Conversation with Carlos Zapata

[Mia – 0m 00s]  

Thank you so much, Carlos, for joining Zoé and I for this interview. We appreciate your participation. Just for the record, as we have stated previously, you do not need to answer any questions for whatever reason, and we will not follow up. And so, without further ado, thank you for participating. 

[Carlos – 0m 17s]  

Thank you! And I apologize, because I have braces not long ago, and so I- I sound funny. 

[Mia – 0m 23s]  

All good, all good. (…) [All participants briefly laugh.] All right, I’ll be uh (…) uh giving out the questions in odd numbers – Zoé the even numbers [on the questions sheet given to the participant] like we said, so let’s get started off with the first question. And uh, what is your country of origin? 

[Carlos – 0m 36s]  

Columbia. I was born and raised in Columbia – so South America, yes.  

[Mia – 0m 44s] 

Great! 

[Zoé – 0m 45s]  

Uh – Question number two [#2] what brought you to Ottawa? 

[Carlos – 0m 48s] 

So – uhm – when I decided to – uhm – go to – uhm – When I finished my bachelor’s, I was- I was thinking about the possibilities, right? So, either I stay in Montreal or I go to Calgary – and I actually applied for multiple jobs in Calgary and Edmonton – uhm – Ottawa – uhm – and in Montreal. Then – uhm – I was actually very lucky that – uhm – I applied for – uhm – another university in Montreal – for a job at another university in Montreal – and I applied for this one, and – uhm – they both called me, but then after analyzing the possibilities and the opportunities and the quality of life and other stuff, I decided to move to Ottawa. So, I lived in Montreal for, I would say, more than ten [10] years, and then after I finished my bachelor’s – then my master’s – I decided to move to Ottawa. That was the reason, yeah. 

[Mia – 1m 57s]  

Sounds good. And do you have any family here, and do you see them often? 

[Carlos – 2m 02s] 

I do not. But I am actually very lucky, because Montreal is not actually very far, and – uhm – my family, they live very close to the urban core, so it is super easy to go from where I live – in the – uhm – I live very close to l’Hôpital Montfort [in French] – so, very close, I- I- I can take the four-seventeen [417, referring to Ontario Highway 417] right away, so I can be in Montreal in two [2] hours, and even my community, they’re close to NDG [refers to Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, a residential neighbourhood in Montreal], so the very urban core of Montreal, so I can be in the Décarie [a major highway in Montreal, Autoroute 15] in pretty much an hour and forty-five minutes [01h 45m] if I take the four-seventeen [417], so yeah. I- I go see them for – you know – I would say I go once a month, which is – which is OK, yeah. 

[Mia – 2m 49s]  

Just to – uh – Just for the “explain” part, real quick. So the family isn’t here in Ottawa, but it is here in Canada – in Montreal.  

[Carlos – 2m 55s] 

Yeah, it is, it is. So, they’re pretty much all in – I- I have family in Quebec. I have family in Ontario, and – uh – they’re very close – uhm – like, they’re mostly in Montreal and in Montreal’s South Shore. 

[Mia – 3m 10s] 

OK, yeah, thank you. 

[Zoé – 3m 12s] 

[Carlos – 3m 20s] 

No. So – uh – in Ottawa, no, but – uhm – in Montreal, I did. S, pretty much my life outside of work and university – I conducted pretty much, I- I- I would say sixty percent [60%] of my life in- in- in Spanish, and – uh – I really had the opportunity to not only connect with my community, but also to be able to practice many of our traditions. And – uh – here in Ottawa it’s a bit more challenging. The – uh – Latin American community, I would say, as strong as it is – for many reasons of course – as it is in Montreal or in Toronto, but – uh – yeah, no, I’ve (…) I’ve been a bit disconnected from my communities since I moved to Ottawa. 

[Mia & Zoé – 4m 04s] 

Mhm [in quick succession]. 

[Zoé – 4m 04s] 

Do you know – uhm – why exactly there isn’t as big of a diaspora of Latin Americans in Otta- 

[Mia – 4m 11s] 

[Cutting off Zoé] We- We’re- I- We’re not quite authorized to- 

[Zoé – 4m 13s] 

[Interjecting with Mia] OK. 

[Mia – 4m 13s] 

-by the ethics form. We- we can ask after the interview, but currently we are stuck to these questions, unfortunately. What – uh – what celebrations are most important to you, then? 

[Carlos – 4m 24s] 

We have many. [Carlos breathes a faint sigh] So the first one is that – uhm – I don’t – so – I [marked with a notable vocal fry and tone of careful deliberation] – I would start chronologically. Uhm – I would say, the first one is – uh – Petronio Álvarez – it is something that I used to enjoy – uhm – growing up in Cali – uhm – I’m not from Bogotá or Medellín, so – uhm – I actually come from Colombia’s Pacific coast – so from the West coast – uhm – we have towns in my state, which is Valle del Cauca, where the – uhm – Afro-Colombian population can go up to ninety percent [90%], and – uh – in my city, I would say – uhm – it has a very large Afro-Colombian population – like, very large – uhm – the Afro-Colombian culture is very palpable – very present – so uh – Petronio Álvarez is a festival that honors that African ancestry in our city and in our state, and – uh – so it’s been many many years that – uhm – that I haven’t been able to go – uhm – particularly because for me, August is a blackout, because I work in education, so we have to prepare for the Fall semester, and July and August, for me, super busy – it’s pretty much peak period. So, I haven’t been able to go back, and I would say one of my objectives in the future is to be able to take some time to go to Colombia – to Cali – uhm – again – and to be able to celebrate Petronio Álvarez. It is- it is great, it is – uhm – (…) an incredible festival. I highly recommend it. And the second thing is, of course, Christmas – uhm – and it is nothing about our Christian values, I-I- I’m not Christian, so I really do not care about the Christianity, or the – uhm, the uhm – religious component of Christmas. It is just about the festivities, right? So – uh – being close to home, the food, the culture, the music, so pretty much between the first week until the – uh, uhm – I would say the thirty-first [31st] of December, we celebrate almost every day. So, we get together, we eat, we share, we drink, we listen to music [Carlos thumps his open hand on the table, and his voice gains a notable liveliness], we play music sometimes. (…) So – uhm – I would say those two [2] are a – my- my- my top two [2] (…) Yeah, my top two [2]. 

[Mia – 6m 51s] 

Uhm… 

[Zoé – 6m 52s] 

Can you describe a typical day in your community? 

[Carlos – 6m 56s] 

Uhm – In Columbia, or in Canada? 

[Mia – 7m 00s] 

Let’s do both, just to be thorough with it. 

[Carlos – 7m 02s] 

Oh, OK. So – uhm – I grew up in a very working-class community. Uhm – The- the name of the neighbourhood is actually Primero de Mayo, which means “the first of May”, which is – uhm – in Canada we celebrate Labour Day in September, but in many other countries, including France or in European countries and in South America, we celebrate it the first of May. So, its name is self-explanatory. It is a very working-class community, and – uh – it was – uhm – my community had – has, still, a very vibrant – uhm – I would say, economy. So, we have a lot of restaurants – uh – family-owned restaurants. We have, also, local shops. So, something that I remember was – uhm – being able to be a part of this rich ecosystem. So, you would, you know – I was walking back from school, and I remember, you know – uhm – the local restaurants, so I would have you know – uh – like – uhm – fast food in that restaurant, or – that is something that I remember – that was pretty much my- my- my- my- my day: being part of that very rich ecosystem of local shops, restaurants, and – uhm – and- and of course the- the- the (…) It- it was like a very – uhm – [Carlos hesitates, tapping the side of his open hand on the table a few times, gesturing to try and articulate his ideas] (…) Uh – I grew up in a very densely populated space, and we were pretty much next to each other. Like, if I raised my voice a little bit, my neighbour could hear me. 

[Mia – 8m 44s] 

[Interjecting Carlos] Unlike here. [A slight chuckle from everyone] 

[Carlos – 8m 46s] 

It’s – uh – It was [Carlos gestures slightly with his hands while holding the last syllable in a vocal fry before falling silent for a second] (…) – We were very close, right? It is – I grew up in an apartment that was – eh – very small, and it was right next to – we were right next to each other, right? [Carlos repeatedly punches his left hand, palm open, with his right hand, fist closed, to emphasize the point.] So – uhm – I do remember also being part of that ecosystem of being able to listen to my neighbours, to the music they were listening to, to their conversation that they were having – uhm – If- if someone was having an issue – all of a sudden like a, you know, argument – all of a sudden, you were part of that argument because you were pretty much listening to the entire conversation of people [Carlos says this while laughing with Zoé]. So, it was – If- if there is something I remember because I grew up in that environment where, you know, we had a very rich ecosystem [Carlos lands his fist on the table] of shops and restaurants and local pubs too, and also because I grew up in a densely populated area, we were right next to each other so it was super hard not to be part of that ecosystem. Like, you were part of it even if you didn’t want to, right? And – uh – yeah, it is called Gratamira [neighbourhood in Cali] – uhm – the apartments are super nice. It was a very beautiful community, and – uh – yeah. And here, (…) – uhm – I would say it’s not the same, because, again, I moved to Ottawa, I would say four [4] years ago, so – uh – my life is not the same right now. But I could say, in Montreal, as I said before – uhm – outside of work and university, my – I- I conducted my- my- my- – like sixty per- sixty percent [60%] I- I would say, of my life, was conducted in Spanish. Uhm – My network is pretty much – uhm – South Americans: Peruvians and Colombians, mostly. And – uhm – yeah, it was, again – We somehow kept our traditions alive. So – uhm – there is something that I- I can say is, despite the challenges and, of course, the weather, and the difficulties to get the ingredients – uhm – we found – uhm – a way to cook our food, get together, listen to our music, and to continue our Colombian traditions. Uhm – Of course, it is not the same, because – uhm – they’re not from my city, so they’re mostly from the – uh, uhm – coffee belt. So – uh – Manizales, Medellín, Pereira. So, it’s where, you know, the – uh – coffee belt in Colombia which is in the middle of the country (…) kind of. So – uh – they have all their traditions, but (…) we made it work, right? We – uh – But yeah. 

[Mia – 11m 28s] 

And – uh – how do you celebrate your heritage if- if you do celebrate your heritage? 

[Carlos – 11m 36s] 

[Carlos breathes a deep sigh.] Uh – OK. This is- This is a very heavy question. Uhm- 

[Mia – 11m 40s] 

And again, you don’t need to answer if anything makes you uncomfortable if you don’t want to. 

[Carlos – 11m 43s] 

[Intersecting with Mia.] Thank you. (…) How do I celebrate? It is a very, I would say – uhm – introspective exercise. I wish I had other people from my city – particularly from my community – that I could actually talk to and listen to our music and sometimes – because if I am the only person from Colombia’s West coast, I- I have to adapt to what the diaspora does here in- in either Ottawa or Montreal. So, it is a very, I would say – uhm – individual, introspective, exercise. Sometimes, I take one hour out of my day, and I listen to my music – uhm – I don’t listen to the same music people from perhaps Bogotá or Medellín listen to (…) and – uh – so it is a very individual – uhm – introspective exercise. So that’s pretty much how I celebrate. I take, for instance, on a Saturday or a Sunday, like, one hour to listen to my music, to read something from my – uh – town, to – uhm – yeah! But- but I would say it is mostly through music. The last last time was last week – that I took, like thirty, forty-five [30-45] minutes to listen to – I – you know, it is very [Carlos snaps his fingers before initiating a reflexive pause] (…) out of the blue, y’know? Like all- Like all of a sudden, I get homesick, and I- and I always get back home – of course, metaphorically – through music. (…) [In a low, almost whispery voice] Yeah, always. Salsa music particularly, yeah. We’re the – uh – international capital of salsa music. [Everyone briefly chuckles.] So, salsa, it is very close to our heritage, to what we do, how we understand the world, and – uh – and I listen to salsa music, mostly, to get back home (…) just for a few minutes. Yeah. Yeah! 

[Zoé – 13m 47s] 

What are some values you hold dear as a member of the Latin/Caribbean community? (…) 

[Carlos – 13m 55s] 

Uhm – (…) When I was doing my- my- my- my master’s, I- I did my first master’s in political science at the university of Ottawa, (…) and something that I wanted to show is that (…) we lack many things in community – many, right? Many, many, many. I was actually doing an introspective analysis of me growing up in Colombia, and everything I had growing up was donated or second-hand, right? (…) And – uh – (…) Everything we had at home, from our bed to our dining table, to our thing, you know, in our living room – most stuff was either second-hand donated, and – uhm – we always faced – uhm – financial difficulties – uhm – which is normal in a low-income, working-class community in – uhm – low-income, working-class family in Colombia. (…) But, something that I wanted to show – uhm – in my master’s and- and also through my work – right – is that sometimes, we go back to community, and we always see the things they lack, but we never see the things that they have. And I always want to show to people that if you go to community, there is knowledge in community, there is value in community. Uh – sometimes, you see (…) many folks – uhm – they go to community and they want to impose ideas just because they think we’re dumb, that we- we lack knowledge, that we don’t have the ability to speak for ourselves. And I think something that – uhm – (…) I hold dear, is- is the respect for community. Uhm – I think (…) relationships shouldn’t be transactional. In fact, last Tuesday, I was invited to FSS [Faculty of Social Sciences building at the university of Ottawa campus] to speak in a panel conversation, [Carlos breathes in heavily] and what I told students was (…) : when you’re building your network, never do so (…) – uhm – in a way that is transactional. (…) Always aim to have reciprocal, trust-based relationships, right? In a way that you can say “I have their backs as much as they have mine.” [Carlos rhythmically taps the side of his open hand on the table after every word.] (…) And this is something that I learned from my community, and – uh – and that’s something that I also wanted to show through my master’s and through my work, you know? My thesis was – uhm – in political science was about networks of solid- solidarity during the pandemic crisis. And I wanted to show how people, despite the lack of support from government, despite all the challenges, they organized themselves to respond to those needs. Food insecurity, lack of jobs, lack of opportunities throughout the pandemic. So – uhm – I- I- I would say that’s- that’s- that’s the most important value for me. Yeah 

[Zoé – 17m 19s] 

Yeah, that’s great, I love that. Yeah.  

[Carlos – 17m 21s] 

Yeah.  

[Mia – 17m 22s] 

I feel it comes back to – uh – the questions we were- the question we were meant to ask after, but like- you know about something you would like to share about yourself or your community that you think is – uh – important for others to know – which I- I feel like you’ve already shared a lot, but if there’s something more you’d like to share – uh – (…) 

[Carlos – 17m 39s] 

[Carlos breathes in heavily] What else I can say? You know? Uh (…) – It is really incredible when- when- when you’re able to (…) – Still to this day, I would say many of the skills and competencies that allowed me to succeed at work came from community. (…) And I value that, right, and I actually appreciate that. Sometimes, we don’t see those skills and competencies as valuable (…), but I would say, many of these skills and competencies helped me get where I am today – I learned those from community, my community. And – uhm – of course – uhm – bachelor’s degree and master’s degree helped, but also those skills that I learned – uhm – from my community helped me as well. And – uh – and I would be ungrateful if- if- if- if- if-if-if I said that they- they- they didn’t help me. Yeah.  

[Zoé – 18m 54s] 

What foods do you make that remind you of home? And where to you purchase your groceries to prepare your traditional meals?  

[Carlos – 19m 02s] 

Oh! There is a – uhm – there is a store – it’s called Bienvenido – it means welcome (…) in Spanish – and I’ve been trying to (…) cook more Colombian food, particularly from my city, because, again, the challenge is that every time that I go to a Colombian restaurant – uhm – or the challenge that – maybe it is not the same, or maybe I haven’t gone to all the Colombian restaurants in Montreal and- and- and in Ottawa, but every time that I go to one, the challenge is that they serve the food that people eat in Bogotá and Medellín. (…) I don’t eat that food, right? And why? Because (…) and this is maybe – uhm – a criticism that I have, which is that if you see the population – uhm – of- of- of the Colombian- the Colombian diaspora, right, you would see that finding a black Colombian is incredibly hard. And finding people from my town, or finding people from Colombia’s West coast, even though that area of Colombia is disproportionally affected by conflict, by poverty, by – uhm – violence – you don’t see them here. Right? Even though they’re equally affected or even more than Medellín, Pereira – uhm – like the cities in the Coffee Belt, or- or- or Bogotá, but most people you see – that the Colombian diaspora living here – most people come from those cities, right? You don’t- you don’t see many Caleño [demonym for the residents of Cali, Colombia] here, right? You don’t see many people from Palmira; you don’t see many people from Buenaventura – let alone – uhm – from Cauca or- or- or Nariño, or Garzón, right? So the challenge that I have is that, every time that I go to a Colombian restaurant, or every time I go to a – uhm – Latino/Latin-American – uhm- uhm – restaurant, or – uhm – store, it is very hard for me to get the ingredients that I need to cook the food that I actually eat back home (…) right? So, (…) again, our- our city is deeply influenced by the African diaspora in Colombia (…) – like Afro-Colombian. So, that’s not the food I eat. So one of the solutions that I encountered – uhm – was going to Haitian or Jamaican restaurants, because that’s the food I eat! Right? So – uh – it is a way to eat something that is similar to what I eat – uh – back- back home, but now, it is- it is very complex, because I don’t have the ingredients – uhm – if I go to a restaurant, it is very hard to order what I eat, so – uhm – I am trying, but it is always very simple recipes. Like, super simple, like pandebono and those things, but it is super simple – things that you bake, right? 

[Mia – 22m 03s] 

Hang on. I- I- I know I’m going to steal your thunder, Zoé – you can take the next question real quick – but just because you kind of went onto that, can you give us more examples of food that remind you of home, and – uh – because you told us where you purchase them, like in the next question, and the groceries, but, like, tell us a bit more about the means and stuff! [Zoé and Carlos let out laughs.] 

[Carlos – 22m 17s] 

[Carlos enthusiastically slaps his palm against the table.] It’s been- it’s been years, like, I- I haven’t had a chontaduro, like, in years, you know? And- and- and this is something that people from Cali would appreciate very much. 

[Mia – 22m 29s] 

[Interupting] Sorry, what’s a chontaduro [mispronounced] [laughs nervously but amicably]? 

[Carlos – 22m 30s] 

Ah! Chontaduro is – I don’t even know what it is! It- it- it is like – uhm, uhm, uhm – like a (…) nut? I-it is – I don’t even know if it’s a fruit. It should be a fruit. No, it’s not a vegetable, for sure, but it is- it is a fruit. So – uhm – you actually have to cook it because it is very hard. So you actually have to cook it, like, boil it for hours, like I don’t know for how long, but long, right? I think it is actually overnight. [Carlos slams his fist against the table in a show of enthusiasm.] So – uhm- 

[Mia – 23m 00s] 

Oh, sorry, just watch out not to tap the table. The audio peaks when you do that.  

[Carlos – 23m 05s] 

Sorry. So, chontaduro is something that – uhm – it is a fruit that you have to boil. And then, what you do is that, when it is soft, you peel it off, and then you add honey and salt (…). So it is sweet and sour, and it is very delicious. And, again, chontaduro, it is – uhm, uhm – from the – uhm – Afro-Colombian – uhm – cuisine. And chontaduro, it is something that we enjoy in Cali very much. Cholado. Cholado it is a – uhm – a desert, I- I would say, and it comes in multiple forms. It is- it is pretty much a – hm – a kind of ice cream, and we add fruits, and – uh – and- and- and cookies, and it is quite delicious.  

[Zoé – 24m 03s] 

I was going to say, it sounds delicious, yeah. [Zoé lets out a lighthearted laugh.] 

[Carlos – 24m 06s] 

It is good. It sounds delicious. Uhm – also sancocho (…) – uhm – it is soup – uhm – it is a chicken soup, pretty much, but it is nothing, like, not kind of the Chinese? It’s very different. I highly recommend you Google-it after this. Uhm – yeah, pandebono – uh – what else? El aplastado! El aplastado is like – kind of like – uhm – a – uh – [Carlos chuckles nervously] (…). It’s like, kind of, hamburger. But, we – uhm – use kind of a panini machine, and then we flatten the hamburger, and it is different. Salchipapa – uhm – it is – salchipapa means – uh – salchicha means – uhm – sausage, and papa means potato, so it is pretty much a potato and a sausage, and we cut it in cubes, and then we mix it up with whatever. From – uhm – pork, chicken, beef. So, let’s imagine a poutine, but on steroids, right? And – uh – yeah, that’s – yeah. And it’s been ages, to be truly honest. But- but- but- but again, one of the main challenges is that – uhm – we don’t have that many people from my region here, right, because those folks that were allowed to get in, and- and- and they could stay – they came from other cities. Mostly from the big cities, right? (…) Not from where I come from.  

[Zoé – 25m 34s] 

Yeah. In one of my previous projects, we had also talked about – uhm – like, food insecurity, and how they don’t have like- 

[Carlos – 25m 42s] 

[Interjecting] Cultura, yeah, grocery.  

[Zoé – 25m 43s] 

you have to- you have to go to different, like, groceries to find ingredients for your recipe, and yeah- 

[Carlos – 25m 46s] 

[Interjecting] If you find, right? And even if – yeah.  

[Zoé – 25m 47s] 

I found that super interesting.  

[Mia – 25m 51s] 

[Directed to Zoé] I’ll let you take the next one, since I stole yours. I- 

[Zoé – 25m 54s] 

[Zoé laughs] No, it’s ok! [Directed at Carlos] How likely would you and your family be to use the website we are creating for uploading your stories, and how would you use it? We would like to better serve the community, so any suggestions from you about access as well as what we should be (…) posting – uh – would be greatly appreciated.  

[Carlos – 26m 13s] 

You know, to me – uhm – (…) story-telling matters for multiple reasons. S o the first thing is that if you analyze – uhm – (…) I really want to be able to encourage – uhm – new Colombians, or, like, the first- second [1st-2nd] generation of Colombians. Uhm – we don’t see many working in higher education, we don’t see many working as managers, supervisors, and – uhm – and of course, this is a – uhm – structural issue, that it is not only affecting the Colombian diaspora, but also many other diasporas still, and ethnic minorities, and equity-deserving, and equity-denied folks across the country. But, one of my- my- my objectives is to be able to, through my own story-telling and through other story-telling, right, like- like- like other folks telling their story, to be able to show Colombians that we’re here, that – uh – we’re powerful, that – uhm – we can, you know, get to where we want to be, and – uhm – and yeah. Through story-telling, be able to tell other folks from Colombia that they’re not alone, that we also went through the same challenges, that – uhm – that – uhm – be able to strengthen our diaspora, and to support each other a little bit more, because I think – uhm – right now, we’re not exactly as unified as I- as I wish we were, and I think it is important to create than sense of unity, and I think it is through story-telling that we’re going to be able to create that unity – that kind of narrative, right? It is through our storytelling that we’re going to start analyzing that: “Oh! That person went through the same experience I did.” Right? So, it is through that storytelling that we’re going to be able to identify – “Oh, like, we- we’re- we’re- we’re so close in- in- in- in our experience, in- in- in- in- in- in the things that we have to face.” Right? So, I think those platforms are really important to get- to capture [Carlos placed his palm on the table in a sudden motion] and then share those – uhm – stories so people do not feel alone, people feel like they have a network that they can – you know, like, I really hope that in the future, like, a Latin-American student from uOttawa sees me on that platform, and then contacts me on LinkedIn, and asks for professional advice, and asks, you know – uhm – “What I can [sic.] do with my diploma?” And I will be more than happy to support – uhm – that- that- that person. But I think my first objective is – it is through storytelling that we’re able to relate to each other (…). And the second one is to make our diaspora, I would say, stronger, and- and- and- and- and unified. (…) 

[Mia – 28m 57s] 

Well, I’ll close it off with this last question – uh. (…) If you have any other comments or concerns – uh – please let us know, but otherwise – uh – yeah, no – uh. 

[Carlos – 29m 08s] 

No, yeah – uh – thank you so much. Like, I like storytelling. Uh – I- I- I think – uhm – quantitative stuff matters, but also qualitative stuff matters, right? And I think storytelling is great. It really shows people that we’re all humans, right? Sometimes, people see maybe five percent [5%] of what we go through, and it is through storytelling that we’re able to share our challenges, how we overcame those challenges, how we feel, how sometimes we all feel, so – uh – yeah, it is- it is really great. Thank you. I appreciate it. 

[Mia – 29m 42s] 

No, thank you for participating, and – uh – we really appreciate it, so we’ll – uh – end the interview with your name, quick.  

[Carlos – 29m 47s] 

Carlos Zapata. 

[Mia – 29m 49s] 

Carlos Zapata, Mia Lavergne as interviewer, and- 

[Zoé – 29m 52s] 

Zoé Asselin as second interviewer. 

[Mia – 29m 56s] 

Alright, thank you so much, that concludes it for today, thank you- [A slight thud is heard as the microphone mutes itself.]