about that part. 0:13:39.260 --> 0:13:40.190
Nicole
It was more the FLQ. 0:13:39.780 --> 0:13:40.260
Elizabeth Lafrance
So. 0:13:49.660 --> 0:13:52.820
Nicole
It it it warranted a lot of discussions. 0:13:53.510 --> 0:14:9.30
Nicole
It talked about the French identity, Canadian identity, how to integrate French and English. So we we had a lot of discussions with the Francophones and Anglophones talking about identity. 0:14:9.810 --> 0:14:11.740
Nicole
That we did a lot of discussions about. 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:16.390
Nicole
Um, but not nothing about the Vietnam War. 0:14:17.100 --> 0:14:20.60
Nicole
Not with that English French dynamic. 0:14:21.80 --> 0:14:21.620
Elizabeth Lafrance Hmm. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:36.840
Elizabeth Lafrance
Rock'n'roll artists in that 1960s had promoted various forms of protests. Did your, did your parents think of rock'n'roll as rebellious or just a form of popular music? 0:14:38.430 --> 0:14:41.120
Nicole
I was the eldest of seven kids. 0:14:41.980 --> 0:14:47.550
Nicole
And and so I was the first one that walked out the door kind of thing and started. 0:14:49.380 --> 0:14:50.640
Nicole
But they were very. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.850
Nicole
Confident about me as a person and I wasn't into drugs. 0:14:57.550 --> 0:14:58.660
Nicole
So they kind of. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:9.270
Nicole
I mean, they'd comment about it. I can remember my boyfriend at the time. His parents were appalled because he had started letting his hair grow, and that was like. 0:15:10.60 --> 0:15:14.30
Nicole
A huge challenge to parents was the boys having long hair. 0:15:15.0 --> 0:15:25.940
Nicole
When you think about it now it's hilarious. But in those days the boys hair was long and getting longer. That was absolutely the rock influence. 0:15:26.930 --> 0:15:32.400
Nicole
Not the big drug thing because like we skirted it, we didn't really get into it. 0:15:33.670 --> 0:15:39.410
Nicole
Our parents weren't as worried, but I know other parents were. They were definitely worried about it. 0:15:41.830 --> 0:15:44.510
Elizabeth Lafrance
So would you say that your parents were like, strict? 0:15:45.630 --> 0:15:45.920
Nicole
I'm. 0:15:50.890 --> 0:15:51.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:15:47.610 --> 0:15:52.40
Nicole
You have to remember when we're talking about, you know, expectations for children. 0:15:53.80 --> 0:16:4.880
Nicole
Pretty clear, but then I moved out so I only stayed a year with my parents and then I-I was gone after that they they had no say over me, really. I mean, I didn't. 0:16:6.160 --> 0:16:11.220
Nicole
I didn't change my behavior. I still saw them regularly. I still, you know, went over and. 0:16:12.380 --> 0:16:19.880
Nicole
Got fed as often as I could because I lived in the same city. I mean, I lived close. My parents were in in Alymer at that point, so. 0:16:20.570 --> 0:16:22.270
Nicole
It it wasn't as obvious. 0:16:27.660 --> 0:16:27.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:16:22.950 --> 0:16:38.400
Nicole
What did i do that they didn't have a clue what I was doing, really, you know? But they had my younger brother and sisters, they were already into it too. So they were concerned. But I think they trusted us to make good choices at the time. 0:16:41.150 --> 0:16:53.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, some youth culture voices in the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs. To what extent where recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.190
Nicole
Anything you wanted, you. 0:16:56.530 --> 0:17:9.370
Nicole
I know that I didn't. My sister got into heavy like, i’ll let you know, acid and everything she was into absolutely everything. And she could get it anyway she wanted. 0:17:10.250 --> 0:17:11.830
Nicole
It really was there. 0:17:12.810 --> 0:17:21.380
Nicole
But again, I didn't so, but I knew it was. And me and my husband always talked about. He was stoned during his university. He has no memory of. 0:17:22.130 --> 0:17:29.90
Nicole
Most of the University of the social, so it depended on what you were doing at the time. But yes, it was there. Absolutely. 0:17:34.460 --> 0:17:36.60
Elizabeth Lafrance
During the 1970s. 0:17:36.980 --> 0:17:51.780
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, and you don't have to answer this question, but during 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:17:52.260 --> 0:17:56.360
Nicole
I knew they were, but because I wasn't in it, I don't know. 0:17:58.340 --> 0:17:59.360
Nicole
I mean, I heard about it. 0:18:0.0 --> 0:18:5.330
Nicole
People talk about it, but I didn't do any of it, so I was afraid of drugs actually most. 0:18:5.990 --> 0:18:13.170
Nicole
Really was? I just didn't trust people. Just little Baggies walking around saying here, you know, I just didn't trust it. 0:18:14.130 --> 0:18:14.470
Nicole
So. 0:18:15.540 --> 0:18:18.370
Elizabeth Lafrance
But you were like around that kind of like culture. 0:18:18.150 --> 0:18:24.210
Nicole
Yes, sometimes I was, yeah. Depending on the party, there was always somebody that had a bad a baggie of something. 0:18:25.820 --> 0:18:27.0
Nicole
And you could always get it. 0:18:27.670 --> 0:18:28.180
Nicole
But. 0:18:29.270 --> 0:18:30.880
Nicole
Our group was pretty. 0:18:31.890 --> 0:18:34.530
Nicole
Quiet compared for the for drugs anyway. 0:18:35.950 --> 0:18:43.490
Nicole
So we just kind of stayed away from it and there was groups that that's all they did, they were always stoned in class and out of class. 0:18:44.260 --> 0:18:45.120
Nicole
They they were. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:19:1.200
Nicole
Fine, because I did take quite a lot of our classes outside of the Phys Ed department. Right? You still have sociology. You still had language. You still have other classes where we were mixed with other departments, and there was always somebody that was so gone. 0:19:1.830 --> 0:19:2.530
Nicole
Sat there and. 0:19:4.940 --> 0:19:5.170
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:19:4.350 --> 0:19:5.750
Nicole
Don't know why they were there, really. 0:19:11.360 --> 0:19:11.530
Nicole
Yeah. 0:19:9.190 --> 0:19:13.140
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is like the second section, the female experience. 0:19:14.630 --> 0:19:14.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Uh. 0:19:14.10 --> 0:19:16.960
Nicole
You don't have to read the whole question if you don't want to. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.500
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'll probably do it for like the transcript. 0:19:20.530 --> 0:19:22.0
Nicole
OK, it helps. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.730
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um cultural historians have written a lot about. 0:19:27.470 --> 0:19:44.800
Elizabeth Lafrance
What they call second wave feminism guy as per of the culture, cultural movement, women during the early 1970s sought to breakdown gender barriers. What does this argument resonate with your experience on the University of Ottawa campus during the early 70s? 0:19:49.430 --> 0:19:54.920
Nicole
The biggest change in our world, and it was massive really. 0:19:56.390 --> 0:20:0.640
Nicole
All of a sudden, all you need to do was take the pill, you didn't get Pregnant. 0:20:1.480 --> 0:20:7.10
Nicole
And that completely changed their lives as a group of women and. 0:20:7.920 --> 0:20:9.890
Nicole
Most of my friends, we were all in the pit. 0:20:11.780 --> 0:20:16.350
Nicole
And in those days, those pills could have worked on a horse. 0:20:17.260 --> 0:20:22.90
Nicole
And not getting pregnant. It was so, so strong it was. 0:20:23.270 --> 0:20:31.810
Nicole
Crazy the level of of hormones that they gave us in those initial wave of pills, but we took them. 0:20:32.740 --> 0:20:34.410
Nicole
And so. 0:20:35.260 --> 0:20:42.910
Nicole
We didn't hear as much about, you know, the horrible life of being pregnant because. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.90
Nicole
Pretty well. Everybody was on the pill that wanted to. 0:20:48.290 --> 0:20:49.250
Nicole
And you could get it. 0:20:50.330 --> 0:20:59.370
Nicole
On or off campus somewhere close, so all the people in residence are the women in residence would go and get, you know, get on the pill. 0:21:2.180 --> 0:21:10.130
Elizabeth Lafrance
In your own words, did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s, or what did? Sorry. 0:21:10.580 --> 0:21:19.840
Nicole
Well, apart from the pill, equal rights all of a sudden, yes, we did a lot of talking as women about how. 0:21:22.490 --> 0:21:30.530
Nicole
Our parents were our our mothers were being encased in this expectation and that we didn't wanna be the same. 0:21:31.530 --> 0:21:38.10
Nicole
We wanted to have more choices. We wanted more things and we realized very quickly that. 0:21:39.870 --> 0:21:49.410
Nicole
It was the man that was running this world and and we weren’t. We were. There was a lot of discussion. There was some really good discussions about. 0:21:50.40 --> 0:22:19.990
Nicole
Representation about government being only men, you know, corporations being led by men we were. We were definitely incensed about that. And it that messaging was definitely coming from the states. It we were hearing it. We were seeing it, there was campus groupings of women that and I remember sitting a couple of them I went, you know, once in a while I'd sit in on on some of those groups you. Cassie was really important that we we understand. 0:22:20.70 --> 0:22:21.750
Nicole
Why and how to change that? 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:36.760
Nicole
But University had the social culture and the and the intellectual culture that we were more even equal because you could talk and you could challenge it there. 0:22:37.670 --> 0:22:40.570
Nicole
But it was very different when we went out into the real world. 0:22:42.170 --> 0:22:46.80
Nicole
That environment that university gave, gave us the opportunity. 0:22:46.730 --> 0:22:47.770
Nicole
To question ourselves. 0:22:48.550 --> 0:22:51.0
Nicole
But it's only when we got into the real world that. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.70
Nicole
We realized wait a SEC. 0:22:54.40 --> 0:22:55.530
Nicole
Still not doing it right. 0:23:4.280 --> 0:23:4.720
Nicole
Yes. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:5.190
Elizabeth Lafrance
So were you a part of like those conversations that was happening in university about, like, feminism and, like, equal rights? 0:23:6.260 --> 0:23:12.830
Nicole
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Often we. Like I said, we would join some of the groups and, and have these discussions. 0:23:13.710 --> 0:23:36.530
Nicole
Think we thought we with the universities you can create a group anytime you wanted to and you could, you know, have a meeting and use a a room. So yes, I-I did was I one to March? No, because I felt quite comfortable where I was in my world. But yes we did. I did sit in on quite a lot of the discussions at that time. 0:23:39.60 --> 0:23:39.570
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:23:41.130 --> 0:23:53.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
Gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classrooms or at social events compared to the male students? 0:23:54.510 --> 0:23:59.600
Nicole
So the most interesting thing that happened to us when we when I started. 0:24:0.420 --> 0:24:1.950
Nicole
The first year. 0:24:3.250 --> 0:24:24.580
Nicole
All our classes. OK, so we were the things that we were specializing in teaching physical education, right. It was a course that brought you teaching Phys Ed in schools. OK, so at the first my first year, all my courses in sports were separate. 0:24:25.420 --> 0:24:26.130
Nicole
From the boys. 0:24:27.50 --> 0:24:37.100
Nicole
So we learned the female courses like dance and all of the sports, even basketball. It was all the girls together. 0:24:38.330 --> 0:24:47.300
Nicole
The next year we were there, UOttawa, the Department of Phys Ed, decided that they could not keep doing this. 0:24:48.230 --> 0:25:4.230
Nicole
Because when a teachers got into the real world of teaching, they got caught or they got, they were told they had to teach a class of boys or a class of girls, and they didn't have any background in it. 0:25:4.900 --> 0:25:13.370 Nicole
So that second year and forever after that, all the teaching of sports was mixed. 0:25:14.230 --> 0:25:25.600
Nicole
So, and it was hilarious. I can still see this. One of the guys. And I knew him quite well. He was huge. He was like 280 and he was on the provincial wrestling team. 0:25:27.90 --> 0:25:35.360
Nicole
And he comes to me and says, OK, here it is. You're gonna teach me how to teach dance. And I'm gonna teach you how to how to teach wrestling. 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:43.880
Nicole
I'm nearly got killed with him because he was so huge, but that's how much we had to change all of a sudden. 0:25:44.650 --> 0:25:54.380
Nicole
How we were looking at-at all of the introduction of teaching, because we have to learn the other sports. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:26:9.330
Nicole
And that was a huge hardship, and the teachers had a hard time with you because here you come in with a group of women and go, OK, what do we do with them? Like, how am I gonna teach wrestling to girls who never in their lives wrestle? 0:26:10.210 --> 0:26:10.830
Nicole
That was. 0:26:10.780 --> 0:26:11.50
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yeah. 0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:16.180
Nicole
A big piece, but absolutely shifted how we looked at everything. 0:26:17.30 --> 0:26:20.860
Nicole
And because of that my first job. 0:26:21.980 --> 0:26:28.60
Nicole
I was able to teach. I had three girls classes, but I had two boys classes. 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:32.370
Nicole
And they hired me because I had had that preparation. 0:26:33.890 --> 0:26:34.880
Nicole
But it did make a difference. 0:26:35.730 --> 0:26:36.60
Nicole
Yeah. 0:26:37.750 --> 0:26:45.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
And the 1970s were there, UOttawa programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted? 0:26:46.30 --> 0:26:46.230
Nicole
Absoluteely. 0:26:46.340 --> 0:26:46.840
Nicole
Remotely. 0:26:47.540 --> 0:26:52.0
Nicole
Everywhere there were certain things that you could see that you know, the women just weren't there. 0:26:52.660 --> 0:26:55.710
Nicole
Um, there was there was a. 0:26:56.490 --> 0:27:4.870
Nicole
Pick up hockey was the one of the first ones, and again, because women didn't play hockey in those days. 0:27:6.140 --> 0:27:11.890
Nicole
And I remember going to the rink and that's just one example going to the rink and saying I’d love to play hockey. 0:27:12.660 --> 0:27:16.670
Nicole
I can skate. Why can't I learn to play hockey? I got killed. 0:27:18.140 --> 0:27:31.300
Nicole
And if we should pick up hockey, but I because the guys knew me, I they taught me how to do it. But Oh God, there was so many things where it was still the women on one side and the minimum. There's no question about it. 0:27:32.60 --> 0:27:43.900
Nicole
And the man introduced, you know, wanting to go on the on the women's side too, it was as much one side as the other, but slowly, by the end of my five years. 0:27:44.740 --> 0:27:47.350
Nicole
It it was integrated a lot more. 0:27:48.10 --> 0:27:49.820
Nicole
Space compared to when I started. 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:51.230
Nicole
Absolutely. 0:27:53.430 --> 0:27:57.640
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you yourself face challenges, like when you wanted to like? 0:27:58.430 --> 0:28:1.520
Elizabeth Lafrance
Go into a space that was not as like female dominated. 0:28:3.190 --> 0:28:4.880
Nicole
Yes, absolutely. 0:28:5.680 --> 0:28:9.230
Nicole
Um and some women were more. 0:28:10.250 --> 0:28:13.460
Nicole
Comfortable and being in that world. 0:28:14.630 --> 0:28:29.900
Nicole
And I was, um, it really depended on how you-you looked at things. Some of the women weren't comfortable at all. I was skiing instructor, downhill ski instructor, and I ran. 0:28:31.0 --> 0:28:33.730
Nicole
The Speed School Children's school. At camp fortune. 0:28:35.210 --> 0:28:48.180
Nicole
All the way through university on the weekends, I was in charge of all the kids programs and we're talking 2000 kids a weekend. It was a massive ski school and I ran that. 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:50.670
Nicole
So I was with the guys all the time. 0:28:52.30 --> 0:29:3.840
Nicole
And I was the only woman that ran these programs. The others were all male, so I was more comfortable. But I knew a lot of women who would never have stepped up. 0:29:5.130 --> 0:29:15.970
Nicole
But again, by the end of my five years there, it was more accepted. It was more natural to have a women coming into sports that. 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:17.840
Nicole
You know, wouldn't have. 0:29:18.500 --> 0:29:25.430
Nicole
Now, but even then, I- my daughter, who played boys, competitive hockey. 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:36.310
Nicole
Did have her challenges? So I could I can still see. It's not completely there. It never will be. I don't think. But we've come a long way. 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:44.790
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, so I'm going to move on to the another theme that ideology and generation on differences. 0:29:46.490 --> 0:30:6.920
Elizabeth Lafrance
Historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that your generation rebelled against the values of your parents, generation. To what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize or a more just or just adjust society and better world? 0:30:8.590 --> 0:30:17.580
Nicole
So there's a lot of. So we talked a lot about language and female and male. The one I think that. 0:30:18.750 --> 0:30:23.170
Nicole
Really, we started to understand more as we got into you like. 0:30:24.770 --> 0:30:29.890
Nicole
Old in more older grades of the university was more multicultural. 0:30:31.100 --> 0:30:31.850
Nicole
It was all white. 0:30:32.730 --> 0:30:35.230
Nicole
And if there were so few black. 0:30:35.890 --> 0:30:37.620
Nicole
Kids in the school. 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:50.290
Nicole
And that's the one that we all all of a sudden started questioning saying, why is it like that? Like what is it with, you know, all of a sudden there was there was these discussions about. 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:55.710
Nicole
That hadn't existed before. My world was completely white. 0:30:57.280 --> 0:31:7.10
Nicole
And all of a sudden we were starting to say, well, why aren't they here or there we-we would talk to them and and they would be starting to say. 0:31:8.210 --> 0:31:9.650
Nicole
But why is it like that? 0:31:9.990 --> 0:31:13.250
Nicole
Um, so yeah, we-we did start. 0:31:13.920 --> 0:31:26.620
Nicole
Talking about why and how you know, also again still the male female challenges of being represented to everywhere. So we you were pushing the envelope. 0:31:28.220 --> 0:31:31.890
Nicole
In our days, quite a lot more than when we started. 0:31:33.510 --> 0:31:43.110
Nicole
There was a lot more of why not and why can't we do this and let's let's go and find out or let's get involved more. 0:31:44.300 --> 0:31:51.940
Nicole
Which a lot of women didn't at the beginning and we had a greater voice of challenging that that piece. 0:31:53.80 --> 0:31:55.260
Nicole
But the multicultural piece does. 0:31:56.270 --> 0:32:1.540
Nicole
I really eye opener at the beginning started talking to the few. 0:32:2.680 --> 0:32:3.980
Nicole
Black kids that were with us. 0:32:5.290 --> 0:32:8.110
Nicole
And it was really eye opening back for sure. 0:32:10.650 --> 0:32:18.90
Elizabeth Lafrance
To what extent did your generation believe that your parents, and their notions about gender, family and dating, were outdated? 0:32:20.490 --> 0:32:21.160
Nicole
OK. 0:32:24.290 --> 0:32:28.780
Nicole
Yes, it it was because of the pill. The pill changed our lives. 0:32:29.540 --> 0:32:30.870
Nicole
Because before that. 0:32:31.650 --> 0:32:32.40
Nicole
If. 0:32:35.950 --> 0:32:40.80
Nicole
And all of a sudden that was all gone. You could do whatever you wanted to. 0:32:40.770 --> 0:32:42.460
Nicole
Where as our parents. 0:32:43.630 --> 0:32:47.0
Nicole
You know, they they really believed in in being, you know. 0:32:48.370 --> 0:32:49.740
Nicole
More individual. 0:32:50.380 --> 0:32:51.30
Nicole
Um. 0:32:53.180 --> 0:32:58.140
Nicole
I could see that that was definitely a challenge. 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:0.650
Nicole
Equal pay for equal work. 0:33:1.650 --> 0:33:7.930
Nicole
Um, I think that was one that we started hearing a lot now in education, it was equal. 0:33:8.910 --> 0:33:18.150
Nicole
But the jobs were not equal and we were hearing that already because we would have, we would go into schools and do practicals. 0:33:19.140 --> 0:33:23.690
Nicole
And so we were in the schools and it was very obvious that. 0:33:24.620 --> 0:33:28.270
Nicole
The senior administration, principals and vice principals were all male. 0:33:29.910 --> 0:33:31.140
Nicole
There were no female. 0:33:32.10 --> 0:33:36.460
Nicole
That we saw. So we realized even then that. 0:33:37.210 --> 0:33:43.250
Nicole
Wait a SEC, why is there not. And-and 80% of teachers are female, but yet? 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:53.780
Nicole
You know, it was like 90% male in administration and and and also in the teaching environment we didn't have a lot of female teachers. 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:58.420
Nicole
So, and the ones we did really did help us. 0:33:59.210 --> 0:34:2.680
Nicole
To voice our-our concerns, but there's no question. 0:34:3.850 --> 0:34:6.370
Nicole
We were second guessing ourselves for that one for sure. 0:34:9.860 --> 0:34:12.670
Elizabeth Lafrance
Talking about to the 1970s. 0:34:14.780 --> 0:34:21.160
Elizabeth Lafrance
What aspect of Canadian to society did you see as most out of whack and in needing of fixing? 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.170
Nicole
Again, same thing. It really was. 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.330
Nicole
OK, great. equal work. 0:34:28.460 --> 0:34:37.30
Nicole
We- it was very obvious about that. We thought we could change the world. You do when you're at university because you're talking with other people that agree with you. 0:34:38.520 --> 0:34:42.830
Nicole
And so it's only when you get into the work world that. 0:34:43.710 --> 0:34:46.310
Nicole
Things don't change as quickly as you want it to. 0:34:47.350 --> 0:34:51.180
Nicole
So the environment you live in through your university years. 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.120
Nicole
Are your most open. 0:34:55.260 --> 0:34:58.840
Nicole
In terms of questioning the why and how. 0:35:0.160 --> 0:35:4.550
Nicole
But it's only when you get into the work world that you realize, oh. 0:35:5.260 --> 0:35:6.120
Nicole
It's not as simple as that. 0:35:7.710 --> 0:35:10.120
Nicole
But in theory it sounded great that university. 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:12.680
Nicole
That was a huge right there. 0:35:14.240 --> 0:35:17.120
Nicole
And and it needed fixing. There's no question about that. 0:35:19.370 --> 0:35:20.140
Nicole
That’s the difference. 0:35:19.850 --> 0:35:20.380
Elizabeth Lafrance I'm. 0:35:24.900 --> 0:35:30.690
Elizabeth Lafrance
What were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:35:32.130 --> 0:35:36.950
Nicole
Again, women being able to work outside of home. 0:35:37.700 --> 0:35:41.610
Nicole
And I was still in that generation where you stayed at home with your kids. 0:35:42.810 --> 0:35:43.680
Nicole
Um. 0:35:45.890 --> 0:36:2.190
Nicole
And most women I knew were talking about being home with kids, you know, and share your kids and racism again, same thing. There was a lot of injustices in-in, in the black community. 0:36:2.940 --> 0:36:5.870
Nicole
And we were just starting to be aware. 0:36:7.510 --> 0:36:9.410
Nicole
So there was definitely. 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:11.330
Nicole
For that too. 0:36:15.240 --> 0:36:23.480
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did you feel that any political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:36:24.430 --> 0:36:28.890
Nicole
They were responsible, responsive to the white male. 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:31.260
Nicole
No one else. 0:36:32.40 --> 0:36:33.850
Nicole
It was all about the white male. 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:36.420
Nicole
Everything was. 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:44.900
Nicole
Control directed. There's no question that we were not equal and not and we still are not represented. 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.130
Nicole
So you can imagine back then how much, how little there was. 0:36:49.900 --> 0:37:2.930
Nicole
And we were we were talking about it a lot more or aware of it here. That first generation that said, hang on here. You know, why is it that? But it took a lot of. 0:37:4.100 --> 0:37:8.840
Nicole
Thinking of looking ahead to want to be one of those women that broke the seal? 0:37:10.110 --> 0:37:12.820
Nicole
And that was that. It took a while for that to happen. 0:37:13.620 --> 0:37:13.820
Nicole
Here. 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:16.930
Elizabeth Lafrance
And. 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:25.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So this is also talking on how cultural historians have argued that introduction to the birth control pill. 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:28.70
Elizabeth Lafrance
Legalization of abortion and dissemination. 0:37:28.550 --> 0:37:40.540
Elizabeth Lafrance
Of the manifestation of the free love ideology changed general gender relations and dating practices, in the early 1970s, do you agree with this statement? 0:37:41.10 --> 0:37:48.790
Nicole
Absolutely. It was massive. It really was. It was huge. It changed the whole lives up for us as a woman. 0:37:49.780 --> 0:37:53.570
Nicole
And you could decide when you wanted to be a mother. 0:37:55.340 --> 0:37:56.0
Nicole
Didn't before. 0:37:56.650 --> 0:38:0.370
Nicole
There was an expectation when I remember my mom telling me that that. 0:38:1.490 --> 0:38:8.570
Nicole
These would come around and they’d be pregnant by now. Again like there was a huge push, whereas the pill changed back. 0:38:9.540 --> 0:38:12.370
Nicole
You wanted to work for another five years and not get pregnant. 0:38:13.500 --> 0:38:13.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:38:14.660 --> 0:38:18.750
Nicole
And you had control over your life much, much more than our parents did. 0:38:22.500 --> 0:38:26.660
Elizabeth Lafrance
What did dating look like? At UOttawa in the 1970s? 0:38:29.220 --> 0:38:29.420
Nicole
I. 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:31.310
Nicole
It was pretty crazy. 0:38:32.430 --> 0:38:36.760
Nicole
It really was that first generation of. 0:38:37.500 --> 0:38:38.950
Nicole
Whenever we want because. 0:38:39.630 --> 0:38:40.660
Nicole
I can't get pregnant. 0:38:42.210 --> 0:38:43.750
Nicole
So it was. 0:38:44.620 --> 0:38:47.480
Nicole
Some of it was bad. Some of it was over the top. 0:38:48.290 --> 0:38:51.0
Nicole
Some women got badly. 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:54.100
Nicole
Abused. 0:38:55.90 --> 0:38:57.940
Nicole
Because of that, and we. 0:38:58.810 --> 0:39:1.610
Nicole
We didn't know any better to say. 0:39:4.210 --> 0:39:6.660
Nicole
It's saying when we said no. 0:39:7.310 --> 0:39:9.480
Nicole
It means no those days. 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:15.250
Nicole
You-you had to be strong as an individual woman to say no. 0:39:15.980 --> 0:39:20.120
Nicole
And then I heard through the Grapevine often. 0:39:21.190 --> 0:39:33.200
Nicole
Me push the limits and women have been raped and and we would talk about it, but we never did anything about it. You didn't go to the police, didn't go to senior staff about it. You just. 0:39:34.660 --> 0:39:36.660
Nicole
Model of the person that had lived through it. 0:39:38.20 --> 0:39:38.580
Nicole
It was. 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:40.940
Nicole
Yeah, it was bad. 0:39:41.740 --> 0:39:47.920
Nicole
Um, you got smart as the group of women, and so if you didn't want to be. 0:39:48.940 --> 0:39:51.430
Nicole
You you moved in groups a lot. 0:39:52.980 --> 0:39:55.390
Nicole
As women, we still do, don't you? 0:39:56.180 --> 0:39:56.660
Nicole
You know. 0:39:56.520 --> 0:39:56.910
Elizabeth Lafrance
Yes. 0:39:57.340 --> 0:40:0.250
Nicole
Yeah. So you learn to be smart. 0:40:1.810 --> 0:40:3.920
Nicole
And I think that's what we learned. 0:40:4.750 --> 0:40:8.940
Nicole
About that part, just because you were on the pill did not mean you were safe, yes. 0:40:9.690 --> 0:40:13.400
Nicole
That's the people I think that they're very quickly. 0:40:14.200 --> 0:40:14.600
Nicole
Um. 0:40:15.330 --> 0:40:16.590
Nicole
And saying no. 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:29.750
Nicole
With something that we learned has a group of women like talking to each other and and saying, wait a SEC. You know, I don't want to go out with this guy and they're saying, well, why do we have to kind of thing? 0:40:30.500 --> 0:40:30.820
Nicole
Yes. 0:40:31.930 --> 0:40:32.230
Nicole
Negative. 0:40:33.470 --> 0:40:36.960
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um, how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:40:38.430 --> 0:40:38.890
Nicole
Ah. 0:40:40.240 --> 0:40:40.680
Nicole
I think. 0:40:42.60 --> 0:40:48.280
Nicole
We still work very, very much living the same as our parents in terms of expectations. 0:40:49.180 --> 0:40:51.520
Nicole
Finding a family wanting to be married. 0:40:52.240 --> 0:40:58.450
Nicole
But we took longer to do it. We waited longer because we had that luxury. 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:1.40
Nicole
Of not getting pregnant. 0:41:2.40 --> 0:41:6.710
Nicole
He had the time to make the decisions later. 0:41:7.440 --> 0:41:8.170
Nicole
Then our parents. 0:41:8.930 --> 0:41:12.30
Nicole
My mom was pregnant by 21. 0:41:12.690 --> 0:41:16.400
Nicole
Married. You know, in the suit she's married. She was pregnant. 0:41:17.500 --> 0:41:18.110
Nicole
Whereas. 0:41:18.870 --> 0:41:33.130
Nicole
I had that luxury of saying, well, you know what I-I wanna work. I wanna work more and take my time making those decisions and maybe finding the right guy. And so we had that luxury. 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:42.550
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:44.150
Elizabeth Lafrance
And so. 0:41:45.20 --> 0:41:46.620
Elizabeth Lafrance
You’ve read the questions, right? 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:47.140
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:49.430 --> 0:41:49.780
Nicole
Yeah. 0:41:48.40 --> 0:41:50.980
Elizabeth Lafrance
Do you want to answer like, the final question? 0:41:51.930 --> 0:41:52.990
Elizabeth Lafrance
Um. 0:41:55.290 --> 0:42:6.110
Elizabeth Lafrance
Many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:42:6.810 --> 0:42:7.920
Nicole
Absolutely nothing. 0:42:9.600 --> 0:42:17.380
Nicole
There was always a security guard there, but he was as dangerous as the kids and the boys. 0:42:18.130 --> 0:42:21.730
Nicole
And that's why we were really hung out as groups. 0:42:22.870 --> 0:42:29.100
Nicole
So women, unless you were with your boyfriend, you know that was wrong. You know, more of a relationship. 0:42:30.70 --> 0:42:40.430
Nicole
That security was half the time. It was one of the older guys that was paid to be that. It would have put a jacket on and he'd be a security guy. 0:42:41.100 --> 0:42:51.650
Nicole
Or an older man. And no, you did not go and tell those guys that something happened to you. It was never talked that way unless. 0:42:53.250 --> 0:43:3.420
Nicole
Unless the woman was beaten up and you had called, you had to call an ambulance. That was a different story, and even then it was it was not sexually. 0:43:5.630 --> 0:43:9.850
Nicole
I'm saying so it we didn’t talk about that part very much- she didn't. 0:43:10.870 --> 0:43:16.530
Nicole
I never experienced anyone around me that happened. I heard it through the Grapevine. 0:43:17.210 --> 0:43:17.800
Nicole
Um. 0:43:18.900 --> 0:43:21.270
Nicole
But no, there was.
Nicole
You really had to think on your feet. You had to be smart. 0:43:30.350 --> 0:43:31.740
Nicole
And you learned that. 0:43:32.410 --> 0:43:39.910
Nicole
Being the women burned, what was safer to do so that you wouldn't? You wouldn't get in that situation. 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:41.320
Nicole
And. 0:43:42.490 --> 0:43:53.430
Nicole
I was lucky and my group lucky, so I guess it depended on you know, the type of relationship you have with the guys and how you did each other. 0:43:54.60 --> 0:43:57.350
Nicole
But I heard that line I would hear about. 0:43:58.210 --> 0:43:58.460
Nicole
Or. 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:3.890
Nicole
Absolutely. Especially the first two years and it was always senior guys. 0:44:4.780 --> 0:44:5.740
Nicole
You know that would be. 0:44:7.220 --> 0:44:10.700
Nicole
Going on at after the- the younger ones who had just arrived. 0:44:12.130 --> 0:44:13.620
Nicole
And that- that made a big difference. 0:44:16.810 --> 0:44:30.940
Elizabeth Lafrance
Our generation is interested in a free love movement. What was the perception of premarital sex on the University of Ottawa campus in 1970s? Was it viewed negatively, accepted or even encouraged? 0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:36.810
Nicole
It was encouraged. I was fun. It really was. I mean, we were that first generation. 0:44:37.550 --> 0:44:39.190
Nicole
That all of a sudden? 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.170
Nicole
You you didn't have to worry about it. So you. 0:44:44.240 --> 0:44:45.10
Nicole
You had fun. 0:44:46.310 --> 0:44:48.260
Nicole
It was definitely expected. 0:44:48.920 --> 0:45:3.980
Nicole
And yet there was still a lot of girls who didn't want to go on the pill and did not really, you know, save themselves for the- the guy. And that was fine too. But most of us. 0:45:5.10 --> 0:45:8.760
Nicole
Um, you just live the way you want to. 0:45:10.170 --> 0:45:11.950
Nicole
It was pretty wild, that's for sure. 0:45:15.530 --> 0:45:21.460
Elizabeth Lafrance
Did members of your parents generation worry about pre marital sex? 0:45:22.30 --> 0:45:24.710
Nicole
Ohm. My God, my mother was so petrified for me to get pregnant. 0:45:25.410 --> 0:45:52.490
Nicole
And she didn't find out I was on the pill till much later. Didn't ask her permission to. I didn't dare talk about that. And it's only years later. And by then my sister, who's not much older and much younger than I was. And I'm the one who told her, alright, you're gonna do something. You better go get it and we could. We could go into a clinic. We could go into. It was right on campus. 0:45:53.850 --> 0:45:56.80
Nicole
That part you could find. 0:45:56.270 --> 0:46:0.980
Nicole
Um prescription for- for the pill, that's for sure. 0:46:2.130 --> 0:46:3.120
Nicole
It was. 0:46:5.350 --> 0:46:30.950
Nicole
It would. You just could find it. I- I went to my family doctor and by then I was one. And the other thing too. We were we were older because we had grade 13. Right. So we were one year older. So by the time we finished and I had to have a 5 year degree. So we were there for quite a while. So we were a lot older. 0:46:31.990 --> 0:46:33.570
Nicole
So that made a difference too. 0:46:34.660 --> 0:46:40.720
Nicole
But the decisions were easier to get to, and the- the bill was easy to get too, for sure. 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:41.950
Nicole
Um. 0:46:42.850 --> 0:46:45.80
Nicole
And I think that changed. How. 0:46:46.610 --> 0:46:47.220
Nicole
We lived. 0:46:51.100 --> 0:46:52.80
Elizabeth Lafrance
So it's all my questions. 0:46:53.10 --> 0:46:56.590
Elizabeth Lafrance
I'm going to stop the recording and. 0:46:59.10 --> 0:46:59.680
Elizabeth Lafrance
transcription now. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4, 47 minutes, 13 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Turpin, Nicole (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about The University of Ottawa in the 1970s, including the counter-culture movement and second-wave feminism Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-10-21 Bilingualism Generational Differences Hippies Kiniesiology Leisure Ottawa Hangouts Party Culture Popular Music Race Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Sovereignty Sports The Pill University of Ottawa Vietnam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Boogaart, Thomas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vares, Thomas Location The location of the interview Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vares, Thomas Interview Title: Interview with Thomas Vares Interviewed by: Thomas Boogaart II Date of Interview: November 10, 2023 Venue: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada using Teams Transcription Method: Microsoft Teams Original Language: English Translation: DeepL and Thomas Boogaart edits Tags (English): Ottawa, Toronto, Estonian Immigrant Culture, University of Ottawa, Youth Rebellion, Counterculture Movement, Hair Styles, Sexism, Shoplifting, Francophone Culture, Department of History, Party Culture. Citation: • Bibliography: Vares, Thomas. Interview with Thomas Boogaart. November 10, 2023. 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds. https://omeka.uottawa.ca/lifeoncampus/admin/items/show/1 • Footnote: Thomas Vares, interview with Thomas Boogaart, November 10, 2023, 23:06-23:24. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M39RtSf81k Thomas Boogaart (TB): It is November 10, 2023. We're in Desmarais 9114 and I have with me an illustrious alumni from the class of 1973, AKA a dinosaur generation. Thomas Vare (TV): The dinosaur generation? TB: Yes, we're looking forward to hearing some histories, Thomas Vares; did I pronounce it correctly? TV: Yeah. TB: OK, so I'm a little bit of a historian of the 20th century, and for an Estonian of that generation, usually when your family came over here (to Canada) it was related in some way to World War Two. So, I was curious how your family landed here. TV: Very well. So, I was born in Toronto. We lived in the Beach, which is the East End, a very Anglo-Saxon neighborhood, and still perhaps one of the most Anglo-Saxon neighborhoods in multicultural Toronto today. So, my parents came from Estonia, one of the Baltic countries, very, very small, about the size of Montreal, a country with a population of about 1.2 million, one-third being Russian today. And, they were overtaken by the Soviets during the Second World War, and people had basically 48 hours to make a decision. Do they stay and become part of the Soviet occupation, or do they flee? So, my parents fled from different families, and they fled across Europe and my mother, and her mother, fled to Germany. And they were in one of these work camps in Germany. They were actually in Dresden for the fire bombings by the Allies. And you know, they described to me these stories of how all the buildings were burning, and the only way that they could escape the bombed area was to wrap wet bed sheets around their bodies and run between the burning buildings. TB: Did they use white phosphorus? TV: I don't know what they used at that point in the bombing, and also my mother and her mother became separated in Dresden at one point. And so people would go to a wall and they dropped their name. And then say, you know, meet me at such and such a place and people could get unified again. So, my mother and my grandmother reunited. And then they came to Canada together. TB: They were displaced persons in Germany? TV: Exactly. And, so, they immigrated under that program, and they became maids for the Nielsen family in Toronto. The Chocolate Nielsen family. So, they were made for that particular family. That was the first employment they had. Now my father's story is a bit different. My father was from one of the major cities in Estonia and there was a political problem in that family. The Vares family, where one of the brothers was a Soviet sympathizer, and became the 1st President of the Estonian, of the Soviet version of Estonia, Estonian, USSR. So, my father; he fled with his mother and father and they ended up in New York. And somehow, I don't know the story, but my father managed to come to Canada and established himself in Toronto, where he worked on the railway. And so that's where he met my mother in Toronto. TB: So, they were both Estonian, but they didn't meet in the neighborhood. They met at work. TV: I don't know, they were dating somehow. I don't know how it was, but the immigrant community was very interesting because let's say all of these Estonians that immigrated in that wave after the Second World War in Toronto, all became a network of friends. And you know, my godparents were friends or friends, and it was a very, very tight network. TB: It's very typical with immigrants. TV: The street that I grew up on in Toronto, it had 12 Estonian families, but you believe that's the, let's say there were maybe 70 homes on Glen Davis. The street in the east and there were like 11 or 12 Estonian families on that street. TB: I think Estonian was Catholic. TV: No, they were Lutheran. So, you have regular Lutheran, and then you have an evangelical branch. TB: Yes, I'm familiar with that. So, were those church institutions important in Toronto in terms of integrating your social life? TV: Yes, very much so. The Priest- the minister- would visit our home and talk to my parents, etcetera. And, every year, an amount of money was identified by the minister as to how much the family had to contribute to the church. TB: The Tithe. TV: Exactly. So, it's almost like the old-fashioned Catholic way of doing things. TB: So, growing up in that system, imagine a lot of your social activities would have been in the church. TV: Exactly. So, I went to the Estonian Lutheran Church in Toronto. I went to Estonian summer camp where we spoke Estonian and it maintained the language. I went to Estonian school once a week in the evenings learning how to read and write, learn the history, and that sort of thing. So one of the things that sort of bothered me was that being brought up in that type of home, European Home Canada was put on a second level and the Estonian way of doing things is always the best, the superior way. These Canadians don't know anything. They don't know how to make soup. They, you know, eat soup out of again. But we European Estonians we cooked from scratch, you know? TB: It makes sense, right? Because they were forced to flee their home. So there was a kind of a loneliness for a home. TV: They couldn't go back, but as you know, very interesting. Is that what they don't realize? They couldn't go back really at that point because of the Soviet situation. You know what is interesting is the home country evolves. TB: Um-hmm. TV: And advances yes, and the language advances the vocabulary advances, but the all the exported colony. Yes, is frozen in time. TB: So, the linguists come to the United States to study the old language because it's frozen. TV: So exactly this is what happened, let's say with French. So, when New France was established in North America, the people here, the culture, the accent, it froze. Meanwhile, France, the metropolis it was evolving, right? So the Quebec accent that you have today is very much based on umm, you know exactly that's that same. TB: So you really grew up in an English Estonian environment? TV: Yes. TB: What was your perception growing up about Francophone culture? TV: Yeah, I believe in another life I was francophone because let me tell you, at the age of five or six, when I was sitting down at breakfast reading and looking at the Shreddies box or cornflakes, there's French and there's English. I was always fascinated. What is the French we used to get orange pekoe tea in a box, right? And they had a bird card. So, you could make your collection of bird cards. They were bilingual and the instructions on the box were bilingual, so I was always fascinated by this other language. But the overall attitude of immigrants vis-a-vis French was, well, why did they think they're special? You know, there was a little bit of a, a grudge there about well, well, why, you know, why is that language being given all of this attention to when we TB: And that's in the 50s and 60s? TV: Yes. TB: Before the sovereignty movement? TV: Yeah. even before that: And that value never changed with my parents. But they much wanted me to learn French, and we learned it in high school in Toronto, it was only in high school that you really started to seriously studying French. TB: So did you have an idea about Montreal as a cultural scene? TV: Well, Montreal was, you know, up until 1970, Montreal was the biggest city in Canada and the capital of not only French Canadian culture, but English, Canadian culture, because CBC radio and television English section was headquartered in Montreal. So all of the stars and the writers they were all established in Montreal. It wasn't until the political situation and people moved down the 4:01 that Toronto overcame Montreal and then CBC and the English Center of Culture shifted from Montreal to Toronto. TB: But you were growing up in this metropolitan area of Toronto, what was your sense of Montreal as a metropole? TV: Oh, fantastic because in my mind the first contact I had with Montreal was 1967. Expo 67 and all of the students from Toronto came to Montreal for four days or five days and we stayed at the College in the West End and the Agricultural College, TB: John Abott College? TV: Yes, and they had like a dorm. Som we stayed there and then we went to Expo and that's where we met French Canadians for the first time. It was totally amazing and one of the memories I have is they had the Expo train that went around the Expo site and at one point there was this dramatic view of the entire Expo site and there were some students, a class of students from Montreal, French-speaking, that were on that particular train with our class. And the minute they saw this huge view of the Expo, spontaneously, they started singing. Oh, Canada in French. It was a totally amazing moment, but getting back to what you're saying, my affinity and my love for Montreal from that point on was they were European. TB: Like you? TV: Yes, I was of European background. Their values of life were similar to the European values, even has a port. TB: Reading the cereal box you had this sense of affinity for that something. TV: And then when I met French Canadians for the first time when we came here to Montreal and 67, it clicked and I said, you know what, they are European and (Torontonians) they are not. And I don't wanna be racist or anything, but I always felt that English-speaking values and culture it’s sterile. There was something missing there. And the one that's one thing I agreed with my parents that the European background, we know how to live life and a bit more than just working 9 to 5 going home and that sort of thing. TB: That's the affinity you felt. TV: That's the affinity that clicked and then of course coming with my school, my public school, to Ottawa for a tour. Also, that was one of the visits that they organized. It was that whole idea. My God, I just where the government is and I became a political junkie. TB: Did you have a sense that Ottawa was not a cultural center but more of a political center? TV: It was not only a Cultural Center, but when we came here with our class from public school. It was the first time I saw a functioning bilingual environment where you could go into a store and you would hear French-speaking in English-speaking people they had a full-time French radio station, and a television station because, in Toronto, it wasn't until about 1970 that they opened up Radio Canada television station service. : What they had was once in a while they would carry French programs on one of the Hamilton stations, but there was no French-speaking television at that point until about 1970. TB: So you already told me you'll have to do it again. The story of how you came to Ottawa, but I can already see you had a kind of affinity. TV: Right. So yeah, so, I had this. I had this urge to become French-Canadian; Pierre Elliot Trudeau had a lot to do with it. He was my absolute idol and when I came here with my public school tour, it was the, you know, the end of public school. As such, we bumped into him getting, you know, he was getting into his car, and we got to talk to him. So you know it was, yes. So that was that was the first real step towards Ottawa. So what happened was I enrolled in the French program at Glendon College, York University in the 70s, and late 60s. It was a totally francophone college. Lawrence and Bayview. Beautiful campus. Nice mansion. That and classes were very small and it was a totally French program. Today I think it's sort of transformed itself into a half-French program, a half York University English program. So I took two years there and learned everything from French Canadian literature to courses in French Canadian history, took courses in French, Canadian politics, nationalism, all of that. And after two years, I I sat down with my counselor and I said this would have been 1970. I said well, listen, how can I really, really improve my French? Should I go to Quebec City for a summer job, or you know’ what are my options? And they said, well, you know what you could do, you could go to University of Ottawa. They have a fabulous program there where as an Anglophone you can take your history courses in French, but you can write your essays and your exams in English, so you get the best of both worlds and you get really immersed in French. I said, well, that sounds fantastic. So I spoke to my parents. So, they were all for that. And I arrived here at Ottawa U in my third year and this would have been 70, 71, 72 and loved it and never went back to Toronto and graduated. TB: So you did three years? TV: I did two years. TB: Two years and then two years. TV; Yeah, and it was fabulous. TB: Got a job on thenHill? TV: It's a student job. TB: As a page? TV: During the summer I worked in the post office. TB: OK, yes, it's important. TV: Sorting mail for the MP TB: there was a lot more mail back then. TV: Yes, it was fabulous. And then I became involved with the Liberal Party. It became a young liberal and that's a whole different story. TB: yeah, I'd be curious to hear that too, but we should probably leave that. So, what were your first impressions? You talk very positively about your university experience. But I mean you the first time you kind of came off the train where were you, and where were you living? Did you get an apartment? TV: We were living in residences. Well, you know what I have to tell you, the truth about some of it is rather wild. So, my father drove me to the airport in Toronto to come to Ottawa, and as we were driving to the airport, he gave me the father sons and he said, you know, we're so proud of you. You know, we have absolute confidence in you. We know that you're not gonna be a political radical. Umm, although I was, you know, a child flower child in the 60s and you know, a Beatles fan and you know, so I was a little bit of a cultural revolutionary. He said we have absolute confidence in you and we know you won't do drugs and alcohol and that sort of thing. And I didn't even smoke. So, you know, we know that you're gonna be a good boy. Oh, well, let me tell you about the first week in residence. I'm not even going to go into the details, but all of that just went out the window. TB: Uh-huh. TV: Alright, so my first impression of the society is that the society or the culture of the university residence culture was it was really dominated in immersed in the drug culture of the 60s. TB: OK, you know, so even in this, we're talking about alcohol, hashish, marijuana. TV: (nodding); LSD was very, very big. Let's put it this way. First week in residence and I was on the Marshawn residence right by the driveway there, the Nicholas Street. I had marijuana for the first time, and I think it took me 3 mornings to wake up and not be floating above my mattress. I think or whatever it was. So, I indulged in that, but I knew what my limit was after that. And, so, as I saw my friends advancing from marijuana to hashish to LSD and that sort of thing, I would be in the room and I would decline. And quite sometimes it was quite different. Difficult to be the only person in the room that was there. Umm well, everyone else was hallucinating or doing what they were doing, but I don't blame them or anything. But yeah, that was my first impression was now my second impression was, well, coming from Toronto. This was the first time that I met people from small towns.Yes, from Kingston, Napanee, Apine, or whatever it is, they had an entirely different view of life. TB: Yeah. TV: And absolutely different values and I found myself to be the goody goody of the bunch coming from Toronto. TB: From a strict European family, rebelling against their conservative environment? TV: I don't know. I think it was just values that and again, you know I'm not being critical of these people because they were wonderful people. But for instance, you know, I'll give you one example. So, this you know, Thomas, we've got to shake you up here, like, get you into the real world. So, have you ever shoplifted? I said, what are you talking about? He said, well, you know, shoplifted go into a store and steal something. I said absolutely not. I've never done that, I said. How can you possibly do that without being arrested? So, they said to me they were like two guys from Kingston. OK, where you go to Spark St, there's a there's a Kreski's. Umm, we're gonna show you how to shoplift/ TB: They broke you in? TV: OK, so we went. So, we go into the store and just one guy from Kingston, the leader of sort of our pack, said. OK, so this is what you do you see that lighter over there? This is winter. He said you have one glove here and one glove there. So what you do is you pick up the ledger, you look at it and you put it on top of that glove and then when no one's looking, you take the other glove and you put it on top of that and you walk out of the store. Or so I looked at the lighter. I've never and it's just. I'm sorry I can't do it. I can't do it. TB: you were a good boy. TV: No, no, I you know it wasn't a question of being a good boy. I couldn't do the dare. It was a dare, I said, you know, like, I'm sorry. I mean you can call me a suck if you want to. I cannot do it. Then the second guy. I won't tell you his name, but he was wearing one of these huge leather cowboy hats that they were wearing in the 70s and it was a winter's day and there was like a Blizzard outside. So, we were the only people in this Kresky store. So, I, you know, defied the dare. So, this other guy said, well, you see the records over there, I'm going to go over there and I'm gonna steal one of the records. And I looked at him and I said the store is completely empty. There's three of us in this store, He's got this incredible hat on.I mean, I just said I said, you know what? I'm outta here. I'm going back to residence. You know, you guys can do whatever you wanna do. So went back to residence and an hour later the phones in the hall and I get buzzed, saying there's a phone call for you in the hall. I pick up the phone and it's the guy. Well, what do you want from me? Where are you? I'm at the police station. They won't let me out unless somebody comes down and signs for me. And then you know, I can get out. And then I have to go to court, right? TB: So that's just an example of values and I wish it would call that the teenage rebellion culture like these are wild and maybe they settled down and they're couple years. TV: I think you know, again, I've never been brought up in a small town. You know, I've been brought up in the big city and I said, you know, a disciplined home, first-generation Canadian from a European family where it's, you know, you know, the father, the head of the family says, as long as you, as long as you live in my house and you he really said this: when I tell you to jump, you jump and halfway up I'll tell you how high. And if you don't wanna follow my rules and you go and get your own house, like, that's the type of, you know, European for general, you know, home that I was brought up and so looking at these people from small towns, I think they just had a different set of values and I think they saw Ottawa as the big city and that, that, and ou're right that here is a chance for them to act up. TB: Yeah and rebel. TV: And not be impressed with the bigness college. TB: That was part of breaking away from your parents. I mean cycle and the value you know (verify) TV: I must say that you're on to something. I had that same feeling in a sense, but I always had. A desire to push my parents and their insistence on Estonian background to the second level and bring my Canadian to the front level most of my Estonian friends remained in the Estonian culture, and I said to my parents when I moved to Ottawa you and everything I said, you know, this is an important step for me because you know what? I am Canadian first, Estonian background. Second, never, ever question that. So, I'm not gonna waste my time going to Estonian dance. Hmm group or the literature group, I said. I want the Canadian experience, so I'll take that time and I'll learn about French, Canadian literature, and culture. So, that was a little bit of my revolt. But there was a bit of patriotism thing. TB: I want to go back to something you said because that might help to explain it. You said, well, you identified as a flower child. Like you were influenced by The Beatles, but what did that mean? TV: OK, you listen to the beat of people who give me, give you an example. So classical music at home records, you know, but your parents control the record player. So, it was classical records. The only other music there was Nat King Cole, I think, and I think there were some Sinatra disks. So, one day I went out and I bought one of The Beatles albums. This would have been what, 66-65 TB: 1966 (actually 1964) when they were first coming in with the British invasion? TV: Yeah. And I put and I put that on the record player in the living room and my dad. My dad walks in. What on Earth is that? What is that stuff, and take that off. And why are you playing this it? Because I like it. I like it and that was sort of it. I was surprised because he didn't challenge me on that. Usually, I was challenged on everything like, you know, they determined what type of haircut my mom bought me, all my clothes. TB: you had a crew cut. TV: Yes. TB: And the Beatles cut? TV; Oh please you know I was dying for that. TB: So what? TV: I'll give you an example of how I broke away out of that mode. So my mom wants in a while would give me Her Simpsons card retail card to go downtown to Queen St to buy her a particular fashion patterner or something, and then she would always say while you're there, why don’t you buy something for yourself? So, this would have been 68 I think. So, I went downtown to do some at the store and I bought her pattern or whatever it was. But by saw the Sonny and Cher bell bottoms with flowers and yellow and orange and checks and stripes and I said I have to be happy. TB: Wow. TV: Yeah. So, I bought them. I went home and it gave my mom-- my dad hadn't come home from work at that point-- and gave them my mom. I said to her, Mom, can you hem these pants for me? She's like you just take those things back right now. And when your Dad comes home, I'm gonna tell him, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, what I did was I went upstairs. I've never done any sewing or whatever it is. I went into my mom's sewing kit and I hemmed them, I don't know how I knew how to do it, but I shortened those pants. But I was afraid to come out of my room. So, I heard downstairs my dad was home and there was the usual call. Dinner time to go down. So, I go walking downstairs into the dining room and my dad and my mom were there. TB: They are at the table. TV: Yeah, at the table and I'm just like, I'm modeling these Sonny and Cher flower child, bell bottom pants. And you know what? They didn't say anything. TB; You think they had discussed it? TV: I don't know. I don't know, but nothing. TB: No criticism? TV: Absolutely nothing. From then on, I was able to change my clothes. TB: You think they came to some sort of an assessment at that point, they viewed that as a threat. They were gonna lose their son, or what was the threat presented? TV: I think it was cultural. I think it was saying that you know, like we wanted like at this straight European type of child you know a conservative and not into all of this. You know, cultural revolution and everything, but it was sort of step by step. So it was the music that I wanted to hear. It was, you know, getting the bell bottoms. TB: It seemed like the way you're describing it, you can tell me if I'm right or not for your parents it was a sense of you developing your own identity away from old Estonia, but they didn't see it as like you were becoming liberal, promiscuous? TV; No, no, I think they also found it to be. A reality, you know, a reality in a sense. And I think they understood that you know, I was growing and you know, at one point you have to show some respect and acceptance as such. So you know that was so the music, the clothes. And then after the pants, the hair became, you know, I could go to the Barber alone. And I could decide on, you know, but education, strict control. OK. And I'll never forgive my dad for high school. He forced me to take Latin for five years, and my God, I hated that. TB: It's valuable for history. TV: Oh please, are you kidding? I've never used it day in my life and and and my dad. You know, it was. Oh, my son, if you wanna be a lawyer, you wanna be a pharmacist? Do you wanna be a doctor? TB: You have to know latin. . .. TV: No, please. TB: Latin died ten years later. TV: I think the only thing it helped me with is learning French. TB: Base for languages? TV: Yeah, German. I you know, I've studied German. I've studied Russian, studied some other languages. You know how to parse sends a subject, adjective, adverb, that type of thing. You can go into different languages and that was the other great thing about the public school system and taking English was that they took. We took grammar. So you would take it was called parsing, so you would take a sentence in English and identify the subject that a squiggly line, the verb with one bracket for adjectives, square brackets for clauses that but the case is accusative, nominative, that sort of thing. And you really learn skills for almost any language, so this would have been about 2015 in Toronto. I took German cases are very important in German and I was the only I was the oldest person in the class I was the only person who understood when the professor was saying, well, in this particular case, this is the object and it. But it's an object of the preposition, not the verb you know and we went into that and all the younger people in the class of single how do you understand it? All of this stuff, it just clicked because my brother went to school five years after I did, and the grammar study had already changed from forgetting about subject-verb. Just look at the sentence and learn it. TB: So can you go a little bit back to Frosh week? It sounded like all these people, you know, all these people are coming from different backgrounds? TV: Yeah, all over from Ontario. TB: They're broken away from the nest of their parents, and it just seemed like it was a wild party. Do you remember what it was like? You were in a dorm, so it was a party? TV: It was absolutely a party, party, party and you know whichever group that you belong to. You know, it was very difficult to study the group. TB: You belong to the group, the people on your floor that you were assigned to? TV: Yeah,, let's put it this way. All right, the favorite thing was let's skip class. Oh my God. TB: Right. TV: You know, high school. You can't. You get a detention. At university, no one is checking it, so they're in this? Oh, it's not good. You know, let's skip class today and you know, go down to the penny for a beer or whatever it is, right? It got to the point where at the end of the second semester in 3rd year where you have to sit down with your professors and decide on what the subject is for your essay or whatever it is. Why would show up and the professor would look at me and say who are you? I have never seen you before, right? And as a result, I was called into the Dean's office and I was told point blank. Sorry, we're not going to allow you to go on to the 4th year program because your marks are a disaster for 30, for 30-year. Ohhh, my gosh, just like Alex Trebek who got a second chance. TB: you pleaded. TV; I know, I pleaded. And I pleaded and I said, look, this is would be the end of my world. You know, I could never go back home if this happened to me, you know? Please, please, please give me a chance. So, they said. All right. Well, put you on probation. So first, first term, 4th year you're on probation. If you don't get over 65% in everything you know we won't allow you to proceed. Well, did I learn no more parties on Friday, Saturday, Sunday? Totally in the library all the time reading, doing my essays studying, regardless of what my friends said. So, the end of the term, uh, the officers were in the arts building the old arts building. That's where you had your nicer things were just starting to be computerized. Admins, admin, admin for administration. Obviously, we didn't. TB: Ordinary people didn't have computers. TV; So when I went to meet my advisor, I hadn't received my marks yet, because there's always a month delay before you get the paper thing in the mail. So I have scheduled a meeting with my advisor. He said, OK, well, this is the moment of truth. TB: Your marks? TV: I'm gonna click in your file number, and all of the marks are filed now. So this is the moment of truth, and I'm just sitting there saying oh my God. Then the course they came in sort of what you said, 95, 86. You were a little bit uncertain, even though. No, no, I was just, you know, you know. And she's meeting them 95, 85, you know, 82. TB: You did it. TV: I did it, and from that moment on I knew what studying was all about, but that became a very important moment in my life, in the sense of second chances. So, this would have been the year 2004. When I was in Toronto, I had so many different jobs and I don't know if you want to get into that, but at one point I was teaching public relations in a three-year program at Durham College in Oshawa. I lived in Toronto. I commuted so I had a three-year program and so I had students that just came out of high school or I had people who were adults, who were changing their careers. So what I saw was there were many, many students in my first-year class that had trouble adjusting to skipping classes the way I did, you know, goofed around and I could have kicked them out of the program. I had that same serious talk with him. And you know what? Mostly when they graduated, many of them, they were the stars, and won all the awards, and some of the people who were excelling in their first year never graduated in 3rd year, right? So I remember the convocation at one point for after, you know, at the end of the school year and at that college and all of the professors were sitting on the stage behind and then all of the students are named and they come up and they get their diploma and also they get their awards. So we're sitting there and some of my students are coming up in a say, yes, and well, I kicked her out of my classroom. You know, I suspended him for a week because he, you know, he wasn't adjusting. So the little bit of discipline in the talks worked. The second chance seemed to be really working, so the big value that I get from audible, you, and my own experience was in life. You need to give people a second chance and apply standards. TB: Yeah, yeah. Apply standards and have a serious talk. TV: Yeah, but don't just write them off. You have to explore. You know, an opportunity. So that was one of the big, big takeaways from (the university of) Ottawa. TB: If I can just go back to the partying of the early years as one subject, I haven't gone into that, and you can feel free not to answer for whatever reason. But you know the hippie, the element of the free love movement, the pill, and everything else you know what I mean, there was a lot of alcohol and campus. You were talking about recreational judge drugs. To what extent was there, OK, a hook-up culture? TV: OK. Actually, to tell you. OK, so I've always been gay, but I was never active until much later in life and I have to say that in my group. We were not aware that there was any sexuality going on in residence or on the campus. I think we were once in a while. We heard a story about, you know, people, you know, a couple hooking up or here. But in my particular group, no, there was no, no. It was more like goofing off and all that sort of thing, but no hookups, and sexuality was not really that evident in in our group. And it was perfect for me because one of the things that is not really openly discussed in many European families, that generation right- is sexuality. So I never had a discussion with my parents about sexuality until my God, my 40s, when I went home and we had that discussion about being gay. TB: Do you think they suspected? TV: You know, of course, parents know their children. TB: They didn't wanna confirm, but they don't . . . TV: I think they were just parking, you know, park it on the side and don't deal with it and don't. . . TB: Yeah. TV: So, do you want to hear this? I don't know if you want to hear that story, but that's really not related to Ottawa. OK? TB: Well, you can tell whatever stories you want, but one of the things you mention, you were really a Francophile. TV: Yeah. TB: And the impression I got from other people I've interviewed so far, and I'm just at the beginning of the process, that anglophones and francophones, were relatively segregated in the sense that that the class work, there were English and French classes like today. And you know, there was some interaction in the dorms, there was the meeting of anglophones and francophones. TV: Absolutely. I would say that in residence there was no differentiation between francophones and anglophones. Everyone mixed, particularly if you were having lunch or dinner at the cafeteria, you never knew who you were sitting with, but it was camaraderie. And you know, you had many really interesting situations where you had anglophones who didn't speak a word of French, and you had francophones, you had some francophones who didn't speak a word of French (meant English). And to give you an example, one of the great things in residence was ordering a pizza at midnight. TB: That is so universal. TV: Yeah. So, I remember, one day I was responsible for taking the order and there was one guy in our group who was a francophone, who did not speak any English. So my friends at that point were more or less high school French with a little bit of advancement here. And I remember speaking to him and confirming with him what do you want on your pizza? TB: OK. TV: And he clearly told me that the only thing he wanted on his pizza was anchovies. And I looked at him again and I said, Are you sure? I'm Schwab, you know, like in this is what you want? So, the orders came in, and he gets his pizza, and he opens his box, and he has a fit because all it is cheese and anchovies and I said, but that's what you told me. And I asked you several times. So once in a while, like you know . . . TB: Lost in translation. TV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other game in residence that was a lot of fun; and the radio stations and the school came on to it, was we would phone the radio station and say this is the University of Ottawa calling, and all classes are canceled tomorrow. It's a snow day and they would broadcast it over the radio saying that all classes were canceled at the University of Ottawa, right, and it caused total chaos. So finally, the radio stations in the university got smart and I think there was a code number that the university would give the radio station to assure them that it was a valid OK, a valid thing, right? So yeah, we got away with a couple of calls about snow days. TB: You're gonna be a big star for the students. Cause a lot of things you've said are very insightful. We're dealing with society from within, and I just got to go over some stuff that I think I was good. TB: Yeah. TV: And then you can get. TB: Maybe follow up. TV: I just wanted to say a couple of things. So you know, coming to university; the University of Ottawa, of course, as you said the early 70s was a very important time in the world, of transition and just some of the events that are remembered that are related to that in Ottawa was November 1971, they were doing nuclear tests in Alaska and Chittka was the island and there was a lot of turmoil and anti-nuclear movement. And this was my first political expression, and it happened. And we organized ourselves into a demonstration and went to the American Embassy. And I remember having this sign that said bomb Washington, DC, not Chittka! So that was my, you know, first political approach tests. TV: Then, in April 72, Nixon came to Ottawa and he came from the airport. And his limousine went by the driveway just down there. So, all of us ran from the residence down to the driveway to wave as his limo went by. So, I just remember that like a friendly wave, yes, I think it was a friendly wave at that point because, you know, he was the President of the United States. And although we protested this and that Canadians are thought generation was still very much in awe. This was the Big Brother, and we were the smaller TB: OK, because when Trump and Bush came, they got a welcome too. TV: September 72, the Russia-Canada hockey game. TB: Yeah. TV: We were all glued to the television sets in residence for that particular game, and it came across in the afternoon. I think it wasn't an evening broadcast because it was live and when they won and that final goal was scored, the whole campus emptied out downtown with Canadian flags and people were running all over the place. So that was an event that I will never, never forget. TV: Then there was a 1972 the election federal election. Pierre Trudeau was reelected. But it was, I think, with a minority government at that point. So the political parties were very active on campus and recruiting and I was recruited to work for John Turner in AltaVista. Was that was sort of his writing and that's how I sort of became really involved with the Liberal Party at that point TB: door to door? TV: Yes, canvassing and knocking on doors. And you know, it was a really interesting canvassing technique for Turner. So, we as young people would go to an apartment building and knock on all the doors, saying John Turner would be in the lobby in 40 minutes. So, if you want to meet him, come downstairs in 40 minutes and you can talk to him. Then he would come down and we be at the next building, knocking on doors sort of things. So, it was really, really organized and he at that point was looked at as the JFK in waiting like the, you know, they don't of course, you know, Trudeau was the star and everything, but he was already there. But Turner was sort of looked at as the, you know, the leader in waiting. TB: Yeah, yeah. Let's see. The History Department personnel or what I would love to know more. TV: The History department, yeah. So, there were three particular professors of note that I remember from the History Department. Canadian history was what I was studying. There was Jacques Monet and I think he was a. . . TB: an oblate? TV: Yes, an oblate, leftover, and his specialty was the monarchy and the Constitution. And I could not get over that because one of the values that stayed with me from my European background was monarchy. What the heck is that? Right? And, so I've always ended very British, so I've always rejected that. So I was sitting. . . TB: Did they give you Geoffrey Elton to read? TV: Yes, all those types of history. And he became the specialist on the monarchy in Canada for royal visits, and the governor. And I think he had some sort of a book with the Governor General or something like that. And then there was a Philemon Wallet. I think he was a brother as well. I'm not sure, but his specialty was French Canadian nationalism and politics, so he was the one that really gave me an understanding of the Quiet Revolution and an understanding the October Crisis and that sort of thing. Then there was John Trent, who I think was one of the longest-reining professors at the University of Ottawa, and he was a Constitutionalist as well, so I remember taking constitutional history with him. And then there was Dave Broadfoot from Toronto, and he was the first socialist professor that I really ran into. And he wrote a book on the Depression and Canada, which is the Bible Broadfoot on Hatch. (verify) So those are the professors that I sort of . . . TB: There was some Marxism on campus, but it was more in the social sciences? TV: It's worse than I think, it must have been more in the social sciences because really, it wasn't really that evident in the history side because it was past political history, and since I didn't get any Russian history or maybe it came out of that or I didn't study European history as such. But in Canadian history, although there was socialism and Marxism in Canadian history, it really was social history more than political history. But of course, today we know it was a very significant movement now in in not only in Canada but in the United States, that has more or less been overlooked. But I think that's something that social history is really looking into. TB: If I could ask you some basic questions that I think students might be very interested in. I mean, one of the things that students need to do in their advanced courses, in their third and fourth years, you have to write a term paper. So describe to me one of the term paper assignments that one of these professors would assign to you? TB: OK. One good example and this would have been with Wallette. I believed in my studies that the Act of Confederation in 1867 was the Union, you know, of the Canadas. But in my mind, it was the separation of French and English because Quebec became its own province. Previously to 1867, Quebec was part of the Union of Upper Canada on Lower Canada, and he vehemently disagreed with that because he liked to focus on the Union, I wanted to write an essay saying that in fact, in many ways the Confederation Act of 1867 was an act of disunion as much as it was union. TB: So where did you have this debate? TV: In his office and his office in the little building with the crooked floors. And. TB: Yeah. TV: And he just would not hear of it. And then finally, somehow I guess you know he said. OK, I did so I wrote my essay. I made my point, and if I remember I got a very, you know, I got a very decent mark for it and that was the point that I've always wanted to emphasize in that particular area. TB: How long was this term paper? TV: This term paper would have been. 30 pages type double spaced. TB: How many sources? TV: Oh, come on. You know all those days, you know what in those days you go into the, you know, you go to the library says, why should, yeah. In those days, you go to the library with an index box, some recipe cards and elastic bands. TB: OK. TV: And you spend days and days leading these books and noting on these recipe cards quote page font. You know this. So at the end of your research, you've got like a box of recipe cards like this, and you have to sit down and play exact solid hair. Map it out on. You know how on heaven's name are you gonna put this together? TB: Yeah. TV: OK, that was the challenge. And then in resident support, when is the best time to do this? After midnight, when people and you know, and so you're sitting there and you're typing. TB: You went to the lounge to find a big table, which to arrange your cards? TV: Well, no. I had them on the floor on the floor of my residence. And then, of course, you know, at 1:00 o'clock in the morning you're typing because the essay is due the next day and you leave things OK? So, it's like thing your roommates sleeping real people are coming knocking on. They're just, can you please tape your bell? You know, that sort of thing. So yeah, so, that's the way we that's the way you did your essays. TB: These students are so spoiled they just do not understand. We have to go into detail. TV: Yeah. TB: Explain how a typewriter works and how TV: Underwood was the brand. TB: OK. TV: And you know what? And then the only way that you could correct the mistake was by having this liquid, a white liquid that you could put on it. TB: liquid paper! TV: Whatever it is. And, oh, but just as an aside, and that was the course of working in government was if you were writing a letter for someone’s signature, you made a mistake in the last sentence. You have to start all over again because you cannot use liquid paper for a formal document. So, in those days it was a pain in the back. Let me tell you, and then buying ribbons. TB: What about footnotes when you decide to change. . . TV: Yeah, I'm just wrong. My God, you have to. And let's put it this way. When I was doing, you know in the mid 2000s and doing my masters in social history and Toronto. What a difference. My God, you've got everything on your laptop and clean, clean, clean, clean. It's there. And now. Yeah, this paragraph and shift TB: And now you have this, this algorithm, this chat GPT. TV: Actually, you know what? I've actually tried it, and you know, and sometimes it comes up with an answer. You know, I'm new and I'm just learning about this. Yeah, or sorry, I don't give medical advice. You know, there are certain, but yeah, but umm, I think I, you know and I know that professors have a very different view of this. But the chatbot GPT you know, as long as you as the student understand what the chatbot is providing you with and you agree with it and you can source it and then identify that particular source. I wouldn't have a problem with it and I think maybe that's the compromise that, you know, scholars are gonna have to come to say that. TB: Yes, you can use artificial intelligence. TV: You can't deny it, but as long as you are able to go back beyond the well-artificial capture TB: The problem is that the professors are still in the 1970s, the students already looking to 2040 when they don't have to do any work. TV: You know you have to sort of. When again I wasn't that much of an academic professor. German college. It was more or less a, you know, communications course. And II did teach them communications history. And by the way, Mackenzie King, our first Prime Minister, was the first practitioner. Public relations in North America because who was the rich millionaire with the coal mines in the United States? TB: Dale Carnegie? TV: I think it was Carnegie or there was another one. Anyways, he went down. There were coal mine strikes and Mackenzie King went down and taught him how to treat his employees, how to negotiate the strikes, and as things such as you know, what you have to have family picnics. TB: The Harlan County War? TV: Yeah, used to have that family picnics. And you have to do this so our Prime Minister and he was like an incredible Prime Minister during the war as well. If you go back into actually studying what he did, all of the committees and organizations that he had to set up internally within his government during the IT is like totally amazing what this man did. He's identified as a Kook and all that sort of thing, consulting ghosts and everything. But the man was a genius, an organizational, administrative genius. TB: Yeah. We were promised some stories about women on campus. That was one big theme, alright? TV: This goes to orientation week, so orientation week is organized by in residence by the senior guys in the men's residence. At that point, we didn't have, you know, Coed residence. And so I was in Marshall, and I forget what the women's residence was called; Tabaret? TB: No. TV: yes, Stanton, and there were two towers. Men, women, and then the cafeteria joined on two towers underneath, right with a pool room. And that's where it was, you know, mingling. So the seniors in the men's residence organized orientation week, so there were a couple of highlights of orientation week. The first one was the panty raid. Talk about sexism. Alright, so the panty raid, so the senior guys in the men's residence, would you know, lined us all up the newbies and we would have been maybe 50. TB: Hmm. TV: I said OK, so we are now going to do a panty raid. TB: So what you need to do is you need to storm the women's dorm and you need to get into a room and steal a pair of panties and come back and you can't come back until you bring some panties back. TV: Oh my God. So, this I'm telling you, I am not exaggerating, folks. This was totally out of control. TB: Like storming the castle. TV: Oh where they project but it was totally unknown. Give control. So, in order to get into some of these dorms for the women to open at one point, I remember being in a hall where the guys got the water hose, and the fire hose out of the wall and started just blasting it at doors. Unfortunately, this one girl opened the door and the fire hose is going like right into her right into her residence room. People storm in and get their panties. At one point I remember looking at another open door and somehow somebody had taken honey or molasses and poured it all over. Somebody staring. TB: The women didn’t resist? TV: Oh well, I don't think we. I don't think we were there long. Yeah, you know, it's like grab and run. TB: So you hadn't shoplifted before? TV: Well, no. And honestly, I wish I could say that I got a pair of panties I don't remember. OK, I don't remember, but I think I think in the back of my mind, I really knew that it was wrong because I'll tell you one thing, I've always looked at myself as a feminist because even in the so I started my first employment in Parliament in 1974 full time, and at that point, when women and men had different salaries and you know, but you know what, in my entire life, I have never internally differentiated between a colleague being male or female. They've always been colleagues, so I wouldn't understand the difference in salaries. TB: So many people tell me that that they, didn't have this gender bias. TV: No. TB: But we did hear a story last night. One of the female students was talking about how when she would walk around campus they would whistle and pinch her butt. TV: Uh, that, you know, like that I that I didn't see that. I didn't see, but again, there were two types of guys. I think there's like the not saying an enlightened but sort of the oblivious to gender type of people that I associate with. But there was always the type of guy, and once in awhile you meet one of these men. Adults today, where they refer to their the wife, Umm. And so, the remember there was one guy in our group who was going out with somebody and he always said my girl never used her name or something. Then I remember one time I said, I said, does she have a name? Like, why are you always saying my girl? What is her name? Use her name for Heaven’s sakes, right? TB: What did he say? TV: He got very angry and told me to mind my own business, but I just found that, you know, or the wave, umm, uh now. So the panty raid was one thing, then let me tell you two things. You're gonna second thoughts about sharing yesterday, so we ran to the market and we got live lobsters. TB: Oh no. TV: Somehow we got into the women's dorm and went to the washroom with some of the girls were taking showers, and put the live lobsters into the shower through behind the curtain. And the screen. Can you imagine that? So yeah, I wouldn't wait. Yeah. No, that sounds like a plan. OK. TV: And I did this. I admit that I did this so 4th year when I was on the team of organizing. TB: You were studious. TV: Yeah. Well, no. Would have been. It would. Yeah, I would have been where I had to be studious. You still? I don't remember. So then we said, OK, you know what? We're gonna do with the with this new crew. So we went into the washroom toilets and we took peanut butter. We smeared it all over the seats so it looked like you know what? Then we called the guys in line them up in the Washington. Alright, who did this? This is disgusting that I walked up to the toilet seat like this. Right. You know what? It's. Can you imagine that? And the other thing in the girl's residence was putting Saran wrap underneath the toilet of seat. I've asked to be like the oldest joke. Ohh, you know they didn't notice it. Yeah. Well, of course they did, because you know sort of thing before they sat down. They would know. Ohh yes, later then just. I'm gonna give you two other little stories. One was so these people from small towns, rabble rousers. Uh. Fire. Fire was. I don't know. They were. This particular group was just like into fire, so 4:00 o'clock in the residence woman's residents, usually people come back from class, go up the elevator, go to the rooms, dump off their books, come down the elevator to go into the cafeteria. So these guys went to the second floor and stopped the elevator and I was down on the 1st floor to see what being told to. You need to stay on the 1st floor and see what happens. So there's a mob of people waiting on the 1st floor get into the elevator. The elevator comes down from the 2nd floor. The people move forward to get in. They had stuff newspaper on the floor of the elevator and set a fire. So the doors opened and the leaves are coming up from, you know, and people Ruby forward to get in the elevator. I could not believe that second fire story. They took bed sheets and they tied them together and hung them out the window on the side of the building. So the bed sheets went down four floors, then somebody went down to the bottom of the floor to the floor, where the bed sheet was, and lit it on fire. So that the bed sheets were on fire all the way up to the, you know, so, these were some absolutely unbelievable. . . I don't know where the ideas came from. I can't believe that these people weren't arrested or expelled from residence. TB: I have a question about it. It seems like the generation before the 60s generation, they did some of these stunts and there seemed to be a purpose for it, like fighting for social justice. Your generation seemed to be like animal house. TV: It was just, yeah, playing. So this is, let me tell you that is I've never seen the movie because that's not the type of movie I would ever go to see to begin with, but from what people have talked about, yeah, it was like goons. It was just absolutely out of control. TB: Craziness and I don't know, is it youth acting out their wild oats? TV: Sewing up I think. Basically, I think it had to be made. I don't think everyone shared that particular view. I have a feeling it may have been mental problem or you know, psychology TB: Were they more anglophones? TV: These well, they were anglophones from small anglophone town. The francophones were more studious, more studious. I would say well from the group that I knew and the group that I would hang out with, you know that was my choice. But no, I think that though this craziness, I think maybe it was something to do with the they're bup bringing or I can't say that it was like a value by the time other than it was insanity and maybe it was a branch of the orientation week where basically people were told to be crazy. TB: Bbut they were rebels without a cause. There was no. . . TV: Yeah, they were. Absolutely. They were. I think they were just crazy out to do. Business type of thing where you've testified very long. TB: I don't wanna tire you out, but if you have at least 5 minutes, I'd have a few more questions about the department. TV: No, no, absolutely ask me. TB: I just wanted to just double check. I just wanted to return to something you mention before about fashion. TV; Ohh great. TB: OK, great. TV: So wooden clogs TB: Klompen? TV: Yeah. So the from Europe about two years after everyone was wearing Caso was in Sweden at one point. At that point, Guy family there, everyone on campus was wearing wooden clogs. TB: You don't see them anymore, right? TV: But yes, so it wouldn't clogs bell bottom jeans and then cowboy boots and the cowboy boots were very special. They were the brown, tall boots with the square toe. Because the square toe would go into the is sterile. Disturb. TV: Alright, but So what? You would have to do what I was taught from these people, from the small town. I had to get pair of these boots to be cool, but to be really cool you buy the boots with the square toe. Then you have to soak the boots in water until they're soft. Take a hammer and then round out the square toe so it's round. So then you end up with the same cowboy boot. TV: The type of thing food, the highlight of the cafeteria food, you know? Ohh my, it turns my stomach Hawaiian pizza. Can you imagine pizza with pineapple on it? I don't know, but that was the go to invented, OK? And if you were sophisticated and you went out to a restaurant at that period, you would be ordering schedule Brionne for two. TB: OK. TV: Because you it only came for two, you would be drinking horrible sweet matuse wine. And for dessert, you would have Black Forest cake, Black Forest cake. That was like the top of it. You know, if you're going out on a date with that sort of thing, and I think I have said. Everything. TV: So you can ask me 5 the questions that you want.. TB: You're gonna be a star witness, so I wanna go a little bit more into. I just wanna go back to something that you just mentioned like the clothes you wore. So once you came to campus, you were your own person. You could choose your own clothes. Did your hair go down? Did your shave less? TV: Oh, you know what this where for one year. The rebellious year, when I didn't go to class and all that sort of thing. Yes, the hair came down to my shoulder. I was told when I went home for Christmas by all my relatives about parents that I looked like meathead on what was that program meathead? The American sitcom Edith and Archie Bunker. TB: Archie Bunker, all in the family. TV: Yeah, All in the Family. Yeah, meathead was the guy who married his daughter, right? So, the mustache I gained weight to that. I would look like meathead, so that's what I looked like. And then, yeah, the clogs, the bell bottoms and then, you know, basically sweatshirt or whatever it is. And that's how you dress. TB: So yeah, it seemed like there was a hair war like the teenagers or the the university students would wear it long and their parents would definitely comment on it. TV: It would be like the first thing when you came in the door, so that was kind of what it was. But Beatles started it right with The Beatles MOP. TB: Yeah. TV: Mop haircuts and then it became rather bohemian, I say. TB: But did the parents generation, did they view that a rejection of their culture? Or did they worry, what did this signify that you think? TV: I think parents very much understood. At one point, you know, after The Beatles became accepted that that I think what The Beatles did more than just give us great music and help people like me rebel against my parents’ culture and everything was they made my parents generation, except the shift of generations. I think with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and the long hair and the fashion, the pair, that generation finally realized- the postwar generation-that there had been a generational shift and that they that they no longer were. TB: So you had the Beatniks before. They were making some of these hippy ideas more mainstream and acceptable. They were transitioning into. TV: I think that, I think the Beatnik culture that is there was there are two parts to that, the elitist poetry and you know, the artistic group and then the general. Public kids that adopted some of the you know. So, living in Toronto and the 666768, the Yorkville Village which is now like one of the most expensive areas of the city was where all the coffee houses were. So, we would become weekend. So, what would happen is that you would dress up like a hippie on Saturday and Sunday and go and hang out there. TB: And then go back home and transform into the regular person. TV: Yeah, you know, so I think that was it, but no. But I think The Beatles helped and The Rolling Stones helped; the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah, they helped the post war generation to accept that the transition had been made. And in particular, when Boston Symphony and some of these orchestra started playing classical versions of Beatles songs, because previous to that, that the afterward generation, this is trash, this is garbage. It isn't even music. Well, we're in Arthur Fiedler started incorporating Beatles songs into his Sunday concerts, and they started playing that on the radio. All of a sudden that generation of my parents were saying, well, really TB: What about the relationship between music and dancing? Did your parents have an issue with dancing? TV: I think dancing is every generation. I think it's accepted by every generation. You have to keep up with the changes in dancers. I don't think dancers big as with music, right? Like I think it's an accepted thing that you've got to dance the latest dance craze that's part of dancing. TB: Did they feel that rock'n'roll was connected to sexuality in some ways, like there was a joke in in Michigan that you didn't have sex standing up because it could lead to dancing, like the ministers would forget if you promote. TV: Yeah, but isn't that the whole in the United States, the whole thing about, you know, black music bleeding juristic and I don't think we have that in Canada. I don't think that because you know, like Tian, Warwick and the Motown sound and all that that, you know, I was brought up in Toronto and yeah, it's we worship that. TB: Yeah. TV: And there was not a problem with. Don't think that or with Elvis. Maybe with Elvis Presley? From what I've read, you know the hips and all that sort of thing at the very beginning. Yeah, maybe that was a big issue, but that was sort of a little bit before, before my time. TB: Did you listen to funk music during those times? TV; What did I listen to? I'm trying to what I listened to was Bob Dylan here on campus and remember having his records, Neil Young, we worshipped because he just came out with his two big albums, right TB: Harvest? TV: That was the later one. Canada's Gordon Lightfoot. But definitely which rock wise it would have been Alice to be cool, right? So, you know, I had limited music experience in Toronto. So coming here, I learned to love Alice Cooper. You know that that type of thing, but just to get back to dancing and, you know, I don't wanna the sidetrack. TB: So you're saying about, we know, did did older generations present the changes in dance music and let's put it this way. TV: And when disco came in, I was in high school. Sorry, no, I was at Glendon College at that point. And the discos were in Yorkville as well. So I remember going out with my friends to this disco in Yorkville. And so we show up at this disco. We go into this disco, we get seated and we're ready to go on the dance floor.Lo and behold, my mother and father are dancing on the dance floor. TB: Hmm. TV: Ohh my God, I said. Let's get the hell out of here. I think it was called Applebee's or Apple bums or something like that. Yeah, that's so, I don't think parents. So they want they want to be cool. TBL Just five more minutes. Walk me into Monet’s classroom. How many women are there? How many men? How many people have long hair? What is the class like? TV: OK, so I don't think there were very many women in any of my Canadian history classes that I remember, but it was everybody basically looked the same. I think everyone had long hair. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: Or longish hair and most people were wearing clogs or, you know, it was sort of like it's a thing. TB: how big were the classes? TV: There were maybe 10 people, 11 people. There were a few classes held in a different building where there may have been 20 people at the most. One of the great things about classrooms and courses that you had to take was you had to take philosophy in order to get a history degree. TB: Critical Reasoning? TV: Ohhh my gosh did that come useful in life. Ohh my Lord. Absolutely. And that's what I've always said to people is you can tell the difference between someone who's taken philosophy and is university educated in someone who is just high school educated, because when you get into a discussion with somebody who hasn't been in university, everything they talk about was from personal experience. I saw I did. I heard my friend. TB: Did you know somebody from university? TV: Its ideas OK, it's not at all based on personal experience. You take an idea from somewhere and then you incorporate it into your argument or your discussion. It's very, very rarely is it based on personal experience, but yet people who don't have that benefit of that post secondary education are very much restricted to the real physical world. What they've experienced, what they've seen, that's the limit to their discussion. TB: Did you, when you were on campus, did you go to high culture places like the Arts Center, the cinemas? TV: Yes, that would go to the to the Art Center to see all of the French singers and this little church on the corner. TB: Sacre Coeur TV: So I could OK it burned down in 1978. I think when it was still going when I was here. They had a little coffee club in the basement. All and, you know French Canadian artists had a very limited area for gigs. TB: Mm-hmm. TV: And they're, you know, and they didn't earn all that much money. So all of the famous Quebec singers would come to this levia cloche, it was called, and they would sing in the basement. So, it was like money from that generation money clairac, he said. They'll Pierre and explode, Claude debois. Robert charlebois. And you know, so, you know, all these French singers and some absolutely. TB: Yeah. TV: And the running anglophones friends know those as well or yes, because the yeah, even the notorious gang, we would go down to, we would go, we we would go to that. But I was sort of the Francophile, leading the group, right? So, even once I graduated, when I was living here in Ottawa with my anglophone friends, I was always the guy who would say, OK, you know, Salvatore Adamo, you know, Saki is coming to the CNA. We've got to go and see him. Aznavour is coming. They called is coming. We must go and see, you know, even if you never heard of him, is important to go and see, right. TB: Yeah., I mean, you're gonna be a big star here. TV: I don't really. TBL You got you got us into some really important topics, TV: But definitely, you know, if you're talking about women and sexism, it was very much evident. TV: Umm. TB: In the values that that time, unfortunately, and I don't know what and again I'm trying to think, I don't think there were very many very many. I don't think there was a single history for Canadian history professor who was a female. No, at that particular time and the students who were talking less than 10%. Yeah. TV: And I I did have the only female professor that I had during my two years here . . I I took a course in Canadian literature which you believe it. She was from Dallas, TX with a heavy Texas accent and she said alright folks, you know this time of year I'd be at the Cotton Bowl and the Sun would be shining and and you know, blah blah blah. And now let's open our books and turn to page 59. We're gonna study a poem by Al Purdy. And you know what? And then I want you to read the poem on page 9 to 5. Leonard Cohen. Yeah, it was really interesting to have an American from. I don't know what she's doing. You know how she ended up studying Canadian literature? TB: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 95% of Canadians didn't even know who else heard he was at that point. Right? So yeah, so definitely even within faculty, there seemed to be a big lack of females and it could be the religious background at that point of the a lot of Jesus, the Jesuit tradition, classical studies at that point. But I tell you this university is fantastic. And I am so proud of it. I want, you know, I'm supporting it because it is contributing a lot and just walk along. Go to the cafeteria. Look at the young people you know. I was talking to a few of them yesterday when we were having lunch and you know there one guy was studied kinetics. I don't know, I think this is like chemistry, engineering or whatever it is, TB: It's human kinetics? TV: Yeah. So I said to him, I said, what in hell’s name do you wanna do with kinetics? And you said, well, I'm still trying to figure that one out. TB: Yeah, it's like movement at the body. TV: OK, there these electrical shocks and no, it has to do TB: Like we're kind of biomechanical wrecks cause we don't walk properly and everything else. TV: So, he could get into like sports fitness or something like that makes. TB: yeah. TV: Well, listen, I hope that I haven't. insulted anyone. Personally, I haven't mentioned names. -END INTERVIEW Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vares, Thomas (interview) Description An account of the resource Testimonial about growing up in an Estonian family in postwar Toronto, moving to Ottawa to pursue a fascination with francophone language and culture, and the wild experiences of the first year of study as well as nurturing environment of the Department of History. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-11-10 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-M39RtSf81k?si=NhAqWguW1AbmYX9Z" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Canadian History Dorms Gender Hippies Party Culture Popular Music Second-Wave Feminism Sexuality Student Life University of Ottawa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Campus Voices 1970-1975 Description An account of the resource Collection of oral histories from witnesses to North American campuses Relation A related resource https://sites.google.com/view/lifeoncampus/campus-voices Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mokhtare Zadeh, Tara Location The location of the interview Toronto, Ontario, Canada (via Teams) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:6.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'm testing it right now and it doesn't seem the echo is affecting it. 0:0:6.470 --> 0:0:8.20
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So, OK, there we go. 0:3:19.180 --> 0:3:22.750
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So I'll start the recording process now. 0:3:29.880 --> 0:3:30.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:3:30.980 --> 0:3:36.880
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll begin with the first section, which is impact of popular culture. 0:3:37.810 --> 0:3:48.990
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have argued that television, Hollywood, popular music in a consumer culture built around automobiles created a more integrated North American popular culture. 0:3:50.300 --> 0:3:57.550
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We want to better understand how students relate together with popular culture. 0:3:57.980 --> 0:4:3.320
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So there were less electronics in Canadian society during the 1970s. 0:4:3.690 --> 0:4:8.970
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How was your leisure time structured, or what did students do for fun in the 1970s? 0:4:11.740 --> 0:4:13.30
Dave
We weren't on our cell phones. 0:4:16.820 --> 0:4:17.310
Dave
Golly. 0:4:20.200 --> 0:4:21.310
Dave
I've umm. 0:4:22.330 --> 0:4:26.40
Dave
I had a car so I did and it kept me pretty poor. 0:4:26.270 --> 0:4:28.540
Dave
You either had a car or you could have a social life. 0:4:28.630 --> 0:4:29.420
Dave
I picked a car. 0:4:31.250 --> 0:4:31.780
Dave
I didn't. 0:4:31.870 --> 0:4:36.910
Dave
I didn't go out a lot so I I I I didn't live on campus. 0:4:36.920 --> 0:4:37.940
Dave
I lived off campus. 0:4:37.950 --> 0:4:41.460
Dave
My my first degree, but there I didn't. 0:4:44.90 --> 0:4:47.60
Dave
I meet a lot of people there. 0:4:47.70 --> 0:4:47.320
Dave
I'm. 0:4:47.330 --> 0:4:58.880
Dave
I'm not that at that time wasn't really going or Calgarian, so I don't think I I didn't go and hang out to to any of the bars or whatever busy studying too. 0:4:58.890 --> 0:4:59.60
Dave
A lot. 0:4:59.700 --> 0:5:2.230
Dave
Umm and I go home on. 0:5:2.320 --> 0:5:6.60
Dave
So I lived in Toronto at the time, so I I'd go home from London to Toronto. 0:5:8.40 --> 0:5:11.140
Dave
Many weekends, I think at that time I had a girlfriend. 0:5:12.980 --> 0:5:15.470
Dave
So any of the social stuff I did was probably in Toronto. 0:5:18.510 --> 0:5:19.280
Dave
I didn't really. 0:5:19.290 --> 0:5:26.880
Dave
So I lived off campus, so I didn't do a lot of on campus stuff and I didn't really go out and hang out a lot off campus. 0:5:27.570 --> 0:5:28.280
Dave
This, I said. 0:5:28.520 --> 0:5:29.970
Dave
If you had a car, you were poor. 0:5:31.940 --> 0:5:32.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:5:31.680 --> 0:5:37.660
Dave
I put myself through university mostly so it was whatever my summer job gave me in terms of money. 0:5:37.670 --> 0:5:41.440
Dave
That's what I lived on, so it was pretty, pretty Spartan. 0:5:42.880 --> 0:5:52.900
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I know you said that you didn't spend much time on campus, but what were the most popular hangout spots on and off campus that you are aware of? 0:5:54.180 --> 0:5:58.780
Dave
It was a every campus has a bar pub, so I'd go there a bit. 0:6:1.260 --> 0:6:2.410
Dave
Let's say I don't really think. 0:6:2.420 --> 0:6:4.350
Dave
I mean, there'd be football games. 0:6:4.360 --> 0:6:10.240
Dave
You know the the the people go to umm, you really hang out that much? 0:6:10.600 --> 0:6:14.310
Dave
Umm I I hadn't met that many people. 0:6:14.540 --> 0:6:15.200
Dave
Men or women? 0:6:19.30 --> 0:6:21.870
Dave
Yeah, I don't really didn't really do that much on campus, to be honest. 0:6:23.360 --> 0:6:23.940
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:6:23.980 --> 0:6:27.360
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you attend any live music events during your university years? 0:6:28.640 --> 0:6:29.150
Dave
They had. 0:6:29.900 --> 0:6:33.50
Dave
Yeah, there was a concert venue off campus. 0:6:33.250 --> 0:6:39.510
Dave
A few shows dating with Murray McLaughlin was one vice Canadian folk singer. 0:6:40.160 --> 0:6:44.560
Dave
A few of those, but again, I'm I didn't spend a lot of money on that. 0:6:44.570 --> 0:6:45.880
Dave
So a few things. 0:6:46.670 --> 0:6:51.590
Dave
Mostly it'd be like a, a, a concert or something like that rock concert. 0:6:53.110 --> 0:6:55.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so I'll be skipping the next question. 0:6:56.70 --> 0:7:3.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the original question after that is did anglophones and francophones date each other during the 1970s. 0:7:3.530 --> 0:7:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
But since Western isn't a bilingual institution, I'll change that question. 0:7:8.210 --> 0:7:16.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did anglophones and basically anyone else, whether it was like international students or anything, did they date each other in the 1970s? 0:7:17.690 --> 0:7:32.690
Dave
Album I I think so and back then it was a the university was a lot more white and Western is a is is or has been probably still is known as a fairly well off university. 0:7:32.700 --> 0:7:39.600
Dave
They the the women on campus, usually we're pretty from from from some money so. 0:7:41.910 --> 0:7:50.990
Dave
But I I don't think there was much in the way of uh, you know, mixed cultures or races, but I don't think anybody thought much of it. 0:7:51.0 --> 0:7:55.900
Dave
Like if you you just you hung out with these people in class or you date them. 0:7:55.910 --> 0:7:58.140
Dave
I don't think there's any issue that I don't think it wasn't. 0:7:58.150 --> 0:8:0.730
Dave
It wasn't big or or small or anything like it was just something. 0:8:0.740 --> 0:8:4.680
Dave
Ohh well, you know you're you're dating, you know, black girl, brown girl or whatever. 0:8:4.690 --> 0:8:6.50
Dave
I don't only get ever matter to anybody. 0:8:7.40 --> 0:8:8.150
Dave
You have to remember, was the. 0:8:8.310 --> 0:8:9.490
Dave
That was the early 70s. 0:8:9.500 --> 0:8:20.610
Dave
So when I did my physics degree and and things were pretty like Toronto was still pretty white back then, it wasn't that there was a lot of other cultures and so on. 0:8:20.620 --> 0:8:22.490
Dave
It wasn't that we didn't know about them. 0:8:22.500 --> 0:8:23.570
Dave
It just wasn't that common. 0:8:23.580 --> 0:8:26.980
Dave
So Western was kind of a microcosm of that. 0:8:27.60 --> 0:8:31.440
Dave
So there there wasn't a lot of different cultures and that was. 0:8:33.160 --> 0:8:35.70
Dave
50 years ago so. 0:8:34.950 --> 0:8:35.90
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You. 0:8:37.600 --> 0:8:43.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so we use the term party culture to refer to social activities outside the classroom. 0:8:44.80 --> 0:8:48.410
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How would you describe the party culture on campus during the 1970s? 0:8:52.100 --> 0:9:0.310
Dave
Well, by the time my, my second degree I I started I started 1979, I graduated 92. 0:9:1.120 --> 0:9:7.290
Dave
Umm, there was a lot, a lot more party atmosphere than I think that much later. 0:9:8.20 --> 0:9:14.760
Dave
But again, I I lived off campus in my PhD degree or my my physiotherapy degree. 0:9:14.770 --> 0:9:17.470
Dave
I was married at the time and my first daughter. 0:9:17.480 --> 0:9:23.480
Dave
Your Matt's mom was two weeks old when I first started. 0:9:24.100 --> 0:9:31.600
Dave
Umm my physiotherapy degree, so there wasn't a lot of social life that I kind of participated in. 0:9:33.340 --> 0:9:39.870
Dave
I think most of a lot of my classmates, it was a professional degree, so a lot of my classmates, we got to know each other, we hung out. 0:9:39.880 --> 0:9:44.360
Dave
We had a lot of class parties, umm and love love. 0:9:44.370 --> 0:9:49.740
Dave
The kids would go to off campus to some of the bars and stuff, so I think that was fairly common all through the 70s. 0:9:52.930 --> 0:9:56.250
Dave
I mean, there's only so much on campus, and you're gonna do most of the social life. 0:9:56.300 --> 0:10:0.740
Dave
You went off, grabbed a bus with your buddies or whatever when off campus. 0:10:3.60 --> 0:10:7.0
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did the student body think about the Vietnam War? 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:13.850
Dave
Yeah, it's a. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.930
Dave
It's a while ago I I don't. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:17.950
Dave
It wasn't umm. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:22.290
Dave
I don't think it's a big thing. 0:10:22.300 --> 0:10:23.800
Dave
I mean, it wasn't something we talked about. 0:10:24.900 --> 0:10:28.110
Dave
You knew what was going on, but I don't think it was. 0:10:28.340 --> 0:10:36.370
Dave
I don't recall it being a big topic of conversation or or, you know, getting together and having, you know, heated conversations about whether right or wrong. 0:10:36.380 --> 0:10:37.560
Dave
I would or whatever. Umm. 0:10:38.430 --> 0:10:42.100
Dave
I I at that like and by the by the late 70s. 0:10:42.110 --> 0:10:43.130
Dave
I don't think it was a. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.950
Dave
Not really a topic of conversation at all, and it wasn't it. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.50
Dave
It was South of the border, so it wasn't as much our problem as it was. 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.50
Dave
I've had friends from high school who went. 0:10:55.620 --> 0:10:58.820
Dave
Listed in the states, but it wasn't really our problem. 0:10:58.830 --> 0:11:1.650
Dave
I don't think was a lot of conversation about it. 0:11:2.280 --> 0:11:4.570
Dave
The way probably was in the state. 0:11:6.110 --> 0:11:12.250
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so rock'n'roll artist in the 1960s have promoted various forms of protest. 0:11:12.590 --> 0:11:17.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did your parents see rock'n'roll as rebellious or just some sort of pop form of popular music? 0:11:20.560 --> 0:11:24.580
Dave
My folks are pretty straight at least, so they there was. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.310
Dave
I thought there was a little bit of rebellion or dollars. 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:28.930
Dave
They weren't awful, but they were. 0:11:29.80 --> 0:11:33.110
Dave
Mom and Dad were straight down the line, so yes, I would say they were. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.150
Dave
They would consider it a bit rebellious, uh? 0:11:39.620 --> 0:11:42.230
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so some sorry. 0:11:40.670 --> 0:11:45.640
Dave
That dad dad used to joke that they were there to be some music on the radio. 0:11:45.650 --> 0:11:48.200
Dave
He he'd say those guys aren't gonna finish at the same time. 0:11:48.210 --> 0:11:50.650
Dave
Are they all the positions is there? 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:54.110
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:11:52.370 --> 0:11:54.380
Dave
Sorry, yeah, didn't much show. 0:11:57.50 --> 0:12:8.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So some youth culture voices of the 1970s promoted taking recreational drugs to what extent to what extent were recreational drugs available on campus during the 1970s? 0:12:10.930 --> 0:12:11.330
Dave
It wasn't. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.790
Dave
It wasn't a big thing. 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.580
Dave
I mean it it there are kids are kids. 0:12:19.170 --> 0:12:22.160
Dave
If you wanted pot, you could you always do somebody. 0:12:22.170 --> 0:12:22.800
Dave
You could get it. 0:12:22.810 --> 0:12:24.170
Dave
It was still illegal then. Obviously. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:26.170
Dave
Umm yeah. 0:12:26.900 --> 0:12:28.190
Dave
I I don't think. 0:12:30.990 --> 0:12:31.330
Dave
I don't know. 0:12:31.340 --> 0:12:33.120
Dave
There's a lot of regular outside of part of. 0:12:33.130 --> 0:12:34.770
Dave
There's a lot of recreational drug use. 0:12:34.810 --> 0:12:36.370
Dave
And even cocaine was not. 0:12:38.420 --> 0:12:41.790
Dave
Probably by the 80s or 90s, cocaine became more calm. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.140
Dave
And but I don't think, umm, I didn't know anybody. 0:12:45.150 --> 0:12:45.520
Dave
Who? 0:12:45.590 --> 0:12:47.240
Dave
Who knew anybody kind of thing? 0:12:47.250 --> 0:12:47.480
Dave
Who? 0:12:47.490 --> 0:12:48.60
Dave
Who used it? 0:12:48.70 --> 0:12:48.880
Dave
Or or or or. 0:12:48.890 --> 0:12:49.800
Dave
No, but I mean it was. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:55.520
Dave
Was around I'm sure, but I think that the most common thing would have been marijuana. 0:12:55.530 --> 0:12:57.450
Dave
But again, you had to. 0:12:57.700 --> 0:12:59.650
Dave
You had to work hard to get it and. 0:13:1.640 --> 0:13:2.350
Dave
Hello I don't. 0:13:4.730 --> 0:13:8.190
Dave
So I'm aware of not none of my friends or classmates really used it a lot. 0:13:8.920 --> 0:13:13.500
Dave
If anything was marijuana, I don't think anybody I knew used anything else. 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:15.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Here. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the next question is optional, but I'll ask it anyways. 0:13:18.900 --> 0:13:21.290
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You could choose to answer it or not. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:27.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So from the 1970s speak about tripping and taking psychedelics to reach a higher state of consciousness. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.140
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did students on campus use hallucinogens? 0:13:32.450 --> 0:13:32.700
Dave
Who? 0:13:32.900 --> 0:13:35.50
Dave
I you know, I don't, I don't think so. 0:13:35.60 --> 0:13:39.870
Dave
I think I may be naive here, but I I think you're at on campus. 0:13:40.270 --> 0:13:46.780
Dave
You have why should have a little bit more money to maybe other campuses, but I I I I don't think there was a really a focus on that. 0:13:46.790 --> 0:13:52.700
Dave
I think you kids are kids, obviously, but I don't think there was a lot of tripping went on. 0:13:52.710 --> 0:13:55.800
Dave
I mean, you had to still show up for class and not fail out and so on. 0:13:56.130 --> 0:13:56.540
Dave
So I don't. 0:13:58.890 --> 0:14:1.290
Dave
I don't think at at at Western. 0:14:1.300 --> 0:14:5.980
Dave
I don't think there's a big thing at all, and certainly nothing that I heard. 0:14:6.250 --> 0:14:10.40
Dave
I mean, I was always something, I guess, but it wasn't really common at all. 0:14:10.470 --> 0:14:13.940
Dave
And I again, they were harder to come by even than than marijuana. 0:14:13.980 --> 0:14:14.440
Dave
So. 0:14:14.650 --> 0:14:18.750
Dave
So I don't think it was a big thing for me on on Western's campus. 0:14:20.250 --> 0:14:20.960
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:14:21.30 --> 0:14:25.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll be moving on to next section, which is about the female experience. 0:14:26.730 --> 0:14:31.720
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So cultural historians have written a lot about what they call the 2nd wave feminism. 0:14:32.210 --> 0:14:38.730
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That as a part of the counterculture movement, women during the night in the early 1970s sought to break down gender barriers. 0:14:39.250 --> 0:14:45.160
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Does this argument resonate with your experience on the Universe University campus during the early 1970s? 0:14:47.0 --> 0:14:47.890
Dave
I would say so. 0:14:47.900 --> 0:14:49.940
Dave
I think it was it. 0:14:50.100 --> 0:14:56.480
Dave
Yeah, there was a lot of assuming we can do what we want to kind of thing, I mean. 0:14:58.610 --> 0:15:3.660
Dave
I I think that was the the the in the the heat of it back then. 0:15:3.670 --> 0:15:14.20
Dave
I mean, women were very conscious of doing what they wanted as they wanted, looking out for themselves, career, sex, as they wanted to, relationships as they wanted to. 0:15:14.30 --> 0:15:16.20
Dave
I think that was huge back then. 0:15:16.30 --> 0:15:20.90
Dave
I it wasn't something you to me. 0:15:20.100 --> 0:15:21.980
Dave
It wasn't a big thing, was kind of like, you know, OK. 0:15:22.20 --> 0:15:27.160
Dave
Ohh of course you know and I think a lot of it was that it wasn't like people were. 0:15:27.450 --> 0:15:30.960
Dave
I don't remember a protester or or things like that. 0:15:31.30 --> 0:15:36.890
Dave
On a cap, women on campus protesting stuff like that, which is kind of, we're just going to do like, let's get it done kind of thing. 0:15:36.990 --> 0:15:37.580
Dave
It wasn't. 0:15:37.890 --> 0:15:38.760
Dave
It wasn't really. 0:15:39.670 --> 0:15:40.410
Dave
There was a lot of. 0:15:41.150 --> 0:15:42.870
Dave
I'm sad. 0:15:43.450 --> 0:15:46.440
Dave
Social action about which is something like you kind of went. 0:15:46.450 --> 0:15:46.800
Dave
Yeah, OK. 0:15:46.810 --> 0:15:47.570
Dave
This makes sense. 0:15:47.580 --> 0:15:48.870
Dave
At least that's my perception of it. 0:15:49.900 --> 0:15:56.570
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so in your own words, what did feminism signify in Canada during the early 1970s? 0:15:59.30 --> 0:15:59.700
Dave
Jeez, I don't know. 0:16:5.820 --> 0:16:11.900
Dave
I I guess just equality like the do do. 0:16:11.910 --> 0:16:16.990
Dave
There's no particular roles that do what you want it to. 0:16:17.660 --> 0:16:20.110
Dave
I it wasn't to me. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:29.110
Dave
It wasn't about and activism or or protesting or whatever I think was just about, well, yeah, just do what? 0:16:29.290 --> 0:16:30.30
Dave
What's right? 0:16:30.40 --> 0:16:30.680
Dave
You know what I mean? 0:16:30.690 --> 0:16:31.780
Dave
I it wasn't. 0:16:31.850 --> 0:16:39.200
Dave
I don't think it was a something to galvanized people to to get together and protest or you know, whatever. 0:16:39.210 --> 0:16:40.150
Dave
I think it was just kinda. 0:16:40.460 --> 0:16:43.220
Dave
Yeah, that's just this is this is right, let's just move on. 0:16:45.260 --> 0:16:49.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So gender distinctions were more pronounced in the 1970s than today. 0:16:50.180 --> 0:16:56.820
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
How did being a woman result in different treatment and expectations in classroom or at social events compared to male students? 0:17:3.570 --> 0:17:4.60
Dave
Yeah, I know. 0:17:4.70 --> 0:17:7.430
Dave
We like, I think roles were still like. 0:17:11.100 --> 0:17:11.440
Dave
You're. 0:17:13.820 --> 0:17:14.220
Dave
Your. 0:17:15.740 --> 0:17:19.160
Dave
Dating and hanging out, it was like a A I don't think. 0:17:22.140 --> 0:17:23.500
Dave
I mean a role. 0:17:23.510 --> 0:17:27.590
Dave
I don't know if you had classmates who were male, female. 0:17:27.660 --> 0:17:28.490
Dave
Have you hung out? 0:17:28.980 --> 0:17:31.680
Dave
We'd, we'd laugh and joke and and study. 0:17:37.420 --> 0:17:38.190
Dave
OK, this thing. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:39.780
Dave
Sorry, my phones ringing here. 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:40.890
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
That's OK. 0:17:42.300 --> 0:17:42.660
Dave
I can't even. 0:17:46.930 --> 0:17:47.500
Dave
So I don't. 0:17:49.650 --> 0:17:50.970
Dave
Like I don't, it's just. 0:17:54.340 --> 0:17:55.150
Dave
There wasn't a blur. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.60
Dave
I I don't know like it was just you. 0:17:59.370 --> 0:18:0.830
Dave
Guys hang out with girls like. 0:18:0.840 --> 0:18:3.170
Dave
Yeah, because they were girls and and and vice versa. 0:18:3.180 --> 0:18:6.940
Dave
Like it wasn't a, it wasn't kind of a confusion or a wondering about that. 0:18:7.90 --> 0:18:9.390
Dave
It was just kind of, you know, does that make sense? 0:18:10.650 --> 0:18:11.980
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
I suppose, yeah. 0:18:12.390 --> 0:18:17.220
0:20:59.170 --> 0:21:6.450
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So in the 1970s, where their programs, departments or clubs where women were less present and accepted. 0:21:12.590 --> 0:21:12.800
Dave
I'm. 0:21:16.0 --> 0:21:18.70
Dave
I don't, I don't think so. 0:21:18.530 --> 0:21:20.0
Dave
I'm. I never. 0:21:20.90 --> 0:21:25.140
Dave
I didn't join many of those things, so I don't draw a lot of first time knowledge. 0:21:25.150 --> 0:21:25.980
Dave
I don't think there was any. 0:21:28.150 --> 0:21:33.940
Dave
I think, yeah, nothing that I can think are really any any discrimination that way. 0:21:33.950 --> 0:21:34.500
Dave
Any difference? 0:21:36.660 --> 0:21:36.850
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:21:37.890 --> 0:21:46.770
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
In the sense of departments, I suppose it's meaning like the Steins Department or alike engineering, where they less present in that. 0:21:45.750 --> 0:21:48.580
Dave
Ohh, OK Ohh OK, sorry I misunderstood. 0:21:48.590 --> 0:21:48.920
Dave
Yeah. 0:21:48.930 --> 0:21:54.810
Dave
Well, certainly engineering was, you know, was a guys hang out all the stuff they did. 0:21:54.820 --> 0:21:58.160
Dave
There were very few women in engineering. 0:21:58.390 --> 0:22:7.0
Dave
More in science, my that's we have a my class in in, umm physiotherapy. 0:22:7.200 --> 0:22:7.840
Dave
It was. 0:22:7.990 --> 0:22:11.720
Dave
It was thirty students and 25 are women, so that was. 0:22:11.770 --> 0:22:17.560
Dave
But I think that kind of reflected more sort of what society expected people to do. 0:22:17.620 --> 0:22:27.650
Dave
But the I think that was part of it, that women didn't gravitate into things like engineering and technology math, that sort of thing. Umm. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:27.910
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:22:29.590 --> 0:22:35.280
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we'll move on to next bit, which is about ideology and generational differences. 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:44.430
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So historians have written a lot about what they call the counterculture revolution, meaning that you're a generation rebelled against the values of your parents. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:52.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Generation to what extent did people in your social circle see themselves as needing to mobilize for a more just society and a better world? 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.660
Dave
I don't think there was a lot of. 0:23:1.160 --> 0:23:4.680
Dave
Yeah, sort of social action around that. 0:23:4.690 --> 0:23:9.780
Dave
I I think we, uh, something that you knew about, but it wasn't. 0:23:9.790 --> 0:23:10.570
Dave
There wasn't a whole lot of. 0:23:13.190 --> 0:23:16.350
Dave
Activity around that like I think we were aware of it, but there wasn't. 0:23:16.390 --> 0:23:20.0
Dave
It wasn't something that we it wasn't protests and and things like that. 0:23:20.10 --> 0:23:23.770
Dave
I mean, umm, universities are a different culture. 0:23:23.780 --> 0:23:30.330
Dave
It's kind of a little microcosm of the the world in there, but I don't think I recall anything along those lines. 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:39.660
Dave
Umm, any kind of counterculture kind of extra interest the. 0:23:42.290 --> 0:23:44.670
Dave
Maybe I I I just can't think of. 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:52.790
Dave
Like aside from from different faculties and so on, but I I don't think there's any kind of interest in that kind of stuff at all. 0:23:52.850 --> 0:23:53.710
Dave
Not that I'm aware of. 0:23:55.260 --> 0:24:3.350
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so to what extent did your generation believe that your parents notions about gender, family and dating were outdated? 0:24:9.160 --> 0:24:11.740
Dave
But to a fair degree, I guess I mean. 0:24:13.630 --> 0:24:19.40
Dave
Umm, gender wasn't a big thing back then, not like it is now. 0:24:19.230 --> 0:24:25.640
Dave
Dating, I think you know, my parents hope that you'd marry. 0:24:26.10 --> 0:24:30.160
Dave
So don't have kids and grandkids so quickly kind of thing. 0:24:30.170 --> 0:24:35.300
Dave
So and and you know you, you'd marry a nice girl or she'd marry a nice guy or whatever. 0:24:36.310 --> 0:24:45.160
Dave
I think by the 70s we were a little more laid back about who we picked as a partner, whatever for dating or for marriage or whatever. 0:24:45.170 --> 0:24:52.50
Dave
So yeah, I would say we were then pushing away from what my parents would expect. 0:24:53.580 --> 0:24:59.230
Dave
Back in my so my parents culture is very like they they it was, it was post war. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:4.910
Dave
So it was busy getting on with things and building a life and so on and all of other stuff. 0:25:4.920 --> 0:25:15.290
Dave
My, my, my parents didn't probably appreciate that as much the so why can't you just find a nice girl and settle down and kind of would be there philosophy, you know? 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:16.620
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yeah. 0:25:17.610 --> 0:25:26.610
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so looking back at the 1970s, what aspect of Canadian society did you see as most out of whack and in need of fixing? 0:25:29.980 --> 0:25:30.140
Dave
Yeah. 0:25:31.770 --> 0:25:32.440
Dave
See, I don't know. 0:25:32.460 --> 0:25:33.750
Dave
I really thought about it. Umm. 0:25:40.130 --> 0:25:42.150
Dave
I'm not really sure. 0:25:44.540 --> 0:25:49.870
Dave
I don't think Ohh most of the people I knew weren't really social activists. 0:25:50.780 --> 0:25:52.290
Dave
Umm, weren't. 0:25:54.430 --> 0:25:55.60
Dave
Concerned. 0:25:56.180 --> 0:25:57.460
Dave
No, that's not the right word. 0:25:57.540 --> 0:25:59.900
Dave
Word weren't active about it. Umm. 0:26:2.20 --> 0:26:2.530
Dave
I don't think we. 0:26:4.390 --> 0:26:7.810
Dave
Like you're you're sort of busy doing your own thing rather than worrying about. 0:26:9.490 --> 0:26:10.560
Dave
Social change. 0:26:10.570 --> 0:26:14.60
Dave
Social action, at least not that I'm aware of. 0:26:14.70 --> 0:26:14.570
Dave
I don't, I don't. 0:26:16.330 --> 0:26:20.130
Dave
In kind of a university environment, that wasn't anything that I particularly saw. 0:26:22.90 --> 0:26:28.380
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what were the principle forms of injustice in Canadian society during the 1970s? 0:26:30.550 --> 0:26:30.980
Dave
Don't go away. 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:35.130
Dave
That I'm having trouble remembering. 0:26:38.110 --> 0:26:40.630
Dave
Well, we weren't aware of it, but certainly indigenous. 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.880
Dave
Stuff was we I don't think we were aware of it as much back then as we are now. 0:26:48.40 --> 0:26:56.400
Dave
Umm, some level of of gender women weren't didn't have access to as many things, but we weren't. 0:26:57.310 --> 0:26:59.200
Dave
That wasn't a hot social issue. 0:27:0.380 --> 0:27:1.30
Dave
Umm. 0:27:5.990 --> 0:27:11.460
Dave
And I I can't think of like it wasn't something that I I think I was particularly aware of. 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:19.770
Dave
You know you're busy doing other things, but not really aware of the the wider social issues kind of thing. 0:27:21.740 --> 0:27:22.390
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:27.710
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Did you feel that the political system was democratic, fair and responsive to citizens needs? 0:27:31.20 --> 0:27:39.900
Dave
I I would say mostly I mean, so I don't think people thought the system was perfect, but I don't think there was much. 0:27:42.450 --> 0:27:43.570
Dave
Unrestored or. 0:27:45.90 --> 0:27:46.350
Dave
Activism around that. 0:27:48.580 --> 0:27:51.240
Dave
I think there was, I think. 0:27:53.900 --> 0:27:54.40
Dave
Yeah. 0:27:54.40 --> 0:27:58.810
Dave
It's just they're the political system has always been a bit corrupt, I suppose. 0:27:58.820 --> 0:28:8.160
Dave
Or open to all kinds of things, but not not as much and not as umm known as as it is today. Umm. 0:28:9.920 --> 0:28:12.300
Dave
So umm, I would say. 0:28:14.450 --> 0:28:17.280
Dave
To some degree, but not we were. 0:28:17.290 --> 0:28:20.510
Dave
We were busy doing other things, I think rather than focused on that stuff. 0:28:22.510 --> 0:28:37.580
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so cultural historians have argued that the introduction of the birth control pill, legalization of abortion, and it's this, the dissemination of the free love ideology, change, gender relations and the dating practices in the early 1970s. 0:28:37.890 --> 0:28:39.180
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Do you agree with that statement? 0:28:40.180 --> 0:28:41.80
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:42.820
Dave
Yes, very much so. 0:28:43.40 --> 0:28:43.670
Dave
Yeah. 0:28:44.450 --> 0:28:44.650
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:28:44.100 --> 0:28:47.100
Dave
Yeah, we did change dating hugely. 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:53.80
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, So what did dating look like on campus during the 1970s? 0:28:54.830 --> 0:28:56.210
Dave
Alright, there was. 0:28:56.220 --> 0:28:57.630
Dave
There was a lot of party, yeah. 0:29:0.220 --> 0:29:3.400
Dave
I I think it was much more. 0:29:7.740 --> 0:29:14.650
Dave
Kids were looking to *** **** more and and did *** **** more than you know a decade before. 0:29:14.820 --> 0:29:20.940
Dave
Certainly my parents generation the the uh birth control, it changed a lot. 0:29:20.950 --> 0:29:22.940
Dave
The contraception changed all that. 0:29:23.850 --> 0:29:29.430
Dave
Which meant you could be more sexual activity that with, you know, worrying about and. 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:33.90
Dave
And it was kind of like, well, this is where it should be kind of thing. 0:29:33.100 --> 0:29:33.820
Dave
You know, it wasn't. 0:29:34.130 --> 0:29:40.210
Dave
You went around celebrate, but it was just kind of, but it made things a lot easier. 0:29:40.220 --> 0:29:42.230
Dave
I think people had a lot more fun. 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.870
Dave
I think a lot more hooking up the one on umm, uh. 0:29:46.730 --> 0:29:47.540
Dave
Personally, not me. 0:29:47.550 --> 0:29:51.620
Dave
I had a girlfriend back in Toronto at the time and my secondary. 0:29:51.630 --> 0:29:56.420
Dave
I was married with a host at a mortgage and A and a two week old baby. 0:29:56.430 --> 0:29:59.940
Dave
So it was a lot of partying there for me, but I think it was. 0:30:0.570 --> 0:30:6.470
Dave
I think it definitely had an impact and made, uh, minute kids. 0:30:6.620 --> 0:30:11.790
Dave
So want to enable to some do more. 0:30:13.620 --> 0:30:17.170
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so how did your generation look at family and marriage? 0:30:19.950 --> 0:30:24.400
Dave
I think it was just assumed that you'd eventually get married and have a family. 0:30:24.410 --> 0:30:30.50
Dave
I think that was many of the people I knew that wasn't an overt thing. 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:32.940
Dave
The joke in the 70s was that. 0:30:35.710 --> 0:30:38.860
Dave
At Western lot of women came to get their Mrs degree. 0:30:39.890 --> 0:30:41.280
Dave
They did to find a husband. 0:30:41.610 --> 0:30:44.440
Dave
That was the Western something that way. 0:30:44.450 --> 0:30:46.580
Dave
But I think it was kind of. 0:30:46.790 --> 0:30:51.390
Dave
It was assumed that you'd at some point get married and have a family. 0:30:53.460 --> 0:30:58.460
Dave
That was the only sort of social structure we you you grew up with kind of thing. 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:0.760
Dave
And again at the time. 0:31:2.830 --> 0:31:3.630
Dave
Toronto is fairly. 0:31:4.540 --> 0:31:7.830
Dave
Of pretty, pretty straightforward. 0:31:7.840 --> 0:31:18.990
Dave
We were conservative, I think very conservative in our behavior and there wasn't a lot of I'm non non traditional families and stuff like that. 0:31:19.0 --> 0:31:26.810
Dave
So you came from a background where where you know the mom and dad and you had kids, you know, you had siblings and so on. 0:31:26.820 --> 0:31:33.190
Dave
And that's kind of what you grew up expecting, I think in the 70s, people were looking perhaps to change that later. 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:38.440
Dave
But I think the expectations were, you know, a family house in the suburbs and and whatnot. 0:31:41.40 --> 0:31:41.500
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK. 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:51.470
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So we've reached the final portion of the interview, but this portion is completely optional and it does come with the disclaimer. 0:31:52.100 --> 0:31:56.810
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So the following section is optional and it concerns sexuality and harassment. 0:31:57.300 --> 0:32:4.590
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
We appreciate that not everyone will feel comfortable with these questions and we want to reiterate that your participation is entirely voluntary. 0:32:5.240 --> 0:32:10.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
You may choose to answer questions that make you feel uncomfortable or skip this section entirely. 0:32:13.170 --> 0:32:13.390
Dave
Yep. 0:32:14.550 --> 0:32:20.300
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so many universities today have been forced to police sexual harassment. 0:32:20.410 --> 0:32:25.660
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
To what extent did university authorities monitor mixers and social events to keep women safe? 0:32:28.420 --> 0:32:33.100
Dave
I'm not not much if I don't think. 0:32:33.950 --> 0:32:38.220
Dave
I don't know that parties were that wild back then. 0:32:40.260 --> 0:32:43.220
Dave
I don't think the universities police that much at all. 0:32:43.230 --> 0:32:46.570
Dave
I mean, if something happened on campus, the police would show up, but it wasn't. 0:32:46.900 --> 0:32:47.450
Dave
Well, I don't know. 0:32:47.460 --> 0:32:49.130
Dave
It was a big thing policing. 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:56.200
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so our generation is interested in a free love movement. 0:32:56.640 --> 0:33:1.490
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
What was the perception of premarital sex on the university campus in the 1970s? 0:33:1.670 --> 0:33:4.310
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Was it viewed negatively accepted or even encouraged? 0:33:5.180 --> 0:33:6.620
Dave
Yeah, I would definitely encourage them. 0:33:8.60 --> 0:33:8.640
Dave
It was a. 0:33:13.330 --> 0:33:17.510
Dave
Like the world had opened, the doors are opened and you could do what you wanted to do. 0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:21.70
Dave
And yeah, so it was a very much a, I mean it wasn't. 0:33:23.550 --> 0:33:25.640
Dave
Radical hippies running around the university campus. 0:33:25.650 --> 0:33:28.850
Dave
But I I think that very much umm was. 0:33:31.290 --> 0:33:34.540
Dave
A birth control and and said open sexuality and so on. 0:33:34.550 --> 0:33:38.410
Dave
And and being able to do what you wanted was very much a thing then. 0:33:40.740 --> 0:33:44.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
So did members of your parents generation worry about premarital sex? 0:33:45.980 --> 0:33:48.370
Dave
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:50.820
Dave
But only because you didn't. 0:33:50.860 --> 0:33:52.520
Dave
You didn't want to get the. 0:33:53.550 --> 0:34:0.290
Dave
You didn't want your daughter to get pregnant or your son to get her pregnant, so that was, I think, the premarital sex and and. 0:34:0.960 --> 0:34:7.160
Dave
And having a having a child having a pregnancy were were the big thing that. 0:34:7.170 --> 0:34:13.360
Dave
Not sure they were so worried about having sex was the consequences of that if if you happen to get her pregnant kind of thing. 0:34:13.370 --> 0:34:15.100
Dave
So I was very much concerned of theirs. 0:34:16.740 --> 0:34:24.340
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
OK, so that was the last question of the interview and I would love like to thank you so much for your time. Yes. 0:34:24.290 --> 0:34:24.720
Dave
OK. 0:34:24.730 --> 0:34:25.440
Dave
You're welcome. 0:34:25.450 --> 0:34:25.970
Dave
I hope it's helpful. 0:34:27.60 --> 0:34:27.530
Tara Mokhtare Zadeh
Yes. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilkinson, Dave (Interview) Subject The topic of the resource Testimonial about Western University in London, Ontario during the 1970s, discussing popular culture, the female experience, ideology and generational differences, and sexuality and harassment. Description An account of the resource 2023-11-1 Relation A related resource <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nu7WhJHAE74?si=ey8dEPYmq50jRiFu" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><br />"Interview with Dave Wikkinson." Life on Campus, November 2, 2023. Video,&nbsp;<br />https://youtu.be/nu7WhJHAE74?si=J1EN0amFbW76fFx7 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, 28 minutes, 18 seconds Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history 1970s Activism Dating Drugs Free Love Gender Popular Music Protest Sexuality Vietnam Western University