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                <text>According to her "About" page on her website, "Jessica Love is the author and illustrator of &lt;em&gt;Julián is a Mermaid&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;Julián at the Wedding&lt;/em&gt;, published by Candlewick Press, and the illustrator of "I Love You Because I Love You" by Mượn Thị Văn, published by HarperCollins. Jessica grew up in Southern California, raised by a pair of artist parents. She studied printmaking and illustration at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and then went on to study Drama at Juilliard. After working as an actor in New York for ten years, she made a pivot and created Julián is a Mermaid, her first book. Jessica lives in the Hudson Valley with her sweetheart and their son."</text>
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                <text>"About."&amp;nbsp;&lt;a href="https://jesslove.format.com/about"&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jesslove.format.com&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. Accessed 12 August 2024.</text>
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      <description>Books for Young Readers analyzed in this project.</description>
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                <text>Julián is a Mermaid</text>
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                <text>Author/Illustrator Jessica Love describes her Stonewall Book Award-winning &lt;em&gt;Julián is a Mermaid&lt;/em&gt; as "a story about a boy and his Abuela. It is a story about  being seen for who we are by someone who loves us" (https://jesslove.format.com/julian-is-a-mermaid). On an outing with his abuela, Julián encounters three women who are in his eyes so beautifully dressed up that he thinks of them as mermaids and decides he wants to be a mermaid, too. The book is about unconditional love and acceptance.</text>
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                <text>Candlewick Press (publisher)</text>
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                <text>Penguin Random House Canada (distributor)</text>
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada</text>
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                <text>Cover image: "Julián is a Mermaid (Jessica Love book) cover." Candlewick Press, &lt;a href="https://www.candlewick.com/bookxtras.asp?isbn=0763690457&amp;amp;id=&amp;amp;browse=title&amp;amp;view=jacket&amp;amp;jacket=./images/cwp_bookjackets/648/0763690457.jpg&amp;amp;bktitle=Juli%E1n+Is+a+Mermaid"&gt;https://www.candlewick.com/bookxtras.asp?isbn=0763690457&amp;amp;id=&amp;amp;browse=title&amp;amp;view=jacket&amp;amp;jacket=./images/cwp_bookjackets/648/0763690457.jpg&amp;amp;bktitle=Juli%E1n+Is+a+Mermaid&lt;/a&gt;. Accessed 12 August 2024.</text>
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                <text>Kelly St-Jacques (cataloguer, 2024)</text>
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            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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                <text>Pages 20-21 of This Day in June</text>
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            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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                <text>This Day In June Book Burning </text>
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            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                <text>Robert Durr (creator)</text>
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                <text>A screenshot from the Facebook live stream of Robert Durr burning &lt;em&gt;This Day In June&lt;/em&gt;</text>
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      <description>Use for interviews conducted for this project.</description>
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          <description>The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data</description>
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              <text>Zoom call</text>
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              <text>&lt;strong&gt;Edited transcript.&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; Can you tell us a little about IBBY? What initiatives are you working on? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; IBBY is a nonprofit organization that represents a network of organizations across the world who are committed to bringing books and children together. The intent is to make sure that high quality books, books that are produced by professional writers and illustrators, are accessible to children. We do several things at IBBY Canada to promote that, like the Cleaver Award, an annual award that showcases an illustrator. It’s a way to promote books that have been deemed excellent, so school teachers or librarians have a selection to choose from. Right now, the main initiative that we are working on is hosting the International Congress in Ottawa in 2026. Canada will host about 250 experts [in the field of children’s literature] from around the world. The theme of the Congress is “Listening to Each Other’s Voices,” so it’s really an open theme to explore diversity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; How do children’s picturebooks foster the power of listening to each other? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; Picturebooks can be a reflection of children’s own lives, or the lives of others. When a story is told about people from a certain culture, it’s very different from when they tell the story themselves. They don’t represent themselves as a stereotype — they represent themselves in their daily lives. It’s very important to see that. Hopefully, everyone will be able to tell their own story more and more. IBBY Canada has a very interesting project; it’s called “From Sea to Sea to Sea,” and it’s a catalog of Indigenous children’s books. It’s very important that that collection was prepared by IBBY Canada because we distribute it in an online catalog, so it’s free to access. We’re also raising funds to have several collections of books donated to reserve schools and libraries, in locations where they are really needed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; What considerations have to be made when curating a collection of children’s literature? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; It’s very important to have a framework and to know where you’re coming from. Why are you doing it? And for whom? Is the collection for access for researchers or the public? You have to know your audience. Once you have a mandate and know exactly what you are going to do, what is also important is having the means. So having a budget, and if the budget is not sufficient, being able to seek out other resources and fundraising opportunities. What is also important is showcasing your collection through institute events, readings, and lectures, as well as your online presence. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; IBBY’s mission is to support the right of every child to become a reader through access to high-quality books. Why does this right matter so much? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; In the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 29 talks about education and access to information. IBBY’s mission matters because it’s really an appeal to promote and distribute children’s books, which gives more information to children. It helps them develop their skills and knowledge, and it helps them to live in the world we all live in by giving them exposure to new ideas. Picturebooks promote an open mind and give children the tools and skills to live a full life. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; What do you think poses the biggest threat to a child’s right to read in Canada today? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; In Canada, we’re a developed country, but we still have issues of access. One aspect is the socioeconomic factor. In major cities, libraries are fine, but in smaller places they are run by volunteers. Sometimes they’re open only a few hours per day or twice a week. There’s also the issue of uneven online access, depending on the location. Another barrier is the depletion of the school library budget. In some areas, the school library is the only library available. If school libraries don’t have the budget to purchase books, or if the teacher has to buy their own books to share with the class, that’s very difficult. The other aspect is the cultural factor, including language barriers for newcomers to the country. Another IBBY project is Reading with Newcomer Children. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;INTERVIEWER:&lt;/strong&gt; How would you describe the power of picturebooks? What makes this medium so special? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;JOSIANE:&lt;/strong&gt; A picturebook is like a little world. There’s a world you can see and read, but there’s also a world you can share. With younger children, you need at least two reading it — the child and the adult reader, or the older brother or sister — so there’s really a connection between people with picturebooks. You can show the child what is going on in the book and ask questions, so there’s an interaction that’s going on. With a novel, it’s different because it’s just you and the text. It’s more personal. With a picturebook, it can be shared. I find that really powerful. Picturebooks also have a dual aspect. They have the visual language aspect and the textual aspect. It’s the complementarity or sometimes the tension between the two that is so striking. There’s a lot to decipher visually; the child or the reader have to notice things. The image is being read and the text is being read, and it’s the combination of both that is really fascinating.</text>
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              <text>&lt;strong&gt;Interview with Uma Krishnaswami- Audio Transcript [Note: this transcription has been edited]&lt;/strong&gt; &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
For this interview I spoke with Uma Krishnaswami. Uma is a writer of children’s literature and has played an important role in bringing multicultural narratives into the mainstream. Having been raised in India, Uma noticed the lack of South Asian representation in books and set out to fix this. In this interview we discussed the process of writing a children’s story and special considerations when it comes to writing picturebooks. We then moved on to discuss activism in children’s books, as well as the current political climate of censorship and how picturebooks might respond to that. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; So, you've been writing for 30 years now, right?&lt;strong&gt; &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think it's more like 35, I'd say. I started writing when my son was little and he is now married, he has children of his own, so, at least I'd say 35 to 37 years something like that. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; It occurred to me, while exploring some of your picture books, that many of the stories, feature, human characters, but often the main actor in the story is the environment or the setting itself. So I'm wondering how important are settings and the environment or the space that you occupy in both inspiring and informing the stories you write. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think it’s very important. To me, setting is so much more than just backdrop and context. I think it’s part of the story, and certainly it’s part of everything I write. A lot of times, books like a book like &lt;em&gt;Monsoon&lt;/em&gt; really came out of the setting. I was on a plane, and we were landing in Delhi, and there was a thunderstorm breaking out, or you know, it was just, the rain was beginning, and I was starting to feel kind of uncomfortable. And so, I just pulled out my notebook, and I jotted down a few lines about putting the rain into context the way I remembered it as a child, and I came up with 12 lines and I didn’t really do anything very much with it for months. And then afterwards, when I went back and I showed it to my writing group, they said, &lt;em&gt;It’s lovely, but you’re going to have to do a lot of expanding.&lt;/em&gt; So, I expanded it, and I made it longer, and I made it fit the picturebook pages. And then they said, &lt;em&gt;But wait! Where are the people?&lt;/em&gt; And so then, of course, I had to back way and think about a character, a child character, to inhabit that that space because it wasn't gonna be a book without it. And so for me, a lot of times, not always. But a lot of times setting comes, does come first. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; You had your first work published when you were only 13. And yet, as you say, on your website, you were writing for many years before you actually saw yourself as a writer. And, you've said that as a child the majority of the books you read were either British or American, and you never really saw yourself represented in those books which led you to believe that only British and American people could be writers. And I believe you also said that a lot of writers that you read were dead by the time you read them. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; This is true. Yeah, children have odd logic to things. But the first thing that was published wasn't a book. It was a poem, and it was published in a magazine that a philanthropist and cartoonist actually in India had started called &lt;em&gt;Children's World&lt;/em&gt;, and he really believed in the voices of children, and I think that's where I get my sense of the importance of children's voices because of the way that my voice was lifted and elevated by giving it space in that little magazine. I'm very grateful for that, and so I think I pay a lot of attention to the aspect of empowering children in my books. But yeah. It's been a strange journey. It really took the birth of my son, and looking for children's books with – I lived in the U.S. at the time – looking for children's books with a with an Indian subcontinental context. I just didn't find them. And so, I didn’t know any better. I had no idea how difficult a process this would turn out to be, and how complicated it is, and how many forces go into play in creating a book. And I thought, Oh, I could do this! And so, I started writing, and then once I started writing, I realized that it was the writing that was really engaging me and intriguing me, and that somehow, at some level as I had as a child, I needed to express myself. And so that’s really where that realization came to me. But no, I did not feel represented as a child. I don’t know what that even felt like, as a child to be represented in a book, because I never had that experience. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; You mentioned that you were 14 when you first saw an Indian person represented in a book that was represented in a positive way, that wasn't denigrating. How did that affect your sense of self, growing up reading books where Indian characters were maybe secondary? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think there was a general, you know, in many ways, India at that time, in the year I was born, India had been independent for what? Nine years? It’s a very new country. And so all through my childhood, history was still being refashioned and thought about, and I suppose in some ways that continues to this day. But, I think there was this sense in my childhood of, somehow we were all a little bit, felt that we weren't quite there yet. We looked to the West for things that were, you know, stylish or important, or ideas that that one should pay attention to, and that's it's just not a good place to be. And then, coming to the United States and finding that children like I had been, and children, certainly children like my son – they weren't there in books either, at the time. And so that's when I think it really, it made me feel as if I had to do something about it. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; What were some of the challenges you faced when you first started writing multicultural children's stories? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Oh, well, I have to tell you, I think I think it was too easy in the beginning. My very first book got accepted pretty quickly, and I thought, Oh, it's going to be like this. This is great. It's going to be like this from here on. And of course it wasn't, but I had very – I had a wonderful mentor and an editor who took on my second book, which was a collection of stories from the Hindu tradition. It was called &lt;em&gt;The Broken Tusk&lt;/em&gt;, and miraculously it still remains in print. After all these years later, it was published in 1996, and she was the one who told me, who really looked at my writing on the page and gave me lots of ways to think about it. I remember writing a scene, it was a battle scene with demons and demons and gods, and you know, it was from Hindu mythology. And she said, &lt;em&gt;Why are you rushing through this conflict?&lt;/em&gt; She said, &lt;em&gt;You've got demons. You've got gods! You've got you've got people in the middle. Make the most of this, she said, wallow in demons,&lt;/em&gt; and I thought to myself, that's really good advice. And I've always reminded myself when I tend to skip over conflict. I tend to do that in my life, and I tend to do that in my writing and drafts, and I always have to remind myself, stop and wallow in demons. Face them for a minute. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; So, how were your books received by publishers and booksellers? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; In general, over the years, the reviews have been positive. I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t pay a lot of attention to that. I try not to. Sometimes one will come across and hit you over the head. I do remember an early negative review that started, “Newcomer, Krishnaswami,” and it kind of went downhill from there. And I was so crushed. But what I have learned over the years is that I can't afford to spend my energy worrying about how people are going to receive what I write. I just have to write the best book that I can. And I must say that rewards come in unexpected ways. A novel I wrote 20 years ago &lt;em&gt;Naming Maya&lt;/em&gt;, was just given the Phoenix award by the Children's Literature Association. So, you know, 20-year-old book. Whoever expected that anyone would pay attention to it anymore. And yet here we are. So, I tell myself that I’m writing for the long haul. I really don’t care what the reviewers say now, or what anybody says now. I care about what children reading the book think, and I care about getting the best story I can on the page. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, I think the mark of a classic is that it lasts. It may not be successful right away, or as successful as you'd like it to be, but down the road people realize the value of it. How do you start writing a story? Do you have a specific goal in mind? What does that look like? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; It depends. Sometimes an idea will just kind of land, and I'm always very suspicious about new ideas. I think I think if you put ten people in a room, you can come up with 50 good ideas. They won't all go anywhere. Sometimes the test of a story is not how dazzled you are by the idea of it, but by how much you can bear to live with that idea of over an extended period of time. You know. And does it drive you enough, or does it have enough substance? I mean, with picturebook ideas, something might seem really interesting or engaging, but then, when you start to work it out through the page, it kind of falls apart. So, it really, it really varies a lot. Sometimes it'll be a character that will show up, and I'll you know, &lt;em&gt;Book Uncle and Me&lt;/em&gt; started with a character. I was actually in India visiting my parents, who lived in a city very much like the one in the book, and I was walking down the road. I had gone to a shop or something, and there was this kid on the sidewalk. She was sitting on this broken-down sidewalk, the bricks were all popping up, and she was sitting in the middle with a book on her lap and reading. Just completely oblivious to the people walking by her: the people in the street, the buses going by, I mean, she was just engrossed in her book, and I thought, &lt;em&gt;Oh, there’s a story there. I wonder what it is?&lt;/em&gt; And there was an election going on at the time. There were all these pendants hanging across the street, with the signs, symbols for all the political parties and people driving by and in vans, with loudspeakers blaring out agendas and the names of the candidates and whatnot. And I thought, &lt;em&gt;Whoa! How can I put those two things together? Is that possible?&lt;/em&gt; So, it started out as a lark, just trying to see, you know, can I do this? Can I take this idea and put it with that idea and make something happen. And then this character arrived, and she was amazing. She just kind of took over the book. Then her friends came in. And now we have three books with one from each of the points of view of the of each of the friends. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Oh, I love that. What kinds of stories are best told through picturebooks, as opposed to chapter books? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think it has to be a story that doesn't raise more questions than it can answer in the small container of 32 pages, maybe maximum 40 pages. So, you've got a very small container to work with. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a simple story. Picturebooks can have incredibly complicated layers, but it does have to be a story that can be told in relatively few words, a story that leaves room for art, that has, and we talked about setting, a story where the setting of each spread needs to vary sufficiently to provide some visual interest. Right? So if everything happens in a single room, you, there has to be a way to visually vary the pace, so the illustrator isn't constantly having to deal with the same set of images, because that's really not possible. That's not going to create a story that moves. So, I think there's a lot there. With a picturebook you are really almost writing half a book. You need to leave room for images. So, if I over-describe, or if I'm too conscious of what something should look like, then that's not going to give an artist enough room to work their magic. So, I think those are the kinds of things that I think about, when I'm when I'm thinking about whether something is a picture book or not. Now. I will tell you that I'm a terrible judge of this, and there are many, many times when I have thought something is a picture book and it hasn't. It's turned out not to be so. At one point I was thinking of &lt;em&gt;Book Uncle&lt;/em&gt; as a picturebook, but it was too complicated, and there were too many characters and too much happened. I had thought about a book that I wrote that was set in California, &lt;em&gt;Step up to the Plate, Maria Singh&lt;/em&gt;, the girl who wants to be on a softball team, and that was also it was not a picturebook. I mean. It started out as one little scene within that family, and it felt kind of not – it felt like it was bursting out of the out of its boundaries. It couldn't stay in that one scene it had to be, it had to be longer and bigger, more context. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't really thought about the pictures need space to move. So, you need to provide that opportunity with the text. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Most of your picture books are illustrated by different artists. How do you discover and collaborate with the illustrators? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; No, you don't. For the most part what happens is, you submit the manuscript to a publisher, and now I have an agent who does my submissions, and then, if it's accepted, then the publisher will contract separately with an illustrator. So, the processes are really completely separate. I get to see roughs most often of the artwork in progress, and I can give feedback on that, but I can't really dictate how it should look. I'm not an art critic or a good enough judge of that to, but what I can do is point out where there are discrepancies where, if the artist is showing something that my text explicitly doesn't mean to show. Then I can point that out, or if there are cultural inconsistencies, then I can point that out. I can offer resources to an artist to say, &lt;em&gt;Look, here's the image in a place like that place. Here’s some photographs. Maybe this will help.&lt;/em&gt; But I don’t ever talk directly to the illustrator. That always goes through the editor and art director, and people like that. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Interesting. You do have one illustrator who shares your name. Did you reach out to her? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yes, I talked to her. But here, so, I didn't even know this was a possibility, right? What are the odds? But I got an email from somebody in France who said he liked my work, and this is always lovely to hear, but then he listed some books that he'd read, and I hadn't written all of them. This was back in, way back in, I want to say early, 2000s, maybe, and it was, it was quite a surprise. But the Internet had arrived by then, so I was able to look her up and look up the books and I found her publisher was in India. And so next time I went there, I went and visited with the publisher, and then I actually met Uma. So, that was before they picked her to do the illustration for my &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way! Out of the Way!&lt;/em&gt; But we had a funny moment, because I think it was &lt;em&gt;Cricket Magazine&lt;/em&gt; that published, maybe? Yeah. One of the &lt;em&gt;Cricket Magazine&lt;/em&gt; group publications picked up a poem I'd written, and they asked her to do the illustration, but they didn't tell me she was going to do it. So that was a really nice surprise. That, I think, was the first thing we did together before the book. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; That's fun! Wow! &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I know, isn’t it? She spells it differently, like one letter, her last name end with a -y and mine with an -i. A lot of times people will ask me about illustration. I'm like, &lt;em&gt;no, no, no! I don't do artwork. You don't want me to do artwork. I can't draw&lt;/em&gt;. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Aw, that’s so fun! Are picture books only for children?&#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt; Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that picture books are works of art. They are so much more than just the text that I dream up. They're about the artwork. They're about design. They're about how the whole thing fits together, and the story itself sometimes will come together in some other space like between the images and the words. The story really happens when there's an adult reading a picturebook to a child. So, I think very much picturebooks are also for grownups. For people of all ages. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; How important is activism in children's literature? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think children’s literature is fearless in very many ways. I think, that there has always been a strain of activism in children’s books. They very often push the boundaries. This has been true for years and years, whether they push literary boundaries or boundaries of what is acceptable within the norms of a children’s book, or they’re more explicitly dealing with issues in the world. They are empowering the child character. And this is certainly, I don’t think this was always true in children’s literature, but it has certainly been true for many decades now, that you put the child, that we put the child at the center of a story. And so then, by definition, we're giving the child agency and then, of course, when children encounter injustice or something goes wrong, then the child is taking action. So that in itself is telling children, there are things you can do in the world. Whatever your reasons for wanting to do them. So, I think there's that. But you know, that said, I'm under no illusions that childen’s books can't be used for other purposes as well, and certainly a book is a book, and the writer brings their life and experience and thinking to it. But in general, children's books are a space where children can feel empowered and thereby empowered to take action. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; How does one use activism in a children's book while still respecting a child's ability to think through issues on their own? So, instead of pushing them to act a certain way. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think that goes to, just not being didactic. I think there's a sense, I mean, children's books have a have a long didactic history, right? I mean, in fact, they started with incredible didacticism, and this notion of shaping the child into a moral character. We have in in our time, thankfully, gotten away from that. But I think that the stories that last are the stories that don't beat readers over the head with their message. And so, by definition, then they are stories that perhaps didn't start with that message. I know for myself that if I start thinking, well, I'm gonna sit down and write a book about, you know, water or water scarcity, say, or any – pick a social issue that that I feel strongly about. I'm gonna write a book about that. Then, my feelings about that are going to get in the way of developing a character, letting that character grow. Stepping back a little bit because a book is not an item of propaganda, and it shouldn't come across like that. You know. I think my picture book &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way! Out of the Way!&lt;/em&gt; was an example of where I actually tried to. I submitted it to a number of publishers, and they rejected it in early stages, and a lot of what they were saying at the time was, &lt;em&gt;There isn't enough happening there, and the child is sort of on the fringes of the story. He's just a witness, he should take action,&lt;/em&gt; and so I tried to make him take action. I put him at the center of the scene. I gave the kid a name. Pretty soon people turned up to cut down the tree, and then I was stuck. I'd written myself into a corner, and it was starting to read like a leaflet or a manifesto. And that's not what I was after. So then I sent it to a publisher in India who said to me, &lt;em&gt;You’ve got a tree. You've got a road. Why does it have to be either or? Why can't it be both?&lt;/em&gt; And that's when it occurred to me, &lt;em&gt;Okay, wait a minute. You know that boy who stood on the fringes. He needs to stand on the fringes. But what if he took just one action, and then that then led to this cascading series of events, and that changed not only him, but the entire community and the road and the tree, and everybody changed, and they could all manage somehow&lt;/em&gt;. So, I think it worked for me to step back from, &lt;em&gt;Well, I have to do this, I have to manipulate this character in this way,&lt;/em&gt; and instead, just let the story unfold. I had to take my finger off that and really visualize it differently. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Was that hard to do? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; It was. It was a learning experience for me. I mean, it really taught me a lot about how not to force a plot, and to just let it let it unfold. Let it, let me think, you know, what feeling do I need to give to a story, and follow that rather than follow a sort of a more cerebral logical way of thinking, because the story has to build its own logic, and that doesn't always happen when you're forcing it. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah. And I mean, I think that book is so powerful because it shows this one action that the boy takes and like you said, it shows the cascading effect of that on future generations, much more than if it was this intense climax. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, very dramatic, and I mean it was all, I was listening to the feedback, but I wasn't really understanding the feedback, I think what they were saying was, not you have to do this. But what they were asking was, &lt;em&gt;What is the story really about? Like, what's the big thing at its heart?&lt;/em&gt; &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Right. Have you ever made changes to the content in your book to be more appropriate for your readers? Have you ever felt the need to do that?&#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
 &lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Occasionally. I've mostly done that myself where something has, and mostly I've done it in the context of, how critical to the story is it, that I say this? If I pull back a little bit, is it really going to change anything else? And if it isn't, then it's gratuitous. It felt maybe important to me. There was, I think, &lt;em&gt;Naming Maya&lt;/em&gt; had somebody swearing in one scene, and then, when I read it later, it felt as if that wasn't really necessary, and it might trip up a reader when perhaps that was not important to the story. But if it had been important, and I had felt committed to keeping it, I would have absolutely fought for it. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; In the US in the last two years, book banning has doubled. Since 2020, political groups have organized to systematically ban certain children's books in the United States, and statistics show that that's happening in Canada as well. In light of rising censorship and systematic attempts to challenge and ban diverse books, how does this growing hostility affect you as a writer? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; It's just tragic. It's tragic because it's part of a bigger picture of wanting to take control over what people think. And I think that they’re wanting to rewrite history, I think in some ways, wanting to kind of go back to an era where things were seen, perhaps by some people, as having been simpler and better, and that was not necessarily true. Of resistance against stories coming into the light in recent times. I think it’s very dangerous. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Could you explain what you mean by “rewrite history”? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, I mean, I think part of what's been so amazing over the last, I would say maybe a decade or two in publishing, definitely a decade, is the emergence of histories that really never saw the light of day before. Right? I mean my novel about Mexican Punjabi Community in Central California in the 1940s, that is not a story that very many people knew at all and that it was published and published as a children's book, I think, was remarkable in 2017. But I also think about the many, many layers of black history emerging into the light of day, stories that had to do with, you know, just everything, from reconstruction to emancipation, to reconstruction to the Civil Rights era, many views of the Civil Rights movement, many takes on the layers of meaning in all the events of that time, and I think there's now sadly a pushback to the notion that anything bad at all happened in American history, or that a nation really ought to come to terms with its past, and that it's not a zero-sum game. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah. Have you personally, have you felt any of your books being challenged, or have you felt the need to censor yourself at all in your writing? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I don’t feel the need to censor myself at all, and I certainly will not. Years and years ago, this was before book banning became the hot topic that it is these days, there was a challenge to one of my books. It was &lt;em&gt;The Broken Tusk&lt;/em&gt; and it was in, I forget even the state where it was. It might have been New Hampshire, or it was one of those states up out east and it was a school system wanting to take it off their shelves because they felt as if it was elevating a non-Christian faith. Yeah, so that was that was alarming. It was alarming back in the late nineties, and it remains alarming today. But there wasn't at that time, you know, my publisher sent me a note, and she said &lt;em&gt;you might be interested to see what's happened. There's been a challenge. I don't know what's going to happen&lt;/em&gt;. And then that's it. So, it sort of got lost. We never followed up on it, so I never knew what happened with the book, whether it was taken off. There just there wasn't the movement then, there wasn't no social media, there was no way to connect to people my publisher was concerned, and so was I don't know what happened. I assumed in the end that they must not have removed the book, because I would think I would have found out, had that happened. But it was interesting. That's the only one of my books that has ever been openly noted in any such interaction. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; So, you’ve talked about how multicultural children’s books are becoming more mainstream. There's a lot more of them now than there was when you started writing. What do you think the future looks like at this point, now that they're facing this growing hostility towards diverse literature? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, it's very alarming. For some time I thought, &lt;em&gt;Okay, you know what we've had this fight. Why do we have to keep having this conversation over and over again?&lt;/em&gt; Like, why are we back in this mode, when so many of us, like, I spent my entire writing life trying to make the point that a story with a viewpoint that is different from the normative white viewpoint we've had all these years, that story does not disrupt anything. It simply adds to a conversation. Obviously, now, we seem unable to have that conversation. But I mean, I think this is part of a much, much larger fragmentation that's going on in the United States, and it just scares me. It really, really is terrifying to me. And it's not just the United States. It's creeping into every other place. India is torn apart. I think when you have a majority of people who somehow begin to cast themselves as victims, you've got a problem. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, I agree. Are there book bans or challenges in India as well right now? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Oh, my God, yeah. Oh, all the time, all the time. Movies! It’s just, yeah. There’s not even, I don’t think there’s really a free press anymore. Journalists are threatened all the time there, journalists have been killed. We’ve been heading that way for a long time. I think it's another issue of, you know, not wanting to face up to history. Not wanting to look at the past and think about how one can move on from it. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; What do you think people are afraid of? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think we're all in our corners right now. Everybody's afraid of, we're disinclined to talk to people who disagree with us. And I mean truth be told, some of the people, their extremism has been given a place. So, when you, when you are starting to say, and this is certainly happening in the US, where you start to, say, you cast doubt on the process that allows you to go into government. Then what's left? Right? And when you when you place people in the system who are then willing to embrace falsehoods, then you've got a real problem. And then book banning just becomes part of an assault on anybody who thinks differently. Book banning becomes a part of assault on women's rights, on women's autonomy over their bodies; it just becomes part of this whole other thing that’s going on. And I think part of the problem is that over the years we didn’t see that bigger picture. Now, here we are. We're in the middle of it. And now what do we do? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I've always said children's books are, writing children's books is a political act. Writing anything is a political act. We are all part of systems. We live within those systems. And so, whatever we say to kids is also part of that. We should just be aware of it. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, for sure. I agree. Does the political climate impact the things you write about? So, you talked about not being overtly activist with your stories, but are the things that are going on now, inspiring certain stories in your mind. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Very much so, very much so. I think writers reflect the spaces they live in. And so, I've got a follow up to &lt;em&gt;Monsoon&lt;/em&gt; that has just been accepted and it will be about climate change and its impact on mangoes. So, the story will be about a child whose family grow mangoes. And the kids are worried about the tree because there's been, you know, shifts in the weather, unseasonal rain and then cold when it shouldn’t be, sudden heat and dry when it shouldn’t be. And what’s that going to do to the tree and to the mangoes? So, yeah. How can it not, right? I mean, the sequel to &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way! Out of the Way!&lt;/em&gt; is a picturebook called &lt;em&gt;Look! Look!&lt;/em&gt;, and it is also about water, and it’s in many ways a sort of mirror image to &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way! Out of the Way!&lt;/em&gt; It talks about a girl finding rocks in a field and then digging down, and they uncover a historic construction, and then they clean it up, and then the rain falls. And so, it is also very much of the time. And it you can't not do that. You have to respond to what you see happening around you. I have a dystopian, I think it will be, I don't know what it's gonna be, middle grade, YA, something. And it is a dystopian verse novel, and it's kind of struggling to express itself, and I think there will be some things happening there, that it will be post a major climate crisis in a near, not-so-far future, with kids who are picking up the pieces and living in the ruins of buildings like perhaps the Library of Congress, so we'll see where that goes. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; How do you walk the line between hope and fear? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Oh, God! Well, I kind of bounce from one to the other. You have to, right? I mean, there are days when I think this is all, it's just all going downhill. There's no hope for anything. Why am I even bothering? But then there are days when I think well, there are children in the world, and what is to happen to them? You can't stop. You have to keep putting one foot in front of the other because there are kids, and they didn't create this. So, how can you not. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, exactly. How much negative or fearful content are you comfortable putting in a book for children, without it being overboard? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah. Well, you don't know until you start writing. You know my work so far has been for younger children and I have not gone towards overly scary. I tend to not write, you know, horror. It's not me. But I think I would feel interested, I’d be very interested to see what a fantasy story would turn out to be in my hands. I mean, that’s something I’m really curious about, and I’d like to play with. And then I think I might go to some scarier places with that. I think that this dystopian one certainly is heading there. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; You’ve mentioned in another interview that if you had to pick one book of yours that you would fight to keep in print, you would chose &lt;em&gt;The Broken Tusk&lt;/em&gt;? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Ah, right. &lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; I’m wondering, if you— &lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; [Laughs] That might have changed since then. Can I pick two books? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; Yeah, yeah! Well, I'm wondering specifically which picturebook of yours you would fight to keep in print. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; Ahh. I think, &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way&lt;/em&gt;. Maybe. It just feels like a very complete story for me. And it was also, I think, you know, I think I leaned for years towards thinking. Oh, &lt;em&gt;The Broken Tusk&lt;/em&gt; was like my formative book. That was the book that taught me how to write. Well, I think in a real way &lt;em&gt;Out of the Way&lt;/em&gt; taught me about writing a picturebook &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; way. Taught me to say I can, I can look past, I can ignore, I can override concerns about quietness and lack of plot, and I can do this the way I want to, and it will still be okay. So, it shaped me as a writer. &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Sabrina Beaton&lt;/strong&gt; What main message does it offer to readers? &#13;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&#13;
&lt;strong&gt;Uma Krishnaswami&lt;/strong&gt; I think that you can push through. You can survive. And to me, that's a very important message. It's even more important today than it was in 2012 when that book came out.</text>
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                <text>For this interview, I spoke with author Uma Krishnaswami. Uma has been publishing for 37 years but she has been a lifelong writer. Growing up in India and then moving first to the United States and then Canada, Uma noticed the lack of multicultural children’s literature and set out to fix this through her own writing. In this interview we discussed picturebooks, activism in children’s books, and censorship. Uma also describes a time when one of her own books was challenged. A main takeaway from this interview is that children’s stories must be honest and neither censored nor forced. “Children’s literature is fearless,” Uma states; "there has always been a strain of activism in children's books." That said, Uma also cautions about writers pushing their own agenda on children. Authors must follow the logic of the story, rather than their feelings about a situation. At the same time, Uma also notes that every writer reflects the space they’re in and every book will carry an implicit political message. Uma ends by discussing the challenges of navigating a tense political climate while continuing to offer hope to future generations. &#13;
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              <text>mp3, 36 min 33 s</text>
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              <text>ASHLEY:&#13;
Singing Pebble Books is a local, independent bookstore located in Ottawa, Ontario.It specializes in books on spirituality and personal growth, and boasts a large selection of children’s literature. I was joined by Sam and Laura to discuss their experiences as booksellers. If you could please introduce yourselves and tell us a little about your role and experiences as booksellers&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
I'm Laura, I've been working here at singing Pebble for the past 10 years or so. Before that, I owned my own bookstore for 18 years. So I've been in the book selling world for quite a long time. And I'm here working almost full-time hours. I handle doing the ordering of the backlist, which is the titles that maintain the regular inventory and some of the front list as well.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah, my name is Sam. I have been working here at Singing Pebble for just about a year now. And prior to that, I worked at a large chain bookstore for just about five years. Specializing in mostly the kids department at that bookstore, doing story times, trying to curate collections that were specific to the demographic that we dealt with.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Perfect. Thank you. So we'll start off: what is your focus as a bookstore? If you could tell us a little bit about your philosophy as booksellers.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Well Singing Pebble is like a mind-body kind of bookstore. And that's what we specialize in. And I think Sam, you can agree with me or not, but I think any good, Indie bookstore, you know, has a theme and sticks to it sort of thing. So either they’re children's book sellers, or whatever, I would say that that is the core of the store of matters of the spirit. But we also sell a huge range of bestsellers and fiction, and gifts, and all of that kind of thing. So, in this very competitive book industry you want to have all the best sellers, you want to have a great sidelines. So that's sort of the direction this store is going.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
I agree. And our children's book selection definitely reflects that. Coming from a large chain bookstore coming to Singing Pebble, I noticed a lot of the books have a focus on mindfulness well-being, diversity and inclusion emotions as well. We have a really great selection of emotional regulation books for kids. So that was something that I noticed as a difference.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Having worked at both an Indie bookstore and a big chain bookstore, could you describe to differences and approach when you're recommending books, for instance.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
There are so many differences. I think the biggest difference is the ability to take the time and really get to know the customer that you are looking after and specifically, what they're looking for. Working here at an indie bookstore, ee have the ability to look at stock at the publishers as well as other Indie bookstores in the city to see. Oh, like I know you would really like this book. However, we don't have it right now. Let's see how long it would take to order it because you need it for a gift or whatever. Whereas looking at the large chain, we could, in theory, look at another store's stock, but that's not always accurate and we could not reserve it in any way, shape or form. Sp I think the biggest difference is it's more personable here. And you have the time to really perform better customer service. Whereas at the chain it was more rushed quantity over quality of customer service. So getting through as many people as possible as quickly as possible.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Did you find that the big chains you end up with essentially faceless consumers? &#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Definitely. A lot of it ends up being I just like scanning a card, for example, or you know, filling an online order. But now never actually seeing the person because then the next person takes over. It was almost like machine work, honestly, and just working on like a factory line almost, but all robots because you know, you do your one task and then it moves on to the next person who does the next task Etc. So you get less of that face-to-face time with the customers. Whereas here you do it all. &#13;
&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
The things that was going through my mind, as you were saying that though? Is that here for us, books are a very personal thing. We see them as tools to transform your life and that includes kids having their lives transformed in some way whether it's because they're seen in the book or because it changes the way they think about the world, whatever, that is. And so that's how we see every book that comes in here. That's how we handle it. And the big change though. It strikes me is that these are products that they move around and the publisher has paid premium dollar for that product to placed at eye level—sort of the way they do in the grocery store with sugary cereals for children. So, these are just sugary books or toys or whatever that are placed in eye level for, you know. So it's just, it's just a different Thing. What I always say the difference is that we're here handling thoughts and ideas, our own. And we're hoping to develop that in the customers that come in and then we're even ordering books, like, not with who we hope is going to come in. Like, who we hope is going to see this book. That's a whole different thing than just moving products around in a warehouse, on a computer screen.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Like, Displays and stuff. That was all. Pre-thought out by someone at home, office, whatever, it wasn't the staff, curating. Oh, we know we have like people coming in from this Elementary School. For example, there was an ESL School in the area. And we just felt we couldn't match up to what they needed because we didn't get the stock. We didn't get the display space to be able to provide for them really, we had no ability to order things towards the end of my time there. Whereas here it's just like I can go through the Publisher's list so I can hand-pick things. I think we do a good job of staying on top of like, you know, National blank month and things like that.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah like curating the inventory to what? Like what we see happening in the world to each of us as booksellers in the store like what's important to one of us. And that's what we bring to the table and, like any great. Indie bookstore who go in there. You should be able to see in the books, who works there, what their passions are, you know?&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Like for right now. July is Disability Pride Month and it's a learning opportunity for our community as well because you have people that come in they're like, “Oh I didn't know it was Disability Pride Month,” and so you're not only learning from the books but you're learning from the store too and being able to curate those kind of displays. But also just have a conversation with someone And not feel like you're rushed because You know, you gotta get things down the line essentially before you're watching for shrinkage or whatever.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Or like, you know, there's two people working in a space, that's 40, 000 square feet. You know, this store is about 2500 square feet. There's always two of us. Sometimes three of us here. &#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah, there's three of us working right now. There's probably three of them working at the store that I used to work at, at the &#13;
same time.&#13;
&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Get the sense that a big chain is more like a standard retail and less like an actual book selling job.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Absolutely. Yeah. It's definitely got, like, how do I say this? It's all profit based, rather than you know, benefiting the customer. It's more so about shrinkage, and performance quote-unquote than it is about getting books into the hands of people that need and want them.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Did you find there were any restrictions at the big chains? &#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Where do I start? Like I mentioned earlier, we could not order anything in. So if for example somebody asked me for a recommendation and I thought, oh yeah, like this book I know you would love it. It sounds right up your alley. It sounds exactly what you're looking for. We don't have it in stock. And then that would be kind of the end of the conversation. Be like you have to order it online.  And then if someone was like, “Well I don't shop online. I don't I don't know how to do that,” or “I don't have a computer at home,” etc. etc. It's like okay, well, sucks to suck. That's important for lack of a better word. It was just a lot of dead ends there. Whereas here, we try to problem solve and we try to Find things, right? Or find Solutions and take the time to do that.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Did you find there were any content restrictions to things that you're allowed to recommend or maybe implicitly restricted?&#13;
&#13;
Speaker 3   11:33&#13;
Not deliberately, I would say, a latent effect of not having the ability to order things in restricts, how much you can recommend in the store level. For example, if I Had a kid that was, you know, like 12 years old and they're thinking that they might be queer. And they're asking for queer content in books, and if I didn't have anything, What do I do for that kid, right? Um, whereas here, I'm ordering my brain Center to be, to be honest. Well, that goes back to what I was saying. Knowing&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
You know, like a Bookstore were, you know, reflects the diversity of the people who are here their diversity in their own. Personal being but also in the diversity of the reading of their interests or even of their of their knowledge, you know? And, I think, uh, I think what happens sometimes in big chains is everything just gets kind of diluted and they can't uh, Evil for the staff. They don't even have the time to figure out what that parent or kid. Like in terms of children's books selling, you know, parents come in and say My kid just came out. Do you have any books? Well, you know It's you do or you don't there, whereas here, it's like we usually do and if we don't we're gonna figure that out,&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
You have a big chain kind of function as a general store for a broad audience and it's as broad as it could possibly be.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Yeah. So we talked a lot about ordering—could you go through the purchasing process a bit more in depth? Specifically, how do you discover lesser publicized books?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
The book selling Industry is notoriously complicated. And the reason it's complicated is because of copyright. So when somebody publishes something with a publisher, it's copyright is protected and then the distribution rights for that are protected. So that makes it complicated. So at any given time most bookstores are dealing with upwards of To 150 different suppliers. So, to know what's out? There is always the big question. Most Publishers are represented by reps who come and Present the list to you. And again, like anything, they bring their slant to it, you know, the market influences, what selling, what isn't, you know, all all of those sorts of things.&#13;
&#13;
I come from a background a long time ago, where books by queer authors, even by women, by women of color, were we had to search, you know, high and low to find those offers those, that was our, you know, that was our mission. If you will to present those Authors to people because we believed in them and they weren't getting publicity anywhere else. So, that's, you know, but the nuts and bolts of it is. It's just that it's complicated in a lot of these small little Publishers, you know, that publish like indigenous kids like that old shelf that we're looking at right there. It's all indigenous kids books and those are from all these tiny little presses that are represented by one big press and, you know, so we get catalogs over on their websites. We do it by Word of Mouth. We see things on, you know, through social Media authors some sales reach out to us. So it’s very dynamic. It isn't like head office saying here's the books that you're selling and there we go.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah. You're looking at home head office. This is it.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah. So we do everything from ordering to washing the windows to, you know.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah. Um, you mentioned social media. Yeah. And it's very Community Based. We, we're very lucky to have a really supportive and strong Community. And it's really interesting like you have regular customers that have been coming to Laura for years that ask us to get these books for them and then it's like I go “Well, what is that?” Like, I get you get to talk to people about it and you get to Learn more like, not just from like I'm the expert and I'm going to tell you, but you get to converse with people and have that feedback as well.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
And then that's a really good point because also, I think a great Indie bookstore also reflects its great customers. So, some of our best titles, we get from our customers who have special order things, you know, and then it's like, oh, you know, when I'm ordering, oh, look at that. That looks really good. I'll order a couple from the store. And and again that's how we build these things. Somebody comes in looking for a book about a child who's grieving and we're able to say, oh, hey, We just had somebody order. These books and we ordered a couple of them as well and then there we go. That conversation unfolds that way.&#13;
&#13;
Speaker 1   17:19&#13;
you notice the language of publicity change between smaller presess and bigger presses? From publishers, I know they send out sort of a marketing plan, for instance.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Do you find that there's a language difference between how they are essentially selling their books, to the bookstores?&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
There’s definitely a like technological difference because either you'll get a paper newsletter or you'll get a very interesting website that you don't really know how to navigate.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah. So a lot of those little houses, they don't have the same resources. So, gosh, you know, there's some of them are using social media tools to really reach out directly to their customers. And then their customers are coming to us as they do a really good job and then others that they're just trying to keep their heads above water. They get their grants to publish their books, but that's basically as far as they can get and they're publishing these great books. So I always like to try and find the mix of those things, you know. It's really changed over time. I have to say that as well. In terms of how authors themselves even are able to reach out in a fast efficient way, like, either through a big email or through social media in some way to promote their books. And, you know, even if they're published with a pretty big house. There's so many books published that if you publish, if you buy something, you've got to be out there. Pedaling your bike as hard as you can to sell it.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
So like one of the bigger houses—Penguin Random House—they are constantly uploading things on their website called the Read Down and it will be several lists, anywhere from like kids books to like classic literature to political things, that are in the news right now and they do a great job of creating those lists. And connecting with social media. So if you really liked that new Taylor Swift album, then you're going to love all these books. &#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Totally like then we get to order what we think is going to sell for us, but also connected to those things, and it's huge. Like for us this little store to keep up with all of that is huge. Like it's, we could I think for me, I've I've let go of the idea of trying to keep up. Well, first of all, we don't have the space. Like, we barely, we barely have the space as it is. I don't know what we would do if we actually were able to keep up. But then there's always that worry for me that I've missed some great book but you know, we find them, they find us.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Shelf space is something that I've had discussions with just myself as well because I've had work published with a small press and trying to get that into Indie bookstores is actually quite difficult also for that reason shelf space is small and things get returned.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
It is, yeah, you know, costly, right to order from, it's a gamble to order something. Yes.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Well, so shipping costs are also a thing.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Totally. Paper’s expensive. Gina and I were talking about this the other day because sometimes people will say, “Oh my gosh. Books are so expensive!” And I'm sort of like “Really?” Really, like because you could read this and it could change your life and it's what 45 bucks say for a new hardcover, whatever. Like, for something that could change your life. I feel like that's a great.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
It’s an investment, right? And then you can lend it to someone. It's not like you consume it once and you're done with it, right?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah, yeah.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
You've got it. You've got the author that writes it. You've got the editors. You've got to pay. You've got the paper. You need to pay for you. Have the binding you need to pay for you have the book sellers so we matter too.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
What percentage of books that you order are from smaller Indie presses?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
That's a tricky question to answer, because a lot of the smaller Indie presses are represented by big Distributors. So for example, a lot of small indigenous author presses are represented by the University of Toronto presss. And if we will return, and we would return them to UTP like that. Like so not an easy question to answer but what I would say is when we are trying to make decisions we're trying to prioritize, you know? So it's like Robert Munsch or some author, maybe you know that no one's ever heard of that's published some cool books with some really busy active, little kids in it that are look different sound different. We're gonna go with the latter because everybody's doing Robert Musch not to knock Robert Musch, but you know what I mean? Like, so we're trying to curate interesting books that aren't just about, you know, written by old white guys. They've had their place on the shelves.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
You're definitely not going to find all of the books here that you're not going to find them all. At those chain stores, you're not going to find them at just a regular retailer. And I think that's what makes Indie book selling special. &#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah, again that, that Personal Touch. In the truth of the matter too, though it's always trying to find that balance because the difficulty is that if all you sold was small little presses and honestly, I don't think he could make a goal of it. Like, so we need those sales of those big, blockbuster books, so that we can sell that. That's my goal as a Bookseller is sell all the big's best sellers, so that we have the cash flow so that we can bring in small, interesting Publishers and authors. So it's just trying to find that balance. It's like always trying. You know you're always laughing and we have so much stock you know go yeah. Yeah. We're only trying to order what sells that's the whole idea.&#13;
&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
So for this class we are specifically looking at banned and challenged books, as there's been, an increase in attacks that targeted at libraries and bookstores, demanding that certain books n be available to the public. If you could tell us a little bit about what difficulties you face, when ordering books in that respect? Have you had anyone come in and try to challenge?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Well. For me, I come from a background of books being banned, but I'm talking about 30 years ago. And, What it feels like now, is that? Our customer base. When a book has been banned and there have been a certain amount of publicity about that. Our customer base are often quite interested in that book. And I used to always say to my kids, a sign of a great book is that it's been banned. So you know, And we often do banned book displays and that kind of thing. I don't we haven't had we've certainly had conversations with people, I would say sometimes maybe people have even been uncomfortable. But no, not really. And if anything, I feel like especially now like People are so much more open-hearted than they used to be. &#13;
&#13;
I remember working in a bookstore where we had like a lesbian fiction section, and there were people that came in being outright hostile, like, I mean, called the police hostile. And it could be really scary or boxes of books stuck at the border because they wouldn't let them into Canada. And they were stuck there and the legalities of everything, so we would have to abandon the order and we still had to pay for them but we couldn't get them over the border like that kind of thing. Or ordering books for other bookstores, like Glad Day in Toronto and whose books were being deliberately targeted at the border. Their boxes were being opened and their stock was being damaged, you know, and their bookstores were being firebombed. I mean, the written word is a very, very powerful thing, and people do get really threatened. The great thing about Singing Pebble Books is that, that's not an atmosphere that we work in, and I feel like our customers, even if they might be uncomfortable, have not said to us, “I'm not coming back. I don't like this” or worse, you know?&#13;
&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
We're, we're very fortunate to have such kind and patient clientele I would say. And I think that comes with, you know, being a mind-body-spirit based bookstore. However, we're also in a smaller community of Ottawa as well, so, we do get that patience, we do get that kindness for small business. Yes, we're on a street full of small businesses. There's that compassion there and I noticed, especially—and Laura can speak to this—but the transition between me working at a large chain bookstore to working here, you just saw me be so much more relaxed and so less tense and afraid to talk to people honestly. &#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Were people more willing to challenge you as a basically a minimum wage retail worker at the big chains?&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah, yeah. Um, trying to put this concisely, whether it was a display or decorations or anything to do with, for example, LGBTQ+ Pride, we did have the people occasionally come in and say like, “Why don't you have straight pride? Why don't you have this? Why don't you have that? Where's the space for this?” And it's just like okay well we're celebrating this right now, right?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
And in that, you know, and and I think if that happened here, I think that there's more of an atmosphere of support amongst us. So you first of all, in that big chain store of 40 000, somewhat square feet, you're there by yourself. Literally. Whereas here, it's smaller, it's not that there would be a few of us, maybe having that conversation, and who knows? It might not go well or it might go well, or the person might have their mind, changed, or whatever it is, or we might just to agree to disagree. That's a good thing in a way.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Or you'll have, like another customer chime in and be like, yeah, let's go, let's go, we're done.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
You know, the thing too, for me it's more around, how do we censor ourselves? Or how do we bring our bias where we don't order something? Because we have this mindset or we, or there's been this talk, you know about that author, and do we have their books or not, or like those kinds of things, you know, which are really, it's really important and so that and then when we've had those conversations, we might agree with each other we might not. But then when our customers ask us something about it, we have thought about it. Instead of just, oh, well, head office, drop shipped that to us or head office, didn't drop ship back to us or whatever it is. And it's kind of like, you're, you know, so it's when we're, it's just more Dynamic. That's what we want. And like, and I think you're right, Sam. When you first got here was you weren't used to being asked to be dynamic in your thinking. And now suddenly it's like, “Oh right?” Like, I can bring my ideas to it and it'll be okay. Some of us will agree, some of us won't but whatever it is.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
Yeah, it’s more of a fluid thing. Like, you can have your understanding of the world, but then you can learn things from other people. Not necessarily of each other, of course. But then you've got, the other authors, you've got the distributors that are sending certain folks who are pushing certain books. Then you have the customers as well and it  challenges you to rethink things rather than just be.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Totally. And I would think, too that in a lot of those small Publishers that they're having the same conversations just like ours. Why did you publish that book? Why didn't you publish that book or whatever? You know? And it's the same thing that they brought that energy to it and then hopefully when we're selecting books that energy comes through in what we've curated. If that makes sense.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Curation is a big thing that keeps coming back to me in this conversation. I know some booksellers, for instance, like to read everything that they order. Is that also something that you guys do, is it too overwhelming? Was that the case at the big chains?&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
So a really funny thing that I've noticed here is that we get a substantially like a substantial amount of advanced reader copies, whether that’s for adults through all genres, whether that's for kids. Fiction, non-fiction political books. Yoga everything. We get everything here, and sometimes we get multiple copies. There's what eight people that work here and we'll get like, two of each and it's all of a sudden like, okay, we'll have to get borrow that from you but I guess I'll take it. Um, And we also have Um, Advanced listening copies as well through Libro FM, which is amazing as well, because then you can actually listen to that picture book which sounds silly. But, you know, getting a taste of it before I order it in.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
You know, it is tricky because there is just no way on Earth we could possibly read everything. We could certainly take a pretty good look at it. And there's been lots of times where we've read things and said, “Oh my gosh, I got to order a dozen more of these,” or we've read something and said, “Oh, you know what? I think we need to return the dozen we got.” And then a conversation about that might ensue. And there is no Bookseller on Earth—honestly, who's doing that really? I can't imagine, but they're giving things a good look at and also hopefully, everybody's reading in a different area, they have their specialty and then they bring that and we can work here collaboratively together as book sellers. You know, somebody's looking for kids books, I'm gonna do first Sam, that's more her. Somebody's looking for something on Buddhism? She might defer to me. That's, you know, more my area. Like that and we work collaboratively that way and we want our customers or I certainly do, I want them to feel that collaborative energy so that they feel like they could collaborate with us and recommend something.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Recommend something. Yeah, I I know a friend of mine who worked as a Bookseller for a while too. At some point they would just have like 50 something books ongoing. Just you know, new books, constantly reading like five books at once. I just thought that was Incredible but also so much to do and they were just responsible for one section of the bookstore.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah, and that's really true because a lot of bigger stores even bigger Indie bookstores have the buyer for children's books or they have the buyer for cookbooks or whatever it is. I've never worked in a store like that. That's so big that they're separate buyers for those sections and those buyers meet with the reps and they curate it by you know and I mean that's the other thing that reps do for you. They say “Oh yeah, well this book is going to be— the author's going to be on the CBC and you know this show on that show,” like that kind of thing. So that's the nuts and bolts of it. &#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
I just keep laughing because I keep remembering the conversation fish sticker book that the rep recommended to us and we were a little confused but yeah, we'll take it. Sure. Enough sold right away. Yeah,   the collaboration is really magical thing just across, you know reps but between each other.&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Yeah and reps too—They read a lot. And again, they'll say I, you know, so this sometimes, they'll present the list and then and they and the Reps are often divided up as Well, so there's wraps for the Indies and Reps for the chains. So, the Indie reps are saying this is my, I love this book. This is the book. I'm selling this season. You know? And or they'll say, if you're only going to bring in one of these 50 children's books that are on the list, this is the one like that's and and it comes because of their passion. Generally, they've met the author, they've read the book, like all of that, so I think that that's coming out of this conversation is the how collaborative book selling is?&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Do you find that some of them are maybe more careful around certain books of certain topics?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
Not with us. Maybe they are with other book sellers, like maybe if you were presenting to say a Christian bookstore, you might be nervous about presenting a title or you might think it's all the more reason to present it. I think you know when you're a Bookseller—like a good Bookseller—you should try to be a little bit Fearless like don't don't like if there's gonna be pushback but that's a good thing actually even if it's a little bit uncomfortable at first. It's a way of saying well why are you worried about a book about a little person who's trying to figure out their gender like If you don't want to read it, just don't read it. Like what? But to have to think about that, you know, or even like books about death and grieving, well, you wasn't that long ago that nobody talked about that like You know, it's just now there's all kinds of books to help kids deal with their big feelings, you know. But was that long ago like kids on the Spectrum. Well, That hadn't been invented when I had kids. Like, it's just like, you know, and now that's something we think about that we acknowledge. So I think that that's really So that idea push back although it sounds like something that maybe is worrying. I don't see that as worrying. I think it's a way to open doors.&#13;
&#13;
SAM:&#13;
I think with us to the Reps know, we're a little quirky and we we do specialize in a lot of non-fiction as well, so they're not afraid to bring new ideas to us, whether that be in non-fiction or fiction, based writing, I think they know that we’re eclectic is the word, right?&#13;
&#13;
LAURA:&#13;
And even when we're hiring, you know, we're looking for eclectic people. That's what we want to try and bring to the table, our our, you know, experienced book sellers, who are reading, who are engaged, you know, who want to know, what's the next up and coming thing. That's what the whole industry's been doing forever. And a day is to try and figure out. You know, what's going to sound like we're we're already ordering into next January like we're, you know, Everything that's coming in the fall has already been ordered. Like we're always waiting to see what's forthcoming. And then a good bookstore always has a good mix, of brand new titles, new and exciting titles and a good solid backlist. That's that to me, that's what's supporting your store. So you always have those great, you know, you have good night Moon or whatever, kids books are sort of the, you know, that backlist that just that people are always just coming in and looking for and that Butters your bread, though. This is also about keeping the wheels on the bus room because there's no sense. If all you have are a bunch of kids books that nobody's interested in or any books in that matter.&#13;
&#13;
ASHLEY:&#13;
Once again, I’d like to thank the staff at Singing Pebble Books for their time and expertise.</text>
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    <fileContainer>
      <file fileId="306">
        <src>https://omeka.uottawa.ca/windowsandmirrors/files/original/fad82cf4ace0ca486b722c1cd4bb5a4d.jpg</src>
        <authentication>f304218f98d44fe349642c70b177de9a</authentication>
      </file>
      <file fileId="359">
        <src>https://omeka.uottawa.ca/windowsandmirrors/files/original/32f2ee092d2017b526efbc7b3cb1a05e.jpg</src>
        <authentication>3752765927ff4de951ffa6489d455abd</authentication>
      </file>
    </fileContainer>
    <itemType itemTypeId="20">
      <name>Book</name>
      <description>Books for Young Readers analyzed in this project.</description>
      <elementContainer>
        <element elementId="61">
          <name>Original Format of Book</name>
          <description/>
          <elementTextContainer>
            <elementText elementTextId="6544">
              <text>picture book</text>
            </elementText>
          </elementTextContainer>
        </element>
        <element elementId="81">
          <name>Character Type</name>
          <description/>
          <elementTextContainer>
            <elementText elementTextId="6588">
              <text>human (primary character)</text>
            </elementText>
            <elementText elementTextId="6589">
              <text>human (secondary characters)</text>
            </elementText>
          </elementTextContainer>
        </element>
        <element elementId="79">
          <name>Race/Ethnicity</name>
          <description/>
          <elementTextContainer>
            <elementText elementTextId="6590">
              <text>Indigenous (primary character)</text>
            </elementText>
            <elementText elementTextId="6591">
              <text>Indigenous (secondary characters)</text>
            </elementText>
          </elementTextContainer>
        </element>
        <element elementId="75">
          <name>Gender Identity</name>
          <description/>
          <elementTextContainer>
            <elementText elementTextId="6592">
              <text>girl/woman (primary character)</text>
            </elementText>
            <elementText elementTextId="6601">
              <text>girl/woman (secondary characters)</text>
            </elementText>
            <elementText elementTextId="6602">
              <text>boy/man (secondary characters)</text>
            </elementText>
          </elementTextContainer>
        </element>
      </elementContainer>
    </itemType>
    <elementSetContainer>
      <elementSet elementSetId="1">
        <name>Dublin Core</name>
        <description>The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, https://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.</description>
        <elementContainer>
          <element elementId="50">
            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6534">
                <text>We Are Water Protectors</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="39">
            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6535">
                <text>Lindstrom, Carole (author)</text>
              </elementText>
              <elementText elementTextId="6536">
                <text>Goade, Michaela (illustrator)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="45">
            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6537">
                <text>Roaring Brook Press (publisher)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="40">
            <name>Date</name>
            <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6538">
                <text>2020</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="38">
            <name>Coverage</name>
            <description>The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6539">
                <text>||||osm&#13;
New York, New York, United States (publisher)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="42">
            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6540">
                <text>Print book (hardcover), 40 pages, colour illustrations, 10 x 10 in.</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="51">
            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6541">
                <text>Book</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="44">
            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6542">
                <text>language: English</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="43">
            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6543">
                <text>ISBN 9781250203557</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6600">
                <text>Cover image: &lt;em&gt;We Are Water Protectors&lt;/em&gt;. &lt;em&gt;Amazon.ca&lt;/em&gt;, 2020, &lt;a href="https://www.amazon.ca/Are-Water-Protectors-Carole-Lindstrom/dp/1250203554"&gt;https://www.amazon.ca/Are-Water-Protectors-Carole-Lindstrom/dp/1250203554&lt;/a&gt;. Accessed 3 July 2024.</text>
              </elementText>
              <elementText elementTextId="6725">
                <text>Hailey Marchand (cataloguer, 2024)</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="41">
            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="6724">
                <text>In this Caldecott Medal-winning picturebook, a young Indigenous girl must rally her community to defend the Earth's water, the most sacred medicine of all, against a black snake that threatens to destroy the land.</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
        </elementContainer>
      </elementSet>
    </elementSetContainer>
    <tagContainer>
      <tag tagId="57">
        <name>boy/man (secondary characters)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="44">
        <name>girl/woman (primary character)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="56">
        <name>girl/woman (secondary characters)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="45">
        <name>human (primary character)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="46">
        <name>human (secondary characters)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="97">
        <name>Indigenous (primary character)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="191">
        <name>Indigenous (secondary characters)</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="14">
        <name>language: English</name>
      </tag>
      <tag tagId="65">
        <name>picture book</name>
      </tag>
    </tagContainer>
  </item>
</itemContainer>
